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Old 12-14-2005, 02:35 PM   #1
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LotR1-FotR-Seq09

If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! – Ecclesiastes 4:10

Note that the Council of Elrond was one of my favorite chapters in FotR. You get more back-story, like when in the Shire with the Shadow of the Past, about what's really going on. But here we are in PJ's version.

Elrond starts the Council out, and he looks as happy as ever. You get the feeling that he's still thinking about that day, 3000 years ago. And what's with the stature with the cymbals? As Elrond continues depressing everyone we get shots of some of the main players: Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir, Frodo.

Is it me or does Lord Elrond skip about the area a bit, once near his throne, suddenly elsewhere, then back again by the wooden throne?

Frodo brings forth the One Ring. He sets it down without hesitation in the middle of this group. And I have no idea who the other people in the room are with the exception of Elrond and the members of the soon-to-be-Fellowship.

We cut immediately to Boromir, and some…Ring, I mean some thing has caught his attention, and he begins muttering while Aragorn looks on. Frodo returns to his seat, and Gandalf nods as in 'well done, Frodo lad.' But to me it looked like Ian nodded to someone about a foot or so higher than Frodo, but you can’t have all of the scenes perfect.

We get more shots, and now we've included Gimli. No one knows where to start or what to say. Thankfully Boromir is there to break the ice, but then he starts talking about some dream that he had and seems to be already going over the Rauros without an oar or two. He reaches for the Ring. Elrond yells at him, and I'm sure that he was going to go into the Isildur story.

Luckily Gandalf shouts him down with some Black Speech.

The effect of Lord Sauron's words rendered in the native tongue causes havoc. The sky darkens. Gimli feels threatened and goes for his axe. The ground shakes. Elrond has a migraine, but this may have also been due to not being able to tell Boromir 'the story.' Is that why Elrond welcomed travelers, so that he would have fresh ears to beat? Is it clear to non-reader’s what Gandalf just said? And why did he raise his hand?

Gandalf stops, and sunlight returns to the council, and Boromir to his seat.

Elrond has something new to complain about.

Gandalf does not apologize, but his next words do not make sense. I would have thought that he would have said, "if you don't want to hear that 24/7, then we better do something about this Ring and its owner," not, "I’m not apologizing, and that Ring is altogether evil." Did you forget a line in between, O Grey Wanderer? I love that inscription upon the One Ring causes such an effect. Too bad I can’t get the same case of willies from (1) the Eye, (2) the Nazgul and (3) the One Ring. Oh, that’s right, it’s E-V-I-L. Ooo! Scary!

Boromir (by the by, I like Sean Bean's portrayal of the Steward’s heir) asks the sensible question that many in the audience might likewise be asking. He starts in to his 'you owe me and Gondor this boon' speech, and Aragorn is put out a bit. But why, as Strider is in self-imposed exile, there are no other Rangers as far as we know, and no one protects the Shire. The elves are leaving, and seemingly the Dwarves are miners with poor social skills. Aragorn asserts himself with more of the wizard's words - no one except for Frodo knows what the Ring does, and who knows to what it could be put? We simply know that it is EVIL.

Yep. Evil. Lars yes.

And what's that elf princeling saying? Clue to Legolas: Aragorn is in exile, is not a king or The King, and as I understand it not only has no title but also pays full rate at Barliman's. Leave Boromir alone! Or do all elves misunderstand humans so well?

Boromir is surprised that Aragorn is Isildur's heir? Like the name Aragorn means anything. It’s a little nonsensical for an elf to be telling a man that he owes his allegiance to some travel-stained stick-at-naught wanderer. And what was Boromir's problem when last he and Aragorn met in the shadow of Narsil? Here I too side with Boromir, as what does Aragorn have going for him except an elvish girlfriend and a good torch-throwing arm?

Gandalf echoes the words that he’d put in Aragorn’s mouth. We cannot use it because, um, it’s EVIL. You’ll lose all of your hair like that Gollum guy…but wasn’t there another Hobbit who used it time and again with seemingly little affect?

