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Old 01-11-2006, 09:41 PM   #1
alatar
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LotR1-FotR-Seq12

The secret of your beauty
And the mystery of your soul
I've been searching for in everyone I meet
And the times I've been mistaken
It's impossible to say
And the grass is growing
Underneath our feet. - The Moody Blues


The Eight run towards the Golden Wood, though only two I presume know what this blossom holds. Anything would be better than the Black Pit, or to be found on the ground with the orcs on the hunt (which, being Morian orcs, luckily enough don’t come out to play in the sunlight). As the troop enters the forest, the background music isn’t the only thing hinting at otherworldliness. Those leaves that fall slowly by make it seem that some time barrier is being crossed. The imagery is colorized to be sure, as indicated in the Appendices, but it still is great to see. It’s like each frame of the scene is “enhanced” and all colors are new and fresh.

Gimli starts expanding our knowledge of the White Witch of Lorien, and that’s starts out okay, but then we have to have the buffoonery that beings here and seemingly never ends. But before I complain more, I’d like to say that the scene is very detailed, and you see the care by which John Rhys-Davies’ costume was assembled. And remember, most of R-D’s acting is through his eyes, as he wears many uncomfortable prosthetics.

Frodo begins to hear a whispered voice in his head, but as it’s Cate Blanchett, I kind of envy him as the voice in my head is myron cope – I’d trade any day.

Anyway, Galadriel continually creeps Frodo out with pop-flashes of her eyes and stating that he is carrying great evil into Lothlorien.

Foxy Gimli nearly walks into an arrowhead, and, okay, maybe he wasn’t paying attention. One cliché in movies that I’ve always found annoying is the ‘limited view’ Gotcha! Most people, even when looking straight ahead, still catch movement in the periphery out about 90 degrees (from the nose). So when something just ‘jumps out’ at actors in a movie, it’s not very realistic, as, unless the jumper is well-hidden, you’d see them coming.

Now I’m just sure someone will harp on this, but before you do, let me explain: Assume that these elves are so well hidden that they can catch a bloviating dwarf off his guard. Was this due to the fact that these are Galadhrim on their home turf? A dwarf is that unaware? But what about when Arwen snags Aragorn? AD&D rules have Rangers being surprised 1 in 6 (and if THAT’s not the last word…). And I assume that the elves did not drop from trees nor are capable of superspeed or teleportation. So my question is, in PJ’s Middle Earth, why are the elves so lousy at fighting, as seen in TTT?

We’ll table (or take off the table, for my cousins) this discussion, but just wanted to point it out.

Haldir notes that Gimli breathes loudly, and the arrogance is perfect – so is the quote. We’re next up on a flet, some time later that evening, and the sparing between Haldir and Gimli is good. Gimli is not a clown, yet we assume he says something uncomplimentary. Aragorn, as will be seen later, acts as the referee – our little Ranger is growing up and becoming a leader! Take pictures.

Haldir channels Galadriel for a moment, and we’re getting so redundant that I wonder if next Frodo will be made to walk to Caras Galadhon blindfolded with a sign, hanging from his neck, that reads, “I bring great evil.” This additional scene helped the bareboned theatrical version, but to waste it on repetitious dialogue? I can almost hear PJ saying, “We wanted to make sure that the audience didn’t forget about the evil of the Ring, and you know repetition works well in commercials…”

After Haldir pronounces judgment, he gets the joy of some words from Aragorn, and the conversation that I ‘hear’ is so silly that I’ll spare you. Almost.

“…And I’ve been traveling for days with four midgets, a dwarf, one of your buddies and some guy who hates me, and I need to get away for a while. If I hear, ‘Are we there yet?’ one more time… Come on, dude, have a heart and let me in. Here, here’s five coppers.”

The FotR await their doom, no one happy about their current predicament. Boromir, who again I like more than you-know-who, consoles Frodo over Gandalf’s death. His betrayal later is even darker as here the two sit in the trees of Lothlorien and he seeks to help his brother Frodo. You just have to like this character, as played by Sean Bean, and PJ has made me appreciate Boromir more than I did when reading the books. Sure, he’s a warrior and not in the class of his brother or Aragorn, but he’s a common man who understands simple common things. There’s no air about him – ya, he may boast and brag – but he’s one of us, not some king on a throne or some distant elf-dating one-note.

After a change of mind (and three gold pieces and a pair of Rivendell-made earplugs ), Haldir leads the eight to Caras Galadhon. Like the walls of Moria, I wasn’t really impressed – it’s just a clump of trees.

As they enter the city you hear the otherworldliness in the chanting voices. It’s definitely not Rivendell, but that wasn’t totally elven, as is this place. PJ may have had a time putting this chapter to film, as how do you film Eden? It’s like portraying a 3D world in 2D – some things just don’t translate. Still…Not that I hated Lothlorien – the EE version is much better than the theatrical – but I got the feeling that we’re going to meet aliens, as in Spielberg.

We meet the Lord and Lady of Light. Does Frodo see them this way, or does everyone? Merry’s face may have answered that question. Cate Blanchett was a good choice for the Queen of the Golden Wood. She’s beautiful - not young, like Arwen appears, though not old. And her voice is deep and just so…I don’t know. Authoritative?

And there’s that guy she’s standing by, whoever he is… Celeborn, like Elrond, starts rattling off, and he seems a bit mechanical. Whatever – I’m still looking at Galadriel. Did you notice the sparkle in her eyes? It’s noted somewhere that when they filmed Cate, they used a light-thing with a bunch of little white lights attached, unlike when filming any of the other characters. You’ll see, if you look, white sparkles in her eyes, whereas in the other characters you may see only one sparkle. Once someone points it out to you, you can’t but help look for it.

But back to Celeborn. Was that the first question on the theater-goer’s mind? Did the Eight reach Lothlorien in complete secrecy? Whoa - I just can't wait for the answer...

Legolas states that the creature that Gandalf faced down was a 'Balrog of Morgoth'. Cool that.

And like in the book Galadriel probes each of the eight with her eyes. In Gimli I see reflected love; in Boromir fear. The Queen tells them about hope, about the quest hanging in the balance, then starts to send them off for some R&R. As she does this, she has a few special words for Frodo, and we end with a shot of her eyes, which in this shot are not attractive. Back on the ground, we see Legolas doing that elven 'catwalk' walk, and as the scene started, his twin did the same on one of the tree bridges. Didn't like that, as to me the elves aren't being portrayed as otherworldly, but shallow and two dimensional - CG - or something. At least Haldir appeared to be living and breathing.

As the elven choirs sing Gandalf to his rest, Gimli relaxes and Aragorn oddly enough sharpens his sword. That's out of place, as here there is peace and no need to prep for war. And why wouldn't he hand it off to some elf geek that for the last thousand years or so studied sword sharpening? Sam gets his two cents in about Gandalf's fireworks, and that's a little gem.

Why does Aragorn slug Gimli? To this day I haven't been able to figure out why, though surely it makes sense to others.

And now we have Aragorn counseling Boromir on taking some rest. Mr. Swordsharpener, the psychiatrist, is in the office.

Boromir's reveals his heart, and it is touching. This is not some evil man, waiting in the wings for a chance moment to seize the Ring. Here is a soul that stands on an edge, a precipice, and is not sure which way leads back home. Boromir seems to be torn; does he sacrifice his father and the realm of Gondor or reach for the Ring, sacrificing his honor and heart and all the ideals for which he has lived. PJ makes Boromir so much more sympathetic, as does Sean Bean. Reading about his passion is one thing, seeing Boromir struggle in the land between good and evil is another.

There go I.

Aragorn is neither as passionate nor compassionate as the Steward's firstborn. And you see Boromir reaching out to his brother, his liege - not King yet, but that too will come. Show me where dishonor or evil lies in this character? Though he is ailing, sick with the ring’s bite, he still reaches for his brother Aragorn. And think about it - a few minutes ago he was dissing Lord Aragorn in Rivendell. Just goes to show ya what a well-thrown sword can do for a relationship.

Elf feet leave prints in the grass.

