Eldarin kingship and succession

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I will a more detailed answer later, but I think there are two points I need to bring up.

1. There is no reason to assume that the Sindar and the Noldor have the same culture or ideas when it came to the succession. As we see they have different languages.

That is certainly a possibility. Although I'm not sure whether such customs would have changed the same way as languages did (if we assume that the changes in the languages of immortals who, on a regular basis, should be able to talk to their great-great-great-great-parents on a regular basis, makes all that much sense).

Another important thing to consider is that Lúthien most certainly embodies the noblest union in the entire history of Arda. Lúthien trumps any Vanya insofar as her status is concerned. If Ingwe is the High-king of all Elves then Lúthien (and Dior) most certainly could make a case to be the rulers/monarchs of Beleriand/Doriath or the high-king/queen of the Sindar.

Melian's special status might very well have changed Lúthien/Dior's status.

The facts as we have them are that no female has ever claimed the High Queenship of the Noldor, no female has ever been a Queen of the Noldor and no descendant of Finwe through the female line has ever been king either.

The published Silmarillion seems to refer to Idril as Turgon's heir. I'm not sure whether this comes from JRRT and I'm right now not able to double-check that. However, I'd not be surprised if that was the case. Was Maeglin's desire for Idril not partially caused by his wish to (possibly) succeed Turgon?

The idea that Beren-Lúthien could have inherited Thingol's crown and co-ruled Doriath under other circumstances doesn't seem far-fetched. If so, then Idril and Turgon (and eventually Eärendil) might have been able to do the same. Especially if Turgon had accepted Tuor as his foster son - which he seems to have done, in a sense, when he married Idril to him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

That is certainly a possibility. Although I'm not sure whether such customs would have changed the same way as languages did (if we assume that the changes in the languages of immortals who, on a regular basis, should be able to talk to their great-great-great-great-parents on a regular basis, makes all that much sense).

I am not an expert in language, but even the Queen's accent and pronunciation has changed in the last quarter of a century. New generations were being born and I imagine that despite having regular contact with their ancestors they were making slight changes to the language. Feanor certainly was improving on things.

However, when it comes to culture I can see many reasons for there to be a great change. The Noldor were not lower down the hierarchy and power scale in Aman. They lived a life of peace if in a limited space. The Sindar had wide lands to roam in and always knew should they roam too far there were dangers.

Another important thing to consider is that Lúthien most certainly embodies the noblest union in the entire history of Arda. Lúthien trumps any Vanya insofar as her status is concerned. If Ingwe is the High-king of all Elves then Lúthien (and Dior) most certainly could make a case to be the rulers/monarchs of Beleriand/Doriath or the high-king/queen of the Sindar.

I think the Sindar would actually except this. From the way that Legolas speaks about Elrond's sons, I think the Sindar even in the third age would have excepted Elrond as their King. Legolas shows reverence to Aragorn, because of his descent from Luthien. Luthien is the the most noble and the most beloved of the elves.

I have always thought it strange that Arwen is referred to as Queen of Elves and Men? Does it refer just to the colony of Elves that Legolas has in Ithilien or something greater?
[QUOTE]
Melian's special status might very well have changed Lúthien/Dior's status.[/QUOTE}
I wouldn't be surprised if it did as would Luthien's own great deeds.

I think one thing that has to be taken into account is that the Noldor had come to fight a war against Morgoth. The position of High King was also a military one. Tolkien tells us the difference in strength between Elvish men and women was much smaller than ours, but still for other reasons it was predominantly men that led the armies of the Eldar. Perhaps the Noldor decided for this reason to have only men inherit the High King title.

This is similar to what Numenoreans in both Gondor and Arnor do when they return to conflict in ME.

The published Silmarillion seems to refer to Idril as Turgon's heir. I'm not sure whether this comes from JRRT and I'm right now not able to double-check that. However, I'd not be surprised if that was the case. Was Maeglin's desire for Idril not partially caused by his wish to (possibly) succeed Turgon

Does it? I can't recall. I do know that Maeglin thinks to himself Turgon has NO HEIR, which implies that Idril was designated as Turgon's heir. That's one of the reasons why he is keen to go to Gondolin.

