"Bad Guy" Trivia

[NightKnight]

Gothmog.

[Lindolirian]

Of course. :)

[NightKnight]

Three bad guys are known to have killed two dwarves each from the family tree in Appendix A. Who were they?

[Arvedui III]

Herm...I don't have a book on hand, but could they be the Balrog of Moria, Azog the goblin and Smaug?

[NightKnight]

Two right, one wrong.

[Sirithheruwen]

Well, Azog (I'm pretty sure) is correct...Thror and Nain.
The Bolrog, I think, is correct too...Durin and Nain I.
I also found this in Appendix A:
At last Dain I, together with Fror, his second son, was slain at the doors of his hall by a great cold-drake.
I have no clue if that is what you were looking for though.

[NightKnight]

Perfect. :)

[Sirithheruwen]

Yay! :D
Ok, an easy one:
What injuries did Shagrat sustain during the fight in the Tower of Cirith Ungol?
Good luck, and don't solve it too fast! ;)

[NightKnight]

He was stabbed in the arm.

[Sirithheruwen]

Too fast!
Yes. It was also "scored as if by rending claws," but since I didn't specify two, you're good to go! :)

[Lindolirian]

Cough... ahem. :p :D

[NightKnight]

Oops, sorry. I tend to forget about threads if I don't have the time to ask a new question immediately.

How many times did Gandalf encounter wolves, as far as we know?

[Lindolirian]

Yeah I forget about threads a lot too, I just happened to be in the second QuizRoom page cause I just got back from not being here a while and saw this one...
Gandalf encountered wolves at:

Glade where he burned them with pinecones
Battle of the Five Armies
Foothills of Caradhras
During the Battle of Helm's Deep when he gathered Erkenbrand and his men

Possibly I could add in when he escaped from the Orthanc, but he was many leagues away when they issued to pursue him, so it doesn't really count. I'd say four.

[NightKnight]

I hadn't thought about the Helm's Deep one, so you get a cookie for that one. Please continue. :)

[Lindolirian]

Ooo! A cookie! Yummm
What bad guy lived near Methon Amon?

[NightKnight]

After searching for it, the only site I found was in Italian. :p Anyway, I think it's Saruman, since Methon Amon is Methedras.

[Lindolirian]

Hahaha!! Italian??? Thats funny, do you know Italian?
Oh yeah, its right... :rolleyes:

[NightKnight]

No, I don't, but it said Methedras in the same sentance, so I took a guess. ;) Where do you get all those strange names from anyway? :confused:

How many orcs attacked Isildur on the Gladden Fields?

[Lindolirian]

Isildur went with his three sons and a guard of two hundred men. The attacking Orcs were said to have out numbered them many times even up to ten times. So I'd go with around two thousand Orcs.

[NightKnight]

Something like that, yes. :)

[Lindolirian]

Thank you. Who was known as the Constrainer?

[Morsul the Dark]

the cconstraner? sounds like a wrestler

haha grima wormtounge?

[Lindolirian]

Nope!

[Fingolfin II]

Morgoth Bauglir?

[Lindolirian]

Aye, that was him.

[Fingolfin II]

Which 'bad guy' frightened a certain treacherous councillor so badly that he betrayed his real master?

[Lindolirian]

I take it you mean it was the treacherous counsellor who betrayed his real master, not the bad guy in question? If so, it was the Lord of the Nazgul spooking Grima Wormtongue.

[Fingolfin II]

Exactly right.

[Lindolirian]

Who enslaved a person who's famous weapon was preserved in Numenor?

[Tulkas the Mighty]

Ar-Pharazon?

[NightKnight]

Morgoth?

[Lindolirian]

Nope. Neither of these people went to Numenor, but the slave's weapon was preserved in honor there. Who was his master?

[NightKnight]

Could it be Lorgan?

[Lindolirian]

That's the fella!

[NightKnight]

Did Tuor have a weapon on Numenor? Hmm....

Who killed Azaghal?

[Fingolfin II]

Glaurung?

[NightKnight]

Yes.

[Lindolirian]

Did Tuor have a weapon on Numenor?Yes, it was his axe.

[Gil-Galad]

bump

[Fingolfin II]

Ok, easy one- what was the name of the Orc King killed by Bullroarer Took?

[NightKnight]

Golfimbul.

[Fingolfin II]

Yes. :)

[NightKnight]

Who betrayed Turin and his band?

[Gil-Galad]

Mim the Petty Dwarf

[Gil-Galad]

*bump?*

[NightKnight]

Yes.

[Gil-Galad]

heh nice...


"strang creatures of the north, they inhabit the bodies of the gifted, they remind me of the aztec's though..."

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

So I'll try a crazy guess.

Werewolves?

[Gil-Galad]

nope...


(i could give a crazy clue...
www.riseofnations.com
look at the nations, its in the Aztec description
<power of...>

[NightKnight]

Tevildo and his cats?

[Gil-Galad]

Later then that

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Queen Beruthiel and her cats?

[Gil-Galad]

Its nothing with cats... think (big hint) torment

[NightKnight]

Balrogs then?

[Gil-Galad]

i see your not using my clue...


http://www.microsoft.com/games/riseofnations/nations.asp


that should help hopefully...

[NightKnight]

I read it, but I still don't get it.

[Gil-Galad]

"Aztecs have the power of ________, what other middle earth race uses __________"

[Urwen]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I finally got it.


Barrow-Wights

[Huinesoron]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I finally got it.

Barrow-Wights

The Aztecs in Rise of Nations have the Power of Sacrifice, which fits very well with the only Barrow-Wight we met in the books. So I think this is probably right!

(I like to assume you've been puzzling over this non-stop for 15 years straight. ;))

hS

[Urwen]

Nope, only since I saw it, which was 6 years ago.

