Do you feel you learn more from Tolkien and the Downs than School?

[lindil]

A question geared for the younger crowd.

I am thinking back [waaay back] to when I was in High School and trying to cometo terms with the absolute bizarreness of life and especially life in middle-class America.

I had a close circle of friends, all of whom of course read Tolkien (and listend to Yes) and spent alot of time exploring the remaining oak forests between suburbs...

Anyway at the time I felt rather outraged that society was forcing me to learn it's to me absurd and misguided ways...so I was rather rebellious [and thus missed out learning a lot of extremely goood things I could have, especially syntax and rules of grammar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

Anyway at the time I very much thought I was learning more about what was true and important from Elves, hobbits and Maiar than Algebra and 'History' teachers.

Was I crazy? Have things changed much since 19xx ?


I wonder now if the Downs would have inspired me to actually work harder in school, I am terribly envious of the depth and polish most of the folks here who have been to College display [and I rather painfully lack]. I would like to think that having been exposed to the Downs might have sparked my zeal for English [ and especially Latin which I utterly wasted, though the phrase Manus manum Lavat certainly holds true. OK so I only wasted 99.98 % of Latin but anyway...thoughts?

Also I envy you folks still in school, for while your personality is still (relatively [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) malleable, to be able to in a sense find at least intelectually and emotionally if not viscerally, mentors of many different kinds here.

[ April 08, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Eruanna]

Writing as someone who tries to teach "History and Stuff" to some young 'uns. I too, would be very interested to hear some opinions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

And Lindil, things haven't changed at all! Students are still rebellious and resentful (well, some of them) and I wish I could get a lot more of them interested in reading...I try. Really, I do!
On a happier note, I have been surprised at the "tender ages" of some of the Downers. It does my heart good to see all of the younger people on this site who are devoted to reading and Tolkien. Their depth of knowledge astounds me and often confounds me (I spend a lot of time in the Quiz section!).
If anyone finds role models in a place like this. Or in the words of an undoubtedly great writer; then in my opinion they are making good choices.


[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eruwen]

Well I've only been "learning" from Tolkien for a few years now, but I can definitly see a difference in my knowledge skill. Let me clarify...

At school, I feel like I only have to listen to be able to pass. I don't really want to learn. I pretty much only do it to get a good grade and please my parents. On the Downs, I am able to learn freely. I have learned parts of many languages as well as writing techniques, history, and different sorts of things. With being able to read and learn on my own, I don't feel so pressured into things. So in a way, yes, I have been able to learn and comprehend many more things from the Downs and Tolkien than at school.

Is that a good thing? And to think about it, if I hadn't had gotten interested in LOTR, where would I be now?

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

On a happier note, I have been surprised at the "tender ages" of some of the Downers. It does my heart good to see all of the younger people on this site who are devoted to reading and Tolkien.

Well, that looks like it was just geared at me... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I think I'm probably the youngest/second youngest/third youngest Downer in history, and I'm a bookworm. That is, when I'm not on the Downs. Which, I am finding, is a quickly decreasing amount of time. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
In school, I also find that I listen mostly to please people, or sometimes, but rather rarely, we have an interesting class, in which case I listen for that. The Downs are different...I have been known to sneak onto the Downs when I'm supposed to be doing homework, being in study hall, being in lunch, being in bed...yeah, you get the gist of it. I also think that at the Downs, it's rmuch better, especially because of all the different sections, not all jumbled up into one big mass, like school. I think that I certainly learn more and have more fun here than at school, where I am sort of quiet, and often find myself almost asleep. Also, there aren't cliques on the Downs. I think. Okay, I'll also admit that right now is one of the times I'm supposed to be doing homework, so I had better minimize this window. I'll post more stuff later...

[Vardamar]

Tolkien and school are two very different things.

Tolkien is something I do for fun, instead of the brain atrophying TV. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Learning I do so that I can go to medical school <-- learning is also fun, I just need a break sometimes.