The idea that Beren-Lúthien could have inherited Thingol's crown and co-ruled Doriath under other circumstances doesn't seem far-fetched. If so, then Idril and Turgon (and eventually Eärendil) might have been able to do the same. Especially if Turgon had accepted Tuor as his foster son - which he seems to have done, in a sense, when he married Idril to him.

I have no doubt that Luthien alone let alone with Beren could have ruled Doriath, but they had done the impossible and taken a Silmaril from Morgoth. As I said before they also came from a different culture.

Tuor is certainly the leader of the survivors after the Fall of Gondolin. Perhaps you are right, but Tuor did not press his claim, because it would lead to conflict.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Does it? I can't recall. I do know that Maeglin thinks to himself Turgon has NO HEIR, which implies that Idril was designated as Turgon's heir. That's one of the reasons why he is keen to go to Gondolin.

As far as Idril and Gondolin goes, it is possible that Idril could have been Turgon's heir to the throne of Gondolin yet not a potential Heir of Finwë as High King--after all, Gondolin was a new realm, even if its ruler belonged to an established Royal House, and a realm, after all, whose subjects included a significant number of Sindar (I can't remember whether Tolkien says one-third or two-thirds, but that's somewhat insignificant to my argument).

What's more, it's also possible that Turgon hadn't definitively ruled on the subject--even with the precedent of kings dying well-established, it would be consistent with Elven nature not to require a succession plan (a chain of command, yes, but Turgon hardly intended on his realm being overrun). It is entirely possible Maeglin's opinion on the matter was merely one of many.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not an expert in language, but even the Queen's accent and pronunciation has changed in the last quarter of a century. New generations were being born and I imagine that despite having regular contact with their ancestors they were making slight changes to the language. Feanor certainly was improving on things.

Well, what Feanor did should/would actually be seen by the Elves as a presumptuous messing with tradition. That is, if we take the Elves seriously as an immortal race whose very nature was to be, well, immortal and unchanging.

They would be the ultimate conservatives. A young elf would not learn how things are and are supposed to be sitting at the feet of his/her parents and grandparents, but at the feet of all his paternal and maternal ancestors (especially in Aman and on Eressea).

What right could an elf like Feanor have to mess with the way his elders spoke?

The idea that such beings would make (or allow) such changes leading to the development of Quenya and Sindarin is actually very unlikely. I mean, Elwe lived from Cuiviénen throughout most of the First Age - the idea that his brain/mind went to various stages of Elven tongues from the proto-forms to Sindarin just doesn't make any sense. Nor does it make any sense that there were only two generations between the speakers of the earlier forms (Finwe, Míriel, Ingwe, etc.) and Quenya as Feanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, etc. brought it back to Middle-earth.

Languages need time to change, and the Elvish languages would realistically needed much more time to change - and, more importantly, many more dead fathers and grandfathers. Many generations of Elves would have to be cut off permanently from their forefathers and the way they spoke.

I mean, our languages only change because old people die and the young can establish new forms and ways to express themselves. If the old would not go away then we would all speak more or less the same language for centuries if we assume we would still speak to each other - but even if we didn't we would be still able to understand our elders because they would have taught us their way of speaking when we were young.

But that's a separate issue.

However, when it comes to culture I can see many reasons for there to be a great change. The Noldor were not lower down the hierarchy and power scale in Aman. They lived a life of peace if in a limited space. The Sindar had wide lands to roam in and always knew should they roam too far there were dangers.

It is, perhaps, also to be questioned where the kingship stuff originally came from.

If we go with 'the eldest rules' kind of thing to explain Ingwe's exalted position then this is fine, and could also shed light on the status of the early elves whose kings (Ingwe back at Cuiviénen included) would be more chieftains rather than kings.

I guess the whole kingship thing is more some sort of the Eldar beginning to emulate the Valar who also have their Elder King. And Elwe certainly would have learned about the Valar from Melian and earlier from Orome and during his visit in Valinor.

What the high-kingship of the Noldor essentially is seems unclear to me. That seems to be more some sort of honorary title, perhaps symbolizing the role Finwe had back in Valinor for them.

But it is quite clear that pretty much nobody of the Exiles pays the high-king any mind (especially the Feanorians), and there is no hint that Fingolfin or Fingon have any right to interfere with, say, Finrod, Maedhros, or Turgon set up their own realms.

In that sense I don't see any good reason why the hell a descendants through the female line (or perhaps even a woman or her husband by right of his wife) could also clain the high-kingship if we are sort of in agreement that this might have been happened also with Noldorin kingdoms like Gondolin.

I mean, Turgon clearly had only one child, so his successor would have been either Maeglin or Idril-Tuor/Eärendil, all of which would have been his kin through the female line.

Unless we make some perhaps not so justified assumption about the nature of the high-kingship (military/supreme leader, etc.) then there is actually no reason to believe why a woman or the male descendant of a woman should inherit it.

Celeborn also has supreme authority over all the domains of Galadriel by the right of his wife despite the fact that he is inferior to her in mind and (spiritual) strength (just as Elwe Singollo clearly was inferior to Melian). But in Tolkien's world the men rule, not the women. The consorts of kings - even Galadriel - restrict themselves to the roles of wife, mother, and counselor, not monarch. In Doriath and Lórien Thingol and Celeborn made the decisions, not their wives. They were asked about their opinion and usually the ruler did follow their counsel (or should better have done so) but neither Galadriel nor Melian actually ruled.

They were 'queens', of course, in a sense, but queen consorts, nor queen regnants. Kings need female consorts, after all. And in that sense Idril most certainly was in a very powerful role in Gondolin as the first woman of the kingdom, filling in for her own lost mother and aunt (at least after Aredhel's death).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Celeborn also has supreme authority over all the domains of Galadriel by the right of his wife despite the fact that he is inferior to her in mind and (spiritual) strength (just as Elwe Singollo clearly was inferior to Melian). But in Tolkien's world the men rule, not the women. The consorts of kings - even Galadriel - restrict themselves to the roles of wife, mother, and counselor, not monarch. In Doriath and Lórien Thingol and Celeborn made the decisions, not their wives. They were asked about their opinion and usually the ruler did follow their counsel (or should better have done so) but neither Galadriel nor Melian actually ruled.

I'll come back to the other points later, but this view seems egregiously off the mark. To say that "Celeborn has supreme authority" misses the mark by quite a measure. If anything, Galadriel and Celeborn were coeval in rule of their land, and in everything else, Galadriel was the superior, a leader among leaders. She called the White Council, it was her power in conjunction with her Ring that stayed the hands of time in Lothlorien, and it was Galadriel at Dol Guldur who "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed," at the end of the War of the Ring. Galadriel let Celeborn parade around with his shiny army while she did the major work in Middle-earth.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'll come back to the other points later, but this view seems egregiously off the mark. To say that "Celeborn has supreme authority" misses the mark by quite a measure. If anything, Galadriel and Celeborn were coeval in rule of their land, and in everything else, Galadriel was the superior, a leader among leaders. She called the White Council, it was her power in conjunction with her Ring that stayed the hands of time in Lothlorien, and it was Galadriel at Dol Guldur who "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed," at the end of the War of the Ring. Galadriel let Celeborn parade around with his shiny army while she did the major work in Middle-earth.

Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit there. What I meant to say is that Celeborn was the man and the Lord of Lórien. He wore the pants - at least publicly. How Galadrien and Celeborn's private arrangements were is another matter (as is what happened behind closed doors). I guess he deferred often to her and followed her counsel.

As to the White Council - Celeborn himself is never mentioned as a member but one assumes he was part of it, too.

However, if you read how things are described in Appendix B then Celeborn is mentioned a lot more than Galadriel. He leads the army, he takes Dol Guldur, he meets with Thranduil and comes to a new agreement with him.

Yes, Galadriel is mentioned as the one cleansing Dol Guldur, but nobody ever doubted she was strong and powerful with this kind of stuff.

The question is - is her power in that department (or her general wisdom and power) transferring into power in the political field and making her the official number one (i.e. a sort of Ruling Lady/Queen) instead of Celeborn. And I think the obvious answer to that is no.

Just as Thingol was the unquestioned ruler of Doriath (despite that the fact that his precious realm was completely dependent on the Girdle of Melian just as Lórien was on Nenya in the Third Age), Celeborn would have been the unquestioned ruler of Lothlórien.

Another hint in that direction is that it is Celeborn who first addresses the fellowship in LotR, not Galadriel. If he had been the ruler/number one it would have been her prerogative to do this. But she doesn't.

