To love, or not to love fantasy

[Nenya]

littlemanpoet: [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Wish I had your gift of rhyming... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Ah, the the feeling of "them and us". I bet the nazis had a strong feel of "us"... but on the other hand there would probably never have been a peacemovement without them having the "us"-thing. (I must create a new word. how about "usness"? oh well, maybe not)
The thing is to remember to try and understand "them" also.

[Cúdae]

So many thoughts, so little time. I return to this thread after a few days of way too much Christmas spirit and fan-fiction finishing and I find far more insights than I ever expected!

Great posts everyone!

On the subject of realism or not-so-realism, I will say, you can find realism in any book under the sun. When people say fantasy has no realism, I take it upon myself to ask them how a book can be written without some element of realism. A writer is a real person, in the real world (well, maybe not some of the crazier ones...like Emily Dickinson, but I won't go there), and the real world is reflected in writing. That's where the whole time period thing comes from. A book will reflect the real time it was written in. Hence the differences between between Shakespeare, Charles Dickins, and Tolkien. They all reflected the real world of their time in their writing. So maybe the fantasy books are all pretty much pond scum now because the world we live in is pretty much pond scum too. But then again, Tolkien's world was probably pond scummy too. But pond scummy in an entirely different way. He didn't have to deal with internet scum, and telemarketer scum, and nuclear plant down the street scum...

On the question of escapism... Fiction is, by generally accepted definition, entirely or partially imagined events. Historical fiction would be the exception into the area of "partially" imagined. So, isn't all fiction an escape then? What's the difference between escaping into fantasy and escaping into romance? Nothing, if you ask me, besides that fact that you are probably far more likely to find somebody using a gun not a bow in a romance novel.

And on the subject of guns versus swords (which of course I can't keep my mouth shut about)... I hate guns as well and view swords as honorable. I know there are dirty tricks in swordfighting, but something seems more honorable about fighting someone face to face rather than behind a barrier using a bazooka and never looking your enemy in the face. It's all about eye contact. The eyes are the window to the soul and when you look your enemy in the eyes, you might just understand a little more about him.
I think I'll stop there.

And one more thing... Fantasy is not science fiction but science fiction can be fantasy and vice versa while overlapping romance with non-fiction and eating a candy bar at the same time.
That is from my eigth grade literature class. I've never forgotten it. Makes very little sense, but perfect sense at the same time.

I apologize for the confused nature of this post. Christmas is getting to me.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Cúdae ]

[Nenya]

Cudain: In your otherwise great post, there was one thing I have to comment : as has been said before, there is NOTHING more honorable about killing with a sword than with a gun. Yes, it probably is harder, but in no circumstances is killing another human being anything near honorable. It is only the last option, in a situation where a life is anyway bound to be lost. We tend to romanticize the past, thinking that putting a soldier into an armoury and calling him a knight makes the actual thing, killing, a more noble thing. It doesn't. Dying from a stab of a sword is usually even more blodier, painful and slower. And I don't think that sticking someone with a blade makes you anymore braver, than shooting a person with a gun does.

Phew. Well didn't I sound like a right little activist... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And sorry for the repeating, all of this has been said earlier in this post, and more eloquently.

[Cúdae]

Maybe I should have said "seems more honorable." You made a good point, killing isn't honorable in anyway. But I will say that killing someone who is trying to kill you first probably would not be quite as bad. But that's just my opinion- I've never been exactly an "activist." [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Another thing you broght up that I believe factors in with why certain people like fantasy books is the fact that we do romanticize the past. Maybe the idea of knights in shining armor and archers dressed in all green and swordsmen defending noble ladies is appealing to people and they expect to find that in a fantasy book. Whether they do or not, the expctation may stay in the back of their mind, causing them to keep reading and keep loving fantasy.

[Alphaelin]

As a person who loves Tolkien but dislikes a lot of the fantasy on the bookshelves these days, I would like to say that people respond to his books for many valid reasons: the language, the themes, the creative force behind them.

