A sad experience

[Son of Númenor]

I watched The Fellowship of the Ring last night.

The first time I saw it in theaters, it was the most moving cinematic experience I ever had. I was totally immersed in the mythic canvas, and found it putting me in touch with what must be an innate ancestral longing for the landscapes and cultures which inspired Tolkien's epic, as well as that intangible, transcendental feeling which Einstein aptly calls the "mystical emotion". I truly savoured the books after seeing the first film, and though the next two films were let-downs by my lofty expectations, still anything Tolkien-related rarely failed to inspire that sense of youthful wonderment. I felt that the dust of the accumulated cynicism from my short years in this insanely materialist society had been swept away - for that I will always be thankful to the good professor, and to Peter Jackson & Co.

Watching it last night, I found myself caught up at first in the story and seeing a little of myself in all of the characters. The old emotions were roused from dormancy, and I was especially receptive as I'd had a good, joyful cry for the first time in a while only minutes before putting in the DVD.

However, as the film progressed, I realized that a lot of it had lost its enchantment, and that I had become too critical a film-viewer to allow myself to be swept away: many of Jackson's cuts annoyed me, and the whole segment from the fellowship's departure from Rivendell to their departure from Lorien felt rushed and in parts relied too heavily on dramatic cliche in place of any substantial dialogue. It's hard to fault Jackson: even the full three hours isn't nearly enough time by any hard-nosed Tolkenite's standards, and he had to take into account mainstream audiences that wanted a holiday blockbuster that was not too difficult to follow and didn't linger where the action wasn't. Still, I found myself disappointed.

To truly appreciate what Jackson accomplished, it may be that I'll have to take a few years off from watching the films. But my purpose in making the thread wasn't to critique Jackson, anyway, but to share with you an experience of disenchantment which I am sure many of you can relate to. The sunlit hills and misty valleys of Middle-earth are a part of who I am that I cherish, but I often feel I need new walking shoes to go tramping in them again.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The first time I saw it in theaters, it was the most moving cinematic experience I ever had. I was totally immersed in the mythic canvas, and found it putting me in touch with what must be an innate ancestral longing for the landscapes and cultures which inspired Tolkien's epic, as well as that intangible, transcendental feeling which Einstein aptly calls the "mystical emotion".

Beautiful description, and I wholeheartedly agree. I feel the same way when I watch The Fellowship, and I even felt it when I first saw it in theatres.

Yet, I know what you mean. The magic of PJ's films has been a bit dimmed due to my harsh critique of what he should have done, what he shouldn't have done, etc. It's been a while since I just sat down and enjoyed the movies for what they are. I do not think the movies have lost their illuminate beauty, but I understand what you are saying and I feel like to return to that beateous feeling of first encountered mysticism maybe a little break from the movies is best. I always found that if I take a break from the movies and read the books, even if I just read a few chapters- soak in the magic of the books -then that very similiar magic returns when I put on the movies, The Fellowship in specific.

Great post!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Ahhh.

My family went on vacation and we came in the car for a long drive, and my little brother and I watched the fellowship...honostly, I got bored, I wanted to have more bookish like things happen, like the Old Forest and the Bombadil sequence, it had truely lost it's magic!
The only thing that had amused me like it had was the Shire sequences.

Thats just my two cents!

[Quempel]

Strangely enough I can understand. When the movies first came out on DVD I watched them many times, to the point I could say the lines. And the movies lost their magic. Then I stopped watching them, for a good long time. I hardly ever watch them anymore, but when I do I still have some of the magic, but some of it is gone.

However, I ended up reading The Two Towers this weekend, purely by mistake, I picked up the book to find a qoute in the Helms Deep chapter and ended up reading the entire book. And I was once again swept into the magic that is Middle Earth. My first thought was I should watch the movies again, after reading the books.

I don't know maybe it's just me, and I am not knocking the movies, but the books seem to inspire magic and wonderment in my own imagination and the movies seem to bring the magic and wonderment to a bit of life, but not to the full extent as the books.

