Entwives going West?

[Noxomanus]

I see a lot of discussion in here is about the Entwives,but as far as I know no one has mentioned some information that's given.It might be interesting to know that in the Ent/Entwive song,in the "Treebeard" chapter the Ent and the Entwive are singing about going west.So maybe the Entwives (and possibly some Ents too) fled to Valinor.What's more,the Entwives claimed to know more beautiful gardens,where else then in Valinor could these be? This could explain why the possible "Shire Ent/Entwive" was there,it might have been going to the Grey Havens. Ents don't seem to be mortal,do they?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

You know, it seems like a ludicrously simple, easy, basic question. But none of us has any idea. Tolkien imagined maybe they'd been wiped out in their gardens near Dagorlad, and in the brown lands. Some could have been taken as slaves (there is a theory that is where the Olog-Hai came from), and farmed the bleak fields near Rhun. A lot of people theorize that the creature cousin Hal saw on the north-marches, which was tall as an elm (and from the conversation looked like one too), was an Ent, but it could have been a troll or giant as well. Remember that fleeing west did not necessarily entail going to Valinor, the forests and hills around the Blue Mountains were fairly safe places to be. I actually assume that the thing seen was an Ent, not an Entwife, who may have wandered from the forests at the south-western Misty Mountains to Rivendell, and then passed west through Rhudaur and onward because of Saruman, or Dunlenders, or something of the like. Maybe even it fled because of the return of the shadow, or the demon of Moria. I don't really know if it was an Entwife or not, nor what finally happened to them though. But I do love a good enigma.

[Galadriel55]

On one hand, the songs say that the Ents and Entwives will one day be reunited. Where? Possibly in Valinor - all thats left of the ancient world - elves, Istari, etc. - will eventually go there. It is possible that ents, who belong to the old world, will also have to leave. All the characters have their own time to go to Valinor: some have already gone, and some will leave later on. They all leave after they've done all that they could in ME. Possibly, the entwives have played their role, so when their gardent were destroyed they were taken to Valinor, probably by Yavanna. The ents still had to destroy Isengard - so they weren't finished in ME at the same time as entwives, so they will be taken to Valinor some time after Frodo leaves ME.

On the other hand, though, it just seems impossible for them to meet ever again if they are not taken to Valinor.It would be such a beautiful tragic ending...

[Findegil]

Dwarves also belong to the "old world" as you call it. But only one single Dwarf ever left Middle-Earth going to Valinor. In addition I can't find any evidence in the books for Ents going to Valinor.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Dwarves also belong to the "old world" as you call it. But only one single Dwarf ever left Middle-Earth going to Valinor. In addition I can't find any evidence in the books for Ents going to Valinor.

You can say that humans also belong to the old world the same way as dwarves do. Neither is really true, though. Yes, they did exist in the 1st age, but they were like secondary creatures in ME. the Eldar were the "masters" of Belleriand. Now, however, the Elves not only for the minority of ME, but they are nearly forgotten (by that I mean that humans and dwarves forgot what elves are REALLY like and made up a bunch of tales about them). Only a very small number of people (like the Dunadains) still remember and respect the Eldar.
About the ents going to Valinot - it does not say so directly, but LOTR does mention, when talking of Elven songs, that they say that "they will meet overseas". There is one known place overseas that is a good candidate for the meeting spot - Valinor.

I am not enforcing my viewpoint, this is just my opinion. You could think differently

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You can say that humans also belong to the old world in the same way as Dwarves do. Neither is really true, though. Yes, they did exist in the 1st Age, but they were like secondary creatures in ME. The Eldar were the "masters" of Beleriand.

I think you're making a bit of a mistake by apparently equating Beleriand with Middle-earth. Beleriand was only the northwestern tip of Middle-earth, and once you get east of it, this Elvish dominance drops off. True, the Nandor/Silvan Elves are present in considerable numbers in Eriador, Rhovanion, and down into what later becomes Gondor, and there were probably sizable numbers of Avari to the East... but the dominant civilised culture in Eriador and Rhovanion is that of the Dwarves. True, Khazad-dûm's power waxes in the first half of the Second Age, when it holds suzerainty over the Edain-esque men by the mountains, but the Dwarves already had Khazad-dûm itself, plus Gundabad and likely the Iron Hills (cf. "Of Dwarves and Men" in HoME vol. XII). Meanwhile, in the Blue Mountains--abutting right against Beleriand and oft involved with it you have the mighty cities of Nogrod and Belegost.

It is true that The Silmarillion is our primary narrative of the events of the First Age. It is true also that it is decidedly Elf-centred (or more accurately, Elda-centred, or even Noldo-centred). This does not mean, however, that the Elves were really the "majority" race of the First Age. They were the Firstborn, yes... but with the rising of the Sun and the dawn of the First Age (of the Sun, remember) all the races are awake, and the Dwarves have had almost as long as the Sindar to be making a civilisation for themselves... and I would say they've done a fine job at it.

As regards the Elves and Ents remeeting in Valinor--you are correct that Galadriel seems to hold this out as a possibility when she takes her leaves of Treebeard, but it's merely a hope, as I read it.

[Galadriel55]

I agree about what you said about Belleriand. But still, elves were the top civilization of the time, even if they were outnumbered by other races. They sort of held the wisdom of the Valar.

[Findegil]

Posted by Galadriel55:

I am not enforcing my viewpoint, this is just my opinion. You could think differently.

Oh, be not afraid, I will do so!

'Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farwell!'

That is exactly what Galadriel said to Fangorn at the parting. Since she herself is already on her way to Valinor, it seems that she does not at all believe that Ents would one day come to Valinor.

