Were Gandalf and the balrog equals? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Evenstar1 · 08-31-2002, 09:58 PM

Okay, first of all, I ran a search for this topic, and couldn't find this question specifically answered (though it was debated mildly on a related-thread). And I've been wondering what the answer might be. Wasn't Gandalf a greater spirit than the balrog? My assumption lies in the thought that Gandalf and Sauron were both maiar, while the balrog was a lesser spirit (slightly) than either of those two. (This, because of his protracted dormant-state, versus the much more active states of the other maiar.)

Anyway, if Gandalf was the greater, shouldn't he have been able to defeat the balrog without dying?

(Sorry if I'm not making too much sense. Quite tired right now. I'll clarify more if necessary! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

Guildo · 08-31-2002, 10:28 PM

Tuff question to answer they where all Maiar the Balrogs where Maiar of Melkor, Sauron was a Maiar of Aule ( but converted to Melkors side, and the Istari (Wizards where Maiar of various other Valar) i think the deciding factor here is that the Istari where only given a certain amount of power by the Valar and Lluvitar based on Sauron's power. the Valar did not want any one of the Istari to defeat Sauron by them selves, but rather work together to bring down Sauron. Now The Balrog where created directly by Melkor and where not given a limit to there power (with the exception of not becoming more powerfull than Melkor himself) so its very possible that the Balrogs could Acheive more power than the wizards. Sauron was a Maiar of Aule who Melkor talked in to coming to his side, Becouse he was Melkors right hand man, he took over the thrown so to speak when Melkor was sent to the Void, and Sauron had all the dark minions under his controll, and we see just how powerfull he became.

Feel free to correct me if im wrong this is just my two lembas worth.

Glorfinniel the Lost · 09-01-2002, 12:00 AM

The Istari were sent by the Valar in the guise of mortal men, so as to gain friendship and trust, rather than coming in their full might and majesty which would have daunted men, and seem that the wizards had come to conquer and rule.
The Valar did the opposite of this by attempting to gaurd and seclude the elves with an open display of power,which Melkor used against them, leading to the exodus of the Noldor.

My point? Power, might and courage can come in the simplest or least expected form. Take Frodo and Boromir for example. Frodo, a simple hobbit entrusted with the task of destroying the One Ring and for the greater part, aided only by Sam. And Boromir, a valiant prince of Gondor, honoured and respected by all, yet who resisted the temptation of the ring and destroyed it?(even if Gollum bit it off his finger in the end, Frodo at many times could have surrendered to Sauron or turned back on the quest)

In Gandalfs case, power came in the simple form of trickery and cunning. He lured the Balrog onto the bridge, and an unsuspecting Balrog went bye bye when Gandalf broke the bridge with his staff. But the Balrogs whip took hold of Gandalf, bringing him down to the depths of Moria.
In the end, Gandalf did defeat the Balrog, but became unconcious (during this time, I believe his spirit went back to Valinor for some unknown reason, but he awoke Gandalf the White.)

And finally, the point of this whole post being? Gandalf probaly knew that by "dying" he would receive a lot more power; this power being vital in many battles later in the books.
But this as Guildo puts it, is just my two lembas and someone with more knowledge about subjects like this might like to clear this up?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-01-2002, 07:00 AM

Even if Gandalf was more powerful than the Balrog, it cannot be expected that he would defeat it without dying.

Just think about Sauron taking on Gil-Galad and Elendil. You might think that a powerful Maia would have no problem surviving a fight with an Elf and a Man.

Legolas · 09-01-2002, 01:02 PM

More on Eomer's thought...

Melkor, the most powerful spirit in Ea, fought Fingolfin, an elf, and, though victorious, left with a vicious wound.

Ecthelion and Glorfindel both slew balrogs, but died in the process.

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

akhtene · 09-01-2002, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Wasn't Gandalf a greater spirit than the balrog?
Anyway, if Gandalf was the greater, shouldn't he have been able to defeat the balrog without dying?

Basically, Gandalf and the Balrog were equal in origin, that is they were both Maiar, immortal spirits, inferior only to the Valar. But Gandalf had restrictions imposed on him (but not just given a small amount of power) while the Balrog could use all he posessed.

Another thing is that the Balrogs were the firery spirits, and Gandalf as one of the Istari was sent to Middle-Earth in the shape (the body) of a mortal old man. And it's this mortal body that couldn't survive the fire, the fall, the chase and fight; it's the outer shell that failed and died. But Gandalf the Maia didn't die, but defeated the Balrog thus proving that he was stronger.

Galorme · 09-01-2002, 03:36 PM

This is going to sound terribly corny, but Gandolf had good on his side. Gandolf was in the form of a man, with only small quantities of power, and his only asset was an Elven Ring that could preserve lost knowledge from ages lost. But i believe that this could quite well be what saved him. In the Red Ring was stored the past of the elves, and the ability to honour their memories from the Eldar Days. And in the Eldar days the weak and feeble could suceed because they were fighting for love, or justified vengeance, or for the victory of good over evil. And Gandolf was fighting for the Love the Maia have for all living things. I believe that this is how he could defeat the Balrog. Also I dont believe that Gandolf died to gain power, but he died because he haD just fought a 11 day battle with a big f*@k-Off fire demon.

Evenstar1 · 09-01-2002, 09:50 PM

First off, thanks to all who replied! It is becoming a little clearer...

Now, let me get this straight: Gandalf and the Balrog were equal in that they were both maiar, but had different amounts of power. Gandalf's ability to use his power was limited (by either Illuvatar or the Valar) but he had an Elven Ring. And the Balrog's ability to use his powers was not limited by anyone/anything. (And he was created by Melkor? I thought only Illuvatar was allowed to create beings of intelligence, with the exception of Aule's creation of the Dwarves, which Eru pardoned...?)

Anyway, Gandalf and the Balrog were similar and different in the same way that two Men or two Valar could be different. But their equality lay only in their species.

Is that correct? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ]

Galorme · 09-02-2002, 04:32 AM

Morgoth did not "create" the Balrogs, they merely entered his service. To the best of my knowledge they created their bodies themselves (they are fallen angels they can do what they want).

Durialion · 09-02-2002, 08:31 AM

I think they are equals and that Gandalf let his guard down which let the Balrog pull him down into the abbyss. So, I think that Gandalf is greater than the Balrog. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

O'Boile · 09-03-2002, 08:17 AM

Their actual fighting power appears to be somewhat similar since they fight for some time, and both end up perishing (at least Gandalf's mortal body dies). I would probably say that the balrog may have actually been stronger given the Istari factor of Gandalf... Gandalf won, but he had a sword to help him. Unarmed, he would have had a tougher time. Who knows how powerful Gandalf was in his natural from? I would guess a fair amount stronger than his 'white' form which was still stronger than his 'grey' form.
One thing however, I think that Gandalf's real asset was his wisdom. As far as Maiar go, he probably did not stand out based on this strength (fighting ability)

Evenstar1 · 09-03-2002, 09:04 PM

Quote:

One thing however, I think that Gandalf's real asset was his wisdom. As far as Maiar go, he probably did not stand out based on this strength (fighting ability)

Good point, O'Boile! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Demloth of Dol Amroth · 09-03-2002, 09:33 PM

to, the balrog had no sword *cue bridge scene* he appears to have lost it when trying to cut through both glamdring and his staff-so considering the power of those AND gandalf's power focused in his staff, the sword had a lot to cut through. this alone probably gave gandalf a big advantage. but in general, i'd say roughly even-balrog's were mainly strength and intelligence(albeit evil), while gandalf had wisdom, nice stuff, and the grace of the valar. anyone agree or think i ramble overmuch?

O'Boile · 09-04-2002, 07:10 AM

I could be wrong about this, but in the book, doesn't Gandalf's staff break when he shatters the bridge? I'm pretty sure that he only has his sword when most of the fighting occurs.

Galorme · 09-04-2002, 02:40 PM

Last time i checked "swords are of no use here!". A sword could not have done that much use without the power to weild it. That would be a good topic for a discussion too. Are the powerful magical swords in fact powerful and magic in their own right or is it just the fact that people who wield them are powerful?

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

Demloth of Dol Amroth · 09-04-2002, 05:02 PM

the "swords are on no more use" might have merely referred to ordinary weapons-like a standard long sword, nothing outstanding. on the magical weapons question, perhaps depending on the wielder's power, it waxed and waned appropriately-but i recall the one case when turin wielded gurthang, and when he took his life, the sword spoke to him. considering that turin was a run-of-the-mill human, albeit one with skill in battle and such, he wielded no special powers that "people" like gandalf wielded, so we can only assume the power was in gurthang. i'd say a discussion of magical weapons needs it's own topic, though!

O'Boile · 09-05-2002, 07:43 AM

Turin was more than a 'run of the mill' human. He was one of the most valiant humans ever. But you do have a point, the swords do definately seem to have some power of their own. I think Gandalf's 'Swords are no use here' comment was more to get the rest of the party to run. Was that comment in the book or just the movie?
In TTT Gandalf says something along the lines of 'Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed (sp?) him...' That implies to me that he was stabbing him repeatedly with his sword, and thus, it has some use. And if Glamdring was useful, one would assume that Andruil (Narsil) would have been useful against the Balrog.

Lhunbelethiel · 09-05-2002, 08:59 AM

Maybe this'll sound weird, but perhaps Gandalf could see that he had a role to play and that this was it. (similar to what someone said about Gollum playing his role in the destruction of the ring) Maybe he knew he'd survive and come out stronger because of it. I hate to use the 'fate' argument, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment. (need more coffee.... can't go on... balrog of sleepiness threatening to take over!)

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-05-2002, 12:06 PM

Am I right in thinking that either the Valar or Iluvatar need to pardon Maiar who have lost their outer 'shell'?

Gandalf was allowed back after he died but Saruman wasn't, and I'm guessing that the Balrog wasn't either.

But then again, Sauron took shape again after his initial shape was defeated. Is this because Sauron was more powerful than Saruman?

08-31-2002, 09:58 PM	#1
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	Were Gandalf and the balrog equals? Okay, first of all, I ran a search for this topic, and couldn't find this question specifically answered (though it was debated mildly on a related-thread). And I've been wondering what the answer might be. Wasn't Gandalf a greater spirit than the balrog? My assumption lies in the thought that Gandalf and Sauron were both maiar, while the balrog was a lesser spirit (slightly) than either of those two. (This, because of his protracted dormant-state, versus the much more active states of the other maiar.) Anyway, if Gandalf was the greater, shouldn't he have been able to defeat the balrog without dying? (Sorry if I'm not making too much sense. Quite tired right now. I'll clarify more if necessary! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) __________________ - Eve

08-31-2002, 10:28 PM	#2
Guildo Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Forgoten lands of the South Posts: 119	Tuff question to answer they where all Maiar the Balrogs where Maiar of Melkor, Sauron was a Maiar of Aule ( but converted to Melkors side, and the Istari (Wizards where Maiar of various other Valar) i think the deciding factor here is that the Istari where only given a certain amount of power by the Valar and Lluvitar based on Sauron's power. the Valar did not want any one of the Istari to defeat Sauron by them selves, but rather work together to bring down Sauron. Now The Balrog where created directly by Melkor and where not given a limit to there power (with the exception of not becoming more powerfull than Melkor himself) so its very possible that the Balrogs could Acheive more power than the wizards. Sauron was a Maiar of Aule who Melkor talked in to coming to his side, Becouse he was Melkors right hand man, he took over the thrown so to speak when Melkor was sent to the Void, and Sauron had all the dark minions under his controll, and we see just how powerfull he became. Feel free to correct me if im wrong this is just my two lembas worth. __________________ "You cant always get what you want.... But if you try sometimes you just my find.... you get what you need." Glen Sight

09-01-2002, 12:00 AM	#3
Glorfinniel the Lost Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Enchanted Isles Posts: 119	The Istari were sent by the Valar in the guise of mortal men, so as to gain friendship and trust, rather than coming in their full might and majesty which would have daunted men, and seem that the wizards had come to conquer and rule. The Valar did the opposite of this by attempting to gaurd and seclude the elves with an open display of power,which Melkor used against them, leading to the exodus of the Noldor. My point? Power, might and courage can come in the simplest or least expected form. Take Frodo and Boromir for example. Frodo, a simple hobbit entrusted with the task of destroying the One Ring and for the greater part, aided only by Sam. And Boromir, a valiant prince of Gondor, honoured and respected by all, yet who resisted the temptation of the ring and destroyed it?(even if Gollum bit it off his finger in the end, Frodo at many times could have surrendered to Sauron or turned back on the quest) In Gandalfs case, power came in the simple form of trickery and cunning. He lured the Balrog onto the bridge, and an unsuspecting Balrog went bye bye when Gandalf broke the bridge with his staff. But the Balrogs whip took hold of Gandalf, bringing him down to the depths of Moria. In the end, Gandalf did defeat the Balrog, but became unconcious (during this time, I believe his spirit went back to Valinor for some unknown reason, but he awoke Gandalf the White.) And finally, the point of this whole post being? Gandalf probaly knew that by "dying" he would receive a lot more power; this power being vital in many battles later in the books. But this as Guildo puts it, is just my two lembas and someone with more knowledge about subjects like this might like to clear this up? __________________ But Lancelot mused a little space, he said 'She has a lovely face' God in his mercy lend her grace, The Lady of Shalott Alfred, Lord Tennyson

09-01-2002, 07:00 AM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Even if Gandalf was more powerful than the Balrog, it cannot be expected that he would defeat it without dying. Just think about Sauron taking on Gil-Galad and Elendil. You might think that a powerful Maia would have no problem surviving a fight with an Elf and a Man. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-01-2002, 01:02 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	More on Eomer's thought... Melkor, the most powerful spirit in Ea, fought Fingolfin, an elf, and, though victorious, left with a vicious wound. Ecthelion and Glorfindel both slew balrogs, but died in the process. [ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

09-01-2002, 03:36 PM	#7
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	This is going to sound terribly corny, but Gandolf had good on his side. Gandolf was in the form of a man, with only small quantities of power, and his only asset was an Elven Ring that could preserve lost knowledge from ages lost. But i believe that this could quite well be what saved him. In the Red Ring was stored the past of the elves, and the ability to honour their memories from the Eldar Days. And in the Eldar days the weak and feeble could suceed because they were fighting for love, or justified vengeance, or for the victory of good over evil. And Gandolf was fighting for the Love the Maia have for all living things. I believe that this is how he could defeat the Balrog. Also I dont believe that Gandolf died to gain power, but he died because he haD just fought a 11 day battle with a big f*@k-Off fire demon. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-01-2002, 09:50 PM	#8
Evenstar1 Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado (just east of the Misty Mts.) Posts: 111	First off, thanks to all who replied! It is becoming a little clearer... Now, let me get this straight: Gandalf and the Balrog were equal in that they were both maiar, but had different amounts of power. Gandalf's ability to use his power was limited (by either Illuvatar or the Valar) but he had an Elven Ring. And the Balrog's ability to use his powers was not limited by anyone/anything. (And he was created by Melkor? I thought only Illuvatar was allowed to create beings of intelligence, with the exception of Aule's creation of the Dwarves, which Eru pardoned...?) Anyway, Gandalf and the Balrog were similar and different in the same way that two Men or two Valar could be different. But their equality lay only in their species. Is that correct? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Evenstar1 ] __________________ - Eve

09-02-2002, 04:32 AM	#9
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Morgoth did not "create" the Balrogs, they merely entered his service. To the best of my knowledge they created their bodies themselves (they are fallen angels they can do what they want). __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-02-2002, 08:31 AM	#10
Durialion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 42	I think they are equals and that Gandalf let his guard down which let the Balrog pull him down into the abbyss. So, I think that Gandalf is greater than the Balrog. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf

09-03-2002, 08:17 AM	#11
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Their actual fighting power appears to be somewhat similar since they fight for some time, and both end up perishing (at least Gandalf's mortal body dies). I would probably say that the balrog may have actually been stronger given the Istari factor of Gandalf... Gandalf won, but he had a sword to help him. Unarmed, he would have had a tougher time. Who knows how powerful Gandalf was in his natural from? I would guess a fair amount stronger than his 'white' form which was still stronger than his 'grey' form. One thing however, I think that Gandalf's real asset was his wisdom. As far as Maiar go, he probably did not stand out based on this strength (fighting ability)

09-03-2002, 09:33 PM	#13
Demloth of Dol Amroth Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 105	to, the balrog had no sword cue bridge scene he appears to have lost it when trying to cut through both glamdring and his staff-so considering the power of those AND gandalf's power focused in his staff, the sword had a lot to cut through. this alone probably gave gandalf a big advantage. but in general, i'd say roughly even-balrog's were mainly strength and intelligence(albeit evil), while gandalf had wisdom, nice stuff, and the grace of the valar. anyone agree or think i ramble overmuch? __________________ One by one the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Ring-but there were some, who resisted...

09-04-2002, 07:10 AM	#14
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	I could be wrong about this, but in the book, doesn't Gandalf's staff break when he shatters the bridge? I'm pretty sure that he only has his sword when most of the fighting occurs.

09-04-2002, 02:40 PM	#15
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Last time i checked "swords are of no use here!". A sword could not have done that much use without the power to weild it. That would be a good topic for a discussion too. Are the powerful magical swords in fact powerful and magic in their own right or is it just the fact that people who wield them are powerful? [ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-04-2002, 05:02 PM	#16
Demloth of Dol Amroth Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 105	the "swords are on no more use" might have merely referred to ordinary weapons-like a standard long sword, nothing outstanding. on the magical weapons question, perhaps depending on the wielder's power, it waxed and waned appropriately-but i recall the one case when turin wielded gurthang, and when he took his life, the sword spoke to him. considering that turin was a run-of-the-mill human, albeit one with skill in battle and such, he wielded no special powers that "people" like gandalf wielded, so we can only assume the power was in gurthang. i'd say a discussion of magical weapons needs it's own topic, though! __________________ One by one the Free Lands of Middle Earth fell to the power of the Ring-but there were some, who resisted...

09-05-2002, 07:43 AM	#17
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Turin was more than a 'run of the mill' human. He was one of the most valiant humans ever. But you do have a point, the swords do definately seem to have some power of their own. I think Gandalf's 'Swords are no use here' comment was more to get the rest of the party to run. Was that comment in the book or just the movie? In TTT Gandalf says something along the lines of 'Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed (sp?) him...' That implies to me that he was stabbing him repeatedly with his sword, and thus, it has some use. And if Glamdring was useful, one would assume that Andruil (Narsil) would have been useful against the Balrog.

09-05-2002, 08:59 AM	#18
Lhunbelethiel Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area (aka Bay of Belfalas) Posts: 103	Maybe this'll sound weird, but perhaps Gandalf could see that he had a role to play and that this was it. (similar to what someone said about Gollum playing his role in the destruction of the ring) Maybe he knew he'd survive and come out stronger because of it. I hate to use the 'fate' argument, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment. (need more coffee.... can't go on... balrog of sleepiness threatening to take over!) __________________ ~~All that is gold does not glitter, not all who wander are lost, all that is old does not wither, deep roots are not touched by the frost...~~

09-05-2002, 12:06 PM	#19
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Am I right in thinking that either the Valar or Iluvatar need to pardon Maiar who have lost their outer 'shell'? Gandalf was allowed back after he died but Saruman wasn't, and I'm guessing that the Balrog wasn't either. But then again, Sauron took shape again after his initial shape was defeated. Is this because Sauron was more powerful than Saruman? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond