The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-18-2000, 11:25 AM   #1
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring Magic in Middle-earth

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 38
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
As requested: a real quick analysis.

Ok, here's what we got from Tolkien.
Two types (or main modes of uses) of magic mentioned; Dominance and Preservation (or slowing of decay)
Preservation and Dominance from LETTERS #131
Melkorian element from MYTHS TRANSFORMED VII section (ii)
Definition of uses of Matter of Arda for magic and conditions of evil intent from ATHRABETH Author's note 10.

That's pretty much it for actual info.
Everythin else is now like speculation on these points and (stayin within this criteria) I'll, speculate real quick like.

Ok, down the road of speculation that goes on and on we go (shall we stop and smell some flowers?)

Some Sauronic use of Preservation type magic; Foundations of Barad-dur, Near indestructability of One Ring, (Possible use on Orcs of Mordor considerin Gorbag's mentionin of the Great Siege), probably some of the partially inserted essence of Sauron in the One ring itself since Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo are described variously as well-preserved, stretched thin, and unchanged. Sauron doesn't seem to use this magic too much, but these examples (and ones below) are like just like quick ones.

Some Sauronic use of Dominate type magic: The One ring controllin the other rings, Command of troops from afar, Saruman's capture through the Palantir (possible) and prolly more than I care to think of at the moment.

Some Gandalfian use of Preservation type magic; Himself from aging normally while in mannish form as one. Can't really think of gandalf usin this one much.

Some Gandalfian use of Dominate type magic; Fire from nowhere, Fireworks, Word of Command, Words of Opening and prolly more.

Some examples of Elvish use of Preservation type magic; Lorien, Palantiri, Silmarilli and prolly more.

Some examples of Elvish use of Dominate type magic; Mirror of Galadriel, Elvish blades that light up, Elven lamps and prolly more.

Some examples of Mannish use of Preservation type magic; Orthanc, Stone of Erech, Dead men of Dunharrow and prolly more.

Some examples of mannish use of Dominate type magic; Daggers of Westernesse, Silent watchers, Healin with Athelas and prolly more.

Some examples of Ainur (Valar, Maiar) use of Preservation type magic; Valinor, Extension of the lives of the Numenoreans, Sleep of Yavanna and prolly more.

Some examples of Ainur (Valar, Maiar) use of Dominate type magic; Command of the Shadowy Seas, Creation of the Dwarves, Chain Angnainor and prolly more.

Now we can see about the stated catalyst for this magic. Tolkien states that the Melkorian element is present in all matter of Arda, with some elements havin like greater concentrations of it (Gold given as one example).

Interestin note here: a Hroa is made up of matter of Arda. Another interestin note: Several of these examples make use of the same materials. Gold, and Black Stone as ones that show immediately. Palantiri, Stone of Erech and Orthanc all described as Black Stone. Most of this magic makes use of material matter in some form or another. Very few seemingly don't: Words of Command, Words of Openin (debateable since the magic may be in the door itself) and Fire from nowhere. (Fireworks are easy since it's gunpowder; coincidentally a black powder for what that's worth). We are told that the Hroa is made up of Matter of Arda, so it's possible that Gandalf drew upon the elements within his body that contained the Melkorian 'Taint' of matter as the catalyst and maybe why is was so weak after the event. This also works for the Numenorean lifespan extention since it is an effect upon the matter of the Hroa and works well with the Mouth of Sauron bein ancient yet still alive (Sorceror, Necromancer, Wizard call them what you will I guess). This knowledge would classify as an Art I guess in the true sense of the word the same way that a fire may be created from wood or a sword may be created from iron ore. Does this mean it's 'magical'? Perhaps this is why Galadriel's statement at the Mirror was obscure. Seems to be just somethin learned.