Galadriel, walking like a typical elf, shimmers by. Assumedly Frodo is called, and so he follows her. How PJ resisted having Frodo kick the sleeping Pippin is beyond me - oh wait, we’ll save that kind of humor for TTT. Anyway, Frodo catches up with the daughter of Finarfin as she reaches her magic birdbath.

Just for a moment, and pretty silly, but what if the mirror were a hot tub?

Galadriel fills the silver basin with water after asking Frodo if he'd like a looksy. Here she seems a bit alien and scary, like she has the goods on you and is just playing you out a bit for her own fun. After a moment of doubt the mirror begins to show clips from the movies. There's Legolas, signifying what I have no clue. Sam and Pip give a look like they're awaiting Frodo. Then we're back in the Shire - under new management - and someone must have left her curling iron plugged in while out dancing at the Green Dragon. We see hobbits in chains, and Sam is whipped. They are being led to the mill. Grist or gristers, I'm not sure, but it's not good.

But why is Sam there, as if the Ring were recovered, surely Sam wouldn't make it back to the Shire? And if this is a variation of the past, well, short of a wormhole opening up, who cares? But I guess the message is that life could get bad for the hobbits, and we needed to see a hobbit that we know in chains and pain. Except for Pip, who might have elicited cheers.

And now that Eye's back, and it's sucking the chained Ring right out of Frodo's shirt. Frodo seizes the Ring and falls back/is flung back from the mirror. Galadriel states that she also saw the Eye, and Frodo is terrified of the Eye, or more likely Galadriel. And after she lets on that the fate of Middle Earth is on his shoulders, you might think that Frodo is starting to like that Eye thing better than his elvish friends (first Elrond and now Galadriel).

Galadriel drops a clue in, "He will try to take the Ring!" Again, as mentioned in a previous thread, is anyone NOT sure to whom she refers? And though Cate continues that the Ring will destroy the members of the Fellowship, I have my doubts and have stated them on this thread. No one else even seems interested in the Ring. And here, in the movie, if Pip hasn't made a play for the Ring, no one will.

Finally, Frodo turns the table on Galadriel and offers her the One Ring.

And Galadriel's voice is no longer perfect. Cate adds a verbal shudder as the Queen is tempted. And then she drinks a cup of testosterone and goes She-Hulk. Wow! Well done, and though the evil Galadriel is still attractive (“all will love her…”), her eyes show the demon inside (“and will despair”). Then poof! The vision passes, as does her temptation, and she returns to the elf maid that she once was...well, close enough. She states that she passed the test, remains herself and will fade away.

Frodo is still freaked out. Wise gentle soul Gandalf doesn't want the Ring, Frodo is chased by Farmer Maggot's dogs, black horsemen pursue him, he has a really bad time in Bree, he's stabbed, then has to endure the verbal bludgeoning of Elrond, has to take the Ring again, Frodo is almost frozen, is almost eaten by a garden squid, is stalked by his uncle's nemesis, is attacked by orcs and speared by none other than a cave troll, gets chased by a First Age fire demon, is interrogated by elves then shown by these same new friends that the Shire will be utterly destroyed if Frodo makes any missteps, and when he tries to get off of this train of pain and place the Ring in more competent hands (wasn't that why Galadriel warned him about Boromir, to lower the Ring's selling price?), the elf Queen becomes a scary witch-demon-being.

I'd have stayed in my Bag End bed.

Note that Frodo would have had more success giving Galadriel the Ring if he were to have bent down on one knee and stated that he'd invested "two month's salary" in their relationship. At least that's the way it works in commercials...

But, as stated above, Frodo's feeling a little helpless, and here I can sympathize. Note that he's not whining, just saying that he can't do this alone - but you get the sense that at least he will not stop trying. And that's the difference between hero Frodo and the whining childish Frodo Baggage.

Galadriel shows her Ring to Frodo, and tells him that possession of a Ring makes one alone. Who was that guy she stood near before? Whatever. Then she tells Frodo that it IS all up to him, that if he can't do it, there's no other that can. Frodo should be able to believe this from what he's seen of ME's high and mighty, as they all go to pieces when there’s work to be done. More hero Frodo is demonstrated. He's afraid, but has a duty - a job to do. That's not the Frodo that we saw previously on the way up to Caradhras, or Weathertop, or at the Gate pool. Frodo doubts, but Galadriel reassures him with a line that I don't remember if it's in the books or not. Again, as some other poster noted, Frodo's hand clasps the Ring.

I will do this deed.

We're back to Orthanc for some orc biology. Saruman talks up his creation, stating that HIS orcs are better than that other guy's orcs. The elvish stock information is a bit confusing, and this to0 was discussed elsewhere. If elves do not come from mud, then why do orcs? Saruman doesn't provide much information, but I don't hear anything stating that the Dark Powers created a new race, but perverted one already in existence. You can breed a really mean dog, but you still need to get the puppies in the usual way. Why did PJ want these orcs to be mud-born? Does it make their deaths more palatable to the audience, especially in light of Gandalf's words of wisdom in Moria?

Anyway, we get to see what happens when you give Uruks a can of paint and no brushes. "You were supposed to whitewash the walls, you idiots!" The smaller orcs prepare their larger brothers for war. One appendix states that the Uruk armor was to be somewhat light, for speed, and protective of the front of the creatures only, as they would not retreat and would always face their enemies. Saruman sends his small army off with some rousing words, and some special instructions for Lurtz. “Bring me some hobbits, unspoiled, and a side of fries and a large Pepsi.” They run off in search of the Eight Walkers. And as they have farther to travel, it actually makes sense, in the movie, that they leave their HQ before the Fellowship leaves the Golden Wood.

Back at the Naith, the Fellowship receive gifts from their elven hosts. All eight get the stylish and functional cloaks – which thankfully get used at least once. There’s the very cute joke about lembas, and I actually laughed at the hobbits’ chutzpah.

As the troop prepares to travel down the Anduin, they and we get an update on the present situation. Orcs to the left, orcs to the rights, some coming up from behind and more fun down river. Luckily, with most of ME’s dark forces arrayed against him, Aragorn gets an official “I visited Lothlorien” commemorative blade that will tip the scales back in his favor.

Finally, after enough words, the Fellowship casts off and starts their journey downriver in three small but exceptional canoes. Legolas remembers his gift, a new Galadhrim bow. Just the perfect present for our deadshot orc assassin. Much - and maybe to much – will be made of his newfound toy. Merry and Pippin get daggers – used, but maybe we’re to assume something there – and we know that Merry’s will play a big part later in RotK. And hopefully Pip finds not only his courage but a clue as well. Sam receives some hithlain rope, then shows poor manners by asking another boon. Was Sam cute in asking for a dagger? He’s a farm boy, not a warrior, and so it didn’t work well for me.

The scene between Gimli and Galadriel is excellent. Why PJ demotes Gimli to a clown’s role later is beyond me, as here is the serious thoughtful side of Gimli that I enjoy. We have to wait a moment to find the end of that beauty and beast tale.

Aragorn already received his gift in Arwen, and so no green glass for him. Grammy Galadriel (did I get that right?) has some words for her future grandson-in-law. Aragorn wishes that Arwen left ME, as, being a guy, knows that that plays well with the family. We’ll note that later we never see Aragorn leading Arwen off to the Havens at the start of the Fourth Age. But anyway, Galadriel lets Aragorn know that he will either become King or crash and burn – not that that’s too prophetic, as Aragorn can only wed Arwen if he is King, and so what other options are there?

Frodo gets the starglass. As this was omitted from the theatrical version, PJ bet heavily that most people would see the extended movie versions. Otherwise, parts of TTT and RotK make no sense.

Oops! I meant to say even more parts of TTT make no sense.

Frodo gets a kiss and a direct quote from the text. And I like that now, in this scene, that Galadriel is more ‘human’ and not alien. She’s still beautiful and all that, but more in our world.

And finally, we get to hear of the love between two very alien creatures – Galadriel and Gimli. PJ nailed this perfectly, and I only wish that, now and again, Gimli (and even the other characters) could have a moment of serious reflection and expression of something more that just hack-attack-action. When John Rhys-Davies says, “She gave me three.” I could just cheer. This scene is worth the price of the extended DVD version as we get to see Gimli as more than just a short rough axe man, but also his amazement at/pondering of Galadriel’s excessive gift, his feelings and a warming between he and Legolas, who for once isn’t announcing that evil approaches or is shooting something with arrows.

Truly a gem.

But the river moves on, out of the Gore and down south. The Fellowship’s road is clear before them, to follow where the river leads.

At least for now.
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Old 01-12-2006, 11:32 AM   #2
Tuor of Gondolin
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An excellent, and entertaining, post here.
I agree that PJ botched the development
of Gimli. Overall, I thought there was a decline
in the quality and accuracy of the films, as
you have alluded to. I didn't like hyperGaladriel
reacting to the Ring temptation. I would have
preferred a more understated version
(although, paradoxically, I really
liked hyperBilbo wanting the Ring in
Rivendell). In general I find some
of PJ's declared necessary book departures
to be in error and leading more to slapstick.

One big plus for movie FOTR for me is
Boromir, much more likeable and sympathetic
then the book one, although I find very
questionable his even hinting at agreeing to
Aragorn's claims before running the claims past daddy.

One flaw of the films is PJ's making many
characters caracatures (can you say "Denethor"?)
and, of course, beginning here, Gimli.

I did like the way the extended dvd expanded
Celeborn's role and the inclusion of the flet scene.

I thought Galadriel's farewell to the Fellowship, music
and filming was a highlight of the films, although I
wonder if noncatholics/Christians were put off
by a possible reading in of a religious allusion
to Mary here (the pose and costuming, for example,
is quite close to statues of her).
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:44 PM   #3
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I wrote an essay analyzing The Mirror od Galadriel for extra credit in my english class last year. (We were studying films and this essay was th e only high point in an otherwise insuffrable class where the teacher compared me to the devil, but that's another story.) Since I think it might be of interest to you, I'll just repost it. Please bear in mind that this essay way written to be read by a teacher who knew very little about LotR, so some things that are obvious to all of us here I had to explain in the essay. All the things in italics are film terms I had to include in the essay. Also, advance apologies for any bad writing quality, as this was originally writtien in the wee hours of the morning.




Beautiful and Terrible as the Dawn



“Instead of a dark lord you will have a queen. Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair”
− Galadriel, The Fellowship of the Ring


These words are one of the pivotal points in the scene entitled The Mirror of Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, directed by Peter Jackson. They are uttered by Galadriel, played by Cate Blanchett, as she falls under the spell of the One Ring. In this scene, Galadriel, Queen of the Elves, invites Frodo Baggins, a Hobbit and bearer of the One Ring, played by Elijah Wood, to look into her mirror. As he looks into it, he sees his friends turning away from him and the destruction and tyranny that will befall his beloved Shire if his quest to destroy the Ring should fail. Finally, the Eye of Sauron appears. The Ring, which hangs on a chain around Frodo’s neck, slips out from under his shirt and towards the surface of the water that forms the mirror. Frodo falls back on to the ground. Galadriel then begins to speak to him about what he saw. He offers her the Ring, and she is greatly tempted by it. She is transformed and tells Frodo what she will do if she has the Ring, but then she resists the temptation, returning to her former self. She tells Frodo that she too is a Ringbearer, showing him Nenya, the ring of water, which she possesses. The transitions and editing, sound, and camera movement and angles in The Mirror of Galadriel all contribute to the mise-en-scene of the scene.

The transitions and editing in The Mirror of Galadriel contribute to the mise-en-scene of the scene. The use of mostly match cuts helps make the fluid feel of this scene. The shots all follow each other in chronological order, with few cuts that leave out time in between shots, making this a scene almost completely in “real time.” Many optical devices are used with the images Frodo sees in Galadriel’s mirror. The images dissolve from one to another, and they seem to waver, with ripples on the surface of the water. When Galadriel is tempted by the Ring and tells Frodo what she will do with it, a series of jump cuts go between the changed Galadriel, the Ring lying in Frodo’s palm, and Frodo’s face. In the beginning of the scene, the shots are relatively long, but as the scene progresses, the rhythm gradually changes. The shots become shorter and shorter, thereby building tension, until Galadriel is tempted by the Ring. After this, the rhythm slows down again as the shots become longer, releasing the built-up tension.

The sound in The Mirror of Galadriel contributes to the mise-en-scene of the scene. There are many diegetic sounds in the scene, both external and internal. The sound of the waterfall when Frodo and Galadriel arrive at the glade where the mirror is located can be heard by both the characters and the audience, creating a tranquil mood. The sounds of a light breeze and nighttime animals can also be heard. As the scene progresses, these background sounds fade away, and the dialog and Galadriel’s pouring of water into the mirror become the only external diegetic sounds until Galadriel undergoes her transformation at the hands of the Ring. At this point, the light breeze becomes a much stronger wind, which can now be heard, and thunder rumbles. After Galadriel returns to her normal self, the trickle of the waterfall can again be heard, although much more quietly than before. Frodo experiences many of the internal diegetic sounds in the scene. When he looks into the Mirror of Galadriel, he hears sounds accompanying the scenes he sees, such as wind blowing in the grass of the Shire, the snarl of an Orc, or the voice of Sauron. He also hears the loud metallic “clank” of the Ring on its chain as he falls back from the mirror. In addition, the mirror itself makes noises itself when it shifts from view to view. There are also many nondiegetic sounds in The Mirror of Galadriel. Music is the most noticeable of these. At the beginning of the scene, there is no music, but as the scene progresses it turns to the soft vocal and stringed instrumental more typical of Lothlorien, Galadriel’s realm. As time goes on, the music crescendos slightly. When Frodo looks into the mirror, the music becomes strictly instrumental, turning into the brass-filled theme key to Mordor just before the Eye of Sauron appears. After a brief pause when Frodo falls backwards, music returns, still instrumental but louder, and gradually builds in volume and tempo, until Galadriel is transformed, when it becomes much louder and transitions to mostly brass, with tympani and gong added. The music diminishes again as she returns to her normal self and the scene draws to a close.

The camera movement and angle in The Mirror of Galadriel contributes to the mise-en-scene of the scene. During this scene, the camera mostly follows the movement of the character the shot is focused on. There are very few shots in which the camera is still and its subject is moving. Most of the camera movement is done rather slowly, generally using a boom. The camera moves at the same speed and in the same direction as its subject. Pans are also fairly common when the subject is moving in one direction on a level plane, as is the use of a dolly or track. Very few zooms are used in keeping with the feel that the camera is moving with the subject. The only exception is when Frodo is looking into the Mirror of Galadriel, where the camera neither moves from left to right nor up and down, but only zooming in and out in small increments, giving the impression that the audience is looking through a window of sorts. Most of the shots in this scene are at or close to eye level, although there are some exceptions. Galadriel is generally shown at a very slightly lower angle than Frodo, who is shot at a slightly higher angle. This illustrates how much more powerful Galadriel is as Queen of the Elves than Frodo, a lowly Hobbit who is far from home and uncertain of his path. This difference is accentuated when Galadriel is transformed by her desire for the Ring. She is shot at a very low angle, which makes her appear even taller than her normal six feet, seven inches and very menacing. When she returns to her normal self, she is shown at her normal angle: slightly lower than eye level. By contrast, during this period, Frodo is show at a high angle, which makes him seem even more vulnerable than usual.

In summary, the transitions and editing, sound, and camera movement and angles in The Mirror of Galadriel all contribute to the mise-en-scene of The Mirror of Galadriel from The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, directed by Peter Jackson. They truly make the viewer believe that Galadriel is “beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, [and] stronger than the foundations of the Earth.”




After watching The Mirror of Galadriel the 15 or so times I had to to write that essay, I couldn't watch it again for months. I was just so sick of it!
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:18 PM   #4
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I will repeat what I said in an earlier thread: Lothlorien is the worst part of the three movies. I'm open to argument. That being said, it's not really that bad; the extended edition really makes a huge improvement, and obviously, the final scene, featuring an intense Celeborn, a belly-aching Pippin, and a refreshingly serious look at Gimli, is very well done.

I just don't like the look and feel of Lothlorien. It seems to be far more mysterious and dark than it is beautiful. I do agree with what alatar said about the difficulties of capturing this on film, and maybe the filmmakers went this route on purpose so they wouldn't have to perform the impossible. The music, too -- it's great music, but to me it just doesn't fit the spirit of the book. I guess eerie is the word I'm looking for -- eerie Lorien, eerie music, and a really eerie Galadriel.

The part that doomed this entire sequence for me was the flashing eyes and "Welcome, Frodo of the Shire, one who has seen the Eye!", which was way too spooky for me. I mean, c'mon, Galadriel's undoubtedly the most powerful Elf in Middle-earth, but I don't think she's like this.

Cate Blanchett, of course, is a marvelous actress, extremely well-casted. It's not her fault, even if she did only sign up for the pointy ears.

As we already pointed out on a previous thread, PJ, the master of subtleties, has Galadriel tell Frodo that Boromir will take the Ring. Brilliant work, that. Way to keep up our suspense, Pete. I mean, it does heighten the suspense in one way by letting us in on what's going to happen without telling us HOW it'll happen, but considering that Boromir's struggle with the Ring gets so much screen time, I just don't think it's smart to tell us, "Yep, he loses."

Ah well, this sequence will lead us into the final scenes into the film, which I hold to be a masterpiece of filmmaking. Down Anduin we go, to Amon Hen and Parth Galen, and the doom that awaits us there!
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Old 01-15-2006, 05:02 PM   #5
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Frodo gets the starglass. As this was omitted from the theatrical version, PJ bet heavily that most people would see the extended movie versions. Otherwise, parts of TTT and RotK make no sense.

Oops! I meant to say even more parts of TTT make no sense.
Just to point out quickly, we DO see this in the standard version - yes, it's been ages since I watched the original, but I remember this from it - it's the only part of the scene giving we see in the thatrical release.
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Old 01-15-2006, 09:50 PM   #6
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Boromir, who again I like more than you-know-who, consoles Frodo over Gandalf’s death. His betrayal later is even darker as here the two sit in the trees of Lothlorien and he seeks to help his brother Frodo. You just have to like this character, as played by Sean Bean, and PJ has made me appreciate Boromir more than I did when reading the books. Sure, he’s a warrior and not in the class of his brother or Aragorn, but he’s a common man who understands simple common things. There’s no air about him – ya, he may boast and brag – but he’s one of us, not some king on a throne or some distant elf-dating one-note.
I hope I don't go too far off as I talk about Sean Bean, not just as his performance in LOTR, but as an actor. This is the exact role that Sean Bean is known for. Though he's done other roles, and has done them well, like the Romantic type in his upcoming movie Silent Hill, or your simple good guy, when I think of Sean Bean I think of his as the typical human. He plays the typical human in a lot of his roles, even when he is the "villain" of the movie. Which makes him perfect as Boromir and as to why I think he makes such a great and convincing Boromir.

I'm just going to go off into some of his former movies where Sean Bean plays the villain.

The Island (Merrick): Bean plays the man who created this alternative world, and who is the scientist behind the cloning. But as this movie sets it up, Merrick isn't some evil-mad scientist, but a scientist that thinks what he's doing is benefitting society, and is benefitting life. What he's doing is making the world better, but in all reality he's blinded by his own research.

Patriot Games (Sean Miller): Bean is of course the terrorist after Harrison Ford in the movie. But again, he's not that typical villain, because as we find out Ford had killed Bean's brother. So, Bean just takes his anger down that wrong path of revenge.

Golden Eye (Travelyn): The nemesis of James Bond in this movie. Again, we can sympathise with Travelyn as in his mind Bond left him for dead and betrayed him.

National Treasure (Ian Howe): Here is the clear-cut villain, however his motives are "humanized." First being the friend and helper of Nicolas Cage, but then gets caught up with Greed and the desire for wealth.

Sorry if that's off track, but just showing that Sean Bean is known for these "humanized roles" and why I think we as people can connect with him and makes him especially good for Boromir. He's not necessary this evil-villain, but even in the movies where he does play the villain, his motives are human and understandable. As humans we give into things like Greed, revenge, hate...etc and Bean excels at these roles.

One of the most beautiful lines I think are said in thise part, the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn in Lothlorien. First, the pain that Boromir is suffering as Gondor is failing and he's struggling to find hope for it. But some of the most splendid lines are said:
Quote:
Have you ever seen it Aragorn? The White Tower of Ecthelion, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver. It's banners caught high in the morning breeze. Have you ever been called home by the clearing of the silver trumpets?
Though in the books no one says these lines, this is basically word for word of the description we get when Gandalf and Pippin see the Tower of Ecthelion:
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Then Pippin cried aloud, for the Tower of Ecthelion, standing high within the topmost wall, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, tall and fair and shapely, and its pinnacle glittered as if it were wrought of crystals; and white banners broke out and fluttered from the battlements in the morning breeze, and high and far he heard a clear ringing as of silver trumpets.~Minas Tirith
Wonderful insight done by Jackson and putting the description of the Tower we get from the books into the movies.

I do agree with the statement that as the movies progress Gimli's character goes down hill. However, I will say in FOTR I was quite pleased with Gimli's character. There are some instances (here in Lothlorien) and later where he is used for comic relief, but I don't find it bad. I actually find it funny and ment for exactly what it's for, to be funny. His comic relief in FOTR didn't take away from what a dwarf is, or who the dwarves are. But in TTT, we start venturing into undwarvish like characteristics and further downhill in ROTK where the comic relief just isn't funny and is rather annoying hearing Gimli crack a joke or others laugh at him everytime we see him.

As far as Galadriel's gifts are concerned:
Quote:
Just to point out quickly, we DO see this in the standard version - yes, it's been ages since I watched the original, but I remember this from it - it's the only part of the scene giving we see in the thatrical release.
Just to back up Essex, yes Frodo receiving the Phial is in the regular version, it's the other gifts that are in the extended. Something I've always found funny though, and a question that occasionally pops up is why didn't Boromir get a gift? Is this a slip-up by Jackson or didn't he just really care? Perhaps we're meant to think Boromir ends up taking the Ring because Galadriel didn't give him a gift and he feels left out? I just don't understand why there's not a scene where Boromir receives a gold belt. If you're going to add the scenes where the Fellowship all get gifts, why leave out one of them?
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Old 01-16-2006, 10:42 AM   #7
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Sorry, forgot about the phial being in the regular version - thanks for the correction, Essex.

I will agree with Boromir88 regarding Gimli. Think that in FotR we have a balanced dwarf, both comic at times and yet thoughtful and reflective. Same might be said of Legolas, as he doesn't have his bow out all of the time, and when listening to Gimli speak of Galadriel's boon, he just simply and warmly smiles. Sometimes I get the feeling that, like other makers of a second movie, PJ sat in the theater with the audience and noted when they reacted. "Hmm...they liked when Gimli cracked a joke, and they oohed and aahed the deadly Legolas. Will have to include moreMoreMORE of that in TTT."

Crazily enough, PJ's depiction of Boromir is the best of all of the characters, and he's in only half of the first movie. Aragorn is a little too standoffish, and even his scenes with Arwen don't really make me feel like he's a real guy. Frodo started off well enough, but then after he starts whining I just can't feel for him anymore. Sam's okay, but the other hobbits aren't really that interesting. Gandalf is great, that is, except when PJ makes him the boogeyman, but we left him in Moria.

I'm going to say that Boromir is the best character in FotR. PJ exceeds the book with this character, as again as I stated previously, I can identify with him and really feel the weight on his shoulders - do the right thing, or do what my father has asked?

And in regards to Lothlorien, I too found it to be a little too black. Stars at night are pretty, and so if that was what PJ was trying to capture, then he missed it here. Understandably, how do you show the audience Frodo's experience when he touches the bark of the tree? Think that PJ could have used some scenery hints from Ridley Scott's Legend (sans Tom Cruise, of course ).
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Old 01-16-2006, 09:47 PM   #8
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This is getting a bit off topic, I realize, but I would agree with alatar that Boromir is VERY well portrayed in FOTR, and his one scene in TTT is the icing on the cake. When you say best character, I'm assuming you mean best overall (duh, why wouldn't you mean that?), in which case I'll probably have to agree with you.

