Frodo's Dream - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

GaladrieloftheOlden · 03-11-2003, 07:42 PM

At one point in FotR, I think it's right after Weathertop Frodo has a dream that he is in his garden in the Shire, doing something, but then there is a black shape, obviously meant to be a Black Rider, looking over the hedge. I was wondering: do all you people think it was just a coincidence, a bad dream caused by his wound, or something more? I dunno. I don't have the quote right now, but if you want me to find it, I will.

Faenaduial · 03-11-2003, 09:02 PM

Here is the quote I think you were referring to:

Quote:

He lay down again and passed into an uneasy dream, in which he walked on the grass in his garden in the Shire, but it seemed faint and dim, less clear than the tall black shadows that stood looking over the hedge.

I'm not sure the bad dream was caused by the wound; remember, he has been chased through the wild by the Black Riders and that should be enough to give anyone bad dreams. But I do think it very telling that he feels the Shire is growing dim and the black shadows are clearer. I always thought that was caused by the wound. Remember Gandalf told Frodo when he was recovering in the House of Elrond that he was beginning to fade.

Iarwain · 03-11-2003, 09:04 PM

I think it has a wonderful subliminal message. Thanks for bringing it up, Galadriel. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 03-11-2003, 09:47 PM

I think it's foreshadowing of the ruining of the Shire, and/or the fact that Frodo will never be fully healed by the wound and that the Shire will never be the same to him. He can never enjoy it as he once did.

Eol Telemnar · 12-12-2003, 06:46 PM

I agree to that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 12:46 PM

If I had been chased and wounded by the Nazgul, I'd probably have nightmares about them too. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I think Tolkien uses many of Frodo's dreams to serve as foreshadowing to what is happening at that point in the story or what may happen later. Frodo dreamt that black shadows were around the edges of his garden. By that time, Saruman's ruffians were probably scouting around the edges of the Shire, trying to force their way in. Other "dark" things had also taken notice of the Shire (i.e. Sauron), and were sending spies and minions there. It was also an excellent foreshadowing of the Scouring of the Shire and it probably gave Frodo the realization that there was much more at stake than just his live, the lives of his companions, or the One Ring. He was saving his homeland, which was already under attack.

Frodo has yet another "prophetic" dream after being stabbed by the Morgul blade. He dreams of Gandalf, striding back and forth, imprisoned on top of the pinnacle of Orthanc. While Frodo was injured, that was exactly what was happening. My theory is that the wound caused by the Morgul blade caused Frodo's "spirit" to slip out of his body, and search for the person that he knew he'd always trust, Gandalf. True, Aragorn was with him, but Frodo didn't really know Aragorn by then, or at least not as much as he knew Gandalf. After Aragorn treated Frodo's wound with athelas, his "spirit" was "brought back," as it were, and remained in Frodo's body after that, until he was healed. That would explain the visionary dream.

Any thoughts?

Theron Bugtussle · 12-15-2003, 10:25 PM

Finwe, I think your timing is inaccurate concerning Frodo's wounding with the Morgul blade on Weathertop happening at the same time that Gandalf is imprisoned atop Orthanc.

Recall that Aragorn found a stone on Weathertop in a place of recent fire. It had been scratched underneath with what may have been the G rune and 3 strokes. Aragorn speculated it meant Gandalf had been there on October 3, and was in haste or straits not to leave more information. That coincided with great lights or lightning the travelers had seen from a distance on that same date, three days earlier en route from Bree.

Ainaserkewen · 12-16-2003, 02:46 PM

Frodo has alot of crazy dreams throughout his ringbearing career. Hey, he might me phychic?! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] . Some of those dreams, especially the one when he's at bombadil's house, and he has visions of the undying lands, are more than mere coincadences.

Tar-Alcarin · 12-16-2003, 06:14 PM

Nothing in tolkein is coincidince. Everything mirrors somthing that has happened before or in an nother place, (ie When frodo gets his finger bitten off it is not coincidince that that was the same finger on Sauron 3000 years before.) So no, i do not think is.
BTW Ainaserkewen who is that woman in your avatar she is HOT! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Finwe · 12-16-2003, 06:39 PM

Theron, I was talking about Gandalf pacing on Orthanc, not Weathertop.

THE Ka · 12-16-2003, 06:44 PM

Frodo's dreams would be a dream analyist's dream come true. It would really keep anyone guesing their true meanings. When i judge frodo's dreams or try to put them in a sense that i can understand to the largest extent, i compare them to his experince with Galadriel's mirror. For when he looks into the mirror, and how Tolkien explains it, it feels like a dream. Also something that happens to most of us ,and frodo is that events in our lives that affect us greatly seem to play in our dreams and or tell us something we want to know. When i says we want to know , i mean our subconcious selfs. The part of us that really needs to be heard the first time.

I hope that i've given a good description. If i haven't i'm sorry.

oh, by the way, apparently i like:<img src="http://images.quizilla.com/M/MorgaineDax/1039046078_morosecopy.jpg" border="0" alt="Ah, Morose Boromir.">
Morose Boromir

http://quizilla.com/users/MorgaineDa...u%20Desire%3F/ <font size="-1">What Lord of the Rings Male and Mood Do You Desire?</a>
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ah, just great! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Firefoot · 12-16-2003, 07:14 PM

This is an interesting topic. I agree that a lot of Frodo's dreams were "prophetic" if that's the right word for it, because some of his dreams happened after the event he was dreaming about happened.

I thought Frodo had the dream about Gandalf on Orthanc when he was staying at Tom Bombadil's house. Maybe not - I don't have my book here but that's the way I'm remembering it. I also remember that at the Council of Elrond when Gandalf is describing how he was held captive and Frodo mentioned the aforesaid dream that Gandalf said something to the extent of "Frodo, you had the dream long after it actually happened". I sort of destroyed that quote but it was something like that.

Finwe · 12-16-2003, 07:21 PM

KA, please try not to be off-topic like that.

Kalimac · 12-16-2003, 07:34 PM

I'm tempted to quote Chesterton: "Coincidences are a spiritual sort of puns."

Considering what Frodo's just been through, that's a perfectly natural sort of dream to have; it would be stranger if he wasn't having bizarre nightmares. Plus, we have to remember that the Black Riders have already been in the Shire, and he knows it - in his dreaming, he might be remembering Sam's account of the Black Rider's conversation with the Gaffer, so there's a factual basis for the image. But of course it was also a portent that the influence of the Black Riders and their cohorts would damage the Shire.

Unlike the Orthanc dream and the dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, which are a little more purely visionary, I'd be inclined to chalk this one up to fortuitous coincidence. I'm not saying the dream didn't have deeper meaning, just that along with that deeper meaning it also had another source, which was both illness and memory of something that had already happened.

03-11-2003, 07:42 PM	#1
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,549	Frodo's Dream At one point in FotR, I think it's right after Weathertop Frodo has a dream that he is in his garden in the Shire, doing something, but then there is a black shape, obviously meant to be a Black Rider, looking over the hedge. I was wondering: do all you people think it was just a coincidence, a bad dream caused by his wound, or something more? I dunno. I don't have the quote right now, but if you want me to find it, I will. __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

03-11-2003, 09:04 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 802	I think it has a wonderful subliminal message. Thanks for bringing it up, Galadriel. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-11-2003, 09:47 PM	#4
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	I think it's foreshadowing of the ruining of the Shire, and/or the fact that Frodo will never be fully healed by the wound and that the Shire will never be the same to him. He can never enjoy it as he once did. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-12-2003, 06:46 PM	#5
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	I agree to that [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 12:46 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	If I had been chased and wounded by the Nazgul, I'd probably have nightmares about them too. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I think Tolkien uses many of Frodo's dreams to serve as foreshadowing to what is happening at that point in the story or what may happen later. Frodo dreamt that black shadows were around the edges of his garden. By that time, Saruman's ruffians were probably scouting around the edges of the Shire, trying to force their way in. Other "dark" things had also taken notice of the Shire (i.e. Sauron), and were sending spies and minions there. It was also an excellent foreshadowing of the Scouring of the Shire and it probably gave Frodo the realization that there was much more at stake than just his live, the lives of his companions, or the One Ring. He was saving his homeland, which was already under attack. Frodo has yet another "prophetic" dream after being stabbed by the Morgul blade. He dreams of Gandalf, striding back and forth, imprisoned on top of the pinnacle of Orthanc. While Frodo was injured, that was exactly what was happening. My theory is that the wound caused by the Morgul blade caused Frodo's "spirit" to slip out of his body, and search for the person that he knew he'd always trust, Gandalf. True, Aragorn was with him, but Frodo didn't really know Aragorn by then, or at least not as much as he knew Gandalf. After Aragorn treated Frodo's wound with athelas, his "spirit" was "brought back," as it were, and remained in Frodo's body after that, until he was healed. That would explain the visionary dream. Any thoughts? __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-15-2003, 10:25 PM	#7
Theron Bugtussle Wight Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Blowing the froth off a couple in this quaint little pub in Michel Delving. Posts: 147	Finwe, I think your timing is inaccurate concerning Frodo's wounding with the Morgul blade on Weathertop happening at the same time that Gandalf is imprisoned atop Orthanc. Recall that Aragorn found a stone on Weathertop in a place of recent fire. It had been scratched underneath with what may have been the G rune and 3 strokes. Aragorn speculated it meant Gandalf had been there on October 3, and was in haste or straits not to leave more information. That coincided with great lights or lightning the travelers had seen from a distance on that same date, three days earlier en route from Bree. __________________ For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying. -Gandalf, The Two Towers

12-16-2003, 02:46 PM	#8
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 662	Frodo has alot of crazy dreams throughout his ringbearing career. Hey, he might me phychic?! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] . Some of those dreams, especially the one when he's at bombadil's house, and he has visions of the undying lands, are more than mere coincadences. __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

12-16-2003, 06:14 PM	#9
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	Nothing in tolkein is coincidince. Everything mirrors somthing that has happened before or in an nother place, (ie When frodo gets his finger bitten off it is not coincidince that that was the same finger on Sauron 3000 years before.) So no, i do not think is. BTW Ainaserkewen who is that woman in your avatar she is HOT! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-16-2003, 06:39 PM	#10
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Theron, I was talking about Gandalf pacing on Orthanc, not Weathertop. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-16-2003, 06:44 PM	#11
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,522	Frodo's dreams would be a dream analyist's dream come true. It would really keep anyone guesing their true meanings. When i judge frodo's dreams or try to put them in a sense that i can understand to the largest extent, i compare them to his experince with Galadriel's mirror. For when he looks into the mirror, and how Tolkien explains it, it feels like a dream. Also something that happens to most of us ,and frodo is that events in our lives that affect us greatly seem to play in our dreams and or tell us something we want to know. When i says we want to know , i mean our subconcious selfs. The part of us that really needs to be heard the first time. I hope that i've given a good description. If i haven't i'm sorry. oh, by the way, apparently i like:<img src="http://images.quizilla.com/M/MorgaineDax/1039046078_morosecopy.jpg" border="0" alt="Ah, Morose Boromir."> Morose Boromir http://quizilla.com/users/MorgaineDa...u%20Desire%3F/ <font size="-1">What Lord of the Rings Male and Mood Do You Desire?</a> <font size="-3">brought to you by http://quizilla.comQuizilla</a> ah, just great! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?

12-16-2003, 07:14 PM	#12
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,576	This is an interesting topic. I agree that a lot of Frodo's dreams were "prophetic" if that's the right word for it, because some of his dreams happened after the event he was dreaming about happened. I thought Frodo had the dream about Gandalf on Orthanc when he was staying at Tom Bombadil's house. Maybe not - I don't have my book here but that's the way I'm remembering it. I also remember that at the Council of Elrond when Gandalf is describing how he was held captive and Frodo mentioned the aforesaid dream that Gandalf said something to the extent of "Frodo, you had the dream long after it actually happened". I sort of destroyed that quote but it was something like that.

12-16-2003, 07:21 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	KA, please try not to be off-topic like that. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-16-2003, 07:34 PM	#14
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I'm tempted to quote Chesterton: "Coincidences are a spiritual sort of puns." Considering what Frodo's just been through, that's a perfectly natural sort of dream to have; it would be stranger if he wasn't having bizarre nightmares. Plus, we have to remember that the Black Riders have already been in the Shire, and he knows it - in his dreaming, he might be remembering Sam's account of the Black Rider's conversation with the Gaffer, so there's a factual basis for the image. But of course it was also a portent that the influence of the Black Riders and their cohorts would damage the Shire. Unlike the Orthanc dream and the dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, which are a little more purely visionary, I'd be inclined to chalk this one up to fortuitous coincidence. I'm not saying the dream didn't have deeper meaning, just that along with that deeper meaning it also had another source, which was both illness and memory of something that had already happened. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.