[Urwen]

Well, since I am 90% sure I got this one right, I might as well continued. This one relies on the connection I couldn't help but noticed



We are guilty of the same deed
You, the first perpetrator
While I am the second
Yet, I achieved what I wanted
Although it came at a price
You paid one too
And you paid it thrice


(Oh, and it's NOT Maeglin and Gollum. Nor is it Maeglin and Grima. Use this information how you will. :cool:)

[Urwen]

I bump this in the name of Lomion.

[Huinesoron]

"You paid it thrice" makes me think of the Silmarils, but I'm not sure who that would make the speaker. Sauron to Morgoth doesn't work, unless the 'price' was losing the Ring/the Silmarils after achieving dominion.

Then there's Maeglin's striking the walls three times, which would make him 'the first' - but then what is the deed? Only the speaker is asserted to have achieved what they wanted, implying Maeglin might not have.

It can't be one of the Sons of Feanor talking about infanticide, because the sons of Dior were killed before Gondolin fell. It can't be anyone talking about betraying a hidden city, because the only other person who did that was Turin, and that already happened by the time Maeglin was captured.

Oh! Is it Ar-Pharazon talking to Maeglin, referencing (attempted) cousin-marriage?

hS

[Urwen]

Yes.

[Huinesoron]

Awesome. :) What're the rules for this thread - just 'post trivia about a bad guy'? I can do that:

Who was the leader of a thousand mortal Men?

hS

[Urwen]

King of the Dead?

[Huinesoron]

King of the Dead?

Nope.

I'm not sure how this thread's meant to work if there's an incorrect guess, so how about a second hint:

This person's friend was wiser than he.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, the only two friends I know well where one is wiser than the other were Beleg and Turin, but Turin didn't lead a thousand men, nor was he a bad guy.

[Huinesoron]

I'm pretty sure this character isn't well-known by anyone, but he's not some obscure HoME person or anything; he's right there in one of the main books (by which I mean Hobbit, LotR, Silm, UT, and the three Great Tales).

(I am so so pleased that the three Great Tales finally have their own books. Eee!)

(That's not relevant, sorry.)

hS

[Urwen]

I'm pretty sure this character isn't well-known by anyone, but he's not some obscure HoME person or anything; he's right there in one of the main books (by which I mean Hobbit, LotR, Silm, UT, and the three Great Tales).

(I am so so pleased that the three Great Tales finally have their own books. Eee!)

(That's not relevant, sorry.)

hS


Speaking of irrelevant things, I've added another post to FoG discussion.

[Urwen]

And I am still not sure who.


Ar-Pharazon?

[Urwen]

Or maybe Ulfang or one of his sons.

[Huinesoron]

I'm pretty sure both of them led more than a thousand mortals; the number is straight from the text.

A third trivium... he went back.

hS

[Urwen]

From where in the text, exactly? ;)


Also, could you at least give me a response about my latest post in the FoG thread, please? I am a bit bored and would like to continue it.

[Huinesoron]

Right before his pal goes to hang out with a fellow with one hand. :)

hS

[Urwen]

The only ones who are confirmed to have been one-handed are Maedhros and Beren, but neither Finrod nor Fingon were associated with any 'bad guy', except maybe Ulfang and his brood.

[Urwen]

And the only one I know of who was pals with an actual 'bad guy' was Turin, via his friendship towards Mim.

[Urwen]

Wait, if by 'his pal' you mean what I think you mean, then I might just know the answer.


Is this in anyway related to someone who could only speak three times before dying? ;)

[Huinesoron]

Yes, the one-handed person is one of those two. You might want to move away from popular characters for a bit, because his friend is even less well-known than him (though I believe he has more actual lines).

hS

[Urwen]

There we go, but I have just one question:



Is this in anyway related to someone who could only speak three times before dying? ;)

[Huinesoron]

There we go, but I have just one question:

I'm afraid not. :(

hS

[Urwen]

I'm afraid not. :(

hS


Damn, there goes my grand idea.....

[Urwen]

And now I am drawing a blank again. Too bad.



P.S: Huan is cute.

[Urwen]

Whether you are using 'hung out' figuratively or literally, there were no minor characters who hung out with Beren or Maedhros mentioned anywhere

[Huinesoron]

Whether you are using 'hung out' figuratively or literally, there were no minor characters who hung out with Beren or Maedhros mentioned anywhere

I'm using it figuratively, and, uh... you're wrong. ;)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, there was Huan, but you said no to that line of thinking.

[Urwen]

I'm gonna fetch Silm.

[Urwen]

.....This is based on Beren and Luthien (ie. the separate book), isn't it?


Considering that's the only Great Tale in a separate book that I don't have with me, it's going to be hard to figure out.

[Huinesoron]

.....This is based on Beren and Luthien (ie. the separate book), isn't it?

Considering that's the only Great Tale in a separate book that I don't have with me, it's going to be hard to figure out.

No, it isn't. :) It's actually in the Silmarillion.

"Hang out" may be a bit more casual than their actual relationship.

hS

[Urwen]

Gorlim, Ragnor, Radhruin, Dagnir, Dairuin, Gildor, Urthel, Arthad, Hathaldir......

[Huinesoron]

Gorlim, Ragnor, Radhruin, Dagnir, Dairuin, Gildor, Urthel, Arthad, Hathaldir......

I think Gorlim is the only possible bad guy in that list, and it's not him. Look a bit earlier.

hS

[Urwen]

How much earlier?

[Urwen]

If it weren't for the fact that Beren wasn't even born at a time, I'd say Bereg.


Oh, it IS Bereg, isn't it? The one-handed isn't Beren, but Maedhros, and the friend is Amlach.

[Huinesoron]

Dingdingding! And there he is: Bereg the traitor of House Beor.

Who was the leader of a thousand mortal Men?

He went back.

and Bereg led a thousand of the people of Bëor away southwards, and they passed out of the songs of those days.

This person's friend was wiser than he.

His pal goes to hang out with a fellow with one hand.

But Amlach repented, saying: 'I have now a quarrel of my own with this Master of Lies, which will last to my life's end'; and he went away north and entered the service of Maedhros.

Over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

I didn't think of Bereg as the 'bad guy' per se. At least no more than him.


Normally I would ask a question about him, but I'll take a break from this, for now.

[Urwen]

Now, Eol did cast a curse upon Maeglin "Here you may yet die the same death as I".


But there was another character who cast the curse that had pretty much same wording as Eol's (and which was eventually fulfilled) upon another.

Who was this character?

(Hint: Read Eol's curse again, and replace 'I' with 'my offspring')

[Galadriel55]

Mim, to Androg?

[Urwen]

Mim, to Androg?


That is correct.

[Galadriel55]

Not up to digging through the texts, so:


The first of two runaway assistants.

[Huinesoron]

Sauron, Aule's former 'assistant', who was eventually followed in his defection by Saruman?

hS

[Galadriel55]

No, but good thought. Think later and smaller.

[Urwen]

Grima?

[Galadriel55]

Grima?

Yes indeed!

[Urwen]

I too am feeling lazy right now, so.....

He brought doom upon five.

[Huinesoron]

Yes indeed!

Well done, Urwen! But, um... how Grima? Not getting it.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Well done, Urwen! But, um... how Grima? Not getting it.

hS

Theoden was complaining about the first councilor running off (Grima), the second one running off (Gandalf).

[Urwen]

My puzzle:
I too am feeling lazy right now, so.....

He brought doom upon five.

[Urwen]

No takers?

Well, let me amend it slightly

He brought doom upon a family of five.

(*surreptitiously points to self*)

[Galadriel55]

There are a couple options (such as Morgoth who doomed Hurin and the other 4 family members), but then they also brought doom on many others as well.

[Urwen]

There are a couple options (such as Morgoth who doomed Hurin and the other 4 family members), but then they also brought doom on many others as well.

You callin' us bad guys? Not cool, G55, not cool at all.

Anyway, Morgoth was the one I had in mind, so over to you.

[Galadriel55]

You callin' us bad guys? Not cool, G55, not cool at all.

I was calling Morgoth the bad guy who brought doom on all of Beleriand, but whatever.


This one is a little creative:

A giant out of the tales, to delight the teller.

[Urwen]

Fastitocalon?

[Galadriel55]

Fastitocalon?

No but you're on the right track.

[Urwen]

Oliphaunt?

[Galadriel55]

Oliphaunt?

Indeed so!

[Urwen]

I can't help but make this next one.

Which bad guy is rumored to be half-Orc?

[Huinesoron]

Oh, I know this one!

It's Bill Ferny's Southerner friend from Bree, right?

:D

hS

[Urwen]

Well, you're *technically* correct, so I'll give it to you with interest. :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

:D

Okay, so: many of Tolkien's villains brought about their own defeat by their own actions, but to the best of my memory, there is only one who directly defeated themselves, finally and utterly. Who?

hS

[Urwen]

Gollum comes to mind first. If not him, then Ungoliant, who eventually devoured herself.

[Huinesoron]

Ungoliant is who I was thinking of, right enough. Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Here is an easy one:

Name all of the known traitors in Tolkien-verse. :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

Here is an easy one:

Name all of the known traitors in Tolkien-verse. :smokin:

By which definition? If we take the colloquial 'betrayal of trust', then Celegorm and Curufin were traitors in Nargothrond; if we require the stricter 'betrayal of your country', they weren't, because they were there as refugees. If we walk it back to 'betrayal of your ruler', then... well, who knows?

If we're only after legally convicted traitors, then we'd have to look into the few legal cases that took place and see if we can divine what they were actually accused of. Feanor and Beregond both broke oaths, but I'm not sure either of them committed treason.

And what of Ulfang and his sons? Were they traitors, or faithful undercover agents of Morgoth? Can they be both?

"Do not go to the Elves for counsel..."

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I kinda asked this question in 'honor' of Bereg and the guy in my avatar. ;)

So with that in mind, go with whatever definition you think is appropriate. :smokin:

Or, if you think it too broad still, I can narrow it down more/change the question.

[Huinesoron]

So with that in mind, go with whatever definition you think is appropriate.

I will take as my definition 'turned from a true or divinely-appointed loyalty to actively and intentionally work against it while not under direct coercion'. So confessing something under torture, or working as a slave, are not treason; but escaping from those conditions and continuing to serve your enemy would be.

Breaking the laws of your nation is not treason, unless by doing so you intentionally work against said kingdom.

(Despite a certain desire to the contrary, I will also limit myself to characters from the generally-accepted canonical version of Middle-earth. It would be fun to delve into the Lost Tales and Story of Kullervo, but I don't really have the time.)

Or, if you think it too broad still, I can narrow it down more/change the question.

No, no, we can do this. From the top, then.

The Traitors of Tolkien

Part 1 - The Powers

Melkor - betrayed the Elder King and waged war against the Valar.
Osse - turned against the Valar for a time.
Sauron - betrayed his master Aule.
Gothmog & the other Balrogs - Maiar who turned to Melkor.
Saruman - joined Sauron.


Excluded:

Ungoliant - no indication she ever served the Valar.
Glaurung, Carcharoth, etc - not confirmed Powers; may have been bred to evil.
Radagast & the Blue Wizards - failed in their tasks, but not said to have actively betrayed the Powers.


Part 2 - The Quendi
2a - The Vanyar
None

2b - The Noldor

Feanor - While serving as High King of the Noldor, rebelled against his overlord Manwe.
Fingolfin - During the captivity of Maedhros, staged an effective coup against the rights of said captive High King.
Celegorm & Curufin - While refugees in Nargothrond, orchestrated an effective coup against the king.


Excluded:

Aredhel - broke the laws of Gondolin, but did not betray it.
Maedhros & Maglor - While many times kinslayers, were never of the kingdom they attacked; nor did they surrender to Eonwe.


2c - The Teleri, Sindar, and other Third Host

Maeglin - After his return to Gondolin, worked to weaken the city for Morgoth.


Excluded:

Eol - Murderer and kidnapper, but not traitor.


Part 3 - The Big Folk
3a - The First Age

Gorlim - Refused to give up information under torture, but did so when bribed.
Turin - Mostly just hapless, but murdered the lord of Brethil, his adopted land.


Excluded:

Bereg - Rebelled against the clan leadership, but only to depart.
Ulfang & sons - Undercover agents for Morgoth.


3b - The Second Age

The Lord of the Nazgul & two compatriots - Lords (or Ladies???) of Numenor who took service with Sauron.
Herucalmo ("Tar-Anducal") - Usurped the sceptre.
Pharazon - Usurped the sceptre.
Amandil - Broke the law of Numenor and of the Valar in sailing west to act as informant against his homeland.


Excluded:

Elendil & sons - Acted to preserve their culture, not to damage Numenor.


3c - The Third Age

Beruthiel - presumptively a traitor, but could potentially just have been nosy.
The sons of Earendur - waged war on High King Amlaith of Arnor and split the kingdom.
Castamir - usurped the throne of Gondor.
Mardil "Voronwe" - effectively usurped the Throne of Gondor.
Grima - betrayed Rohan.
Eomer - broke the law of Rohan by allowing strangers to roam freely.
Eowyn - defied the king and left Rohan without a leader of the Royal House.
Beregond - abandoned his post and committed murder on the Silent Street.
Bill Ferny & others of Bree - opened the gates of Bree to invasion.


Part 4 - The Little Folk

Bilbo Baggins - stole the Arkenstone and gave it to Thorin's enemies to weaken him.
Lotho Sackville-Baggins - usurped the powers of the Mayor and Thain of the Shire.


Excluded:

Smeagol - Murderer and oathbreaker, but said oath was taken under duress and not particularly intended.
Merry - Disobeyed the word of the King of Rohan, but not to endanger the nation.
Pippin - Was relieved of his duty prior to acting against Denethor.


Part 5 - Other Races
None.

How am I doing so far? :D

hS

[Urwen]

Over to you.

[Huinesoron]

Um. Okay, let's see.

What do Feanor and Tar-Ciryatan have in common, that could lead to both of them being called 'bad guys'?

hS

[Urwen]

Speaking against the Valar?

[Huinesoron]

Speaking against the Valar?

You're on the right track... I'm looking for something that's specifically those two, and not (for example) Ar-Pharazon.

hS

[Urwen]

Stealing ships?

[Huinesoron]

And now you're off the right track. :)

I wanted to use Tar-Telperien instead, which would have meant I couldn't have used Tar-Ciryatan; but I decided the case was stronger for Ciryatan.

hS

[Urwen]

Kinslaying? Departing for Middle Earth?

[Huinesoron]

No. I meant precisely what I said when I claimed that naming Tar-Telperien would mean I absolutely couldn't name Ciryatan too.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, apart from leaving all the responsibility for other people to handle and refusing to hand over the scepter, I don't see what Telperien did to brand her a bad guy. And neither Feanor nor Ciryatan did either of those things.

[Urwen]

Tar Telperien was reluctant to pass the leadership to her nephew.....Feanor hated his brothers and their children......

[Huinesoron]

I don't think I asked what they did; I asked what they have in common, which is, yes, related to what they did.

hS

[Urwen]

They doomed their people?

[Huinesoron]

That's... sort of the right answer, actually.

Yeah, I'm going to give you that. What I was trying for was that they were the first - the first to break the peace of Aman in Feanor's case, the first to turn against the Valar in Ciryatan's. The Falls of the Noldor and Numenor sprang, in a way, from their actions.

So over to you.

hS

[Galadriel55]

That's... sort of the right answer, actually.

Yeah, I'm going to give you that. What I was trying for was that they were the first - the first to break the peace of Aman in Feanor's case, the first to turn against the Valar in Ciryatan's. The Falls of the Noldor and Numenor sprang, in a way, from their actions.

So over to you.

hS

What was your idea with Telperien?

[Huinesoron]

What was your idea with Telperien?

She was the first ruler of Numenor not to yield the sceptre prior to her death. Ultimately, the fact that Tolkien specifically notes the first Shadow falling on the island in Ciryatan's reign trumped that.

hS

[Urwen]

Who created the weapon which would eventually end the life of Morgoth?

(Hint: Said weapon is wielded by Gorthol)

[Huinesoron]

Who created the weapon which would eventually end the life of Morgoth?

(Hint: Said weapon is wielded by Gorthol)

Originally Eol, and later the smiths of Nargothrond - I don't think there are any known by name. Might have been Turin himself, though I don't know how he would have learnt the art.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Eol, and later the smiths of Nargothrond - I don't think there are any known by name. Might have been Turin himself, though I don't know how he would have learnt the art.

hS


Since this is 'bad guy trivia', Eol is the one I had in mind.

[Huinesoron]

So, my turn?

Treating the cursed sword itself as a "bad guy":

The answer I gave above is wrong. Why?

hS

[Urwen]

Now that's a difficult one. It is known that Gurthang is the sword to kill Morgoth (according to prophecy of Mandos), and it is known that Eol is the original owner, and it's known that Turin is its wielder and that he'd do the deed. Based on these facts, I see no reason why you would think the answer you gave is wrong....

[Huinesoron]

Now that's a difficult one. It is known that Gurthang is the sword to kill Morgoth, and it is known that Eol is the original owner, and it's known that Turin is its wielder and that he'd do the deed. Based on these facts, I see no reason why you would think the answer you gave is wrong....

All of those things are true - but one of them is also false. :)

hS

[Urwen]

Unless you mean that Turin won't be the one who kill Morgoth, everything I've said is true.

Maybe it has something to do with the disloyalty of sword itself?

[Huinesoron]

Unless you mean that Turin won't be the one who kill Morgoth, everything I've said is true.

No, I won't quibble that point, and I agree that everything you said is true. But one of your points is also wrong. :):)

hS

[Huinesoron]

Maybe it has something to do with the disloyalty of sword itself?

Mm... no, I don't think so (and if so, only at an extreme tangent, as in 'said disloyalty led to the circumstances that make me wrong').

hS

[Urwen]

Do you mean to say that Eol is not the original maker? :o

[Huinesoron]

Do you mean to say that Eol is not the original maker? :o

Eol is the original maker of Anglachel, certainly, which was reforged in Nargothrond into Gurthang. So in a sense, the smiths of Nargothrond are the makers of Gurthang.

But I said that in my answer. So why was I wrong?

hS

[Urwen]

I don't know. You said that each of the three main points are true, yet that the statement consisting of those three points is false. And considering you said all three points are true, your answer can't be false.

Unless there is some obscure variable I'm missing.....

[Urwen]

Wait.....since Anglachel was reforged into Gurthang, and Gurthang is the weapon that will slay Morgoth, that means that Eol didn't make the weapon which will kill Morgoth. Because since Anglachel was reforged, Anglachel and Gurthang are now different swords.

(That was a bit wordy, but you get the point...)

[Huinesoron]

I don't know. You said that each of the three main points are true, yet that the statement consisting of those three points is false. And considering you said all three points are true, your answer can't be false.

It's worse than that - while each of your three points is true, one of the three is also false. :eek:

A correct - though not full - answer to your original trivia question might help, and that answer is: No-one.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Wait.....since Anglachel was reforged into Gurthang, and Gurthang is the weapon that will slay Morgoth, that means that Eol didn't make the weapon which will kill Morgoth. Because since Anglachel was reforged, Anglachel and Gurthang are now different swords.

(That was a bit wordy, but you get the point...)

This is true! You're three-quarters of the way there - because I did give 'the smiths of Nargothrond' as an answer. So why was that still wrong...?

hS

[Urwen]

This is true! You're three-quarters of the way there - because I did give 'the smiths of Nargothrond' as an answer. So why was that still wrong...?

hS


You mean that Eol didn't make the sword at all?

This is quickly becoming a mystery festa.... :eek:

[Huinesoron]

You mean that Eol didn't make the sword at all?

This is quickly becoming a mystery festa.... :eek:

Eol made Anglachel, and Anglachel was reforged into Gurthang.

And then...?

hS

[Urwen]

From Tolkien Gateway:


Eöl was a skilled craftsman and a master sword-smith. Among his greatest works were the two swords made from the iron of a meteorite, Anglachel and Anguirel. Anglachel he gave to Thingol as a begrudged payment for dwelling in Nan Elmoth, and it would later become the sword borne by Beleg, and after him, Túrin Turambar. Eöl also devised the strong yet supple, jet-black metal known as galvorn, from which he forged the armour that he used when travelling abroad.

[Urwen]

Eol made Anglachel, and Anglachel was reforged into Gurthang.

And then...?

hS


Oh, you meant that?

Well, technically it is still true. :p

After all, if Turin could come back to finish the job, then so could Gurthang.

[Huinesoron]

Oh, you meant that?

Well, technically it is still true. :p

After all, if Turin could come back to finish the job, then so could Gurthang.

It sounds like you might have thought up the right answer; all you need to do is say it. :) Why does Gurthang need to come back?

hS

[Urwen]

Why does Gurthang need to come back?

hS

Because:

but it will be by the hand of Túrin that finally death and utter defeat will be dealt to Melkor. Túrin will run his black sword Gurthang (Iron of Death) through Melkor's dark heart, thus avenging the Children of Húrin
It's specifically noted that Turin will use Gurthang, rather than some random sword, to finish the job.

That's why.

[Huinesoron]

Because:

It's specifically noted that Turin will use Gurthang, rather than some random sword, to finish the job.

That's why.

Yes, Gurthang will be used to kill Morgoth; but why does it need to come back? Or, what does it need to come back from, that might explain why I'm still insisting my answer was wrong?

hS

[Urwen]

All right. It was broken after it took Turin's life. Is that what you were going for?

Either way, the answer remains true. Turin will slay Morgoth with Gurthang, which was made by Eol. And that is the way of it.

[Huinesoron]

All right. It was broken after it took Turin's life. Is that what you were going for?

Either way, the answer remains true. Turin will slay Morgoth with Gurthang, which was made by Eol. And that is the way of it.

Correct. Gurthang is currently in (at least) two pieces; it will need reforging before it can be used to kill anyone (barring Narsil-esque finger shenanigans). So while Anglachel was made by Eol, and reforged (for some reason - it wasn't broken!) by the Nargothrondrim - Gurthang II, the sword that will kill Morgoth, has yet to be forged from the pieces of the original.

Quibbly, I know, but I don't think it unreasonable to call Narsil and Anduril different swords, the latter being 'created' in Rivendell.

(My guess is that Aule will probably attend to the reforging of Gurthang personally; perhaps he can do something about that curse of Eol's while he's at it. Though they might always give Feanor the job...)

hS

[Urwen]

Though they might always give Feanor the job...

hS

I hope so, that way my statement that it was made by a bad guy will remain true.

[Urwen]

I think I will take a short nap before continuing this.

[Urwen]

Which two characters share a name?

[Galadriel55]

Which two characters share a name?

Gothmog? The Balrog and the Third Age battle commander?

[Urwen]

Yup.

[Galadriel55]

A name shared by two villains. To follow that up, what name is shared by two villainous objects?

[Nerwen]

Grond?

[Galadriel55]

Grond?

Le voila. Proceed.

[Nerwen]

How about- a name shared by a villainous object and a non-villainous location?

[Galadriel55]

Ok, silly answer time... SCARY! :p

[Nerwen]

Ok, silly answer time... SCARY! :p
Oh, you mean the famous Scary Bad Thing and the equally renowned Scary but Okay Place?

[Galadriel55]

Oh, you mean the famous Scary Bad Thing and the equally renowned Scary but Okay Place?

Of course! The village in the Shire that's just as renowned as that scary thing the bad guys used.


There's Orthanc-stone and Orthanc-rock, but I wouldn't call the place entirely innocent. And they are not identical anyways.

[Nerwen]

Of course! The village in the Shire that's just as renowned as that scary thing the bad guys used.
Well, perhaps not quite as renowned, but Morgulknifesville does boast one of the prettiest little picnic-grounds in the East Farthing!;)

There's Orthanc-stone and Orthanc-rock, but I wouldn't call the place entirely innocent. And they are not identical anyways.
I wouldn't call it even slightly innocent, after Saruman took up residence. So no, not those two.

[Galadriel55]

I wouldn't call it even slightly innocent, after Saruman took up residence. So no, not those two.

Well that's a shame, cause all of my ideas seem to lead back to the various names of Saruman's abode (mostly iron- and fang- related stuff). Hint please?

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. Hints... let's see...

1. [---] is the actual name of the place, but only one of many given the object.
2. Both place and object are very important to the history of Arda, but the object is much better known in the real world.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The One Ring, and the Ring of Doom in Valinor?

Edit: the former was even called the "Ring of Doom" by the minstrel at the Field of Cormallen)

[Nerwen]

Bingo!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Okay- a nonvillainous thing which was nonetheless the root of (almost) all evil

[Urwen]

Flame Imperishable? ;)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, the Root Of Absolutely Everything is a mite too general....

[Urwen]

Oath of Feanor?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oath of Feanor?

I'd say it was pretty villainous in itself. An oath of eternal hatred? Not really very kum-ba-yah, that.

[Urwen]

Silmarils?

[Urwen]

Is my answer right or not?

[Urwen]

I'd appreciate a yes/no to my guess.....

[Urwen]

Okay, guess I will never know......

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Whoa! Forgot I had left this one hanging. Sorry!

Anyway, yes, the Silmarils. If we want singular, then the one Beren recovered did more damage than the other two (fall of Doriath and two kinslayings extra)

[Urwen]

There are two characters who did evil things which ultimately led to good things. Who were they?

(Hint: They have been discussed recently, and a similar statement was made)

[Galadriel55]

There are two characters who did evil things which ultimately led to good things. Who were they?

(Hint: They have been discussed recently, and a similar statement was made)

Feanor and Turin?


Really the statement could apply to a lot of people, as it's an ongoing theme in Tolkien's work that all things will eventually lead to good. But I guess some people stand out more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

1) Gollum
2) Maedhros (the Third Kinslaying resulted in Earendil getting Elwing with the Silmaril aboard, which made his embassy possible)
3) bonus answer: Thingol, whose attempt to indirectly murder Beren resulted in a Silmaril being recovered

[Urwen]

Only Gollum, and to extent Feanor, could be seen as 'bad guys' from that bunch.

[Huinesoron]

I assume the two characters are connected, because otherwise this is really two questions. So... Eol and Maeglin? They're both unambiguously cast as villains by Tolkien, but their actions led to the Fall of Gondolin, which led to Earendil's voyage.

hS

[Urwen]

I was thinking of Gollum and Maeglin (and they are connected by the manner of their deaths), but your answer is better, so you can go.

And I request that you make an interesting question which requires some thinkin'.

[Huinesoron]

Thinkin'? Well, all right...

If prizes were being given out for killing the most (known) kings between the beginning of Arda and the end of the Third Age...

... who would take home the bronze?

And for how many kings?

Be prepared to defend your answer.

(And for bonus points: how many kings did first and second place kill each?)

hS

[Urwen]

Well, Melkor is responsible for death of three Kings (Finwe, Feanor, and Fingolfin). Four, if you count Fingon.

Then there is Sauron, who is responsible for deaths of Finrod, Pharazon, Miriel, Elendil and Gil-Galad

And finally, we have the trio of Hurin/Turin/Maeglin, who lead to deaths of Thingol, Orodreth and Turgon, respectively.

(Alternatively, there is Castamir)

(Is this satisfactory?)

[Huinesoron]

Well, Melkor is responsible for death of three Kings (Finwe, Feanor, and Fingolfin). Four, if you count Fingon.

Then there is Sauron, who is responsible for deaths of Finrod, Pharazon, Miriel, Elendil and Gil-Galad

And finally, we have the trio of Hurin/Turin/Maeglin, who lead to deaths of Thingol, Orodreth and Turgon, respectively.

(Alternatively, there is Castamir)

(Is this satisfactory?)

You've come up way short on Sauron, and I'd say pretty short on Morgoth, too - Turgon, for instance, was killed by his army, so counts exactly as much as Fingon. And there's several more by that measure...