Elrond jumps in. We know what his suggestion would be, as he’s been singing the same song for nigh 3000 years now. Is there a reason that the elves cannot take the Ring and destroy it? Those of us reader know why, but did PJ make it clear why Elrond couldn’t do something besides point the way?

Gimli decides to act and pays for his haste. Nice way to visually and quickly show the Ring’s invincibility to the usual ways of unmaking such a thing.

Frodo is hurt somehow by Gimli’s attack, and so are we to believe that he is already linked to the Ring somehow?

Elrond explains the task at hand, and Boromir adds to our knowledge of Mordor. I love Sean Bean’s delivery of this information. He tells of the Black Gate, and you can see on his face that he has seen it and walked in its shadow. Legolas interjects, and I assume that he’s delusional, attacking Boromir for being a realist. Gimli in turn goes for the pointy-eared one. Hello! Boromir splashes yet more cold water on the Council, and suddenly it’s a free-for-all.

PJ uses well the reflections in the Ring to show that it is sowing the seeds of discord, that evil has enter Imladris, and what the fate of all will be if the Ring is recaptured. How much better this than the words of Saruman. Even Gandalf enters the fray, and has words with Boromir.

All will burn.

Frodo steps up and takes responsibility for the Ring’s demise. Gandalf’s heart breaks at Frodo’s words, hearing what he knew must be. The sight of this smallest person, taking on such a large burden and impossible task, ends the debate. Frodo accepts the quest, but in a way also asks for help. Gandalf joins him, and I’m glad of that. Aragorn utters the words that we could have heard in Bree, yet they are welcome here too. He pledges his sword to the task. The wink/nod between Elrond and Gandalf to me was unnecessary and lightens the scene. Let there be something solemn, PJ!

Legolas pledges his bow, and naturally we also get Gimli’s axe (assumedly not the one that he used on the Ring). Boromir’s pledge to me was the best, as he was against the destruction of the Ring, yet bows to the will of the Council and decides to help. Anyway. I see no duplicity, no “I’ll hang around for my chance to grab the Ring.” This honorable man accepts his duty, live or die. To me Boromir is much more heroic than Aragorn here.

Sam jumps in, just like in the book, and this actually makes Elrond happy. But that’s not enough mirth from moreMoreMORE Jackson. Next we have Merry and Pippin join in to add some slapstick. From Boromir to Pippin, the scene just slides down into Sillyland. We just couldn’t have that ‘hero’ moment last for more than a few seconds without spending a minute with Pip. Ugh.

As Elrond looks over these nine (why Nine, by the by?), Howard Shore’s score pumps up the blood with the hero theme.

The picture with the Nine Walkers (Standers here) creeps me out. Legolas especially. Though PJ got much of the size-scenes right, he lost me with this one. It almost looks photoshopped. And again, Legolas’s head seems to be on a fake body. And just why does everyone line up like a school class picture? Couldn’t they have surrounded Frodo, laying hand on him or something?

Cheese not just for the photographers.

Elrond is almost gushing as the scene wanes. Why so happy? Sending the Ring out into the Wild, and you’re not concerned when moments before you acted like the entire world was against Rivendell? Is it that you got your way and got Frodo to continue on with the Ring? Getting rid of Pip and the other ravenous hobbits might be the explanation for your smile, or is it that as soon as the Fellowship leaves your door you and the other elves plan to cut and run west? What a diversion, and the roads westward will be free of Sauron’s minions.

“Goodbye, Middle Earth, and thanks for all the fish.”

Pip closes out the first DVD. Naturally.

Note that I did not find the MTV Council of Elrond Easter Egg to be funny. This could be due to (1) I’m old and crabby or (2) it’s just not funny. I concede point #1.

The start of DVD EE #2 shows that at least some time has past. It’s darker now, and it appears that our fellowship is preparing for their perilous journey. We get to see Legolas traipse by, as who else would have a bow?

Next Aragorn cleans moss and leaves from his mother’s gravestone, she who gave Middle Earth hope. An oddly familiar stature, and I wonder what others see here.

