Of Bombadillos and Balrogs

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 376</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tom the Maia

Time to copy what I said at another board! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

&quot;I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked, to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, weilding paint and music and drama.&quot;

When Tolkien specifically stated that Tom was an enigma, I think he did it for a reason. In my opinion, it is not our place to call him one thing or another, but to gather facts about him and see him in that manner. Conjecture is useful, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

As for the Balrogs/Wings discussion, I am very confused and cannot go either way. But, for the people using the &quot;The wings are so big that the balrog wouldn't have the energy to fly&quot; argument - We are talking about a Maia with no restrictions on the power it could use in its pysical form on the Middle Earth. Gandalf, who was restricted in strength and power, was obviosly stronger than the old man he looked to be. I remember reading a passage in the Unfinished Tales that said it took 2 strong dwarves to push open the doors of Moria from the inside, and that a dwarf lord may have been able to do it by himself. Well, when you consider that Gandalf travelled through Moria and pushed open the doors himself - it is suprising. Im just saying that a Maia would obviously be much stronger than a normal beast and could have controlled the very large wings.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 849</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
What utter tosh

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When Tolkien specifically stated that Tom was an enigma, I think he did it for a reason. In my opinion, it is not our place to call him one thing or another, but to gather facts about him and see him in that manner. Conjecture is useful, but you have to draw the line somewhere.<hr></blockquote>

Well it's still fun to speculate. Tom must have some explanation attached, what what?


</p>

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 378</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: What utter tosh

Most think that he is an embodiment of Arda, created with or as part of The Flame Imperishable.. truly making him the eldest. That is personally what I think.

Have you ever pondered about what Tom said to the hobbits, even though they couldn't have known the depth of what he was saying. &quot;He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless—before the Dark Lord (Melkor) came from Outside. (The Void)&quot;

And I thought this was a good post by Salmar.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There are some very conclusive arguments against Tom being a maia.
One of these is that his existence is bound to the Earth, which is symbolized by Tom being bound to a specific region.
As a maia he would have existed before and outside Arda. It is is clear that he did not, cannot and will not exist outside of Arda.

The most probable theory in my opinion is that Tom is a transmaterialization of the word Ea, the word with which Eru gave reality to the music of the Ainur. Maybe he has indeed some intrinsic relation to Eru's Flame Imperishable. The Flame is with Eru, but Tom's Realm is its reality in and on Earth.
Tom is not a creator like the Ainur, he is a creature. He symbolizes creation.
To the struggles of the powers, Ainur and Elves and Men, he is neutral as creation itself.
Nothing would tempt him to participate in these struggles or to travel beyond his realm. He does not strive, he just is....Tom. Quite intendedly left by Tolkien to be an enigma. Sure, we can discuss this enigma. But we should not want him to fit at all costs in our division of the powers into orderly categories.<hr></blockquote>

There are many possibilities, but no certainties. I guess some things are better left unexplained. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

P.S. I am getting some of these words from another site, so I think it is appropriate to give a link to it out of respect. http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thevalarguildclubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thevalarguild</a>

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000064>GandaIf The White</A> at: 9/20/01 7:32:45 pm

my opinion: Balrogs had wings, they were fairly large, and they were surrounded in a shadow of evil which most likely skewed one's perception of it's real form...

i'm done now [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the balrog did have wings. It says so in FOTR, when it says that "its wings sretched from wall to wall" or something like that. He wouldn't have said that its wings stretched if it didn't have them, would he?

[Voronwe]

Ahh, but the 'something like that' makes all the difference in this case. Have a look at the passage.

-Voronwe

It certainly doesn't say that it's wings stretched out from wall to wall. In FotR it says, "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Five paragraphs before that FotR states," It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." This first paragraph is describing the power that seemed to fill the air around the Balrog. It even had a physical form like a shadow that spread out before it. When it came up to the fire the shadow seems to even have caught fire and blazed. The description of the shadow reaching out is like it has set its power loose after its prey.
It is a powerful description of a powerful entity. It certainly doesn't imply a winged creature.


"If the enemy opens the door, you must race in."

[Mithadan]

Welcome to the Barrow Downs, Gorolithion and Monti.

Actually, two paragraphs after the "shadow about it reached out like two vast wings" quote, it says "and its wings were spread from wall to wall".

These two quotes represent both sides of the debate. Is it a shadow or is it wings?

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

[Mithadan]

Humphh. My thousandth post was in a Balrog-wings thread? How anti-climatic. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Yes, it does state that it's wings were spread from wall to wall. The next line also states that Gandalf could still be seen through the glimmering in the gloom.
He is still using "wings" to describe the reaching out of the shadow.
Like so, "reached out like two vast wings which spread from wall to wall, but Gandalf could still be seen glimmering through the gloom."
I find the seeking shadow like power of the balrog to be a rather effective way of describing how menacing and powerful they were.


"If the enemy opens the door, you must rush in."

[Halbarad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gorolithion:
[QB]The next line also states that Gandalf could still be seen through the glimmering in the gloom.
He is still using "wings" to describe the reaching out of the shadow.
Like so, "reached out like two vast wings which spread from wall to wall, but Gandalf could still be seen glimmering through the gloom."

-No, it says that there were wings. In addition to the wings there was a cloud of shadow that filled the room.The Balrog was cloaked in shadow, and the wings spread from wall to wall. There is no ambiguity in the statement. It does not say that Gandalf was surounded by the shadow and obscured by the wings. At the battle of Helms deep Gandalf was 'shining in the rising sun' so he could glimmer in a little light no? When Gandalf was glimmering in the doom he was not obscured by the wings or the shadow that looked like wings. What you have said makes little sense. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
Wings and Shadow

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Elenhin]

The text says that there were wings.
It does not say what the wings are made out of (shadow or flesh?), or if the word "wing" is used metaphorically (to describe a wing-shaped shadow in a more lively fashion).

In other words: the Moria passage does not directly tell us whether the Balrog had real wings or not. However, when looking at the whole chapter and other texts of Tolkien's mythology, it can be clearly seen that the Balrogs can't have real wings. (At least, they can't use them to fly.)

That's what I think, anyway.

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Elenhin ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Created with part of the Flame of Arda... just as all Maiar were. I believe he was a Maia; the first one to venture into the new kingdom of Arda. That would make him 'First'. Then, he wandered around among the forests, being Tom Bombadil and not having much to do with the other Valar and Maiar.

Sounds a good enought theory to me. Don't know why everyone disagrees with it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Elrian]

When arda was created Tom may have been the sent as a caretaker along with others. Aiding the Valar when they came and taking over when they left. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Just my humble opinion.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Lot of members with 'E' names around these days, isn't there?

Welcome to the downs.

[Halbarad]

Is ther ea translation for some of these E names or are they just made up? (Mind you I have no idea what Halbarad is translated.)

[Witch King of Angmar]

I do not think that Balrogs had wings. I believe that the Balrog was a huge beast of monsterous proportions composed mostly of fire. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I also think that certainly Tom was not an Iluvatar. He might have been a Valar and Tom was the form that the Valar took, though I could not be certain.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Halbarad:
<STRONG>Is ther ea translation for some of these E names or are they just made up? (Mind you I have no idea what Halbarad is translated.)</STRONG>

ELrond celebRIAN
ELRIAN
star wandering I think it translates to?

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Witch King of Angmar:
<STRONG>I do not think that Balrogs had wings. I believe that the Balrog was a huge beast of monsterous proportions composed mostly of fire. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

When they are at the bridge of Khazad-Dum the book says the Balrogs wing spread from wall to wall.

I also think that certainly Tom was not an Iluvatar. He might have been a Valar and Tom was the form that the Valar took, though I could not be certain.</STRONG>

Bombadil wasn't Illuvatar, nor a Vala, He was more like a Maia. Maybe of Yavannah.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

If he was a Maia (which he was..) then he was a 'free agent', not one of Yavanah's people.

[Orald]

Why is it that you people insist that Tom was a maia, there being no more proof that he is one than him being something else.

Praps even less proof.

[Elenhin]

We know that Tom was not one of the following: Man, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, Orc, Troll, Ent, Vala, Eru, etc. etc.
We are left with only two reasonable suggestions for Tom's origins: he can be either a Maia or something which Tolkien never mentioned elsewhere. I believe in the latter alternative, but I can certainly see why some people like to think of him as a Maia.

[KayQy]

Okay, how about this:

Tom is a Space/Time traveller. Eventually he came to Arda (before the darkness was filled with fear or whatever the quote is, of course) fell in love with it, and settled down. He is either an alien species with immortality or ridiculous longevity, or he just pops into different time periods whenever he feels like it. I think the alien would be more likely, especially since it would help explain why the Ring had no power over him.

Or maybe he's a mass hallucination. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

PS. Why is one of the message icons suddenly a Portugese ad for Telefonica? It makes about as much sense as what I just wrote.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Actually, D, I've uncovered a lot of quite fascinating evidence to suggest that Tom is a Maia. Look back.
And if I hadn't taken a side -- if I kept just throwing random evidence around but didn't reach a conclusion -- what kind of eagle would that make me? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Gwaihir the Windlord:
<STRONG>If he was a Maia (which he was..) then he was a 'free agent', not one of Yavanah's people.</STRONG>

All the Maia served at least one Vala, I have never seen any "free agents" in the book. Melian was a Maia of Este and Vana, gandalf of Nienna and so on.
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Ah, but Tom was different, wasn't he? Different enough to make people question what he was. Perhaps he just enjoyed his own company. If he was a Maia and the First, but belonged to a Vala... well then the Vala would be First rather than bombadil.

[Eol]

It is a great deal of hard workign writing a story as involved and developed at Tolkien- I should know- I am writing a novel of my own with another author.
In responce to who looked like what- that is the fun part about books- there is never one single, correct interperation. As a writer I am thrilled and eager to see another's intereperation- even if it differs from my intial idea when writing. It is insightful.

Concerning Legolas- I have seen people paint him with black hair- is it true that there is no true writing indicating that the elves have ears? I have yet to find one.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

I think that Tom Bombadillo was Beren and his wife was Luthien.

Balrogs? It can't, be proved. Its an unceasing argument that we can't solve.

[Mithadan]

Hmmmm. "...and Beren and Luthien, having assumed their new identities, lived happily ever after, singing songs and collecting water lilies..." While your novel theory (nice to hear a new Bombadil theory for a change) has some visceral appeal, how could Beren be considered "eldest" and wasn't Goldberry blonde whole Luthien was brunette?

[Elrian]

Bombadil may have been the first Maia to enter Arda, But the Maia still served the Valar, who served Eru. It couldn't have been Beren as he wasn't one of the firstborn of his kind.

[Orald]

Ah, but was not it Melkor who was the first of the Ainur to enter into Ea, therefore disproving this already very flawed Bombadil is a maiar theory, if it could even be called a theory.

[obloquy]

Here's a theory for you: Bombadil bounces around and rhymes much like the Riddler from the Batman movie. Riddler's real name was Edward Nygma. E. Nygma. Bombadil = Enigma = Riddler.

? ?
? ? ? ?
? ? ?

[Elrian]

Melkor was the first Valar to enter Middle Earth, Bombadil was a Maia.

I know Im new here but it seems to me that Tom is just an enigma. JRRT included him in the book at the beginning to make his kids happy and didnt really have a background for him. Its unfortunate because JRRT had explanations for almost everything else. But this one thing he forgot to make up an explanation for. There is no explanation for Tom.

Also Balrogs do not have wings. Their shadow is LIKE wings. Dont you think its scarier for them to have a huge "shadow" instead of real wings?

[inglorion]

Ok people, let´s face it: there are passages in the book that imply the Moria-Balrog has wings, however they are not very conclusive. There are passages in the book that imply the Moria-Balrog has no wings, however they are not very conclusive either.
So, in my humble opinion there is no final answer possible, only what you believe to be the right one, and that belief is founded on your own imagination. Strange are the workings of our brains that we can interpret things so differently, but that of course is the whole fun of it; how dull would life be if we all had the same imagination.

As for Tom I have no solution either I´m afraid, but if you insist on classifying him then I would put him in the same section as Ungoliant (probably the only two in that section I can think of): under U of Unexplained [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

greetings, gildor

[Orald]

Okay then Elrian, you find me the text that states this and I will give up and agree with you that Tom is a maia, but until I see where it says that Melkor was the first of the Valar, not anything else, to enter and Tom was the first maia, then I will keep believing that he is not a maia.

why discuss weather Balrogs have wings...there isnt enough description to make any definte statements about them...

[Mithadan]

Wisdom from the mouths of newbies..... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Welcome Enedcolloion!

[Eol]

The subject concerning Tom being a maia...the anwser is very simple...there is no direct anwser. Someone either stated this in a previous comment or I read it somewhere that Tom was a prexisting character before Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings.The case of having a prexisitng character is that there are unseen gaps beause they are developed differently then the rest of the surrounding characters.
There are many things that cannot be clarified because the author himself does not know for sure himself. I have the same flaws with my own fictional characters...

[obloquy]

That doesn't really hold up. If Tolkien had wanted to, or if he'd seen Tom's placement in the story as a flaw, he could have made up some history for him. He had rationalized errors away before. Tolkien specifically and intentionally let Tom's nature remain mysterious.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]