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Old 01-27-2013, 03:15 PM   #1
cellurdur
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The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Whilst looking at a checking up on a few other facts I had to look into the chapter on Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales. It seems very hard to come to a concrete history of the pair.

The first and easiest to fit into the Legendarium is the story that Galadriel was a Noldorin princess and Celeborn a Sindarin prince, but kin through the brothers Olwe and Elmo, their respective grandfathers. galadriel in this version of events drives the Noldor to rebel and receives the ban. She is not part of the kin slaying and as a relative of Thingol is able to enter Doriath where she marries Celeborn. The two remain here until Feanor's sons sack Doriath and they then escape to the Havens.

However, Tolkien's last words on the subject and written shortly before his death give us a completely different story. In this version Galadriel's ancestry remains the same, but Celeborn is now also the grandson of Olwe. They both leave Middle Earth together and are only banned, because they left without permission. In this version of events both take part in the defence of the Teleri at the kin slaying. When they arrive in Middle Earth neither take part in the war against Morgoth and instead move east over the Blue Mountains.

In the case of Galadriel not much is publish about her earlier days and her story can be altered with little trouble. However, there is real trouble in the case of Celeborn. How can he be the grandson of Olwe? If this was the case then he and Galadriel would be first cousins and forbidden from marriage. It would also contradict several statements in Lord of the Rings. So how can we make this fit? Do we have to mix and match the two stories? Keeping Galadriel's sole departure from Valinor but having Celeborn remain a Sindar prince? Also would the Teleri Celeborn have such strong feelings against the dwarves for the sack of Doriath if he was not from there?

Then there is the problem of the Second Age. In the early version Galadriel and Celeborn are the Lord and Lady of Eregion before Sauron urges Celebrimbor's rebellion. Then Galadriel enters Lorien for the first time, before eventually moving to Imladris with Celeborn. In this version she leaves her son Amroth to rule. It is certain that Amroth is no longer he son and a late version of Amroth's story has him ruling Lorien until the days of Earnil.

Consequently we are forced to reject a significant part of this. Celeborn is said to have lived in Lindon with Galadriel in part of the Second Age, but they still must have lived with Elrond for some part of the Second Age or how else could Elrond fall for Celebrian?

Lastly there is the question of the Elessar. For me the only version that seems to fit with the story is the first case. Where Gandalf brings the stone back from Earendil. In this version Galadriel keeps her nobility and Celebrimbor is not said to be Noldor elf from Gondolin. It foreshadows her giving it to Elrond and it shows she had the favour of the Valar.

What does anyone else make of the story. Is is possible to somehow patch the pieces together to make a coherent history?
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:55 PM   #2
Galin
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For me there is no question that Galadriel was a leader of the Exiles and was banned at the end of the First Age from returning West. Along with Celeborn being Sindarin, this was the version Tolkien himself published in The Road Goes Ever On -- and there is no indication that JRRT was considering this fact, if he even rememered it, when he wrote the late adumbrated tale.

Christopher Tolkien seems to say that Galadriel's history could be radically changed as the Silmarillion was not published, and although he next notes (if I recall correctly) 'on the other hand' and brings up RGEO, he doesn't seem to shine a light on Galadriel's published history along with Celeborn being a Sindarin Elf (which had also been stated in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings).

At least at this point in his commentary anyway, he seems to point out the problems with Celeborn and RGEO, but not with Galadriel and RGEO.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:37 PM   #3
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Lastly there is the question of the Elessar. For me the only version that seems to fit with the story is the first case. Where Gandalf brings the stone back from Earendil. In this version Galadriel keeps her nobility and Celebrimbor is not said to be Noldor elf from Gondolin. It foreshadows her giving it to Elrond and it shows she had the favour of the Valar.
Not that you said otherwise, but both these versions are meant to be internal in my opinion; that is, both versions were told or written in Middle-earth -- as compared to the external perspective of Tolkien working on two different versions to decide for himself which one was to be the story told within Middle-earth (rejecting the other one).

That said I find that both versions carry 'problematic' ideas, to my mind a notable one in the Gandalf scenario being that by this time Galadriel can already employ Nenya.


In the second scenario, at least with respect to the matter of Celebrimbor anyway: since it seems the case that Celebrimbor was not yet imagined as a Feanorean at this point, an easy fix in my opinion would be to go back to Enerdhil as the smith of Gondolin.

It's attested, although yes, from an external perspective the note at the end of the text revises Enerdhil to Celebrimbor, but when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean I think it very likely that the Smith of Gondolin was to receive a different name...

... so why not back to Enerdhil?
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:11 AM   #4
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In the case of the Elessar you make a good point that by the time Gandalf would have arrived, Galadriel would already have been able to use Nenya. I was thinking this could be changed, by making Glorfindel the one, who gives her the stone, but even that does not work, because Galadriel did not move into the Lorien permanently until the death of Amroth.

In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.

It really is hard to make both work, I will address the issue more fully when I have am home.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:52 AM   #5
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Yes, this is a difficult chapter. I think Cellurdurs recollection of the earlier story put very simple. In my opinion the story of Galadriel and Celeborn was very fluent and changed bit by bit. But as Cellurdur I am always searching for the 'truth' behind the many versions. In my case I am a combiner, that means I would only skip information when it is clearly gainsaid by statement in a source of higher relevance (however one does define this relevance). Based on this for me the story of Galadriel and Celeborn runs thus:
Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin. Since it is said that Celeborn was the son of Galadon son of Elmo and the grandson of Olwe brother of Elmo, we know that the wifes of Olwe and Elmo must have been not akin and that the wife of Galadon was the daughter of Olwe.
The mother Galadriel, Earwen, was also a daughter of Olwe. Therefore for the marriage to possible Galadriels father, Finarfin, and Celeborns father, Amdir, must be not akin at all. This is true, as far as we know.
So both marriages of first cousins in this line are possible.
If Celeborn is now to be sailing back from Valinor with Galadriel, this means that Olwe and Elmo had their children very early and that Celeborn was a good deal older then Galadriel. Since we know that Elmo and Galadon stayed in Beleriand when Olwe sailed west, Celeborn must have been born in Beleriand before the depature of the Teleri and sailed with his grandfather Olwe while his parents stayed in Beleriand.
More complex becomes the situation by the fact that we have in addition to Celeborn further children of Galadon and further names for him. For me Galadon, Malgalad and Amdr are different names for the same person. Thus also Galathil and Amroth become one and same person, while Nimloth must be a daughter of Galadon/Malgald/Amdr and a sister (not a nice) of Celeborn.

Story line:

Valian Year 1105: Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe return from Valinor and lead the Quendi leave Cuivienen.
VY 1115: Vanyar and Noldor reach Falas and the Noldor settle down in Neldoreth.
VY 1128: The Teleri come over the Ered Luin and settle in Thargelion.
VY 1130: Elwe is lost in Nan Elmoth.
VY 1132: Vanyar and Noldor leave Beleriand for Valinor. Most of the Teleri settle at the mouth of Sirion and take Olwe as king.
VY 1135: About this time Olwe's first daughter and Elmos son Galadon/Malgalad/Amdr must have been born in Beleriand.
VY 1140: About this time Amdr takes Olwe's daughter as wife.
VY 1141: About this time Galathil/Amroth is born.
VY 1146: About this time Celeborn is born.
VY 1149: Ulmo comes back to Beleriand.
VY 1150: The Teleri leave Beleriand. Olwe and his grandson Celeborn are transported on Tol Eressea. Elmo, Amdr, his wife and Amroth stay behind in search of Elwe.
VY 1151: The voyage of the Teleri is brought to a halt in sight of Valinor and they stay on Tol Eressea.
VY 1152: Elwe and Melian come out of Nan Elmoth and build Doriath. Elmo, Amdr and Amroth are with them.
VY 1161: The Teleri came at least to Valinor and settle at the coast of Eldamar.
VY 1230: Finarfin are born in Valinor.
VY 1280: Finarfin marriages Earwen daughter of Olwe.
VY 1380: about this time Galadriel is born.
VY 1492: About this time Galadriel goes to Aqualonde and meets Celeborn. Both plan to sail back to Middle-Earth.
VY 1495: First Kinslaying at Aqualonde. Galadriel and Celeborn fight against the Noldor and rescue their ship.
VY 1496: Galadriel and Celeborn leave Valinor without permission and thus come under the ban.
VY 1497: The First Battle in Beleriand. Galadriel and Celeborn reach Birthombar. Amdr leaves with Amroth and Nimloth Doriath and goes to Ossiriand.

