The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-23-2002, 06:08 PM   #1
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Ring Naming the Nazgul

Decipher and Mithril have named the nazgul.
Decipher goes by their titles and rank for Sauron, whilst Mithril created a background so here, for as close as I can tell, is the matchups in rank for Mithril
The Witch King, Black Numenorean
Ulaire Attea=Khamul the Shadow, keeper of Dol Goldur.
Ulaire Cantea=Adunaphel, Rhovannion?
Ulaire Enquea=Akhorahil, Black Numenorean
Ulaire Lemenya=Hoarmurath, Black Numenorean
Ulaire Nelya=Ren the Unclean, Rhunlander?
Ulaire Nertea=Uvatha the Horseman, Variag
Ulaire Ostea=Dwar of ???, Easterling
Ulaire Toldea=Indur Dawndeath, Haradrim
The only problem is the actual Mithril names, it really takes away the sense of shady origins and mystery from them. Oh well, if you have any questions, comments, feel free to ask.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2002, 07:45 PM   #2
Eldar14
Wight
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the Cottage of Lost Play
Posts: 182
Eldar14 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Eldar14
Sting

Hmph! I don't think Decipher has the right ot name the Nazgul. Tolkien intended for the Nazgul to remain unnamed yet some company did it so they could make more money. Humph!

Tee-Hee! I like being grumpy. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
__________________
"Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!"

-- Fanor to the Noldor
Eldar14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2002, 08:24 PM   #3
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 928
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Decipher's Nazgul remain unnamed. They are merely given titles to distinguish one from the other for game mechanics purposes. Their "names" are simply Quenya translations of "2nd Ringwraith", "3rd Ringwraith", etc. In case you're curious, Decipher's Nazgul are numbered as follows: Ulaire Attea (Atta = 2); Ulaire Nelya (Nelde = 3); Ulaire Cantea (Canta = 4); Ulaire Lemenya (Lempe = 5); Ulaire Enquea (Enque = 6); Ulaire Ostea (sic. Probably a mistake on Decipher's part) (Otso = 7); Ulaire Toldea (Tolto = 8); Ulaire Nertea (Nerte = 9).

They did give each Nazgul an additional title, such as "Lieutenant of Morgul" or "Messenger of Dol Guldur", but they all conincide with Tolkien's writings.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2002, 02:52 PM   #4
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Exactly, and Khamul is Ulaire Attea, Keeper of Dol Goldur, but I think since both Mithril and the Middle Earth trading card game call them by names, they needed to be matched up. I still think the names are a mistake though, and that Decipher did right by naming and ranking them with number 1, etc...
I can just see Sauron now
"Shall I fortify Dol Goldur, master?" Khamul.

"Make it so number one," Sauron.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2002, 02:53 PM   #5
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Exactly, and Khamul is Ulaire Attea, Keeper of Dol Goldur, but I think since both Mithril and the Middle Earth trading card game call them by names, they needed to be matched up. I still think the names are a mistake though, and that Decipher did right by naming and ranking them with number 1, etc...
I can just see Sauron now
"Shall I fortify Dol Goldur, master?" Khamul.

"Make it so number one," Sauron.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2002, 01:12 AM   #6
Bruce MacCulloch
Dead Man of Dunharrow
 
Bruce MacCulloch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 652
Bruce MacCulloch has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Bruce MacCulloch
Ring

Quote:
Ulaire Ostea=Dwar of ???, Easterling
I was just looking at Mithril Miniature's web site, he's listed as Dwaw of Waw. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
`A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'
Bruce MacCulloch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2002, 04:42 AM   #7
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,075
The Squatter of Amon Rdh has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Quote:
I was just looking at Mithril Miniature's web site, he's listed as Dwaw of Waw.
What a dreadful name. It sounds as though he was named by an old Etonian with a speech impediment. Plus it rhymes with 'Lord Haw-Haw'*


*British nickname for William Joyce, expatriate Briton and Nazi radio propagandist later captured and hanged for treason.
__________________
"For Mythology is the handmaid of literature; and literature is one of the best allies of virtue and promoters of happiness." ~ Thomas Bulfinch
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 03:58 PM   #8
Arwen Imladris
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Arwen Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
Arwen Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
One of them, the second in rank after the Lord of the Nazgl himself, was named Khaml, and also known as the Black Easterling. This is the only one of the nine Nazgl explicitly named by Tolkien.

This may come as a surprise if you've come across one of the many sources that list a set of names of the other eight: Murazor (the Witch-king himself), Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, Ren and Uvatha. These names are common across the Web, and often have detailed biographies to go with them. They're also consistent with what Tolkien had to say about the origins of the Nazgl: in the Akallabth it is stated '...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Nmenrean race', and indeed three of these names are Nmenrean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

None of these eight names, though, have their origins in Tolkien's own work. Instead, they come from a series of role-playing and trading card games produced by Iron Crown Enterprises. The names of Murazor, Dwar and the rest emerged from the unavoidable need for these games to develop and expand Tolkien's universe to meet the needs of the gaming fraternity. The games' popularity accounts for the regular appearance of the names, to the extent that they're now frequently presented as the 'true' names of the remaining eight Nazgl.

Some readers have even suggested that these names are so widely accepted that they should be considered the de facto names for the eight otherwise unnamed Ringwraiths. On a personal level, or in the context of the games that spawned the names, this isn't an unreasonable approach: if Tolkien never told us the name of, say, the Witch-king, there seems little obvious harm in imagining that his name was originally Murazor (or anything else, for that matter). Things become a little more problematic where the names are published without explanation: we receive plenty of e-mail from puzzled readers trying to work out which of Tolkien's books the names come from.
From The Encyclopedia of Arda
__________________
"Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."
Arwen Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 04:27 PM   #9
Aragost
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Arthedain
Posts: 137
Aragost has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Aragost
Sting

Everybody seems to be confused a little by the Ulaire Ostea. On the original card made by Decipher it spelled Ostea. They realized they made a mistake and corrected it in the Realms of the Elf Lord expansion. The typo that is on the card from the Fellowship is Ulaire Ostea. The correction was Ulaire Otsea.

I hope this may have cleared things up a bit.
__________________
Where there's a whip there's a will
Aragost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 09:40 PM   #10
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

I prefer not to consider those names as the accurate names of the Nazgul. Tolkien didn't intend them to be named, because, as the ancient Egyptians and the Dwarves believed, there is a lot of power in a name. We also fear what we don't know. If we don't know someone's name, and therefore cannot pinpoint their identity, we fear them all the more. Tolkien wanted the Nazgul to be creatures of pure fear, and not giving them names accomplished just that.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 10:19 PM   #11
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,836
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The card company (and people who realize what the names mean) don't even intend them as names. They're just titles so that the Nazgul cards can be separately referred to by players as Nazgul 1, Nazgul 2, etc.

[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 10:32 AM   #12
Westerly Wizard
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 72
Westerly Wizard has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think the Encyclopedia of Arda is quite wrong when they say that, for instance, there is little harm in thinking that the name Murezor was the Witch-king's name. Maybe if Tolkien simply forgot to mention his real name, but all signs indicate that it is with intention that Tolkien never tells us his, or the other Nazgul (minus Khamul, and even that is outside the primary canon). It would be similar to trying to create an original name for the Mouth of Sauron, whose name is explicitly forgotten for the reason that he had no longer any individual identity in his service to Sauron.
__________________
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."
Westerly Wizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 11:24 AM   #13
Afrodal Fenyar
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 94
Afrodal Fenyar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

So, they should be considered facts? I don't think so - they aren't made by Tolkien, therefore they can't be facts. Fanfics aren't usually(=never) considered true(well, with the exception of the Fall of Gondolin :P), and these names are just fan fiction.
__________________
"Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"

~Eomer
Afrodal Fenyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 02:34 PM   #14
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,836
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
So, they should be considered facts?
No. They aren't considered facts or names...just titles convenient during gameplay: Ninth Nazgul, Eighth Nazgul, so on... It's just Elvish instead of English.

[ June 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 03:42 PM   #15
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 928
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

The Fall of Gondolin is fanfic?
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 06:04 PM   #16
Shark
Hungry Ghoul
 
Shark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,721
Shark has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Wasn't it the Fall of Doriath which, in the 77 Silmarillion, was largely written on the spot by CJRT and his co-author and might thus be considered merely good fanfic?
Shark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 08:27 PM   #17
Westerly Wizard
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 72
Westerly Wizard has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

neither the "Fall of Gondolin" nor the "Fall of Doriath" are really fanfics, though they are also not JRR's work really at all. They are more like narratives written by Christopher based entirely off of what JRR had written, but having to be an entirely new text because what Christopher had to work with was either Old (BoLT "Fall of Gondolin) half-done, or fragmented and non-narrative. In these cases, the background texts could not by themselves be considered authoritative like the texts used to make some of the earlier Silmarillion chapter, and the only way to make a chapter with their stories was essentially for Christopher to do what he did.
__________________
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."
Westerly Wizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2003, 05:20 AM   #18
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 935
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Posted by Wersterly Wizard:
Quote:
They are more like narratives written by Christopher based entirely off of what JRR had written, but having to be an entirely new text because what Christopher had to work with was either Old (BoLT "Fall of Gondolin) half-done, or fragmented and non-narrative.
That is only true for The Fall of Gondolin. In The Fall of Doriath CJRT added a good deal of his owne or Mr. Kay's ideas that had no basis in JRRT writtings at all. And he commented later on this that he whiched he hadn't steped so far ofer boundary of pure editing.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Since it created some confusion: All that I wrote in this post is meant for the chapters of "The Silmarillion" as published by Christopher Tolkien (the '77 and 2000 editions are the same in these points).

[ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ]
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2003, 01:17 PM   #19
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 928
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

So you mean the chapter within the '77. You ought to make that distinction next time.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:20 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.