Eldarin kingship and succession

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit there. What I meant to say is that Celeborn was the man and the Lord of Lórien. He wore the pants - at least publicly. How Galadrien and Celeborn's private arrangements were is another matter (as is what happened behind closed doors). I guess he deferred often to her and followed her counsel.

Deferred often to her? He wore the pants? Do you actually think he did anything without her consent? I mean, really, think about Celeborn's situation. You are married to the most powerful Noldorin Elf left in Middle-earth, born before Ungoliant and the destruction of the Two Trees, who, by the way, learned arcane secrets at the feet of Melian the Maia, oh, and who just happened to wield one of the Three Rings of Power, and also had enough innate power to destroy Dol Guldur single-handedly - after the One Ring was destroyed and the Three lost their power. There is enough information in the books that implied coequal rule within Lothlorien, but outside the bounds of that land she was one of a handful known as the Wise and a leader of the Free Peoples. There are three Ringbearers, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, who were the most prominent. No one gave a Ring to Celeborn.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

As to the White Council - Celeborn himself is never mentioned as a member but one assumes he was part of it, too.

Doesn't matter, Galadriel convened the Council. That Celeborn is barely mentioned speaks volumes as to who wielded the power in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

However, if you read how things are described in Appendix B then Celeborn is mentioned a lot more than Galadriel. He leads the army, he takes Dol Guldur, he meets with Thranduil and comes to a new agreement with him.

He had to do something. Think how embarrassing his situation would be if Galadriel also led the armies, in addition to protecting Lothlorien under her mantle. There's a reason the Fellowship felt a drastic change in weather once they entered those enchanted woods.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Yes, Galadriel is mentioned as the one cleansing Dol Guldur, but nobody ever doubted she was strong and powerful with this kind of stuff.

You make it sound like all she did was get out a scrub brush and a bucket to spiffy up Dol Guldur. The exact line is "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

The question is - is her power in that department (or her general wisdom and power) transferring into power in the political field and making her the official number one (i.e. a sort of Ruling Lady/Queen) instead of Celeborn. And I think the obvious answer to that is no.

A king would have say so in regards to political alliances outside his realm, yes? Galadriel handled that, not Celeborn.

I will leave you with a quote from Galadriel:

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

How does Celeborn fit in there? Is he mentioned? He's the "King" supposedly (they are referred to as Lord and Lady, which doesn't necessarily imply one has precedence over the other), shouldn't Galadriel dutifully hand her sovereign the Ring, since he "wears the pants"? What part would Celeborn play if Galadriel actually took the Ring? My guess would be a hasty divorce in Las Vegas, and if he survived, exile in the Dead Marshes.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Deferred often to her? He wore the pants? Do you actually think he did anything without her consent? I mean, really, think about Celeborn's situation. You are married to the most powerful Noldorin Elf left in Middle-earth, born before Ungoliant and the destruction of the Two Trees, who, by the way, learned arcane secrets at the feet of Melian the Maia, oh, and who just happened to wield one of the Three Rings of Power, and also had enough innate power to destroy Dol Guldur single-handedly - after the One Ring was destroyed and the Three lost their power. There is enough information in the books that implied coequal rule within Lothlorien, but outside the bounds of that land she was one of a handful known as the Wise and a leader of the Free Peoples. There are three Ringbearers, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, who were the most prominent. No one gave a Ring to Celeborn.

Well, if you put it like that you really make the man look like a clown in comparison to her. But we should keep in mind that he was at least as old as she was, and presumably resided with her in Doriath (or was there even before she came across the sea).

Now, I don't know what version of Celeborn's origin you prefer, but in any version that is not the original Nando version - which is the one actually used in the text of LotR when Galadriel remarks that she came to Celeborn - he certainly has the chance to be a wise guy in his own right.

He wouldn't have as much Noldo knowledge from the Valar, but he also had the chance to learn stuff from Thingol and Melian.

He had to do something. Think how embarrassing his situation would be if Galadriel also led the armies, in addition to protecting Lothlorien under her mantle. There's a reason the Fellowship felt a drastic change in weather once they entered those enchanted woods.

