Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[narfforc]

Funny you say that, yes, like a red and blue thingy and headlights like bolts of lightning. No we shouldnt joke Saucepanman, this is serious. I am old enough to remember over 35 years of this argument, and all we ever achieve is gain new recruits to either side of the fence, rarely will anyone change their mind. To think this started 50yrs ago, over two sentences in LotR. My own personal view(And there is no basis for this), Is that like most of Tolkiens creations, no two were the same. This has led to speculation that, like most Maiar, they fell into different classes ie the most powerful being Gothmog, could one class have wings and another not, who knows.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

It's "Demon of Might", not "Demon of Flight".

I think it's about time to remind everybody that this is;

"DO BALROGS HAVE WINGS?"

Not;

"CAN BALROGS FLY?"

I realize to some people the questions may go hand in hand, but the fact is, plenty of pro-wingers think that they could have had them, even if they were non-working, and not be able to fly. Others believe they may have been able to fly, even without wings.

Superman could fly, and he didn't have wings. Maybe Jean Grey from X-Men is a better example, since she used her mental power to do it, which is more 'Maiar' spirit-like.

And to further the superhero talk ... "Demon of Might" in no way gives me the sense of wings, flying or what not. A demon is not a devil, or an angel. And Demon of Might sounds more like the Incredible Hulk to me.

But then, once again, they couldn't fly. At least not in the conventional sense. Otherwise they wouldn't be falling to their deaths all the time.

As for the 'they're Maiar, they can do anything they want' nonsense ... no way. Just like Gandalf, they were stuck with the bodies given to them, they can't just wrench their fea away from their hroa like that. They have to die. Sauron couldn't even render himself noncorporeal at will when he was a shapeshifter, he was still stuck switching from one body to the next.

Although there is this possibility (which supports John Howe's paintings to some degree). Balrogs are more chimeric creature than spirit monster, and when the Chamber of Mazarbul collapsed on it, it broke his wings, rendering him flightless.

That's THIN.

None of this flight nonsense.

Hospital buildings have wings ... it just refers to something branching off of the original object. In this case, shadow.

There's 20 different definitions in the dictionary for the word wing. I selected a few;
1. One of a pair of movable organs for flying.
5. An ARM of a human.
7. Something that resembles a wing in appearance or position relative to a
main body.
10. The fender of a car.
12. Either of the projections on the back of a wing chair.
14. A structure attached to and connected to a main building.
16. A group affiliated with a larger organization.
20. An emblem indicating a qualified pilot.

Now, looking at the non-bird / bat wing definitions;

Wings have a very common theme; they are always referring to (in the cases of 7, 10, 12, 14, or 16) outlying parts of a central object. In the case of 7, it fits the Balrog perfectly - shadows and smoke surrounding a 'shape like a man but greater' really fit the bill. But those five definitions give the idea of something that comes along with the main object, but isn't quite the main object.

And on that note, 20. provides a unique notion; a pilot, when he becomes a pilot, gets his metal wings (yes, a pin). The Balrogs, when they became servants of Morgoth, were wrapped in shadow. They got their 'wings', once again the wings are nothing but shadow, even if this time it's a little more metaphorical than 'the wings are made of shadow, but shaped like wings'. Yeah, that's thin too.

I mean ... Gandalf screamed "fly you fools!" at the Fellowship, knowing full well that none of them had wings.

BUT TOLKIEN USED THE WORD "FLY"! THE FELLOWSHIP MUST HAVE HAD WINGS!

See, to me ... that would be the same argument.

Winged; to move on, or as if on wings. To fly. Swift.

The whole thing comes down to Mercury, of Roman myth, who "had wings on his feet" and was the fastest of all the gods.

That part of it is total simile.

That's why he called Aragorn "Wingfoot". Going REALLY FAST. I imagine Balrogs, having a great deal longer legs than humans (if they stood around fifteen feet tall, their legs would be roughly nine feet long), could run INCREDIBLY fast. Much faster than Ents. Many miles an hour faster than Ents. These long legs and the great amounts of muscle they had (judging from the word 'might') would likely enable them to jump INCREDIBLY HIGH as well. Over hill tops? Definitely. Has anyone read the Incredible Hulk, or seen the somewhat horrible movie? Imagine seven black creatures surrounded by shadow doing that, and heading in your direction.

It would look like a thunderstorm, and the echoing boom of their landing, smashing through trees, and so forth, would make all the hills echo.

And I still stand on the point that there's no way of knowing whether they had wings or not, because every instance of the word's use was simile, the lighting in Khazad Dum was little to none because of the Balrog, and the argument has never actually been settled.

[the guy who be short]

What it was could not be seen: it was a great shadow, in the middle of which was
a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater.

Men don't have wings.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've been wondering: would Arien be the representative of the race the Melkor seduced to become Balrogs (before they were Balrogs, that is).

They were both spirits of fire, and it was said that Melkor failed to draw her to his service.

In this case, would the "arising" fire-tempests of Hithlum be the last time a Balrog was discarnate (after all, they were were sorely trounced in the Battle of the Powers, and Morgoth was absent after that to "give" them new forms)?

Then again, how could they have held their whips? Could Morgoth's return have given them new power to reclothe themselves? Since Morgoth remained stuck in one form forever after his meeting with Ungoliant, I have always assumed he could "give power" to whoever is in his vicinity (he must have given a lot to Ungoliant). But still, the whips are a problem. Are they somehow part of their power?

Sorry, just rambling here.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Well, Morgoth, unlike Sauron, didn't rely in his later years on a ring to do his creating, which bound things to it. So, presumably, his "gifts" (and the mark of shadow and being burnt by the sun) lasted forever.

Sauron's werewolves were created long before he thought up rings and Barad-Dur, and Gandalf hinted that several of them were still around, within Barad-Dur. Their construction, or at least genetic tampering, wasn't done with any ring for luck and power, and they had nothing to do with it.

The same would be true of Morgoth, who had the power to make the Music of the Ainur, even if his songs were those of discord and chaos.

The powers given to his disciples were permanent.

Smaug only ever grew stronger, even after Morgoth was cast into the void. The same is true about Sauron. Durin's Bane, presumably, was stronger than before as well.

Anyway, whether it was visible or not, the Balrogs had to have solid mass. They had to be real, vile creatures, and not just phantoms of smoke and shadow. The whips were real whips (and no, Durin's Bane's whip wasn't referred to as flaming ... although I believe Feanor may have been killed by red hot lashes).

The sword of red hot metal was presumably either reflecting the red in the Balrog's eyes, or was heated by the tremendous fiery spirit of the 'Rog. If it erupted in fire at the touch, and burned Gandalf just to touch it, it seems like Balrogs are filled with red hot fire (or magma for innerds, as the movie depicted it).

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If the Balrog's bodies were permanent during the Battle of the Powers, they would have not survived beyond that time.

Since they were some of Morgoth's best warriors, they would have been in the forefront of the battle, and they would have been slain by the Valar's warriors. If their body is permanent, they would have died with the loss of an incarnate form (cf. Saruman).

So, the body they used before the battle must not have been that permanent.

After Morgoth's return, of course, the bodies became permanent. Ergo, the truly dead Balrogs.

[Aiwendil]

Nilpaurion Felagund wrote:

After Morgoth's return, of course, the bodies became permanent. Ergo, the truly dead Balrogs.

Why would their bodies "of course" become permanent after Morgoth's return?

[Neithan]

I think he was referring to the fact that they were obviously incarnate during the war between the Noldor and Morgoth. I think that it is just as likely that they became incarnate while Morgoth was imprisoned though.

[Morsul the Dark]

I have thought of an interesting idea....maybe wings on balrogs are gender specific Like most birds are colored differently depending if they are male or female and such

Maybe female balrogs have wings while males don't or vice versa??

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I have thought of an interesting idea....maybe wings on balrogs are gender specific Like most birds are colored differently depending if they are male or female and such

Maybe female balrogs have wings while males don't or vice versa??

Were there even any female Balrogs??

[Morsul the Dark]

I dunno but who's to say they don't really get too gender specific when it comes to beasts

Edit:So now we'll argue whether or not there were female balrogs instead of if they had wings

[the guy who be short]

Balrogs are Maiar...

I was going to leave the reply there, until I realised I'd be invading Burra's position.

