LOTR spin-off books?

[Bungo Baggins]

I just was perusing the bookshelves at a local Borders the other day and noticed how many Star Wars related books are on the shelves, and I had a terrifying thought: What if some publishing company tried to buy the rights to his works and create new stories based on his original works? Would you buy them? I'm not sure if his works are protected or not, so I would appreciate it if anyone knew more about the matter.

For the record, I would not buy any of these spin-off stories, as tempting as it might be.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Well, master Bungo, it would all depend on WHO wrote them. I suppose that, in a way, (Do not kill me for saying this) the History of middle earth may fall into that category. Not written by the Prof himself, but based on notes and such made by him. Undoubtedly, Chris Tolkien added in his own things, therefore we cannot really tell weather it would have been the same if John Ronald had written them.

I digress. If ol’ Chriss Tolkien wrote these ‘spin offs’, I'd have to look into them. It would depend entirely on what it was and how well written and researched it was.

If, however, you are thinking of some fat old man sitting at a computer making up some thing not unlike some of the... how shall I say this?... Less good fan fictions. Something like this;

"Sam woke up one morning and decided to go on an adventure of his own. He took Merry and pippin with him and they all went to Rivendell. There they found lots of Elf magic and flew over the misty mountains. Soon wargs attacked them and Sam had to use some of the magic Gandalf had taught him and blow up the wargs..."

Do you see where I am going? As long as it was actually followed what Tolkien had actually written I would not mind. Have a look at some of the RPGs right here on the downs, (I’m not saying they’ll be published, but that’s the kind of thinking I’d prefere If any at all.)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bungo,

This question may belong in another forum since it's not a direct discussion of the books themselves. But, if that is so, Esty or Legolas will move it to where it belongs...

In the United States, and I believe in Great Britain, the books are still protected by copyright law. All the profits go to the Tolkien estate, and they have the right to bring someone to court if they feel someone has overstepped that bounds.

In recent years, the Estate has been fairly active in asserting those rights. For example, not too long ago a number of map websites had to shut down or delete their map collections because the Estate lawyers threatened to bring a suit as an infringement of copyright. I have no doubt that the Estate would react similarly if someone tried to get one of our fanfictions or RPGs "published".

Yet, at the same same, I can tell you that there have been some spin-offs published outside of the United States. I've heard of such stories published in book form in Russia. Apparently, Russia and certain other countries have never signed on to the Bern Convention that is the basis of international copyright law, so there are "holes" in enforcement.

And I wonder about the old ICE publications that were published in this country. These were RPG guides that you can still get through something like e-bay which included stories using Tolkien-like characters in a world something like Middle-earth.

Perhaps someone knows more about these exceptions.

You might want to look at this older thread: rip offs

Also here on Merp and ice. and here on Merp.

Perhaps most interesting of all is Mhoram's old thread discussing the expiration of copyright.

It sounds from what Mithadan said that the Hobbit may enter public domain in the next five years. It will be interesting to see what happens then.

Having said all this, I am definitely no attorney , and that is who you'd have to go to for a definite answer on copyright issues.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, basically, that's what the host of fan fiction (RPGs too) is - spin-offs on Tolkien's books. The differences are: there's no reason to buy the books, as they're available on the internet without cost, and there's a wide variance in the quality. I don't read a lot of them, but there are a few on our BD fan fiction forum (and elsewhere) that are so well done that they're worth reading. (I also plead guilty to writing one of my own... )

Yes, Cot7A is right about the best location for this thread; I'm moving it to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there!

[Mithalwen]

Various famous books have had sequels written ( often by fine writers in their own right - I think Susan Hill wrote "Manderley" a sequel to Rebecca, and some attempted sequels to Jane Austen. Clearly there are also a lot of tacky rip offs of Tolkien, but I imagine the Tolkien Estate will protect all it's rights vigourously, and I would doubt that any "spin offs would be authorised, certainly while Christopher is alive. Part of the reason the Tolkien Estate officially distanced itself from the film was becasue it had no control over it ( although some members of the family were involved as individuals). In the long term who can say. Hookbill I think you are on dangerous ground ( but I am not going to kill you) to suggest that CRT added his own stuff to HoME. Obviously he has selected and edited, but it is quite clear what is his "editorial" and what is his Father's notes and if he has had to make a judgement call on a word these are annotated. It would be a fairer comment on the Sil to my mind actually where he had to make selections from so many versions and ( as he admits in HoME, may have made wrong choices eg with regard to Gilgalad's parentage) However the publication of so much of the drafts etc in HoME neutralises this to some extent. To some extent, given that CRT was so closly involved with his fathers work as it was being written, his speculation or subcreation would be fascinating.. yet he (as far as I recall ) restrains himself to documentary evidence a lot of the time. Although the odd anecdote (as with the origin of "Bingo" as the name first used for Frodo, slips out.

Usually CRT is accused of leaving stuff out rather than adding stuff

With all the Fan fic and RPG out there on the net ..I wonder if there would be a demand for published stuff? Any of us who indulge in these activities have our own theories how untold stories pan out - would we be satisfied with any other versions?

[Child of the 7th Age]

....would we be satisfied with any other versions?

Good question, Mithalwen ! I would say that 99% of fanfictions and RPGs could be quickly read on the internet and then filed to the back of our minds. Still, occasionally, we find something that goes far beyond the usual.

I am most interested in things that "fill in the holes" in Middle-earth. I am least interested in AU pieces. But that is a personal preference.

On our own website, two examples come to mind. I feel that Gilthalion's Hobbit story and Mithaden's haunting tales are a definite step above most routine fanfiction. They are not Tolkien, but they do add something to Middle-earth, at least for me, that's worth remembering.

I would truly be interested to know if the copyright to Hobbit will be expiring in a few years and exactly what that means. Is that really true? For example, could one publish a story with Bilbo Baggins because he's part of Hobbit, or would that be "prohibited" because he's still protected under the LotR copyright? There would seem to be a curious dilemma here.

Hookbill,

I personally feel that there is a greater problem in the Silmarillion than in HoMe in knowing what is JRRT and what is his son. At least in Home, CT was very carefully to identify his own comments as opposed to the original text. The same can't always be said for Silm where we have to figure out what was changed, either by actual composition or by selecting a particular manuscript from many.

But I would also not put CT in the same category with fanfiction and RPG writers (of which I am one). He did have a special mantle placed on his head....

[Mithalwen]

I am most interested in things that "fill in the holes" in Middle-earth. I am least interested in AU pieces. But that is a personal preference.

Sorry to be ignorant but could you explain AU?

[Child of the 7th Age]

AU is "alternate or alternative universe". These are stories that postulate the story developed differently than how the author actually wrote it. This group does include slash, but it's much wider than that. You might have a story where Boromir doesn't die, or another where Frodo is "successful" in claiming the Ring.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

AU is "alternate or alternative universe". These are stories that postulate the story developed differently than how the author actually wrote it. This group does include slash, but it's much wider than that. You might have a story where Boromir doesn't die, or another where Frodo is "successful" in claiming the Ring.

Oh I see... well I RPG an AU but fanfic (for my own amusement) the gaps....

[The Saucepan Man]

As I have said before, I am no expert in intellectual property law. But I am able to shed some further light on some of the questions raised here - with regard to UK law at least.

As far as literary works are concerned, copyright only protects the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. However, the borderline between the expression of an idea and the idea itself is very difficult to define. I believe that copyright does protect more than the story as written. For example, it is possible that ideas that are substantially elaborated could attract copyright protection. This might well mean that protection is extended to the concepts used by Tolkien in creating his tales.

It is also worth noting that copyright does not protect names or titles, so authors are free to use the names "Bilbo Baggins", "Legolas" etc in their own works. I suspect, however, that if such names were used in conjunction with characters identical (or substantially identical) to the characters they denote in Tolkien's works, this would constitute an infringement of copyright. Also, names and titles may be protected by trade mark law. I do not know whether the Tolkien Estate has trade marked the names used in his works, but I am pretty sure that they will have been trade marked in connection with the merchandising rights (which Tolkien sold off, together with the film rights).

The upshot of all this is that, if one were to publish for commercial gain a tale based on LotR or The Hobbit, one would have to tread very carefully indeed (in the UK and other countries, such as the USA, with strong intellectual property laws, at least). One would have to substantially alter the characters, locations and concepts in order to avoid being at the wrong end of a lawsuit brought by the Estate (which, as has been said, is very aggressive in enforcing its rights). Indeed, the closest one could get would probably be something akin to the Shannarah series by Terry Brookes.

As for the ICE role-playing guides and the more recent Middle-earth based role-playing game, I suspect that the rights to these were sold off by the Tolkien Estate along with the film and merchandising rights. In fact, they are probably included within the merchandising rights. This would account for the preponderance of Middle-earth based board games, card games and video games.

Finally, copyright in a literary work (under UK, and indeed EU, law) lasts for for the life of the author plus 70 years from the end of the year in which he/she died. Copyright in all of Tolkien's works will therefore not expire until 2043 (by which time I shall be in my 70s ).

Hope that helps.

[Mithalwen]

Most of the names seem to be trade marked by New Line /the Saul Zaentz co which bought the original film rights I believe.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

If I'm honest, I was actually thinking more of Silm than HoME. But I felt it may be an interesting comment. I have actually heard some that say Silm should be counted as THE History of Middle earth... I'm not sure about that.

Back on topic.

Child, I have also heard of such stories published in book form in Russia. I have never seen them, but I heard tell of them. They apparently tell the tale of Legolas and Gimli, and give rise to the belief that Gimli sailed to valinor. Of course this could all be a load of rubbish, but the possibility is there. If they do exist I would not be surprised if it was not long before the estate thrust the heavy fist of the law down their throat.

[Lalwendë]

If I saw a book of fanfics or RPGs and they looked good, I'd buy them, as I would if they published any of these strange 'sequels' (there is one to Pride & Prejudice which I'm often intrigued by). I'd buy them, but I suspect it would be simply to satisfy my curiosity, and I can find such good work in our own RPG and fanfic areas on the 'Downs. I have seen the vast numbers of Star Trek novels out there - but then this is a different matter as they are based on visual entertainment - and there really needs to be not much more embellishment to Tolkien apart from what is already freely available out there.

And it all has to be canonical of course.

Now I'm going to take the plunge and make myself look stupid. Can someone explain what slash exactly is? Because I'm scared I might have written some if it's what I think it is.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Hi, Lalwende.

Slash is any story based on a man/man or woman/woman pairing. AU is a wider category, encompassing all kinds of deviations from an original story or history. For example, Harry Turtledove has written many books that postulate major deviations in history such as the South winning the American Civil War.

~Child

[Lalwendë]

Slash is any story based on a man/man or woman/woman pairing.

Another fine example of my naivety! And I innocently thought it meant lots of violence and fighting! Oh dear...

[HerenIstarion]

I have had an experience once - Nick Perumov (widely read author in post Spviet space, where Russian is still the lingua-franca for former socialist states) pursued an occupation in writing books about 4th age, with a warlike hobbits, Ringwraith Rings still around and a lot of other nonsense. Basic difference, which I then failed to see but now am able to put my finger onwas in philosophical background, though - for Mr. Perumov, the Good and Evil are equal forces.

But I stray. The publication was possible at all due to loopholes in international copyright legislation, I suppose (I'm not sure I'm sure about the thing, maybe it was headed 'fanfic' after all) Thing is, I've read it out of curiosity and thirst for all things even vaguely reminiscent of Tolkien. But my dissapointment with that particular piece (or pieces, as since 1994 when I first read it, Mr. Perumov went on to write the whole series of sequels), does not automatically imply I would not enjoy work of some other author, provided that it is fitting, philologically erudite, well written and does not chew over similar plotlines. Hard task for much advertised (by publishing houses) Tolkien's 'successors', but not impossible, I reckon

That'd be book one of mentioned by C7A up there. Another one (Russia again) is "Dark Wind" by Niennah (pseudonym, I once knew the proper name, but forgot it). This latter book is a Silmarillion from a point of view of the 'Dark Side'. Much better read than Perumove, and much cleverer, but equally standing on different ground than good old Professor dug his entish fingers into - arrogant, I daresay.

Or, in the latter case, I've been dissapointed, but not because the book repelling in its style or language mastery, and the plotline is quite interesting - though not original - basically repeating the Sil, just the standpoint is shifted. It is repellent in its morals, this time round.

So, the moral of my own post here maybe stated as mentioned, and now following:

Hard task for much advertised (by publishing houses) Tolkien's 'successors', but not impossible

But another moral still states:

The original is by definition of more value than its copy,

And yet third moral may be drawn:

All the men do is [sub]creation - basing once work on things already there.