The ring was only as powerful as its owner

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Recall that the ring was only as powerful as its bearer "giving power according to their stature" as Gandalf (approx.) put it. So too it's pull less powerful. When no one wore it (at the bottom of the Anduin), it couldn't draw Sauron. Gollum.. couldn't even get him out of the mountains. Bilbo could wear it twice a week without notice. Sam wore it right on the border of Mordor and drew less attention than Frodo on Amon Hen. That's why the plan worked. If Gandalf or Aragorn had carried it to Orodruin, they wouldn't've made it across the Anduin.

[Sharkû]

I think that - within the system of the values and ethics portrayed in LOTR - it may be more probable that the call, i.e. the evil influence of the Ring on its bearer, is less defined by the actual power of the bearer, but more by the will to power, the delusions of grandeur the current bearer has.
To Bilbo and Gollum, the Ring did not do much harm (OK, to Gollum, yes, but he already was frankly said a freak and had it for centuries) -- that is because Bilbo did not even know about the Ring's great power, and his only wishes were to lead his quiet comfortable hobbit life and disappear every now and then from uninvited guests. The Ring had few intents of power which it could amplify in its bearer. For Gollum, it is quite the same, his thinking mainly concentrated on fish and nice dark places. Only later, when the Ring is right next to him and after he already got to know that it was a very powerful item, did he get images of a great Gollum who would make everybody pay.
Boromir, on the other hand, would have used the Ring very much, we can assume; to throw down Mordor, then all other enemies of Gondor, then maybe some other free peoples, and install a Gondorian empire over Middle-Earth (and farther? Ar-Pharazôn had similar ideas... could the Ring have had something to do with that?). Such goals as Boromir's likely were a much more fertile field for the corrupting influence of the Ring.
Certainly, Boromir was also more powerful than Frodo or Gollum; or Sam, but he already got delusions of a garden-ization of the world when he first wore it. But that may just be a coincidence, or the case that the powerful always seek more might still.

[Elenhin]

When the Ring was lying on the bottom of Anduin it couldn't attract Sauron because Sauron was still recovering from his loss in the end of the Second Age. He wasn't in his full power yet, and he didn't want to risk exposing himself by sending search parties. Anyway, he didn't know that the Ring was still in existence and he might thought that the strange feeling of an object of power nearby was because of something else.

I don't know about Frodo's and Sam's relative power.. they were both hobbits, and I don't think that their relative difference of power was so great. I believe that Frodo was detected so easily on Amon Hen because he wore the Ring on the Seat of Seeing. It's easy for me to imagine that while the Seat enhanced the vision of the one sitting on it, it also made him easier to see by other "magical" means, such as Sauron's palantir. Note also that Gandalf was aware of Frodo's presence on the Seat as well - he was able to guide him to take off the Ring (could this telepathic communication have something to do with the link between Narya and the One?).

If by some means Gandalf or Aragorn could have carried the Ring to Mordor without giving in to temptation, I don't think that they would have been more easily detected than Sauron. If they actually wore the ring, they would probably have been spotted sooner than Frodo or Sam, though. However, the weak points of that plan would have been that 1. Frodo wouldn't have given up the Ring to either of them under any circumstances and 2. both Gandalf and Aragorn would probably have been mastered by the Ring earlier than Frodo - their temptation to use it was greater because of their greater powers, abilities and desires to do good.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Sharku, we meet again [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Agreed, the ring was subtle and drew upon the dark recesses of the wearers mind to overcome them. I was hoping someone would bring up that point. Gollum's idea did change from it being merely his precious "birthday present" to his becoming "Lord Gollum? The Gollum?"

But that's only the internal workings of it.

If the bearer had nothing to do with the potency of the ring to say, attract Sauron, then why did the ring pass right under Sauron's eye in Dol Guldor, in Mirkwood, with nary a blink? It was used, there, too.

As far as Frodo and Sam both being hobbits, Frodo was related to the Tooks, and there was elvish blood in them, far back, by all accounts.

Actually this post was out of its original context, but I decided to leave it alone and see what happened. I await your thoughts.

--Maril

[Sharkû]

Just a quick thought for the night -- "then why did the ring pass right under Sauron's eye in Dol Guldor, in Mirkwood, with nary a blink?" That was what I meant with will to power and delusions of grandeur. Bilbo, for example, had none but to save his friends.

[Mithadan]

Just BTW, congratulations, Mari on receiving the Downs' first Poster of the Week award!

Interesting discussion... several thoughts. To be frank... I think "then why did the ring pass right under Sauron's eye in Dol Guldor, in Mirkwood, with nary a blink?" was because Tolkien had not fleshed out LOTRs yet and so did not consider that in the writing of Bilbo's adventure.

