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01-09-2003, 07:56 PM | #1 | ||
Wight
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Frodo at Sammath Naur
From the Return of the King.
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I was curious as to what some of your opinions where on this scene - how much of the decision is Frodo's and how much of it is made up for him but external forces? Also, is Shippey accurate in his analysis or should is he grasping. Your thoughts? [ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: Carrūn ]
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01-09-2003, 08:23 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I always thought Frodo had just been "fully" corrupted by being so close to the Ring's forging place -- like Gollum, he took it as his own, but unlike Gollum, not because he wanted to, but because the Ring made him do it. I think Shippey was pretty accurate in his assessment.
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01-09-2003, 09:27 PM | #3 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I still think that part of Frodo said no, just like any other ringbearer save Sauron. To me, it it just that the part of Frodo that was saying no was blocked by the desire for the ring. He's not fully corrupted, but the side of the ring is in control or the ring itself is in control. It's very complicated and no one knows, we can only guess and assume. But none of the decision is Frodo's, I believe it is the ring's decision. It's really hard to tell, I'll have to think about it some more.
Shippey's idea is interesting, however, I disagree with him on on the arrangement of words. Quote:
Now that doesn't mean that Frodo chose to do what he did, I agree that he didn't. However the reason why is not because of that wording, but because of the ring. I believe that the ring was taking control of Frodo. The ring dominated Frodo's mind, so I believe that Frodo objected, he had no say in that choice. What Frodo wanted to do, that part, was too weak compared to the ring, or at least the ring at that moment. This is a very interesting topic. The information we have is very vague, based on a few paragraphs or less. But I'll leave with a question. It is very similar to Carrun's, but even the slightest change of words and arrangments can have different meanings, as we have seen through Shippey's idea. So here it is: Was it the ring talking and choosing, Frodo talking and choosing, or a mixture of both? Or was it Sauron talking (through the ring or Frodo)? Carrun, if you feel that this is off topic at all, tell me. Thanks for listening.
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01-10-2003, 03:14 AM | #4 | ||
Delver in the Deep
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Quote:
For one of many discussions on the climatic scene, including the fabulous quote Quote:
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01-10-2003, 08:26 AM | #5 |
Wight
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Thanks for the link!
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01-14-2003, 10:29 AM | #6 |
Wight
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I personally believe that none of the decision to claim the Ring was Frodo's. I think by this point he had been so beaten down and weakened by his journey, his wound, the sting and various other maladies that the proximity of the Ring to It's master finally overwhelmed him. Even as he speaks the words, Sam observes that it is with a voice that is not his own.
And I think the wording of the phrase has everything to do with the point. If you read any of the Christopher Tolkien's "The History of The Lord of the Rings," you will see where J. R. R. Tolkien wrote and re-wrote many passages in the book to make the intentions of his characters more clear. Sometimes it was simply a case of rearranging words in a sentence to reflect the nuance that he was trying to illustrate. IF Tolkien was attempting to point out that Frodo had no real choice in the matter, I have no problem believing that the precise phrasing was intentional.
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01-11-2004, 07:01 PM | #7 | |
Delver in the Deep
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Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin (!) are all at some point heard to speak with the words of another. But does this mean that they are not speaking the words themselves, that they have no will in the matter and are possessed, or acting as some kind of conduit? Possibly in Pippin's case this could be true, particularly given the description of the unnatural tone of his voice. What do you think? Was Frodo speaking with his own voice or not? Personally I believe that Frodo had full knowledge of what he was doing. He made the decision himself (albeit under immense pressure from the evil of the Ring), spoke the words himself, and knowingly claimed the Ring for his own.
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01-11-2004, 07:45 PM | #8 |
Deathless Sun
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I think that the words "I choose not to do" explain Frodo's situation perfectly. Choosing not to do something good is just as "evil" or "bad" as choosing to do something "evil" or "bad." It's very easy to get the two confused.
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01-11-2004, 08:19 PM | #9 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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i think the observation of frodo using the words:
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01-11-2004, 09:00 PM | #10 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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I think that it is also interesting how Frodo is using the present tense when he uses verbs. He says "I do not choose to do" instead of "I have not chosen" or "I did not choose". This would seem to indicate that he is at that moment making the choice. It was not five minutes or two minutes or even ten seconds ago, it was right at that moment. If this is then true, then I would say that he at least thought about casting the Ring into Mt. Doom.
It has been said on other threads (I can't think of any right now) that no one could possibly throw the Ring into the fire, not even the strongest willed person in all of ME. It was there that the Ring's power, and Sauron's power working through the Ring, was at its absolute highest. Frodo was able to resist temptation until that point and because of all of this, I would say that it was the Ring's power working on Frodo that caused him to say these things. It was Frodo who said it and Frodo's will to do it but it is only because of and under the immense and evil power that the Ring was exerting on him. As for the fact that his voice was loud and clear, I would say that that is also because of the intense power of the Ring. |
01-11-2004, 09:08 PM | #11 | |
Wight
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Since the topic's been revived I'll add some more of Shippey's comments and my muttered ramblings.