[mormegil]

Agreed! I, the other day, found myself watching a clip of FotR that I instead of bringing back the magical first experience, I was critical and found flaws instead. The situation was the one where Arwen is confronting the Nazgul at the river. I remember being awestruck the first time(s) I watched it and thinkg how wonderful it was. Seeing the water take horse shape and override the Nazgul thus preserving Frodo from their evil grasp. This time I noticed how relatively small the river was and that by the time the Nazgul noticed the rushing water they would have had plenty of time to get safely to one side or the other of the river but instead they decided to run downstream.

I'm not sure the years will bring it back though. I love Star Wars and was an avid fan as a child. I still enjoy it and my 4 and 2 year old are getting into it...the classic mind you...but as I watch it with them I don't feel the same as I used to.

Have I lost that innocence and excitement that once encapsulated me entirely or have I dedicated that to other newer pursuits? What was once magical and mystical is only a fond walk through nostalgia. I can still find that in books, but I fear it has been lost on the screen for me.

[Sir Kohran]

I know what you mean. They're often on Channel 4 and yet I don't watch them simply because there's no longer any point. I've seen them to the point where there's nothing more to see. Every line, every fight scene, every camera shot...I can predict them all. There are times when I almost wish I hadn't read the books (blasphemy ) just so that I could still enjoy the movies just as movies, and not start thinking about stuff in the book, what PJ 'should' have done, etc. Perhaps if we ever see a different extended edition with new scenes and modified sequences I might feel more inclined to watch them.

[Sauron the White]

People...go through their lives in a sort of coarse comfort, like petted animals, without ever realizing that they are probably thinking other people's thoughts, living by other people's standards, wearing practically what one may call other people's second-hand clothes, and never being themselves for a single moment.

...Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. -

Oscar Wilde

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm actually just waiting for the right moment to watch FOTR again. I've been re-reading the book, and it's got me in a Middle-earthy mood. It's just hard to find the time to watch a 3-hour movie, or even to read a few chapters in a day. :P

STW, what do you mean by that Wilde quote? It's very disillusioned for my tastes. I don't see anything wrong with hoping FOTR will be magical when you watch it again. Nor do I see anything wrong with looking for comfort or catharsis or whatever in a movie. After all, the way I see it, the LOTR movies show a kind of truth and integrity rarely found these days...and because of this, they inspire the same kind of truth in the audience. It's possible to live the opposite kind of life to what Wilde is talking about, and to still want the LOTR movies to be the same. I'm doing it.

I've been trying to say something here in response to the original topic, but I had a hard time with it, I think because it lies too close to the person I am for me to objectively define it...but here goes with a rather weak attempt...

I think that the trick is to see that you're not exactly the same anymore...but the movie is going to be exactly the same. But that that's allright, and it shouldn't have to be anything different than it is in that moment. Instead of trying to see it through old eyes, watch it through the new ones. I think that the dissatisfaction happens when you try to reconcile what you know it SHOULD be with what it is.

Or perhaps it has to do with knowing what it was in you that made you wonder at the FOTR movie...and then reviving it and holding onto it, or never letting go of it in the first place.

*sigh* It's not coming together for me. Perhaps someone will get my drift.

[Sauron the White]

Azaelia ... I do not think that the term "groupthink" was present in the days of Oscar Wilde but he described it just the same. You describe the quote as too disillusioned for your taste. There is no doubt that Wilde cuts to the quick without all the frills and lace and often appears cynical or curt. But in his curtness is wisdom and insight.

[alatar]

First, there's no going back...

That said, for those of you with different experiences when you've rewatched the movies, are you controlling for environmental variables? When you first saw them, were you at the cineplex with a bunch of friends, on a date, or, like me and the Mrs., spending a few rare hours without having to watch the kids? Did you get dressed up, have a soda, go out afterwards and discuss it ad nauseam? And then, when you've rewatched them, was it late night on your 12" computer monitor while you were hungry and studying?

Before passing judgment, run the correct control experiment, and see if the rewatching is truly what has changed.

[Lush]

I know what you mean, SoNo.

Relationships ebb and flow, and our relationships with artistic material are no different in that regard.

