Pippins Stone that started the Avalanche, or did it - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aragorn_The_King · 12-10-2002, 05:59 PM

In the mines of moria, was it Pippin and his foolish stone down the hole see when it hits the bottom move that awoke the "yrch" and balrog to atack them, or where they marked from there entrance? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

-Imrahil- · 12-10-2002, 06:07 PM

I believe it was Gollum in the books. Pippin did drop the stone into the well-type thing, it made Gandalf angry. But that is not what alerts the goblins to there presence.

And in the movies he does something of a similar sort, except this time its a whole suit of armour and it makes a large amount of noise in comparison to the stone, and he does it in Balin's tomb room. This is changed from the book and Jackson makes us think its his new armour dropping incident that alerts the goblins to the fellowships presence.

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

Kalimac · 12-10-2002, 11:28 PM

I'm not sure there is an answer to that one - none of the Fellowship would ever really be able to know whether it was the stone or not, though it's understandable that they'd guess it was, considering the tom-tap, tap-tom noise that started right after Pippin dropped it. Tolkien doesn't ever specify, possibly because it's not really *that* germane to the story what started it, just that it happened. Maybe it was the stone; on the other hand, maybe some nasty creature happened to overhear some random whisper or other and hastened off to spread the news to its fellows down below. If I had to bet I'd say the stone, but there's no way to know.

Incidentally I don't think it was Gollum; he'd been following them for a few days already, it would be a little strange for him to wait until they were almost out of there to spring the trap. Also, what good would it do him? Gollum is terrified of "Orcses" and wouldn't go seeking them out when there's no conceivable benefit for him. And there wouldn't be in this case; what would having the Fellowship be attacked do for him? It would mean that very likely the Ring would be captured by the Orcs, and good luck getting it back from them (since they have a highly un-Frodo like policy on letting pity stay their hands). Furthermore it could mean the possible destruction of his escape route, and indeed the main way out was destroyed. It's not clear how Gollum got out of the mines afterwards, but we can be pretty sure that it was more work than simply scampering over the bridge would have been. Gollum's best policy was to sneak along quietly and hope to catch Frodo alone and without fanfare.

Birdland · 12-11-2002, 12:05 AM

I always wondered about that little "incident", myself. I mean, they all knew there might be goblins in the mines, and that silence was of the essence. And yet there goes good ol' Pippin - "doh-dee-doh" - chuckin' rocks down the well.

Was it a natural compulsion? Or did the Ring have something to do with it? The book states that "Pippin felt curiously attracted by the well", just as later he was curiously attracted by the Palantir.

Makes you glad the little schlemiel never got his hands on the Ring, or we'd all be talking Black Speech now.

Kalimac · 12-11-2002, 12:14 AM

Birdland - Pippin the schlemiel, I like it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (Though at that moment, Gandalf would probably have called him something rather harsher - a momzer, say). I have been wondering about the "curious attraction" - though if it was the Ring, it seems odd that it would broadcast long-distance like that; wouldn't Frodo have been the first to feel the compulsion to start throwing stones, even if he resisted it? Pippin the Lighthearted just has this weird affinity for evil; think about the Palantir - and he was about a thousand miles away from the Ring at that point. Maybe it's just the fact that he's the youngest and mentally still rather childish; how many children are tempted to tease a fierce animal (or stick a fork in the toaster, or whatever) just because they know they shouldn't? Maybe it's just that instinct coming out in him - he knows silence is of the essence, so his system starts telling him "Make noise! MAKE NOISE NOW!" just to see if anything will happen. Similar with the Palantir; it's forbidden, so he wants it.

Birdland · 12-11-2002, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Maybe it's just the fact that he's the youngest and mentally still rather childish

"Childish" is the word, and then some. I can picture standing before a contrite Pippin and screaming:

"Why did you do that!"
(Pippin shrugs and sulks) "I dunno."

And suddenly Pippin seems like the perfect rationalization for Periannath infanticide.

But you can't really think that Pippin was that dense, or self-involved. I mean, after facing up to Dark Riders and Barrow-Wrights, you'd think that he would "get it" by then.

I can only think that Tolkien was suggesting that - somehow or other - Pippin was more susceptible then most to the "will" of the Dark Forces. That somehow or other they could influence him to do things that might put the company in jeopardy, even though he could not be compelled to do actual evil. Gandalf did his best day of work when he decided to take Pippin with him to Minas Tirith, far away from Palantirs, Rings, and other magical elements.

Hmmmm...That brings up an interesting speculation: maybe Pippin had some "magical" inclinations, but like the Sorcerer's Apprentice could not exert any control over these inclinations? Just a thought.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Diamond18 · 12-11-2002, 01:09 AM

He was a Took. Just look back at "The Hobbit"...every time Bilbo displays his Tookish side, he's doing something daring, brave, foolhardy, etc. By saying "Fool of a Took" Gandalf was, I think, saying "I should have known!"

So, yes, Pippin is more susceptable by nature to contrainess...it's in his blood. Tooks are the "not quite hobbitlike" hobbits, who are attracted to adventures and the like. So Pippin is attracted to the strange, forbidden and mysterious things in life.

Plus he's still in those irresponsible tween years (and Tolkien was talking about Frodo when he mentioned that...you can triple it for a Took!) so yes there's that great deal of childishness in him. Gosh, I know a few teenage boys who would do anything to get people to look at them. I think of Pippin as the teenager of the group.

The things Pippin learns in the course of the book is how to curb and properly channel his nature. This isn't something that he can learn in one lesson...I think it really took that "Interview with the Dark Lord" to make him realize the dangers of following every compulsion. Hard-headed little hobbit that he was, these lessons had to be learned the hard way and hammered through that thick skull. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But as to the original question of whether or not the stone throw really caused the mess with the orcs and the balrog...it's hard to say. I think that by Tolkien even putting that in the story, it must mean that it did. Why bother with it otherwise? Just to develop Pippin's character? Maybe, but....

On the other hand, what's a little stone, anyway? It wasn't like the movie in which the skeleton and the chain and the armour made a lot of noise for a long time. A stone going "plink" could very well just be a fellow orc walking along a passage. Why gather an army and go looking for something that probably isn't even there?

Ah, I fear in the end it's just one of those mysteries that Tolkien liked to leave unanswered. It makes his books more real when there are certain questions that just can't be answered, IMHO.

I could talk all night about Pippin. I wish I was a Took! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aragorn_The_King · 12-11-2002, 11:46 AM

Thanks guys it is amazing what some brainstorming can do.

elfling · 12-11-2002, 10:04 PM

I fel the Fellowship was marked from the beginning, the loud entrance they made had to be noticed and poor Pippin may have just let them know where they were in the mines. I don't think Gollum alerted anyone, he wanted the Ring too badly to trust a group of orcs and the balrog was way out of his league.
An interesting point was mentioned as to wether Pippin may have some magical tendencies. I thought he might, esp. when i read thwe part where it says in his mind he saw Strider looking to the ground when the three were trying to track Merry and Pippin.
He was also very susceptible to the palantir also. I haven't found any Tolkien words on it but he may be alittle gifted with some sort of awareness or sensitivity ot things around him. Of course his reactions are not always so good and that may be due to his age, ect.

Arwen Imladris · 12-12-2002, 01:07 PM

It seems to me that the attack on the fellowship was fairly well planned (in the books). They had orcs, trolls... The fire in the main hall must have taken some planning. To muster that many orcs in one place must have taken a bit of time. I don't think that the stone could have caused the attack. They must have already been prepared when pippin dropped the stone. The stone micht have been a final signal to where the fellowships exact location was, but that is all.

12-10-2002, 05:59 PM	#1
Aragorn_The_King Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Inside the LOTR book Posts: 34	Pippins Stone that started the Avalanche, or did it In the mines of moria, was it Pippin and his foolish stone down the hole see when it hits the bottom move that awoke the "yrch" and balrog to atack them, or where they marked from there entrance? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] __________________ If you study into a field, there are worlds of information waiting to be found.

12-10-2002, 06:07 PM	#2
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	I believe it was Gollum in the books. Pippin did drop the stone into the well-type thing, it made Gandalf angry. But that is not what alerts the goblins to there presence. And in the movies he does something of a similar sort, except this time its a whole suit of armour and it makes a large amount of noise in comparison to the stone, and he does it in Balin's tomb room. This is changed from the book and Jackson makes us think its his new armour dropping incident that alerts the goblins to the fellowships presence. [ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ] __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-10-2002, 11:28 PM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I'm not sure there is an answer to that one - none of the Fellowship would ever really be able to know whether it was the stone or not, though it's understandable that they'd guess it was, considering the tom-tap, tap-tom noise that started right after Pippin dropped it. Tolkien doesn't ever specify, possibly because it's not really that germane to the story what started it, just that it happened. Maybe it was the stone; on the other hand, maybe some nasty creature happened to overhear some random whisper or other and hastened off to spread the news to its fellows down below. If I had to bet I'd say the stone, but there's no way to know. Incidentally I don't think it was Gollum; he'd been following them for a few days already, it would be a little strange for him to wait until they were almost out of there to spring the trap. Also, what good would it do him? Gollum is terrified of "Orcses" and wouldn't go seeking them out when there's no conceivable benefit for him. And there wouldn't be in this case; what would having the Fellowship be attacked do for him? It would mean that very likely the Ring would be captured by the Orcs, and good luck getting it back from them (since they have a highly un-Frodo like policy on letting pity stay their hands). Furthermore it could mean the possible destruction of his escape route, and indeed the main way out was destroyed. It's not clear how Gollum got out of the mines afterwards, but we can be pretty sure that it was more work than simply scampering over the bridge would have been. Gollum's best policy was to sneak along quietly and hope to catch Frodo alone and without fanfare. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-11-2002, 12:14 AM	#5
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Birdland - Pippin the schlemiel, I like it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (Though at that moment, Gandalf would probably have called him something rather harsher - a momzer, say). I have been wondering about the "curious attraction" - though if it was the Ring, it seems odd that it would broadcast long-distance like that; wouldn't Frodo have been the first to feel the compulsion to start throwing stones, even if he resisted it? Pippin the Lighthearted just has this weird affinity for evil; think about the Palantir - and he was about a thousand miles away from the Ring at that point. Maybe it's just the fact that he's the youngest and mentally still rather childish; how many children are tempted to tease a fierce animal (or stick a fork in the toaster, or whatever) just because they know they shouldn't? Maybe it's just that instinct coming out in him - he knows silence is of the essence, so his system starts telling him "Make noise! MAKE NOISE NOW!" just to see if anything will happen. Similar with the Palantir; it's forbidden, so he wants it. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