The phrasing of "I choose not do do" vs. "I do not chose to do" could be nothing more than just a particular way of saying the same thing. Assuming it's more it raises additional questions for thought. Shippy ponders whether Frodo has given into temptation or simply been overpowered by evil. Since his words make more sense then mine, here's another segment from page 141: Quote:
Shippey then raises the final question of whether the danger of the Ring is internal and sinful, or external and hostile. Since, according to Shippey, one can never tell for sure when reading the Trilogy, this is one of its greater strengths. We all see (for the most part) the amount of harm we can do to ourselves and others and at the same time see disasters happening that no one can feel any responsibility for.
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01-12-2004, 04:12 AM | #12 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I can't help feeling that the reason the Ring overwhelms Frodo at that point is that he is at his weakest. The Ring offers, or seems to, what the individual feels they lack. Only Tom Bombadil isn't tempted by it because, as Goldberry says 'He is'. ie he is 'complete', not lacking in anything, with no desire for any more power than is innate & natural to him. All the other characters are tempted by the Ring because of what it can offer them - power, control, victory (apart from moral victory). Frodo is at a point when he lacks everything except the strength to stand up - if even that strength isn't given him by the Ring at that point. So he is totally vulnerable to the power of the Ring. He has nothing, probably feels he is nothing, so for him the Ring would be everything. He would possibly feel that to destroy it would be to destroy himself & everything that mattered, or had mattered to him, to replace it with a void, total emptiness, nothingness. The Ring would have suddenly become, for him, the opposite of that. So the choice is the Ring, or the horror of the void. Perhaps it felt like by not destroying it he was 'saving' the world, keeping it in being.
<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:15 AM January 12, 2004: Message edited by: davem ] |
01-12-2004, 08:11 AM | #13 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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davem, good post. Further support for your position can be found on 13 March 1420 Frodo's delirious lament: "It is gone forever, and now all is dark and empty." Especially after his statement "I am naked in the dark, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it with my waking eyes, and all else fades."
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01-12-2004, 04:51 PM | #14 |
Haunting Spirit
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I think that, in the Letters at least (sorry, I don't have them to hand to quote), Tolkien is quite explicit that the choice is Frodo's. Exercising free will was a crucial thing for him. And if Frodo did not fail here, it seriously undermines his decision to leave Middle-earth: his unhealable wounds are not physical (or just physical), they are spiritual also. He knows he surrendered to the Ring at the last- understandably, given the pressure and situation, but still a choice.
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01-12-2004, 07:16 PM | #15 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Several pertinent letters are 181, 191, 192. If you do not have a copy of the letters (and Tolkien's thoughts seriously interest you) I heartily recommend you get one.
Over the past year I have referred to this book more than any other Tolkien resource. "The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter (with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien.) ISBN 0-618-05699-8. (Fifteen bucks for the paperback. "Must-have" for the Serious Tolkien Fan. And no, I don't get a kickback from Houghton-Mifflin for saying so. But why guess what Tolkien might have been thinking when you can just look it up? A brief snippet from Letter 191: Quote:
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01-13-2004, 03:34 AM | #16 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I think the big question is What is the nature of Frodo's failure? More, surely, than simply failing to throw the ring into the fire. Does Tolkien mean that he failed to trust in a higher power, Illuvatar, the Wise, the Valar? Doesn't he take on the 'resposibility' for 'saving the world'? He convinces himself, by the end maybe, that the Ring is all there is, or all that matters. It replaces, for him, any 'higher'/spiritual power. He doesn't trust 'God' to put things right. He feels all will be lost if he destroys the Ring. Essentially, the Ring comes to replace everything for him. His 'failure' is a rejection of faith & trust, & perhaps this is what he feels he cannot go back to. Perhaps he had lost his ability to trust, to have faith in anyone or anything - in this world at least. He gives in to despair - there is nothing for him except the Ring, there is no hope for anything without it. 'Hope' becomes synonymous for him with the Ring. But could any of us throw away all hope & live without.
I wonder if Tolkien is pointing to a lack in this 'Pagan' world of Middle Earth, saying, as he does in the Athrabeth, that Man's salvation must come from outside, by the direct intervention of Illuvatar into his creation, that 'hope' based on things found within the world will always lead to 'failure' like Frodo's? Frodo (& the others seduced by the Ring) seeks to 'save' himself by means of some worldly object, rather than by placing faith in The Authority (as Tolkien put it) beyond the world. I admit I'm fumbling at something now which I can't properly formulate as yet. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] |
01-13-2004, 07:41 AM | #17 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It's getting a bit confusing, and I may be repeating what's above, but:
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This may be saying that he has taken the descision himself not the throw the ring in (ie he failed, he couldn't do it as well as possibly everyone else on ME), but he is not saying he has chosen to CLAIM the ring as his own. i.e. Frodo could have sat there and waited for Sauron to reclaim the ring. But what it MAY be saying is that he was forced / co-erced into CLAIMING it as his own. Therefore: Frodo's has a concious descision not to throw ring into fire, but not a concious descision to claim the ring for himself. |
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01-13-2004, 08:26 AM | #18 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Except that your quote is followed by the simple statement, "The Ring is mine." And then he puts it on.