In that sense I find the idea of Celeborn and Galadriel originally setting up the kingdom of Eregion (either as monarchs or mere lords) only to be eventually overthrown by the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under Celebrimbor a very plausible scenario. We see how Celegorm and Curufin are able to influence public opinion in Nargothrond against both Finrod and Orodreth, and one could easily see the Noldor-smiths being less than pleased with deferring to some Sinda and his Noldor wife, be she Galadriel or not. Especially not when they were at odds about Annatar and/or the 'Rings of Power' agenda of the Mírdain.

And this seems to me to be completely in agreement with JRRT's general view of women. They all have, in essence, supplementary roles as helpers, healers, consolers of men - none of them is active in a man-like way (i.e. as a hero, leader, warrior). And those who try to do so are either punished or at least criticized for it - Galadriel, Aredhel, Éowyn. Even the Ruling Queens of Númenor are portrayed as somewhat unpleasant women - Ancalime ends the support her father has granted Gil-galad against Sauron, Telperien is described as proud and willful, and refuses to marry and give birth to an heir, and was one of the first monarchs of Númenor who came very close to rule until the day she died. And Vanimelde was a weak ruler who allowed her husband to play king, leading to him usurping and withholding the crown from his own son upon her death.

This is all not very favorably towards the concept of a female ruler.

And one can actually salvage a little bit from that by actually accepting the dates for Telperien's reign from TLoE, making her, and not Minastir, the victor over Sauron's armies in Eriador. She would most likely have dispatched a navy under the command of Minastir her nephew and heir, but considering that she would have been the Ruling Queen at this time the victory over Sauron would have been hers, and that would actually be pretty neat...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit there. What I meant to say is that Celeborn was the man and the Lord of Lórien. He wore the pants - at least publicly. How Galadrien and Celeborn's private arrangements were is another matter (as is what happened behind closed doors). I guess he deferred often to her and followed her counsel.

Deferred often to her? He wore the pants? Do you actually think he did anything without her consent? I mean, really, think about Celeborn's situation. You are married to the most powerful Noldorin Elf left in Middle-earth, born before Ungoliant and the destruction of the Two Trees, who, by the way, learned arcane secrets at the feet of Melian the Maia, oh, and who just happened to wield one of the Three Rings of Power, and also had enough innate power to destroy Dol Guldur single-handedly - after the One Ring was destroyed and the Three lost their power. There is enough information in the books that implied coequal rule within Lothlorien, but outside the bounds of that land she was one of a handful known as the Wise and a leader of the Free Peoples. There are three Ringbearers, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, who were the most prominent. No one gave a Ring to Celeborn.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

As to the White Council - Celeborn himself is never mentioned as a member but one assumes he was part of it, too.

Doesn't matter, Galadriel convened the Council. That Celeborn is barely mentioned speaks volumes as to who wielded the power in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

However, if you read how things are described in Appendix B then Celeborn is mentioned a lot more than Galadriel. He leads the army, he takes Dol Guldur, he meets with Thranduil and comes to a new agreement with him.

He had to do something. Think how embarrassing his situation would be if Galadriel also led the armies, in addition to protecting Lothlorien under her mantle. There's a reason the Fellowship felt a drastic change in weather once they entered those enchanted woods.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Yes, Galadriel is mentioned as the one cleansing Dol Guldur, but nobody ever doubted she was strong and powerful with this kind of stuff.

You make it sound like all she did was get out a scrub brush and a bucket to spiffy up Dol Guldur. The exact line is "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

The question is - is her power in that department (or her general wisdom and power) transferring into power in the political field and making her the official number one (i.e. a sort of Ruling Lady/Queen) instead of Celeborn. And I think the obvious answer to that is no.

A king would have say so in regards to political alliances outside his realm, yes? Galadriel handled that, not Celeborn.

