WWJ VIII ~ Things That Go "Quack" In The Night

[Diamond18]

In the little, out-of-the-way village of Ducktapia, situated on the shores of Wereduck Pond, legend and myth are a money making enterprise. Tourists and travelers passing through the quaint little town drop their coin in the kitschy gift shops selling angry looking stuffed ducks and lurid tales of murder and mayhem. There is a sign posted on the edge of town that reads, “Ask Not for Whom the Duck Quacks, It Quacks for Thee.”

No one who lives in Ducktapia truly believes in the old tales of evil that lurk in the pond -- it’s all campfire stories and children’s games. The motley assortment of species that dwell in this most singular of villages -- hobbits, dwarves, men, elves, and the odd reformed orc -- blissfully fish, swim, and occasionally jet ski in the cool waters of Wereduck Pond.

Yet, hark, for from the darkest depths of the deepest puddle comes a quack, quack, quacking. Out from a nest of unspeakable evil waddles a creature so foul even the Ringwraiths fear the flap of its wing. A creeping disease drips from its bill of doom, infecting those who were once fair, turning them fowl like unto itself. Even as it creeps back to the hell from whence it came, it leaves in its wake the spawn of its general unpleasantness.

Beware!

Beware its devil eyes and loathsome down, for they mean death, despair, and doom to all.

Who are these creatures, once upstanding and trustworthy, now twisted and dark? Who now prey on their fellow villagers? Which of them waddles among us?

Sadly, these questions must go unanswered, nay, unasked, until death slaps its clammy, webbed foot down upon the neck of the first victim.

See the Tol-in-Gaurhoth Junior (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=459869#post459869) thread for details, sign-up, etc. Please do not post here until the beginning of the game.

[Diamond18]

Welcome to the game of Wereducks. A refresher of the Werewolf rules and a review of my variations are as follows, please read carefully:

Seventeen villagers there shall be
In fair Ducktapia down by the sea

Ten poor Ordos there shall see
That evil Wereducks shall there be three

The fearless Hawk will number one
And a Nightingale will join the fun

One mad Goose a Duck wants to be
One noble Owl looks for truths to See

One secret to discover there shall be
In fair Ducktapia down by the sea

Yes, I am the ill fated Halfling poet so my game intro must be in bad rhyme. Now in plain English:

There will be 10 Ordos, 3 Wereducks, 1 Hawk, 1 Nightingale, 1 Goose, and 1 Owl. PLUS there is a secret aspect to this game the nature of which I will not reveal but if any of you can figure it out before the game ends, the person who does so will get special adulation when I ape Mith’s modding and give out awards. :D

There are two phases to the game, Night and Day.

During the Night the three Wereducks PM each other and decided on one villager to kill. Each Wereduck must PM me the agreed upon kill separately. Also during the Night the Owl may PM me to learn the guilt or innocence of one villager. The Nightingale must PM me with the name of a villager s/he wishes to protect should the Ducks attempt to kill that player.

During the Day all villagers discuss the situation and must decide who to lynch on suspicion of being a Wereduck. There will be NO double lynchings and NO retraction of votes. If at the end of the Day there is a tie, the first villager to reach the fated number will be the one to die.

The Hawk and the Nightingale may PM each other at any time, Day or Night.

The Hawk may PM me at any time, Day or Night to select one villager to kill should s/he die either by lynching or at the hands of the Wereducks. If they had hands. At any rate, the last name PMed to me at the time of the Hawk’s death shall be the Hawk’s victim.

The Goose wants the Ducks to win and must work toward this goal during the Day, but s/he may not PM anyone at any time. The Ducks do not know who s/he is and s/he does not know who the Ducks are.

Ordos may not PM anyone at anytime.

The game ends when:

The Wereducks bring down the villagers to match their number. This results in a Wereduck Win.

Or

The Villagers kill every last Wereduck. This results in a Village Win.

The game begins NOW with a Night Phase. The Wereducks and the Hawk/Nightingale may PM each other starting now. (There is no need for the Ducks, Hawk, or Nightingale to PM me the first night.) The Owl must PM me within those next 24 hours to learn the identity of one other villager. NOTE: I will only be revealing whether a person is a Duck or Not A Duck. The Owl will not learn whether the Innocents are Gifteds or Ordos. By this same token, when an Innocent dies I will NOT be revealing whether or not s/he was a Gifted.

I think that’s it.

Night 1 has now begun but you may not post in this thread till the Day begins.

[Diamond18]

Late one April night Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet, sat in her cellar scratching out poorly rhyming phrases onto parchment with a quill pen. She lived in the cellar of the local Saggar Maker, for she was a singular hobbit in that she preferred her home to be dank and smelly. She was hard pressed to find any really good nasty, wet, dark holes to live in that were not already taken up by those bothersome reformed Orcs, and the rent for the cellar was cheap. The nice smell of decay often helped inspire her poetry.

On this night, however, even the smell of earthworms waking up was not enough to fuel her creativity. “Oh bother,” she cried, crumpling up the paper and tossing it into the wastebasket. “This will never come out right! I wish I were an Elf! Poetry comes so naturally to them, blast those poncy fools!”

“Quack.”

“What? What was that?” she looked up, but in the long ensuing silence heard nothing more. She gave a shrug and set to scratching out her poetry again, and for a time the rasping of the feather tip was the only sound.

“Quack.”

Diamond looked up, and eyed the door dubiously. “Some kid,” she muttered, “playing a prank.”

That gave her an idea, so she crumpled up the sheet again and started over. “Yes, yes,” she smiled to herself as curling lines of ink poured themselves over the paper, “this is more like it.”

“Quack.”

“All right, young prankster, that’s enough,” the hobbit planted her hairy feet on the earthen floor and stomped over to the cellar door. “It’s hard enough writing poetry without constant interruption.” She flung open the door to let in the night, but something far worse awaited her. “No,” she stumbled backwards, eyes widening in fear at the terrifying sight, “it can’t be...!”

Quoth the Wereducks, “Quack. Quack. Quack.”


~ Day One ~


The villagers found her the next morning, draped over her writing desk, covered in blood and welts. All over the floor were bloody, webbed footprints. Beside her body lay the beginnings of a poem:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many an ill and awkward line of my rhyming chore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, presently there came a quacking,
Someone there was gently quacking, quacking at my cellar door.
“ ’Tis some prankster,” I muttered, “quacking at my cellar door;
Only this, and nothing more.”

“It can’t be,” said the hobbits among them. “It’s just a legend!”

“Look,” said one astute human, “there are three sets of footprints. There are three of them!”

“We shall chop off their heads,” growled the dwarven folk.

“We snapums neuckums!” declared the Orcs, helpfully.

“Oh, will our village ever be the same again?” wondered the Ent.

Quoth the Elven, “Nevermore!”

~~~~~~~~~

~ The Dead ~

Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet ~ Villager ~ Pecked to death on Night 1

~ The Living ~

Anguirel the Baritone Bird Catcher
Mithalwen the Elven Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker
Saucepan Man the Orcish Scarecrow
Mormegil the Elven Idleman
Valier the Dwarven Millet Spray Picker
Nogrod the Dwarven Personal Fitness Instructor
Kath the Rainbow Catcher
Cailín the Bird-portraitist
Roa Aoife the Batwoman
Nilpaurion Felagund the Elven Pigeon-Summoning Ninja
Glirdan the Entish Tree Herder
Lote22 the Elven Igloo Maker
Lalaith the Halfling Chubb Fuddler
JennyHallu the Halfling Mountaintop Guru
Elu Ancalime the Didgeridoo Dwarf
Sleepy Ranger the Exiled Jedi Master
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Spider Loving Orcish Astronaut

Day 1 starts now.

[Glirdan]

Ho hum...This is a tragedy. I greatly enjoyed that young Halflings poetry. Ho hummmm ho!! I can't believe that someone in this here village (wait, what am I doing living in a village? Oh well, I'll figure that out later...) would be as cruel as this and that the legend is real. But the proof is right in front of us. We must catch these hrrruuuummm ducks before they can strike again!! For our dear Diamond!! I promise you, I will find all these Ducks and get revenge for you my friend!! Hooo huuummmmm!!!

I suggest watching those two evil folk as you Men, Dwarves and Elves would call them. There is a far older name for them in the language of Ents, yet it is to long to say. Anyway, what was I saying? Right...We must watch that Orc and Spider. I'm sure they're up to some mischief. Spiders tend to spin webs of lies, definetly watch that one. As for the Orc...what is he doing living amongst us peacable folk? Definetly watch them I will. Hrrrrrrruuuuuuummmmmm!!!

[Glirdan]

Sorry for the double post, but I must retire to the woods and go herd those trees now. I shall be back later with some thoughts.

[mormegil]

Meh, Diamond really didn't provide me with much by the way of entertainment. Though if this continues I may wind up dead too, which would prove too tragic to imagine. My poor life cut short after only two ages. *sigh* Well I would like to pay somebody to solve this for me. Any takers? I pay well.

[Valier]

Gggggrrrrr What's all this? Diamond dead? *Strokes beard* I don't like the looks of this at all! I can't say I cared much for her poetry,but this is unacceptable! I never wanted her dead. We must do what we can to weed out these villans. I must take time to think on this, but I will return.

[Cailín]

Well. Wereducks, eh? From what deep pit of hell did that horror first wobble out?

I trust none of ye. And let them Elves, Ents and Halflings not start with their holier-than-thou attitude, for I have to say I suspect them the most. Maybe a bit too much in tune with nature, if you get what I mean.

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway. Unless they accidentally quack, in which case I will have to catch them in pretty pastels before chopping of their traitorous heads. But let us not assume too much.

Strategies? Sense? If we were sensible, we'd burn down this village and rid our precious world from this terrible, quacking evil once and for all. No takers? Then I guess analysis is the way to go. How painfully dull.

[Anguirel]

Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja...

Glirdan the Ent is being oddly hasty. How curious. Perhaps he's no true Ent but, in fact, a foul (fowl?) webbed predator!

Yet he is, after all, a fairly young Ent. Almost an Enting by my reckoning. So, Glirdan, be not so quick to accuse on account of race. Outcasts of society, the unfortunate Orcs make easy targets, but I'm sure if we give them a chance they'll be a vast help to the community. Unless they are ducks, that is...

Mormegil, you must help yourself. Idle as you may be, you are an Elf and reputed a wise one! Let us have more thought from you...

[Anguirel]

Well. Wereducks, eh? From what deep pit of hell did that horror first wobble out?

I trust none of ye. And let them Elves, Ents and Halflings not start with their holier-than-thou attitude, for I have to say I suspect them the most. Maybe a bit too much in tune with nature, if you get what I mean.

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.

Spot the contradiction! Or is that supposed to be...witty? Frivolity at a time like this!

Your comment about the next death is rather depressing, Miss Bird-Portraitist...but not necessarily correct. Experience-as I suspect you well know-will play but a part in the ducks' decision-the rest determined by what we do or say. If any of us in our perambulations strikes too well upon a culprit, they may well be punished for it.

Remember the words regarding the Seer: What did the victim get right? Why did the ducks kill him/her? Complicated by the fact we won't even know if the ducks are right or not...

This new state of affairs, killings remaining mysterious, will cause much befuddlement and for a start greatly increase the hampering powers of, say, the Goose. Still, we must put up with it...

Should we discuss this angle of the situation and how to deal with it? Do any of you have any other questions to raise? Or are you content to sit and fling insults at each other?

[Cailín]

Well, well, Ang, dear. No need to yell at me. Of course, I do prefer just randomly insulting people but if you wish me to be serious than I will. You are limiting me in my freedom of artistic expression, you are.

The new situation does seem rather troublesome. I fear though, that we will have to keep public discussion limited and let each Gifted handle it as they choose. We will know, of course, when the Hawk dies, the Nightingale is rather inconsequential, but the painful part is not being sure of our Owl. Never follow blindly the words of the dead, that is my advice.

And let it come. We will see. It might harm the Ducks more than us.

Besides, there is no contradiction there. I do not like people acting better than me, but that does not mean I cannot act better than others. 'Cause strangely, I have no problems with that at all.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

This new state of affairs, killings remaining mysterious, will cause much befuddlement and for a start greatly increase the hampering powers of, say, the Goose. Still, we must put up with it...

Should we discuss this angle of the situation and how to deal with it? Do any of you have any other questions to raise? Or are you content to sit and fling insults at each other?Well, the biggest problem, I think, is that we don't know when the Goose is dead and therefore we don't know how many foes there are left. But then again, the Ducks and the Goose don't know each other, so it baffles them just as much. I've heard tales of Villages where the Seer was lost early on and still they survived. I think our situation can be compared to that. The Seer may reveal themselves before their death, and they may not. It's up to them and that's it. In any case, we have to trust our own abilities as much as possible, but that's nothing new, now is it?

About throwing insults at each other, sometimes they turn out to be handy, too... you lot of useless ghazbgûrgnizgs!!! Okay, maybe not that kind of insults. However, the sooner we seriously start going after the Ducks, the more material we will have to build our cases on.

Hey, a question: are the Ducks able to PM during Day, too? If they are, that might make them slightly bolder voting-wise, for example...

[Lalaith]

A halfling dead! Our noble rhymster! We were already outnumbered in this village...
I too am troubled by the prospect of our Owl dying without trace, as it were.
I fear though, that we will have to keep public discussion limited
This I agree with, in as far as we should not speculate as to the gifted status of the living. But I do think we should speculate as to general strategy, particularly now in these early days when there is little else to talk about.

We could of course go by the rule that the Ducks will kill the villager who appears to them most Owlish, and so we could assume that the dead one got something right. On the other hand, though, Ducks could select their kill in order deliberately to confuse.

are the Ducks able to PM during Day, too?
Well, the rules say During the Night the three Wereducks PM each other . So I assume they can't PM during the day. But maybe Moddess Goddess could confirm.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have eyes everywhere . . . no, not that way.

I am unseen. I am unfelt. I can see and hear much this way. Therefore I have gathered much information about all of you, and from this I have determined . . .

Uh, what's with the scroll?

i-inu-tori-saru-hitsuji . . . Aka Higi: Hyakki no Pigeon*!

With this I shall defend this village! (Not a reference to Gift.)

So, I'll leave these pigeons with you. I have to go.

++Nilpaurion Felagund
__________________
Secret Red Technique: Hundred Pigeons.

[Nogrod]

Hello there fellow villagers!

I agree with the point of doing something reasonable on the first day.

One thing I've been thinking, is that we would be decent villagers, if we were to try and help the owl to begin with. The situation is a new one - and at least I, if I were a seer, would be more than happy to hear other peoples opinions about the tactics. Many heads see the problematic issues better than one. That would, then be, really building our first defences.

What worries me in this situation, is that we stand a very high risk of losing all the dreams, with no way to convince ourselves, whose post are worth looking really closely. Just think of the confusion, when we start to guess, on the basis of one's or other's post afterwards, whether their suspicions were owl-like or not! And then the wereducks plotting in the midst of that chaos...

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! The nasty Wereducks killed the nice Halfling poet. I don’t hold much with poetry and the like. It makes my head hurt. But Miss Took was kind to me and did not treat me as an outcast just ‘cos I’m an Orc, unlike some I could mention.

*Glares at Glirdan*

But Halflings are weak and easy prey for these evil Ducks. Not like us Orcs. We are strong. We command! I have no fear of Ducks. They should fear me, ‘cos it’s my job to scare birds and I’m good at it. I will laugh in the face of their misshapen bills! I will roar to drown out their ridiculous quacks! I will spit on their downy backs! No, they hold no fear for me. So let’s hunt them down like the overgrown game-birds that they are!

I suggest watching those two evil folk as you Men, Dwarves and Elves would call them.How hasty you are in trying to stoke up the village’s prejudices against us Orckind, Glirdan. As the enlightened bird-catcher has pointed out, we make easy targets. But we are reformed Orcs, not the evil creatures of the olden tales. Many amongst you will know how useful I have proved myself in scaring the crows away from your crops. And so I hope to prove myself equally useful to the village in seeking out and destroying these Ducks of Udún.

I suppose it should not surprise me, coming from an overgrown twig such as yourself. But I wonder if there is some scheming behind your attempt to pick on the more vulnerable members of this village. I will be keeping an Orcish eye on you, Ent. ‘Tis oftentimes the case that those who arrive first at the scene turn out to be those who committed the grisly act.

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out. Perhaps he would rather help the Duckish cause, either because he is one of them himself or because, being but a Goose, wants them to suck seed – er - succeed.

There is little point now in dwelling at length on the consequences of our inability to recognise the Gifteds (except, of course, the Hawk) following their deaths. Not until the Ducks kill again, at least. So, they (and especially the Owl) should act as they see fit with that knowledge in mind.

What worries me in this situation, is that we stand a very high risk of losing all the dreams, with no way to convince ourselves, whose post are worth looking really closely.That is something which I am sure has occurred to all of us (guilty and innocent alike), and one of which I am sure the Owl is only too aware. But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.

Admittedly, unless the Ducks slip up, this first Day will most likely provide little enlightenment to us while we are living through it. But things that are said now may prove helpful to us in the future. Remember, the Wereducks will be trying to maintain a semblance of innocence on the surface. But, underneath the water, their nasty little legs will be paddling furiously. We need to try to spot the guilty activity below the surface. And to do that, we all need to keep talking, and thereby force the Ducks to keep quacking or else stand out like targets in a shooting gallery.

[The Saucepan Man]

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out.Oops! Being an Orc of little brain, I see that I misread mormegil's post. He wants to pay someone to help him out. Well, my comments stand. That's just selfish. Why should he be in any better position just because he is rich? Perhaps he is trying to buy innocents onto his side and thereby use them for his evil ends. I still don't like him. Filthy tark! :p ;)

[Kath]

Ah I see Nilp has arrived! :rolleyes:

I have little time right now, I've just seen a rainbow and must go catch it! But I will return later to see what's been going on.

[Mithalwen]

Just checking in here - I don't expect to be able to do much more than read what others have posted. As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options. On the first day it is a darned sight more useful than a lot of "oh woe is me Diamond is dead/ ooh I have had a hard morning knocking the saggar-makers bottoms" ...

However some peoples' professions just demand a few cheap and pointless jibes... but I shall resist for now.... :D

[Mithalwen]

A few statistics:

12/17 have at least checked in thought there has been a vote. Waiting to hear from Roa, Lote22, JennyH, Elu Ancalime and Sleepy but allowing for timezones, school/ work ... no real significance there.

There are 7 non-ordos. So at least 2 must have posted already, statistically 4 is more likely... again that doesn't get us much further ..... Hope to be more helpful later....

[Sleepy Ranger]

I sense a disturbance in the force...

H'llo ladies and gentlemen, you all know me as Sleepy Ranger, I've never been anything significant in your community seeing how I've always stuck to myself but now... aye, now it seems you need all the help you can get and I'm here to offer all that I can.

Now then, as I state in all games my Day 1 vote will be random unless the seer decides to reveal themself today or unless its a very convincing case against someone. Now then, its always fun to see people take random jabs at occupations but I'm totally against using it as the basis of an arguement, Day 1 or whatever. If somebody votes because of occupation its no better (or worse) than a random vote, which ironically I have nothing against... :rolleyes:

I'll check in later today, for now there are some matters that require my immediate attention. G'day!

[The Saucepan Man]

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options.Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).

As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.That's a strange way of putting it. Referring to them being "in league" makes it sound slightly sinister, whereas this is very much to our advantage. Still, I s'pose a Duck would have chosen her words more carefully ...

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.That jumped out at me too. I would have thought that there are a number who could be in danger tonight, purely on the basis of reputation. Why pick on those two? Are you trying to set them up for a fall?

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

[Anguirel]

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

I disagree, as a matter of fact. Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence. I think Nilp probably has too much respect for his customs to perjure them...

I tell you what I'd like at some stage, when we've all talked a bit more. One of those nice, gently ironic, summary of everything posted so far posts by Lady Spawnowen (or is it Ghashspawnthrurg?) They have a rather stabilising effect, like a drink of water. Even when she's guilty...

So far my suspicions have tallied somewhat with those of the Saucepan Man-alarm at Cailin's doom-mongering coupled with a feeling morm might be a Goose. But this in itself makes me suspect Saucie-not, of course, because he's an Orc, but because us "thinking alike" seems far too neat. I have therefore studied his contributions in some detail...and think they're quite sensible. Argh.

Like Mithalwen, I don't tend to see baneful intent behind Nogrod's suggestion that we brainstorm about the Owl position. But I'm also starting to think that perhaps the Owl had better work it out for itself after all.

[Nogrod]

But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.


Originally Posted by The Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker
I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options.

Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).


I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind. As I said earlier, this is just so different situation, as we will not have a track-record to trail after, if s/he dies. That's why I thought we could help the Owl by trying our best. Were I an Owl, I would appreciate the help (I was a seer in my first ever game, and boy was I lost! - and with this new rule, it's not obvious, that the traditional tactics apply).

And making arguments have this nice quality, that they can be shared - so no wolfy-orcsy-ducky scheming in there - as everyone can see a good point and a bad point... The duckies might want to twist good arguments by downplaying their worth, by attacking them rhetorically, or whatever. But even a duck can't twist 2+2 to 17,453...

So Saucepanman: your posts just quoted up above, put you in the head of my suspicion list to begin with... :smokin:

1) the counter-argument is just a bad one (and as I have the impression of you being an intelligent person - that just calls to see foul-play in it).

2) Your second point: "In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing" could be seen as a rhetorical turn-around, trying deliberately to twist us out from helping the Owl, to loosely thrown out and about suspicions about other people (& trying to make yourself look like considerate person).

3) And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance? At least it's not a call to have any discussion, that would reveal anyone's attitudes - or would make them slip anything.

This is just, what I would like all of us to be wary of! Sensible points put down or twisted, or set aside, with no real arguments, but leaning on other grounds like rhetorics, charisma, earlier renown, whatever...

Spm. I know, that a good and thinking villager might be doing something like the thing you are doing - opening some, even shallowly grounded - suspicions by casting his eye anywhere to find something doubtful on the first day. It's always better to have a reason for one's vote, even in the first day. You should see, that I'm doing exactly the same thing here. :)

EDIT: X-posted with Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

*BAM!* *POW!* Holy Wereducks! A fowl plot is clearly afoot. Upon webbed feet, no less. What sinister mind could have spawned this scheme? Who among us would so boldly fly in the face of justice? I shall bend all of my mental powers to discerning this riddle. Hopefully my military experience will aid me in this quest.

Okay, I've had my fun. (For those of you who don't know, that was referencing the original Batman, which is far more comical than the current.) Well, several things I'd like to point out.

1. We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.

2. I actually understand not wanting to vote for certain people on Day 1. There are certain people in the village who can be a great help when they are innocent, and I certainly don't want them gone so quickly.

3. I find Nilp's self-vote annoying. Does he actually become more helpful if he survives Day 1? If so, leave him. If not, get rid of him. (This goes back to point 2.)

4. As a highly intelligent Jenny once said (even if she was a WereOrc), "Maybe the reason we can never find anything on Day 1 is because we all just sit around complaining about Day 1." (Maybe slightly off, but that was the gist of it.)

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! I should be in the fields scaring off birds. But there are some (rather hastily made) points which need answering.

Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence.But that could be precisely what he wants us to think. The fact is that his self-vote does not give anything away, as it is what we would expect from him. It’s unhelpful, even in future days when Day 1 ramblings might reveal more. That’s why I am suspicious of him.

I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind.It provokes the Owl into having to think how he or she should react to the discussion. And that in itself could lead to something being said which an observant Duck might pick up on. I am not saying that it will inevitably endanger the Owl. But it carries that risk. I would rather trust the Owl to make his or her own decisions.

And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance?

We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating. :D

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.

I'm off to the fields now for a few hours. I'll be back later to see what has transpired.

[Anguirel]

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating. :D

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.


Playing Morgoth's Advocate here somewhat, as I pretty much agree with you...again...accusations and suspicions may force the Ducks to think, to act and react, but they also are the only ones with knowledge and can chase us up many a gum-tree. They are therefore...well, exhilirating...to a Duck. Though they can admittedly put them on the defensive, it won't be a very pronounced defensive, as no one will admit to knowing anything solid.

On the other hand, there's very little else we can do. I think I narrowly prefer Saucie's "find some flimsy reasoning" basis to Sleepy's "random" basis. Random votes are almost always not random anyway...

I myself often surrender to the strong temptation to thrw analysis to the wind and spend the first day avenging some absurdly petty grudge...

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

Nogrod and SPM? What do they have in common, based on your reasoning above? I don't quite see how Nogrod makes it.

And I think perhaps we should give Mith a chance. The statistical stuff was useful for a short post, if a bit disturbingly dispassionate, I suppose. She'll be back with Enlightenment.

[Nogrod]

Ok.

The thing troubling me is, that the normally wise seer-tactics may not be good Owl tactics. I'm sure the Owl has gotten that. I don't think s/he is a dummy. But even the wise need assistance - and I'm not saying, I'm the one to assist the wise - but we all together.

See Lmp's game-planning in the TiG -thread. He's clearly an intelligent man - and has tested his game beforehand, but still there seem to be problems which he will have to revise. I myself like to go on coming up with theories, on how to protect the village the best way, and have handed them out for everyone to scrutinize. That way we have been able to abandon them, when they are faulty, or stick to them, when they are fine. I know that has brought about much controvesy, but that's the price one has to pay for playing to the village. So even as I totally trust our Owl to make her/his own decisions, we might try to help her/him. But I can't do it alone... Others need to join.

But I'll start, as no-one else seems ready to play openly (I know this is hard).

So. No tracks left after death.

What does this mean? Normal tactics (hanker down, gather information and reveal them when you have enough - and back yourself up by leaving hints behind you to be recollected after your death & general revealment of being the seer) might not be the best code of conduct here, as every day passing makes it more probable, that an untimely death comes to visit, and all has been in vain? All dreams totally lost?

Well that's my first question: is there any reasonable way for the shaman to work confidently for a longer period? In a normal game there is. But now any hinting might call the ducks around at night, and we rest would be left uniformed. Maybe it would be good, if we all ordos would go on hinting of our Owlish knowledge - just to confuse the ducks? I'm not sure about this one. In the bad instance, it would just leave us with even more confusion - if the ducks get the Owl untimely. But otherwise, it might give our Owl more time. So self-sacrifying villagers needed? :) I could personally go for this... if you others don't bring good cases against it.

My second question: the Owl might have a dream of a wolf. What to do? In a normal game - if the situation is not desperate - the seer could just go on unnoticed (leaving a track). But now? Is it wise to possibly die with a knowledge of one duck? This I found a hounting question. Can you others see the advantages or disadvantages of this situation better than me? There might be some reasons to reveal oneself after one duck-dream. But then, I see, that at least myself, I would be somewhat hesitant, wanting to go on with the game and hoping for the best... Or do we have ways to make those dreams known? I understand, these should not be discussed here, as there we might come to the area Spm was worried about - and I am too. But just saying, there is, would help the Owl, and make her/him think more clearly. And before you just say: that must be a duck, trying to make our Owl reveal her/himself prematurely, just think about the logic of this game! The Owl is not a seer...

EDIT: X-posted with Spm and Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

Nogrod and SPM? What do they have in common, based on your reasoning above? I don't quite see how Nogrod makes it.


Nogrod also keeps urging for startegies without really coming up with any viable ones (just his standard discussion of the gifted.)For all his talk, he's behaving in a very similar way to SPM, though they speak differently.

EDIT: Cross posted with Nogrod

[mormegil]

I tried to be patient with you orc but you push me to far.

First, elves are not Tarks :p .

Second, I pay people because I can and I use my own mind for high and mighty matters, not the slaying of some ducks.

Now I've been thinking and while generally I'm not a fan of owl (seer) talk I think I have something to add preemptively before the goose, if he/she is intelligent will do. I see no harm in stating this though there are some that think ill of me.

Let's think about this shall we:

1. When dead the roles will not be revealed, this includes goose and owl.
2. If the owl proclaims him/herself we will not know of the truth unless we try his/her words.
3. The goose wants to help the Ducks
4. What better way to help than flush out the owl early on?

A strategem I would use, if I were the goose, would be to declare myself the owl on day 3, maybe day 2, and hope that the real owl declares themself. So if you are the real owl and an imposter declares themself, use your discretion.

How is that SpM and Ang? Satisfy you?

Now to get this out of the way, hopefully, I suspect both Kath and SpM of Duckery and say they should hang.

[Nogrod]

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating. :D


With this I truly agree! Day1 is a day as any other (well, not quite as any other), but a day when we have a chance to either succeed or fail... We need people around, trying to do something... and answering something. That's one of the reasons I have been quite fast to go for the silent-one's or random-voters on the day1. I think they disrepute the game, and the playing of it...

If everyone just declared a random vote, with one post on the first day, what would we have on the day2? Not much, but random accusations based on ill-informed hunches of those who had voted for an innocent to death... That's the kind of game the ducks would like to play. But we must fight back!

Why to give the day1 to the werecreatures for free, just hiding our own backs?

[Nogrod]

Let's think about this shall we:

1. When dead the roles will not be revealed, this includes goose and owl.
2. If the owl proclaims him/herself we will not know of the truth unless we try his/her words.
3. The goose wants to help the Ducks
4. What better way to help than flush out the owl early on?

A strategem I would use, if I were the goose, would be to declare myself the owl on day 3, maybe day 2, and hope that the real owl declares themself. So if you are the real owl and an imposter declares themself, use your discretion.


Thanks Morm! This is just what I want us to do! I hadn't even come to think about the goose at this point of the game (haven't ever been in a game with that kind of cobbler-like person) - I could think of a duck doing this, but the goose element will be another distress for us here. So even more posture and mayhem. Needs to be considered by the Owl.

If we all have even one good (or just plausible) idea, then the Owl will have much to think about - and we can communally drop the bad ones - to help her/him to judge the situation in the best way possible.

[Roa_Aoife]

Nogrod- think of it this way. We won't know when the Owl dies, but niether will the Ducks, unless s/he chooses to reveal him/herself. This makes the game quite difficult for them. Rather than depend on dreams, (which, even when we find out who the seer is after death, can still be very misleading) why not depend on reasoned cases? We can all make those. You seem a little nervous this game. Something wrong?


Maybe it would be good, if we all ordos would go on hinting of our Owlish knowledge - just to confuse the ducks? I'm not sure about this one. In the bad instance, it would just leave us with even more confusion - if the ducks get the Owl untimely.

You do realize that stating your intent to do this completely nulifies this plan, since the Ducks can now simply look at who isn't hinting their Owlishness?

There is no reason for the Owl to not follow normal tactics because no one will know who they are when they die. We won't knw if dreams have been lost, niether will the ducks. This allows us to operate in confidence, while they must operate in paranoia. (Much like you seem to be showing.) Obviously is the Owl is about to be lynched s/he should come forward, but beyond that, I should think not. Now, let's leave the Owl alone and focus on Duck Hunting. (Awesome Old-school game....)

I accept SPM's answer... for now. However he is far too dangerous to not be looked at carefully. Especially if he is still alive tomorrow.

Something seems distinctly off about Nogrod. He's looking more and more suspicious to me now.

EDIT: Cross posted with last three

[Roa_Aoife]

Now to get this out of the way, hopefully, I suspect both Kath and SpM of Duckery and say they should hang.

Why? What are your reasons? Is this a nonsense accusation or a serious one?

[Roa_Aoife]

Just as a note: We are still waiting to hear from

Lote22
JennyHallu
Elu Ancalime

They still have plenty of time, though.

[Kath]

Ah that'll be a random one Roa. morm and I traditionally suspect each other, and we both suspect SPM. Just the way we do things!

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE=Roa_Aoife]Nogrod- think of it this way. We won't know when the Owl dies, but niether will the Ducks, unless s/he chooses to reveal him/herself. This makes the game quite difficult for them. Rather than depend on dreams, (which, even when we find out who the seer is after death, can still be very misleading) why not depend on reasoned cases? We can all make those. You seem a little nervous this game. Something wrong?

C'mon... I will still be the one to call for reasoned arguments and cases. You seem not to have read what I have written - or then you are twisting my words. I wouldn't trust you in either of the cases (three games together, twice you have been a were-something) :D

And I have just been worried. The dreams have been quite instrumental in all the victories the villages have had - and that's 4/5 - as I have played the game (forgetting those "outside the Downs" -hints - that truly spoil the game - even if we win with them). I appreciate your contribution to the discussion - when you show (or try to show) me wrong. That's helpful for all of us. But I might like to ask, what makes you so jumpy to go on after others during the first day? Not kind of your way of playing?

And about everyone hinting something Owlishly...
You do realize that stating your intent to do this completely nulifies this plan, since the Ducks can now simply look at who isn't hinting their Owlishness?

You can't be that simple? Of course the Owl would not be the only one staying silent! Or maybe s/he would go on with the conversation? You can't be serious with that remark? You are trying to clear the waters here, where I deliberately wanted to muddy them... hmm... But happily, after this, all will be just one confusion to the ducks. :cool:


There is no reason for the Owl to not follow normal tactics because no one will know who they are when they die. We won't knw if dreams have been lost, niether will the ducks. This allows us to operate in confidence, while they must operate in paranoia. (Much like you seem to be showing.) Obviously is the Owl is about to be lynched s/he should come forward, but beyond that, I should think not.


I'm just not believing this... You can't be a were-creature again!

I would like to hear, why should the Owl play by the standard modus operandi in a game when the dynamics are so different, where after her/his death everything might be down the drain? How is it, that we can "operate" in confidence, and that the ducks will be paranoid?

I see you quick to rebutt ideas, but how about making some "reasoned cases" that you so much seemed to rever earlier in your post?

But anyhow. Good to see you drawn into the discussion with some stakes. Brave of you. I hope you others dare to take that move too. Otherwise we just give this day to the ducks for free.

[Anguirel]

Lord. Things are hotting up.

I do take issue with Roa on one minor point-

I accept SPM's answer... for now. However he is far too dangerous to not be looked at carefully. Especially if he is still alive tomorrow.

This is seriously harsh on the unfortunate Orc. If he fails to die by duck soon, you will suspect him, you say, for that very reason. What if the ducks leave him to stew? The Saucepan Man is a human, er, Orc, and gets things wrong like the rest of us.

I tell you wereducks of true skill do not slay victims because of who they are, but because of what they do.

This Nogrod/Roa spat seems sudden and almost amusing, considering their original Unity against the Forces of Saucie. I almost feel an accusation of orchestration coming on...

[Roa_Aoife]

Ah that'll be a random one Roa. morm and I traditionally suspect each other, and we both suspect SPM. Just the way we do things!

Thanks for clearing that up Kath.

C'mon... I will still be the one to call for reasoned arguments and cases.

I never said you weren't- who's twisting words now? Sure, you call for reasoned arguments and cases about your strategy, but not for catching ducks, which is what I was talking about.

I wouldn't trust you in either of the cases (three games together, twice you have been a were-something)

Actually, 4 times we have played together- twice I was the wolf, onceI was the seer, and once I was an ordo. Once you were were a seer, and all other times you were an ordo.

And I have just been worried. The dreams have been quite instrumental in all the victories the villages have had - and that's 4/5 - as I have played the game

I don't think those dreams were as instrumental in all games as you think they were. My first village lost our seer on the second night, and we went on to win the game. And, often times, the dreams can be twisted by the therianthropes. We are all intelligent players here, capable of finding the Ducks through our own analysis if need be. While the dreams are infinitely helpful, we can wim with out them.


You can't be that simple? Of course the Owl would not be the only one staying silent! Or maybe s/he would go on with the conversation? You can't be serious with that remark? You are trying to clear the waters here, where I deliberately wanted to muddy them... hmm... But happily, after this, all will be just one confusion to the ducks.

I want the waters to be clear so we can spot a Duck. What's to prevent the Ducks from partaking in this? Nothing. And the goose? Eru help us. Not only that, but continual hinting if the owl is involved could point quite obviously to who the Owl is. The Ducks know who's who, so they'll know which of us is on the ball. (And no, I'm not suggesting that you meant we should all come out saying we're the Owl and we know who's innocent. But if we all hint at Owlishness, and accuse/exonerate certain people, the Ducks will know which of us are on to something, and which of us are just full of hot air.)

I would like to hear, why should the Owl play by the standard modus operandi in a game when the dynamics are so different, where after her/his death everything might be down the drain? How is it, that we can "operate" in confidence, and that the ducks will be paranoid?

Because that's always the case. After the seer's death in a normal game, there is no garruntee the villagers will interpret their posts properly. Everything might always go down the drain. But we can rely on reasoning, where as the Ducks will never know if they're safe or about to be found out. Hinestly, you put far too much stock in dreams.