Another pertinent thread here <font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:38 AM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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01-13-2004, 08:42 AM | #19 | |
Guest
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A scientific equivalent would be matter moving through a vaccume; unless acted upon by another force (i.e. Frodo making a choice to throw the ring in) it will continue to move on its current path, the inevitable path (i.e. Frodo failing), but if acted upon its path changes. Frodo was incapable (as was any mortal in ME I think) of making the choice to alter the "natural state" of things in Sammath Naur. Or at least that is an argument for the situation. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] |
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01-13-2004, 08:58 AM | #20 | ||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Davem,
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Davem, in one sense, I must agree with you. By the end of the book, Frodo is completely unable to trust or perceive anything outside of the closed circle he is in, a circle that contains only himself and the Ring. This is true whether we are referring to the "Authority", Frodo's friendship with Sam, or even the natural world itself. Frodo is unable to perceive any of these basic truths. And there is no doubt that, speaking in regard to human history, Tolkien would have said that our main problems stem from man's inability to turn to the Authority and trust in Him to guide the results. This inability to believe or trust is implicit in this scene in LotR, but it is not what the author has chosen to emphasize. Rather, the heart of the message lies in the flawed nature of Man. This same message comes out again and again throughout the entire Legendarium. Simply put, there is no way Frodo could have won through on his own. The kind of complete belief and trust you are referring to simply doesn't exist in the hearts of men. This is true whether we're talking about the so-called pagan men of LotR (whose ethical example frankly outshines most of our own) or modern man who has, in Tolkien's view, the benefit of a fuller revelation. The flawed nature of man is as true today as it was back in Middle-earth. Just as Helen quoted, we are incarnate creatures and we have limits. To think otherwise is folly! I can cite quote after quote in the Letters that reinforces the view that Frodo, by himself, could not succeed. Here are just two more: Quote:
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If you read the Silmarillion, you are impressed by the fact that it is essentially a story of failure. Yes, there are a few exceptions in the gloom, such as Beren's recapture of the Simaril, but these exceptions are few and far between. Moreover, nowhere does an act by Man or Elf make a serious dent in the power of Morgoth or Sauron, and their hold over the earth. In this context, what happened in the LotR is quite amazing. These poor remnents of the Third Age, largely men and hobbits, are nowhere portrayed as being as great and mighty as the Elves of the First and Second Age. Yet, working together, and with definite help from the Authority (the final scenes at Mount Doom and the scene where Gandalf is sent back to help them), they achieve what no one else has done in the entire Legendarium -- for a short time at least, incarnate evil in the form of Sauron is beaten back. And Frodo is a very important piece of that puzzle. Indeed I would argue that he is the most important piece. What is amazing about Frodo is not that he failed, but that he succeeded to the extent he did. The Authority (and even Gandalf) was well aware of the limited nature of Man. My guess is that Frodo's real task was not to throw the Ring into the crack, which neither he nor anyone else could do, but to get it to the slopes of Mount Doom where something else could take over. Equally important was how he acted on that journey -- the extent to which his behavior reflected the best attributes of man. The mercy that he showed to Gollum, a mercy that was wholly illogical but utterly decent, was the fruit of that behavior. On a personal note, I can not count the number of threads that we've had on the Downs raising the question of Frodo's "failure". It is a discussion that needs to take place with every newbie on the site, because the message of that scene lies at the heart of the LotR and Tolkien's lessons for us. Even so, I keep asking myself "why". Why do people keep raising the question of Frodo's failure, when Tolkien quite clearly says that he is not responsible for that failure, any more than he would be responsible for dying if a giant rock came and crushed him on the head? I think the answer is this. All of us want to be in control of our destiny. We want to be able to do or believe something that will enable us to prevail against the evil we see around us. We don't like to be told "you can't do that because you are too weak or flawed." But that's just what Tolkien is telling us through the figure of Frodo! So we squirm uncomfortably and speculate on ways that Frodo "could have/should have" been a success. Really, all of us are in Frodo's boat. All around us we see evil things, things that need changing. And if we are decent people, we will try to do something about it. But in the end we will fail unless something from outside comes in to help us: family, friends, and ultimately that which lies beyond the circles of the world. That is pretty sobering, and it's definitely what Tolkien believed. Cami/Child/sharon <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:03 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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01-13-2004, 09:44 AM | #21 | |
Dread Horseman
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This quote from Child's post:
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Frodo's 'failure' certainly has been discussed at length here on the Downs, but it's one of those rare topics which bears continuous study and discussion. It's such a complex and dynamic culmination of events and themes that there always seems to be some new angle from which to approach it. |
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01-13-2004, 11:43 AM | #22 | |||
Haunted Halfling
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davem:
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The Ring is, as all here know, a burden Frodo has taken upon himself, and thus in this sense, he has accepted a stewardship, just as Gandalf or even Denethor has, although of a different basic nature. In this sense, the ultimate responsibility is laid on Frodo himself, and he cannot trust it to anyone else. In the end, he cannot relinquish this stewardship, and I agree with the above quotes and what I saw in the Letters--this is a basic flaw in Man, this tendency not to trust or to consign one's fate to a higher power. I recall somewhere that Peter Jackson had described this burden to Elijah Wood as like a bomb that must not be dropped or else the entire world will blow up. Now carry it on a long trip...what would you do? You'd be REAL protective of it; a good person would treat the burden responsibly, but a lesser person would compromise smaller values for larger ones, inevitably. It is to Frodo's great credit that he does not compromise his basic ethics for the sake of this world-affecting burden, and that is his great triumph, overshadowing his failure at Sammath Naur. This 'exercise' also gave me an insight into the description Sam gives of a figure robed in white with a wheel of fire at its breast. Frodo has gone as far as he can go and, as has been described elsewhere, he has been broken down completely, becoming this vessel for clear light to shine through, thus the image of the white robed figure. But at the heart of the matter is the Wheel of Fire, the burden, that must be given up to Eru Iluvatar, or else it will consume even the most pure of heart and intention. Quote:
It is also interesting that Gollum is shown as fully stripped down as well--merely a shell for incarnate lust and greed, the selfish motivations with which he began his stewardship of the Ring. I'm not sure I can come up with anything more at the moment; this post has eaten up much of the last couple of hours (!). But in the course of searching for references online, I did find an interesting article if you're interested: A Bit of Light--Visions And Transformations Of The Ring Quest Cheers! Lyta
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01-13-2004, 12:06 PM | #23 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I never noticed before-- but each time, Sam calls on Elbereth; Frodo calls on Earendel. That's a big difference. Food for thought.