I will leave you with a quote from Galadriel:

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

How does Celeborn fit in there? Is he mentioned? He's the "King" supposedly (they are referred to as Lord and Lady, which doesn't necessarily imply one has precedence over the other), shouldn't Galadriel dutifully hand her sovereign the Ring, since he "wears the pants"? What part would Celeborn play if Galadriel actually took the Ring? My guess would be a hasty divorce in Las Vegas, and if he survived, exile in the Dead Marshes.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Deferred often to her? He wore the pants? Do you actually think he did anything without her consent? I mean, really, think about Celeborn's situation. You are married to the most powerful Noldorin Elf left in Middle-earth, born before Ungoliant and the destruction of the Two Trees, who, by the way, learned arcane secrets at the feet of Melian the Maia, oh, and who just happened to wield one of the Three Rings of Power, and also had enough innate power to destroy Dol Guldur single-handedly - after the One Ring was destroyed and the Three lost their power. There is enough information in the books that implied coequal rule within Lothlorien, but outside the bounds of that land she was one of a handful known as the Wise and a leader of the Free Peoples. There are three Ringbearers, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, who were the most prominent. No one gave a Ring to Celeborn.

Well, if you put it like that you really make the man look like a clown in comparison to her. But we should keep in mind that he was at least as old as she was, and presumably resided with her in Doriath (or was there even before she came across the sea).

Now, I don't know what version of Celeborn's origin you prefer, but in any version that is not the original Nando version - which is the one actually used in the text of LotR when Galadriel remarks that she came to Celeborn - he certainly has the chance to be a wise guy in his own right.

He wouldn't have as much Noldo knowledge from the Valar, but he also had the chance to learn stuff from Thingol and Melian.

He had to do something. Think how embarrassing his situation would be if Galadriel also led the armies, in addition to protecting Lothlorien under her mantle. There's a reason the Fellowship felt a drastic change in weather once they entered those enchanted woods.

That is one way to see it. I'd say it is improper for a woman in Tolkien's world/mindset to lead an army, regardless how much power she actually wielded. She simply couldn't do that, and that puts the actual visible/political power back in Celeborn's hands.

You make it sound like all she did was get out a scrub brush and a bucket to spiffy up Dol Guldur. The exact line is "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

I know that. I don't want to make Galadriel appear weak. I know she is very powerful.

A king would have say so in regards to political alliances outside his realm, yes? Galadriel handled that, not Celeborn.

Hm. That alliance between the Greenwood elves and Lórien was made by Celeborn and Thranduil. Galadriel isn't mentioned. Whether the White Council was some sort of political body is questionable, too. We don't really know what that was besides a debating society for the Wise who claimed to keep a watchful eye on Sauron and his servants (they seemed to have done a very awful job at that considering that it took centuries before one of them decided to investigate Dol Guldur personally, not to mention that none of them actually ever attacked the place or urged Gondor to do so).

I'm also not sure whether Galadriel actually convened the meetings. We know she instigated the formation of the council but that doesn't mean she was in charge. Saruman was, after he had been elected, and the fact that he was also indicates that Galadriel's influence wasn't that great. We also know that the meeting in TA 2851 was in Imladris, so one could assume that Elrond also had the authority to convene a meeting (or at least invite the other guys to join him). The meeting before the attack on Dol Guldur was most likely in Lórien considering that this would have been closest it, but we don't know that for a certainty. It could also have been at Isengard.

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

How does Celeborn fit in there? Is he mentioned? He's the "King" supposedly (they are referred to as Lord and Lady, which doesn't necessarily imply one has precedence over the other), shouldn't Galadriel dutifully hand her sovereign the Ring, since he "wears the pants"? What part would Celeborn play if Galadriel actually took the Ring? My guess would be a hasty divorce in Las Vegas, and if he survived, exile in the Dead Marshes.

That's actually a very interesting quote. Especially the last part. It illustrates how Tolkien imagined Galadriel as Dark Lord would have ruled. As a femme fatale, a woman who would have subdued and dominated anyone in Middle-earth by the power of her beauty, basically. There is no mentioning of the strength of her armies, the power of her mind, or the sharpness of her sword. Just compare that to the Song about Gil-galad or ask yourself how Gandalf would have been described as Dark Lord. Nobody would have said that 'all shall love him and despair'.

I actually assume that a Dark Lord Galadriel would actually still have had Celeborn to do the manly stuff for her. Sure, she would have sat on a throne and her word would have been law, and all. But Celeborn would have led her armies and would have done the manly stuff.

Galadriel's temptation clearly is political power and rule, and I really think her character (development) greatly suffers from Tolkien's late attempt to make her holier (and Celeborn her companion since Aman is irreconcilable with all the established facts about Celeborn). And I think part of Galadriel's sins could also be seen in the fact that she wants to rule over men in a way she is not supposed to. This is not touched upon directly, of course.