We learn why Aragorn lives at Rivendell, as he is hunted by the Enemy. He denies yet again the Kingship (thrice perhaps?), and Elrond attempts to talk him into accepting his role in life. “I’m the happy Elrond now, and so why don’t you just forget all of that stuff that I said about Isildur and go off and be King already?” What a messed up guy Aragorn must be. Losing his parents, raised by pointy-eared foster father with a grudge, dating his foster parent’s daughter, one minute being told that Isildur is the lowest of the low, then suddenly asked why he does not follow the footsteps of his great ancestor?

I’m surprised that PJ didn’t make it more of a soap opera than it already is. Thankfully we move on.

PJ notes that Bilbo's Rivendell accommodations are actually a room built within a real world park. He stated that he wanted to capture a real indoor/outdoor feel for Rivendell. Bilbo's room, though elven, still has a warm earthy brown feel that surely appeals to the old hobbit. PJ also remarks on Bilbo's aged condition, and he states that without the Ring, Bilbo's aging process has "accelerated."

Gollum must live in Beverly 'botox' Hills. Still, he lost his hair...or not .

Bilbo unwraps Sting and gives it to Frodo. Glad to see that at least one hobbit blade will be as in the books. Frodo examines the spider bane, as do we, and it truly is a work of art, both in the story and as a prop in the movie. Bilbo gives more than just gifts to his nephew when he when the blade glows blue (unlike Glamdring ), it's time to jam.

The mithril coat comes next. Who better than Bilbo to sell a mithril coat, as he can unhyperbolically compare it to dragon's scales. As Frodo makes to add the shirt to his person, that Ring appears and yet again effects the hearts of those present, as it did in the Council.

Ian Holm plays the addict viewing an out-of-reach fix very well. Before he even reaches for Frodo, Frodo senses that something's amiss and removes the Ring from plain sight. Odd that, that he would deny his beloved Uncle a peek, but as the Ring will briefly show Bilbo to be a monster, we now see the effect of the Ring already on Frodo. It's mine!

A puppet is used for the change from Bilbo to the bad hobbit, and I thought that the effect was well done. Not sure if the whole world jumped at the scene, as the Directors speculate, but maybe we can comment on that too. Frodo sees a monster for his Uncle, and though the words of Elrond may have fallen flat, I now am convinced that this Ring must be destroyed if it causes such behavior between these two characters.

Strife between Gandalf and Bilbo, and now even between Bilbo and Frodo. The Ring, like many addictions, destroys the bearer's relationships to all but itself. You're mine!

Bilbo immediately recovers his senses, begins to cry and apologizes to Frodo - like Boromir will in turn do sometime soon. The old tired hobbit turns his back, not on Frodo perhaps, but on his claim to the Ring.

Frodo, recovering his senses too, closes the gap between he and his Uncle. There's that hand on the shoulder that we continually see. Though one might expect these two to face and hug, PJ has them (rightly so) stay as they are, as the Ring has placed them. They can still touch, still hold hands, yet the Ring will permit nothing more, and so Bilbo must turn his face from dear Frodo. Sometimes there is no going back.

It's goodbye for now, dear Bilbo.

But where are the rest of the nine, these Nine Walkers perhaps? Are they ready to go? When will they leave the calm of Rivendell for the Misty Mountains, and that which lies beyond?
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:48 AM   #2
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Again this is another sequence I have mixed feelings about.

The Council of Elrond I thought was well cut down by Jackson. I'm not saying all that back-story, the dwarves tale, Legolas' tale of Gollum, Gandalf catching everyone up on Saruman, wasn't important in the books, but in the movie what this Council was called for was to discuss what the heck was to do with the Ring. So, Jackson cuts right to chase and eliminates the backstory, and for the film, I see this as perfectly logical and actually a good thing to do. We saw what happened between Gandalf and Saruman already, and there's not point in going into the other back stories. So, for the actual information we are given, this part of the Council was done well.

