Coat, Sword, Cloak....Hobbit? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 08:52 AM

As we all (should) know, Frodo was captured by the orcs in Cirith Ungol on March 13. Sam rescued him the 14th. Sometime in those two days, Frodo's elven-cloak, mithril coat, and Sam's "sword" were sent to Barad-dûr (since the Mouth of Sauron had them). The Mouth of Sauron presented these items to Gandalf on March 25....eleven days after Frodo escaped. Since all the orcs in the tower of Cirith Ungol were killed, no word of Frodo's escape got out, but wouldn't the lack of communication alert someone to the problems there?

So, after all this info, did Sauron know about Frodo? He probably did, considering the Mouth did....so, after he had learned of their escape (assuradely, a Nazgûl or an orc went to Cirith Ungol...and Frodo's body certainly wasn't there), why didn't he step up search efforts or something? Having the two spies loose in Mordor couldn't be that good, and Sauron (being the suspicious Maia that he is) should've put 2 and 2 together: why would some Halflings try to get into Mordor? Hmmm....the only two things that idiot Gollum knew...what were they? Ah, yes, "Baggins" and "Shire".

Was Sauron being stupid, or just overconfident?

Donisile Of Mirkwood · 09-02-2002, 08:59 AM

I myself thought about this and cannot think of any explantaion. But then again i am not very clever and have only read the series twice [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Don't forget though at this time there were the battles at Gondor and at the gates of mordor and his eye was drawn away.

Birdland · 09-02-2002, 09:44 AM

You know, you're right, Manwe. I had always wrote it off that Sauron wouldn't have sweated having a couple of hobbit spies running around in Mordor, considering the general opinion the Enemy had of Hobbits.

But he should have thought, "Those Hobbits!". I can only think that, as had been stated by Gandalf more than once, Sauron would never conceive that anyone would actually try to destroy the One Ring by carrying it into Mordor, and that Gandalf, Elrond, or one of the Kings of Men would try to wield it.

Of course, he did know that someone was putting the Ring on, clear up to Amon Hen. Did he realize that that "someone" was a Hobbit?

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 09:50 AM

Uhh....Yeah! And another thing....all those times Frodo wore the Ring! Or Sam in Cirith Ungol! How is Sauron so surprised when Frodo puts it on at the Sammath Naur???

(Thanks for the reminder about those, Birdland).

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

Tar Elenion · 09-02-2002, 10:51 AM

Not all the Orcs at Kirith Ungol were killed. Shagrat got away and brought the cloak, mail and sword to Barad-dur. Also Frodo and Sam were being looked for, they even have an encounter with two Orcs searching for them.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

Kuruharan · 09-02-2002, 11:31 AM

Shagrat brought the sword, cloak, and mail to Barad-dur on the 17th. He would presumably have given a description of the prisoner that he captured so Sauron probably knew what type of creature it was. Other than that he was probably not aware of what exactly this prisoner had been up to. The Mouth was rather vague in his remarks about the subject. It gave me the impression that he was trying to show off more knowledge than he (or his master) actually had.

Birdland · 09-02-2002, 11:38 AM

I'm sure he was trying to cover up the fact that a "mere" halfling had escaped from one of Sauron's strongest fortresses.

Ooooooh, I bet they were all in so much trouble!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 09-02-2002, 01:00 PM

I'm pretty sure that Shagrat was more concerned with blaming Gorbag for the entire fiasco than with presenting a decent report. We must also remember that Frodo and Sam had disguised themselves as Orcs in a country full of Orcs, and were deliberately avoiding camps and concentrations of military force; and that Gandalf, Aragorn et al were advancing on the Morannon with the sole purpose of convincing Sauron that they had the Ring. Mordor is in chaos: we see Orcs fighting amongst themselves on top of the normal disorganisation of armies on the move (I have no doubt that for this Tolkien drew heavily on his experiences as an officer in the Great War). Frankly I'm not at all surprised that two little Hobbits could get lost in the confusion, especially since they didn't want to be found.

As for the Mouth of Sauron: he's just trying to shake the confidence of the enemy, possibly even to force them to give up without a fight. Perhaps he was even hoping that someone would let something slip, but mainly it's a psychological-warfare technique that's as old as the hills.

Durialion · 09-02-2002, 02:08 PM

You have to remember a day or two later the Battle of the Seven Captains begun after he showed them the stuff. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Manwe Sulimo · 09-02-2002, 02:23 PM

Heh....corruption to the nth degree....no wonder Mordor lost both wars.

"Battle of the Seven Captains"? Don't you mean the Battle of Morannon?

Kuruharan · 09-02-2002, 06:09 PM

Quote:

I'm sure he was trying to cover up the fact that a "mere" halfling had escaped from one of Sauron's strongest fortresses.

I'm pretty sure that Shagrat was more concerned with blaming Gorbag for the entire fiasco than with presenting a decent report.

I rather suspect that Shagrat was put to torture to punish him for his failure and to make sure he got his story straight. (It's what I would do if I were Sauron). Remember that the tracker said that Shagrat would not be a captain anymore, maybe because he would not be alive anymore. I think that it's safe to assume that one way or another Shagrat gave an accurate report, Sauron does not seem the sort for someone to lie to and get away with it.

And evidently there were some Morgul orcs got out, so Sauron would also have the stories from them.

Morgoth Bauglir · 09-02-2002, 06:40 PM

He couldnt fathom why the hobbits would try to destroy THE ring of power. Think about it, dont you think that one of them would try to use the ring and destroy sauron that way?

He wouldn't- no he couldn't think of ANY reason to destroy it.

Lord Syslox of Emyn Beverli · 09-02-2002, 07:32 PM

If you read the exchange between the Mouth of Sauron and the Captains of the West you wil notice the Mouth is just trying to goad them into surrenderring.

Note especially when the Mouth gives the terms for suurender, Gandalf says something like "these are great terms for just one spy...bring forth the prisoner so we may have some surety on these terms." Then it says something to the effect that the Mouth was at a loss for words for a heartbeat. Obviously he couldn't bring the prisoner because he had escaped, so the Mouth covers up by saying "You crave surety, Sauron gives none." It actual says that Gandalf NOTICED the Mouth's lapse.

That may have influenced him in rejecting the terms, but im sure it was more the fact that he thought the quest was lost.

Belin · 09-02-2002, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!

--Sauron's words to Pippin in the palantir, March 5.

Maybe Sauron didn't pay attention to these hobbits because he already had a plausible idea about where the Ring was. Saruman had captured some hobbits, taken it from them, and subsequently been defeated. The Ring had then been captured by Aragorn & Co., which explained their otherwise insane behavior (as Squatter has mentioned).

So a couple of other stray hobbits wandered into Mordor besides.. big deal. The important hobbits, the ones with the Ring, had already been accounted for, as far as Sauron was concerned.

Then again, when the Orcs captured Frodo they seem to have still been under orders to look out for any hobbits and bring them Lugburz... but slowness of communication may have stopped the orders from being changed right away. Or maybe the search efforts WERE very intense and we just couldn't tell from out hobbit's-eye view.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Raefindel · 09-03-2002, 02:53 PM

In addition to Squatter's remarks, remember that Sam was never caught or even seen, at least by anyone who lived. They thought he was a "Great Elven Warior"

Galorme · 09-03-2002, 03:17 PM

Much the way that Melkor could not understand compasion because he had none, Sauron could not understand the love for the world and the selflessness of Frodo and Sam that drove them forward on their quest. I would make as much sense to Sauron for the White Council to destroy the ring as it would for you or I to shoot themselves in the foot. He could not understand someone turning down that type of power for the good of others.

Feanaro · 09-03-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

"So you have yet another of these imps with you!" he cried. "What use you find in them I cannot guess;but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly."

The Mouth of Sauron refers to Frodo as spy, and does so just again just a short while afterwards. I would agree then with the theory that Sauron believes the Ring to be with Aragorn and Co., having gained it from Saruman, and sees Frodo as nothing more than a spy--perhaps to search out Sauron's weakpoints as it would appear.

09-02-2002, 08:52 AM	#1
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Coat, Sword, Cloak....Hobbit? As we all (should) know, Frodo was captured by the orcs in Cirith Ungol on March 13. Sam rescued him the 14th. Sometime in those two days, Frodo's elven-cloak, mithril coat, and Sam's "sword" were sent to Barad-dûr (since the Mouth of Sauron had them). The Mouth of Sauron presented these items to Gandalf on March 25....eleven days after Frodo escaped. Since all the orcs in the tower of Cirith Ungol were killed, no word of Frodo's escape got out, but wouldn't the lack of communication alert someone to the problems there? So, after all this info, did Sauron know about Frodo? He probably did, considering the Mouth did....so, after he had learned of their escape (assuradely, a Nazgûl or an orc went to Cirith Ungol...and Frodo's body certainly wasn't there), why didn't he step up search efforts or something? Having the two spies loose in Mordor couldn't be that good, and Sauron (being the suspicious Maia that he is) should've put 2 and 2 together: why would some Halflings try to get into Mordor? Hmmm....the only two things that idiot Gollum knew...what were they? Ah, yes, "Baggins" and "Shire". Was Sauron being stupid, or just overconfident? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 08:59 AM	#2
Donisile Of Mirkwood Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 36	I myself thought about this and cannot think of any explantaion. But then again i am not very clever and have only read the series twice [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Don't forget though at this time there were the battles at Gondor and at the gates of mordor and his eye was drawn away. __________________ Let it not be said and said unto your shame that there was beauty here before you came.

09-02-2002, 09:50 AM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Uhh....Yeah! And another thing....all those times Frodo wore the Ring! Or Sam in Cirith Ungol! How is Sauron so surprised when Frodo puts it on at the Sammath Naur??? (Thanks for the reminder about those, Birdland). [ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 10:51 AM	#5
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 359	Not all the Orcs at Kirith Ungol were killed. Shagrat got away and brought the cloak, mail and sword to Barad-dur. Also Frodo and Sam were being looked for, they even have an encounter with two Orcs searching for them. [ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ] __________________ Tar-Elenion

09-02-2002, 11:31 AM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Shagrat brought the sword, cloak, and mail to Barad-dur on the 17th. He would presumably have given a description of the prisoner that he captured so Sauron probably knew what type of creature it was. Other than that he was probably not aware of what exactly this prisoner had been up to. The Mouth was rather vague in his remarks about the subject. It gave me the impression that he was trying to show off more knowledge than he (or his master) actually had. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

09-02-2002, 09:44 AM	#3
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	You know, you're right, Manwe. I had always wrote it off that Sauron wouldn't have sweated having a couple of hobbit spies running around in Mordor, considering the general opinion the Enemy had of Hobbits. But he should have thought, "Those Hobbits!". I can only think that, as had been stated by Gandalf more than once, Sauron would never conceive that anyone would actually try to destroy the One Ring by carrying it into Mordor, and that Gandalf, Elrond, or one of the Kings of Men would try to wield it. Of course, he did know that someone was putting the Ring on, clear up to Amon Hen. Did he realize that that "someone" was a Hobbit?

09-02-2002, 11:38 AM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I'm sure he was trying to cover up the fact that a "mere" halfling had escaped from one of Sauron's strongest fortresses. Ooooooh, I bet they were all in so much trouble!

09-02-2002, 01:00 PM	#8
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I'm pretty sure that Shagrat was more concerned with blaming Gorbag for the entire fiasco than with presenting a decent report. We must also remember that Frodo and Sam had disguised themselves as Orcs in a country full of Orcs, and were deliberately avoiding camps and concentrations of military force; and that Gandalf, Aragorn et al were advancing on the Morannon with the sole purpose of convincing Sauron that they had the Ring. Mordor is in chaos: we see Orcs fighting amongst themselves on top of the normal disorganisation of armies on the move (I have no doubt that for this Tolkien drew heavily on his experiences as an officer in the Great War). Frankly I'm not at all surprised that two little Hobbits could get lost in the confusion, especially since they didn't want to be found. As for the Mouth of Sauron: he's just trying to shake the confidence of the enemy, possibly even to force them to give up without a fight. Perhaps he was even hoping that someone would let something slip, but mainly it's a psychological-warfare technique that's as old as the hills. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

09-02-2002, 02:08 PM	#9
Durialion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 42	You have to remember a day or two later the Battle of the Seven Captains begun after he showed them the stuff. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Durialion the High Elf "I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo "So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf

09-02-2002, 02:23 PM	#10
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Heh....corruption to the nth degree....no wonder Mordor lost both wars. "Battle of the Seven Captains"? Don't you mean the Battle of Morannon? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

09-02-2002, 06:40 PM	#12
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	He couldnt fathom why the hobbits would try to destroy THE ring of power. Think about it, dont you think that one of them would try to use the ring and destroy sauron that way? He wouldn't- no he couldn't think of ANY reason to destroy it.

09-02-2002, 07:32 PM	#13
Lord Syslox of Emyn Beverli Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tol Hardor Posts: 15	If you read the exchange between the Mouth of Sauron and the Captains of the West you wil notice the Mouth is just trying to goad them into surrenderring. Note especially when the Mouth gives the terms for suurender, Gandalf says something like "these are great terms for just one spy...bring forth the prisoner so we may have some surety on these terms." Then it says something to the effect that the Mouth was at a loss for words for a heartbeat. Obviously he couldn't bring the prisoner because he had escaped, so the Mouth covers up by saying "You crave surety, Sauron gives none." It actual says that Gandalf NOTICED the Mouth's lapse. That may have influenced him in rejecting the terms, but im sure it was more the fact that he thought the quest was lost. __________________ "Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart" - Faramir to Eowyn. "A warrior should have more skills and knowlegde than only the craft of weapons and slaying" - Faramir

09-03-2002, 02:53 PM	#15
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	In addition to Squatter's remarks, remember that Sam was never caught or even seen, at least by anyone who lived. They thought he was a "Great Elven Warior" __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

09-03-2002, 03:17 PM	#16
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Much the way that Melkor could not understand compasion because he had none, Sauron could not understand the love for the world and the selflessness of Frodo and Sam that drove them forward on their quest. I would make as much sense to Sauron for the White Council to destroy the ring as it would for you or I to shoot themselves in the foot. He could not understand someone turning down that type of power for the good of others. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!