12-11-2002, 01:09 AM	#7
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	He was a Took. Just look back at "The Hobbit"...every time Bilbo displays his Tookish side, he's doing something daring, brave, foolhardy, etc. By saying "Fool of a Took" Gandalf was, I think, saying "I should have known!" So, yes, Pippin is more susceptable by nature to contrainess...it's in his blood. Tooks are the "not quite hobbitlike" hobbits, who are attracted to adventures and the like. So Pippin is attracted to the strange, forbidden and mysterious things in life. Plus he's still in those irresponsible tween years (and Tolkien was talking about Frodo when he mentioned that...you can triple it for a Took!) so yes there's that great deal of childishness in him. Gosh, I know a few teenage boys who would do anything to get people to look at them. I think of Pippin as the teenager of the group. The things Pippin learns in the course of the book is how to curb and properly channel his nature. This isn't something that he can learn in one lesson...I think it really took that "Interview with the Dark Lord" to make him realize the dangers of following every compulsion. Hard-headed little hobbit that he was, these lessons had to be learned the hard way and hammered through that thick skull. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But as to the original question of whether or not the stone throw really caused the mess with the orcs and the balrog...it's hard to say. I think that by Tolkien even putting that in the story, it must mean that it did. Why bother with it otherwise? Just to develop Pippin's character? Maybe, but.... On the other hand, what's a little stone, anyway? It wasn't like the movie in which the skeleton and the chain and the armour made a lot of noise for a long time. A stone going "plink" could very well just be a fellow orc walking along a passage. Why gather an army and go looking for something that probably isn't even there? Ah, I fear in the end it's just one of those mysteries that Tolkien liked to leave unanswered. It makes his books more real when there are certain questions that just can't be answered, IMHO. I could talk all night about Pippin. I wish I was a Took! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-11-2002, 12:05 AM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I always wondered about that little "incident", myself. I mean, they all knew there might be goblins in the mines, and that silence was of the essence. And yet there goes good ol' Pippin - "doh-dee-doh" - chuckin' rocks down the well. Was it a natural compulsion? Or did the Ring have something to do with it? The book states that "Pippin felt curiously attracted by the well", just as later he was curiously attracted by the Palantir. Makes you glad the little schlemiel never got his hands on the Ring, or we'd all be talking Black Speech now.

12-11-2002, 11:46 AM	#8
Aragorn_The_King Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Inside the LOTR book Posts: 34	Thanks guys it is amazing what some brainstorming can do. __________________ If you study into a field, there are worlds of information waiting to be found.

12-11-2002, 10:04 PM	#9
elfling Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: asheville,nc Posts: 86	I fel the Fellowship was marked from the beginning, the loud entrance they made had to be noticed and poor Pippin may have just let them know where they were in the mines. I don't think Gollum alerted anyone, he wanted the Ring too badly to trust a group of orcs and the balrog was way out of his league. An interesting point was mentioned as to wether Pippin may have some magical tendencies. I thought he might, esp. when i read thwe part where it says in his mind he saw Strider looking to the ground when the three were trying to track Merry and Pippin. He was also very susceptible to the palantir also. I haven't found any Tolkien words on it but he may be alittle gifted with some sort of awareness or sensitivity ot things around him. Of course his reactions are not always so good and that may be due to his age, ect. __________________ And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night...All shall love me and despair!

12-12-2002, 01:07 PM	#10
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	It seems to me that the attack on the fellowship was fairly well planned (in the books). They had orcs, trolls... The fire in the main hall must have taken some planning. To muster that many orcs in one place must have taken a bit of time. I don't think that the stone could have caused the attack. They must have already been prepared when pippin dropped the stone. The stone micht have been a final signal to where the fellowships exact location was, but that is all. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."