As for "best portrayed from the book character," again Boromir gets very high marks. The only other character who might take that title is Ian Holm's Bilbo, which I thought was astonishingly good. Like Boromir, phenomenally acted, well written, and faithful to the book. Of course, Bilbo doesn't get a prolonged death scene.

Gandalf could've won it if not for his waffling about the whole "which way do we go" thing. But, I would say that those three performances (Bean, Holm, McKellen) may be the three best in the film. Would anyone else care to agree or disagree?
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Old 01-17-2006, 12:45 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by alatar
It’s noted somewhere that when they filmed Cate, they used a light-thing with a bunch of little white lights attached, unlike when filming any of the other characters. You’ll see, if you look, white sparkles in her eyes, whereas in the other characters you may see only one sparkle. Once someone points it out to you, you can’t but help look for it.
I have a desktop background with a great example of this effect. It's very beautiful, but more than a little creepy.
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:32 AM   #10
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Gandalf could've won it if not for his waffling about the whole "which way do we go" thing. But, I would say that those three performances (Bean, Holm, McKellen) may be the three best in the film. Would anyone else care to agree or disagree?
Gandalf the Grey, yes. I rather wish he had gotten a
supporting oscar for FOTR. But Gandalf the White,
nyet ! He was just a bully, and way out
of book character.
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Old 01-17-2006, 04:27 PM   #11
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But, I would say that those three performances (Bean, Holm, McKellen) may be the three best in the film. Would anyone else care to agree or disagree?
I won't disagree but there was so many stellar performances in the movies. So, if I had to slim it down I would also add in Chris Lee (who I think does a wonderful Saruman, especially when we see him in ROTK EE and his "Voice") as well as Sean Astin, especially in ROTK. Even John Noble, though Denethor was totally off in the movies, Noble just does wonderful at playing that character you just want to punch in the face and were so happy when he finally died. But, I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Old 01-17-2006, 06:10 PM   #12
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Tuor in Gondolin, that's what I was referring to, Gandalf the Grey. Certainly not the White. I agree with you 100% on that.

Boromir 88, I was just saying those were the three best for this particular film. And I'm not at all trying to denigrate the contributions of the other actors. I would say this is perhaps the best ensemble cast ever. Every one of them is a phenomenal actor or actress. Really, what it boils down to is which actors got the best material to work with. I'd probably give it to Serkis and Otto for TTT, and Wood and Astin for ROTK.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:27 PM   #13
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The one thing I don't like of this sequence is when Galadriel goes all crazy. I thought that was way over the top. (Now the people, who don't remember her name, think of her as the crazy lady!) I thought this could have been done with more subtelty.
I also didn't agree with Lothlorien in the theatre cut. It was way to dark for me and the EE edition realy made me happy since it showed more light.
I liked the "Lembas commercial" that Legolas gave to the Hobbits since Lembas is never explained and it is a key part to how Frodo and Sam survive on their journey to Mordor.

I think Aragorn nudged Gimli because Gimli was snoring and it was disrepectful for Sam who was just saying his poem and trying to do his best.

Notice that as Boromir talks about Minas Tirith we hear the Minas Tirith theme in the background.
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:17 AM   #14
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Elves are dangerous as well as beautiful. They are not all light and 'goodness' - an example is the Kin slaying. To me they are just as imperfect as Men. They can be petulant, angry, dangerous, 'slopey shouldered' and tempted just as Men are.

Therefore, I don't see Lothlorien as a light and wonderful place. I admit I only had this view after reading the Silmarillion and realising what the Elves really were like. LOTR doesn't give this impression too much.

I'm wondering whether the scriptwriters' took the Silmarillion in mind when creating the Elves and their habitats.

PS regarding the 'temptation scene' - how would have you guys (who disagree with jackson's potrayal) have handled it? How would you have her standing there uttering
Quote:
You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!
I think the clues in the amount of exclamation marks Tolkien uses here. She's SHOUTING!

And then the light and the 'terrible' looking Galadriel. From Tolkien:
Quote:
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.
I can see why Jackson went the way he did. It's a great cinematic moment, perfectly showing Galadriel's power and temptation. And then to finish
Quote:
Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. 'I pass the test,' she said. `I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'
And this is just PERFECT from Kate Blanchet. One of the best delivered lines in the whole movie. The way she quakes, shivers and then composes herself before resigning herself to her Fate. Marvelous.
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:12 AM   #15
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I'm with you on this one, Essex, regarding Cate and the temptation.

Lothlorien, however, was just too dark - not meaning evil - but just dark. Even in starlight elves and their homes should appear magical - otherworldly - and to me PJ just made it look like some part of Moria with better-lit stairways. Again I think that showing Lothlorien would be a real chore, and so no slight to PJ, but I just didn't like the scenery.

No "Wow!"
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:56 PM   #16
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Lorien was one of my favorite parts of LOTR. And that does make me a bit more ciritcal of the scene in the movie. That being said, I understand with what PJ said in the commentaries about how he wanted to display in Lorien the more dark and dangerous side of elves, as opposed to what was shown at Rivendell. But the subtely was lost in the effort. With the exception of the EE scene of Caras Galadhon, and then at the depature, it was always night time there, ugh.

Blanchet did well. I felt as though she really understood the character, but...

Quote:
Quote:
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.

I can see why Jackson went the way he did. It's a great cinematic moment, perfectly showing Galadriel's power and temptation
With all the magical special effects and CG in these movies, I was most disappointed in that scene. It looked way to cheesy for me. Almost circa 1978 technology, with that negative image look to her. If you refer to that quote in the book, well then for me:
tall - mabye
beautiful - NO
terrible - YES
worshipful - NO
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:23 AM   #17
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After listening to the "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm" chapter this morning, it struck me regarding why I don't like this Aragorn.

In the books, Aragorn is the pupil of Gandalf. During the FotR's journey from Rivendell to Moria it is Aragorn and Gandalf that take council together, and even when they would disagree it is amicable. Aragorn is concerned, not by the dark road through the Black Pit, but for Gandalf's well-being. And this is what struck me: When leaving his mentor behind in Moria, Aragorn salutes his fallen companion with Anduril before turning towards Lothlorien.

PJ's depiction of Aragorn doesn't demonstrate a relationship with Gandalf. We don't have two intertwined fates, just two parallel lives. Aragorn wants to get rid of the failed human race - Ring stigma (and win Liv, of course ), and Gandalf wants to help the hobbits and the other free folk by ridding ME of the Ring and subsequently Sauron. There is no connection between the two, and they are companions by chance and need.

There's no wizard's letter at Bree mentioning Aragorn, nor does the Grey Pilgrim state that he has traveled with Aragorn before, like when they searched for Gollum. PJ's Aragorn, then, cares not so much for Gandalf, and when the eight arrive outside the gates of Moria, he is simply ready to journey forth. Boromir, on the other hand, is shown to be more sympathetic, if not towards the wizard, with whom he had openly argued, then to his followers, like the hobbits (sword training, "give them a moment" outside Moria, and telling Frodo not to carry the death of Gandalf too).

This Aragorn may not try to claim the Ring, but other than that, what does he have over Boromir?
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:34 AM   #18
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Aragorn v Boromir

aragorn does not have Bormoir's:

Petulance - in thinking he is always correct and disagreeing whole heartedly with members
of the fellowship - e.g. everyone at the Council / Aragorn on the river Anduin

Childishness - e.g. acting like a child in Lothlorien as he has his view of Galadriel and will stick to it!

Condescending tone - e.g. rubbing frodo's head like a child when giving the ring back

Blinkered view - e.g. a warrior's point of view - For Gondor! for Gondor! For Gondor!

Level of temptation - e.g. Boromir's failed attempt to wrestle the Ring from Frodo

and so on and so forth.

I agree about the point of Aragorn's relationship with Gandalf not being focused on. Bring
on my 52 hour mini series to allow us to see this relationship!
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Old 01-23-2006, 11:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
This Aragorn may not try to claim the Ring, but other than that, what does he have over Boromir?
A total lack of charisma.

Of course, this is propably not a PJ choice only. Sean Bean just beats Viggo by 100% with stage presence, being believeable and real...

The problem with Aragorn in the movies may also be due to the inwardness of the screenplayed character. Aragorn seems merely to wrestle with himself and with his relationship with Arwen (even this too, is more about his solitary fight, not something where Arwen actively takes part- and that of course is going back to Tolkien and the weak role of women in the story), not with the real characters he is being in dealings with.
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Old 01-23-2006, 12:19 PM   #20
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this may be due to the fact that Bean has 'better material' to play with in LOTR

1- temptation by the Ring - in the Council and especially on the mountain when he holds the ring.

2- a Death Scene - EVERY ACTOR WORTH HIS SALT CRIES OUT FOR A DECENT DEEATH SCENE!!!!!!!

Now for Viggo, his acting in LOTR is basically done through his 'emotion' - ie

1/ after gandalf falls - his shocked look as the arrows fly around him
2/ his view of lothlorien and the joy it holds for him
3/ the marvellous view as he walks towards the multitude of orcs after letting Frodo go

but to add to this - his acting in Bree, especially

1/ when he drags in frodo to his room - I know what hunts you!
2/ when he describes the nazgul and Sauron the Deceiver to the hobbits
is excellent.

I'm only dragged out of middle-earth occasionally by these 2 when their accents fail -

for aragorn - funnily enough at bree when he mentions Sauron the deceiver above - his voice drifts back to a mid atlantic accent

but boromir wins hands down as he cavorts back to his Sheffield accent when on Caradhras - we should take the road to my CITEH! (instead of city!!!)
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Old 01-23-2006, 12:46 PM   #21
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And that's another point: Aragorn, as we will see in the next sequence, salutes the orcs (I will have a note regarding how he says this word, and how it is received on boths sides of the Atlantic) before he starts slaughtering them. He salutes the shards of Anduril, nods at Boromir after spearing the orc with a thrown sword, salutes the Nazgul (I think), nods to Galadriel, etc.

But no nod or salute for the Balrog-bane! Do these two even know each other?

Hope that you see my point.

And Essex (and others), why do you suppose that Aragorn is portrayed thus? I not going to concede 'material' yet. Was Boromir's part enhanced as his was the shortest for the trilogy? Is Sean Bean just 'better' at getting what he wants out of the script/script writers? Or did PJ want to make Boromir a more sympathetic Judas-goat whereas Viggo's one note is to be 'from rags to riches'?
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Old 01-23-2006, 01:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
And Essex (and others), why do you suppose that Aragorn is portrayed thus? I not going to concede 'material' yet. Was Boromir's part enhanced as his was the shortest for the trilogy? Is Sean Bean just 'better' at getting what he wants out of the script/script writers? Or did PJ want to make Boromir a more sympathetic Judas-goat whereas Viggo's one note is to be 'from rags to riches'?
I would firstly vote for Seans' superior presence, but would readily admit, that Mr. Bean had a better-built role with better chances of being credible. So, who knows?

Surely Boromir has been symphatized, a little bit at least. Although I'm not sure, which one has the more sympathetic look on him, Tolkien or Jackson. But a big difference comes with Aragorn - as has been eloquently argued on this discussion. I would just continue with my less eloquent babbling about Aragorns' inwardness in the movie. His real battles are inside him, so what the actor can actually do to express this, is mainly to stare half-focused to somewhere and look serious - shedding an occasional tear every once in a while. Not so much great drama, but succesful idols-posturing? Shouldn't blame Viggo, though. He did his best, I suppose. A Great Actor might have some other options, at least with a help of A Great Director, of course, but...
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:53 AM   #23
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alatar, I don't really see it as far as Aragorn and Gandalf acting like they don't know each other. I think their relationship is deep; we just don't really see it in this film. Later, in TTT and ROTK, they'll have heart-to-heart conversations that Gandalf could not have with anyone else, except maybe Frodo.

I still think Aragorn's more heroic than Boromir in this film. He's kind of like me, though, introverted and often unsure of himself. He's actually more heroic than in the book. Book Aragorn becomes a member of the Company because he's going to Minas Tirith to become king, and his path happens to cross with Frodo's. Movie 'Gorn apparently has no such ambition, and so when he goes with Frodo, he truly means to go to Mordor, and give up his life if need be. This is surely more heroic than Boromir, who just wants to go home, and if possible, take the Ring with him.

I agree that Bean gets far better material than Mortensen in this film, but I would say that Viggo can match him line for line in their one-on-one scenes that we'll be looking at in our final FOTR sequence. The Anduin campsite and the death scene at Amon Hen, make me stand in awe at both of those guys.
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Old 01-24-2006, 03:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
This is surely more heroic than Boromir, who just wants to go home, and if possible, take the Ring with him.
Well, I will say I agree with everything you've said except that. (But it's ok to disagree right ?)

You have to take into account why Boromir's going back to Minas Tirith. It's not that he's simply going home because he misses daddy and doesn't want to have anything to do with The Fellowship anymore, but he's going home because it's his duty. Boromir is given several "titles," one of which is Captain-General (Commander-in-Chief would be a term similar to it today). He's the "Commander-in-chief" of Gondor's forces, the one that leads them. He's going back to Minas Tirith because it's his duty to defend his country and lead the army, not just simply like..."Ok guys I don't feel like going any further with you, I'm going home."

So, to me, that makes him honorable in that, he has other duties that he has to do.

I'm reminded of the thread Why Does Aragorn Let Frodo Go? Sure Aragorn would have been a help, but his task was different from Frodo's. Frodo's was to destroy the Ring and the Fellowship was around to help him for as much or as long as they could. Aragorn didn't go with Frodo (this of course being from the movie), because he had duties elsewhere, the more urgent one being making sure Merry and Pippin were safe and doing the best he could to save them.

So, it's just not the case that "Boromir isn't honorable because he wants to go home." But the reasons why he wants to go home, which was his plan even before The Fellowship was made. It's his own duty that drives him home, the way it was Aragorn's duty to "let Frodo go."

If I am totally off base with the discussion, I apologize.
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Old 01-24-2006, 04:48 PM   #25
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One thing I would like to mention is that Boromir's character is more rounded then Aragorn's in FOTR because he has only one movie to do so. Aragorn however, has two more movies in which his character can develop.
I am fien with the way Aragorn was portrayed in FOTR. I especially liked the way he was introduced, that was just a little piece of genius.
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Old 01-24-2006, 05:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
He's the "Commander-in-chief" of Gondor's forces, the one that leads them. He's going back to Minas Tirith because it's his duty to defend his country and lead the army, not just simply like..."Ok guys I don't feel like going any further with you, I'm going home."
So why did he leave Gondor's defences for a couple of hundred days cos he had a Dream about 'some bint with a Scimitar' (whoops, wrong film) - I mean a dream about a Broken Sword? His brother said he'd go to Imladris, but Oh No, our Commander in Chief reckons it's much more imoprtant to travel a few hundred leagues (and get lost in the process!!!!) than to protect his City........

And then his poor brother gets it in the neck for his stupidity in trying to take the Ring.

Some people may be aware that I'm not a Boromir Fan..........
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Old 01-24-2006, 05:28 PM   #27
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Well, Essex, in the movies he leaves home because Daddy orders him to go get the Ring.

Boromir88, I'm not saying that Boromir is not honorable or heroic. I'm just saying I think Aragorn is more so.

It's interesting because Aragorn is going to almost switch roles in TTT. He'll go to being the more heroic guy while Theoden sits, stews, and tries to kill Wormtongue.
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Old 01-24-2006, 05:47 PM   #28
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Essex, I will be more than glad to continue the debate in PM (or even in a new thread?) if you wish, but I think the discussion will veer too far off track from the purpose of these Sequence-by-sequence threads. As one, we are getting away from the actual movie, and two getting ahead of ourselves and not even on the right sequence anymore. Which again, was probably my fault.

Quote:
Boromir88, I'm not saying that Boromir is not honorable or heroic. I'm just saying I think Aragorn is more so.
My mistake, I misread what you intended...it seemed that you simply said Boromir wanted to go home and therefor Aragorn was the more honorable. I just wanted to point out that we have to look at the reasons as to why he wanted to go home.

Ummm, so ya, how about Lorien?
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:09 PM   #29
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Ok, I'm posting again because I forgot something (about Boromir of course) that I didn't mention before.

It's here in Lorien where he opens up to Aragorn and I think accepts him as his King. I know on his deathbed he calls Aragorn his King, but really it's here that he opens up to Aragorn and realizes Aragorn is just like him.

It's interesting to see this change in Boromir because of course when we first meet him he vehemently declares "Gondor has no King. Gondor needs no King." So, he's basically telling Aragorn we don't need you, buzz off. But, in Lorien (and he reiterates this same thing with his dying words) he accepts Aragorn as his brother, his countrymen. It's in his own words...

Quote:
"My father is a noble man, but his rule is failing and our people lose faith. He looks to me to make things right, I would do it, I would see the glory of Gondor restored...One day our paths will lead us there and the tower guard shall take up the call. The Lords of Gondor have returned."
What gets me wondering is what causes this change in Boromir. He goes from "Aragorn we don't need you" to calling Aragorn a lord, and even later accepting that he is subsequent to Aragorn and Aragorn is "his king." Is it at this point does he realize that he alone can't save Gondor and that they really do need Aragorn? Does he come to realize that his father is failing and his people are losing hope and that afterall Gondor does need a King, they need Aragorn? What causes him to realize this? Is it something that Galadriel showed him? Ahhh, so many questions running through my mind.
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Old 01-25-2006, 03:40 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
What gets me wondering is what causes this change in Boromir. He goes from "Aragorn we don't need you" to calling Aragorn a lord, and even later accepting that he is subsequent to Aragorn and Aragorn is "his king."
This scene jarrs with me for some reason. I can't really put my finger on it, and don't know why it is though. Perhaps because of the change of heart from boromir, and I can't see a reason for it.

I think Jackson puts it in here though to set us up for his fall. Making him a more sympathetic character, and also giving a path towards him accepting Aragorn as his King and Captain when he dies.

Yet another proof towards how TIGHT and well conceived the PLOT Tolkien's LOTR is. Make one small change (my captain / my king) and you set dominoes falling (this time backwards in time) and so have to set up the situation beforehand.

I can see VERY few plot holes in Tolkien's written work, but many in Jackson's. This is basically because he changed some plot lines, sometimes VERY small, but they have larger consequences further on.
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Old 01-25-2006, 07:23 AM   #31
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I'm reminded of the thread Why Does Aragorn Let Frodo Go? Sure Aragorn would have been a help, but his task was different from Frodo's. Frodo's was to destroy the Ring and the Fellowship was around to help him for as much or as long as they could. Aragorn didn't go with Frodo (this of course being from the movie), because he had duties elsewhere, the more urgent one being making sure Merry and Pippin
Good point. This is one book/movie difference of importance. And
as noted above, there are other differences, usually to the
movies disadvantage, an exception is PJ's depiction of Boromir,
except- to me- of the absurd Boromir virtual acknowledgment
of Aragorn as king, which he would never have done (not only
as the Steward's son and presumptive heir but also in his role
as chief military lieutenant under Denethor- even under
bizzarly dorky movie Denethor) without the
agreement of the Steward.
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:05 AM   #32
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By the by, no problem with the Aragorn/Boromir discussion in this thread, as I may have been the one who started it in the first place. Let's just try to draw from the sequence at hand or those preceding for examples when making a point - except when I just can't help myself and jump ahead a movie or two .

Anyway, just wanted to point out that in this sequence, Boromir does not acknowledge Aragorn's kingship, which he does just before his death in Sequence 13. How he decides that Aragorn would be a "Lord of Gondor," I don't really get, and so can only speculate. Up to this time in the movie, the only thing that Aragorn has done on the plus side was to save Boromir's life in Moria. Yes, Aragorn leads them all into Lothlorien, but to me that's not enough to change Boromir's mind regarding this Ranger. Could it be that Boromir, in his despairing, wants Aragorn to be the saviour that he and his people have sought? Think about it: Boromir is trying to bring aid to his city, and sees the Ring or the Ranger as two possible solutions.

He's drowning, and so grasps at any hope. Aragorn has no siren song, and actually has stated that he doesn't want the responsibility. The Ring, on the other hand, assures Boromir that it can can bring victory. Boromir knows that the Ring might be lying, but he's still not sure. Galadriel most likely inflames the concern in Boromir's heart, and she may have made him even more desperate.
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:05 PM   #33
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I think that in the mentioned scene, Boromir is trying to get a compromise with Aragorn. He's basically saying, "No, you're not going to be king, but I'll accept you as my equal, as my fellow Lord of Gondor." By now he's spent substantial time with 'Gorn, 'Gorn's saved his life at least once, and so he's willing to extend the right hand of fellowship, though not (yet) willing to bow the knee. That's how I see it.
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Old 01-26-2006, 02:50 PM   #34
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Elladan and Elrohir, I can buy that. Boromir is by nature friendly and honorable, and his actions in Rivendell may have been due more to disappointment with the place and his mission (sent by the Steward) than by Aragorn personally.

He also may have been a little angry in that some no name Ranger is dating Liv, while the Steward's son's off running errands and saving Gondor. Some guys have all of the luck!

PJ doesn't directly show the relationship building between Boromir and Aragorn, and skips over the same with Legolas and Gimli. I guess we're just to 'fill in' the gaps in the stories.
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Old 01-26-2006, 03:37 PM   #35
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Even though it's been quite a while since I saw the film last time (a year or even two), I can't help commenting on this one.

I just see the relationship passing several stages in the movie (from Boromirs' point of view):
1) "Who do you think you are?" (at Rivendell, B is the big guy on his own opinion)
2) "We'll see, who's the guy!" (rivalry at journey, giving back Frodos' ring)
3) "I'm coming to like these lads via common endurance" (training with hobbits, Caradhras, Gate to Moria etc., humility, coming down from self- / Gondor-imposed heights, or at least friendship emerging)
4) "This guy saved my life, that's a big one!" (at Moria, the birth of real respect)
5) "You may think you are a king, and a mighty guy you are, but for pity's sake, be human like me, come down from your imagined throne!" (after Moria, trying to come even, trying to meet at common ground: "we are fellows, aren't we?"))
6) "Now this guy has some mighty friends - and they make me feel weak inside, they show me, my virtues aren't so high I've imagined, they make me reflect on things that are hurting me & my self-esteem" (at Lorien, especially with Galadriel, some reverence and friendly gestures to Aragorn)
7) "Saving Gondor is the thing, and this guy has the power. Let's make allies!" (at Anduin, remembering his basic goal & trying to fit it with his new adoration of Aragorn)
8) "So you won't back me? I'll have to do it my own!" then madness caused by the ring = unleash the rage and all that follows from it
9) Repentance, sacrifice, and asking for forgivenness + propably even trying to turn Aragorn to Minas Tirith as a last honourable deed from the stewards' son for his people ("My Captain, my King")

And just remembering a thing that has striked me in the movies. It is Boromir, who advances towards Aragorn with friendly intentions a couple of times (think f.ex. about the Rivendell scene in the extended version, where he tries to make friends etc.) and Aragorn always almost scorns him off (because of his internal battles that won't allow him to attach to anything, or care, or something?).

There sure is something weird in this.

It's not fool-proof, but something like a believable developement? How it compares to the book... that's a different question.

Sorry to enlarge this issue again out from the scene the discussion originally started.
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Old 01-27-2006, 08:02 PM   #36
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Nogrod, I think you make a good point about the relationship of Aragorn and Boromir. Boro is indeed the one who extends his hand, and 'Gorn always seems to want to draw back.

Of course, we know from the book that in their youth, Boromir's father Denethor was very hostile to Aragorn, and this may partially account for his reticence. I also think part of it has to do with Aragorn being introverted. Note that he can be very aggressive when he chooses (think Frodo at the Inn), but not here.

And, there may also be some pride involved. Aragorn is a self-deprecating figure ("The same blood flows through my veins. The same weakness."), and ironically, that's usually a sign of pride, not humility.

Aragorn's not willing to automatically make friends with a man of Gondor, the very kingdom he is destined to rule, because 1) this guy does not accept him, 2) this guy's father hated him, and 3) this guy shows early signs of being drawn to the Ring, the fault of Aragorn's ancestor Isildur and the fault of Men. Okay, so there's three reasons at least. Maybe pride isn't involved. What say ye?
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Old 03-08-2006, 08:09 PM   #37
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Adding my two cents to a bit of an older discussion. This sequence is mostly alright. I don't specially like movie elves besides Legolas and Arwen (say what you may, but even if their characters are not like the ones in the book, they don't look like zombies most of the time)

Which leads me to my main point,

Most elves look like zombies, including some important ones.
Celeborn does, so does his wife (Galadriel). Elrond is not as bad, but then he's only half elven. Haldir is pretty aloof, but at least he shows SOME feeling... What about those elves walking up the stairs? is it just me or do they remind you of the dead walking through the caves on TTT (I know I'm jumping ahead, but still) But going back to my present rant which relates a little more to the actual scene...

Alright now, watch any other movie, you will see that the ones that are mostly unresponsive, stare and scare people away are the zombies! I just don't understand why PJ has decided to make the elves look even more than solemn. I could understand a very solemn Celeborn or Galadriel but why, oh why, do they have to look creepy?

And their words! Is Galadriel that lousy for giving a "pep talk" in the book? of course not! because Tolkien would have had to make half of his characters to commit suicide while the other half just curl up into the fetal position and wait for death to come to them.
"Your quest stands upon the edge of a knife, stray but a little and it will fail... to the ruin of all"
Is that how you encourage a group of people who are afraid, lost and have recenty gone through the traumatic experience of facing a Balrog and loosing their leader?

"Yet hope remains, while the company is true. Do not let your hearts be troubled, go now and rest...."
Oh, thanks... I mean, when you said all that stuff about knives and edges you had me scared for a moment, but now it's all good.

Sure, she says those exact words in the books as well... yet as a part of a much longer speech!!! Why does PJ try so hard to make everything look gloomy and terrible?

We see this happening all over the place. It seems that for every encouraging word Galadriel says, ten discouraging sentences are uttered.

To conclude this rant, another of my favourite pet-peeves.... Crazy Galadriel. Please, a green Galadriel was not called for! I could understand lots of light, I could understand her looking taller and threatening... but green? and why the two voices? does her voice not have enough strenght already? (I Think it does)
That little scene is (to me at least) clearly overkill. Sort of trying to show off "hey, check this cool FX we just bought!". I don't like it.

Ok, I think I shall stop here for now... sorry to dig up an oldie but this scene is one of my biggest pet-peaves
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:04 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Most elves look like zombies, including some important ones.
Celeborn does, so does his wife (Galadriel). Elrond is not as bad, but then he's only half elven. Haldir is pretty aloof, but at least he shows SOME feeling... What about those elves walking up the stairs? is it just me or do they remind you of the dead walking through the caves on TTT (I know I'm jumping ahead, but still) But going back to my present rant which relates a little more to the actual scene...
I'm with you on that. The elves seen when the FotR are leaving Rivendell, with the exception of Arwen, look like billboards, and the Galadhrim that are walking up the steps are (1) CG and (2) rigid. Guess that's what you get when you cast for 'tall model types.'

"Walk like you're on the catwalk, but slowly...and ill paid."

Can't say that about Haldir, whom we will see in TTT.
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:54 AM   #39
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Pipe Alas! for Cerin Amroth

I see this Withywindle of a thread has meandered back to the sequence at hand. Well done, Farael! Although it was interesting to read about Aragorn vs Boromir.

I'm at real odds with PJ on the subject of Lothlórien. He decided to make it dangerous, uncomfortable and dark. When reading the book, I found it in general to be welcoming, blissful, sun-drenched, beautiful and restful.
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Lothlórien

"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."
I feel that the Fellowship deserved a break after the loss of Gandalf in Moria, and that the movie needed a little lightening as well. I really don't know what PJ hoped to achieve by seemingly turning the Fellowship's closest allies against them (a theme regrettably repeated later with Faramir; also Elrond was not as benevolent as in the book). Right from the word go, they are arrested at arrow point by Haldir and company. I wouldn't be surprised if moviegoers who had not read the book were unsure whether these elves were "goodies" or "baddies".

I really missed seeing fields of flowers, and Cerin Amroth, the "heart of Elvendom on earth". I disagree that this would have been difficult to film.

The view of Caras Galadhon in the EE was another one of those Moria moments where we are supposed to gape in awe, simply because the characters are doing so. I think that it should not be shoved in the audiences' faces so bluntly, and we should be left to form our own impression of whatever newfangled CG monstrosity PJ is showing us.

I personally don't like the stairways in Caras Galadhon. I much preferred the idea of rope ladders; what do others feel about this seemingly minor change? Perhaps PJ and co had a good reason for the change.

The entrance of Celeborn and Galadriel was likeable enough, but again we have too many shots of the characters' reactions guiding us, and we aren't left alone to bask in Cate Blanchett's reflected glory. Absolutely superb casting and performance of Galadriel. The only problem IMO is that Cate would also have made a fantastic Éowyn! The introduction scene was, however at odds with the book. In the book, Celeborn and Galadriel are far more humble. They are seated on the same level as the Fellowship, and rise when their guests enter. In the movie, they seemingly descend from on high, and remain elevated above the Fellowship, aloof one would almost say. Sam's (book) description of Galadriel as merry as a hobbit lass with flowers in her hair would be out of place. I thought Celeborn's dialogue was a bit wooden and laboured in this scene, but he is much better later in the EE when he speaks with Aragorn.

I liked the Mirror scene. I did miss Sam, but perhaps the scene works better without him; I'm not a big fan of Sean Astin as Sam at any rate, so I'm pretty happy with just Galadriel and Frodo there. I liked Frodo seeing the Eye of Sauron here; in fact, I think this should have been the first time in the movie that he saw it. I disliked Galadriel's use of "you know whom I mean" or whatever it was, simply because the "you know" line has been bashed about quite a bit between her and Saruman ("you know of what I speak", referring Gandalf to the Eye of Sauron). Just a minor annoyance, really. I must be in the majority, but I quite enjoyed her transformation. She looked regal and positively dangerous; it was interesting to see what she would look like had she stretched out her hand to the One Ring and set herself up as the Power over Middle Earth, and contrast this with her normal self, Galadriel.

"To bear a Ring of Power is to be alone" didn't really make sense to me. None of the bearers of the Three are alone, are they? Even Thráin had his son Thorin. Maybe she meant that to bear the Ring of Power was to be alone? However, I did like "even the smallest person can change the world" (have I got that right?), since it seems to be one of the main themes of the book and the movies.

I was pleased to see the gift giving added in the EE, although Sam's rudeness in asking for "one of them swords" was really grating. Whatever happened to:
Quote:
Farewell to Lórien

Sam went red to the ears and muttered something inaudible, as he clutched the box and bowed as well as he could.
Saruman and Lurtz may have been a gratifying scene for those who love to see our delightfully evil villain, but now that it comes down to it, I wonder how the movie would have been if the identity of the orcs was a mystery, as in the book? I mean not only their creation, but their owner? So that Aragorn and co have to piece it together from the evidence: the white hand and the S-rune.

I don't think we really needed to see Saruman instructing his new creation in the origins of orcs. But, whatever, the scene was okay so no real complaints from this corner.

And that's my two cents on FOTR Sequence 12.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:04 PM   #40
sassyfriend
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sassyfriend has just left Hobbiton.
Only time I liked Galadriel is when she smiled other then that I didn't really like her at all. I totally agree that Aragorn wasn't friendly at all towards Boromir. But I do recall seeing him grin when Boromir and his little ones were wrestling with each other and i adore that moment.
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