20 First Age: Mereth Aderthad. Probably about this time Galadriel goes with her brother Finrod to Tol Sirion, while Celeborn joins his family in Ossiriand.
52 FA: Galadriel and Finrod visit Menegroth and Galadriel stays there.
102 FA: Nargothrond is build and Galadriel stays there for a time. When she returns to Doriath she meets there again Celeborn.
472 FA: Galadriel leaves Beleriand and settles down at Nenuial. Celeborn possibly goes back to Ossiriand.
497 FA: Dior marriages Nimloth.
503 FA: Thingol is slain and Doriath falls for the first time.
504 FA: Dior and Nimloth go to Doriath. Celeborn is probably with them.
507 FA: Downfall of Doriath, Dior is slain. Nimloth and her Daugther Elwing fly back to Ossiriand with the help of Celeborn.
510 FA: Fall of Gondolin. Nimloth hear about Tours folk heading to the mouth of Sirion and goes their herself with Elwing and a small following of survivors from Doriath. They reach the havens before Tuor.
545 FA - 587 FA: War of Wrath: Beleriand is destroyed and starts to sink. The Elves retreat to Ossirand (South-Lindon) and Thargelion (North-Lindon). Amdr, Amroth and Celeborn cross Ered-Luin and go east. Celeborn joins Galadriel at Nenuial and they become Lord and Lady of Eriador.

1 Second Age: Amdr and Amroth come to Lrien and develop there a realm of the wood-elves.
700 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Eregion and build a realm of Noldor-Elves.
750 SA: Ost-in-Edhil is build.
884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathl and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.
1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lrien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lrien.
1200 SA: Sauron comes to Eregion.
1350 - 1400 SA: Celebrimbor makes himself lord of Eregion. Celeborn stays in Eregion but Galadriel goes to Lorien.
1693 SA: The War of Sauron against Eregion begins. Celebrimbor visits Lorien and gives Galadriel Nenya.
1697 SA: Celeborn makes a sortie and is able to joins Elrond, who has come from Lindon to help in the fight against Sauron. Sauron takes Eregion and slays Celebrimbor. When Sauron attacks Elrond and Celeborn, Galadriel with Elves from Lorien and Durin III. with Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron from behind. Elrond and Celeborn retreat to the north and build Imladris, while the gates of Moria are closed before Sauron approach.
1750 SA: About this time comes Galadriel to Imladris and meets Celeborn. Celebrian is with her and Elrond falls in love with her. Galadriel and Celebron go to Lorien and fortify it against Sauron trying to cross Anduin again.
1800 SA: About this time Galadriel and Celebrian leave Lorien and go to South-Lindon. Celeborn follows later on.
2400 SA: Galadriel and Celeborn visit Lorien again but go then to Imladris. Only short time later they move agian. Together with Celebrian they go to the mouth of Gwathlo and dwell at the place later known as Dol Amroth. Celeborns Neff Amroth does visit them at times and some Elves from Lorien stay with them.
3433 SA: In the Battle of Dargorlad Amdr is slain.

1 Third Age: Amdr son Amroth comes back to Lorien and becomes Lord of Lorien.
109 TA: Elrond marriages Celebrian.
1000 TA: About this time Galadriel and Celeborn come again to Lorien. Galadriel makes long journeys through Rhovanion from the borders of Gondor to the realm of Thranduil in the North-East of Mirkwood.
1100 TA: Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris.
1981 TA: Nain I. slain, the Dwarves leave Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Galadriel and Celeborn come to Lorien and become Lord and Lady of Lorien.
2509 TA: Celebrian is attacked on Redhorn-pass.
2510 TA: Celebrian laves Middle-Earth.
3019 TA: 3 attacks on Lorien are repelled. After the fall of Barad-dr Celeborn crosses Anduin and destroys with the help of Galadriel Dol Guldur. Celeborn makes the south of Mirkwood a part of his realm. Galadriel, Celeborn and Elrond journey to Minas Tirith for the marriage of Arwen and Elessar.
3021 TA: Galadriel and Elrond leave Middle-Earth.

30 Fourth Age: About this time Celeborn leaves Lorien and goes to Imladris.
61 FA: About this time Celeborn and his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir leave Middle-Earth.

Many of the dates are speculative as is of course the complete compilation of events.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:04 AM   #6
cellurdur
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Do you have any evidence that first cousins were allowed to marry if there other parent were not kin? This seems to go against what we know with Maeglin and Idril. Maeglin's father was a Dark Elf related to the Noldor, but Idril's mother was of the Vanyar. In fact Idril was more Vanyar than Noldor.

In the case of Galadriel if we are to accept that Celeborn was the son of Elmo then there is no problem since they would be second cousins and not first.

Also I don't think it is correct to associate Malgalad/Amdir with Galadon. If this was the case they would be close kindred with Elrond and more would be mentioned about this. I find you are unnecessarily shrinking the Sindar royal family and erasing characters. Amdir/Malgalad can easily be a prince of the Sindar without being so closely related to Thingol as to be his great nephew.

As for Nimloth surviving the sack of Doriath, this seems quite unlikely. We never hear from her again. It is perhaps more likely she was killed in the destruction.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:17 AM   #7
Galin
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In the case of Celebrimbor being from Gondolin, I think Tolkien had just forgotten what he had previously wrote. This story is later than the LOTR and there he has Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor. In this version there is still an Enerdhil, but he and Celebrimbor were friends in Gondolin.
I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.


Regarding Findegil's post: that's a lot of work but it seemingly ignores what JRR Tolkien himself published in The Road Goes Ever On about both Galadriel and Celeborn.

I'm sure you have your reasons but to my mind the history here is muddled enough, and while these late variations are certainly interesting, I don't see why they should trump 'authorized' text, especially given that even Tolkien himself notes that late in life his memory was not retentive...

... and this adumbrated tale is about as late as it gets. I really can't see Tolkien's concern with inner consistency, as noted by Christopher Tolkien, allowing him to simply write a notably new history of Galadriel with no suggestion at all that he was aware of the major inconsistency he would be creating with two characters...

... unless he had merely forgotten what he had published versus what he had written.


Not to mention that (in my opinion) he would now have an arguably more difficult explanation before him as to why Celeborn 'from Aman' (if so) remained in Middle-earth for a time when Galadriel sailed (and was seemingly unhappy about this given his words to Aragorn in the book).

Tolkien could explain this somewhow, yes, I mean JRRT was quite inventive... but I note that when he did explain it, the explanation included that Celeborn had never been Over Sea, and would be leaving his long home of Middle-earth.

Last edited by Galin; 01-28-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
I don't think Tolkien forgot, as I think Celebrimbor as a Feanorean was later than the Elessar text, and only entered The Lord of the Rings in the revised edition (it also entered in a change to the text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn as well).

In The Elessar, Celebrimbor is first friends with Enerdhil... but the note at the end makes Celebrimbor the maker of the jool, displacing Enerdhil (which might call into question if Enerdhil was still to be part of the tale at this point). So what I'm suggesting is that since we probably do not have Celebrimbor the Feanorean in Gondolin at all, then the maker of the jool in Gondolin can once again become Enerdhil... and Celebrimbor can make the later one in Eregion.
Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.

Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.

I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.

I agree we can once again insert Enerdhil and have Celebrimbor as the maker of the 2nd Elessar, but I don't think Galadriel's character fits with her portrayal in Tolkien's last vision of her. She is dangerous close to encouraging Celebrimbor to forge the Great Rings in her language and she is still too prideful to accept the council of the Valar.

I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Are the inscriptions on the door of Moria from a the revised edition? Seems incredulous that any Elf of Gondolin would leave place the mark of Feanor above their door unless they were from there.
The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.

Quote:
Christopher Tolkien's language appears to suggest that he believes the text comes after the revision of Celebrimbor's ancestry. Since he says he 'again' appears as an Elf from Gondolin.
I think he means 'again' as this concept had appeared previously in this chapter. In Unfinished Tales when Christopher Tolkien says 'again' he refers the reader back to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C). And in note 7 he uses the word 'reappears', noting again both CG&C and The Elessar. After quoting CG&C, Christopher writes:

Quote:
He reappears as a jewel-smith of Gondolin in the text The Elessar (...); but against the passage in concerning Galadriel and Celeborn just cited my father noted that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Feanor'. Thus in the second edition (1966)...'

Note 7, Of Dwarves And Men
At the beginning of this note, CJRT explains:

Quote:
'The earliest statement on the subject [Celebrimbor] is found in the post Lord of the Rings text Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn.'

And so far I can't find any reference to Celebrimbor being a descendant of Feanor in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings.

Quote:
I tend to go with what it was published unless it was a huge mistake. I think we can all accept that Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin.
Yes Celebrimbor the Feanorean was never in question for me.

I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.


Quote:
I am more inclined to have Glorfindel returning at some point in the 2nd Age replace Gandalf in the text and hand her the Elessar. Glorfindel being from Gondolin would be very aware of it's powers perhaps more so than even Gandalf.
It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.

Last edited by Galin; 01-28-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
The markings on the Door are from the first edition, yes, but see note 7 to Of Dwarves And Men.
I have read it, you are right and I am in agreement.
Quote:
I think any history should work around author-published concepts, as things become very subjective when considering the possibility of what Tolkien intended to do, again, especially given his memory and late texts. JRRT clearly intended to make ros a Beorian word for example, until he realized already published text hindered him.

Would Tolkien have contradicted history (already in print) about Galadriel's role in the Rebellion, she being a rather major character? I don't think so... others might... he did alter that 'Finrod' was her father for example, from the first edition, but we know that for certain because JRRT himself published the revision.

In the end we have author-published text with RGEO, which is a description written in consideration of Galadriel's own words in The Lord of the Rings as well, versus a posthumously published account that never got beyond an adumbrated state and shows no indication that Tolkien was aware he would be dealing with some notable contradictions to history already on public bookshelves, so to speak.

It's also possible that Tolkien intended to 'garble' this chronology a bit -- or rather let's say, perhaps he purposely allows the reader to wonder why Galadriel would not simply use Nenya at this point -- to inject a measure of doubt with respect to this version, although that's pure speculation on my part, admittedly.
Christopher Tolkien had previously mentioned how his father felt bound to things that were in print like he probably would have with Celebrimbor. However, he does mention the problem with Galadriel is philosophical. The Galadriel of the original history is not as noble he wants her to be. She has many faults and unless we choose to believe that she grew greatly due to her suffering then it is hard to make things fit.

I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.

As for why she did not use, Nenya, perhaps it was due to a desire to heal things. The Great Rings had the power to heal the hurts of the world, but their primary power was in preservation. The Elessar seems purely focused on healing the hurts of the world, but even then that does not seem a good enough reason.

There is also the problem that Galadriel said she gave the Elessar to Celebrian, but Celebrian would have been in Imladris before Galadriel took up permanent residence in Lorien.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:02 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Findegil
Kinship: That first cousins are not allowed to marriage is wrong. It would only be forbidden if the parents that were not brethren and/or sister were also akin.
I'm going to have to ask for a citation on that one. The paradigmatic example of the forbidden first cousin relationship is, after all, Idril and Maeglin; and whatever Eol's ancestry (kinsman of Thingol or Tatyarin Avar), there is no suggestion that he is related to Elenwe.

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Old 01-28-2013, 09:31 PM   #12
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I think Findegil is refering to a section of Morgoth's Ring dealing with the reborn fea, although that idea itself (as a mode of reincarnation among Elves) was ultimately rejected.

Quote:
'For the marriages of the Eldar do not take place between close kin (...) By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in a direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers' [these terms had a special meaning among the Eldar: Galin] (...) Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.'

Morgoth's Ring, Laws A, The Later Quenta Silmarillion II
Of Maeglin would be a later work in any case -- or at least Tolkien worked on parts of it very late, but anyway I assume this must be the text Findegil is referring to.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I am still undecided at version of events to go with. For me there is a problem either way. The original version does not fit with the character Galadriel wanted to be, and the newer version fails to fit in with the published history or things around it.
I much prefer the rebel Galadriel. Possibly Tolkien desired to make Galadriel 'unstained' so that she could be better compared to the Virgin Mary (I have seen this argument anyway), but anyway I don't think an unstained Galadriel is a better character, and I see nothing necessarily 'less Christian' (if someone were to point out the arguable importance of Tolkien's faith with respect to the Galadriel matter) about a penitent Galadriel as compared to an unstained one.

Her great test is the One, why not begin with the proud 'young' Galadriel as one of the leaders of the Rebellion? Banned from Aman at the end of the First Age and proudly replying that she had no wish to do so.

To my mind the history of the early 1950s works fine with respect to the Rebellion (and even the Kinslaying, although granted this much could be altered). This version appears in the 1977 Silmarillion (with no mention of any role at Swanhaven), and it agrees well with JRRT's already published accounts.

There is both earlier and later text (compared to the early 1950s) that supports Galadriel and her brothers having no part at Swanhaven, although the earlier text only has Galadriel's 'ultimate brothers' of course, as it pre-dates The Lord of the Rings.

Again, if I recall correctly RGEO didn't reveal anything about Swanhaven, so I would have no great problem with adding Nerwen's defense of the Teleri here (noted in late texts for example)... but not with Celeborn however, as he was back in Beleriand...

... being Sindarin

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Old 01-29-2013, 05:28 AM   #14
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Galin is right that I based the assumption about marriage of first cousin on The History of Middle-Earth; volume X: Morgoth's Ring; part three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: The second Phase; sub-chapter: Laws and Customs among the Eldar. The context is a comment of the Eldar to revelation of the Valar that as children reborn Elves would take up their fromer marriages in the second life. This fact would restrict the family for the reborn child. After commenting that what the Valar said would mean that the reborn would not be a near kin of his former spouse, the text goes on with the passage I would like to give here more fully:
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For the marriages of the Eldar do not take place between 'close kin'. This again is a matter in which they needed no law or instruction, but acted by nature, though they gave reasons for it later, declaring that it was due to the nature of bodies and the processes of generation; but also to the nature of fear. 'For,' they said, 'fear are also akin, and the motions of love between them, as say between a brother and sister, are not of the same kind as those that make the beginning of marriage.' By 'close kin' for this purpose was meant members of one 'house', especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.
It is right that Maeglin is the later text, and the passage as it is given in The Silmarillion; part three: Quenta Silamrillion; chapter 16: Of Maeglin was acording to The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter III: Maeglin unchanged:
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Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms. Yet he did not reveal his heart: and though not all things went as he would he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it, unless it were Idril Celebrindal. For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor. But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.
Here the laws are not elaborated in such detail as before. The stated fact is simply that Idril and Maeglin are to near akin to marriage each other. Taking the laws given before strictly that would indicat that Idril and Maeglin would have to be 'half-brother' and 'half-sister' meaning that Eol and Elenwe would have been brother and sister, which is of course unfeasable. But the text in Of Maeglin does provide a relativation:
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... The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, ...
This does for me indicat that the supposed Middle-Earth internal writter of the text might not be as sure of the laws among the Eldar as he has suggested in the sentence before. And the description of how Idril looked at Maeglins desire for her does fit very well with the statment in Laws and Customs:
Quote:
Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.
As I sayed beofre, I am a combiner.

Posted by Cellurdur:
Quote:
Also I don't think it is correct to associate Malgalad/Amdir with Galadon.
Well, first we have Celeborn as the son of Malgalad/Amdr and as brother of Amroth. Then we have Celeborn as the son of Galadon. You can chose or you can combine. If you chose that Celeborn the son of Galadon, he is no longer the brother Amroth and Amdr will be possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan. If you chose Celeborn to be the son of Amdr, he is himself possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan, which is gainsiad some were in the Apendizes to LotR. If you combine Galadon becomes another name for Malgalad/Amdr.

About Nimloth escape from the sack of Doriath: This is found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V: The Tale of Years:
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506-507. At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
The wife of Dior has as many names as has the father of Celeborn! Here she is called Lindis, earlier she was named Elulin and later Nimloth. (See the year 497 in The Tale of Years and the comments of Christopher Tolkien for a full account of her names.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I am not adamant on my interpretations reached by combination, but at least it is worth seeing if such combining comes to a 'no go' or not. I will have to reread RGEO to refresh what it has to say about Galadriel and the rebellion of the Noldor.

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Old 01-29-2013, 07:25 AM   #15
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
I much prefer the rebel Galadriel. Possibly Tolkien desired to make Galadriel 'unstained' so that she could be better compared to the Virgin Mary (I have seen this argument anyway), but anyway I don't think an unstained Galadriel is a better character, and I see nothing necessarily 'less Christian' (if someone were to point out the arguable importance of Tolkien's faith with respect to the Galadriel matter) about a penitent Galadriel as compared to an unstained one.

Her great test is the One, why not begin with the proud 'young' Galadriel as one of the leaders of the Rebellion? Banned from Aman at the end of the First Age and proudly replying that she had no wish to do so.

To my mind the history of the early 1950s works fine with respect to the Rebellion (and even the Kinslaying, although granted this much could be altered). This version appears in the 1977 Silmarillion (with no mention of any role at Swanhaven), and it agrees well with JRRT's already published accounts.

There is both earlier and later text (compared to the early 1950s) that supports Galadriel and her brothers having no part at Swanhaven, although the earlier text only has Galadriel's 'ultimate brothers' of course, as it pre-dates The Lord of the Rings.

Again, if I recall correctly RGEO didn't reveal anything about Swanhaven, so I would have no great problem with adding Nerwen's defense of the Teleri here (noted in late texts for example)... but not with Celeborn however, as he was back in Beleriand...

... being Sindarin
I too personally think that Tolkien close to the end of his life tried to make his work too Catholic.

On Galadriel, after much thought I think I will go with the prideful, willful Noldor, with a noble spirit we see early.

In my personal cannon I would leave her as one of the leaders of the Rebellion, but have her still fight fiercely to defend the Teleri.

Celeborn will remain a Sindar and they will meet in Doriath. Then it is easier to accept the version of the Elessar in, which Galadriel request Celebrimbor to make it. This fits in with Galadriel and Celebrimbor failing to find the will to destroy the One Ring. It also illustrates the difference between her attitude and Elrond's. Elrond would rather the three have never been made, but Galadriel would rather the One have never been found. Not to mention it displays the difference in their wisdom concerning Sauron. Gil-galad and Elrond did not necessarily perceive that Sauron was evil, but rejected his council. Galadriel perceived that Sauron was not, who he said he was and rejected him personally.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Galin is right that I based the assumption about marriage of first cousin on The History of Middle-Earth; volume X: Morgoth's Ring; part three: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: The second Phase; sub-chapter: Laws and Customs among the Eldar. The context is a comment of the Eldar to revelation of the Valar that as children reborn Elves would take up their fromer marriages in the second life. This fact would restrict the family for the reborn child. After commenting that what the Valar said would mean that the reborn would not be a near kin of his former spouse, the text goes on with the passage I would like to give here more fully:It is right that Maeglin is the later text, and the passage as it is given in The Silmarillion; part three: Quenta Silamrillion; chapter 16: Of Maeglin was acording to The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter III: Maeglin unchanged: Here the laws are not elaborated in such detail as before. The stated fact is simply that Idril and Maeglin are to near akin to marriage each other. Taking the laws given before strictly that would indicat that Idril and Maeglin would have to be 'half-brother' and 'half-sister' meaning that Eol and Elenwe would have been brother and sister, which is of course unfeasable. But the text in Of Maeglin does provide a relativation: This does for me indicat that the supposed Middle-Earth internal writter of the text might not be as sure of the laws among the Eldar as he has suggested in the sentence before. And the description of how Idril looked at Maeglins desire for her does fit very well with the statment in Laws and Customs:
As I sayed beofre, I am a combiner.
I hope you don't take offense to this, but my philosophy is the opposite of yours, so disagree with what you wrote, though I respect your argument.

Tolkien ultimately rejected the idea of Elves being reborn in their offspring and settled on Manwe creating a new body for them. This renders a lot of the argument there against marriage being first cousins pointless.

Then in the Silmarill we have this

For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to.

This is quite strong language. If Galadriel had married her first cousin then why would he have no hope? The writer would be aware that Galadriel had married Celeborn, but he is still adamant that this feeling had never occurred before.

However, the paragraph goes on to describe this as a crooked thing and the work of the kinslaying. This hardly suggest it was accepted.

And however this might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since deemed it: an evil fruit of the kinslaying

I don't think the two can be combined. We have to reject one. To me the Eldar not marrying cousins is vital to the story of Maeglin and Idril. There are no other examples of the Eldar marrying cousins and so will stick with the Eldar forbidding such close relations.
Quote:
Posted by Cellurdur:Well, first we have Celeborn as the son of Malgalad/Amdr and as brother of Amroth. Then we have Celeborn as the son of Galadon. You can chose or you can combine. If you chose that Celeborn the son of Galadon, he is no longer the brother Amroth and Amdr will be possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan. If you chose Celeborn to be the son of Amdr, he is himself possibly unconected to the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo-Clan, which is gainsiad some were in the Apendizes to LotR. If you combine Galadon becomes another name for Malgalad/Amdr.
As I said before I am against combining things. Amroth was also at one point the son of Celeborn. For me some older versions have to be rejected outright.

Celeborn was rejected a long time ago and nothing suggest they were again.

I don't see the need to place Amroth or even Oropher so closely to the line of Thingol or Olwe. There were other Sindar princes not as closely related. In fact I would say if anyone was to be part of the Elwe-Olwe-Elmo line it would be Thranduil. He tries to emulate Doriath and has a strong dislike for dwarves all stemming from the first fall of Doriath.

Celeborn is held in higher esteem and regard than the either Thranduil or Amroth. Celeborn is part of the White Council whilst it can be seen that the other two are not.
Quote:
About Nimloth escape from the sack of Doriath: This is found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume XI: The War of the Jewels; part three: The Wanderings of Hurin and other Writings not forming Part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V: The Tale of Years:The wife of Dior has as many names as has the father of Celeborn! Here she is called Lindis, earlier she was named Elulin and later Nimloth. (See the year 497 in The Tale of Years and the comments of Christopher Tolkien for a full account of her names.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I am not adamant on my interpretations reached by combination, but at least it is worth seeing if such combining comes to a 'no go' or not. I will have to reread RGEO to refresh what it has to say about Galadriel and the rebellion of the Noldor.
The problem with this is that in the later version she outright disappears. At best she would survive the sakc of Doriath only to die in the assault on Sirion. It is inexplainable how she is not mentioned in account of her grandsons; Elrond and Elros. Would she be so quick to abandon them after losing her own sons? Things are less complicated if she dies in Doriath and Elwing is the sole survivor of the family.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:00 AM   #17
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Here are some things I find problematic about the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, especially my post number 4.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showt...6330-Galadriel

If you can read all that and stay awake you might guess that I'm not a combiner myself. Or at least these are the things I found questionable back when I wrote this.

Do I still agree with me?

I can't be bothered to read it all again to find out
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:54 AM   #18
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Back to The Elessar for a moment.

If I recall correctly Hammond and Scull note that according to the Olorin version of the Elessar tale, Galadriel would seem to have neglected her charge in that she herself did not keep the Elessar for Aragorn [Gandalf says that she shall hand the jool on when the time comes, to one named Elessar] -- as, according to the already published text in The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel gave the stone to Celebrian.

Of course she did ultimately 'hand' the Elfstone to Elfstone


And back to the second version, or Celebrimbor version, the seeming chronology puzzles me a bit:

Quote:
Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.'
The giving of the jool to Celebrian now agrees with The Lord of the Rings, but I suppose I should be reading this 'afterwards' to refer to some time 'after' wielding the Elessar, not to after the coming of the Shadow, as...

Quote:
'... but 'the coming of the Shadow to the forest' undoubtedly refers to the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, which in Appendix A...'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Elessar, Unfinished Tales
I mean according to The Lord of the Rings Celebrimbor died in Second Age 1697, and Galadriel must have had Nenya way before the arising of Sauron in Dol Guldur, even if she could not employ it until after the Last Alliance.

Also regarding Nenya as chief of the Three: in The Lord of the Rings Vilya is said to be the mightiest of the Three. I suppose one could try to make a distinction between the words 'mightiest' and 'chief' but again I wonder if Tolkien was not simply writing this draft without checking his previously published statements about the Three.

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Old 01-30-2013, 06:41 AM   #19
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Cellurdur, I have no problem at all if your oppionion in this or any other matter does disagree with mine. That is was a discussion bord is meant for: exchanging different oppionons.

But about Nimloth I have again to gainsay you. The Tale of Years is a late source if not even the latest we have for the end of the First Age. So your argument holds no water that Nimloth does disapear from later sources. And if you are talking about the last chapters of the Later Silmarillion manuscript that Tolkien did correct at a few points late in his life, then I have to say that many persons and detaisl of the story are missing from that without being rejected.
But anyway I agree that she was very probably slain by the Feanorians during the attack on the Havens of Sirion.

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:15 AM   #20
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884 - 910 SA: Tar-Aldarion makes many long voyages to Middle-Earth. He sails up Gwathl and meets with Galadriel. He gives Gil-galad nuts of the Mallorn. But since these do not grow well in Lindon Gil-galad gives them to Galadriel.

1000 SA: Galadriel does make contact with Lrien, which is slowly sindarized due to the migration of Elves from Eregion. Galadriel does plant the Mallorns in Lrien.
Perhaps not unexpectedly, considering my comments about Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn, I also have to question Tolkien a bit on his 'revised' history of the mallorn trees. JRRT describes that 'under her power' [Galadriel's power of course] the mallorn trees grew and flourished in Lorien.

OK but wasn't she powerful in Eregion too

Especially as in your scenario (following Tolkien's in CG&C), Galadriel was founder and ruler of Eregion (although again, I think this was rejected myself), so why plant the trees in Lorien rather than Eregion? I think it's clear enough that Tolkien's later view was that Galadriel did not take up Lorien as a permanent home until Third Age 1981, so she would have had chances to grow the trees elsewhere in my opinion.

But that said, given the description of Cerin Amroth, Lorien seemingly had mallorn trees before Galadriel and Celeborn took up rule there in any case (after Amroth was lost). So yes, if we agree on that, Nerwen 'must' have planted them before she 'moved in' as ruler, so to speak.

Tolkien could have explained things I guess, but I think the original idea was that these golden trees grew naturally in Lorien, making the realm unique, and JRRT only later tried to give them a 'Western' origin (Numenor, Tol Eressea), while connecting them to the power of Galadriel.

I mean even Gil-galad could not get them to flourish in Lindon, a more Western land than Lorien, but Galadriel could.


Once Eregion fell, obviously that would take care of that. Yet we still have Galadriel in Imladris for 'many years' in the Third Age for example, before the loss of Amroth [Unfinished Tales, Galadriel and Celeborn go to Imladris after their sojourn in Rhovanion]. And in one of Tolkien's own scenarios at least, he puts Galadriel in Lindon after Eregion falls, where Celeborn eventually rejoins her.

Again, Tolkien is creative enough to supply reasons for why Galadriel plants the trees East of the Misty Mountains on her visits to Lothlorien, but on the other hand I wonder if the original scenario wasn't easier?

Or not?
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:22 PM   #21
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Again, Tolkien is creative enough to supply reasons for why Galadriel plants the trees East of the Misty Mountains on her visits to Lothlorien, but on the other hand I wonder if the original scenario wasn't easier?
Or perhaps she was waiting until she could act through her agent, Samwise?
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:26 PM   #22
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Regarding the question about why would Galadriel let Sauron enter Eregion if she was the ruler, I guess it depends on what version of Galadriel we accept.

I have always found it quite telling that in the Lord of the Rings, Elrond wishes that even the 3 had never been made, but Galadriel only wishes that the One Ring had not been made or at least never been found.

Sauron found their weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. Gilgalad repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond. But at Eregion great work began and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).-Letter 131

This is dangerous close to what Galadriel is suggest to Celebrimbor in the Unfinished Tales, if we accept Celebrimbor as the maker.

'What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native home was Aman the Blessed. Here I am mightier.'
'What would you do then' said Celebrimbor
'I should have trees and grass about me that do not die-here in a land that is mine,' she answered.


It seems to me that Galadriel may have rejected Sauron, but she was still drawn to his offer. Her gift was in reading people's intentions. She may have seen that Sauron was hiding his malice, but none the less she desired what he had to offer.

Again she alone of the Wise wished for the One Ring to fall into her possession. Perhaps Galadriel allowed Sauron into her land to try and gain knowledge from him, but keeping him under close watch at the same time.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:16 PM   #23
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Celebrimbor as the maker of the Three is published in The Lord of the Rings, so I accept that.

But as for CG&C, the story goes that Galadriel actually scorned Annatar, and that Annatar perceived that she would be his chief adversary and obstacle, bearing her scorn with outward patience. And so Sauron works with Celebrimbor and the Mirdain: '... but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.'


I mean, I agree, according to The Elessar Galadriel not only desired the preservation power of the Rings, but used Nenya once Sauron fell, as did Elrond. Yet Tolkien has her being Annatar's chief obstacle in CG&C, so much so that he must work in secret with the Mirdain... perhaps this was the 'answer' to the question? that perhaps Galadriel did not allow Sauron 'in Eregion' at all?

But I think Tolkien thought better of the whole thing. He makes Celebrimbor a Feanorean and makes him Lord of Eregion, and now whatever Galadriel's reaction to Sauron in Eregion, Sauron is allowed into the fold, and the deception continues until the Mirdain become aware of his true purpose (after the One is forged and so on).

Thus, Galadriel as ruler need not be ousted by the Mirdain, passing to Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war. In CG&C she went to Lorinand due to the revolt of the Jewel Smiths, but I note (Words, Phrases, and Passages)...


Quote:
'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin
And for the revised The Lord of the Rings, all that is noted is that the Noldor pass to Eregion (mithril and so on), and it is added that Celebrimbor is Lord of Eregion.

It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:51 PM   #24
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Just one little random question:

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I have always found it quite telling that in the Lord of the Rings, Elrond wishes that even the 3 had never been made, but Galadriel only wishes that the One Ring had not been made or at least never been found.
Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just dont get why, all together the rings had only positive effects, who knows if Lorien or Rivendell would have stood that long without the power of the ring and for Gandalf the ring was also very important? OK, in the end, the rings lost its power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:57 PM   #25
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Celebrimbor as the maker of the Three is published in The Lord of the Rings, so I accept that.

But as for CG&C, the story goes that Galadriel actually scorned Annatar, and that Annatar perceived that she would be his chief adversary and obstacle, bearing her scorn with outward patience. And so Sauron works with Celebrimbor and the Mirdain: '... but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.'
I don't think there is any doubt Galadriel did not trust or like Annatar, but it seems she was partially willing to make a deal with the devil or was tempted by what he had to offer. Perhaps thinking the Elves could gain from his knowledge without giving anything back in return.

He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.
Quote:
I mean, I agree, according to The Elessar Galadriel not only desired the preservation power of the Rings, but used Nenya once Sauron fell, as did Elrond. Yet Tolkien has her being Annatar's chief obstacle in CG&C, so much so that he must work in secret with the Mirdain... perhaps this was the 'answer' to the question? that perhaps Galadriel did not allow Sauron 'in Eregion' at all?
I think all the elves fell a bit when it came to using the rings, except Gandalf, who did not use his ring to stop the flow of time.

As I have pointed out before if she was treating him with scorn, then it means she must have known he was in land.

I feel that Galadriel's dealings with Sauron may have had some similarities with the way Feanor dealt with Morgoth. Both distrusted and hated the Dark Lord, but bought into their lies. Galadriel definitely agreed with Sauron's offer to create a Valinor in Middle Earth.
Quote:
But I think Tolkien thought better of the whole thing. He makes Celebrimbor a Feanorean and makes him Lord of Eregion, and now whatever Galadriel's reaction to Sauron in Eregion, Sauron is allowed into the fold, and the deception continues until the Mirdain become aware of his true purpose (after the One is forged and so on).
If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion? She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place. Though Gil-galad was by right her king, she was the greater, older and more powerful elf. If she would not stay under Gil-galad would she stay under the illegitimate rule of a Feanorian?
[QUOTE
Thus, Galadriel as ruler need not be ousted by the Mirdain, passing to Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war. In CG&C she went to Lorinand due to the revolt of the Jewel Smiths, but I note (Words, Phrases, and Passages)...
[/QUOTE]
The Noldor unlike the Sindar and even the Numenoreans are quick to get rid of leaders they disagree with. Even Finrod is ousted from his throne by Curufin and Celegorm. The Noldor ousting a wise and legitimate ruler is in keeping with their history and more notably the House of Finarfin.

I don't see any other reason why Galadriel would enter Eregion and not set up her own realm to rule.
Quote:
And for the revised The Lord of the Rings, all that is noted is that the Noldor pass to Eregion (mithril and so on), and it is added that Celebrimbor is Lord of Eregion.

It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...
Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open. Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.

I propose that Galadriel founded the realm and when Sauron came to Eregion she was immediately suspicious, but intrigued with what he had to offer. She refused to take his advise, but had yet to dismiss him outright. Celebrimbor starts working with him and history repeats itself. The House of Feanor once again try and oust the rightful heir of Finarfin.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Just one little random question:



Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just dont get why, all together the rings had only positive effects, who knows if Lorien or Rivendell would have stood that long without the power of the ring and for Gandalf the ring was also very important? OK, in the end, the rings lost its power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.
Even though the three rings had positive effects, they were still working against nature. They were preventing time from flowing the way it should do. Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves. By making the One Rings they succeeded in making Sauron stronger. Perhaps if Sauron did not have the One Ring then Numenor would have dealt with him themselves and not been destroyed.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:27 PM   #27
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Why would he wish for that? I do not argue that he wished for it, I just dont get why
Elrond's statement comes in the Council of Elrond. Immediately before saying this, he sort of outlines his rationale:
  • The elves made the rings because they desired to "preserve all things unstained." (to act as a preservative <g>)
  • Elves, to some extent, gained this desire, though with sorrow.
  • BUT - - - *if* Sauron recovers the One, things get far worse ... Their minds and hearts will be revealed to Sauron.
Recall that Sauron made The One to control the free peoples of Middle Earth. The Elves avoided that by taking off their rings and not using them (while he had The One).
Now, however, they've been using the rings for over 3,000 years, preserving and building their realms.
One might wonder whay, if Sauron gets the One back, they can't just take their rings off again. I suspect (extrapolating from Elrond's sentiment) that it's not that simple. It's just a guess, but perhaps now that they've invested so much of themselves in and through their rings, that taking off their rings would no longer be enough to sheild them from Sauron's control. That Sauron would (in some fashion) get inside their heads and exert the control over them he had always desired.

Imagine your horror if you found that your most feared enemy might gain the power to see your thoughts and feelings and to even twist them within your own mind.

Had the Three never been made, they would not have to fear this possibility.

<just a possibility>
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:37 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Puddleglum View Post
One might wonder whay, if Sauron gets the One back, they can't just take their rings off again. I suspect (extrapolating from Elrond's sentiment) that it's not that simple. It's just a guess, but perhaps now that they've invested so much of themselves in and through their rings, that taking off their rings would no longer be enough to sheild them from Sauron's control. That Sauron would (in some fashion) get inside their heads and exert the control over them he had always desired.
"If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever." (LR p.50)
So says Gandalf in "The Shadow of the Past". It seems to me that the danger wasn't so much a matter of Sauron being able to control their bearers if he recovered the One as it was that he could understand and overpower their works. It's mentioned in the Tale of Years that "Three times Lrien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself." (LR p.1069) I get the impression that was the greatest danger of the Three being compromised. A key element in recovering the One would seemingly have been the rapid mastery of the defences of Imladris and Lrien and an easier victory in the North. On one side I do somewhat feel that Sauron, consumed by hate as he was at the end of the Third Age, would have been more interested in destroying the Elves and their homes than controlling them. That being said, we can imagine that the bearers of the Three would have also been easier targets when otherwise they might have been formidable opponents had Sauron regained the One and been able to oppose their wills so directly.
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OK, in the end, the rings lost its power and the things made by them vanished, that would hurt very much, I guess, but still I think without the rings the outcome of the war could have been quite disastrous.
I agree. I think the Three were a blessing as well as a curse. Consider Gandalf's statement in The Quest of Erebor about Sauron's return to Mordor after forsaking Dol Guldur:
"Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lrien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first, and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor." (Unfinished Tales p.427)
Obviously in this case he's referring to the whole Smaug situation and Sauron's military strategy but it seems to be that the presence of the Three is important: without these Rings maintaining safe havens the Dark Lord may have recovered the One much more easily. So while their creation was perhaps fundamentally unwise they did have certain benefits which in the end contributed to Sauron's undoing when they would have otherwise aided his cause.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:01 AM   #29
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He may have been working in secret, but even in this version he is allowed entry into Eregion. If he is being scorned by Galadriel it means he has been admitted into the land. In Lindon in virtually every account he was forbidden from entering.
Yes but even Christopher Tolkien raises this question, noting that Tolkien himself doesn't really explain it. You might, I might, even Tolkien might, but he doesn't.

Quote:
If Galadriel was not going to stay in Lindon and accept the direct Overlordship of Gil-galad would she be willing to do the same in Eregion?
As far as I recall there is no motive of fleeing Gil-galad's lordship explaining why Galadriel passed to Eregion. Celeborn arguably rules Harlindon incidentally, even if under Gil-galad as High King (and Gil-galad is still High King if they had founded Eregion in any case)...

... the motive for the Noldorin move to Eregion is mithril (Appendix B), or for Galadriel and Celeborn (CG&C), they go to the country about Nenuial first, then Galadriel moves further East, becoming aware of an evil controlling purpose in the world, seemingly proceeding further to the East. And possibly choosing Eregion also because of the Dwarves of Moria.

Quote:
She often spoke of her desire to rule her own land. It seems odd that she would go the entire Second Age, without trying to rule at least one place.
Tolkien's early idea seems to be that Galadriel left Beleriand in the First Age, and (I assume) she thus ruled Lothlorien with Celeborn even before the Second Age began. Tolkien change Celeborn into a Sindarin Elf however, and (first edition) has him migrate to 'south Greenwood' in the Second Age; so again I assume that Galadriel went with him and essentially ruled in 'Lindorinand' with her husband...

... until The Road Goes Ever On is published, and the reader learns that they both went to Eregion, which also seems to take no notice of the never revised statement in The Lord of the Rings itself (Galadriel speaking): '... for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains...' and so on.

So basically Tolkien appears to make Galadriel 'wait' longer and longer until she takes up rule in Lorien, ultimately awaiting almost two thousand years into the Third Age.

Quote:
Is there really a reasonable argument for Galadriel not ruling her own realm especially when this is something she had always wished? The Second Age was her chance to do this. I just cannot see Galadriel willingly entering Eregion to be under the Lordship of Celebrimbor.
Well a possible argument could be that Celebrimbor and the Smiths, attracted by Mithril -- which is the certain idea we have in publication from the author actually -- simply founded the realm before Galadriel got there, so she had no choice.


But I look at the texts here. In CG&C Galadriel is in Lothlorien before Sauron comes with war, due to being ousted from rule by the Mirdain (noting that Celebrimbor himself still comes to her for advice after this, incidentally), and is thus in Lothlorien after Eregion is devastated. Yet in the two later accounts noted in Unfinished Tales, what do we have?

Celeborn goes to Lorien after the destruction of Eregion (which itself is a change from CG&C), and later rejoins Galadriel in Lindon. Or another idea. Christopher Tolkien explains:

Quote:
'The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration to Lorien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both at that time 'passed through Moria with a considrable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien'

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

It seems that Galadriel is no longer already in Lorien but passes there, unlike in CG&C where she was already in Lorien much earlier and didn't leave until after Sauron was defeated and so on -- again, with the reason for her being there being that she had been ousted from power -- and that was because she had been in power in Eregion in the first place. I note again the following from Words, Phrases And Passages:

Quote:
'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

Amroth as Galadriel's son changed. Celeborn's refusal to pass through Moria is gone. Gone (in my opinion) also is the agelong sojourn in Belfalas ('To Lorien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age...'), as Celeborn had never been to Lorien in CG&C, and Celeborn did not go there until far into the Third Age (CG&C). Celebrimbor as a Smith of Gondolin was changed.

What else? Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is characterized as a 'short and hasty outline, very roughly composed', and although we can't date it exactly is could be earlier than the three quotes from WPP above, but is certainly earlier than the notes I cited that CJRT reveals in Unfinished Tales.

Quote:
Galin wrote [about the added description in Appendix B]: It seems a rather notable detail to skip that Galadriel and Celeborn were founders and rulers of Eregion! but if that version raised too many questions and had been abandoned...

Cellurdur responded: Odd, but it still leaves the possibility open.
Yes but the only reason to inject Galadriel and Celeborn as founders of Eregion is because we now have access to a very rough outline which contains a number of abandoned concepts. And if this is odd, we can also add RGEO:

Quote:
'She passed over the mountains of Eredluin with her husband (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion. But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss. She was now burdened with this desire. In the event, after the fall of Sauron, in reward for all that she had done to oppose him, but above all for her rejection of the Ring when it came within her power, the ban was lifted, and she returned over Sea, as it told at the end of The Lord of the Rings.'
And where it is also told (in The Lord of the Rings that is) that Celeborn did not sail with Galadriel (not at this time at least), despite what he says to Aragorn, and despite what Tolkien says here about the Sea Longing and the land of their 'former bliss' ... so not only is Celeborn Sindarin here, but if Celeborn is from Aman why isn't he returning with Galadriel, given this much about the Sea Longing?

And is Galadriel being rewarded (in part) for allowing Sauron into Eregion where the son of her nephew did not? Maybe...

... but back to Eregion, to my mind the alteration of one word could have shown Tolkien's intent (if so) here: that is, Galadriel and Celeborn 'went' to Eregion? Or 'founded' Eregion.

And since I have RGEO out:

Quote:
'She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains...'
Which is why the very late, adumbrated tale of an 'unstained' Galadriel is out for me.

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Old 02-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #30
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I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:50 PM   #31
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I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.
Well, isn't he as entitled as any to indulge?
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #32
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My timeline (subject to change with my opinion or mood, or if something below doesn't make sense). Note that I'm not a combiner but rather take an approach that might be described as: if it's a draft and I get even the smallest [subjective] whiff of 'revised' then I'm probably tossing it out.

First Age

Mostly as in the constructed Silmarillion and The Road Goes Ever On. I accept Tolkien's later role for Galadriel at Swanhaven as a defender of the Teleri, but for the record I rather like the idea that she showed up too late to do anything [as I believe was the concept fom the early 1950s].


With a notable cough I 'interpret' Galadriel's line in The Lord of the Rings ['... and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.'] to mean she passed over mountains into Beleriand to ultimately meet Celeborn, a Sindarin Elf and kinsman of Thingol, in Doriath.

There seems to be a bit of a textual issue with Galadriel visiting Finrod in Nargothrond, but I also accept the published Silmarillion that she did visit him.

After that is seems we have Galadriel in Thingol's realm, learning from Melian and having a life with Celeborn there until the Sack of Doriath, based on the brief line [Unfinished Tales] that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath'.

Second Age

Galadriel has been specially banned from Aman for her role in the Rebellion. She proudly refuses to return anyway [RGEO]

Year

1 Foundation of Lindon and Grey Havens. Gil-galad, son of Arothir son of Angrod, dwells in North Lindon as High King. Celeborn is given a fief to rule in South Lindon, with many Sindar [Of Dwarves And Men]

750 Eregion founded by the Noldor. Celebrimbor the Feanorean is Lord. This Noldorin migration is based on learning that mithril had been discovered in Moria [Appendix B]. At some point Galadriel passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn and went to Eregion [RGEO]

According to one version of the story [internally] at some point before Annatar deluded the Smiths of Eregion [sometime before year 1200 I guess], Celebrimbor makes the Elessar for Galadriel [here I reject that she came from Greenwood to Eregion to speak to Celebrimbor]

Before the building of Barad-dur [c. year 1000] Amdir migrates to Lindorinand and rules the Silvan folk there.

1693 the Three Rings are hidden [Appendix B] At this time perhaps Galadriel recieves Nenya, and possibly travels to Lindon with the other two Rings. One of the details from Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn that I do note concerns her advice to Celebrimbor to send the Three away, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be. If this is so, and she received Nenya, it might be thought that she herself passed to Lindon at this time.

Either that or Nerwen remains in Eregion at this point -- as here we have contemporary but seemingly conflicting statements -- one being that Celeborn ultimately joined Galadriel in Lindon after fortifying Lothlorien, the other being that they both passed to Lorien after Eregion was destroyed.

1695 Sauron invades Eriador. 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. Gates of Moria are shut. Elrond reteats with remnant of the Noldor. Celeborn passes to Lindorinand to fortify it.

1701 Sauron driven out of Eriador. Again, Celeborn either joins Galadriel in Lindon, or, both having passed to Lindorinand at the destruction of Eregion [UT note], they both remain in the realm of Amdir for a time [I wish I could tell which note was later here, to help me chose one or the other]. If both Galadriel and Celeborn are in Lindorinand, they return to Lindon at some point [making some use of the note where Celeborn rejoins Galadriel in Lindon at least].

And Galadriel and Celeborn return to Lindorinand twice before the Last Alliance [UT note].

During one of these two visits Galadriel begins the planting of mallorn trees in Lindorinand. Possibly all we need is a 'mere' 500 years for the trees to become grown enough for Cerin Amroth in the future, for example, or at least it was said in UT [A description of Numenor] that in Numenor '... the mighty tree malinorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea itself.'] Of course that's Numenor, but it could be that in 500 years the mallorn will grow to its highest height in Middle-earth as well, whatever that is [is it noted? I can't recall].

3431 Gil-galad and Elendil march to Imladris before the Last Alliance. Celebrian and Galadriel possibly go at least this far with Celeborn, so Elrond and Celebrian possibly meet at this point [trying to get them together before TA 109 anyway].

3441 Sauron overthrown. Amdir had been slain in 3434 [at the Battle of Dagorlad] . Second Age ends. Amdir's son Amroth, King of the Silvan Realm.

Third Age

Elrond returns to Imladris [in my timeline] meeting Celebrian again. Possibly at this time they fall in love. Galadriel and Celeborn either remain in Imladris with Celebrian, or the family returns to Lindon at some point.

109 Elrond weds Celebrian [in Imladris in any case I would say, with Celeborn and Galadriel present].

c. 1000 the Istari arrive in Middle-earth. According to another internal version of The Elessar, at some point Olorin brings the jewel to Galadriel [here I again reject that she lived in Greenwood the Great at this point]. Despite that she can employ Nenya at this time, if desired, according to this version Galadriel appears to desire the land about her to be preserved.

1050 a shadow falls on Greenwood. c. 1100 the Wise discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur.

At some point between c. 1100 and c. 1300 Galadriel becomes filled with foreboding and with Celeborn she journeys to Lorien, staying long with Amroth, being especially concerned to learn news of the growing shadow in Mirkwood and the stronghold at Dol Guldur [and see note on mallorn trees below].

Celeborn and Galadriel take long journeys of enquiry in Rhovanion, and ultimately pass over the Misty Mountains to Imladris and dwell there for many years [UT note, Artanis' daughter now probably dwells in Imladris after all, rather than Lindon]

c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains [Appendix B, and this is why I put the return from Rhovanion over the mountains somewhere before this date].

1981 Nain I slain. Dwarves flee Moria. Amroth and Nimrodel lost. Celeborn and Galadriel take up the government of Loriand or Lorinand, by this time called so because of the golden mallorn trees.

Galadriel associates the name Lori(n)and [which itself had altered from earlier Lindorinand due to the golden trees] with Quenya Lorien, itself prefixed with Sindarin loth 'flower' at some point, resulting in Lothlorien among other names.

And so on, as in The Lord of the Rings.

Note on mallorn trees

At this point in the Third Age, c. 1100, Galadriel could plant the mallorn trees as well, and here Nenya is available. Although the Three were directed to the preservation of beauty, they might also be included in: 'But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor.' [letter 131 notes the chief power of all the rings alike was that of preservation, but also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor].

Even if the trees take 500 years to grow to full height [which is not certain really], Cerin Amroth has plenty of time to be considered the heart of the old realm in my opinion, and from around TA 1600 to 1981 the mallorns might be full grown.

However this seems to disagree with a note [UT] that has Amroth's flet being built after about 1,000 years in the Third Age, to watch Dol Guldur at first, for the Trees atop the mound should arguably be quite tall by c. 1100 for him to build a flet therein [instead of being planted at this time] -- although in the late tale of Amroth and Nimrodel itself, it is simply said that Amroth had many years of peace after the defeat of Sauron, and he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and '... housed in the tall trees of a great green* mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth.'


So perhaps his flet need not have begun as a watch on Dol Guldur.

But Amroth And Nimrodel seems to suggest (in my opinion) that the mallorn trees of Cerin Amroth should be tall somewhat early in the Third Age, and Legolas' words in The Lord of the Rings also seem to imply that the Galadhrim were living in trees before the Shadow came -- so maybe it's safer to push the planting back to the Second Age again.

Or maybe go with what I think was the early concept, that the mallorn trees grew in Lorien without Galadriel, and before she arrived.

*not a 'green great' mound, I note

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Old 02-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #33
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Even though the three rings had positive effects, they were still working against nature. They were preventing time from flowing the way it should do. Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves. By making the One Rings they succeeded in making Sauron stronger. Perhaps if Sauron did not have the One Ring then Numenor would have dealt with him themselves and not been destroyed.
How would Numenor not have been destroyed if Sauron did not have the ring, wasnt Numenor "destroyed" by Eru, after the Numenorians tried to attack the Valar? Sauron was taken capitive by the Numenorians but after some time convinced the king to go to Aman.

For the ringbearers preventing time from flowing and that being a bad thing, it is hinted that Yavanna supportet Galadriels wish that she could hold time
Quote:
"This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth.
One could think that the Valar have no problem if Galadriel manipulates nature to some degree. I know in some letter Tolkien said it was evil to manipulate nature, but maybe he makes differences in HOW and why it is used, they didnt used the rings to make them superiour to others and as I understand, that was one of the motives of the smiths in Eregion.

Quote:
Tolkien even calls the creation of the rings a second fall for the Elves.
Because to motive was bad, for original makers wanted to create a second Valinor and be masters to everyone else. I doubt Galadriel wanted a second Valinor, she would know very well that she is never able to do so IMHO, she just wanted to make herself a nice home, that is comprehensible since she is not able to go to her proper home.

I think it is very brave that they took the risk of being controlled by Sauron if he would find the one ring, I never thought of it, I always thought that they would just take off their rings and then sail to Valinor, but it seems it wouldnt have been that easy.

Quote:
I have to say, in brief, that Galin's opinion (and conclusions from many citations) is pretty much where I am on the question. I think the late Unstained Supergaladriel was the aging Tolkien's foray into Mary Sue-ism.
Why is the later, unstained Galadriel Mary Sue-ish? Like rebell Galadriel she was banned, she didnt took part in the rebellion, but she left at the same time as Feanor, so she came under the curse of Mandos, despite of her non-activity in the rebellion.
Quote:
but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration.
-353, 4 August 1973
If she would have stayed back and waited for the permission to go and even would have gotten the task by the Valar, that I would call Mary Sue-ism.

One character trait of rebell Galadriel is this:
Quote:
From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fanor.
That sounds more like a Mary Sue than everything else, and in that version she was still "wicked"

IMHO the only Mary Sue in Tolkiens World is Luthien. I have nothing against her, she has a great story, I just miss character depth in her, shes just too pure, too perfect and too innocent for my taste and therefore boring.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:04 PM   #34
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I don't think you understand what a "Mary Sue" is. It's not the same as Little Miss Sweetness and Light.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:37 PM   #35
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Narya Mary Sue?

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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
IMHO the only Mary Sue in Tolkien's World is Luthien. I have nothing against her, she has a great story, I just miss character depth in her, shes just too pure, too perfect and too innocent for my taste and therefore boring.
A while back, I had an opportunity to play in a Middle Earth role playing game set in the late Third Age. I habitually play female characters, and like to create a character that echoes the spirit of the game environment. My primary models were Galadriel, Arwen and Goldberry. Who else?

Not that a beginning character had enough skill points to build a Queen / Princess / Demi goddess, but I tried to build someone who could grow in that direction. To do less didn't seem to honor the spirit of the world.

Pure? Perfect? Innocent? Mary Sue? As a player character, having a good deal of script immunity in her pocket? Sure.

Boring? If one stays at home by the fire, singing and being beautiful, protected by mighty warriors, sure. Joining a fellowship and rubbing all that purity and idealism against wargs in the dark, not so boring. Spending all those skill points on beauty, song and social skills is all well and good, but one ends up without the same sword and archery skills as the guys. I learned why the guys want to keep women in their place at home rather than taking them out on quest. It's hard enough to triumph over Great Evil without constantly looking over one's shoulder to make sure Mary Sue isn't in over her head again.

But having someone who could Sing with a bit of Power came in handy on occasion.

Yes, Tolkien tended to place his imaginary womenfolk up on pedestals. I for one was not content with that. At least Eowyn and Luthien got to have a few adventures, as did my character.

The male characters in the game were protective. When it was their place to travel underground to slay the vile monster, it was Aerlinn's place to stand guard at the door to the cavern. This was very chivalrous of them. Very noble, at least until the vile monster decided to run away and it became Aerlinn's job to hold the door to prevent escape. Fortunately, she didn't have to hold her ground long.

Mary Sue? Somewhat. But Tolkien's ladies were part of the vision. Their presence was and remains a part of the whole. When one reads modern urban romance fantasy, where the lead character is apt to be an oversexed female vampire, werewolf, angel or demon, Tokien's idea of fantasy womankind seems really dated.

But this makes me no less fond of them.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:04 AM   #36
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Yes, Tolkien tended to place his imaginary womenfolk up on pedestals. I for one was not content with that. At least Eowyn and Luthien got to have a few adventures, as did my character.
My problem with Luthien is that she all did it for love, not for freedom for example or personal fulfilment. That is Mary -Sue-ish, for me at least. Galadriel never was that way. I see Galadriel as a more independent person as Luthien, even if Luthien decided to accept mortal fate and would never see her family, but again, "only" to be with Beren. Galadriel left her family (temporary) to fight evil and rule a realm of her own, if she gets the chance. Luthein seems soft and sweet, Galadriel determinant.

In modern world Luthien would be a mother and housewife (which is not bad, I dont want to be disrespectful), while Galadriel would be politican ;-)

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Old 02-09-2013, 02:46 PM   #37
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My problem with Luthien is that she all did it for love, not for freedom for example or personal fulfilment. That is Mary -Sue-ish, for me at least. Galadriel never was that way. I see Galadriel as a more independent person as Luthien, even if Luthien decided to accept mortal fate and would never see her family, but again, "only" to be with Beren. Galadriel left her family (temporary) to fight evil and rule a realm of her own, if she gets the chance. Luthein seems soft and sweet, Galadriel determinant.

In modern world Luthien would be a mother and housewife (which is not bad, I dont want to be disrespectful), while Galadriel would be politican ;-)
Luthien marched into Hell itself and dared put Morgoth to sleep. Luthien and Beren managed to do what all the Noldor could not, she took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

I don't see the problem in doing something for love. Earendil sailed to Valinor for love of elves and men. This is precisely why they are the greatest and most beloved Children of Illuvatar.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:56 PM   #38
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Earendil sailed to Valinor for love of elves and men. This is precisely why they are the greatest and most beloved Children of Illuvatar.
Many elves before him tried the same, they only hadnt the luck having the Silmaril with them. IMHO that was the reason he was successful, he tried several times before but wasnt able to go to Aman, till he had the Silmaril. I dont know if it makes him the greatest of the children, he is never called it, he was fated to reach Aman and so help the people of ME, but you are right that he is the most beloved, Galadriel refered to him as their most beloved star.

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Luthien marched into Hell itself and dared put Morgoth to sleep. Luthien and Beren managed to do what all the Noldor could not, she took a Silmaril from Morgoth.
I do not deny it, but it was due to a selfish desire (even if this is absoutely comprehensible) , namely so that they could be together, I doubt they had in mind the salvation of all ME. To be honest I find Frodo more heroic, sure he doesnt used that cool magic and his tale is not that dramatic, but he did it to save ALL people, he was selfless.
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:45 PM   #39
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You're still a bit off the mark. A "Mary Sue" is not a goody-two-shoes, but a character the author has become excessively fond of and consequently makes too omnicompetent and perfect. They tend to be characterised not by not taking part in "action," but by being preposterously good at it. I think, for example, in later Discworld books Pratchett made Sam Vimes a bit of a Mary Sue. (See also, Yoda in the prequels.)
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:12 AM   #40
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They tend to be characterised not by not taking part in "action," but by being preposterously good at it.
If that is not Luthien, I dont know who is Her action was putting Morgoth to sleep and in that she was very good.

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but a character the author has become excessively fond of and consequently makes too omnicompetent and perfect
Well Tolkiens wife was an inspiration for Luthien, so I would say that Tolkien was very fond of her and very perfect Luthien was also.
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