Some other good points is the archetypes that are created here, the whole archetypal "journey to discovery" are established here early at the Council. We see that Dwarves and Elves aren't on the best terms, and Gimli's little squabble with Legolas. We see the confrontation between Boromir and Aragorn..."Gondor has no King. Gondor needs no King." And finally, Aragorn's reluctancy in claiming the throne of Gondor. As Legolas goes on about him being the heir, I took Aragorn's "Sit down" as in he's hesitating on his decision and as of right now does not want to be the King. As the Fellowship progresses this "journey to discovery" starts taking place, as all these fellows relationships and feelings begin to change.

I get mixed feelings because (especially in TTT EE) it just seems like Elrond sends out a mass middle-earth telegram to everyone saying "Hey the Ring's in Rivendell, come and join in the discussion." I don't like this representation of what the Council was, and what the Council should have been. I think it should have been dealt in the same fashion, all these races have met together by chance just when the Ring arrived to Rivendell. It just seems to me that Elrond sent out telegrams to everyone to come and talk about the Ring.

The other thing is it's just a minor little quibble, and really doesn't effect how good, or bad the movie is, but I would have appreciated this scene a lot better. Ok, we have all these random people here, that play no further part in the movie, we have no idea where in the heck they are from, we don't even know who they are. What's their purpose? Seat fillers? It doesn't make sense to me. Also, of ALL the dwarves that Jackson threw into the Council, not one of them was credited as Gloin. This is minor, and doesn't get me fuming, but as a book-reader, it would have really made me appreciate this scene a lot better, seeing that Gloin is put into the Council (as he should have been) and not a bunch of random dwarves.

Just some other notes. I couldn't have put it out better myself alatar, as far as the scene between Bilbo and Frodo. Ian Holm does this perfectly, the tone of his voice and the way he speaks is just perfect for this part "I...sho-uld very much like...to hold it again...(quieter) one last time." As far as I know there's no "lunge" or "achhh" by Bilbo in the books, I think Frodo just says he "sees something in Bilbo's face," however I thought this was a nice little thing to tweek. Perhaps Bilbo is like the Gollum of the rest of the movies? Even though if he's lost the ring (well in Bilbo's case he willingly gave it up) he still desires it and that desire for the Ring will never be over until the Ring is destroyed.
Quote:
But why, as Strider is in self-imposed exile, there are no other Rangers as far as we know, and no one protects the Shire.
While we have no knowledge of this (as movie-goers), prior knowledge from reading the books, and the Dunedain protecting the Shire...I think in the movies we do catch a hint that Gondor isn't the only one holding off Mordor...when Boromir says "...kept the forces of Mordor at bay. By the blood of our people, our your lands kept safe." Aragorn kind of squirms in his chair and rolls his eyes. I took this as a hint that Gondor isn't the only one, but that was because I had former knowledge of the Dunedain before watching the movie, I don't know if non-book readers would have caught this hint.

I do agree in that Sean Bean's performance (as well as I think Ian Mckellan again) was great in this scene. Bean definitely delivers a powerful performance when he gets up and starts talking. I just love the way he delivers his lines, especially when we get to Lothlorien, but I'll save that for another discussion.

Quote:
Anyway. I see no duplicity, no “I’ll hang around for my chance to grab the Ring.” This honorable man accepts his duty, live or die. To me Boromir is much more heroic than Aragorn here.
I thought that too, until I saw TTT EE. I think TTT EE did a lot of good for what TTT regular version...messed up...but when we get to TTT EE, I think the little "talk" between Boromir and his dad contradicts and ruins Boromir's purpose for joining the Fellowship.

Also, one last thing is we see the heroism of Frodo yet again, and this is maybe one of the last times we see it. (Excluding when he decides to leave at the end of the movie). FOTR I thought did a good job of portraying Frodo's strength and heroism, when we progress it just seems like he's weak, can't do anything for himself, and Sam does everything for him. But, everyone starts bickering, arguing, tensions and angry words are rising, over what to do with the Ring and Frodo steps up to take it upon himself..."I will take it." The first time he says it, he seems intimidated. It's quiet, he's the only Hobbit amongst all these bigger, stronger people, then his voice rises above all the rest, and he strongly says..."I will take it." I love the queiting down, and Frodo whispering..."though I do not know the way." And then we get the Fellowship made. Anyway, I like Elijah Wood's and Frodo's portrayal in this part. What I find funny is that when all the arguing is going on, Elrond is just sitting in his chair having another migraine attack. I just kind of chuckle, it's his own Council and he's lost total control of it.
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:51 AM   #3
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Several brief comments