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01-14-2004, 03:40 AM | #24 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Child, Lyta, I agree with both of you. As I said, I'm fumbling after something. The Athrabeth is as clear a statement as Tolkien ever made within his fiction that 'salvation' - whatever you concieve that to mean - can only come from outside, beyond the circles of the world, by the intervention of an external force, therefore, dependence on/faith in any worldly object will only bring failure & ultimately a loss of any kind of hope. Frodo, I think gives in to despair at the end simply because he can no longer see anything beyond the Ring, which is perhaps the 'World', materialism, the Machine. He becomes convinced that the world can olny be saved by something within the world. This is not to say that any of us, having been through what he had, would have been able to do any differently. But is Tolkien saying that that is our nature as fallen beings - that if pushed beyond our limits we will all fall into materialism & rejection of the Authority? He relates the incident at the Sammath Naur to the lines in the Lord's Prayer, but perhaps (though maybe he would not have presumed to state it) he has in mind Christ's cry 'My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?' Perhaps Frodo is at that point of ultimate despair, but whereas the divine Christ can still trust, even in a God he percieves as 'absent', the 'human' Frodo cannot. Frodo 'fails' because he must, because he cannot succeed. Maybe Tolkien is pointing up the inevitability of human failure, that Frodo is not the 'Christ' figure that too many casual readers (& some not so casual, like Humphrey Carpenter) interpret him as. Perhaps it is Tolkien's faith that requires Frodo's ultimate failure at that point. If anything truly 'foreshadows' Frodo's failure at the end perhaps that's it. LotR is the work of a Christian - how could Frodo succeed?
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01-14-2004, 09:43 PM | #25 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Davem,
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This is one of the reasons I probably have little patience with discussions that raise the hypothetical question: "Would "X" have succeeded as Ringbearer? Usually, we insert "Samwise" in the "X" spot, but other names have been suggested as well. The basic point is this: given the nature of Man (and Elves and Hobbits), and the nature of good and evil in Tolkien's world (and implicitly in our own), no one can have "success" as a Ringbearer without outside intervention of some kind. The question is simply artificial, since the job requires more than any carnate being can possibly give.
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01-15-2004, 03:15 AM | #26 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I think we are saying the same thing, as you say. I am, I suppose, trying to make sense of what it is in Frodo which gives in - or if there is any part of him which says 'Yes' to the Ring - ie is he simply broken by what he goes through so that at the end he just lets the Ring do as it will with him, or is there still some part of him which 'sins' & chooses the Ring? And if so, what is it that he is choosing - the World, power,something, anything over the nothingness that seems the only alternative. I hope I haven't come across as condemning Frodo. I don't think any of us could have succeeded, or got as far as he did. Perhaps I'm trying to look into Frodo's soul & see if I can learn anything about myself.
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01-15-2004, 07:48 AM | #27 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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In hisletters (here I go again) Tolkien says that after the Ring is destroyed, Frodo is tempted by two things: one, the desire to have been a hero after all, instead of simply an instrument of providence; and two, he is tempted to still desire the Ring. THe latter statement indicates that Frodo's temptation is simply the desire to possess it. Hence his simple statement: "The Ring is mine." Not, I am now ruler of Sam's- Garden- of- Mordor; not "all shall love me and despair"; not Boromir's "I shall become a great leader, all men will rally to me, and I will become a king, benevolent and wise"; none of that.
Just-- simply-- it's Mine. Finally, finally, it's Mine. Kocher's theory is that the Ring intensifies two desires: one, the desire to dominate the will of others; two, the desire to posess the Ring. Kocher points out that hobbits aren't by nature domineering folk, so (unlike men and elves) the domineering temptation has little power. Bilbo didn't take over the Shire. Gollum didn't take over the Anduin. And Sam, while tempted to make a garden out of Mordor, quickly saw his own inadequacy to do it. Neither does Frodo plan to rule anything. Bilbo's biggest struggle is to give up the Ring instead of posessing it, and he couldn't do it without Gandalf's help. Gollum can't give it up at all, and losing it drove him mad. Sam's desire to possess was mercifully kept in check by his love for Frodo at least. Frodo's desire to possess it niggled at him, or hammered at him, all along the whole quest, I think. He fought it and fought it. But at the Sammath Naur, he couldn't fight it any more. Sin? Yes, I think so; willful sin? I don't think so; Tolkien didn't think so; hence his attitude that Frodo deserved all honor, but did need healing, and was tempted to still desire it. Tolkien said something to the effect that nobody could have resisted the Ring at that point (as Sharon quoted) and Frodo's "fall" certainly should not lessen him in our eyes, since no elf, man, dwarf, or hobbit, or Maia or Vala, could have done better. Edit: Theology... The difference between an 'allegory' and a 'type' is important when discussing "Christ figures." Old Testament individuals who imperfectly foreshadow characteristics of the Messiah are called "Types." There are lots of them. David, Isaac, Joshua... Daniel... on and on, and on. Too many to count. In THAT sense, LOTR has three: Frodo (the suffering servant), Aragorn (the coming King and healer) and Gandalf (powerful, supernatural, wise, and back from the dead.) It's interesting to note that each of these had some sort of deathlike experience. Aragorn travelled for Three Days on the Paths of the dead. Frodo when stung by Shelob was rendered into a deathlike state, and was left for dead by Sam (albeit mistakenly), and imprisoned in a guarded place made of stone. And Gandalf, of course, is just plain resurrected. In a similar vein, Earendil in the Sil is a Christ-"type"; **Not** an allegory; an imperfect foreshadowing. Very important theological distinction. However, I mention Earendil because although Sam calls on Elbereth, Frodo calls on Earendil. Maybe I'm reaching here; but to me that implies that Sam feels the need for light, courage, and comfort; but Frodo feels the need for intercession, deliverance, salvation. Huge difference. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:02 AM January 15, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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01-15-2004, 08:18 AM | #28 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I still wonder what is going on with Frodo. If we accept that he gives into desire in some way, ie, he 'sins' - because if he doesn't, if his will is totally overwhelmed by the power of the Ring he would have no knowledge of claiming it, & therefore no feelings of loss or guilt or failure - then he is claiming the Ring as 'something', ie it will represent something, or the means to something, for him, & he will be giving in to his desire for whatever that thing is.
I've read Kocher's book, but I wonder at this idea of claiming the Ring as a thing in itself - a circle of http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q...v=54&src=derekgold</a>.Is it possible to think of the Ring as just that? Wouldn't one, especially after carrying it all that way, experience it as something more? I just wonder what Frodo thinks he is claiming as his own. |
01-15-2004, 09:25 AM | #29 | |
Dread Horseman
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I just have to step into this interesting conversation to make a point or two:
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And secondly, I respectfully disagree with the last half of that quote. People can feel intense guilt for actions they dont remember committing, even for actions or circumstances they know theyre not responsible for. Incidentally, the thread I linked above attempted to explore that exact question what is that secret desire that causes Frodo to claim the Ring? I dont think its one that can be answered with any certainty, but it can lead to some interesting discussion. |
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01-15-2004, 12:14 PM | #30 |
Illustrious Ulair
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The question is, are Frodo's feelings of guilt 'rational' - ie, did he want, to any degree, to claim the Ring, in which case he is 'justified' in feeling guilty & blaming himself. Or are those feelings 'irrational' - ie, did he feel absolutely no desire for the Ring, in which case he is not justified in feeling guilty. I suppose what I'm asking is 'Did Frodo desire the Ring for himself in any way. If he did feel such desire, then what was it he was desiring - power, control, or was he simply being driven by a desire not to be completely 'lost' - ie had he by that time so completely identified himself with the Ring that it's destruction meant the same to him as his own destruction?' Was there any 'will' on Frodo's part to claim the Ring? Did some tiny part of him say 'Yes' to that 'sin', & is that the seed from which his later feelings of guilt & failure spring? Or was he merely so broken by that point that he had no control, & was almost like an outside observer, watching his body refuse to let the Ring go?
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01-15-2004, 12:36 PM | #31 | ||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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01-15-2004, 02:42 PM | #32 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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I agree with Helen on this. I do think that Frodo actively desired the Ring, and that he fought that desire all the way from Bag-end to Mordor. When he reached Sammath-Naur, the point where the Ring was forged, its power became so overwhelming that he could no longer resist the temptation. Most of us would have caved in far back along the road.
The more interesting question is the one Mister Underhill raised: that of Why? Why did he claim it? Did he desire it for its own sake, as the glittering golden band which held a fatal attraction, with no other intention or thought in his mind? Or were there goals he desired that he could clearly see could be accomplished only by owing the Ring, and hence he wanted it...? It's clear there were hobbits who desired the Ring as the Ring. The three that come to mind are Smeagol, Deagol, and Bilbo. None of them really understood the power of the thing, so they could only respond to its intrinsic pull rather than desiring to create or take over something with it. OK, maybe Smeagol/Gollum wanted to be king of a pond with a lot of fish, but I don't think that was his chief desire! He simply wanted to hold the thing in his hand. But that temptation for the Ring alone was strong enough to cause a hobbit to murder another hobbit, the only such incident of murder among the hobbits that we know about. Frodo's case was different. And I also think Frodo's personality was very different than the three other hobbits. First, he does understand that the Ring has power and that it could allow him to do 'impossible' things he desired. If I had to guess (which is all it is), this is what I would say. First, judging from the severity of his attacks, and the manner in which he withdrew from other people in the Shire, Frodo was feeling very, very guilty about what had happened. I don't think that guilt stems solely from Sammath Naur, although that was obviously the biggest thing. I think the seeds of that guilt were planted on the journey itself as Frodo reflected on the Ring. Some of this reflection stems from the second difference in Frodo's case, which is his particular personality. Let me explain. My guess is that both issues were involved -- the desire for the Ring as an object, and the desire to accomplish something with that Ring. All those days of trudging across the face of Middle-earth! Surely at some point he asked himself "what if". We are rarely let into Frodo's head the way we are in Sam's or even Merry and Pippin. We see Frodo largely through their eyes (also Gollum's). But we do know certain things about Frodo; he was very reflective for a hobbit and a little more withdrawn, polite, and formal than some other hobbits. Not totally, mind you -- he could still dance on tables, sing bath songs and had rosey cheeks. But by the end of the tale, even this cheerful behavior would fade, to be replaced by a kind of gentle formality. Moreover, Frodo strikes me as the kind of hobbit who would run things through his head more than once. And for a hobbit, that would indeed be unusual! For example, the kind of questions he poses to Gandalf about "why me" must have spun through his mind a thousand times before. And what other hobbit would have looked at Faramir's men facing the West to honor Numenor and what lay beyond and wished that his own people had such a custom? To be quite blunt, Frodo is a hobbit who, on occasion, looks and acts more like an Elf! He has a light growing in his eyes, and Gandalf speculates that it will ultimately shine through his whole body like the Phial of Galadriel. Samwise speaks of his wisdom, hardly a typical hobbit trait! He is called "Elf-friend" early in the book and can even speak a bit of the language. And what other hobbit, one of the people with "no religion", would wish that his own kind had a custom like that of Faramir's men, a custom which comes mighty close to "worship" in my eyes. This Elf-like nature of Frodo probably made him more resistent to the evil of the Ring, but it may also have opened him up to some of the same shortcomings that the Elves had.....specifically, the desire to preserve and embalm. How many times did Frodo lie awake at night thinking what he could do if he had the Ring? I think that is a real possibility. What did he want? I think Mithadan nailed it on an earlier thread. I am paraphrasing his words... 1. The one thing we know is that Frodo loved Bilbo more than anyone. My comment - Bilbo was getting older, and he was going to die soon. The fact that Frodo had no wife and that he had lost his parents at the age of twelve (and Tolkien had also lost his!) makes this desire to cling to Bilbo even more understandable. 2. Frodo loved the Shire; he wanted it to be the same for him as when he left. My comment - That's not possible, of course. The Shire, at least the book Shire, had changed slightly. More importantly, Frodo had changed vastly. There is, I think, a third option. Part of Frodo expected to die, and in a sense wanted to die. This would be the crowning glory of his sacrifice. I think there are two things Frodo can be "faulted" on (and only two!): he was sometimes reluctant to rely on others (i.e., running off from the Fellowship and later withdrawing from people in the Shire), but wanted to do things his own way (maybe he got some of this from Bilbo's stubborn example!), and I get the sense part of him not only accepted his sacrificial role as Ringbearer but even welcomed it a bit. Dying would have put the cap on that sacrifice. But if Frodo did not die, what "future" would there be? My guess is that, according to his Elf-like nature, he wanted to preserve things: just as Mithadan said, he wanted Bilbo to be with him forever, and he wanted to have the same happy relationship with the Shire he'd had before. Indeed, Frodo, like many of us, wanted to stop the world from whirling forward so fast! And the Ring was one way to do that. In the Fourth Age, which was the beginning Age of the Dominion of Men, the hallmark would be change because that is Man's true nature. Old ways inevitably faded and new ones came in. Perhaps Frodo could even see this? After all, later he would tell Sam about how many children he would have, so he might have known a thing or two he kept to hiumself. How could Frodo ever fit into such a world given his internal hurts and his Elf-like proclivities, causing him to cling to past people and places? Sam, yes; but Frodo, no. So perhaps Frodo chose to say "It is mine" in hopes of regaining control and preserving what had existed in the past. But providence intervened, and he was ultimately afforded entry to Elvenhome, the place where nothing changes, so he would have the time and setting to deal with his hurts. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:58 PM January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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01-16-2004, 03:34 AM | #33 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I still, I suppose, wonder if Frodo understood what the Ring actually was. I agree with everything you say about what the Ring meant to Frodo, Child, & in that case, his claiming of the Ring is not a 'sin'. But was there another part of his mind which knew exactly what the Ring really was, & exactly what he was claiming, & that that claim could ultimately damn all of Middle Earth to Sauron's domination, & was he saying 'Yes, I'll even accept the possibility of that if there's a chance I can preserve my old life in the Shire with Bilbo. I'll gamble the world against getting what I want'. To what extent is his claiming of the Ring at the end based on a desire keep things as they were, with no thought or knowledge of what Sauron would do when he inevitably took the ring from him, or did Frodo acknowlege the possibility of Sauron taking it from him & still decide to risk it? Does Frodo 'sin' - by deciding that what he wants is worth risking the suffering of every being in Middle Earth to achieve - does he consent to that possibility, or does he not 'sin' - which would be the case if you're right & his desire is only for things to go on as they had been. In the end that would determine for me whether his feelings of guilt & failure at the end have validity or not.
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01-16-2004, 09:50 AM | #34 |
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davem, you need a copy of The Letters. Go buy one or borrow it from the library!
Child, I spent all last evening scanning the letters for discussions of what the One Ring does. Preservation is mentioned, but in the same discussion that preservation is also discussed as the "thin, stretched, wire-pulled-tighter or butter scraped over too much bread" kind of preservation. No more life, just prolonging, so it becomes a torment. Frodo didn't personally hear Bilbo speak his "Thin, like butter" line, so perhaps he was less aware of it than Gandalf (or us). I guess I'm still struggling with the idea that Frodo would have fallen for that deception. He's brighter than that. I don't think he would have wanted to see Bilbo "stretched" and just continuing. I think he would have turned from that idea. And really, how would the Ring have prolonged Bilbo's life? Is there any evidence that a Ring of power prolongs anybody mortal's life besides the bearer/wearer? (Are you including "The Mouth of Sauron" in the list of the things that the Ring preserved, even though Sauron wasn't wielding it during the War? I'll have to think that one over.) As far as saving the Shire: Same question. If he had access to one of the Elven Rings I can see your point. But the One Ring wasn't made with preservation in mind, was it? Frodo said to Faramir, "Would you have two Minas Morguls grinning at each other?" He had seen the Ringwraiths face to face; he knew what "neither living nor dead" means. I don't see that as much of a temptation for him, nor turning the Shire into another Minas Morgul. He always shrank from that sort of thing. But all along the trip, he kept saying "The Burden is Mine." He was (I think) proud of carrying it. And the martyr's complex there is pretty obvious. So-- for preservtion of The Shire (and Bilbo)-- I see that he would want those things, yes, but I'm just not convinced he'd buy the Rings' offer to do it. He knew better, and I think his "good hobbit sense" would have told him (as it told Sam) that such things would not be. But-- "I begin to see it with my waking eyes." All he could see was the Ring; he couldn't SEE the Shire anymore; I don't see how he could be clinging to it anymore. So I go back to his own words at Sammath Naur-- not "Now I can save The Shire", but simply and directly, "The Ring is mine." I really think that's the core of it. I think by Sammath Naur he'd even been stripped of The Shire, just as he said. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:08 AM January 16, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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01-16-2004, 03:42 PM | #35 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Seeing as Letters has been mentioned a few times, I took a look at HOME to see what was said regarding Frodo at Sammath Naur.
Not that I totally agree with them, but it is interesting to see Christopher Tolkiens observations regarding the changes his father made to the Mount Doom section in his Histories of Middle Earth series. Who am I to disagree with him? Anyway, CT has a very certain view on Frodos inability to complete his Quest: From the first draft of Mount Doom: Quote:
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01-16-2004, 06:26 PM | #36 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Taking these words alone, the inevitable consequence of Frodo's decision not to choose to destroy the Ring is that it will not be destroyed by him. Since he is consciously not choosing a course of action that would result in the destruction of the Ring, he is effectively choosing not to destroy it. But the answer may be found in the other words that he speaks in any event. The full quote is: Quote:
I agree with those who have said that he could not have chosen to destroy it. No one (with the possible exception of Tom Bombadil [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) could have chosen to do so. But that does not mean that it was not his choice not to destroy it. It is simply that he was powerless to resist making that choice. The distinction is important, I think. The fact that it was his choice not to destroy it, albeit one which he could not resisit, is what leads to his later feelings of guilt. The one thing which still puzzles me from the quote is the meaing of the words: "The Ring is mine". Does he decide not to destroy the Ring because he already regards it as his own, or does he decide to claim it as his own having decided not to destroy it?
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01-16-2004, 11:03 PM | #37 | ||
Beholder of the Mists
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Well this is an amazing thread, with many amazing responses. I will try my best to make a meaningful contribution [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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(I know this sounds weird, and it had already most likely been said before, but I just had to say something.) Quote:
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01-17-2004, 02:46 AM | #38 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Helen, I have the Letters, but its about a year since I last read them, so I suppose I should go back (if there is any real going back [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ).