Tolkien states that the intended use of 'Magic' (and he is quite doubtful of even that constrictive defining term) makes it 'evil' or 'good' not that magic itself is like evil or good. Most of this magic above uses combos of the two magics blended into one item. Palantiri (Preservation from the stone and Dominate from the mind speech), Deadmen of Dunharrow (Preservation of spirit in Arda and Dominate for conditional release), Wights tied to the gold of the mound (Preservation and Dominate) which Bombadil disperses outside to break the spell, and other such marriages of these magic types. Dominate is not simply of One will Dominating another, but of imposing one's will upon something, and how much this melds with Preservation magic is like questionable as they really seem to be the same, but maybe it's just the intended usage. Can't see where Eru steps directly into this equation at all.

So how was the quick trip around the lane? Did we wander far from the path?

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 06:19 PM   #2
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 366
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Saulotus, you should write an article on that topic. I was toying with the idea of that, but I think that you should. Go on, give it a go! Articles are great fun to write.

Usually keeping a lookout over http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabadMount Gundabad</a> and http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi The Barrowdowns</a> Middle-Earth Discussion Boards</p>
Gwaihir the Windlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 07:28 PM   #3
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 40
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Well if ya were toyin with the idea, run with it.

Articles ain't my thing.

I was just real quick like speculatin.
I suppose if I really sat down and thought about it, maybe I could.

But please; go with it.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 08:51 PM   #4
Tar Elenion
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 349
Tar Elenion has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

How 'ancient' do you think the Mouth of Sauron is?.
Tar-Elenion

</p>
__________________
Tar-Elenion
Tar Elenion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 09:44 PM   #5
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 41
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Old enough to have forgotten his name.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 10:33 PM   #6
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 368
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Saulot, I said that I was toying with the idea. Meaning that I wasn't really considering writing one, just sort of thinking about it. If you catch my meaning. I still think that you should write it though, and someone has to. It's a grerat subject. But how can I write it now, with all this info you've posted? You've thought of a hell of lot mmore than I have. Go on, write one, it comes easy to you once you get ogoing.

I'll only start writing if you tell me you are absolutely sure that you won't.

Usually keeping a lookout over http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabadMount Gundabad</a> and http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi The Barrowdowns</a> Middle-Earth Discussion Boards</p>
Gwaihir the Windlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2000, 10:51 PM   #7
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 42
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

I'm like absolutely sure I won't. No articles for me dude. Ain't got the time.
I'll be glad to respond to posts when I see them tho.

I check in sometimes durin the day when there's no activity around here, or if I wander home durin lunch or when I'm near the house I sometimes stop in, sometimes I check before goin to bed. Other than that this is still kinda new. Only been around these boards for a short time now (little over a month maybe? if even that). My schedule really is kinda busy tho. Realty is not real forgivin on time.

Dude, I was just speculatin real quick like on what little is known. I didn't even go into that much detail (in case ya didn't see the 'prolly more' endings to examples).

Go for it dude.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 03:15 AM   #8
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,058
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1288
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

If I get the time, I will take what ideas I get from here and put them into an article or series of articles. It's too big for one, I think..... hmmm.... keep discussing the magic so I come up with more ideas.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2000, 08:59 PM   #9
Tar Elenion
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 349
Tar Elenion has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 19
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Saulotus:
No better answer than that? Or you dont have any idea?
Tar-Elenion

</p>
__________________
Tar-Elenion
Tar Elenion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2000, 01:08 AM   #10
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 50
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Magic in Middle-earth

I always have better ideas than what I say in limited form dude. I try to stay within facts, even when speculatin.

Facts: The Mouth is a Black Numenorean who has forgotten his own name, has burning red eyes, a sorceror, is not a ringwraith, is very much alive and who entered the service of Sauron when Barad-dur first arose again.

Speculation:

Black Numenoreans aren't around anymore. From T.A. 1447 or before as the Numenoreans of Umbar are called Corsairs after the Kin-strife. Black Numenoreans are pretty much decimated and removed as a force in T.A. 933.

