Were hobbits originally entwives? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kidd2323 · 03-25-2002, 05:45 PM

Just a thought, but I perusing thru The Return of the Shadow Part One last night when a thought crossed my mind that Hobbits, with there close relationship to the earth and their love of gardens and flowers and other horticulture,not to mention their ability to get lost in nature, could possibly be a distant relative to the long-lost entwives. Remember Treebeard had no clue what they could look like after such a long time and his last recollection of them was they weere bent with their toils and sorrows. Also, Smeagol's family came from a land not far from the Brown Lands below Mirkwood (the last know abode of the entwives according to Treebeard)and was a Matriarical society. So is it possible that Hobbits could be an evolved ancesstor of the entwives (with a hint of man genes too)?

Tigerlily Gamgee · 03-25-2002, 06:04 PM

I haven't read that book yet, but the Hobbits seem too small to be close to Ent-wives. But, did Tolkien ever say where the Hobbits came from?

Kidd2323 · 03-25-2002, 06:14 PM

Tolkien is never clear as to where exactly hobbits came from other than saying (paraphasing here) "closer to men than elves they are." And nowhere in the Ainulindale, Valaquenta, nor the Quenta Silmarillion are hobbits mentioned. Even more, the Ents and Entwives are not mentioned. Is this because they (hobbits, ents, and entwives)are not original creatures created in the Music of the Ainur thus placing them on a lower status in the free peoples of Middle-Earth and leading to the lack of their inclusion in the Ents great lists? Why? Because when the list were created there weren't hobbits but instead entwives?

Ahanarion · 03-25-2002, 06:53 PM

I always thought that hobbits were descended from men that lived near the vales of Anduin. That was the area hobbit's moved from to Eriador some of the stoors stayed behind forming Smeagols people. I also don't think that entwives and men are geneticaly incompatible.

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ]

Mirkgirl · 03-25-2002, 07:03 PM

I doubt that /I see the Hobbits like some Valar/or amybe even Maiar/ creative game result.....

But I also believe that most entwives where killed in war and so on, but the few left have something to do with the hobbits in ancient times, gave them skills, and then got forgotten by the hobbits and became treeish creatures, who could walk, but did that rarely, and where just a subject of ale-talk at the Green Dragon.....

Ahanarion · 03-25-2002, 07:15 PM

I would agree that early in they're existance they could have had contact with the entwives. That could also explain they're love of nature.

Ahanarion · 03-25-2002, 07:17 PM

I'm a Wight Booyah!

Mhoram · 03-25-2002, 10:20 PM

Could Jerry Seinfield be the Tooth Fairy?

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-25-2002, 11:10 PM

Actually, Professor Tolkien does say what Hobbits were. He very plainly calls them Men several places and says quite specifically that they are, indeed, human.

Quote:

Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar(especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet. Their height at the periods concerned was usually more than three feet for men, though very few ever exceeded three foot six; women seldom exceeded three feet. They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men, but evidently more numerous and adaptable to different modes of life and habitat than the Drûgs, and when they are first encountered in the histories already showed divergences in colouring, stature, and build, and in their ways of life and preferences for different types of country to dwell in.

'Of Dwarves and Men', Peoples of Middle Earth, HoME vol XII

Quote:

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Fok and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals). and abnormally, for humans. free from ambition or greed of wealth.

Footnote to a letter to Milton Waldman, 1951

Quote:

... my 'hobbits' were in any case of dissimilar sort, a diminutive branch of the human race.

Letter to Robert Lancelyn Green, 1971

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

obloquy · 03-25-2002, 11:22 PM

Tolkien has nothing on the majority of these people, Bruce. It was a noble effort, though.

