Was Tolkien Depressed?

[Arwen Imladris]

It just seems to me that all of his writings are so sad! Everybody dies! In LOTR, Boromir dies, Denethor dies, Theoden dies, Frodo is hurt beyond healing, The same things are true in the Silm and UT. What is wrong with him? Is he depressed? What do you guys think?

[Eruwen]

Well, I don't know if he was DEPRESSED or not. I just think he is a great writer that really knows how to capture the hearts of the readers. He does it so good that incidents like that keep the reader wanting to find out more. That's just what I think.

[Orome]

i think that i read that he did suffer from depression after WWI cause a lot of his friends died. I could be completely wrong though

[Kuruharan]

He was not what I would call a particularly joyous soul. He was certainly rather pessimistic, but it is impossible for us to speculate on whether he was any more depressed than your average human being. I really don't think so though. He had a tremendous outlet in his writings (as we can all clearly see).

Everybody dies!

Indeed. Probably one of the things that makes his writings so true, since very few people in the world don't die.

And this sort of thing is typical of the mythos that he was borrowing from.

(And besides, the Elves didn't die. They just went West and fell out of the story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Ulairi]

I dont see how Tolkien was depressed at all. This story was an epic novel, about a great war between good and evil. You can expect to end with "..and they all lived happily ever after." You have to realize people die in wars. The way you put it was "people died, he must have been depressed." Then about 90% of authors in history would have suffered depression.

I personally feel that the deaths in LoTR were tasteful and added to the emotion of the story and were not just gratuitous.

[Child of the 7th Age]

From everything I've read, Tolkien was a man of both very positive and very negative feelings. One moment he might be cheerful and happily involved in a project; the next moment he might be pessimistic and depressed.

There were probably several reasons for these swings in mood. First, he had experienced a major tragedy as a youth, losing both his parents by the age of 12, and then being shunted from place to place without plentiful funds. Because his mother had converted to Catholicism, the boys received little help from the rest of the family. When someone experiences a major tragedy like that, they begin to think that, at any minute, the rug might be pulled away again.

Secondly, as a committed Catholic, Tolkien viewed human history as one long defeat. Take a look at the Silmarillion, and you'll get a sense of this. He felt it was essential man stand up to battle evil and that sometimes there would be victories (i.e. the Ring quest), but that these victories would always be followed by other defeats. Because of man's limitations, final victory could only come at the end of time. This, of course, is only in regard to human history, not what he believed would be waiting for him "beyond the circles of the world" which was another story.

It's interesting that he chose to focus on the epics of the North, since these were also extremely pessimistic. Unlike Christianity which does stress free will, the northern mythology emphasizes the doom of both men and gods, how their actions were fated to fail but they still had to struggle valiantly on. These tales also suited Tolkien's often pessimistic nature.

If you add to this the many tragedies he witnessed in the 20th century, it's no wonder he was a pessimist. The death of his friends in WWI, the development of the atomic bomb, the destruction of the beautiful countryside by industrialization in his own country--all these reinforced his basic pessimism.

I have a great deal of sympathy for this view. If you realistically examine the history of the past 100 years, we have made great technical progress, but we have also inflicted more death and destruction than any other people before us. It's a little scary, and any sensitive person, which Tolkien was, is bound to be a bit apprehensive when we look at such a record.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I don't think Tolkien was depressed, but realist. I don't think it would be as good if none of the good guys died. It wouldn't have been real.

[Evenstar1]

To remain true to Catholic theology, in the Sil, Tolkien explains death as a gift from Eru to Man, not to the Elves, who received unending life. In fact, the Elves were envious of Man b/c it was a tedious thing to live forever! But Morgoth used the gift of death against Man and made Man envious of the Elves. Many Men came to see death as a curse.

But in the Appendix to LOTR, Aragorn understands this gift, when he explains from his own deathbed to a tearful Arwen, "But let us not be overthrown at the final test... In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!"

To me, this is Tolkien's way of explaining the optimism of the promise of Heaven to a world in which he was surrounded by pessimists and negativity.