I see you quick to rebutt ideas, but how about making some "reasoned cases" that you so much seemed to rever earlier in your post?

I am building reasoned cases. I don't have much to go on yet, but I am working on cases. Don't you worry about that. (Unless you're a Duck, in which case, go ahead and worry.)

Edit: Cross posted with Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

This is seriously harsh on the unfortunate Orc. If he fails to die by duck soon, you will suspect him, you say, for that very reason. What if the ducks leave him to stew? The Saucepan Man is a human, er, Orc, and gets things wrong like the rest of us.

I wouldn't hang him on that alone, Ang. I've pulled the same stunt before (and it almost worked!) but I know better than to lynch someone simply because they are alive. I won't be letting him out of my sight though. (I never trust anyone in a village untill they are proven innocent.)

This Nogrod/Roa spat seems sudden and almost amusing, considering their original Unity against the Forces of Saucie. I almost feel an accusation of orchestration coming on...

Well, Nogrod is doomed to distrust me, given our history together. Frankly, it would be weird if he did. (It's never really worked out for him before.) What can I say? We're both very agressive, and we both disagree often. Someday, we'll be on the same team and know it, and then we shall be quite the Dynamic Duo, fearsome to our opponents. Untill that time, we're going to argue a lot.

[Cailín]

I merely scanned, apologies if I missed something. First to answer some things:

That jumped out at me too. I would have thought that there are a number who could be in danger tonight, purely on the basis of reputation. Why pick on those two? Are you trying to set them up for a fall?

Feeling left out, SpM? ;) In the last few games I followed / participated in Anguirel and Spawn were (one of the) first to die. Incidentally, in the games Anguirel and I were in together, either he or I or even both of us died before the second Night had ended.

Don't read too much in to it. I could not name all fabulous players in this game, now could I?

As for Nogrod, so desperately wanting to discuss the new Seer. There are three basic things the Owl could do:

- Declare himself rather early on
- Leave (obvious) clues
- Hoping to slip under the radar for a long time

All three ideas have merits and disadvantages and the Owl should decide him/herself what is best. Honestly, every player has a different style and they should react to the situation as they see fit. You are putting too much stress on the issue, Nogrod. If I were the Owl, I would have a plan and would want everyone to stop speculating.

--

I will have to read more closely to form actual suspicions. Nogrod and Roa_Aoife jump out with their continuous bickering, but then again Ordos can launch at each other as well.

I trust Mormegil for now, even though he is a silly idle Elf.

I am currently unsure about Anguirel and Saucepan Man. Both seem different somehow. The others have said too little to be on my radar as of yet.

I am going to reread everything now. Be back soon.

[Anguirel]

Someday, we'll be on the same team and know it, and then we shall be quite fearsome to our opponents. Untill that time, we're going to argue a lot.

And after it, I imagine!

Well, whether or not you've succeeded in confusing the ducks, you've completely befuddled me. It does my heart good to see a duel like that...reminds me of the heady days of the phantom's tirades...

Aggressive Roa and Nogrod both are, to be sure, but that Roa seems a spot more confident. Oh, that didactic first post! She Who Must Be Obeyed!

Incidentally, morm's back on form, but I still suspect him. He has made a possibility that the Goose will employ this ruse into a certainty. He has ensured that the Owl will not be believed till they deliver results. Hmm.

Kath, you seem to be striking from the shadows-anything of your own to add?

[Diamond18]

are the Ducks able to PM during Day, too?
Well, the rules say
During the Night the three Wereducks PM each other
. So I assume they can't PM during the day. But maybe Moddess Goddess could confirm.

The Ducks are not allowed to PM each other during the Day. Ducks can only PM in Duckie form while they paddle about in the pond and that only happens at Night. ;)

[Anguirel]

I merely scanned, apologies if I missed something. First to answer some things:

Feeling left out, SpM? ;) In the last few games I followed / participated in Anguirel and Spawn were (one of the) first to die. Incidentally, in the games Anguirel and I were in together, either he or I or even both of us died before the second Night had ended.

Don't read too much in to it. I could not name all fabulous players in this game, now could I?

As for Nogrod, so desperately wanting to discuss the new Seer. There are three basic things the Owl could do:

- Declare himself rather early on
- Leave (obvious) clues
- Hoping to slip under the radar for a long time

All three ideas have merits and disadvantages and the Owl should decide him/herself what is best. Honestly, every player has a different style and they should react to the situation as they see fit. You are putting too much stress on the issue, Nogrod. If I were the Owl, I would have a plan and would want everyone to stop speculating.

--

I will have to read more closely to form actual suspicions. Nogrod and Roa_Aoife jump out with their continuous bickering, but then again Ordos can launch at each other as well.

I trust Mormegil for now, even though he is a silly idle Elf.

I am currently unsure about Anguirel and Saucepan Man. Both seem different somehow. The others have said too little to be on my radar as of yet.

I am going to reread everything now. Be back soon.

You missed several Owl strategies-it's more complicated than you'd have it. I won't say any more than that in-jokes can be an Owl's salvation.

It's true what you've said about our careers. True and most tragic. Sniff.

Your vote against Nogrod's plan convinces me. Precisely because of that, I am inclined to think Nogrod far more innocent than Roa.

Some justification for your confidence in morm?

And finally, yes, I know what's wrong with me. I haven't made any completely wild and ludicrous accusations on apparently intelligent grounds yet. That's because I've been trying unsuccessfully to construct one against Saucie for most of the afternoon...

[Roa_Aoife]

Your vote against Nogrod's plan convinces me. Precisely because of that, I am inclined to think Nogrod far more innocent than Roa.

You suspect me because I argued against a bad plan? Alright....

And you know, it wouldn't be a Nogrod/Roa spat if more people got involved, like Cailin and Morm. (Thank you Cailin/Morm.)

I'm signing out for a bit. I'll be back on about 5 hours before voting closes.

[Anguirel]

You suspect me because I argued against a bad plan? Alright....


Naturally. Would a duck have the guts to propose such a maniacal scheme?

And what would benefit a duck more than to refute such a maniacal scheme?

Sa-ha! I have you, Mademoiselle Confit-de-Canard! Go and plot with your pals morm and Kath and their craven apprentice Saucie!

(Thinks: blast. How does Cailin fit into the above...?)

[Cailín]

You missed several Owl strategies-it's more complicated than you'd have it. I won't say any more than that in-jokes can be an Owl's salvation.

Did you note the 'basic' strategies? I see your point.

Your vote against Nogrod's plan convinces me. Precisely because of that, I am inclined to think Nogrod far more innocent than Roa.

Hmm... I have been reading their argument carefully (and a good read it is) but cannot say either one of them strikes me as particularly Duckish. I'd say Nogrod would be less inclined to discuss the Owl thing so openly were he a wereduck. But on the other hand, I do not think we should start accusing Roa for overconfidence and what -in my ears- makes sense.

Some justification for your confidence in morm?

Little enough, other than that his Goose comment was something I had not thought of previously. However, your suspicion, Ang, might be justified as well.

--

I have reviewed my opinion: I am not suspicious of the Saucepan Man. Most of the things he said are perfectly sensible. Even though I think that in principle a wolf can hide better behind clever reasoning and (far-fetched) cases than random votes.

[Nogrod]

As for Nogrod, so desperately wanting to discuss the new Seer.


Well. I don't think I have any reason to be "desperate" about subjects to discuss. I have just tried to do my part in
a) helping the village (which I see is happening, as different scenarios and possible traps are brought forwards - slowly, yes, but coming)
b) spurring some more genuine discussion than this "oh how sad that fine-versed halfling is gone!"

And at least I myself have gained some food for thought. Spm. was quick to renounce my initial idea, but came back much smoother after reasoning (and is this reasonable-villager conduct - or very ducky-one?). Roa has been more attacking than ever... she's normally the cool reasoner.

= Roa (answering Ang)
You suspect me because I argued against a bad plan? Alright....


You can't argue against a bad plan if there is none, Roa! Sorry. I've given suggestions for people to think - and by that make out together our common good. As I said, as long as you point to bad ideas in my suggestions, you are doing good... as they are out there to be evaluated and thought of.

I promise to try some new routes on my next post - as I have time for it.

EDIT: X-posted with Cailin & Anguirel

[Valier]

Ggggrrrr can't a dwarf get a quiet sleep around here?.......I guess not! All you chattery Elves and the likes! I must read through the days posts, but will be around again shortly.

[Mithalwen]

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

Give me a chance girl!!!!I did all I could in the time available. Now at least I have something to look at. And I refer you to this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=461791&postcount=1092) .

[mormegil]

Incidentally, morm's back on form, but I still suspect him. He has made a possibility that the Goose will employ this ruse into a certainty. He has ensured that the Owl will not be believed till they deliver results. Hmm.

Ang, Ang, Ang, you are not only obtuse and circumlocutious but you are also instransigent yet it all adds to your individual charm. All I did was point out something in advance to the owl so that he/she wouldn't fall for a ploy that may be employed by the goose. Now the goose may be reticent to employ said tactic. So I saved our owl from making a grevious error, perhaps and helped to stultify a ploy that could have been effective; yet all in all I can see why you'd think I'm still suspicious. So by all means carry on and keep reaching for that rainbow.

[Valier]

Well I have read through and I noticed that Nogrod,SPM,Roa and Ang are all going at it. I know in most *ahem* games Nogrod is always the first to urge awareness of the gifted and Roa normally has something to say about it. SPM I have not played alot with ,but I am pretty sure this is how he plays. and Ang...well he normally gets killed fairly quickly. First day analysising is useless for me...so I won't do it. It is nice to see a loud village though for once. I say we look at the quiet ones who tend to slip below the radar for most of the game and not lynch our loud and multiple talkers.

[Anguirel]

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.

and Ang...well he normally gets killed fairly quickly.

It's always nice to know you're loved...

[Valier]

It's always nice to know you're loved...
I didn't say I was the one who kills you....ya ok I guess I love ya...(unless your a duck!):rolleyes:

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I tell you what I'd like at some stage, when we've all talked a bit more. One of those nice, gently ironic, summary of everything posted so far posts by Lady Spawnowen (or is it Ghashspawnthrurg?) They have a rather stabilising effect, like a drink of water. Even when she's guilty... For those words I would have given you one! But alas, nowadays I really don't have the time in my hands to write them. I'm planning on launching a rocket anytime soon, you see, and I need to sew my eight-legged co-pilot's space suit ready. If I don't get killed next Night as Cailín so cheerily predicted, I'll see if I have time for a summary later.

Talking about tactics so fiercely on Day 1 seems a bit odd. I think we shouldn't agree on a strategy about how to act in certain situations beforehand. Compared to the Ducks, that's one advantage we have: the freedom to change our minds during Day.

Now, onto other things. There are still a few who haven't said anything. I look forward to hearing from them.

The discussions are going on very much like I would have expected, but as I said, I wonder all this talk about Gifteds. Even if the point wasn't to secretly flush out Gifted villagers, it distracts us from spotting the Ducks. Those who join the debate can sure appear helpful and they don't fly under the radar... a duckish scheme? I will reread everything before I make conclusions of this all, though.

One more thing: Mith, four exclamation marks if someone puts you on their suspect list? A little snappish, are we?

[Elu Ancalime]

Whoops! I almost forgot that this game was starting. Elu Ancalime, Dwarf playing Didderidoo, checking in.
________
Michigan Marijuana Dispensary (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[Lalaith]

I'm back again, I've read through our talk so far....and I have a strange feeling of deja vu. Once I dwelt in a village similarly plagued. Two of our most vociferous folk argued long and loud over a point of strategy, causing so much distraction and so much suspicion that both were lynched....and both were innocent. I wonder if we have a similar situation here....or, then again, whether we have something quite different going on.

[Mithalwen]

Traditionally, I have tended to find first and early posting suspicious but this theory has been less reliable of late and I seem to recall that Glirdan, Morm and Valier have posted early before without proving guilty. In anycase these are "I'm here posts" . Unremarkable so far but we are only an hour in.

More interesting is Cailín stating so early who she is not voting for. this could be a hint at giftedness or a duck-trick or a bluff or nothing. Since only the ducks are a gang of three to name two others would be a bold move for a wolf. However the Owl and the Hawk/Nightingale Alliance/Combo/Whatever to avoid creeping out the Saucepan Orc (!), with the use of what I regarded as a neutral term "league", know about one other so to name two might be a fudge. However it seems a clumsy and premature tactic. I don't know Cailín much from personal experience but she has the reputation which suggests greater sophistication. So this is a puzzle which perhaps will become clearer. At this stage I am very much just tossing balls in the air and seeing what happens.

Ang makes the first attempt address the situation seriously. That is a mark in his favour but I must not be prejudiced by my fondness for Mozartian opera -Hopsassa! As a birdcatcher he could prove useful unless he has developed webbed feet :D Slightly puzzled by his reference to the words about the seer?

Then follows a lot of stating of the obvious regarding the conditions (again understandable - I rather think my first post counts as such)... :rolleyes: and Nilp's self vote.

For now I will take this as an honourable route if it is the only participation possible. I don't know if he makes a habit of this but I shall not necessarily be always so lenient. Non-participation makes life so difficult for the true villagers and often plays into the hands of the "three".

Long and insubstantial post from SpM followed by a short but pertinent one by Kath. I seem to remember SpM being Mr- Strategy- and- Plans in previous times.... seems a bit off ..... especially since he goes after Nogrod who could be seen as picking up on Lalaith's sensible suggestion to discuss general strategy.

I am going to break up this post since there have been quite a lot of posts since I started this and there may well be more profitable ways to spend my time. Especially since you have more time to read through the posts for yourselves than I have to decide my vote. :(

[Anguirel]

Mith, the bit that puzzled you was a bad Malbeth gag...

[JennyHallu]

And the final villager checks in. Incorporeally, of course, as it is just too much of a hassle to climb down from my mountaintop. Great view from up here, though.

I've read over the current loquacity, and I'm going to think some things through before voting later tonight.

But a few quick points: Val, in a village this size (truly the largest I have ever overseen), I'm not sure if we can call the ultra-loudness of a mere 4 villagers a loud village.

Roa right now disturbs me a bit. I am used to seeing her careful and thoughtful, and she seems to have thrown caution to the wind, picking little arguments with people on everything but who the ducks might be, and drawing all our attention to the question of why she's being so aggressive. I don't think she's a duck, because I see an evil Roa as even more cautious than usual, but this ultra-aggressiveness is worrisome, especially with a Goose about.

Noggie, dear...you're beating a dead horse again. Unlike many of the villagers, I am so used to seeing you take a hardline position day 1 and argue about it until the village loses its collective hearing, that I tend, at this point, to trust in your innocence. I look forward to seeing you settle into your more helpful late-game persona.

Frankly, I'd like to hear more from most of the village (As I'm sure they'd like to hear from me).

[Mithalwen]

One more thing: Mith, four exclamation marks if someone puts you on their suspect list? A little snappish, are we?

It was not the suspicion that annoyed me but the basis. I don't expect people to have memorised my every word on the admin thread, but my post stated that I didn't have much time and would do more later. Roa seemed to be straw clutching. As do you...

[Nogrod]

The discussions are going on very much like I would have expected, but as I said, I wonder all this talk about Gifteds. Even if the point wasn't to secretly flush out Gifted villagers, it distracts us from spotting the Ducks. Those who join the debate can sure appear helpful and they don't fly under the radar... a duckish scheme?


I don't think we have been talking about gifteds in general - or tried to conjure them out in to the open. One should read, what is written... :p

But it sounds interesting, as you say, that it "distracts us from spotting the Ducks". Without these discussions on Owl tactics - and all that has "spawned" on them, you others would have much less to be wise and cool about... :D I prefer the Hardtalk to nonsense. It actually draws some werecreatures around - and as we speak real issues, and not just whimsical "how-do-you-do" -stuff, we get to see some actions and reactions.

I would like to hear, how would anyone hunt the ducks by just lamenting the whole day and promising random voting?

So people. Do not hang-around, but take part! We will catch no ducks by just waiting for the others to do it - and hoping to save our private necks... :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

Noggie, dear...you're beating a dead horse again. Unlike many of the villagers, I am so used to seeing you take a hardline position day 1 and argue about it until the village loses its collective hearing, that I tend, at this point, to trust in your innocence. I look forward to seeing you settle into your more helpful late-game persona.


Well, well. "A dear"? So where is the wind blowing now from? As you have mainly being a werecreature on our games, and never been kind to me, maybe you are innocent now? :D

But yeah. One has to do, what one sees best the first day, and then on the second, and so on... And it seems to be a bit different on other days than day1. So if I'm alive, rest assured...

[Mithalwen]

I'm tired, hormonal, my blood sugar is crashing and I want to go home and eat and if noone is talking I may as well. Has anyone got else anything to say before I vote?

[Nogrod]

As the kind of European vote is getting nearer, we should try to get some things going... (We probably have two large voting cycles with these "deadlines")

I just watched out for a totally different thing from what we have mainly been discussing about - and possibly insignificant, as there is time still - but anyhow.

Untill now:

Glirdy has posted twice, saying nothing (the first posts of the day, so can't blame him on that)

Nilp has made only a self-vote.

Kath has made one "catching the rainbow -thing and explained the past of her, Morm & Sauce.

Sleepy has posted once, saying he will vote randomly.

Elu has posted once, just checking in.


Lalaith has posted twice, being very careful not to say much of this or that.

Jenny & Valier have posted little, but taken some stances...

The others, I think, have posted somewhat decently.

But as I said, there is time still...

[Sleepy Ranger]

Sorry for the lack of interaction today but I've been busy and still am. However I'd like to say (sorry if said before) that any plan, no matter how much it may distract, should be taken into consideration. For while we may go off the subject off catching us some ducks we may find ourselves an innocent or such. Or trying something else could confuse the ducks.

Hopefully I'll have more time to interact tomorrow (Next Day).

[The Saucepan Man]

This is a noisy village, for the most part, as I suspected it would be. I’m gonna have quite a hard time keeping up.

I see that Nogrod has succeeded in making Owlish tactics and the merits of dicussing them the main topic of conversation after all. :rolleyes: This I regard as entirely unhelpful, for the reasons that I stated earlier. Nevertheless, as others have said, it is quite typical for him on Day 1, and it would be foolish for a Duck to draw attention to himself so. So I hesitate to believe him Duckish purely on the basis of this.

Nevertheless, the discussions centred around our Owl have already done some potential damage, I believe, which really ought to be remedied. Nogrod suggested that we should all drop hints, suggesting our Owlishness, so as to “buy time” for the real Owl. How ludicrous would that be? Every time that an innocent dies, we will be scanning their posts and making accusations based on them, on the basis that the dead villager might have been the real Owl. A lot of dead innocents lie down that road. The Owl too would have to drop hints, since not to do so would mean that he or she would stick out like a sore thumb. But the Owl’s hints would have to be true, so as not to render them useless. And who is in the best position to spot this? I’ll give you a clue. They have bills and webbed feet. So the plan, at best, delivers a pile of dead innocents and, at worst, a dead Owl. ‘Tis a silly plan. We should not go there.

Hmm, maybe I should reassess my opinion of Nogrod. But no. Surely it would be too risky for a Duck to suggest such a dangerous plan here at the beginning of all things.

As for mormegil’s observation that the Goose might try declaring as an Owl, it would be a foolish thing to do, assuming that the Owl is on his or her talons. To be believable, the Goose would have to declare one, probably two, “Ducks“. A wise Owl will remain silent - that should go (and should have gone) without saying. Either the Goose gets “lucky” and a Duck is lynched (in which case the Goose is failing in his or her task) or an innocent is lynched, swiftly followed by the Goose. But by identifying this as a potential risk, you make it more likely that a real Owl declaration, on Day 3 for example, will not be believed. On the contrary, I think that we should believe any Owl declaration. It can soon be accurately, and lethally for a Goose masquerading as an Owl, tested.

This is exactly what I meant when I suggested that we should avoid discussion of Owlish strategy. Not only do we risk putting the Owl in a difficult position, but we also risk tying ourselves up in knots. And now you have got me doing it, albeit to try to repair the damage that has already been done. I suggest we leave the Owl and the other Gifteds to get on with their business and get on with our own which, for true ordos, is analysing, testing, putting forward theories, accusing and, ultimately, voting.

More in that vein soon, although it might not be for an hour or so as my dinner of rat’s tails and mouldy potatoes is shortly to be served …

[Anguirel]

That was an extremely sensible point-yet, sigh, again-Saucie. Goosey goosey gander morm!

Well, I shall vote soon, and at present probably for Kath, the perennial suspect, or possibly morm, the pate-de-foix-gras...

[Lalaith]

SauceOrc, your point about false Owlish hints and their futility makes excellent sense.
However, on the Goosey Owl question, what if said Goosey Owl came up with, not a Duck, but a list of "known innocents"? Think of the confusion....I'm not saying by the way that the true Owl should reveal itself in such a scenario, I'm just pointing it out as a possibility...

[Nogrod]

I see that Nogrod has succeeded in making Owlish tactics and the merits of dicussing them the main topic of conversation after all. :rolleyes: This I regard as entirely unhelpful, for the reasons that I stated earlier.

Nevertheless, the discussions centred around our Owl have already done some potential damage, I believe, which really ought to be remedied. Nogrod suggested that we should all drop hints, suggesting our Owlishness, so as to “buy time” for the real Owl.

Well I said, we should think of that option too. And now, as it starts to be discussed - and the variable pro's and con's are being outlined, it also means, that the ducks can't make it their weapon! This is what I meant. Any one of us, alone, might forget one possible trap or possibility for ducks - and fall in it. Now as we discuss them open, the ducks can't rely on their "threesome-brain" against our one Owl. It's like we are playing together - giving pieces of ideas and offering them to our Owl to think about... and the more ideas, the more problematic it is to our ducks to come up with the working plan.

Sorry: we seem to have a bit different approach to this, but I think laying bare all the possibilities confuse the ducks more - who are already in distress more than we are (I think Farael's game just showed it - WW XX). We should press on them to have the hard times - not making ourselves work a double-shift.

[Anguirel]

Right. Here goes, ladies and gentleorcs, the second vote of the day.

And it goes to

++KATH

This is a dull and unoriginal choice, and I can't make much of a case for it, because Kath has acted as a sort of clarifier but entirely eschewed involvement herself. I do however think it is, in principle, the right thing to do. Not even the most charming Rainbow Chaser should get away with silence without a little attention.

Good luck in the remains of the Day...

[Mithalwen]

Ah Nogrod, dear, we must stop meeting like this!!!

Well I must vote shortly or I won't be in a fit state for anything.

OK I am disregarding for now anyone who hasn't posted a lot or at all eg Nilp, Lote, Elu, Sleepy, Jenny, Glirdan. This is the major disadvantage of the timezone thing in that they may come and post a shed load of interesting stuff the moment I have gone. If they don't well there is time to wait and see if there is a suspicious pattern. Also there is a chance that the ducks would pick on a quiet or silent innocent for tonights victim as it will give us few clues.

Lalaith and Cailin (apart from the odd statement I pointed out earlier) seem to be posting sensibly - can't judge if they are behaving normally.

Valier and Morm.... seem OK so far from what I know of them on what I have read so far and Nogrod is definitely his usual self. If he is pullling that trick as a first time wolf then he is playing a blinder.

Ang, not worrying me yet but he has fooled me before ... then everyone fools me - I have picked a wolf once since game 1 and then I had a choice of 2 :rolleyes:

I did pick a "cobbler" though and the same person is worrying me again for the same reasons. It worries me when peopel I know aren't stupid act stupidly. Saucepanman isn't ringing true to me. Neither is Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant yes they are the people who picked on me. But you see I know I am innocent so the fact that 2 people who said (in posts 12 and 16) that we should make serious efforts to find the ducks find me suspicious for a fine semantic distinction and my habitually excessive punctuation creep me out.

Roa I forgive because she has also supected the SpOrc.... Ok one last look then I vote.


NB cross posted with everything since Nogrod's 65. ALso I haven't totally forgiven Roa...

[The Saucepan Man]

First, elves are not Tarks Doh! I was confusing tarks and bloody-handed Elves. You are either the latter, or something with feathers that swims in water … :p

Now to get this out of the way, hopefully, I suspect both Kath and SpM of Duckery and say they should hang.Really, morm, I would have expected you to make your traditional random accusations against villagers who perhaps don’t know you as well as Kath and I. That might have been more productive. Perhaps you are trying to feign standard behaviour without actually achieving anything of use …

With regard to the spat between Roa and Nogrod, I obviously see far more merit in Roa’s position. Possibly, she is a clever Duck merely prolonging the pointless discussion so as to divert us all from our task in hand. But, just as likely, she is genuinely trying to repair the damage that these Owl speculations have given rise to, as I have myself done. Difficult to say. I don’t see her aggressive behaviour as being out of character. It looks pretty standard to me. But I would like to see more in the way of helpful analysis from her, rather than merely argument about something that should never have become a central point of discussion in the first place.

Long and insubstantial post from SpM

Mithalwen!!!!! (I’ll see your exclamation marks and raise you one ;) ). That was my first post, when little of use had been said or done. I hope that I have been more helpful since. And I hope that you are not trying to spread suspicion on me on the basis of my first (largely “in-character”) post …

Some quick further thoughts on the others before I go. Anguirel, dancing spawn and (after her first post) Cailín, all seem to me to be being helpful and constructive. That is as I would expect, and I have no reason to view them as suspicious for now.

I would like to hear more from Lalaith, Glirdan, Sleepy and Jenny, none of whom have offered much of use so far and all of whom are capable of more.

I mentioned my suspicions of Nilp and his self-vote earler, and they hold.

And I am rather concerned over the piecemeal offerings from Kath, Valier and Elu Ancalime. Speak up, you three! It may be Day 1 and fully reasoned analysis may be difficult, if not impossible. But surely you have something more to say. Only the Ducks have anything to gain from remaining silent today.

And have we heard from Lote22 yet? I think not.

I think that's everyone.

My dinner table calls. Back later with more thoughts.

Edit: Cross-posted with a few there. But now I really do have to go. Back in about an hour.

[Mithalwen]

OK I have decided. I guess I am always inclined to expect the law of averages to assert themselves and make SpM guilty. I will hang fire. And he his showing more of hte expected sophistry in his posts I am aware this will look like spite voting - and I would have resisted it for that reason alone save for this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=463372&postcount=12) .

How come that someone who has read the rules enough to comment on the goose (and is that really the biggest problem? Surely when someone who has been acting like a duck, turns out not to be a duck when they die, we can probably assume that the goose is dead?) not be able to work out that the Ducks may not PM during the day? Seems to me a question someone would ask to try and suggest that they don't know because they aren't a duck. Therefore I think she is a duck.

++Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant

NB I have just checked before posting - and seen SpM's latest post which I find somewhat reassuring .

I really have to go and have no reason to change my mind. Obviously those who can stay to the end may find reason not to agree with me :cool: .

Choose wisely.

[Nogrod]

Just a time-zone issue (as the TiG -thread is full of discussion about lmp's game, I take the liberty of stating it here).

The deadline here in Finland (meaning me and Spawn) is 6AM. So you might get some early votes from the two of us - of course I don't know Spawn's normal schedule...

I have early work tomorrow, and would anyhow have to wake up at 6AM. So I think I'm going to try and get up around 5.30 (or something) to see in to the situation, and vote only at the last minute. Mostly due to the fact, that by now, I haven't got the faintest to go after.

Roa has been suspectively loud and accusing... Spm writes with reason, but twists that somewhat in uneasy ways (ducklike reasoning?). But I really wouldn't like to start trying a case on these two, at least today. As innocents, they would be great assets to us all.

So I might go and review this "not-posting" -section of mine (#65), and see, whether anyone stands there at the time... or whether there has been any enlightenmet otherwise. And I hope, you American-ordos find out the first duck during my sleep, and I just vote for her/him... :rolleyes:

PS. Will be hanging around for a short time still, but retiring soon...

[mormegil]

*sigh* I merely try to help and knew it would go wrong by those who always find fault. SpM you want random accusations? Why? I don't always do them. Plus what's wrong with shaking my style up a bit?

I'm not entirely sure what to make of Kath. Mith brings up great points against Spawn but I may give her the benefit of the doubt. Nogrod makes me look silent in comparison. Anguriel dislikes me because he thinks I'm the goose *honk* I mean that's just silly.

Now Nilp is generally unhelpful on Day 1 and if his desire is to die I may encourage it though he may not be a duck I think it's possible. How are we to know if he continually votes for himself, and as was pointed out, would do so this time to avoid suspicious.

I do agree that there's so much chat at times that it's difficult to stay caught up.

[Valier]

Now Nilp is generally unhelpful on Day 1 and if his desire is to die I may encourage it though he may not be a duck I think it's possible. How are we to know if he continually votes for himself, and as was pointed out, would do so this time to avoid suspicious.



I agree on this point. How, oh how, will we ever know when he is a bad guy? It makes me leary. I am so unsure who to vote for yet, but the day is still young (for me anyways) So I will wait till way later before I commit to a vote.

[Nogrod]

With regard to the spat between Roa and Nogrod, I obviously see far more merit in Roa’s position. Possibly, she is a clever Duck merely prolonging the pointless discussion so as to divert us all from our task in hand. But, just as likely, she is genuinely trying to repair the damage that these Owl speculations have given rise to, as I have myself done. Difficult to say. I don’t see her aggressive behaviour as being out of character. It looks pretty standard to me. But I would like to see more in the way of helpful analysis from her, rather than merely argument about something that should never have become a central point of discussion in the first place.


Spm. before you go on just disrepute away a discussion, I hope you would pay heed to my post #70 and come up with some real arguments. I said it earlier: the ducks will gain from rhetorics, personal authority, throwing things off as self-evident etc. We villagers have nothing to lose, if we bring forward arguments and try to see, how they hold. We can share them, and the ducks just have to follow... If they are bold, the ducks would act just like you do.

And really Spm., read #70 before you answer this... You might be a romantic, believing in the all powerful Owl on our side (I hope we have one, but as I don't know, I'd like to help her/him out as much as I can), beating all the three ducks in solitary pondering - or then you are a duck yourself, trying to hinder the discussion meant to help us good guys.

This is not a question of just pure opinion, or feeling - or self-evidency.

[Lalaith]

Lote22 has indeed not yet posted, nor has she been seen on the Downs for a week. I hope she hasn't forgotten about the game...perhaps someone *cough Glirdy* could give her a nudge.

Saucie, Nogrod, I'm sorry you haven't found me helpful. I thought my point about ducks laying false death trails was quite a good one, oh well...as for who I shall vote for, I don't yet know but shall, with bedtime looming, have to make up my mind shortly.
I am veering towards Nilp - as tradition or no, I don't approve of suicide and find it singularly unhelpful under the current circumstances. It is also a good mask to hide behind.

[Kath]

Yes sorry for my lack of talking today, I will pop the reason for it on the other thread. I was sort of in and out but had no opportunity to make any significant posts.

I will try to catch up now so excuse further silence for a little longer!

[Nogrod]

Saucie, Nogrod, I'm sorry you haven't found me helpful. I thought my point about ducks laying false death trails was quite a good one, oh well...as for who I shall vote for, I don't yet know but shall, with bedtime looming, have to make up my mind shortly.


What I actually said, was:
Lalaith has posted twice, being very careful not to say much of this or that.

Which is in no way a dismerit on what you said, but as you seemed to be very eager to downplay all the thoughts you were bringing forwards (it might be this... on maybe then not), I think it deserves the mentioning: being very careful not to say anything... :p

[Lalaith]

I see - fair enough. But that's just my way, I try to consider all options and possibilities, particularly in the early stages when we have so little to go on. I am saying things, but perhaps not as forcefully as some... ;)

[Kath]

I'm sorry, I'm too exhausted to do anything too analytical, but these are my thoughts on the day. I'm only really mentioning things that kept coming up.

Cailín - liked the way she said who she would not vote for, I think it was a good thing to throw out to try gauge reactions from people. It also means spawn and Ang (the people she mentioned) are liable to stay alive longer and that's good as both are helpful players.

As to this banter between Cailín and Ang, they were the only people about at the time!

Mith - I don't like her use of statistics. For once this has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike and am bad at maths, but that I'm pretty sure she's rather against statistics. Please, Mith, correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you do this is a sticking point for me.

Sleepy - I don't like his assertion that his vote will be random. Throughout Day 1 it is possible to formulate suspicions, unless you turn up 2 minutes before the deadline :rolleyes:

Nogrod - continually mentioned the Owl. This is often regarded as suspicious but I'm more inclined to think that he was just trying to figure out how it worked and this may very possibly have helped the Owl, who will not have played the role like this before even if they've been the Seer.

morm - at this second I'm inclined to trust him (it won't last :rolleyes: ) for that little list he created about the problems of the Goose. It was very sensible, and seemed genuinely helpful. But he is using far too many big words for my poor head right now :(

Roa and Nogrod's fighting seems normal enough. They've played together so many times that they're relationship is probably much like mine and morm's - we don't feel right unless we think the other guilty! Plus, like with Cailín and Ang, there weren't that many others around at the time.

However, Roa's statement about wanting to keep a very close eye on SPM seems a good idea to be rather than something to suspect her for. I'm not saying lynch him now just in case (though I have advocated this before), but he's an extremely smart player and we all know he can pull it off.

Voting:
Nilp --> Nilp
Ang --> Kath
Mith --> spawn

(Mith, I sincerely apologise now if any of those are the wrong order, I checked twice though so they shouldn't be!)

Right now my suspicions are hanging in the air. I can't see anyone to be truly suspicious over. I don't like that Jenny has been so uninvolved since what I've seen of her indicates she would be more into the game.

However, I am most likely to vote for Sleepy since his statement about random votes has not been retracted and I find that very odd given the good arguments against it so far.

[JennyHallu]

Just caught up...sorry for my relative silence so far. A new internet policy at work means that I was being sneaky to show up earlier. Thankfully, dinner is now cooking (hubby's bbqing) and I feel much more free to speak up.

[Lote22]

I'm sorry I'm so late. This is the first chance I've gotten to come on. I've read through parts of what has happened and only one thing really popped out at me. Nilp's vote for himself. I think that's really weird.

So since this is sadly the only chance I'm going to get to come on tonight I'm going to vote now.

++Nilpaurion Felagund

[Glirdan]

I have returned from my long tree herding. However, I will be leaving again to go and tree herd. I do believe that I'll be able to be back for the hooo huummm voting.

How hasty you are in trying to stoke up the village’s prejudices against us Orckind, Glirdan. As the enlightened bird-catcher has pointed out, we make easy targets. But we are reformed Orcs, not the evil creatures of the olden tales. Many amongst you will know how useful I have proved myself in scaring the crows away from your crops. And so I hope to prove myself equally useful to the village in seeking out and destroying these Ducks of Udún.

I am not being prejudice. I am saying that once made evil, always evil. There are a few rare cases that have not turned out this way. Yet we cannot be to sure that this is the case with ye Orc and Spider (In case you didn't know, spawn is in fact a spider). I do not trust you and until some proof comes out saying that you are innocent, I shall always distrust you.

I suppose it should not surprise me, coming from an overgrown twig such as yourself. But I wonder if there is some scheming behind your attempt to pick on the more vulnerable members of this village. I will be keeping an Orcish eye on you, Ent. ‘Tis oftentimes the case that those who arrive first at the scene turn out to be those who committed the grisly act.

And this overgrown twig could easily squish you into a pancake! Watch yourself Orc!!

Here's something odd that I found in Valier's first post:

Gggggrrrrr What's all this? Diamond dead? *Strokes beard* I don't like the looks of this at all! I can't say I cared much for her poetry,but this is unacceptable! I never wanted her dead. We must do what we can to weed out these villans. I must take time to think on this, but I will return.

Slip of the tongue? Or the guilty concious of a Duck? I will keep my eye on you Dwarf.

Glirdan the Ent is being oddly hasty. How curious. Perhaps he's no true Ent but, in fact, a foul (fowl?) webbed predator!

Yet he is, after all, a fairly young Ent. Almost an Enting by my reckoning. So, Glirdan, be not so quick to accuse on account of race. Outcasts of society, the unfortunate Orcs make easy targets, but I'm sure if we give them a chance they'll be a vast help to the community. Unless they are ducks, that is...

As you said, I'm still young. I'm only (even though it will seem old to all of ye) five hundred years old.

I must depart now. However, I will return later.

[Nogrod]

Just pulling over to sleep. I'll try to get my morning adrenaline a bit early from this game - and not from the morning paper only.

I'm inclined to see the "non-posters" then (it might have nothing to do with the "list" so far - we'll see that in the morning). Under-radar werecreatures just freak me out. If we have no better options then, I could go after them.

(And please: someone talked of the ducks picking the silent-ones at night. That would be bad policy from them. They take the one's they are afraid of - if there are no other, more pressing reasons.)

[Kath]

(And please: someone talked of the ducks picking the silent-ones at night. That would be bad policy from them. They take the one's they are afraid of - if there are no other, more pressing reasons.)
Oh really Nogrod? And how would you be knowing this?

[Nogrod]

Oh really Nogrod? And how would you be knowing this?

Just basic reasoning...

Why would they kill people who won't contribute? Ok., there is the fact about people behaving differently as the game progresses. It's an important one. But anyhow. If I would be a duck - and thence know the innocents - I would be very happy to do away with people like Spawn or Roa (or whoever - my experience is limited), if I knew them innocents... really dangerous people to have discussing around and coming up with some well grounded ideas.

But just to make a question: why do you ask? :rolleyes:

Ps. Sorry, I will be answering your possible answer at the last hours, the earliest...

[Kath]

I asked because you seemed to have a lot of insight into this, and I was just wondering whether it was due to you having thought it through via some logic or because you were one!

[Nogrod]

Kath: Consider yourself a duck.
With whom would you like to play the last days of the game: lmp, Boromir & Firefoot (f.ex. - other combinations possible), or with Gil-Galad, Gandalf and Legolas in Spandex (other combinations possible)? You see the point? They want to get rid of certain people, and love certain others...

I don't think that seeing this takes any more intelligence - not to speak of werecreatury - than to add 3+5 :cool:

[Kath]

Nogrod, if I am to consider myself a Duck then I must say I disagree. Think. You've lived through 4/5 Days without getting killed. Why would you want to be left with people who are difficult to sway?

[Nogrod]

Nogrod, if I am to consider myself a Duck then I must say I disagree. Think. You've lived through 4/5 Days without getting killed. Why would you want to be left with people who are difficult to sway?

I guess you didn't get my meaning (or I made it badly). If you are a werecreature, you don't want the "smart-people" to be around there - and you would love to play the rest of the game with those who post only once a day, and only rely on others' opinions... See it now? Kill the smart ones during the nights as soon as possible - leave the "not so threathening ones" alive...

And that's the reason, why hanging under the radar is so a beastie werecreature tactics! If we just ignore them, they could come on us from basically out of nowhere (I remember Alcarillo...).

EDIT: I think I see what you were thinking at: as I said with, I should have said against - if that makes it any clearer? I was thinkinig about "with" as you being the only duck / wolf (whatever) against these people...

[Cailín]

All right, stop the fighting, kids. Just arrived and am catching up. Aren't we a talkative village?

I shall have to vote soon... normally I'd set my alarm clock at 4:30 AM, but I need a good night's sleep.

Here's my personal list for now. Since it is Day 1, it is far from fixed and heavily influenced by recent developements.

Least suspicious (more or less in order)

Saucepan Man - because I recognise his logic. I respect his position on the Gifted debate and he has made some helpful contributions.
Valier - though she may be hiding behind her usual style, I see the same Valier as I am used to. I know she gets more helpful as the Days progress and she has a knack for spotting wolves purely based on intuition.
Lalaith - you give her no credit at all. Her posts are short, but really to the point-ish.
Anguirel - I am not saying I completely trust him, but he seems pretty much Anguirel.

Not so suspicious

Kath - she was late to our cause, but she tries. And tries.
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant - I miss her summary as of yet, but she is sensible still.
Roa_Aoife - same as Nogrod, she was aggressive and not afraid to take the bait
Nogrod - I have not yet played with him before... I have no idea what his usual tactics are. However, his plan was too blunt to be Duckish.

Clueless

Glirdan - too little info.
Nilpaurion - he is so annoying. Truly now.
Lote22 - too little info.
JennyHallu - same as above.
Elu Ancalime - same as above.

Weary (note that I have no true suspects yet. How could I?)

Sleepy Ranger - his random votes... lack of contribution... hesistancy to answer to suspicions and accusations... comments about the plan.
Mithalwen - I don't know her style, but I could not quite follow her vote for Spawn. That may be me, though.
Mormegil - he is just too easy to mistrust.

[mormegil]

I agree with Kath, if I were a Duck I'd rather have talkative people near the end because amongst them I could blend in. So, by killing off the silent type, they leave very few clues. By why am I speculating on this? Meh.

Sadly I think it's prudent for me to vote currently my connection to our discussion at home has been acting strange lately so I will need to post my vote now to ensure that I get it in.

Now the question is who? Nilp makes good cannon fodder but is it an easy way out? But then again he could be guilty. Nogrod, his death would at least slow down the speed of this discussion :p but he may also be guilty. I'm really fairly clueless right now so as to spread things out a bit.

++Nogrod

there is a decent potential of this.

[Kath]

Aha! Yes Nogrod I get your point now, I think I read it the wrong way round before. If that's your stance then I agree.

[Lalaith]

Children, please!

I've been pondering on the Nilp question and I think I'll give him another chance. After all, if he did break the tradition, that would look suspicious, too...

So, who else? I'm not happy with the reasoning Sleepy and Glirdan have been coming up with. I don't understand the points Sleepy is making in his last post, and Glirdan's species-ism seems just spurious.

Of the two, I find Glirdan marginally more dubious.

++GLIRDAN

Edit: cross post with everyone since post 93

[Cailín]

++SLEEPY RANGER

I don't like adding another name to the mix, but I find him more confusing than Glirdan, whom I know to behave rather capriciously sometimes.

[The Saucepan Man]

Mmmm! Tasty rat’s tails. :smokin:

But now to business.

However, on the Goosey Owl question, what if said Goosey Owl came up with, not a Duck, but a list of "known innocents"? Think of the confusion....Possibly. But Goosey Owl would have to wait (and survive) a fair few Days before being able to do that. It is entirely unbelievable that an Owl would declare on Day 2 or 3 (mormegil’s hypothesis) with naught but a handful of innocents.

It worries me when peopel I know aren't stupid act stupidly. Saucepanman isn't ringing true to me.*Bridles in an Orcish manner*

Might I ask in exactly what way I am acting “stupidly”? You may be right, but I wasn’t aware that I was, so it would be nice to know. And why exactly am I “not ringing true”? You did refer to my disquiet over your use of the word “league”. At that stage, very early in the day, I was simply throwing out suspicions here and there based on what little had been said in an effort to see if anything stuck. Doing what ordos are supposed to do - probing and prodding for signs of Duckish reactions. It was just something that jumped out at me, and it would not have meant much if not for your subsequent reaction. You seem very jumpy to me. And your accusations of spawn and me have no substance to them at all. Merely an unjustified “acting stupidly” and “not ringing true”. Oh and seizing on my first “in character” post for being insubstantive. To my mind, this all smacks of a Duck trying to make out a case against those she has targetted, but with very little to go on.

NB I have just checked before posting - and seen SpM's latest post which I find somewhat reassuring.Hmm, backtracking on me because your case against me was looking somewhat threadbare? Yet you vote for spawn simply on the basis of a rule query. Granted, it might be a ploy. But it seems to me much more likely that it was genuine. And it hardly constitutes good grounds for voting for someone who, if innocent, may prove very useful to this village. Again, it looks to me like you are trying to construct a case out of nothing against an opponent you perceive as dangerous.

I know that Mithalwen is no longer around to answer these points. But I see enough there to justify a vote against her. I may well go ahead on that basis. For now, however, I hesistate simply because Mith too is someone who will undoubtedly prove a redoubtable ally if she is innocent.

At the moment, my other main suspects are Nilp, for reasons stated earlier (although I am inclined to give him a chance and see how he acts tomorrow), Valier, for posting and being around without saying much of substance, and Kath, for much the same reason.

As far as Kath is concerned, I think Ang put it rather well when explaining his vote for her:

Kath has acted as a sort of clarifier but entirely eschewed involvement herself.Although she has since gone some way towards making amends.

I also rather agree with Ang that mormegil is acting somewhat “Goosey”. But I am prepared to wait and see what his further contributions may bring.

Spm. before you go on just disrepute away a discussion, I hope you would pay heed to my post #70 and come up with some real arguments. I said it earlier: the ducks will gain from rhetorics, personal authority, throwing things off as self-evident etc.Nogrod, I have considered all that you have said, and I have not changed my mind. I have said just about all I really want to say on your proposals. To my mind they risk causing confusion, diverting the village away from its true goal and possibly putting the Owl in a spot. I have set out my reasons at length and they are “real” enough as far as I am concerned. If you disagree, well that’s a matter for you. The fact that you continue to pursue this hopeless cause mystifies me. I still think that, were you a Duck, you would be foolish to do so. Perhaps that’s what you want us to think, but you do seem genuine enough to me, albeit misguided. I am by no means convinced of your innocence, but I am inclined to to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But please, enough of the Owl talk. Let’s start hearing your theories on who the Ducks might be.

I have a while before I must vote. Time to review the proceedings to date ...

[JennyHallu]

Right now, there is so much going on in the village it is hard for me to jump in and analyze. The village is falling into crazy-confusion, and I'm going to try to be pretty organized rather than perpetuate the problem. I'm going to mention each villager in order of appearance, I think.

And before I begin: All I am likely to say on the whole Owl/Goose thing: In this village, only Lote is a novice, or even an amateur, and I tend to fall on the "shush up about the Gifted already" side of the fence. No one here is incapable of dealing with a Gifted role in an intelligent, if not brilliant manner: it's the equal brilliance we're likely to see from the Ducks that worries me. Therefore, I am looking for Ducks.

Glirdy: His first post is pretty much nonsense, and includes accusations of SPM and Spawn that I'm inclined to look at as pure randomness. He's not said anything else except for two "Ho Hum, I'm herding trees elsewhere" posts.

Morm: Morm is someone I'm inclined to expect a lot of, mostly because I know how helpful he can be. Today, aside from a single post speculating on the Owl, has been only defensive. Seems out of character.

Valier: Valier, in my opinion, has not been terribly helpful today. Several nonsense posts, one pure agreement post, and that leaves one of substance: in which she listed 4 names that stood out and said they're all being normal. While I wish she put more effort into being helpful day 1, I don't think we're seeing anything unusual from her.

Cailín: She and Ang squabble a little, but it doesn't feel like a serious thing, just joking around when noone else was around. She posts later (41) and starts to feel more like the thoughtful person we know. I don't like that she went back to the Owl speculation...but the tentative suspicions she expressed at the end of that post seemed thought out, or if not she honestly admitted it.

Anguirel: Ang has definitely been one of the more involved villagers today. As I said above, I'm discounting most of his squabble with Cailín. Just didn't seem to mean much. I have a lot of respect for Ang as a player: he's very articulate and comes across as very honest. I'm not going to spend a lot of time here because he feels genuinely innocent to me.

DSoU: She's only posted twice today, so don't expect to see a lot here. She had some confusion as to the rules that's been picked up on as a reason for vote. This makes little sense to me. I'd like to hear more from Spawn, but I don't think her question says anything towards her quackiness.

Lalaith: Has seemed sensible to me today, despite suspicion Nogrod has thrown her way. Once again, I don't like the Owl talk, but I have no complaint with Lalaith.

Nilp: Voted for himself...seems to be standard operating procedure. Withholding judgment (or any sort of opinion, really) until tomorrow.

Noggie: Finally quit beating the horse...*whew* I think it has been established that Noggie drives me crazy day 1. Every day 1. Without fail. But he really settles down into such a helpful person...day 1 is really too soon to tell with him.

SPM: I envy him his time to write long posts. However, I don't really feel that he's living up to his reputation at this point. We have lots of volume, most of it saying "Why aren't we looking for ducks?" His suspicions seem to be leaning toward Morm, Nogrod, and Nilp.

Kath: Says little, but to the point. No opinion.

Mith: As someone with mild blood sugar problems, I can accept her excuse for her posting today. But what she's said just...made no sense to me. At all.

Sleepy: Hasn't been helpful...and I don't really like random votes.

Roa: Now some aggressiveness from Roa I expect, but today has just felt a little crazy. I would rest easier if it didn't feel like she was jumping all over trivialities. SPM gave Nogrod credit for success in Owl-talk diversion, but I think it was Roa's crazy loud arguing that made it an issue.

Diamond: Whoops...how'd she get in there? Definitely innocent, as well as being the smartest and best looking person on the list. We shall miss her.

Elu: Has basically just popped in once.

ME: Again...sorry I haven't been around more. My internet habits are about to change drastically, as I am not really allowed on at work anymore. I fudged earlier, and I may be able to get away with it some...but don't count on it. (Trouble is, there's no more work or anything...just no 'Net. Spent most of today reading the dictionary.)

Lote22: Not around yet. But I wouldn't be too surprised if I cross-post with her. I'm likely to cross post with a lot of people doing this.

[Kath]

Right, it really is time for me to vote now. I won't vote for Mith toDay because she hasn't had a chance to come back and answer that point over her using statistics.

Jenny has suddenly appeared with a wealth of talk and opinions so she's off the list.

Which leaves:
++SLEEPY RANGER

[Sleepy Ranger]

Finally... I can finally go to sleep now but first I believe I must leave a vote. I'm afraid my absence today hasn't been to the liking of people but you must understand I was terribly busy and had much to do. Anyway, my random vote policy and more or less everything I've said is staple for all my games and its always brought suspicion on me, I don't find any reason to change at the moment.

In views of self-preservation-

++Nilpaurion Felagund

I didn't really want to do that but as I've been terribly busy and haven't been given a chance to catch up on much of anything thats happened today I'm afraid thats my choice.

[Roa_Aoife]

OKay, I got home 45 minutes ago, and it has taken me all that time to just read through everything. To answer Saucie's request for more analysis- I like to hold my analysis until later in the game, when there are fewer players, or when the players can be broken into groups for more detail. I like detail. A lot.

I like to give the quiet people the benefit of the doubt on Day 1. Sometimes people just need to get into the swing of things. And who knows? Maybe if we let Nilp live, he'll be useful. If he pulls the same stunt tomorrow, I'll probably vote for him, and advocate his banishment from Werewolf. (People like that just take up space and make the game less fun. And if he is a Duck, I find it terribly unsporting and he should be ashamed of himself.) Also, this random vote thing has been Sleepy's deal for the past few games, therianthrope or not. Actually, in the games where he was the enemy he attempted helpfulness on Day 1. So if anything, I think this lowers him on the suspect list.

I finally realized what seemed wierd to me about Nogrod. In the past few games he's been toning down his agression. Now it's suddenly back at it's full peak, including his agression towards anyone (namely me) who didn't agree with him. Strange, did he just decide to drop his (albeit relatively) subdued manner in the passion of his argument? Or is he just being a bold Duck?

Mith, I honestly don't see what you're getting upset at me over. I never said it was a high suspicion. I was just throwing things out, trying to get a bite. You bit quite well, I might add. I understand your current issues, so I'll let it go. Also, having worked with in wolfish behavior, I doubt you would be this jumpy if you really were a Duck. I'll let you slide today, but your look at Spawn seemed to be grasping at straws.

Glirdan strikes me as odd. Note that in this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=463559&postcount=86) he seemed to address all questions raised in his direction without actually answering them. Really, it was just more nonsense, and I know he's capable of more.

As a note to all villagers, please remember this is a game, and taking too much offense to what's being said is rather silly and childish. In the same token, please try not to be insulting or condescending in your posts (ie using words like stupid, etc...)

Edit: Corss posted with Kath and Sleepy.

[Roa_Aoife]

Since it's almost that time

Current votes
Nilp --> Nilp
Ang --> Kath
Mith --> spawn
Lote22 --> Nilp (2)
Morm --> Nogrod
Lalaith --> Glirdan
Cailin --> Sleepy
Kath --> Sleepy (2)
Sleepy --> Nilp (3)

9 people have voted, so that leaves 8 votes. Concievably, the lynch could go either way. I really don't want Nilp or Sleepy to die, since I'm curious as to what they'll do on Day 2. Especially Nilp. I know Sleepy will get better, and he has a legitimate excuse.

[JennyHallu]

My suspicions right now fall mostly on Roa, Mith, and Sleepy.

Roa because it really felt to me like she was the worse aggressor in the whole argument with Noggie, and she seems to be pushing all of that onto Nogrod.

Mith because she didn't really make the logical sense today she usually does.

Sleepy is just someone I'd rather lose than Nilp, who seems to prove very useful after day 1. Sleepy, if your regular way of playing regularly gets you lynched early and innocent, to me that's a reason for change.

[mormegil]

I find Sleepy's sudden vote for Nilp as odd. I know the whole 'self-preservation arguement' so don't bother. However notice how it came immediately after he became tied with Nilp. Obviously Nilp is a person that would be easy to get lynched today so it does seem highly suspect to me.

That being said I think Roa made some good points about Nogrod and it's worth considering.

I finally realized what seemed wierd to me about Nogrod. In the past few games he's been toning down his agression. Now it's suddenly back at it's full peak, including his agression towards anyone (namely me) who didn't agree with him. Strange, did he just decide to drop his (albeit relatively) subdued manner in the passion of his argument? Or is he just being a bold Duck?

My general opinion is that he would be a bold duck.

Incidentally I didn't go straight home but rather went to my Grandmother's house.

[JennyHallu]

Was it over the river and through the woods?

I think I'm willing to give Noggie the benefit of the doubt today. As I said, he really didn't seem as aggressive as he has in the past.

[Elu Ancalime]

I feel obligated to vote but I'd like to form my own personal philosophy to ntoe vote Day 1, because I don't have as much time to analyze, and I'm surprised (should I be?) that there is already legemite (or at least trying to look like it) disscussion.
________
Bob bondurant (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Bob_Bondurant)

[Roa_Aoife]

Roa because it really felt to me like she was the worse aggressor in the whole argument with Noggie, and she seems to be pushing all of that onto Nogrod.


At what point did I try to foist the blame onto Nogrod? I did no such thing. The only who even mentioned blame over the argument was Saucie, and he put at only slightly less guilty than Nogrod. While I dislike Nogrod's plan, I don't find that itself to be suspicious. Nogrod always comes up with this sort of thing on Day 1. It was his method of argument, and the voice he used that caught my attention. He has been far more agressive today than he has in the past few games.

And, Elu, you're visible again.

[Elu Ancalime]

Thanks Valier and Roa for letting me know. Just getting back into town I was rushed to check in, but I'm good now. (I think)
________
Buy Marijuana Seeds (http://marijuanaseeds.org/)

[JennyHallu]

I finally realized what seemed wierd to me about Nogrod. In the past few games he's been toning down his agression. Now it's suddenly back at it's full peak, including his agression towards anyone (namely me) who didn't agree with him. Strange, did he just decide to drop his (albeit relatively) subdued manner in the passion of his argument? Or is he just being a bold Duck? This really felt to me like you were trying to distance yourself from the fact that YOU were the only one to argue with him, and in my opinion you felt incredibly more aggressive than he did.

[Roa_Aoife]

Firstly, I wasn't the only one to argue with him- I was just the one who argued the loudest. Secondly, I never compared my agressiveness to his- I just compared his current agressiveness to his past agressiveness. I also don't see how I was "incredibly" more agressive than he was. I think we were about the same, actually. You're making mountains out of molehills, Jenny, which concerns me, since I've only ever seen you do that as a wolf.

[The Saucepan Man]

I do not trust you and until some proof comes out saying that you are innocent, I shall always distrust you.The feeling is mutual, my woody friend. But we have moved on from the “in-character” banter. I have no reason at the moment to suspect you any more or any less than most of the others present. Although it has to be said that your point about Valier was rather weak.

SPM: I envy him his time to write long posts. However, I don't really feel that he's living up to his reputation at this point.Please, be gentle with me. I'm a Werewolf Junior virgin … ;)

Anyway, I have reviewed the Day, but have little to add to what I said earlier.

I do feel that I owe our Halfling Chubb Fuddler an apology. On reflection, I see that Lalaith has contributed more than I gave her credit for earlier, and with far less verbosity than I. Mostly sensible and constructive. A little thin on the probing and prodding of other villagers, which I still think is the best Day 1 approach, but everyone‘s different I suppose. Certainly, nothing to cause major alarm at the moment.

H'llo ladies and gentlemen, you all know me as Sleepy Ranger, I've never been anything significant in your community seeing how I've always stuck to myself but now... aye, now it seems you need all the help you can get and I'm here to offer all that I can.A curious offer from one who has done little to aid the cause so far. He has attracted some criticism for his declared intention to vote randomly. Like others, I dislike random votes. And, while I believe it is a standard approach for Sleepy, the same points that I made about Nilp apply (interesting then that he voted for Nilp). For now, as with Nilp, I am prepared to tolerate his lack of constructive contribution. I hope to see more from him in the future, though.

My main suspicions remain with Mithalwen at the moment. Indeed, my review has heightened them. She berated me for accusing her on the basis of her referring to the Hawk and Nightingale being “in league”. In fact, I said:

That's a strange way of putting it. Referring to them being "in league" makes it sound slightly sinister, whereas this is very much to our advantage. Still, I s'pose a Duck would have chosen her words more carefully ...Not really an accusation. More a thought, really - one which I pretty much dismissed myself. And yet she reacted quite strongly to it:

But you see I know I am innocent so the fact that 2 people who said (in posts 12 and 16) that we should make serious efforts to find the ducks find me suspicious for a fine semantic distinction and my habitually excessive punctuation creep me out. As I said earlier, she‘s coming across to me as jumpy. Both to my musing about her use of the word “league” and spawn’s comment about her exclamation marks. Neither were serious comments (mine was certainly not and I doubt that spawn’s was) and yet Mithalwen’s reaction was perhaps telling. Roa thinks she’s too jumpy for a Duck. I beg to differ.

For that reason, and because she seems deliberately to have tried constructing spurious cases against spawn and I, I feel justified in voting for her. I know that I’m not a Duck and I have no reason at the moment to think spawn is one. Mith may be a valuable ally, if innocent. But she is also a fearsome opponent if guilty. And, right now, she’s looking decidedly guilty to me. So …

++ MITHALWEN

I am quite aware that my vote is widening yet further a field that is already well spread. But that may be no bad thing. And I am not inclined to consider saving Nilp or Sleepy (and would not be even were I not suspicious of them myself). If they get lynched, it’s their own silly fault for random/suicidal voting. :p :D

And that’s me done for the Day. I’m off to my nice cosy hovel for a good night’s rest. G’night all.

[JennyHallu]

Roa, I think most of your experience with me has been in wolvish or orcish past lives of mine. Really it felt like, while many people disagreed with Noggie, you were the only one to argue with Noggie. A fine distinction, but one that makes a great deal of difference to me. I feel very nervous when the village battle escalates beyond a cold war...loud arguments rarely accomplish anything but distraction. And I consider you to know better than to bait poor Noggie into one.

I think I'm going to go ahead and vote, as I'm off to have family time and don't know if I'll make it back.

I am pretty unsure where my vote is going to go, though, and I don't really want to widen the vote any further. I think I'm going to go with...

++Sleepy. I don't think we can afford to get rid of Nilp day 1. The suicide thing is odd, but normal. I'd like to stay out of the whole Sleepy/Nilp thing, but not if I have to leave 2 hours before sundown. I'll see how things look tomorrow.

[Roa_Aoife]

*pokes head back in* Where'd everybody go? Did the Ducks get evryone while I was eating?

Well, I have only a little bit more time, so I'll vote now.

++Glirdan

For the reason I posted earlier. I have to go talk to Comissioner Gordon about todays events, right after evening cadence. (Read: Time to call my boyfriend and go to bed.)

[Valier]

Current votes
Nilp --> Nilp
Ang --> Kath
Mith --> spawn
Lote22 --> Nilp (2)
Morm --> Nogrod
Lalaith --> Glirdan
Cailin --> Sleepy
Kath --> Sleepy (2)
Sleepy --> Nilp (3)
SPM-->Mithalwen
Roa-->Glirdan
Valier-->Nilp(4)

Well the time is drawing near and I am still unsure who to vote for......

It's hard to make a case for anyone on the first day,but out of all the lynchee's so far I find Nilp to be the most......ok well it always bugs me that he is so suicidal,and I always wonder about his innocence the whole game until he dies. So to put my mind at ease I shall vote for..

++Nilpaurion Felagund

[Diamond18]

Deadline is in 4 minutes. I don't hold with not voting....

[Diamond18]

Deadline is now. Death will be up shortly.

Final vote count:

Nilpaurion Felagund: IIII (Nilp, Lote, Sleepy, Valier)

Sleepy Ranger: III (Cailín, Kath, Jenny)

Glirdan: II (Lalaith, Roa)

Kath: I (Anguirel)

DSofU: I (Mithalwen)

Nogrod: I (Morm)

Mithalwen: I (SpM)

---

Spawn, Nogrod, Elu, and Glirdan did not vote. You have to vote tomorrow or you will die!

[Diamond18]

The village was thrown into turmoil over the Halfling Poet’s death -- chaos and loud arguments reigned. Towards the middle of the day Nilpaurion Felagund arrived and summoned a hundred pigeons, then declared amidst a flurry of feathers and... other... pigeon droppings;

“Kill me! I am a Wereduck!”

“Uh, okay,” agreed the villagers. “If you say so.”

Lote was the first to step forward. She tried to seize the manic ninja but was outmaneuvered for several minutes, as the pigeon master laughed and darted to and fro.

“I think we should kill Sleepy,” Cailín said as she watched Nilp karate chop the struggling Lote.

“Yes, let’s,” nodded Kath.

“Quite. Let’s off him,” came the decree from Jenny, the Mountain-top Guru.

“No way!” said Sleepy. “Oh wait, I mean... You Do No Want To Kill Me.” He waved his hand surreptitiously and arched his eyebrow, giving the villagers an esoteric look. “You Want To Kill Nilp Instead.”

“Oh for pity’s sake,” Valier rolled her eyes, “just stop talking and help me kill him, then!”

And so with a whoosh Sleepy turned on his light-saber and advanced upon Nilp. “Die, Duck!” he cried.

“Ha ha!” said Nilp, then uttered a confusing string of Non-English words which you will have to imagine because the narrator is not bilingual *cough*. “Have at me, Jedi Fool! You are no match for the Duck Side!”

They did battle there, in the growing dusk, parrying and thrusting and executing cool martial arts moves all around the village. Sleepy slew many pigeons as Nilp summoned them to attack. They dove at Sleepy’s eyes and pecked at his hair and aimed projectiles of an organic nature at him, but still he fought. Nilp avoided his every move, though, and it was in vain that his light-saber made cool noises in the night air.

It seemed the battle would go on forever, Jedi against Ninja, but then an odd thing happened.

During a particularly heated exchange of insults between the He-Warriors, Valier and Lote snuck up behind Nilp and doused him with a bucket of hot wax.

He screamed as the burning liquid got in his eyes, nose, and mouth. Waves of steam rose from him as he fell to the ground. He rolled and twitched and gurgled in a most unbecoming manner. Then, he changed.

His nose elongated into a hard bill and his arms sprouted into wings. His nimble ninja feet transformed into webbed feet with talons. But it did not save him.

“I’m mellllttiiinnnnnggg!” he cried. And then, he neither breathed nor quacked no more.

“Yeah,” said Sleepy, sheathing his light-saber, “that’ll teach him to mess with me.”

~~~~~~~~~

~ The Dead ~

Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet ~ Villager ~ Pecked to death on Night 1
Nilpaurion Felagund the Elven Pigeon-Summoning Ninja ~ Wereduck ~ Waxed on, waxed off on Day 1

~ The Living ~

Anguirel the Baritone Bird Catcher
Mithalwen the Elven Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker
Saucepan Man the Orcish Scarecrow
Mormegil the Elven Idleman
Valier the Dwarven Millet Spray Picker
Nogrod the Dwarven Personal Fitness Instructor
Kath the Rainbow Catcher
Cailín the Bird-portraitist
Roa Aoife the Batwoman
Glirdan the Entish Tree Herder
Lote22 the Elven Igloo Maker
Lalaith the Halfling Chubb Fuddler
JennyHallu the Halfling Mountaintop Guru
Elu Ancalime the Didgeridoo Dwarf
Sleepy Ranger the Exiled Jedi Master
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Spider Loving Orcish Astronaut

[Diamond18]

The next morning the villagers arose and gathered in the town square to do a head count. They also joined hands and sang Kum-Bah-Ya, but that’s of little consequence. What is of consequence is that everyone was present and accounted for, and so there was much rejoicing, dancing, and drinking of strong wines.

However, after the euphoria passed, they decided that the remaining Ducks must still be eradicated, and so talk of execution began once more.

~~~~~~~~~

~ The Dead ~

Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet ~ Villager ~ Pecked to death on Night 1
Nilpaurion Felagund the Elven Pigeon-Summoning Ninja ~ Wereduck ~ Waxed on, waxed off on Day 1

~ The Living ~

Anguirel the Baritone Bird Catcher
Mithalwen the Elven Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker
Saucepan Man the Orcish Scarecrow
Mormegil the Elven Idleman
Valier the Dwarven Millet Spray Picker
Nogrod the Dwarven Personal Fitness Instructor
Kath the Rainbow Catcher
Cailín the Bird-portraitist
Roa Aoife the Batwoman
Glirdan the Entish Tree Herder
Lote22 the Elven Igloo Maker
Lalaith the Halfling Chubb Fuddler
JennyHallu the Halfling Mountaintop Guru
Elu Ancalime the Didgeridoo Dwarf
Sleepy Ranger the Exiled Jedi Master
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Spider Loving Orcish Astronaut

[mormegil]

Well done dear Nightingale, I believe this to be a very good start indeed. Now Nilp's death was a bit of a surprise as he generally isn't lynched the first day and an even greater surprise was to find out his guilt. Now granted I thought there was a chance but I wasn't certain. What I'd like to do is gather together the collection of quotes as to what everybody said, or didn't say, about Nilp yesterday. He obviously left no traces :rolleyes: . It will be in chronological order.

Ah I see Nilp has arrived! :rolleyes:


I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

I disagree, as a matter of fact. Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence. I think Nilp probably has too much respect for his customs to perjure them...

3. I find Nilp's self-vote annoying. Does he actually become more helpful if he survives Day 1? If so, leave him. If not, get rid of him. (This goes back to point 2.)

Mith simply mentions his self vote in passing but doesn't comment on it in post #58

Nilp has made only a self-vote.

OK I am disregarding for now anyone who hasn't posted a lot or at all eg Nilp, Lote, Elu, Sleepy, Jenny, Glirdan.

I mentioned my suspicions of Nilp and his self-vote earler, and they hold.

Now Nilp is generally unhelpful on Day 1 and if his desire is to die I may encourage it though he may not be a duck I think it's possible. How are we to know if he continually votes for himself, and as was pointed out, would do so this time to avoid suspicious.

I agree on this point. How, oh how, will we ever know when he is a bad guy? It makes me leary. I am so unsure who to vote for yet, but the day is still young (for me anyways) So I will wait till way later before I commit to a vote.

I am veering towards Nilp - as tradition or no, I don't approve of suicide and find it singularly unhelpful under the current circumstances. It is also a good mask to hide behind.

I'm sorry I'm so late. This is the first chance I've gotten to come on. I've read through parts of what has happened and only one thing really popped out at me. Nilp's vote for himself. I think that's really weird.

So since this is sadly the only chance I'm going to get to come on tonight I'm going to vote now.

++Nilpaurion Felagund

This is the second vote for Nilp


Nilpaurion - he is so annoying. Truly now.


Now the question is who? Nilp makes good cannon fodder but is it an easy way out? But then again he could be guilty. Nogrod, his death would at least slow down the speed of this discussion but he may also be guilty. I'm really fairly clueless right now so as to spread things out a bit.

I subsequently voted for Nogrod.

I've been pondering on the Nilp question and I think I'll give him another chance. After all, if he did break the tradition, that would look suspicious, too...

She votes for Glirdan in this same post.

At the moment, my other main suspects are Nilp, for reasons stated earlier (although I am inclined to give him a chance and see how he acts tomorrow),

Nilp: Voted for himself...seems to be standard operating procedure. Withholding judgment (or any sort of opinion, really) until tomorrow.

Busy day...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally... I can finally go to sleep now but first I believe I must leave a vote. I'm afraid my absence today hasn't been to the liking of people but you must understand I was terribly busy and had much to do. Anyway, my random vote policy and more or less everything I've said is staple for all my games and its always brought suspicion on me, I don't find any reason to change at the moment.

In views of self-preservation-

++Nilpaurion Felagund

I like to give the quiet people the benefit of the doubt on Day 1. Sometimes people just need to get into the swing of things. And who knows? Maybe if we let Nilp live, he'll be useful. If he pulls the same stunt tomorrow, I'll probably vote for him, and advocate his banishment from Werewolf. (People like that just take up space and make the game less fun. And if he is a Duck, I find it terribly unsporting and he should be ashamed of himself.) Also, this random vote thing has been Sleepy's deal for the past few games, therianthrope or not. Actually, in the games where he was the enemy he attempted helpfulness on Day 1. So if anything, I think this lowers him on the suspect list.

9 people have voted, so that leaves 8 votes. Concievably, the lynch could go either way. I really don't want Nilp or Sleepy to die, since I'm curious as to what they'll do on Day 2. Especially Nilp. I know Sleepy will get better, and he has a legitimate excuse.

Sleepy is just someone I'd rather lose than Nilp, who seems to prove very useful after day 1. Sleepy, if your regular way of playing regularly gets you lynched early and innocent, to me that's a reason for change.

I find Sleepy's sudden vote for Nilp as odd. I know the whole 'self-preservation arguement' so don't bother. However notice how it came immediately after he became tied with Nilp. Obviously Nilp is a person that would be easy to get lynched today so it does seem highly suspect to me.

And I am not inclined to consider saving Nilp or Sleepy (and would not be even were I not suspicious of them myself). If they get lynched, it’s their own silly fault for random/suicidal voting.

++Sleepy. I don't think we can afford to get rid of Nilp day 1. The suicide thing is odd, but normal. I'd like to stay out of the whole Sleepy/Nilp thing, but not if I have to leave 2 hours before sundown. I'll see how things look tomorrow.

It's hard to make a case for anyone on the first day,but out of all the lynchee's so far I find Nilp to be the most......ok well it always bugs me that he is so suicidal,and I always wonder about his innocence the whole game until he dies. So to put my mind at ease I shall vote for..

++Nilpaurion Felagund

Currently this is all that has been said.

Those who didn't mention Nilp at all are:

Spawn
Elu
Glirdan

Those who said little or nothing of any substance on the matter are:

Mithalwen
Nogrod
Kath
Cailin

Those who appeared to defend him beyond saying it's traditional are:

Anguirel
JennyHallu

Out of this list I find Cailin's comment to be the most odd but the other three weren't far behind. And out of the defenders JennyHallu seemed to be trying in earnest to save Nilp, while Anguirel was more or less pointing out that, for Nilp, the self-vote is a virtual requirement. Jenny actually voted for the runner up at a critical point

In regards to the three who didn't say anything, all three didn't post much so it's more difficult to gauge why they didn't.

Due to the voting I'm willing to think Valier innocent currently.

Sorry this is so long but I hope that you find it helpful.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Well, that was the second time ever (I think) when I've missed voting. I had troubles with computer access, sorry. :o

Wow, great job, Nightingale! First Duck is down, two to go, and we're still all here.


YesterDays votes were:

Nilp -> Nilp
Ang -> Kath
Mith -> spawn
Lote -> Nilp
Morm -> Nogrod
Lalaith -> Glirdan
Cailín -> Sleepy
Kath -> Sleepy
Sleepy -> Nilp
Sauce -> Mithalwen
Roa -> Glirdan
Valier -> Nilp

Didn't vote: Elu, Glirdan, Nogrod, spawn.


Now, Nilp certainly didn't leave any clues (not even anagrams :p ), so I went back to analyse other Day 1's posts, and a few things caught my attention. First of them was Glirdan's notion of Valier's "slip", which I found odd, so I took a look at him.



- Glirdan

#1: Promises to find the ducks for Diamond and suggests that we watch Sauce and spawn.
- Typical 1st post, I think. Accusations based on occupations are nothing unheard of. Oh, and by the way, I am an Orc, but a spider-loving one. -

#2: Apologises for making a double post and says that he'll be gone for a while.
- This phenomenon of informing about every time when one can't be in the village square (i.e. online) is funny. I don't think any of us expects everyone to be around 24 hours a Day. This doesn't concern just Glirdan, of course. -

#86: Says that he'll be gone soon and thinks he'll be back for the voting.

Defends himself against Sauce's accusation: "How hasty you are in trying to stoke up the village’s prejudices against us Orckind, Glirdan", and says that he won't trust Sauce before he's been proven innocent. Adds that he could violently defeat Sauce-orc. Also, he defends himself against Ang's accusation: "Glirdan the Ent is being oddly hasty. How curious. Perhaps he's no true Ent but, in fact, a foul (fowl?) webbed predator! Yet he is, after all, a fairly young Ent."
- Well, Glirdan said that he'll leave from the Village square. I think it's a bit funny that he used now (almost) all the time for defending himself although to me it seems that no-one has really even accused him. As far as I can interpret Sauce and Anguirel's words, their suspicions didn't seem very strong or serious. -

Points out a possible slip of Valier's and says that he'll keep an eye on her.
- I had to read the quote a few times before I understood what the "slip" was. When you look at the context, that Valier didn't like Diamond's poetry, the theory seems quite far-fetched. Perhaps he's a Duck who needed to present some suspicions to one direction or another so that people couldn't say that he's not participating enough, and because he couldn't really accuse anyone for Duckery being one himself, he had to come up with something like that. Perhaps he's an innocent who's eager to help, but just hadn't much to say that moment. -

In any case, I took a look at Valier's posts, too, if there had been something since sometimes the culprits just can't resist being witty that way, so...



- Valier

#7: Doesn't like that fact that Diamond is dead. "I can't say I cared much for her poetry, but this is unacceptable! I never wanted her dead." ~Valier
- That's the thing that made Glirdan suspect her. I think it pretty much looks like a normal 1st post. -

#49: Is angry because people talk so much. Says that she'll go reading the posts and will be back soon.
- Another post where she just lets people know that she is around. -

#52: Mentions Nogrod, Sauce, Roa and Anguirel and says that the first three are playing in normal manner and Ang usually gets killed early.
- So, what does she mean by saying that Ang doesn't often have a very long life-span in games? That if he's not toast soon, he must be a Duck? -

Says that analysis at this point are useless for her. Says that we should look at the quiet villagers and not lynch the loud ones.
- I find it funny that this suggestion comes from someone who has made only four posts of which two were just notes that she's around. :p Still, it's not a completely bad idea. If there are two equally suspicious villagers, I rather let the one live who contributes more. -

#54: Replies to Ang that she didn't mean with her comment that she'd be the one to kill him.
- As I said above, I'd like to know what she meant. -

#77: Agrees with morm that we can't know if Nilp is guilty or not if he votes for himself every time.

#116: Lists the votes. Says that she's unsure whom to vote, but votes for Nilp so that she doesn't have to wonder if he's guilty or not.
- When he cast her vote, Nilp had 3 votes, Sleepy had 2, and there was quite a bunch who had one vote each. He put Nilp in lead with two votes 35 minutes before the deadline when there were four people left who hadn't vote (and who in the end actually failed to vote). Based on the voting, I don't think that Valier is a Duck. I can't believe that the Ducks would sacrifice one of their own on the first Day just like that - even though I've lately seen some unbelievable voting schemes. -


More later.

[Nogrod]

A beautiful morning indeed!

And sorry everyone. I totally overslept yesterday (almost missed my work). I believe, I'm voting early from now on, just to be sure that I get to vote...

If it is of any interest, I would probably have voted for Elu yeasterday. My top annoyances were Elu, Nilp, Glirdy and Sleepy - because of their non-informative, non-participatory playing style. I know both Sleepy and Glirdy can be useful later on and probably wouldn't have voted for them. That would leave Nilp and Elu. Nilp I have naver played with, but have heard of his style (and have no idea, whether it would get better during the game). Elu I have played once with, and he was almost the same the entire game through.

Anyhow, had I woken early enough to vote, it still wouldn't have made any difference, as Nilp was to die anyhow.

------
Thanks Morm for your analysis on Nilp!

I think it might be helpful. What I think should be looked at too, are those mildly suspecting Nilp. Defending him could be more genuine than making a slight suspicion into his direction, and then being kind of backed up. So not pressing for his lynch (unwise, I suppose), but giving the appearance of suspecting him.

EDIT: X-posted with Spawn

[Nogrod]

Points out a possible slip of Valier's and says that he'll keep an eye on her.
- I had to read the quote a few times before I understood what the "slip" was. When you look at the context, that Valier didn't like Diamond's poetry, the theory seems quite far-fetched.


= Valier
I don't like the looks of this at all! I can't say I cared much for her poetry,but this is unacceptable! I never wanted her dead.

I don't see Glirdy's pointing out of this weird at all - or based on a far-fetched theory. It's quite unsubstantial, as slips are, but could be seen as one revealing the position from which the player is looking at the game... I remember a wolf-Roa saying, that she has never been a wolf before... :D

[Anguirel]

You meaner beauties of the night,
That poorly satisfy our eyes
More by your number than your light;
You common people of the skies,
What are you when the sun shall rise?

You curious chanters of the wood,
That warble forth Dame Nature's lays,
Thinking your voices understood
By your weak accents; what's your praise
When Philomel her voice shall raise?

Or his voice, of course. Well done Nightingale!


- When he cast her vote, Nilp had 3 votes, Sleepy had 2, and there was quite a bunch who had one vote each. He put Nilp in lead with two votes 35 minutes before the deadline when there were four people left who hadn't vote (and who in the end actually failed to vote). Based on the voting, I don't think that Valier is a Duck. I can't believe that the Ducks would sacrifice one of their own on the first Day just like that - even though I've lately seen some unbelievable voting schemes. -
.

I, on the other hand, can believe that the Ducks would sacrifice one of their own like that. Particularly Valier. You see, my many-greats-uncle and Valier's many-greats aunt were wolves together a long time ago, and my dastardly uncle (would you believe it? I've had two dastardly uncles, it's very depressing) pulled exactly that trick on their fellow wolf. As a result, he was not suspected for an extremely long time.

I think Valier would be, in principle, quite capable of such a scheme and should not be considered a certain innocent.

However, she is not one of my major suspects. They remain fairly consistent...more on that anon...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I see my last post crossed with Morm. Nice summary, although I analysed Mith's posts and I don't know if her stance on Nilp's vote was of as little substance as in your opinion. However, it takes time to type, so I'll post that in a bit.

Another thing that seemed weird to me was Elu's behaviour. She seemed to be lurking around but said barely anything.


- Elu Ancalime

#56: Checks in. Says that she almost forgot our Village.

#108: Feels obliged to vote, but says that she'd rather not to because she doesn't have time to analyze and she's surprised that there's already reasonable discussions.
-- I would have been more surprised if there hadn't been any sensible talking going on. Analyzing is really time-consuming, yes, but with 108 replies in a thread, wouldn't it have been possible to vote based on a gut feeling then... Voting is a civic duty and privilege. A vote with any kind of a reason is better than none at all. Although I guess I should hush up since I failed to vote myself. --

#110: Thanks Valier and Roa for pointing out that she's visible.
-- 23 minutes after her previous post she comes to the thread to say this. In twenty minutes couldn't she form any kind of an opinion of the events of the Day? On Day 1 Elu posted thrice, but didn't comment the discussions or the actions of her fellow villagers in any way. I hope to hear more from her. --

edit: Cross-posted with everyone since my previous post.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Nogrod, I see your point, and Ang, I'm sorry to hear about your relatives. Of course, a bluff like that is possible. However, unlikely. By no means, Valier is not a proven innocent, but right now she isn't my top suspect either.

Now, the analysis of Mith, as I promised.


- Mithalwen

#19: Checks in. Says that she wouldn't automatically suspect those who raise issues and options because it's better to do that than lament the dead. Typical Day 1 chatting. "We have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well" ~Mith
-- That's the quote Sauce picked in his post #22 by saying that 'in league' sounds sinister although a Duck would probably choose their words more carefully. I think Mith's post looked very normal 1st post. --

#20: Statistics. Lists those who haven't spoken yet, but doesn't hold much significance to the list due to timezones etc. Hopes to be more helpful later.
-- It has been only 9 hours since the sun rose and she's already making a list of people who haven't showed up, and then she says that the list doesn't mean anything. I don't see much point in this. To me it looks like something a Duck could do: they have to post something, but if they can't come up with anything reasonable to say, they have to make their presence and input clear by posting something seemingly helpful chattering... Also, what are we to see from this: "There are 7 non-ordos. So at least 2 must have posted already, statistically 4 is more likely... again that doesn't get us much further." ~Mith. --

#50: Defends herself because Roa put Mith on her suspect list saying that "she's not being her usually thoughtful self". "Give me a chance girl!!!!I did all I could in the time available. Now at least I have something to look at. And I refer you to this post ." ~Mith
-- There were the exclamation marks that I commented in my post #55. More about that later. --

#58: Wonders why Cailín said so early that she won't vote for Ang or spawn. Says it might be "a hint at giftedness or a duck-trick or a bluff or nothing."
-- Cailín explained that in her post #41. I don't know what made her to say that, but it's true that Ang and I have died early for a few times now. --

Says that Ang being the first one to start talking seriously speaks in his favour, but then again, she's fond of Mozart...
-- I didn't quite catch that. Anyway, the message of this seems to be that Anguirel might be a Duck and he might not. --

Says that there has been a lot of people stating the obvious including herself. Says that Nilp's vote is honourable if it's his only chance to speak toDay, but she won't necessarily be so tolerant in the future. Says that Sauce isn't acting as normally.
-- Slightly defends Nilp (who's a proven Duck) and says that Sauce, who incidentally wasn't as ready to let Nilp away with his self-vote as Mith (#22), isn't being himself. Interesting. --

#61: Answers spawn's remark that the use of four !-marks seems a bit snappish if someone puts her on their suspect list saying that the suspicion itself wasn't why she replied to her like that, but the reasons that Roa used annoyed her because Roa seemed to be clutching at straws. She adds that based on that remark, spawn seems to be grasping at straws, too.
-- In that same post Mith said that she doesn't expect everyone to remember that she said in the admin thread that she wouldn't have much time. However, she gets annoyed when that happens...

I said: "Mith, four exclamation marks if someone puts you on their suspect list? A little snappish, are we?" Later (#72) Mith says that I found her suspicious. Now, I wonder why Mith thinks that I find her suspicious because that quote of mine is the only time I talked about her on Day 1. It certainly doesn't seem like an accusation to me, but she took it as one. What is the reason? Is it that she knows that there would be reasons to accuse her rightly for Duckery and therefore is so swift to react? The last time I saw Mith this snappy, she had fangs.--

#64: Says that she's tired and she'll go home if no-one's talking. Asks if anyone has anything to say before she votes.

#72: Disregards all the silent people ie. Nilp, Lote, Elu, Sleepy, Jenny and Glirdan. Says that Lalaith and Cailín are being sensible, and Valier, morm and Nogrod seem like themselves, too.
Says that Ang is not worrying her, but he might still be a Duck.
-- Already the second time when she says that Ang might be a Duck or not. As revealing as it is, I wonder if there's some specific reason to say so instead of putting him into the 'sensible' or 'acting as usual' category. --

Says that Sauce and spawn are creeping her out since both of them would have rather hunted the Ducks than talked about Owl strategies and both found her suspicious for insufficient reasons.
-- As I said earlier, I think it's odd that she thinks we both find her suspicious based on the remarks we did. Sauce said that Mith could be a Duck or not. I explained my comment above. Gives a rather nervous impression of her. --

Forgives Roa because she suspected Sauce as well.
-- That must be a good reason. I just don't get it, but never mind. --

#74: Votes for spawn based on her post #12. Says that if someone has read the rules and is able to comment the Goose issue, they should know that the Ducks can't PM during Day. Therefore she must be a Duck.
-- Maybe it's easy to know if you're a Duck yourself, Mithduckwen. The rules said that during Night the Ducks choose one to kill. There was no mention concerning their Daytime activities, so I wanted to know if they can plot under our noses in bright daylight, too (since that has been the case in some previous villages).

"And is that really the biggest problem? Surely when someone who has been acting like a duck, turns out not to be a duck when they die, we can probably assume that the goose is dead?"~Mith
-- That makes absolutely no sense at all. Logically, we lynch people who act duckishly. According to you, if we lynch two innocents, both of them are Geese. And yes, I'm more worried about not knowing how many enemies there are left than not knowing if the Owl is still among us.

Now you might say that I'm suspicious of Mith.


Elu I have played once with, and he was almost the same the entire game through. 1) Is Elu a he? 2) Oh, so it's characteristic for him...

[Nogrod]

Fine work, Spawn! I'm beginning to understand, why people want to see your analysis - and why some creatures would not like to see them...

= Spawn
1) Is Elu a he? 2) Oh, so it's characteristic for him...


1) At least I (and others?) called Elu him (not Elohim... :D ) in the game I was with him. Don't remember him correcting it.
2) Well, at least in the game I was with him, he was about the way he was yesterday. And he was a surviving wolf as well - so very nasty tactics...

[Cailín]

Well done, Nightingale! This is good news. :)

I was absolutely shocked when we found out Nilp was an evil quack-duck yesterDay - I had not expected him to be anything but an ordinary villager. I especially think this makes our resident newbie Lote22 look trustworthy, and possibly Valier and Sleepy to a lesser extent (though Sleepy Duck might have voted for his fellow to save himself either way and Valier is - as mentioned by Ang - quite capable of playing a clever game). However, for now they are off my list.

Mormegil, your Nilp analysis is most helpful and I think that for the moment it is the most solid evidence we have. I also agree that yesterday's proceedings don't make me look so good, but there are many of us who traditionally just ignore Nilp on Day 1 to avoid much frustration and puzzlement.

I have little time right now, so I cannot make any solid cases, but there was one person who stood out to me in regards to Nilp, when I reread Day one's conversation. That person was Roa_Aoife. She expressed some annoyance with Nilp in a few posts and this quote I found especially noteworthy:

And if he is a Duck, I find it terribly unsporting and he should be ashamed of himself

Maybe I am reading more into it than I should.

On a final note, I am most suspicious of those who mentioned Nilp barely or not at all, even though I am one of them myself.

[Cailín]

Adding to my previous post before I leave: wonderful analysis, Spawn. Especially your summary of Mith's posts got me thinking - I shall look at her posts myself when I am back fom class.

[Mithalwen]

I am here. On schedule. No doubt this is suspicious.

There is a difference between irritable and jumpy. Anyone who knows me , knows I am irritable. Some people I find particularly irritating. People for example who are puerile enough to think that counting punctuation marks is evidence whereas statistics are not. BTW Kath I am an accountant in real life - numbers are what I do. Even when I was more happily employed as a literature studentI would do a prosodic analysis of a poem to get my brain in gear before I tackled the substance. It is a habit, helpful if only to me.

Since English is one of the few things I feel I am good at, I also find it irritable when holes are picked in it. When by what I now regard to be inevitably imminent death, I am proved innocent, please remember how much time was wasted by such trivia and act accordingly. These have not been serious attempts to find the ducks. The duck was lynched helped by the blissful and refreshing innocence of Lote who is surely innocent. Sometimes I think too many of us have played too much.

While we are on the subject of English, I think Diamond's instructions were admirably clear. I still think it was a reasonable basis for a first day vote.

Roa I am finding irritating for her hypocrisy. In post 25 she says " I have moved Nogrod and SaucepanMan to the top of my list along with Mith". Then she comes back and says "I never said it was a high suspicion. I was just throwing things out, trying to get a bite. You bit quite well, I might add. I understand your current issues, so I'll let it go. Also, having worked with in wolfish behavior, I doubt you would be this jumpy if you really were a Duck. I'll let you slide today, but your look at Spawn seemed to be grasping at straws."

This is interesting on several levels. Firstly, surely top three of 16 is high in anyone's language. Especially on such slender reasoning. I really think I had been as helpful as I could be in a lunch time with not much more than the routine grief and characterisation posts to go on. 4 exclamation marks was genuine astonishment.

Then she parrots my use of clutching at straws and I think Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant's use of jumpy.

Since I know she is completely wrong, she is my top suspect now.

The Saucepan Man wasnts to know why I changed my mind about him. Well I thought laterally and decided "to hang fire". Others might want to do the same. Having read through again yesterday I have decided maybe he is "not so green as cabbage looking", as my mother would have said. Now that really is a bit of English that you might find needs explaining. I am going to have to go back to work v. soon. Try and open your minds - unless you are bird brained !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Might as well give someone something to do ;) Beat that Orc boy :cool:

[Lalaith]

Yes, well done, Sir or Madame Nightingale. Good save.
So Nilp turned out to be guilty after all. He left so little trace, I wonder what can be learnt from those who voted for him.
Valier, Sleepy and Lote: I put them together because they all voted for Nilp the Duck. Of the three, I am definitely of the opinion that Lote is innocent. As for Valier, I’m interested in this betraying Duck theory - it had already occurred to me and now we're told there was a precendent. Sleepy too, voting in “self-preservation”…hmm. But I think it would be rather odd if both Ducks voted for their fellow.

As for the rest of the villagers, as Spawn is doing close textual analysis, I’ll stick to general impressions.
Mithalwen: yes, she’s being defensive, but that can be her way. Still, somewhat suspicious. Oh and pease fix those exclamations Mith, they've played havoc with the board!
Spawn: She seems helpful as ever, but yet…I’m just not feeling as comfortable with her as I often do. There's a certain, uncharacteristic lack of incisiveness...
SaucepanMan: he’s just making too much damn sense. I’m always scared of Saucie on principle, I’ve seen what he’s capable of.
Cailin: I find myself in agreement with her about a lot of things, so I am currently inclined to trust her.
Anguirel: He has been known to get a bit wacky, but seems quite to be playing it quite straight this time. Seems helpful.
Jenny: again, seems helpful. The defence of Nilp was perhaps a little OTT, I agree with Spawn there.
Mormegil: not as bloodthirsty as he sometimes is, and that Nilp analysis was very helpful. There is still a whiff of goosishness about him though, lingering from Day One.
Kath: that somewhat pointless rowing with Nogrod on Day One was rather distracting and therefore suspicious. But as she wasn’t well at the time, I’ll let it pass, she’s otherwise been helpful.
Nogrod, Roa: all that bickering on Day one was very distracting, and makes me suspicious. Both villagers have a reputation for being loudmouths, of course. I am I think more suspicious of Roa. She is my chief suspect at the moment.
Elu, Glirdan: both have been unhelpful so far. As I said yesterday, Glirdan’s accusations seem too spurious and therefore suspicious. I did think Elu was being rather too careless for a duck, but now Nogrod says he’s pulled that trick before, so I don’t know what to think.

[mormegil]

I realize that if she turns out to be guilty this puts me in a bad light but I have to say something.

There is a difference between irritable and jumpy. Anyone who knows me , knows I am irritable.

Feeling like one who knows Mith as well or better than anybody here I would agree with her on this point, ergo I don't find her behavior extremely odd, for her. Now if I were to see SpM behave this way red flags would be flying high, however from Mith it seems normal. She has a slight tendency to take things a bit too personal, this includes WW accusations and as she explained she does take pride in her english so I see nothing wrong with her snappiness. I really don't understand why we focused on 4 exclamation points.

Now there are other things that make Mith look moderately guilty but I don't hold with punctuations being a key indicator.

[Anguirel]

Oh dear. This day seems to be on the brink of sliding into Mith/Spawn duel to an even more serious extent than yesterday's Roa/Nogrod duel. That was a conflict of issues, but this is a tad more ad feminem-could be bitter.

Mith, do you have strong suspicions of anyone besides Spawn? It must be said that she's currently beating you on breadth of coverage.

I do not wish morm to escape scrutiny by virtue of his admittedly diligent surveyance of all our opinions on Nilp. Often werecreatures make sure they are the first to reach the evidence so that those too idle to view it directly will see it through were-tinted spectacles.

It is true to say that it's fascinating how many independent quarters Mith has drawn suspicion from. Saucie and Roa both felt her lightweight (though admittedly before waiting long to judge her-besides I trust neither of them). Kath felt her statistical approach an uncharacteristic angle, and even with Mith's accountancy in the picture I must admit that was in my mind too. Now dancing spawn has singled her out above other targets.

Mith's performance yesterday was hardly illuminating, but Lady Spawnowen's was still less so; as she pointed out herself, she failed to vote. However, she has produced a forceful case today that should be considered, and that struck many a reluctant chord in my brain.

Above either Spawn or Mith today in my mind are Roa and morm, both of whom I have accused countless times. Yesterday, bar post #46, I called morm a Goose. I now say Boo to that (vide Mith's signature) and declare him a full-feathered duck.

He fudged on Nilp yesterday, but did not include himself on the list of negligible Nilp-watchers, or any list at all. As it was not a suspicion ladder per se this is a rather evasive move.

He's also been, let's face it, pretty unhelpful with a slightly reasoned vote, until this morning, when the aid he brought was...well, similar in quality to Mith's statistics yesterday morning. A useful but scarcely enlightening task performed, that's all.

EDIT: The alleged signature of Mith's regarding Booing I referenced is either no more or belonged to someone else all the time. Sorry for confusion caused...

[Roa_Aoife]

Not much time- I have a final in an hour. Several things I'd like to say:

Yay, Nightingale! Nice job. Hopefully you can live long enough to tell us who was innocent.

About Nilp- I'm glad we caught a Duck, and all, but where was the fun in that? There was no chase, no excitement, nothing! It was little more than a fluke! I got into this game for the fun of it, and he just sucked it all out. Honestly, if that's the way you're going to play, then don't play. I DESPISE this style, and I think that anyone who uses it should just get out of the game (ie, Nilp, Elu, Gil-galad, etc). Time constraints are one thing, but this is just rediculous. If you have so little time, don't sign up. It isn't fair, it isn't fun, and it isn't "funny." I wasn't joking when I said I advocate banning you from the game. If you aren't going to play, then you shouldn't be allowed to waste space in the thread. [/rant]

Mith, you're mis-using the word "hypocritical." The word you're looking for is "contradictory," which my posts were not. My suspicion of you three was slightly above everyone else. How could it be more, at that stage of the day? Naturally, with you're continued over-reaction, I'm putting you a bit higher. Also, I did intentionally use your phrase, "grasping at straws," as a means of show your own hypocracy. Why so quick to accuse those who have only a mild suspicion of you? Paranoid that one might be the Owl and has dreamed of you? And what's with all the mellowdrama? You don't expect to survive the day? Why not? You were, at best, only mildly suspcious to the majority.

Right now I am continuing my suspicion of Glirdan, but I want to see more of him today. I know he's capable of much more than what he's shown us. I'd also like him to explain he rediculous "answers" to the suspicions layed against him.

Edit: Cross posted with Morm and Ang

[Anguirel]

About Nilp- I'm glad we caught a Duck, and all, but where was the fun in that? There was no chase, no excitement, nothing! It was little more than a fluke! I got into this game for the fun of it, and he just sucked it all out. Honestly, if that's the way you're going to play, then don't play. I DESPISE this style, and I think that anyone who uses it should just get out of the game (ie, Nilp, Elu, Gil-galad, etc). Time constraints are one thing, but this is just rediculous. If you have so little time, don't sign up. It isn't fair, it isn't fun, and it isn't "funny." I wasn't joking when I said I advocate banning you from the game. If you aren't going to play, then you shouldn't be allowed to waste space in the thread. [/rant]

This is another thing, alas, that you and Nogrod have in common-you are both swift to judge other people's styles. You've never played with Nilp before. You experienced one day in which he was apparently fairly occupied. Pause before you launch into Demosthenes mode, old girl. People have their different ways of doing things, people have lives, etc etc. Nilp is one of the wittier Downers I know, dead duck or not, and I stand by that. There is also a major difference between Nilp and Gil or Wayne. Not that they should be banned either. Banning is always a restriction. When you're restricting things in something meant to be entertaining, you can slip through the net into the ocean of pettiness.

Mith, you're mis-using the word "hypocritical." The word you're looking for is "contradictory," which my posts were not. My suspicion of you three was slightly above everyone else. How could it be more, at that stage of the day? Naturally, with you're continued over-reaction, I'm putting you a bit higher. Also, I did intentionally use your phrase, "grasping at straws," as a means of show your own hypocracy.

And you're misusing the word "hypocrisy". It's not spelt "hypocracy", italicised or not. Now I now how Kath feels in her Grammar-Termagant role...

If "hypocracy" existed, it would be something, I suppose, to do with the state of transcending ruling.

((The one I really love is hippocracy-rule by horses. Our school's supposedly most intellectual magazine-a rival of the one I help edit-once ran a vast headline of "American Hippocracy In Iraq". I saw visions of the US army forcing the helpless Iraqi citizenry to elect horses as consuls in the manner of Caligula...))

Where you are sensible is suggesting we glance as Glirdan-the struggles of the colossi shouldn't let the shrimps shelter...

[Roa_Aoife]

Nilp is one of the wittier Downers I know, dead duck or not, and I stand by that.

I am well aware of Nilp's intelligence, which is what makes this so much more frustrating. I know he is able to do much more than what he's done, time contraints or no. And if this is such a regular occurance that most just roll their eyes over it, then it really isn't about time contraints. The game isn't fun when people don't play. He cheated us out of a decent game for his own amusement and inside joke. (And no, I'm not saying he actually cheated at the game.) That's shameful. Maybe banning is taking it too far, but that's not a playing style, it's a cop-out. Thank you from correcting my spelling, though. That's one of the words that always trips me up.

Alright, now I really have to go before my History professor fails me for not showing up for the final.

[Sleepy Ranger]

I've got a lot of catching up to do. I just skimmed through the thread and some things here and there have caught my attention. Give me some time to read through and then I'll leave my thoughts.

[Kath]

Now I now how Kath feels in her Grammar-Termagant role...
Kath can't help it :)

Now, all this arguing is not in any way beneficial to us in our search for the remaining Ducks. We had a bit of luck last Night, lets not let it go to waste toDay.

Roa - voting for himself is Nilp's way of playing and whether you like it or not he's been doing it for a very long time now and will most likely continue to. He does this first Day every game because he has a similar opinion to Form over Day 1's - namely that they are useless. I disagree with this, as apparently do you, but that's how he feels and that is unlikely to change. In the end it actually helped us that we had some newbies unused to this, and he got caught out. However, stressing about it now is pointless and I am a little worried that you seem to be so caught up with that, as it does take attention away from finding the Ducks. Please can we consider this argument ended, or take it up again after the game has finished, so we can get back to the important matters.

Thanks go to morm for his going back and finding quotes by and about Nilp, that's a long and nasty job! Having looked at it, it was Sleepy that seemed the most odd.

Anyway, my random vote policy and more or less everything I've said is staple for all my games and its always brought suspicion on me, I don't find any reason to change at the moment.
And then, in the very next line, he says that his vote is in the interest of self-preservation. Yes, that's a pretty good reason for a vote, but he contradicts himself in the space of two sentences.

Also from that, Roa is worrying me. She seems overly aggressive and inclined to take offence at everything. When talking of Nilp she says he should be killed off for his unhelpful playing style (his self-voting habit), but gives Sleepy's equally unhelpful style (random voting) the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if this is an attempt to distance herself from a fellow Duck who she felt was behaving in a way unfitting to the role.

Mith is still being extremely defensive though this is actually quite normal for her. Any accusation against her is always strongly rebutted. She did reply to my questioning her about her use of statistics and fairly so, though I still believe her use of them to be odd.

Ang - would you please explain why you believe morm to be the Goose. You may have done so yesterDay (and I believe you did) but I'm still not at 100% and would appreciate a quick recap.

[Anguirel]

Alright. But actually I've now progressed to thinking morm an outright duck.

Firstly, in morm's initial post, he said something about wanting to hire protection. This seems not only selfish, but distinctly odd, seeing as protection does exist in this game, though it's certainly not for hire...

Then there came the moment when morm introduced his "What a Goose could do" plan, effectively saying we would have to be careful and treat any Owl revelations as possible impostures. To that I replied-

Incidentally, morm's back on form, but I still suspect him. He has made a possibility that the Goose will employ this ruse into a certainty. He has ensured that the Owl will not be believed till they deliver results. Hmm.

Saucie later arrived and knocked some very obvious holes that I'd missed in morm's argument-cementing in my mind the possibility that morm was deliberately trying to discredit the Owl.

For the reasons I stated, I upgraded my suspicion of morm

He fudged on Nilp yesterday, but did not include himself on the list of negligible Nilp-watchers, or any list at all. As it was not a suspicion ladder per se this is a rather evasive move. He's also been, let's face it, pretty unhelpful with a slightly reasoned vote, until this morning, when the aid he brought was...well, similar in quality to Mith's statistics yesterday morning. A useful but scarcely enlightening task performed, that's all.

[The Saucepan Man]

Ha! Like I said, Nilp has only himself to blame. :D

Apologies to one and all for my late arrival. As I explained here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=462993&postcount=1134) in the admin thread, crow scaring can be a full-time occupation. Today, I was required to attend our Annual Scarecrow Conference and so was not able to join the village moot until now.

Although it’s rather late in the Day, I will nevertheless offer up my traditional record of the preceeding Day’s votes. Spawn provided a list earlier, but I like to look at the state of the voting at the time that each vote was cast.

1. Nilp for Nilp (Nilp-1)
2. Ang for Kath (Nilp-1, Kath-1)
3. Mith for spawn (Nilp-1, Kath-1, spawn-1)
4. Lote for Nilp (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1)
5. Morm for Nogrod (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1)
6. Lalaith for Glirdan (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1)
7. Cailín for Sleepy (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-1)
8. Kath for Sleepy (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2)
9. Sleepy for Nilp (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2)
10. SpM for Mith (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)
11. Roa for Glirdan (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)
12. Valier for Nilp (Nilp-4, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)

Did not vote: Elu, Glirdan, Nogrod, spawn.

All but Elu have explained their failure to vote yesterday.

Like Ang and others, I do not discount the possibility of a Duck-on-Duck vote yesterday. I doubt that Lote’s vote would fall into this category and so think her most likely innocent. But a Duckish Valier could have sacrificed a fellow Duck to gain credibility. I find it unlikely that a Duck would do this on Day 1, but it’s still a possibility.

Sleepy’s vote for Nilp does not tell us much. Whether innocent or a Duck, he would most likely have voted for Nilp at that stage to save himself.

Difficult to tell much from the other votes. Kath’s vote for Sleepy and Roa’s vote for Glirdan could be seen as Duckish attempts to save Nilp, but they don’t mean much on their own.

I have only had a chance to briefly review today’s proceedings so far and will come back with further thoughts when I have had an opportunity to consider further. For now, I wanted to ask what I think is a pretty important question.

Can the Nightingale (well done, by the way :)) protect the same person two or more nights running?

As far as I can see, there’s nothing about this in the game rules. My question, by the way, is directed primarily to the Diamoddess. I ask it here because, depending on the answer, there may be issues which will merit serious consideration.

[Cailín]

All right people. Just breathe.

I am finding this whole Nilp - is - an - evil - unsupporting - quacking - player a bit distracting. He died and paid for his crimes, his folly, his wings and his suicidal tendencies. So why bother? If you want revenge, flood his PM box.

Through all this arguing it is hard for a person like me to remain analytical and sensible. Mithalwen: I do not know you well at all, of course, so I cannot say whether your irritation is really in character. Of course, I am not going to suspect you based on punctuation or anything - rather your half-hearted case against Spawn and the Nilp issue.

I am far from convinced that Mith is guilty, though. Far from. Mostly because she reminds me of what I must force myself not to do when I am under fire, regardless of my role in the village.

I never trust Dancing Spawn in any game -not sure why, possibly because she never trusts me ;) - but as long as I do not have any clear evidence against her, I would not vote for her either. I find nothing really different or odd about it. Surely it is natural to want to analyse those who vote against you - if indeed you know yourself to be innocent?

As for Roa, I do not understand why she finds Nilp's behaviour so upsetting unless Nilp was one of her fellow ducks. But would she then be so forward in her rants? Possibly. Loudmouths generally get away with yelling.

Anguirel - I find nothing odd about Mormegil's first post, though I can see why his Goose plan would incriminate him.

I am waiting to hear more from certain people: Glirdan, Sleepy, Elu and some other quiet ones. Also, where is our resident Sauce-Orc? It is still early, of course.

To end in a gut-feeling way that is not helpful to anyone in particular: Anguirel might be a Goose, no? Somehow, I get that impression.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Sleepy is just someone I'd rather lose than Nilp, who seems to prove very useful after day 1. Sleepy, if your regular way of playing regularly gets you lynched early and innocent, to me that's a reason for change.

If people can adjust themselves to Nilpaurion's playing style, I fail to see why they can't to mine.

I find Sleepy's sudden vote for Nilp as odd. I know the whole 'self-preservation arguement' so don't bother. However notice how it came immediately after he became tied with Nilp. Obviously Nilp is a person that would be easy to get lynched today so it does seem highly suspect to me.

From what I saw, several people were leaving Nilpaurion alone stating that it was just his playing style and that he'd be helpful the next day. I've no wishes to die, I did what I had to and note that I survived by a single vote.

And then, in the very next line, he says that his vote is in the interest of self-preservation. Yes, that's a pretty good reason for a vote, but he contradicts himself in the space of two sentences.

Yes, just because I said I'd most probably vote random means I have to vote random no matter what? What if the seer came out with the name of a duck? Yes, thats a perfectly good reason to vote random... I saw self-preservation as a perfectly sane reason to go against my policy! Whoop-dee-doo, if that makes me a duck in public opinion... I shall withold any further comments, but here it seems you're just trying to bring up a moot point against me.

but gives Sleepy's equally unhelpful style (random voting) the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if this is an attempt to distance herself from a fellow Duck who she felt was behaving in a way unfitting to the role.

People seem to have mis-understood me entirely, its always been most probably a random vote. I'm always lazy on Day 1, I don't like jumping into arguements right off the bat, I'd much rather sink into the game at my own pace. In my opinion people are being to asking of everything or just don't like me for some reason. :(

Heres my opinions on the people-

Innocent

Anguirel - I'm inclined to believe he is innocent.
Lote22 - She seems innocent enough.
Valier - Would a duck really have voted for Nilp? Had she voted for me instead I'm certain nobody would have seen anything wrong in that.
Nogrod - Nogrod is well, Nogrod. I just can't get myself to suspect him at the moment.

Not Sure

Saucepan Man - I don't really know what to make of Saucey.
Mormegil - Though I'm inclined to believe hes innocent as someone said, too easy to mis-trust.
Cailín - Don't know what to make of her, she seems sensible enough.
Roa_Aoife - Again, inclined to believe shes innocent but she can be a tricky lady.
Glirdan - Waiting to see more from him.
Elu Ancalime - See Glirdan.
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant - She could be dangerous and I'm not really sure what to do with her now.
Lalaith - Don't see much wrong with her.
Kath - I'm not sure about her, but she seems to be a trifle bit more suspicious than anyone else on this list.

Ducks

Mithalwen - Shes been overly defensive and the use of all those exclamation marks just annoys me.
JennyHallu - She would make a very dangerous duck. Also, seems not to mind Nilpaurion because its his playing style yet says I should change mine.

[The Saucepan Man]

I need to correct the list that I posted earlier. I was working off spawn's list, which omitted JennyHallu's vote.

1. Nilp for Nilp (Nilp-1)
2. Ang for Kath (Nilp-1, Kath-1)
3. Mith for spawn (Nilp-1, Kath-1, spawn-1)
4. Lote for Nilp (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1)
5. Morm for Nogrod (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1)
6. Lalaith for Glirdan (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1)
7. Cailín for Sleepy (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-1)
8. Kath for Sleepy (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2)
9. Sleepy for Nilp (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2)
10. SpM for Mith (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)
11. Jenny for Sleepy (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-3, Mith-1)
12. Roa for Glirdan (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-3, Mith-1)
13. Valier for Nilp (Nilp-4, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-3, Mith-1)

Did not vote: Elu, Glirdan, Nogrod, spawn.

Jenny's vote too might be regarded as an attempt to save Nilp, assuming that Sleepy is innocent. Interesting that spawn omitted it from her earlier list (although I doubt a Duck would draw attention both to herself and the person she omitted like that).

[Nogrod]

Those who didn't mention Nilp at all are:
Spawn
Elu
Glirdan
Those who said little or nothing of any substance on the matter are:
Mithalwen
Nogrod
Kath
Cailin
Those who appeared to defend him beyond saying it's traditional are:
Anguirel
JennyHallu
Out of this list I find Cailin's comment to be the most odd but the other three weren't far behind. And out of the defenders JennyHallu seemed to be trying in earnest to save Nilp, while Anguirel was more or less pointing out that, for Nilp, the self-vote is a virtual requirement. Jenny actually voted for the runner up at a critical point
In regards to the three who didn't say anything, all three didn't post much so it's more difficult to gauge why they didn't.
Due to the voting I'm willing to think Valier innocent currently.


There are a few funny things in here.

First of all. So skillful player as he seemingly is (I've only played once with him before this), from his analysis, he seems to totally forget those who have had something against Nilp! Kind of wanting us to focus on these others? There might be some Nilp-voters in yesterday's tally - case Valier comes to mind. But even more, I am worried about those, who just suspected Nilp duckishly-lightly enough to secure their backs (not voting, not straightly accusing, but still "suspecting" or "keeping an eye"...)

Secondly. His point about the four people he (rigthly) called "saying little or nothing of any substance", that:
Out of this list I find Cailin's comment to be the most odd but the other three weren't far behind.

If you really look at the comments - so nicely given to us by Morm (#121), you may judge by yourselves. There seems to be nothing odd in them - at least I can't see them as odd, and would very much like to hear Morms points concerning their oddity.

And if Ang is right with the suspicion about Morm, then I must say our Owl-talk was not in vain after all... :cool:

I'll try to do some re-reading next.

EDIT: X-posted with quite a few...

[Kath]

Now then, as I state in all games my Day 1 vote will be random unless the seer decides to reveal themself today or unless its a very convincing case against someone.
Sleepy, this was your explanation yesterDay. The Seer did not reveal and there was no case against anyone.

Then you said:
Anyway, my random vote policy and more or less everything I've said is staple for all my games and its always brought suspicion on me, I don't find any reason to change at the moment.
Followed by a vote for a different reason! It was this contradiction that made me look at you. Had you not bothered to repeat the bit about always voting randomly I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but after you so specifically mentioned it, not following that looks a little odd.

Ang - thanks for that recap. I'll think over it for a bit.

[The Saucepan Man]

To end in a gut-feeling way that is not helpful to anyone in particular: Anguirel might be a Goose, no? Somehow, I get that impression.Possibly. A Goose might be eager to accuse others of Goosiness so as better to conceal him/her-self. But I am beginning to wonder whether, absent any obviously Goose-like behaviour, there is much point in trying to spot the Goose. Once at least one innocent has died, we are unlikely to know for sure whether the Goose is still among us. Also, it is a common Cobleresque tactic to wait until later in the game, when they are more likely to be able to cause more havoc, and so try to merge in and simply appear as an ordinary innocent in the early stages.

Admittedly, suspicions of Goosiness may lead us to a find a Duck instead (and I can see some force in the arguments that have led Anguirel to reassess mormegil as a possible Duck). But perhaps we should just concentrate on looking for suspicious behaviour generally. Even if (on any particular Day) this doesn't lead us to find a Duck, we might (albeit unknowingly) kill the Goose instead.

[Diamond18]

Can the Nightingale (well done, by the way :)) protect the same person two or more nights running?

No. The Nightingale can protect the same person any number of times but not on consecutive nights. And also the Nightingale may not protect itself.

[Lalaith]

The Goose does not of course know any more than the rest of us who s/he is supposed to be helping, so I suppose at the moment the Goose would just concentrate on being generally difficult. At the moment I can think of a few candidates... :rolleyes:

But I agree, I would much rather worry about Ducks.

On the subject of which, I am most interested in Roa's rage...I've heard of flogging a dead horse, but kicking a dead duck... hmmm. Particularly as she seems more interested in the alleged shortcomings of the dead duck, than in finding live ones. Frustration, perhaps?

[Anguirel]

But accusing people of being a Goose insults their posting style and clarity and so is far more fun...as I think Cailin may just have discovered...

Of course Goose-inquisitions are pretty pointless in themselves, Saucie, but if en passant we find Goose-suspect behaviour why not out it? And as you say it could-I think has in morm's case-(don't gloat though Nogrod!) lead, have led to a ducking.

Nogrod, your exposition of the weakness in morm's researches was rather clearer than mine and exceedingly helpful-I am inclined to pass you as innocent for now.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Oh dear. This day seems to be on the brink of sliding into Mith/Spawn duel to an even more serious extent than yesterday's Roa/Nogrod duel.I'd rather have reasoned analyses from everyone than any kind of a duel (am I imagining, or is it going pretty heated between you and morm, too).

He's also been, let's face it, pretty unhelpful with a slightly reasoned vote, until this morning, when the aid he brought was...well, similar in quality to Mith's statistics yesterday morning. A useful but scarcely enlightening task performed, that's all.Your case against morm is interesting.

I went back to analyse him myself.


- mormegil

#6 Laments his own death in the future, Day 1 chatting.
- Seems typical 1st post for morm. -

#30 Says that killing Ducks isn't lofty enough for his brain. Doesn't like the Owl talk much, but talks about possible Goose scenarios. Clarifies the rules (ie. we don't see the deceaseds' roles if they were the Goose or a Gifted). Says that if he were the Goose, he'd step forward and say that he's the Owl.
Says that both Kath and Sauce should be lynched.
- This is mostly an insightful post with the example and all, but it looks like he'd be giving advice for the Goose on how to act... -

#51 Ang criticized morm's Goose post, so morm replies to it by saying: "All I did was point out something in advance to the owl so that he/she wouldn't fall for a ploy that may be employed by the goose." He also says that he understands why he looks suspicious.
- Well, that's a good answer. However, his previous post might still be considered suspicious and he understands it himself, splendid. -

#95 Agrees with Kath that if he were a Duck, he'd not kill the talkative people early, but wonders why he is speculating it. Says that he has some problems with net connection, so he has to vote. Wonders if killing Nilp would be an "easy way out", but says that he might be guilty. Says that killing Nogrod would slow down the speed of the discussions, but he might be guilty, too. Says that he's fairly clueless and votes for Nogrod.
- Another 'if I were a baddie' scenario. Hmm, are you? One could have quite a few accusations similar to Glirdan's observation about Valier's slip, but otherwise this seems quite normal behaviour for morm. -

#106 Finds Sleepy's vote for Nilp odd and it makes Sleepy suspicious. Says that Roa makes a good point about Nogrod that in last games "he's been toning down his agression. Strange, did he just decide to drop his (albeit relatively) subdued manner in the passion of his argument? Or is he just being a bold Duck?" ~Roa
Morm's opinion is that Nogrod is more likely to be a bold Duck.

#121 Says that Nilp's death and guilt were surprises although he had his suspicions. Collects quotes of Nilp by everyone and lists the votes for Nilp between them in chronological order. Finds Cailín's comment the oddest and mentiones that Ang and Jenny defended Nilp, and Jenny voted for someone else "at a critical point". Due to voting thinks that Valier is innocent.
- I just realised that I hadn't listed Jenny's vote for Sleepy to my list of the votes. She voted between Sauce and Roa.

Anyway, I wonder why morm didn't list Mith's words about Nilp; "For now I will take this [Nilp's self-vote] as an honourable route if it is the only participation possible. I don't know if he makes a habit of this but I shall not necessarily be always so lenient. Non-participation makes life so difficult for the true villagers and often plays into the hands of the "three"." ~Mith

Also, morm lists a lot of quotes, but doesn't really comment them. It looks helpful, but anyone could just do a list of quotes. The lack of personal thoughts about the gathered information seems duckish since morm is very well capable of doing analyses... -

#133 Says that he realises that if Mith turns out to be guilty it will look bad for him, but he defends Mith by saying that he didn't see anything unusual in Mith's snappishness. Says that he doesn't understand why we concentrate on four exclamation marks, but says that there are other things that make her look moderately guilty.
- Interesting that after I've explained my post about the ! marks and posted my theory about Mith which had little to do with exclamation marks, morm brings them to the discussion again. Also, this is the second time when he says that he understands why people find him suspicious. He defends Mith, then admits that she looks somewhat suspicious, then talks about punctuations again and how they aren't a good reason. If you read my case, you are aware that I don't suspect Mith because of them. -

Uh, I need a break now. I don't know what to think of this all, but I'll keep an eye on him, that's for sure.


ps. Roa, I don't think that criticizing dead villagers' playing styles is very relevant right now. It's Nilp's tradition to vote himself on Day 1, like it or not. If you've read recent WW games past the first Day, I don't think you have a reason to complain.

edit: Cross-posted with everyone since #145.

[Valier]

Wow way to go nightinggale!! I can't believe Nilp actually was a duck! I voted for him, because like I said I am never sure if this time he will be a baddie and my gut was right this time.

For all the people who think I am a cunning duck ie:Ang,Cailin etc... Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I assure you I am just a cunning villager..:rolleyes:

I understand Roa's thoughts on Nilp I too find this type of play annoying, I know Nilp is way smarter than he plays in ww games.

Well he's gone now, so lets not dwell on it. Lets keep our luck up and get another Duck.

I will read through the posts and see what I can come up with. I'll Be back in a bit, with hopefully something tangible.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Followed by a vote for a different reason! It was this contradiction that made me look at you. Had you not bothered to repeat the bit about always voting randomly I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but after you so specifically mentioned it, not following that looks a little odd.

I still fail to see your side of this matter. It was a special circumstance as the seer statement was supposed to eximplify, which in itself was meant as a sort of joke. The seer revealing themself on Day 1? Yeah right...

And how about I say my vote for Nilp was done at random because I pulled a name out of a hat and thats what I got, does that make you happy?

[Mithalwen]

I don't want to fight anyone. I am hypersensitive, I know - it is the reason I took a long break from WW. If you attack me, I will defend myself. I want to do my best to catch the remaining ducks. Lynching me will not help you do this. You can always kill me later but I am pretty sure the Ducks will save you the trouble so you might as well consider a few other options.

I am not a duck. You really will do better to look elsewhere. I can only prove this absolutely by dying but that really won't be in your favour. We( ie the village) are in a strong position here. Don't blow it by focussing on my personality flaws. They are many but dishonesty is not one of them. Wearing my heart on my sleeve is.

I cannot stay to the end. In fact I have about 2.5 hours. I have a lot of reading to do. I have wasted a lot of time defending myself which is quite exasperating.

[Anguirel]

I'd rather have reasoned analyses from everyone than any kind of a duel (am I imagining, or is it going pretty heated between you and morm, too).

A wee bit...though to give the chap his due he himself hasn't had time to respond to my more serious accusations yet, and I've been the aggressor throughout. Make of that what you will...

[Sleepy Ranger]

I don't want to fight anyone. I am hypersensitive, I know - it is the reason I took a long break from WW. If you attack me, I will defend myself. I want to do my best to catch the remaining ducks. Lynching me will not help you do this.

Which is why I suggest complete removal of direct attacks on people, whatever the reason but I believe this is a matter for elsewhere.

[Kath]

Which is why I suggest complete removal of direct attacks on people, whatever the reason but I believe this is a matter for elsewhere.
Excuse me? How else are we going to find out if they are guilty or not!

And how about I say my vote for Nilp was done at random because I pulled a name out of a hat and thats what I got, does that make you happy?
No, it wouldn't. But I won't argue anymore. We'll just have to agree to differ.

[Anguirel]

Excuse me? How else are we going to find out if they are guilty or not!

Quite, Kath. You're proving a breath of sanity this game-I wonder why on earth I voted for you yesterday evening...no hard feelings I hope...

[Sleepy Ranger]

Excuse me? How else are we going to find out if they are guilty or not!

As I said its a matter for elsewhere, I'll fill you in on all the details elsewhere even though that comment/question of yours strikes me as rude. Now back to finding the ducks.

[Anguirel]

As I said its a matter for elsewhere, I'll fill you in on all the details elsewhere even though that comment/question of yours strikes me as rude. Now back to finding the ducks.

It's not a matter for elsewhere. It's a question of strategy. We are not going to find ducks by shyly questioning each other about points of rules ettiquette and tickling each other with pads of cotton wool.

[Valier]

All this talk about fighting and defending oneself is getting annoying! If you are innocent and people are attacking you, defend yourself, but why get upset? You know your innocent, so you should care less what people say....I just think it's funny when people think I'm a wolf(duck) when I'm not. Then when I die I laugh at all who thought me bad. So noone get uptight, it's just a game remember!!!!;)

[Sleepy Ranger]

It's not a matter for elsewhere. It's a question of strategy. We are not going to find ducks by shyly questioning each other about points of rules ettiquette and tickling each other with pads of cotton wool.

It is quite a matter for elsewhere. I was making a post on how to go about accusing people in TiG (Jr.). Its been applied (quite succesfully) in a Model United Nations I was in. Did I say that we question each other shyly? Not that I re-call. Yes, go ahead and say that in the United Nations they don't catch evil werecreatures set on killing you but the matter is the same, debating and (to an extent) arguing. Direct attacks could offend a person, I know well enough I've been left with a bitter taste in my mouth due to certain things said in this (WW in general) game.

It is of no concern to this game, I will merely be making a suggestion (part request) and if people wish to follow it in this game then all the better. If you wish to criticize me for this, kindly wait till after I've posted in TiG (and Jr.) before you do.

[Mithalwen]

Ang - I did say quite clearly in my lunchtime post that I suspected Roa for what, out of some vestigal regard for the conventions of the downs I called hypocrisy.

What I meant was more on the lines of economy with the truth. Top three is high so to then say it isn't is just untrue.

I really want to get away from the Spawn stuff since I know my innocence will be shown posthumously. However I think it may be one of those unfortunate and destructive personality clashes. I don't see anything wrong with my goose logic. If we lynch someone strongly suspecting them to be a duck and they turned out to be "innocent" = and we know that term covers some distinctions, it is a stong possibility that they were the goose rather than an ordo or a gifted.

As for other suspects.... well I have to look at you and Morm becasue you know me best.....

Also I want to look beyond my normal circle of acquaintanceship. Lote's "emperor's new clothes" vote made me realise that we can get stuck on what we know of each other.

[Anguirel]

There, there, I'm sure your argument was very good, Sleepy-would you like biscuits with your camomile tea?

((Still, it could be a matter of academic approach. You're being taught to encourage co-operation, love of humanity, responsibility, and world peace. I am writing an Italian essay tonight entitled "Why I Hate England", "Perche Odio Inghilterra"...))

[The Saucepan Man]

Time for me to collect my thoughts on everyone, based on what has occurred to date.

Anguirel has seemed nothing but helpful and constructive so far. He has put forward some credible theories and generally talked good sense. That is exactly how I would expect him to behave, if a Duck, but I think it more likely at the moment that he is a helpful innocent.

Mithalwen was my main suspect and has done little to change my mind today. Her cases against me (initially) and spawn (whom she voted for) were entirely flimsy and she was jumpy and defensive in response to the merest of comments. Yes, she can be irritable. But experience tells me that she can be a very jumpy Wolf (and, therefore, Duck) too. She seems more measured in her responses today (perhaps having had a chance to reassess overnight and tone down her Duckish jumpiness), but is still complaining about being suspected for her use of exclamation marks. For my part, it was not her use of punctuation, but her reaction to being called on it, which raised my suspicions of her.

Mormegil seemed slightly off to me yesterday. He jumped in today with a seemingly helpful analysis of what was said yesterday concerning Nilp. But, as others have pointed out, it provides him with the opportunity to appear helpful while planting seeds of suspicion where he wants them to grow. I rather agree with Nogrod that those who expressed suspicion of Nilp but did not vote for him are more suspicious than those who said little about him (even though I myself fall into that category – as does mormegil, of course).

Valier – more likely innocent than not for her vote for Nilp. It has been said that she has a good instinct for spotting Ducks, so I’d like to hear more from her today.

Nogrod – despite my disagreement with him yesterday, he seemed genuine enough in his intentions. And thankfully, he is concentrating more on looking for Ducks today and I agree with much of what he has said. Probably innocent.

Kath has not really said enough for me to form much of an opinion of her (although I sympathise with her reasons for being quiet yesterday). Her second vote for Sleepy might be regarded as suspicious, but it’s not enough to go on. I am glad that she looks to be feeling up to participating more today, and what she has said so far looks to be constructive (although she seems more argfumentative than usual).

Cailín is talking good sense. For some reason (probably something to do with a past life ;)) I generally trust Cailín, and I have no reason not to do so at present.

Roa Aoife has made a name for herself for being aggressive and for her argument with Nogrod. Neither particularly suggest Duckishness to me, although I am aware that she is more than capable of carrying off such behaviour as a Duck. Not sure about her making such a fuss over Nilp’s behaviour. It would be strange for a Duck to berate her fellow Duck so openly.

Glirdan was overly defensive yesterday, even though he was not under much serious suspicion (most of the suspicion expressed about him yesterday (mine included) came up during the opening Day 1 “in-character” banter). As I said yesterday, his point about Valier was a weak one, and seemingly gratuitous. While Nogrod has pointed out that Wolves sometimes make slips, I don’t see how saying “I never wanted her dead” about someone whose death was a foregone conclusion can be construed as a Duckish slip.

Lote22's only real contribution was to vote for Nilp. I currently believe her innocent for it, so would welcome some further input from her.

Lalaith has offered seemingly helpful and constructive comments, although nothing truly incisive. Then again, how many of us have? I have no reason to suspect her at the moment.

JennyHallu’s vote for Sleepy, tying him on 3 votes with Nilp, unnerves me. She was fairly vocal yesterday, without saying much that was constructive. I believe that she is capable of more. So I’m keeping my eye on her.

Elu Ancalime has contributed virtually nothing. He did not vote and has not explained why (other than some vague comment about there being a lot of discussion, which I didn’t really understand). Based on what Nogrod has said about his prior experience of Elu, I think it quite possible that he’s a silent Duck.

Sleepy Ranger was effectively the alternative candidate to Nilp yesterday. We would have to have been incredibly lucky to have had two Ducks on the ropes. But it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. Difficult to say at the moment.

Dancing spawn of ungoliant is one that I traditionally suspect, even though she usually talks sense and offers helpful analyses. She has been doing just that in this village, and yet I don’t find myself suspecting her. Which troubles me, if that makes any sense. For now, I am inclined to trust her.

So, in summary:

Probably innocent: Lote22

Currently inclined to trust: Anguirel, Valier, Nogrod, Cailín, Lalaith, spawn

Don’t know: Kath, Roa, Glirdan, Sleepy

Suspicious: mormegil, Jenny, Elu

Decidedly Duckish: Mithalwen

The Nightingale can protect the same person any number of times but not on consecutive nights.I think we should consider the consequences of the Nightingale not being able to protect the same person tonight. More on this shortly.

[Mithalwen]

Oh Saucie .... you disappoint me. Now I am certain you are the goose.

[Anguirel]

Mith, it wasn't me who took issue with your use of the term hypocrisy, but Roa herself. My involvement was confined to correcting your spelling.

EDIT: Oops. That's meant to read Roa's spelling.

I do, though, think it rather slack of you, in view of the stunning wereperformance your repertoire now contains, to stress your honesty and insist that we, without proof, accept it. I find your appeal moving, but nowadays I don't get moved. Covered with too much, ah, fashionable Imperial costume, I suppose...

[Lalaith]

Correcting Roa's spelling, wasn't it, not Mith's....

[Anguirel]

Exactly, exactly, blast, forgot who I was talking to. My noodle is fried. Sorry Mith.

[Mithalwen]

Mith, it wasn't me who took issue with your use of the term hypocrisy, but Roa herself. My involvement was confined to correcting your spelling.

I do, though, think it rather slack of you, in view of the stunning wereperformance your repertoire now contains, to stress your honesty and insist that we, without proof, accept it. I find your appeal moving, but nowadays I don't get moved. Covered with too much, ah, fashionable Imperial costume, I suppose...


I didn't say otherwise. And I think I spelled it right originally. ButI think you asked at some point if I suspected anyone other than DSOU and I reminded you of stating my suspicion of Roa. I feel like that chap on House who had a medical condition that meant his words only made sense to him.

Oh great - I am damned regardless... Spawn suspects me cos she remembers me being a bad wolf, you do becasue you remember me as a good one. If you must bring up old games.....

[Anguirel]

Well, it is after all not as if I'm playing a different Mith every time...

...is it??? (My mind is filling with disturbing imaginings of thousands of Mith-doubles...)

[Lalaith]

A question for Spawn: have you been doing your analyses as the mood takes you, or focusing just on those villagers you suspect/find intriguing?

[Mithalwen]

I would say that like, Goran Ivanisevic, there are three of me. Good, bad and emergency as far as WW games go. In life the cool, efficient but utterly bored book-keeper and administrator, the inner poet, and the shade of the teacher who thought she had a vocation but instead had breakdown.

[Nogrod]

I’ve been looking those who are left out from Morm’s (own analysis)list concerning Nilp. If we leave out those who actually voted for Nilp – just for this analysis - and those who a) said nothing, b) said little or unsubstantial, or c) defended him, it leaves four people out of the inquiry: Morm himself, Spm, Roa and Lalaith. Their thoughts about Nilp – and their actual votes were as follows:


Spm #22
I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

Spm #26
But that could be precisely what he wants us to think. The fact is that his self-vote does not give anything away, as it is what we would expect from him. It’s unhelpful, even in future days when Day 1 ramblings might reveal more. That’s why I am suspicious of him.

Spm #73
I mentioned my suspicions of Nilp and his self-vote earler, and they hold.

Spm #99
At the moment, my other main suspects are Nilp, for reasons stated earlier (although I am inclined to give him a chance and see how he acts tomorrow),

Spm #113
And I am not inclined to consider saving Nilp or Sleepy (and would not be even were I not suspicious of them myself). If they get lynched, it’s their own silly fault for random/suicidal voting.

VOTING: Mithalwen (10th vote – Nilp in trouble, but still Mith’s first voter)
10. SpM for Mith (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)


Roa #25
3. I find Nilp's self-vote annoying. Does he actually become more helpful if he survives Day 1? If so, leave him. If not, get rid of him.

Roa #103
Maybe if we let Nilp live, he'll be useful. If he pulls the same stunt tomorrow, I'll probably vote for him, and advocate his banishment from Werewolf. (People like that just take up space and make the game less fun. And if he is a Duck, I find it terribly unsporting and he should be ashamed of himself.)
10 minutes in between these posts...
Roa #104
I really don't want Nilp or Sleepy to die, since I'm curious as to what they'll do on Day 2. Especially Nilp.

VOTING: Glirdan (11th vote – Nilp still in trouble, Getting Glirdan nearer, but not voting Sleepy with 2 already)
11. Roa for Glirdan (Nilp-3, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-2, Sleepy-2, Mith-1)


Morm #76
Now Nilp is generally unhelpful on Day 1 and if his desire is to die I may encourage it though he may not be a duck I think it's possible. How are we to know if he continually votes for himself, and as was pointed out, would do so this time to avoid suspicious.

Morm #95
Nilp makes good cannon fodder but is it an easy way out? But then again he could be guilty. ........... I'm really fairly clueless right now so as to spread things out a bit.

Morm #106
I find Sleepy's sudden vote for Nilp as odd. I know the whole 'self-preservation arguement' so don't bother. However notice how it came immediately after he became tied with Nilp. Obviously Nilp is a person that would be easy to get lynched today so it does seem highly suspect to me.

VOTING: Nogrod (5th vote, very safe...)
5. Morm for Nogrod (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1)


Lalaith #79
I am veering towards Nilp - as tradition or no, I don't approve of suicide and find it singularly unhelpful under the current circumstances. It is also a good mask to hide behind.

Lalaith #97
I've been pondering on the Nilp question and I think I'll give him another chance. After all, if he did break the tradition, that would look suspicious, too...

VOTING: Glirdan (6th. Vote – widening the suspects, not of utmost help to Nilp)
6. Lalaith for Glirdan (Nilp-2, Kath-1, spawn-1, Nogrod-1, Glirdan-1)

* The vote-counts by Spm...

I don't know, whether their actual votes or the voting situation should be counted straightforwardly - our ducks are probably cunning enough not to try to save their companion and leave a track there (I've just mentioned them to see the situation, where they voted).

Judge yourselves. I'll try to do some thinkiing on these - and other matters too - quite soon.

[Cailín]

But accusing people of being a Goose insults their posting style and clarity and so is far more fun...as I think Cailin may just have discovered...

Teehee. :D

Oh Saucie .... you disappoint me. Now I am certain you are the goose.

I am so lost here.

Mithalwen - is completely clouding my mind, as in, I have no idea where she stands. I do distrust her.
Mormegil - I am admittedly swayed by the cases brought up against him. Some pointed out some odd things that escaped my notice. Again referring to a past life, I am inclined to trust Mormegil when he is not attacking me. Which is, of course, pretty senseless.
Roa Aoife - my own private worries remain re: the whole Nilp debate and issues. I explained in previous posts I believe.
JennyHallu - again in regards to Nilp and I had expected more constructive posting from her. Holding my judgement though.
Glirdan - I am not used to hearing nothing from Glirdy for so long. Worrisome.

This is the list of people currently under my attention. The others are either dunnos or inclined-to-trust-os.

Oh, and Nogrod, I do not think our Ducks expected Nilp to die that Day or any Day soon... so vote-patterns might be more telling than in a normal wolf-under-fire situation. That is just my opinion.

[Mithalwen]

Cailin, you are a bright girl and I, on instinct rather than analysis, would be surprised if you were web footed. Deep breath. Clear your mind and think for yourself but just consider the possibility that I speak the absolute truth.

[Lalaith]

I found Nogrod's analysis illuminating. I had not really looked at the 'suspecting Nilp but not voting for him' crowd, probably because I was in their number and my own reasons for deciding against voting for him were quite genuine, I kind of assumed everyone else in the same boat had thought the same way.
A very foolish assumption to make in Werewolf, of course.

Looking at Nogrod's post, I see trouble with Roa again.

If she's not a duck she's been very goosey. Arguing ad nauseum with Nogrod yesterday, being angry with Nilp today.

Another thing that troubles me is Jenny's absence. I know she has a valid reason, but there's a few things I'd like to ask her, mainly regarding her defence of Nilp.

As for Elu-sive Ancalime, if he doesn't turn up and vote, he's out on his ear anyway, I presume.

[Anguirel]

That rather worrying possibility has just occurred to me...

EDIT: I here refer to Mith's post above, not Lalaith's.

[Cailín]

Cailin, you are a bright girl and I, on instinct rather than analysis, would be surprised if you were web footed. Deep breath. Clear your mind and think for yourself but just consider the possibility that I speak the absolute truth.

Well, thanks, Mith.

Okay. Possibility considered. But I still do not see SpM being decidedly Goose-ish.

[Lalaith]

Sorry, to elucidate my above post, I had of course looked at everyone in that group, but not in the context of their behaviour regarding Nilp.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I was working off spawn's list, which omitted JennyHallu's vote.

Interesting that spawn omitted it from her earlier list (although I doubt a Duck would draw attention both to herself and the person she omitted like that I for one was working off Valier's list from yesterDay. :D

Mith has been calmer toDay which is nice, but doesn't necessarily indicate her innocence. I've actually started thinking that she's the Goose with the talk about that we'll see that she's an innocent if we kill her etc. Also, I don't see anything wrong with my goose logic. If we lynch someone strongly suspecting them to be a duck and they turned out to be "innocent" = and we know that term covers some distinctions, it is a stong possibility that they were the goose rather than an ordo or a gifted.Haven't you ever suspected someone and then been truly surprised when they turned out to be innocent? We lynch people whom we strongly suspect to be Ducks every Day, that's the point of this all. Some of them are likely to be innocent, and since they all can't be Geese, it's possible that none of them is and therefore it isn't safe to make assumptions like that. I can't help thinking that you're the Goose who's hoping that we assume that the first innocent we lynch will be regarded as the Goose instead.


A question for Spawn: have you been doing your analyses as the mood takes you, or focusing just on those villagers you suspect/find intriguing?Both. :D With considering schedule restrictions, of course...

That said, I need to vote soon. I shall go doing some rereading now.

[Mithalwen]

Mith . Also, Haven't you ever suspected someone and then been truly surprised when they turned out to be innocent? .
.


Well that is exactly what I imagine you will think if you lynch me. Why can't you open your mind? Are you a duck? I don't know about you .... again i am disappointed by someone reputed for their intelligence not using it.

[Nogrod]

Just a funny incidence I noted (partly remembered, so correct me, if I'm wrong) First Ang suspected Morm about "goose-talk". Then came Spm and suspected Ang on the same grounds. And as I was going through those Nilp-discussions, I found out, that Spm has made some "goose-talk" himself too (#67 & #99)! And as we add Mith here, then we just can't go on saying that talking from the point of view of the geese is a reason to suspect one or another.

Another nice one. Spm was really worried yesterday that the Owl-discussion would do damage to the village (it had alrerady done by his words), but now he seems very excited to get up a discussion of the Nightingale-work... So what is your point Spm? To talk, or not to talk about playing the gifted-roles?

[Cailín]

Well that is exactly what I imagine you will think if you lynch me. Why can't you open your mind? Are you a duck? I don't know about you .... again i am disappointed by someone reputed for their intelligence not using it.

I am not sure if it has anything to do with intelligence, Mithalwen.

We are (almost) all intelligent people here. Yet this game is never played perfectly. Innocents and Ducks alike get lynched.

You cannot expect to claim: "I am honestly innocent" and have everyone immediately believe you. That is not the point of the game. We all have different views. That is the point of discussion. Your almost passionate defence of yourself... it is distracting, it is pointless and it does not make you look more trustworthy at all.

Sometimes you are just wrong, intelligence and innocence disregarded. And sometimes you are right. Makes the world go round, you know.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh Saucie .... you disappoint me. Now I am certain you are the goose.Hmm, I wonder why you accuse me of Goosiness rather than Duckishness, Mith. Are you perhaps trying to put yourself in a better position in the event that I am lynched or killed (by you?) and proven innocent? Or are you the Goose yourself, as has been suggested?

But now onto a subject that I am wary to broach, but which I think we ought to discuss. I know that I eschewed talk of the Owl yesterday, but the night’s events have changed matters to a degree. The Hawk and the Nightingale can talk with each other. As can the Ducks, when deciding on their kill. That means, probably, that four people came to the assessment that last night’s target was a possible Owl. Now, it’s quite possible that this person was not the Owl, and they all got it wrong. But it’s also possible that they got it right. I don’t think that’s letting any big secrets out of the bag. The Ducks will have worked that out for themselves, I am sure. The Nightingale cannot protect the same person he or she protected last night. Which means that the person targeted by the Ducks last night is likely to be targeted again tonight. If they are the Owl, then valuable information may be lost.

In these circumstances, it seems to me that the Owl should declare themselves if (but only if) they know the identity of one Duck. That seems fairly obvious to me, so I’m sure it is something the Owl would have thought of anyway. I don't think that the Owl should step forward if they know only innocents, as he or she may not have been targetted last night at all. But what do people think?

Another possibility that occurred to me would be for the Hawk to step forward and declare the identity of the person the Nightingale protected last night. Then, if that person is the Owl, they could step forward and reveal all they know, as they will almost certainly die tonight anyway. This means that one of the Gifteds will be exposed, so it is not something that should be undertaken lightly and without serious consideration by all. If it is done, it’s better that the Hawk steps forward, rather than the Nightingale, because it is more important that the Nightingale remains hidden. And the Ducks may be wary of targeting the Hawk, since he or she might take one of them down. At worst, the Hawk would have a shot at the Ducks (and therefore be fulfilling his/her mission). At best, we would have a known innocent for a few Days at least. In either case, if the Owl was last night’s target, we would get their information before they die. The only drawback, of course, is that it is early in the game and so the Hawk has less chance of killing a Duck, if attacked, than he or she would have later in the game. That’s why I think that this is something we should discuss, before anyone does anything rash. There may well be other drawbacks which I have not thought of.

Thoughts?

[Mithalwen]

Thoughts? I repeat Mr Orc that you are either being stupid or a GOOSE.

I can't bear this any longer . Gather round children, Aunt Mithalwen will tell you a story.

[The Saucepan Man]

Then came Spm and suspected Ang on the same grounds.Eh? I never accused Ang of Goosiness. I rather agreed with him (yesterday) about mormegil being a possible Goose. Today, I commented on Cailin's thought that Ang might be the Goose. But then it occurred to me that, at this early stage at least, there was probably little merit in trying to spot the Goose. Better to look for Ducks (and possibly catch a Goose along the way).

Spm was really worried yesterday that the Owl-discussion would do damage to the village (it had alrerady done by his words), but now he seems very excited to get up a discussion of the Nightingale-work...Situations change, Nogrod. I am reacting to events. I have said my piece now anyway.

[Mithalwen]

The Owl and the Birds


AN OWL, in her wisdom, counseled the Birds that when the acorn
first began to sprout, to pull it all up out of the ground and
not allow it to grow. She said acorns would produce mistletoe,
from which an irremediable poison, the bird-
lime, would be extracted and by which they would be captured.
The Owl next advised them to pluck up the seed of the flax, which
men had sown, as it was a plant which boded no good to them.
And, lastly, the Owl, seeing an archer approach, predicted that
this man, being on foot, would contrive darts armed with feathers
which would fly faster than the wings of the Birds themselves.
The Birds gave no credence to these warning words, but considered
the Owl to be beside herself and said that she was mad. But
afterwards, finding her words were true, they wondered at her
knowledge and deemed her to be the wisest of birds. Hence it is
that when she appears they look to her as knowing all things,
while she no longer gives them advice, but in solitude laments
their past folly.


I say Saucepanman, that I do not accuse you of being a Duck because I know you are not. I dreamed of you last night. Does anyone now need me toexplain why I thought you stupid, and then a GOOSE> I was disappointed because briefly I thought you might have "got it" and be trying to help.

[Cailín]

Uh oh.

[Kath]

Right, the Goose. Meant as a distracting influence on the village yes? Well, even if the Goose themself hasn't even got involved in this argument, the idea itself is doing a fine job of it!

We're looking for Ducks, therefore we attempt to lynch those we think to be Ducks. Killing the Goose will do us little good right now as:
1) The Goose doesn't kill at Night, the Ducks do.
2) Even if we do get the Goose, we won't know.

And now with Mith's revelation I should say it is more imperative than ever that we concentrate on the Ducks. We are likely to lose our Owl toNight, we need to concentrate on those that can do real damage to the village.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Well that is exactly what I imagine you will think if you lynch me. Why can't you open your mind? Are you a duck? I don't know about you .... again i am disappointed by someone reputed for their intelligence not using it.Last time when someone called me single-minded I had found a wolf. :rolleyes: However, your coolness speaks for your favour... I don't know.

There has been quite much talk about morm and Roa as well, for example. I haven't had time to analyse Roa, but morm I did find somewhat questionable.

All these "duels" are strange, too. I've never seen so many people starting more or less fierce debates with each other, the latest addition to the trend being Kath and Sleepy.

My vote will follow in a few minutes.

edit: Whoa, cross-posted with Mith.

[Mithalwen]

I dreamed of Nogrod on the first night. I knew we were likely to have a lot of online time together and after out amazing duels when I was a wolf and he the Seer I had to know if our roles were reversed.


Any more questions or can i let my heart rate settle? The game you should look at is Ang's reverse one. Being gifted overloads my circuits. I hoped to hold out another day and maybe night. I hope that I may get you another dream.... but I may have been protected last night.

[Kath]

So, Mith, are you saying you dreamt of Nogrod and SPM and found both innocent?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I really need to go now. I shall vote for

++mormegil

for he was my second suspect of toDay. Good Night!

[Mithalwen]

I found the story when I was seeking subtle ways of indicating my status - no wonder I WAS IRRITATED WITH YOU ALL BLEATING ON about what I should do. My new sig is from the Illiad. A prayer to Athene, whose symbot is the OWL and which is the species name. I hoped that using sophistry and saying to choose wisely might help...

[Cailín]

My uh oh meant I was just typing a meaningless post, refreshed and found Mith's revelation. I am so sorry, Mith. I had almost the same thing happening to me once and it was really blah.

You will live another Night, cause I doubt the Nightingale protected you. You were under too much fire yesterDay already, I think, to be a target for the Ducks. That is a comfort.

[Kath]

Mith you give us young ones too much credit! I've never read the Illiad!

[Anguirel]

That'll be it. Of course, Sauce will call her a Goose. Logically he'll be right. I don't stand with logic today.

Mith, you have been vilely slandered. I should have overcome my doubts and stood by you.

We now have

Mith-Owl, endorsed by me for a start
Nogrod-innocent
Sauce-pate-de-foie-gras
Lote-virtual innocent
Valier...plausible innocent

at best.

EDIT: I have read the Iliad, but got excited about the wrong signature-Mith's old one where she said something about booing...made me think Goose.

[Cailín]

Mith you give us young ones too much credit! I've never read the Illiad!

I have translated the Illiad!

I am just not very perceptive. :o

Edit: cross-posted with you, Ang, how does it follow -exactly- that SpM is the goose?

[The Saucepan Man]

I say Saucepanman, that I do not accuse you of being a Duck because I know you are not. I dreamed of you last night. Gah! You're right. I am stupid. I should have spotted your hints. But I have "history" of thinking Seers to be Wolves.

I am an Orc of very little brain indeed. :rolleyes:

Still, it's possible that the Nightingale did not protect you last night. Indeed, it's quite probable since you came across as pretty suspicious and not at all Owlish yesterday (as far as I can see, anyway). I would wager that we'll get another dream out of you at least.

For now, however, back to the drawing board ...

[Mithalwen]

So, Mith, are you saying you dreamt of Nogrod and SPM and found both innocent?


Sorry yes - I thought it was obvious I thought NOGROD innocent. Remember when I commented on Roa suspecting me, Spm and Nogrod she was completely wrong? At that point i hoped I had more time. I thought if I died wihtout declaring you might look back and notice.

I am sorry for you innocents - I tried but I am not up to this. I have spoken the truth all along. My nerves won't cope ... I have felt so ill and i am working for the NHS at the moment -year end.. that is unbearably stressy too....... I have palpitations.

Kath - I had thought of freaming for you in case your illness flared up again - so we would know. But in the end I had to know about the Pan Man

[The Saucepan Man]

Of course, Sauce will call her a Goose.Actually, it did occur to me that she might be just after I hit the submit button on my last post. It's still possible that she is the Goose. But, for now and without more, I am prepared to accept her claim.

I must go for a few hours now. Back later, hopefully with a few productive thoughts and certainly with a vote.

[Mithalwen]

Mith you give us young ones too much credit! I've never read the Illiad!


Nor have I in total - I was just looking for owl refs and that summed up my mood. I knew about Athena. It was a googlable chunk. Ang seems to know everything.

Less High brow i was tempted to call the Pan man a "Twit who...." :D but hen I decided to consider that he and Spawn might be in league and in a weird way protecting me with their suspicion. I really had a problem thinking that someone as bright as the pan man could be so narrowminded. To quote my darling mamma again, about her our own family lawyers, it turned out to be all brains and no sense.

If I survive - and I rather hope you won't lynch me now. Any ideas about who I should dream of....?

[Cailín]

If he is not lynched, I would say Mormegil.

But someone like Lalaith - under the radar smarties - might be wise as well.

[Mithalwen]

Actually, it did occur to me that she might be just after I hit the submit button on my last post. It's still possible that she is the Goose. But, for now and without more, I am prepared to accept her claim.

I must go for a few hours now. Back later, hopefully with a few productive thoughts and certainly with a vote.


If I were the goose I should have played my normal obtuse innocent self. Ang can tell you how helpful that can be .... :rolleyes: until i have only 2 to choose from.

Nice to know the people I clear appreciate me? LOL.... no matter - I suspect the Orcish amour propre is bruised.

[Kath]

Yes I would have suggested morm as well. I always want to know the roles of SPM and morm, and since we already know one of the two!

[Mithalwen]

If he is not lynched, I would say Mormegil.

But someone like Lalaith - under the radar smarties - might be wise as well.


Mormegilwas on my short list. Just because I know he is good at being bad.

[Anguirel]

If he's not lynched tonight, morm. Otherwise...hmmm...I wouldn't mind Cailin myself. But you might want spawn.

Cailin, it doesn't necessarily follow that Sauce is a goose, though looking at his bizarre bird-lime scheme, described so well in Mith's revelation, I find it hard to think him only a well-intentioned blunderer. More to the point though I'm guilty that I suspected Mith and needed to grab a scapegoat.

Oh, Mith, did you have to come out? We might not have lynched you. But that's hardly very encouraging, I know. Sorry.

EDIT: Cross-posted since Mith #203.

[Valier]

Ok I thought I would post a list of all the players and what I think of them so far. I know to some of you this doesn't look helpful, but to me it is....to each their own eh? I do not analysis, so when I read over posts I see connections with how people interact or don't and this always changes with the days to come. Since others want to know what I think ....here goes.


Anguirel: Well I seem to remember a far ago life, where Ang was on my bad guy team. He is very good at confusing the heck out of me and could very well be the Goose, but then again I am usually inclined to trust him, he makes sense to me, when I understand what he's saying.

Mithalwen: Mith seems a little overly sensitive to me, but hey she does tend to defend herself when attacked, that seems normal. I think she is either having a bad day or perhaps just really wants to get a duck.

SaucepanMan: Having never really played alot with him I find it hard to judge him yet. But his points are sound and I do tend to agree with him for the most part. He suspects Mith to be a duck, who is not high on my list as of yet.

Mormegil: Always appears so helpful....could be a friendly-face-costume. I know Morm is a smart guy, so it would be easy for him to fit right in as a baddie. He also tends to get lynched earlier in most games and turns out not to be bad.

Valier: Well what can I say...I know what role I always hold.

Nogrod: Oh Nogrod....He seems to be his normal talkative self always ready to defend and perhaps offend in some cases, but he is a good asset to the village if kept around and proven innocent.

Kath:Hhhhmmmm not so sure of her yet..not high on my suspect list.

Cailin: Well Cailin I tend to agree with mostly, but perhaps her way of playing always has me suspecting her.Not high on list either.

Roa_Aoife: Now Roa I always misjudge. I will think her to be innocent, then she turns out to be a wolf. She does seem a little off today, but I can't tell yet.

Glirdan: Who's this now? OOOOOhhhhh Glirdan! I never know with him! He is usually quiet, but come on! Did he even vote?

Lote22: I always seem to trust the newbies. We will have to see though, we need more participation from this one for me to tguess anything about them.

Lalaith: Another one I am unsure of... Seems helpful, so far.

JennyHallu: Jenny,Jenny,Jenny! She can be a totaly sneaky bad guy, but as an ordo she is very helpful and her logic makes sense to me.

Elu: Another one where it's just like aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh He's so quiet and unhelpful most of the time it gets annoying.

Sleepy: Well Sleepy is always shifty to me, his random votes are a good way to hide, but he usually gets really defensive when accused if he is a bad guy.

Spawn: I'm unsure right now, but something strikes me as odd about her posts. not much else to say, but I will be keeping my eye out for her.

Ok so to sum all that up.

Highly suspisious?

Mithalwen
Mormegil
Jenny
Nogrod
Spawn
Sleepy
Roa

People I trust?

Cailin
Lote22
Elu
Glirdan
Saucepan
lalaith
Kath
Anguirel

Now people I trust includes people I am not sure of and both lists are in no order.I'm back off to read the posts through again to see if I can narrow my list down some more.

[Cailín]

But, something just occurred to me. We should not discuss your dream of choice en public: if he or she is innocent, the Ducks might kill that person to make sure we have no other known innocent. So I suppose you shall have to make up your own mind. :)

[Kath]

Oh! Or Roa, Mith. Her playing style is sending up reg flags all over the place. It would be nice to know if she is innocent or not before I spend most of the Day going after her tomorrow.

[Anguirel]

Sing, goddess, of the Anger of Anguirel.

++MORMEGIL

When I see that man going down to Hades' house,
I will say that my own dear heart has forgotten its distress.

[mormegil]

I'm only on post#145 but I've got a couple of things to say before I go further.

First of all. So skillful player as he seemingly is (I've only played once with him before this), from his analysis, he seems to totally forget those who have had something against Nilp! Kind of wanting us to focus on these others? There might be some Nilp-voters in yesterday's tally - case Valier comes to mind. But even more, I am worried about those, who just suspected Nilp duckishly-lightly enough to secure their backs (not voting, not straightly accusing, but still "suspecting" or "keeping an eye"...)

You and Ang get the most obtuse award of the game so far. I did focus on the others by citing their quotes. I was letting most people read what was said. I found it more likely that at least one duck was in the little to no mention of Nilp than the two were in the mention group.

Firstly, in morm's initial post, he said something about wanting to hire protection. This seems not only selfish, but distinctly odd, seeing as protection does exist in this game, though it's certainly not for hire...

Again, being obtuse. I'm an idleman and therefore I have a lot of money and was in character asking for somebody to do my work for me. Being so pettily pedantic has my suspicious shifting to you.

Then there came the moment when morm introduced his "What a Goose could do" plan, effectively saying we would have to be careful and treat any Owl revelations as possible impostures. To that I replied-

*sigh* As I said I knew this could bring suspcion on me but I wanted to point out a strategy I would possibly use if I were the goose. It was also done in an attempt to make sure the owl didn't make a suddent mistake. No I don't always trust other peoples judgement as I don't always trust my own but I figured I might be able to help.

Yesterday, bar post #46, I called morm a Goose. I now say Boo to that (vide Mith's signature) and declare him a full-feathered duck.

He fudged on Nilp yesterday, but did not include himself on the list of negligible Nilp-watchers, or any list at all. As it was not a suspicion ladder per se this is a rather evasive move.

He's also been, let's face it, pretty unhelpful with a slightly reasoned vote, until this morning, when the aid he brought was...well, similar in quality to Mith's statistics yesterday morning. A useful but scarcely enlightening task performed, that's all.

It's always frustrating to attempt to help and clarify situations for people and me too and then to get slammed on the effort it took. Thanks Kath by the way for the compliement. Anguirel what have you done to be helpful to us other than continuing to speak of Nilp and give us rather condescening spelling lesson?

Again remember that I haven't read everything yet but I"m trying to catch up as quickly as I can.

[Valier]

I cross posted with like everything about Mith being the Owl so My list changes...



Highly suspisious?

Mormegil
Jenny
Spawn
Sleepy
Roa

People I trust?

Cailin
Lote22
Elu
Glirdan
Saucepan- Ordo
lalaith
Kath
Anguirel
Nogrod-Ordo
Mithalwen-Owl

Of the five on my suspect list I will most likely vote for Spawn, Mormegil or Jenny. unless more convincing posts come up. The day is still young (8 hours to go) so you never know lists may change again.

[Mithalwen]

Well this is not a question for me and indeed not one for teh other gifted to speak openly. But shall we say it will help me if you could discuss suspects seriously not just character assasinate me. Also the nightingale and hawk can talk and it is possible that if they are not among our know -"not ducks" we are starting to get a good pool of known innocents. We don't have double lynching for which i am sorry for once. But this doesn't have to be a total disaster.

I am sorry I had to declare but when SPM came out against me i saw that I stood a good chance of being lynched in absentia. Worst case scenrio was that I died and you didn't understand my role. That you never got my dreams. None of you seemed to have a clue and those who defended me -Ang and Morm - well I didn't know you weren't ducks using my first day jitters. I still don't know.

[Anguirel]

Again, being obtuse. I'm an idleman and therefore I have a lot of money and was in character asking for somebody to do my work for me. Being so pettily pedantic has my suspicious shifting to you.

Perhaps this whole ludicrous affair has been caused by the fact that where I come from we do not yet automatically associate idleness with wealth.

How typical of life that would be.

You ask what help I have been other than pedagogue. I have contributed your denunciation. As to its use, we will have to see...over your corpse.

[Nogrod]

How much happens, when you are away for a small while!

Well. I guess it's goodbye village, then... The nightingale does the right job protecting Mith. That's obvious and right, as I can't figure out her/him protecting Mith last night...

And that's good news also, as they will have to decide, whether their last night's kill (Spawn, Ang,... whoever was innocent) is more valuable to them (s/he will not be protected) than me as a "proven" innocent. So Mith: good playing: you left them to trouble now! Rot in your scheming you ducky-***-you! :D

So anyhow: a dream more the next night.

EDIT: TRhis really is a loud village: X-posted from #201 forwards...

[Mithalwen]

One point I forgot to make was that, Jenny bless her, trusted me implicitly - even before I spoke - when I was a wolf. I found it ironic that she suspected me so much as a true hearted gifted.
But that doesn't mean she aint a duck.


I can't believe you could really now doubt what I say - but if you do have doubts - just reread my posts and see which scenario makes sense. I will be around for about 20 mins so .. make the most of me while you can. Note I made no comment on the hot topic -what the owl should do. I didn't trust myself - you feel like you have OWL (Wol for the Pooh fans and poor spellers) tattoed on your forehead.. whichh you can't see.... perhaps that is why you thought me less helpful.

[Mithalwen]

Nogrod - I am sorry to expose you - but you are so clever I had to know. I really hope you are the Hawk - and if you are not there is no need to tell anyone so!!!

[Anguirel]

My part here is done and my more prosaic work is not. I leave with a plea to you all not to be suborned by the hailhearted railing of the duck mormegil.

[Nogrod]

Nogrod - I am sorry to expose you - but you are so clever I had to know.


No problem (and thanks for the second one... :) ). As I said, you did the best thing possible! The ducks have some tough choices the next night, and that's good, as they tend to get jumpy when faced with challenges...

And you should not be in a great haste, as you can PM your pick all the day tomorrow! So we just try to help you as much as we can - and as cunningly as we can... You just read the night's posts tomorrow in peace, and make your own decision after that!

[Mithalwen]

Oh! Or Roa, Mith. Her playing style is sending up reg flags all over the place. It would be nice to know if she is innocent or not before I spend most of the Day going after her tomorrow.


Well I am of a mind to vote for Roa - but that inconsistency bugs me..... although perhaps if she were a duck she wouldn't have highlighted 3 innocents . I am afraid I play weird as a gifted becasue my priorities are different. As when I was Draugluin, I was concentrating in making the right choices for my role. I will review everything that has happened at leisure at night. And choose accordingly. i will be a better judge now I can be open. Assuming I live another day I will tell all if I get a Duck of course, but use my discretion if i choose an innocent. Fair enough?

[Nogrod]

= Mith
Well I am of a mind to vote for Roa - but that inconsistency bugs me..... although perhaps if she were a duck she wouldn't have highlighted 3 innocents . I am afraid I play weird as a gifted becasue my priorities are different. As when I was Draugluin, I was concentrating in making the right choices for my role. I will review everything that has happened at leisure at night. And choose accordingly. i will be a better judge now I can be open. Assuming I live another day I will tell all if I get a Duck of course, but use my discretion if i choose an innocent. Fair enough?
It sounds fair enough for now, but has to be thought of by you...

Just a quick one, if you are about to go.

Roa I have never seen acting like this! She has always been the considerate, and now she's jumpy & aggressive like... I don't know what to make of it. She has been a wolf twice in four of our common games.

Jenny also acts puzzlingly. She's also being a wolf twice in my games. She's never been polite to me, just the contrary (innocent or wolf)! But this game he started with phrases like "Noggy-dear" or "poor Noggy" - seemingly trusting me a lot - I was afraid of saying this aloud, as I thought about the possibility (a slight one, but still) her to be the Owl that had dreamt of me. But as the situation stands - and regarding her intelligence (she would not have made such a turn-around, were she an Owl, it would have been too obvious) - it seems quite unbelievable. And I'm not sure, whether many of you noted that change in tone anyhow... so it might just have been a duck-Jenny trying to buy one of her ardent suspecters away? Or could you come forwards with other reasons?

[Mithalwen]

I am going now. I haven't time to go through everything - funnily enough!

I really havent had time to study some of the quiet ones. Elu I know is great at flying under the radar. Bear in mind when you lynch whatever D18 said about the fate of serial non voters - might clear the field?

Cailin and Lalaith seemed to be straightforward but of course I don't know. Kath too. Valier - not my top priority but it is hard to tell when you have "duelled" with someone coughfrothycough ;).

Spawn - could be a personality clash - I will let other who know her better judge.

I leave you now with the vote for

++Roa-Aoife but see how she goes as and when she returns.

Take care,

Mithalwen (Pigwigeon- crazy owl) :)

[Mithalwen]

I have translated the Illiad!

I am just not very perceptive. :o

Edit: cross-posted with you, Ang, how does it follow -exactly- that SpM is the goose?


Sorry - last gasp - I think Saucepan man said it would be unbelievable for the Owl to declare on Day 2. Unfortunately he made it impossible for me to do otherwise. But it is ironic ..... If you want more Greek mythology think of Cassandra - doomed never to be believed though her words were true. I know the PanMan is a lot cleverer than me - but I do happen to be telling the truth....

[Nogrod]

Well some thoughts about those in the mildly suspecting Nilp -list. (I had made the Spm -part already before reading about Mith's dream, so excuse me, but for later goose-stuff, consider this also...)

Spm.
Somewhat seems to turn his cart, but then again, there is discussion of Mith in his post #73 being suspicious, which probably was X-posted with Mith's #72, where she said: It worries me when peopel I know aren't stupid act stupidly. Saucepanman isn't ringing true to me. I quess some egoes would not take this and turn their opinion to vote the accuser... :D (Sorry Sauce, couldn't resist that one!)

But anyhow. Spm does not seem to me a duckish villager.

Roa
Seems to be somewhat aiding Nilp, but not too obviously (it might be just her cunningness here) by moving Glirdan upwards in the vote-tally to challenge the real lynchee of the day? What she says about Nilp on day1 is basically sensible (remember: she doesn't know Nilp's playing style - as neither do I), but her overall jumpiness & aggressiviness just confuse me - and "beating the dead Duck" - as someone put it... But she would really have to be extra nervous to run rampant like that, as I know she can be cool and reasonable in times of trouble - well, at least mostly. :p So if you lynch Roa, and she turns out to be a duck, look at the "not so well-known players"! It could explain something, if she were the only experienced or otherwise crafty duck - then losing one could call these desperate anxiousnessess about...

I don't know what to make of her. Weird, I say. I might vote for her, but just don't know. If she would be a werecrerature in three games of our (now) five shared ones, that would just be some fate (I've been an innocent in all these)!

Morm
Posted utterly careful posts about Nilp. Suspecting, and then again not suspecting... and in the end voting me at the early stages (hoping to get the innocent lynch on as lifting me to be a reasonable lynchee). But that can be seen as understandable too. The thing that caught my eye, was in his post #105
I find Sleepy's sudden vote for Nilp as odd. I know the whole 'self-preservation arguement' so don't bother. However notice how it came immediately after he became tied with Nilp. Obviously Nilp is a person that would be easy to get lynched today so it does seem highly suspect to me.
There is something I just can't get. And I hope Morm will elaborate on this. Sleepy had just reached his second vote by then (and Nilp had two votes too), and in the end survived with one vote, I can't see any problem in voting for the unknown villager to save one's own neck - at least if you don't have heavy suspicions of that fellows giftedness. So why the suspicion, Morm? Your own voting was safe enough...

Surely looks like an intelligent duck, but also one that makes mistakes... and that's the reaason, I won't be going after him wholeheartedly, just now. I might vote him though, if no better options will come forward.

Lalaith
Gave some preliminary suspicions and distastes of Nilp's playing, but later said, that after pondering is willing to give him another chance. Her vote largened the scope of votees (6th vote, the first for Glirdan), so hard to say.

Not specially duckish - but then again, that might just be the thing: playing like a duck, and not to appear like one...

[Cailín]

I have to finish my Yeats assignment thingie still and I also promised myself to go to bed early again (as it clearly did not work before).

Mith is -of course- off my suspect list. JennyHallu and Glirdan still did not speak up. That makes Roa Aoife or Mormegil. Both of them already have a vote. However, there is one of them whom I would really love to know the identity of as soon as possible. This will be no surprise, I'm sure.

So...

++MORMEGIL

As for Saucepan Man, even if he is the Goose he cannot do us much harm now. We should just not take him too seriously, but then again - we should take none of us too seriously. Except for Mith, because she is wise and all-knowing. Or so we hope.

[Nogrod]

Mith!

I've thought about you tomorrow.

Duck-dream is a clear case - it leaves the village with only one duck to get rid of.

But the ordo-dream is a nastier one. Our ducks will read your "hints" as fluently as the rest of the villagers. So you will have to decide, whether to come openly revealing her/him or just leave all in confusion about your pick (that seems to me to be a waste of a dream). So your discretion indeed! But remember: your chosen one will have one more day to live (as you will be killed the night after this one), so pick carefully, thinking, who would be the best asset for the village for two days, but whose loss the village might bear after that. That's a hard choice you're facing... Oh how I would have loved to continue with this one...

[wilwarin538]

I'm glad to see we've been lucky, a Duck on Day 1 and no death Day 2. I'm sad to see that Mith had to reveal herself though, I just hope she can get lucky toNight and dream of a Duck.

Since I came late in the Day there was a lot for me to read. I read almost of the posts fully but closer to the end I got tired and started to skim. :rolleyes: But I think I still caught the main idea of the posts and I think I can still make a good opinion of people.

So the people I think are innocent are:
Anguirel - he seems helpful and trustworthy
Lalaith - seemed to make sense most of the time
Mith - for obvious reasons
Valier, Nogrod and Kath - all seem trustworthy to me
SPM - proven innocent by Mith

My not sure list:
Mormegil - seems helpful but people have raised good points against him
Jenny - same as Morm
Elu and Glirdan: havn't posted much, but of course neither have I

My suspect list:
Sleepy: for the same reasons that everyone has stated
Roa: I really didn't like that rant of hers, very pointless. I also don't understand why she bothered mentioning that she thought Mith mis-used a word. What does that have to do with anything? I just think Roa isn't very on topic.

So I think I will probably vote for Roa. But I will wait a little longer.

[Sleepy Ranger]

++Kath

It was a tie between JennyHallu and Kath really. I picked the latter because JennyHallu has been an evil being way too many times recently, not sure what difference that makes but I'd eat my title of 'KoQ' if shes trying to kill the village again!

I voted for Kath because apparently she said she planned on suspecting me no matter what I did.

No, it wouldn't. But I won't argue anymore. We'll just have to agree to differ.

According with her if instead of making the self-preservation vote, I voted randomly she had decided to suspect me anyway. And seeing how she was using that vote as the basis of her arguement I find her suspicious.

Good night everyone! :)

[Valier]

Uuuummmm When did you sign up Wilwarin? I don't have you on my list of players! maybe you signed up after I printed it out.....weird....I didn't even know you were playing.:confused:

edit: oh and Wilwarin I didn't know Valesse was playing.....

[Kath]

Uh, yeah, I don't see wilwa on the list either. What's going on? :confused:

[Sleepy Ranger]

Uuuummmm When did you sign up Wilwarin? I don't have you on my list of players! maybe you signed up after I printed it out.....weird....I didn't even know you were playing.:confused:

Shes not, Glirdan is on the wrong account or something. What I'm more concerned about however, is what Valesse is doing on the innocents list.

Edit: Cross-posted with Kath, hope this clears it up.

[Valier]

Is someone using someone elses identity?:mad:

[Nogrod]

Knock-knock!

Whose knocking?

Wilva and Valesse, wanting to come in from the cold world outside... :cool:

[Nogrod]

Do I remember correctly, that Lote was Wilva's sister? (I might have got somethig wrong in here) Or someone was someone's? A joke maybe - forgotten just now?

[Valier]

It can't be Glirdan, because they put him on their list!!!

[Kath]

Perhaps Lote is on wilwa's account by accident?

[Sleepy Ranger]

Oh right... I should pay more attention...

Perhaps Lote is on wilwa's account by accident?

Yeah, quite possible. Lote is Wilwa's sister, how could I forget? But yes, being on the wrong account is quite possible.

[Anguirel]

Don't panic people, I think it's Lote, who is indeed wilwa's sister. And yes, I know I'm not supposed to be here. I'm keeping an eye on affairs between essays...

[Nogrod]

Or Wilva is Lote. Her new identity she just forgot? :smokin:

[Sleepy Ranger]

Or Wilva is Lote. Her new identity she just forgot? :smokin:

Nah, Wilwa and Lote are sisters... I've talked to both on MSN! ^_^

[Nogrod]

The votes so far (it was hard enough to track them so far, so it might be easier to continue with this - on the top of the page as well... - oh boy you talk, like I do... :D ):

1. Spawn --> Morm (Morm1)
2. Ang --> Morm (Morm2)
3. Mith --> Roa (Morm 2, Roa1)
4. Cailin --> Morm (Morm 3, Roa1)
5. Sleepy --> Kath (Morm3, Roa1, Kath1)

[Nogrod]

And just a quick add-on. The two first votes on Morm were made, before he had a chance to defend himself. I just hope Morm would appear soon, as I'm inclined to vote for him too in the hour (or then Roa, or Lalaith, or Jenny, or...).

Speak up people - and not only on Wilwa's amazing appearance... (funny thing - and might be opening nice discussions later, but really)

[Lote22]

Sorry for that confusion. Me and my sister (Wilwa) share a computer. I forgot to log out of her account before I posted, I didn't realise I was logged in as her.

Sorry bout that.

[Kath]

It's ok Lote, we figured it out! But you ought to know that Valesse isn't playing, Valier is.

Oh please let me have that the right way round!

[Nogrod]

No problem, Lote. I have to share the computer with Lommy from time to time, and it's always a thing to remember, logging out... So we just take Wilwa's post as yours.

[Nogrod]

But Lote!

Please talk more!

If you are innocent, we need your views and points on the discussion!

[Lote22]

Oh yeah I came on to vote. :rolleyes:

I decided to vote for Roa since she's the one I'm most suspicious of.

++Roa

Corssposted with Kath and Nogrod: Sorry bout the mix up with Valesse and Valier, I'll change that. I will try to post more Nogrod.

[Glirdan]

OCC-Here is my check in post. I had school and I couldn't get on. Did I not say before the game started that I wouldn't be posting as much?

Well, congratualtions to our Nightingale. Job well done!!

I must express a concern of mine which has arisen: Mith proclaiming that she is the Owl. I, however, do not believe this. I believe that she is probably a Duck or the Goose. I have my reasoning which I shall get to later, yet this will put me in a lot of danger. I shall return with my reasoning shortly.