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Old 12-06-2004, 03:09 PM   #1
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Giants among men, or just another player in the Long Defeat

This has been a whimsical tangent of mine for a long time. Barrow meisters please relocate my thread as you see fit.

Letters #131: Tolkien specifically says that "The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves)–hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk."
The narrative and point of view of both The Hobbit and LOTR are hobbitish, being transcribed by hobbits in the Red book. I know this was never the authors intention but... it's fun for me to consider a "what if" as i read LOTR:

The Big Folk in the tales were human, but of a strain (or tribe) that bestrode ME along side the other fantastic creatures that eventually faded away as the others did, and the true inheritors of Arda were... hobbits. The hobbits are Us. What the hobbit eye saw the world and the events in it is what a real "average" homo sapien would view ME. We are merely a descendant of the hole dwelling meek who have inhereted the earth. Our bigger and sometimes nobler cousins were the stuff of myths. The hobbits didnt fade away, ME did.

Last edited by drigel; 12-09-2004 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:03 PM   #2
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I don't know if this is what you mean to get out of the discussion, so if not, then just ignore me entirely.

Ok, what if LOTR was viewed from a "Big folk" perspective? I got a simple answer, it would definately be more biased.
But they (dwarves) are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men may have alleged. For men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands and there has been enmity between the races.
This is in Appendix F under the dwarven section of The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age. I think this is the common work of man. That if we don't like somebody, or something, we write these tales about them, as Tolkien states here. They wrote false tales about dwarves because they were jealous (sorry if I'm sounding like a misanthrope). Of course this is also assuming that Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam, are accurate in their tales. We have to remember what we read in this book may not always be true, duh duh duh. But, I would think that the three hobbits were fairly accurate at getting the facts straight.
Normalizing "changing your opinion, when presented with new information" one post at a time.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:15 PM   #3
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quite a possible thoery there drigel also accurat when one thinks of giants in old tales were merely big folk.... Also that would mean sasquatch is a later evolution of dwarf which now grows his beard all over as opposed to on his chin

EDIT: not to mock this thoery it is quite understandable however is it not strange we should have A)no fear of hights(mostly) B)be as tall as we are...or would you eplain that through evolution?
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:16 PM   #4
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Boro to be honest I am not sure what I am trying to generate discussion wise, but your on the mark I think.

The phrase "larger than life" comes to mind. Well, on this tangent, from a hobbits POV, that is literally true. It just seems to me that the era which LOTR is from a distant enough time/imagination, that realistically (toungue in cheek), we very well could have been the hole dwelling creatures looking out on a world that is fantastically huge and .. well ... big

Morsul: mock away - i started this thread out by saying it was silly. It seems to me that there are many different interpretations across the board that are expressed here. I thought that I would throw in a different way to percieve LOTR, as opposed to analysing ad-infinitum a body of work that has in fact only 2 publications (counting LOTR as one book - as the author originally intended). What is canon and what isnt is going to be debated forever. I enjoy that as much as anyone who actually enjoys HOME. Mabye its just me - or anyone who has regularly read the tale as long as I have (30 yrs). Mabye I have read it enough to acclimate the hobbit POV to the point of thinking that I am said hobbit lol. It has nothing to do with the authors intent. It's simply an inverse/reverse perspective. But if you want skewed logic hehe here it is:

The rest of ME knew as little about hobbits as did hobbits knowing about the wide world. This references Boro's take - that history most often is recorded by the winners. Or, ME vanishing beyond memory was due largely to hobbits not knowing what was out there beyond their borders.

The savior of ME in LOTR was a hobbit. Why not consider that is us? Is it not ultimately us anyways, for good or bad?

I dont hold the conventional thinking that the imaginary era was some 7000 odd years ago. We as a species have been around much longer. During that time, we shared our world with a few cousins on the family tree that werent quite like us. Also, to me, considering the flora and fawna that we did experience in reality during this time, we were not the biggest, bestest ( )thing around. Mabye we were looking out there with hobbits eyes, so to speak.

We as a species have been progressively growing taller since we have left the tree.

Why are my toes hairy??

Thats all i got. Mabye i should think before i post, sorry. Like i said, move my thread as you will.

Last edited by drigel; 12-07-2004 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 12-07-2004, 03:04 PM   #5
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Why are the heroes of this book little people, literally, in case of the hobbits; why are they little people? Even Aragorn who, by the end of the book, is a great hero and he's king and he's great, at the beginning of the book he's just this scruffy fellow who even the innkeeper doesn't like. Why are these people great? Not because they have a shiny sword that glows in the dark. These people are great because they have the little person's strength to endure in the face of adversity. The little man, the British private soldier who Tolkien saw in the trenches at the Battle of the Somme, the kind of dedicated will that gets Tommy Atkins up over the trench parapet and walking slowly toward German machine guns; that level of individulal herosim is what it's all about.
~from "J.R.R. Tolkien: Master of the Rings"

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Old 12-07-2004, 04:01 PM   #6
the guy who be short
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In the prefix of LotR it says how hobbits are 2-4 feet tall... Which we are not.
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Old 12-07-2004, 04:02 PM   #7
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are we talking feet or rangar ??

OK - heres another thought - inspired by Boromir88's "A Friendly Conversation" post:

In Tolkiens ME, we regard the spiritual walking and interacting with the worldly as commonplace. Isnt that us as well? Isnt man also the "metaxy"? The "in between", both flesh and spirit? Are we not Middle Earth?

Last edited by drigel; 12-14-2004 at 03:16 PM.
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