[NyteSky]

Artistic type people are 4x more likely to suffer from depression than "normal" people. Nontheless, I don't think Tolkien was depressed. LotR is somewhat similar to Arthurian legend in style, or so it seems to me, and those types of tales were often filled with death and really pretty depressing to read. Compared to those Tolkien's works are happily ever afters. Essentially they do end well and none of the truly major characters in LotR die. (though there's Thorin in the Hobbit and I haven't yet read the Sil or any of those) So, I think he was just trying to make it realistic and not cheapen it by ignoring death.

[greywind]

Well, im not completly sure now, but... I have heard that Tolkien once said that of all the species in Middle-earth, he was a Hobbit.

It is not certain that this have anything to with this issue, but however, Hobbits does not strike me as a depressed people [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

He may just have been an really really humble Elf though [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

And there is also one certain thing you can find almost everywhere in the work of Tolkien, which he seems to make a big point out of, to me; and that is the difference between sorrow and dispair, and so on (like in the story where Aragorn dies, quoted earlier in this thread). It may be that he just worshipped sad but proud people, but as for me, I think there is something to it, though i realise that Hobbits are not really "sad but proud".

Also, if you analyse the characters in LOTR, none of the heroes fall under despair (save parhaps Frodo once or twice in Mordor?)... my point is that he clearly shows us why it is so important to carry on, and what will happen if you just give up trying. It is just like religion, keep ut the struggle and then recive your redemption.

His books and works are sad, yes... but not depressing. Not at any time does he shows us or gives us an excuse for dispairing or quitting. It remember this quote by Gimli, who kinda fits for the occasion: "Faithless is he, that says farewell when the road darkens".

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: greywind ]

[greyhavener]

Evenstar1 quotes "But let us not be overthrown at the final test... In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!" The "more" is the hope of the mortal for hereafter and the hope of the elves for the West; a hope that what is to come is a place for peace and reward.

Tolkien included in his work the Houses of Healing, the Greyhavens, the house of Tom Bombadil, the gifts of Galadriel, the reemergence of Gandalf from depths of Moria as well as the deaths of heroes. Perhaps he was depressed, but he was also hopeful.

Child of the 7th Age points out the Catholic perspective Tolkien brought to his work. Reading through the Bible (Hebrews 11 will give you a summary of those who suffer) and the lives of Catholic saints, people get fed to lions, burned at the stake, etc. I think this philosophy recognizes suffering as a part of life's process while always recognizing that there is a hope for something beyond present sufferings.

Gandalf explained to Frodo that the ring had come to him and that gave Gandalf hope. Frodo took on the responsibility to bear it with reluctance. Though the journey ravaged Frodo, there was always healing. Help and healing to continue on the journey was provided by Tom Bombadil, the elves at Rivendell, Galadriel's gifts, Sam, et al. until the mission was completed. Frodo was ravaged body and spirit and was beyond healing available in Middle Earth. There was then the promise that Frodo go to the Grey Havens and sail into the West. Always a provision in the midst of despair.

Tolkien may have been depressed but I don't think he was hopelessly depressed and there is a difference. Psalms 37:23-4 puts it like this "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord...though his cast down he shall not be utterly destroyed for the Lord holds him in His hand."

Tolkien was perhaps like the Hobbits riding among the Elves to the Grey Havens "filled with sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness."

I can't remember right, but I think Tolkien had some frineds who died in WW1 and WW2. So death probably played a bigger part in his life than it did in the lives of many of us.

Anyhow, death is nothing but natural. There's no problem in talking about it, the problem is if you get onsessed with it, which I don't think was Tolkien's case.

[greywind]

Well, greyhavener, I agree when you said that Tolkien was "filled with sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness", that was actually what I tried to explain in my last post. After all, that was what he filled his book with, and there is no doubt that this state-of-mind was in his mind a little "higher" that other... This is the romantic sadness, in witch he admired [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But that, however, is not what I would call beeing depressed...

[Elendur]

The answer to your question was answered by Tolkien already.

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

- A Short Rest, The Hobbit

Maybe you would be interested to read about Melkor dancing along the shoreline with Ulmo and having a freindly arm wrestling match with Tulkas, but most people wouldn't. I think you understand what Im saying...

Hope this helped.

