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Old 10-11-2010, 02:38 PM   #1
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Charles Manson did not murder Boromir...

But who did?

Charles Manson, if you don't know the name, was found guilty in the 60's for the horrendous murders of the Tate/LiaBianca families. He did not use a knife, a gun or any other physical weapon to commit this crime. Yet he was found to be responsible and has been imprisoned since.

Why?

In short, Manson, much like Saruman, convinced his sick followers to carry out the foul deed. He was then held responsible due to something called the 'joint-responsibility rule,' meaning that he, as a part of the conspiracy to commit murder, was just as responsible as those who physically participated in the crime.

So, with that *legal* thought in mind (you can leave all the gory stuff behind), we come upon a new case, the case of the murder of the Steward's son.

As we all know, the Uruks shot Boromir with more than the recommended daily allowance of arrows. So, yes, they killed him. But Saruman sent the Uruks to retrieve the Halflings, and to kill all others (it's interesting that the only 'other' is Boromir). So this white wizard too is at fault.

We could list Elrond for letting Boromir into the Nine, and even Denethor for sending his son north.

But to someone as suspicious as myself, these culprits are too obvious, and so may be just the patsies/scapegoats for the person/persons/being ultimately responsible.

This thought to look deeper came when I last heard these words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir
For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me.
Who sent this dream? And why, when the 'message' had already been sent to/received by Faramir (in multiplicate), was there a need to send it once - once! - to Boromir, who, without this event, could make no claim on the northern journey.*

I conclude that it is this dream sender who is responsible for Boromir's death.


( * Yes, Boromir would most probably have died in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, if not sooner. Yet he would have died freely, not pushed/manipulated into his death by some invisible force.)
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:55 PM   #2
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I conclude that it is this dream sender who is responsible for Boromir's death.
Obviously you mean Tolkien is responsible, right, since he set up the scenario and prompted the dream sender.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:08 PM   #3
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Obviously you mean Tolkien is responsible, right, since he set up the scenario and prompted the dream sender.
Not at all, as we don't know who put the idea in his head in the first place!

But I'm limiting my links to causality to Middle Earth and all realms above and below.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:55 PM   #4
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It would have been difficult to convict Saruman of Boromir's murder.

1) There was a war going on. Leaders may be tried on atrocity charges, but not necessarily on combat deaths. Boromir, being a war captain of Gondor, could certainly be termed as a direct combatant, or at least a soldier of a hostile country.

2) The Orcs were attempting to capture, not kill, the Hobbits. Boromir's violent interference against soldiers of an enemy state led to their retaliation and his death. There is no direct proof (written orders) that show conclusively that Saruman ordered the deaths of Fellowship members (except the Hobbits), and any conversation entered as evidence would amount to hearsay, as the Orcs carrying out the mission were most likely all dead, killed by the Rohirrim outside of Fangorn.

3) There is no direct evidence that all the Orcs involved in Boromir's combat death were directly reporting to Saruman alone. There is ample evidence that shows there were Orcs reporting to Saruman and Orcs reporting to Sauron in the same vicinity along the Anduin.

A good lawyer would get him off on that charge easily. Saruman would however face multiple charges regarding the burning of the Westfold, Hobbitnapping and other nefarious deeds.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:48 AM   #5
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I suggest you at least take Gandalf in for questioning... what about that stuff he did as Olorin with dreams and visions inspiring folk to great deeds?
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:11 AM   #6
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If we're looking for someone to fault can't it be said Aragorn had a hand in Boromir's death? He's the one who insisted Boromir go after the two younger Hobbits. He could have just sent Boromir to a time-out for chasing off Frodo, but he sent him into the fray.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:31 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
It would have been difficult to convict Saruman of Boromir's murder.
Only if the trial stayed with the facts...

Quote:
1) There was a war going on. Leaders may be tried on atrocity charges, but not necessarily on combat deaths. Boromir, being a war captain of Gondor, could certainly be termed as a direct combatant, or at least a soldier of a hostile country.
But he (Boromir) was from Gondor, which Saruman did not cite in his declaration of war. Also, Boromir was in Rohan.

Quote:
2) The Orcs were attempting to capture, not kill, the Hobbits. Boromir's violent interference against soldiers of an enemy state led to their retaliation and his death. There is no direct proof (written orders) that show conclusively that Saruman ordered the deaths of Fellowship members (except the Hobbits), and any conversation entered as evidence would amount to hearsay, as the Orcs carrying out the mission were most likely all dead, killed by the Rohirrim outside of Fangorn.
I have it all on DVD!

Quote:
3) There is no direct evidence that all the Orcs involved in Boromir's combat death were directly reporting to Saruman alone. There is ample evidence that shows there were Orcs reporting to Saruman and Orcs reporting to Sauron in the same vicinity along the Anduin.
After the crime, the orcs head west, not east, and I'd be sure to mention that.

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A good lawyer would get him off on that charge easily. Saruman would however face multiple charges regarding the burning of the Westfold, Hobbitnapping and other nefarious deeds.
Bring out the spikey wheel!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
I suggest you at least take Gandalf in for questioning... what about that stuff he did as Olorin with dreams and visions inspiring folk to great deeds?
But Gandalf, in this case, isn't the dream weaver - and I don't think that Gandalf was in Gondor when Boromir dreamed his fateful dream.

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Originally Posted by Kitanna
If we're looking for someone to fault can't it be said Aragorn had a hand in Boromir's death? He's the one who insisted Boromir go after the two younger Hobbits. He could have just sent Boromir to a time-out for chasing off Frodo, but he sent him into the fray.
Agreed, though Aragorn didn't know that the orcs would be more attracted to Merry and Pippin than Frodo or Sam. If Aragorn *was* that insightful, surely he wouldn't have left Frodo go off on his own in the first place.

Thank you for your replies. But the question remains: who is the dream weaver?
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:12 AM   #8
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But Gandalf, in this case, isn't the dream weaver - and I don't think that Gandalf was in Gondor when Boromir dreamed his fateful dream.
Would he have had to have been? Is wizard with pointy stick and stuff... and I bet he weighs more than a duck.

BURN HIM!!!!


Sorry wrong fillum....
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:52 PM   #9
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Thank you for your replies. But the question remains: who is the dream weaver?
Morpheus? If he was good enough for the Greeks, certainly he's good enough to harass the boys of Gondor.

Who in Middle Earth has the power to send off dreams?
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Old 10-15-2010, 08:15 AM   #10
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Thank you for your replies. But the question remains: who is the dream weaver?

Same person who sent Merry his curious barrow dream.
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Old 10-18-2010, 08:38 PM   #11
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Thank you for your replies. But the question remains: who is the dream weaver?
Gary Wright.
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