orcs and goblins- what's the difference???

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Will someone please explain to me what the difference is between orcs and goblins. Are they the same or are they completely different. Are they almost the same or are they almost completely different. Is it just the names??? Will someone please tell me. Also, why did Tolkien switch from goblins to orcs when he went from the Hobbit to LOTR??? Is anyone else as confused as me?

[the witch king]

its all in the name there both the same thing tolkien alternated between both names from time to time

[Lindolirian]

I'm not too sure of the truth but I do have my own theories on this. Goblin is merely another name for Orc. Orc is a translation of the Sindarin orch. Basically, goblin can be used a a sort of slang term to refer to the smaller breeds of orcs. I don't know why Tolkien used goblin in the Hobbit and orc in the LotR. A

[the witch king]

im shure the word orc appears in the hobbit but im not 100%

[Lindolirian]

Yes, it did. Gandalf used it when describing the goblins of the Grey Mountains. he said something about "great hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description."

Also, when Tolkien was talking about the goblins chasing silently after the dwarves in the tunnels I think he said something like, "the huge orcs of the mountains went along at a great pace with their arms hanging down to the ground."

Sorry I don't have the exact quotes, but I lent my copy of the Hobbit to a friend, so I can't look them up.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Argh....third time's the charm....

Not to take this out on anyone in particular, but this needs to be understood.

The Hobbit was written as a children's story, so it used well-known (with the exceptions of Hobbits) fantasy stereotypes at the time. Goblins, instead of orcs. Smaug, the Dragon. Happy Elves, Dwarves, etc.

The Lord of the Rings was an epic adventure, for more mature audiences. Tolkien could create more of a story, so creating his own race of bad guys worked a lot better.

Remember, The Hobbit wasn't originally supposed to be part of the Silmarillion/Middle-earth saga; Tolkien found it fit when he started writing LotR. He didn't know that the "hobgoblins" of the Misty Mountains were the same as the Orcs from Angband.

But, for continuity's sake, they're the same thing.

[Lindolirian]

I knew somebody who knew what he was talking about would come along sooner or later. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Morsul the Dark]

I hate to disagree

Orc-Bigger than goblins stronger however not so much free will(they were mostly slaves) and lets say not so bright(not dumb or stupid just not bright)I also theorized elsewhere they are a all male society relied on rape as a means of reproduction

Goblins-Samller less powerful but far more independent and intelligent so much so they have their own government system and in fact learnings in history and reading. being alone in the mountains so long its obviuous female goblins must exist in order to create such a vast population(i believe they are very close in behavior to ants therefore rely on a central queen)

Uruk-hai(being combined of the two races) have a multiplied strength and intelligence

[Valier]

I always thought that Goblins were sort of a cave dwelling Orc. The are smaller, faster, can climb up walls. In the movies they attack the fellowship in Moria am I correct? They seem to have larger eyes as well to see better in the dim light. Ors seem larger,dumber and mostly in the service of the bad guys. The Goblins seem to do their own thing.

[Aiwendil]

Neither goblins nor orcs ever climbed up walls in anything Tolkien wrote.

It's interesting to hear people's opinions, but can anyone actually provide evidence suggesting that "orc" and "goblin" are not synonyms? All that I can think of is the quote about "hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", which might (possibly) suggest that there is a distinction, at the least, between hobgoblins and orcs - though it's quite hard to say, as the word "hobgoblin" is not used elsewhere by Tolkien, as far as I can recall.

I think that, at the very most, the distinction is a loose, "racial" one. I don't think there's any doubt that the Great Goblin, Azog, Grishnakh, Ugluk, and the rest belong to a single class of creatures called yrch.

[Thinlómien]

I wouldn't say that goblins are cleverer than orcs! On the contrary. Orcs were mightier beings in intelligence too, or so I believe.

[Morsul the Dark]

yes but when have you heard of an orc quoting history

the goblin king in fact knows the history behind bilbo's sword(so do his followers)

Orcs only ask about how good sport hobbits give

Orcs in my opinion resemble neanderthals they have a chief and live in packs while goblins are more feudal with a king and im willing to bet a better knack at inventing(they live in caves...deep in caves)one can assume theyre excellent trap makers for food while orcs chase down their food(although wherew all the food comes from is still a mystery

also one last thing Saruman's uruks can ride wargs as can goblins but ive never heard of orcs riding them. one can only assume the uruks knowledge of this craft came from their goblin predecessors

[Morsul the Dark]

hey I found something Im surprised no one brought up i found this on another site

OK, I'm not sure exactly how to explain this so I'll just go with the flow. I have two points. The first is that whether they are goblins or Orcs Sting should be glowing anyway. In the Hobbit when Bilbo first gets Sting, Bilbo and his companions are attacked by Goblins in the Misty Mountains and Sting (and the other elven blades) glow when the goblins are about, Orcs are not mentioned in the Hobbit. .

this is referring to a blooper in the film but the book reference was useful for here

[Balin999]

This topic also has been discussed before.
Take a good look at this .