Kalimac · 03-26-2002, 12:40 AM

No! No! Not even a chance! I'm sorry, but they're not even close. Not to be rude, but that's like positing that because Gollum and Saruman both lusted after the Ring, that Gollum might somehow be one of Istari (Maybe one of the Blue Wizards, to whom the years would obviously have been less than kind). As Bruce pointed out so thoroughly a post or two ago, hobbits are a subcategory (roughly put) of Men - this is stated numerous times by Tolkien and in fact the hobbits (and men) take it for granted themselves - "Put us after Men" says Merry, when telling Treebeard where to put hobbits in the Old Lists, and both of them see it as the right thing to do. (Bree, where the hobbits and "Big People" live together amicably, is an example of how fundamentally similar they are; try to imagine Ents and Men sharing a village....quite). They both eat "man-food" they share language, tastes, culture, EVERYTHING except average height. The hobbits are more stay-at-home and peaceful, but that's as much a product of their comfortable land as it is of them.

Treebeard (who of all creatures you'd think would realize it if the hobbits had anything entish about them) does say that the Shire sounds like the sort of land that the Entwives might like, but all he means is that the Wives and the hobbits both share a taste for comfortable lands and gardening; hardly proof of a common genetic ancestry. Besides, how would the Entwives have given birth to hobbits? Apart from the dubious genetics of the business, how would they *do* it? Budding? Dropping seeds in the ground which would sprout up and produce a fully formed little man-like creature? That's something you'd find in "The Flower Fairies" not Tolkien.

Amarinth · 03-26-2002, 06:51 AM

...and don't forget, hobbits DIE, and i mean they don't have to be chopped off to...just fooling around [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

VanimaEdhel · 03-26-2002, 01:31 PM

When I first read the book, I thought that maybe they'd get AROUND to solving that and that maybe the forest that in the beginning the hobbits said felt like it was alive was going to be where they were. Maybe Tolkien was opening the door for if he ever wrote a book to solve that mystery.

No, I don't think hobbits are entwives. I mostly think this because

They are too short
There are MALE hobbits and they managed to reproduce
They are closely related to humans
Many more reasons: I'm just to lazy to think of them!

Haha: And about the Jerry Seinfeld being the tooth fairy thing: I don't know! I'll have to check sometime! Sadly, I've lost all my baby teeth, but maybe I can catch him/her in the act with my friend's younger brother! lol [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] haha...I'm jk: you know that, right?

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-26-2002, 02:25 PM

You have to give Kid2323 some credit for originality and creativity.

What I was thinking, this is really a tangent, was perhaps the Hobbits in Bree and the Shire aren't the only Hobbits in existence. The Stoors (Gollum's folk) were originally on the Anduin, near the entwives, and it stands to reason they had some truck such orderly, peaceful.. er..trees. Since Gollum's ancestoral folk are long gone as are the Entwives, since all the lands to the West were well explored, it stands to reason that out East was the direction the Entwives went, and likely some of the Stoors went with them, or at least in the same general direction. Since Hobbits are of the the same kindred as Men, and Men originally came from the east, no doubt Hobbits did as well. There could be whole, comfortable, unknown (and as usual, overlooked) settlements of Stoors and perhaps even Fallohidish Hobbits.

So the secret of the Entwives is with the Hobbits. Just not in the Shire.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Morsul the Dark · 02-13-2006, 11:11 AM

Well now wait just a second here there is an interesting concept you forgot to mention here that is although improbrable not impossible especially in tolien's world

spirits. Entwives were far more subduedc then ents correct?
Well thiink of this little odd thing hindu monks(dont worry im going somewhere) meditate and claim to have out of body experiences. so is it possible in a bit of a meditative state entwife spirits inhabited these strange little men?

common denominators:

1.both love peace quiet order
2.both love nature
3.(a bit odd) both love long lists...(familt history lists of the living creatures so forth)

now ent-wives and hobbits both arent on treebeards list why because they werent around before the entwives went away.

now i just find it odd the EW would go away for no reason and hobbits would appear for no reason.

now obvioulsy we have no specific dates we could however make a few timelines of key events to get closer to a supposed time of hobbit creation and entwife disappearance to compare the two.

Elu Ancalime · 02-13-2006, 04:10 PM

I dont think so.

However, they do share similar interests.

