Why so little technological advancement in ME?

[Mhoram]

I would like to make a comparision of the technological advancements in our world versus those of Middle-Earth. First let me outline some dates of technological inventions in Europe.

700 - Stirrups
800s - Rotary Grindstone
800s - Iron first comes to Europe
900 - Horseshoes
1180 - The rudder
1270 - Paper first comes to Europe
1285 - Glasses
1320 - Small cannon

Notice that the elven, dwarven, and mannish technology is almost identical in the third age as it was in the first. From the end of the First Age to the end of the Third is about 6500 years. In all this time we see no obvious advancements in Middle-Earth, whereas here we went from fighting with swords on horses to having heat seeking missles in only 2000 years?

Forgive me for insisting we look at this, I know it is probally best ignored, but I can't resist.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Maybe Middle Earth does not have the energy resources that our Earth has (?) I don't know.
I say, who needs technology. If they are happy where they are then who cares. I must say, I am sure that Middle Earth has healthier air and the land is more beautiful overall [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

I think one thing to consider with this question also is the average lifespan of Middle-Earth's inhabitants. Mhoram has a good point - how come ME people are content to be riding horses when after a similar number of years the inhabitants of this Earth are trying to get into Space Tourism? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but consider that for ordinary human beings, 6,500 years represents a LOT of generations and thus a lot of new people who would become uncomfortable or bored with the technologies of their elders and try to think of new ideas, in the process stirring up conflict between old and new which would possibly add even more new thoughts into the creative ferment (sorry, hope that made some sort of sense). Whereas for the Elves, who as a race are one of the prime movers and shakers of Middle Earth, 6,500 years means that the Elves born that long ago are now maybe feeling a touch middle-aged. And even for the mortal races, the ones who are the most kingly and powerful are very, very long-lived. Elros, for example, chose to be mortal but that didn't stop him from living 500 years - for a race like that, 6,500 years would be our equivalent of the timespan stretching from the birth of Christ to, maybe, Alaric the Goth sacking Rome. Not that long a time, comparatively, and while there were technological advances they were of a fairly unspectacular sort.

It seems to me that it takes multiple generations to come up with technological change; not very many people of our generation would want to experience the technology of the 19th century, but then not many would probably want to experience the technology of the 22nd century either. People are generally most comfortable with what they grew up with, so drastic changes won't happen all at once; they'll creep in bit by bit as each new generation passes and the next grows to take the changes for granted. Same for Elves and Men; why should they want to change the ways that they grew up with? Of course, a lot of Middle-Earth races don't live much longer than we do - but even hobbits are shown as generally reaching 80 or 90 (something we didn't often do, at least not until very recently) and they're the shortest-lived and least influential race in ME. Besides, they don't seem to cotton on to changes any more than Elves and Men do, even if they have less say in things [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

It's the result of too much interference on the part of the Valar. A combination of both well meaning interference, in bringing the elves to the west, siphoning off the most adventurous and creating a dependency on the Valar. Then the stunting effect of Morgoth's attempts at domination, bringing about a long dark age. Even our own dark ages set back technology that had been discovered during the Roman times.

Time itself does not produce improvement.

You also need talent, brilliance, and the freedom of circumstances to imagine means to improve things. Even the technological advances of warfare are produced in the peaceful space behind the front lines.

Or here's another theory: they did have technological advances. See Celebrimbor and magic rings. Silmarils. Moon-letters. Isildi.

What makes us think technological advancement would naturally mimic our own? Isn't that a bit egotistical?

Fun topic, Mho.

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[KingCarlton]

I am going to look at it from outside the story...from the writers' point of view.

Why does it take so long for a civilisation to advance in such fables? Well, it has to do with the uniqueness of the story in which a set time and place is very important...

A story doesn't take a life time to happen.
We read it in a few hours and it may span a few thousand years but if the changes, as they are in real time, were to be mentioned they would be very drastic and seem too fast while reading the tale.

I would like to draw your attention to another such fantasy fable, George Lucas' "STAR WARS" - Now here we are shown that technological achievements are almost the exact same in whichever time a story is set, some of which are four thousand years apart. This holds on to and regenerates the uniqueness of the story. A sense of feel to the other world a story creates for the reader.

Now for the exact opposite, take a look at the movie " THE TIME MACHINE" where real time changes are shown at a dramatic accelerated rate, which is great for this story as it deals with such.
I wouldn't want that to happen with every story; it will take away the escapism value from it.

Hell, then every writer will be read as James Michener, who is good reading, but not for the average fanatastic journey fans.

I don't think that the fellowship riding vehicles LIKE dirtbikes and the Uruk Hai/ Orc Army chasing them on vehicles LIKE Harleys and armed with weapons LIKE Pump-Action Shotguns would be very Middle Earth-lIke at all.


