Which good guy (girl) do you least like?

[the phantom]

Elrond.... dude I love elves but what's the matter with that guy!?

I nevr really liked Elrond because he didn't let Arwen go and stay with Aragorn ... he was like putting her down ... It's just rude.

How long can somebody keep a grudge, I mean come on Elrond give it up!!!!

Don't keep calling him Elrond. Elrond in the movie was NOT Elrond, just like Faramir in the movie was not Faramir.

Please refer to him as "movie-Elrond", because that's what he is. The real Elrond was not like that at all.

I'll be predictable and vote for Feanor. I realise how great he was and all, but he did so many bad deeds that I cannot easily forgive him.

He really didn't do that many "bad" deeds.

He drew his sword on his brother, but in his mind it was justified (because he had been influenced by Melkor's lies), and the sword incident resulted in Melkor's malice being uncovered (a very good thing).

Even the most insane of Feanor's actions (eg when he burned the Teleri's ships) were the best possible way to bring about good in the world. The threads below explain everything quite well. They're worth the read (it won't take too long, just a few minutes, the first thread is specifically about Feanor, the second is about the Noldor as a whole).
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=003412
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...24&t=000038&p=

(by the way, it's on the 2nd page of the first thread that I explain why burning the ships was a good thing)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He perpetrated massacre, theft and vandalism all in a few days, plus threatened his half-brother with death. He is a compelling character but he was blinded by his own arrogance I think.

Anyway, how funny that Arwen should be getting brutalised on this page. I don't recall hearing that she splashed on makeup and sat in front of the mirror all day, glorifying her beauty. She's quite innocent in my view, and not really worthy of such fierce criticism.

[Seagull Jonathan L.]

Exactly,she is inocent. Innocence annoys me. Of cource you will be innocent sitting behind fathers back, protected.

[Lyta_Underhill]

BAAAAAAAAAAM.Exactly.Arwen reminds me of Barbie. I hate those good girls in life,and I hate them in fiction. I am not saying that every girl should take a sword and kill all bad guys,but Arwen-type is too much.

Hmmm....methinks this character is more properly called "movie-Arwen," for she did not do the warrior princess thing in the books and appeared very sparingly (appropriately!). I would agree with Eomer of the Rohirrim that Arwen is innocent, but I would also add that she is insightful enough to offer Frodo a way out when no one else had done so (it was she who gave him her token to cross over the Sea to the Undying Lands (or at least Tol Eressea) to seek healing.) I wouldn't say Arwen is completely innocent, but she is good hearted in a way that many others in Middle Earth were not or wouldn't have been in a position to be.

Cheers,
Lyta

[the phantom]

He perpetrated massacre, theft and vandalism all in a few days

But you must always take things in context. Beren perpetrated theft and murder but he is swiftly excused, rightfully so, because of the who, why, what, and so on surrounding his deeds.

In the other threads I attempted to put Feanor's (and the Noldor's) deeds in perspective, rather than just stating "he did this and that, and he's bad".

My arguments in the other threads state that Feanor and the Noldor were created in such a way that their flight to ME was inevitable (and not good to stop, for Tolkien even stated in his letters that the Noldor's war on Melkor was the best conceivable way to expend his energy while doing the smallest amount of harm to the world). The flight of the Noldor was Eru's plan.

Feanor was specifically wired and put under certain circumstances so that he'd do what was necessary to get the Noldor to ME in time to fulfill their destiny.

Angry Hill Troll, at the end of the 2nd page of thread one, does an excellent job of proving the value and necessity of Feanor's actions and states that they were the remedy for Manwe's inaction (something Eru chided Manwe for in HoME).

Feanor gets trashed a lot more than he deserves considering both the circumstances and necessity of his actions and all the good (for all of ME) that he accomplished.

(if you don't have time to read the threads at least read Hill Troll's post, it's a great one)

[The Saucepan Man]

The threads below explain everything quite well.