In my opinion the time Galadriel refers to, is Arda healed – the one think that Elves could hope for when their long lives ended finally with the end of Arda marred in Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

Tolkien also noted...

But I think in Vol. II pp. 80-81 it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' - but the Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory'...'

JRRT, Letter 338

Aman had been removed from the World, and I think the Ents were left to find somewhere within Middle-earth until the End.

[Nerwen]

I believe Findegil's right. Note that Tasirinan (=Nan-tathren) was in Beleriand, not Valinor.

The song about the Ents and Entwives in The Lord of the Rings does perhaps hint at them going to Valinor ("together we will take the road that leads into the west"), however if so I think that's meant to be wishful thinking. I don't have the books with me right now, but from memory, doesn't Treebeard himself regard it as a bit of Elven whimsy, rather than a prophecy?

EDIT:X'd with Galin.

[Galadriel55]

"the time Galadriel refers to, is Arda healed "
It is possible, Findegil. After all, many things are supposed to reunite when Arda will be remade (for example, the Silmarils). However, I've always thought that the healing of Arda is a process pretty much similar to fixing, let's say, a toy car. You take it apart, you clean all the little pieces and take out all the dirt that got stuck in it, but when you put it back together, it functions totally differently than it did before. I don't ean better - literally differently. What would the healing of Arda look like? I don't think that even the roles of different rces are going to remain the same.
"doesn't Treebeard himself regard it as a bit of Elven whimsy, rather than a prophecy" but don't elven profecies, even whimsies, eventually prove to be true?

[Morthoron]

Well, ents or entwives could tie themselves together into rafts and just float to Valinor. They would be their own flotation devices, as well as masts. They could get the dogwoods to paddle.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"the time Galadriel refers to, is Arda healed "
It is possible, Findegil. After all, many things are supposed to reunite when Arda will be remade (for example, the Silmarils). However, I've always thought that the healing of Arda is a process pretty much similar to fixing, let's say, a toy car. You take it apart, you clean all the little pieces and take out all the dirt that got stuck in it, but when you put it back together, it functions totally differently than it did before. I don't ean better - literally differently. What would the healing of Arda look like? I don't think that even the roles of different rces are going to remain the same.

Sorry if this sounds rude, Galadriel55, but I honestly don't understand what this has to do with the question.

And it's not just "possible"– I think it can only mean that, or else a roundabout way of saying "never": Galadriel is talking about meeting Treebread in a place which had been destroyed long ago.

By the way–

You take it apart, you clean all the little pieces and take out all the dirt that got stuck in it, but when you put it back together, it functions totally differently than it did before.

I hate to break this to you, but that's not what's supposed to happen when you fix a toy car.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"doesn't Treebeard himself regard it as a bit of Elven whimsy, rather than a prophecy" but don't elven profecies, even whimsies, eventually prove to be true?

Again sorry, but you're begging the question here. I'm not sure it is a prophecy in the first place, and if it is I'm not sure it refers to Valinor anyway.

[Galadriel55]

The car was a bad example. I'll try another one. Imagine you're making a puzzle - actually making it, not just solving it. When you put in together, tho, you don't like the way a certain piece looks. To change it, however, you need to change the surrounding pieces as well. The result is that when the new puzzle is put together, it looks totally different without the bad piece.
When Sauron was destroyed, the last of the "Old World" had to leave ME, because the reoval of Sauron changed the world....and that makes the entire picture look different, not only that one piece of the puzzle......
Is this explanation better?

It is also possible that the ents' souls returned to Valinor. The souls - spirits? - of Elves go to Mandos, so why can't ents? They are living creatures just the same. That means that they'd have the perfect opportunity to reunite with the entwives. Maybe it's not specifically in Mandos, but somewhere in Aman. Perhaps Yavanna will make her own place to keep the souls of her creatures.

[Mnemosyne]

It is also possible that the ents' souls returned to Valinor. The souls - spirits? - of Elves go to Mandos, so why can't ents? They are living creatures just the same. That means that they'd have the perfect opportunity to reunite with the entwives. Maybe it's not specifically in Mandos, but somewhere in Aman. Perhaps Yavanna will make her own place to keep the souls of her creatures.

They aren't living creatures just the same. Souls are only confirmed for the Eruhini--Elves and Men. It's always seemed to me that the Valar-created speakers are fundamentally different in that respect. We get the most information for Dwarves--Durin is reincarnated in one of his children--but even that is shrouded in mystery. I don't think you can assume anything, even the existence of souls, in an Ent or a Dwarf or an Eagle. They may be sentient, but they lack the theme of Iluvatar which sets Elves and Men apart from the rest of creation.

That isn't to say that your idea couldn't happen, but it's mere speculation and the little evidence we have seems to be against it. It'd make for a wicked fan fic, though.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Souls are only confirmed for the Eruhini--Elves and Men.

I'm not so sure. Dwarves, we are told, were given "a life of their own" by Eru who told Aule "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur ... so now I have taken thy desire and given to it a place therein."

That could be ambiguous, but almost immediately Eru refers to the Dwarves as "the children of my adoption" suggesting that they had Fea as did Men and Elves - tho their fates may well have been different from both.

Later in the same tale (Of Aule and Yavanna) Manwe tells Yavanna (referring to Ents)

Eru hath spoken, saying ... When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar ... and their just anger shall be feared.

It seems clear from that last that Ents do have spirits (Fea) like the Eruhini (tho Ents would then also be children of Eru's adoption, similar to the Dwarves.

One other item to consider. The Music didn't (and was never intended to) tell everything as in this quote from Ainulindale

To none but himself has Illuvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

So it would not be inconsistent if Eru DID decide to add new incarnated beings (with Fea).