But as far as I remember (but I do, I admit, have a rather Butterburesque memory), Tolkien doesn't go into this question of what the Ring actually Frodo meant to Frodo at that point - I think Child has just given us more insight into Frodo's feelings at the end than is there, explicitly, in Tolkien's letters. My own question, what exactly is Frodo claiming as his 'own', what is he claiming to be 'mine', what does he concieve it to be, still remains, I think. |
01-17-2004, 10:55 AM | #39 | |||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Saucepan Man,
You raise a question and Gorgwingel refers to this as well: Quote:
See the quotation below from Helen's post which is part of an argument where she questions whether Frodo would have been thinking of the preservation of the Shire and Bilbo when he claimed the Ring (or at least had seriously considered this option at some point on the long road through Mordor). Quote:
This was my reasoning in regard to the whole question of "preservation." Whoever wielded the One Ring would clearly have power over the other lesser Rings. Here, I am thinking of Nenya which obviously exercised some kind of a preserving power in Lórien. The type of preservation exemplified there seemed different than the "stretched out" kind of preservation that a bearer of the One Ring would experience. Certainly, it seemed gentler. And since the bearer of the One Ring could eventually command the others, even though the Elven Rings were presently hidden, he or she would have the ability to weave a web of protection around the Shire, similar to Lórien. I didn't see Frodo hoping to turn the Shire into Minas Morgul, "neither living or dead". Instead he wanted a kind of Lothlórien, the meaning of which is "blossom-dream-land". Those kind of dreams must have looked pretty attractive to a bent and weary Frodo. Of course, all his desires would have been an illusion. The One Ring would surely have swept away all goodness, from both Lórien and the Shire, and nothing could have withstood its corruption. But it may have been a believable illusion to Frodo as he contemplated his choices on the trudge through Mordor. Regarding your comment...."his 'good hobbit sense' would have told him (as it told Sam) that such things would not be." I'm not so sure.... If you look in Sauron Defeated, there are five outlines and one very early sketch that touch upon the Mount Doom scenes. Of these the sketch and three of the outlines directly deal with Frodo's decision not to destroy the Ring. First, just to show how certain Tolkien was that no one could throw away the Ring.... When Tolkien first began the book, before "Frodo Baggins" even existed as a separate character, and before the Necromancer was fully replaced with Sauron, the author put forward the idea that the hobbit bearing the Ring (Bingo) could not throw it away. So Frodo was truly doomed even before Tolkien put his pen to the page! (The italics and question mark occur in the original text.) Quote:
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Regarding Saucepan Man's question whether Frodo already had a sense of owning the Ring. It seems to me, according to this draft, that Frodo did not have a clear sense of ownership of the Ring prior to Sammath Naur. Indeed, in outline 1, this is stated more clearly. Again, the italics are not mine... Quote:
None of this, however, made its way into the final book. So did Tolkien reject these ideas? I'm not so sure.... There were ideas in the earlier drafts that Tolkien clearly rejected by putting comments in the margin. For example, he speculated that Gollum would be reformed and voluntarily jump into the Fire with the Ring. Beside this, JRRT put a great big "No" in the margin. (Interestingly, this is the same idea he later mentions in his Letters.) There were other ideas in the earlier outlines that Tolkien clearly refuted by offering a different version in the book. For example, except for the very first sketch, the earlier drafts speculate that Sam pushes Gollum into the pit. This would have been a big change from what we finally got in the end. Sam would have been a "hero" in a more conventional sense and the hand of Providence would be less evident. Tolkien clearly rejected this. But what about this idea of Frodo being tempted? Tolkien nowhere rejects it. He simply doesn't allow us to get inside the hobbit's head in the final scenes. But there are things here that do ring true. (Pardon the pun!) the Letters specifically mention that Frodo wanted to be a "hero" and that this was one reason he suffered. He simply couldn't accept being a mere instrument of Providence. Doesn't this tie back with the scene depicted in the earlier draft? So perhaps this was going on inside Frodo's mind; only we can't see it. And how typical of Frodo to think of himself as a great King not in terms of battles or power, but rather of feasts (how Hobbitish to think of food!), songs, flowers, and poetry. I am also drawn to the line with Sauron "offering Life and Peace." Again, to me, by definition, that life and peace would have to come to Frodo in the context of a preserved Shire with Bilbo by his side. Of course, we'll never know. The final scenes are presented by Tolkien in a more cryptic manner. We have less of an idea what's going on. But the more I look at HoMe, the more I think that this whole train of thought may still have been going on inside Frodo's mind (and Tolkien's). But JRRT chose not to share it with the reader. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:18 PM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
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01-17-2004, 03:05 PM | #40 | |||
Haunted Halfling
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One portion of Letter 246: Quote:
My previous thoughts on Frodo's inability to ultimately trust to Eru and the unknown in his fate seem to me to tie in to this delusion of reformed rule that Frodo seems to have experienced. The vision, as Sharon points out with excellent HoME references above (which I lack in my 'library', so am very thankful to see here!) points to the blossoming and prosperousness of this imagined new realm, his dream to "save the Shire." Somehow it seems he cannot imagine saving it without having a direct hand in it, without maintaining control in this way. In other words, it points directly to Frodo's inability to reliquish control, his need to be a hero in the traditional sense. I hope these thoughts added something; I'm sure there is more to it, but I wanted to add a few bits of flying debris from my whirling conscious brain before I lost them! (I, also have a Butterbur-ish tendency to forget things!) Cheers! Lyta
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