[Bulelainwen]

I dont think that he was depressed, I think that he had people die because it gave more emotions to the story and i think that it makes you feel more part of the book.

[greywind]

Well, Elendur, good post! Great quote [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

However, I do not think that alone can explain the sadness he filled his stories with... like the longing for Aman. After all, theese wonderful Elves where a "dying" race, and Middle-earth was doomed to become dull and un-glorious. Personally I find it very sad.

Frodo has to leave Middle-earth. He is like a soldier in the "wars of reality", that had done the greatest, but most sacrificing and desperate deeds, to me. Those guys could not continue their lifes like it had been before... they where marked for the rest of their lifes. Now that, is really sad! Frodo became very sad, but he accepted it, you know... he did not become "desperate". It did not bother him at all, he did not feel sorry for himself. He had no griefs, only sadness.

I think that this is very important to our question. Tolkien made a big point out of how romantic and "great" it was to be sad, and accept it. I think he loved sad and proud people. I know I should have read a biography on Tolkien, however, but... I have not. Personally i think he did not really like sad people who became desperate, non-resting, self-pitying... who does, really, save parhaps those who realises that they are just the same themself?

Sad persons can have just as much "joy" in life as cherry persons, some says. They think that this sadness is a greater, more-whordy state-of-mind. Its like; they bless the sadness. In Tolkien, the Elves were sad, and they were also a bit "higher" than the other... This makes it very clear to me. Tolkien admired sadness, but really did not like depressed, griefing persons. Hence; he was a sad person himself, and not depressed... at least he wanted to be sad.

[NazgulNumberTen]

i don't think tolkien was depressed, just realistic. in his works, he showed the full spectre of mankind, our attributes were reflected in every character, from the valar to the ents. death is a part of life, and an important one at that. it adds to the depth and tone of the story. tolkien had seen much death in his life, and it deeply afected him. there is optimisim in lotr however. out of each death life begins anew, and dispite every setback and mornfull moment good things emerge.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

No one gets out of this life alive.

That may sound pessimistic, but it isn't. Everyone dies. Sooner or later we all breathe our last, but death doesn't have to be a bad thing. Tolkien, as a Christian, believed that death was conquered, and can hold claim to nothing more than the body. Aragorn knew this, and he also knew that his spirit would go on: "we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory". That sounds hopeful to me, and even joyous! The passing of death is a victory for Aragorn, as it was for many of Tolkien's character's. Denethor's corruption caused his passage from life to be gruesome and twisted, but it didn't have to be.

[Sarin Elfarmour]

Every one gets depressed at some time. depressed or not Tolkein had ALOT of time on his hands

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Thatmakes sense, because, forgive me if this is not what you meant, when you have a lot of time on your hands, you think. When you think a lot, you figure some things out.

[Guinevere]

I don`t think ALL of Tolkiens writings are sad. My over all impression of LotR is a balance between melancholy and hope.
I agree with most of what Greywind wrote! Moreover, in LotR I get the comforting feeling that however terrible the adventures are, there is a meaning behind it all, that a merciful providence is guiding everything to the best. The sacrifices that are made are not in vain.

BUT, when I read the Silmarillion (Which I just finished) I get quite a different impression. It is so terribly sombre and pessimistic - everything seems doomed from the beginning. EG: the story of Turin Turambar which ends in complete despair. When I read that one I also started to ask myself if Tolkien was depressed!!

However, the contribution of Child of the 7th age in this thread explained a lot to me!

I am really learning more and more about Tolkien and his works on this forum. Thank you everybody !

[Evisse the Blue]

It's interesting you should say this, because one critic actually labeled Tolkien as telling you 'exactly what you want to hear' - which I guess is another way of saying "unrealistical(ly optimistic)". I do not agree with this, but, still I believe Tolkien created a world so different from our own, and to venture a little further, a much better one. As Tolkien himself said, if TLR was to take place in reality, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed but used against Sauron and Barad-Dur captured. That would be depressing ANd realistic.

[Lush]

Most great works of literature don't exactly read like "Leave it to Beaver" scripts. Great writers reflect the world. And the world isn't exactly a glossy shampoo commercial, if you know what I mean.