We are told that he took service when Barad-dur first arose again. Barad-dur is rebuilt in T.A. 2951 so this is a real unlikely time for the Mouth to enter his service as it's only like 70 some years prior and long after (2,000 years or so) the time of the Black Numenoreans.
The only other available time for him to enter service is S.A. 3320 when Sauron returns to Barad-dur as conqueror instead of outwardly defeated tyrant. This makes him a Second Age Black Numenorean and around 3,200 years old (old enough to have forgotten his own name).

I speculated on another board that Herumor might be a candidate for the Mouths identity. It would prolly be like more apt to be Fuinur tho. Herumor was a nice idea to tie in with the NEW SHADOW, but Fuinur is the more likely choice in all reality of named and important Black Numenoreans. The name Herumor is known in the Fourth Age, so it doesn't get as high marks as Fuinur. Both these are high ranking Black Numenoreans in the service of Sauron in the Second Age and are nearly equal in choice for the Mouths original name.

The red eyes are significant signs of Sorcery. I posted a quick concept on Magic use earlier, so this like more or less comes under that usage and rules since he is still mortal.

There ya go.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2000, 12:22 PM   #11
Suldaledhel
Eru's Gift
 
Suldaledhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Where pride pays silver and plays golden
Posts: 214
Suldaledhel has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 100
</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/pictures/edelfeldt/edel07.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Lets give it up for Saul!!!!!!!! <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> That was a great post you just made, and I too think it would make a great article you should write one if you get the time. Oh yeah and This Is my Hundreth post here at the downs!!!! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=""> Just a personal milestone for everyone <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

"See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at either <a href=http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad>Mount Gundabad</a> or at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=-</p>
Suldaledhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2000, 12:45 PM   #12
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 57
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Magic in Middle-earth

&gt;.and I too think it would make a great article you should write one if you get the time.&lt;&lt;

No articles. This is almost too much of a strain as is.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2000, 02:25 PM   #13
Mithadan
Spirit of Mist
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,211
Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Mithadan is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 81
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Magic in Middle-earth

I agree this is a great thread. Query - JRRT states that &quot;magic&quot; is, to an extent, inherent in the nature of elves, but absent from man's nature. How do men perform &quot;magic&quot;? In the case of men from the line of Elros, it could be explained as deriving from their &quot;half-elveness&quot;. But what about someone like Andreth, who lived in the First Age prior to the first union of elves and men?

</p>
__________________
Beleriand, Beleriand,
the borders of the Elven-land.
Mithadan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2000, 09:34 PM   #14
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 59
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Magic in Middle-earth

Better question: What about the Druedain?

The statement is in LETTERS #155.
However there is a footnote attached to the text done by Tolkien where he questions his own statement's veracity. 'But the Numenoreans used &quot;spells&quot; in making swords?'
Also of note is that this 'Letter' is actually a portion of a draft for Letter 154 where this portion of the letter was excised from the sent version.

I think if it were absent from man's 'nature', then several of his own plot devices fail, and why it may have been excised.



</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 12:19 PM   #15
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22
Man who forgot his name


Sorry, Saulotus, But no way. Nobody can withdraw a gift of Eru from his children. And about forgetting names. Don't you watch TV soap operas? There are lots of people forgetting their names and whatnot there

Mouth of Sauron must have entered his service in 2951 T.A. and was called ancient because by that time he was already old enough. Could well be he was one of the descendants of above named Black Numenoreans, or mere Gondorian, who got this name because of the darkening of his soul and his origins. And if he were really 3200 years old, than he would not have been alive, but wraith, or his, once human body, was rehoused or possesed by some other spirit. But it is clear that he was alive - than, as a conclusion - he entered Sauron's service openly no earlier than 2952 T.A. (and what was before? - maybe he was secretly worshipping Morgoth)
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 02:50 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 12:25 PM   #16
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 118
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

I think you are confused here.

1 Who said WITHDRAW?
2 No he MUST not have entered service at that time.
3 He was NOT a wraith.
4 Possession by another spirit is pure fantasy.

But believe what you will.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 12:44 PM   #17
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring Man who forgot his name

Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24


Still, imagine all those Gondorians and Numenoreans studying life for generations only to learn how to preserve dead. They achieved nothing, and here is one who is 3200 years old? how?
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:01 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 12:48 PM   #18
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 119
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and here is one who is 3200 y old? how?<hr></blockquote>
He was a sorceror. Stated as such in the text.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 01:03 PM   #19
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,058
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1365
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

I'd think that because the Mouth was a a sorcerer AND he worked directly with Sauron, he'd have an advantage over the Numenoreans when it came to life-sustaining magic.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 01:38 PM   #20
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring Man who forgot his name

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 26


So here are my arguments why can not he be so old:

1 Elros, blessed by Eru and all the Valar, lived only 500 years, half orc by the state of his fea, supported only by lesser maia, also not blessed by Eru any more, exeeded that 7 times? I dont believe that.

2.If he was so dear and useful for Sauron, that was worth prolonging (if that was possible see #1) his life, were are his deeds? what have he done during 3200 years?

3. There were lot of things which Sauron could not do, but were made by Children e.g Palantiri of the Feanor, Numenorean Stone of Erech . Numenoreans (and afterwords Gondorians) for generations were seeking the secret of life, but discovered only some methods of preserving dead. Sauron really was a professional in preserving dead, but were is evidence that life prolonging was his strong point? Only this Mouth of Sauron, wich speculatively is presumed long lived, wich is not elsewhere witnessed.

4 Mouth of Sauron had its own motives serving his Lord he desired to be a tyrant of western lands. Maybe, of course, those wishes were ones of his masters, but than he would not be so emotional. and, also, the evil will, for me, means one to devour all weaker wills so Nazgul have no individuality at all, but are mere slaves, parts of their masters will. Mouth of Sauron s individuality, which, despite his usefuleness for or affection on the part of Sauron, would be impossible to preserve during 3200 years of slavery. Sauron, as a personality of stronger will, would devour other, weaker wills around him. Thats why Nazgul perish with the ring. Mouth of Sauron shows some kind of independence, and there is no evidence that he died as soon as Sauron was destroyed. Conclusion his service in Saurons ranks could not have exeeded 70 or similar years.
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 02:58 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:14 PM   #21
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 122
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

1 This was by lawful decree of the Valar.

2 Who said SAURON prolonged his life?

3 Again who said Sauron? There seems to be no question of longetivity evidenced in Wizards and such living for many ages from indigenous populations who encounter them, even without substantiated statements indicating origin.

4 Who said slavery? This is voluntary service to achieve goals. Why would he die when Sauron was destroyed?

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:39 PM   #22
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 433
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

1: You missed the point. He was asking how the Mouth could live (and remain &quot;alive&quot;, unlike the Nazgul, which faded) for so long without the will of the Valar.

2: Men don't have the abilty to live as long as they like. Sauron is the only one that would teach him how or do it for him.

3: Wizards aren't Men, bad analogy.

4: He was speaking of the Nazgul as slaves. HerenIstarion is saying that if the Mouth was a slave for 3200 years he wouldn't have been as distinct as he was. The Nazgul all act the same because of Sauron's domination, they are puppets. The Mouth is still his own person. If the Mouth's life was prolonged by Sauron's power he would have died with Sauron, just as the Nazgul did.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahob bit</A> at: 9/29/00 4:41:08 pm
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:39 PM   #23
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring Man who forgot his name

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 29


1 Only after it was allowed by Eru

2 There is no one more fitting for such a deed, and even so I do reject the idea of him capable of life prolonging

3 Wizards were spirits of higher origin, maiar whos life begun before the beginnongs of the world

4 Who said voluntary service? have anyone witnessed any servant of Dark Lord to be a free man (elf, orc, dwarf, hobbit etc) at the same time?. Is not it stated, that Dark lord needs no free subjects, but slaves?
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:03 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:50 PM   #24
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 123
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

How could the Deadmen of Dunharrow be around unless by the will of the Valar in comparison?
How could Sauron create ringwraiths and wraiths without the will of the Valar?
The Valar are not Gods. They are guardians.

