Ancients - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galorme · 09-01-2002, 03:55 PM

I am back from my holiday (is saying that spam under the new rules?). But this does serve a purpose other than marking the end of a absence I am sure none of you noticed. When i was away i was thinking a lot about how Tolkein (though I suppose it was more his son than JRR himself) managed to portray this amazing sense of old, lost knowledge. Especially the earlier histories, they create an impression of a world that was there, and now only fragments remain.

Basically I want to hear what people think of this, comment on all the old tales, what is told and usually most critically what is left out. Wonderful examples are the tale of Earnedil and the glimpses of the later future of the Lonely Isle. There is a wonderful beauty in these story that is also shared somewhat with bits of the Notion Club Papers and most of the Drowning of Anadune.

Any comments? Anyone have anything they can talk about, or add?

Tigerlily Gamgee · 09-01-2002, 06:37 PM

In a way, it's kind of like our own world's history and knowledge...
I am sure that Tolkien knew much more about Middle Earth than was ever written on paper... but as everything goes... what is not written down is lost...
It makes me think of the part of the National Geographic Special that talks about Finland and their story songs... how there are only few now who remember them and none really learn them. So, it's sad to know that in a few years another piece of history is lost forever.

It's just another thing that makes Middle Earth so real, because it is impossible to know everything about a place that has existed for thousands of years. Tolkien was the key to it all, and there are some things we will never know (both about Middle Earth and our own world).
I agree with you completely about how it is very amazing.

Lothiriel Silmarien · 09-01-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

It's just another thing that makes Middle Earth so real, because it is impossible to know everything about a place that has existed for thousands of years. Tolkien was the key to it all, and there are some things we will never know (both about Middle Earth and our own world).
I agree with you completely about how it is very amazing.

Ditto!

Tolkien has inspired countless thousands of people. Even some that aren't writers, just ordinary people who love his books. His works are so incredible and creative. The way he describes Middle-earth, Aman, Beleriand, whatever, it just makes you feel like that is your own world, sort of like you created it, no one can 'intrude'. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And if it that's how Middle-earth is to us, then imagine what it's like for Tolkien. HE'S the one who created it, all of it's secrets are (were) known only to him. Well, some things were left intentionally out so that it can really feel like it was a real place! Like Tigerlily said, no one even knows all the secrets to our world.

Um, I hope there was a point to my blabbering!

Sorry if this is spamming, but welcome back Galorme! We've missed you!

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

littlemanpoet · 09-01-2002, 07:03 PM

Just by way of clarification, it's JRR's genius and not Christopher which pulls this off. Just trace your way through LotR with such sections as 1) "Shadows of the Past", 2) meeting Gildor and the Elves in the Shire, and the ancient feeling they bring, 3) the mystery of Aragron with the blade that is broken, 4) Aragorn's tale of Luthien while they are on Weathertop, 5) the ancient feel of Imladris, 6) the oldness of Moria, 7) the age of Lothlorien, 8) The huge statues of Gondor above the Falls of Rauros... the list goes on and I've probably missed a good dozen or two references to ancientness in the book. Heck, you even got it in The Hobbit with the Lonely Mountain, King under the Mountain, the Arkenstone, the old, old Elvish swords they find in the Troll's treasure-trove, and so on.

Galorme · 09-02-2002, 04:07 AM

Christopher does something amazing in the Lost Tales and a few others of the histories, and i dont know if it is intentional or just a product of his style of writing, but every now and again, in an obscure annotation or note at the end he will just say in a very formal tone "connected to this is a note that says:" and it will be followed by something amazingly remote and ununderstandable such as "they awoke the sleeper in the tower of Valinor". It is wonderful.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-02-2002, 06:49 AM

It's just his writing style. Christopher Tolkien has been attempting a very ambitious piece of literary archaeology with the Histories, and this has necessarily been conducted and presented in an academic fashion. The footnotes and obscure connections are a result of the incredibly disordered and fragmentary state of the Professor's notes at the time of his death and his editor's attempts to leave out as little as possible. Anthropological studies of natural myths take much the same approach to their material.

Tirned Tinnu · 09-08-2002, 08:49 PM

When I read Tolkien I see Faery-tales retold as well as History retold. Things that come to mind off the top of my head:

1. Luthien's escape via her hair: Very Rapunzel, don't you think? And Beren's misery after gaining the Silm, very like the Prince in Rapunzel. He is blinded and is cured by her tears. Also, Rapunzel has two children in the lands of enchantement - Rapunzel and The Prince enjoy a sort of life after life, as Beren and Luthien do. Wierd...

2. The Ainur and the Valar: Nordic Gods stuff (not to mention the Finnish Sagas, which I'm just reading.)

3. The Dead Marshes: English Folk Tale Will O'The Wisp

4. Aragorn: sort of Arthurian, The Man Who Would be Kingish

5. The Alkallabeth: Tir na n'Og, Atlantis-like

6. Ulmo: Manannan Mac Lir-ish to be sure

7. Earendil: Almost Leif Ericksen-like

Oh, I give up! I could spend days trying to take apart every legend, but I wont. You can see where this is leading! That's why I love Tolkien. He took ancient legends and shook them by the shoulders, waking them up so that they could be learned by new generations!
Hurrah for Faery-tales. Hurrah for JRR!

(By the way, there is a wonderful site that has the Finnish and Nordic Sagas up for your reading pleasure, it's even got Beowulf there...check it out at:
Sacred Texts Related To Tolkien's Works Site
I hope you like it. I love it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

09-01-2002, 03:55 PM	#1
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Ancients I am back from my holiday (is saying that spam under the new rules?). But this does serve a purpose other than marking the end of a absence I am sure none of you noticed. When i was away i was thinking a lot about how Tolkein (though I suppose it was more his son than JRR himself) managed to portray this amazing sense of old, lost knowledge. Especially the earlier histories, they create an impression of a world that was there, and now only fragments remain. Basically I want to hear what people think of this, comment on all the old tales, what is told and usually most critically what is left out. Wonderful examples are the tale of Earnedil and the glimpses of the later future of the Lonely Isle. There is a wonderful beauty in these story that is also shared somewhat with bits of the Notion Club Papers and most of the Drowning of Anadune. Any comments? Anyone have anything they can talk about, or add? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-01-2002, 06:37 PM	#2
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	In a way, it's kind of like our own world's history and knowledge... I am sure that Tolkien knew much more about Middle Earth than was ever written on paper... but as everything goes... what is not written down is lost... It makes me think of the part of the National Geographic Special that talks about Finland and their story songs... how there are only few now who remember them and none really learn them. So, it's sad to know that in a few years another piece of history is lost forever. It's just another thing that makes Middle Earth so real, because it is impossible to know everything about a place that has existed for thousands of years. Tolkien was the key to it all, and there are some things we will never know (both about Middle Earth and our own world). I agree with you completely about how it is very amazing. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

09-02-2002, 04:07 AM	#5
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Christopher does something amazing in the Lost Tales and a few others of the histories, and i dont know if it is intentional or just a product of his style of writing, but every now and again, in an obscure annotation or note at the end he will just say in a very formal tone "connected to this is a note that says:" and it will be followed by something amazingly remote and ununderstandable such as "they awoke the sleeper in the tower of Valinor". It is wonderful. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

09-02-2002, 06:49 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	It's just his writing style. Christopher Tolkien has been attempting a very ambitious piece of literary archaeology with the Histories, and this has necessarily been conducted and presented in an academic fashion. The footnotes and obscure connections are a result of the incredibly disordered and fragmentary state of the Professor's notes at the time of his death and his editor's attempts to leave out as little as possible. Anthropological studies of natural myths take much the same approach to their material. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

09-08-2002, 08:49 PM	#7
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	When I read Tolkien I see Faery-tales retold as well as History retold. Things that come to mind off the top of my head: 1. Luthien's escape via her hair: Very Rapunzel, don't you think? And Beren's misery after gaining the Silm, very like the Prince in Rapunzel. He is blinded and is cured by her tears. Also, Rapunzel has two children in the lands of enchantement - Rapunzel and The Prince enjoy a sort of life after life, as Beren and Luthien do. Wierd... 2. The Ainur and the Valar: Nordic Gods stuff (not to mention the Finnish Sagas, which I'm just reading.) 3. The Dead Marshes: English Folk Tale Will O'The Wisp 4. Aragorn: sort of Arthurian, The Man Who Would be Kingish 5. The Alkallabeth: Tir na n'Og, Atlantis-like 6. Ulmo: Manannan Mac Lir-ish to be sure 7. Earendil: Almost Leif Ericksen-like Oh, I give up! I could spend days trying to take apart every legend, but I wont. You can see where this is leading! That's why I love Tolkien. He took ancient legends and shook them by the shoulders, waking them up so that they could be learned by new generations! Hurrah for Faery-tales. Hurrah for JRR! (By the way, there is a wonderful site that has the Finnish and Nordic Sagas up for your reading pleasure, it's even got Beowulf there...check it out at: Sacred Texts Related To Tolkien's Works Site I hope you like it. I love it! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ September 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-01-2002, 07:03 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Just by way of clarification, it's JRR's genius and not Christopher which pulls this off. Just trace your way through LotR with such sections as 1) "Shadows of the Past", 2) meeting Gildor and the Elves in the Shire, and the ancient feeling they bring, 3) the mystery of Aragron with the blade that is broken, 4) Aragorn's tale of Luthien while they are on Weathertop, 5) the ancient feel of Imladris, 6) the oldness of Moria, 7) the age of Lothlorien, 8) The huge statues of Gondor above the Falls of Rauros... the list goes on and I've probably missed a good dozen or two references to ancientness in the book. Heck, you even got it in The Hobbit with the Lonely Mountain, King under the Mountain, the Arkenstone, the old, old Elvish swords they find in the Troll's treasure-trove, and so on.