They both had a love (and career really) of Ag. And I know somewhere it stated the 'entwives taught men and hobbits.
________
BUY DIGITAL SCALE

03-25-2002, 05:45 PM	#1
Kidd2323 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 44	Were hobbits originally entwives? Just a thought, but I perusing thru The Return of the Shadow Part One last night when a thought crossed my mind that Hobbits, with there close relationship to the earth and their love of gardens and flowers and other horticulture,not to mention their ability to get lost in nature, could possibly be a distant relative to the long-lost entwives. Remember Treebeard had no clue what they could look like after such a long time and his last recollection of them was they weere bent with their toils and sorrows. Also, Smeagol's family came from a land not far from the Brown Lands below Mirkwood (the last know abode of the entwives according to Treebeard)and was a Matriarical society. So is it possible that Hobbits could be an evolved ancesstor of the entwives (with a hint of man genes too)? __________________ "I wish I could go all the way with you to Rivendell, Mr. Frodo, and see Mr. Bilbo," said Sam. "And yet the only place I really want to be in is here. I am that torn in two." "Poor Sam! It will feel like that, I am afraid. " said Frodo. "But you will be healed. You were meant to be solid and whole, and you will be."

03-25-2002, 06:04 PM	#2
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,056	I haven't read that book yet, but the Hobbits seem too small to be close to Ent-wives. But, did Tolkien ever say where the Hobbits came from? __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

03-25-2002, 06:14 PM	#3
Kidd2323 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 44	Tolkien is never clear as to where exactly hobbits came from other than saying (paraphasing here) "closer to men than elves they are." And nowhere in the Ainulindale, Valaquenta, nor the Quenta Silmarillion are hobbits mentioned. Even more, the Ents and Entwives are not mentioned. Is this because they (hobbits, ents, and entwives)are not original creatures created in the Music of the Ainur thus placing them on a lower status in the free peoples of Middle-Earth and leading to the lack of their inclusion in the Ents great lists? Why? Because when the list were created there weren't hobbits but instead entwives? __________________ "I wish I could go all the way with you to Rivendell, Mr. Frodo, and see Mr. Bilbo," said Sam. "And yet the only place I really want to be in is here. I am that torn in two." "Poor Sam! It will feel like that, I am afraid. " said Frodo. "But you will be healed. You were meant to be solid and whole, and you will be."

03-25-2002, 06:53 PM	#4
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	I always thought that hobbits were descended from men that lived near the vales of Anduin. That was the area hobbit's moved from to Eriador some of the stoors stayed behind forming Smeagols people. I also don't think that entwives and men are geneticaly incompatible. [ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ] __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-25-2002, 07:03 PM	#5
Mirkgirl Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 84	I doubt that /I see the Hobbits like some Valar/or amybe even Maiar/ creative game result..... But I also believe that most entwives where killed in war and so on, but the few left have something to do with the hobbits in ancient times, gave them skills, and then got forgotten by the hobbits and became treeish creatures, who could walk, but did that rarely, and where just a subject of ale-talk at the Green Dragon..... __________________ "Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."

03-25-2002, 07:15 PM	#6
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	I would agree that early in they're existance they could have had contact with the entwives. That could also explain they're love of nature. __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-25-2002, 07:17 PM	#7
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	I'm a Wight Booyah! __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-25-2002, 10:20 PM	#8
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Could Jerry Seinfield be the Tooth Fairy?

03-25-2002, 11:22 PM	#10
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	Tolkien has nothing on the majority of these people, Bruce. It was a noble effort, though.

03-26-2002, 12:40 AM	#11
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	No! No! Not even a chance! I'm sorry, but they're not even close. Not to be rude, but that's like positing that because Gollum and Saruman both lusted after the Ring, that Gollum might somehow be one of Istari (Maybe one of the Blue Wizards, to whom the years would obviously have been less than kind). As Bruce pointed out so thoroughly a post or two ago, hobbits are a subcategory (roughly put) of Men - this is stated numerous times by Tolkien and in fact the hobbits (and men) take it for granted themselves - "Put us after Men" says Merry, when telling Treebeard where to put hobbits in the Old Lists, and both of them see it as the right thing to do. (Bree, where the hobbits and "Big People" live together amicably, is an example of how fundamentally similar they are; try to imagine Ents and Men sharing a village....quite). They both eat "man-food" they share language, tastes, culture, EVERYTHING except average height. The hobbits are more stay-at-home and peaceful, but that's as much a product of their comfortable land as it is of them. Treebeard (who of all creatures you'd think would realize it if the hobbits had anything entish about them) does say that the Shire sounds like the sort of land that the Entwives might like, but all he means is that the Wives and the hobbits both share a taste for comfortable lands and gardening; hardly proof of a common genetic ancestry. Besides, how would the Entwives have given birth to hobbits? Apart from the dubious genetics of the business, how would they do it? Budding? Dropping seeds in the ground which would sprout up and produce a fully formed little man-like creature? That's something you'd find in "The Flower Fairies" not Tolkien. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-26-2002, 06:51 AM	#12
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	...and don't forget, hobbits DIE, and i mean they don't have to be chopped off to...just fooling around [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] --------------------------------------------- every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

03-26-2002, 01:31 PM	#13
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,473	When I first read the book, I thought that maybe they'd get AROUND to solving that and that maybe the forest that in the beginning the hobbits said felt like it was alive was going to be where they were. Maybe Tolkien was opening the door for if he ever wrote a book to solve that mystery. No, I don't think hobbits are entwives. I mostly think this because They are too short There are MALE hobbits and they managed to reproduce They are closely related to humans Many more reasons: I'm just to lazy to think of them! Haha: And about the Jerry Seinfeld being the tooth fairy thing: I don't know! I'll have to check sometime! Sadly, I've lost all my baby teeth, but maybe I can catch him/her in the act with my friend's younger brother! lol [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] haha...I'm jk: you know that, right? __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 02:25 PM	#14
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	You have to give Kid2323 some credit for originality and creativity. What I was thinking, this is really a tangent, was perhaps the Hobbits in Bree and the Shire aren't the only Hobbits in existence. The Stoors (Gollum's folk) were originally on the Anduin, near the entwives, and it stands to reason they had some truck such orderly, peaceful.. er..trees. Since Gollum's ancestoral folk are long gone as are the Entwives, since all the lands to the West were well explored, it stands to reason that out East was the direction the Entwives went, and likely some of the Stoors went with them, or at least in the same general direction. Since Hobbits are of the the same kindred as Men, and Men originally came from the east, no doubt Hobbits did as well. There could be whole, comfortable, unknown (and as usual, overlooked) settlements of Stoors and perhaps even Fallohidish Hobbits. So the secret of the Entwives is with the Hobbits. Just not in the Shire. [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

02-13-2006, 11:11 AM	#15
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,502	Well now wait just a second here there is an interesting concept you forgot to mention here that is although improbrable not impossible especially in tolien's world spirits. Entwives were far more subduedc then ents correct? Well thiink of this little odd thing hindu monks(dont worry im going somewhere) meditate and claim to have out of body experiences. so is it possible in a bit of a meditative state entwife spirits inhabited these strange little men? common denominators: 1.both love peace quiet order 2.both love nature 3.(a bit odd) both love long lists...(familt history lists of the living creatures so forth) now ent-wives and hobbits both arent on treebeards list why because they werent around before the entwives went away. now i just find it odd the EW would go away for no reason and hobbits would appear for no reason. now obvioulsy we have no specific dates we could however make a few timelines of key events to get closer to a supposed time of hobbit creation and entwife disappearance to compare the two. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

02-13-2006, 04:10 PM	#16
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 479	Um.... I dont think so. However, they do share similar interests. They both had a love (and career really) of Ag. And I know somewhere it stated the 'entwives taught men and hobbits. ________ BUY DIGITAL SCALE Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:00 PM.