What happened to Beleriand? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

draggonklaw · 02-14-2001, 06:32 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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In the Silmarillion map of Beleriand, the Blue Mtns (Ered Luin) run North to South on the East side of the map and disappear. In the LotR map of ME, they appear in the North-west coming down from the Ice bay of Forochel, and come to an end at the Gulf of Lhun, near the Grey Havens.
Does that mean that Beleriand is under Ice now? Did the polar ice caps melt and cover Beleriand? did the deluge on Numenor cover Beleriand as well? What happened?

</p>

enep · 02-14-2001, 08:01 PM

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Beleriand

At the end of the First Age, the host of the Valar marched forth in the War of Wrath and Beleriand was completely destroyed and in that tumult was thrown under the sea. Very few remnants of it remain...Water flowed in through the Blue Mountains and split them in two, forming the Gulf of Lhun. The Ice Bay/Cape of Forochel are what I assume to be the remnants of the Helcaraxe, the Grinding Ice. Polar Ice Caps did not melt due to high amounts of pipe-smoke being released into the ME atmosphere, and Beleriand was long gone by the time Numenor went under.

Have you got the Silmarillion, draggonklaw, formerly known as Eledhgil? <img src=wink.gif ALT="

">

- enep</p>

draggonklaw · 02-14-2001, 08:20 PM

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Re: Beleriand

Yeah enep, But I haven't been thru it in a long time. Right now I'm working my way back thru LotR again. I just wanted to throw out some more topics to get things rolling. I figure that even if they are simple ones, it'll be good for all the newcomers on the site (Esp. me! I'm a ME novice).

</p>

enep · 02-14-2001, 11:09 PM

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Re: Beleriand

Oh ok. I read it about a month ago <img src=wink.gif ALT="

"> Always good to start a few new topics.

- enep</p>

***Mithadan*** · 02-15-2001, 07:51 AM

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Re: Beleriand

The drowning of Beleriand is a little bit of a mystery. Did it happen abruptly or gradually and how? JRRT in some earlier writings suggests that Beleriand was not completely destroyed by the War of Wrath but that the "job" was finished by waves, etc. at the time Numenor was destroyed. There is a thread discussing this a few pages back. Hard to reach concrete conclusions.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

***Mister Underhill*** · 02-15-2001, 09:50 AM

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Re: Beleriand

Where does JRRT ponder this prickly question, Mith? I'd like to look that up. You have to figure there was time for all the "good guys" (and apparently a few Orcs and the odd Balrog, too) to relocate to the east before the destruction.

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 02-15-2001, 11:58 AM

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Re: Beleriand

I'll have to look it up but I believe it was HoME 5 where the early Numenor myths are first discussed. The gradual vs. abrupt submersion idea stems from prior discussion here and, to my knowledge, is not addressed directly by JRRT. Two ways to look at it I guess. Either the destruction of Beleriand was gradual, allowing people time to leave, or it was abrupt, but occurring in intervals throughout the War (which lasted 50 years if I recall) allowing people to get out of the way.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Child of the 7th Age · 07-15-2002, 12:47 AM

Pio -- Here is more on sinking Beleriand. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

piosenniel · 07-15-2002, 01:29 AM

Thanks, Child! Still no resolution, eh?!

Birdland · 07-15-2002, 06:30 AM

Perhaps we had another Deus Ex Machina moment and the Eagles swept down and got everyone out of the way. Hmmmmm, maybe that should be Deus Ex Aquila?

Those Eagles were sure handy-dandy critters!

mark12_30 · 07-15-2002, 07:59 AM

Re: the eagles, the impression that I got is that they are closely connected to Manwe (air, sky, spirit...) I think it was in the Silm that got mentioned a couple of times. It seems to me that Manwe watches, waiting, and when the folks on the ground have done what they can, and are almost there but in a tight fix, Manwe has mercy and sends the eagles. That was my impression. So is it a Deux Es Machina, or is it "Manwe finally decided to give us a hand at last??" And... which is more frustrating? I guess with Manwe in the picture, I at least feel that there is character development going on, and heroism matters. The hero has to get most of the way there, and show some serious character, and motivation and courage.

There's just some supernatural assistance to push things over the edge when it gets a bit tight.

That fits in, really, with the catholic view of divine assistance-- you gotta earn it by doing your part-- and Tolkien was catholic. It's not quite "God helps them who help themselves", it's more like "Show God you are serious before you ask him to join your team." (Or something like that.)

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

02-14-2001, 06:32 PM	#1
draggonklaw Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 40	What happened to Beleriand? <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 17</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> In the Silmarillion map of Beleriand, the Blue Mtns (Ered Luin) run North to South on the East side of the map and disappear. In the LotR map of ME, they appear in the North-west coming down from the Ice bay of Forochel, and come to an end at the Gulf of Lhun, near the Grey Havens. Does that mean that Beleriand is under Ice now? Did the polar ice caps melt and cover Beleriand? did the deluge on Numenor cover Beleriand as well? What happened? </p>

02-14-2001, 08:01 PM	#2
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 317</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Beleriand At the end of the First Age, the host of the Valar marched forth in the War of Wrath and Beleriand was completely destroyed and in that tumult was thrown under the sea. Very few remnants of it remain...Water flowed in through the Blue Mountains and split them in two, forming the Gulf of Lhun. The Ice Bay/Cape of Forochel are what I assume to be the remnants of the Helcaraxe, the Grinding Ice. Polar Ice Caps did not melt due to high amounts of pipe-smoke being released into the ME atmosphere, and Beleriand was long gone by the time Numenor went under. Have you got the Silmarillion, draggonklaw, formerly known as Eledhgil? <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> - enep</p> __________________ - enep

02-14-2001, 11:09 PM	#4
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 323</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand Oh ok. I read it about a month ago <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Always good to start a few new topics. - enep</p> __________________ - enep

02-15-2001, 07:51 AM	#5
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 611</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand The drowning of Beleriand is a little bit of a mystery. Did it happen abruptly or gradually and how? JRRT in some earlier writings suggests that Beleriand was not completely destroyed by the War of Wrath but that the "job" was finished by waves, etc. at the time Numenor was destroyed. There is a thread discussing this a few pages back. Hard to reach concrete conclusions. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

02-15-2001, 11:58 AM	#7
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 616</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand I'll have to look it up but I believe it was HoME 5 where the early Numenor myths are first discussed. The gradual vs. abrupt submersion idea stems from prior discussion here and, to my knowledge, is not addressed directly by JRRT. Two ways to look at it I guess. Either the destruction of Beleriand was gradual, allowing people time to leave, or it was abrupt, but occurring in intervals throughout the War (which lasted 50 years if I recall) allowing people to get out of the way. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

02-14-2001, 08:20 PM	#3
draggonklaw Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 40	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 23</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand Yeah enep, But I haven't been thru it in a long time. Right now I'm working my way back thru LotR again. I just wanted to throw out some more topics to get things rolling. I figure that even if they are simple ones, it'll be good for all the newcomers on the site (Esp. me! I'm a ME novice). </p>

02-15-2001, 09:50 AM	#6
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 443</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Beleriand Where does JRRT ponder this prickly question, Mith? I'd like to look that up. You have to figure there was time for all the "good guys" (and apparently a few Orcs and the odd Balrog, too) to relocate to the east before the destruction. </p>

07-15-2002, 12:47 AM	#8
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Pio -- Here is more on sinking Beleriand. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

07-15-2002, 01:29 AM	#9
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Thanks, Child! Still no resolution, eh?! __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-15-2002, 06:30 AM	#10
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Perhaps we had another Deus Ex Machina moment and the Eagles swept down and got everyone out of the way. Hmmmmm, maybe that should be Deus Ex Aquila? Those Eagles were sure handy-dandy critters!

07-15-2002, 07:59 AM	#11
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Re: the eagles, the impression that I got is that they are closely connected to Manwe (air, sky, spirit...) I think it was in the Silm that got mentioned a couple of times. It seems to me that Manwe watches, waiting, and when the folks on the ground have done what they can, and are almost there but in a tight fix, Manwe has mercy and sends the eagles. That was my impression. So is it a Deux Es Machina, or is it "Manwe finally decided to give us a hand at last??" And... which is more frustrating? I guess with Manwe in the picture, I at least feel that there is character development going on, and heroism matters. The hero has to get most of the way there, and show some serious character, and motivation and courage. There's just some supernatural assistance to push things over the edge when it gets a bit tight. That fits in, really, with the catholic view of divine assistance-- you gotta earn it by doing your part-- and Tolkien was catholic. It's not quite "God helps them who help themselves", it's more like "Show God you are serious before you ask him to join your team." (Or something like that.) [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.