[narfforc]

There is at least one mention of the word Orc in the Hobbit, I have read back through the post although Orcrist is mentioned, it's translation into Goblin-cleaver has not I believe, if Tolkien says that, it's good enough for me. I think maybe that some are confused with Tolkiens descriptions on size. Stature can vary in all races, think of the pygmy and the zulu, both are of the same race, Orcs were said to have differed from tribe to tribe, There is also the air of Small being (wimpy I believe someone used) Less, and Tall being Great, the only analogy I can think of at this moment is that Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano were all smaller men in their weight division, but they blew away most of the taller men put in front of them, in the same way as Gimli carved his way through Big Tall Fearsome Uruk-hai. So to me Goblin means Orc, the small, the tall, the scrawny and the large ones who had gorged too many Man and Potatoe Pies. The Uruk-hai and The Half-orcs were bred from any one of the Orc race/tribes

[AragornII]

I just wanted to point out that their is a difference between orcs and goblins in the movies. Now I know that this might just be PJ's interpretation, but in FotR, Gandlf, during his conversation with Elrond after Frodo's rescue at the ford, says:

...he's crossing orcs with goblin men, he's breeding an army...

This is in reference to Saruman. It suggests that orcs and goblins are two different creatures, because if they were the same, I don't think crossing an orc with an orc would give you an Uruk-hai. However, this is just the movies, so PJ could have added this. I checked in the book, but couldn't find it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Boromir88]

I just wanted to point out that their is a difference between orcs and goblins in the movies.~AragornII

And as you point out that was in the movies and invented by Jackson. There is no difference between Orcs and Goblins as Tolkien points out:

They had run a long way shouting--he could not remember how far or how long; and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms. Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees. Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old Merry!~The Uruk-hai

There the words are used interchangeably in a couple sentences. And...

Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc ’demon’, but only because of phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be .corruptions’. They are not based on direct expierence of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think),.....The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarian and uruk in the Black Speech~Letter 144

Also, I would disagree with the assertion that Goblins are typically smaller than Orcs. They're the same and just two words to mean the same creatures as we see in The Departure of Boromir:

There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature.....

Bottomline, orcs=goblins, goblins=orcs...one's not smaller than the other, they're not "weaker," they're the same.

[Rhod the Red]

They are the same thing. In The Hobbit they're all called goblins, but in TLOTR those in Moria are called goblins. I prefer TLOTR distinction.

[Morsul the Dark]

In theory they are the same species this is true however they are different races

a good example is the difference among the race of man

we've got Caucasian, Asian, Black, Hispanic

Its the same with orcs and goblins theyre overall the same however there are noticable differences

[ninja91]

As far as I know orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just in the Hobbit, they are referred to goblins. But everywhere else, they are called orcs. So yes, they are the same.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For a Wikipedia slant on this subject try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Azog

[edit]


Orcs, goblins, and Uruk-hai

In The Hobbit, Tolkien used the word "goblins" for Orcs, because he had not yet identified the world of The Hobbit with Middle-earth (which predated The Hobbit by several decades, in early writings which would later become The Silmarillion). Fortunately Tolkien did include some references to his mythology in the Hobbit, which later allowed him to identify the lands of the Hobbit with his Middle-earth. The term "Orc" does occur, but only in an instance where Gandalf is trying to scare Bilbo by mentioning creatures of the wilderness and in the name of Thorin's sword, 'Orc-rist' ('goblin-cleaver').

In The Lord of the Rings, "Orc" is used predominantly, and "goblin" mostly in the Hobbits' speech.

As an example, a passage where the terms are used interchangeably goes:


"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
"The Departure of Boromir", from The Two Towers. The goblins described are Saruman's Uruk-hai.


This change can be seen either as a part of the shift towards the use of Elvish words that occurred during the period between the writing of The Hobbit and the writing of The Lord of the Rings, or a translation of the Hobbits' more colloquial manner (if we "accept" the books' authenticity and regard Tolkien merely as a translator). So essentially the race is more formally named "Orc", and "goblin" is a colloquial term for Orcs used by Hobbits and sometimes picked up by Men and Elves.

The original edition of The Hobbit and early drafts of The Lord of the Rings first used "goblin" everywhere and used "hobgoblin" for larger, more evil goblins: when "goblin" and "goblins" were replaced with "Orc" and "Orcs", Tolkien invented the terms "Uruks" and "Uruk-hai" for his stronger Orcs.


It is possible that "goblin" refers to the those of the orcish race who are not under the control of Sauron (or Morgoth), whereas using "orc" directly would refer to servants of (whichever) Dark Lord, but this is only readers' conjecture. Tolkien did mention several times that orcs were not inherently evil, something this theory would partly emphasize.

[Rhod the Red]

Cheers! I beleive you have helped conclude this interesting debate. A toast gentlemen *click of glasses*.

[Boromir88]

Tuor, I'm ok with Wikipedia's article, except for the last paragraph. As I quoted there are two times when Grishnakh is referred to as a "goblin," and he was a messenger that served Sauron directly.

