Sauron and Saruman why are the names similar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

09-19-2004, 11:50 AM

Also, Arwyn and Eowyn.

Kransha · 09-19-2004, 12:11 PM

Well, I do not believe this belongs in this forum, but I'll answer it.

The names weren't just made up (well, I suppose they were), but they mean something. Some names are similar simply coincidentally, like these. The meaning are all different, and in different tongues, so the resemblance of names is technically irrelevant. I personally think that 'Eowyn' and 'Arwen' sound very different and look very different, though Saruman and Sauron are a bit similar. Here are the name meanings, as I know them.

Sauron: "The Abhorred" (Sindarin, I believe: This one's a bit tricky, because J.R.R. never gave us a meaning. Christopher Tolkien, using the name 'Tauron' [Another name for Oromë, meaning 'Lord of Forests') translated Sauron as, "Lord of Abomination". Thus, Sauron can be translated as, Lord of Abomination or Abhorrent One, or Abominable One, or what have you)
Saruman: "Man of Skill" (Again, Sindarin: This, though, I am unsure of. Like all the Maiar, Saruman is known by many other names, like Curunir and Curumo, both of which have something to do with being 'skillful')
Arwen: "Noble Maiden" (Sindarin)
Eowyn: "Horse-joy" (Rohirric: The tongue of Rohan, which has some very definitive roots in Olde English)

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-19-2004, 12:32 PM

My mother once told me that this was 'poor writing' from John Ronald, because it made the two villains harder to distinguish.

I could not adequately convey in one sigh my complete disagreement.

09-19-2004, 12:52 PM

Thanks!

Maerbenn · 09-19-2004, 01:07 PM

According to cian, a member of other Tolkien message boards:

Sauron is Quenya though: archaic *Thaurondo > *Thaurond > *Thauron > Sauron.

Saruman is from Old English (David Salo suggests West Saxon) meaning 'Man of skill'.

Old English searo (searu) 'art, skill, cleverness, cunning' (of interest searocræft 'artifice, treachery, wile')

Boromir88 · 09-19-2004, 02:51 PM

Also, not just the names, but another connection between Saruman and Sauron, was they are most like Aule. That is why they both get greedy and lust for power.

Mithalwen · 09-20-2004, 01:08 PM

The closeness of Sauron to Saruman especially when handwritten by JRRT led to may errors by copy typists according to HoME. But an unforgivable example is on the 13 cassette editionof the BBC RAdio version ( the one in the long black and gold boxnot the 14 cassette "Children's edition~" with Music), where the Episode called "The voice of Saruman" is written as the "Voice of Sauron".

davem · 09-20-2004, 02:06 PM

[QUOTE=Kransha]Arwen: "Noble Maiden" (Sindarin)[QUOTE]
Which is equivalent to the English name Patricia, which is from the latin for 'noblewoman'. Also, Ioreth is Sindarin for 'old woman', which is the meaning of the English name Priscilla!

(Sorry, I picked up a book of boys & girls names at Oxonmoot, which gives Sindarin equivalents of English names. The Sindarin equivalent of my actual name is apparently Melben.

And Helen, from Greek for sunbeam would have the Sindarin equivalent of Glawareth, while George (GK=earthworker)would be Barmudon.

Yes, I know I'm off topic now - I'll get me coat!)

Gothbogg the Ripper · 09-23-2004, 03:05 AM

Maybe the names are similar because Saruman always had something bad inside of him, of course he wasn't always evil but maybe his name was meant to be similar to Sauron's due to their similar characteristics;budding imperialism and tremendous pride.
Just my thoughts.

HerenIstarion · 09-23-2004, 05:55 AM

Quote:

while George (GK=earthworker)would be Barmudon

Thank you, I say, thank you for revealing the secret! Barmudon, indeed. Being called names after all my services! But who cares?! Silly of me to hope to keep it all nice and quiet all of these years. You, you, you Melben!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-23-2004, 09:37 AM

Well, Sauron and Saruman both had a number of names. If I had, say, four names and so did you then there is a decent chance that two of them could be similar.

Lhundulinwen · 09-24-2004, 09:00 PM

Tolkien used a lot of existing languages, so its natural for word parts in names (especially if both characters are good or evil) to have similar names. Yes, it does make it confusing. Especially if you aren't already familiar to the story. But like Eomer said, they both had a bunch of alliases so, personally I think it works okay.

Nenya · 10-09-2004, 04:48 PM

Isn't it so very, I dunno, tolkien to care more about the linguistic origins of his two main badguys' names than about the fact that a casual reader is bound to be a little confused by their apparent similarity...You've got to love the man.

09-19-2004, 11:50 AM	#1
Golbog the Odiferous Guest Posts: n/a	Sauron and Saruman why are the names similar? Also, Arwyn and Eowyn.

09-19-2004, 12:11 PM	#2
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Well, I do not believe this belongs in this forum, but I'll answer it. The names weren't just made up (well, I suppose they were), but they mean something. Some names are similar simply coincidentally, like these. The meaning are all different, and in different tongues, so the resemblance of names is technically irrelevant. I personally think that 'Eowyn' and 'Arwen' sound very different and look very different, though Saruman and Sauron are a bit similar. Here are the name meanings, as I know them. Sauron: "The Abhorred" (Sindarin, I believe: This one's a bit tricky, because J.R.R. never gave us a meaning. Christopher Tolkien, using the name 'Tauron' [Another name for Oromë, meaning 'Lord of Forests') translated Sauron as, "Lord of Abomination". Thus, Sauron can be translated as, Lord of Abomination or Abhorrent One, or Abominable One, or what have you) Saruman: "Man of Skill" (Again, Sindarin: This, though, I am unsure of. Like all the Maiar, Saruman is known by many other names, like Curunir and Curumo, both of which have something to do with being 'skillful') Arwen: "Noble Maiden" (Sindarin) Eowyn: "Horse-joy" (Rohirric: The tongue of Rohan, which has some very definitive roots in Olde English) __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies Last edited by Kransha; 09-19-2004 at 12:19 PM.

09-19-2004, 12:32 PM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	My mother once told me that this was 'poor writing' from John Ronald, because it made the two villains harder to distinguish. I could not adequately convey in one sigh my complete disagreement. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-20-2004, 01:08 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	The closeness of Sauron to Saruman especially when handwritten by JRRT led to may errors by copy typists according to HoME. But an unforgivable example is on the 13 cassette editionof the BBC RAdio version ( the one in the long black and gold boxnot the 14 cassette "Children's edition~" with Music), where the Episode called "The voice of Saruman" is written as the "Voice of Sauron". __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-20-2004, 02:06 PM	#8
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	[QUOTE=Kransha]Arwen: "Noble Maiden" (Sindarin)[QUOTE] Which is equivalent to the English name Patricia, which is from the latin for 'noblewoman'. Also, Ioreth is Sindarin for 'old woman', which is the meaning of the English name Priscilla! (Sorry, I picked up a book of boys & girls names at Oxonmoot, which gives Sindarin equivalents of English names. The Sindarin equivalent of my actual name is apparently Melben. And Helen, from Greek for sunbeam would have the Sindarin equivalent of Glawareth, while George (GK=earthworker)would be Barmudon. Yes, I know I'm off topic now - I'll get me coat!) __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

09-19-2004, 12:52 PM	#4
Golbog the Odiferous Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks!

09-19-2004, 01:07 PM	#5
Maerbenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 59	According to cian, a member of other Tolkien message boards: Sauron is Quenya though: archaic Thaurondo > Thaurond > Thauron > Sauron. Saruman* is from Old English (David Salo suggests West Saxon) meaning 'Man of skill'. Old English searo (searu) 'art, skill, cleverness, cunning' (of interest searocræft 'artifice, treachery, wile')

09-19-2004, 02:51 PM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Also, not just the names, but another connection between Saruman and Sauron, was they are most like Aule. That is why they both get greedy and lust for power.

09-23-2004, 03:05 AM	#9
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	Maybe the names are similar because Saruman always had something bad inside of him, of course he wasn't always evil but maybe his name was meant to be similar to Sauron's due to their similar characteristics;budding imperialism and tremendous pride. Just my thoughts. __________________ Thanks for abandoning me for three years guys. I really enjoyed being a total outcast.

09-23-2004, 09:37 AM	#11
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Well, Sauron and Saruman both had a number of names. If I had, say, four names and so did you then there is a decent chance that two of them could be similar. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-24-2004, 09:00 PM	#12
Lhundulinwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wishin' and hopin' in the Shire Posts: 139	Tolkien used a lot of existing languages, so its natural for word parts in names (especially if both characters are good or evil) to have similar names. Yes, it does make it confusing. Especially if you aren't already familiar to the story. But like Eomer said, they both had a bunch of alliases so, personally I think it works okay. __________________ ~Just call on me, and I'm there. I'll always be your Sam~

10-09-2004, 04:48 PM	#13
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	Isn't it so very, I dunno, tolkien to care more about the linguistic origins of his two main badguys' names than about the fact that a casual reader is bound to be a little confused by their apparent similarity...You've got to love the man.