I liked the Council of Elrond overall, (especially the
MTV easter egg ) but it was irritating that
PJ and friends didn't put in the obvious (book)
quote by Elrond: "And I will put the nine walkers against
the nine riders." (exact quote may be off). He could even
have said "nazgul riders" (or horsemen) to make the
allusion obvious to nonbook viewers.

I believe Barliman says "He's one of them rangers",
indicating that even in PJ's movie there are rangers
ranging somewhere around Eriador.

And Sean Bean does make a sympathetic Boromir.
And exactly why is Leggy, and not Elrond,
correcting Boromir? (Oh, yeah, more screen time
for the blond elf).

It was an excellent touch putting in Gandalf giving
his Black Speech bit. As for Gloin, I just assumed he was
the dwarf next to Gimli. And let's be thankful
that Gimli wasn't tossed away from the Ring when he
tried to destroy it.
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Old 12-16-2005, 10:15 AM   #4
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The Council of Elrond was good at accomplishing its purpose, telling us what had to happen to the ring. It can be presumed that the others in attendance, knew of the ring and were brought up to speed prior to our arriving on this scene. If I remember correctly though the theatrical release made less sense. They didn't have Gandalf standing up speaking the black toungue and they cut out some of Boromir. So it seemed, if I remember, more like:

Elrond: Okay we have Isildur's bane
Boromir: Let's keep it and use it
Elrond/Gandalf/Aragorn: NO we can't
Gimli: Well I'll break it
Everybody: Who will take it and let's argue now.

Boromir was greatly added to in the EE and I greatly appreciate this. It helps to showcase Sean Bean and I apprecaite his acting in this scene. It's great to see the seed of lust and doubt already begin to sprout in his mind. After it was just spoken that we cannot use the ring and the issue should be final he again hits the point and doesn't give up on wanting it. We're already getting the idea that Boromir will fall in the end.

As for Aragorn renouncing his claim on the Kingdom, I ask again why? I just see no need for this departure from the book. It weakens Aragorn as a character and he seems overly riddles with holes of self-doubt. Now when he has to lead the company sans Gandalf I can see and agree with his self-doubt but at this stage and on this issue I disagree wholly. Aragorn always prepared for the day when he would take up the Kingship. I would rather see a confident, yet humble Aragorn which PJ and company did not portray well at all.

Ian Holmes gets an A+ for his acting here, especially after our little "Bilbo Monster" attempts to grab the ring and he feels so bad about what burden has been laid on Frodo. I feel his sincerity and sorrow for this. A rather well done role and perfectly casted, unlike Elrond who was cast horribly.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:15 PM   #5
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The moment Bilbo reaches for the ring certainly made me jump a couple of times.
I really like it when the red book of Westmarch is shown but then I love books in general.
I like the council the way it is, if it had been longer I think it would have weakened the movie. For me one of the strongest part is when the people begin to fight and it is reflected in the ring. Essentially this is what it is all about. All of them, even Sauron himself are tied to ring. Actually the Title of Lord of the Rings translated in Dutch is "In the Ban van de ring" which literally translated means "Under the influence of the ring" and I find this really fits the book since each character is affected by it.
At first I didn't like Merry and Pippin bursting into the council but I have gotten used to it and I just can't help smiling every time I hear Pippin say, "Where are we going?"
As for Elrond looking somewhat happier, its because he is thinking, "finally I got rid of this ring and I can go back to the west and leave those stupid humans behind."
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:18 PM   #6
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Wait, no! He's smiling because he's thinking, "You're going to get there to Mount Doom with him, Gandalf, and he's going to refuse to throw the Ring in. Then you'll sympathize with me."

Alatar, thanks for heading this up and starting these threads. I actually laughed out loud when I read your bits in this sequence and the previous one about Elrond and his story. I think it's good to start these threads with a light heart.