On Amen Hen... Frodo was more visible to the Eye for two reasons... one, as stated, he was on the Seat of Seeing, but the other was because Frodo had suffered the Morgol Knife and so was forever partly in the wraith world, or at least more visible to it. Also, Frodo had grown larger in a way... more than Sam.

I agree that those with power and those that desired it were more easily corruptible by the Ring, but they would also have had more power to hide themselves from the Eye. (Gandalf or Galadriel)

[Witch King of Angmar]

I've recently been rereading the Hobbit and I was wondering that. I think that Sauron was not looking for the ring yet and he was still trying to restore his power to full. And if he was I do not think he would think to look so close to home, as was displayed in the LOTR, but that's another scenario completely.

Another reason I think as is discussed above is the pull of the ring. It did not pull on Bilbo so much because Bilbo was not as easily corrupted. But if he was and his power were greater and he greatly tapped into the rings power, then the ring would have been easily sensed because of the power. But since the ring was used so scarcely used and when it was it was not tapped into greatly, it was difficult to spot.

When the ring was idle it could not be detected as is seen when it feel in the river for God know how long.

One thing else, think about the bearer, a Hobbit. The Hobbits showed nothing but incredible strength. All the times Bilbo helped the Dwarves. When Frodo was cut by the knife of the Nazgul he lasted as was stated by Gandalf longer than would be expected by anyone. That was a grave wound that haunted him for years after it was inflicted. There was Merry and Pippins valor in battle also.

[Mister Underhill]

The power of the Ring seems to rely on a combination of the relative power of its wearer and the bearer's will to power, or at least, will to domination. Galadriel's brief comments to Frodo seem most revealing:

`I would ask one thing before we go,’ said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?’

`You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?’

Interestingly, Galadriel implies that knowledge of what the Ring is and what it does is an important part of the equation. ‘Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed,’ she says, indicating that she is aware of each of the three occasions (presumably via Nenya). Perhaps Bilbo’s ignorance of what he possessed helped shield him from the Dark Lord’s notice while he was under his nose.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Mr. Underhill, you display quite a grasp of doings outside the Shire!

..become far stronger and train your will to the domination of others.

So there's unconcious effects when you just put it on, according to your stature (disappearing, more to a sorcerer king) but if with knowledge you willfully use it, it's uses increase and you can steadily grow.

Oooo.. that is tempting, a tool that becomes more useful, gives you more and more powers.

All at a price, because the purpose/nature of the ring is Sauron's will to dominate.

Like a match lights fire, the one ring ignites and inflames the wish to dominate in any form, but also requires a spark - a wish to dominate in the first place. Ability increases only with that wish. And the number of times you actually "practice" - use the ring.

That is the nature of power, isn't it? It doesn't increase without willing it. You have to step up to the plate.

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Telchar]

Interesting thread. Interesting comments:
Sharku said:

"then why did the ring pass right under Sauron's eye in Dol Guldor, in Mirkwood, with nary a blink?"

Some facts: TA2460 Sauron moves back to Dol Guldur. TA2463 Smeagol gets the ring TA2470 Smeagol hides under ground. TA2941 The white council attacks Dol Guldur, at practicly the same time as Bilbo travelles through Mirkwood. TA2942 Bilbo travelles home, at this time Sauron is no longer in Mirkwood, but in Mordor.

The Attack on Dol Guldur was probably one of the luckiest timed events in all the history of ME because it completely drew Saurons attention from anything else. And it is the most reasonable explanation why Bilbo was not discovered.
The seven years Smeagol used the ring near the Gladden Fields was much more likely to have drawn Saurons attention - also because Smeagol used the ring for evil purposes.


Then Mr. Underhill came with this interesting remark:

Interestingly, Galadriel implies that knowledge of what the Ring is and what it does is an important part of the equation. ‘Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed,’ she says, indicating that she is aware of each of the three occasions (presumably via Nenya). Perhaps Bilbo’s ignorance of what he possessed helped shield him from the Dark Lord’s notice while he was under his nose.

Maybe Underhillo is right, that it was Bilbos ignorance of what he possesed that helped him. But if Galadriel could detect Frodo using the ring, because she had Nenya then she should have been able to also detect Bilbo and even Gollum. If so - then why did it take Gandalf a lot of trouble and a good 75 years to find out that the one was THE ONE???
I would guess that Galadriels remark was something JRRT would have changed if he had thought it through...

Ohhh yeah - better yet.... Gandalf too had one of the elven rings, why could he not imitiatly discover the identity of THE ONE???????? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[KayQy]

Women's intuition. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Mithadan]

It seems at least possible that Galadriel's knowledge that Frodo had put on the Ring was derived from tales told to her of the Fellowship's travels rather that from her ring. As someone else commented, if the bearer of an elven ring could perceive the One being put on, then Gandalf certainly would have had alarm bells going off when Bilbo put it on during the Quest of Erebor since he was wearing Narya.

[Telchar]

We are told that -"as soon as Sauron put one the one the elves was aware of him...." Im pretty sure that powers such as Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond should be able to detect the One when they wore one of the Three - much better that Sauron could - as he didnt have any ring... or that is none of the three. Maybe this is why he wanted to get as many of the Seven back as possible - to use them to detect the ONE???

[Mister Underhill]

Insightful observation, T, and one that occurred to me while I was writing my post but that was forgotten by the time I finished. I become more and more like Bilbo every day! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

If my theory holds, then Gandalf (et al) were unaware of the One because its bearers, Gollum, Bilbo, and finally Frodo, were unaware of its true identity when they used it. Thus, only after Frodo knew what he had when he put on the Ring would the Three become aware of it (and him).

Without checking into the research right now, this theory would seem to me at first glance to be supported by one scene in particular -- Frodo and the Ring atop Amon Hen, when Gandalf becomes aware that Frodo has the Ring on. This may also support my theory in another thread about Gandalf's involvement from great distances in later uses of the Ring. Hmmm....

Great discussion all around! It's exciting to see so many thoughtful new members.

[Telchar]

Its a fine explanation U. Totally waterproof, but I just dont buy it [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I still say that this is one of the very very few mistakes JRRT made - But I could easily be wrong.

[Evisse the Blue]

If my theory holds, then Gandalf (et al) were unaware of the One because its bearers, Gollum, Bilbo, and finally Frodo, were unaware of its true identity when they used it. Thus, only after Frodo knew what he had when he put on the Ring would the Three become aware of it (and him).

If this is true, imagine Gandalf's horror when Sam puts the ring on in Mordor (when the orcs capture Frodo)OR when Frodo claims the ring in the heart of Mt Doom...

But - this could be used to support your theory: Gandalf was unsure about Frodo and Sam's fate, especially after Faramir told him about the course they took. So, every time the ring was used, it was a signal to Gandalf that the hobbits were still alive (if only barely), which meant there was still hope for the fulfillment of the quest. That can be used to explain his confidence when he meets the Mouth of Sauron at the black gate and how sharply he rejects his 'terms'.
Right... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] even the author isn't convinved by such a theory...

[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

[Arothir]

This is a bit off topic, but why isn't Sauron invisible when he wears the Ring? Do the other Rings give powers of invisibility?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Yes, this last question is not on topic here, but has been discussed on many previous threads. Please use the search function (upper right of page) to find them (type "invisible" into the box) and enjoy reading them!

[Iarhen]

Probably the One Ring awoke when Gandalf threw it in the fire in Frodo’s house. Remember, Gandalf touched the Ring before without any concern on the effects such touch of the Ring would have on him. But after the Black Speech appears on the Ring, Gandalf does not dare to touch it. He even uses something else to pick it up from the fire.

Maybe when it was in the fire, the spell awoke again after thousands of years in sleep thanks to the flames… It is from that moment when Sauron is more drawn to the Ring than ever before… When Frodo puts the Ring 3 times and Galadriel feels him… What do you think?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:42 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Iarhen ]

[Finwe]

The Elven Rings weren't as powerful as the One Ring, ergo, I don't think that their Bearers could sense when the One Ring was "put on," due to the powers of the Three. They would have probably found out by other means.

[The Saucepan Man]

Probably the One Ring awoke when Gandalf threw it in the fire in Frodo’s house.

Ah, but it was "awake" when it slipped from Gollum's finger, hoping to be found by Goblins.

Personally, I like Underhillo's theory. It works for me that the powers of the wise to sense the use of the Ring derived from the knowledge and intentions of the wearer, rather than the Ring itself. As for Gandalf not detecting its use in Mordor, he may well have been unable to do so once it passed into its maker's domain.

[Lord of Angmar]

he may well have been unable to do so once it passed into its maker's domain.

I agree. I seem to recall Gandalf saying something along the lines of 'Frodo has passed beyond my sight now,' in Minas Tirith, though I do not remember the exact text. The possible antithesis to this notion, however, could be supported in part by Galadriel saying, 'I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind,' in "The Mirror of Galadriel," which would seem to suggest that the wise of Middle-earth could with thought penetrate the proverbial clouds that conceal Mordor. Galadriel's statement may or may not apply to the case of Frodo and the Ring, since we do not know whether she could in any way communicate with or 'see' Frodo once he was in the Black Land.

[Finwe]

I'm sure that the darkness that Sauron was disseminating from Mordor probably had something to do with it. After all, he knew that he had some fairly powerful enemies, and if they found out what he was "up to," all his plans would go down the drain. Or so he thought, since he had ignored the fuzzy little guys with big feet who snuck in.

[Iarhen]

Galadriel was able to see the thoughts of Sauron that concerned the elves. Ergo, I dont think that she would have been able to see what he thought of the hobbits or of men.