In my case, I am drawn first by the incompleteness of Middle-Earth. LOTR, The Hobbit and The Sil are all presented as parts of one history. (To paraphrase Sam Gamgee, he and Frodo are in the same story as Luthien and Beren, just further on.) Often in fantasy and sci-fi, there is a tendency to explain every last aching detail of background, leaving nothing for the imagination to do except form mental images. In Tolkien, there's endless room for the reader to speculate, ponder and fill in for him/herself.

Reading the UT is as exciting as reading about the latest finds in archeology in the real world - another piece of knowledge which answers some questions yet whets the curiosity even more.

Sorry if this post is short or incomplete; it's after 4 am here and I must sleep. I just had to respond before getting offline.

[Orual]

Exactly, Alphaelin! Part of the appeal of Tolkien's works is the complexity of the world he created. Someone once commented on the "incredibly rich backdrop" of the Lord of the Rings (that was doubtless paraphrasing on my part, as I can't remember who said it), which adds a whole new dimension to the story that isn't there in almost any other story. The characters have a history to refer back to, stories that they heard as children, which we in turn can hear. The detail in the Lord of the Rings sets it apart from most (if not all) other fantasy, which is (mine included) very much all on the surface. The fact that you can dip so much further into the Lord of the Rings makes it a real joy to read.

~*~Orual~*~

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes, well said Alphaelin. Curiosity is one thing that keeps me reading. If there was nothing left to our imaination and everything was developed and explained to the fullest, leaving no loose ends, then boredom would be soon to sink in. I find that everytime I read any of Tolkien's works (especially LotR) I always learn something new and find myself pondering different questions. I always want to know more, but never do I want to know all. And besides, like you said

fill in for him/herself

When you can do that it makes the world so much personal and likeable to your own appeal. It's up to your mind to develop what you think is beyond. And that way, you'll always love it. Because your mind makes up what you want, not someone elses idea, but yours. And great thing about Tolkien's works is that you can form your own personal image about anything he left up to you to decide. It's unique in its own from and differs from anybody elses. Tolkien's works are kind of a blend between what he made and what he allows you to make yourself. It just makes it so realistic (its own history contributees to that a lot too, as Orual said), enjoyable, and personal.

[littlemanpoet]

Anybody read LeGuin lately?
I admire her EarthSea greatly.
It has incompleteness and wit,
seems a real place though a bit
less breadth of history, after all
her hundreds of years pale
by comparison to Tollers'
thousands. His genius is taller,
but her vision is profound
at least within my literary bounds. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Purple Elf]

I personaly love fantasy i was brought up by my mum reading me the hobbit and folk tales about dragons and elves ect so i suppose thats from my parents. Not 2 keenon science fiction tho and sometimes that can be hard when the genres are mixed, i prefer comic fantasy aswell hey anything to make me laugh. Also has anyone here read the Gormengast trilogy im reading it now and tis sooo cool! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[greyhavener]

I don't know why everyone likes fantasy, I think I know why I like it. I sometimes find in fantasy a physical construct for an interior journey. The twenty-first century is in some ways a graceless and selfish age. In Tolkien, Lewis, L'Engle and some other fantasy writers I find something noble and powerful and good. There is often in fantasy not only the head-on battle against evil forces, but a link between being noble and defeating evil. This encourages me to manifest a nobleness into daily life, perhaps rendering a random act of kindness into something that shoots holes into the darkness.

[Merri]

I think I posted a topic like this in the summer, but that was a long time ago, so it doesn't count [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

What I'm going to say has probably been said before, but anyhow: I don't think you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy fantasy. However, I do think that you have to have an imagination, an appreciation for things out-of-the-ordinary, and an ability to dream.

It's something I feel very clearly in my heart, so I thought it was going to be easy to explain, but it's a lot harder than I originally thought. I hope this makes at least a little bit of sense.

[littlemanpoet]

It does to me,
Merri;
and nobility;
imagining well is to
see true.
There's more, too,
but wrapped in mystery
and history
imagined
or real
hmmmm...

[Nenya]

Anybody read LeGuin lately?

I have! And compleately agree with you. BtW, her potrayal of the dragons made me fall in love with those wonderful creatures.

[ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: Nenya ]

[Airedae]

i think personally, lovers of tolkien tend to want to understand the true emotions of life, the hardships, the battles of the heart and soul. those books tend to reach way down and bring out things that you have to embrace. others that dont want to are afraid to embrace whats inside of them. that may be way off base but thats what ive always thought about people who didnt want to give tolkien a chance. fantasy defiently has its levels. though personally, ive never felt comfortable with tolkien being put in the catagory of fantasy. just because something doesnt exist in our world does not mean it does not exist at all....many things exist in our hearts that make these things real. i think tolkien was a story teller of life, of the hardships of the human state....but thats just my opinion in a very large bowl of other opinions..im open to others opinions too...in not someone that is overly sensitive about other opinions..i just know how i feel about tolkien and his work..... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lady Of Light]

AAAhhhh fantasy.... I know that it takes a certain type of person to enjoy it, though I'm not at all sure what that type is. My father absolutely cannot comprehend fictional writing. He can explain to you most anything scientific or philisophical that you like, but tell him that a unicorn has a horn on it's forehead and he will give you a blank stare and say, "I don't get it... what's the point?"
I however cannot live without reading all kinds of fantasy. If I finish the first book in a series and I don't have the second, I usually freak out. I have always had an untameable imagination, and not long ago I discovered the channel for it. I'm now writing a fantasy novel, and I am determined to make it good. It really sucks now, but it gives me great joy to dream and think of names for places and wonder how things come together for my beloved protagonists.
Fantasy has become something very real to me, and I believe that you must let go of all your inhibitions to enjoy it fully. I like to act and sing too, and many of my friends do the very same things and love Tolkien.
And I'm sorry, but I'm a hopeless romantic and I find all the love stories positively beautiful...*sigh*
A rare breed, we fantasy lovers are...

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the Downs, Lady of Light.
Your post was bright
with the joy of Faerie;
caution begone, be not wary;
don't ever stop loving
imagination's weaving. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[vanwalossien]

I think all who have posted on this thread have made excellent points, making me very confused, because there are so many good answers to the question. Rather that trying to comment on all the other replies, here’s my ‘answer’ to the original question:

The only thing that I have been able to find that all of us have in common is simply our ability to like fantasy. Lots of my friends didn’t like the LotR movies, because “it never could’ve happened in real life”. They never bother to read books, if they did; I think they would get a pleasant surprise. I have tried to explain that it could have happened (OK, maybe not that bit with magic rings and stuff (but who knows?), but evolution could’ve made hobbits instead of humans and Elves too, though I doubt if they’d be immortal…). So maybe we’re just a little more open-minded?

I’m addicted to reading (seriously, if I don’t get to read anything I get stressed, I once brought my science book from school on a holiday, because I desperately needed something to read), but still, to me fantasy isn’t about escaping our reality, I think it’s more about escaping our time. One of my favourite fantasy novels (or actually series of novels, but anyway) is Katharine Kerr’s Deverry-series, and I think I like it because (and not despite) of the fact that people there aren’t just clean, white-wearing good guys or filthy, ugly dark wizards. There are shades of goodness and darkness. A very wise good-guy Nevyn who works as a chirurgeon is once tempted to let one of his enemies die when he tends him after a battle and sees that his wound is about to go septic. He doesn’t do it, but only with a wrench of will does he manage to fight off the temptation. And even the worst of bad-guys has an excuse to be so bad. He sought to the Dark Path of magic to get back on people who treated him extremely badly.

So it isn’t that I escape from our reality into a place where it’s obvious what’s wrong and what’s right. It’s the time I’m fascinated with; the Middle Ages have always intrigued me, and a great number of fantasies take place, if not in the middle ages, in times when the technology level of their civilisation was about the same as it was in Europe in the middle ages.

Magic has also always fascinated me, and where, pray tell, do we find both Middle Aged exotic civilisations and magic? I always liked Katharine Kerr’s Jewish-style magic (she claims that it is based upon old Jewish magic, I wouldn’t know) better than Harry Potter’s "wave the wand and zap –you’re dead"-magic, because Kerr’s seems more real. Fantasy is fantasy, just about anything can happen if the author wants it to happen, but it still needs a believable feel to it. I like Deverry because of its very human people, where no one is all good or all evil, and because of the magic. Harry Potter I like because it has the same shades, and because Rowling is so brilliantly good at describing young Harry as a normal boy, he’s afraid and lonely, he has arguments with his friends and so on. Tolkien has a bit of all these things (well, the man was a genius wasn’t he?).