~sitting down to write the next bestseller~

Know Peace

[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

Many of the advances that we have made in technology, certainly in the last 100 years have been based on a greater understanding of what it is that makes the world around us work. Radios, televisions, computers, medicines etc are all based on scientific principals and without our current understanding of physics, chemistry and biology, we would not be able to comprehend, let alone create them. If ME does not run on the same principles as our own universe (which it clearly does not), our technologies might not work on ME. Magic is a good example of this. Magic on ME works and everyone seems to accept this. Magic in our universe does not work and if I started to work magic, people would like for a scientific explanation. similarly, an internal combustion engine or gunpowder might not wotk on ME, because the universe does not operate in a way which would allow it to.

[Rimbaud]

For the vast majority of people, technology is not comprehendable. The World has become a planet of button-pushers. What you do not comprehend can be called magic. I have very little idea of the magic that puts my words on your screen (yes, your screen) even though I am aware of some of the physical precepts that dictate that reality. So my convoluted point is simply that magic is as real today here than in any fiction. We have wizards in our society, for they control forces the masses do not understand.

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Earendilyon]

Mhoram, the last 500 years or so of our history (and especially of the West) are exceptionally compared to the thousands years of history before. Because of some reason, Man began inventing new things, improving them, improving the improved articles and so on, till we're at the level we are now. I'm quite sure good historical studies have been dedicated to this phenomenon. I know for certain there are historical studies around on the topic why the West advanced so rapidly as compared to other regions of this earth (e.g. China and the Arabs were far more advanced than the West at the end of the Mediaeval period). Also remember: we may have this high level of technological advancement, the major part of the world's population hasn't. They live in the same circumstances as did their forebears a couple of millennia ago.
For some reason, the peoples of Middle Eart had not this internal drive for technological advancement. The Elves even wanted to hold what they had from the beginning. Like Tolkien himself, they disliked this technological "advancement".

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Earendilyon ]

[Rimbaud]

The beginning of the end was the dawn of agriculture. Until that time mankind had simply been a hunter/gatherer with a balanced population and a place in the world. This was the status quo for tens (some anthropologists convincingly argue hundreds) of thousands of years. When our forebears enslaved animals and developed the principles of 'territory' and 'possession' and the growing importance of numbers the world was irrevocably changed. This is why Tolkien's world is not a model to be compared against. He froze his world at a point where civilisation existed but had not yet subverted all else. Yet once a species learns to enslave land it does not stop. There are several very good essays on civilisation that I will hopefully return and add links to; including one which I believe used M-E as an interesting but eventually cynical [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] comparison.

Tolkien's genius was in creating believable species (Hobbits, most of the Elven race) who although had dominion over areas of the earth, had no interest in necessarily furthering that dominion. Were it only so. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

Maybe you may not understand how your computer works, Steph, but I'm sure if you looked you'd be able to find someone who could explain it to you. Finding someone who could explain magic (and I mean real magic, the kind that does not work in our universe) might prove slightly harder.

[Rimbaud]

Nev - I agree there is a distinct difference. Yet my point was simply that we are constantly surrounded by the unexplainable. Even man-made items of technology are quite alien to the lay-person, in terms of the 'how'.

PS I'm not too much of a pc naivete - Yet my intellectual understanding of the precept of how something should work is not the same as true understanding or firm knowledge.

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nevtalathiel -- Do you think so? Finding someone to explain science in Middle-earth would be just as difficult, no more and no less, than finding someone to explain true magic in our world. But, by the same token, just as I could visit a scientist in this world who would have an intellectual understanding of the underpinings of science, would not someone like Galadriel have that same understanding of the foundations of "magic"? She might not be willing to speak these words to me, any more than a government scientist would discuss his research in any number of sensitive areas.

But even if I could go to a scientist in my world and a practitioner of magic on Middle-earth for explanation, my understanding in both these areas would, of necessity, be limited. I have no background in either science or magic. Someone could explain to me something relatively simple (i.e, a process like photosynthesis), but there would be many scientific topics where I lack the background and/or the mathematical knowledge to understand more than the rank basics. And surely the same would be true of magic in Middle-earth.

Both science and magic can be used to alter the true nature of the universe. And, although you say that magic operates more in Middle-earth than science or technology, and this is certainly true, I feel that the actual use of magic in Middle-earth is much more limited than in many other fantasy worlds. Magic plays a role, but it is not the constantly used crutch which many other writers rely on to get them through their stories.

Tolkien, I believe, had a desire to let the natural world, the created world which had been ordained by the One on high, operate with minimal interference not only from technology, but even from magic itself. The only exception would be the type of magic actually built into the fabric of Arda. The writer, for example, does not entirely approve of the Elve's use of magic to forestall the natural process of change and decay. And how many times does Gandalf elect to operate as a teacher rather than a magician?

Another question is what do we mean when we use the word "magic"? I am more certain of the meaning of technology, perhaps because I live in a technological world. The hobbits, for example, do not overtly employ "magic", but their relation to the earth--as seen in their dwellings, their sustenence, and even the way they walk upon the soil,-- verges on a magical connection with the natural world.

It could certainly be argued that Sauron and, even to a greater degree, Saruman are guilty of abusing both science and magic in order to try and alter the nature of the world. Tolkien condemned such acts. So Middle-earth may advance a bit more slowly because such abuse was seen as clearly contrary to the purpose and intent of the created world. Perhaps, in the context of Middle-earth, it's just better to go slow. And is that so terrible an assumption given the problems we have created with technology in our own world?
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Ibun_Clawarrow]

It seems to me that in ME that have "magical technology." In the Silmarillion, it mentions that a lot of skillful things were made by the Noldor in Valinor, but were subsequently lost. Personally, I think that it would be pretty cool to have something like a Silmaril. So perhaps many advances were made, but were lost. Or the elves made scientifc progress but hid them from the other races, like in imperial China. It's an interesting question.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I tend to think technological advancement comes from individuals as well as a supportive society (read peaceful and wealthy) rather than simply being a factor of time. Add to that the influx of fresh ideas from differing cultures, as well as the freedom and resources to develop them.

Research shows that the British Empire edged out France as a world power because they produced staples, essentials, while France undermined their own economy by focusing on luxury items (very profitable for individuals, but not a stable base for the country as a whole).

Technological advancement in the US was based on the exploitation of massive untapped natural resources. One example: the entire state of Michigan was covered in old growth hardwoods the size of what we only find in the National Redwood forest today. It was denuded in only 100 years. Staples for the world. Not to mention our gold rushes. This is the basis for our technological advancement. Wealth. Outside of the revolution and the civil war, although the US has fought many wars, virtually none of them were on our own soil. Peace.

Most of the advancements you list, Mho, come from another wealthy and peaceful country, China. Stirrups, came to us from the Mongols. Paper and Gunpowder from China.

So, using our own world as an example as you do here, and three requirements:
1) indepedence and will to change (advancements were not made by the west until the shackles of the feudal system was removed)
2) wealth to do so
3) peaceful circumstances, time to do so

.. in Middle Earth, where would the technological advancements come from?

Gondolin had peace and wealth for a time, but little contact with the outside world. So their advancements would never have gone beyond their realm, and there would have been little impetus to change.

Moria, the dwarves, ah, they did have technological advancments, the delving and tempering of mithril. Their society was hampered by an inconvenient balrog or so. Goodbye peace.

The race of men were vassels to either Morgoth, Felagund, or the Valar, and later Sauron. Numenor and the elves were vassals to the Valar. Sorry. Even well-intentioned, it caused both the elves and the Numenoreans to look to the Valar as the source of knowledge. Feanor and Celebrimbor were exceptional in a culture that looked to the Valar for answers.

And while the wealth and power of Numenor increased, again we have the problem of will. They yearned for Valinor. Their technology did advance, especially their navy, but they were like the society of ancient Egypt, obsessed with death.

Actually, I can't say that the lack of technological advancement is a bad thing necessarily.

Certainly not when I look about the open spaces of Michigan and picture the forest it once was.

But then, that is an Entish sentiment, isn't it?

[Starbreeze]

Hmm. I don't know the whys and wherefores of this, but I think that if the people of Middle Earth saw what our Earth has become with all this technological advancement, they would not want to change what they've got. I mean, the wars and hatred in Middle Earth between the Light and the Dark are already terrible enough. as we have seen with the War of the Ring as an example, imagine what it would be like if they had nuclear missiles and weapons like that! The whole of Middle Earth would be wiped out within seconds of them being invented. (ok, so maybe slight exaggeration but you get my point). The elves were already beginning to leave Middle Earth, and the technological advancements, which would bring with them destruction, pollution and fueding between different parties of people, would only drive them away faster.
Personally I am glad that Middle Earth has not advanced beyond the point it has reached as for me it would spoil the sense of freedom I get when I read it, being able to escape from the materialism of this would into ME where that issue is considerably less.
Also, look at it this way, From what people have been saying they are looking only from around First Century AD to about this point in time, but consider all the advances mankind didn't achieve before then, in the BC years. Millenia went by with barely any advance, save the occasional evolutionary tactic resulting in a new species of fruitfly, being made, may be Middle Earth is still at this stage. If you think about it the past 2000 years for man kind have been a little rushed, inventions everywhere you turn, thousands of scientific breakthroughs, but before then we were hard pushed just to invent the wheel.