Anywho, the Ainur didn't have genders in the way we know them, if I recall correctly. They simply took genders in Arda because they were mirroring the Children.

This isn't 100%. I recall something like this in the Silm, but it's oh, 10 paces away. Can't be bothered with that now, can we?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Balrogs are Maiar...

I was going to leave the reply there, until I realised I'd be invading Burra's position.

Anywho, the Ainur didn't have genders in the way we know them, if I recall correctly. They simply took genders in Arda because they were mirroring the Children.

This isn't 100%. I recall something like this in the Silm, but it's oh, 10 paces away. Can't be bothered with that now, can we?

Tahat's right they took shapes so dosnt that mean some could be form with wings and some without?

my evidence is the fact that radagast gandalf and saruman dont look exactly the same and they too were maiar

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok leaving the like two vast wings line behind

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

I have here, absolute proof that balrogs had wings. In the chapter The Great River, when the wraith on wings arrived over the east bank, Gimli specifically stated, "...too much it reminded me of the Shadow of Moria, the shadow of the Balrog." These were of course described as having bat-like wings. Bat-like wings? What? Are you hearing this? Then of course Frodo went on about it being cold and deathlike instead of fiery and demonic. But as long as Gimli can see a gigantic fiery creature, with a dark cave as a background, I'm going to trust his vision and not how all you "Anti-wingists" interpret the story. Why oh why would a winged creature remind him of a Balrog? Because the balrog had wings of course. And don't try to deny it by saying that the balrog was like shadow and the creature was shadow against the sky. He didn't mean that. Definitely not. After all, the Balrog of Khazad Dum lit up with fire and wasn't dark for as long, and if it were the case that he meant that, he would have said, "that reminded me a little of the shadow of Moria," not too much. Boom, think about that. And if you'd like to argue it, go ahead. I think a few of us "Pro-wingers" are up to the challenge.

I think this although not (as it says) absolute proof is definately a strike in the right direction why would it remind gimli of a balrog?

[the guy who be short]

Answered in post 38, post 39.

Two shadowy beings. Compredrez?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by JRR Tolkien
... and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall ...

My question is then this why is it that text-wise non-wingers depend on this one word "Like"

for the record...you see someone far off let's say..Frank

You can use the similie to describe something unclear and once it is clear the simlie is now real instead of speculation

"That looks like Frank"
"Like two vast wings" speculation they look like wings but one can not be sure

then they come into view

"It is Frank"
"and its wings were spread from wall to wall" they are wings our speculation was right

[Kuruharan]

That "narrow opening of the door" bit is one example of the selective reading of that article oblo posted. If you look back, you'll see that the door is only partly open when Frodo & Co. enter the Chamber of Mazarbul, which after all isn't the Broom Closet of Mazarbul. The "narrow opening" means the narrow opening of the nearly closed door.

Hmm...I may be willing to partially concede a small point. For some reason I'd simply assumed that the Fellowship had opened the door to look about before they stepped in (this seeming to be the natural thing to do). However, I suddenly realize that it does not actually say that. I still think it is a reasonable assumption, but...

I don't think it really impacts the argument that much because when the door was shattered the orcs were still only able to leap in one at a time.

As to the "realistic" (hahaha) analysis of Balrog anatomy, where its wings "must" go, how it would "need" to wield the whip, etc., I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since we'd both have to completely make up our arguments to have an argument, and if I want to have a made up argument I can think of other topics I'd like to make up my arguments about.

You mean more so than what we've already been discussing about imaginary creatures?

[Folwren]

Alright, alright, so it appears as though our argument for the 'like' may be falling through (though I don't believe it). Here yet is another stumper that won't allow me to believe that they do have wings.

Why didn't the Balrogs fly? I mean, seriously. Flap their wings, get above Gandalf and his blasted bridge, skip the evil wizard who's trying to kill us, and eat the elf and dwarf who are too scared to use their weapons.

A fantasy writer won't create a creature with wings and make it some Nature mistake and not be able to fly with 'em. In a made up world with made up creatures, when a creature has wings, he uses them.

[the guy who be short]

There's an article on flightless balrogs here. It's generally assumed that the wings were made of shadow, making flight impossible. Decoration.

[Thinlómien]

I've always known that winged balrogs are no good and recent experiences have enstrengthened the belief...

[Lord Halsar]

Forgive me if this has already been presented, but I recently found this little bit of information in the RotK appendix A.
"Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."
Whether this is like Gandalf's use of the word meaning to flee or retreat, or if it truly does mean to fly, I do not know.

[Lord Gothmog]

The Balrog and Wings.

Ok, I know that every possible quote has been offered and no doubt 'done to death' in this thread. I have debated in more than one of these .

I give now only my views on the matter. When I first read the LotR and stood with the Fellowship at the chasm of Khazad-dûm, the impression that I got of the Balrog was of a large, Man-shaped, demonic being without wings. Nothing in the writing showed me a creature with 'Wings'.

When I first saw a debate on wings for a Balrog I could not understand why anybody thought the Balrog had any. So I did some thinking, perhaps I was wrong and re-read the books (again). I still see a very large creature (perhaps as much as 14ft tall) surrounded by a 'cloak-like' shadow that it could extend at will, similar to the darkness that surrounded Ungoliant though not as thick. Further reading and thought found no definite case of a Balrog travelling in the manner of birds in flight. They seemed at all times to be 'Ground Troops'.

So I asked myself "Why would any creature that could choose its own form saddle itself with ungainly great appendages that have no real purpose?"

This is what I came up with.

The Only creditable reasons given for wings are
a) To increase its apparent size to intimidate.
b) To Fly or Glide.

a) This is a pointless reason as the Balrog is intimidating enough due to the fear that goes before it and the fact that to increase its apparent size to look more terrible it has the Shadow which it can spread.

b) There is at no point in the writings any evidence that the Balrog could fly or even Glide. Indeed the best time for either of these actions would have been during the battle above Gondolin where there was no restriction due to space and every reason to use wings due to the height at which this battle took place. Yet even before the fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog took place we find this :-

Already the half had passed the perilous way and the falls of Thorn Sir, when that Balrog that was with the rearward foe leapt with great might on certain lofty rocks that stood into the path on the left side upon the lip of the chasm, and thence with a leap of fury he was past Glorfindel's men and among the women and the sick in front, lashing with his whip of flame.

The Book of Lost Tales: The Fall of Gondolin.

Rather than flying or gliding to get past Glorfindel's men it did so by "Leaping" A creature capable of gliding would no doubt have "Leaped Up" from where it was but then would have glided from there to the front of the line.

In the absence of any definite evidence in favour of flight, to me Occam's razor amputates the wings.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien also tells us that before the appearance of the Winged Dragons in the War of Wrath, Morgoth had never before essayed to bring war to the upper airs. This is related to the observation that at Gondolin the Balrogs needed the dragon-tanks to surmount the city walls- hardly necessary for flying creatures!

Tolkien uses 'fly' so often and so regularly in its sense of 'flee, run away,' dozens and dozens of times, that no significance at all can be attached to its use in connection to Balrogs.

Besides, the leading cause of death among Balrogs (100% of known cases) is plummeting.

[Sardy]

If nothing else, is it not true that Gandalf the Grey's final words should lay this debate to rest?: "It flies, you fools!"

jk

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Besides, the leading cause of death among Balrogs (100% of known cases) is plummeting.

Although, to be fair, Gothmog's plummet was very short (and wet), and no doubt having the spike of Ecthelion's helm stuck in his guts probably did not help

I think yes.What is your opinion?

[Eönwë]

Since new members are registering every moment, I will bring this back into the light.

Second of all, since I've never commented, I think that balrogs probably didn't have wings.

But Ibrin's comment is probably the truest- they were all (at least slightly) different.

But maybe they could have wings, which help them to glide (like the "draco" lizard or some types of tree frogs and even some types of snakes.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bump (or is that flap?)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Flap. Definitely flap.

It might be a flightless flap, but ostriches give those all the time.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Flap. Definitely flap.

It might be a flightless flap, but ostriches give those all the time.

So, the balrog is a flapping, flightless bird freak now? And not a demon using it's big, scary, shadowy intimidation by shaping into ludicrously large (figuritive) wings? Large wing span = me frightened, like California Condor frightened.