You also haven't given an answer to the actual question: who takes third place? You've named three people whose actions led to the deaths of kings, and one who... I don't think Castamir killed a king? He killed the crown prince.

I can name at least two characters who killed two named kings.

hS

[Urwen]

Sons of Feanor, maybe? Or more specifically, Celegorm. I don't know whether he personally killed Olwe, but he definitely killed Dior.

[Urwen]

Or Gothmog, who killed Feanor and Fingon?

[Huinesoron]

Sons of Feanor, maybe? Or more specifically, Celegorm. I don't know whether he personally killed Olwe, but he definitely killed Dior.

I believe Dior killed Celegorm, actually. :) And Olwe isn't dead (he's last seen asking in vain for Osse to sink the swanships after the theft).

Or Gothmog, who killed Feanor and Fingon?

Gothmog is a definite contender. I'm inclined not to give him credit for commanding the army that killed Turgon, because, well, he was dead by then. :) But there's at least two other characters who can claim at least two kills, so you're going to need to find someone with three or more.

hS

[Urwen]

Can't think of anyone of the top of my head. Unless it isn't a person, but a concept....

[Huinesoron]

We're not going to give a bronze medal to a concept. ;)

There is a specific character who can make a firm claim to at least 5 king-killings.

For the record, my final count give Morgoth six kills (three of them by his forces at his direct command), and Sauron ten(!!!) firm kills, plus another three if we count the three Kings of Gondor killed by Easterlings/Wainriders under his presumed command. I'm not giving him credit for kills by random Haradrim, Black Numenoreans, and Orcs - only for cases where he sent an army with a reasonable expectation of killing a specific king.

I count 46 Kings who died in an untimely manner (43 if you discount Maedhros, who wasn't High King when he died). I credit my candidate with 5 kills, Gothmog with 2, and I can only find one other character who claims more than 1 kill (also achieving 2). I originally thought Glaurung qualified, but apparently Azaghal was Lord of Belegost, so he only gets Orodreth.

hS

[Galadriel55]

The Witch King has a couple names to his list. He killed Theoden, and he (or servants at his direct orders) killed Earnur. He may have killed some Arnorian kings but I can't remember any specifically.

[Huinesoron]

The Witch King has a couple names to his list. He killed Theoden, and he (or servants at his direct orders) killed Earnur. He may have killed some Arnorian kings but I can't remember any specifically.

That's who I had, sure enough. He also gets Arvedui - we're specifically told that the ice in the north was under his power. That takes him to 3, which is enough to win the bronze unless someone can pin a third death on Gothmog (or Durin's Bane, who killed Durin VI and Nain I). I'd also credit the Witch-King with Arveleg I of Arthedain, who he sent the armies of Angmar against - and probably Argeleb I as well, who was killed by Hill-Men allied with Angmar.

Over to you unless someone else can beat him.

hS

[Galadriel55]

That's who I had, sure enough. He also gets Arvedui - we're specifically told that the ice in the north was under his power. That takes him to 3, which is enough to win the bronze unless someone can pin a third death on Gothmog (or Durin's Bane, who killed Durin VI and Nain I). I'd also credit the Witch-King with Arveleg I of Arthedain, who he sent the armies of Angmar against - and probably Argeleb I as well, who was killed by Hill-Men allied with Angmar.

Over to you unless someone else can beat him.

hS

I thought Arvedui dies a "natural" death, but I honestly can't remember that much from Arnor's history, so I can't argue any of your points. But more importantly, I don't know of anyone else who can beat that.

[Huinesoron]

I thought Arvedui dies a "natural" death, but I honestly can't remember that much from Arnor's history, so I can't argue any of your points. But more importantly, I don't know of anyone else who can beat that.

He fled the Witch-King to Forochel, and when a boat came to pick him up the Snowmen said if he got in it the Witch-King would sink him.

He got in it.

It sank.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Barring any objections or counter-examples:


What evildoer was both the bidder of farewell and the greeter?

[Urwen]

Glaurung, to Turin?

[Galadriel55]

Glaurung, to Turin?


No.

[Huinesoron]

Barring any objections or counter-examples:


What evildoer was both the bidder of farewell and the greeter?

Bilbo Baggins, noted thief and traitor, who opened one book with "Good morning!" and the other with "I bid you all a very fond farewell."

:D

hS

[Galadriel55]

Bilbo Baggins, noted thief and traitor, who opened one book with "Good morning!" and the other with "I bid you all a very fond farewell."

:D

hS

Good thinking, but despite being a thief and traitor Bilbo isn't really a bad guy.



I realized the clue might be a little vague, so here's a version with an extra detail:

What evdildoer was both bidder of farewell upon departure, and greeter upon arrival?

[Huinesoron]

Good thinking, but despite being a thief and traitor Bilbo isn't really a bad guy.

I realized the clue might be a little vague, so here's a version with an extra detail:

What evdildoer was both bidder of farewell upon departure, and greeter upon arrival?

True - but you did specify 'evildoer', not 'evil-be-er'. ;)

Didn't Bill Ferny show up pretty early in the Scouring (as well as, of course, getting an apple lobbed at his head on departing Bree)?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Didn't Bill Ferny show up pretty early in the Scouring (as well as, of course, getting an apple lobbed at his head on departing Bree)?

hS

He absolutely did! Showed his face during the departure from Bree, and during the arrival to the Shire. And suffered blunt force trauma injuries both times. :D

Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Two of them are in Beleriand and Rhovanion.

Where is the third?

hS

[Urwen]

Dark fortresses?

[Urwen]

In which case, the third is in Aman

[Galadriel55]

Dark fortresses?

But then what about Mordor? It's another one - arguably coming before Dol Guldur because it's older and bigger.

[Huinesoron]

Mordor is the correct answer.