There, rambling over! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Orodhromeus]

I've followed this discussion with great interest. Middle-Earth's story spands over 7000 years. 7000 years ago the first city at Mesopotamia was yet to be built! It's hard to believe that things would stay so still over so long of a period in M-E. Europe has gone through some similar development, but in a less long period: with Greek & Roman civilizations humanity reached its peak at the period. Not counting the First Age, it was the same with M-E when Numenoreans arrived. Then Europe went through the Dark Ages, when technology was forgotten & life standards dropped instead of increasing. At the beginning of the Third Age, many things were forgotten, Numenorean buildings were left to ruins, Arnor faded & Gondor survived with a Steward. In the Renaissance, the lost knowledge of the Ancient times was rediscovered and a prosperous era began. It might be likewise with the beginning of the Fourth Age and the return of the King of both Arnor & Gondor.
That's for the approximated parallel...
Now, if M-E's timeline was reduced to half, things would be more logical: SA & TA would be 1500-1700 years long, which is a long enough period for as many changes to occur. Maybe less king successions, but despite men's longer lifespan at the time it still is long. Maybe the elves, the leaders of M-E during FA & SA, contributed a lot in slowing technological development a lot. With their departure begins the Dominion of Men, and technological discoveries which would bring to an uninteresting (for Tolkien & the story) industrial era like today's.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Interesting question, and I ain't done this in a while (Damn real world, ya know, work, kids, yada, yada, yada).

Anyhoo, I would first point out that although the First Age is nothing like the classical era and more like the early middle ages, it is also in some ways comparable to pre-Roman, Iron Age Europe of the Celts, Tuetons and so forth, in that there was not a lot of intense agriculture and so forth, wheras by the time Frodo its more like the High Middle Ages, without the economic and demographics. Didn't Bilbo and Frodo have a clock? I don't see one of this in Gondolin.

So, on the above basis you have about 3,000 years to compare to 7,000 years. Ultimately, JRR was shooting really for a lifestyle, metalurgy and so forth of the early middle ages, mistakenly labled the dark ages, specifically that of Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Britain.

Finally, with Elves and Dwarves who needs technology? The healing powers of some was remarkable, and I try not to think of it as "magic" but what they knew and understood of the world in ways we don't see, including Men and Hobbits. But as our technology today is truly magical. Then again, this computer is really something, but it can't do what the Dúnedain did with Amon Hen. And the Silmirils, heck Feanor was onto something trans-nuclear if you ask me.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Man-of-the-World, I mean, Wold, long time no see! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Transnuclear, eh? Since Feanor predated the all of the other advancements of ME, are we looking at a backslide at the time of the Exile of the Noldor, only slowly recovering to bring us Frodo's clock?

[Mister Underhill]

Methinks that if Fëanor had figured out how to split the atom, Angband (and maybe Valinor!) would have quickly been reduced to a smoking, fused-glass crater. Had an itchy "button" finger, that one did.

[Ithilwen]

Methinks that if Fëanor had figured out how to split the atom, Angband (and maybe Valinor!) would have quickly been reduced to a smoking, fused-glass crater. Had an itchy "button" finger, that one did.

Somehow, I don't think so, Mister Underhill. After all, a thermonuclear explosion might damage the Silmarils. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mister Underhill]

Ha! Damage the Silmarils?! I think old Fëanor might take a swipe at you if he was in earshot when you suggested that his baubles were anything but impervious. I can see the t-shirt now... How do you write "Nuke 'em all and then sift through the ashes for the Silmarils!" in Elvish?

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Well, maybe it's just because Tolkien thought that it would not be very clever if the Nazgûl would have been flying Hornet's instead of beasts and Eowyn would have shot the Hornet with bazooka.

Hmm, maybe I should make "Modern Middle-Earth" story. Frodo must destroy Sauron's secret code to his nuclear weapons.

[avarerniliel]

From an author's stand point: It would simply make the story too short and not interesting enough. I mean, Frodo could just jump on his B-2 stealth bomber, fly over to Mt. Doom and drop in the ring...he's certainly rich enough.

But from my stand point: The citizens of ME enjoy their lives as they are (you know, if it weren't for the destruction of their living space and the possibility of them becoming slaves to evil). They are also functioning well off enough without technology, though they could probably use a few refrigerators. They've also had too much meddling in by higher powers to create such advanced technology.

On a totally unrelated topic: If it took us 60 years from the first flight to space travel, when are we going to accomplish light-travel?