And to you teachers out there Thank You for making a difference in your students lives. Or at the very least trying to. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Tolkien has inspired me in my writing though. I’m taking a college English course, and have yet to score below a 94%, and that’s for a handwritten in class essay
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Cibbwin]

GaladrieloftheOlden, I am 15, how about you?

I enjoy school for the most part. I have no motivation whatsoever for math, though. I've been a bookworm ever since I could read, and I love history, languages, writing and music. I was introduced to LoTR after I saw the first movie in theatres. I fell in love, and now it's one of my passions. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Oh what a thread! There are so many thoughts bursting in my head all at once, if I could only type as fast as I thought, and then think faster as to develop those thoughts individually while I type them onto the screen.

But first let me say that I think this thread should be moved to the Books section. My reasons are that this is (or will become, I presume) an in depth discussion, and it does deal with Tolkien. But if you think otherwise, so be it.

I think that a lot of it has to do with freedom. Everyone enjoys their space, and that goes with thinking space. In school, you have certain boundaries as to your supposed to be learning, and some classes offer more freedom than others. However, there are no boundaries as to what you learn when reading Tolkien and at the Downs. You are completely free to learn what ever you choose.

School can be tedious. Some of it is not always learning, and I think that this is what takes away from education. Some of the 'learning' is actually just busy work, just forcing and drilling things into your mind simply by memory. The more you do it, the easier it is to remember, and by remembering it, you are rewarded with A's and sometimes B's simply for writing down what you remember. This is most common in math, I think, and history too. It is not by this method teachers should be taching students for this is not really teaching as those who do not understand it will very soon forget it. They should teach students to understand what it means and how to use it. That forms strong bonds, and it sticks with them easier, and it becomes a lot more useful. I know that when I learning an equation or formula, and actually understood it, I felt smart and good about it, and it took a real long time before I forgot it, and that's if I have forgotten it yet.

Also, a lot has to do with motivation. If you are not motivated to learn, and this can be for many reasons (subject, learning environment, teacher, etc.), you're not really going to learn. in school a lot of the times, students become bored and distracted easily. We all know that when that happens, everything goes in one ear and out the other, and that's if it even enters our mind. Pretty soon classes like those can become very repetetive and eventually, one can come to dread it because it is so boring. Then, you really don't learn anything. Teacher's lessons day-by-day are supposed to all fit in to each other and each day sets the stage for the next. The more we pay attention, the better we understand it, the more we learn. The less we pay attention, the less things make sense, the less we learn.

And in school, we learn the most when we want to learn. Topics that keep us intereseted have the best effects on us, but that's not all classes (for most people anyways) and most classes are mandatory. We don't have to worry about that outside of school because we choose what we want to learn, and usually, it's something that we want and like.

Then here at the Downs and in Tolkien's works, everything is laid back. You choose to learn what you will and at your own pace. You are your own teacher when reading. Your mind is is the teacher, and also the student. You learn from what you think, and what you can do with those thoughts. At the Downs, we are each other's teachers, and students likewise. This place is like a huge school, where everyone goes bustling about to another classroom maybe in the Books section, or to something more fun like the quiz section. But here, you choose when, and if you go. You are not forced to do anything. Therefore I seem to learn a lot, and when I come here, I usually do it to learn, and when I can't learn anymore more than I want to for that moment, I teach instead. I think everyone has done both, whether we realize it or not.

The question from the title of this thread is: Do you feel you learn more from Tolkien and the Downs than School?

Well, I cannot further say until you define to me what you mean by "more". More can mean a lot of things in a question like this. It can mean 'more beneficial', more in a quantitative sense, more in an eduational sense, etc. I think that you meant for "more" to be in general, but hopefully now you see that I cannot give a general answer to that question.

That's all for now.

EDIT: Not only that, it's really impossible to get a definate answer on this since it veries from person to person, but I think you already realized that.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Arwen_Evenstar]

Well, I am 14 years of age, and In year nine. I feel that reading Tolkien works has greatly improved my work at school. Firstly, I have always enjoyed and been good at english, but after reading Tolkien my work got even better from seeing Mr Tolkiens techniques. Also I have been reading alot more than usual, and taking an interest history...ok, so its ME's history, but its history nonetheless!But reading it has left me with a bit of a longing for something more pure than the world that we live in today.
Also, I was a bit hesitant about revealing my age and I hope that it will not influence how seriously you take my posts and opinions. Thankyou! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Well, I will say that I have learned much since being here (over a year now!) I have a desire to go back to college (uni). I have a love of learning, just for the sake of learning! Especially of languages, this has always been with me, before it was just the mastery of the langauge, but now it is the understanding of the roots of the language. I don't think that was there before Tolkien.

Also, when I came on here I had to use a dictionary to understand some of the converstations [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The words used here were way out of my South Ga vocabulary.

My school history was in Private schools then homeschooling in highschool. In high school, I was my own teacher, even though I had required classes, I had to make them enjoyable. Like someone said, my brain was the teacher and it was the student. That was learning for the pure sake of learning. There is nothing more rewarding than that! I guess that is why I keep coming back here, I learn so much from you guys. I've even learned a bit about myself [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Arwen posted:

Also, I was a bit hesitant about revealing my age and I hope that it will not influence how seriously you take my posts and opinions.

While anyone can answer the Q. with something valuable to contribute, I tried to slant it a little towards younger folks still in school. So no Arwen your age detracts nothing at all from this [or any post]. I relly value the downs as a resource and potential inspiration for younger folks, possibly because in general it has such a warm and familylike atmosphere [no mean feat in such a large cyber-community] and because I was in 7th grade when I started on FotR myself.

MLD g'kepper W.: what do I mean by 'more'?
Well, as you intimated it was really meant as an open ended question. I did not really have quantity so much as quality in mind, but I was most concerned and intersted in drawing out peoples thoughts and experiences whatever they may be and generating some reflection and appreciation for the opportunities at hand, both here and at school.

As for being in the Books, I thought of that and Estelyn is of course free to move it if she sees fit, but I deliberately put it here in the hopes that some of the younger folks might be more likely to post on it [ not that being young means you are a novice or a newcomer mind you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] but I figured I would err on the side of a sweeping generalization.


Joy, brings up a point that I share myself. A desire to go back to school. Though in my case it is extremely unlikely, and therefore am coming more and more to the realization of the need to improvise an education especially in the area of English basics [ so I can learn Quenya and a couple other languages like Greek and Spanish]and improve my writing so as to hopefully be able to do it professionally.

I learn so much from Tolkien and BD'ers because of the passion that is shared for ME and all of it's elements. It's a positive learning environment if you will. In high school I found it hard to get into any class unless the teacher was passionate about teaching it or at least gave half a damn about it. Some teachers care so little their lesson plans involve word searches and staring at the clock daydreaming about the millions of things they would rather be doing than "teaching" a bunch of punk kids. Others make lame attempts at teaching only because they have to. It's sad that school feels like a jail cell to most kids. On the other hand I have had a few teachers that were interesting as well as inspirational. It was an English teacher freshman year who turned me on to Tolkien as a matter of fact. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you couldn't care less about something why even bother trying to teach it? If teachers were as passionate about whatever they choose to teach as we are about Tolkien IMO we would learn more from them and our educational system would not be so laughable.

--- This is my first post here but I've been lurking around the downs for months now. I must say I am very pleased indeed to have found the Barrow-Downs.

[lindil]

Welcome to the Downs Lost Ranger!

And of course I am honoured that my little query has brought you forth from lurking to posting. May you post well and wisely.

You of course bring up an interesting piont re: teaching with passion and it also points to a dilemna I was not able to overcome in most regards during school; if I did not have a passion for the class or the teacher did not communicate one to me that I could identify with then I often flailed in the class or scraped by.

This was a real lack on my part, I see with ever-increasing hindsight [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img], as I allowed my choices to be more or less dictated by another person's [and culture's!] low level of being or utter lack of skill in teaching or as you mentioned Lost Ranger, sheer unconcern.

To me this lesson is one of [if not] the most persistent and difficlut ones I have to grapple with; doing what should be done whether there is any outside support or not.

Tolkien was indeed a great solace and a pointer to the True Path on numerous and even essential levels, but could not replace many things - which is hardly suprising as the Legendarium is designed as a replacment mythology - not a replacment High School Curriculum!

In my high school [it was huge sprawling affair in suburban Northern Virginia with 3,300 students] it was for me componded by the inherent mistrust I had in the entire system of learning which seemed to be prinicipally designed to fashion me into a maleable cog in the corporate american consumer machine.

Untangling that above premise [whicgh alas has proven only too true as the years have worn on] with the need and desire for a good foundation in Math, Music, the Sciences and Languages proved more than I could successfully grapple with. So by and large I retreated in Tolkien and other not here mentionable vices and so deeply influneced and realigned my entire path of education.

[Meela]

I find that I dont learn more or less than in school, nor do I in fact 'learn' anything about Tolkien, as it is merely an interest and not something I wish to gain a BD degree in or anything.

I cannot comapre it to school because there is no such thing as Tolkien in school (nor do i actually go to school... waaay behind me, thank god.).
I do not really care how much i learn about Tolkien. It may be more than a hobby or interest, but thats all it is. It is not a subject with homework, exams, or coursework. I dont want to feel that I have to learn either. Im beginning to feel Im under a lot of pressure from this place to compete with the people who do wish to grant themselves a degree in Tolkien.

[mark12_30]

Great thread, lindil.

I was young, and now am old...

teaching with passion ... if I did not have a passion for the class or the teacher did not communicate one to me that I could identify with then I often flailed in the class or scraped by.
...
To me this lesson is one of [if not] the most persistent and difficlut ones I have to grapple with; doing what should be done whether there is any outside support or not.

You have articulated the chasm into which I feel long ago and from which I still have not made good my escape. To the last sentence I would add, doing what should be done whether I can muster any passion for it or not. (I was young, and now am old, but apparently I am still not yet grown up.)

[lindil]

"Im beginning to feel Im under a lot of pressure from this place to compete with the people who do wish to grant themselves a degree in Tolkien."

meela, sorry if I in anyway contributed to this experience of yours. I can assure you that for my part I have no intention or wish to cause anyone anxiety! What I have posted here is my experience and offering others to share [within the parameters of the original topic] their experiences.

In all seriousness and not at all trying to be unkind, it seems that you understand your experiences completely outside of the frame of reference of the topic, which is certainly valid. I presuppose quite a few things, many of which may not be true, or seem true to our experience.

I can only encourage you to be selective in what you take in from a thread, and obviously from the DOwns in general, many people come here with an amazing amount of enthusiasm and energy, and some are still overcome with amaze at how true and powerful Tolkiens writins and philosophy is for them, often deeper than anything else in their lives. I am not saying this is a norm for anyone to strive for, but that it seems a common enough experience, others are here for community, 'lore', to explore Tolkien and Christianity or as often seems the case for all of the above in ever shifting combinations and preferences.

If you find a topic or idea that is too intense or too scholarly then perhaps that should be a warning sign that this one is maybe not for you.

If I apply your above quote to myself, I can see I think where you might be coming from. But I think that in almost every case hear, people are more interested in drawing water as deeply from the well of wisdom [ via Tolkien] as possible. Some along the way in trying to express this find that others can do so brilliantly, and while I won't say this makes me envious, it does often make we want to re-evaluate how I got to where I am and see if anything can be done about it. Tolkien has powerful effects on people and I think you see the examples of that all over the board in a myriad of ways.

Forgive the discourse, I hope it helps explain my motives if nothing else.


helen: sounds like we are in a similar boat.

My apologies to all if the above was too heavy, but I would not be suprised if Meela's experience was not so rare, and that being the case felt it deserved a rather thorough acknowledgement.

oh i dunno
im from Denmark, we learn a lot of funny stuf in school
not the same but just a much

[Meela]

Its nobody in particular [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
i mean, i have a fair range of knowledge, specialist areas, etc... but i just feel that everyone always knows more and im not good enough. maybe its just me (i mean, im pretty much certain i have chronic paranoia...).
But dont get hung up for thinking its your fault! Its a widespread thing.

[Goldberry]

I don't really feel like I learn more or less here on the BD's than I do at school; they are two different things for me.

I am only 13 and in grade 8, but that's another great reason that I love to come here, because people of all ages seem to be welcome here. The BD's are a really fun place to come for me and I plan on spending a lot of time here over the years, especially when I am not always so busy with school! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Well, I think I'll add more to what I posted earlier. I also think that what I learn at the Downs is very different from what I learn in school. In school, it's rather more that I have to learn than that I want to. Here, I learn whenever and whatever I want, and if I don't feel like learning, I can just go over to Middle Earth Mayhem or something. Also, even though I am a bookworm, it doesn't mean I sit through class having all the fun in the world because we have a history book or something. Okay, I'll post the rest tomorrow, as once again, I should be studyingnow.

[Luinalatawen]

Yes, I do think I learn more from Tolkien than at school, but in a certain sense. I learn in school because I want to do well and get good grades, but I don't do it because I want to learn the things that we are being taught. But as far as Tolkien goes, I want to learn as much as I can! So, yes I learn more from Tolkien because I have more interest in it. And especially because I'm getting senioritis, I don't want to do any work at school. I hate learning US History. Global History is a little more of interest to me, and Middle Earth History is more interesting than any other history, and it's all imaginary. I suppose that's why people think us fanatics are insane...

[Diamond18]

Ironically, I have learned a lot of useful non-Tolkien related things here at the Barrow Downs. Or, I should say, I was at least pointed in those directions by references people made. I like the feeling of discovering something new that way, broadening my horizons and such.

To compare the Downs to school is pretty pointless for me. This is not because I'm not actually "in school" anymore due to mine advanced age of 18 (haha) and lack of money and courage for college. It's more because I was homeschooled from 1st grade on, and so almost my whole school experience was that freestyle, persue-what-interests-you type of learning. Well, my mother did force me to do mathematics though I despised it greatly, but I digress.

So I'd say the things I learn through the Barrow Downs experience is just like a continuation of how I've been learning all along. Just keeping my eyes, ears, and mind open to all that goes on around me.

A few comments on feeling pressured to get a degree in Tolkienolgy:

I am still unable to post very much in Books because my knowledge of Tolkien comes nowhere near a degree of any kind. I do still read many threads, though I have nothing to contribute to them. It's still interesting to read quietly, but under no circumstances do I feel pressured to make some thunderingly brilliant post on the subject.

In the end, it doesn't really matter how erudite you are about Tolkien when it comes to being a "good" or even "popular" member of this site. It's more important to know your limitations, and whether or not you are content with them. I have no desire to read HoME just so I can get into a stimulating discussion about Elvish reproduction, but neither am I going to post in that thread saying, "Gee...I dunno anything but hey, I'm a Wight now!"

Anyway, my point was that no one should feel pressured to build up on arcane Tolkien knowledge just to fit in. Just post well wherever you do happen to post.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

If you find a topic or idea that is too intense or too scholarly then perhaps that should be a warning sign that this one is maybe not for you.

If anyone ever finds themselves stumbling into a thread like thes, and after doing so realised it wasn't for them (I know I have) then do not feel ashamed. We learn from our mistakes, and that's not to say that going into a thread and getting in over your head is a mistake. And don't feel intimidated or left out because others seem smarter than you are. You may be surprised at how much you really know. I don't care if someone has passed the bar exam and is working for the largest law firm in the world while I'm sweeping floors at McDonalds, I won't let myself be intimaidated because I want to take all I can from a discussioin and give all I can. And that's not to say that I (or any of us for that matter) work at McDonalds, mind you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . What I'm saying is that you shouldn't keep out of a thread just because you feel intimadated. Try it out first, that way you'll know for sure. You can leave if you want after that if you can't keep up with the discussion or for any other reason, but you can keep going if you can, and want to of course. That's just my take on things like this.

people are more interested in drawing water as deeply from the well of wisdom [ via Tolkien] as possible

Just don't fall in [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . And if you do, so what. There are plenty of other downers at the well to offer you their help if you need it.