[Mister Underhill]

Lush, you clearly missed the dark and cynical subtext of "Beaver", especially in the later seasons after the Beav turned awkward.

I've always thought Tolkien came off as manic-depressive in his Letters, as Cot7A hinted above -- although I hasten to add that we'd probably all come off in a similar light when judged by a lifetime's worth of notes and correspondence. I shudder to think of the diagnoses that could be made of me on the basis of just under two years' worth of posts on this board.

I've also always thought that the prof would likely have been diagnosed as some kind of obsessive-compulsive in today's world based on the volume of information he generated regarding an imaginary world and his penchant for endless rewriting, but then I'm of the opinion that every great artist is at least a little bit crazy.

[NazgulNumberTen]

i think depression can be linked to intellegence. being smart could lead to realizations that aren't always good to hear. sometimes i wish i was a blissful idoit rather than myself. it can lead to isolation and questioning of society and life itself.
but thats just my 2 cents.

[Elendur]

an imaginary world

BLASPHEMY!

Btw, I think everyone is depressed.

[Lush]

Lush, you clearly missed the dark and cynical subtext of "Beaver", especially in the later seasons after the Beav turned awkward.

Well, mine was a poor example, with a stereotypical take of the show. All I remember is the woman doing her vacuuming in her pearls. My point is (please bear with my bad metaphors), a great book is a lollipop with many coatings, some sugary, some sour. Ah, you can tell I've had too much to drink... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Be back later, in case I need to clarify myself more.

[NazgulNumberTen]

so much of the world now is stereotyped. being an idiviual and not fitting the cookie cutter molds of society can be depressing too. it's hard being alone in this cruel world. and those stereotyped people look down on the ones who don't fit the mold as "stupid" or "gay", but i ask of them- can they even comprehend actual though? or are thier minds limited to fasion and popularity. there is so much more to those others than what meets the eye, but it is what meets the eye that is how you are evaulated in society. there is a buetiful poem by joseph merric the elaphaunt man that describes this perfectally. i will have to try to find it however, so i'm sorry i cant post it just yet.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I agree with those of you who think that Tolkien's works do not show depression - pessimism, yes, even fatalism sometimes, but a realistic view of life and death throughout. We in today's society are the unrealistic ones in trying to deny or at least ignore the inevitability of death.

However, I also agree with Mister Underhill's idea that Tolkien himself was a manic-depressive personality. Those very words occurred to me upon reading the following in Carpenter's biography:

...capable of violent shifts of emotion... His natural optimism was balanced by deep uncertainty. Perhaps as a result, he was never moderate: love, intellectual enthusiasm, distaste, anger, self-doubt, guilt, laughter, each was in his mind exclusively and in full force when he experienced it; and at that moment no other emotion was permitted to modify it. He was thus a man of extreme contrasts. When in a black mood he would feel that there was no hope, either for himself or the world... But five minutes later in the company of a friend he would forget this black gloom and be in the best of humour.

He took an almost tragic view of himself as a weak man - which was another cause of his deep troughs of pessimism.

These quotes support what Child ot7A already said about Tolkien.

I can't help but wonder - is depression, whether weaker or stronger, an inevitable companion of intellect? Does genius preclude a well-balanced, tranquil and contented personality? Or are those extreme depths perhaps even necessary for genius to develop or express itself?

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I agree with much of what Lush and the Nazgul said...don't fret, I'll try not to repeat too much of it
Many have asked whether it's possible to be an intellectual and yet escape depression, as intellect reveals to a great extent the pain and suffering of this world; the apparent futility of life and love.
Perhaps the greatest test of "intellect" is whether one is able to pick the rays of light among the clowds?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

About depression and intelligence, in the Biblical book of Ecclesiastes, King Solomon starts off by saying how studying can lead to sorrow. At least I think it's connected.

[Lush]

Now that I'm sober, I am inclined to believe that most creative minds cannot escape their regular dose of sorrow. I like to think of it as a bargain with God, because in my philosophy, everything that's given to us has its price.
And just imagine, would Tolkien had been able to write the way he did if he was not such a complex man?

[NazgulNumberTen]

most artistic people are etheir complex or crazy. i'm tring to figure out which i am...