I might add that the threads that the phantom has linked to also include some very well-argued posts from those who disagree with his analysis, of whom there are many. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

include some very well-argued posts from those who disagree with his analysis

Disagree with the analysis, yes. Rule out and 100% not accept the analysis, no.

The other people, while personally interpreting things such as fate and Eru's plan differently, were intelligent and respectful enough to know that my analysis was not an impossibility. To the dismay of many Tolkienites, there are many areas of grey in his works that allow the reader to draw his own conclusion.

Feanor is one of these grey areas, and in case you didn't know, my purpose in life is to point people who dislike Feanor to the threads that discuss these grey areas. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

That way, even if they disagree with my view of fate and fulfilling Eru's will and instead choose to believe that Feanor is rotten, they at least understand the odd and twisted logic that makes Feanor the greatest being ever to live in my mind (and many others as well).

[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I agree wholeheartedly that he is a grey area in Tolkien's stories. I'm just not too fond of him! But your argument is compelling phantom.

Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated murder and theft.

[Jack]

mmm... I think I dislike Theoden *stares hard at spelling, shakes head sadly* is Boromir considered a good guy... I think so... I don't like him eather! But OK...

[the phantom]

Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated murder and theft.

He killed lots of orcs and stole a Silmaril. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I only mentioned his murder and theft in order to illustrate that almost nothing in and of itself is wrong, circumstances have to be considered. There's almost always a certain instance or situation in which a certain crime is acceptable.

I agree wholeheartedly that he is a grey area in Tolkien's stories. I'm just not too fond of him!

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Poor Feanor.

But your argument is compelling phantom.

This says to me that you pondered the alternatives but chose to keep your own opinion. That's the type of Feanor-disliker that I can get along with. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Airerûthiel]

I would probably say Celeborn, because to me he felt a bit superflulous to requirements - he never really seems to have much of a role in the story, which doesn't sit well with me (or maybe that's just the writer me liking everything and everyone to have a purpose). It just feels very un-Tolkien to include someone who, to me at least, felt like a completely irrelevant character.

[Maethorien]

I dislike Goldberry. I'm not exactly sure why. She just irritates me.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anywho, regarding Beren. Please explain where in the book he perpetrated and theft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He killed lots of orcs and stole a Silmaril

I feel like adding to phantom's comments. (Hope you don't mind [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Everybody loves Beren, myself included, and his actions are usually excused because they were against the 'bad guys.' There is, however, another 'good guy' who does a lot of things, most much worse than Beren's acts against the baddies, who is idolised by many, again, myself included. He killed his best friend, left the woman who loved him to die, married his sister, k.illed the man who told him she was his sister and that she had commited suicide when she discovered that fact, then .

Yep, I'm talking about Turin Turambar, the Mormegil, Agarwaen son of Umarth, etc. His actions would be inexcusable in most circumstances, but because he was cursed, no one really blames him.

I happen to be one of the people who agrees with phantom about Feanor, but I am in no way as articulate.

Anyway...

To answer the original question, I have to agree with some of the older posts, and say movie-Arwen. (though in the books, I don't really care about her. She doesn't do anything in there.) I hate to go along with the crowd, but movie-Arwen just gets on my nerves. To say the least.

And in the books, I suppose that I least like Barliman Butterbur. He just kind of irritates me. He's so stupid. (He isn't really, just absent-minded. But it drives me up the wall.)

EDIT: Stupid computer censors the stupidest things...

[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[Urwen]

I dislike Maedhros. The elf (indirectly) caused death of my namesake! Curse him for that! And his Union too!

[Andsigil]

I dislike Turin. He's a bad combination of angst, impatience, melodrama, and horrible luck. He's depicted as wise, but we're left to guess exactly how (other than winning a few battles). He also makes me doubt the wisdom of elves as judges of character.

[Loslote]

I don't much like Luthien, actually. She was rather silly. "HI silly son of Feanor! Help me steal your shiny! I'm beautiful, why are you in love with me? And why are you keeping me from helping my boyfriend from stealing your shiny? Whaaa!"

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, this could get complicated. Dislike when I read one of the books, or when I see the movies, or when I read fanfic? In LotR, I have never liked Tom Bombadil (loon). In the Silmarillion, I don't care for Turin (depressing self-important twit). In TH... Well, I would probably say Beorn (not sure why). In Jackson's version, I really can't stand Sam or Aragorn (probably too complex to get into while typing with two fingers for the first time since high school). Fanfic can make me despise anyone, if it's badly written, but these days, I cringe at the mention of Frodo and Aragorn (too often handled badly).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I don't much like Luthien, actually. She was rather silly. "HI silly son of Feanor! Help me steal your shiny! I'm beautiful, why are you in love with me? And why are you keeping me from helping my boyfriend from stealing your shiny? Whaaa!"

So glad I am not alone ... I really loathe Luthien but fear I have already used enough bandwidth here explaining why ...

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I dislike Maedhros. The elf (indirectly) caused death of my namesake! Curse him for that! And his Union too!

Why, what an improper reason to hate my dear Russandol!

[Galadriel]

Would it hurt to say Arwen? She is the most useless little damsel I have ever come across in Middle-Earth. I don't know what Aragorn sees in her, besides her beauty. Same with Beren. They're both like "Ohhh you're so pretty so let me just fall in love with you!" I mean, I know Tolkien based Luthien on his wife, and that's really sweet, but seriously, I despise this teenage infatuation stuff of 'love at first sight'.
I also find Aragorn a bit of a Gary-Sue. He is constantly compared with other characters and held up as "a mighty ruler, kingly, tall" blah blah blah.
*puffs* Now I feel evil

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Would it hurt to say Arwen? She is the most useless little damsel I have ever come across in Middle-Earth. I don't know what Aragorn sees in her, besides her beauty. Same with Beren. They're both like "Ohhh you're so pretty so let me just fall in love with you!" I mean, I know Tolkien based Luthien on his wife, and that's really sweet, but seriously, I despise this teenage infatuation stuff of 'love at first sight'.
I also find Aragorn a bit of a Gary-Sue. He is constantly compared with other characters and held up as "a mighty ruler, kingly, tall" blah blah blah.
*puffs* Now I feel evil

It would not hurt to say Arwen. That Undomiel chick (as I so fondly call her) didn't make my least favorite because I don't really care that much about her.

But I do have to disagree with you about Aragorn. He is quite awesome, and not at all Gary-Suish - in my personal opinion.

[Blind Guardian]

Arwen is annoying. I hate her part in the movies. What the heck, why not keep it original instead of letting that pesky girl to have a larger role! She seems to think she is so important! AGH!!

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Loslote

It would not hurt to say Arwen. That Undomiel chick (as I so fondly call her) didn't make my least favorite because I don't really care that much about her.

But I do have to disagree with you about Aragorn. He is quite awesome, and not at all Gary-Suish - in my personal opinion.

Yeah, he is pretty awesome, but I just feel that Tolkien kind of over-did his role.

[deagol]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Yeah, he is pretty awesome, but I just feel that Tolkien kind of over-did his role.

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by deagol

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

He does have a flaw. He lacks self-confidence. Remember when he says, in the first chapter of TTT:

Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amiss.

And then later, in the same chapter:

And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!

And, in the books at least, he does not "pine". You are thinking of the movie version. There is a difference.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by deagol

I would have to agree that the old Dunadan is a little over-the-top. A proper hero should have some endearing flaw that makes him seem at least marginally human or, lacking that, at least some inner demon to overcome beyond pining away for his dimensionless girlfriend. But for all that, he's hard not to like.

Hmm. What I liked about Turin was the fact that he was a kick-*** warrior, but his pride got in the way too much. I'm bordering on not liking Aragorn, but not quite.
I liked Frodo too. For all his flaws, I can't imagine anyone else carrying the Ring to Mordor. I like the fact that he's notyour typical hero who just gets everything right (and is liked by everyone, and gets the girl, and gets a happy ending, and gets whatever he always wanted). He is a realistic hero, and I appreciate that.