Boromir . . . what can I say? He's awesome. Of course, the knowledge from TTT EE that he's a secret agent sort of puts a damper on things, but he's still awesome. Sean Bean is spectacular in that role.

As an actor, Hugo Weaving is everything I've ever imagined Elrond to be. Obviously the script leaves a little to be desired. Physical appearance, voice, both awesome. Of course, I'm coming from the seemingly unique position of never having watched any of the Matrix movies, so I don't think "Agent Elrond" every time I see him.

I think the Council is good overall; it's cut down, but still gets the gist in there. PJ doesn't have an hour to spend educating moviegoers on the finer points of Ringlore, and he wouldn't even if he did. The most important thing about it is that Frodo's choice is left intact. This is one of the most powerful moments of the trilogy, even if Merry and Pippin do milk it for laughs.

Oh, and I love the brief look Legolas gives after Gimli says, "And my axe."

In Ian Holm's last real scene, he's awesome as usual. He totally captures the essence of Bilbo. Is it me, or is his rubber mask, and the shot of it, intentionally reminiscent of Gollum? It reminds me of the first Gollum scene from TTT, the shot where he puffs his cheeks while reaching for the Ring. Maybe someone could come up with a side-to-side comparison of those two shots?
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:34 PM   #7
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More people see Boromir as a "secret agent" than did I, and I wonder if this is due to my having more sympathy and understanding for this 'flesh and bones' Boromir than the one portrayed in the books.

I realize that in TTT Boromir is given a mission by Denethor, but I don't see Denethor's influence at the Council (thought that maybe it's some of those other humans that are hanging around). Surely Boromir is tempted by the Ring - wasn't Gandalf? - but this is something inside of him, not from his father. We will see that later. I think that with all that Boromir has seen recently - elves, Narsil, the heir of Isildur - that he's a bit snow blind. He reached out and handled Narsil, and my feeling is that he just wanted to get the Ring's measure also. He joins the Council, not for the dark whispering or cold council of the Steward's, but because this is an honorable man who knows better than even Aragorn that there's a job to do.

Maybe I'm just naive, or compensating for years of "Boro-bashing."
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:17 AM   #8
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Yeah, you know, alatar, when I look back on it, I do sympathize with Boromir. Especially because the scene in TTT EE gives the distinct impression that he doesn't want the Ring, that his father's forcing him to go. I guess "secret agent" isn't the best phrase for it. You can't look into his face at the Council and say, "Yep, this guy's just trying to get the Ring so he can take it back to Daddy."

I'm not sure about him being more heroic than Aragorn at this point, though. I mean, it's not like Aragorn's some naive little boy who doesn't know what it's going to take to get to Mount Doom. The dude was walking in the shadows of Ephel Duath before Boromir was born. In fact, I would almost say that movie 'Gorn is nobler than book 'Gorn in this scene, because book 'Gorn is on his way to Minas Tirith, while as far as movie 'Gorn knows, he's going to Mount Doom.
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Old 12-20-2005, 06:36 PM   #9
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My opinion of Boromir never dampened after TTT EE because you could clearly see his reluctance in going to Rivendell. I actually began liking Boromir more as a character in the movie then I had when I read the book. In his speech about Gondor you can see he really cares about his country.
I actually haven't seen the whole first matrix movie but it was enough to see Elrond as "Agent Elrond"
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Old 12-21-2005, 03:29 AM   #10
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I'm not sure why everyone keeps mentioning Elrond as the guy from the Matrix. Yes, I've seen the movies, but that's what happens to movie stars. they make other films!

I don't see Christopher Lee as Dracula, Ian McKellen as Richard III, Elijah Woods as the kid from Impact, Sean Bean as Sharpe, nor Ian Holm as Frodo!!!
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:08 AM   #11
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Conversely Essex, I see Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn in any other movie I see him in. What happens is you see somebody play a role and for whatever reason they get stuck in you head as that character and not an actor. That is what has happened here, I believe.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mormegil
Conversely Essex, I see Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn in any other movie I see him in. What happens is you see somebody play a role and for whatever reason they get stuck in you head as that character and not an actor. That is what has happened here, I believe.
I understand this, but why only Elrond? I haven't seen another character mentioned in this way before (until you mentioned Viggo conversly.....)

Anyway onto my thoughts on this sequence.

The one thing that stands out for me is how Boromir knew that Aragorn was Isildur's Heir by his name? Or have I missed something in the EE before denethor sent him off? (haven't been able to view the EE bits at the mo)

The look on gandalf's face is priceless when Frodo accepts the Quest. I see it as a kind of relief that frodo has taken up the quest rather than anyone else...... I wonder how other people read his emotions.......

Jackson cleverly knicks a line from Bag End for Gandalf and a line from the prancing pony for Aragorn when they pledge their help to Frodo.

I have no problem with the fellowship being formed straight away and not staying the month or so they stayed behind. It's a movie and we have to keep things moving I suppose.

Bilbo's Gifts scene was superbly done. Oh hang on, it's because it's pretty exactly the same as the book!!!!! Now there's a clue on how to make the perfect LOTR film!

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Old 12-21-2005, 12:17 PM   #13
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The Eye

Quote:
Bilbo's Gifts scene was superbly done. Oh hang on, it's because it's pretty exactly the same as the book!!!!! Now there's a clue on how to make the perfect LOTR film!
Curiously, in the past some have expressed dislike for
this scene. I really liked it, including Bilbo going
hyper. It's an example of PJ using (filmography?)
to recreate the book scene, and unlike a certain
over-the-top scene later featuring Galadriel.
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Old 12-22-2005, 01:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Essex
I understand this, but why only Elrond? I haven't seen another character mentioned in this way before (until you mentioned Viggo conversly.....)
I guess the reason that I hear Agent Elrond is that much is made of Hugo Weaving's voice in both films. It's distinctive. Viggo speaks less, and so is more visual and I now see him, like others, in older films like G.I. Jane.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:28 AM   #15
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Just a little thing that caught my eye having watched FotR for the umpteenth time:

Quote:
Next Aragorn cleans moss and leaves from his mother’s gravestone, she who gave Middle Earth hope. An oddly familiar stature, and I wonder what others see here.
Why does Aragorn have to clean his mother's gravestone? Is there no elf in the whole of Rivendell to do it while Aragorn is away most of the year? Or were all Dunedain since Aranarth buried in Rivendell and so, even while spending all their time on cleaning graves, the elves simply couldn't keep up with this task?

It's a very nice scene, I know, but again it's one that makes little sense once you think about it.

(or maybe I just overrate the elves' cleanliness. They desperately lack brooms in Lorien)
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:12 PM   #16
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Why does Aragorn have to clean his mother's gravestone? Is there no elf in the whole of Rivendell to do it while Aragorn is away most of the year? Or were all Dunedain since Aranarth buried in Rivendell and so, even while spending all their time on cleaning graves, the elves simply couldn't keep up with this task?
I can think of a few reasons why Aragorn has to clean his mother's grave marker. One, it's his responsibility. Why would some elf want to touch the marker for a dead human? Maybe it would be considered disrespectful, and Aragorn wouldn't date their most eligible bachelorette - and just where would that leave the elven race? Also, as the elves are into nature, maybe they see the moss as decorative and tsk tsk Aragorn for cleaning the stone. Elrond's house has leaves and trees and all throughout, so what's a little bryophyte among kin?

Lastly, Elrond has decided to leave Middle Earth, and so will not expend one extra copper or any effort in upkeep for the Last Homely House. He's taking what he can, selling off the rest and hoping to leave before Isildur's kin (did he ever tell what Isildur did that one day, 3000 years ago?) - Men - show up and take possession, gas-powered leaf blowers, mowers and chainsaws in hand.
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Old 09-12-2006, 01:15 PM   #17
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While we get to see the marker for Gilraen's passing, where is the similar stone for Arathorn II, Aragorn's father? Was his body lost when he was shot in the eye by orcs, and so there was nothing to bury? Or did PJ want to show us something by having Aragorn at his mother's grave marker that couldn't have been done with both or just his father's gravestone?

Was Gilraen, though shown only as a white stone, to be opposite Aragorn's stepfather, Elrond? We then can see both his human and elvish heritage, and the pros and cons of each side.

Just a thought.
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:34 PM   #18
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This is purely speculation, but I think there's something about just showing the grave of his mother. Don't ask me to explain, but I think it's very possibly more effective than having Arathorn's grave alongside it.

Of course, for me as a book fan, the scene reminds me of that one memorable line from her, that Elrond and Aragorn repeat in ROTK: "I gave Hope to the Dunedain; I kept none for myself."
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Old 11-20-2006, 01:02 AM   #19
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1420! "And my axe." "The one you just broke?" "Yes... no... leave me alone!"

Interesting that we seem to have a consensus of approval for PJs considerably shortened Council of Elrond. While I thoroughly enjoyed the lengthy tales in the book, I am also willing to admit that the movie version works well, and that a longer version would drag on.

It was a novel decision to have an outdoor setting for the council. None of us, myself included, have complained about the setting and the décor. Either it just seems to somehow fit, or questions of surroundings are not nearly as important as the characterisations and plot details which we receive in this pivotal scene.

There were, however, a few things that didn't sit quite right with me in this scene:

Thing the First: Smartypantses

How did Legolas know about Aragorn and his ancestry? Is this realistic, given that he was (although a prince) from Mirkwood? I guess one could argue that he had been in Rivendell before, and possibly been introduced to Aragorn as such. But it just seemed strange that Legolas should be the one to rebuke Boromir. Someone else mentioned that perhaps Elrond should have been given that honour?

And how did Boromir know the name of Aragorn? Or know about the rangers, for that matter? Anyone?

Thing the Second: Minor Linguistic Quibbles

For my first little quibble, Elrond says that they have but one choice: to send the Ring to Mount Doom to unmake it. That's actually no choice i.e. zero degrees of freedom. They have to send the Ring to the Fire, so they have no choice, not one.

Second little quibble over use of the word "whence". Elrond says "from whence it came", but the "from" is already implied by the word "whence", so he only needed to say "whence it came", without the word "from". Wow, talk about a minor quibble doug*!

Thing the Third: Argumentss Preciousss

It seems to me that, once the Council degenerated into bickering, all were arguing that they should be the ones to take the Ring. In the book, it seems more or less the opposite: there is a brooding silence, as none of them are willing to put their hand up for this seemingly impossible task. That's what makes Frodo's acceptance of the burden so heroic. In the context of the movie council, Frodo's claim to the quest should have been seen as just another voice in a clamour of voices. Frankly, I'm surprised anyone heard him with all that uncivilised arguing.

Although, I can understand why PJ showed the council degenerating so. He wanted to show that the Ring was causing division among people who should be allies; the lust for It was inflaming old wounds and rivalries. This was nicely shown in the reflection on the Ring (by clever special effects wizardry?); the will of Sauron was being done, and you could almost hear the preciouss little thing laughing. Sinister...

Thing the Fourth: Cheesiness

I straight up disliked the group photo shot of the fellowship. Way too corny. The members could just have easily have pledged their commitment to Frodo from where they were sitting, or standing. We get to see a great shot of the fellowship, member by member, as they climb a pass in the next sequence, so I see no real need for the group shot here.

Also, Elrond's line "you shall be the fellowship of the Ring" was a little cheesy and unnecessary. Book fans without the benefit of such a line were able to work out for themselves that this was the fellowship.


Council aside now, the scene with Bilbo and Frodo in Bilbo's room was very well done. Sting is absolutely gorgeous. The mithril shirt is a little too pretty, perhaps, but quite a difficult item to design, and I think they did a good job. I liked Bilbo's transformation into Ring-hungry fiend. I'm surprised that there is not a vocal group of fans who did not like it; there certainly is such a group with voices raised against the transformation of Galadriel. To me, the two are sides of the same coin.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:35 PM   #20
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I liked the fellowship being in the group about ready to leave and I love Pippin's sillyness. He's just like a little kid.
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