I will note that it is interesting how typically "Orcs" are capitalized and "goblins" are not. Tolkien was a linguist, I've always thought that "goblins" tend more to kind of like slang, therefor uncapitalized, where "Orc" is the proper term for them. Others suggest that this creates a slight difference between the two.

But, as can be clearly shown Orcs and goblins are two words for the same thing. An orc can be called a goblin, and vice versa.

[Galin]

Old thread I know, but my opinion is a bit different from the posts in it. First, responding to Wikipedia (quoted for interest above)...

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In The Lord of the Rings, "Orc" is used predominantly, and "goblin" mostly in the Hobbits' speech.

IIRC the actual examples in The Lord of the Rings do not reveal that goblin appears mostly when Hobbits are speaking, which gives rise to the somewhat popular idea that 'goblin' represents a Hobbit-word, while others said orc.

As an example, a passage where the terms are used interchangeably goes:

Interchangeability is fine, but does not go far enough in my opinion.

This change can be seen either as a part of the shift towards the use of Elvish words that occurred during the period between the writing of The Hobbit and the writing of The Lord of the Rings, or a translation of the Hobbits' more colloquial manner (if we "accept" the books' authenticity and regard Tolkien merely as a translator).

I would say the change rather reflects that Tolkien preferred the word orc to the word goblin in both sound and suitability (see below) -- neither word is Elvish in any case.

So essentially the race is more formally named "Orc", and "goblin" is a colloquial term for Orcs used by Hobbits and sometimes picked up by Men and Elves.

But Tolkien explained that the Hobbits said orc.

And here is where I'm not sure people will agree, but to my mind orc is not a translation, but the actual word used by Hobbits. No one in Middle-earth ever said the English word 'goblin' of course -- this is a translation.


Tolkien loved words, and was finely attuned to sound and (his perception of) sound-sense. Tolkien liked the sound of orc for these creatures; it seemed to fit. And like 'Elves' for his Quendi, he knew that 'goblin' didn't really suit his goblins in any event.

And why can't orc be actual Westron? It's not very far from actual Sindarin Orch for example (which ends in a sound like in German ach, not English church). In Tolkien's day the word orc was hardly generally known, and the meaning of the Old English word (as far as JRRT was concerned) was 'demon'. The inspiration could be Primary World, but just like certain other real world inspirations, like Moria for instance, Tolkien could characterize such words as Westron or Elvish.

But how to explain his use of both orc and goblin? in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien reveals his mode as translator, and translation provided the answer. 'Samwise' is a translation of what other Hobbits really called Sam: Banazîr (Ban for short), for example of a name, and after The Lord of the Rings was published, Tolkien wrote a guide for translators of his book, and there he explained the relationship of orc to 'goblin':

Orc 'This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated to English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained.'

From JRRT's Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings

Orc is Common Speech, a name of these creatures at that time (see below where this is repeated) -- thus orc should be translated, which JRRT mostly did in The Hobbit in theory -- but despite the system, Tolkien essentially tells translators not to translate instances of orc for The Lord of the Rings, he wants it 'retained'. Why? again 'goblin' is not really suitable with respect to modern connotations and the creatures of his story, and in any case it seems to Tolkien in sound a good name for these creatures.

And when another edition of The Hobbit arose in the 1960s, Tolkien took the opportunity to explain the words to his readership at large:

'(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.' JRRT The Hobbit

This is really all the reader needs, and nicely covers all examples in The Lord of the Rings as well. Examples help show interchangeability, but as I say this doesn't go far enough, as Tolkien's explanation allows the reader to imagine the underlying word... all instances of 'goblin' are translations of the word orc in any case (unless by context it is obvious that 'goblin' is translating another internal word, like orch), as all instances of 'Sam' are really instances of Ban in the original. There can be no distinctions here: a translator does not intend 'dog' to be distinct from hund if one has chosen English to translate an original German text.


Take any example then, and it's just a matter of the way the translator has rendered it. Any instance of 'goblin' is really an instance of orc in the imagined original -- or any instance of orc could have been translated with 'goblin'.

In the end the explanation is simple enough: the words are not only interchangeable, but one is used to translate the other (just not in every instance). No distinction of any kind is intended.

_______________

A)

There is a matter in which examples help disprove an interpretation of Tolkien's published explanation -- an interpretation (raised in the thread) which goes: since Hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, then 'goblin' refers, or possibly refers, to smaller kinds.

However Tolkien's explanation works fine as: hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, goblin refers to all kinds. If we had a compound word in English for larger dogs, like 'gredog' (greatdog) for imaginary instance, would that mean that the word 'dog' only refers to smaller kinds?

Examples show that 'goblin' is not reserved for smaller kinds, and the former interpretation will not hold up in my opinion.

B)

A futher issue involves 'unpublished' or draft texts: obviously there's nothing wrong with knowing the texts 'behind the scenes', but similar to the matter of the two towers (the question: which towers are the two towers), the simple text published by Tolkien himself can become part of a confusing muddle once draft text or letters are introduced, and be lost or obscured in the pile. Tolkien was not against changing his mind, but what he chose to reveal to his readership is distinct from alternate views he may have held at various times, which remained his private papers as far as he was concerned, by comparison.