That is one way to see it. I'd say it is improper for a woman in Tolkien's world/mindset to lead an army, regardless how much power she actually wielded. She simply couldn't do that, and that puts the actual visible/political power back in Celeborn's hands.

You make it sound like all she did was get out a scrub brush and a bucket to spiffy up Dol Guldur. The exact line is "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

I know that. I don't want to make Galadriel appear weak. I know she is very powerful.

A king would have say so in regards to political alliances outside his realm, yes? Galadriel handled that, not Celeborn.

Hm. That alliance between the Greenwood elves and Lórien was made by Celeborn and Thranduil. Galadriel isn't mentioned. Whether the White Council was some sort of political body is questionable, too. We don't really know what that was besides a debating society for the Wise who claimed to keep a watchful eye on Sauron and his servants (they seemed to have done a very awful job at that considering that it took centuries before one of them decided to investigate Dol Guldur personally, not to mention that none of them actually ever attacked the place or urged Gondor to do so).

I'm also not sure whether Galadriel actually convened the meetings. We know she instigated the formation of the council but that doesn't mean she was in charge. Saruman was, after he had been elected, and the fact that he was also indicates that Galadriel's influence wasn't that great. We also know that the meeting in TA 2851 was in Imladris, so one could assume that Elrond also had the authority to convene a meeting (or at least invite the other guys to join him). The meeting before the attack on Dol Guldur was most likely in Lórien considering that this would have been closest it, but we don't know that for a certainty. It could also have been at Isengard.

“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

How does Celeborn fit in there? Is he mentioned? He's the "King" supposedly (they are referred to as Lord and Lady, which doesn't necessarily imply one has precedence over the other), shouldn't Galadriel dutifully hand her sovereign the Ring, since he "wears the pants"? What part would Celeborn play if Galadriel actually took the Ring? My guess would be a hasty divorce in Las Vegas, and if he survived, exile in the Dead Marshes.

That's actually a very interesting quote. Especially the last part. It illustrates how Tolkien imagined Galadriel as Dark Lord would have ruled. As a femme fatale, a woman who would have subdued and dominated anyone in Middle-earth by the power of her beauty, basically. There is no mentioning of the strength of her armies, the power of her mind, or the sharpness of her sword. Just compare that to the Song about Gil-galad or ask yourself how Gandalf would have been described as Dark Lord. Nobody would have said that 'all shall love him and despair'.

I actually assume that a Dark Lord Galadriel would actually still have had Celeborn to do the manly stuff for her. Sure, she would have sat on a throne and her word would have been law, and all. But Celeborn would have led her armies and would have done the manly stuff.

Galadriel's temptation clearly is political power and rule, and I really think her character (development) greatly suffers from Tolkien's late attempt to make her holier (and Celeborn her companion since Aman is irreconcilable with all the established facts about Celeborn). And I think part of Galadriel's sins could also be seen in the fact that she wants to rule over men in a way she is not supposed to. This is not touched upon directly, of course.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

one would have to assume that Ingwe must either be identical with the first unbegotten Elf, Imin, or at least be of his line because else it would be difficult to explain how Ingwe could usurp or rise to the kingship of the Vanyar (and, in fact, all the other Elves) if he was just some random elf who ended up traveling with Orome to Aman.

That doesn't necessarily follow. We know that Elves who had been in Aman were physically and mentally enhanced, very obvious and perceptible traits emphasized at various points early in the LR as well as the Silmarillion. Elwe, Finwe and Ingwe might well have been "just random Elves" with the stones to accept Orome's rather daunting proposition, but when they returned they would have been perceived immediately as "a cut above." Still, given Tolkien's predeliction for noble lineages I venture that if asked he would put those three in the hereditary lines of Imin etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On linguistic changes: have you read Quendi and Eldar, and The Shibboleth of Feanor? Tolkien commented that the Elves delighted in change, including changes in language; they altered their tongues often not because they had to but because they chose to. (Extreme consrrvatism seems to have been a trait of the "fallen" Elves of the later ages, engaged in a sort of cultural taxidermy.)

-----------------------

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We all know that Galadriel really wore the pants, but at the same time she was careful to observe the polite fiction that her hubby was the senior. Note how to the Company she is always talking about "the Lord of the Galadrim" being and doing this and that, even though it's obvious she's in charge.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Instead, the Eldar (and perhaps all the Quendi) have a specialty of their own. They are immortal and even if slain they never leave the circles of the world. A royal succession makes little for them and is actually a contradictory concept which only makes (some) sense under the special circumstances of Arda Marred (in the sense that a dead king in Middle-earth cannot really return to his people so that for pragmatic another king has to take his place).

Therefore it makes sense to grant administrative rights of the king to still living successors, especially in war-time. But the *true king* of, say, the Noldor would always remain Finwe, regardless where the hell his fea was hanging out right now,

And we know that the kingship can be given to the heirs of a king, usually a son or otherwise close descendant, if a king is actually slain.

That in fact raises a very interesting issue, one which indicates that sometimes Tolkien allowed his sense of drama to outweigh strict adherence to the internal consistency of his subcreation: why did Feanor and Fingolfin nearly come to blows over who was Finwe's heir? In Valinor it simply didn't matter: nobody ever died there (Morgoth's intervention being completely unanticipated). "Heirship" generally would have been utterly meaningless among the Amanyar.

Yet when Tolkien added this massive expansion to The Silmarillion circa 1958 it added the driving force necessary to propel the story forward from the rather tedious history text the 1937/51 version was.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

That doesn't necessarily follow. We know that Elves who had been in Aman were physically and mentally enhanced, very obvious and perceptible traits emphasized at various points early in the LR as well as the Silmarillion. Elwe, Finwe and Ingwe might well have been "just random Elves" with the stones to accept Orome's rather daunting proposition, but when they returned they would have been perceived immediately as "a cut above." Still, given Tolkien's predeliction for noble lineages I venture that if asked he would put those three in the hereditary lines of Imin etc.

I've just listened to the audiobook version of Sil_77 again and Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe are clearly only described as lords of their particular tribes at this point.

So perhaps we should go with the assumption that the 'divine aspect' of Ingwe's kingship either came later or was greatly enhanced later when his nobility of age and his nobility of rank/mind blended each other. From the very day he took his place at Manwe's feet he would have been pretty much sacrosanct for all eternity.

And considering that the concept of 'kingship' in general (in comparison to 'lordship' or being a chieftain) seems to only have come up after contact with the Valar was established the early leaders of the Quendi would have been simply been elected/chosen rather than ruling by right.

But then, the ones they would have chosen would have been their elders, those they thought knew better or more than the most of them.

The proto-Teleri might have been more egalitarian/less inclined to look to their special elders because the Cuiviényarna mentions that the later groups Imin, Tata, and Enel stumbled upon were already awake when they met them. So they would not be so inclined to look to the Three Old Guys for leadership (unlike those who were woken by their elders).

And that fits well in with the fact that Lenwe, Nowe-Círdan, and presumably others rose to lead part of the Quendi, not to mention those original Avari leaders.

On kingship in Valinor:

We can interpret the whole thing as the kingship not being fully developed as a concept. Finwe's descendants are all hungry for glory and lands of their own. The whole struggle who is in charge instead (or immediately beneath) their kingly father might have been the way how the half-brothers dealt with their ambitions.

The fact that the question of Finwe's succession is actually an open question after Finwe's death can be seen as confirmation for both - that the kingship/royal succession was basically a non-existent or not very well established concept (with death being a non-issue) and that primogeniture wasn't as important as one might think. Feanor had many followers, but Fingolfin did, too. Finwe's second marriage brought a rift in the entire house which could not be healed by Feanor stating that he was the elder and thus the guy in charge.

In that sense we should, perhaps, not assume that there were fixed rules for the succession of the Noldorin high-kingship in Middle-earth.

And perhaps Gil-galad only took the high-kingship after the War of Wrath, anyway? I mean, after the Fall of Gondolin there was only one elven kingdom in Beleriand, anyway. If you want to call the dwellings of the Elves at the Mouths and on Balar a 'kingdom'.

I've read both 'Quendi and Eldar' and 'The Shibboleth of Feanor'. It has been a while, though, and I did not really think about the realism of the whole thing.

I can, of course, accept and see how the Elves would play with their languages if they are so inclined. But the idea that they would actually want to change their language to such degrees as the differences between Quenya and Sindarin suggests is pretty much beyond me.

I mean, this could only work if the elder generations would come to accept the changes the younger generations made, and how likely is that if you try to imagine it. Does anybody see, say, Legolas or Arwen teach Círdan how to speak properly? Or Orodreth Ingwe? I don't think so.

As to Galadriel:

Now, the interesting question there is - is Tolkien also of the mind that Celeborn is just this poor figurehead guy with Galadriel calling the shots?

I know you can get this impression but just as Thingol is the King of Doriath - the guy who has the last words and makes all the decisions, heeding Melian's decisions or not (there are certainly instances when he does not care what his wife says, especially in the end) - Celeborn is the Lord of Lórien.

Tolkien has some powerful female figures that are revered (and feared) by men (like Varda, Melian, Galadriel, and Lúthien) but are they really set up as rulers?

I think they are not. They are basically spouses and (aside from the Ruling Queens of Númenor) they are all basically healers, advisers, mothers, and helpers. They are not active in the same way men are.

Haleth may have been an exception, too, but we know to little about her. Although the fact that she (and Telperien) remained unwed is another hint in that direction. Women cannot be married in Tolkien's world to be really independent rulers because if they are married then the proper way for the wife would be to defer to her husband and let either rule him in his own right or in her name.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Well, if you put it like that you really make the man look like a clown in comparison to her. But we should keep in mind that he was at least as old as she was, and presumably resided with her in Doriath (or was there even before she came across the sea).

Now, I don't know what version of Celeborn's origin you prefer, but in any version that is not the original Nando version - which is the one actually used in the text of LotR when Galadriel remarks that she came to Celeborn - he certainly has the chance to be a wise guy in his own right.

There is no indication in any version of the story that has Celeborn as ancient as Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

He wouldn't have as much Noldo knowledge from the Valar, but he also had the chance to learn stuff from Thingol and Melian.

Let's stick with facts. There is no indication anywhere that Celeborn had anything to do with Melian. In fact, the text explicitly refers to Galadriel learning directly from Melian.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

That is one way to see it. I'd say it is improper for a woman in Tolkien's world/mindset to lead an army, regardless how much power she actually wielded. She simply couldn't do that, and that puts the actual visible/political power back in Celeborn's hands.

Tolkien refers to Galadriel as second only to Feanor in power among the Noldor, not just magic/goetia, but physical strength and agility. In fact, at the time of the War of the Ring, Tolkien refers to her as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth". If you want to conjecture, if Sauron came to Lothlorien, who would contest against him, Celeborn or Galadriel? The answer is quite simple. Celebrimbor handed her a Ring of Power for a reason, and conversely, he didn't hand it to Celeborn for the same reason.

Also, it is well known she herself fought against Fëanor in defense of her mother's kin in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Hm. That alliance between the Greenwood elves and Lórien was made by Celeborn and Thranduil. Galadriel isn't mentioned. Whether the White Council was some sort of political body is questionable, too. We don't really know what that was besides a debating society for the Wise who claimed to keep a watchful eye on Sauron and his servants (they seemed to have done a very awful job at that considering that it took centuries before one of them decided to investigate Dol Guldur personally, not to mention that none of them actually ever attacked the place or urged Gondor to do so).

A debating society? That's what you got out of reading the story?

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I'm also not sure whether Galadriel actually convened the meetings. We know she instigated the formation of the council but that doesn't mean she was in charge. Saruman was, after he had been elected, and the fact that he was also indicates that Galadriel's influence wasn't that great. We also know that the meeting in TA 2851 was in Imladris, so one could assume that Elrond also had the authority to convene a meeting (or at least invite the other guys to join him). The meeting before the attack on Dol Guldur was most likely in Lórien considering that this would have been closest it, but we don't know that for a certainty. It could also have been at Isengard.

But the text states the White Council was formed at her insistence (again, stick with the text, not making stuff up). Saruman, a Maia, was elected to lead the Council, whereas Galadriel, in her wisdom, wanted Gandalf (another Maia) to lead the Council. It was because Saruman was elected that the Council failed for such a long time, and he was deliberately sabotaging their efforts. That a Maia was elected to lead the Council, whether Saruman or Gandalf, is the only logical choice since Manwe himself sent them on their mission. Again, reading the text is necessary here.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

That's actually a very interesting quote. Especially the last part. It illustrates how Tolkien imagined Galadriel as Dark Lord would have ruled. As a femme fatale, a woman who would have subdued and dominated anyone in Middle-earth by the power of her beauty, basically. There is no mentioning of the strength of her armies, the power of her mind, or the sharpness of her sword. Just compare that to the Song about Gil-galad or ask yourself how Gandalf would have been described as Dark Lord. Nobody would have said that 'all shall love him and despair'.

Again, you need to read the text. "No mentions of the power of her mind?" Now I think you are showing yourself to be merely a chauvinist and ignoring the story altogether. There are countless mentions of her wisdom in both LotR and The Silmarillion. As far as her sword, I believe she preferred a javelin. But do you really think she even needed a weapon? Seriously? She throws down the walls of Dol-Guldur (not Celeborn and his army, but her, specifically).

She left Valinor to rule, the text states it specifically. In the Silmarillion the wording is such that you can't mistake who wears the pants:

...whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lorien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

So, reading that you get GALADRIEL, oh, yeah, and she married that Celeborn guy.

I think you have a skewed view of Galadriel that is not consistent with the books. She was much different from Melian, and more like Luthien, who was also a co-ruler with Beren.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Morthoron:

I think we are not on the same page. I'm not trying to diminish Galadriel's power or status. If Tolkien calls her queen then she was a queen. And this also no chauvinist attitude - I'm actually motivated from a feminist perspective there because the thing I'm trying to point out is that even the few strong female figures in Tolkien's work have to stick to the established gender rules, and that means that wives defer to their husbands.

There is a trait in the work that great male heroes (Beren, Tuor, Aragorn) claim female spouses as prices for their great deeds that are nobler and more powerful than they are. I really think you can integrate both Elwe-Melian and Celeborn-Galadriel into this whole pattern.

I'd always concede that at least the LotR-Galadriel and the one in the Later Quenta Silmarillion comes closest to breaking the pattern and being more than a price for her husband. By comparison to Melian, Lúthien, and Arwn she is much more active and man-like (that is also made clear in her name) But this is mostly because Celeborn isn't a hero the story is focusing on. Galadriel is much more important for the narratives she shows up than he is.

And, of course, Galadriel has to be humbled and eventually overcome her man-like qualities. Just as Éowyn cannot remain a shield-maiden of Rohan. She has to become a housewife and give birth to Faramir's children.

Just check Galadriel's words when she passes her final test: ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’ 'Remaining Galadriel' can be seen as her giving up all her grand dreams she has once had as Nerwen in her youth. There is not much left of the 'man-maiden' of old, or is there?

Not to mention that, you know, the very name 'Nerwen' confirms that there are fixed gender roles in Tolkien's world and it is unusual/not the rule that a woman fancies herself to be a man or do stuff a man would do. Else Galadriel's mother-name would have been something else, say, something like 'great woman' or 'strong woman' or 'great queen'.

My question is whether a female ruler - regardless how powerful she might be in spirit, word, or deed - can fulfill the same role as a man in the same position (especially if she is married herself)?

I'm not sure about that. Perhaps one can see Galadriel as the sole (or at least partial) exception, but I'm not really convinced that this is the case.

The examples you cited stress the importance of Galadriel in the stories - and I never doubted any of that. But I'm not sure they touch upon what I meant. And that's the question whether Galadriel can, politically, play a more important role at her husband's court even if we agree she is more powerful, wiser, stronger, whatever. The fact remains that she is a woman, not a man.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I'm trying to point out is that even the few strong female figures in Tolkien's work have to stick to the established gender rules, and that means that wives defer to their husbands.

I'd always concede that at least the LotR-Galadriel and the one in the Later Quenta Silmarillion comes closest to breaking the pattern and being more than a price for her husband. By comparison to Melian, Lúthien, and Arwn she is much more active and man-like (that is also made clear in her name) But this is mostly because Celeborn isn't a hero the story is focusing on. Galadriel is much more important for the narratives she shows up than he is.

Luthien stood up to Morgoth alone. I am wondering if you even read what she did on her adventures - on the road with and without Beren, facing vampires, supernatural wolves and the Dark Lord himself. To say she wasn't "man-like" and writing off what she did on her shared mission with Beren, and then lumping her with two more stereotypical women characters such as Melian and Arwen, is questionable.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

And, of course, Galadriel has to be humbled and eventually overcome her man-like qualities. Just as Éowyn cannot remain a shield-maiden of Rohan. She has to become a housewife and give birth to Faramir's children.

Just check Galadriel's words when she passes her final test: ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’ 'Remaining Galadriel' can be seen as her giving up all her grand dreams she has once had as Nerwen in her youth. There is not much left of the 'man-maiden' of old, or is there?

She did not "overcome her manlike qualities". Her "humbling" as you put it, has nothing whatsoever to do with a woman resigning herself to womanly roles. The misreading on your part is preposterous! Her diminishment was surrendering to the Valar's judgment and returning to the West. She "passed the test"- do you even know what she meant when she said that? She showed her wisdom in abandoning the offer of the Ring, like Gandalf refused the Ring when it was offered to him. Because she did what she did, the Ban of the Valar was lifted, and she returned to Valinor - without Celeborn. So much for the bonds of matrimony. As Tolkien said in Letter 320 (25 January 1971):

"...Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself."

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Not to mention that, you know, the very name 'Nerwen' confirms that there are fixed gender roles in Tolkien's world and it is unusual/not the rule that a woman fancies herself to be a man or do stuff a man would do. Else Galadriel's mother-name would have been something else, say, something like 'great woman' or 'strong woman' or 'great queen'.

No one said there isn't fixed gender roles in Tolkien's work. I simply think you are misreading when it comes to two specific characters who go against this stereotypical pattern: Galadriel and Luthien. Tolkien is explicit in his treatment of Galadriel:

"Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone...for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm of her own."

She set out to do it and accomplished it.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

The examples you cited stress the importance of Galadriel in the stories - and I never doubted any of that. But I'm not sure they touch upon what I meant. And that's the question whether Galadriel can, politically, play a more important role at her husband's court even if we agree she is more powerful, wiser, stronger, whatever. The fact remains that she is a woman, not a man.

She did play a more important role, and it is there in the books if one wishes to actually read it. Celeborn is not even mentioned in the Councils - Councils that decided the fate of the West, whether good or bad depending on Saruman's betrayal, right up to expelling Sauron from Dol Guldur. If she were to play the womanly role you want to saddle her with, then he would call councils, he would be mentioned as primary lord when sitting with Gandalf. Sauron, Elrond, Cirdan, Glorfindel, etc., but he isn't. Celebrimbor gives Galadriel a ring directly, as he does with Gil-Galad, indicating who among the Elves is most powerful. There was no consideration of gender in the giving.

[Belegorn]

I don't think Galadriel overcame any man like qualities, but she did humble herself rather in the mode contrary to her earlier drive, to rule over realms of her own. This is what drove many of the princes of the Noldor to Middle-earth and her uncle really helped push this idea along, that the Valar were holding the Elves back from being rulers in M-E.

She does have great mental and physical abilities and was mentored by Melian. She was said, I believe, in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn to be like the prime opposition to Sauron since the Second Age. She is compared to Manwe in her role in the Third Age, but I also see her like Melian via her Ring and her power (Girdle of Melian) and Galadriel is the one referred to when it is said why the Nazgul avoid Lorien.

She mentions how bows and arrows alone do not defend and maintain Lorien and it is also said the power in Lorien could only be overcome if Sauron himself led his forces there. Three times of course his armies from Dol Guldur were repelled, hardly doing anything on the outskirts, and the Nazgul would not challenge her power either. Although it was Celeborn, and not herself who chased those armies into the forest and aed Thranduil. Again, her in her Manwe capacity.

[Alcuin]

The High Kingship of the Noldor appears to have passed by agnatic succession. In short, when a High King died, his eldest brother became king; if there were no eldest brother (nearby, at any rate), his son became king. If there were no brother or son, his daughter inherited the kingdom (cf. Idril daughter of Turgon), and she and her husband ruled. This is how kingship was passed among the Anglo-Saxons.

The High King might be compared to an early Holy Roman Emperor. Charlemagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor and a powerful monarch. When he died, his eldest son, Louis the Pious became Holy Roman Emperor. When Louis died, his sons became kings of different regions: Lothair, the eldest, became Holy Roman Emperor and took possession of “Middle Franconia”, the region along the Rhine into modern Switzerland and Italy: the rich north-south trade route (sometimes called “the Bowling Alley”); Pepin, his second son, received Aquitaine and Maine (the western half of modern France); Louis, his third son, received what is now western Germany (receiving the sobriquet “Louis the German”); and Charles (the Bald), his youngest, received part of what is now France, and upon the death of Pepin, the rest of it. The brothers fought against one another and rebelled against their father. The office of Holy Roman Emperor lasted until 1806.

In exile, two descendents of Finwë built fortresses and became local kings: Turgon in Gondolin, Finrod in Nargothrond. Both of them acknowledged the overlordship of Fingolfin as High King. Fingolfin was, presumably, arbiter of disputes (in ironic jest, the Sindar accused the Noldor of returning to Middle-earth so that they could have more room to argue among themselves) and supreme leader in warfare. The Sons of Fëanor mostly cooperated with Fingolfin, at least in military matters; none of them assumed the title “king”. After Fingolfin’s death, the High Kingship passed agnatically until, by whatever lineage, Gil-galad became High King. In the Second Age, Gil-galad was recognized as High King by Galadriel, Elrond, and the Noldor of Eregion, though that did not prevent either Galadriel or the smiths of Eregion from acting independently of him. (The Noldor were a contentious bunch.) Upon his death, no one claimed the High Kingship of the Noldor: presumably Elrond as grandson of Turgon could have taken the title, but did not; by declining to succeed to royal authority, he diffused any rivalry with Galadriel, and set a precedent for the Chieftains of the Dúnedain, who did not take the title of king after the ruin of Arnor. (Elendil and Isildur were High Kings of Arnor and Gondor; Aragorn called himself High King of Gondor and Arnor.)

I don’t know who the kings were among the Elves before Oromë, or if the Elves even had kings. The four emissaries who initially went with Oromë to Aman were either appointed or acknowledged as kings upon their return: Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë and Olwë. Elwë and Olwë had a brother, Elmo (tickle me!), father of Celeborn, who did not go to Aman with his two brothers. Thranduil was related to Celeborn, and Círdan was somehow related to Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo. This implies there may have been several generations of Elves at Cuiviénen before Oromë discovered them. Perhaps Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë and Olwë were among the first Elves to awaken (there were originally 14 Minyar (later Vanyar), 56 Tatyar (half of whom went to Aman and became Noldor, half were unwilling, or Avari), and 74 Nelyar (the same number of Nelyar as Tatyar refused to go and were Avari; and of the rest, half went with Olwë to Aman and became Teleri, half remained in Beleriand to search for Elwë and became Sindar)), but there seems no reason that must be so.

In Silmarillion, Thingol in his rage at the Dwarves of Nargothrond when they try to take the Silmaril after mounting it in the Nauglamír says his “life began by the waters of Cuiviénen”. Perhaps he was indeed one of the 74 Nelyar who first awoke there, or perhaps he was born there; for myself, I think he was born there. Silmarillion indicates a great number of Elves followed Oromë in the Great March to Beleriand, but not whether they were numbered in scores, hundreds, thousands, or ten thousands: there were many more than the 144 who first awoke beneath the stars, and that can only mean several generations of Elves lived there before meeting Oromë.

As for Galadriel, Tolkien calls her the greatest of the Noldor second only to Fëanor. Of the two, I suppose most of us would prefer to deal with Galadriel rather than Fëanor: while Fëanor might be more entertaining, Galadriel would likely be better (and far safer and less arrogant) company.

The relationship between Galadriel and Celeborn mirrors that between Melian and Thingol. There is no question that Melian, a Maia, was far more powerful and possessed much deeper insight than Thingol. For instance, when Thingol sends Beren off on a suicidal quest for a Silmaril, Melian quietly rebukes him,

O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.

Compare that to Galadriel’s gentle rebuke of Celeborn, who wisely understanding that a Balrog might burst forth from Moria to follow the Company of the Ring into Lórien, says he would have barred not only Gimli the Dwarf but even Aragorn and Legolas his kinsman from entering:

Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?

She then proceeds to make peace with Gimli. Galadriel intentionally patterned some of her actions after Melian’s.

Looking back for a moment to Noldorin kingship, notice that neither Galadriel nor Celeborn assumes any royal title in Lórien. Like Elrond in Rivendell and Círdan in Lindon, they are unquestionably the rulers of the land; but the last king of Lórien was Amroth, whether he was (as was Tolkien’s intention when he wrote Lord of the Rings) the son of Celeborn and Galadriel (echoed in Treebeard’s greeting, A vanimar, vanimalion nostari!, “O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children!” i.e., Celebrían and Amroth) or of a Silvan or Sindarin lord Amdír (later in Tolkien’s life).

Arwen and Aragorn saw their relationship as a clear reprise of that of Lúthien and Beren; but there are striking similarities between Lúthien’s relationship with Beren and that her mother shared with her father; in fact, since Aragorn reigned as High King of the Dúnedain, he and Arwen may share more similarities with Melian and Thingol than did Lúthien and Beren. In all four relationships – Melian and Thingol, Galadriel and Celeborn, Lúthien and Beren, and Arwen and Aragorn, the female is more powerful and wiser than the male; and in every case except Galadriel and Celeborn, she is especially older than the male.

As an aside, for Lúthien and Beren, Melian and Thingol, and Arwen and Aragorn, when the younger male dies – in the cases of Beren and Thingol, violently – the female soon chooses to leave Middle-earth, too. (This situation is reversed for Galadriel and Celeborn: Galadriel leaves Middle-earth, and Celeborn is left behind: Galadriel is not a descendent of Melian.)

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now I think you are showing yourself to be merely a chauvinist

That was a bit presumptuous.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

That was a bit presumptuous.

Hmmm...but is it? I would say when one ignores textual evidence to continue a line of reasoning, then perhaps the boot fits the Stoor. For instance....

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...but is it? I would say when one ignores textual evidence to continue a line of reasoning, then perhaps the boot fits the Stoor. For instance....

A little, yes. I normally enjoy your posts, but going SJW (do not pass "GO") on someone is becoming a bad habit in today's society.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

A little, yes. I normally enjoy your posts, but going SJW (do not pass "GO") on someone is becoming a bad habit in today's society.

In my defense, I don't follow trends. I have been politically incorrect for decades.

And in this case, with continued variants of "males only fought with swords", or "only males were kings", and then blithely ignoring the fact that both Finrod and Luthien strove with songs of power with great effect against superior enemies, or that Celeborn and Galadriel couldn't possibly be co-rulers (even though there was no kingship involved and they were referred to as Lord and Lady), it certainly seems a case in point.

What next, Feanor was feminine because he was "artsy"? Daeron was questionable because he had good penmanship? Thingol was "hysterical" over a necklace, and only women wear necklaces? Haleth and Eowyn must've been transgender because in Middle-earth only men wielded swords?

Geeze, allow Tolkien a little subtlety, please!