This whole thing began with Magic in middle-earth. This is knowledge gained from the 'Melkorian' taint of matter and its manipulation; in this case 'possibly' learned from Sauron, not specifically and irrevocably tied to the POWER of Sauron. Knowledge is not tied to someone else's power level. How would Galadriel learn magic from Sauron?

If I taught you preperation of gourmet cuisine, would you suddenly forget how when I died?

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:54 PM   #25
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring Man who forgot his name

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 30


Thank you, burrahobbit. Your comments hit the ten mark
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:04 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 02:59 PM   #26
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 434
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Sauron is the same kind of being as the Valar. He can do what they can do, pretty much. Galadriel is an Elf, she had no need to learn to use magic, it is part of her being. The Mouth is a Man. Men do not use magic the same way as Elves. If you taught me how to cook I wouldn't continue to use your power when I needed to cook. Sauron made the Rings, he put his power into them. When someone uses his Rings they are tapping his power. Once his power is gone whatever it was holding together (the Nazgul) fell apart.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 03:11 PM   #27
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 32


Still, if you tought me cooking 3200 years ago, and I became your pupil to achieve by cooking some goals of my own, would you expect me not to cook anything till the last year of those 3200?

Besides:

Quote:
Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world&quot; [Letters, 183]
I don't buy such a creature to keep somebody free in his will for 3200 years, even if he could (and wished) to prolong his life
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:09 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 03:31 PM   #28
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,058
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1367
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: man who forgot his name

But likewise it is hard to believe that Tolkien would make a point to highlite the 'length' of the Mouth's service if it had been a mere 70 years.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 03:44 PM   #29
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 35


Maybe those 70 years were those of open service, while before (and Numenoreans were long lived even without Sauron 'prolonging' their lives) he was worshipping him or Morgoth secretly.
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:06 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 05:34 PM   #30
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 435
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: man who forgot his name

70 years is a long time. Do you know of anyone that has had the same job for that long? Even worked at the same company for that long? About him forgetting his name, I can't speak for anyone else on this, but I hardly ever say or think my name. Months have gone by without me using it. Sometimes when asked for it I have to stumble for it. With such a high position I can understand if people just call him &quot;Mr. President&quot; If I had a position that gave me an alias for 70 years, it wouldn't surprise me at all if I had forgotten my name by the end. That's just my experience, everyone else might be completly different.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 09:17 PM   #31
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 124
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: man who forgot his name

Ok; let me get this straight.

You're contending the REJECTION of text, not only on the Mouth, but also on the origin of magic how magic works as stated by Tolkien, and replacing it with the assumption that since the Valar extended the line of Elros as a reward that all magic must be subsidized through them or another ainu?

That NOTHING can occur magicwise without an ainu's express approval and 'help'? Am I getting this correct on your contention here?

You're really equating the reward vs. individual corruption?
You're starting a Valaric clerical religion based on miracles of magic only they can sanction?

You're attributing all events of significance to the Valar? The removal of free-will and choice of destiny?
You're contending that Tolkien just didn't know how magic worked even when his text tells us how it does?

Thank you for the eludication.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 09:23 PM   #32
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 436
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: man who forgot his name

I didn't say that at all. Men can use some magic. Not as much as Elves and certainly not as much as the Ainur. Men can use some magic, but they can't live for 3000 years, not on their own. They don't have that kind of power.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 09:38 PM   #33
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 125
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

I have more time now.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1 only after it was allowed by Eru<hr></blockquote>
Right. The extention of the line of Elros, not any and all life extention (an unnatural act)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 2 there is no one more fitting for such a deed, and even so I do reject the idea of him capable of life prolonging<hr></blockquote>
So where did Isildur gain the ability to CURSE a people? According to you, he would need the permission of the Valar or Eru.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 3 wizards were spirits of higher origin, maiar whos life begun before the beginnongs of the world<hr></blockquote>
Nope, sorry dude. The Wizards (Istari) gained that name upon travelling to Middle-earth. Gandalf grows old slower than normal, he doesn't stay the same age. Wizard is NOT a translation of Maiar. It is of Men who perform magic (the fact that these men are cloaked maiar is irrelevant), otherwise the White council would have KNOWN who was in Dol Guldur (a Maia) instead of only suspecting some possible servant of Melkor.
Kinda why the big expedition to discover the truth.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 4 and who said voluntary service? have anyone witnessed any servant of Dark Lord and a free man
(elf, orc, dwarf, hobbit etc). Is not it stated, that &quot;Dark lord needs no free subjects, but slaves?<hr></blockquote>
Needs and has are different. The Black Numenoreans long ago WILLINGLY switched allegiance to Sauron in the days of Numenor. They do not need to be coerced, or ground into servitude. They serve willingly, for power.


</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 09:44 PM   #34
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 437
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Can you name a wizard that wasn't a maia?

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 10:54 PM   #35
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 126
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Magician/sorceror should have been used for MEN who use magic.
Checked/verified to make sure on this with LETTERS.

Wizard is not an equivalent term for Maiar.

The actual definiton appears in UNFINISHED TALES and LETTERS, and is quite specific that HEREN ISTARION is used for the five who went to Middle-earth, and that the translated term WIZARD (Istar or 'wise') is in regard to knowledge of the history and nature of the world itself, not a definition of Ainu status.

Under that criteria, I 'could' name anyone at the White Council as one immediately.

But irregardless, the usage of 'Wizard' in connection with men was incorrect. Elves do not seem to fall under this exclusion.

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 11:10 PM   #36
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 438
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Not all Maiar are Wizards, but all of the Wizards are Maia. Men could be sorcerors. I can not think of very many of these. Thw Witch-king (who used a bit of Sauron's power) comes to mind first. You would be incorrect in calling the entire White Council Wizards. &quot;The Wise&quot; is a very basic definition. Elves are not Wizards Sorcerors, or Magicians. They are Elves, and that is all.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2000, 11:44 PM   #37
Saulotus
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
Saulotus has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 127
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

All of the HEREN ISTARION are yes. There is a distinction.

I still have some problems with the casual usage of WIZARD when only Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan PERHAPS knew the truth (according to your theory). Especially applied to a man (as Gandalf clearly appears to be) by Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, and Elves, but this only seems to reinforce the 'wise' aspect. Hobbits, Dwarves, Men, and Elves generally seem to accept magic use from someone termed a wizard.

I've also come across references of Sorcerors as elves, so even that definition may be suspect as mannish only. See Sorceress of the Golden wood as an example (and Sorceror once applied to Gandalf so far).

</p>
Saulotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2000, 07:39 AM   #38
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 442
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Those references were made by people that were not well versed in magic.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2000, 12:23 PM   #39
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Ring

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 36


Quote:
Gandalf grows old slower than normal, he doesn't stay the same age.
So, here is stated that even a maia, when housed in hroa of man, grows old. So we have Gandalf, younger than Mouth of Sauron for some 1200 years, yet grey, and old, and weary, and Mouth, not maia but the man only - young enough and in full health and vigour. And, than, here is citation:

Quote:
And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose againLoTR book V p 197
When was that again? I reckon another citation will suit me well:

Quote:
2951 Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dur
LoTR, app.B p 464
On the same p 197 it is stated that Mouth of Sauron learned great sorcery, but it does not imply that it helped him to be abnormally long-lived

PS Mentioning wizards, I meant istari - maiar housed in man hroar, not any other, meant afterwords by men to be wizards
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

Last edited by HerenIstarion; 12-15-2004 at 03:13 PM. Reason: sweeping party
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2000, 03:58 PM   #40
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Ring

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 514
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
The boy who forgot his name

I just wanted to add something that I thought of a few weeks ago (and then forgot again, go figure). Up until the second grade I didn't know my first name. For as long as I could remember I had been called by my middle name. It is more than possible to forget your name, I did.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:03 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.