The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-26-2008, 11:53 PM   #1
Anárion Cúthalion
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Anórien, at the foot hills of the Ered Nimrais
Posts: 9
Anárion Cúthalion has just left Hobbiton.
Hobbits?

It has been some time since I last read the Silmarillian, but a question still remains; why are the Hobbits, Stoors and other Halflings not mentioned until the Third Age? Did Tolkien leave us any clues as to their origins?

Seriously, it is an awful gap in our knowledge.
Anárion Cúthalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 06:36 PM   #2
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
In the Prologue to FOTR, J.R.R.T. offers only this :

Quote:
....Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. ....What exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all.
So, the Elves apparently recorded most of the histories of the First Age, specifically the Elves of Beleriand, and Hobbits don't seem to be anywhere about. Very sensible of them, really, since Morgoth didn't make for a very good neighbor.

I wonder if the Dwarves weren't possibly the first of the 'speaking peoples' to come into contact with them, as they seem throughout The Hobbit and LOTR to take hobbits for granted, whereas most others seem to regard them as legends, or such.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 08:56 PM   #3
Morthoron
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
 
Morthoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,508
Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Morthoron is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
So, the Elves apparently recorded most of the histories of the First Age, specifically the Elves of Beleriand, and Hobbits don't seem to be anywhere about. Very sensible of them, really, since Morgoth didn't make for a very good neighbor.

I wonder if the Dwarves weren't possibly the first of the 'speaking peoples' to come into contact with them, as they seem throughout The Hobbit and LOTR to take hobbits for granted, whereas most others seem to regard them as legends, or such.
Well, considering Hobbits did not journey westward over the Misty Mountains until well into the 3rd Age, it is unlikely any Elves of the Sindar or Noldor races (those for whom the histories of the 1st Age were written) were even aware of the halflings previous to the 3rd Age (or cared much at all at that point).
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
Morthoron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2008, 11:37 PM   #4
Anárion Cúthalion
Newly Deceased
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Anórien, at the foot hills of the Ered Nimrais
Posts: 9
Anárion Cúthalion has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Well, considering Hobbits did not journey westward over the Misty Mountains until well into the 3rd Age, it is unlikely any Elves of the Sindar or Noldor races (those for whom the histories of the 1st Age were written) were even aware of the halflings previous to the 3rd Age (or cared much at all at that point).
Some very good points. I wish that I was able to get to this sooner. But it is said in the prologue of the Fellowship of the Ring that halfings are closer in kinship with men that elves or dwarves, yet it seems that they remain a race apart. Tolkien, it seems, loved to leave people with riddles that can never be solved.

That is, unless I'm an over-analyzer.
Anárion Cúthalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2008, 12:55 PM   #5
Selador
Pile O'Bones
 
Selador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Selador has just left Hobbiton.
The origins of Hobbits remains a mystery that I think Tolkien preferred to leave unsolved. I think that it is better left that way. But really, the existence of Hobbits is a sort of an historical accident.

Tolkien's letters make it clear that he was content to close the book on Hobbits after he had written the book The Hobbit. He really never intended them to get pulled into the universe of his greater mythology and was very resistant to any sort of sequel. But while JRRT wanted to flesh out his histories of Men and Elves, his publishers were insistent that a sequel involving Hobbits be written. So, we ended up with a masterpiece that encompasses both.

As you say, Tolkien had already established the origins of Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Now he had to squeeze Hobbits into the mix somewhere. He does so by making them sort of cousins of Men - a branch of the race known specifically as the 'human' race (as Tolkien tells us in his letters). I think he made them akin to Men because he saw both as purely non-magical beings, unlike Elves and Dwarves. But as far as I know he never tells us exactly how or where the Little Folk came upon the scene. I guess they must always remain just Eru's little secret, that in the end becomes the key ingredient to the fulfillment of his plan.
Selador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #6
Alfirin
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Alfirin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Isn't it also interesting how Tolkein makes each of the three "tribes" of hobbits closer to one of the three other major races in ME. The Stoor's are specifically said to be the most "mannish" of hobbits (they even grow beards like men, and are known to somtimes follow the mannish (to hobbits) trait of wearing shoes). Fallowhides are descibes as being tall and willowy for hobbits and well has having a more lyrical poetic nature, this sound a bit elvish. This leaves the Harfoots who I beive are from time to time describled in dwarvish words (they are the shortest of hobbit races squattest and, I beived the most stocky) the practical, no nonsense world view also seems rather dwarvish. (As I recall most of the hobbtion hobbits are mostly Harfoot, whith Frodo and the other hobbit "Gentry" having strong Fallowhide blood ties.)
Alfirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2008, 05:00 PM   #7
Selador
Pile O'Bones
 
Selador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Selador has just left Hobbiton.
Yes, Alfirin, That is very interesting. Also, Tolkien writes that the "Harfoots had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times", "The Stoors...were less shy of Men", and "The Fallohides...were more friendly with Elves."

I don't know what all that implies, but it is intriguing.
Selador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2008, 05:29 PM   #8
Tuor in Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,651
Tuor in Gondolin has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via Yahoo to Tuor in Gondolin
As far as wild speculation goes, how about the
elusive Blue Wizards exerting some protective
care and cautionary warnings to stayin the area
of middle Middle-earth until Second Age dustups had
been resolved?
__________________
The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin.
Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'
Tuor in Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2008, 07:05 PM   #9
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Tuor in Gondolin

Quote:
As far as wild speculation goes, how about the
elusive Blue Wizards exerting some protective
care and cautionary warnings to stayin the area
of middle Middle-earth until Second Age dustups had
been resolved?
I'm afraid I don't see any connection between the Blue Wizards and Hobbits, but at any rate the Istari were not present in ME during the Second Age. It wasn't until approximately 1000 years of the Third Age had passed that they arrived.
Also, the actions of the Blue were pretty much a mystery, and I'm not sure what you refer to by "protective care" and "cautionary warnings".
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:46 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.