I was specifically thinking of Sauron's dark towers, with Beleriand being Tol-in-Gaurhoth; probably should have said 'West Beleriand' to keep people from thinking of Angband. :)

Back to you, G55 (and, Urwen - did you just unflinchingly cast the Halls of Mandos as a dark fortress? I kinda like that!)

hS

[Urwen]

Mordor is the correct answer.

I was specifically thinking of Sauron's dark towers, with Beleriand being Tol-in-Gaurhoth; probably should have said 'West Beleriand' to keep people from thinking of Angband. :)

Back to you, G55 (and, Urwen - did you just unflinchingly cast the Halls of Mandos as a dark fortress? I kinda like that!)

hS


I meant Utumno.

[Huinesoron]

I meant Utumno.

Ah. In that case, Utumno is (was) far to the east of Beleriand, probably somewhere in the Grey Mountains; it's not in Aman.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Ok, here goes.

These benign and mostly benevolent people were used for evil purposes by one consumed with greed and one consumed with vengeance.

[Urwen]

Thingol and Hurin, most definitely. The former was slain because of his own greed, the latter sought vengeance against those who had wronged his children.

[Galadriel55]

Thingol and Hurin, most definitely. The former was slain because of his own greed, the latter sought vengeance against those who had wronged his children.

Most definitely not! The "people" were used by the one with greed and the one with vengeance, they aren't the same people. Read carefully.

The clue had a typo, now corrected.

[Urwen]

Okay, then one must be Tar-Miriel, who was used by Pharazon so he could obtain the throne which wasn't his.

For the other, I am drawing a blank. Morgoth, who used Hurin, Maeglin and the House of Ulfang for his evil purposes comes to mind, and he did desire vengeance, but, as Huinesoron pointed out, none of them was completely benevolent.

Then there is Sauron, who more or less used Denethor and Gollum, but again, neither of them were completely benevolent.

(In fact, the only person who could reasonably be called 'pure' is Frodo, who resisted the lure of the Ring for the longest time, only to succumb at the end. But he wasn't really 'used' by anybody.)

Lotho comes to mind. We don't know much about him, except that he was used by Saruman as a puppet ruler, and then killed on his orders.

So Tar-Miriel and Lotho are my guess.

[Galadriel55]

Okay, then one must be Tar-Miriel, who was used by Pharazon so he could obtain the throne which wasn't his.

For the other, I am drawing a blank. Morgoth, who used Hurin, Maeglin and the House of Ulfang for his evil purposes comes to mind, and he did desire vengeance, but, as Huinesoron pointed out, none of them was completely benevolent.

Then there is Sauron, who more or less used Denethor and Gollum, but again, neither of them were completely benevolent.

(In fact, the only person who could reasonably be called 'pure' is Frodo, who resisted the lure of the Ring for the longest time, only to succumb at the end. But he wasn't really 'used' by anybody.)

Lotho comes to mind. We don't know much about him, except that he was used by Saruman as a puppet ruler, and then killed on his orders.

So Tar-Miriel and Lotho are my guess.

Some of your thoughts are on the right track, but none of the guesses for "people" are right.

Read the clue carefully. Some "people", collectively, were used by two separate individuals, one associated with "greed" and one associated with "vengeance". Answer with a combination that the clue is asking for.

[Urwen]

The same people or different people?

[Urwen]

Eruhini (Elves and Edain) were used by Melkor and Sauron.

[Galadriel55]

Eruhini (Elves and Edain) were used by Melkor and Sauron.

Not tye answer, but this is the right structure/format.

[Urwen]

You missed this:


The same people or different people?


Maybe the Numenoreans/Gondorians?

[Galadriel55]

You missed this:


Maybe the Numenoreans/Gondorians?

1) I did not miss it, I think you don't need the explicit answer to that question to find the solution. Consider the way the question is phrased and what I told you about the format.

2) Are Numenorians/Gondorians the people, the greedy one, or the vengeful one? What are the other two? That's not a clear or complete answer.

(But no, they are not the answer to either of the components).

[Urwen]

Maybe the Shire-Folk, who were used by Lotho (the greedy one) and Saruman (the vengeful one)

[Galadriel55]

Maybe the Shire-Folk, who were used by Lotho (the greedy one) and Saruman (the vengeful one)

Veeery close. A little more specific.

[Urwen]

The Shirrifs?

[Galadriel55]

The Shirrifs?

Indeed so! A worthy service turned to evil purposes by Lotho and Saruman. Over to you!

[Urwen]

Speaking of groups.....

Which group of people attempted - and failed - to avenge their fallen leader?

[Urwen]

Give this some love too. :)

[Galadriel55]

Give this some love too. :)

Not sure how. Haven't thought of such a group yet - that would also be tied to something bad guy-ish.

[Urwen]

They are definitely listed as villains on Tolkien Gateway.

[Galadriel55]

They are definitely listed as villains on Tolkien Gateway.

If they really are villains, confirmation from the TG is not really necessary. Hmm...

The goblins from the Misty Mountains, attacking in the Battle of Five Armies to avenge the Dwarves for the slaying of their King?

[Urwen]

Not who I had in mind.

[Urwen]

It was these guys (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/House_of_the_Mole)


I declare a free-for-all

[Urwen]

And I am in ASOIAF mood, so.....

Which bad guy did a thing which would be considered normal in ASOIAF-verse, but bad in Tolkien-verse?

[Pervinca Took]

I've never read a sentence or watched a single episode of it, I'm afraid. Don't want to start, either. I don't have time.

[Urwen]

Okay.

[Urwen]

Then maybe you'd be interested in giving a question of your own, here? :)

[Pervinca Took]

No time at the moment - sorry.

[Urwen]

Time to revive this as well.

How did Morleg die?



:cool: