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The Saucepan Man
05-28-2007, 04:59 AM
It was a time of terror in the Anduin vale.

For many weeks now, the villages of the Woodsmen who lived there had suffered terrible and bloody attacks at night. At first, the livestock had been taken. Sheep, cattle and pigs were found at first light, mutilated and half eaten. Then, when the villagers had set guards to protect their animals, the guards themselves had been set upon and none had survived. And it was not long before the unknown and unseen foes began to attack the villagers themselves. Occasionally, a wolf would be found dead amongst the bodies of those who sought to protect the villages. But still the attacks continued. In terror, the inhabitants of each village debated among themselves what should, or could, be done to resist this terrible evil which seemed to have befallen the land. But no single village, it seemed, could stand alone against the nightly attacks.

And so a message had been sent out to each village, proposing that a moot be held to decide what action the villages might take together to protect themselves. Each village was asked to send a delegate to the moot, which was to be held in the village of Woodgard, close to the south-western eaves of Mirkwood. The Woodsmen villagers had gladly agreed to this proposal, since concerted action against the nightly marauders seemed the only way to bring them to a halt. And so, within only a day or so of the message being sent out, delegates from each village began to arrive in Woodgard, only to find it deserted ...

Sign-up is open for Werewolf Four and Thirty: Bloodbath in the Anduin Vale.

Please post in the Admin thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=523242#post523242) to sign-up. This thread is closed to further posting until the game begins.

The Saucepan Man
05-31-2007, 04:31 PM
Those who arrived in Woodgard were surprised and fearful to find the village deserted. What had happened in this place? Where were the village’s inhabitants? Who had sent the summons, if not the people of Woodgard? What would await them upon their return to their villages? Rumour and speculation were rife, but none seemed to have any answers. Fearful of being murderously slain in the night, yet too tired from their travels to express more than half-formed thoughts, those present found what accommodation they could among the empty buildings and fell into a restless sleep, disturbed by nightmares of a strangely culinary and cacophonous nature.

By the first light of day, a gruesome discovery awaited those present. The Saucepan Man, an elder of the village of Farraway and noted chef, was discovered dead in one of the outlying huts. His pots and pans were scattered, and he had been torn limb from limb by cruel claws and sliced and diced by wicked fangs. Half of his bloodied corpse lay butchered on the table. The whereabouts of the other half was not immediately apparent, although a spicy ghoulash simmering in his largest pot on the rudimentary stove provided a grisly clue.

As the remaining delegates arrived in the village, it was agreed that the moot should nevertheless proceed as planned. All present filed in to the village’s council chamber. But the mystery surrounding the fate of Woodgard, fuelled by the terror which the most recent attack had inspired in every heart, meant that the proceedings soon descended into chaos. Try as they might, no one could bring order to the meeting, and every question raised provoked a confusion of voices, bewildered, angry and fearful.

But then, suddenly, the chamber fell quiet and all heads turned to the entrance, where a magnificent Golden Eagle, the size of a man, stood regarding the assembly with a quizzical eye. The crowd parted as the great bird hopped into the centre of the throng. Then, as the initial shock of the arrival subsided, hands reached for swords and axes were hefted. The people of the Anduin Vale were no friends of the great Eagles of the Misty Mountains, since the mighty birds preyed occasionally upon their herds, and many quickly concluded that the answer to their recent troubles was standing here before them.

But, before any present could move towards the avian apparition, the bird began to transform, and every hand froze once more. Gradually, the figure of the Eagle resolved itself into that of an old man, bearded and robed in brown.

Cries of recognition rang out.

“Radagast!”

“Yes,” replied the Wizard. “I am Radagast. But there is no time for introductions, for I have not long, and much to tell you. You have, I am sad to say, fallen into to a trap set by the minions of the Dark Lord, one which I only recognised as such myself late last night. It was by the will of Sauron that you were brought here. And those behind it are the very same fiends who are responsible for the attacks on your villages. They are some of his most terrible servants. Werewolves!”

Cries of fear and alarm.

“This village was the first to fall to them, and they are with us here now as we speak,” the Wizard continued. “By day, they walk among you unnoticed, yet by night they prowl unseen as fearsome beasts. The summons was sent to bring all of you, the strongest and wisest of your villages, here, so that they could murder you while you sleep and then plunder what remains of your villages with ease. They have waylaid some of the travellers on their journey here, and assumed their identities.”

As a multitude of questions rose up from the crowd, Radagast suddenly faltered and began to fade.

“My time is short!” he sternly declared above the chaotic voices. “A terrible enchantment has been wrought about this village. Its source is the Dark Tower of Dol Guldur, but more than that I cannot perceive. My appearance here is but a projection, and I cannot maintain it much longer, so you must all listen while I still have time. The enchantment is such that you will be unable to leave this place unless you kill those here who serve the Dark Lord of Mordor. It is they who provide the channel for his power.”

At this, a flurry of questions once more rang out.

“But how do we know who to kill?”

“How can we recognise the Wolves among us?”

“They dare not attack you by day, for your combined strength is too great for them while they walk in human form. But you cannot risk mass murder, for then you will fall prey to their wiles and your villages will be lost. So, you must choose each day one of your number to face death and continue doing so until you have found all of the murderous fiends. Some among you who are innocent will die at the hands of their companions, while others will be murdered by Wolfish claws by night, as The Saucepan Man was. But there is no other way. I cannot …”

Radagast’s image had all but disappeared and only a faint trace of him remained.

“I have done want I can to help you. My foresight allowed me to ensure that there are those among you who will be able to aid you in your endeavour. I am sorry I could not do more …”

And with that Radagast vanished completely.

*********************

The dead:

The Saucepan Man - Slaughtered and boiled up in a spicy ghoulash on Night zero.

The living:

Mormegil
Rikae - the naughty delegate from the village with the unlikely name of Castle Anthrax
Durelin - the Follywood delegate
Aganzir - the Dwarf delegate of a Woodsmen village
Gil-Galad
Shastanis Althreduin - the extremely detail-oriented centaur delegate from the Plains
Volo - the very hairy delegate from as far as it gets
Nogrod - the moody delegate from the Witch-burners' village who is ready and willing to form a theory to suit his feelings whatever the facts ...
Boromir88 - the filibuster delegate from Laketown, whose geography is not that good
Meneltarmacil - ye Olde Knighte delegate
The Sixth Wizard
Thinlómien - the Delegate of INSTRAW
Legate of Amon Lanc - the De-Legate of Amon Lanc
Kath
Isabellkya - the delegate from the village Kyaq
the guy who be short - the delegate from nearby Necropolis
xyzzy - the Kanudan representative
Mithalwen - the delegate of an anarco-sydicalist commune, taking her turn as a sort of executive officer for the week
Feanor of the Peredhil - the slightly offbeat delegate who offers controversial suggestions to the moot regardless of lycanthropic tendencies
Rune Son of Bjarne

Day 1 has now begun. Let the mooting (and the bloodbath) commence ...

Kath
05-31-2007, 05:05 PM
Where is everyone? A death and a bunch of werewolves on our hands and no one wants to talk about it? How on earth are we going to find anything out that way!

And this really is a horrible situation. Is it just me or do we not know how many wolves are even out there?

Hope someone else turns up soon.

xyzzy
05-31-2007, 05:13 PM
[Since I failed to say so in the thread, I'm the Kanudan representative...]

Hmm, this is certainly interesting. Werewolves, eh? Well, that's interesting. I suppose we should start casting suspicion on each other now. I think one of these Werewolves is this Kath fellow. First one to speak up is probably trying to sound like he really dislikes Werewolf survival.

Kath
05-31-2007, 05:27 PM
First one to speak up is probably trying to sound like he really dislikes Werewolf survival.
I be a she xyzzy. And indeed, I do dislike Werewolf survival. Or at least I was under the impression that that was the point of the game ... lynching them.

Ah but it is time for this delegate to get to bed, if one can sleep with all that's happened.

Shastanis Althreduin
05-31-2007, 05:29 PM
Make way, make way, I'm kinda big and it's awfully crowded in here. Hm. Werewolves, eh? We've seen their like, down on the Plains. Nasty creatures, strangely susceptible to silver.

Well. I'm going to see if I can't clean up that gruesome mess in the kitchen, it's driving me batty!

Meneltarmacil
05-31-2007, 05:37 PM
Oh, deare. After all those wars to the southe where I served ye Stewarde as a Knighte, I retire up here only to finde a bunche of bloodthirsty Beastes!

Nowe, a Wolfe is a crafty creature. But some are more capable of hiding than others are. I say we force them oute into ye open ande get themme talking. A Wolfe can hide in a crowd and say little, but if forced to be loude, that same Wolfe may slippe.

Rune Son of Bjarne
05-31-2007, 06:11 PM
And how do you sugest that we force them to speak?

Surely you are not sugesting this without a plan. . .

Nogrod
05-31-2007, 06:15 PM
Well, this reminds me of a case in our village back there...

We've dealt with witches basically... a bit at least... but who says it's not the same with werewolves? They're an eerie bunch of creatures both of them, aren't they? And dangerous...

So what do we do with witches is that we burn them because they're made of wood. And wood floats on water... as well as very small rocks or lead... or what would you think? Who of us might float? That's a witch I say! And then we just need to take scales and see if they weight as much as werewolves...

Or think about things that might disappear from the surface but then rise back yet again and again. S/he might have been the one who turned me into a newt... well, I got better. But anyhow...

Sorry to be this hasty at the moment but I need some serious sleep. I'll come back though and hope to find a bit more lively discussion then.

But this far I can only say, speak brothers and sisters... and speak wolves! That's the way we get to know you...


Although I would wish to make some very early notes.
I think one of these Werewolves is this Kath fellow. First one to speak up is probably trying to sound like he really dislikes Werewolf survival.And so Xyzzy waited to be the second one and thus being able to say that the first one is suspicious? Nice... but I think calling the first one the suspicious one is quite presumptious - or too safe. Make an appearance, make a visit from which you can say you did something? I can't say I trust the Kanudan right now too much.

And Shasta's appearance with a laadi-daa post as well makes me wonder... basic wolf-stuff appearing without anything to leave for others in substance - and thence no one has a good reason to lynch him. Too easy?

From the very thin sample of players they both have earned my suspicions. But happily there is lots of this Day left for them to prove me otherwise.

I mean one can even try to say something even if it's a "first post" of one's. Like just trying to get a handle of this how small or fickle that contribution might be, just to show one is serious about this - which does not mean one can't be joyful at the same time. But just actually saying something as well... if not about others (when there is no chance - but now there surely is, so no excuses anymore - and I think this fits a couple of the last posters anyways) then about the overall tactics or whatever. Everything one says can be used in close examination afterwards and what we need is an ability to close-examine everyone here.

Like Menel here spoke with the words of wisdom. Let the wolves talk and betray themselves with their own talk! That's what we believe in our village: good arguments! This has been the traditon in my village and I do believe in it still.

I hope Menel will also say more than that as just stating an self-evidency is not too much either...

Speak up people, state your views! That's the only way the wolves will be caught apart from pure luck or astonishing slipperies by them...

Rikae
05-31-2007, 06:33 PM
While Nogrod is right in objecting to Xyzzy's words...I'd say pointing out that casting suspicion on the first to speak is in itself, at the best, badly reasoned, and at worst, wolfish...it doesn't jibe with my (admittedly fallible) impression of Kath; and the post itself seemed somehow tense or tight. Careful, maybe.

Mind you, I'm not casting suspicion yet...just thinking aloud. We shall see what the day brings.

Rikae
05-31-2007, 06:34 PM
Clarification: By "it", I mean posting first, of course.

Rikae
05-31-2007, 06:36 PM
And Shasta's appearance with a laadi-daa post as well makes me wonder... basic wolf-stuff appearing without anything to leave for others in substance - and thence no one has a good reason to lynch him. Too easy?

I don't know if this is reasonable, Nogrod. I know how you like content-rich posts, but in-character banter in first posts is a bit of a WW tradition, is it not?

Meneltarmacil
05-31-2007, 06:38 PM
Welle, ye only waye I canne see to induce these Wolves to talke is to lynche ye moste unhelpfulle ones. I knowe, it soundeth bloody. However, if someone is silente withoute a goode reasonne, I don'te see what possible advantage this villager woulde provide.

No lynchings woulde actually be carried oute for unhelpfulnesse if ye villagers talke as muche as possible. So please do so!

(Note: I have a prior engagement in aboute an houre, whiche should take a few houres itselfe. I will be unable to speake untille quite late.)

Nogrod
05-31-2007, 06:38 PM
And how do you sugest that we force them to speak?
I've had this row a many times before and am not sure I wish to engage in it yet again... but defying the odds I will state this point of mine.

Lynching the non-active players is a good option for these first Days, at least with this large a game - unless there is a better option... So do not make the stupid arguments against this any more. There are situations when certain ideas are reasonable and others less so and principles should yield to practical situations every time. No one is supporting a rule of no exceptions. And I'm not saying that we should decide right here and now to lynch the one who has said the least toDay as the Day has barely started... No and No! *fed up with brainless responses on the beginning hours to this proposal* :)

So wait and see and decide then. But the principle is important.

If there is a reason to lynch someone who is active, let's lynch her/him, but if not then let's pick the ones who try to ride for free. Okay?

But creating the mood is pivotal! If we create a mood of "we will lynch the quiets" it will force the wolves to discuss rather than try their luck by just being quiet.

Try to see this point, please. Even once in my lifetime!

So if we have nothing better to go for, let's lynch those who don't contribute as they will become loads on us that will be heavier Day by Day. It's much easier to get rid of the free rider-wolves now than later. I've been in too many games where on Day four or something they are real menaces!

Meneltarmacil
05-31-2007, 06:39 PM
Oh, ande I agree that xyzzy's suspicione-casting maketh him looke like a Wolfe.

Shastanis Althreduin
05-31-2007, 06:41 PM
Phooey, Nogrod, that was just my first post. It's traditional to be in character! Anyhoof, I'm not sure I agree with the suspicion on Xyzzy... in other, less serious cases, it's traditional to jokingly cast suspicion on the first to post.

However, I've seen you about, as well. I'm not suspicious of you, yet. I don't feel that there's enough people talking to be able to cast any aspersions at this time.

Edit: X'ed with Menel, Nogrod, and Menel again.

Edit: I do agree with your point, though, Nogrod. Lynching those who contribute little, or nothing at all, would be the most beneficial to us, unless there's a good reason to lynch someone active. Forcing a wolf to speak up and discuss can lead to a disastrous mistake.

Nogrod
05-31-2007, 06:45 PM
it doesn't jibe with my (admittedly fallible) impression of Kath; and the post itself seemed somehow tense or tight.On a second look you maybe right. It's not Kath-like somehow, even though I still think Xyzzy's throw-away suspicion was the more suspicious looking...

I don't know if this is reasonable, Nogrod. I know how you like content-rich posts, but in-character banter in first posts is a bit of a WW tradition, is it not?You're right. But I have just tried to pick anything to show that things can be done differently than just saying "Hello, I'm here... and won't be anymore". Just take this in the overall context of my agenda and you see why I said this.

Okay. Good night for now. I'll be back later.

Isabellkya
05-31-2007, 06:57 PM
*waves to the others and then plops down in a chair*

Hiya everyone. I am Izzie the delegate from the village Kyaq. My father was supposed to make the journey, but he took a nasty fall when he was out hunting with his horse. So I was chosen to come in his place. If you don't mind I am mighty hungry from my journey, so I think I will go in search of some food to eat. Then I will return to discuss this problem which we all seem to have with these nasty werewolves.


*gets up and goes in search of some food*


(It is dinner time; hence the hunger.)

Nogrod
05-31-2007, 06:58 PM
Phooey, Nogrod, that was just my first post. It's traditional to be in character!No problem with that in fact. You have something like twenty hours to show that you can do other things as well... :)

As I said, the inaction or "indifferent" posting should be looked upon in the end of the Day, not now...

Rikae
05-31-2007, 06:59 PM
Well, I used to be against it on principle, but as I look at WW from my older and wiser perspective the "lynch the quiet ones" (or at least threaten to) strategy seems more and more sensible. I've seen too many quiet wolves coast to victory...besides, keeping up a certain level of helpfulness could be seen as a villager's duty.

Rikae
05-31-2007, 07:01 PM
*waves to the others and then plops down in a chair*

Hiya everyone. I am Izzie the delegate from the village Kyaq. My father was supposed to make the journey, but he took a nasty fall when he was out hunting with his horse. So I was chosen to come in his place. If you don't mind I am mighty hungry from my journey, so I think I will go in search of some food to eat. Then I will return to discuss this problem which we all seem to have with these nasty werewolves.


*gets up and goes in search of some food*


(It is dinner time; hence the hunger.)
Whaaa????

OK, roleplaying is one thing, but if I didn't know better, I'd think you were sending "wolf hints" - not being the one expected (in relation to SPM's narration); and being hungry...

xyzzy
05-31-2007, 07:14 PM
It was entirely flavor; I'm not seriously suspicious of someone for getting the first post!

A little jealous, though. :P

Rune Son of Bjarne
05-31-2007, 07:42 PM
Yes lynching quiet people have often been helpful, not always by getting wolves. . .actually we have lynched way more quiet innocents. The main problem with quiet people is that when the end of the game approaches you dare not vote for them as you do not have a clear picture of them and would rather kill someone you actually suspect.

Rune Son of Bjarne
05-31-2007, 07:46 PM
What I ment to say with the previouse post was that if we are going to lynch quiet people we should do it before too late in the game, so that we wont have the dilema of going after a suspect or a quiet person. (for me they are seldome the same)

Boromir88
05-31-2007, 08:01 PM
It pains me to do this, because I am going to feel so bad about it; with the long history between Menel and myself. But I got a bad feeling about him already.
Welle, ye only waye I canne see to induce these Wolves to talke is to lynche ye moste unhelpfulle ones.
I must profoundly object to this one. Every day is precious, we can't just waste them by voting off unhelpful villagers, that strategy will get us into trouble and put us in a tough vice towards the end. When is it that the wolves are the unhelpful ones in the village? All wolves talk and participate to varying degrees, all to varying degrees, but never is a wolf going to appear unhelpful. There are the quiet, lay low wolves, but there is a difference between being quiet and being unhelpful.

This whole proposal Menel gets me wonderin' about your identity sir knight. Our votes are the ordinary innocents only weapon against the wolves and we must not waste days by throwing our votes away for someone who albeit it is being unhelpful, but nevertheless someone you don't find all that suspicious of. Our votes are precious and the suggestion that we waste them doesn't sit right with me.

I don'te see what possible advantage this villager woulde provide.
ummm...their vote :rolleyes:

Your jump on xyzzy; Menel is also quite alarming...considering I really think Nogrod and you are making too much out of his first post.

not being the one expected (in relation to SPM's narration)~Rikae
I'm curious Rikae, because I have no clue what you're talking about. I am bad at picking up on clues out of the narration, so if you wouldn't mind pointing me out to the 'one not expected' in the narration, that would be great.

Rikae
05-31-2007, 08:24 PM
They have waylaid some of the travellers on their journey here, and assumed their identities.
Which, logically, would mean they WERE the ones expected, of course. But it is still rather eerie to have someone showing up saying "my father was supposed to come, but blah blah blah", and my first impulse was to think it was some sort of hint...possibly to or from a cobbler.

As for you, Boro, I'm surprised to see you taking the easy road of arguing against the LTQ (lynch the quiet) strategy and suspecting the one who suggests it. Surely you've seen enough quiet wolf victories...in the last two games alone, quiet wolves hung on until the end and were a thorn in our sides. A quiet player is just as likely as a vocal one to be lupine; and any lynch risks killing an ordo. In the absence of solid suspicions (which might not be absent after all by the end of the day) I'd rather see a quiet ordo (who is impossible to analyse) lynched than a vocal ordo who is helpful and easier to examine.

Shastanis Althreduin
05-31-2007, 08:55 PM
Except that, this being her first game and all, I'm not sure she knows exactly what a Cobbler is. ;)

Is there some prior history between Menel and Boro that I should know about?

Meneltarmacil
05-31-2007, 09:19 PM
Welle, I am backe. And to answer thy questione, Shasta, yea, my house and that of Boro have feuded for quite a while, each of us having been suspiciouse of ye other for divers reasones. He hath sent many a father of mine to ye grave, Wolfe or Innocente.

Boromir88, thou hast always had a bad feeling about me. What maketh this one more trustworthy than ye last fewe times? Ye reasone for lynching ye quiete woulde be to drawe ye wolves out into ye open. This is merely a strategy to force people to talke, and thus provide more material to analyze and more potential for Wolfe mistakes to emerge. If there is another way to force people to talke more oftenne, I cannotte see it.

Xyzzy's suddenne, randomme suspicione seemed like a very odd move, and even if it were a joke as he claimeth, it doth not clear his name. Accusing people jokingly on ye firste Day is oftenne a signe of a Wolfe.

Rikae
05-31-2007, 09:36 PM
Menel, please. The spelling. It. Hurts. My. Head. In character is nice, but all things in moderation!

Durelin
05-31-2007, 10:05 PM
Ahem.

"On behalf of Follywood, I'd like to point out that whether or not we should lynch those who are considered 'quiet' is rather an un-moot point, seeing as it's only the early half of Day 1, we're only 28 posts into the game, and only ten (now eleven) of the delegates have even arrived.

"I'd agree in an instant that our odds of catching a wolf among the now nine who are not yet present is pretty darn good, but...well, for one thing I don't want to be stuck with both Boro and Noggie left after such a purge."

Doureling slowly scans the crowd...and quickly does a double-take.

ohmigosh!!!!@!!1!!1!!!!one!!!

Quickly gathering back up her composure, the Follywood delegate exhales slowly.

"I didn't see you there, Kath..."

++Kath

Boromir88
05-31-2007, 10:07 PM
Which, logically, would mean they WERE the ones expected, of course. But it is still rather eerie to have someone showing up saying "my father was supposed to come, but blah blah blah", and my first impulse was to think it was some sort of hint...possibly to or from a cobbler.~Rikae
I see thank you. Isabell's post is completely in-character as you have remarked upon, but I think I'll wait for her to post some more. This is the first time I have been in her presense and I will reserve my judgement whether her first post was harmless in-character fun or some sort of wicked wolvish scheme.

It's not so much being against 'lynch the quiet' you can say its more of the manner Menel said lynch the 'unhelpful.' Yes there are bound to be quiet wolves and they are going to be tough to get out...but there is a difference between being unhelpful and keeping a low profile (being quiet).

I don't understand why any innocent would not want to help out and contribute but the way Menel says it looks evil...let me explain it this way.
Welle, ye only waye I canne see to induce these Wolves to talke is to lynche ye moste unhelpfulle ones.
The point being the wolves are not going to want to appear unhelpful. They are going to want to fit in, they are going be want to look helpful, not unhelpful. The way quiet wolves do fit in is pop in with a little comment once in a while that we all skim over and cast aside, which creates a low profile and we virtually just forget about him/her. Even if they are quiet they still are going to want to appear helpful and contributing, they just don't participate as much...because being quiet creates their low profile, and by appearing helpful (with the few posts they do make) this is what causes us all to forget about them (because nothing stands out in their posts they seem normal).

It's the way Menel phrases it...its all coming off to me as 'well if we can't find a wolf, lets waste a day and lynch someone who isn't helping.' I don't think we can just go and waste days so needlessly...our job is to lynch wolves not lynch an unhelpful villager to get the wolves talking. The wolves are going to be talking and contributing anyway, and some of the wolves are probably going to be amongst the quiet crowd, but that doesn't mean these quiet wolves aren't going to appear helpful and contributing.

Edit: x-ed with Durelin

Durelin
05-31-2007, 10:14 PM
Ah-heh-heh-hem.

"On behalf of Follywood, I'd like to point out that I cannot count. Indeed, the ancient art is lost to all of Follywood. It was the plague, you see. The severadigititus, to be precise. Yes, the very one. Rather took the ol' boot to that 'base ten' thing. That is to say, sabotaged."

Shastanis Althreduin
05-31-2007, 10:14 PM
Er.... Durelin, you do realize that that's now your final vote? Votes aren't retractable...

Rikae
05-31-2007, 10:23 PM
Well, Boro, I'm sorry. But I've about had it with fly-under-the-radar wolves, and I think it's high time the much debated strategy in question was put to the test. Unless I see some clear suspect emerge today, I will cast my vote for somebody whose participation is minimal. (Not necessarily the most "unhelpful"...but we shall see). And that's that.

Meneltarmacil
05-31-2007, 11:47 PM
If someone simply flieth under ye radar and poste a little to show that he/she is still arounde but offereth little of value (which thou callest "keeping a low profile"), Boromir88, that person is no better than a silent one. In facte, someone like that is probably even more likely to be a Wolfe. We wante ye Wolves to avoide such behavior, so that shoulde be just as lynch-worthy.

I am not saying that we must lynch all the quiet/unhelpful/whatever ones! Suche a tactic is simply a way of forcing ye Wolves into ye spotlighte, where they're more likely to make a mistake. I simply do not know any better way to force ye Wolves to stop the "stay quiet, posting just as much is necessary but little of value" attitude and post more often. Ye best lynching candidate is a Wolfe that posteth something that inadvertently giveth away too much. Lynching ye quiete/unhelpful ones is just a way to bring ye wolves to a pointe where they'll be more likely to make a mistake and be exposed for what they really are.

This olde knighte is going to bed. I shall see thee tomorrow, and willl vote rather early due to worke-related factors.

The Sixth Wizard
06-01-2007, 12:07 AM
[about later on in the game with quiet people]...you dare not vote for them as you do not have a clear picture of them and would rather kill someone you actually suspect.

In all the games I have played it was not a quiet one that was lynched first, but an innocent and valuable, quiet ones have tended to make it quite a way into the game. Perhaps we should lynch a quiet player for once? The Day 1 lynch is always a shot in the dark anyway...

Hmm, this is certainly interesting. Werewolves, eh? Well, that's interesting. I suppose we should start casting suspicion on each other now. I think one of these Werewolves is this Kath fellow. First one to speak up is probably trying to sound like he really dislikes Werewolf survival.

This doesn't sound as though Xyzzy is completely joking. And if you're not going to post much, why waste one on a joke? Perhaps this is indeed an over-enthusiastic Xyzzy-wolf? Then again, you can never tell much with Xyzzy...

++Kath

Stuh? That was a bit random. And votes are non-retractable! I'm getting the increasing impression that Durelin is rather spontanaeous at WereWolf.

And all I can say to Nogrod and Boro is "Fight, fight, fight, fight... :p

Thinlómien
06-01-2007, 02:17 AM
"Honorable chair, fellow delegates,
INSTRAW is highly concerned about the death of our honorable Secretary General, Sir Saucepan. INSTRAW strongly urges all member states to take action in order to investigate this terrible murder and arrest the killers. Thank you."

(So much for nostalgia...)

~*~

*surprisesurprise* Here's one more supporter of "lynch someone you can't form a picture about because of his/her constant absence if you don't have a (good) reason to lynch a louder person/ a contributor"-tactics. *waves*

~*~

I must say I'm glad Nogrod's back in ww - it really refreshed me after seeing a few chatty one-liner posts to see the form of his familiar, lengthy post...! :D Eventhough a bit hasty when talking about Shasta, I see him as a reasonable villager and it would grieve me to lynch him toDay (unless, of course, he does anything very wolvish).

Rikae seems very innocent - she has done one thing that made me once confident about someone's innocence... Thogh she might have played in that game herself and remember my reasoning and thus do it.... hmmm... For now I'm inclined to believe she's honest (maybe only because she's contributive, though)...

I have no clear opinion about Menel because my brain always uncosciously turns to the "ignore"-function when I see more than one sentence in his writing style.... (No offense Menel, this just happens.... :))

Durelin makes me wonder....but I guess only an ordo would do something like that even though without pasuing I'd love to add that Durelin can do particularly anything so never mind. :D

Boro is giving me those infamous bad vibes... Though not very much atm and I don't want to judge him only based on gut-feeling since his posts are okay with me... (Even though I somewhat disagree with him.)

Shasta, Sixth and Kath all seem very normal for themselves but that doesn't prove anything.

Xyzzy is hasty enough to make me suspect him a little. I have nothing to say about Isabellkya this far.

~*~

I should get my net access home working toDay (yay!) but I can't count on it (as there might be some problem) so I might have to vote very early toDay (two or three hours from now). A pity the votes aren't retractable... (Yes, you got it right... I miss retrackies...)

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 03:27 AM
Is it just me or do we not know how many wolves are even out there?
No, we don't know that - unless Sauce hints about it in the narrations, which I guess (and hope) might happen. But this is such a big game (20 players) that I think we shouldn't rule out the possibility of four wolves, or some other nasty things.


Except that, this being her first game and all, I'm not sure she knows exactly what a Cobbler is.
Unless she is one.
I don't remember if she has said anywhere that this is her first game, but if it is, I don't think a newbie-wolf would, or even could, be brave enough to try to catch the eye of the cobbler, when there's a risk that someone else notices it too.

I don't see anything that suspicious about xyzzy. I mean, I remember the game when he was a wolf (I didn't play in it, but being a friend of Lommy's, I was expected to know what was happening), and as far as I remember he was less eye-catching then. And as he said, I don't think he would seriously suspect anyone just because of being the one to post first.

But of course, this is the first Day, and everybody is searching for even the tiniest hints of werewolvishness on others.

I think lynching a quiet one rather than someone much contributing is a good idea - at least on Day 1 (and we must also keep in mind that there will be no modkills). By toMorrow we have this Day's voting records and the wolf kill, which will hopefully help us to form a clearer picture of who the wolves might be.

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 03:37 AM
Yes, I agree, let's lynch all those quiet ones. Starting with that there Feanor *points*. Why does she say nothing? Why is she painting us?

In other news, I think I'll revert to my strategy of voting for somebody almost at random today, as we have so little to go on. I'll need to look over who I think is innocent and exclude them from the list though; that list of likely-innocents is likely to include people who are loud.

The Sixth Wizard
06-01-2007, 03:46 AM
Well, we know Fea has played WereWolf before, so perhaps she is just laying low deliberately... But that was a bit jumpy Shorty. We have to use SOME strategy with quiet peeps, don't we? I don't know what kind of strategy, but something.

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 03:48 AM
I guess Fea said she's moving toDay or something, so maybe she isn't laying low deliberately. :)

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 04:06 AM
Well, we know Fea has played WereWolf before, so perhaps she is just laying low deliberately... But that was a bit jumpy Shorty. We have to use SOME strategy with quiet peeps, don't we? I don't know what kind of strategy, but something.How about the "lynch all the quiet people alphabetically starting randomly at F" strategy? :D

I guess Fea said she's moving toDay or something, so maybe she isn't laying low deliberately.Ah. So she did. Never mind... I will try to get her lynched tomorrow instead.


For the record, those seeming innocent to me at the moment include:

Noggy - sensible views about lynching the quiet.
Boro - sticks to his views in, what I feel, is genuine earnestness.
Rune - I think he speaks sensibly about lynching the quiet earlier rather than later.

These three will be exempt from my list when my random vote is generated.

I'm not feeling too happy about Shastanis - I do agree with your point, though, Nogrod. Lynching those who contribute little, or nothing at all, would be the most beneficial to us, unless there's a good reason to lynch someone active. Forcing a wolf to speak up and discuss can lead to a disastrous mistake.Where on earth did that random sentence come from? It doesn't make sense to me, nor did Nogrod say any such thing.

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 04:22 AM
Where on earth did that random sentence come from? It doesn't make sense to me, nor did Nogrod say any such thing.
I understood he meant a Wolf can make a disastrous mistake that should reveal him/her, if forced to speak. That would make more sense.

Thinlómien
06-01-2007, 05:16 AM
But this is such a big game (20 players) that I think we shouldn't rule out the possibility of four wolves, or some other nasty things.If the evil team consists of just three wolves, or three wolves and a cobbler, you can eat my head. I don't think Sauce'd make such an unbalanced game.

I should maybe be going soon and it would be most annoying to vote right now. I mean, I don't suspect anybody really, and if I come back, something might have changed and then there might have been a good reason to vote somebody... ... ...

The only ones that I suspect even a tiny bit are xyzzy and Boro - and the evidence against either of them is ridiculous. AND I'd hate to lose Boro on Day1 if he's innocent. (And actually even if he's a wolf or whatever. The game would be less intriguing.)

So now I'm debating if I should vote xyzzy (argh) or just not vote right now (argh).

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 05:21 AM
Mithalwen *offers her apologies for her late arrival* .. I may only have time to read through the notes of the discussion just now.

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 05:32 AM
While Nogrod is right in objecting to Xyzzy's words...I'd say pointing out that casting suspicion on the first to speak is in itself, at the best, badly reasoned, and at worst, wolfish....


I would just mention that in the ancient history of the werewolf plagues that have afflicted communities, it was found on a few occasions that a wolf had been the first speaker ..eager perhaps to influence opinion away from themselves.

It is a bit routine to have "Lynch Boromir" as the default setting? He so often gives out "vibes" and turns out to be an innocent stirring discussion or a gifted biding his time... certainly it is generally more useful to the village to keep talkers rather than quiet folk if push comes to shove. But for me it is far too early to think about making choices - especially since in the circumstance I will not be able to get my decision ratified by my commune with the two-thirds majority usually required on matters that concern external affairs....

However I need perhaps to read forward from the start rather than backwards from now to get a true picture.

Thinlómien
06-01-2007, 05:36 AM
Hmmm.... I guess I won't vote now and if I can't get online myself I can vote by asking Noggie or Agan to post my vote in case SPM agrees with it...

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 05:47 AM
I understood he meant a Wolf can make a disastrous mistake that should reveal him/her, if forced to speak. That would make more sense.Oh... that does make sense! Thanks Aganzir. Wouldn't want to lycch somebody due to semantics...

So now I'm debating if I should vote xyzzy (argh) or just not vote right now (argh).Or use a random number generator?

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 05:50 AM
Kath: I know I had been thinking about the number of the wolves myself, too (probably everyone has); but then asking it would make a nice cover for a wolf, and that's what I thought when I read Kath's first post.

xyzzy: There's not much to go on, but I don't consider him suspicious just because of his "suspicion" on Kath.

Shasta: He has said nothing that should have made me worry about him, but I get a bad feeling of his posts.

Menel: I agree with him about forcing the wolves to talk. But lynching ye unhelpfulle - I don't know. I see the logic, but I don't know if it's wise to force the wolves to be helpful, because they won't actually help us - on the contrary, a wolf making analyses etc. is far from useful; they twist everything and mislead us, and when the wolf is dead, what can one make out of the analysis?
Anyway I think he's probably innocent.

Rune: He speaks sense, and not things I think a wolf would say.

Nogrod: At the moment I feel quite safe about him (though I still think I would never catch a wolf-Nogrod). His suggestion of lynching the quiet ones is good, I think, and as he's been reasonable and vocal, I'm inclined to consider him innocent.

Rikae: It's hard to say anything about her.

Isabellkya: Not much to go on, but I fail to see any "wolf hints".

Boro: I've no idea, but I don't think lynching him toDay would be a good thing to do. He's just so neutral.

Durelin: Amusing, but not much to say. I don't know what I should think of her vote.

Sixth: Neutral.

Lommy: Innocentish.

tgwbs: I've never played with him, and don't know his style. There's something slightly suspicious in him, but I don't know if it's just his style, so I probably won't vote for him toDay.

Mith: I will probably send this before she's managed to say anything more.

Possibly innocent:
Menel
Rune
Nogrod
Lommy

Possibly guilty:
Kath
Shasta
tgwbs

No idea:
xyzzy
Rikae
Isabellkya
Boro
Durelin
Sixth
Mith

Have not spoken yet:
Mormegil
Gil-Galad
Volo
Legate
Fea

I have no idea who to vote yet (luckily there's still plenty of time left). I don't think anyone is that suspicious. I guess I'll vote someone silent.

edit: xed since Mith's second post.

Thinlómien
06-01-2007, 05:51 AM
Or use a random number generator?You know that I'm not for random things or matemathical theories... :D

Anyway, now I go. Let's hope I'll be back in the late afternoon.

edit: xed with Agan

Volo
06-01-2007, 05:52 AM
Sorry for coming a bit late, it was a long way after all. My name is Asfaras of Itgets. Oh, and in case you're wondering, it is fine for the folks of Itgets to have hair all over their body.

Thoughts go as such: Don't lynch the unhelpful ones as they are probably just confused innocents. Don't lynch the quiet ones as they probably have a reason for it or just enjoy that playing style.
Where do we get by this? Pretty much nowhere, but I do think that the "unhelpful" are more probably innocent. I have too mixed feelings on the quiet ones...
Having that said, the image of Menel jumps in my mind. But I have seen him fall too early so many times, that I'll avoid voting him, especially as he is suspicious even when not evil. So I'd like Boromir to consider this too.

Lommy, would you quit for once this voting of Xyzzy for no real reason. :rolleyes:


EDIT: Xd with everything since #47

Volo
06-01-2007, 05:54 AM
Sorry, forget what I said in my last post. Xyzzy does, for once, look suspicious.

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 05:58 AM
But this is such a big game (20 players) that I think we shouldn't rule out the possibility of four wolves, or some other nasty things.~Aganzir
Or even the return of the great bear. That could be just as bad as an additional wolf. I've heard tales of the Beornings populating the area...dangerous men they are.

Mith has my alarm going as well.

it was found on a few occasions that a wolf had been the first speaker ..eager perhaps to influence opinion away from themselves.
Now Mith often does say this. I've seen her say it countless amounts of times, and she's right a few times the first poster has been a wolf. But, that means the vast majority of the time this is not true. I think it's better to oepn up the field of suspects a bit and reasonable to say there might be a wolf in the first 5-6 people who posted, to get their claws in early. To limit it to the first poster (and Kath has already received a vote) looks a little wolfy, Mith.

Ye best lynching candidate is a Wolfe that posteth something that inadvertently giveth away too much.
I concede that our good knight has a good point there.

Edit: x-ed with everyone since Aganzir's post

Volo
06-01-2007, 06:30 AM
We, the race of Vehade, have a, possibly peculiar to you, view of the world: We think that what we feel is the complete oppisite of the truth. Obeying the law of oppositism we have so far been only happy.

Why do I tell you this sacred wisdom? Because I am afraid, afraid for my life.

The Witch Burner Nogrod so reminds me of the Wolf Nogrod that I feel like suspecting him. But, as the wise say, the feeling goes wrong. And so it has gone every time I suspected Nogrod, feeling has gone astray and he managed to end up innocent.

I shall not vote for him, for given reason.

Kath
06-01-2007, 06:40 AM
OOC: Listen guys I'm really sorry but my day has just become unexpectedly busy and this is the last chance I'm going to have to be online.

Therefore I will vote as abstaining is never helpful but as I've only had time to skim through the thread I really don't have much to go on. My vote goes to:

++RIKAE

She seems very testy for it being so early in the game. Could be just a defense of her ideas which do seem to be being rather heavily pounded by Boro, but then continuous defense of ideas rather than coming up with anything truly constructive could be wolvish.

Volo
06-01-2007, 06:55 AM
And before anybody goes to accuse Kath: That, if anything, is her style!

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 07:07 AM
Unless anybody comes up with anything interesting in the next hour, my random number generating machine has come up with the following:

Ran#x16+1 = 3.288

Meaning, of course, that durelin will get my vote.

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-01-2007, 07:09 AM
Hi all. I'm here, reading fast. I'll let you know what I think once I catch up.

Meneltarmacil
06-01-2007, 07:10 AM
Welle, I am voting:

++xyzzy

He is quite silente for ye moste parte, and what he did say was pretty suspiciouse.

Volo
06-01-2007, 07:18 AM
Rikae also feels like the Wolf Rikae. So, a reason not to vote for her then... :rolleyes:

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 07:29 AM
Volo, is this what you meant when you warned us in the Admin thread that your logic will be weird? Because I find this weird, if not even suspicious. :rolleyes:

How can you think someone is innocent if you have a feeling s/he is a wolf?

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 07:34 AM
Greetings, all folks. I am the DeLegate of Amon Lanc, whose people live now under the shadow of the Enemy, near the gates of his very citadel of darkness, yet they are unbeaten and still free, like the white doves of peace flying under the horrible stormy clouds. For this, I am not surprised by the terror that came upon this village. I see that the discussion of how to stop this threat has already started, so I'm diving in.

First, I think there's been quite a lot of speculation about "quiet ones" and "not quiet ones". Though I have experience from very recent past that indeed these were the quiet ones who were a threat, I will be careful about not getting into the other extreme, that is, starting bloodthirstingly killing all who say nothing or a little. It is true however, that in later time of the game, I will be for lynching people like this, because you'd say they had enough time to speak and they didn't. I mean (as someone already said here before) that on the first Days, I'll back from doing something like that (some people might not even get much online, e.g. Fea today). However, as three or four days pass, I'd also focus on the silent ones, because if they wanted, they could speak. I think it was Rune who already mentioned it here somewhere and I think it's a good opinion (even if it were not good to lynch the quiet ones, when this is said now, people can act according to it and if they don't, they can't blame those who lynch them, if you understand what I mean). On this point only I would point that Isabellkya posted just a in-character post, saying she'd be back (or so I understood it) and then disappeared for good, which is sort of, you know... irresponsible? (at least)

Now to the other debates running here. I think xyzzy's accusation of Kath, whatever hasty it might be, was a good start if nothing else. Personally I think it's not to be classificated rightaway as wolfish, because xyzzy has never acted much and this might just be his style (though speaking of him, I'd like to say that I see he promised to post more and still there is not that much from him).
What I mean by saying it was a good start: because something like that, even though it's not supported much, is at least doing something and not just talking about nothing. Because, after all, there might be some truth on the first poster being a wolf, why not, it can be a good "hiding in the light". Of course then, xyzzy's move might have been just that one of a Wolf waiting for a person he can accuse, but from the little I know of him, I think he can be bolder than that (accusing like this surely brings attention). For the time being, I'm not for building anything against xyzzy, and not even for kath, whose behavior I find "normal" (without anything suspicious).

Who might seem a little bit suspicious to me is Nogrod, or also Meneltarmacil, "ye olde knighte". Of course Nogrod generally speaks much, why not, he's one of the stable "vocal" players. However, this time he seems a little bit sneaky, like a creeping shadow accusing here and there with thought-through intention... (that's the imagination I get from it). Normally he is more vocal and his posts seem sincere. This time I get the feeling it's somewhat slippery.

And Menel...
If someone simply flieth under ye radar and poste a little to show that he/she is still arounde but offereth little of value (which thou callest "keeping a low profile"), Boromir88, that person is no better than a silent one. In facte, someone like that is probably even more likely to be a Wolfe. We wante ye Wolves to avoide such behavior, so that shoulde be just as lynch-worthy.
...he seems, I think, misusing the silence too much. Cf. what I said above about it. So whatever nice ye olde knighte be as charactere, I don't like ye looke of his behavioure.

Other things. I don't understand (as probably many) Durelin's vote. Just a random shot or what? As someone said here, we have no retractions, so what?

Lommy by the way seems also a little un-natural from the structure of her post. But that may be just a feeling. Other people who were spoken about loudly here I feel quite good.

One question to Volo: is that what you meant by saying that you'll be behaving weird here? Doing the opposite than how you feel? Trying to see if your senses always deceive you? :D
(EDIT: x-ed with Aganzir, who asked exactly the same)

That would be it, basically, for now. Will be back later.

Rikae
06-01-2007, 07:39 AM
I don't think a newbie-wolf would, or even could, be brave enough to try to catch the eye of the cobbler, when there's a risk that someone else notices it too.I wouldn't be so sure. I did just that as a newbie wolf myself.

Honesty, as I read over the thread I was composing my own post in my head, and had decided long before I got to Kath's vote that I would say that she was the one who felt most evil to me. Now, seeing that she voted for me, this might appear to be vengence; but what can I say...there was something about her posts that feels very calculated and very tense. It's not much, but it was the strongest hint of wolfishness I had seen so far.
I also don't know why she claims that I'm defending my ideas instead of being constructive. I didn't think I was doing that...or being testy for that matter. I simply don't feel like beating around in the bush this time around.
Actually, though, Kath's somewhat defensive response makes me suspect her less; but I am still uneasy about her.

Xyzzy could be worth voting for today. Mind you, I don't think he's done anything overtly suspicious; but Day1's usually end in the lynching of an innocent who is either quite talkative or behaving erratically - and these will be the very people who will be easier to read later on. I admit, I am on principle opposed to the "I'm quiet, take it or leave it" attitude Xyzzy displays, and if he's a wolf, he might just coast to victory while the rest of us kill those who make more noise. If he's innocent, at least his death means a more active ordo won't die in his stead.

One other thing...I have a feeling Lommy's buttering me up. Watch it, girlie, I haven't forgotten how you tried to steal my man! :p

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-01-2007, 08:12 AM
never is a wolf going to appear unhelpful
Never say never, dear. And never forget who you play with. There are a half dozen on this moot list whose potential for 'never' isn't something I'll assume about.

Here's one more supporter of "lynch someone you can't form a picture about because of his/her constant absence if you don't have a (good) reason to lynch a louder person/ a contributor"-tactics.
I agree. If within a couple days, you still have no clue who a certain player is, I think you should have no real reservations about mercilessly martyring them to the cause. In a game with evidence based entirely on language, people who shirk in their ability to use it are a waste of time and energy. In chess, you let the pawns go first.

Yes, I agree, let's lynch all those quiet ones. Starting with that there Feanor *points*. Why does she say nothing? Why is she painting us?
Aww, I missed you too, darling. Would you like to be painted in almost-ripe-banana green? Or would you prefer blue jay blue? I'm a happy impressionist, so you might not recognize yourself by the time I'm done, but if you're lucky, I won't paint you with fangs. Give me reason to, mind you, and I'll paint a very pretty picture of you savaging the moot. I'm withholding opinion on this matter for a little while.

Well, we know Fea has played WereWolf before, so perhaps she is just laying low deliberately... But that was a bit jumpy Shorty. We have to use SOME strategy with quiet peeps, don't we? I don't know what kind of strategy, but something.
As I'd already mentioned, I spent yesterday moving from school to home for the summer. And while I'd happily lay low deliberately, yesterday wasn't intentional. Look me up if I seem ridiculously unhelpful later on.

I guess Fea said she's moving toDay or something, so maybe she isn't laying low deliberately.
Ooh! Somebody beat me to it. It's nice seeing people remember my words. Thanks, Aganzir.

On a side note, if you haven't realized it, I'm writing this post in chronological unedited order as I read what I've missed. So if anything is redundant or if I change my mind, it's for that reason.

Ah. So she did. Never mind... I will try to get her lynched tomorrow instead.
My thanks for your generosity.

It is a bit routine to have "Lynch Boromir" as the default setting?
As a rule, I've noticed that it's routine to have "Lynch ____" as default, wherein the person whose sneakiness you most respect gets to fill in the blank. If the phantom was playing, I'd campaign for his death first day because he can't be trusted. Savvy?

In this game, the list of people I have no natural trust for (based experiencially) are:

Mormegil
Nogrod
Boromir88
Kath

And myself, but I don't count.

They would fit into a routine lynch campaign even if only for the reason that I know from watching them that their seeming is often at odds with their being. Knowing they could fool you if they wanted to doesn't make for restful moot-nights.

Still, as of right now, I have no real suspicion of any of them.

TBC--

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-01-2007, 08:23 AM
Fresh Snow:
Nogrod
Boromir88
Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Kath
the guy who be short
Rune Son of Bjarne

Blood-stained:
Mormegil (perpetually so, said with love)
Mithalwen (because I say so, also with love)

Shrug-worthy:
Gil-Galad
Shastanis Althreduin
Aganzir
Rikae
Durelin
Volo
Meneltarmacil
The Sixth Wizard
Isabellkya

++XYZZY

Because I have nobody better to vote for at the moment.

Rune Son of Bjarne
06-01-2007, 08:38 AM
Interesting I too have no trust for Mormegil . . .:cool:

Anyways I see that a small case is building up around Menel and if it continues I would not be suprised to see him lynched soon. I however will not join the cause just yet as I have a history of finding Menel suspiciouse, advocating his death, only to find him innocent. Of course this could be the time he is guilty, but just for now I shall not be voting for him.

I could actually say the same thing about Boro, i always find him a bit suspicouse. The main difference is that sometimes I am right and he is furry.

Anyways I will have to vote soon and it is going to be a pretty random vote as I have noticed anything worthy of a vote yet.

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 09:07 AM
I think there's been quite a lot of speculation about "quiet ones" and "not quiet ones". Though I have experience from very recent past that indeed these were the quiet ones who were a threat, I will be careful about not getting into the other extreme, that is, starting bloodthirstingly killing all who say nothing or a little. It is true however, that in later time of the game, I will be for lynching people like this, because you'd say they had enough time to speak and they didn't. I mean (as someone already said here before) that on the first Days, I'll back from doing something like that (some people might not even get much online, e.g. Fea today). However, as three or four days pass, I'd also focus on the silent ones, because if they wanted, they could speak. I think it was Rune who already mentioned it here somewhere and I think it's a good opinion.Now then... What you're saying seems to be the opposite of what ole Rune said. He said kill the quiet now, because it may be too late when we get in a few days. This means we can kill the loud people later on. I like this idea. You, on the other hand, advocate killing the quiet later on, which I think is a bit of a bad idea. Later on, we'll still have very little idea about the quiet people, but we'll have formed strong opinions about the loud. We would therefore probably end up, as ever, lynching the loud.

Not accusing you, just pointing this out.

And in the vein of killing the quiet,

++DURELIN

Volo
06-01-2007, 09:32 AM
Volo, is this what you meant when you warned us in the Admin thread that your logic will be weird? Because I find this weird, if not even suspicious.

How can you think someone is innocent if you have a feeling s/he is a wolf?
Exactly this. I think somebody whom I think Wolf is innocent, because usually they are innocent.
One question to Volo: is that what you meant by saying that you'll be behaving weird here? Doing the opposite than how you feel? Trying to see if your senses always deceive you?
Yes to you too. Last - and not only last - game I was so far from catching the Wolves as possible, except after I was already dead. ;)
Who might seem a little bit suspicious to me is Nogrod, or also Meneltarmacil, "ye olde knighte". Of course Nogrod generally speaks much, why not, he's one of the stable "vocal" players. However, this time he seems a little bit sneaky, like a creeping shadow accusing here and there with thought-through intention... (that's the imagination I get from it). Normally he is more vocal and his posts seem sincere. This time I get the feeling it's somewhat slippery.
Yup, that's the one. But I'll laugh if Nogrod and Menel are Wolves, again. :D

What tgwbs said there is true. So, I'll vote for Xyzzy is we don't find a better alternative. After all, he'll probably remain a mystery for as long as he's here... :rolleyes:

Rune Son of Bjarne
06-01-2007, 09:36 AM
Durelin is always a mystery to me so she will recive my vote.

++Durelin

(I am voting this early because I have to go to work soon and wont be back until 30 min after the deadline)

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 09:42 AM
Now then... What you're saying seems to be the opposite of what ole Rune said. He said kill the quiet now, because it may be too late when we get in a few days. This means we can kill the loud people later on. I like this idea. You, on the other hand, advocate killing the quiet later on, which I think is a bit of a bad idea. Later on, we'll still have very little idea about the quiet people, but we'll have formed strong opinions about the loud. We would therefore probably end up, as ever, lynching the loud.
Ah-ha! Indeed, I must've misread it somehow. Okay, in that case I'm opposing to it. Though I must say, as I read it now, it's a good idea in the fact that if we lynch someone quiet early, we'll be "right" to do it. I can't forget that I said something very similar in my first game when I was a wolf (I said: "lynching a silent innocent is ok because he is worth nothing for the village"), however, interesting thing is that all the village was after me because of saying it (well, those who remember it know it wasn't much of a big case, but what I want to say is that it created a wave of disagreement. Now here there are several people saying basically the same, and everyone thinks it okay? Just meditating on this, because, in fact, I agree with that - I was honest in this opinion even back then: But why now, with many people being the same, no one protests vehemently against it, as they did before?)
Now back to the topic - I think, actually, lynching quiet ones is a good thing to do if you have no better suspect. Especially at the beginning, when the voting is (let's confess it) quite random. Basically said (and once again, it sounds quite cruel): "Even if we lynch an innocent, it isn't such a loss, it's his fault, he should have been more vocal." Your thoughts are logical on this. But how comes suddenly everyone thinks it is a good idea and no one protests? If it were such a great idea, why didn't everyone do it in the games before? And, mainly, note that from my experience before, I was a Wolf when I adviced that. Why I said it then? Because all the wolves were vocal. And with players we have this time ( :rolleyes: ) I wouldn't wonder if all the wolves were vocal. And, if you once start this strategy (of voting out quiet ones), the wolves, unless they are completely stupid, will speak up. Of course it will force them to participate more, thus, be more vulnerable to be caught lying or something like that. But that wouldn't compare with killing quiet innocents, who may even be Gifted. And the biggest problem I see with this is, as I said in my earlier post, that we might accidentally lynch a quiet innocent, who had the bad luck not to get to the computer on Day 1, for whatever reason; or even didn't have chance to speak up yet because his timing is bad, and some people who have to leave their computers already have to vote now, and just because he arrives five minutes after them they classify him as "non-posting" and vote him. If anything, I'd leave this strategy on Day 1 out. It's in nothing better than voting for a vocal player because he seems fishy to you based on several Day 1 posts.
EDIT: x-ed with Volo&Rune

Volo
06-01-2007, 09:43 AM
Well, I'd rather vote Xyzzy than Durelin as she is proven a great player. Give her a chance! :rolleyes:

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Yup, that's the one. But I'll laugh if Nogrod and Menel are Wolves, again. :D:
What do you mean by "again"?

What tgwbs said there is true. So, I'll vote for Xyzzy is we don't find a better alternative. After all, he'll probably remain a mystery for as long as he's here... :rolleyes:
Hmm, I think xyzzy was sort of more active toDay than he usually is :D (well, mainly by the vote for Kath) As I said, I don't like lynching the quiet - btw why don't you lynch morm then? It will be the most logical, because he didn't appear yet! (<=this is a joke, of course, but it has logic in it: if I were for the idea you present here, I'd lynch him, since he didn't say anything, point.)

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 10:20 AM
Never say never, dear. And never forget who you play with.~Fea
When I say 'never' I mean I would bet the farm. And afterall by your own admission how do you know what's going on in this complex head of mine? Maybe I'm using reverse-psychology, maybe I'm not, maybe I'm setting a trap...or maybe I'm only making the wolves believe that I'm setting a trap? Or maybe I only want to make the wolves think that I'm thinking about setting a trap. You get in their heads and get them doubting, aye, make them as lost to knowing our thoughts as we are to knowing who they are.

Well Delegate from Amon Lanc, I wouldn't say no one is objecting. I raised my concerns...though now as staunch as no doubt you have done. But, nevertheless I addressed some problems and hence when one who propsoses this idea (Menel) is my primary target.

I'm much more in line with Nogrod's thinking:
If there is a reason to lynch someone who is active, let's lynch her/him, but if not then let's pick the ones who try to ride for free. Okay?
I would like to add the qualifier of let it not just be a randomly selected quiet person, but at least someone who we get a wierd feeling about.

The reason I am suspicious of Menel, is because it came off to me as if he was saying something almost completely different from Nogrod. And that was let's just start lynching unhelpful people to make the wolves talk. When we recklessly charge forward with one consensus and plan as far as what to do, it's far too easy for the wolves to jump on and manipulate what's going on.

So, my proposal is, let everyone do whatever the heck they want and go after the people they find to be suspicious. Umm...isn't that basically how it's happened all these years of cursed villages? To have one plan of 'we will lynch the quiet to make the wolves talk' the wolve no exactly what we will be doing and therefor it is much easier for them to manipulate what is going to happen. Not only that but it puts us in a tough bind at the end when we wasted away all these days of what could have been quality wolf-hunting and don't have any more days to waste!

I think the risk is far too great. Not only will the wolves be able to manipulate who gets lynched (as they will know this 'plan') but it seems mostly random, so there is a minute chance to find a wolf and we have no idea how many gifted we have to help us, so there may be a greater chance that we whack a gifted (as Legate brings up).

So, yes, I say each person do whatever the heck they want, just say whatever the heck they want. What's wrong with doing it the old fashion way? Pah, I spit on all these whacked out crackpot plans that is creating a wide village consenus.

Volo
06-01-2007, 10:35 AM
What do you mean by "again"?
Just a WW from ago. The one modded by Glirdan with both Menel and Nogrod as Wolves. My first game.

Hmm, I think xyzzy was sort of more active toDay than he usually is :D (well, mainly by the vote for Kath) As I said, I don't like lynching the quiet - btw why don't you lynch morm then? It will be the most logical, because he didn't appear yet! (<=this is a joke, of course, but it has logic in it: if I were for the idea you present here, I'd lynch him, since he didn't say anything, point.)
The logic is not about the players whom we know to contribute. Though it sure would be nice if Durelin and Mormegil would speak up!

Rikae's accusation of Izzie is very wierd and from my perspective a good cover for a Wolf (remembering my own Wolf-game). There are loads of ways to relay information and anyway, f.ex. Nogrod talk could be as message-filled as Izzie's...

Boro feels innocent because of his opinion about LTQ (lynch the quiet) and how he phrases it. Though you never know with Boro, and my logic telling me vote for him...

Aganzir feels evil and helpful, so probably is good. :)

tgwbs feels very good and helpful, so could be evil.
(I don't want to vote either of the two now.)

Volo
06-01-2007, 10:35 AM
Hmmm.... I guess I won't vote now and if I can't get online myself I can vote by asking Noggie or Agan to post my vote in case SPM agrees with it... :(

Or even the return of the great bear. That could be just as bad as an additional wolf. I've heard tales of the Beornings populating the area...dangerous men they are.
You the Bear? :rolleyes: The role is new to me, what is it? A Shade-type creature? Or a cobbler with a kill? Or just a plain lonely Wolf?

Gah, Legate, your text is nearly as porridge as mine text... Much more confusing than your usual talk that I very much respect for it's clearness. ("Enter" not working? If yes, ok. If no, I'll vote for you to climb out of the porridge :p )

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 10:50 AM
I am back and intend to read through properly (and in the correct order this time )- find out who has been opressing whom...

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=Volo]:(

the Bear? :rolleyes: The role is new to me, what is it? A Shade-type creature? Or a cobbler with a kill? Or just a plain lonely Wolf?

QUOTE]

It seems my role is historian as much as anything so far - but once again as" a point of order" , the werebear in earlier skirmishes was effectively a lone wolf. They had a kill of their own and they only won if they were the sole survivor.


Oh yes the beginning .... :rolleyes:

Durelin
06-01-2007, 11:06 AM
Oh stop it, Runie, tugwubs. You're making me blush.

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 12:17 PM
Well I have read through and considering how large the village is, not a lot has been said. If for once, the "lynch the quiet if you can't do anything better " that usually I am opposed for suggesting is now in favour we are going to have a lot of choice....

Morm and Gil haven't spoken. Isabellkya has made her slightly odd first post (but this has been already commented on as have most of the things I have noted :( ), many have near average 3/4/5 post counts. Rikae and Volo have posted double that but seem to be the short, "talking to self posts" that can happen when you are the only person around (or posting perhaps to be more precise).

I have had a look at the narrative and the only firm conclusion I drew was that there is more than one gifted "those among you", and more than one wolf - probably more than two since, I think it would be unusual and technically incorrect ot use some when referring to two. Two wolves in such a large village would be suprising but there is a precedent *cough Fea cough*.

There doesn't seem to be any clear indication of other roles eg werebear / cobbler but that doesn't mean there aren't, and there may be characters who come into play later in the proceedings such as a mythomaniac or cursed. However there is possibly an unclear suggestion. When Sauce says : you must choose each day one of your number to face death and continue doing so until you have found all of the murderous fiends. Some among you who are innocent will die at the hands of their companions, I am not sure if he means that the innocent will be lynched by other innocents, and it should have read your companions (to my picky linguistician's brain) - or that the "their" does indeed refer to the "fiends" of the previous sentence" some innocents will be killed by associates of the wolves but not the wolves themselves. I am probably making something out of nothing here but theoretically that could be a hint at some sort of werebear. The morning will bring clarification if there is a higher than normal death toll overnight.

Now for the actual player posts.

Boro, I don't suspect Kath for posting first - I was merely pointing out that it has happened. If I had read the posts sequentially rather than in a random skimming, I would have seen that , Shasta had already pointed out that this was a traditional prejudice. Kath is far too sophisticated a player for that one to be relevant. However, Kath, in general, may be my "sneaky player " (Fea I love you too ). But a higher priority is looking at those those hasty votes.

Sometimes people do have to vote quickly and on first day (noone has said they hate them yet! ) , a quick retractable vote may be in character or an attempt to provoke a reaction but a quick fixed vote hmm would be quite attention seeking for a wolf, so much so that it might be a blind.

.... to be continued .... I don't want to risk losing such a long post.

Rikae
06-01-2007, 12:28 PM
Boro[/b]]I think the risk is far too great. Not only will the wolves be able to manipulate who gets lynched (as they will know this 'plan') but it seems mostly random, so there is a minute chance to find a wolf and we have no idea how many gifted we have to help us, so there may be a greater chance that we whack a gifted (as Legate brings up).
Whaaaaa? If the wolves do manipulate who is lynched, that wolfish manipulation will be a clear trail to them tomorrow.

And as for lynching gifteds, I don't see why we would be more likely to do so by lynching a quiet player than a loud one.

Rikae
06-01-2007, 12:32 PM
I have had a look at the narrative and the only firm conclusion I drew was that there is more than one gifted "those among you", and more than one wolf - probably more than two since, I think it would be unusual and technically incorrect ot use some when referring to two. Two wolves in such a large village would be suprising but there is a precedent *cough Fea cough*.
Surely you err in your calculations. I have never heard of a village with only two wolves.

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 12:37 PM
Okay then. I just read this thing through and must agree with Mith that not a lot has been said... :(

To begin with here's the actual voting so far.

Durelin -> Kath
Kath -> Rikae
Menel -> Xyzzy
Fea -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2)
tgwbs -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin1)
Rune -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2)

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 12:43 PM
Surely you err in your calculations. I have never heard of a village with only two wolves.
Fea's game had a lot of players but only two - and no gifted. Unless my memory plays tricks...

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 12:53 PM
I am not sure if he means that the innocent will be lynched by other innocents, and it should have read your companions (to my picky linguistician's brain)~Mith
I agree that if Radagast was referring to the lynching of innocents than the proper word would have been 'your.' It could be that Radagast is referring to another kill at night (besides the wolves kill)...perhaps a character similar to Ang's assassin role? One who is on the villager's side, yet with a kill at night may make a mistake and take out some innocent people. This is the 'Bloodbath of the Anduin Vale' so it would not surprise me if we have more than one kill that takes place at night.

Whaaaaa? If the wolves do manipulate who is lynched, that wolfish manipulation will be a clear trail to them tomorrow.~Rikae
A clever wolf can get themselves out of a sticky situation by talking. The only way a wolf can not escape is if the seer dreams of them...but who even knows if we have a seer in this village?

And as for lynching gifteds, I don't see why we would be more likely to do so by lynching a quiet player than a loud one.
I disagree, a gifted who talks a lot, is one who is around a lot...and if trouble of being lynched most likely will reveal their gift. While a quiet gifted is not around as often and if he/she can't be around at the deadline, is thus not around to reveal. ;)

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 12:54 PM
Now here there are several people saying basically the same, and everyone thinks it okay?
I think it affects this that there's no modfire. If someone isn't contributing much, it's up to us to deal with him/her, and the conventional wisdom seems to be that we should do it earlier rather than later.

I have to vote in an hour, but I have no idea whom. I don't feel like voting Kath or tgwbs from my possibly guilty -list. I could vote Shasta, who doesn't speak too much and of who I have a little bad feeling.

Fea is pretty innocentish, Legate a little strange. I have somewhat bad feeling about Volo, mostly due to his very extraordinary reasoning, but he warned us about it long before the game started, and I don't think it's good enough a reason to kill him on Day 1.

Well, there's still time, so I'll see if anything interesting happens before I cast my vote.

edit: xed with Boro

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 12:56 PM
Oh and another note as far as linguistics is concerned...could we question Radagast's knowledge of proper grammer? After all 'Radagast is a character in Esspiem's story, not Esspiem himself.' I've heard Radagast being called 'the Fool' and 'Simple' before, he seems kind of unintelligent and delights spending time amonst animals. Perhaps Radagast simply doesn't know how to speak properly.

Edit: x-ed with Aganzir

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 12:59 PM
I think that seems rather unlikely. If we're told there will be hints of the roles in the narrations, I doubt even Sauce would put there false hints. But never can be sure.

Volo
06-01-2007, 01:09 PM
I find Boro's post a great joke and nothing more. Punch me if I'm wrong. :eek:

I'm pretty much out of clues as pretty much everybody looks suspicious and I have to go to sleep now.

To break the tie between Xyzzy and Durelin? I'd vote Xyzzy and that would cut off my logic. Asfaras of Itgets has so far been true to the Wisdom.

:( tgwbs looks the most innocent so sorry:

++tgwbs

And this is not a personal matter, I'm merely trying to catch a Wolf.

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh and another note as far as linguistics is concerned...could we question Radagast's knowledge of proper grammer? After all 'Radagast is a character in Esspiem's story, not Esspiem himself.' I've heard Radagast being called 'the Fool' and 'Simple' before, he seems kind of unintelligent and delights spending time amonst animals. Perhaps Radagast simply doesn't know how to speak properly.

Edit: x-ed with Aganzir


Or even grammar :p Radagast is a maia and he was called that by the treacherous Saruman. If I remember aright he was articulate enough, as reported by Gandalf, to say that the Shire was an uncouth name - though he omitted it's definite article.. so who knows. It is rather a digression. However SPM as a lawyer is tuned in to nice distinctions in language and I doupt he would have required a large number of delegates for a simple moot. So I would risk a small wager (thought not bet the house) on there being other enemies than wolves. Time will tell. A dark assasin would be perhaps only slightly less dangerous than a were-bear . Previously a werebear got nightly kills whereas the assasins were more limited I think.

Rikae
06-01-2007, 01:18 PM
A clever wolf can get themselves out of a sticky situation by talking.
A clever ordo can catch him or her in the attempt!

You may be right about gifteds, though 'quiet' doesn't always mean 'absent'.

If nothing changes, I suppose I may as well announce that, in the spirit of voting for quiet players who give one the heebie-jeebies, I plan to vote for Kath.

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 01:19 PM
Some preliminary remarks on those I have something to say without more extensive studying...


I will not vote toDay (unless something extraordinay happens):
Aganzir – Has been very helpful and bright indeed. This is not to say she couldn’t have fangs but I would really wish to see her around for a while at least.

Boromir88 – His readiness to stand up against a quite widely shared idea makes him look quite innocent. A wolf needs to please others not contradict them. I also think he is making a lot of good sense as well.

Rune Son of Bjarne – It may sound unbelievable but I don’t suspect Rune more than the natural ww-game distrust. He made some good points about voting and being worried about us lynching people who usually get suspected speaks good of him indeed.

Isabellkya – I can’t say I like the way she has played. Not at all. But for her being a newbie I would wish to give her the benefit of doubt for now.


I'm a bit worried but possibly not enough to vote toDay (suspect to rethinking):
Xyzzy – I plain dislike his playing-style (naturally not him but the tactics) and still know that in itself is not a cause for lynching. But I have a further problem. In the light of the discussions concerning the quiet / unhelpful / whatnot he clearly seems to let himself on the mercy of us. “I play this way take it or leave it”. I think it might be something like a too risky tactics for a wolf... or then just brilliant.

Durelin – Plays just as weirdly as she can. The dilemma here is that she can be the most shrewd villain or a great help later in the game.

Volo – I find his logic a bit weird but I can understand it. The problem with this is that it kind of tries to force a presupposition of his innocence to us in a quite a sneaky way (if there are also lupine hairs in him).


Once again I'm very uneasy but don't know yet if it's a reason to vote her toDay:
Kath – Plays exactly the way Kath plays, good or evil, in the beginning of the game. You can never fathom her mind until she actually starts to make a difference for good or when it’s too late for anyone to save their souls. I’m worried about her, as I tend to be everytime she is around.


And these two then:
Mormegil – Not posted yet. I would hate to lose Morm this early as I think he has a reason to be away. It's not like him to stay out of the game anyway.
Gil-Galad – Not posted yet. After some flirtation with active playing we seem to have gotten the old-time Gil back which is sad. I kind of enjoyed his recent self as a gamer more.

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 01:41 PM
++ Shasta

I'm off to sleep soon.

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 01:50 PM
There is one group I would like to mention...

Shastanis Althreduin – Could fit the “seen around wolf”-description perfectly. He has made a few perfectly reasonable points and some more or less empty show-up oneliners. So no one can’t say he’s not been involved but no one will have any idea on him either. The perfect cover, that is.

The Sixth Wizard – Another one from under the previous definition although he seems to have a bit more to say.

Thinlómien – The third one from the category. But the most productive one of them as well. A wolf Lommy might secure her Day1 just like this but so might the innocent Lommy. But she clearly belongs to the group.

Of these three I might be persuaded to vote for Shasta. The Sixth would be my second choice. But I would not wish to vote Lommy as she has at least left some marks about her ideas and she could be very helpful if innocent.

EDIT: X'd with Aganzir.

Isabellkya
06-01-2007, 01:52 PM
*plops down on the nearest available chair*

For clarification; this is indeed my first Werewolf game here. I can guess at what roles do from skimming other games here. But cobbler? Ranger? Lost on me. Shasta knows this because I introduced him to this forum. For other clarification I was having problems picking a character that I would enjoy playing. I thought about being pirate-esque.. but figured it would be annoying. I picked my character from a game called Baldur's Gate.. if you've played it then you know what I am talking about. If you haven't then I'll explain it a bit. There is a bit of a talkative-borderline annoying young girl who accompanies the main character on a quest. At the beginning of the quest the main character's adoptive father gets attacked and killed by the bad guys. The hunger- was mentioned because I was cooking dinner at that moment of my post; meatless fajitas to be exact. Plus I just skimmed the narration. So yeah me = obvious newbie.

I don't agree that you should lynch the quiet ones to accomplish an end goal. I think they should be watched throughout the entire game. More often than not; the quiet ones tend to live longer than the more vocal ones.


(Edit for spelling errors.)

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 01:53 PM
Oh and another note as far as linguistics is concerned...could we question Radagast's knowledge of proper grammer? After all 'Radagast is a character in Esspiem's story, not Esspiem himself.' I've heard Radagast being called 'the Fool' and 'Simple' before, he seems kind of unintelligent and delights spending time amonst animals. Perhaps Radagast simply doesn't know how to speak properly.
Ah yes, the good old days... :)
Anyway, I think Mith is making too much out of nothing. I believe the most probable answer is that SpM just made a grammar mistake. This, of course, does not exclude the possibility of a Werebear (as Boro already pointed out, Beorning villages are nearby), but I think we will know after the Night :rolleyes:
You the Bear? The role is new to me, what is it? A Shade-type creature? Or a cobbler with a kill? Or just a plain lonely Wolf?
Or isn't Volo a bear, by any chance, pretending not to know what it is?

Let's leave speculation, however, and go through important things. Morm-&-Gil ( :D ) didn't post toDay at all (I didn't even notice Gil's playing!), some people very scarcely. Of these I didn't like Isabellkya, because she said she'll be coming back and she didn't (at least until now). I think if someone's going to be absent, he should say it and certainly not make it appear that he'll be back when he actually does not plan to return at all.

However, I'm not going to vote the quiet ones anyway (reasons stated somewhere above). Now we have some "strange guys" like Volo, whom his new odd behavior might favour as a wolf, or he is simply innocent and nothing wrong with that. Another one might be Durelin, whose vote and strange other posts popping here and there are, well, strange. But since I remember a Wolf-Durelin being a quite vocal person, I think this might not be the case. Time will tell.

Boro and Rune seem the most "okay" to me for now.

About Mr.Noggins and Ye Olde Knighte Meneltarmacile I have spoken earlier. Noggins has kept his shadowy image of crawling haunter in the dark in my mind, but I am probably more concerned by Menel now than him. I have to ponder this yet, but I'm probably going to vote one of them.

Apart from this there is nothing much more to say. Oh yeah, one thing. Fea is definitely flying under the radar (from the very beginning).

Will be back yet.

EDIT: x-ed since Volo

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 01:54 PM
I may be imagining it but gifted revealing themselves (ooh err) seems to happen more when votes are retractable and there is more of a chance of saving themselves. I have an hour or two before I should go but I am not very close on deciding who to vote for. Of the current vote recipients ... well Durelin - it just seems so bold for a wolf to vote seeming so spontaeneously. Pehaps only an ordo would behave so .. but bold wolves are not unknown. And I don't think Durelin lacks courage.

Xyzzy well maybe he has posted a bit more than usual - marginally. And it is a truth that quiet participants cause problems. But hten he isn't the quietist. Gil and morm arte no shows. I would give morm the benefit of the doubt for now. He may not have realised the "moot" has started - and when he arrives his counsel may be of great value.

Rikae - I don't know ... past experiences make it hard for me to trust her but Kath's vote may have been truly random. Need to have another look.

Volo's vote looks like a bit of a cop out. If he wants to catch a wolf why is he voting for the person who looks the most innocent? Or am I seriously misunderstanding the game?

Aganzir - could you clarify what seems unlikely - that SpM would make false hints .. or that the hints are there?

Part of me is tempted to vote Menel becasue the cod- Old English spelling is irritating (and who elected him knight anyway? - but that would be a bit flippant.
He has made more than the average number of posts but nothing radical in them. To me his behaviour is characteristic of the flying under the radar wolf he himself describes. Legate has mentioned this (so hard to be original here :rolleyes: ) . While he may have been doing it unconsciously (rather than ironically) , on the surface his behaviour does seem suspicious. Make a reasonable amount of posts, seem helpful, latch on to a soft target. After there being two quiet wolves last time there was bound to be more support for killing the quiet this time but this seems a slightly too convenient.

Aganzir
06-01-2007, 02:03 PM
But I would not wish to vote Lommy as she has at least left some marks about her ideas and she could be very helpful if innocent.
And think how mean it would be to kill her just when she at last gets a net access home. :p

Isabellkya, the only problem with watching the queit ones rather than lynching them is that there's so little to watch.

Mith, I meant it seems unlikely there would be false hints.

Off to sleep now.

Shastanis Althreduin
06-01-2007, 02:04 PM
A clever wolf can get themselves out of a sticky situation by talking. The only way a wolf can not escape is if the seer dreams of them...but who even knows if we have a seer in this village?

Of course, like we saw last game, the wolf in question can make a challenging Seer claim. :D

I'm not sure who to vote today. There's Xyzzy, who made an early-on, traditional suspicion of Kath. There's Durelin, who made a seemingly-random vote for Kath... but she's been modfired in the last two games, so I want to give her a chance to play (that's the altruist in me speaking :rolleyes:). There's Aganzir, who thinks my posts have a bad taste... but that would feel more like a revenge vote than anything else, since I don't really have a clear picture of her. There's Nogrod, who also is mildly suspicious of me (little me! Oh dear! :P) but again, it seems like more of a revenge vote than anything else, and he seems to be a good player.

Leaving me with one choice:

++Xyzzy

Edit: X'ed with Aganzir.

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 02:17 PM
X post with Legate and others ..... It may well be nothing but a Saucegoose in the past has picked me up on fine point of language so I am at least returning the favour... and with so little in the way of clues one clutches at straws.

And now Nogrod has picked up on a group I haven't really considered. In a large village it is hard to monitor everyone.

And Isabellkya has returned and is new and perhaps should be given a chance (we have perhaps enough candidates for one night) . But I would say that quiet people survive because they are given the benefit of the doubt too long .. and then sometime villages panic or are manipulated into lynching them when there is no room for error and find that they were innocent all along. After all if there are minimal /non posters in the last handful with a couple of wolves surviving it plays into the wolves hands. Or else, they continue to get the benefit of the doubt and people say oh "they have RL things that is why they are quiet " or " that is X being X "- and that may be true but doesn't stop them being wolves...

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 02:17 PM
Thank's for coming forwards Isabellkya. Now you only need to read a bit and see that we're not roleplaying but werewolfing... Try it. I'm sure you'll like it. :)

Good points on Menel, Mith!Make a reasonable amount of posts, seem helpful, latch on to a soft target.I mean it's also a very wolvish tactics to declare you have a logic and then follow it. It kind of covers your votes so that the you can always defend them afterwards with their logic. I'm adding him to my list of possible votes from me toDay.

EDIT: X'd with Mith.

Shastanis Althreduin
06-01-2007, 02:25 PM
I mean it's also a very wolvish tactics to declare you have a logic and then follow it. It kind of covers your votes so that the you can always defend them afterwards with their logic.

I'm not sure I understand your point, Nogrod. Logic is logic, isn't it? :confused:

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Why thank you Mr Nogrod - the praise of the praiseworthy blah blah :D

While my grief would be controllable if Xyzzy went based on previous performance .. . it does seem to be a bit of a bandwaggon and given my disquiet about Menel, one I am not sure I want to join. Lynching the quiet is a good option if you can't do better but Menel seems actively suspicious. I would prefer to make a proactive choice and there are still enough people left to vote to make a vote for Menel more than a throwaway vote. I can't wait much longer. I will have another quick look at the moment I think I will go with Menel.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 02:40 PM
It may well be nothing but a Saucegoose in the past has picked me up on fine point of language so I am at least returning the favour... and with so little in the way of clues one clutches at straws.
I don't know if SpM does things like that, but if it were like you say, then it would mean he didn't mention at all the possibility of innocents lynching innocents - and I got more the feeling that the intro is a very nice, clear image containing the basic rules in a nice in-story pack. It may be that you are right, or that Radagast the Bird-Tamer has simply erred in his speech (though he being the one who speaks even with birds, he should have known how to speak with humans. Hmm, or maybe just because of that? Always talking to birds that fly here and there and thus forgetting how to speak with people?), but still the most logical to me seems the possibility that great narrator SpM simply erred. I think no one except too picky people ( :D ) will find hidden messages like that, even if he intended it.

I'm not sure I understand your point, Nogrod. Logic is logic, isn't it?
Well, actually not and this is a good point Nogrod made. If you are a wolf and say "I always lynch people who do this and this", and then do it, although they turn out to be innocent, you can say "so what? I'm just being myself."

Seeing the votes this far (and bearing in mind that I wanted to vote for someone who was not voted yet), I can't be silent about one fear I have that we are quite likely to lynch an innocent today just because the number of differing options. The wolves won't have trouble to ensure we pick an innocent and not one of them (if even there is a wolf among the voted). Of course, the easier it will be later to check the voting list, but still...

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure I understand your point, Nogrod. Logic is logic, isn't it? :confused:I see that I kind of wrote that one too rushedly...

What I mean is that as Days go by people start to read other peoples' votes with the knowledge they have gained. Now it's critical not only for whom you gave your vote and when but also for what reason you claimed to have done that. The most obvious "no tracks left behind" for others to analyse is the random vote like "I'll vote the one who begins with an 's'" or "I take a random calculator and perform some maths with it". *cough tgwbs cough*

These votes leave the others in total darkness about their actual reasons or the absence of them. So they're the greatest places for the wolves to hide without revealing their intentions. That is the reason I dislike them.

Now declaring to vote in random (or random with a method) is the worst case. The second worst of the kind is to say you have a principle and you will follow it to the end like saying "I always vote for the loudmouths because I don't like to read so much" or whatever. Like Volo in a way seems to be doing and Menel in a way as well. When asked why did you vote for X you can always say "the principle I gave demanded it from me". The problem with this is that you kind of outsource the responsibility of your decisions to a principle.

Innocent people can declare principles and even act on them as well. But the innocents are also ready to change their principles or make exceptions to them when they see a need for it for the sake of the common good.

EDIT: X'd with Mith and Legate

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 02:46 PM
I can't be around at the deadline, today, I still have a bit more time so just some remarks on people before I make my vote:

I was a little nervous about Mithalwen earlier, but her recent visits have brought back the innocent Mith I love to see. The Mith that examines the narrations for any secret clues, the Mith that has a reasonable and soothing presense. So, I feel good about Mith right now.

A clever ordo can catch him or her in the attempt!

You may be right about gifteds, though 'quiet' doesn't always mean 'absent'.~Rikae
This is exactly the type of smarts and wits I've been wishing to see all day. So, I'm fine with Rikae right now too.

I'll probably end up voting for Menel...eventhough if I know I'm going to get hammered for making a safe vote. All I can do is vote for the one I find most guilty and that is Menel.

Edit: x-ed with Nogrod and Legate

Mithalwen
06-01-2007, 02:51 PM
Can't come ot a better conclusion in the time left


++ Meneltarmacil

Boromir88
06-01-2007, 02:53 PM
Some parting thoughts here...I think come day time the deaths and narrations will reveal more about the wolves and what gifteds we have helping us in this village.

Now I must depart for good and with that comes my vote for:

++Meneltarmacil

the guy who be short
06-01-2007, 02:54 PM
Why discuss potential roles (bears etc.) when we'll find out tonight? Why discuss the intro? - I doubt it will provide anything useful. All this is a distraction from wolf-hunting.

Rikae
06-01-2007, 03:03 PM
I suppose I'd better vote.

I do suspect Kath, but she can be valuable if innocent, and I'd rather give her a chance to talk.

For now, I'm afraid I'll have to vote for:

++Xyzzy

Rikae
06-01-2007, 03:04 PM
And, might I add, my vote represents me talking a stand for WW as it should be...talkative!! After all, the game only exists in our conversation!

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 03:42 PM
Durelin -> Kath
Kath -> Rikae
Menel -> Xyzzy
Fea -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2)
tgwbs -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin1)
Rune -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2)
Volo -> tgwbs (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1)
Aganzir -> Shasta (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Shasta -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Mith -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel1)
Boro -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)
Rikae -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy4, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)

Here are reasons for these votes... my interpretations and comments for anything even remotely suspicous on them I mean (with some quotations).


Durelin for Kath: Out of the blue with no reason whatsoever eg. totally random. As there have been no played Night before it can’t be any seer stuff either... A weird one from a wolf but possible for Dury-wolf as well.

Kath for Rikae: “I've only had time to skim through the thread I really don't have much to go on”. Says Rikae has been testy and only defending ideas might be wolvish. I have a bad feeling about this even as she was in a hurry. Her testimony goes against the facts and it just sounds... well too much the dangerous Kath who makes an easy vote to save her Day1.

Menel for Xyzzy: “He is quite silente for ye moste parte, and what he did say was pretty suspiciouse.” So he has the mission to go for the silent ones and takes the most obvious / easy one? Logical for the early exiter but smells wolfy as well...

Fea on Xyzzy: “Because I have nobody better to vote for at the moment.” This was said after a long post where she discussed with / about many people but didn’t even mention Xyzzy. Safe vote at least... and who needs to vote safe?

Tgwbs for Durelin: “in the vein of killing the quiet” and the suspicious-looking as well? Hard to say anything about this. One could defend it and criticise it.

Rune for Durelin: “Durelin is always a mystery to me so she will recive my vote”. A safe-kind of vote as well with no points to back it so it could be suspected a lot. But other things Rune has said toDay kind of make me look upon him as an innocent rather than a fanged one.

Volo for tgwbs: “tgwbs looks the most innocent so sorry”. Need we add more to the curiosity of this choise? I’m torn between symphatising with Volo or just plain suspecting him of wolvery...

Aganzir for Shasta: “I have to vote in an hour, but I have no idea whom ....... I could vote Shasta, who doesn't speak too much and of who I have a little bad feeling.” Interestingly safely and emptily formulated after we all have seen how sharp she can be.

Shasta for Xyzzy: To avoid looking like someone who retaliates (so not voting for Aganzir or me) and to show out like an altruist (not Durelin who has been modfired lately) he votes for Xyzzy... Interesting reasons. And to my eye pretty wolfy as well as it seems to be about how he looks and not about whom his vote might aid to lynch (add the way he has played to this pot).

Mith for Menel: “Make a reasonable amount of posts, seem helpful, latch on to a soft target”. So the helpful-looking but under-radar wolf. She looks like she has actually come to the conclusion post after post while she was at it.

Boro for Menel: Suspected Menel from the very beginning – like he always does. But produced arguments as well. Logical and coherent vote. The time will tell whether that logic was the logic of an innocent (as I tend to believe at the moment) or not.

Rikae for Xyzzy: “my vote represents me talking a stand for WW as it should be...talkative!! After all, the game only exists in our conversation!” So not having anything better to go by and choosing the most suspicious or most displeasing of the bunch she thought we should go for in general? Possibly. I’m ready to take this as an innocent vote. Although this could be read as a safe one as well... All that talk about Xyzzy around and then avoiding the responsibilities that would have followed had she chosen someone else and needing to make cases for an innocent known to her being one...

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Those who have not yet voted in the order of my perception of the possibility they will vote:

Thinlómien - will not vote (I know, I talked with her on a phone a few hours ago and she promised to text me if she thought she could vote without seeing the rest of the Day after she left - it's coming 1 AM here so she's sleeping I believe)

Gil-Galad - hasn't shown up at all...
Mormegil - hasn't shown up at all...

xyzzy - interesting to see if he comes to vote... he would then vote to save himself I guess.
The Sixth Wizard - hasn't been seen for a long time either... will he vote?

Isabellkya - I hope she will vote as she was around just a while ago
Legate of Amon Lanc - will vote, I think, hope

Nogrod - will vote.


The reason I'm doing this? To see our chances.

So the line to the gallows:
Xyzzy4
Durelin2
Menel2
Kath1
Rikae1
tgwbs1
Shasta1

At worst we have only two votes to come.

That means that my top suspects / worries seem to be out of reach (Kath and Shasta). But if many people enough would be willing to join me we might do it. It would need four votes. I would be happy to try either of them.

The next I would try Menel. That would take three votes.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 04:14 PM
Yup, I'm here... and I'll be probably voting for Menel, as I said earlier, though I hoped I'll see some words from xyzzy, Six, Izabellkya... it also seems to me that it will be quite easy for xyzzy to vote for Menel if I do and someone else does as well... at least it does not look like a last-minute vote battle (or could it, if suddenly all of the missing emerged?)

The Sixth Wizard
06-01-2007, 04:19 PM
Argh! I am very very sorry but my alarm clock failed to go off and I only have 15 minutes on WereWolf instead of an hour or two. Gah!

I suppose I should just vote for a quiet, and Durelin always annoys me...

+Durelin

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 04:22 PM
I say we hold our thumbs for more people to gather around here and go for Menel (that would need one more).

But if there would be a fourth I would advise you all think about Kath or Shasta as well.

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 04:23 PM
Aaaarrrggh!

EDIT: the earlier one was a crosspost... and our chances are getting slim indeed.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 04:25 PM
Isabellkya - I hope she will vote as she was around just a while ago

Well, it's actually about three hours. She has disappeared back then, she can now. Who knows...

Anyway apart from me now it's just xyzzy, unless Morm or Gil mysteriously appear out of thin air.

++Ye Olde Meneltarmacile

xyzzy
06-01-2007, 04:26 PM
Aagh, I get on to find that people are voting me for a random comment! Horrors.

Since I know myself to be innocent, my best chance is a gamble: I'm gonig to vote

++Menel

I'd like to point out that if you want to get anything useful out of Isabellkya, you're going to have to be very direct; her playing style is like mine, but 1000% more.

I'm mildly suspicious of the various folks who've made a big deal about - may I point it out - the SECOND post in the game. Obviously, I had nothing to go on; for the most part, it was an inside joke between me and Isabellkya. (The forum where we play at besides here has an ironic habit of voting for people entirely on the basis that they were the first to post.

And while I'd like to live, I want to point out that lynching someone based on what you see as a bad playing style is often a successful strategy; if you don't kill a wolf, it's because you killed a reckless/dangerous person. Of course, I don't fancy myself reckless or dangerous, but you might. :)

Isabellkya
06-01-2007, 04:28 PM
Durelin -> Kath
Kath -> Rikae
Menel -> Xyzzy
Fea -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2)
tgwbs -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin1)
Rune -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2)
Volo -> tgwbs (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1)
Aganzir -> Shasta (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Shasta -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Mith -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel1)
Boro -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)
Rikae -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy4, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2

What does all of this mean. I understand the first part; it is who is voting for who. But what is the stuff which is inside the commas?


I guess I will go with Xyzzy for not exactly coming back an posting more after his first post.. unless of course I missed it.

++Xyzzy

The Sixth Wizard
06-01-2007, 04:28 PM
Updatede Votes:

Xyzzy5 (not 4)
Durelin3
Menel4
Kath1
Rikae1
tgwbs1
Shasta1

Xyzzy or Menel?

(EDIT)

Xyzzy...

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Let's go.

++ Meneltarmacil

I will scorn myself if Xyzzy turns out a baddie in the end though...

The Saucepan Man
06-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Day 1 is done. Voting over.

Result to follow shortly ...

Nogrod
06-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Oh my! Isabellkya!

That's Xyzzy then... unless one more comes in...

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-01-2007, 04:30 PM
*AHEM* points up (Isabell)

EDIT: x-d, sorry

The Saucepan Man
06-01-2007, 05:34 PM
With a flash, a skeletal woman robed in black carrying a great scythe appeared and started gooning and grimacing fleshlessly into the middle distance.

“Welcome back to Werewolf Four and Thirty,” she said. “The votes have been counted and verified, and I can now reveal that the first person to be lynched in Woodgard is ….”

Caught up in the moment, the assembled delegates held their breath, even though they already knew the result.

“… xyzzy!”

Gasps, cheers, and not a few boos, rang out as xyzzy stepped forward.

“Xyzzy, you have one hour to say your goodbyes,” the Grim Daviner continued, “I’m coming to get you!”

“Er, I thought that these narratives were supposed to be all atmospheric and canonical,” Kath whispered to The Sixth Wizard.

“I think that idea went out of the window when the roles started being posted,” muttered Sixth in reply.

“But how are we to kill him?” asked Rune Son of Bjarne, as it occurred to him that the village had been so intent upon its moot all day that no method of administering capital punishment had yet been prepared.

“’E’s a witch! Burn him!” shouted Nogrod, predictably, in an unfeasibly high-pitched voice.

“Can’t we just … ahem …” spluttered Shastanis Althreduin, clearing his throat. “Sorry, I’m a bit horse.”

Gasps, cheers and boos turned to groans.

“Can’t we just chop his head off?” the centaur continued.

“You should be careful that you don’t get a frog in your throat,” observed the guy who be short. “They can be fatal in these kinds of situations.”

“I say that we needlessly build an incredibly complex catapult-device-thing,” suggested Volo hirsutely, “and - er - catapult him out of the village.”

“Ye olde catapulte,” said Meneltarmacil. “Thou knowest what. It just mayeth work.”

“No!” declared de Legate of Amon Lanc solemnly. “I decree that we administer a fatal dose of poison.”

“By what authority do you make such a decree?” demanded Mithalwen.

“I am De Legate!” he replied, mysteriously.

“Look, you can’t claim to wield supreme executionary power just ‘cause some grammatically inept mod made a narrative-based pun on your name,” she challenged.

“Madam,” interjected Boromir88, “Might I ask by what authority you claim to nit-pick the moderator’s grammar?”

“But what about xyzzy?” enquired Aganzir, polishing her axe impatiently.

“We should administer a spanking!” declared Rikae, naughtily. "Spankings all round!"

“Enough with the Pythonicity already!” cried Isabellkya.

“We could just let him go,” suggested Feanor of the Peredhil controversially.

“…” said mormegil.

“…” agreed Gil-Galad.

"Hooray for Follywood!" sang out Durelin, inexplicably.

“Honorable chair, fellow delegates,” stated Thinlómien, rising from her chair. “Acknowledging the many points made by the assembled delegates in the foregoing moot and noting that voting closed over an hour ago, INSTRAW would like to propose a motion requiring that strenuous efforts be made to draw up a framework within which the conditions might be agreed for bringing about the ultimate death of the condemned delegate, xyzzy. Thank you.”

Xyzzy, in the meantime, had quietly, uneventfully and inobtrusively hung himself in a corner.

********************************

“Cheeky blighters!,” muttered Radagast some miles away in Rhosgobel, as he pruned his tomato plants. “Questioning my grammar! The very impudence of it. And now they has gone and killed an innocent.”

“Indeed they has,” observed the lark perched on his shoulder. “But look on the bright side. At least the moderator has used up all his role-based quips all at once.”

********************************

The dead:

The Saucepan Man - Slaughtered and boiled up in a spicy ghoulash on Night zero.
xyzzy - Got bored of the role-based banter and hung himself quietly, uneventfully and inobtrusively on Day 1 (Ordinary Innocent)

The living:

Mormegil
Rikae
Durelin
Aganzir
Gil-Galad
Shastanis Althreduin
Volo
Nogrod
Boromir88
Meneltarmacil
The Sixth Wizard
Thinlómien
Legate of Amon Lanc
Kath
Isabellkya
the guy who be short
Mithalwen
Feanor of the Peredhil
Rune Son of Bjarne

Those with Nightly activities, do your stuff. And don't forget to send me your choices no later than one hour before the deadline.

The Saucepan Man
06-02-2007, 04:29 PM
Morning arrived, grey and bleak. The frivolity of the previous Day was no more, for the Night had witnessed grim and dark deeds.

The first sight that greeted the delegates was a trail of blood leading from Meneltarmacil’s hut. Following it into a nearby copse, they came upon a curious sight. A great Wolf lay in a pool of blood, panting and whimpering through his black fangs. The villagers hands went immediately to their weapons, but they were not needed. The beast soon died from his grievous wounds and, as he died, he transformed back into his human form. Meneltarmacil, ye Olde Knighte, had been a fearsome Beaste of the Nighte, but he was no more.

Their spirits lifted, the delegates returned to the village in happy mood. But it was not long before they discovered that two of their number were missing. In dread, they searched the absent delegates’ huts. The sights that greeted them there dashed their spirits once more.

In the first, they found a headless corpse, half-eaten. As they gaped in despair at the macabre remains, a cry of horror rang out and one of the delegates pointed to the wall. All eyes followed the outstretched finger, only to see the head of the missing delegate mounted there, leering lifelessly down at them. In his village, this delegate had been a hunter of renown. But last Night he had become the hunted and now a final scalp had been added to his trophy collection - his own. For all his hunting skills, though, Rune Son of Bjarne had merely been an ordinary innocemt villager.

No sign of the second hut’s inhabitant could at first be found. Searching, however, the delegates found sacks full of items that they recognised. Valuable items which had seemingly gone missing from their home villages. It was a veritable treasure trove. But where was the villain? It was not long before they found the answer. Durelin’s dead corpse hung from the rafters on the second floor. The delegate from Follywood had been a notorious Thief. Her folly, however, had been to pry into Nightly activities which she should not have seen. And those that she had spied on had summarily executed her for it.

The dead

The Saucepan Man - Slaughtered and boiled up in a spicy ghoulash on Night zero.
xyzzy - Got bored of the role-based banter and hung himself quietly on Day 1 (Ordinary Innocent)
Meneltarmacil - Fatally wounded in sooth he was and crawled awaye to find ye deathe in ye woodes on Nighte 1 (Werewolfe)
Rune Son of Bjarne - Hunted and added to his own trophy collection on Night 1 (Ordinary Innocent)
Durelin - Spied on things which she should not have seen and got hung for it on Night 1 (Thief)

The living:

Mormegil
Rikae - the naughty delegate from the village with the unlikely name of Castle Anthrax
Aganzir - the Dwarf delegate of a Woodsmen village
Gil-Galad
Shastanis Althreduin - the extremely detail-oriented centaur delegate from the Plains
Volo - the very hairy delegate from as far as it gets
Nogrod - the moody delegate from the Witch-burners' village who is ready and willing to form a theory to suit his feelings whatever the facts ...
Boromir88 - the filibuster delegate from Laketown, whose geography is not that good
The Sixth Wizard
Thinlómien - the Delegate of INSTRAW
Legate of Amon Lanc - the De-Legate of Amon Lanc
Kath
Isabellkya - the delegate from the village Kyaq
the guy who be short - the delegate from nearby Necropolis
Mithalwen - the delegate of an anarco-sydicalist commune, taking her turn as a sort of executive officer for the week
Feanor of the Peredhil - the slightly offbeat delegate who offers controversial suggestions to the moot regardless of lycanthropic tendencies

Day 2 has begun. Those who can PM at Night must stop. The moot is once more in session.

Boromir88
06-02-2007, 04:44 PM
Well, what an eventful night, tis a bloodbath indeed! Bless the person who slew the wicked Menel at night. He should have been the one lynched yesterday, then xyzzy could have been spared.

Simply basing this off votes yesterday, but I feel pretty good about Legate and Mith who consistantly were suspicious of Menel all day and both raised good points that led to him getting under suspicion and indirectly leading to his death.

In fact all Menel voters I feel pretty good about...the only one that I have a little worries about is Nogrod. Whom supported and advocated Menel's plans yesterday, but then later on in the day switched and voted for him. If it wasn't for Isabell, Nogrod's vote would have gotten Menel lynched, but I wouldn't put it past Menel to lynch a companion to make himself look innocent.

With that being said I am immediately suspicious of Isabell who made a crucial vote sealing xyzzy's death and saving Menel from the noose, but not from a mysterious huntsmen at night. I think it's highly possible that Isabell was not planning on having Menel turn up dead in the morning, therefor she was in cohoots with him!

Kath
06-02-2007, 04:46 PM
So ... how exactly did Menel die? I thought at first that it was down to Rune 'cause I skim-read and saw the word hunter but he was just an ordo. Is it possible we have some kind of 'Golden Dagger' role again?

Anyway, I missed most of yesterDay so I shall now go back over it and find out what actually happened!

Nogrod
06-02-2007, 05:25 PM
Oh my... this game looks like it's name was not randomly chosen.

So three different sides who have a licence to kill running amok in the Night.

Of the killer(s) of Menel it's not in any way revealed whether it was one or more who did it. The same goes with the killer(s) of Rune. It looks to me quite deliberate choice on part of out moderator not to reveal the numbers. Of the killers of Durelin we know they're more than one as there is the: And those that she had spied on had summarily executed her for it.
It might be safe to assume at least to begin with that the one (or more) who killed Menel were goodies. So we could have goodies that can kill. But the two others then? The easy answer is that we have wolves and the werebear. The bear killed Rune and the wolves took the life of Durelin.

Durelin was a thief who had been spying on the wolves then? What does it mean or is it important anyway? This kind of bothers me. Was it just a remarkable coincidence that the wolves chose Dury while Dury chose a wolf to "thief" (whatever it is that stoling might mean) or is there something like a more meaningful relation? I mean if Dury died because of:Her folly, however, had been to pry into Nightly activities which she should not have seen.Then it could be interpreted in a way that those she spied were not able to kill but if spied on - kind of hunter-like baddies... or goodies? So it was not the wolves who killed her then? But who? Is this the reason why the narration is deliberately vague on the number of those who killed Rune? So the wolves killed Rune and these others who can't kill but by retaliation to any action (killing, hunting, spying, dreaming... who knows?) taken towards them killed Dury? That would a weird bunch of persons. Well Radagast said he was not seeing clearly...

Not to talk of us...

So easy explanation and a wonderful coincidence or the "thief"-thing in the narration meaning something and thence a throng of insecurities?

My brain hurts and it's late. I go and have a cigarette and sit back for a short moment to see if I have anything constructive to say before I go to sleep.

Kath
06-02-2007, 05:29 PM
Day 1:

xyzzy - turns up and in typical Day 1 style throws suspicion toward the only person who has so far commented, me. This sparked quite a bit of debate but I don't really see anything wolvish in it.

Shasta - in character banter.

Menel - began the loud/quiet wolf debate. While it's great for us in terms of numbers it's almost a shame that he died so quickly, as we don't really know which side of the coin he was on.

Rune - questions Menel.

EDIT: Gah, sorry about that. Hit enter instead of tab. The rest of this post will follow in a bit. :rolleyes:

Kath
06-02-2007, 06:18 PM
I'm leaving in those who are already dead for now as it helps when looking at what they said about others.

Day 1:

xyzzy - turns up and in typical Day 1 style throws suspicion toward the only person who has so far commented, me. This sparked quite a bit of debate but I don't really see anything wolvish in it. Returns to say that his suspicion was only a joke.

Shasta - in character banter. Argues with Nogrod that he isn't suspicious, but agrees that xyzzy is. Mentions that Izzie may not know what a Cobbler is due to her newbieness. Now this may be true, but if there is a Cobbler in the game there's nothing to say that the role hasn't been given to Izzie, in which case she would know exactly what one was. Or she may have read over old games. Assuming the ignorance of a newbie is a mistake I have made before so I aim to avoid it this time! Mentions his own relative newbieness in a rather more subtle way by asking for the history of the Boro/Menel feud.

Menel - began the loud/quiet wolf debate. While it's great for us in terms of numbers it's almost a shame that he died so quickly, as we don't really know which side of the coin he was on. He puts himself firmly on the 'lynch the quiet ones' side. I don't think Menel is a careless wolf and so wouldn't fling out clues so early, but it is possible that this is a piece of misdirection. This plan rarely gets much support, so it may be that his fellow wolves are quiet players. Thinks xyzzy looks wolvish. Defends himself against Boro, and says that xyzzy could still be a wolf even if his comment was a joke. It's a fair point even from a wolf. Continues to argue for lynching the unhelpful, seemingly as a defense against Boro.

Rune - questions Menel. Says that the 'lynch the quiet ones' thing tends to cause the death of more innocents than wolves, but then says that if we're to do it we should do it early so we're not scared to later in the game.

Nogrod - random nonsense for a while followed by a demand for people to speak. Throws some suspicion on xyzzy (seriously, can I spell that Zizzi? It's how I pronounce it and it's driving me nuts trying to remember to spell it correctly!) for being immediately accusatory and Shasta as well for saying something without actually saying anything. It's an odd post just in that he is doing pretty much what he's just become suspicious of others for doing. Only 5 people had posted before him, all very early on in the Day. Expecting novel length pieces of useful information is a bit hopeful! He gives support to Menel, but Menel really didn't say anything useful. He just repeated something that is said at the beginning of pretty much every game. It's just odd. Tries to make clear that we should only lynch the quiet ones if we have no one better to lynch. It is a fair point but I often wonder what the cut-off point for being 'quiet' is. If someone posts once a Day just to vote with no timezone reasoning behind it then maybe we could count that, but if it's a useful post? The lines for this are so unclear. Then decides I am suspicious looking but xyzzy is still more so.

Rikae - agrees with Nogrod that xyzzy was wrong to suspect me on the basis of being first to post, but then says she suspects me for the tone of my post. Then argues with Noggie, saying in character banter is normal for early Day 1. Thinks the 'lynch the quiet ones' policy is actually a good one and that Shasta is sending out wolf hints with the mentions of being hungry in his post. That's actually a pretty good find. If Shasta is a wolf am I right in thinking it would be his first time? Could be a newbie mistake. Not sure on that though, it seems a little pointless to put hints in the discussion if he knows who his fellow wolves are. Continues to suspect Shasta on the basis of the narration and also says Boro is being 'safe' in arguing against the 'lynch the quiet ones' strategy. This is where I got suspicious of her yesterDay. When I was reading through she was about the only one that really stood out because that post felt really quite antagonistic. The reread does nothing to take away the antagonistic feel, but I've read the points she's making now and they do make sense. No point in just having numbers at the end of the game, you need people who are going to take part at that point too.

Izzie - in character banter.

Boro - thinks Menel suspicious, arguing that lynching the quiet ones is silly because the wolves are always 'helpful' in a village. Also says his jumping on xyzzy was odd. Now this was a pretty incredible first Day for Boro! Getting a wolf in his first post. But at the moment I don't think this is suspicious. The old rivalry between the two would mean Boro was likely looking very carefully at Menel's posts anyway. Of course it could have been fantastic luck that both were chosen to be wolves and decided to start the usual argument between them, but for now I'm keeping Boro on the innocent side, especially after his rather lengthy explanation of just why he suspects Menel. It's another tone-based argument, but Boro often suspects and votes from feelings rather than facts.

Durelin - says not to talk about killing the quiet ones yet as not enough people have spoken to know who the quiet ones are. Apparently randomly votes for me as there's no explanation given.

Sixth - thinks we should lynch a quiet one just for a change of pace. Seems to be a 'Day 1 is useless' person and so thinks the lynch might as well be random, not something I agree with. Thinks xyzzy is suspicious for that first post. Thinks Guy was jumpy on accusing Fea. To me that post seemed pretty much typical Day 1 banter from Guy, so it's actually this 'jump' from Sixth that has me wary.

Lommy - agrees with lynching a quiet person if you don't have a good reason to lynch a loud one. Thinks Nogrod was hasty in his suspicion of Shasta and xyzzy so in his suspicion of me. Relatively innocuous statements really seeing as other villagers had already mentioned this. Also gets bad vibes from Boro. In fact, I don't like this post at all. Lommy is really quite indecisive with 'they could be this ... but they could be that' statements running rife through it. Definitely one to watch here.

Aganzir - ah! She made my point about Izzie knowing about the Cobbler if she is one. Oh well, at least I said it before I read it. Thinks xyzzy isn't suspicious and that the 'lynch a quiet one if you can't lynch a loud one for good reason' plan is good.

Guy - says lynch the quiet ones starting with Fea, so a typical first post from him.

Alright, it's one in the morning and I need sleep. I've only got through the first page of the thread so far but some interesting things have turned up all the same. I'll come back tomorrow and finish this off, making sure to keep a close eye on the xyzzy voters since he turned out to be innocent, as well as those who mentioned Menel and Rune. I see little point in concentrating on Durelin. She barely said anything during the Day and it seems that her death was almost accidental

Nogrod, Sixth and Lommy are the ones that strike me as not being quite right at the moment for the reasons mentioned above. They will certainly be on my radar when I return.

Nogrod
06-02-2007, 06:20 PM
Okay.

There are different "fractions" in this game and we should remeber this when we make judgements on others. The familiar logic of all the baddies knowing each other vs. all the blind goodies doesn't work here. And there may even be something like an odd fraction to muddy the waters even more. So possibly not two sides but three. I think this is important to remember while we make our analyses or form our judgements.

----
Durelin's death I find interesting as it hides this enigma of a thief. So was there a relation of her role to the fact she got killed?

The easier version as I said surely makes it just a coincidence. The wolves wanted to kill Dury while Dury was up to the wolves, probably one of them. In this direction Dury has left us no hints whatsoever as she practically didn't discuss anyone yesterDay (see the value of speaking and actually saying something!!! we could do with some such clues right now!). The only thing we have here is Kath... She did vote her anyway. But would Kath-wolf wish to kill the one who had totally randomly voted for her with nothing of substance on Day1? I think that she could do it. No one who has played with her would believe a claim that she was worried about Dury and wished to do away with her. So no one would believe she was involved when Dury dies...

But what if there's a role that only kills during the Night if it's been acted upon (like the hunting, killing, dreaming, thiefing...) then the only person we might find to make sense that Dury was going to "thief" is... Kath again. I could even imagine a ruling that you must vote for a person you wish to steal her/his role from to add on your own repertoire the next Night or something. That would be an interesting role indeed!

Sorry, but I'm no cobbler. I just try to think things out...

Whichever way I look at Dury's death it still confirms my feeling that Kath is up to something that is not good.

----
Boro had a good point on Isabellkaya. Her last actions do look pretty bad indeed. But the same can be said of The Sixth as well and his vote on Dury at the last moments some minutes before. The situation was quite similar. In Isabellkaya's case the softening factor is her newbieness, in Sixth's case it is his assurations in both this and the admin. thread that he had overslept and had just waken up. I mean that I have been involved in those last minute madnesses many times and must admit that they may be quite messy. Even one moderator once lost the track of the situation... *cough Mac cough* :D

Still I think we should look at them both toDay more carefully.

EDIT: X'd with Kath

mormegil
06-02-2007, 07:18 PM
GAH! The delegate of the silent has arrived and doesn't have much to say....at least not yet :p

The Sixth Wizard
06-02-2007, 07:25 PM
Okay, here's Ye Olde Wolfe's post details...

#7 ~ Says we should 'get ye wolves out into the opene'.

#13 ~ Says the best way to do what he says in #7 is to lynch the quiet ones.

#15 ~ Thinks xyzzy looks like a wolfe because of his suspicion casting.

#28 ~ Defends himselfe versuse Boromir88. Re-enforces his suspicions of xyzzy.

#35 ~ Changes tactics and says in italics "I am not saying that we must lynch all the quiet/unhelpful/whatever ones!

#59 ~ VOTES for xyzzy.

After that: He be Deade.


So basically trying very hard to get suspicion off him onto xyzzy and succeeding, but dying through the night. We have to suspect Izzy, who saved him...

(EDIT) x - ed with morm

mormegil
06-02-2007, 07:37 PM
Trust me or not I do not care but Mith is innocnet I tell you. Now on to Fea another one I can read a bit better than most :D

Shastanis Althreduin
06-02-2007, 11:12 PM
Votes from yesterday:

Durelin -> Kath
Kath -> Rikae
Menel -> Xyzzy
Fea -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2)
tgwbs -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin1)
Rune -> Durelin (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2)
Volo -> tgwbs (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1)
Aganzir -> Shasta (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy2, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Shasta -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1)
Mith -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel1)
Boro -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy3, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)
Rikae -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy4, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)
Legate -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy4, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel3)
Xyzzy -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy4, Durelin2,, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel4)
Isobellkya -> Xyzzy (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy5, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel2)
Nogrod -> Menel (Kath1, Rikae1, Xyzzy5, Durelin2, tgwbs1, Shasta1, Menel5)

Okay, I missed a vote for Menel somewhere. Will edit momentarily.

Edit: WAIT A SECOND. There was a tie yesterday! What happened?

Isabellkya
06-02-2007, 11:54 PM
What do thieves do; are they a sort of tracker?

The main reason I voted for Xyzzy was because it was the first name which popped into my head for questionable behavior. When I posted my vote for Xyzzy; about eight (I don't know the exact number,) or so new posts popped up. We can't change our votes; and how was I supposed to know that Menel was/is a baddie?

Anyways, I will post something more constructive in the morning. I am having a hard time controlling my yawns right now.

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 12:29 AM
I'm wondering about the night time activities that took place and here's my input.

And those that she had spied on had summarily executed her for it.
This is Durelin's death, and the word 'those' makes it seem as if there were multiple people Durelin had spied on. So, I agree with Nogrod, that Durelin had been spying on the wolves and it was the wolves that took care of her.

Which leaves who killed Menel and Rune? Yesterday, I talked about the role of the bear. It was actually the first village my family was in, SpM was in that village to, and if I remember he was quite fond of the bear. Now in that village it was the 'Black Beorning' who was virtually a lone wolf, with a night kill and only one if he/she was the last one standing. Rune had been rather gruesomely killed, I wonder if we have a Black Beorning in the village?

Menel had also been gruesomely taken care of, though right now I am leaning to think that whomever disposed of Menel is on our side. Maybe an assasin type character? Obviously it was someone who was highly suspicious of Menel all day, disappointed he wasn't lynched, and so decided to take care of what the village failed to do during the day.

Nogrod, good point about The Sixth's votes, I was making some comments about those who voted for Menel and Isabell's vote for xyzzy which stuck out the most to me.

Shasta, you missed Sixth's vote for Durelin, but xyzzy and Menel did end up in a tie. There are no double lynchings in this village (as that old quack wizard told us we must choose 'one'), and I think whoever gets to the most votes first (in this case 5 and xyzzy) is the one that goes in the event of a tie.

The Sixth Wizard
06-03-2007, 01:14 AM
The main reason I voted for Xyzzy was because it was the first name which popped into my head for questionable behavior. When I posted my vote for Xyzzy; about eight (I don't know the exact number,) or so new posts popped up. We can't change our votes; and how was I supposed to know that Menel was/is a baddie?

Whoah, just a second. The first name that popped into your head? Do you mean to tell us that you took that little amount of thought to your vote that late in the day, when it was so important? It basically saved Menel. I'm sorry, but you're still on my list of suspects...

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 03:24 AM
Okay, so here we go. This village indeed seems to be a bloodbath ground, and we have four (!) people less just on Day 2. Of course, it was probably just a coincidence, but even then. Now a debate has been started here, I think quite rightfully, what we can make out of it.

From my point of view, I think we can assume from the narration the following:

There was surely one kill by the Wolves (unless we have seven hundred assassins in the village and the Wolves' kill was blocked by some Ranger), probably Rune (?) I think the reason was that he seemed quite innocent in profile (some people mentioned him). So this one would be a typical nightly kill.
There was a kill by, well, I'd suppose a Werebear - first, it's the most logical, second, in the Anduin Vales a Beorning is quite a nice requisite, third, it's only logical that in such a big village there'll be something more than just Wolves (unless the number of Wolves will be more than 3, but from the number of kills I think statistics speak for more than one baddie with a kill, no matter how many the wolves are). Or, now another idea occured to me, what if there were more Wolf teams? It will be also a possibility, though not as nice going with the narration as the Bear, but still...(?) I don't know about this one. I'd say, by logic, that this kill would be Menel, and I think it will be a good Werebearish behavior to "test water" on killing Menel, because be he a wolf or not, it will be a good kill for Werebear, since all would be his enemies, no? In case of multiple Wolf teams, the kill would be even more logical (the one party might think that Menel is a Wolf, as many people did here, and simply kill him, or only for the reason to cause confusion by elliminating the second favored suspect of yesterDay).
The death of Durelin could have been just a coincidence of the Wolves going against her, as I think Noggins brought here, but I think the formulations (boldening mine):
And those that she had spied on had summarily executed her for it.
Spied on things which she should not have seen and got hung for it on Night 1
imply that the death was "triggered" by her choosing someone for the target of her nightly activities. So then we'll actually have Wolves' kill (probably Rune), then someone other's (Bear's? Another Wolves'?) kill (Menel) and the Wolves' (or someone's of whom there are MORE THAN ONE => "those that she had spied on") kill of Durelin, meaning that probably these were the Wolves.

This are, in my opinion, the most logical views on what happened, though it's just my thoughts, so feel free to raise objections.

Whatever way it is, I think we can obtain quite a lot of information from the kills, being so many. I'm going to look through it and post something about it later.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 04:30 AM
Okay. Going through yesterDay:

The first ones to speak were Kath and xyzzy. Xyzzy is dead and innocent. Kath now is not, and I don't know how to feel about her. It might be xyzzy was right, or might be that Kath is just an innocent. Even from ToDay's posts I can't say anything that will sway my opinion on her more to the "good" or the "bad". She voted Durelin yesterDay, but if my theory is correct and the death of Durelin was indeed just simply "triggered", Kath didn't have necessarily to have any active part in it. Of course then, Durelin might just have targeted Kath with her nightly activity because of that (or partially because of that), but she might have targeted also someone else for another reason. The problem is, we don't know what exactly Durelin's ability was, though the most logical to me now seems that she had something like stealing other peoples' roles, but if she wanted to steal a Wolf's role, she instead was killed (it will be logical: you can steal e.g. a sword from a Ranger and so become a Ranger yourself, but you can't steal "wolvishness" from a wolf). I don't know if this leads anywhere, but again, if I'm correct, then I'd suppose Durelin targeted someone who seemed "interesting" to her and possible a Gifted, but lo, he turned to be a Wolf. It could have been as well Menel. But once again, this is pure speculation from my part and too many assumptions. The biggest problem is definitely, as someone mentioned here, that Durelin didn't say almost anything yesterDay. Had she spoken more, we could've used it.

Others who have joined the discussion later, were Shasta, of whom I am ambivalent pretty much similar as with Kath.
Rune is dead and innocent.
Noggins... well, as what I said before about his sneakiness, at the end of yesterDay and particularly his vote for Menel speaks somewhat better of him, as well as what he said toDay. His stances in the starting discussion were with Menel, but his later behavior seems better. I'm still not sure about him, but I feel better about him now.
The next to join in the discussion was Rikae. She has been suspected by Kath, but personally, I don't see anything wolfish on her. Her discussion with Boro was quite a "normal" starting discussion, and it felt quite Rikae-ish. For this, I'm leaving her be for now.
About Boro I feel quite good because of how he went against Menel right here on the start. I also wouldn't say he'd be a Werebear if we have one, since he was the first one to mention the possibility of having a Bear. Of course then, if we had two Wolf teams, his going after Menel will be something else (if they were opposite teams) and the Bear idea will be leading tracks away. But again, based on the narration I don't think two wolf teams are probable (only if it were some sort of competition between two teams of Dol Guldur to get the favor of Sauron or something like that). So I'm leaving Boro be as well.
Isabellkya seemed quite sinister from the very beginning. Her quasixyzzy (now spell this, Kath :D ) behavior could have been expected, but I spoke about her absences yesterDay. Also, it's nice how she appeared in the right moment to save Menel. Though it might have been unintentional, it surely casts not much nice light on her.

Huh. It's quite a lot of it for now, so I'm ending here. I'll be back yet, but later.

Volo
06-03-2007, 04:47 AM
Now declaring to vote in random (or random with a method) is the worst case. The second worst of the kind is to say you have a principle and you will follow it to the end like saying "I always vote for the loudmouths because I don't like to read so much" or whatever. Like Volo in a way seems to be doing and Menel in a way as well. When asked why did you vote for X you can always say "the principle I gave demanded it from me". The problem with this is that you kind of outsource the responsibility of your decisions to a principle.

Nogrod, thank you for pointing this out. Somehow I managed to forget this.

What I did yesterday was worse than the second way, it was pretty much of the forst case. A random throwaway vote. First of all because I didn't believe that tgwbs would be lynched. And that being the week side of my method, people won't take me seriously. And just on a side note, the "oppositism"-method would be a great cover for a cobbler, at least a cobbler that has some skill in the business.

The "logic" I use applies only to my own thoughts. I have a history of lynching only innocents with my own ideas. But I do believe that there are people who do find the Wolves.


To the game itself:

First I thought that there wouldn't be a Wolf hiding in the xyzzy voters. As I didn't think Menel was a Wolf and xyzzy was an easy lynch. Wolves could easily stay out of the frey.

Well, now that we find that Menel was a Wolf after all, it changes everything and there might be Wolves all over the place (i.e. voting both xyzzy and Menel.

I find Izzie's and Nogrod's votes the most interesting at the moment.

Izzie could well vote so to save a follow friend. At the same time using her newcomerness as a shield but then making a mistake in jumping out to save a friend.

Nogrod has admited using this trick earlier, to vote for a fellow Wolf and to make a tie just after another Wolf votes for somebody else to put him into the front. Well, anyway, to do like happened now.

Though Nogrod looks more suspicious than he usually does (his wierd first post and his first post on Day2 that moves the discussion to the roles and not who's guilty), I'll not throw him into the depth of the "suspicious"-list. (This because of the Wisdom).

I guess same goes with Izzie...


And on the contrary, Kath feels a bit too innocent...


EDIT: Xd with Legate

Volo
06-03-2007, 05:11 AM
Well, at least we'll find out if the Wolves have two kills (/ one kill + Bear) next Night.

Whover killed Menel did a good job. Especially if he/she is a Goodie. Let's hope that it is indeed a Goodie.

Whether Durelin's death was triggered or not, that we'll see next Night.

And Rune is the victim of the Wolves as the other two can't really be.

What can be done at the moment: Find who might have suspected Menel enough to kill him, if it's not a Bear, and who Durelin would want to steal from.

Although this can be done, I think it will probably be a waste of time. Especially as there have been a few good ideas about this already. (Hmm... Or am just imagining it.) Well, read Nogrod's post #132. It looks at the moment as either Nogrod or Kath is a Wolf, or both.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 05:11 AM
Okay. I have this far thought it a minor thing not worth correcting but as it seems to pop up in every other post here I think I need to do it.

So I have been supporting Menel or taking his side or my stances have been with him and whatnot and then I turned against him later? Now c'mon people. Let's stick to the truth, please.

Here's what I said.
Like Menel here spoke with the words of wisdom. Let the wolves talk and betray themselves with their own talk! That's what we believe in our village: good arguments! This has been the traditon in my village and I do believe in it still.

I hope Menel will also say more than that as just stating an self-evidency is not too much either...I can't see this as supporting or taking a side of someone as a person but as thinking that a basic idea brought forward is laudable.

Remember also what Menel actually had said at that time eg. what was the idea I thought was a good one.
Nowe, a Wolfe is a crafty creature. But some are more capable of hiding than others are. I say we force them oute into ye open ande get themme talking. A Wolfe can hide in a crowd and say little, but if forced to be loude, that same Wolfe may slippe.

In my next post I then formulated what was my position on the matter:
If there is a reason to lynch someone who is active, let's lynch her/him, but if not then let's pick the ones who try to ride for free. Okay?

So I'm a bit frustrated at this point with these conceptions that people seem to have as I have neither supported Menel or taken his side and thence not been able to turn against him from that kind of previous position.

'nuff said.

Volo
06-03-2007, 05:29 AM
Huh? Why the sudden self-defence? You weren't really accused of supporting Menel were you now? Or is Kath's post? Or paranoia?

Funnily, I was just going to say that it might be best not to go chosing who of the loud players are more suspicious than others and then lynch them. Still in the mood that some pressure should be put also on the quiet ones as pretty much everybody is at the moment flying under the radar. Me probably the first of all.

The Sixth Wizard
06-03-2007, 06:17 AM
I must go to bed, I will vote in the morning. However:

Izzy: Is the best new lead I think we have in Day 2. For aforementioned reasons.

Nogrod: Seems a bit jumpy. I don't think he's himself.

Kath: 'Too innocent', Volo? What does 'too innocent' mean? I think she has good additions and analyses and makes nice deductions.

Volo: I'm not sure about him yet.

Anyway, after all that indecisive rubbish, to bed with me!

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 06:19 AM
(only if it were some sort of competition between two teams of Dol Guldur to get the favor of Sauron or something like that).
Dol Guldur = Amon Lanc. ;) :p

It's difficult to find reasons why those who got killed got killed before we know who killed them (wolves, bear, something else).
Anyway I think Legate's idea about Durelin getting killed because of trying to steal a wolf's role is improbable. That's on contradiction with the narration I think. "Spied on things which she should not have seen and got hung for it." Had it been like Legate suggested, I think Sauce might have written something that had something to do with stealing, I don't know.

The idea of competing wolf teams is interesting, but were there two teams, how big our chances of winning would be? There are at least two kills a Night, but then on the other hand I guess the wolves could kill the members of the another team as well.

Menel was killed by
a) a bear or something that is not on our nor the wolves' side
b) an assassin or something that is on our side
c) a competing wolf team
but there's probably just one of those (unless we have a ranger who prevented yet one kill, but I think evil team consisting of three separate groups [or two + someone who is on our side but has a licence to kill] would be too much). I won't even try to include Durelin's death to all this, as no one supposedly knew anything of the nature of her role.

So there's one of the following:
a) a wolf team & a bear
b) a wolf team & an assassin
c) two competing wolf teams

Option a) If there's a wolf team and a bear, Menel was killed by the bear and Rune by the wolves. This doesn't sound too improbable. Rune was an easy target for the wolves, as he didn't leave much tracks. If the bear couldn't decide who to kill on Night 1, s/he could have chosen Menel if not for a better reason, his spelling. Surely people have sometimes killed for even worse reasons.
If there were wolves & the bear, I don't think the wolf team would consist of as many as four wolves - there are anyway two kills a Night. Was this true, we had two wolves to catch anymore, and the bear (or can we win even if the bear's alive?).

Option b) Menel was killed by the assassin and Rune by the wolves. Rune may have been killed for the same reason as in option a, but I doubt an assassin would have had such a bad reason to kill as spelling. Thus, the assassin should have suspected Menel already yesterDay - but s/he hasn't necessarily spoken about it at all. Concerning this: I am leaning to think that whomever disposed of Menel is on our side . . . Obviously it was someone who was highly suspicious of Menel all day, disappointed he wasn't lynched, and so decided to take care of what the village failed to do during the day.It sounds like you're saying the one who killed Menel suspected him loudly yesterDay. I'm certain the assassin wouldn't want to attract the wolves' attention this early - unless what we call assassin is a Hunter-like role who is sure s/he knows a wolf (or rather like Rune's assassin/spy role in the last game). So yes, I agree with your idea, but just in case someone understood it wrong (like I did when I read it for the first time), I'd like to make it clear the assassin probably wasn't among those that suspected Menel the most in their posts.
Anyway, if we're having an assassin around, there are probably also four wolves and a cobbler. If not, the teams would be unbalanced.

Option c) Two competing wolf teams would be an interesting choice. But the teams couldn't probably be very big - only two wolves / team I guess (three wolves / team would make six wolves, and that's way too much). Rune was killed by the team of Menel, Menel by the other team. This would mean one team still has two wolves, while the wolf of the other team stands alone.
I guess the teams don't know each other. I can't see why they should know. But it would be really interesting to see how a Cobbler managed with two competing teams (though probably there wouldn't be one). :D

I'm sorry if this is a complete mess (and here's anyway something missing, as I didn't include Durelin in the whole thing). I'll try to come up with something more useful later.

Volo
06-03-2007, 06:27 AM
Nice stuff Aganzir :) A bit of a repeat, but clearly put.

The idea of competing wolf teams is interesting, but were there two teams, how big our chances of winning would be? There are at least two kills a Night, but then on the other hand I guess the wolves could kill the members of the another team as well.
This is however something I'd toss aside quite quickly as it was already used in Gil-Galad's game.

Kath: 'Too innocent', Volo? What does 'too innocent' mean? I think she has good additions and analyses and makes nice deductions.
I don't trust my feelings. Read more in some of my first posts, or about any of my posts.

I am feeling more and more paranoid about Nogrod... :( Well, it's just a feeling...

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 06:30 AM
I know, I just felt I had to organize my thoughts somehow.

I'm off to eat something now.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 07:49 AM
This is however something I'd toss aside quite quickly as it was already used in Gil-Galad's game.
Well, that it has been used earlier doesn't mean it can't be used again.

What can be done at the moment: Find who might have suspected Menel enough to kill him, if it's not a Bear,
Well, I think that's not much of a good idea. If it's not a Bear, it's most likely an innocent assassin (nice combination of words) who is on our side, and an innocent certainly wouldn't want him to be discovered. Only a wolf (and not even a bear, since the answer would be himself) would advice such a thing. Should I start suspecting you, Volo?

Now to the debate of possible enemies. As we were speculating about two Wolf teams, I'll also note Mith's words from yesterDay:
I have had a look at the narrative and the only firm conclusion I drew was that there is more than one gifted "those among you", and more than one wolf - probably more than two since, I think it would be unusual and technically incorrect ot use some when referring to two. Two wolves in such a large village would be suprising but there is a precedent
It's quite interesting now, because as Aganzir said, if there were two wolf teams, I'd also expect no more than two wolves in each. Could it be possible that Mith were a member of one of these two teams and, having just one colleague, was "testing water" for what's around? I know, it will be pretty stupid for a Wolf, since they'd risk getting the other team's attention, as well as informing the village that they are just two. If it were not just a "scream of wonder", it's probably just another of my unbelievable constructs. :p

But actually, personally I feel still closest to the possibility that we have wolves (three?) who killed Rune, a Bear who killed Menel, and Durelin who was killed by Wolves in turn. About the "spying" thing, you are right, Aganzir... but why is then Durelin named a "thief" and not a "spy"? Also, how would you explain the things from collected from thefts in her house? The most logical explanation, in my opinion, would be then that she was something like a thief/spy, using one of two abilities every night, like it was in Rikae's game with Lommy. And it would be either stealing or spying someone (like a Seer?). If this were true, then it might actually help us with several things: the roles and the explanation of yesterday's kills. You see:

Either Durelin had just a spying ability and in that case we probably have lost our Seer :eek: Apart from that I really hope it's not the case, I don't even find it likely, since thief is thief and generally is not much interested in helping others.
Or she had this "combined" ability (it'll be quite good to be able to learn people's roles in combination with stealing them). The uses might have been even limited. In that case, I'd suppose at least one more "ordinary" Seer on our side, but to balance it, a Werebear. I think this will go together nicely, since Durelin wouldn't also be 100% "good" in this case, as well as the Bear.
Durelin could simply "steal", which, as you pointed out, is not much logical, as the narration indeed speaks more about watching something. In this case however, we could expect another role of some sort of assassin on our side to counterbalance Durelin's, slightly havoc-creating, role.


In the cases #1 and #3, I'd presume the existence of an assassin as likely (unless we have the party of combined roles like the last time, like thief/spy, ranger/assassin, whatever else). In #1 it would probably mean then that we are not having the "normal" Gifted roles (Ranger, Hunter, Seer) but some little twist (Assassin instead of R or H, Thief instead of a Seer). However, as I said earlier, I don't think it probable. In case #2, it will be logical that no assassin exists and then that it was a Bear who killed Menel. And it actually seems the most logical to me, because both the words of "thief" and "spying" point to some sort of a "mix role".

So that's about it. I hope it won't distract from hunting Wolves, but just my thoughts on that matter, and I think it might be useful. Even more we'll know tomorrow ( :rolleyes: ). Will be back yet.

Rikae
06-03-2007, 08:08 AM
Well, I am completely baffled at this point. A few random thoughts:

If Durelin had some sort of seerish ("spying") ability, isn't it highly likely Kath is guilty? Oh, well. Maybe she used that strange vote for cover of some kind...but still, it's the closest to a trail we have for her. I will have to go over Kath's posts with a fine toothed comb...so to speak...

Hmmm. Kath's reasoning on Lommy bothers me. Indecisiveness? "It could be this or it could be that"? Hasn't there been a phrase coined already..."Lommy flip-flopping" -? It seems too easy, to call Lommy "one to watch" for this reason..

I also have to disagree vehemently on Boro and Menel's arguing. One of my first thoughts on learning of Menel's wolvishness was that that little exchange had wolf-on-wolf argument written all over it. I will have to go back and see if I can be more specific- but it felt rather planned.

Aganzir's analysis makes no sense whatsoever, since she leaves out Durelin's killers. Um...somebody killed Durelin...I absolutely don't understand making a whole analysis based on the premise there were two kills, when there were three....

Menel's posts might be our best lead today. Sixth's treatment was far too simplified and inconclusive.

One more thing...Legate does not feel right, and I'm keeping my eye on him...and Izzy is working from the fly-under-the-radar wolf textbook, doing the minimum, posting vote counts & in character banter...

I'll try to look into things more in depth later toDay.

Giving off bad vibes:

Kath
Izzy
Legate
Boro
Aganzir

Slightly uneasy about:

Nogrod
TGWBS - Who seems oddly quiet, and should speak up.
Gil-Galad - Who is completely silent!
Mith
Morm
Sixth

Haven't tripped any alarms for me (possibly suspicious for that reason!):

Fea
Lommy
Volo
Shasta

There are several people who are managing to escape notice, and that's disturbing. We ignore someone at our peril.

EDIT: X'd with Leggy.

Rikae
06-03-2007, 08:17 AM
Legate's last post actually feels quite innocent and reasonable; I'm more inclined to trust him now.

Kath
06-03-2007, 08:31 AM
I'm slowly getting on with analysing yesterDay, but there are a couple of points Rikae brought up I wanted to answer:

If Durelin had some sort of seerish ("spying") ability, isn't it highly likely Kath is guilty? Oh, well. Maybe she used that strange vote for cover of some kind...but still, it's the closest to a trail we have for her. I will have to go over Kath's posts with a fine toothed comb...so to speak...
We started with a Day phase and usually any Seerish kind of activity takes place at Night so I think it rather unlikely that Durelin had any extra information at all, let alone on me.

Hmmm. Kath's reasoning on Lommy bothers me. Indecisiveness? "It could be this or it could be that"? Hasn't there been a phrase coined already..."Lommy flip-flopping" -? It seems too easy, to call Lommy "one to watch" for this reason..
No. Lommy is usually decisive within a post, and then by the time the next one appears she's changed her mind on a lot of things. That's flip-flopping. What I saw was her humming and hawing over people and not coming to any real decisions. To me this looks odd.

mormegil
06-03-2007, 08:46 AM
++Kath

Kath is Kath and generally I'm happier if she is simply dead, plus she deserves it.

Volo
06-03-2007, 08:50 AM
Well, I think that's not much of a good idea. If it's not a Bear, it's most likely an innocent assassin (nice combination of words) who is on our side, and an innocent certainly wouldn't want him to be discovered. Only a wolf (and not even a bear, since the answer would be himself) would advice such a thing. Should I start suspecting you, Volo?:eek: I said something like that? *slap* My mistake. We could all think about that quietly.

We started with a Day phase and usually any Seerish kind of activity takes place at Night so I think it rather unlikely that Durelin had any extra information at all, let alone on me.
But she would dream of you last Night. Whatever she did, she probably caused her own death by it, targeting a Wolf. That is why you are suspicious, Kath.

Hmm...

Thinlómien
06-03-2007, 09:50 AM
I hate this half-werewolfing... I'm glad though that I will have no online-problems after toDay.

Last Night? If you ask me, Menel was killed by an assassin or a werebear, Rune was killed by the wolves and Durelin did because she did something. I mean, if she was able to steal someone's role or see things or whatever and there was one or more villager that she shouldn't spy, or she'd die. That's what I think.

Volo, to be honest you slightly annoy me. (Even though your ":(" was quite heart-breaking... :D) I never know whether you suspect or suspect people, if you know what I mean. Your tactics give you a perfect cover. That's not a good thing because others can't figure out anything about you nor decide are you innocent or not. Others have raised good points on the issue and I won't be repeating them. There's one more, minor point however. It's always easier for wolves to come up with people they can reasonably think innocent than people who they could reasonably hold suspicious. So, by suspecting innocent-looking people a Volf could get an all-too-big drop of sincerity to his posts.

~*~

Now, I guess I should say something about everyone.

Fea's posts seem quite self-centered and that makes me slightly uneasy. But otherwise she seems quite innocent so I'm not too worried about her.

I'm not wary of Boro anymore (or at least not much). His posts late yesterDay were very innocentish in my opinion.

Weirdly, TGWBS doesn't make me want to campaign against him. I don't know what to think of this.... :p This far seems innocent-ish.

Legate keeps making sense but he doesn't quite sit right with me. When reading his posts I get the feeling that he sometimes says very little new in his posts, just chatters verbiousily and seems quite odd at times. Also, his general attitude reminds me of that of wolf-Legate's...

Mith makes me uneasy too. Although contributing (especially to the narration-discussion) she seems a bit non-committal and wrong. I can't quite phrase it, but somehow she does not seem like her normal self.

Kath does not sit right with me either. She seems all too jumpy - somewhat nervous - for her normal self. That is quite weird, since normally - be she ordo, gifted or wolf - she keeps her calm admirably well. Maybe she is a Black Beorning? I dunno, she just seems odd...

Volo's playing style worries me, whatever he is. I don't think he's particularly suspicious, but he has been throwing in weird comments and doesn't seem too sincere in his comments (except his "suspicions")...

I can't form a clear picture of Nogrod. He could be either way.

Morm is weird.

Shasta is mildly suspicious but not enough to make me consider voting him.

Izzie seems wolvish for her vote but I can see her as a puzzled newbie as well. I don't know.

Sixth seems perfectly normal which does not, however, mean he's innocent.

Aganzir also makes me slightly uneasy for no particular reason.

Rikae seemed pretty innocent yesterDay and she still does. She does not alarm me particularly, but I'm not ready to consider her innocent either as she has been somewhat shady toDay.

Gil - would it help if we paid you?

Funny, usually my problem is that no one makes me very wary, now my porblem seems to be I suspect too many people... And I should vote soon and I have no idea who I will vote.

Thinlómien
06-03-2007, 10:12 AM
What should we to with Gil? He's basically dead weight to us. It would be good to lynch him, because if he's a wolf, we're in big bad trouble since there are no modkills. If we want to lynch him, we should lynch him preferably toDay as soon it's too late with everybody already having formed strong suspicions. That's why I think it would be good to lynch Gil toDay, but there's one big BUT.

It looks like we're going to lose at least two people each Night. In a situation like that, such a blind shot as lynching Gil might be fatal. With a big number of nightly kills, the village lynch should not go wrong too often if we want to win. That's why a shot in the dark is dangerous. It seems that whatever we do with Gil might prove fatal... (Oh, I so much wish he'd come here and start being active...)

Thinlómien
06-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Okay.

++Kath

Two more reasons to vote her.

1) This seems just like what a werebear would say to divert the attention from herself/her role: So ... how exactly did Menel die? I thought at first that it was down to Rune 'cause I skim-read and saw the word hunter but he was just an ordo. Is it possible we have some kind of 'Golden Dagger' role again?

2) Her usual, helpful tone seems somewhat forced this time. And as to that jumpiness I wrote about, I think wolf-Kath is usually more jumpy than an innocent Kath, though neither of them tend to be jumpy. And innocent Kath usually gives better grounds to her suspicions, no offense... :)

Let's hope we get the werebear (if there even is one - I've noticed I keep assuming so and that's certainly something one should avoid! :eek: ) or a wolf. I wouldn't be surprised if Kath was either of them.

I won't be back toDay. Good night!

Thinlómien
06-03-2007, 10:23 AM
Just to clear it up: I concluded that there are more cons than pros to lynching Gil as there is the possibility of him starting to play more actively.

But now I'm really going. Bye.

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-03-2007, 10:25 AM
I wrote all of this yesterday before I realized I was out of time to post. I'll post more after I catch up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir88
You get in their heads and get them doubting, aye, make them as lost to knowing our thoughts as we are to knowing who they are.

Bienvenido a mi vida. Work together? Quote:
Originally Posted by Mith
Fea's game had a lot of players but only two - and no gifted. Unless my memory plays tricks...

It doesn't. I chose one wolf and a friend of mine chose the other one. Eomer and Mormegil. Eomer killed Morm the first night, the village killed Eomer shortly thereafter, and I continued to choose kills via coin flip up until there was only one person left (Saucie), and declared that person the winner. In the final dramatic death scene, the phantom died (with a kiss), Mithalwen died (from a sword?), and the Dark Lady (yours truly) killed herself, leaving a very confused sole survivor.

One should never assume that the mod is a nice person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy
I can guess at what roles do from skimming other games here. But cobbler? Ranger?

I was in the first ever game here and numerous that came after. I'm still lost on half the roles. I recently made B88 explain the role of cobbler to me. I'm still only partially sure of what it is. The Ranger picks one person per NIGHT to protect. If the wolf chooses the person the Ranger picked, the person lives. The Ranger is a wonderful role, really. Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
Anyway, I think Mith is making too much out of nothing.

I've come to hold the belief that Mith never makes too much out of nothing. I agree with her about eying Saucie's word use, given my knowledge of him. He's a fantastic writer as well as being a loyer and a generally wiley fella. Since he outright told us he'd be adding things to the narrative, it makes absolute and unarguable sense to eye every word he says with critical attention. Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasta
I'm not sure I understand your point, Nogrod. Logic is logic, isn't it?

Have you ever compared my logic to that of anybody else? Logic is never just logic. Two people can take the same exact topic and, following perfect logic, argue two perfectly opposing points, both being right. Logic is based on a set of assumptions that may not be shared by the rest of the group. My logic is not yours, Noggie's is not mine. Quote:
Originally Posted by TGWBS
Why discuss potential roles (bears etc.) when we'll find out tonight? Why discuss the intro? - I doubt it will provide anything useful. All this is a distraction from wolf-hunting.

I rather expect the intro will only prove helpful after we've learned more, if then. Like reading any other story and going back to realize that the signs were there all along. It doesn't come together until you hit a climactic moment, usually.

Though I do recommend discussing potential roles. For one thing, it clarifies some of the more obscure roles for people who have never gamed with them. For another, the roles people suggest might tell us things.

Volo
06-03-2007, 10:28 AM
Hmm... Been thinking ovet the three cases of Kath, Nogrod and Rikae, again.

Case Kath deffinitely feels most innocent of them all. Except that she doesn't look the same as the innocent Kath I know, not enough praise. ;)

Case Nogrod looks the most suspicious. His posts are all extremely amusing and make you smile, but that is the problem. He reminds me of the Wolf Nogrod, a lot of wise words that in truth have very little meaning.
#9 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=523635#post523635): amusing, but for those that go for cobbler-hints, this seems to be full of them. Two far-out suspicions, a bit too brave maybe, but that is exactly what Nogrod can be. Ok, I do see that they are sent to two quiet players and might *cough* encourage them to speak. The part about Menel isn't interesting.
Then there are many posts that speak for his innocence, especially #91 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=523785#post523785). That feels genuine.
A few good points come next. Haha, funny, how I first suspected him for not having good points in every post like in my first game when he was a Wolf. :D
But then comes #111 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=523819#post523819) and completely baffles me. He pretty much says the same thing to every vote. "Could be Wolf or Innocent." The tone changes for a few players, but this post genuinely feels like a filler.
His vote also makes me wonder, especially if Izzie is a Wolf. (Or then my first game just left a too strong impression.) A good trick, to vote just after a fellow and make it look like a cross-post tie.
On Day2, he is lucky to be the first one to tell his thoughts on the narration. I don't really know how to take it... I do like his idea about Kath though.
#144 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=523915#post523915) is a wierd post of explaining own actions. It looks very jumpy, as there is no real accusation on the matter, or even small accusation for the matter.

Oh, damn. I really wrote a too long post there... Anyway, I tried saying that from a "neutral perspective", to give others something to think on, as I myself don't trust my feelings enough yet. I don't want to vote Nogrod for just my own thoughts.

Case Rikae. Well, I had something I wanted to say about her, but I forgot... :o Looks innocent, altough a bit defencive. I'll say more if remember what to say.

At the moment I'm most inclined to vote Kath out of the three. Nogrod's point about Durelin going after her is one of the main motivations.

That doesn't mean I'll certainly vote Kath. Some quiet person, like Izzie could be one... I'll see to the rest and go eat something, I'm starving.


EDIT: Xd with everything since my last post.

Volo
06-03-2007, 10:36 AM
Volo, to be honest you slightly annoy me. (Even though your "" was quite heart-breaking... ) I never know whether you suspect or suspect people, if you know what I mean. Your tactics give you a perfect cover. That's not a good thing because others can't figure out anything about you nor decide are you innocent or not. Others have raised good points on the issue and I won't be repeating them. There's one more, minor point however. It's always easier for wolves to come up with people they can reasonably think innocent than people who they could reasonably hold suspicious. So, by suspecting innocent-looking people a Volf could get an all-too-big drop of sincerity to his posts.
Haha. ha... Well, I really messed that one up. I realized after deciding that this is exactly that, a perfect cover for a Baddie. But, since I posted about this in the Admin-thread before we got the roles, I think it is cleared.

I don't think we should waste a vote on Gil-Galad be he Wolf or Innocent. If he survives to the end, we can just say that "We won't give you any credit for not even being present :p".

Volo
06-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Ok, let's be honest. Main suspects:
Kath as the Bear.
Nogrod as a Wolf.

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-03-2007, 10:42 AM
It might be safe to assume at least to begin with that the one (or more) who killed Menel were goodies.
Maybe. I'm remembering in the last game I modded that one of my wolves killed the other the first night. While that doesn't seem to apply to this game (the bad guys can seemingly converse), it's possible (I think) that there can be different 'breeds' of bad guys that might not know each others' identities. Menel could have been an accident, he could have been strategic (a decoy, or a martyr)...

So we could have goodies that can kill. But the two others then? The easy answer is that we have wolves and the werebear.
So what exactly is a were-bear? And has 'thief' ever been used as a role before?

Trust me or not I do not care but Mith is innocent I tell you. Now on to Fea another one I can read a bit better than most
I agree about Mith. I'm curious what you'll have to say about me, since I've been unhelpful and distant (unavoidable) thus far. You really can read me better than most. It's a lovely change from the people who find me inscrutable.

Nogrod: Seems a bit jumpy. I don't think he's himself.
I agree he seems jumpy. I disagree that he doesn't seem like himself. He merits watching as a general thing, but at the moment, he doesn't concern me much. To me, he's the sort wherein if we leave him around, he'll be as helpful as he always is, but if it gets to a point near the end where he is a bad guy, he'll probably give himself away. I'm vaguely certain that he's someone we ought to keep around for a while. We can always kill him later, but we can't always replace his helpful activity.

]++Kath

[/b]Kath is Kath and generally I'm happier if she is simply dead, plus she deserves it.[/QUOTE]

Hilarious and probably true. I've missed working 'with' you guys.

[QUOTE=Lommy]Fea's posts seem quite self-centered and that makes me slightly uneasy. But otherwise she seems quite innocent so I'm not too worried about her.
Don't worry, hunny, I'm always self-centered.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 10:47 AM
I am here - sorry to be so late but err domestic politics dominate weekends and this was the earliest I could get to the moot. While there aren't so many posts clearly a lot has happened over night and I need to get my head round it all. But it is nice to know I was right about Menel ....

Back as soon as I have had a readthrough....

Volo
06-03-2007, 10:58 AM
...but I'd still rather not vote a person who talks enough to make slips.

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 10:59 AM
I agree with Volo about not lynching Gil. It would feel so useless to waste a Day's lynch on him if he's innocent, especially since we have no double lynchings. I don't know if this is a stupid thing to ask, but if we have an Assassin around, should s/he consider killing Gil if he won't start contributing (normally he would be modkilled toDay anyway if he didn't start speaking)?
If Gil's a wolf, we'll never catch him, but at the moment he's nothing but dead weight as he doesn't speak nor vote.

Rikae, I made the analysis mainly to help me organize my thoughts, and including Durelin's death in it would only have made me more confused. I'm afraid the analysis is not very useful without her in it, but I didn't feel myself capable of including her.

edit: xed with Volo

Volo
06-03-2007, 11:07 AM
I don't know if this is a stupid thing to ask, but if we have an Assassin around, should s/he consider killing Gil if he won't start contributing (normally he would be modkilled toDay anyway if he didn't start speaking)?
Hmm... Good idea. At least that would help us figure out the roles. If we do have a Good Assassin, we could then discuss the kills during Day. And this means that the Assassin doesn't need to be revealed. :)

Volo
06-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Or maybe no. Let's not talk about the Assassin, as there is more probably a Bear and talking about the Assassin will get him/her to reveal. (And because I can't really suspect Kath if there is an Assassin :rolleyes: )

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Well I have read but it isn't really helping yet. Durelin's thief role intrigues me and there may be some aspect of it that explains her attention seeking behaviour yesterday but I guess we will have to wait for the end to find out the full details.

Nevertheless her attack on Kath is interesting. Unlikely perhaps to be based on knowledge since we started with a day phase. And thief is not a particularly glorious title for a "good" (though neither is assassin). So I am probably being thick in not quite seeing Durelin's attack on Kath as an absolute indication to
lynch Kath. Either Durelin received some priveleged information at the start of the game or it was random or pure mischief making. But the fact
of her death would seem to put her on the side of the angels...

Volo
06-03-2007, 11:46 AM
*slap* Big mistake! I was talking nonsense there as Kath can't be the Bear and spied on by Durelin. She would have to be a Wolf, and that feels less probable. :/

There are so many flying over my radar that I feel very useless now.

Kath
06-03-2007, 11:47 AM
Love you too morm. :rolleyes:

Aganzir - defends Fea. Had Menel down as innocent but with it being so early in the game those without extra knowledge couldn't have known he was a wolf. But then, she got xyzzy and Rune down as innocents correctly too. Chance or something more? Actually I think it is just chance. Aganzir is a fine werewolf player from what I've seen of her and I don't think that if she is a wolf she'd give such a 'he's innocent' statement about Menel. Thinks Shasta and Volo are the ones that look most suspicious and could vote for the former.

Guy - feels Noggie, Boro and Rune are innocent all with some reasoning behind it. I may disagree with it but it makes him look innocent.

Lommy - says she can't really find anyone to suspect bar xyzzy and Boro, and the cases against those two aren't good. Does no one else feel that she's a bit off? I usually find that she feels very innocent, admittedly even when she is a wolf, so this seems odd to me.

Mith - does agree that loud players are more useful than quiet ones, but says it's too early to really be worrying about it. Says she was mentioning me rather than suspecting me though I might still be evil, but it's the hasty votes that merit the most attention. She was the one that noted the possible meaning within Sauce's narration, picking out some pretty interesting and possible points.

Volo - argues against the voting for the unhelpful or quiet players. Odd statement about Lommy always voting xyzzy with no reason when she had just avoided doing that before turning that on it's head and saying that actually he does think xyzzy is suspicious. It isn't the flip flop that I don't like but rather the comment to Lommy. She had specifically avoided voting xyzzy for no reason so why say it? Decides he won't vote Nogrod because when he looks guilty he's generally innocent. Well, he said he was going to use odd logic. Which apparently includes defending me. I don't think Volo has ever been on my side before! Says Rikae feels like wolf-Rikae so he won't vote her either. This is actually quite irritating this new tactic, mostly because he isn't giving any reasons for his suspicions. Uses his mad logic to think that Rikae and guy are the ones that seem suspicious, but says he doesn't want to vote for guy. Then votes guy. Interesting flip flop, perhaps he's taking lessons from Lommy. I hope Volo starts to put some more understandable logic in soon, I'm having trouble following him.

Legate - says only later in the game will he advocate killing the quiet ones but does mention that Izzie turned up and then disappeared again which he finds irresponsible. It's an odd word to use but then Legate is prone to using long words. Thinks xyzzy innocent but finds Noggie, Lommy and Menel suspicious. Looks pretty innocent to me so far. Weird post where he first says that he thinks lynching the quiet ones early is a good idea, but then turns around completely and says actually no it isn't. This feels more like a train of thought post to me, where as he was writing he changed his mind. Only thing is that it started off as a defense against guy saying he was in fact arguing against Rune when previously he'd said he was agreeing with him. And then he says why not lynch morm, totally getting the wrong stick of guy's argument (at least the way I see it). Not sure if this is confused innocent or twisting wolf.

Rikae - defends herself against my earlier suspicion pretty calmly, and then adds on her own suspicion of me. In fairness it's probably merited since my suspicion of her was based on a readthrough that had only taken tone into account not content. Says xyzzy could be worth voting for but doesn't really seem to think he's suspicious which is a bit odd.

Boro - is somewhat suspicious of Mith for mentioning that the first poster has been found to be wolvish in the past. There was once a summary looking at that which I think found that the first poster could be pretty much anything, so Boro might actually have something there. I always find it odd when Mith uses statistical type arguments to support what she's saying, it doesn't feel like something she'd do. Still, the last time I said that she ended up being the Seer or something, so I'll let it go. Says to let everyone do their own thing as if we come up with a plan it will give the wolves an advantage since they'll know what we're doing. This is a good point. Plans are only ever useful if you have known innocents and Gifted's to ensure the wolves can't use it to their own ends, and hopefully we won't have either for a while yet, so long as we don't go and force a Gifted to reveal so early.

Menel - voted xyzzy.

Fea - makes a lot of lists. I never can get a read on her. Votes xyzzy because she has no one better to vote for, suggesting that her list where she put Mith and morm as 'blood-stained' wasn't really based on anything.

Rune - says he won't vote Menel as he often does and finds him innocent, but that he's less worried about suspecting Boro because he turns out to be guilty more often. Then votes Durelin for no real reason. The narration seems to suggest Rune was attacked by the wolves, and really it does make sense. He'd not said much, mostly commenting on the quiet/loud debate and making non-commital comments about people. No trail.

Guy - votes Durelin after previously using his 'random number generator' to end up with her name and then said he was doing it in order to lynch the quiet ones. Coming up with two reasons just to randomly lynch someone seems odd to me.

Ok I'm being called off to eat dinner now and then I believe we have a film to watch. I've got to post 90 now and I may finish this when I get back but to be honest I'm getting bored of it so I can't imagine how dull everyone else is finding it. I'll probably just try and organise my thoughts as to what I think of who. Should be back around 10.

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 11:52 AM
I also have to disagree vehemently on Boro and Menel's arguing. One of my first thoughts on learning of Menel's wolvishness was that that little exchange had wolf-on-wolf argument written all over it. I will have to go back and see if I can be more specific- but it felt rather planned.~Rikae
Oh Rikae, I felt so good about you yesterday, but saying things like that could just end up getting you killed. I have a feeling it's going to end up happening like this...who ever (of us two) dies first the village will quickly know the purpose of the other (innocent? or evil?) I'm of course hoping you end up dead before me, therefor everyone will know what side I'm on.

It sounds like you're saying the one who killed Menel suspected him loudly yesterDay.~Aganzir
Pah, I would never be that blunt!
unless what we call assassin is a Hunter-like role who is sure s/he knows a wolf
That would be quite a role indeed! I wish I had one, like that, so interesting and an outright joy to mess around with.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 12:05 PM
Menel - began the loud/quiet wolf debate. While it's great for us in terms of numbers it's almost a shame that he died so quickly, as we don't really know which side of the coin he was on.

:

Huh -wasn't werewolfe clear enough... Durelin's the puzzle -at least for me...

Volo
06-03-2007, 12:08 PM
Huh -wasn't werewolfe clear enough... Durelin's the puzzle -at least for me...
I think she refers to whether Menel would like the quiet die or not.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 12:13 PM
Oh I see..that makes sense - that it might indicate if his co-wolves were at either extreme... ok ..

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 12:22 PM
Volo, I would greatly appreciate if you could enlighten me on two things.

Firstly. Why do you think Kath can't be a bear if there is an assassin around / Kath can't be a bear spied on by Dury and to top that Kath is less probably a wolf *than a bear*? I just can't follow your reasoning here...

To me Kath looks suspicious because she feels like one who is not playing straight but has some evil intentions. It's all the same to me whether she's a wolf or a bear or a godzilla. If she's a baddie of a sort or another and we lynch her for that it's fine to me. And I can't see a reason to exclude one kind of evil from her yet.

Secondly. When do you use your reverse-way and when not or do you use it all the time? It's a bit hard to get a grip on your posts when one can't be sure what is it that you mean when you say you suspect someone or not.

EDIT: added the *-part* to underline what I meant

Rikae
06-03-2007, 12:34 PM
Oh Rikae, I felt so good about you yesterday, but saying things like that could just end up getting you killed. I have a feeling it's going to end up happening like this...who ever (of us two) dies first the village will quickly know the purpose of the other (innocent? or evil?) I'm of course hoping you end up dead before me, therefor everyone will know what side I'm on.How so? You leave out the possibility that I am a misguided innocent, accusing another ordo...
actually, this statement raises you from "yellow" to "orange" alert on my radar. It's just the sort of thing I would say, if I were a wolf and you suspected me.

About Kath...having been a wolf with her before, I'm beginning to think she's a bit too active to be evil now. In that game she posted enough to seem helpful, but nothing of this kind of volume. Of course, she's certainly smart enough to change her style for just that reason, and the tense feeling pervades even her lengthy posts.

I'm opposed to killing Gil for the time being. Chances are he's innocent...I have to think that if he were a wolf, he would participate...so we're better off not reducing our numbers unnecessarily. He will likely end up as wolf-fodder if we don't (safe kill, no trail) and we'll have a chance of doing something more useful during the day.

I really cannot shake the uneasy feeling that TGWBS and/or Sixth is attracting too little attention adn possibly getting away with murder. I'm not sure why. They have both been smooth - commenting without impacting the group consciousness - differently, of course, but they both seem ... to want to be forgotten.

If I must trust someone, for now, I place conditional trust in Lommy & Legate - who feel sincere -...as well as Fea and Morm... odd, but innocently so.

Mith doesn't worry me at this point, but I'm not confident in it.

Aganzir's explanation for her incomplete analysis seemed shaky and poorly thought out. Not capable? Sorry, Agan, but you can't play the newbie card - you've simply shown too much talent.

Where is Izzy?

At this point I'm willing to vote for either Boromir or Aganzir...or possibly Kath. I wouldn't be adverse to an anti-TGWBS or anti-Sixth campaign, either, if one should arise.
I have the same problem as Lommy in this game...too many suspects. (Maybe that means there are lots of baddies?)

One other thought that came to me...is it possible that Durelin's role was sort of a reciprocal version of a hunter? IE, whoever she spies on shares her fate...if she's killed, they die, and vice versa?

EDIT - X'd with Noggie.

Volo
06-03-2007, 12:34 PM
Good to see you back, Nogrod. :)

Secondly. When do you use your reverse-way and when not or do you use it all the time? It's a bit hard to get a grip on your posts when one can't be sure what is it that you mean when you say you suspect someone or not.
I'm thinking on dropping the whole thing. When I said "feel" I didn't really suspect. When I said "suspect" I really suspected. So, I suspect you and Kath. Though not enough to dare vote for either, yet. Mostly of all, because I tend to be wrong, and because I haven't really formed opinions on other players.

Firstly. Why do you think Kath can't be a bear if there is an assassin around / Kath can't be a bear spied on by Dury and to top that Kath is less probably a wolf? I just can't follow your reasoning here...
It all contradicts my views of the preveous Night if Kath was spied on by Durelin and is the Bear. I can't be sure (though I pretty much am), but I think that Durelin was killed for spying the Wolves. (SPM, having a good laugh?)
Otherwise Kath can be whatever evil you want to name. She just feels more Bear than Wolf, and I'm not using "feel" in the annoying way.


I do find Lommy genuine.


EDIT: Xd with Rikae

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 12:47 PM
One other thought that came to me...is it possible that Durelin's role was sort of a reciprocal version of a hunter? IE, whoever she spies on shares her fate...if she's killed, they die, and vice versa?
.

I just googled "Thief werewolf" and Wikipedia said that they steale role.

But that doesn't quite fit with the narration. Of course Sauce may have his own interpretation - and Wikipedia is not infallible.

Izzy seems to be a Gil-stitute.. which wouldn't be so bad if we didn't also, in theory also have Gil. :rolleyes:

Shasta hasn't returned either after supplying a vote summary has he?

TGWBS' absence was announced.

It is very quiet and I would have expected this was a reasnable time for people both side of the pond to be active .... but maybe they are indeed not absent :rolleyes:

Rikae
06-03-2007, 12:54 PM
Guy may have a reason for his absence, but when he did speak, he still seemed slippery. I don't know. If I'm not eaten or assassinated tonight, I'll keep an eye on him.

I suppose it's a bit soon to assume MIA is Izzy's style...if i'm correct, this is her first game. I was largely missing or tardy in my second game, before I realised that WW are serious obligation! :D If you're around, Izzy, please speak up.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 12:56 PM
This one about Kath still and then I think I try to get down to looking at other things for a change.About Kath...having been a wolf with her before, I'm beginning to think she's a bit too active to be evil now. In that game she posted enough to seem helpful, but nothing of this kind of volume. Of course, she's certainly smart enough to change her style for just that reason, and the tense feeling pervades even her lengthy posts.Funny that you mentioned this as my eyes just caught this one from Kath's last mammouth-analysis:Had Menel down as innocent but with it being so early in the game those without extra knowledge couldn't have known he was a wolf. But then, she got xyzzy and Rune down as innocents correctly too. Chance or something more?Now what is this??? I might understand an innocent newbie saying something like this and then learn from it for the next time. I mean this is just impossible with Kath...

For those not experienced enough the following: Rule #6 for innocents - If you think you find someone acting or behaving like a gifted shut your mouth and do not share it openly to the baddies to notice (it's possible they have not noticed it).

And anyhow. Being right with two persons innocence in a village were there are something like 16 innocents and 4 baddies (or something not very far from that ratio) it's not an actual feat to name two innocents... :p

Now who does this kinds of things? The cobbler obviously does them. So could it be Kath is a cobbler after all? So we have a cobbler in this village as well?

I do agree with Rikae that Kath is experienced enough to change her style when the previous one looks dangerous to her. And I also think that there was some pressure gathering over her because of her normal "be intelligent but under-radar" -tactics in this particular game and thence she changed... into this sisyfosian errand of making a page-by-bage full analysis of the whole game. :eek:

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 01:19 PM
It all contradicts my views of the preveous Night if Kath was spied on by Durelin and is the Bear. I can't be sure (though I pretty much am), but I think that Durelin was killed for spying the Wolves.Oh, forgive me. I forgot the them-thing. Yeah. If Dury died because of "thieving" Kath (whatever it is) then Kath is a part of a more than one person baddie-league.

But if Kath is a cobbler then there needs to be some other reason for Dury's death...

Funny. I actually started to follow Kath more seriously only toDay because of the events during the Night to which our only clue (concerning Dury) she was. And this closer reading has led me to think she's a cobbler which kind of destroys any possibility of Kath being related to Dury's death in the first place. :D

Anyway. This far I think lynching Kath would be a good thing. She's not playing to us delegates but to the evil purposes. At least she's my strongest candidate now.

Sorry about returning to the Kath-issue but I only now noticed Volo's explanation...

Now to other things.

the guy who be short
06-03-2007, 01:27 PM
I have just got net access and have read up to the end of page 4. I don't know how long I'll be able to stay, but I thought I'd point this out, from Wikipedia:

The Thief may remove [a] person's role entirely That's what durelin was. It now seems unlikely that this MADE the wolves kill her. It seems more of a coincidence.

Also, I was wary about Legate yesterday towards the end of the day but never got a chance to post. If I have time, I'll go back and explain why.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 01:27 PM
To be fair I think Kath may have more time on her hands at the moment.

But I am beginning to worry a bit about Kath. Now she says she doesn't like it when I use "statistical type arguments" but the last time she suspected me I turned out to be the Seer. The last time I also told her I was an accountant so analysing numbers , it isn't exactly out of character - any more than analysing words is. However saying that something has happened without figures is only in the loosest sense a statistical argument.

I am not a Seer this time but given that I did my best to get the known wolf , Menel, lynched , making this tenuous connection does strike me as a bit cobblerish.

I may be making something out of nothing again though - but Kath, historically, is the player I find hardest to read. And I know how good she can be at being bad which may colour my judgement with there being so much feeling against her. And then there is the Durelin thing to factor in... and now I am getting hung up on this and I am beginning to run low on time.... gah...

the guy who be short
06-03-2007, 01:30 PM
P.S. Thus far Rikae and Kath "feel" innocent, while Isabellya's vote worries me. That is all.

Rikae
06-03-2007, 01:42 PM
Now what is this??? I might understand an innocent newbie saying something like this and then learn from it for the next time. I mean this is just impossible with Kath...

For those not experienced enough the following: Rule #6 for innocents - If you think you find someone acting or behaving like a gifted shut your mouth and do not share it openly to the baddies to notice (it's possible they have not noticed it). Well, Nogrod, while I have thought Kath rather suspicious, it seemed pretty obvious here that what Kath is suggesting is not that Aganzir was a seer, but that a lupine Aganzir tied her pack-mate Menel with two innocents to make him look pure as the driven snow in the event of the others' death.

EDIT: By "tied", I mean, of course, linked. The idea being others will associate the three because Aganzir did, possibly without thinking about it.

the guy who be short
06-03-2007, 01:49 PM
Looking back with today's knowledge, I can't find whatever it was that made me suspec Legate. In fact, he seems quite sensible and trustable now, which makes me wary of those who voiced suspicion of him today: Lommy, but also Rikae and Kath, whom I have completely changed my mind about now!

Especially this: Only thing is that it started off as a defense against guy saying he was in fact arguing against Rune when previously he'd said he was agreeing with him. And then he says why not lynch morm, totally getting the wrong stick of guy's argument (at least the way I see it). (Kath on Legate)
Referring to:

btw why don't you lynch morm then? It will be the most logical, because he didn't appear yet! (<=this is a joke, of course, but it has logic in it: if I were for the idea you present here, I'd lynch him, since he didn't say anything, point.)
Clearly marked as a joke, and yet she fails to put this on her analysis. In conclusion, my views have gone topsy turvy: now Legate good, Kath bad!

I also do think that Menel would probably try to get us to lynch the quiet if his fellow(s) were loud. So we should be looking for (a) loud wolfie(s).

the guy who be short
06-03-2007, 01:54 PM
++KATHWIN

Because she's probably a wolf, and nobody is saying much so I want to go do something else now. :D

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 01:55 PM
On the subject of worrying votes- why did Nogrod leave his vote so late - given that in the event of a tie the first gets the chop. He literally left it to the last minute. I know he often does but with fixed votes there is less reason too. A ot of brinkmanship going on?

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 01:55 PM
Well, Nogrod, while I have thought Kath rather suspicious, it seemed pretty obvious here that what Kath is suggesting is not that Aganzir was a seer, but that a lupine Aganzir tied her pack-mate Menel with two innocents to make him look pure as the driven snow in the event of the others' death.That's perfectly sensible interpretation of Kath's post. Better than mine indeed.

Admittedly there aren't many who think Aganzir suspicious in this village but I guess everyone agrees that she is both smart and cabable. It is a different thing whether Agan is innocent as such but for a cobbler any smart players who are generally thought innocentish are the ones the cobbler would love to drag down...

Thank's to your correction I think Kath looks even more cobblerish right now.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 01:58 PM
That is a bit peverse TGWBS considering you just said she seemed innocent!

Rikae
06-03-2007, 02:00 PM
Actually, I rather suspect Agan. This is what puts me in a difficult spot...Aganzir and Kath both look questionable to me. As do you, for that matter.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 02:02 PM
Oh I see you explained .... sort of... must stop reading backwards through the thread .. keep getting hold of sticks by the wrong end...

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 02:03 PM
The ones of who I have something to say.

Boromir - I'm ready to consider him innocent. During these two Days he has done nothing that should raise my suspicions. I don't think he would have attacked Menel like that if they were both wolves (of course there's a possibility of two different wolf teams, but he isn't very wolvish).

Isabellkya - Didn't agree about lynching quiet ones yet voted xyzzy for not exactly coming back and posting after his first post, when xyzzy and Menel were the only ones in danger of lynching. A first-timer wolf or just a confused newbie? I'm wary about her.

Kath - I'm torn about her. I found her suspicious yesterDay, but toDay she has been looking innocent and came up with some very good points (eg. the possibility of Menel's fellow wolves being quiet players). But. She has also been looking guilty - not as often as she has looked innocent, but especially there are some things in her analyses (I don't remember what exactly, I can check later). She has done two analyses toDay and come across as helpful, but I don't know if a wolf in danger of lynching would make analyses and such and try to confuse villagers before its death.

Legate - YesterDay I thought he didn't say particularly anything, ie. didn't seem to have opinions about people, even though he spoke a lot about possible strategies. But then he voted Menel and that made him look innocent - until the beginning of this Day when someone came up with the possibility of two wolf groups. That has made me suspect him again, but he's not one of my top suspects.

Rikae - On Day 1 she suspected Kath the most from the very beginning, but voted Xyzzy. I don't understand her statement that if Durelin had some sort of a seerish ability, Kath is probably guilty. She said Menel's posts may be our best lead toDay - surprisingly these two never even mentioned each other.

Lommy - She couldn't form a clear opinion of Menel because of his spelling. When reading it I remember thinking "now that's a good way to avoid mentioning a fellow wolf in analysis on the first Day, were they wolves". But I thought Menel and she were both innocent. Now we know Menel was a wolf, and Lommy hasn't said or done anything very suspicious toDay, but this still got me wondering. Then on the other hand she has suspected almost everyone - someone who has played more than I with her please tell if Lommy-wolf would do that?

Volo - I found something worth noticing in his behaviour.
When someone says he has been behaving suspiciously, he thanks them for pointing it out, saying he has forgotten about it and then tells what he has done wrong, in a regretful way. If he's a wolf, it's too easy for him to make himself look innocent by doing that - confessing he's been wrong and being sorry.
See posts #142 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523911&postcount=142) and #155 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523932&postcount=155).

Of those I'd prefer Kath or Rikae, but I could also vote Isabell (or Legate or Lommy, but I don't think that would be very useful toDay).

edit: xed with too many

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 02:06 PM
Please Rikae and Mith. Tell us about whom or what are you talking about in your posts...

If I got it right the "you" in Rikae's post was me and the one Mith referred to as one explaining things was tgwbs, right?

Makes reading much faster if you don't have to deduce the persons discussed.

Please. :)

EDIT: This is kind of general begging. I guess I had them right at these particular instances with just a little trouble but I remember times when there are ten posts between the target you're addressing (not just you two but all those people who don't say what or who are they talking about).