It's more important to know your limitations.....Just post well wherever you do happen to post.

That's some good advice from Diamond18, and very ture. You sort of prove your point just by posting that (kinda wierd if you think about it).

Now, back to that question again. It's hard to give an answer for this, but I'll try. I say that I learned more from school. I have to go now so I'll post my reasons sometime soon.

[Beruthiel]

I really can't say I've learnt anything from the BD but I can say it has changed the way I learn things from school. I'm improving in English (thank goodness) and I can understand things better. Tolkien's writing, as wonderful as it is, can be quite complicated but I've gotten used to it and now in class the work seems to make more sense.

To the other topic thats come up, at my age (13) I get very over-whelmed by some of the more 'intense' discussions and I just stay clear of them. I do have opinions about them but I don't think I can get them into words that could compare with the other posts.

[Goldberry]

You pretty much just summed up what I was thinking there, Beruthiel. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

From Tolkien, my reading and overall language understanding has improved.

[Melephelwen]

I haven't had time to read the thread (going to a birthday-in-family party) but I'll return later. I'll have to say that I at least learn more English on 'Downs, than my teacher can ever hope to make me comprehend. (She's not trying, but that's another story [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) I've also gotten a lot better at 'philosophy' (aka my native language [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Right, now I'm back. As already mentioned I learn a lot of English, (that's both 'proper' English and that 'short cut' "pees & luv 4 u 2 b a hap 1 4eva" style teenage writings) That's really interesting sometimes! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
The philosophy-part, it may not be the right name to give it, but here I have to put my opinion clear, and say it simple, because I can't just do that 'after-explanation' when people get that really weird facial expression (right word?) because I said the opposite of what I meant and managed to make it sound as if I was babbling about something completely different. I do that in school far too often, and my teacher just look giving up-like (the dictionary doesn't know the word I'm looking for) whenever I start saying something I can't finish because I talk myself to somewhere else. That's by the way what I'm doing right now [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] - just finding back to the topic...
I don't feel like I can't get into discussions because I'm not 'smart enough'. I must admit that I read a lot more than I post, but it's usually somebody else already said what I think, and I don't want to do that "I think the same as everybody else, just want to say I'm here". Makes me feel rather stupid! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
Can't think of anymore for now, but I'll probably return terribly [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Btw, Lydia Ely Naïlo welcome! I'm a Dane too, we're getting quite a few [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Hope you have fun [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] (I'm not as scary as I seem!)

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Melephelwen ]

[Gorwingel]

During the short time I have been interested in Tolkien (about a year and 4 months). The major effect it has had on me and my education is that it has gotten me back to the library and into books. When I was in elementary school (oh, elementary school, those were the days) I was one of those students who was very shy, so instead of going outside to play during recess, I would instead go to the library and read almost any book that I could get my hands on (I especailly loved reading about people's lives, disasters, picture books, historical novels, everything) though I sadly never got to any of Tolkien's novels (I did not have my first experience with LOTR until 7th grade). I don't think it has had a major effect on my English skills (though I still suck at writing essays)
I have to agree with what many people here have talked about. Tolkien and High School are two totally different things. Tolkien is a interest, something that I want to learn many things about, and something that I want to continue learing about. High School is something that since I have got to the level of being a junior is something that is very repetative (I am basically learning the same things that I learned for the first time years ago over and over again) and I just do it so I can get that magic little degree and go on to college where I can learn about things that I actually want to learn. I would have to say that I learn about the same amount from both High School and Tolkien but they are both two completely different topics.

Interesting question (I am sorry if my response seems to make no sense at all)