The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Fun and Games > Middle-earth Mirth
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2005, 10:35 AM   #1
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots Tol-in-Gaurhoth III (The Saga Continues...)

'Twas a town without too many worries or cares,
So by monsters Storyland was caught unawares;
Its stories these days
Ain't your winsome wholesome lays,
They're filled with horror and blood; true nightmares."


And a warm welcome to the third game of Werewolf on the Barrow-Downs.

You are probably all familiar with the rules; if you need to brush up, find the orginal rules here and the additional rules here.

The players in this game are:

Azaelia of Willowbottom (Seller of Fruit and Vegetables)
Eomer of the Rohirrim (Philosopher/Layabout)
Evisse the Blue (Fishmonger)
Firefoot (Stable keeper)
Fordim Hedgethistle (Loremaster)
Holbytlass (Cobbler)
Kuruharan (Resident Dwarf)
mormegil (Cleric/Religious Leader)
Oddwen (Gardener/Florist)
Shelob (Story Teller)
Son of Numenor (Bushy-bearded contractor)
the guy who be short (Merry Village Bard)
The Only Real Estel (Poor merchant)
the phantom (Town crier)
The Saucepan Man (Brewer)


The village comprises:

3 werewolves
1 seer
1 guardian
1 werewolf hunter
1 cursed villager
8 ordinary villagers


For now, the Sun is slowly rising. The village of Storyland seems as peaceful as ever.

The first day will begin in around 30 minutes at 6PM GMT (that's 1PM EST) and (12noon Central).

I hope you are sleeping peacefully.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond

Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 06-03-2005 at 01:13 PM. Reason: occupations
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:04 AM   #2
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots Bloodier than usual today.....

The residents of the village of Storyland awoke feeling slightly odd, but chirpy nevertheless; it was, after all, a beautiful sunny morn.

As they went to and fro however, it became clear that something funny had been going on. Maybe it was just something in the water, but there was, for some reason, much talk about strange visions of Werewolves. Everyone had had one the previous night, apparently. Just a solitary vision, conjured from nowhere, of a terrifying beast, the kind of which had been much told about in the preceding generations of this queer little village.

Being ridiculously superstitious, the villagers got into quite a panic. What did this mean?

They decided to check all the houses in turn. It didn't take long because most of the villagers were already out fretting in the village square. Not all of them though.

"Where's Eomer?" asked someone.

"I expect he's sleeping late, as usual" grumbled another. Eomer of the Rohirrim was not a particularly popular person in this village. Indecent behaviour, that sort of thing....

Anyway, they went to check up on him. At the door there was no answer: the villagers forced their way in. They were confronted with a truly gruesome sight. Eomer had been mangled horrifically. He was barely recognisable, only some observant villagers noted his distinctive hair turned red with blood. Even his books had been cruelly despoiled, so now his philosophic wisdom would never be shared with others.

Who could do such a horrible thing to such a handsome man? wailed the villagers. Superstitions in this case indicated reality: the village now had a werewolf problem.


Living:

Azaelia of Willowbottom
Evisse the Blue
Firefoot
Fordim Hedgethistle
Holbytlass
Kuruharan
mormegil
Oddwen
Shelob
Son of Numenor
the guy who be short
The Only Real Estel
the phantom
The Saucepan Man

Dead:

Eomer of the Rohirrim (Villager) - mangled by werewolves on NIGHT 1

Score:

Werewolves: 3
Villagers: 11

The first DAY has begun now it is 6PM GMT (1PM EST and 12 noon Central). It will end in 24 hours time, or earlier if a majority vote is reached before then.

Villagers, start panicking!
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:13 AM   #3
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
Oh villagers of Storyland, our hamlet takes a blow
Eomer has fallen, unimaginable woe
What can man do against such violent hate?
How can we possibly retaliate?
A blind shot into the dark we must now take
For it is our lives at stake...
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:28 AM   #4
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,467
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
1420! To the bottle we go!

Darn! He was one of my best customers too!

It seems to me that a pint of Saucepan's Old Potbolier is in order. One of my finest ales, it is. Really puts hairs on yer chest ...

Oops! Bad choice of words.

There now. That'll calm the nerves and help us get our thinking caps on.

Now, who could have done such a terrible thing? Any ideas?

*Stares intently at the phantom and Kuruharan*
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:31 AM   #5
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Well sung guy who be short. The best corse of action is to analyse each villager and the werewolf will present him/herself inadvertently based on their responses. Everyone is a suspect currently and we need to hear some defense from indivduals. I would like to hear from two in particular, namely Saucepan Man and Kuruharan. They both live a lifestyle that has made me highly suspect of their character, what with brewing and drinking naught but ale. Now I know that this doesn't imply guilt of murder but we would be wise at looking closely them. And also Kuruharan is new to our village and that casts more doubt on him.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:38 AM   #6
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,467
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Pipe

Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil
... what with brewing and drinking naught but ale.
Since when did this become a valid basis for an accusation of murder? Indeed, my tendency to the bottle inevitably aids me in enjoying a most peaceful night's sleep. Most nights I am incapable of even snuffing out the candle, let alone carrying out a grisly murder.

But what about yourself, friend cleric? Since you are so keen to cast aspersions with not a shred of evidence, perhaps you could explain why we shouldn't be looking to you in this grim matter?
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:39 AM   #7
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 517
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
I don't reckon Mr. Eomer did much for this town in the way of trade or craft, but I'll surely miss his queer storytellin' and musings. I remember on a time I says to him, as I's finishing up building him a third wall for his shack, I says, "Now Mr. Eomer, now that you've got a third wall, how's about I go ahead and build you a fourth?"

"Why?" he replies, in his usual way.

"Why?" I says back to him. "Why, without proper walls you'll have mildew and ants in no time, as sure as you've got books and candles now."

"A man who sees a wall no matter which way he turns is a man who is trapped," he says. I took this to mean he didn't have the funds to pay me for a fourth wall.

"Why that's just silly," says I. "You'll have a door and a window to leave when you like." He just chuckled, as he was wont do to, and thanked me for my work.

No, I may not have understood that feller most of the time, but he was friendly in his way, and I'll miss him. At any rate he might not have fallen victim to those fell beasts had he taken my advice about that wall.

I've got my suspicions about who offed Mr. Eomer. That Firefoot, for one. Not two weeks ago I was painting one of her stables and installing new hinges on her doors, and I noticed her horses were all on edge, neighing and stomping an unusual fair bit. The Guy Who Be Short, too, seemed jealous of Mr. Eomer's learning, always trying to show him up at town book readings and the like.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:44 AM   #8
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Ah, poor Eomer. He was a queer sort, but good with the horses, you see.
Quote:
That Firefoot, for one. Not two weeks ago I was painting one of her stables and installing new hinges on her doors, and I noticed her horses were all on edge, neighing and stomping an unusual fair bit.
They sure were. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me; they've not been like that before or since - until last night, that is. That'd be the werewolves no doubt. It's the oddest thing, don't you think, that they should only be acting up right when you're around, SoN? I tend to go by a rule of thumb that animals have a better judgment of people than people do, so that ought to tell you something.

But then, you never know, with all these strange goings-on there may have been someone else prowling about the stable. Plenty of nooks to hide in, you know, and I can't be everywhere at once.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:50 AM   #9
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Since when did this become a valid basis for an accusation of murder? Indeed, my tendency to the bottle inevitably aids me in enjoying a most peaceful night's sleep. Most nights I am incapable of even snuffing out the candle, let alone carrying out a grisly murder.
Sauepan Man, I am suprised that you didn't read more carefully I said:

Quote:
They both live a lifestyle that has made me highly suspect of their character, what with brewing and drinking naught but ale. Now I know that this doesn't imply guilt of murder but we would be wise at looking closely them
I was questioning your character not accusing you my friend. Now if you find a nasty character there you will likely find nasty deeds.

Quote:
But what about yourself, friend cleric? Since you are so keen to cast aspersions with not a shred of evidence, perhaps you could explain why we shouldn't be looking to you in this grim matter
By all means you should be looking at me, as I said we should be looking at all people. As is well known my nightly routine consists of study, prayer and meditation. After which I retire rather early to bed and sleep rather soundly till just before dawn, unless I am woken by your lot making enough noise to raise the dead.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:52 AM   #10
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I must admit I have no suspicions in particular. I never knew the chap very well, though I can’t say I’ve had much time for chatting lately what with my business as it is and all. He did always greet me when we passed on the street and every once in awhile we’d sit down and have one of Saucey’s brews. That phantom fellow could sometimes make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but I think that might be just because he could make me look like a fool in a battle of wits. So I’m not goin’ and accusing him based on that, just commenting. I can see there’s a problem here that’ll take some attending to, though; so I guess I’ll be having to lay my business aside for awhile or else I’ll be so muddled between the two I’ll need another ale to set me straight.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:56 AM   #11
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
what with brewing and drinking naught but ale.
I do not drink naught but ale. I will also branch out into whiskey and scotch.

Besides, I would think this makes it painfully obvious that I cannot possibly stand up, much less go about killing people much after 10:00 at night.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:08 PM   #12
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,467
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
White-Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil
I was questioning your character not accusing you my friend.
Given our current situation, I would say that mentioning anyone's name is tantamount to an accusation (although staring intently is of course, nothing of the sort ). You asked me to explain myself and I did. I would have thought, though, that my friendly nature was well known throughout the village.

Now, preacherman, it seems to me that those early nights provide plenty of scope for grisly night-time activities without leaving you tired. And perhaps its no coincidence that the victim was a free thinker, one whose philosophising might challenge the strict teachings of the church. I see that his books were left in a state such that his thoughts may no longer be shared ...
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:20 PM   #13
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
And perhaps its no coincidence that the victim was a free thinker, one whose philosophising might challenge the strict teachings of the church. I see that his books were left in a state such that his thoughts may no longer be shared ...
Now that does make a bit of sense. Although our talk rarely ventured beyond village news and such, it was easy enough to see that he was a free thinker. He tried to talk to me a bit about his views on preaching and religion and such, but, well, I’m afraid I’d had a few too many ales by that point and he knew I'd never remember it by morning. What have you to say about it, parson Morm?

Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 06-03-2005 at 12:31 PM.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:32 PM   #14
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Fiendish wolves! Beasts! Murderers!

All right, so now we have to figure out how we’re going to catch these monsters before they devour us all – more importantly, we have to figure out how we’re going to catch these monsters before we do their dirty work for them by lynching one another. As the village loremaster, I’ve spent a lot of time in study on theoretical matters of risk/reward, and I’ve read many chronicles of the past; I do not claim to know the mind of a monster, but I do know that if we don’t work together, they will be able to destroy us one at a time.

Here’s the situation, as I see it. On our side are numbers – and when I say “our side” I mean of course the innocent villagers not you hairy brutes who hide amongst us. So on our side are numbers, and on theirs is information: the wolves know precisely who is a wolf and who is an innocent, and that’s their one real advantage, for while the rest of us are working in the dark they can silently prowl about, nudging us in one direction or another. We need to correct that – we need solid information rather than guesswork or intuition.

Let’s face it, at the beginning of the game there’s little-to-nothing for us to base our judgements on. How and whom people accuse might be genuine or it might be a bluff; it could be a bluff-in-a-bluff: maybe one person accuses another to hide something, to misdirect, or in a genuine move. How someone is “behaving” might be the result of cunning, naivete, a particular strategy, or honesty. The important thing that we have to realise from the outset is that we can’t know anything for certain – only the werewolves have that luxury.

So at the outset the advantage is entirely the wolves’ – their best strategy is to sit back and let the villagers lynch someone without interference from them: since the choice of who to lynch is utterly random (at first) the odds are wildly in the wolves’ favour: and by the time the odds are getting more even, the villagers have lost the game! So how to defeat them…?

Change the odds.

In order to determine who is what, we need hard information. Not speculation or theories; no spurious “logic” or bizarrely convoluted lines of reasoning through the “evidence”, but verifiable facts. And the only facts of this nature that exist in this situation are the votes. Whom one accuses or suspects is irrelevant: again, the speculations could be strategic, bluffs, guesswork, random or arrived at through the kind of spurious reasoning we need to avoid if we are going to survive. How one votes however is a real fact that we can look at to determine patterns and allegiances. So we need to find a way to make the vote work for us and not against us.

The one thing we absolutely must avoid in these early rounds is consensus. If we all move toward voting for the same person, then the wolves will laugh themselves silly. If by some stroke of fortune we are voting for a wolf, the other two can easily hide by joining with us in the vote – if it’s clear their counterpart is going to die anyway, they throw in their lots with us and win the appearance of innocence, falsely casting doubt on any who abstain or vote another way. If we are voting for an innocent, then the wolves’ options increase: they can cast their vote with us, or abstain or even vote another way and use that later as “evidence” that they are innocents too. We need to force their hands…paws.

This is how I would suggest we do that: we ask the mod to randomly select three names for a short list of nominees for lynching. We need this to be a random selection to make sure that the wolves (who know who is guilty or innocent) are as likely to be among the three as are we innocents. Like I said above, the one thing we have to avoid is consensus, so to make sure we spread the votes around we institute the following rules:

First, there will be a short-list for the next round of voting, and this list will be made up of everyone who votes for the lynched person, if that person is an innocent. (If we are lucky enough to catch a werewolf – and the odds are less than 1 in 50 that we will – we should generate another random list for the second round.) This means that voting to lynch someone carries a real threat of danger: the wolves will be in as much danger from the vote as will the innocents – if they want to kill a particular person, they will have to think long and hard about whether they want to automatically be in the short list for next time!

Second, anyone who does not vote is also added to the short-list. We need to force the wolves to vote, and to vote in a way that is meaningful – that’s the only way we can catch them out.

I would recommend that we do this same process until we catch a werewolf – we will then have sufficient information about the wolf’s voting record, which we can match up with the voting records of other people. The purpose of this strategy is that at best it will give the wolves’ less room to manoeuvre and we can catch them out; the worst case scenario is that developing our own strategy will force the wolves to vote according to our rules and not according to their hidden agenda. With a level playing field, our advantage in numbers becomes a true advantage.

One more idea in this already long diatribe: our seer. Whoever they are, they are our greatest asset, but we can’t really use them. The seer has to be extremely guarded in their actions unless they bring down the wolves on them – this means that if the seer is eaten, the evidence left behind might be somewhat fragmentary (“did the seer accuse this person because of a vision or as a gambit?”). We can help the seer by providing camouflage: after each night, we should all declare the results of our “seer vision” – that is, each one of us will put up the name of one other person and whether that person is innocent or a wolf as though each of us is the seer. In these moments, the real seer MUST always tell the absolute truth: this will make it possible for the seer to flag the truth for the other innocents while hiding from the wolves. This might make the seer more visible to the Wolves as the game goes on, but if they know that the seer is leaving behind the real results of true visions with each and every round, to kill the seer is to identify them, which will mean that we will have the benefit of hard information from each seer vision. To kill the seer becomes a terrible risk for the wolves, and not a benefit. As information emerges (through lynchings and wolf attacks) the other villagers will also be in a position to figure out who is the seer alongside the wolves, so perhaps the seer won’t have to die before we can use their information to bag a hairy monster, or two, or three…

Obviously, for these strategies to work, we are all going to have to subscribe to them – so what do you all think? The one thing we must do is work together if we are to have any hope of destroying these monsters. We are our own worst enemies at the moment…
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:38 PM   #15
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Eomer was the first to die?! I'm shocked!

(you can add me as the town crier if you wish, Eomer- as long as you are meaning a law official and not the town moper or weeper)

So, another werewolf attack, eh? I heard that the two villages up the road got taken out by those beasts. There wasn't an army of them though- it was never more than a group of three. But that was enough.

It seems that they did quite a bit of their damage during the day, getting the townspeople to lynch innocents. We must not allow that to happen here.

But how can we avoid it this first day? Without guidance from some sort of seer it is, as short guy (can I call you that?) said, a "shot into the dark".

Seeing as there is no use in logic, we must go with our guts on this day.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go take a walk and figure out what my gut is trying to tell me (if anything).
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:57 PM   #16
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Fordim, your strategy would be excellent for flushing out werewolves if it were mathematically sound. There is a ratio of roughly 4 villagers:1 werewolf; a list of three random people is more likely to include three innocent villagers than even two villagers and one werewolf. At odds of 2 villagers:1 werewolf, such a theory would be plausible, but with only about one-fifth of the people being a werewolf, the odds are pretty bad.

I suppose they're bad anyway, but I'd rather be casting a vote off of a full list that is sure to include werewolves than a random short list which is probable not to have a werewolf.

Your point about not reaching a consensus is understood, but I don't think we need a short list to do so. For the moment, I'd rather keep the field open.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 12:57 PM   #17
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

(just noticed Fordy's post above my last one)

Your ideas for making a lynch list out of people who voted the day before makes me a bit antsy (because I see a way for wolves to exploit it to some degree), but as far as the idea for protecting the seer, I think it's a good one. I do see a way that an extremely risky and devious wolf could use it to his advantage, but it would have a fairly good chance of backfiring on him, so I doubt he'd try it.

Count me in as far as the seer protection goes. Every day I will tell about my "dream" and name a person as innocent or guilty.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:01 PM   #18
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

To clarify: the Seer has not yet dreamed of anybody.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:01 PM   #19
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
The point of my strategy Firefoot is, as you rightly note, not to narrow the odds but to force the Wolves' hands...paws. If we generate a random list of three nominees that is the only way to guarantee that the Wolves have no way of influencing that list. If we try to bash out a list of three names ourselves, we can never be sure that the wolves aren't influencing that selection...in fact, we can be sure that they are influencing the selection. They have the advantage of knowledge, randomizing this first round is the only way to reduce that advantage.

At the very least, I would hope that we could move toward a short list of some kind, and that we could spread the votes around to make sure that each one stands out. I also think that we need to make people accountable for their vote (by having those who vote for an innocent be on the next short list) and to force everyone to vote (by having anyone who does not vote put on the short list).

The point is, we need to flush out the wolves from hiding within our numbers!
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:04 PM   #20
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

While I see your point on the short list, Fody, I think that I would also be more for the seer protection idea than the short list. I think anyone that votes for an innocent to be lynched is automatically elevated to the top of everyone's suspect list, though they might not announce it for everyone to hear/see. And pretty much the same goes for anyone that didn't/couldn't vote, although that's sometimes based more on the villager's 'real life' circumstances.

edit: although we are not supposed to be referring to this as a 'game,' I do need to say just one thing: make sure that in our thinking up ways to make it easier for the us we don't make the village more of a bunch of mathematical processes than the game that it in fact is.

Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 06-03-2005 at 01:35 PM. Reason: lots of them, and cross-posting too much not the least of them ;)
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:09 PM   #21
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom
Your ideas for making a lynch list out of people who voted the day before makes me a bit antsy (because I see a way for wolves to exploit it to some degree)
I makes me antsy too since it puts some peril into our vote -- but that's the point, for it will imperil the Wolves too! The only way the Wolves can exploit it is NOT to vote for the person who is going to be killed if that person is an innocent. But if the vote is close, the wolves will not have a clear idea of who is to die until close to the end of voting -- you see where this is headed...it puts pressure on the wolves: vote early and risk being caught on a short list, or wait until the end and risk being spotted as someone who is afraid to vote...

It's not mathematically perfect or guaranteed, there's no way to develop any system that will do that, but it does mean that the wolves will have to react to what we are doing rather than simply the other way around.

I'm happy that the seer protection plan is getting some good response -- but it will only really work if the seer agrees to do it, which we won't know if he or she has done for a while!!
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:24 PM   #22
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
Danger! Accusations! Fingers pointing left and right!
Squabble if you must, but resolve yourselves by night.

Fordim: The Seer's job is to guide us, as unsuspiciously as possible, in the game. I think having everybody pretend to be a Seer would simply undermine this. Also, as Firefoot says, your ideas are mathematically unsound; for example,
Quote:
If we are lucky enough to catch a werewolf – and the odds are less than 1 in 50 that we will
It is clear you meant 1 in 5, but 3 in 14 is a better chance than 1 in 5, not worse, albeit slightly.
I am opposed to the ideas because having a short list does not seem feasable to me. All three wolves could easily stay off the shortlist by voting for an innocent villager who doesn't end up getting lynched, etc. By keeping everybody votable, we know that we can end up voting for a wolf, even if they influence our decisions.

Another thing that concerns me is Saucy's jesting. Verily, I enjoy jokes as much as the next man, but this seems incredibly out of place when one fifteenth of the hamlet has just been viciously slaughtered. He also voiced suspicion, perhaps jestingly, of Phantom and Kuru without offering any sort of explanation.

Mormegil and Saucy both voiced suspicion of Kuru on the basis that he is a newcomer. I am not aiming suspicion at them here, but would like to take this moment to condemn both Xenophobia and Dwarrowphobia which appear to be rampant amongst our populance.

Sono said
Quote:
The Guy Who Be Short, too, seemed jealous of Mr. Eomer's learning, always trying to show him up at town book readings and the like.
What do you mean trying to show him up? I did show him up, poor soul.
Our Holy Father Mormegil will confirm that I did come to him to ask for guidance over my feelings of jealousy, both of Eomer and of Azaelia whose vegetables seem to be much more popular than mine. With his help, and the help of Eru Iluvatar, I was able to overcome these emotions many months ago.

Finally:
Quote:
Without guidance from some sort of seer it is, as short guy (can I call you that?) said, a "shot into the dark".
I'm generally called TGWBS.

Last edited by the guy who be short; 06-03-2005 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Ironing out a few typos. I should learn to use the "preview post" button, shouldn't I?
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:42 PM   #23
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
He also voiced suspicion, perhaps jestingly, of Phantom and Kuru without offering any sort of explanation
I think that this can surely be written off as jest-Kuru and Phantom have hardly been trustworthy figures in two past occasions (that I can’t name more fully because past villages aren’t supposed to be referenced ). A hard look at the beginning can really be no more than jest in my opinion.

Quote:
Mormegil and Saucy both voiced suspicion of Kuru on the basis that he is a newcomer
I am not about to vouch for either Morm’s or Saucey’s innocence, but I will say that if you’re going to be suspicious because of accusations you have to be cautious. Someone has to cast the first stone, and history has generally been against those that do, and often unjustly.

I myself am one to wait until more evidence is heard, but what concrete evidence can we have until more unfolds? I would not wish for any further deaths solely for the purposes of having more evidence, but neither do I wish to cast hasty suspicions and votes and lynch an innocent! What to do?

edit: I am now split on the seer idea. I do see how it would help the villagers (that seems pretty obvious), but I also see 'short guy's' point about how it could potentially undermine some of the basic guesswork and sleuthing that are involved in the four-letter-word-that-starts-with-'g.'

Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 06-03-2005 at 02:09 PM. Reason: concerns on the seer 'protection' idea
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:51 PM   #24
Holbytlass
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Holbytlass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Party Tree
Posts: 1,096
Holbytlass has just left Hobbiton.
I kinda like the protecting of the seer idea. I'm not going to comment about the voting idea because, right now, I'm confused. And so sad for that rascal, Eomer.
__________________
Holby is an actual flesh-and-blood person, right? Not, say a sock-puppet of Nilp’s, by any chance? ~Nerwen, WWCIII
Holbytlass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:56 PM   #25
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

It seems to me that Fordim has provided a sounding board to gauge people's reactions (and perhaps gauge his own motives in offering it). However, the difficulty is knowing what to make of the observations...
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 02:19 PM   #26
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Given our current situation, I would say that mentioning anyone's name is tantamount to an accusation (although staring intently is of course, nothing of the sort ). You asked me to explain myself and I did. I would have thought, though, that my friendly nature was well known throughout the village.

Now, preacherman, it seems to me that those early nights provide plenty of scope for grisly night-time activities without leaving you tired. And perhaps its no coincidence that the victim was a free thinker, one whose philosophising might challenge the strict teachings of the church. I see that his books were left in a state such that his thoughts may no longer be shared ...
So if I understand correctly it is acceptable to accuse one if is implied by what is said just so long as we don't name any names? I merely state my suspicions (taking a big risk I might add) and that is equivalent to accusing but somehow there is a difference when you accuse but don't say my name?

Now as far as it goes with Eomer's free thinking, I readily admit that we didn't see eye to eye on many issues, however He and I had many a lively debate and chat that we each enjoyed to share ideas and express differences. Sadly those will no longer be held due to his demise by those fiendish wolves.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 03:11 PM   #27
Evisse the Blue
Brightness of a Blade
 
Evisse the Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I may roam
Posts: 2,740
Evisse the Blue has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Yahoo to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Skype™ to Evisse the Blue
Rest in peace, brave handsome Eomer! No more shall he taste of my fish.

Well, Mr Loremaster, speaking for myself as a simple wench, you've gotten us to a heck of a start here proposing a fine strategy and all, but one in which we trust to luck more than I am happy to. However I can see how, at this point, all of us are pretty much 'dancing in the dark', so to speak, so your idea of making this an organized waltz may not be so bad. The idea seems good and you put it very nice and proper, Mr Fordim. However, and you'll forgive me for being so discourteous, but I can't believe that a man of lore such as yourself overlooked Firefoot's objection, which I'd say it's pretty important: random selection does seem to favour the werewolves. In the event that we get really unlucky, we will slay quite a few innocents before a werewolf is even selected, and none of the other innocents can be blamed for voting for innocents, as long as they're the only ones on the list.
The seer idea is interesting, but blind luck could also be against us, even here, at least at the first stages.
However, because a decision must be reached, and being an optimist sort of person, I'll say we go with it and see where it leads us.
__________________
And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.
Evisse the Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 03:34 PM   #28
Shelob
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Shelob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall.
Posts: 308
Shelob has just left Hobbiton.
"Wilt thou, O God, fly from such gentle lambs,
And throw them in the entrails of the wolf?"
(Richard III. IV.iv)

What horror! O what plauge hath now befallen our poor Storyland. 'Tis sorrowful indead that no more should our worse fear be the forgetting of a line or plot.

As to what has here been said before mine entrance I have no qualms with the plan to protect the seer. It seems like 'twill give the hairy fiends a double headache in their nightly plots. I do however feel the much debated "short-list voting" to be lacking somewhat in mathmatics. I agree that 'twould double the werewolves already doubled headaches but I do agree there are to many innocents per wolf for it to be of any major use. Perhaps 'twould be better not to limit the voting but to each morn list the records of all previous voting. 'Twould then accomplish the same thing in that it would give us a clear record of voting habits but 'twould also not limit those for whom we can vote and so does not risk the same statistical problems as the current plan.
__________________
A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar.
Pan for Everyone!
Shelob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 04:03 PM   #29
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
Surely protecting the Seer only to neutralise his / her powers is paradoxical?
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 04:16 PM   #30
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Surely protecting the Seer only to neutralise his / her powers is paradoxical?
I think the reasoning is that should the seer be killed we would know exactly who s/he dreamed about each night and whether they were innocent or guilty.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 04:20 PM   #31
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

I wouldn't say it neutralizes the power of the seer. The purpose is not only to make it more difficult for the wolves to pick out the seer, but also to make the seer's death extremely valuable to the villagers. If the seer is killed during the night we simply look back at the first post the seer made each day and see who he has declared guilty (or innocent).

Sure, it will be difficult to follow the seer while he is alive, but it wasn't exactly easy before so we aren't being hurt very much by that.

Plus, the seer, if he wants to, will still have ways of outing himself.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.

Last edited by the phantom; 06-03-2005 at 04:24 PM.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 04:24 PM   #32
the guy who be short
Shadowed Prince
 
the guy who be short's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,496
the guy who be short has just left Hobbiton.
I guess it would give a greater advantage after the Seer's death. However, before the death, it would mean that the ordinary villagers wouldn't receive any real help from the Seer who is meant to subtly help and convince them. If everybody pretends they are the Seer, this advice is drowned, so preserving the Seer serves no purpose.

So much deep thought...
In light of the recent tragedy, I'm offering free Eomer Memorial Carrots to all members of the hamlet.
the guy who be short is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 04:37 PM   #33
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 6,121
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

Quote:
If everybody pretends they are the Seer, this advice is drowned
It's not so much that everyone is going to be acting like the seer, but that everyone will be making a guilty or innocent declaration at the beginning of each day. After a villager makes his declaration, it is entirely up to him whether or not to follow it up the rest of the day with accusations.

In other words, I could start off tomorrow by saying "I dreamed that Mormegil was a wolf", but then proceed to spend most of my efforts attacking Saucy and actually vote for him. On the other hand, I could go after Mormegil full force as if I knew I was correct. You see, there are still ways for a seer to stand a bit apart.

But you are right that the plan works the best when the seer is killed. This makes it so that if the werewolves think they know who the seer is, they might gamble on keeping him alive so as not to kill themselves. But if the werewolves correctly identify the seer, it is completely possible that a couple of us villagers will as well and will then follow the seer even before his death.

Obviously it isn't flawless and with bad luck it could really hurt us, but hey- I can't see why we can't give it a shot.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 05:07 PM   #34
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I'm not sure that I like the protecting the seer idea. I think that it will in fact give the wolves more advantage. The more I meditate on this matter the more convinced I am that it is not the best course of action. If any innocent villager for example were to say I think Person X is the wolf, which if they are not the seer is a complete guess, and it turns out that Person X is also an innocent but wasn't lynched, could not the wolves then kill the initial innocent and fingers would be pointed at Person X the next day? I really don't think this is our best way. Also using the same example let’s assume that Person X is lynched will not suspicion be cast upon the person that in an effort to protect the seer guessed Person X. No this option gives too much advantage to the wolves and will just cause confusion and discord among us the true villagers.

Edit: Also I don't think the short list idea will work for the simple reason that the mod would need to generate that list, as fordim stated. I don't want to speak for him, however I do not think that the rules will change once it has started.
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 06:37 PM   #35
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Hmm...much strategizing is afoot here. However, something eventually has to give...

It seems to me that as far as Fordim is concerned he is either offering his idea honestly thinking it will benefit the villagers or he is a werewolf trying to pull the pelt over our eyes.

If he's honest then we should perhaps look at people opposing him. If he's not we should look at people supporting him.

Of course, how do you tell which is which...that is the question.

Barkeep! Bring me another plate of ribs...that's cattle ribs mind you.

On second thought I think I'll have a nice salad...and keep the drinks coming.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 06:50 PM   #36
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
I'm not really sure about the seer-protection idea. It sounds good, but it seems to me that it could be a real tool for the werewolves; they would probably figure out who the seer is before any of the rest of us, possibly very quickly. You see, if everyone points someone out, the wolves will know immediately if they are telling the truth.

For example:

Let's say Person X. Say Person Y is an ordinary villager. Person Y says: "I dreamt Person X is innocent." Now, the werewolves would know that Person Y was not the seer, because this whole concept is based on the seer telling the truth. This also works in the reverse: Say Person Z, also an ordinary villager, says, "I dreamt Person Y is a wolf." Likewise, the wolves would know Person Z is not the seer, because they obviously know Person Y is not a wolf.

I think we can all agree that having the wolves knowing who the seer is is not in the best interest of the rest of us innocent villagers.

Besides the fact that the whole concept breeds confusion, as mormegil's post clearly illustrates (I think I understand it... ).

And I still have reservations about the short list; actually, I think that in gauging people's reactions to the proposition that we will have a better chance of knocking out a wolf anyway.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 08:10 PM   #37
mormegil
Maundering Mage
 
mormegil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,632
mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.mormegil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
I'm sorry if my explinations are even more bemuddled than usual. I am feeling rather ill today and it's difficult to think clearly. Basically what I was trying to say is this:

Person Y is innocent
Person X is innocent

In an attempt to protect the seer Y states that X is a wolf. Let's assume Person X wasn't lynched that day, the werewolves could use this to their advantage and kill Person Y which would cast suspicion on Person X.

Also if Person Y were to say that X is a wolf and he was lynched, of course the village would find him to be innocent than we are likely to want to lynch Person Y although he is innocent too.

Firefoot brought up a great point too. I think this has to many holes in it to provide effective cover. I think what Kuruharan said has some merit to it.

Quote:
Kuruharan-- Hmm...much strategizing is afoot here. However, something eventually has to give...

It seems to me that as far as Fordim is concerned he is either offering his idea honestly thinking it will benefit the villagers or he is a werewolf trying to pull the pelt over our eyes.

If he's honest then we should perhaps look at people opposing him. If he's not we should look at people supporting him.

Of course, how do you tell which is which...that is the question.

Barkeep! Bring me another plate of ribs...that's cattle ribs mind you.

On second thought I think I'll have a nice salad...and keep the drinks coming.
First dwarves having salad? What an odd thing .

Secondly and more important I would like to know you're true feelings regarding this matter Kuru not just this safe guarded statement. You sound more like a elf than a dwarf never saying yea or nay
__________________
When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.
-- P. J. O'Rourke
mormegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 08:34 PM   #38
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Boots

Quote:
Secondly and more important I would like to know you're true feelings regarding this matter Kuru not just this safe guarded statement. You sound more like a elf than a dwarf never saying yea or nay
Icky, yucky, pooo!!!!

Hmm...why are you so interested?

If you really want to know (and this statement has the nature of an OCC) I think the idea is flirting with the nether-regions of a rule change rather than just a tactical gambit.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 08:34 PM   #39
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I feel the need to analize at least a few villagers as I see that our time for decisions is approaching the half-way mark.

Fordim seems to be sitting in a nice spot. He has referred before to a sort of 'system' that he had figured out before--only he never got the chance to explain it. It could be that he is now implementing it to really help us, or it could be that, being a werewolf, he sees this as a convienent time to bring out his system. Surely no one that would go to such great lengths to help us could in fact be scheming behind the scenes, right? Um...right? One can't help but be a bit suspicious, but I'm not ready to lynch him on the what might turn out to be extremely faulty grounds (when has seeking to help those around us ever been grounds for lynching?).

Whether we end up implementing Fordim's plan or not seems to remain to be seen. I'm caught in the middle of it myself (as I've said before). If it is to be a gauge for us to discern werewolves who are reluctant to set it up, we should be at least casting a glance or two in the direct of the guy who be short. He has been rather adament about not liking the changes, so that could be looked upon as suspicious. At the same time I realize that he could have perfectly impeccable motives for not liking the new plan--as I said I myself have reservations but neither do I suspect myself.

As to Mormegil, I think we can be fairly certain that we know absolutely nothing about his innocence or guiltiness. One cannot proclaim him guilty simply because of his profession (one could argue that because my business has fallen on hard times that makes me a desperate man [or wolf], so our choices of employment cannot realy be used against us).

What it comes down to is first roundishness, pure & simple. Very few facts, and so very few accusations. None of us want to make a snap accusation or vote, because we will be looked upon darkly if the lynchee (is that a word? now it is...) turns out to be innocent. But if no stones are cast, we cannot hope to stop the fiends. It is a pretty corner that we've been painted into. I personally have only one villager that I am keeping a close eye on, but I hardly have enough evidence to share him/her with the rest of you yet...
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 09:56 PM   #40
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 517
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
The werewolves destroyed both the other villages; I say we might as well try Fordim's idea, logical or no. The only problem is that we may not be able to get the moderator to generate a random list before the day is through.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:25 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.