So, I’ll try to make a conclusion here…
I think we’re all a little more inclined to believing ‘unbelievable’ things, and have a general interest in the themes of fantasy. That’s all I could find (I could’ve made this post a lot shorter, right?). Just one thing: We’re not all geeks. No way. I’m geek, but one of my classmates, who also loves Tolkien, is a real babe, you know, pretty girl whose main interests lay in clothes, boys and parties. She’s very intelligent; perfectly well of aware of the fact that she’s pretty, and a bit b*tchy at times. Absolutely no geek in any sense of the word.

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[greyhavener]

I guess what I find in Middle Earth is a tangible story the reflects what goes on unseen in this "humdrum work-a-day, death-and-taxes, rush-hour-traffic so-called "reality" we deal with every day" as Littleman poet so aptly puts it. Everyday sombody casts a ring into the Cracks of Doom though a decision to change heart or deeds. Everyday somebody wakes up from the trance of a Grima Wormtongue and decides to become a hero instead. Everyday each one of us makes our true name that, as the ents say, embodies all that we are, longer and hopefully more beautiful. Fantasy (at least the fantasy I like) affirms nobility and honor in an age that often rejcts grace and dignity and truth. That is why I love Tolkien's work.

[littlemanpoet]

Vanwalossien: Thanks for the deep thinking. I think we're talking about a certain kind of intelligence. I understand your attempt to "dumb-down" to your acquaintances to get them to open their minds, but the "could have happened" argument is doomed to failure from the get-go. As greyhavener said, it's in the applicability to our lives.

greyhavener: hee hee. Sure is nice to be quoted. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Everyday sombody casts a ring into the Cracks of Doom through a decision to change heart or deeds. Everyday somebody wakes up from the trance of a Grima Wormtongue and decides to become a hero instead. Everyday each one of us makes our true name that, as the ents say, embodies all that we are, longer and hopefully more beautiful. Fantasy (at least the fantasy I like) affirms nobility and honor in an age that often rejcts grace and dignity and truth.

Eye poppingly excellent words, greyhavener. I especially like the bolded and italicized parts. Wow! I like your sig, too. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[vanwalossien]

Vanwalossien: Thanks for the deep thinking

Wow, this is certainly the first time anyone has accused me of doing deep thinking, please tell me you weren't joking [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I never really thought the "could've happened" argument would work, nothing works on my somewhat stubborn friends(I'm just as stubborn, I shouldn't talk). But it could've happened couldn't it?

~Vanwa

[Yavanna Kementari]

I LOVE FANTASY. I have always believed that the fantasies that we read about are not to far off from actuality. Have you ever heard " A rumour starts with a kernel of truth"? Well I believe this. I always pictured Heaven like a big real life Fantasy!! I don't know [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Any way I think people that are in touch with their inner child are more incline to have more fantastical adventures. I am married to a man that likes Fantasy but not like me. He says because I role play and write fantsy that I am sickly obsessed! I don't think so.
And if I am soo what! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] SO I say when you love, love with all your heart!! -Yavanna

[littlemanpoet]

Maybe I'm crazy, maybe not,
but I allow myself to believe
that the worlds the writers weave
will truly be in some spot
of time and place
according to the grace
of Eru's wondrous Song;
maybe it won't be long.
As Yavanna Kementari wisely says,
maybe heaven is the place...

[Cúdae]

Alright, the inner child idea is something I can identify with, but not totally. I think some part of the person must be "in touch" with their inner child, but another part of the person must be "in touch" with their inner adult. (This "in touch" concept is just beginning to dawn on me.) The child part is the part of the person that still believes that dreams can come true- that one day, you'll be walking down the street and a fairy will fly down towards you. Alright, maybe not exactly that, but I think you get my point. The adult part is the part of the person that has some knowledge of the "real" world- war, death, road-rage, new babies, springtime following winter, rush hour traffic, etc. When those two co-exist perfectly within a person, maybe that's when a person loves fantasy.