Rikae
06-03-2007, 02:10 PM
Rikae - On Day 1 she suspected Kath the most from the very beginning, but voted Xyzzy. I don't understand her statement that if Durelin had some sort of a seerish ability, Kath is probably guilty. She said Menel's posts may be our best lead toDay - surprisingly these two never even mentioned each other.I did mention Menel. I told him his spelling was hurting my head.
:p

Anyway, you [Aganzir] appear to be setting yourself up in opposition to me...suspecting those I trust (with the exception of Kath). You better be darn sure I'm either evil, or won't be killed...:D

EDIT - X'd with Nogrod. Yes, I'm talkin' to you!

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 02:12 PM
Aganzir's explanation for her incomplete analysis seemed shaky and poorly thought out. Not capable? Sorry, Agan, but you can't play the newbie card - you've simply shown too much talent.
Let me explain: it's difficult for me to think about many things at the same time (I guess Lommy could certify this, I know how often she has had to hear me complaining about it). I felt I would go crazy if I had to mix yet Durelin to the whole what-happened-in-the-night thing.

Don't you really have any other reason to suspect me? :p

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Ah but it makes typing quicker if you don't expalin what seems obvious! Yes I sawTGWBS 's vote after I had posted my query about your (Nogrod's) vote timing.
I was suprised enough to reply immediately and then saw he had made a separate post saying his thoughts had gone topsy turvy.

Which I can relate to as we have a lot of conjecture but little certainty. And today seems to have a few people posting a lot and perhaps getting a little fixated.

So far we have three votes cast and all for Kath? Which should mean that there are a lot of folk planning on getting back to vote in the next couple of hours. Which to me also suggest wemay well have lurkers.

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Anyway, you [Aganzir] appear to be setting yourself up in opposition to me...suspecting those I trust (with the exception of Kath).
I actually suspect those that I find suspicious, and believe it or not it has nothing to do with your opinions. :rolleyes:

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 02:29 PM
I's getting a bit late for me.... Must try to decide. And reread Noggie on Menel yesterday. Just that vote when it was too late to count (and which he hasn't explained) seems as if it could be wolf on wolf... but his interraction with Menel may enlighten. Volo raised some interesting points about him too but it is good to look for oneself....

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 02:34 PM
Well, I see opinions are flying around. I don't have much time now, and I won't be here for the DL. So I'll just vote. I first thought about Kath, since as I said earlier, my suspicion on Noggins does not reach any alarming level right now... and seeing quite a lot of people suspect her as well, I think it might be an attempt in a good way, hopefully.

Oh, and one note:
But then [Legate] voted Menel and that made him look innocent - until the beginning of this Day when someone came up with the possibility of two wolf groups.
It was myself :p

I'll decide yet about the vote, but will just read through here, but I think I cannot contribute in any way to this discussion... I'll post my vote in short time.

Rikae
06-03-2007, 02:42 PM
Aganzir, that was not nice....:rolleyes:

Boro is evil.
From his arguments with Menel yesterday, to his initial post today, and through until now, he has maintained a certain calmness and equilibrium - there is a lack of drive; his accusations (and declarations of probable innocence) sound reasonable on the surface, but lack substance or reasoning worthy of such an experienced player. Mind you, I don't mean the calm of an ordo, who knows their death is not important...it's an indifference, not to his own death, but to the guilt or innocence of others...a lack of rigorous reasoning...

If no one will join me now, I plan to analyze him thoroughly tomorrow. If I am dead, you know who to go for...

In any event, I will put my money where my mouth is...

++Boromir88

Is a wolf, or I'll eat my headset, cord and all.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 02:45 PM
Ah but it makes typing quicker if you don't expalin what seems obvious! Yes I sawTGWBS 's vote after I had posted my query about your (Nogrod's) vote timing. But what seems obvious when you type may not be obvious by the time when you click the submit button...

And about my vote-timing. I almost forgot.

If you look back to the last ten minutes or something I was the one who was actually wishing for a Kath or Shasta vote by then as Menel was my third candidate (he looked a heck of more suspicious than Xyzzy who was about to be lynched but I would have preferred Kath or Shasta anyway). I went through some trouble to find out who could yet vote and what's the possibilities on those last minutes, counting it all the time. I don't remeber the exact times but after Sixth's vote I went mad and got to look once again the possibilities. It seemed quite a lost case - not even to lynch Menel as I doubted Xyzzy would appear anyhow. I only remember that when I got to refresh the window both Legate and Xyzzy had given their votes. I got in to make my vote and felt happy that we had managed to lynch one who was more probably a wolf (Menel) than the other candidate (Xyzzy) with 5 votes over 4 as no one was to be coming in at the actual last minute. The truth was revealed after I had cast my vote...

Anyone who wishes. Try to make it better yourselves the next time.

It's easy to say afterwards when you have time to think what one should have done in a tight place.

EDIT: X'd from Mith onwards...

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 02:50 PM
Blimey Rikae - I am checking for new posts after I get to a page end in my reread - and after the first few pages the only thing I felt certain of was that Boro was innocent. Now I have to decide if I was completely misled. Or if I should look at you..and I have so little time now aieeeeee

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 02:53 PM
Boro is evil.
From his arguments with Menel yesterday, to his initial post today, and through until now, he has maintained a certain calmness and equilibrium - there is a lack of drive; his accusations (and declarations of probable innocence) sound reasonable on the surface, but lack substance or reasoning worthy of such an experienced player. Mind you, I don't mean the calm of an ordo, who knows their death is not important...it's an indifference, not to his own death, but to the guilt or innocence of others...a lack of rigorous reasoning...
Well, I don't know... Boro seems quite ok to me, but you do as well... from the beginning I feel it more like a two-innocent skirmish... though I am more sure with you than with Boro... but still he seems innocent to me...

And this *points up at Noggins' post* is what makes me feel good of Noggie in short. I don't think he could arrange that, even if they were together with Isabell - how would they plan this?

EDIT: X-ed with Mith

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:06 PM
Not really convinced this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523824&postcount=115) post was made 8 minutes before the deadline. A bit late to get a swing especially when (unlike Rikae) you aren't putting your money where your mouth is. You really seem a bit halfhearted in wanting Menel gone - given that you were around when Boro and I voted for him just before 10 but you wait a full hour before trying to drum up support for your prefered candidates and after Xyzzy had received another vote. WIth half an hour to go.. how realistic was this.... ?

Volo
06-03-2007, 03:06 PM
Volo - I found something worth noticing in his behaviour.
When someone says he has been behaving suspiciously, he thanks them for pointing it out, saying he has forgotten about it and then tells what he has done wrong, in a regretful way. If he's a wolf, it's too easy for him to make himself look innocent by doing that - confessing he's been wrong and being sorry.
See posts #142 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523911&postcount=142) and #155 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523932&postcount=155).
Haha! Funny of you to mention this as I recall being arrogant in the preveous game and the game I was Wolf in. :D And don't forget that you yourself are often appologetic.

Gah. Nogrod, I don't know how you manage it, but I woudn't like to suspect you. :rolleyes: Last time it was this hard to suspect people was after I lynched the Innocent Diamond...


EDIT: Xd with Mith.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 03:10 PM
Well, I don't know... Boro seems quite ok to me, but you do as well... from the beginning I feel it more like a two-innocent skirmish... though I am more sure with you than with Boro... but still he seems innocent to me...You must remember that Boro almost always looks innocent... I must say that I share Rikae's sentiments with Boro to a degree. And Boro had a perfect cover in the fact that him going after Menel on Day1 would be no news anyhow and would look perfectly normal. So he would have had a nicely prewritten role for Day1 with almost no danger of getting lynched. And what happened?

But. There are things I'm not quite so secure with.

Was Menel wishing to sacrifice himself for Boro to go forwards? With their mutual history... well I think I don't know enough about it. Maybe someone of you "elders" might say a word on this?

Or was it that Boro had the perfect luck as he was the bear/godzilla/member of the other clan and hit the jackpot? I could imagine Spm making two competing wolf-gangs and putting Menel and Boro to the opposing teams just for the fun of it... although as far as I know Boro tends to win those matches so it might be a bit unfair. Someone who knows better might fill us in with this one.

Taking these into account I would be reluctant to vote for Boro without better reasons as the problems seem heavier. Losing an innocent Boro would after all be a big loss - not the least in a game where we will have two or even three kills per Night and all those silent partners around...

Volo
06-03-2007, 03:11 PM
Not really convinced this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=523824&postcount=115) post was made 8 minutes before the deadline. A bit late to get a swing especially when (unlike Rikae) you aren't putting your money where your mouth is. You really seem a bit halfhearted in wanting Menel gone - given that you were around when Boro and I voted for him just before 10 but you wait a full hour before trying to drum up support for your prefered candidates and after Xyzzy had received another vote. WIth half an hour to go.. how realistic was this.... ?
Actually that post makes me feel safer about Nogrod. Especially if Izzie is Innocent. The post can well be directed to the next Day in case Nogrod wouldn't survive the Night.


EDIT: Xd with Nogrod

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:17 PM
Kath seems cobblerish but Nogrod now seems wolfish.

Don't know what to think about Rikae now she has suspected Kath and then reduced her suspicion . Had a little spat with Aganzir, a bigger spat with Boro, and voted for Boro (which she said she probably would). She has seemed reasonable on so much but the fact we have drawn such vastly different conclusions regarding Boro is making me linger.

There are occasions when innocents destroy each other but they both seem so certain that they are on different sides ..it is arresting.

But I'm tiring and my concentration is not improving...

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:21 PM
Volo, sorry I don't quite understand what you are saying ... and I can think of a few game where Boro got lyncehd as an innocent day one.. so...

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 03:24 PM
You really seem a bit halfhearted in wanting Menel gone - given that you were around when Boro and I voted for him just before 10 but you wait a full hour before trying to drum up support for your prefered candidates and after Xyzzy had received another vote. WIth half an hour to go.. how realistic was this.... ?Meanwhile I was making my post #111. It is about 50 minutes after your vote. Yes. And it took me that long to make. Sorry. I'm a slow one (ask Lommy, she loses her nerve with me when we play with the same computer because I need time :) ).

And anyhow your argument is totally missing the point. I wasn't enthusiastic to see Menel gone as I didn't think him the best candidate. Sadly we normal people here don't know what is the role the others have so we can't know beforehand who is the right lynchee! I thought he was a better candidate for lynching than Xyzzy was but as I said, I preferred to see Kath or Shasta gone.

How many times this has to be said?

Gah...

Volo
06-03-2007, 03:27 PM
Volo, sorry I don't quite understand what you are saying ... and I can think of a few game where Boro got lyncehd as an innocent day one.. so...
Umm... Yes? Neither do I understand you.


I myself am more willing to vote for somebody who has managed to slip under pretty much everybody's radar. Such as Mormegil and Feanor, followed by Shasta, Sixth, Izzie and to some extent tgwbs.

Although I don't have high hopes for this plan working... Well, suit yourselves in the Days to come. :p

And is it just me or has the suspicion level been low on the whole? A few accusations here and there, and that's it...

I better go sleep. :(


EDIT: Xd with Nogrod

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:29 PM
And that is all very well but sometimes you have to accept that you aren't going to get what you want and make the best of it. And set and example. It just seems sneaky to say I voted so late because I wanted someone else lynched. At least Rikae has the courage of her convictions - even though I don't really agree with them. But yes I am getting fixated.

Gah .... Anyone want to gang up for a cop out vote for Gil? :p

Kath
06-03-2007, 03:30 PM
Mith is quite correct. Although I wasn't aware of a change in my playing style I do have a lot more time on my hands at the moment so if there has been one it may be down to that. It's been a long time since I joined a game in order to fill time constructively rather than for procrastination purposes!

Anyway, so. The results of my rather longwinded analyses came out looking something like this:

Guilty:
Lommy
Nogrod
Sixth

Innocent:
Aganzir
Mith
Rikae
Boro

Don't know:
Volo
Legate
Guy
Izzie
morm
Gil
Fea
Shasta

Of the ones I have down as guilty I would be most inclined to vote Lommy, but she has had so little time to post so far that I really don't want to. It could be the time constraints on her that is causing the odd feel in her posting. Given that my vote is more likely to go to Nogrod, who also feels very off to me, but has had far more opportunity to speak.

Oh and I wanted to say something about Gil. If he never turns up I think it extremely unlikely that he has a special role of any kind. Given that, we should leave him be. He may be silent and so completely unhelpful in that regard but he will boost our numbers in later days when it is important.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:35 PM
Ok fair point not Gil (why I am agreeing with Kath? I've jsut said I think her a cobbler? ... actually if I were to go random it might be Shasta - that first post was odd..... but I seem to be making no sense to anyone now.... least of all me *wibble*

Kath
06-03-2007, 03:40 PM
You think I'm a Cobbler? I thought I was a were-bear, or perhaps a wolf. Seems I missed something. But if I was a Cobbler I'd be dead by now anyway. Only time I had that role the wolves killed me first Night. :rolleyes:

Just me, Mith, Noggie and Volo around. Where is everyone else? It's getting pretty close to the deadline for so many to be missing.

Volo
06-03-2007, 03:43 PM
Gah. I'm still in my school day rythm, not WW Day rythm. I'm sleepy. I want to go to sleep. Good night and good Night.

++Kath

May you have a good time reading through the thread later on.

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 03:46 PM
Just me, Mith, Noggie and Volo around. Where is everyone else? It's getting pretty close to the deadline for so many to be missing.
I'm here, deciding whether to vote you or not, Kath. I'm pondering Isabellkya, who, after all, seemed sinister also after yesterDays events when she saved Menel, though as she puts it it was unintentional. There's so little input from her - but the input that is, unlike from the others who also have little input, does not feel much good. But I don't know and to be honest, I am tired. So I'll probably not complicate the things and vote you.

Will shut down the light, turn on the alarm clock and when I return, I'll post my vote.

EDIT: X-ed with Volo.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 03:47 PM
And that is all very well but sometimes you have to accept that you aren't going to get what you want and make the best of it.I agree. But as long as you have a chance to avoid the lynching of someone you feel is clearly less suspicious than some others then the innocent villager tries to avoid lynching the innocentish with all effort. Remeber. You speak with hindsight here. I acted in total darkness as to who where what yesterDay.

At least Rikae has the courage of her convictions - even though I don't really agree with them.I'm not sure if it's courage vs. sneakiness if someone votes early (RL reasons are a good reason to vote early anyhow - but early votes are always easier) even if independent-mindedly or actually takes part during the minutes where things are decided. You see what happened when I did the best I could...

Do you really think a wolf-Noggie would have hanged around 1.30 AM half-dead from several days of 4 hour sleeps RL just to get more suspected? To save Menel perhaps? Oh no. I was a wolf with Menel once. I lynched him on Day1 and contributed to it heavily earlier on the Day (aided by Boro). No way. For wolf-Noggie it's the security of himself and his image among the villagers. For the innocent Noggie it's the villager's good - even if it arouses controversy or suspicions because those are needed to get things going and the wolves to reveal themselves.

We should be hunting wolves and not having this absurd cross-examination.

Or is this what to aim for Mith? How come you were so sure about Menel's guilt yesterDay? You can't say you were sure or that there weren't other candidates as suspicious as he was? How come you managed to pick him as so sure candidate?

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:48 PM
OK ... I have to go and I have decided that since I disagree with Rikae, noy convinced enough of Dury's goodness to join the Kath bandwaggon and am apparently just too thick to understand Nogrod. I shall take another slightly random path - Volo mentioning TGWBS made me have another look. He has made one random and one rather facile vote. It has worried me that so few have focused on so little - this may open the field usefully.

++ TGWBS

The Sixth Wizard
06-03-2007, 03:49 PM
I have little time now as I am afflicted with the cursed blight of school in about an hour... but I'll vote.

Thus far the most suspicious for me have been Boro, Kath and Nogrod. I'm thinking Kath is the Cobbler or the WereBear. Nogrod looks like a wolf too... And Boro is just a bit strange. Of all of them, the first doesn't seem like he needs lynching yet, while Nogrod might be gone by the end of the Night anyway with all this mass murdering going on, so I'll vote:

++Kath

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 03:52 PM
I just got back in, and skimmed through a bit, tsk tsk Rikae and Nogrod I'm going to have to tell them what is going on as they have absolutely not clue.

Anyway, I'm probably going to vote for Isabell - who made a wolvish vote yesterday and did absolutely nothing to calm my suspicions. I would vote for Rikae, because if she's not a wolf she's only harming this village, but it appears that would be a waste, plus I want to see her eat her headphones, or whatever it was she promises to do when she finds out I am no wolf.

Mithalwen
06-03-2007, 03:53 PM
Or is this what to aim for Mith? How come you were so sure about Menel's guilt yesterDay? You can't say you were sure or that there weren't other candidates as suspicious as he was? How come you managed to pick him as so sure candidate?


You seemed to find the reasoning good at the time. I wasn't sure but he looked the most suspicious at the time I had to vote. So I voted for him. I didn't know ...

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 03:55 PM
I'm around, but I've been reading through the thread and thus been silent.
I would love to vote for Rikae, but I'm not sure if there is any chance to get her lynched. If no one else is willing to vote her, I'll probably vote for Kath.

Izzie and Shasta I'm a little worried about. Shasta hasn't been around at all toDay, Izzie has made one post if I remember correctly. But voting either of them would feel like throwing away.

edit: xed with Boro and Mith

Legate of Amon Lanc
06-03-2007, 03:55 PM
Okay, why complicate it. It looks many people have chosen her anyway.

++Kath

Good night.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 03:59 PM
Oh Mith! If I'm dead toMorrow please remeber to check that woman. That vote was soo weird one at this stage...

Let's get back to toDay's bussiness.

Morm -> Kath
Lommy -> Kath
Tgwbs -> Kath
Rikae -> Boro
Volo -> Kath
Mith -> tgwbs
Sixth -> Kath (Kath5, Boro1, tgwbs1)

7 voted, 9 left to vote.

Basically it could be anyone, but practically? Any other good choices around (even if Kath sounds good to me) we should discuss?

EDIT: X'd from Sixth's vote onwards.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Updated...

Morm -> Kath
Lommy -> Kath
Tgwbs -> Kath
Rikae -> Boro
Volo -> Kath
Mith -> tgwbs
Sixth -> Kath (Kath5, Boro1, tgwbs1)
Legate -> Kath (Kath6, Boro1, tgwbs1)

Kath
06-03-2007, 04:02 PM
Aganzir, I would dearly love to save my own skin by voting Rikae but I just don't think she is suspicious.

But I don't want to die. Even though so many people are finding me suspicious I think I can be of help to the village if given longer to prove myself. So I'll vote for someone I at least think is suspicious, and hope it results in my survival, if only for a little longer.

++GUY

Rikae
06-03-2007, 04:06 PM
I would vote for Rikae, because if she's not a wolf she's only harming this village, but it appears that would be a waste, plus I want to see her eat her headphones, or whatever it was she promises to do when she finds out I am no wolf.
I don't see how I'm harming the village, when I haven't accomplished anything. :rolleyes:

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:07 PM
So, as morm has said, Mith is most likely an innocent...can't see why she isn't. And that makes Morm also an innocent to me. Hasn't said much, acted a bit strange, but that is no wolvish behaviour Morm is doing.

I would disagree with Mith about tgwbs sudden change from Kath and Rikae looking innocent to suddenly suspecting them. I think this actually speaks to his innocence, when I've skimmed through a bunch of posts I look at pretty much only any post that has my name, and I get a much different reading when doing that than if I go through and look at every single post.

It's just the sort of thing I would say, if I were a wolf and you suspected me.~Rikae
Now this looks highly suspicious! See, realize that I am not you, and if I were a wolf, I would not wish to similar to someone else's wolvish behaviour. It's very dangerous to assume that someone (who was a wolf) would say the exact same thing you would (if you were a wolf) in a similar situation. Believe it or not, I am not this bold and daring as a wolf, I am more reserved and meticulous. I don't even want to know how I look right now...probably rather straight-forward and slighly looney (only slightly :D ). I'm pretty much just winging out whatever springs to my mind right now.

Oh, and you however, are quite right that I am very calm right now...probably because I'm pretty confident we will have one less wolf by tomorrow morning.

And as far as Nogrod is concerned who seems like Rikae's gotten to him a bit...I expect more of the crackpot plans and bluffs he talks about. That is very Nogrod like, so I find him to be a lost innocent right now who's taken too much ear into Rikae's obviously wrong 'case' against me. And naturally, Nogrod's style of thinking of the unconventional, is quite nice to have around (as we get to see an consider other possibilities), but it always butts into my straight-forward (and as Nogrod said one time...'no-nonsense') style of playing. ;)

Edit: x-posted with everyone since my last post

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:07 PM
Okay, why complicate it. It looks many people have chosen her anyway.

++KathWell. If everyone votes the same person we have nothing to read toMorrow from the voting. It's the perfect hide-out for the wolves.

I agree with Agan that Shasta and Isabell could be good candidates as well (I've almost totally forgotten Shasta toDay).

Not the least because with this rate of killings during the Nights we're losing our active players in one or two Nights and then the village is very quiet indeed...

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:09 PM
If there's no other possible candidate besides Kath, I will refrain from voting for today. As any other vote would be a waste and I do not wish to contribute to the lynching of a person I believe is innocent.

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 04:09 PM
Haven't voted:
Aganzir
Gil
Shasta
Nogrod
Boro
Isabell
Fea

Will vote, I guess:
Aganzir
Nogrod
Boro

If we want to lynch someone else than Kath, it would require at least two others coming online. Gil and Shasta probably won't, but Isabell and Fea might come - I don't know.
This is not to say "let's not lynch Kath", this is to say I would like to see them voting also.

edit: xed with Boro

Rikae
06-03-2007, 04:15 PM
That is very Nogrod like, so I find him to be a lost innocent right now who's taken too much ear into Rikae's obviously wrong 'case' against me.
Um, I haven't even really made a case against you yet. Certainly not before my last post.
:rolleyes:

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:17 PM
So Boro said he could go for Isabell as well as Aganzir?

I suspect her too but my only reservation here is her newbieness so she might have been just baffled and not knowing the situation back then... but the silence of the fiture village kind of concerns me as well and she could be more cunning than I now grant her... :rolleyes:

Rikae
06-03-2007, 04:18 PM
If there's no other possible candidate besides Kath, I will refrain from voting for today. As any other vote would be a waste and I do not wish to contribute to the lynching of a person I believe is innocent.
Believe? Or know? :p

This is only going to make you look worse tomorrow - whatever Kath's role is.

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:19 PM
So Boro said he could go for Isabell as well as Aganzir?
Oh what the heck, since enough people are talking about Isabell (I think Legate also said he may vote for her) lets give this a shot:

++Isabellyka

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:20 PM
Where are you people?

Ten minutes!

Even if I suspect Kath more I might try Isabell just for the future talking of this village.

But three people aren't enough to do it.

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:21 PM
This is only going to make you look worse tomorrow - whatever Kath's role is.~Rikae
You think I don't know that? You better not be doubting my ability to get out of a little bit of suspicion. :rolleyes:

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:21 PM
Okay. I'm ready to give it a try as well.

++ Isabellkaya

Aganzir
06-03-2007, 04:22 PM
I could vote Isabell, but are there enough of us to kill her?

Anyway

++ Isabellkya

If I'm dead toMorrow please consider Rikae.

edit: xed with Nogrod, Boro and Nogrod

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:25 PM
Kath 6
Isabell 3
tgwbs 2
Boro 1

Gil, Shasta, Isabell and Fea to vote.

Isabell will not vote herself so we would need also Gil here... :(

Good try anyway.

EDIT: No it wasn't as Isabell would vote Kath... We should have counted this first.

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:25 PM
Let's save Kath, I want to get this last second band-wagon lynch happening. :D

Boromir88
06-03-2007, 04:26 PM
nevermind, scratch that

Feanor of the Peredhil
06-03-2007, 04:27 PM
++IZZY

Because I like Kath and she hasn't concerned me much.

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:29 PM
Remeber to check Mith toMorrow if I'm not around anymore. She has felt so innocent all the time but I've begun to wonder her assuredness about Menel yesterDay and the way she used it toDay

Her thwarted campaign on me when it still seemed there might be a crowd enough to lynch me I find also quite suspicious...

The Saucepan Man
06-03-2007, 04:29 PM
Day 2 is over. Stop talking and voting.

The result will be announced in a while (once I have had a chance to catch up ...)

Nogrod
06-03-2007, 04:30 PM
And check when pweople joined the wagon anyway if Kath turns out innocent...