Tokien and C.S. Lewis - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dorathain_Flamesword · 11-19-2002, 04:15 PM

Ok, I was talking to my friend yesterday night and we were talking about the biblical ties in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, i.e. Gandalf portraying Jesus in a way.

And then we got into the discussion of Tokien being religous. And we talked about C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia books and how they respresent biblical stuff. And my friend said that Tokien said that C.S. Lewis' books were foolish and were not religous. Is this true?

dragoneyes · 11-19-2002, 04:35 PM

I don't think Tolkien was trying to be religious, he didn't like that sort of thing (the word escapes me at the moment) but i believe that that C.S. Lewis did intend the religious links.

**lindil** · 11-19-2002, 05:32 PM

I never came across so negative an attitude of JRRT towards CSL's Christian Writings. Although he had [ and expressed] some misgivings] Narnia which as elements of pure allegory; the most obvious being Aslan does in fact = Jesus Christ. This sort of thing was not to JRRT's liking, but I have never seen a quote of his [ or recall one at least] that was so harsh.

I have read the Inklings [ along time ago] the Magical World of the Inklings and Tolkien a biography along w/ a few other scattered books on JRRT. And he comments on CSL in his Letters.

Dorathain, would ask your friend for some specific quotes. I would bet you are getting an exaggerated paraphrase.

And welcome to the Downs Dorathain!

Mintyztwin · 11-19-2002, 10:18 PM

In the forward to FotR, JRRT states that ". . . I cordialy dislike allegory and all its manifestations . . ." Perhaps this is what your friend is refering to?

Túroch · 11-20-2002, 01:19 AM

Hmm, thats an odd statement. From my reaserch Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were very close friends and didn't like to criticize each others works. Tolkien most of all wanted to tell a good story and he didn't like the idea of an allegory were the story was subserviant to an idea. Lewis's books are all pure allegory. In Tolkien's books the story is just a Really good story and is not a theology is disguise. So Tolkien didn't prefer Lewis style but he by no means thought his books were silly.

P.S. What do you guys think of my cool new avatar. It finally started showing up today.

HerenIstarion · 11-20-2002, 01:51 AM

Quote:

265 From a letter to David Kolb, S.J. 11 November 1964

It is sad that 'Narnia' and all <font color="FF0013">that part [highlighted bu H-I] of C.S.L.'s work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his. Also, I personally found Letters to Malcolm a distressing and in parts horrifying work. I began a commentary on it, but if finished it would not be publishable.

that does not mean of course, and, in fact implies, that Tolkien liked other parts, still more they were close friends, and he (JRRT) was appreciating Lewis' opinion greatly:

Quote:

L276 To **** Plotz, 'Thain' of the Tolkien Society of America

But Lewis was a very impressionable man, and this was abetted by his great generosity and capacity for friendship

Quote:

[Of C. S. Lewis's comments on The Lord of the Rings:] 'When he would say, "You can do better than that. Better, Tolkien, please!" I would try. I'd sit down and write the section over and over. That happened with the scene I think is the best in the book, the confrontation between Gandalf and his rival wizard, Saruman, in the ravaged city of Isengard.

the main reason for disagreement between two came, i think, of their different, though in both cases Christian, theological outlooks. cf:

Quote:

L291 To Walter Hooper

I noticed, for the first time consciously, how dualistic Lewis' mind and imagination [were], though as a philosopher his reason entirely rejected this. So the pun Hierarchy/ Lowerarchy. And of course the 'Miserific Vision' is rationally nonsense, not to say theologically blasphemous.

HerenIstarion · 11-20-2002, 02:18 AM

BTW, **** stands for shorter form of Richard, but, since apparently this board has improper language protection on...

Atariel · 11-20-2002, 01:46 PM

I've just finished an RE project about CS Lewis, and i needed to look at a lot of allegorical links between the Bible and the chrnicles of Narnia. Aslan is SO obviously Jesus, the white witch is the devil, the stone table is the cross, Lucy Susan Edmund and Peter are Matthew Mark Luke and John. i do, however, strongly dislike Lewis, because he, in theory, spurned Tolkien for ilicit satanist Charles Williams.

**lindil** · 11-20-2002, 01:59 PM

"Spurned Tolkien" ?

Guildo · 11-20-2002, 02:24 PM

i would like to point out that for one C.S. Lewis is one of the most destinguished religious writers of his time, and infact Dedicates a Book to his good friend J.R.R Tolkien, just open up a book called "The Screwtape Letters" and youl clearly see, These two guys had the utmost respect for eachother and i dont think they would speak poorly of eachother in any way, and infact i wouldnt doubt it if they actualy accepted each others ideas.

Mintyztwin · 11-20-2002, 08:26 PM

From what I've heard (Which is never entirly reliable) and what I know (which isn't much) Lewis and Tolkien were good friends, and Lewis considered Tolkien his mentor. I could be all wet though. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Knight of Gondor · 11-20-2002, 09:22 PM

Tolkien and Lewis were good friends, yes. But from what I hear, Tolkien was quite critical of Lewis's work because it was so blatently allegorical. I think Lewis took it right in stride though, and the two remained good friends. (As far as I know)

While Tolkien didn't want to get allegorical, being a Christian I don't think he could avoid it. However, he didn't create perfect allegories (such as Lewis did with Aslan), but sprinkled it around. (I've heard it put that three of the places of Jesus were incorporated, Priest, Prophet and King; Frodo as Priest, carrying away the sin, Gandalf as Prophet, and Aragorn as King.)

I read The Chronicles of Narnia very early on, and didn't get into the Lewis's Space Trilogy until much later. (And 'tis a good thing too...Lewis's characters swear like sailors sometimes!) I didn't become a Rings fan until just last year!

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-21-2002, 07:42 AM

There have been several discussions on Tolkien and C.S.Lewis; please check here, here, here, and here. Since that's already confusing enough, this thread is closed. Please read and post on the above.

11-19-2002, 04:15 PM	#1
Dorathain_Flamesword Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: U.S. Though Middle-Earth, Ireland or New Zealand would suit me. I am 50% Irish. Posts: 35	Tokien and C.S. Lewis Ok, I was talking to my friend yesterday night and we were talking about the biblical ties in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, i.e. Gandalf portraying Jesus in a way. And then we got into the discussion of Tokien being religous. And we talked about C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia books and how they respresent biblical stuff. And my friend said that Tokien said that C.S. Lewis' books were foolish and were not religous. Is this true? __________________ Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. "Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. -Helm's Deep.

11-19-2002, 04:35 PM	#2
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	I don't think Tolkien was trying to be religious, he didn't like that sort of thing (the word escapes me at the moment) but i believe that that C.S. Lewis did intend the religious links. __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

11-19-2002, 05:32 PM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I never came across so negative an attitude of JRRT towards CSL's Christian Writings. Although he had [ and expressed] some misgivings] Narnia which as elements of pure allegory; the most obvious being Aslan does in fact = Jesus Christ. This sort of thing was not to JRRT's liking, but I have never seen a quote of his [ or recall one at least] that was so harsh. I have read the Inklings [ along time ago] the Magical World of the Inklings and Tolkien a biography along w/ a few other scattered books on JRRT. And he comments on CSL in his Letters. Dorathain, would ask your friend for some specific quotes. I would bet you are getting an exaggerated paraphrase. And welcome to the Downs Dorathain! __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-19-2002, 10:18 PM	#4
Mintyztwin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The other side of crazy Posts: 212	In the forward to FotR, JRRT states that ". . . I cordialy dislike allegory and all its manifestations . . ." Perhaps this is what your friend is refering to? __________________ So, where are we going? But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness. 1 Timothy 6:2

11-20-2002, 01:19 AM	#5
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Hmm, thats an odd statement. From my reaserch Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were very close friends and didn't like to criticize each others works. Tolkien most of all wanted to tell a good story and he didn't like the idea of an allegory were the story was subserviant to an idea. Lewis's books are all pure allegory. In Tolkien's books the story is just a Really good story and is not a theology is disguise. So Tolkien didn't prefer Lewis style but he by no means thought his books were silly. P.S. What do you guys think of my cool new avatar. It finally started showing up today. __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

11-20-2002, 02:18 AM	#7
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	BTW, **** stands for shorter form of Richard, but, since apparently this board has improper language protection on... __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

11-20-2002, 01:46 PM	#8
Atariel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Valimar Posts: 68	I've just finished an RE project about CS Lewis, and i needed to look at a lot of allegorical links between the Bible and the chrnicles of Narnia. Aslan is SO obviously Jesus, the white witch is the devil, the stone table is the cross, Lucy Susan Edmund and Peter are Matthew Mark Luke and John. i do, however, strongly dislike Lewis, because he, in theory, spurned Tolkien for ilicit satanist Charles Williams. __________________ Nai tiruvantel, ar varyuvantel i valar tielyanna nu vilya

11-20-2002, 01:59 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"Spurned Tolkien" ? __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-20-2002, 02:24 PM	#10
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	i would like to point out that for one C.S. Lewis is one of the most destinguished religious writers of his time, and infact Dedicates a Book to his good friend J.R.R Tolkien, just open up a book called "The Screwtape Letters" and youl clearly see, These two guys had the utmost respect for eachother and i dont think they would speak poorly of eachother in any way, and infact i wouldnt doubt it if they actualy accepted each others ideas. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

11-20-2002, 08:26 PM	#11
Mintyztwin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The other side of crazy Posts: 212	From what I've heard (Which is never entirly reliable) and what I know (which isn't much) Lewis and Tolkien were good friends, and Lewis considered Tolkien his mentor. I could be all wet though. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ So, where are we going? But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, and gentleness. 1 Timothy 6:2

11-20-2002, 09:22 PM	#12
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Tolkien and Lewis were good friends, yes. But from what I hear, Tolkien was quite critical of Lewis's work because it was so blatently allegorical. I think Lewis took it right in stride though, and the two remained good friends. (As far as I know) While Tolkien didn't want to get allegorical, being a Christian I don't think he could avoid it. However, he didn't create perfect allegories (such as Lewis did with Aslan), but sprinkled it around. (I've heard it put that three of the places of Jesus were incorporated, Priest, Prophet and King; Frodo as Priest, carrying away the sin, Gandalf as Prophet, and Aragorn as King.) I read The Chronicles of Narnia very early on, and didn't get into the Lewis's Space Trilogy until much later. (And 'tis a good thing too...Lewis's characters swear like sailors sometimes!) I didn't become a Rings fan until just last year! __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-21-2002, 07:42 AM	#13
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	There have been several discussions on Tolkien and C.S.Lewis; please check here, here, here, and here. Since that's already confusing enough, this thread is closed. Please read and post on the above. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'