I was actually quite surprised when, upon re-watching "The Return of the King" with my brother, I found that I had liked it more than I did before. When I saw the final film in the theaters, I found myself unmoved by large chunks of it and wrote it off as mostly a disappointment. The scene at the Grey Havens had particularly irritated me - I thought it could have been done a whole lot better.

I can't pinpoint what it was that made me respond to it in a very different way when I watched it later. Was it because I was in the company of a child, and was seeing at least some of it through his eyes? Was it because I was picking up on a completely different vibe from the source material itself (considering how multi-faceted it is)? Was I simply in a better mood? Who knows?

The important thing is, your thoughts and emotions have not remained static.

[Meneltarmacil]

Well, after watching the series again after a long time (FOTR and TTT as-released, and the ROTK EE), I can't say that I was disappointed by anything (with the possible exceptions of Denethor's disgusting eating scene, Sam's "Share the load," and the detour to Osgiliath, in that order) but that's all. Sure, Peter Jackson's LOTR wasn't a perfect translation of the books, but the truth is, it didn't have to be. I enjoyed it regardless.

Now, as for how my feelings toward the movies have changed, I find that I'm less bothered by them now than I was before, mainly because when I was watching them in theaters, I kept wondering, "Oh no, is he going to ruin the next scene or will it be OK?" Now I don't have to worry about it.

Can't say that I can relate to your experiences, Son of Numenor. I always thought that the movies were flawless masterpieces and they were my favourites for a long time. But I haven't seen them in a while. So, once I do (should probably be some time next January) I'll get back to you on that one. I'm intrigued, because in the span of time since I last watched the films, I have become quite a harsh movie critic myself, looking at everything from acting to editing.

[Lalwendë]

Remembering something from my A Level Economics lessons (which is surprising seeing as I hated the subject) it's just what they call The Law Of Diminishing Returns. For example, you fancy some chocolate cake and would happily chew off your own arm to get some so you scoff a monster sized piece. It was gooood, so you scoff another monster sized piece, that was good too, not as good, but still good. Then you have another monster sized piece and it was alright. Then you see there's one slice left and you think you may as well eat it (what? are you bulimic or something?) rather than stuff it back in the cake tin and it was....well, it made you feel a bit sick, actually...

You get this with just about anything enjoyable unfortunately. And films suffer it more than books as you are passively watching someone else's 'head pictures' whereas with a book you've got to actively work at it to get the 'head pictures' and there is at least an outside chance they might be different each time...

I'm not sure, Lalwende. I think you're thinking of something else. Sure, if you watched the Lord of the Rings again and again and again and again, or read a book again and again or any book or movie or ate too much food, of course you'd get sick. But I was under the impression that Son of Numenor meant he found flaws in the film that he didn't see before. I don't know if the differences I'm trying to communicate make sense, or what SoN was really saying, but that's just my opinion.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithol

I'm not sure, Lalwende. I think you're thinking of something else. Sure, if you watched the Lord of the Rings again and again and again and again, or read a book again and again or any book or movie or ate too much food, of course you'd get sick. But I was under the impression that Son of Numenor meant he found flaws in the film that he didn't see before. I don't know if the differences I'm trying to communicate make sense, or what SoN was really saying, but that's just my opinion.

Same thing really. The novelty has worn off so you do notice the flaws more and are less able to tolerate them!

[Neurion]

I can barely stand to watch the films anymore. The men are all women, the women are all girls and the direction is ludicrously unsubtle at every opportunity.

More and more, I think, "how did ever enjoy this?"

Greetings everyone!

I still very much enjoy watching the films, though I can see what you mean. As the films were all released around Christmas time, and several friends and I had grown so accustomed to going to the theater each year to watch the next installment, it has become somewhat of a Christmas tradition to sit down before Christmas and watch the films.

I'm sure the excitement of the films would have worn out some time ago had it not been an excuse to get friends together for the holidays. But it is certainly something I look forward to by mid-December each year.

Regards,
Ytheogan

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Neurion

I can barely stand to watch the films anymore. The men are all women, the women are all girls and the direction is ludicrously unsubtle at every opportunity.

More and more, I think, "how did ever enjoy this?"

What is wrong with you?!

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Hey you know that for some people that it is boring to watch some movies even if they are based off of a favourite book for example I hate and hate it even more when I watch it, Spiderman or Superman, pretty much anything that has to do with those stupid "Super" hero's I can't stand it!

[Groin Redbeard]

Everyone in this thread keeps saying how they hate certain parts of the movies because this part isn't as good as I hoped it to be, or this part should have had this and that, or this scene should have been longer.

The thing is for me, I try to always have that feeling of when I first saw the movies. That feeling was awsome and I never want to loose it.

Instead of saying negative things about the movies, how about saying nice things like: I'm glad that they were made in the first place!

[Thinlómien]

I think it's rather funny - I rewatched the movies after a long while of not watching them and I liked them actually more than before (even though less than when they first came out).

Time is to blame. The movies have existed long enough for me to accept them and I daresay I've grown up too and become less of a purist. (I remember when I first watched the movies I loved complaining about things like colour of the horses etc. )

The actors (especially Viggo Mortensen and David Wenham) annoyed me less than they did before - they were doing a decent job, after all, even though I must say I found Orlando Bloom even more annoying than before. Uncanonicity troubled me far less than before, even though I still think Jackson got many things plain wrong (like the Elves coming to Helm's Deep and Frodo ordering Sam to go away... eurgh).

Lastly, I must say I truly enjoyed watching the movies, thanks to a few amazingly excellent actors (Sean Bean, Sir Ian McKellen and Bernard Hill), breathtaking imaginery, beautiful music (I just love the Rohan theme) and the story, which I perceived, is still the same lovely story from the book.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Everyone in this thread keeps saying how they hate certain parts of the movies because this part isn't as good as I hoped it to be, or this part should have had this and that, or this scene should have been longer.

The thing is for me, I try to always have that feeling of when I first saw the movies. That feeling was awsome and I never want to loose it.

Instead of saying negative things about the movies, how about saying nice things like: I'm glad that they were made in the first place!

I so agree. But I like the EE more (just not the Gandalf vs WK scene).

[Araréiel]

Unfortunately we are a society brought of on negativity and being too critical of the work of others. Instead of focusing on the good, we are told to focus on the bad and to pick apart anything good. Negative reviews are usually more entertaining to read than positive ones, and bad press surrounding celebrities garners more general interest in the mainstream. After a while we will adopt the same attitude, and that blows as it robs us of our ability to be able to enjoy things. I re-watched the whole EE trilogy this past week, ending last night, and was annoyed to find myself picking apart the special effects, where it's clear to me that they are in front of a green screen (Pip and Merry riding atop Treebeard, for instance), and where the special effects are slightly less smooth than at other spots (Legolas grabbing ahold of the horse's harness and swinging up unto its back). Some things annoyed me the first time around, primarily Legolas surfing down the stairs at Helm's Deep on the shield, or surfing down the oliphant's trunk at the battle at Minas Tirith. Those things were clearly to ride on the crushes of fangirls. It made me hate being a fan of Legolas to be lumped in with those stupid girls.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Another movie fan chimes in:

you know I gotta hand it to Peter Jackson. I'm reading LOTR for the first time for a class (I tried reading the Hobbit and got frustrated and gave up), and for the first 200 pages all they did was walk and stop at places to eat. And he made a pretty exciting movie.

[Thinlómien]

I seem to be making this the unofficial re-watching experience thread...

I rewatched the movies yet again during the holidays. It's funny, I remember that last time I saw them I liked them better than I used to, and now I'm back to sort of disliking them.

It seems like Jackson has lost all of Tolkien's subtlety and wisdom and turned it into a cheesy blockbuster. There are good moments and good portrayals - Sean Bean's Boromir is brilliant - but all in all the movies really lack too much of what makes LotR LotR.

Sometimes the movies are just really badly made. Viggo Mortensen does decent job as Aragorn (you would not have heard me saying this two years ago) but the script really kills all his effort. I don't know why they had to make him such an idiot. Look at any scene where there's Aragorn and Boromir (except B's death) and you see how totally unfriendlily he treats him and how completely devoid he's of social intelligence. (The crudest example is their first meeting in Rivendell where Boromir tries to talk and call Aragorn a friend but he just reads his book and says maybe one sentence in a self-important tone.)

Concerning Aragorn and Boromir though, I quite liked one thing. Watching FotR, it actually seems that the turning point for Aragorn is Boromir's death - it's then that he accepts who he is and what is his path. It actually works quite beautifully and surely gives even a new angle to look at the books.

And there, I think, lies the thing we all old complaining purist book fans actually owe to the movies. I dare claim I'm not the only one who has got new ideas about some things in the book because of how they've been interpreted in the movies. That surely is a valuable thing.

[mormegil]

Okay so recently I watched the Fellowship with my daughter, this time I watched in in an actual home theater with a projection screen and a killer sound system and I must say it was better. I think, more so than other films, great sound is a factor in this movie. That is why I loved it a lot more when it was in the theater. Now, with that said, it still didn't hold the same enchantment it did on the first few viewings but it was much better with better sound.

[Morthoron]

Hi Lommie,

I think Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn is perhaps his weakest portrayal in his last 5 or 6 films (a few, like Eastern Promises, have been outstanding). His voice in no way carries any command like the formidable voices of McKellan or Lee (his speech at the Black Gate is thin and reedy), he aint tall (so it struck me as funny when folk were calling him 'Strider'), and as you mentioned previously, Jackson did him no favors with a muddled script, making Aragorn appear often friendless, whiny and indecisive (and Elrond was another whiny character in the films).

I will watch FotR or RotK occassionally, but I just can't bring myself to watch the Two Towers ever again. I'm hoping Del Toro presents a better scripted version of The Hobbit, or at least is able to flex his creative muscles and pimp-slap Jackson and Boyens when their plot-making gets ludicrous.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hi Lommie,
I think Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn is perhaps his weakest portrayal in his last 5 or 6 films (a few, like Eastern Promises, have been outstanding). His voice in no way carries any command like the formidable voices of McKellan or Lee (his speech at the Black Gate is thin and reedy), he aint tall (so it struck me as funny when folk were calling him 'Strider'), and as you mentioned previously, Jackson did him no favors with a muddled script, making Aragorn appear often friendless, whiny and indecisive (and Elrond was another whiny character in the films).

Agreed. I think he does well enough as Strider the Ranger, but he really does not have the charisma and commanding aura of a great king. He looks silly when they've tried to make him look clean and noble and like you say, he does not have the voice for it either. (Foir example, the coronation scene is totally spoiled once he starts giving a speech - the joyous and "high" atmosphere is suddenly gone. He speaks like the Finnish prime minister Matti Vanhanen, and that's not a compliment.)

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Okay so recently I watched the Fellowship with my daughter, this time I watched in in an actual home theater with a projection screen and a killer sound system and I must say it was better. I think, more so than other films, great sound is a factor in this movie. That is why I loved it a lot more when it was in the theater. Now, with that said, it still didn't hold the same enchantment it did on the first few viewings but it was much better with better sound.

Well one of the first things we did when we got our new Mothership-sized TV set before Christmas was watch FotR on it, and I must admit it was very enjoyable. We did spend a lot of the time going "Ooooh, look at that!" as we saw things that had previously been chopped off the side of the screen on our smaller TV!

And yes, good sound makes an amazing difference.

We never did get round to watching TT though

[Benjimir]

I have the extended editions on my media players at work (a Creative Zen) and watch them as I'm working on my websites. They are the only versions I can watch and pay any attention too. If I'm online at home, which often means playing LOTRO, its nice background noise at times.

But I was taught long ago in my youth to take movies as they are, and not mix them with the books. To try to compare any book to its movie version is impossible to do.

[BGreg]

When I first saw FoTR, I was simply amazed. Having read The Hobbit before, I knew some of the characters, but didn't know the storyline at all. So it was all a perfect surprise for me. Immediatly I decided to read the book, and did so very quickly.
Of course, I liked the book a lot. But still I enjoyed all the movies and thought they were a great work by PJ. However, every time I saw the movies again (and reread the books) I noticed more and more differences from the book. So it did have a negative influence on my pleasure of watching the movie.
Don't get me wrong, the movie is a masterpiece, but it's simply not IT. It doesn't have the subtlety Tolkien so fabolously incorporated in the book.

But I was taught long ago in my youth to take movies as they are, and not mix them with the books. To try to compare any book to its movie version is impossible to do.

It's a good thing you were taught that, Benjimir

[Vaine]

I saw the movies before I read any of the books, and I must say, I thought they were the best movies I had ever seen at the time.

Now after reading the book, they just dont have that much of an impact on me anymore. I did buy all three EE's not too long ago to see if they would bring back the good ole' lotr feeling, which they hardly did.

I almost never see the movies anymore, although I still think they're good. (From a blockbuster point of view )

It's kinda sad too, because whenever I read lotr, I always get movie images in my head, such as Frodo looking younger than he really was in the book.
It's hard to 'live' the book in my mind, if you know what I mean.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Benjimir

But I was taught long ago in my youth to take movies as they are, and not mix them with the books. To try to compare any book to its movie version is impossible to do.

Yeah, people keep saying that. I disagree.

The trouble with the films is not that they make departures from the book; that is inevitable and necessary in any adaptation. The trouble is that they make departures from the spirit of the book, unnecessary changes to the essence of the story that is The Lord of the Rings. Inherent differences in medium have nothing to do with it.

Both films and books are story-centric, and thus may be compared on how well they convey a particular story. The Lord of the Rings is a particular story, with a particular spirit that Peter Jackson does not understand, and which he was unable to capture.

You cannot take the films just "as they are." Since they were intended as an adaptation, I see no reason why we shouldn't judge them on that basis - how well did they function as an adaptation? There are aspects, of course, that do not correspond to the books at all, things that do not translate between mediums. Story is not one of these.

This idea is fresh in my mind, since I watched the extended trilogy straight (for the second time!) just two weeks ago.

[MaultheStoor]

When I get bored with the LOTR movies, I curl up with one of the books instead. I'm pretty sure the movies don't get jealous or anything.....

[LadyBrooke]

For me the books and movies serve different purposes so I can enjoy both of them without either having a negative effect on the other. I did see the movies before reading any of Tolkien’s books, and I do enjoy a bit of good natured complaining about changes the movies made from the books.

The books - Tolkien is easily my favorite author. His books are my thinking books, my fantasy books, the books I use as justification when anybody says my obsession with fantasy or languages is stupid. I read the books for the enjoyment of always finding something new in them, the satisfaction of finishing a reread every year - I’ve read them every year since I got them in 7th grade, so 4 times so far, every year around my birthday. I never imagine the books as looking like the movies, either..

The movies - I am sick a lot. The movies are my curl up on the couch with a diet coke and snack under a blanket, escape into another world without having to try and read a book with watery eyes cure. I will also admit that I love the costumes and they have reawakened my interest in costume design, something I had forgotten I enjoyed.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The movies do offer some "entertainment" avenues
different from the books. You can watch them to
observe and appreciate the cinematography, costume,
and weaponology efforts. Also, watching them while
playing some of the dvd tracks with commentary,
especially the actors and special effects people are
entertaining and insightful. Related, it's interesting
to both watch the prologue and hear the analyses,
views, and interpretaions of various people involved
in it.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I do miss the landscapes and that feeling of being part of another world, which was Middle-Earth. I find myself reinstalling the Hobbit video game and other Lord of the Rings games just to play the less linear, more exploration-based levels, where I can admire the world Tolkien created. The magic has died somewhat because I've read every book and seen every film a good many times. When I read the Silmarillion for the first time, it was so close to reliving the magic of The Lord of the Rings again that it was amazing for me.

But I think in the end that feeling of wonder isn't going to come back, and you don't find it the same way in any other fantasy world either. We're stuck with nostalgia ...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Vaine

It's hard to 'live' the book in my mind, if you know what I mean.

It is true. I've found (since I am in the same boat, reading the books after seeing the movies) that movie images flash through my head when I read LotR, I don't like this. But thankfully doesn't when I read the Sil.

[Gwathagor]

That sometimes happens to me, too. However, I draw a lot, and I've found that drawing things from the book helps me to imagine them more originally. You might try it.

Speaking of which, the Barrow-downs should have a fan art page.