WW XXXXI: With a Twist

[the phantom]

This will be a standard game of Werewolf- just a little more twisted.

A couple of individuals will be given special rules, objectives, information, or orders. This is where the twist/twists come from.

If you yourself are selected to provide a twist, you may not share it with anyone until the village is finished. I don't care if you're dead already, or speaking to someone who is not a part of the village. If you cannot agree to this level of secrecy, or are not honorable enough to hold to such an agreement despite the wishes of the moderator, then this village is not for you.

ROLES

Werewolf- There are four Werewolves in this village. Their goal is to reduce the population of the village until it is even with the number of Werewolves left in the village.

Seer- There is one Seer, and his goal is to help find Werewolves with his nightly dreams.

Ranger- There is one Ranger, and his job is to protect the Villagers from the Werewolves at night.

Hunter- There is one Hunter, and his duty is to take a Werewolf with him to the grave when he meets his fate.

Cursed Villager- There is one Cursed Villager, but he does not know he is cursed. If the Werewolves choose to kill him during the night, he becomes a Werewolf.

Innocent Villager- There are nine Innocent Villagers in this village. The job of an Innocent Villager is to lynch Werewolves during the day.

RULES FOR ROLES

Werewolf- Each night the Werewolves must select someone to kill and pm the name to me. The Werewolves can pm amongst themselves at ALL times, night and day, to discuss strategy.

Seer- Each night the Seer must select someone to dream about and pm the name to me. I will then pm the Seer back and reveal the role of whoever the Seer chose. The Cursed Villager will appear to be an Innocent Villager to the Seer, unless he has already been turned (that night or before).

Ranger- Each night the Ranger must select someone to protect from the Werewolves and pm the name to me. If he picks the same person that the Werewolves pick for their kill, that person survives the night. If he protects the Cursed, the Cursed cannot be turned that night. The Ranger cannot protect himself, and he cannot protect the same person two nights in a row.

Hunter- The Hunter can, at any time, pm me with the name of a person he believes to be a Werewolf. The Hunter can change his pick at any time. If the Hunter is lynched during the day or killed at night, the most recent person he chose to hunt will die also, IF a Werewolf.

Cursed Villager- The Cursed Villager is exactly like an Innocent Villager, except that if the Werewolves target him at night he doesn't die, but instead joins the Werewolf team.

VOTING RULES

During the day, every member of the village must form theories about who is a Werewolf based on accusations, defenses, voting record, and seer hints and then vote to lynch someone.

At the end of the day, whoever has the most votes against him is lynched, and his identity is revealed (except the Cursed, who will appear Innocent).

Votes are cast like this-
+ + the phantom

Votes can be taken back like this-
- - the phantom

You are allowed ONE take back per day. And no, you can't save them up.

In the event of a tie, the last person to reach the total is lynched.

Also, there will be no suicide (no self votes).

Each day, I expect everyone to post and vote. If you do not vote more than once, I will deal a blow to your side. Also, if you contribute little or nothing to the discussion more than once, I will deal a blow to your side. So remember, you won't just be hurting yourself- you'll be hurting your fellow villagers/werewolves.

ABOUT THE NARRATION

I will be providing narration during this little adventure, and there may be a guest narrator or two. In our narratives, villagers will be named and they will say and do things, but what they say and do is not necessarily meaningful. If you wish to use the narrative as a basis for your accusations, feel free, but I assure you that doing so will not be helpful in most cases.

SIGN UP

If you have read this post and everything is to your liking, pm me to join the village. You must have at least a bit of WW gaming experience to be accepted.

DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD AT THIS TIME

[the phantom]

Just so you cannot say you were not given fair warning, I will tell you this now...

I, as the Supreme Mod-God of the village, reserve the right to do whatever I wish at any time. For instance, if two of the four players who are selected to be Werewolves lose their internet connections, I can choose to kill them off and immediately turn the Cursed into another WW, as well as add another Cursed.

Not that I expect that to happen. I am merely establishing that I have the power to restore balance to the village and will excercise it if I feel like it. If I do make a change at any point, I don't want to hear any whining.

As usual, play the game in invisible mode.

If you have a question about rules/roles/gameplay, pm me, or wait until I open up the thread for questions/discussion.

DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD YET

[the phantom]

The slots are slowly filling. There are still a couple, though. Are there any experienced players out there who want to have a bit of fun?

This village is in Beleriand, during the First Age (in Brethil, specifically). Pick an appropriate occupation please. You can be in character during the game if you choose. The primary purpose of your occupations will be to be provide fodder for the narrative.

Those who I have accepted into the village- you may post. You may greet the village and introduce yourself, and you may ask general questions about the rules. If you have a sensitive question or concern, pm me.

No, I'm probably not going to have a seperate admin thread. Any discussion/announcements/etc. once the game begins will be handled via pm.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So, hello everyone. :) I'm curious to see who else resides in this village.

[mormegil]

Those who I have accepted into the village- you may post. You may greet the village and introduce yourself

Greetings, I'm mormegil. I new to the downs so here's a little bit about me. My favorite color is blue, I like music and stuff. Reading is also nice. I look forward to a fun, fair, game where we attack and kill each other.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Greetings, I'm mormegil. I new to the downs so here's a little bit about me. My favorite color is blue, I like music and stuff. Reading is also nice. I look forward to a fun, fair, game where we attack and kill each other.

Hey, that's MY favorite color! *mauls*

[Valier]

What time does each day and night start? This could be a big problem for me if I decide to join this lovely village.

[the phantom]

I'm curious to see who else resides in this village.
You'll find out as they post. ;)
I look forward to a fun, fair, game where we attack and kill each other.
That's the spirit! :)
What time does each day and night start? This could be a big problem for me if I decide to join this lovely village.
Sorry, but it's too late for "if". By posting on the thread you have cemented your name on my list. So, I hope the time ends up working out for you. If not, then I'll just have to kill you off in the Night 1 narrative. :D

[Farael]

Hey, that's MY favorite color! *mauls*
(my bolding)

I'm on to you Shastanis... mauling proper, upstanding villagers like Morm on day 1 won't do at all. You ought to know that Morm must be mauled on day 3 or later, based on poorly developed theories that, basically, say that Morm is too smart and thus a liability. You ought to be a wolf!!

Oh, what? we hav- ah.... oopsies! Well, guess I'm playing!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

(my bolding)

I'm on to you Shastanis... mauling proper, upstanding villagers like Morm on day 1 won't do at all. You ought to know that Morm must be mauled on day 3 or later, based on poorly developed theories that, basically, say that Morm is too smart and thus a liability. You ought to be a wolf!!

Oh, what? we hav- ah.... oopsies! Well, guess I'm playing!


Me? A Wolf? Capital W? Oh, no sir. You've got me all wrong. This is... uh... A fur coat! It's winter, after all! My teeth? Uhm... Dentures. An early-Christmas gag gift. Yeah. My ears? ....Earmuffs! Earmuffs that are shaped like wolf ears. Aren't they cute? ...Tail? What tail?! I don't have a tail! YOU'D BETTER NOT MENTION MY TAIL AGAIN. WHAARGARBLSHNARF *eats Farael*

See? No tail. :D

[Nogrod]

Keep that up Shasta and I promise not to vote you on Day1... :D

Valier had no chance to show her qualities in the last game after a long break... maybe we should give her a chance this time? Or maybe because of that tp will assign her to a role of a werewolf and we'd need to get rid of her a.s.a.p. before she manages to sidetrack and confuse us totally with her hunches?

I remember the game I already voted for her on the last Day but then changed it to the downfall of us all... So nasty and so dear memories... ;) I quess Farael remebers that one too...

[Valier]

Sorry, but it's too late for "if". By posting on the thread you have cemented your name on my list. So, I hope the time ends up working out for you. If not, then I'll just have to kill you off in the Night 1 narrative.

Oh I was not aware of this fact, or else I would have pmed you my question. I have pmed TP that I can't play, but seeing as I kinda must..... I will not be around most days at the deadline so I will have to vote early. I may be able to some days make it in time to change my vote if needed. Please don't take this as me being suspicious in anyway, My work hours are just all over the place because of Christmas.

Valier had no chance to show her qualities in the last game after a long break... maybe we should give her a chance this time? Or maybe because of that tp will assign her to a role of a werewolf and we'd need to get rid of her a.s.a.p. before she manages to sidetrack and confuse us totally with her hunches?

Lets hope this doesn't happen;):p

Oh and for my occupation.... how about a basket weaver? does that work or should I pick something else?

[Nerwen]

Hello, everyone. I see the village is already in a state of paranoia. Excellent.
:D

[Rikae]

Hello, everyone. I see the village is already in a state of paranoia. Excellent.
:D

A slip! Clearly Nerwolf would like nothing better than to have innocents at each other's throats, while she slips under the radar!

[Diamond18]

This village is in Beleriand, during the First Age (in Brethil, specifically). Pick an appropriate occupation please. You can be in character during the game if you choose. The primary purpose of your occupations will be to be provide fodder for the narrative.

Dear Phantomex,

I will be the person who cleans up after all the animals. This is not actually a "role." It's who I am.

Yrs Trly,
Diamond

Those who I have accepted into the village- you may post. You may greet the village and introduce yourself

I live in your computers.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I shall be an innocent herbalist, carefully mixing poisons potions for the detriment benefit of the innocents. *bats eyes*

I CAN'T GET MY TAGS TO WOOOOOORK. *cries*

[Nerwen]

A slip! Clearly Nerwolf would like nothing better than to have innocents at each other's throats, while she slips under the radar!

Greetings, Rikwolf. Shall we try to lynch each other as per tradition?

I live in your computers.

ARRRGH! It's the Ghost in the Machine!:eek:

Occupation... hmmn. I'll be the miller.

[Valier]

Diamond!!! I haven't seen you in so long!! Glad to see you playing:D

[Farael]

A slip! Clearly Nerwolf would like nothing better than to have innocents at each other's throats, while she slips under the radar!
I agree with you. I've never agreed with you before. That CLEARLY makes you a wolf.

Therefore Shastanis, Nerwen and Rikae are the wolves! Man, this was way too easy... should we start a new game?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Therefore Shastanis, Nerwen and Rikae are the wolves! Man, this was way too easy... should we start a new game?

But Mr. Farael, there are FOUR wolves in this village! Don't try to get us fooled. That's it - lynch him! Well, well, Fara-wolf, don't think you are going to get through this one. Pretending to ditch your comrades... that scene you made up with Shasta to attempt it to look like he ate you... pah! These are old tricks and we all know them already.

Um, occupation, yes... I am a... lampmaker and a fiddler. The second is a part-time job, you see. It does not make enough money. Some say it isn't even a job. Don't listen to them. Some also say I can't play any instrument. Don't listen to them either. They are just envious.

Um, yes, and... hello everybody.

[Nerwen]

Um, occupation, yes... I am a... lampmaker and a fiddler.

So I guess you have to be out at night a lot... testing lamps... playing at feasts in other villages...

Right, Legwolf?

[mormegil]

I'm a woodsman and carpenter.

[Valier]

what day exactly are we planning on starting ModGod?:D

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Good day, everyone. Allow me to introduce myself: I am Eomer, the gravedigger. I have no doubt that I shall soon find you all quite insufferable. I am pleased to hear these prophecies of doom concerning wolves and such, because it will mean good business for me.

[Rikae]

Hey, I'm old school enough to have traditional enemies. Go me!

Ah, occupation --- I am a midwife and herbalist...and that's all! I do not weigh the same as a duck.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Two herbalists. Well well well.

I think Eomer's wolf. He's killing us off to bump up his business. :(

[Rikae]

Two herbalists. Well well well.


Ooops - sorry, Shasta, I forgot that you'd taken that title already!
I'm just a midwife and "wise woman", then. You can't be that! :p

[Farael]

Uh! Oh! I have the perfect job!

I'll be the village's conspiracy theorist.

[the phantom]

what day exactly are we planning on starting ModGod?
The instant I have 18 commited participants, I will pm roles and begin Night 1.

I lack four at this time. I've been sending out pms to fill the slots, so we'll see.

I've been out of WW for a bit and so I am not familiar with some of the newer players. If you know an experienced Werewolf player who would like to participate, let them know about the game please.
I'll be the village's conspiracy theorist.
Honestly, I expect nearly everyone to fill that role. :D

[Nogrod]

Di my long lost wife! It's been a long time indeed! :)

And Eomer as well... let's just hope I'm not helping to lynch you on Day1 if you happen to be innocent again...

And anyway we seem to have a host of wolves around already before the game has begun. Sweet.

I thought to have a specific goal in this game and that is not being the one topping the who posted tally for once - with of course wishing to stay alive until the end that is. But rest assured I will be quiet only compared to my own standards. :D

...
So I could be the reticent lumberjack then.
...

tp: are we going to have a Christmas break of a few days or do we go on nevertheless the holidays?

[the phantom]

tp: are we going to have a Christmas break of a few days or do we go on nevertheless the holidays?
Unless everyone wants to play on Christmas, I was planning on taking the day off.

But only that one day at this point.

Unless everyone wants to run the game on a 36 hour Day/Night schedule or something like that, and not take any time off but rather have more time on each Day/Night.

The important thing to me is that people will be able to post. Not that I demand that you write a book every day, of course.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ooops - sorry, Shasta, I forgot that you'd taken that title already!
I'm just a midwife and "wise woman", then. You can't be that! :p

Very true. However, I wasn't demanding the spot, Rikae. :p I see no reason why the village couldn't have two herbalists, I was simply commenting. :)

[Nogrod]

Unless everyone wants to play on Christmas, I was planning on taking the day off.

But only that one day at this point.

Unless everyone wants to run the game on a 36 hour Day/Night schedule or something like that, and not take any time off but rather have more time on each Day/Night.I'd be for a bit longer Days and Nights. I mean in some places people have main festivities in the Christmas-eve and in some places on the actual day. If we add to that the difference of the timezones we'd really need to extend the game a bit. Just cutting one day is problematic for to some people it might be just the time they could post and then when the game presumes (or when it's still going before the break) they have no chance of posting as it's their day of festivities...

So maybe two 36-hour rounds (one Night, one Day) around Christmas eve / Christmas day? That would also nicely come back to the original deadlines after Christmas...

[Diamond18]

I will be celebrating Christmas with family on the 23rd and 25th. But I'm sure I'll be able to pop in sometime before or after, so while I won't be perching by the computer all day, that's not much different than days I have to go off to work or run errands, etc, and can't sit by the computer all day.

[The Saucepan Man]

Howdy. :)

Glad to see Farael playing. He goes well with roast potatoes and honey baked parsnips, I find. :p

I shall be a travelling tinker (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tinker).

[the phantom]

All right. As far as ending/starting Days and Nights, here are the windows I am working with.

between 6 PM GMT and 10 PM GMT (1-5 PM EST)
or
between 4 AM GMT and 7 AM GMT (11 PM- 2 AM EST)

No matter what time we choose, it will be inconvenient for someone. I would like to know, however, if you have a strong preference or if all of those times work for you. If there is a strong lean in one direction I will favor it.

It appears we are up to 16 players now.

Just two spots left. :)
I shall be a travelling tinker.
Heh heh... :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Apparently, 4 AM GMT = 10 PM CST, which is good for me, personally. I'll be on the computer more often at that time than in the middle of the afternoon.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Did I smell a whiff of paranoia?

What fun!

I'd like to be a young woman, perhaps an apprentice herbalist/healer/midwife/thing.

Rikae, do you want an apprentice? If not, that's fine, too...I can easily think up something else.

Edit: I wouldn't mind a longer day structure. I know my life gets hectic around the holidays, and I'm sure others will have their hands full with family, food, cleaning, and the like as well.

As to the time thing, I think I'd prefer the later start, as it means a later deadline for votes. I'm more likely to be free around 11 PM than I am to be around 1-5 PM, just in general...though I'm likely to be asleep from midnight on. :P

[Rikae]

Shasta - he said 4 AM EST, though, which is 3 AM your time, I believe! :eek:
That time won't be good for me and, I daresay, not for a lot of other people as well...

As for having an apprentice - sure, I could use the help since I have to compete with that upstart, Shasta! Although the village seems to be getting a little herbalist-heavy...
:smokin:

[the phantom]

I fixed the times.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta - he said 4 AM EST, though, which is 3 AM your time, I believe! :eek:
That time won't be good for me and, I daresay, not for a lot of other people as well...

As for having an apprentice - sure, I could use the help since I have to compete with that upstart, Shasta! Although the village seems to be getting a little herbalist-heavy...
:smokin:

Upstart?! Me?! I'm no upstart! I happen to be extremely good at what I do (although perhaps your keep-awake tea is a hair better than mine).

[Farael]

Glad to see Farael playing. He goes well with roast potatoes and honey baked parsnips, I find. :p

There we go, last time I was a wolf short but now if we add you into the mix we'll be set. I WILL lynch you just to make sure you are not a wolf, so beware.

[Aganzir]

So maybe two 36-hour rounds (one Night, one Day) around Christmas eve / Christmas day? That would also nicely come back to the original deadlines after Christmas...
I'll second this.

As for the deadline, I'd prefer 6-10 pm GMT.

Occupation? Hmm... Surely this village needs a hangman. Or a hangwoman, to be more accurate.

[Nerwen]

I'd prefer between 4 AM GMT and 7 AM GMT– but I suspect this is a bad time for most people.

[Macalaure]

Seeing that we already have a hangwoman and a gravedigger, I think the village might still be in need of a jailer. After all, no werewolf should be killed without a fair trial. ;)

[The Saucepan Man]

I WILL lynch you just to make sure you are not a wolf, so beware.Not if I eat you first ... ;)

I vote for 6-10 pm GMT.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*looks at the post above*

Sp....! *collapses*

*rises again*

Yay!!!!!!!!!


...Concerning the time, for me the PM GMT version is definitely better, and that probably goes for most of the European players... (sorry antipodes...)

[Farael]

Seeing that we already have a hangwoman and a gravedigger, I think the village might still be in need of a jailer. After all, no werewolf should be killed without a fair trial. ;)

Fair trial? now that's a novel concept... but wouldn't it be dangerous for the other inmates having a possible werewolf like SPM in their midst? Did I mention SPM is dangerous, sneaky and probably a wolf? don't trust SPM EVER... it doesn't matter if he's being reasonable and kind, it doesn't matter if he gives you near-irrefrutable proof that he's a gifted.... lynch him anyway! it's probably a triple-bluff

[Macalaure]

but wouldn't it be dangerous for the other inmates having a possible werewolf like Farael in their midst?

My prison has solitary cells. :p

[Farael]

My prison has solitary cells. :p

That was a mis-quote! You tampered with the content of my quote! That's clearly wolfish behaviour
.
..
...
....
Man, I'm having too much fun with this, there's no hurry to get the game started Phantom

[Nogrod]

...Concerning the time, for me the PM GMT version is definitely better, and that probably goes for most of the European players... (sorry antipodes...)So it does. For me (and other Finns) 4AM GMT is six in the morning and to the Brits it's four... So not only inconvenient but downright terrible. :p

And Mr. Spam as well! A pleasure indeed.

no hurry to get the game started PhantomNow, who's talkin'? :D

[Macalaure]

That was a mis-quote! You tampered with the content of my quote! That's clearly wolfish behaviour

I have merely improved the degree of truth in your statement. :p

[Aganzir]

So it does. For me (and other Finns) 4AM GMT is six in the morning and to the Brits it's four... So not only inconvenient but downright terrible. :p
And I'll be dead after the Christmas holiday if I have to stay up that late or wake up at 5 to vote. Not that I probably wouldn't die anyway, but at least being killed by werewolves doesn't affect my grades too much.

After all, no werewolf should be killed without a fair trial.
And of course they should also have good lawyers so that as few of them as possible will be condemned to death, eh? And innocents should be killed without a fair trial then? See how Macalaure is leading you astray!

[Nerwen]

Well, hey, I had to vote at dawn in Lommy's game, you know.

Tell me, is anything we say now going to be admissible as evidence?

[the phantom]

All right people. Find me ONE more person and we'll get this thing started.

Know someone who hasn't played in a while? Shoot them a pm.

Beg if you have to. I want to get rolling.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I can try for Isabell...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ach. Potentially horrible situation. Probably going away for a few days after christmas; no internet access. Should probably know for certain later on today.

[the phantom]

Okay, I've had two new sign-ups. Unfortunately, I've had one drop-out. And if Eomer drops as well, we're back to being one short.

I suppose if I must I will drop one of the WWs, but I don't really want to.

Eomer- let me know as soon as possible. Everyone else- try and find me one more villager.

If I don't have the number I want by tomorrow afternoon, I'll probably drop a WW and begin.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Will certainly have an answer by the time of your American afternoon.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I play! :D

There was the idea that we would go to Belgium for a few days but there is not enough time. Very convenient now (though I am eager to visit that illustrious land someday).

So I look forward to burying many of your corpses.

[the phantom]

I will start sending out pms.

We will begin when everyone has pmed me back.

From now on, any questions/concerns should be sent directly to me.

Remember....

1) Play in invisible mode.
2) Do not discuss your role/thoughts/strategy with anyone until the game has finished. This includes hints in reps (eg "Good game! Sorry I couldn't help you more.")
3) Never rep a living player, even if you are dead.

...and most importantly...

4) Have fun and good luck! :smokin:

[the phantom]

Here is my list.

Aganzir- hangwoman
Azaelia of Willowbottom- apprentice to Rikae
Boromir88- assistant to the apprentice to Rikae
Eomer of the Rohirrim- gravedigger
Farael- conspiracy theorist
Isabellkya- hen
Kath- milliner
Legate of Amon Lanc- lamp-maker/fiddler
Macalaure- jailer
mormegil- woodsman/carpenter
Nerwen- miller
Nogrod- reticent lumberjack
Rikae- midwife/wise-woman
Shastanis Althreduin- Herbalist
The Might-
The Saucepan Man- traveling tinker
Valier- basket weaver

If I do not have a village occupation next to your name please pm me with an occupation. You may have given one already, but it didn't make it onto my list some way or another. (edit: just one person left)

Day 1 will begin at 10 PM GMT on Sunday and run through 10 AM GMT on Tuesday. Night 2 will begin at 10 AM GMT Tuesday and conclude at 10 PM GMT Wednesday.

Every day and night after that will be standard length.

NIGHT ONE HAS BEGUN. YOU MAY NOT POST.

[the phantom]

Everyone, be certain that you keep all the rules in mind. Reading my first two posts again wouldn't be a bad idea. And if I pmed you additional rules, don't delete them. Once again, if you have questions, pm me. It's better to make sure that something is okay than to assume and be wrong.

Dawn is less than 3 hours away.

Remember- Day 1 will last for 36 hours.

[the phantom]

Along the southern edge of Brethil a stream spilled into the Teiglin. Four miles up that very stream was a small lake. And on that small lake was a small island. Or near island- for it was connected to the shore by a narrow strip of land, one hundred feet long and twenty wide.

On the island was a small village. The inhabitants were not all from Brethil originally, but they shared one common bond- each and every one were survivors of Werewolf villages. And so, when a chorus of howls broke out during the night, every last one of them knew what was ahead.

When the villagers exited their homes, they found the entire village surrounded by a dense fog. One villager tried to cross the land bridge through the fog, but he soon found himself emerging from the mist right back into the village. And so it was with everyone who made the attempt.

"This is new," said one villager. "I've survived two Werewolf villages and I've never seen anything like it."

The other villagers agreed. Not only did things look different- things felt different. But no one could quite say what the feeling was. "Something isn't right," said one. "I don't like it," said another.

Then there was a rumble, and a tearing sound, and at the land bridge a rent appeared in the wall of fog. Through the gap the villagers could see a shining figure, struggling to keep the vapors from closing. Nearly all the villagers felt a sudden and unexplainable sense of familiarity, and longed to embrace him.

"The enemy is few!" he cried. "Unite and you will be able to defeat them!"

"Help us!" shouted a villager.

"I will try!" returned the shining figure, who was quickly disappearing from view, his visage and voice being strangled by the fog. "Listen, my friends! You must know, this village is....."

But the remainder of his words could not be heard. The fog had closed completely. As the villagers turned and headed towards the village square, a voice spoke from the fog. It was powerful and beautiful, and more terrifying than any voice they had ever heard.

"Heed not the voice from the outside. It has no power to help you here in this place. Soon you will be dead. There is no escape. Kill, my children.... KILL!"

[the phantom]

Villagers- 13
Werewolves- 4

The living-

Aganzir- hangwoman
Azaelia of Willowbottom- apprentice to Rikae
Boromir88- assistant to the apprentice to Rikae
Eomer of the Rohirrim- gravedigger
Farael- conspiracy theorist
Isabellkya- hen
Kath- milliner
Legate of Amon Lanc- lamp-maker/fiddler
Macalaure- jailer
mormegil- woodsman/carpenter
Nerwen- miller
Nogrod- reticent lumberjack
Rikae- midwife/wise-woman
Shastanis Althreduin- herbalist
The Might- shephard
The Saucepan Man- traveling tinker
Valier- basket weaver

Good luck, everyone. Play well, and have fun. Day One will end Tuesday at 10 AM GMT.

IT IS NOW DAY ONE

[Farael]

Day ones how I hate thee.

And specially the first few posts, as there is trully NOTHING to go on with until some talk get started. Once it does, however, i'll be able to create a custom-made conspiracy theory for this village.

A few thoughts I'm pondering

*The Phantom is lying to us all and there are no wolves, so he'll have a laugh while we tear each other to pieces (with the nighty kills being decided by a many-faceted dice roll)

* Mormegil Saucepan Man and Eomer are all wolves (did I forget to mention any of the usual "he NEEDS to be killed, no matter what the evidence shapes up to be like"?)

*Macalure is having back-to-back wolvish episodes (we should lynch him even if he's not, I'm still bitter about last time)

*Talking about bitterness, SPM. Enough said.

*Also, should Nogrod fail to flood us with extremely long analysis posts, we should lynch him for deviating from his usual game. Even though I personally dislike those posts.

Did I take too long? there were no posts when I decided to write all this nonsense :p

[Nogrod]

Those twists better help us as otherwise it looks grim indeed. Just look at the villager - wolf -ratio and add to it the cursed one who could be our toughest enemy later in the game... as even the word of the seer can't be trusted 100% in the end.

Once it does, however, i'll be able to create a custom-made conspiracy theory for this village.Ahh, we all can you know. So let's hear some talkin'.

Meanwhile I'm off to hew down a few birches as that's the trade I know...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, before anything actual begins, let me get the ball rolling with one question. Don't roll it too much, though, because it is rather a sideway issue and obviously there are other more important things to discuss (as soon as the discussion starts). Nevertheless...

Is the rant above *points up* and I don't mean TP's narration, but the sillinesses we wrote here, having anything to do with the actual game? What I mean is, whether one of these "twists" tp mentions cannot be after all something like telling a player to post this and this before the game starts. I know there are some things that speak against it, like that the players did join one by one and some relatively late. But I mean, tp sounded quite mysterious (if it is the right word, I would say scary even) and actually, have you seen anywhere a pre-day 1 discussion? Maybe it was for our village to get together. But still it's strange.

Like I said: let's be careful and not discuss this too much. Maybe it really does not mean anything. But I had to say this because I keep thinking about it. And also at this time, when I have nothing better to post, why not to post this.

[Farael]

Actually Legate my take on it is that Phantom did it so that we'd get some of the Day 1 sillyness out of the way (didn't work with me, clearly) and to ensure that there'd be more talk.. you know, some of the pre-game discussions could carry on to the actual game.

But I think it's extremely convoluted for Phantom to ask a player to say something or another... and what would it add to the game? certainly, anything short than a revelation with irrefutable proof of one's role would most likely be ignored.

Besides, he said that he did not PM the roles up until he had a full complement of players, I'd guess that if he did not PM the roles for the "normal" roles, he had not decided the "twist players" either.

Of course, we can't rule anything out, but sifting through the pre-game discussion seems to me rather futile.

[Nogrod]

Is the rant above *points up* and I don't mean TP's narration, but the sillinesses we wrote here, having anything to do with the actual game?I'd say no. That was quite the normal procedure earlier if my memory serves me right. A kind of old-school warm up. But if you have reasons to believe it to be otherwise I'm listening.

[Nerwen]

*shakes head sadly* Terrible times, terrible times.

Hmmn. I do think some of us could have chosen more useful careers. I mean hats... hats are very nice and all that, but it's a pity we're the only village in Beleriand with no warriors and no-one to make weapons for them anyway. Perhaps the Tinker and the Carpenter could try their hands at it?

Those twists better help us as otherwise it looks grim indeed. Just look at the villager - wolf -ratio and add to it the cursed one who could be our toughest enemy later in the game... as even the word of the seer can't be trusted 100% in the end.

Ahh, we all can you know. So let's hear some talkin'.

Meanwhile I'm off to hew down a few birches as that's the trade I know...

Hey, come back! Are you saying the Seer could BE the cursed?

EDIT: X'd with Legate, Farael and Nogrod.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I will take your word, Farael (unless you are the one who provided that thing, be it for our good or bad). So let's skip it, better to cut this topic when it starts and not let it continue. Yup, I also thought it could be sort of a warm-up. And if there was anything, tp will probably see to it showing somehow during the game. Okay, let's return to the "normal" discussion (as if there was any ;) ).

EDIT: x-ed with Nogrod and Nerwen. Okay Nogrod, that settles it. I didn't know such things happened. Must have been a long time ago (in a galaxy...). :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, come back! Are you saying the Seer could BE the cursed?

I believe he meant the Seer can See an innocent person one Night and the next Night the person is infected and the "known innocent" becomes a werewolf. That is a thing one has to bear in mind, really.

The funny thing is that I guess we are not even going to learn, if there is no Night kill, whether it was luck (Ranger protection) or a big problem for us (somebody turned to a wolf instead of being killed).

[Nogrod]

Hey, come back! Are you saying the Seer could BE the cursed?No that's not what I'm saying - even if anything might happen.

But the seer may dream of an innocent early in the game and that person may then turn into a werewolf later and as the seer would have "seen" her/him only as a villager and not as a cursed one we can't be sure if there is even one denied kill. Although if we have the order of the dreams at that time we can limit the possible unknowns to a minimum of course.

Okay. I'm not sure how fruitful this discussion is either... Back to the timberland.

EDIT: X'd with Legate

[Farael]

Hey, come back! Are you saying the Seer could BE the cursed?


I know it's day one and there's nothing really to go on, but aren't we in enough troubles without jumping into weird theories?

Wow, what's wrong with me? Well, I guess that as long as it's not a CONSPIRACY theory it's fine for me to speak against them

First of all, the Seer cannot be the cursed if we go by the game's rules (of course, it could be one of the misterious twists). There it says that there's a seer that's separate from the cursed villager (Further evidence is given by the fact that Phantom mentions that if the seer dreams of the cursed villager blah blah... which cannot happen if the Seer WAS the cursed villager)

Also, here's something that I strongly dislike

Okay, I will take your word, Farael
Don't, I might be wrong, but that's not what concerns me the most
(unless you are the one who provided that thing, be it for our good or bad).
THERE.... I do understand that "you can't trust anyone on day one" (and only a very few people in very rare situations later on) but that's just pointless. If you really think I might be bluffing by all means go on with your line of thought and see what comes out of it. If not, why make that comment?

It's as if you are trying to "implant" a waste-of-time theory on the village... 'cos we all know that most senseless theories that prop up on Day 1 are discussed well into the game and usually turn out to be a waste of time. That's also the reason I'm actively speaking against what I consider nonsense.

Edit: X-ed with Legate and Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, to end up optimistically, I just thought that maybe tp could mercifully show us in the narration whether there was a protect-kill or a cursed villager transformation, though we cannot rely on that. But it would be nice.

Probably Merry Christmas, fellow villagers, because I will show probably only not too long before the end of the Day. Bye.

EDIT: x-ed with Farael. Don't be silly, Farael. It is called a "preventive comment". You could have been really this pre-day 1 "twister" and laughed at me. But this is still the topic we decided to drop. You are returning to it now, I said it's finished and I don't want to speak about it and discourage anyone to speak about it. Nog said it is normal thing and that settles it. Let's cut it before it continues.

Bye, really, and Merry Christmas if I don't check back in till they happen at you.

[Nerwen]

Besides, he said that he did not PM the roles up until he had a full complement of players

Where does he say that, though? I can't find it.

The funny thing is that I guess we are not even going to learn, if there is no Night kill, whether it was luck (Ranger protection) or a big problem for us (somebody turned to a wolf instead of being killed).

Yes, I'd thought of that.

All I can say is this: if there's a "no-kill" Night before we've got any wolves, really watch out for bandwagons the next Day. I mean– if there's five wolves, I should think they could lynch at will.

Edit: X'd with Legate, Farael and Nogrod.

[Nerwen]

I know it's day one and there's nothing really to go on, but aren't we in enough troubles without jumping into weird theories?

Ah, professional jealously, is it?

[Valier]

Ok well it's day one....uggg not much to say I guess just yet, seems everyone is discussing the rules of the game. I tend to like to go with the flow, I am sure Phantom has some plans up his sleeve (which by I mean his "twists")

I don't think lingering too long on the semantics of the game will be of much help at this time. I am sure this is going to be a sort of live in the moment game, because you never know when something drastic may happen. I don't see the point of worrying about the cursed villager now, it may never happen, the cursed may do a good job and not get killed. Remember they are just an Ordo to begin with. It is something to keep in mind, but why dwell on it.
Still it does give something to talk about on dull Day ones.:rolleyes: I guess taking into effect what people have to say about the "rules" and such and the way they say it could always be useful.

[Nerwen]

Still it does give something to talk about on dull Day ones.:rolleyes: I guess taking into effect what people have to say about the "rules" and such and the way they say it could always be useful.

I think these unknown twists are making us all jumpy– and as you say, they give us something to talk about.

We can talk about something else, of course:

Such foggy weather we're having! Oh, and how's the basket-weaving going, Valier?

[Rikae]

Well, well. I must say, it's difficult not to suspect Nogrod for not only failing to advocate lynching the quiet ones, but actually being rather quiet himself. I take it this is the new style?
I suppose somebody should provide the usual quiet/loud discussion, then. I suggest that we get rid of anyone who isn't pulling his or her weight in this villiage early on, rather than leave them to the last as unknown quantities when we can't afford to lose them.
No, Rikae, actually, it's better to keep them around, because it's better to have even a few short posts to go on than none at all.
Yes, but you don't understand. We can force them out of the shadows by threatening them with lynching!
Well, not so much now, can we, Rikae?

Yes, I know the above is pointless, but no more so than attempts to figure out TP's twists. Honestly, it could be anything at all, and throwing random ideas out isn't going to accomplish anything.

Instead, I suggest tossing around some accusations. For instance: I dislike the way Legate brings up the topic of the pre-game discussions while telling others - twice - not to discuss it. It shows a certain overcautiousness, if you know what I mean.

[Macalaure]

Well, well... Day One... not much to say yet. At the moment, only Noggie rubs me slightly the wrong way.

Those twists better help us as otherwise it looks grim indeed.

I daresay that some will and some won't. We'll just have to wait and see. There's little point in discussing them now. I know we yet don't have a lot else to talk about, but still.

Anyway, why so pessimistic so early on, Nogrod?


I'd say no. That was quite the normal procedure earlier if my memory serves me right. A kind of old-school warm up. But if you have reasons to believe it to be otherwise I'm listening.

You raise my eyebrow there. I don't mean to become too formulaic in my approach to looking for wolves, but this really fits the "passively encouraging the village to discuss nonsense while appearing to be no part of that discussion"-cliché.

(edit: crossed with Rikae)

[mormegil]

I agree with what Farael said about the seer not being the cursed because it was stated that the seer, if he/she dreamt of the cursed they would appear innocent. It definately implies that the seer wouldn't be it but I wouldn't put it past the phantom to do that either. My guess is that the seer is not the cursed but either way there isn't much we can do about it.

Nogrod, I can't figure out why you brought this up though. It seems rather odd. Right now, Farael seems the most, in your face, vocal person which always makes me wonder, but to be fair it seems fairly standard for him and I do tend to be a bit suspicious of him but if I were to pick a suspect now it would be him. Granted, there are MANY we haven't heard from yet so my suspicion is weak at best, but it's helpful to get some suspicion out on the table.

[Nerwen]

I agree with what Farael said about the seer not being the cursed because it was stated that the seer, if he/she dreamt of the cursed they would appear innocent. It definately implies that the seer wouldn't be it but I wouldn't put it past the phantom to do that either. My guess is that the seer is not the cursed but either way there isn't much we can do about it.

Nogrod, I can't figure out why you brought this up though.

Actually, I brought it up– at least I think I did.

Farael seems the most, in your face, vocal person which always makes me wonder, but to be fair it seems fairly standard for him and I do tend to be a bit suspicious of him but if I were to pick a suspect now it would be him.

But why? I can't see what he's said that's suspicious.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ah, tp and his twists. How much point is there in trying to find them out at this point in the game, though? It kind of makes you wonder.

Another thing that makes me wonder is Farael and the nonsense suspicion list that was posted at the beginning. Could it be a wolf, hiding behind a veneer of helpfulness?

Oh dear, I think I'm experiencing deja vu. With the accents. Or without, whichever catches your fancy.

Hmm, Nerwen seems to be anxious to turn the subject onto something harmless. Basket Weaving? The weather? How is this going to help us catch wolves and turn their pelts into fur coats? I've got my eye on you, Nerwen...

so said the Illusionist. I never liked him, thought he was creepy.

Nogrod's first post was, strangely, shorter than mine. What does this say about him?

-Nogrod is hiding "off the radar". He's obviously a wolf.
-Nogrod is too busy to pay much attention to this game. A perfect cover for a wolf.
-Nogrod is letting us come to our own conclusions, without exerting too much influence. Waiting for the right moment to make an opportune push... much like a wolf might do.

I think we have our answer here, don't you?

The herbs have made me loopy, the herbs have made me loopy.... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[The Might]

I find it akward that you say this about Nerwen Shastanis, as TP said:

Pick an appropriate occupation please. You can be in character during the game if you choose. The primary purpose of your occupations will be to be provide fodder for the narrative.

I don't really see what's wrong with a bit of IC talk, and I rather see that as a joke...
Anyway, I doubt that the talk before ahd anything to do with the game itself, just as I doubt that TP would aks players to post certain things...
Although I must admit, these twists do make me wonder what he is planning really...too early to tell I guess.
I personally find it good that the first day will be a bit longer, that way there might be more discussiong and it would be easier to find out who the Wolves are.

Anyway, it's quite late now and I must take care of my sheep - yes, I am the shepherd - so as I make my way west where I saw a new star shine on the sky I wish all you a Merry Christmas!

[Nogrod]

I thought to have a specific goal in this game and that is not being the one topping the who posted tally for once - with of course wishing to stay alive until the end that is. But rest assured I will be quiet only compared to my own standards.

~*~

I'd agree with Rikae about Legate being somewhat overcautious - but then again he tends to be cautious everytime he plays. He's a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part. There's no sense in losing our best hands with Day1 lottery.

I'm not pessimistic Mac. I'm always the optimist. It just happens that this village has been set up quite unfavourably for us if we only take in the facts we know now and thence I was just thinking that the phantom's "twists" might / should go our way. But I believe we can win. Why else try?

I'd like to know what you would have said in the second post of the whole game that would have had "point in discussing" it with your standards?

Talking about easy and clicheéd wolf-tactics... I'd say Mac's post fits the description to the finest detail. I'm not going into them yet as it's late now (RL). But I'll be back.

Ah, tp and his twists. How much point is there in trying to find them out at this point in the game, though? It kind of makes you wonder.I'd like to have seen your substantive posting in the beginning of the game.

I mean. Yes it's hard to come up with something to say this early but I'm beginning to feel some people are now riding the waves so to speak.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Not a lot to do at the moment other than to throw around baseless suspicion, though, right?

Such as EggNogrod and Magicalaure seemingly suspcious of each other so very early....

[Rikae]

He's a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part. There's no sense in losing our best hands with Day1 lottery.


I'll say. So who's most expendable, then? Clearly not Nogrod. ;)
I wouldn't advocate lynching somebody with nothing more than a single instance of overcautiousness, either. But it's still worth taking note of, I say, for future reference. I've had this same conversation with you before, though, Nogrod, and I fear we'll never agree. I sometimes think your approach to the game is a bit too biased - strong players are, after all, as likely if not more likely to be wolves than the rest are.
In the spirit of noting things as they come up - Shasta, what exactly are you doing? I assume the nonsensical accusations towards Nogrod (implying that because being busy is "perfect cover", he is likely to be a wolf), followed by the comment on "baseless accusations", were meant to be a joke. However, the whole business looks sort of - jumpy, I'd say. Shasta looks overeager to participate and rather nervous. I've seen him as a wolf before (in the game I modded), and he had a similar "mood" then.

[Nerwen]

Does everyone remember this?

The Werewolves can pm amongst themselves at ALL times, night and day, to discuss strategy.

And there are four wolves. The combination makes it very easy for them to start up a lynching party. Be on your guard and make sure you re-read all posts, rather than relying on X saying Y is suspicious.

(I tried to tell people this last game, but did they listen to me? In fact one of the wolves voted to lynch me because I’d said it!)

Now what is bugging me right now is the way people are falling in with Macalaure's and Mormegil's bad feelings about Nogrod and Farael– which appear to me to be based on just about nothing. (And yes, I just went back and re-read the posts.)

And Shasta... Your playing style has certainly changed. Are you serious about the things you said in your first post?

[mormegil]

Now what is bugging me right now is the way people are falling in with Macalaure's and Mormegil's bad feelings about Nogrod and Farael– which appear to me to be based on just about nothing. (And yes, I just went back and re-read the posts.)

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about here Nerwen. You seem rather bothered that I voiced some suspicion over Farael and yet what are we supposed to do? How is this?

I'm suspicious of nobody and everybody must be innocent?

I stated that it was a stretch but I might as well state the one minor suspicion I had.

On the other hand, Rikae, in her two posts, seems rather overly eager and antsy to throw suspicion all over, much like a wolf would do.

Honestly these are weak suspicions but right now Rikae is the top then Nerwen and Farael rounding off 2 and 3 respectively.

[Isabellkya]

Meanwhile I'm off to hew down a few birches as that's the trade I know...


I completely mis-read this sentence and nearly choked on the water I was drinking. haha.

Awwhh.. but the discussion on how many wolves there were, was always entertaining time-wasting.

I agree Nerwen; with the wolves being able to communicate at all times; it shall be easier for them to form a bandwagon/lynching party.

[Nerwen]

Calm down.:rolleyes: What are you so jumpy about? I'm not accusing you. I'm just asking people to consider how incredibly easy the set-up makes it for the wolves to orchestrate a lynch. It's really worrying me.

Yes, I know the above is pointless, but no more so than attempts to figure out TP's twists. Honestly, it could be anything at all, and throwing random ideas out isn't going to accomplish anything.

I don't know about that– I think it might be worth discussing possibilities.

[Nerwen]

Calm down.:rolleyes: What are you so jumpy about? I'm not accusing you. I'm just asking people to consider how incredibly easy the set-up makes it for the wolves to orchestrate a lynch. It's really worrying me.

Yes, I know the above is pointless, but no more so than attempts to figure out TP's twists. Honestly, it could be anything at all, and throwing random ideas out isn't going to accomplish anything.

I don't know about that– I think it might be worth discussing possibilities.

EDIT: X'd with Isbellkya. (The "you" I'm adressing is Mormegil.)
EDIT #2: And somehow I just double posted. Sorry.

[Nerwen]

I agree Nerwen; with the wolves being able to communicate at all times; it shall be easier for them to form a bandwagon/lynching party.

Well, hey, just the numbers will do that. We had four wolves last game and they led the village around by its collective nose. (Uh... so to speak...) The fact they they can communicate during the Day makes it twice as bad.

Of course they might also decide they can afford to start accusing each other, even this early in the game.

Either way, we need to be on the lookout for accusations without substance.

[mormegil]

Well, hey, just the numbers will do that. We had four wolves last game and they led the village around by its collective nose. (Uh... so to speak...) The fact they they can communicate during the Day makes it twice as bad.

Of course they might also decide they can afford to start accusing each other, even this early in the game.

Either way, we need to be on the lookout for accusations without substance.

The wolves being able to discuss isn't necessarily bad for us. I've seen it before where they discuss strategy mid-day and you see one change rapidly thus exposing themselves. So I would watch for that behavior too.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Does everyone remember this?



And there are four wolves. The combination makes it very easy for them to start up a lynching party. Be on your guard and make sure you re-read all posts, rather than relying on X saying Y is suspicious.

(I tried to tell people this last game, but did they listen to me? In fact one of the wolves voted to lynch me because I’d said it!)

Now what is bugging me right now is the way people are falling in with Macalaure's and Mormegil's bad feelings about Nogrod and Farael– which appear to me to be based on just about nothing. (And yes, I just went back and re-read the posts.)

And Shasta... Your playing style has certainly changed. Are you serious about the things you said in your first post?

Not especially, but I think they deserve a bit of a look-see. Playing style changes usually indicate something or other. (Hah, look at me go...)

I had a lot of requests last game to become more active, so I'm trying. :D

Thanks for posting that thing about Wolves being able to post during the day, Nerwen (was it Nerwen? I believe so), because I never even saw it. (Does this mean I'm a wolf thanking Nerwen for mentioning something that can help me out? No, that's me thanking Nerwen for showing me something I hadn't read in the rules. Silly people.)

I had a point with this, I did, where was I going with it... Ah yes.

Rikae! Rikaerikaerikae. You seem awfully eager to turn all eyes towards Magicalaure and Mirrormegil.

[Nerwen]

Good idea... though I don't know how useful it's going to be toDay, when we're going to have people disappearing to go to Christmas parties and such.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta.

[Valier]

oh the drama!!:rolleyes: I am short on time right now, and I hate to throw out any accusations yet. I am forming some ideas on people as the day goes on. Thankfully this is going to be a longer day, giving us all more to work with. I will be back after work tomorrow, hopefully there will be more talk, (but let's hope, not like 3 pages to read when I get home.)

[Farael]

How odd (or is it "refreshing" the word I'm looking for?) I'm away from the computer for a sizable portion of the evening and I find that the number of posts is still manageable. That's just wonderful methinks!

*ahem*

There's little to add as most points have been covered. A few thoughts

Rikae is being agressive, which is her usual M.O. She also says this

Shasta looks overeager to participate and rather nervous. I've seen him as a wolf before (in the game I modded), and he had a similar "mood" then.

It should be worth mentioning she said something similar about Macalure last time around and guess what? he WAS a wolf.

Still, I wouldn't usually pay much attention to comments like those (after all, my playing style may vary from game to game as the mood strikes me, and depending on how busy I am in Real Life) if it wasn't because Shasta HAS been looking rather odd

His comments about Nogrod better be a joke (as Noggie already said he would be toning down his participation level)

And then we have this

Playing style changes usually indicate something or other. (Hah, look at me go...)
Really now? playstyle changes indicate something well, that's helpful... if it wasn't because you could just PM it to your fellow wolves (assuming you were one) I'd think this is a wolves' attempt at alerting the other wolves of a possible gifted.


I had a lot of requests last game to become more active, so I'm trying

Well, perhaps you have been joking around and I for once agree with that kind of play-style, as I strive hard to remember (myself and remind others) that this is just a game.

However, if you are seriously trying to help I'd recommend you try to express your theories in a way that they are likely at least to be considered. Playing too cautiously may not get you lynched, but it won't get you support either. And that goes for the rest of the village as well!!


On a random note, where is SPM? I've been waiting all day to start a friendly match of non-sensical accusations

Edit: Fixing punctuation (forgot a question mark after SPM)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Farael, any attempt I make at raising my activity level is GOING to look "rather odd", considering how active I've been in the past.

I will say, since some people seem to not get my sense of humor (Actually, I get that a lot. o_o) that my comments on EggNogrod were meant in the spirit of jest. Ho hum.

[Boromir88]

Wow, Day 1 is lasting 36 hours, that's good...for some reason my math is really bad and I thought it was a 12 hour day so I rushed up to make the deadline...hmm and apparently I would have missed it if it was a 12 hour day. Anyway, 36 hours is nice so I'm going to go take a look at everything...say my bit and head off to work. Who works Christmas eve? (this man does).

[Nerwen]

Farael, I'm not all that happy about Shasta myself.

Not especially, but I think they deserve a bit of a look-see. Playing style changes usually indicate something or other. (Hah, look at me go...)

Thanks for posting that thing about Wolves being able to post during the day, Nerwen (was it Nerwen? I believe so), because I never even saw it. (Does this mean I'm a wolf thanking Nerwen for mentioning something that can help me out? No, that's me thanking Nerwen for showing me something I hadn't read in the rules. Silly people.)

A possible double-bluff there, I think. Did Shaswolf just show his teeth? (While at the same time making sure that we know he can't be a wolf, because a wolf would have known about the pm situation– right?)

Against that– well, judging from what I know of Shasta's playing-style, that would be an awfully bold move from him. Unless he's very different as a wolf than as an ordo. Also, he's reminding me of Sally, who had that same way of toying with the idea of being a wolf last game, got lynched for it– and was innocent.

[Kath]

Ah after that comment about someone being the shepherd I feel that we should all have chosen Christmassy occupations! Oh well, on to the game in hand.

Rikae mentioned Legate's overcautiousness and thought it odd but I actually think it's completely normal. His posts are generally long because he argues himself in circles within them trying not to come to a conclusion whilst coming to a conclusion. He's a bit like Lommy really, flip-floppy.

Shasta's change in style. Well it is difficult to force yourself to be louder when you're so used to playing quietly and going for attention rather than substance could well be one way of doing that. Still, it is only Day 1, if he pops up tomorrow still doing this I might be more concerned but hopefully he'll be getting the hang of it. I can talk though, two posts a Day is my comfortable limit but tp said he wanted more committed players so I've got to try and be louder too Shasta!

Farael actually seems rather normal to me. Argumentative but generally helpful, as with the pre-game discussion, er, discussion.

Noggie said he was going to be quieter? Please keep reminding me of this, I will forget and suspect him on the basis of that otherwise.

Nerwen, well I know she's naturally loud but she seems unnaturally jumpy at the moment. When she screamed at whoever it was to come back because they'd made a comment about the Seer possibly being the cursed, which they actually hadn't. I know that she hasn't played with a cursed before (well I say I know, I'm pretty sure) but the wording in tp's early posts seemed pretty clear. Could have been a sudden 'what the-' reaction but it seems over the top.

That's it from me for now. Christmas Eve duties call (so early!). Back later.

[Boromir88]

There's little to add as most points have been covered.
Oh, master Farael, what do you mean there is little to add? I see bunches to add and the day is young, we are just beginning.

For instance, I see that Shasta is a wolf, Nerwen is innocent. Nogrod is posting exactly the same as he always does whether wolf or innocent. I want Rikae whacked so Azaelia can become the wise-woman and I am moved up to assistant to the wise-woman. See, I just added a bunch and that was whatever first popped into my head.

Wow, is this village stacked, or what? If I was a wolf I would be as scared as hell.

Those twists better help us as otherwise it looks grim indeed.~Nogrod
By "us" do you mean the innocent or the wolves? Because, really you could say "us" to seem as if you are creating a good "we're in this together" vibe, but really by using "us" you mean your wolf pals. A big problem in a village seems to be that we aren't good at communicating and people are constantly interpretting something someone said wrong. In order to avoid this, I say we all need to become more clear, to clearly get across our points. That way no one is getting confused by something someone else said.

Nogrod, if you're an optimist I am Batman, I mean really...come on are you being serious? And who is to say the twists don't help "us" (by "us" I mean the villagers)...Do you really think phantom would create such a lopsided game that would cause the village to be slaughtered in a matter of 4-5 days? Well, maybe if he was in that kind of mood, but this village isn't as "doomed" as you are thinking it is. Even if it was 4 wolves and no gifteds, the wolves would be facing the collective brain power of a baker's dozen group of experienced werewolf hunters. Add on top of that your gifteds and now some twists to the game? And you got yourself one promising game.


strong players are, after all, as likely if not more likely to be wolves than the rest are.~Rikae
I think Nogrod operates under the belief that if we get rid of all the quiet/I'm not going to give much away people, than all the "loudmouth" wolves would eventually be caught and lynched. I take pride in being a loudmouth, but dang is it hard as heck to survive as a wolf. The only time I did survive as a wolf, was one with phantom, and he pretty much did all the evil wolvish stuff, wolves do, and I sat back and ate some popcorn. It's far easier for wolves to escape further down the road if they really quiet...as they escape talk for a while and you are left with the loudmouths killing eachother off, until one day we all realize...hey I didn't even know unnamed quiet person was in this village? Crap we better do something about that.

So, Nogrod's line of thought is, to lynch all the "quieter" type early, and we'll probably get one or two that is a wolf and eventually the loudmouth wolves will be caught, because they talk themselves into trouble. One strategy, that I've considered many times adopting, but I rather think sometimes "quiet" is mistaken as "unhelpful," which isn't the case at all.

I'm pretty sure I crossed with a couple people

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hullo, I saved some time to pop in, though I can see the discussion is running well enough. A few comments...

Rikae is quite, how would I say that politely, aggressive in the way I don't like. Which, of course, is absolutely normal for her, so I don't see anything suspicious about her.

I can't see what everyone had with Nogrod's posts, he posted almost nothing and this nothing did not look suspicious. So apart from the fact that he did not yet start his floodposting, I don't see anything strange and mainly, I would wait to see more from him to form any opinions about him. I don't like morm somewhat, his reaction to Nerwen and then quick switches from his first post to suspecting Rikae in the second makes me think of wolf PM-discussion meanwhile or something (like "Let's now focus on Rikae for a moment." "Roger, wolftower.").

Nerwen seems quite reasonable. Her posts seem trying to be helpful and I don't see anything unusual about her.

And Shasta, well, he is obviously crazy. Obviously trying to be active is taking its toll. But his quite careless accusations make me feel uneasy. I mean, the way he does it looks like not taking care of other things at all. He is probably the one whom I dislike the most this far.

Otherwise, Mr. Farael seems quite okay, even though mad, and Kath looks helpful. Other people either have posted too little or I don't have anything to say about them yet.

So, that would be it. Leaving, who knows how it will go, maybe I will come back maybe not, but if nothing, then before the DL.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro. Hmm, reasonable, though there is something I just don't... whatever. We'll see what the future brings. Time to go now.

[Nogrod]

It's nice to see one's own thoughts explained by helpful fellow-villagers... (that said clearly enough, Boro?) :)

But yes, Boro is about right with his last point about my preferences with lynchings. Loud people leave a lot of tracks and trying to pin down a wolf by the tracks they leave is much more fun and interesting than blindly quessing on someone who either doesn't post or only throws in oneliners trying to go with the flow.

Well, tp promised to deal blows to those who don't contribute to the game so we can possibly forget those who do not post at all at least for a while. If phantom keeps his word it would seem that no wolf can get through this game by just hiding in the shadows.

But that also means that every innocent must come forwards and speak as every innocent we lose because of modfire is just waste. Staying quiet innocents only help the wolves.

EDIT: X'd with Legate (nice sig!)

[Boromir88]

Just some little observations than I am off to work...

(that said clearly enough, Boro?) :)~Nogrod
crystal

Kath is not striking me as the soothing, fresh-of-breath-air Kath type...
Nerwen, well I know she's naturally loud but she seems unnaturally jumpy at the moment. When she screamed at whoever it was to come back because they'd made a comment about the Seer possibly being the cursed, which they actually hadn't. I know that she hasn't played with a cursed before (well I say I know, I'm pretty sure) but the wording in tp's early posts seemed pretty clear. Could have been a sudden 'what the-' reaction but it seems over the top.
It's one thing to be flip-floppy like Lommy and go back and forth...it took me a while to get used to the typical Lommyish style as it always just look so dang suspicious. But really Kath you accuse Nerwen, then defend her in the same paragraph....hmmm...Nerwen's jumpiness isn't as odd as the "person = suspicious because of the cursed villager comment, but said person hasn't been in a village with a cursed, so said person may be confused." It's not even flip-flopping it's an "I'm suspicious, but oh you may be confused" stance...far worse than flip-flopping

Morm's throwing me off a bit as he's not his bloodthirsty self...hmmm...he's usually calling for lots of death, but now I'm seeing a conservative morm that is admitting he's throwing out 'weak' suspicions.

++Kath

[Farael]

The first conspiracy theory of the day!

Ok, here's a case of "he should have known better" for my first conspiracy theory (second actually, if we take Shasta into account)
For instance, I see that Shasta is a wolf, Nerwen is innocent. Nogrod is posting exactly the same as he always does whether wolf or innocent. I want Rikae whacked so Azaelia can become the wise-woman and I am moved up to assistant to the wise-woman. See, I just added a bunch and that was whatever first popped into my head.

Now, that seems harmless enough, just a little Day 1 banter... but his "seeing" that Shasta is a wolf just jumped out at me

Farael, have you gone daft? Boro might very well be the Seer and you are flushing him out!

Now, let me explain here why I'm doing this and perhaps taking a bit of a chance. While it's true that it might be a "seer-hint" I am concerned on two accounts. First of all, Boro should simply know better. If he trully is the Seer he'd be careful not to say such thing on day one, as a wolf picking up on it would mean near-certain death.

Second, of all people he could've "Dreamed" of as a seer, isn't it awfully convenient that he dreamed of one of the main suspects so far this Day? And found him a wolf? I'm no mathematician, but the odds are stacked against all these "chance" happenings.

By "us" do you mean the innocent or the wolves? Because, really you could say "us" to seem as if you are creating a good "we're in this together" vibe, but really by using "us" you mean your wolf pals. A big problem in a village seems to be that we aren't good at communicating and people are constantly interpretting something someone said wrong. In order to avoid this, I say we all need to become more clear, to clearly get across our points. That way no one is getting confused by something someone else said.
Now. I'm pretty sure this is all jest and I'm fine with that on principle, but he goes on attacking Nogrod with things that are not really explained as suspicions

Nogrod, if you're an optimist I am Batman, I mean really...come on are you being serious? And who is to say the twists don't help "us" (by "us" I mean the villagers)...Do you really think phantom would create such a lopsided game that would cause the village to be slaughtered in a matter of 4-5 days? Well, maybe if he was in that kind of mood, but this village isn't as "doomed" as you are thinking it is. Even if it was 4 wolves and no gifteds, the wolves would be facing the collective brain power of a baker's dozen group of experienced werewolf hunters. Add on top of that your gifteds and now some twists to the game? And you got yourself one promising game.

As a matter of fact I agree with his point, no mod would want to create an unbalanced village on purpose, so we have to hope for the best (and prepare for the worst). My problem here is that he writes this more as an attack on Nogrod than an attempt at calming the waters for all of us villagers.



I think Nogrod operates under the belief that if we get rid of all the quiet/I'm not going to give much away people, than all the "loudmouth" wolves would eventually be caught and lynched. I take pride in being a loudmouth, but dang is it hard as heck to survive as a wolf. The only time I did survive as a wolf, was one with phantom, and he pretty much did all the evil wolvish stuff, wolves do, and I sat back and ate some popcorn. It's far easier for wolves to escape further down the road if they really quiet...as they escape talk for a while and you are left with the loudmouths killing eachother off, until one day we all realize...hey I didn't even know unnamed quiet person was in this village? Crap we better do something about that.

So, Nogrod's line of thought is, to lynch all the "quieter" type early, and we'll probably get one or two that is a wolf and eventually the loudmouth wolves will be caught, because they talk themselves into trouble. One strategy, that I've considered many times adopting, but I rather think sometimes "quiet" is mistaken as "unhelpful," which isn't the case at all.

I'm pretty sure I crossed with a couple people

Sorry for the large chunk of text, I couldn't find a way to divide it into more manageable parts.

Basically Boromir goes and explains Nogrod's behaviour/theory. So after attacking Nogrod on grounds that are not based on suspicions but rather pessimism and the use of the word "us", Boromir tries to find some "common ground" with Nogrod.

Finally, and another big problem here, is that Boromir is in favour of lynching people based on quantity rather than quality of posting.

Actually, he is not even "in favour" of it completely, as he says that he "considered adopting" but it can be misinterpreted as "let's lynch the unhelpful" which is against the spirit of this theory.

So, Master Boromir if I was to post every 15 minutes with a nonsensical string of random words, would I be lower down your suspicions list than if I posted twice a (game) day with very well thought-out comprehensive posts?

Maybe I understood it all wrong, but in summary
Boromir tosses out a lame seer hint that would not fool a WW newbie. Curiously enough, "claiming" to have "seen" that the top suspect thus far is a wolf. Yes, it was part of a "jest" post, but that is what makes it look like a bad seer-hint to me Boromir attacks Nogrod on grounds of the word "us" and his pessimism Boromir then agrees with Nogrod on grounds of his "lynch quiet" approach Boromir does not even wholy agrees that Nogrod's theory is possible, as it can be "misunderstood this "misunderstanding" I must be guilty of, as I think Nogrod's theory would make no sense otherwise







So say what you will, but Boromir looks rather fishy right now.

[Farael]

Cross-posted with Boromir himself

I won't quote his post as it's right above mine (or should be anyway) so basically, let's put it this way

Could anyone tell me why he's voting for Kath?

Yes, he expresses some suspicion but... he even mentions Morm right before voting for someone else.

I know, we have retractable votes but come on... Plus, I still don't understand what he means on his accusation of Kath (but being it 5 20 AM at this end of the planet, that may just be 'cos I'm tired)

[Nogrod]

Alright then. Time to try and say something.

Not posted this far: Aganzir, Azaelia, Eomer, Spm. The Day is long and there's all the Christmas stuff around. I'm not worried as yet but I would hope them to come forwards at some point as losing them - or any one of them - as innocents would be a severe blow indeed.

Now Isabellkaya and The Might have posted only once and there has been basically nothing in there. Valier has posted twice with as little substance. If we would have to vote now I'd prefer choosing one of them. But as said there's plenty of time still so I'm ready and willing to wait for them to post more and actually say something.

Of the rest I'd say the following. (I know it's early to make lists but as I'm going to be away for a considerable time pretty soon I think I need to come forwards with my thoughts now even if they are based only on the few posts made this far.)

Suspicious:
Macalaure
Shasta

Some reasons to suspect / some reasons to trust:
Nerwen
Boro
Kath
Farael

Leaning towards innocence:
Legate
Rikae
morm

I'll try to elaborate these in a short time.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hello all. I thought I'd come in among you for a while to see what's what, measure your statistics, and such. Digging is hard work and it might have been useful to see if anyone needed a larger grave. I see it is not especially so: you all appear to be malnourished wraiths as it is. But seeing as that none of you have any family here, I can't imagine anyone being bothered if I just threw you all into the same big pit.

As for these wolves, I don't see why they would have to do anything in this village. There's far too many loudmouths out their to tie themselves in knots and lynch themselves for the sake of their own voices and arguments. It's a short point but I think it's worth saying, especially on the first day when, by rights, there's no information and just the vain opinions of theorists. Bah! String them up for spouting gibberish, not for lycanthropy.

And keep your animals out of my graveyard. It's a right nuisance.

*grumbles*

[Nogrod]

Mac and Shasta then.

Mac's bogus post on me is the only one he's made. And it looks pretty wolvish to me. Add to it Shasta's follow-up and later trying to withdraw from it. It wouldn't be impossible they both are wolves who tried to put the ball rolling.

rubs me slightly the wrong way

There's little point in discussing them now. I know we yet don't have a lot else to talk about, but still.

You raise my eyebrow there.

this really fits the "passively encouraging the village to discuss nonsense while appearing to be no part of that discussion"-cliché
When a player says that someone "rubs them the wrong way" or that s/he "doesn't sit right" with her/him - or that they "raise the eyebrow" - but will not bring forwards anything more solid I'm smelling a rat. Why? Because everyone has hunches and feelings but a villager seldomly tries to build up general distrust just based on a hunch with nothing to support it. An innocent villager normally stands up for her/his case when s/he has something. With the wolves it's different as they have no actual case or any real suspicion as they are trying to get an innocent to the gallows.

They also sneak their attitudes in. Mac agrees there was little else to talk at the beginning... and then he goes adding: "but still". "But still" what? Someone with good intentions wouldn’t try to cast a shadow on someone in that way.

They also love to stick with anything that can be misrepresented. I was not wishing to discuss nonsense but answered Legate quite definitively. I also tried Legate to see what he would answer to my suggestion of wishing to listen if he had reasons. (Sidenote: I must say I'm pretty baffled with Legate’s response. In a way his quick rejection of the subject feels sincere but then again his confidence in my judgement feels a bit strange as well).

Generally it makes me wonder why such a bright player like Mac had nothing to say at that point of the game but to bring forwards all this "out of thin air nothing" about my posts. I mean yes I might be mistaken as when some people just jump on you with this kind of nonsense you tend to feel they are wolves trying to get you. But at this point it's my best explanation to Mac's behaviour.

Shasta has an air of forced lightness in his posting, playing with the names included. Like Rikae pointed out he seems "overeager to participate and rather nervous". Also it looks like he's all the time throwing whimsy suspicions left and right and reacting to even smallest things and backing away constantly to fit the mood. It would fit my view of a Shasta-wolf perfectly.

~*~

Okay. These are what I think about them now and why I find them suspicious. I'd like to hear of Mac a bit more though before actually going on to vote for him. The same goes for Shasta. If Mac starts posting his normally helpful stuff I'd be happy not to vote for him and rather vote for someone who doesn't contribute.

That remains to be seen.

[Nogrod]

I'm in a hurry so I try to make this short...

So these are the people I'm pretty unsure about as there seems to be things that worry me and things that speak in their favour.

Nerwen: She's calm and makes good and valuable points, especially about the wolves (which could go either way). Her lightness of tone sounds not the most comfortable to my ear. If someone could be accused of trying to lead the discussion into the nonsense -area it would be Nerwen with her suggestion of the seer being possibly the cursed one.

Boro: Seems to be his normal and reasonable self and if innocent we shouldn't lose him. Then again his vote surprised me even if there are retractions and the reasons he gave are quite odd indeed.

Kath: Nothing to ring my alarm bells but my general fear of Kath and this time the way she addressed Shasta like a mate would. Although in this game the wolves can PM each other so why should she risk advising a fellow in the actual thread? I'm baffled.

Farael: He has been quite sensible this far and I tended to lean on trusting him but his conspiracy-theory on Boro just looks a bit too wild and fabricated to be taken seriously. But still he seems to insist he has an actual point which I find a bit worrysome.

~*~

(OOC) I'll go now visiting Lommy and The Little green and then my mom. It may be I will overnight in my mom's place so it's possible I only get online before the deadline. I'll try to check in at some point though.

Keep up writing.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Nerwen's post #90 is a strange one.

She says that she is bugged about the way people are falling in to Mormegil and Mac's suspicions of Farael and Nogrod. But all that had happened is that Shasta wondered about Farael, and Rikae disputed Nogrod (as she said she always does). What was particularly worrying about this?

She also added something about how helpful she is being and how a wolf wanted to kill her in a previous village for being so helpful and clever. Seems to me like she's trying too hard to seem helpful and concerned about the state of the village.

[The Might]

Not so sure what to think about Nerwen right now...
On one hand, one could think that all this discussing other things like what kind of an alliance wolves could make or a crused seer is meant to keep us from actually accusing others.
Then there is the post about Shasta which has really go me thinking.

So: Shasta is either a very confused wolf that "forgot" that rule to make us think he is an innocent or then again this theory could be totally wrong.

However, if I had to vote right now, after reading through the thread, I would probably vote Shasta. That thing about the PMs somehow seems to be a good strategy to win the trust of the others early one and to later disappear from attention.

And as for Nerwen, I think that the posts show willingness to be helpful rather then the wish to lead the others on wrong tracks.

If I'm right about Shasta, then Kath seems suspicious as well, while Legate will probably be innocent.

For now, I'm not going to make any more theories, since I guess it still is too early to really see too many connections between different players, especially since a few have not posted at all. Normally I would suspect them even more, but given the fact that it is Christmas Eve I think they all have a good reason to miss.

Well, I'll be back later on this afternoon to see what has been posted and till then I'll be watching the sheep and decorating the tree. :)

[The Might]

Sorry for the double post, but I felt the need to add a bit after reading Eomer's last post.
I think Nerwen is making a good argument about not following a bandwagon immediately, but rather analysing the situation on your own first, since the wolves do have the possibilty to manipulate us with 4 of them running around.
And thinking back to last game I know very well what she means, I mean I totally fell for all that the wolves said and those that I suspected were always only innocents...well except one time.
So I still see this as a good warning rather then some strategy. I could of course be wrong...

[Nerwen]

Hello, all. I can't stay around long... there's always grain to be milled– whatever else happens, we must have bread!

I'll just make a few comments:

Regarding my controversial Cursed Seer theory: okay, yes, it was silly– but it was early in the Day, nobody was being serious– so I find it a bit odd the way Nogrod and Kath have reacted.

On the other hand, I don't understand why Boromir88 thinks Kath's behaving differently. My (admittedly limited) experience of her is that she's a pretty aggressive player.

Boro voting her at this stage? That's strange, very strange.

For instance, I see that Shasta is a wolf, Nerwen is innocent.

I agree with Farael. That looks as if he’s trying to pose as the Seer... though why would he mention “seeing” two people, when we know he can only have dreamed of one?

Finally– Eomer of the Rohirrim, you weren't in the last game, were you? It got very nasty– basically, the four wolves got us all to lynch each other while they sat back on their haunches and laughed. I'm not trying to scare people off voting, just cautioning everyone against letting themselves be led.

EDIT: X'd with The Might.

[The Saucepan Man]

Apologies for not being more vocal but I am unfortunately experiencing internet connection problems. Currently, my only way of accessing the net is via my BlackBerry, which is very cumbersome and not at all conducive to playing WW.

It should sort itself out, but I don,t know how long it will take. Possibly, I may not be able to do anything more toDay other than vote.

I have only really been able to skim read the conversation this far, but here are my current suspicions, for what they are worth.

I tend to find those who come across as cautious on Day 1 as suspicious, as I always think that is the best approach for a Wolf at the outset. The two who have come across as most cautious thus far are Nerwen and Legate. As I think Noggie mentioned, caution is Legate's normal modis operandi. Not sure about Nerwen, but I am uneasy about the way that she seems to be portraying herself as so helpful.

On the other hand, while he is coming across as anything but cautious, I tend to agree with what others have said about Shasta being unusually vocal and somewhat jumpy.

As I said, I doubt that I shall be able to do any more toDay than vote (my thumbs are aching already) and, unless there are any radical developments, I shall probably vote for either Nerwen or Shasta.

Toodlepip.

[Aganzir]

First of all, I won't be able to participate as much as I'd like today. Christmas celebration takes place mainly on Christmas Eve here, and there's a bunch of lovely relatives downstairs... And of course they need a hangwoman among them... He-he.. :smokin:

**

Another thing why the seer can be wrong: the twists. We don't know if there's a false seer, a mytho or something. And is the seer told if s/he dreams of a player with a twist?
I won't waste my time speculating what the twists tp spoke of might be, as it's really rather useless, but I thought this would be good for everyone to keep in mind.

As for irrelevant matters, I don't like how Legate tries to divert attention from finding the wolves in his very first post. It wouldn't be that bad, but his request not to discuss too much about the thing he mentioned makes my alarm ring. That would have made it quite easy for him to lead the discussion in the direction he wants and then back out quickly if someone starts suspecting him.

Has no one really considered the possibility that Boro was merely trying us with his vote? At least to me it seems quite possible.

At the moment I'm inclined to consider Farael, Rikae, morm, Noggie, Boro and Might innocent. Of the others I don't know, except for Legate and Shasta whom I suspect slightly.

**

I'm really sorry, I have to go now. I'll try to be online as much as I can, but it'll be me who ends up being hanged if I spend the whole evening here.

[Kath]

Okaay. Boro, I don't entirely know where you got that suspicion from. When trying to argue out a point you generally give both sides and come to a conclusion, which is what I did. Are you actually suspicious of me or did you just need to vote early?

Back on Nerwen, you say your suggestion of a cursed Seer wasn't serious, but it certainly felt it. People were throwing out ideas and though they were unlikely scenarios (such as tp telling certain people to post certain things in the pre-game discussion) they were meant seriously, so I don't see that you can put your own unlikely theory in the same category if you meant it in a facetious way.

Finally I want to pull up something Noggie said too:

Because everyone has hunches and feelings but a villager seldomly tries to build up general distrust just based on a hunch with nothing to support it.
Seldom but sometimes. Valier is a prime example of that, and there are times when there simply isn't the evidence to support such an assertion, which is often that case on Day 1. I'm not defending Mac (who was the subject of this discussion) but I do want to point out that it does happen.

[Macalaure]

When I made my last post I gave some points against Nogrod because they were all that I could come up with so early on. Now I will focus on him because he's clearly up to no good.

He's (Legate) a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part. There's no sense in losing our best hands with Day1 lottery.

I'm not pessimistic Mac. I'm always the optimist.

You'd be the first optimist to call Day 1 a lottery. :rolleyes: While I don't share the suspicions of Legate, I find it somewhat strange that you discourage considering him too strongly this early on. On this day, we all will probably have to vote because of weak reasons in the end, simply due to the nature of Day 1, but if the strongest of those weak reasons point towards a 'stronger' player, I'm all for lynching that one.


I'd like to know what you would have said in the second post of the whole game that would have had "point in discussing" it with your standards?

You could have said something instead of letting others do so and remain in the background of that particular obviously nonsensical matter - like Legate did.


And then he blows up very feeble points to a long ramble to make them look like something, dropping names like "bogus post", "smelling a rat", etc. Note also how he mixes what I said with Shasta's strange/joking arguments to make them look bad by association.

When a player says that someone "rubs them the wrong way" or that s/he "doesn't sit right" with her/him - or that they "raise the eyebrow" - but will not bring forwards anything more solid I'm smelling a rat. Why? Because everyone has hunches and feelings but a villager seldomly tries to build up general distrust just based on a hunch with nothing to support it. An innocent villager normally stands up for her/his case when s/he has something. With the wolves it's different as they have no actual case or any real suspicion as they are trying to get an innocent to the gallows.
....
Generally it makes me wonder why such a bright player like Mac had nothing to say at that point of the game but to bring forwards all this "out of thin air nothing" about my posts. I mean yes I might be mistaken as when some people just jump on you with this kind of nonsense you tend to feel they are wolves trying to get you. But at this point it's my best explanation to Mac's behaviour.

The way I see it, then his only argument is, that I used "rub the wrong way" and "raise an eyebrow. The rest is general ramble that you could accuse anyone with at this early stage. I don't see why an innocent should bother to do such a thing.

Note also the way he shortened my post in his quote to make it look less like a careful early day one comment and more like a baseless accusation with no points! (check 82 and 113, please)

The whole thing looks very, very contrived and written with evil intent.


I only took a short look at anybody else, I admit. I'm short on time today. On this short look I didn't see anything obviously wolvish. I will have to vote soon. Nogrod is probably going to get my vote for reasons stated above and before.

[mormegil]

Okay, I have only read through post 113 so far but I need to go to the woods to do a bit of wood cutting so I won't be back for a long while and I'm sure to miss some discussion. Will somebody please keep notes for me to catch up on?

Nogrod, I expect you to keep to you quite promise. That would cut the total post count down by half at least ;).

Boro's quick vote of Kath seems rather odd to me but early votes tend to anyway. He bears watching.

[Boromir88]

Lucky me, putsied around at work for 3 hours and then was told to go home...so you have been blessed with my presense for the rest of the day (that is until I have this narrator part to do in a children's christmas musical :) )

Farael, doesn't it seem like whatever village we are in, we are at eachother's throats? I find that quite interesting...I suggest to you, that you go pick on someone else, because you're barking up the wrong tree. See, (oh look I used the word again!) if it comes down to it, for my own safety I would have to get you lynched, and that is something I don't want to happen, because you are an agressive no-nonsense player...that's very good to have. Plus, you're just an innocent, and if you're dead, I'm good as dead the next day, that will make Noggie's "pessimistic" feelings become a reality. So, it's best for the village if you just went and picked on someone else.

Also, I would suggest you do what Nerwen said, and that is read more carefully. (Isn't this what I was talking about? If we aren't clear we lead to wrong conclusions and that gets the wrong people dead)...for instance:
Finally, and another big problem here, is that Boromir is in favour of lynching people based on quantity rather than quality of posting.
I acknowledge Nogrod's behavior, because that's how he does it...that's his thought process. But read a bit more and you'll notice that I never suggested the thing you claim here, nor did I agree with Nogrod's approach (now I'll do the bolding):
One strategy, that I've considered many times adopting, but I rather think sometimes "quiet" is mistaken as "unhelpful," which isn't the case at all.
Was this an attack against Noggie? No, not at all, Rikae said something with regards to Nogrod's tendancy to want to lynch the quiet, and I gave the explanation.

The only other thing I care to explain is the suggestion I was hinting at being the Seer. And to that I say read Nerwen's post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=540603&postcount=118)...have I really been away for that long that you've forgotten my controversial style? Whether I'm the seer, or not, I write off innocents and wolves right at the beginning and...this always gets me into trouble early. Maybe, I should change since it always gives me headaches, but I rather like creating such controversy...look at the discussion that has followed?

I say "see" all the time, it was your choice to put emphasis on the word...if I was dropping off a "Seer" hint I would have said "seereally"...that I've done before, but I say "see" all the time.

Okaay. Boro, I don't entirely know where you got that suspicion from. When trying to argue out a point you generally give both sides and come to a conclusion, which is what I did. Are you actually suspicious of me or did you just need to vote early?~Kath
Let me explain, no that will take too long, so let me sum up...You accuse Nerwen, then defend it as being "confused." That's what I find supsicious, and no I tend not to second guess myself. Maybe you think that is wrong and I should go about it differently, but when I think too much it leads my mind in complete disarray and I start thinking of double-bluffs, triple-bluffs whatever...I've never been in a village with Nerwen before, but I don't find what caused the big deal.

When first reading Nogrod's statement about the Seer not being completely trustworth I had the "what the -" reaction as well. Granted, I wasn't thinking about the curse, I thought Nogrod was bringing up the possibility of a false seer, and that being on of the "twists" in the game. That the Seer was some Miss Cleo or something with a distorted "eye." I had the same "what in heavens is Nogrod talking about" reaction, but that's all been clearly explained.

So, now that I have bundles of free time it's time to catch up with the rest of the action...

[Macalaure]

There might be a chance that I can be here short before the deadline, but I can't be sure, so I'm going to vote now. Merry Christmas to you all!

Well, except to

++Nogrod

:p


Seriously, read everything he posts for today very critical. If you think he's innocent, listen to him, if not, then don't let him twist your mind and please don't hesitate to vote for him.

[Aganzir]

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...
If Mac starts posting his normally helpful stuff I'd be happy not to vote for him and rather vote for someone who doesn't contribute.
They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Shasta then. Suspecting Noggie, with quite forced-looking reasons. Noggie suspecting Shasta. It'd sound unlikely that three of the four wolves were accusing one another, but not impossible I think. Something worth trying if the wolves want to be sporty? Something worth trying just because people probably don't believe they would do it?

[Kath]

Let me explain, no that will take too long, so let me sum up...You accuse Nerwen, then defend it as being "confused." That's what I find supsicious, and no I tend not to second guess myself. Maybe you think that is wrong and I should go about it differently, but when I think too much it leads my mind in complete disarray and I start thinking of double-bluffs, triple-bluffs whatever...I've never been in a village with Nerwen before, but I don't find what caused the big deal.
Alrighty Boro, it looks like our problem is a difference in playing styles. I don't think yours is wrong at all, but mine is born from years of writing essays and I find it hard to reach a conclusion without arguing both sides of the argument! As to the 'big deal' with Nerwen, it is simply that her reaction to what Nogrod said seemed over the top and, to me, she explained it very oddly. I didn't defend it as being confused either, I suggested it was due to her relative newbieness which, due to her adeptness at this game, is sometimes forgotten.

Now that's gonna be it from me til the morning I think unless I come post after midnight mass. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night. :)

[Rikae]

I don't know what to make of the whole Macalaure/Nogrod conflict. To me, neither of them seems particularly suspicious: Nogrod, though I disagree with him, seems to be a quieter version of his normal self, and Macalaure doesn't ring any alarms for me, because although his points against Nogrod aren't particularly strong, they have that half-intuitive quality his suspicions generally have. I trust an aggressive Mac more than a passive one.
Mormegil's reaction to Nerwen is odd, indeed: first he defends himself for throwing weak suspicions around, than attacks me for doing the same. It seems to me like a desperate move, although, on the other hand, I seem to recall Morm having a generally touchy sort of style. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played with him more often.
Shasta seems to have confused me with Nerwen, and to generally have a hurried and careless quality about him. Is this the franticness of a wolf who feels himself cornered, though, or the carelessness of an ordo with nothing to lose? Although it seems more like the former to me, I can't say I'm completely comfortable with lynching Shasta, as he seems to be presenting the usual profile of the misguided day-one lynch - too obvious. I've seen such bandwagons go awry too many times not to question the situation that seems to be arising around Shasta.
Boro, yes, I'm familiar with Nogrod's usual line of reasoning - however, in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being. I certainly wasn't advocating lynching Legate at that point, as I would think Nogrod would have recognized, so his reply to me seemed unreasonable.
Now, Boro' s reasoning against Kath I simply do not understand. I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with Kath's style, but to me what she said seems perfectly reasonable. Mentioning all possibilities, especially at this early point in the game, is not "flip-flopping", it's a responsible way to post when one is uncertain.
Well, then - I can't really say for whom I'm likely to vote at this point. I would really like to see more from everyone, especially TM and Izzy. Now I'm off to make dinner and decorate the tree, so: Merry Christmas to you all!

EDIT: X'd with Kath

[The Saucepan Man]

Halellujah! My connection is back up, although still a bit dodgy and it may only be temporary. Don’t know why it sometimes does this, but it’s something to do with the ‘phone line I think.

Aaaanyway. I have had a chance to review the Day in more detail.

I am still slightly concerned about Nerwen for her seemingly cautious approach. She has made many apparently helpful comments, but said very little about whom she suspects, and such suspicions as she has expressed have been very mildly voiced.

As for Shasta, who also pinged my radar early on, I am now rather more concerned by how much suspicion there seems to be building against him. He is more vocal than normal, but he makes the point that this is a response to suggestions that he should be more active. Rather than ‘nervous’ or ‘forced’, as some have said, he coes across to me as rather happy to be involved. He has thrown out a few crackpot theories, but that’s quite often the way on Day 1 when there’s not much to go on. It doesn’t seem nearly enough to condemn him, yet he seems to be fast becoming the habitual Day 1 scapegoat. And I don‘t like it at all.

In any event, I have bigger fish to fry now. Two villagers in particular stand out to me as fairly suspicious, based upon events thus far.

Firstly, Nogrod. Mainly, it is his reaction to Mac’s original points against him. They seemed quite mildly expressed to me. Yet Nogrod’s reaction against them (especially in #113) look to br wholly over the top. It is pretty standard on Day 1 for people to throw out mild suspicions in the opening skirmishes, yet Nogrod reacts to Mac’s points like - well, like a cornered Wolf. He attempts to comprehensively rubbish them, while at the same time launching a virulent counter-attack against Mac. He also looks to be encouraging the Shasta band-waggon, which causes me some additional concern. I rather agree with Mac that our Noggie is up to no good.

My other main suspicion at this stage is mormegil. In #83, he said this:

Right now, Farael seems the most, in your face, vocal person which always makes me wonder, but to be fair it seems fairly standard for him and I do tend to be a bit suspicious of him but if I were to pick a suspect now it would be him.Now, I rather agree with him that Farael’s ‘in your face’ approach is fairly standard for him, yet morm uses this to found a suspicion against him. How can this alone raise suspicion, when it’s his usual style?

I also find this quite strange:

On the other hand, Rikae, in her two posts, seems rather overly eager and antsy to throw suspicion all over, much like a wolf would do.Again, if I am not mistaken, this is Rikae’s standard approach. And morm is quite often the first to throw accusations around in the early stages to see what happens. I find it difficult to see why this should make her suspicious in his eyes.

So, I find morm’s cases against Farael and Rikae, both of whom appear to be acting pretty normally to me, to be rather weak and forced, and that worries me.

As for the others, I have some mild suspicion of Legate, mainly for his opening comment about the pre-game banter. As others have noted, this might well have been intended as a diversionary tactic, albeit tentatively expressed, and he backed off pretty quickly when it received a negative response. Since then, though, he has done nothing to worry me unduly. Boro, Eomer, Mac and Kath look pretty normal to me, so there’s nothing much to concern me there at present, and there is too little to go on with Isabelyka, Valier, Aganzir, the Might and Azaelia for me yet to form any strong impression.

In any event, in case I can’t get back on before the Day is out, I better vote now.

++Nogrod

Reasons stated above.

[Isabellkya]

Farael, I'm not all that happy about Shasta myself.

Thanks for posting that thing about Wolves being able to post during the day, Nerwen (was it Nerwen? I believe so), because I never even saw it. (Does this mean I'm a wolf thanking Nerwen for mentioning something that can help me out? No, that's me thanking Nerwen for showing me something I hadn't read in the rules. Silly people.)


A possible double-bluff there, I think. Did Shaswolf just show his teeth? (While at the same time making sure that we know he can't be a wolf, because a wolf would have known about the pm situation– right?)



I think this particular piece of 'bluffing material' is a bit on the shallow side. It is just too obvious to have a proper effect. I don't think it should be ignored; yet I don't think we should hinge votes upon it.

Boromir is asserting his 'us-ness' a bit too strongly. I can't recall if this is usual style of word choice or not. It is another one of those shallower bluffing tools which are always obvious.

*********
Okay, I've made it to post 116 and now I must go. Hopefully I'll be able to return before my relatives arrive.

[Aganzir]

One vote for Kath, two for Nogrod.

Azaelia hasn't appeared yet.

Is there no modfire, or have I just managed to miss it being stated somewhere?

It's maybe a bit early to say this, as tp will deal a blow only after the second non-voting/non-contributing, but could these blows be of any help to figure out if a certain person is innocent or not? Just thinking aloud, as it's really no use speculating on that at the moment- as long as we don't know what those blows will be like. And not that I would recommend non-participating to anyone just that we'd find out if s/he's innocent. :rolleyes:

I tend to find those who come across as cautious on Day 1 as suspicious, as I always think that is the best approach for a Wolf at the outset.
I disagree. There are as many different approaches as there are players. And that's definitely not the best approach if someone finds it suspicious.
Now tell me if you're always a cautious wolf at the beginning of a game? Tell me if you've been cautious this far? I must say I don't particularly like the way Spm sneaks his attitude in (like Noggie said about Mac) and at the same time directs suspicions away from his own behaviour. At the moment I don't consider him suspicious enough to receive my vote though, but I'll keep an eye on him.

I'm not defending Mac (who was the subject of this discussion) but I do want to point out that it does happen.
Now this may be grasping at straws, but that "I'm not defending Mac" caught my eye. It just looks like she's trying to make sure that everybody realise she's not on the same side with Mac if one of them is lynched and revealed to be a wolf.

I'm off to sleep now- be back & vote before the deadline.

**

P.S. Thought I'd share with you that I just noticed my cousin looks exactly like the phantom.

edit: xed with Izzie

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...

They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Shasta then. Suspecting Noggie, with quite forced-looking reasons. Noggie suspecting Shasta. It'd sound unlikely that three of the four wolves were accusing one another, but not impossible I think. Something worth trying if the wolves want to be sporty? Something worth trying just because people probably don't believe they would do it?

Aganzir, I've already said that my suspicions on EggNogrod at the beginning were meant to be taken in jest.

As to how vocal I'm being, some of you said I should be more active... but now that I am being more active, what I'm seeing is "Hey, Shasta's being unusually active. How suspicious!" I just can't win. :(

Also, don't worry, those of you who haven't had me make you a suitably-Christmas name yet, I'm working on it. ^_^

Edit: X'ed with Aganzir.

[Farael]

*Bares teeth* (note, it says teeth, not fangs)

So SPM we meet at last... and to make things worse, you are being reasonable and have done nothing that I can use to accuse you of wolvishness

Fine, I'll admit the possibility that you MIGHT not be a wolf this time. Though I won't trust you until you get lynched and found ordo or we lynch the last wolf.

A few things I've noticed
Now this may be grasping at straws, but that "I'm not defending Mac" caught my eye. It just looks like she's trying to make sure that everybody realise she's not on the same side with Mac if one of them is lynched and revealed to be a wolf.

Yep, sure looks like grasping at straws to me.

Boromir answered my theory quite comprehensively and I'm willing to admit that it was mostly made up to see his reaction. I'm still concerned about his vote and in spite of what he may say, unsettled at his "I see" comment. Maybe he DOES use it all the time, but it looks like a bad seer hint to me.

As to my other suspicion (Shasta) I still find him unsettling. I strongly disagree with the point of view (I think Rikae's) that "he's too easy a Day 1 lynch". I think that Day 1 are the days where we HAVE to take those easy kills if nothing better appears, as day 8, with the villager numbers greatly thinned is not a good time to "take a chance".

There seems to be a growing sense of discontent against Nogrod and I'm not sure about it. On one hand, I am unsettled about his (parapharsing someone else) "elitist" approach where he dismisses off-hand accusations against "useful" villagers on the basis that they could be an asset later on.

First of all, he probably falls into this "elite" group (at least according to himself) and thus it would be a wise move to ensure his own survival. Second, this village is full of experienced players, so pretty much anyone can be considered an "elite" player.

While I am sure that he did not mean that all experienced players are above and beyond suspicion on Day 1, the implications of this approach are ugly.

However, it should be noted that this IS his normal playing style, so while I strongly disagree on this perspective (see above for the reasons) I don't think this alone is enough to think him wolfish.

I'm still leaning more towards Shasta even if he is an "easy" kill than Nogrod. Boromir is still there as well, but he does not worry me as much for now.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

One evil tactic, which I am very familiar with, is to pick out a 'victim' of quiet and unreadable participation and raise suspicion on them. This works particularly well when no-one else has yet scandalised said victim. It makes the evil-doer appear not only original, but inventive in his/her spying methods.

And that's why I'm mighty suspicious of those who are sticking to their guns this early. It's narrow-minded, and unnecessarily so. Sure, we have to vote, but there's nothing wrong with being a slight bit apologetic.

I have no certainties yet, and I admit this; but nobody should feel bad about seeing possible wolves in all corners of this village. Rather, it is to be commended. Blindly following the same path is either foolish or a dastardly plot.

[Valier]

just popping in quick, I see there is loads to read..... Let's see if I can catch up and at least come up with some sort of a suspect list. I shall be fairly busy tonight but I will get a list up and give it some thought before I vote.

[Nerwen]

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...

They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Aganzir, I've thought of that too. Their reactions do seem over the top. I'm not ready to vote for either of them yet, though, but I'm watching them.

On that note, what about the possibility that Boro and Kath are both wolves?

Then there's:

Shasta –Still looks wolfish, but is he too obvious?

The Saucepan Man –Is his defence of Shasta too prompt? Are his vague insinuations about people too sneaky? (I admit to bias on that one.) He's giving me a strange vibe, but I've never played with him before... I don't know.

Mormegil –I don't like his strange, self-contradictory accusations of Farael and Rikae... or the way, when I mildly drew attention to the Farael accusation, Morm blew right up.

At the moment I'm wavering between Morm and Shasta. I could be persuaded to vote Boro– or maybe even Kath (or Mac... or Nogrod...). We'll see.

I have to go now. I'll be back later to vote.

[Valier]

Ok sometimes I just hate computers, I was half way through my list and explanations and bang I hit something and I went back a page and lost everything.....Ugggg

Well since now my time is even more limited I will try and explain myself as best I can. I know my reasons may not always be that good, I can only try. I like to read and observe how people interact with each other and their reactions to different situations. So saying that, my list of suspects is made up of people who I just don't quite get. Something seems furry about them. For now I think that in some way these 6 stand out to me in some way that don't feel good.
My list goes from most suspicious to least.

Nerwen
Shasta
Mormegil
Macalaure
Isabellkya
Kath

Other than that there are a few I think, for now to be Ordo's, such as Legate, Aganzir and Farael. But that could change quickly I am sure. everyone else I am not quite sure of yet, I will be back in a few hours at least to get a vote in.

[Kath]

Back quickly as I've discovered I won't have a chance to vote before the deadline tomorrow. So:

++NERWEN

She was my top suspect as of my last post for her jumpiness and her confused explanation of her early theories.

Really goodnight this time, and merry christmas again!

[Nogrod]

Funny to see how things evolve... Just look closely if you have time and follow the thing...

I find it somewhat strange that you discourage considering him (=Legate) too strongly this early on. On this day, we all will probably have to vote because of weak reasons in the end, simply due to the nature of Day 1, but if the strongest of those weak reasons point towards a 'stronger' player, I'm all for lynching that one.Interesting, I'm agreeing what Mac says here is his stance: it's absolutely the same principle I have...

I'm familiar with Nogrod's usual line of reasoning - however, in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being.Now please, where did this elaboration come from? Not from anything I said. So from where?

I am unsettled about his (parapharsing someone else) "elitist" approach where he dismisses off-hand accusations against "useful" villagers on the basis that they could be an asset later on.Is this from something I wrote or something you read from someone else or which you crafted with your mates?


So I'd be glad to hear where I did say that I'm willing to leave all "elite" players - whoever they might be and with what grounds they could be chosen in this kind of village - without scrutiny and just frantically run for the quiet/unexperienced... whatever you wish to claim? Show me that post please. For that's the most stupid guideline to play I've ever heard!

I quess I've said this a thousand times but I seem to need to say it once again.

If we have nothing but slight hunches we should vote for those who try to hide and stay away from the fray during the first Day(s) (as later they will become real timebombs who can devastate the whole village), but if we have something better let's go for anyone whom we actually think is guilty. I didn't say we shouldn't consider Legate or any other. I said that with that "evidence" or cause to "raise eyebrows" I wouldn't go on lynching him (and that was pretty early in the game if you remember).

Now my main suspect was Mac toDay. If there is anything like elite - your word guys, not mine - he surely belongs to it. And I do still think he could be guilty of wolvery, and I think it would be good for the village to see him dead. So how can you say that I'm not considering "stronger" players while I'm at Mac's hairy tail?

But looking at this word-twisting I've cited up there I think I might have other suspects as well.

There were some other points made I thought should interest us all. I'll come back to them in a moment.

[Rikae]

Well, it's really very simple, Nogrod. I noted something Legate did which I found suspicious, and you responded:
He's a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part.
This seemed like an argument against voicing suspicions of "valuable players" because that is all I had done. I hadn't said anything remotely like "we should lynch Legate", I merely said he seemed overcautious.
What you quoted was my elaboration of that to Boro, and though I found your (apparent) reasoning questionable, I didn't suspect you - then.
I don't think I've ever seen you this defensive before, and actually, it begins to worry me. I'm used to not only a more talkative, but a calmer Nogrod. Why so edgy all of a sudden?

[Farael]

Come on Noggie we've been playing together and we all know you have a bit of a sweet spot for experienced players. I don't blame you, guys like Morm, Legate, SPM can be quite a great asset if they are not wolves...

And yes, I made it clear I was paraphrasing somoene else with the word "elite" but I felt it summed up that train of thought quite appropiately. I still think this is your normal playing style so I'm not particularly suspicious of you over that alone, but you are acting a little edgy.

Regardless, I'm afraid that I am passing out (I didn't sleep at all last night) and I don't know if I'll be up tomorrow in time for a vote, so here goes it

++Shastanis

I know, I have a weak case against him, but right now the only other person who is worrying me with his defensiveness is Nogrod and I don't feel I'm THAT convinced yet to add another vote to his bandwagon.

[Boromir88]

So, here's what I'm going to do...

--Kath

Now please, where did this elaboration come from? Not from anything I said. So from where?~Nogrod
I believe Rikae was responding to my explanation about your typical behavior. Whatever it's worth, unless Nogrod you want to come out and say you are a wolf, I won't be voting for you. I think it'll be either morm or The Might for me (I'll get to that more in a bit).

So I'd be glad to hear where I did say that I'm willing to leave all "elite" players - whoever they might be and with what grounds they could be chosen in this kind of village - without scrutiny and just frantically run for the quiet/unexperienced... whatever you wish to claim? Show me that post please. For that's the most stupid guideline to play I've ever heard!
This is why I said we need to communicate better...things like this wouldn't happen if we thoroughly explained ourselves. :rolleyes:

And that's why I'm mighty suspicious of those who are sticking to their guns this early. It's narrow-minded, and unnecessarily so. Sure, we have to vote, but there's nothing wrong with being a slight bit apologetic.~Eomer
I apologize when I lynch someone who is innocent, other than that...nope they won't get an apology from me.

I seem to recall Morm having a generally touchy sort of style. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played with him more often.
Morm is typically more calling for death/aggressive...here he seems conservative, like he doesn't want to commit to anyone. He's done a fairly good job of tossing around admittingly weak accusations at...Farael, Nerwen, Rikae, and myself...some other comments by morm that get my gut a churning:

On the other hand, Rikae, in her two posts, seems rather overly eager and antsy to throw suspicion all over, much like a wolf would do.
The bold is my emphasis, but I never like that...it reminds me too much of Aristotle's form of reasoning:

All wolves throw suspicion everywhere
Rikae is throwing suspicion everythere
Therefor Rikae is a wolf.

But there's lots of problems with this thought...for instance

All cats have tails
Maximillian has a tail
Therefor, Maximillian is a cat (Max is my cocker spaniel for anyone who doesn't know). :)

See the problem there? Sure wolves throw around suspicion, but so do many ordinary innocents. And maybe I'm mistaken, but it just seems like Morm's been throwing around more accusations than Rikae.

The Might hasn't posted too much, but that's not what makes me uneasy about him...he seems far too jolly, I mean it's nice to be receiving merry christmas' with the holiday hours away, but its like an attempt to appear friendly and buddy up. Call me the Grinch, I know in truth TM is wishing us a merry christmas, but the well-wishing in this village...just looks like an attempt to be friendly.

[Valier]

Ok well after a pretty good read, I've decided

++Nerwen

since all I picked up from her posts was references to other games...no really that was all I got. Nothing useful, seems weird. (to me anyways)

(MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!)

[Nogrod]

I noted something Legate did which I found suspicious, and you responded:He's a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part.
This seemed like an argument against voicing suspicions of "valuable players" because that is all I had done.I can't see your point here. Sorry. Maybe we talk a different language then? Check the bolding I have made to my post you quoted. How can you read that in the way you post in your earlier post referring to the very same paragraph: in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being.
??? Okay. A communication breakdown or then you do this on purpose which means you're a wolf.

I don't know about the calmness issue here. I tend to get somewhat upset when the wolves start to encircle me in the broad daylight. I think that is quite natural. If I were a wolf and noticed you getting the votes after my mates had framed you I'd say exactly the same: "why do you look so defensive Rikae? Well. hmm... that's surely something to note". You see the point? Quite easy to see it as wolvish.

There are four wolves here doing their dirty bussiness... just a reminder.

~*~

Okay... this was what I was writing when I saw Rikae's post.


Why I consider Mac might be a wolf?

When he came in to the game there were almost twenty posts made and what he did was to concentrate his whole post on me - not even mentioning another name there.

That's not so bad as such.

But what he had to say? Nothing.

He threw forwards all those terms like "rubs me slightly the wrong way" (without any clarification where that came from) and "you raise my eyebrow there" (referring to my sentence where I said I'd be happy to hear if Legate had any reasons to believe the pre-game banter was of any importance - which I had strongly denied basing to my experience).

Then he goes to add this "There's little point in discussing them (= the "twists") now. I know we yet don't have a lot else to talk about, but still", referring to my first post, second of the whole game!

So what is this? Why is he doing this? "But still"???

And you dare to post this afterwards...Note also the way he shortened my post in his quote to make it look less like a careful early day one comment and more like a baseless accusation with no points! (check 82 and 113, please)Now this is ridiculous. Your points? Points?

Yes I cut your post as I tried to reveal what your post was all about. Nothing but fabrication (check above).

If it would have been a "careful early Day1 comment" you would have discussed a couple of people posted that far, made points to and fro etc. But it wasn't like that.

So it's much a do about nothing. In the meantime it's a post that tries to make me look bad, intentionally and calmly. That's where I smell the rat. In the intent which leads to fabricating a post to paint someone black out of thin air.

I know I'm an easy target on Day1 as I tend to get involved and thence talked and thence on the lynch-line. The wolves have tried this very same procedure a few times already before (once they bandwaggoned me in bright daylight and got me lynched).

But I play this game to get involved. That's the game to me.

It sometimes demands some self-defence before going to sleep as I also like to play this game and do not wish to die on Day1.

To win the game as a wolf? Post once, at most twice a Day in the beginning. Do not say anything that is not approved by the majority. If you attack, take a victim who is easy to lynch (someone who involves her/himself and thence gets talked about). Always look you're nice towards most of the village as people are prone to vote for someone who has voiced a concern towardfs themselves...

But that's not the way we innocents win.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

But that's not the way we innocents win.

"We innocents"? Seems to me someone's a bit hasty to reassure everyone that they're innocent, themselves. Why now, all of a sudden, when most of the votes are on Nerwen anyway?

I'd also like to ask Farael what he thinks he's picked up on me. All I've done is be more active.

[Nogrod]

My top suspects now are Rikae and Macalaure. It would also fit tp to make them wolves together... I know he's a romantic deep inside. :)

And even if I have stated my "case" against Mac in quite strong terms, were I forced to decide between the two now I would probably vote for Rikae.

The next ones on my list...

I'm not ready to drop Shasta either even if Spm has a point about him being a bit too comfortable lynch. I see where we could all be going wrong with him but I can't deny he acts suspiciously and it would be a disaster to let him win just because he talks and walks like a wolf but we don't believe it.

Nerwen is a hard one. There are things I think feel bad in her posting and there are ones that call to me that we would lose a bright and helpful villager if we lynched her.

Isabell also makes me wonder still. She seems to be on top of things quite nicely but still posts veery carefully without actually pointing at anywhere. A bit too carefully I'd say if you compare the sophistication of her arguments on "bluffing tools" and their general use...

If my count is right it's now:

Nogrod 2 (Mac, Spm)
Nerwen 2 (Kath, Valier)
Shasta 1 (Farael)
+ Boro voted and retracted on Kath

It means twelve votes to be cast (+retractions). We'd need one or two more candidates to make this effective. With four wolves having both their votes and their ability to PM during the Day this would be too easy for them.

Like Nerwen (sic) pointed out, we should check things and not only trust what others say - I think I have a few nice examples of that up there... So even if one or two or three agree with something don't go with the flow. The wolves really fooled the villagers to vote as they wished in the last game threesome and now there is four.



I'd suggest adding Rikae, Mac or / and Isabell there.

Or do you have better suggestions?

[mormegil]

I'm back and I have read to Boro's post 124 and it seems rather odd to me that he is blantantly causing, in my mind, a great deal of confusion. The whole seer point was brought up and I didn't really think he would be so obvious if he were a seer. Boro is an incredibly bold player who would definately play a bluff like this if he were a wolf hoping to smoke out the true seer, thinking the seer might be a bit rash and reveal him/herself prematurely. Of course, it could be that Boro is simply an innocent and is provoking reaction. I would think the latter to be true but with his quick vote of Kath, who hasn't acted overly strange to me, it adds a bit to the overall suspicion.

I will post more when I have read a bit more.

[mormegil]

He has thrown out a few crackpot theories, but that’s quite often the way on Day 1 when there’s not much to go on.

It is pretty standard on Day 1 for people to throw out mild suspicions in the opening skirmishes,

Okay, so Saucie, you are okay with crackpot theories and weak suspcions here, yet when it comes to this you feel a bit different.

Now, I rather agree with him that Farael’s ‘in your face’ approach is fairly standard for him, yet morm uses this to found a suspicion against him. How can this alone raise suspicion, when it’s his usual style?

I also find this quite strange:

Again, if I am not mistaken, this is Rikae’s standard approach. And morm is quite often the first to throw accusations around in the early stages to see what happens. I find it difficult to see why this should make her suspicious in his eyes.

So, I find morm’s cases against Farael and Rikae, both of whom appear to be acting pretty normally to me, to be rather weak and forced, and that worries me.


I threw out some weak suspcions because I was leaving shortly and didn't have much time and also, there wasn't much to go on and I have a tendancy, that is very well noted to suspect people like Farael and Rikae...just ask Lommy and Kath. If I remember correctly to SpM, you seem to usually suspect me for this type of behavior that I exhibit. I tend to not be overly logical on the first day or two because there isn't much of a point about it. I wonder why you suspect me for the same reasons you always suspect me and yet you question why I suspect others for the same reasons.

[mormegil]

Is there no modfire, or have I just managed to miss it being stated somewhere?

It's maybe a bit early to say this, as tp will deal a blow only after the second non-voting/non-contributing, but could these blows be of any help to figure out if a certain person is innocent or not? Just thinking aloud, as it's really no use speculating on that at the moment- as long as we don't know what those blows will be like. And not that I would recommend non-participating to anyone just that we'd find out if s/he's innocent. :rolleyes:

Yes they would help us but not in the way you are thinking Agan. Phantom will not hesitate to quickly dispatch those who do not participate, guilty or innocent. Likely it would be an innocent (simply based on ratio) if Azalia were mod fired therefore we would be down an ordo. It is not a good idea to tempt the phantom in any way...*whispers* he's a megalomaniac with a short temper.

[the phantom]

You have four hours till Day 1 ends

[Rikae]

Nogrod, I think you have accused Mac and I of plotting together in every single game. ;)
As for your reply to me on Legate, I still don't understand why you reacted as though I was advocating lynching him simply by voicing a small suspicion. Maybe you thought I was, but it seemed to me it should have been obvious what I was doing (and you know my playing style by now in any event.) That's why I felt you were quashing the mention of suspicious activities on Legate's part (who, incidentally, seems to have been forgotten by everyone.)

Well, now that the stockings are filled, I really should vote and go to bed. I'm making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice...and to me,

++Shasta

...looks most deserving of coal in his stocking toDay, for reasons stated earlier.
Frohe Weihnachten, everybody, and be good, for goodness' sake!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

The "reasons stated earlier" being that I'm more active in this game, due to suggestions by people last game that I be more active.


'Kay then.

In the interest of saving my own skin (I really am tired of being unjustly executed Day 1; last game was a wonderful break, thanks to EggNogrod, but still):

++Nerwen

[mormegil]

++Boro

I really do believe he is playing a rather bold game, it's when he's at his best, and I've seen him before do things like this and get away with it. He is in the top 3 to 5 most bold players. What he has said doesn't add up to me and is the one who sticks out to me the most at this point.

[Boromir88]

This is interesting...I was going to come on, pop in and vote. But with roughly 40 minutes left...

Aganzir
Azaelia
Eomer
Isabellyka
Legate
Nerwen
Shasta

still have yet to vote. That's far too many, maybe I should hold my vote to see what happens here at the end.

Edit: Wow my math is really bad...there's still over an hour

[Nerwen]

Kath is looking very wolvish to me. In my last post I said:

On that note, what about the possibility that Boro and Kath are both wolves?

–And she voted me in her very next post, saying it was because of my post about the "Cursed Seer" early in the game, and because she didn't like my explanation. Now, I think those are extremely flimsy reasons to vote someone on. It looks to me more like a reaction to what I'd just said.

I thought Kath was most likely innocent before this, and I was basically just throwing that idea out to see what people thought, but now... did I pick her by accident?

Then there's Valier, who also voted me, giving very weak reasons. I don't know what to make of her; she's hardly posted at all.

The whole Mac-Nogrod-Boro-Rikae-whoever-else-is-in-it business– I don't know what's going on there, except that there's a wolf or two in there somewhere... I think I'll just leave that alone.

Okay, so my top suspects are now Kath, Morm and Shasta, the last two for reasons which I've already stated.

Since I may not be back before the deadline, and since there are three votes against me already, I'm voting

++Shasta.

I've been warning about bandwagons all along, I know, and this could be one– but the other two who have voted him are the people I think are least likely to be wolves at the moment. And I think he's been acting too wolfishly to be ignored.

[Macalaure]

I made it back for a short while. I know my approach right now concentrates too much on one person, but I don't have the time to look closely at everybody (Valier and Aganzir leave a slightly suspect feeling, but that's nothing remotely solid) and Nogrod keeps on looking worse with every post.

It's funny that he keeps defending himself mostly against that "elite" players accusation most of all. At least for me, that's the most minor part of my reasons to suspect him. It's also the easiest thing to defend oneself from, because what he said about it long ago was vague: vague enough to suspect him and vague enough for him to weasle himself out of.

He doesn't touch the the more solid and interesting points, because he can't win defending himself against them.

When he came in to the game there were almost twenty posts made and what he did was to concentrate his whole post on me - not even mentioning another name there.
I explained this was because none of the others seemed suspicious. This was one of the things you cut out when you quoted, and that is why this statement of yours:
Yes I cut your post as I tried to reveal what your post was all about.
is clearly not the truth. You seeked to misrepresent what I said, and continue to do so still, so that it suits your defense/offense better and more conveniently.

So it's much a do about nothing. In the meantime it's a post that tries to make me look bad, intentionally and calmly. That's where I smell the rat. In the intent which leads to fabricating a post to paint someone black out of thin air.
It was very little ado about very little. It was you who made it sound like a huge accusation. And as SPM said it, it looked like the reaction of a cornered wolf.

I know I'm an easy target on Day1
Hang on, what? :eek:

(once they bandwaggoned me in bright daylight and got me lynched)
Was that in the game you were turned into a Fenris? ;)

But I play this game to get involved. That's the game to me.

It sometimes demands some self-defence before going to sleep as I also like to play this game and do not wish to die on Day1.

To win the game as a wolf? Post once, at most twice a Day in the beginning. Do not say anything that is not approved by the majority. If you attack, take a victim who is easy to lynch (someone who involves her/himself and thence gets talked about). Always look you're nice towards most of the village as people are prone to vote for someone who has voiced a concern towardfs themselves...

Now this is plain ridiculous. Silent players win as silent wolves. Wordy players win as wordy wolves. Bold players win as bold wolves.

You know, nobody wants to be lynched and really nobody wants to be lynched on Day 1. But I've never seen an innocent try to escape it by simply trying to give everybody who might vote for him a bad conscience because they'd be lynching a player who soo easy to lynch, and soo involved, and soo unlike a (fabricated and unapplicable) stereotype of a wolf.


Please, all of you, there are still a lot of votes left, there have to be some who agree with me about Nogrod. He's clearly a wolf!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm back!

A few words. Somehow, I am concerned by the current vote list. Unless I am mistaken, Nerwen is in the lead now. Well, personally I consider her behavior quite normal and the reasons to vote her are not quite well ("confused theories" from Kath, "references to other games" by Valier, some sort of self-defence from Shasta or what?). It is probably of no reason to split votes now. Yet funnily enough, I find all three of the votes for Nerwen quite strange and I would even prefer voting Kath or Valier over Shasta - but he is the only one who has some votes. Shasta is, as I said, behaving very odd, yet maybe this really is the new playing style. On the other hand, both the reasons of Kath and Valier are quite feeble.

Whatever, but I would probably like to focus my today's vote elsewhere to see how Shasta behaves in the future and if on Day 2 there are some more things to ponder.

A few words on Boro who appeared only after I left the last time. Going through his posts, he is reasonable player as I know he is, but there is this but. For example his speech about Nogrod based on Nog saying "us" makes no sense to me. This, in my opinion, is no reasoning and people do that normally. It could be taken as joke unless Boro continued his suspicion on Nogrod seriously in his post, thus this being one of the arguments.
I don't think Farael's argument about "pseudo-Seer behaviour" is applicable, but what I just say seems really wolfy to me.

I don't know if I'm going to vote for him, but he is quite high on my list.

These were the main things now. I will look at other things and choose my vote. Till later.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro, Nerwen and Mac

[Nerwen]

That's all very well, Mac, but I read your first post on Nogrod, and it looks very thin indeed to me. But then his reaction does seem a bit paranoid... However, I don't see enough evidence to warrant voting him (or you, on the other hand).

As I said, I'm keeping out of that one. I just don't want to get involved in a possible bandwagon.
EDIT: X'd with Legate.

[Aganzir]

Nogrod 2 (Mac, Spm)
Nerwen 3 (Kath, Valier, Shasta)
Shasta 3 (Farael, Rikae, Nerwen)
Boro 1 (morm)
+ Boro voted and retracted on Kath

I think I'd be happy voting for Mac, but I'm not sure if it's wise to bring in yet another lynch candidate. At the moment it's Shasta who's leading, he recieved his third vote after Nerwen.

Of those who have some votes already, I'd prefer Shasta or Noggie. I have a feeling there's something evil going on there.

[Nerwen]

And now I have to go.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

[Isabellkya]

Alright, the relatives are gone and I've a bit of time before I must sleep. So going over the posts thus far.. I've found a few things which just kinda jump out at me. I know people have voted by now.. so I'll just converse with myself. :P

I haven't played many games here with Shasta where he's lived long enough to get a read on his style. But I have played with him elsewhere many times. All in all, he seems to be taking a defensive stance against accusations of his possible wolfness due solely on his new (I guess) playing style here; in becoming more vocal upon requests from others in previous games. The majority of his posts are just fodder.. they don't seem to contain much of substance. He isn't on my suspect list yet; as I've heard tale of a previous game where he'd been a wolf and had been taking hints from his fellow wolf/wolves as what to say/do. I haven't see such things yet, and I would believe it would be pretty obvious if such things happened.

Nerwen on a whole bothers me just a bit. Her posts seem to be mainly about game mechanics, and agreeing with others. In one post, she even went as far as to say that she could be convinced to vote a particular way. At first it struck me as quite innocent, yet combined with her other posts; it was like a flashing radar light went off. I get the feel, that it could be her taking subtle hints from her wolfish pals.

To me Nogrod seems to be his usual self, especially in his attitude towards wanting to lynch the quieter players over the louder ones. Quite understandable.. and I think I've seen such comments in every single game I've played with him. Probably because he always targets me as one of the more quieter players, and it is hard to not notice.

Valier is another edging up to the top of the suspect list, as everything he's said; seems to be non-commital (unless I mis-read something.)

Macalure's insistance on lynching Nogrod is a bit worrying. Innocents have the freedom and luxury of debating and retracting votes when possible. Wolves however, when on a lynch-hunt don't have that.

So I shall vote, and would like to see if anyone else has anything to say before deadline.

++Nerwen


X'ed with Nerwen and Aganzir.

[Aganzir]

I don't really understand this Nerwen bandwagon. At least to me she looks rather innocent, and the reasons to vote her aren't the best I've seen. I must say I'm not the least surprised if there are a couple of wolves among the Nerwen-voters.

I am voting for

++ Nogrod

but I'm ready to switch my vote for Shasta if necessary.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I went somehow through the rest of toDay's posts and I have a few things to add.

I stand behind what I said about Rikae. Now after I read all of her toDay's posts, I am pretty convinced of her being innocent.

I am glad SpM is around, though I know what he is capable to do, nothing rings my alarm on him this far. I am looking forward to what he has to say to us in the future.

I don't know what to thing about Aganzir. Given recent experiences, I know better than to trust her. She is not particularly suspicious, yet I am worried that finding her unsuspicious may actually be a reason to worry. Yet I also don't want to overreact based on oversuspiciousness. Let's say my feelings about her are not in the left nor in the right for the time being, though I'm staying alert.

Kath is one who really troubles me. I mentioned her vote above, now also her exchange with Boro. The overcombinating part of me could come up with wild theories like both of them being wolves, though then Boro's vote for Kath (retracted) would be quite strange thing for a wolf to do against a fellow wolf. Yet, a "double-trick" (like "no wolf would do such a thing") is always possible and not even that surprising from Boro.

I am kind of concerned by so little interest put in those who are not as vocal, the attention seems to focus mainly on several players. Yet in a big village on Day 1 it isn't that strange and maybe for the better, so there is not that much confusion on Day 1. So maybe now it isn't the right time, only let's not forget that in the future.

Well, time is pressing and I have to vote soon. Hope the voting madness didn't start yet.

EDIT: x-ed with Isabellkya and Aganzir.

[Nogrod]

Half an hour of time and there are 8 votes left.

Did you read Rikae's latest. That was something.

I said I suspected her because she provedly twisted my words and said I posted something that I didn't to make me look bad.

Now she defences by explaining why she actually didn't mean to suggest we should lynch Legate etc. (which is totally different question).

And how she ends then?
Frohe Weihnachten, everybody, and be good, for goodness' sake!I know someone says that's nothing but let me tell you that's something. That's a backbone-reaction of a wolf.

Okay, we can do it.

++ Rikae

EDIT: X'd with Agan and Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Half an hour of time and there are 8 votes left.

Did you read Rikae's latest. That was something.

I said I suspected her because she provedly twisted my words and said I posted something that I didn't to make me look bad.

Now she defences by explaining why she actually didn't mean to suggest we should lynch Legate etc. (which is totally different question).

And how she ends then?
I know someone says that's nothing but let me tell you that's something. That's a backbone-reaction of a wolf.

Okay, we can do it.

++ Rikae

EDIT: X'd with Agan and Legate

I don't understand that last at all. "Be good for goodness' sake" seems to me just a farewell fit for the holidays. I'm not sure I like how you call that a "backbone reaction of a wolf". Would you care to explain that?

Really, the only reason I voted Nerwen was because she had the same amount of votes as I had, but to be honest I'm seriously considering retracting my vote and voting EggNogrod. We'll see how the next few minutes play out...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well I am quite torn now. How many people are left to vote? Four? I am not sure if voting for Boro may to gain some support still. But I will try, there is still time and retractions available.

++Boro

EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

A vote count, for anyone up at this hour (Merry Christmas by the way, to everyone, it's nearly 4 in the morning for me):

Nogrod 3 (Mac, Spm, Aganzir)
Nerwen 4 (Kath, Valier, Shasta, Isabellkya)
Shasta 3 (Farael, Rikae, Nerwen)
Boro 2 (morm, SPM)
Rikae 1 (Nogrod)

Edit: X'd with SPM.

[Nogrod]

Would you care to explain that?I think it's better to lynch a werewolf when we have a chance than not. Don't you agree?

A wolf needs to be agreeable, to give out positive vibrations. Innocents need to be brave enough to step on other people's toes also.

That's a feel-good & be nice thing... "for goodness sake"... good gosh!

My argument against her I've made already earlier. This just topped it.

[Macalaure]

I don't really understand this Nerwen bandwagon.

Me neither. I can see where the Shasta-voters come from, though I disagree with them, but I don't understand why people are so suspicious of Nerwen.


Nogrod, in case the two of us will still be alive tomorrow, you'll have to explain to me what a "backbone-reaction of a wolf" is. Otherwise I might think it's a way for a wolf to justify a throwaway vote.

(exd with everything since Shasta pointed out the same I just did)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nog, now that was pretty strange what you said. Really. It was said here before that you post very little, resp. short, which is unusual for you, well, whatever, but this is the same thing as I said about Boro - taking a thing from the post that does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with the game? Again, if you said it as a joke, whatever, but basing suspicion on it? What puzzles me is that you surely know to do better, Nog!

[Macalaure]

I think it's better to lynch a werewolf when we have a chance than not. Don't you agree?

A wolf needs to be agreeable, to give out positive vibrations. Innocents need to be brave enough to step on other people's toes also.

That's a feel-good & be nice thing... "for goodness sake"... good gosh!

My argument against her I've made already earlier. This just topped it.

What???

Now, all the things you said before at least sounded reasonable, but what is this??

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ack! I meant Legate instead of SPM in my previous post. Sorry.

[Aganzir]

Azaelia
Eomer
The Might
have not voted.

Really, the only reason I voted Nerwen was because she had the same amount of votes as I had, but to be honest I'm seriously considering retracting my vote and voting EggNogrod. We'll see how the next few minutes play out...
Really, I know this isn't nice, but if you don't switch to Nogrod I'm going to switch to you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

No, with my reason for voting Nerwen simple self defense, and EggNogrod more and more suspicious, I think I'm going to

-- Nerwen
++ Nogrod

Edit: X'd with Agan. You're right, that's not very nice. I'm tempted to take back my retraction, simply because I hate it when people attempt to force me to do things. <.<

[Nogrod]

C'mon.

I'm not saying we should lynch Rikae because of that goodness sake -thing.

I have an argument which I believe is valid aganst her. Be fair for once Mac.

That was something that just kind of assured me I am right.


Oh Aganzir... Well four wolves to drive their favourite lynch as soon as they have enough innocents on their side.

That threat hopefully will be remembered toMorrow...

EDIT: X'd with Shasta

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh, what is this situation about? Till recently, I did not have any reason to suspect Nogrod. Yet this? Nog, surely you don't want me to lynch you? I have two strong pros: what you did and also that I would save Nerwen by that. Unless I am mistaken the fate of todays vote is in my hands. Oh my, don't make me do it! Yet I consider Nerwen less suspicious than you. This is ridiculous.

--Boro

++Nogrod

*shakes head*

EDIT: x-ed since Aganzir. Oh well.

[Nogrod]

This is ridiculous.

It is.

Remember all this toMorrow.

And happy holidays if someone doesn't come to her/his senses and fast..

[Boromir88]

I don't know why I'm going to go in to explaining this...it wasn't a big deal, but Legate seems to think it is so...

My "us" comments toward Nogrod were opening jests for the most part...but point being I was simply asking Nogrod what he meant by "us." As if he is a wolf, he could be saying "us" in reference to his werewolf buddies, if he's a villager than he is referring to fellow innocents. But, by saying "us" it creates a feel good "I'm stuck in the same boat" sense, as if he is like me...when really he could be a werewolf. I'll say it again, poor communication is a problem in this game, so I'm just trying to ask for people to explain clearly If you've read the thread that has been a consistant problem, people aren't being clear.

As far as Nogrod's recent comments...what's so wierd about it Mac? Ya his vote looks like a throw away, but he's right wolves have to appear buddy buddy to get on the villagers good side. Where innocent villagers can be brutally honest and "step on others toes."

[Macalaure]

I'm not saying we should lynch Rikae because of that goodness sake -thing.

I have an argument which I believe is valid aganst her. Be fair for once Mac.


I know, but you concluded it with it, but it was no point at all and very contrived. Notice that I haven't ever suspected you because of your suspicions of Rikae. I'm very far from being convinced by them, but if you happen to be innocent, which I very highly doubt, I will definitely reconsider them.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Not happy about Nogrod being lynched. The way it happened looks odd to me.

Nerwen looks worse to me.

++NERWEN

[Boromir88]

++Shasta

I don't like this new found bandwagon to lynch Nogrod. I'm not sure he's innocent but I have no clue what is going on with this sudden urge to lynch him

[Nogrod]

I need to post only once on Day1 from this on... :p

[the phantom]

Sorry, but no narrative or anything right now. It's past 4 AM- had to set my alarm just for this.

You'll learn Nogrod's role in a few hours. For right now, it's back to sleep for me. For those who have nightly activities, remember that tonight is 36 hours. You have plenty of time.

Living-
Aganzir- hangwoman
Azaelia of Willowbottom- apprentice to Rikae
Boromir88- assistant to the apprentice to Rikae
Eomer of the Rohirrim- gravedigger
Farael- conspiracy theorist
Isabellkya- hen
Kath- milliner
Legate of Amon Lanc- lamp-maker/fiddler
Macalaure- jailer
mormegil- woodsman/carpenter
Nerwen- miller
Rikae- midwife/wise-woman
Shastanis Althreduin- herbalist
The Might- shephard
The Saucepan Man- traveling tinker
Valier- basket weaver

Dead-
Nogrod- reticent lumberjack

IT IS NOW NIGHT 2. YOU MAY NOT POST.

[the phantom]

When the votes were counted, the lumberjack, Nogrod, came out ahead.

"Oh well," he said. "At least I had a bit of fun."

"Grab him!" several villagers shouted. But there was no need. Nogrod placed his hands together behind his back and made no attempt to escape. "I will meet death bravely!" he declared.

As Aganzir, the hangwoman, led Nogrod to the gallows, he espied between a gap in two houses a small boat on the shore of the lake. Due to his cooperation, his captors were gripping him only lightly, and so with a burst of super-human strength he broke both their holds as well as the ropes around his hands and arms and took off towards the boat.

"After him!" shouted Eomer, who was rather looking forward to digging a grave for Nogrod. But it was too late. Nogrod was far too quick, and had already pushed the boat out into the lake and was paddling like mad towards the fog bank that lay some thirty feet off the shore.

"The fog will surely let him pass," said Rikae, the wise-woman, "For it is clear from his physical prowess that he is in fact a Werewolf. His master controls the fog. He will go through."

As Nogrod disappeared into the mist, the villagers were certain that Rikae was correct. But even as they turned to walk back into the village, Nogrod appeared again, his back to the village, paddling with all his might directly towards them. The small vessel ground to a halt on the stony bank, and Nogrod leaped out with a laugh, but his smile died as he turned and found that the fog had betrayed him.

"Welcome back!" said Legate as he seized a broken paddle from the ground and struck Nogrod forcefully in the head.

Nogrod dropped to the ground, dead.

The fog boiled and billowed, and from its depths a voice cursed angrily.

Living-
Aganzir- hangwoman
Azaelia of Willowbottom- apprentice to Rikae
Boromir88- assistant to the apprentice to Rikae
Eomer of the Rohirrim- gravedigger
Farael- conspiracy theorist
Isabellkya- hen
Kath- milliner
Legate of Amon Lanc- lamp-maker/fiddler
Macalaure- jailer
mormegil- woodsman/carpenter
Nerwen- miller
Rikae- midwife/wise-woman
Shastanis Althreduin- herbalist
The Might- shephard
The Saucepan Man- traveling tinker
Valier- basket weaver

Dead-
Nogrod, reticent lumberjack- Day 1 lynch victim (WEREWOLF)

IT IS NIGHT 2. YOU MAY NOT POST.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Of the many laws which govern Middle Earth, some are taken quite for granted. And so it was that the sun which should have risen in the East the next morning caused quite a stir amongst the early risers by appearing just over the northern-most point of the island and calmly striding its slow way low around the horizon, a mere dull glow in the heavy fog.

Perhaps an hour after dawn, as the sun shone from a point which seemed to be a bit west to the west of north, a voice seemed carried to them by the wind, a voice of great beauty and power, of hope and wisdom.

"My children, do not fear, for triumph shall be yours, and you shall be glorified in my name!”

And the villagers cried out with laughter, brave and sure, though three were filled with great terror.

And another voice broke forth from every direction, crashing upon them violently, silencing the first, and cried “Begone, for your power is as nothing compared to mine! Begone, for my three shall destroy you and yours. Spirit, flee at my command, for this village is mine!”

With this, the fog seemed to recede from the shoreline and the villagers gasped as the rent and drained body of Shasta was revealed laying mangled in the gentle wash of waves. His face was pale, serene in his death, though many claw marks had cut his skin, and many plants of the water had tangled themselves through his hair and around his throat.

The first voice cried to the village, "Maintain hope and dread nothing!"

Yet the other voice returned, drowning the other, and said, "My three, together we shall rid this island of the undeserving who walk upon it."

And laughter echoed, causing the island to tremble, and the voice from afar was silenced, and the fog returned, and the village began to speak.

---

Living-
Aganzir- hangwoman
Azaelia of Willowbottom- apprentice to Rikae
Boromir88- assistant to the apprentice to Rikae
Eomer of the Rohirrim- gravedigger
Farael- conspiracy theorist
Isabellkya- hen
Kath- milliner
Legate of Amon Lanc- lamp-maker/fiddler
Macalaure- jailer
mormegil- woodsman/carpenter
Nerwen- miller
Rikae- midwife/wise-woman
The Might- shephard
The Saucepan Man- traveling tinker
Valier- basket weaver

Dead-
Nogrod, reticent lumberjack- Day 1 lynch victim (WEREWOLF)
Shastanis Althreduin- herbalist- Night 2 wolf slaughter (VILLAGER)

IT IS DAY 2. YOU MAY POST.

[mormegil]

Shata? An odd choice indeed. Of course, being a suspect with many people it is a good choice for the wolves in that it causes many of us to wonder as I am now.

I had a look over Nogrod's posts and one thing stuck out to me as I'm sure it did many others and was spoken of yesterday and now we should look at it in a new light, knowing he was a wolf. His little back and forth all day with Mac. What does it mean. Was it Nogrod going after an innocent or wolf going after wolf. That is a question that must be answered before the day is over in my opinion. We have a good chance of bagging another wolf if, as I think it to be, Nogrod was playing the wolf going after wolf strategy thinking it would buy one of them an exemption if the other were lynched.

Sadly, I haven't had time to review Mac's posts but hope to in the next 7 hours or so.

[Farael]

Well, let's take a look at the votes yesterDay

Nogrod 5 (Mac, Spm, Aganzir, Shastanis, Legate)
Nerwen 4 (Kath, Valier, Isabellkya, Eomer)
Shasta 4 (Farael, Rikae, Nerwen, Boromir)
Boro 2 (morm, Legate)
Rikae 1 (Nogrod)

There are two I've highlighted, I also underlined the Nogrod voters

Now, with two votes to go and Nogrod having a 5-3 lead over both Nerwen and Shasta, Eomer voted for Nerwen, pulling her up to 4 votes, with Boro still having his vote left.


Not happy about Nogrod being lynched. The way it happened looks odd to me.

Nerwen looks worse to me.

++NERWEN

It is a poorly explained vote, and it is almost admittedly trying to save Nogrod

Then Boromir votes for Shasta at the last moment. This is an interesting move and I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish by it, but if he meant to save Nogrod he could've by voting for Nerwen (keep in mind that the LAST person to reach a tie is the one lynched)

Finally, I'd like to note that Mac voted first for Nogrod which would have been a safe wolf-on-wolf vote.

So what do I gather from here

Eomer is looking iffy for trying to save a wolf with no clear explanation (however, he does not say "hey, let's save Nogrod" he just says "Nerwen looks worse". If he had wanted to save Nogrod 'cos he felt Nogrod made sense I could've thought Eomer a misguided ordo... but the way he put it I'm not so sure that's the case)

Boromir is looking better, quite simply because if he wanted to save Nogrod he could've.

I'm not sure I'm ready to think that the Nogrod-Mac debate is wolf-on-wolf, but I do note that Mac had a safe vote.

Edit: Fixed a mistake with the voting record

[Nerwen]

We have a good chance of bagging another wolf if, as I think it to be, Nogrod was playing the wolf going after wolf strategy thinking it would buy one of them an exemption if the other were lynched.

I wondered about that yesterDay. Their exchanges rang false to me for quite a long time. But then towards the deadline they seemed to be genuinely going after each other. And would Nogrod have been lynched at all if Mac hadn't started on him?

EDIT: X'd with Farael.

[Valier]

Hmmm I also have given a thought to the Nogrod/Mac thing yesterday. I do admit that it is a little bold for 2 wolves on day one to argue so much, drawing attention to one another, then one gets killed. But I also had the thought....what if they did this on purpose? remember the wolves can pm during the day. Both Nogrod and Mac are bold players and I wouldn't put this bold move past them. Nogrod garnered suspicion so early on and it makes me think they planned it that way hoping us villagers would think that after all that Mac is innocent. Thus letting him slip through our fingers for the rest of the game.

[Farael]

Hmmm I also have given a thought to the Nogrod/Mac thing yesterday. I do admit that it is a little bold for 2 wolves on day one to argue so much, drawing attention to one another, then one gets killed. But I also had the thought....what if they did this on purpose? remember the wolves can pm during the day. Both Nogrod and Mac are bold players and I wouldn't put this bold move past them. Nogrod garnered suspicion so early on and it makes me think they planned it that way hoping us villagers would think that after all that Mac is innocent. Thus letting him slip through our fingers for the rest of the game.

I wouldn't put it past either Nogwolf nor Mac. However, I'm still not sure about it. If you look at Mac's last post, it looks genuine to me.

Honestly, I'd hate to lynch Mac toDay and find him an ordo... what a payback for the most vocal advocant of lynching Nogwolf.

Also, looking back at Nogrod's posts there's his half-defense of Legate which would seem to implicate him as a wolf... but Legate cast the last vote for Nogrod so that's making him look rather good right now.

Edit: Grammar mistake

[Isabellkya]

I must echo. Shasta as the choice amongst the wolves is quite odd to me. He had been considered an easy lynch to some; and quite a few had voted for him. Which it would be a good thing for the wolves; to have that fodder in front of them. Unless of course their aim was to have us focus on that, rather than other things.

Eomer's vote and comment; don't strike me as that worrying. The sparseness, almost seemed to be a pre-emptive covering of Eomer's own behind, if Nogrod had turned out to be innocent. Yet the phrasing of the first sentence is all wrong to me.


X'd with Farael.

[Macalaure]

I've been looking at the way Nogrod has been treated by other villagers. I doubt Nogrod left leads to other wolves in his posts - it was Day 1, after all, and he would have to slip really badly to reveal one of the other wolves. The other wolves, however, seeing that Nogrod was about to be lynched, might have reacted in a telling way.

There is Eomer, who said very little substantial all day and then tried to rescue Nogrod in the last minute.

Boro attempted the same, but I can't read him at all at the moment. I will need to have a closer look at him later today.

However, would Wolf-Nogrod even want to be saved in the last minute? I would guess he's more the type of wolf who would go down for the team instead of telling them to save his skin come what may - especially since they were able to talk during the day. Still, Eomer and Boro are near my center of focus.

Isabellkya tried to defend him in #161

To me Nogrod seems to be his usual self, especially in his attitude towards wanting to lynch the quieter players over the louder ones. Quite understandable.. and I think I've seen such comments in every single game I've played with him. Probably because he always targets me as one of the more quieter players, and it is hard to not notice.
...
Macalure's insistance on lynching Nogrod is a bit worrying. Innocents have the freedom and luxury of debating and retracting votes when possible. Wolves however, when on a lynch-hunt don't have that.

This kind of subtle defense is more worrisome.


But who really stands out to me is, you might be surprised: Aganzir. Let me explain.

In #120, she starts with being inclined to think Noggie innocent, in a list with many others.
In #126, she comes up with the theory of Noggie and me both being wolves. It's interesting that she also picks Shasta, another Nogrod accuser/suspect. While this paints Nogrod in a bad light, it also casts a bad light on those who suspected him.
In #131, she continues exactly that approach by attacking SPM. She also attacks Kath, for taking my side even though only to a small extent.

Then she's away for the night, and comes back like this:
In #159, she calls me her prime suspect, but among the given candidates, she'd prefer Shasta or Noggie.
Then she votes him in #162, while keeping the back door of retracting to Shasta.
#173 is strange. Why does she put so much pressure on Shasta? If this is a campaign to get another vote for Nogrod, then why does she only address him? And what exactly makes her so suspicious of Nogrod that she would start campaigning for votes against him? As far as I understand, he was not her prime suspect, but only a better of two evils.

Maybe I'm over-interpreting, but this is how I see it:
When Wolf-Nogrod first got more heavily suspected, Wolf-Aganzir felt the need to help him. She's too smart to do it obviously, after Nogrod's death that would come back to her, so she does it not by defending, but by attacking all of Nogrod's accusers. She even brings in a wolf-on-wolf theory to make sure people won't suspect her to be on Nogrod's side.
Then she had a few words with her fellow wolves. Nogrod told her not to defend him, but to attack him if necessary. She keeps me as her prime suspect, but votes Nogrod. She can pull it because of the earlier wolf-on-wolf talk. She never gives any more serious reasons for it. But she keeps herself a back door with Shasta. She puts Shasta under pressure, hoping he would falter and give her an unsuspicious way out of her vote for Nogrod. But Shasta retracted, which left her with a dead co-wolf, but at least made her a main contributor to his death.


PS: The first one to give out a Mac-Nogrod-wolf-on-wolf-theory backed with at least a little reason wins a prize, all others who come up with it win a prominent place behind Aganzir on my list of suspects. ;)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, the count after first Day obviously is not that bad, though it looks more like pure luck than anything else. Nevertheless, a good luck. Now we stand in front of analysing what yesterDay and this Night's kill can tell us.

Shata? An odd choice indeed. Of course, being a suspect with many people it is a good choice for the wolves in that it causes many of us to wonder as I am now.
Obviously. Could there have been some other reason? After all, there was also the chance of getting Shasta lynched still. The wolves could have picked someone else from the "background". Yet, Shasta indeed leaves a few tracks. I guess this would deserve looking through; it is late here now, but I will surely do that soon.

Now:

What you say, Farael, about Eomer's and Boro's votes would make sense. Especially in the latter case, indeed, had Boro been a wolf, he could have saved his packmate with no problem. That makes me indeed feel better about him. Eomer, on the other hand, could have attempted a "savior strike" with hope for someone to retract... the thing is, he really appeared out of nowhere so we don't know whether he was waiting in shadows for the right moments to cast his vote or whether he just came as a simple villager to do his job.

Mac then... looking at his exchanges with Nogrod, I don't necessarily think it was a wolf on wolf debate, yet I am not also ready to drop this possibility from sight. I only skimmed through their yesterDay's posts, I would need more time to look at them deeper. But basically from I saw, I get the feeling of genuine accusations (from Mac at least).

It is terribly late here and I will be back tomorrow (RL, I mean). Till later.

EDIT: x-ed since Farael

[Rikae]

I've never seen a wolf be lynched because of his failure to recognise a christmas song before - and I was just trying to be 'in the holiday spirit', after all! :D
Now, something strange is going on today, and I think it's probably best to get all my thoughts out in the open here and see if anything can be made of them. Morm starts off by suggesting that Mac's attack on Nogrod was wolf-on-wolf, but makes no mention of anyone else involved in attacking Nogrod - his reasons for focusing on Mac aren't clear.
However, (although I hate to say it) Macalaure's post indeed looks sinister to me. I don't see how his arguments against Aganzir for turning so suddenly and viciously against Nogrod don't apply to Mac himself just as well, for although he opposed Nogrod from the beginning, he had little to back it up at first - it came out of the blue in what was quite possibly a preplanned way. Furthermore, his final "PS" sends chills up my spine. There is the same taunting, gloating quality there I saw Macwolf demonstrate in the last game.
Eomer & Boro's final votes look very different indeed, depending on whether or not they were crossed. I'd like to hear what they have to say about them toDay.
As for the wolf kill of Shasta, do you think they may have considered his jumpy behavior an indication of giftedness?

[The Saucepan Man]

Once again, apologies for my relative inactivity yesterDay, but my grip on events in this village was intermittent throughout the Day. I fear that age may be taking its toll on this world-weary traveller. I am still blacking out every so often, but I shall do what I can.

Hmm, why Shasta indeed? I can’t see any reason why the Wolves might have thought him a gifted and I would have thought that they would want to keep around anyone who had garnered as much suspicion as him. As I said yesterDay, he looked like a typical Day 1 scapegoat, and it seems likely that he would have been in the mix toDay, had he survived the Night. It’s not even as if his death doesn’t leave any trail. While his own accusations were pretty random and his votes more calculated to save his neck from the noose than anything else, he attracted a fair number of votes. Given that he was veering towards being s scapegoat, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there wasn’t at least one Wolf in his bandwaggon.

And as to the voting, like all of us here, I have encountered Werewolves before in my meanderings across Middle-earth, and I always like to look at the voting record in its entirety, including the timing of each vote. So, as is my wont, here it is:

Boro: ++Kath (Kath 1)
Mac: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 1)
SpM: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 2)
Kath: ++Nerwen (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1)
Farael: ++Shasta (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Boro: --Kath (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Valier: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 1)
Rikae: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 2)
Shasta: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2)
Morm: ++Boro (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2, Boro 1)
Nerwen: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Isabellkya: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Aganzir: ++Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Nogrod: ++Rikae (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Legate: ++Boro (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 2, Rikae 1)
Shasta: --Nerwen, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Legate: --Boro, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Eomer: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Boro: ++Shasta (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 4, Boro 1, Rikae 1)

Looking at this, I am quite puzzled as to why Nogrod didn’t do more to save himself. Why did he vote for Rikae when she wasn’t likely to be in the running for lynchification? And why didn’t he switch his vote at the last minute to either Shasta or Nerwen? My initial thought was that they too are Wolves and it would have done his pack little good, but Shasta’s proven innocence rather puts paid to that idea.

[Nerwen]

PS: The first one to give out a Mac-Nogrod-wolf-on-wolf-theory backed with at least a little reason wins a prize, all others who come up with it win a prominent place behind Aganzir on my list of suspects. ;)

Okay, now I'm really getting worried about you. That's just creepy.

As for the wolf kill of Shasta, do you think they may have considered his jumpy behavior an indication of giftedness?

Probably. The same things that made him look wolfish would have been interpreted differently by the actual wolves. I suppose we should look through his posts for anything that might have pointed to him as the Seer, though as I recall he mostly just agreed with other people.

Now, about Nogrod– if there was a wolf-on-wolf thing involved, what happened? Did they intend to sacrifice him all along, or was it a strategy that backfired?

I think his teammates could have saved him at the last minute– why didn't they? Deliberate decision, or just a communication breakdown? We do need to allow for this having happened over Christmas.

EDIT: X'd with SpM.

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, so what about this Mac-Noggie fratricide theory? It would certainly explain why Nogrod did so little to prevent his demise. But there are a few problems with it. If NoggieWolf and MacWolf agreed to have a little spat to distance themselves, then it got rather out of hand. Surely Mac would have backed off rather than voting for Nogrod as he did and then forcefully pressing for his death. I doubt that they would have agreed for the outset that Noggie should die and be proven a Wolf to make Mac look better. Of course, given that Wolves may converse during the Day, its possible that they hatched the plan ‘on the hoof’ as it were, as the votes against Noggie stacked up.

On the other hand, it’s possible that there is merit in Mac’s theory that, having racked up a fair few votes, Nogrod subsequently hatched a plan with his fellow Wolves that one or more of them would pile in and seek to help themselves by helping him to his death. That would support Mac’s theory about Aganzir, and her sudden switch to pressing for Noggie’s death does look strange, and it might possibly point towards Legate too.

Then there are the last minute votes from Eomer and Boro. It seems pretty clear to me, given the timing, that their votes crossed. Accordingly, it’s doubtful that they are both Wolves, as they would have been able to coordinate their votes to save Nog, if that’s what they wanted to do. But, surely, if one of them if is a Wolf and did make an effort to save Nog, then he would have been able to coordinate a last minute rescue with Nog himself.

Much to ponder toDay. But, since it’s late where I am and I seem to be having one of my intermittent episodes, I shall take my leave for now. Back later toDay, hopefully.

[The Might]

Ok, let me begin by apologizing for not voting yesterday, I got confused about the longer 1st Day and thought the deadline was 10 PM not AM. Anyway, I'll surely vote toDay. Well, Boro somehow seems rather innocent now, as he could have voted for Nerwen, in which case she would have been lynched as the last to get 5 votes. Or is this some strange WW tactic? Actually, Nogrod could have saved himself by -- Rikae and voting for Nerwen. but he didn't, although he was there till the deadline...I believe I am right about this. Does this not seem strange. It is true that Eomer's and Boro's votes also came in the last minute, but shouldn't Nogrod at least have tried to -- Rikae who clearly would not have been lynched and vote Nerwen? Unless of course this was planned...Nogrod taking one for the team as a plan? Crazy, but maybe true...

[Valier]

This really does get confusing when the Wolves can pm each other. They could have orchestrated a whole mess of different plans, It is hard to be sure which if any they decided to use. Now I do think the voting may help us a bit in coming up with some theories as to who may be a wolf. For me the most suspicious looking today are. Mac, Eomer, Aganzir, The Might

Mac because I still have a feeling he may be a cunning wolf. But he is the lowest for now on my list.
Eomer, because his vote placement and way of explaining his vote seemed odd.
Aganzir, for the same reasons SPM and Mac have pointed out. He has seemed a little too planned in his actions.
The Might...Well his last post is odd and gives me a weird feeling.

[The Saucepan Man]

Before I go for the night, I have been pondering this theory of Mac’s about Aganzir, and I‘m not so sure about it. At the time Aganzir voted, Nogrod had 2 votes, Nerwen had 4 and Shasta had 3. So why hatch a plan to kill Nogrod when it was far from likely that he would be the one to die? Although, at that point, Shasta was threatening to switch his vote to Noggie, there was no indication that Legate would vote for him. Surely a Wolfish Aganzir would simply have voted either for Shasta or Nerwen, particularly as she had already expressed suspicion for Shasta, rather than voting for someone she had previously thought of as likely innocent - a risky vote for a Wolf.

Mac, on the other hand, really started pressing for Noggie’s death following Aganzir’s vote and at a time when it looked like Shasta might well switch (as he indeed did). And he also immediately picked up on Noggie’s seemingly contrived reason for voting for Rikae. Now that could certainly have been planned between them. Nogrod, seeing that he might well be lynched, votes for Rikae with poor reasoning and Mac seizes on this to encourage further votes, having voted for him earlier. A MacWolf stood to gain from Noggie’s downfall far more than an AganWolf, surely. He could have switched votes to save Noggie, I suppose, but that would have looked awfully strange, and would therefore have risked spelling the doom of both, rather than just one, of them.

Well, Boro somehow seems rather innocent now, as he could have voted for Nerwen, in which case she would have been lynched as the last to get 5 votes.Unless, of course he and Nerwen are fellow Wolves. Which could explain why Nogrod didn’t vote for her. Although it doesn’t explain why he didn’t vote for Shasta.

Bah! My brain’s fading. Time to go.

[Nerwen]

I hadn't realized how close the voting was at the time of my last post. Indeed, there was nothing to stop Nogrod saving himself by switching his vote to either Shasta or me. (Yes, that's either of us, thankyou, Might.)

So– was his Rikae vote a suicide, or was it arranged for someone to cast another vote for one of the other candidates, and something went wrong? I don't know. Perhaps he simply lost track and didn't realize he could still save himself.

This makes it all the stranger that the wolves killed Shasta. You'd think they'd have every interest in keeping him alive.



OT: I'm sorry to hear you're not well, Saucepan Man.

[mormegil]

So in reading over what Macalaure has said about Nogrod is interesting. His sole focus from essentially the first post was Nogrod and Nogrod alone. There is one post in which he considers a few others but it's merely a cursory glance.

Rereading his arguments I find some lucidity in them, which for day 1 is rather surprising. I have been vacillating between him being innocent and guilty and have leaned both ways and frustratingly I'm no nearer to a conclusion. It's irritating too because I am trying to look at others but I really want some finality in my mind. I will continue to give it more thought. In the meantime I notice that SpM has given a response to The Might that is almost identical to what I would give.

Unless, of course he and Nerwen are fellow Wolves. Which could explain why Nogrod didn’t vote for her. Although it doesn’t explain why he didn’t vote for Shasta.

It may not have mattered who he voted for at that point. For convinience I'm going to copy the voting list SpM already included.

Boro: ++Kath (Kath 1)
Mac: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 1)
SpM: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 2)
Kath: ++Nerwen (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1)
Farael: ++Shasta (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Boro: --Kath (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Valier: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 1)
Rikae: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 2)
Shasta: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2)
Morm: ++Boro (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2, Boro 1)
Nerwen: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Isabellkya: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Aganzir: ++Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Nogrod: ++Rikae (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Legate: ++Boro (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 2, Rikae 1)
Shasta: --Nerwen, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Legate: --Boro, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Eomer: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Boro: ++Shasta (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 4, Boro 1, Rikae 1)

The legate switch vote is interesting as it essentially put away Nogrod and if Nerwen is a wolf it could be argued that Legate is also one and that his vote was to help prove innocence. If Boro or Eomer (not both) is a wolf that could explain why they didn't vote Nogrod but I think I'm off base and geting into unrealistic scenarios...however with that said Eomer and Boromir are perfect candidates to pull off the most unrealistic of scenarios.

Looking at earlier voting, there seems to be a lot of 'safe' votes honestly. It became very clear that there were only 3 legitimate candidates for day 1 and it would be very helpful to know what they were....we do know 2 of the 3 so in that regard the wolves helped us out a bit by killing Shasta. Knowing if Nerwen is a wolf would help tremendously in figuring out the voting pattern.

Speaking of Nerwen she still seems to be a top suspect, which I feel is good as she hasn't sat right with me but I haven't done much independent investigative work on her as I've been focused elsewhere. Honestly, I know this sounds callous, I suggest lynching Nerwen to figure out what she is and I suspect there is a good chance she is a wolf. A lot of questions would be answered. Of course, we shouldn't kill her unless there is sufficient suspicion which I feel there is a good deal of so far. I hope to be able to review her a bit more on my own soon. If I do, it will likely be much later in the day though. Can anybody help me out here?

Although now I'm looking at things a bit differently...Would the wolves, assuming Nerwen is a wolf, have all voted for one of their own? If not, it doesn't make sense to kill Shasta. ARGH! I feel I keep talking myself in circles...I'm really just typing as I think so sorry for my endless ramblings as I sit here and stare at the voting record trying to make some sense of it.

[Boromir88]

Well, to be honest, I was trying to save Nogrod...as I indicated in my last post voting for Shasta. I never like last second bandwagons, they worry me and usually turn out bad. This one happened to be a pleasant surprise, but in the spur of the moment I figured Nogrod was innocent and didn't like the votes piling up against him.

Now, onto whether Mac and Nogrod conspired a lynching. I highly doubt it. For the moment, I think Mac's sharp instincts were on and he genuinely bagged a wolf in the beginning, it wouldn't be the first time. I would hate to lynch him today when I think there are far more devilish looking people (for example, morm who I was going to vote for yesterday, but doing so would have turned out to be a waste...and today he hasn't done any good for himself by jumping out early and trying to push the Mac-Nogrod thing...or I find those who hardly had any interaction with Nogrod - Isabell, The Might, Valier - far more wolfish looking than those who aggressively went after him yesterday).

Wolves enter into a village with a tremendous advantage, they know who's side everyone is on...we don't. Why would they wish to lessen their numbers right off the start, especially since Day 1 is a "lottery"? I've seen some clever wolves, like Fea and Kuru, throw out jests and jokes in the beginning with eachother, but a wolf sacrificing himself on day 1 from the start? That's something I've never seen. Now, maybe towards the end with the wolves ability to PM Nogrod told his pals he wanted to be lynched...but Mac was onto Nogrod from the very beginning. And I'm thinking Mac, being the instinctive innocent he is, noticed something wasn't right with Nogrod and justly went after him. There are far more wolvish looking things than some crackpot theory that Mac and Nogrod planned this from the beginning.

Let's not forget that yesterday, I believe the possibility that Mac was a wolf was started by Aganzir and there was considerable discussion about it. Is Aganzir a wolf? I don't know, as far as her I'm unsure. I'm simply pointing out that was discussed yesterday and it's possible the wolves would want to come out and try to push that view...which is why I think morm is another wolf.

Also, I'm suspicious of those who had very little interaction with Nogrod yesterday. Granted these individuals didn't post as much as others, but they could be quiet wolves trying to distance themselves. I'm more afraid of them than I am of the slight possibility that Mac and Nogrod planned all that yesterday. Those like Eomer, Isabell, Valier, and The Might...but the one I keep going back to is morm. I find it interesting that Nogrod had morm pegged on his "innocent list" (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=540586&postcount=111) yet I believe that is the only time Nogrod mentioned him, and I don't believe morm had much interaction with Nogrod either. Nogrod both had interactions with Rikae and Legate, but not morm.

edit: crossed with morm

[mormegil]

Now, onto whether Mac and Nogrod conspired a lynching.

Why would they wish to lessen their numbers right off the start, especially since Day 1 is a "lottery"? I've seen some clever wolves, like Fea and Kuru, throw out jests and jokes in the beginning with eachother, but a wolf sacrificing himself on day 1 from the start? That's something I've never seen.

This is something I have seen and that is why I wanted to make sure we consider the possibility.


Also, I'm suspicious of those who had very little interaction with Nogrod yesterday. Granted these individuals didn't post as much as others, but they could be quiet wolves trying to distance themselves. I'm more afraid of them than I am of the slight possibility that Mac and Nogrod planned all that yesterday.

I agree with this Boro, but the problem with it is one day 1 people tend to get ignored because there are 18 total of us. There also needs to be some consideration given to the length of time some of us had. It is difficult enough to talk about every other villager on day 1 but during the middle of a holiday it's a tall request. So what I am asking is that you consider this as suspicion or evidence but do not solely base your theories on this...especially on day 1.

Well, to be honest, I was trying to save Nogrod...as I indicated in my last post voting for Shasta I find this as genuine, honestly.

[Boromir88]

Before I get to bed another thing about Nogrod that came to me...

There was another village when I was the seer and Nogrod was a wolf...we had lynched two wolves and Nogrod, being the sly wolf he was cast, crucial votes to get both of them lynched. So wolves voting for eachother isn't something new, but I did notice a behavior of Nogrod's that might prove useful. I never dreamt of Nogrod in that village, I assumed he was innocent because of his voting record, since I never went after Nogrod and he buddied up to me. But those who suspected him, and were after him, he aggressively lashed back and accused them.

As a wolf a couple times, those people who are onto you can be a real thorn in your side. It takes a bold wolf to kill a thorn in your side at night, because then you look bad the next day. The best way then, if you're a wolf and you have someone suspecting you, to get them lynched. You buddy up to those who trust you and try to lynch those who are a pain in the butt. That's what Nogrod did when I remember him last as a wolf...just something else to consider in the whole Mac-Nogrod, who are the other wolves, scheme of things.

[Nerwen]

Morm, before you decide to suspect me, please go back and look at the reasons people gave for voting me yesterDay. Apart from Shasta's open self-defence vote, they're all really strange. I think I'm being objective when I say that I did not do anything to warrant getting so many votes.

EDIT: fixed bolding.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by SpM
Unless, of course he and Nerwen are fellow Wolves. Which could explain why Nogrod didn’t vote for her. Although it doesn’t explain why he didn’t vote for Shasta.

It may not have mattered who he voted for at that point. For convinience I'm going to copy the voting list SpM already included.

But it actually does matter, because in this game it's the last one to reach the total that gets it. So he could have got Shasta or me lynched quite easily, as long as he waited until there was no time left for anyone else to vote.

[Valier]

Well I'm off to bed and not too much progress has been made today. We are back to the 24 hour cycle now right? So day ends at 10:00 pm GMT right? If so I won't have alot of time in the morning to read everything and vote and I won't be back till a couple hours past the deadline....So it looks like I will have to vote for someone now.

Uggg I'm not too sure, hopefully if anything changes overnight I will have time to change my vote before I go to work if needed.

++Aganzir

Not too much to go on, but circumstances surrounding her makes her suspicious in my books. Next on my list would be The Might or Macalaure. So if Aganzir has some good points before I go I may just change.

Sorry 'bout the flip-floppy but it's been fairly quiet and I'm just unsure.

[Nerwen]

Valier, what are your reasons for suspecting The Might?

[Isabellkya]

Boro: ++Kath (Kath 1)
Mac: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 1)
SpM: ++Nogrod (Kath 1, Nogrod 2)
Kath: ++Nerwen (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1)
Farael: ++Shasta (Kath 1, Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Boro: --Kath (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 1, Shasta 1)
Valier: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 1)
Rikae: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 2, Shasta 2)
Shasta: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2)
Morm: ++Boro (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 2, Boro 1)
Nerwen: ++Shasta (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Isabellkya: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 2, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Aganzir: ++Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1)
Nogrod: ++Rikae (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Legate: ++Boro (Nogrod 3, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 2, Rikae 1)
Shasta: --Nerwen, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 2, Rikae 1)
Legate: --Boro, ++Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 3, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Eomer: ++Nerwen (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 3, Boro 1, Rikae 1)
Boro: ++Shasta (Nogrod 5, Nerwen 4, Shasta 4, Boro 1, Rikae 1)


Wolves enter into a village with a tremendous advantage, they know who's side everyone is on...we don't. Why would they wish to lessen their numbers right off the start, especially since Day 1 is a "lottery"? I've seen some clever wolves, like Fea and Kuru, throw out jests and jokes in the beginning with eachother, but a wolf sacrificing himself on day 1 from the start? That's something I've never seen. Now, maybe towards the end with the wolves ability to PM Nogrod told his pals he wanted to be lynched...but Mac was onto Nogrod from the very beginning. And I'm thinking Mac, being the instinctive innocent he is, noticed something wasn't right with Nogrod and justly went after him. There are far more wolvish looking things than some crackpot theory that Mac and Nogrod planned this from the beginning.


It is hardly unheard of for wolves to have crackpot strategies. Strictly speaking in terms of the votes; at the present time I am having a hard time thinking Mac is a wolf, purely for the reason that he was the first to vote for Nogrod[/]. It would be a very risky strategy, to place the first vote on a fellow wolf; at the risk of a bandwagon following.. especially in this case since [b]Nogrod had been under the suspicion light. I think that there is atleast one wolf amongst the Nogrod voters. It is quite common to place a vote for your fellow wolf when they are at the risk of being lynched.

SPM was the second to place a vote against Nogrod, and it was quite early. I am doubting he is a wolf.. yet it is quote possible he could be.

Aganzir's vote against Nogrod is a bit confusing if she is wolfy. When she placed her vote, Nerwen had the most votes, followed by Shasta. If she is wolfish, then I wonder if something had been said to make her place her vote against her wolfmate; rather than go with one of the others who were more in danger of being lynched. Yet the entire timing of the vote, worries me.

Legate's vote against [b]Nogrod[/] I think jumps at me the most. Nogrod had already been in the lead, yet if wolfy why put that extra vote? To cover a behind when lynched?

Nerwen still bothers me, some of her posts have just been odd.

hmmm, more re-reading to do.

Forgot some tags.

[Nerwen]

Legate's vote against Nogrod[/] I think jumps at me the most. [b]Nogrod had already been in the lead, yet if wolfy why put that extra vote? To cover a behind when lynched?

If I am not mistaken, Legate's vote was the one which put Nogrod in the lead.

Why does it jump out at you?

[Isabellkya]

Shasta's retract voting of you, and voting of Nogrod put him in the lead.

It is odd, because he seemed to do it; to save you. Yet, you didn't need saving.

[Nerwen]

Ah, you're right– but look at the times on those posts near the deadline. Votes were coming thick and fast and crossing each other, so he probably thought it was up to him.

Anyway, Nogrod had just started acting in an extremely wolfish manner. If I'd been there I think I'd have changed my vote to him too, to make sure. It all seems quite reasonable to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, so it seems things are stirring.
First, I looked at Mac-Nog discussion yesterDay. I find it quite hard to believe that it would be a wolf-on-wolf debate: both Mac and Nog are very clever and experienced players of course, but planning such a thing would be rather risky. I find it hard to believe that it would be a plan (either a plan that got out of hand, being very risky in itself, or very hardly a plan prepared the whole time). So whichever direction the wind blows, I am inclined to look at Mac as on an innocent now.

I believe yesterDay, the wolves simply failed to save Nogrod from the gallows. Concerning his vote for Rikae, I believe it was simply a waste of a vote - unless it was a wolf-on-wolf safe vote, which is also an option (a safe one at that time; though I would expect Nog to act in a more clever way. Though maybe actually this is a clever way). Anyway, the matter now is that it was not Nog's last vote. Yet there is this why, why not to retract? Nog could have voted Nerwen or Shasta and saved his neck. So, why? The logical reason about Nerwen would be indeed that she is a fellow wolf and it wouldn't help. Yet why not Shasta, about whom we know was innocent? There is the possibility that (since Eomer's vote came first) he did not notice vote for Shasta by the time he posted, and he thought it was too late. In that case it would be logical that Nerwen could be a fellow wolf whom Nog did not want to vote for. The yesterDay's votes for Nerwen were strange, as I said, and I did not find anything suspicious about her back then. Yet there is something strange, something illogical, something unusual and creepy going around here. I get the feeling the wolves want to get us all puzzled.

Okay, whatever. I don't know if I will be here for DL toDay, and in case I won't, I will have to vote very soon, in about an hour at maximum. So please, if anyone is around here and has anything useful to say, please do so. At least thank tp for retractable votes, if I return, I can always change my vote yet depending on the events that happen meanwhile. Here are some thoughts on people overall:

Farael - quite reasonable, helpful, seeming genuine. I can agree with most of his comments and this far, I can't see anything suspicous about him.

Mac - as I said, given starting the bandwaggon and his exchanges with Nog and even the overall behavior I don't think he is a wolf.

Rikae - like I said yesterDay, seems more or less normal to me. Nothing necessarily suspicious this far.

Boro - his vote yesterDay made me feel better about him. Yet there are still things that do not sit well with me. But, I am now lowering my suspicions on him, and wait how things go in the future.

SpM - not sure what to think of him. He is seeming to be helpful, as always, reasonable, as always, and he is this always whether he is innocent or wolf. Need to form clearer picture of him yet.

Mormegil - once again one of the vocal, helpful and reasonable seeming players. Nothing sinister-looking about him this far.

Aganzir - not sure about this one. I am somewhat critical towards Mac's theory. Yet, Agan-wolf is always clever and able of good tacticising, and had they been together as wolves with Nog, well, that would make two of them capable of maneuvering through Day 1 in keeping the needed attitude towards each other. So, Aganzir remains on the edge of the orange zone for me.

Eomer is an enigma to me, yet an eyebrow-raising enigma. His vote at the end of the Day could be, in my opinion, the wolvish vote to try to save Noggins. Eomer participated so little till now, so I don't want to jump to anything till I see more from him, but the little he did makes me wary.

Nerwen. Ah well. Yesterday I did not find anything suspicious about her. Yet... I can't get out of my head the possible wolvish plot and Nog not retracting to Nerwen because he would kill a fellow wolf by it. Honestly, I don't find anything much suspicious on her, but I know she is very careful and as a wolf she would surely be a dangerous and sneaky one. I don't know what to think.

Isabell in this game very interestingly seems to act in very vocal, reasonable and helpful-looking manner. I haven't seen this side of her, and I am quite happy about it. This far, I don't find anything that would seem suspicious on her, at least not on first sight.

Kath made me wary yesterDay and she did not appear toDay still, so I will wait to form my opinions on her more precisely.

Valier is acting in a very confusing way, I must say, and the way she votes, especially, makes me feel uneasy. Her reasoning, as I said even yesterDay, is not quite... logical. Also the way she voted yesterDay could seem like simply supporting a "challenge bandwaggon" against Nogrod. And toDay, she once again votes as if under some planned scenario - "Aganzir seems that she will gather suspicion today, let's vote her", you know what I mean? I don't like that.

About The Might I am not sure what to think. In all games I played with him before, he used to act... how to say that... less independantly :p Could it be that he has some outer guidance? Also his yesterday's suspicions (well, they were not exactly suspicions, rather some "thoughts ventilated") on Shasta could also have been a way to join the generally suspected subject. There is something wrong about this TM, and I am somewhat concerned with him this time.

Oh, and
Legate's vote against Nogrod[/] I think jumps at me the most. [b]Nogrod had already been in the lead, yet if wolfy why put that extra vote? To cover a behind when lynched?
If you look back then you'll see I cross-posted. So in fact, technically I was the one who put Nogrod in the lead. It was not extra vote, it was THE vote (looking from my point of view).

EDIT: x-ed with Isa & Nerwen.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

There is a simple explanation for my vote and the lack of reasoning that went with it. It was Christmas morning; I woke at 10.15; I made breakfast and opened presents until 10.45; I had 15 minutes to skim-read the thread.

It was difficult. I didn't think Nogrod was a wolf (nice bit of judgment from me there!) and Nerwen had at least caused me to ponder (as I had pointed out the day before). I didn't want to waste my vote on someone else who couldn't be lynched. That's why I voted Nerwen instead of Nogrod.

With my somewhat biased view on things (;)) this makes me look quite innocent. If a wolf is leading the votes 5-3 (I believe those were the numbers) with two minutes to go before deadline, why would a fellow wolf appear and mount a comically late attempt to save him? Not voting is suspicious; throwaway votes are suspicious. At the time I would rather have seen Nerwen lynched. I now see how wrong I was.

[Aganzir]

What an exciting feeling. I just received my first WW vote ever.

Is there any chance the wolves thought Shasta was the seer? Vague accusations against Nogrod in his very first post, and he backs off quickly when people ask if it was a joke. Someone mentioned he looked nervous. "And even if he isn't the seer", the wolves thought, "the village will wonder all the day why he was killed."

Why does she put so much pressure on Shasta? If this is a campaign to get another vote for Nogrod, then why does she only address him?
I suspected Nogrod more than Shasta. Nerwen looked more innocent than either of them. I had said I'd switch to Shasta if it started to seem Nerwen would be lynched, and reminded Shasta of this. (By the way, it was Shasta, not me, who was the first one to notice you two were so suspicious of each other so early.)
I think you're not over-interpreting, Mac, but deliberately trying to find reasons to think I'm a wolf, and that is because you'd rather I spent my time defending myself than going on suspecting you.

Ok. Another thing. Nogrod's post #164 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=540708&postcount=164) and Rikae. Why did Noggie start suspecting her then? It could be a last-minute case against a fellow wolf. It could be a last-minute case against an innocent that is supposed to look like a case against a fellow-wolf. A bluff, double-bluff, triple-bluff?
I thought this would be good to bring forward. I don't suspect Rikae at the moment, but it always means something if a wolf makes a case against someone when it's clearly too late to lynch him/her anymore.
For example, maybe the wolf wants us to think it was a case against a fellow so that we lynch a player who is dangerous for the pack...

edit: xed with Legate and Eomer

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

"Nogrod's first post was, strangely, shorter than mine. What does this say about him?

-Nogrod is hiding "off the radar". He's obviously a wolf.
-Nogrod is too busy to pay much attention to this game. A perfect cover for a wolf.
-Nogrod is letting us come to our own conclusions, without exerting too much influence. Waiting for the right moment to make an opportune push... much like a wolf might do.

I think we have our answer here, don't you?

The herbs have made me loopy, the herbs have made me loopy.... "

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe the wolves thought it was a straight-forward seer hint. Seems most likely to me. If that's true then I'm not sure what more Shasta said that worried them, if anything.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I found out I have less time on my hands as I spent too much time writing the post above. No time. I would have needed some more time to sort things out, yet there is none.
Therefore, I vote

++Valier

for what I said above. I really hope I will be able to return before DL, though I cannot say that for sure nor even grant if I'd have time to read things properly even if I return. Good luck.

[Boromir88]

I don't know whether I'll be back before the deadline today...usually I can be but today I have to run my car into the mechanics to get a wheel bering, that I hear can take a couple hours.

Valier is acting in a very confusing way, I must say, and the way she votes, especially, makes me feel uneasy. Her reasoning, as I said even yesterDay, is not quite... logical.~Legate
Valier use logic? Well, you could say she uses her own form of logic, it's not the logic you use however.

hmmm...I think I'm going to vote for:

++mormegil

[Nerwen]

I'd just like to talk about Kath, and her attacks on me yesterday, which I think are quite wolfish:

Early in the Day, Nogrod said

the cursed one who could be our toughest enemy later in the game... as even the even the word of the seer can't be trusted 100% in the end.

and I replied,

Hey, come back! Are you saying the Seer could BE the cursed?

Now, for a moment there I actually had thought that's what he meant. (In fact I'm still not quite sure he didn't.) I asked in a slightly over-the-top way because, well, that was the mood at the time. Everybody was half-joking, trying to get things started.

Then, later in the Day, along comes Kath:

Nerwen, well I know she's naturally loud but she seems unnaturally jumpy at the moment. When she screamed at whoever it was to come back because they'd made a comment about the Seer possibly being the cursed, which they actually hadn't. I know that she hasn't played with a cursed before (well I say I know, I'm pretty sure) but the wording in tp's early posts seemed pretty clear. Could have been a sudden 'what the-' reaction but it seems over the top

Now there's two things I'd like to draw attention to in this post. One is her use of hyperbole ("screamed"), the other is how careful she is to avoid mentioning Nogrod's name ("whoever it was"). I think she must have just read those early posts– did she really not know who had (apparently) made the original suggestion?

Then Nogwolf himself gets in on the act:

Nerwen: She's calm and makes good and valuable points, especially about the wolves (which could go either way). Her lightness of tone sounds not the most comfortable to my ear. If someone could be accused of trying to lead the discussion into the nonsense -area it would be Nerwen with her suggestion of the seer being possibly the cursed one.

So I tried to explain:

Regarding my controversial Cursed Seer theory: okay, yes, it was silly– but it was early in the Day, nobody was being serious– so I find it a bit odd the way Nogrod and Kath have reacted.

But that still isn't good enough for Kath:

Nerwen, you say your suggestion of a cursed Seer wasn't serious, but it certainly felt it. People were throwing out ideas and though they were unlikely scenarios (such as tp telling certain people to post certain things in the pre-game discussion) they were meant seriously, so I don't see that you can put your own unlikely theory in the same category if you meant it in a facetious way.

I really couldn't be bothered taking her up on that. I was starting to feel that she wanted to make me spend the whole Day defending myself, all because of a trivial comment.

Then I said this to Aganzir (in the course of a post that was mainly about other people, and replying to her suggestion that Nogrod and Mac were wolves):

Aganzir, I've thought of that too. Their reactions do seem over the top. I'm not ready to vote for either of them yet, though, but I'm watching them.

On that note, what about the possibility that Boro and Kath are both wolves?

Kath's response (posted shortly afterwards):

Back quickly as I've discovered I won't have a chance to vote before the deadline tomorrow. So:

++NERWEN

She was my top suspect as of my last post for her jumpiness and her confused explanation of her early theories.

Now, I just don't believe her. I don't think I was jumpy, I don't think my explanation was confused and I don't think my interpretation of Nogrod's words was unwarranted.

Oh, and if anyone cares to read through Kath's posts, I think you'll see she's been pretty jumpy herself.

EDIT: X'd with Eomer, Aganzir, Eomer again, Legate and Boromir88.

[Kath]

I've only a few minutes as we're going to lunch (I have eaten so much the past few days I'm not sure I can take anymore!) but I thought I'd answer Nerwen's points against me since I'm here and I just read them.

I said screamed because the way it was written sounded so over the top that I could practically hear you yelling in my head. I didn't put Nogrod's name because I couldn't recall who had said it. It was your reaction more than what you were reacting to that caught my attention. At the time I had to post quickly (as seems to be a recurring theme at the moment :rolleyes:) and so I didn't bother to look since it didn't really matter.

And you know I pretty much did want you to spend your time defending yourself. I was suspicious of you, for fair enough reasons in my own mind even if you do not believe them, and I wanted to know what you had to say for yourself. You do seem jumpy, spiky even, determined that no one should think evil of you even for a second, or at least that's how it seems. And I still think your explanation was backwards.

Nogrod's death came about in such an odd way. He is a very experienced player and knows the kind of thing that is likely to get you lynched, and that comment he made on Rikae's throwaway last line is exactly the kind of thing that will get people's attention. Now, I may be biased by my opinions above but I think it quite possible that Nog would sacrifice himself to save a wolvish Nerwen in order that for the rest of the game she might be considered mostly innocent.

I will come back later and ensure I look at other angles, as I have found to my cost many times that focusing on one individual is just not a good idea.

[Macalaure]

Some thoughts on Boromir.

Wow, is this village stacked, or what? If I was a wolf I would be as scared as hell.I think I missed this line yesterday. It does sound as if it could have come from a bold werewolf, which Boro would be.

There's been a lot of talk about the "us" thing. I think this comment looks innocentish. The "Batman" line made me grin. What is odd is that he gives a lot of valid criticism on Nogrod, but still thinks he's acting like he always does. If he thinks that, then why spend so much time on those criticism?

His vote for Kath doesn't ring an alarm for me. The way he responds to Farael's suspicions is strange. I can't say whether good strange or bad strange. I could see it both ways. In the post where he retracts from Kath he sounds rather reasonable.

He votes for known innocent Shasta instead of known evildoer Nogrod. Still, the way he gets there is understandable. Today (except for hesitating on my case against Aganzir ;)), he's only made statements I agree with, especially the worrisomeness of mormegil.

Conclusion? I think, at the moment, I'm leaning more towards the innocent side with Boromir, but not any more than leaning.


There was another village when I was the seer and Nogrod was a wolf...we had lynched two wolves and Nogrod, being the sly wolf he was cast, crucial votes to get both of them lynched.I remember that village vividly. It's part of the reason why I find it very probable that Nogrod told his fellows, or one at least, to cast a deciding vote against him, which Aganzir did.


Why does she put so much pressure on Shasta? If this is a campaign to get another vote for Nogrod, then why does she only address him?
I suspected Nogrod more than Shasta. Nerwen looked more innocent than either of them. I had said I'd switch to Shasta if it started to seem Nerwen would be lynched, and reminded Shasta of this.

I buy this, but I'm not sure whether it makes you less suspicious. You still gave Nogrod a deciding vote while maintaining a possibility to get out of it. I still don't understand what exactly made you suspicious of him. Your plan could have been to either look unsuspicious because of a crucial vote for a dead wolf, or to save your fellow without looking too suspicious because you at least put him into danger.
Like Nogrod, you only defended yourself against the accusations you were able to defend yourself against. But I just note it, I'm not telling you to do so now, because I'd be far more interested in regular posts by you.

[Nerwen]

Ok. Another thing. Nogrod's post #164 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=540708&postcount=164) and Rikae. Why did Noggie start suspecting her then? It could be a last-minute case against a fellow wolf. It could be a last-minute case against an innocent that is supposed to look like a case against a fellow-wolf. A bluff, double-bluff, triple-bluff?
I thought this would be good to bring forward. I don't suspect Rikae at the moment, but it always means something if a wolf makes a case against someone when it's clearly too late to lynch him/her anymore.
For example, maybe the wolf wants us to think it was a case against a fellow so that we lynch a player who is dangerous for the pack...

I have thought myself that the attack on Rikae probably means something, but I don't think there's any point worrying about it yet.

(quoting Shasta) "Nogrod's first post was, strangely, shorter than mine. What does this say about him?

-Nogrod is hiding "off the radar". He's obviously a wolf.
-Nogrod is too busy to pay much attention to this game. A perfect cover for a wolf.
-Nogrod is letting us come to our own conclusions, without exerting too much influence. Waiting for the right moment to make an opportune push... much like a wolf might do.

I think we have our answer here, don't you?

The herbs have made me loopy, the herbs have made me loopy.... "

I think that's pretty convincing. And it's only logical that they thought he was a gifted– I can't think of any other reason why he was killed.

Now, about Eomer himself: my current feeling is that his vote to save Nogrod was quite innocent. I think a wolf would have tried to cover himself more (firstly, by not saying he was trying to save a fellow wolf).

Then there's Valier: I think it would be nice if she gave actual reasons for her vote, as opposed to muttering vaguely about "circumstances".

I assume, though, that she's falling in with Mac's theories on Aganzir– which sound very, very forced to me. I mean, it's more than likely that there was at least one wolf among the Nogrod voters, but I don't think it was her.

EDIT: X'd with Kath and Mac.

[Nerwen]

I said screamed because the way it was written sounded so over the top that I could practically hear you yelling in my head. I didn't put Nogrod's name because I couldn't recall who had said it. It was your reaction more than what you were reacting to that caught my attention. At the time I had to post quickly (as seems to be a recurring theme at the moment ) and so I didn't bother to look since it didn't really matter.

Okay, maybe you're not so wolfish as I thought, Kath. But what you did do, then, is take that post right out of context. Apparently you could never even be bothered re-reading it, but you were prepared to lynch me on the basis of it.

And you know I pretty much did want you to spend your time defending yourself. I was suspicious of you, for fair enough reasons in my own mind even if you do not believe them, and I wanted to know what you had to say for yourself. You do seem jumpy, spiky even, determined that no one should think evil of you even for a second, or at least that's how it seems.

Well... I just can't see it. You, on the other hand, seemed jumpy to me– and still do. And would you have listened to anything I had to say in my own defence? Or would you have attacked me for being "defensive"?

Now that you've explained yourself I'm less inclined to think you guilty, but I can't say I'm happy about the whole thing. We'll see.

[Valier]

Well I see not much has been written while I slept. I would like to address a few things....I have explained this time and time again...I have a hard time explaining myself in these games. I read the thread and my brain comes up with weird connections. Sometimes I am unable to articulate what I found odd or suspicious about people. But I do try when it appears clearly to me.

My vote today, yes was a little hasty, as I was unsure if I would have time today to post before work. I got up a wee bit earlier and had time to read what has been said.

I think the exchange made recently between Nerwen and Kath seems odd. Why would you write up a whole post about why you defended yourself on Day one, when noone really asked? Then Kath just happens to come on after and "explains" herself and Nerwen your ok with that now and your whole posts which are all fairly close together, mean nothing now? looks orchestrated by wolves to me.

--Aganzir

++Nerwen

I'm not sure if this is the best move,and I hate to use my retract so early, but after I reread, Nerwen still looks suspicious from yesterday, more than Aganzir. and her posts today, just don't sit right with me.

[Nerwen]

My vote today, yes was a little hasty, as I was unsure if I would have time today to post before work. I got up a wee bit earlier and had time to read what has been said.

I think the exchange made recently between Nerwen and Kath seems odd. Why would you write up a whole post about why you defended yourself on Day one, when noone really asked? Then Kath just happens to come on after and "explains" herself and Nerwen your ok with that now and your whole posts which are all fairly close together, mean nothing now? looks orchestrated by wolves to me.

But that is not what happened, Valier. I wasn't explaining why I defended myself, I was giving reasons why I thought Kath might be a wolf. I said so at the top of my post. Do you actually read these things properly?

[Valier]

I'd just like to talk about Kath, and her attacks on me yesterday, which I think are quite wolfish:

But that is not what happened, Valier. I wasn't explaining why I defended myself, I was giving reasons why I thought Kath might be a wolf. I said so at the top of my post. Do you actually read these things properly?

The top quote to me sounds like you are trying to make Kath look guilty because she accused you, but you in turn are doing the same. So her "attacks" on you could not be warrented? She was only giving reasons why she thought you were a wolf, aren't you doing the same thing?

And yes for the most part I do read "these things" properly! It is super early in the morning here for me and I am trying as hard as I can to be useful. So my day and vote are not wasted!!

[Aganzir]

I've just spent hours experiencing with my new Linux & don't have too much energy at the moment.

I still don't understand what exactly made you suspicious of him.
Well, at least this is simple: you. Not your points against him but the argument you two were having.

I see the situation this way. Of the people alive now, I was the first one to mention Nog and Mac's dispute looked wolfish (Shasta, who noticed it first, is dead). Before Nog died, he accused & voted Rikae, possibly hoping we would think it was a wolf-on-wolf vote. I dare to guess Rikae is one of the most dangerous players for a Macwolf.
And when Nogrod is revealed to be a wolf, what does Mac do? He makes a big case against me. I'm not quite surprised. Trying to make me use my energy on defending myself rather than suspecting him. Ha, and even says I'm not defending myself enough ("only defended yourself against the accusations you were able to defend yourself against"). Doesn't work.

Seriously, read everything he posts for today very critical. If you think he's innocent, listen to him, if not, then don't let him twist your mind and please don't hesitate to vote for him.
This is not something an innocent says. If Mac thinks Noggie is a wolf, why on earth does he tell others to listen to him? He's saying "Even though I think Noggie is a wolf, I hope you others won't do that. Don't pay too much attention to my opinions, I can be wrong as well."
I can't put my finger on it any better, but it was something I didn't like even when I read it on Day 1. With Nogwolf dead, it makes me feel only worse about Mac.

I must go and look for some chains in the cellar now. Surely we don't want today's victim has a chance to escape, like Nog tried to do.
Will be back some hours before the deadline.

xed with Nerwen and Valier

[The Might]

I really dislike the way Valier throws accusations around without really saying why...seems quite wolvish to me. Of course yesterDays's vote could theoretically be an orchestrated event by the wolves, but I still doubt that Nerwen is a wolf, to me she rather seems to be an innocent getting to many accusations (I know how that feels). This feeling about Nerwen's innocence is also increased by Eomer's vote for her, considering the fact that Eomer is at the time my prime suspect. His vote seems quite wolvish and this explanation toDay of why Shasta could have been chosen seems as if he knew why the Wolves did that as one of them and tried to look helpful. All in all, Eomer seems quite furry and so I feel the need to vote: ++Eomer I am not quite sure if I will be able to be back until the deadline, I shall try and if I happen to change my mind based on the posts that will follow I might also change my vote for toDay. And to Legate, this has something to do with the fact that I have vacation now and thus a lot more time on my hands. So instead of learning for some test I can think a bit more rather then just post quickly. Btw, I strangely seem no to be able to bold anything?!?!? EDIT: Also my paragraphs are all mixed together...and when I'm posting the background is grey not black as usually...and I can't use smilies`...huh?

[mormegil]

I'm to post 225 and have a few comments.

Boromir seems rather cocky about the whole thing. A few comments have been given and the manner in which he presents himself doesn't sit well with me. I also find it odd that he basically refuses to believe the possibility that Mac/Nogrod were conspiring simply because 'it's never been done before'. Seems rather weak and that he's not open to other possibilities. His votes have been without any real reason. Something stinks of wet fur with that one.

Nerwen seems rather jumpy and wolfish too honestly. Sadly I haven't been able to do the detailed review of her but from what I read the first time through I get a sense that she is up to no good.

Kath seems to be pressed for time and a little irritated that she doesn't have more, which I can understand. I think her innocent.

SpM seems genuine but he can seem that way even if he is guilty. I am thinking innocent.

Isabel gives off bad vibes to me but I am unfamiliar with her so it could be a Kath/Farael/Lommy syndrome type person for me (I usually suspect those regardless)

Eomer ,while completely touched in the head, I think is innocent.

Valier is a bit more short and less substantive than normal which is unnerving.

The Might...I have no idea

Agan...I have no idea but some good points have been brought up and I have been dupped before by her so I think more pressure on her is a good thing.

Legate seems innocent and helpful

Mac despite my thought of the Mac/Nogrod conspiracy I think he is likely innocent though he is one that I will continue to monitor more closely.

I've probably missed a few but these are the ones on my mind the most right now...I will have time later to look a bit more and vote, though digging through old posts will be improbable for me at this point.

[Nerwen]

The top quote to me sounds like you are trying to make Kath look guilty because she accused you, but you in turn are doing the same. So her "attacks" on you could not be warrented? She was only giving reasons why she thought you were a wolf, aren't you doing the same thing?

*sigh* Here we go again. Valier, I did not think Kath guilty because she accused me. I thought she was guilty because of the nature of her accusation. Do you not understand the difference?

I thought there was a real chance she might be a wolf, so I wanted to discuss it. Then she responded, after which I decided it was less likely she was a wolf. That's all.

I am getting rather sick of you throwing accusations around based on either obvious misreadings or nothing at all.

Now how about you answer my question from earlier. What is so suspicious about The Might?

[The Saucepan Man]

OT: I'm sorry to hear you're not well, Saucepan Man.Thank you, but actually I’m fine. It’s my internet connection that keeps dying. I was trying to express it ‘in character’. :D

Although now I'm looking at things a bit differently...Would the wolves, assuming Nerwen is a wolf, have all voted for one of their own? If not, it doesn't make sense to kill Shasta. ARGH! I feel I keep talking myself in circles...Hehe, I know the feeling. Something weird was happening towards the end of Day 1, I am sure, but it’s got me completely confused. As to your substantive point, if Nerwen is a Wolf, it doesn’t make any sense that they would kill Shasta. If NogWolf’s behaviour was down to the fact that NerWolf’s head was also on the block, Shasta’s proven innocence takes away any cover that she might have had in that regard. I don’t think a Wolfish Nerwen would have killed Shasta.

Wolves enter into a village with a tremendous advantage, they know who's side everyone is on...we don't. Why would they wish to lessen their numbers right off the start, especially since Day 1 is a "lottery"? Well, if Mac is a Wolf, I don’t believe that was their original intention. On this line of thinking, they would have started out trying to distance themselves, but it got out of hand when others also started suspecting Noggie, so they hatched a plan to make Mac look good by encouraging Nog’s demise. That whole thing with Nogrod’s cod reasoning against Rikae and Mac jumping on it just looks starnge to me. Were it not for that, I would be more comfortable dismissing the MacWolf theory.

Another thing about Mac. He has slightly backed off his Aganzir theory. I wonder whether that might be because it was pointed out (by Rikae, I think) that the same line of reasoning applied to him (indeed moreso, given my earlier point that a MacWolf had more to gain from Nog’s death than an AganWolf).

The other possibility is that either Aganzir or Legate is a Wolf (or both are) and agreed with Nogrod in the final hours that they would turn against him to make themselves look good. Aganzir has explained her behaviour in voting for Nog and encouraging Shasta to do so, and it looks credible. And her vote came before Nog’s strange reaction to Rikae’s Christmas song. For that reason, Legate’s vote (on the basis of Nog’s starnge Rikae vote) actually sticks to me out as the more likely Wolf-on-Wolf vote fo the two.

Legate's vote against [b]Nogrod[/] I think jumps at me the most. Nogrod had already been in the lead, yet if wolfy why put that extra vote? To cover a behind when lynched?I agree, but not for the reason that you have given, but rather for the reasoning above.

Anyway, Nogrod had just started acting in an extremely wolfish manner. If I'd been there I think I'd have changed my vote to him too, to make sure. It all seems quite reasonable to me.Have you considered the possibility that Nog started behaving in an extremely Wolfish manner precisely because he wanted to give cover to a fellow Wolf to vote for him?

I believe yesterDay, the wolves simply failed to save Nogrod from the gallows.I really don’t agree with this. I am sure that there was at least one Wolf plus Noggie here at the deadline yesterDay. Given that they can communicate during the Day, they surely would have been able to save him had they wanted to.

Concerning his vote for Rikae, I believe it was simply a waste of a vote - unless it was a wolf-on-wolf safe vote, which is also an option (a safe one at that time; though I would expect Nog to act in a more clever way. Though maybe actually this is a clever way).I was thinking much the same. It is quite possible that a Wolf facing the gallows would put in a throwaway vote for a fellow Wolf to make them look good. But is it too obvious for Noggie? Either way, I don’t think that we can dismiss Rikae from the mix. She looks to have been acting fairly typically so far, but then I would expect a Wolf who was under no pressure to do exactly that.

Both Boro and Eomer have effectively ‘come clean’ and admitted that they were trying to save Noggie, because they thought him innocent. As I said earlier, if either was a Wolf and wanted to save him, they could have coordinated with Nog himself to do it. They both sound genuine enough to me so, for now, I am prepared to regard them both as putative innocents.

One villager who is beginning to concern me, however, is Valier. As we all know, she is a ‘hunch’ player, but my recollection is that she is normally quite confident in her hunches. Here, however, she seems far less sure about them. It doesn’t quite ring true to me, so I’ll be keeping my eye on her.

One final thought. If Azaelia does not post and vote toDay then, according to the phanto-mod’s rules, something bad will happen to her side. Not good if she’s innocent. But it may help us if she is a Wolf and, either way, might at least indicate which side she is on (assuming that she doesn’t get modfired as well).

[mormegil]

The more Nerwen speaks the more I think she is a jumpy wolf that feels that she needs to defend everything she does or says and any accusation thrown at her. Wolves often fall into this pitfall of getting overly jumpy and anxious and I think Nerwen has fallen into that pitall.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, but actually I’m fine. It’s my internet connection that keeps dying. I was trying to express it ‘in character’. :D

Well, that's good. You had me fooled.

Originally Posted by Nerwen
Anyway, Nogrod had just started acting in an extremely wolfish manner. If I'd been there I think I'd have changed my vote to him too, to make sure. It all seems quite reasonable to me.

Have you considered the possibility that Nog started behaving in an extremely Wolfish manner precisely because he wanted to give cover to a fellow Wolf to vote for him?

No, I hadn’t. That’s something to think about.

The more Nerwen speaks the more I think she is a jumpy wolf that feels that she needs to defend everything she does or says and any accusation thrown at her. Wolves often fall into this pitfall of getting overly jumpy and anxious and I think Nerwen has fallen into that pitall.

:rolleyes:So I guess you've had an attack of total amnesia about your own behaviour yesterDay, Morm?

Anyway, I have to vote now, in case I'm not able to later. While there are a number of people I suspect, I think Valier is the most prominent. I know people say she has "hunches", but this time, at least, I think she's using her reputation. It's all so much easier when you don't have to give proper reasons for your suspicions.

++Valier.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

There are so many villagers that discussion can get a bit complicated. So far I've backed off a bit and been more of an observer. This allows slightly less jumbled debate (because there is less of it). However, in the event of my death nothing much will have been achieved by my life (other than my beautiful grave which I have already dug), so that's why I'm going to summarize my current thoughts on all the villagers.

Aganzir: Clever. I think she's good to have around, and I have agreed with her on a few points.

Azaelia: N/A

Boromir88: Seems quite typical of him. Good for discussion. Could well be wolvish but if so will be found out later by his busy mouth.

Farael: Again, good for discussion. Considers everything. Useful for now.

Isabellkya: Clever; not too involved. Possibly playing observer like me. Will probably be much suspected later on.

Kath: Seems pretty innocent to me. I think Nerwen is wrong about her.

Legate: Doesn't feel too comfortable to me. I will watch him closely.

Macalaure: The Nogrod thing bothers me, and if Mac is innocent I along with many others will feel embarrassed at suspecting the man who did more than anything to bring the foul wolf down; but... he's creepy, that jailer.

Mormegil: For now I trust Mormegil. Fairly comfortable about him.

Nerwen: Still unsure. SPM made good point about wolf-Nerwen probably keeping Shasta alive. She seems a bit wrong to me, but I'm leaning towards thinking she's innocent.

Rikae: Exactly like Mac -- seems creepy to me. :p Not sure why but I never trust her.

The Might: Voted for me which I must disagree with. But I don't think he's a wolf. Worth watching maybe.

Saucepan Man: Sometimes he stirs me the wrong way; but often I find myself just agreeing with whatever he says. Here and now, I'm pretty sure he's innocent. It would be mad to lynch him now anyway.

Valier: There is no other player I find so wolvish everytime I see him/her. Valier worries me endlessly and I can never really explain it. She has a furry soul.

[Macalaure]

I am suspicious of the way morm's been mentioning me over the day. Everybody but him more or less quickly made up their mind about the Mac-Nog-wolves thing, even if they ended up with only a 'maybe'. Morm first puts me in the spotlight in the very first post - without any reason given. Then he mentions me again later - in an astoundingly fence-sitting way (and at the top of his post 202). It appears as if the Mac-Nog theory is the way he'd like to go, but is afraid to really pursue this path without properly testing the waters first. Later again, when only few people went this way, he backs off and declares me likely innocent.
I'm also suspicious of the way morm tried to get to friendly terms with Boro in 204.

About Aganzir I said enough. Saucepan, yes I backed away a little from her. This is exactly because of what you noted, too: her explanation sounds credible. She rings less alarms than Nogrod did yesterday, so I won't campaign against her like I did against him. I still think she's the most suspicious one at the moment.

I have yet to see a convincing case against Nerwen. The bandwaggon that seems to be slowly forming itself reminds me of the one that just lynched her innocent mother on Day 1.

I'm not sure what to do with Valier. She usually suspects and vote with little conventional reason, and I was happy to see her vote for Aganzir, but now she retracted to Nerwen. I think she's one to keep in the corner of one's eye, but there's nothing I could say about her yet.

I'm also at a loss concerning Isabellkya and Kath.

No or little alarms there are from Farael, Legate, Rikae, Saucepan, the Might, Boro, and Eomer. The number of innocent-looking people alone suggests that I'm probably wrong about one of them...

[Rikae]

It turns out that I'll have far less time today than I thought I would, so I fear I'll have to vote soon.
This debate between Nerwen/Kath/Valier looks ugly to me. None of them are really making any sense -Nerwen's original points about Kath seemed quite solid to me (the wording of "screamed" seems odd to me, too, and I don't see why Nerwen's confusion about the rules should have looked so suspicious to Kath yesterday), and I don't really see why she dropped it so quickly, as Kath's explanation really is no explanation at all. Still, I agree that a wolf-Nerwen would have been unlikely to kill Shasta.

Then Nerwen goes for Valier in a tone I don't quite approve of, but for reasons that I have to agree with, again. I can't see how Valier managed to misread Nerwen's points against Kath so flagrantly, and hunches aside, I simply don't trust this "no explanations" style of play. Macalaure has tracked down wolves by pure intuition as well (in other games - I don't quite trust him now), but at least he tries to find some factual support for his "hunches" rather than expecting the rest of us to go along with them simply because he says so.

At this point, my vote is likely to go to Macalaure, whose suspicions toward Aganzir simply have too little to back them up (why Aganzir? He seems to be just trying to convince us it's possible for her to be a wolf, without telling us why it's likely), or to Valier, who indeed seems to be "using her reputation", and her misinterpretation of Nerwen's post seems more like a deliberate misrepresentation to me.

I would also like one thing clarified (sorry if I missed something): Boro, you say you changed your vote to Shasta to save Nogrod. Why, then, didn't you switch to Nerwen instead?

EDIT: X'd with Mac

[Kath]

Rikae, my suspicion of Nerwen has nothing to do with confusion about the rules, it was just the way she reacted. Basically my suspicion of her rests on the idea that she was being completely over the top. I like that she is defending herself because I think it possible that the two of us are seeing things from completely different points of view and that's causing the problem. Which is also why I wanted you to keep answering me yesterDay Nerwen, I would not have said you were being 'overly defensive' because I wanted an explanation. Your lack of one is what finally convinced me to vote for you.

Oh, and speaking of that, I was going over the posts from yesterDay and you said that I voted for you right after you came up with a Boro/Kath wolf theory and that that made me suspicious. Can I ask why because I didn't entirely understand that.

But, now, as interesting as this all is I do need to take a look at the rest of the village while I actually have some time (everyone is now too stuffed to demand my attention!). So let's go for that tried and tested method, a nice list.

Aganzir ~ short but subtantial. I'll have to have a look at why people think she's suspicious in a bit because I haven't seen that and am inclined to think her innocent at the moment.

Zali ~ sadly non-applicable.

Boro ~ really not sure about him. He takes a comment by someone and then turns it into a generalised piece of advice. There was some more individual stuff later though.

Eomer ~ well he had a point about arguing yourself in circles. Still, I always want to see more from him. I know he observes, as I usually do, but a few more words would be nice.

Farael ~ as I said yesterDay he has actually been pretty reasonable. I'm not sure that I've seen him evil before though, and he is playing a little differently to normal, so maybe there is something there. He hasn't latched on to anyone to lynch yet and that's giving me pause for thought. He's been flicking between people and that just doesn't seem like him.

Izzy ~ not a lot of substance there.

Legate ~ there was some suspicion of his for his pre-game theory but I don't think there's much reasoning there. It was something to say to start off the Day and get people talking. Again he seemed to be being pretty reasonable.

Mac ~ I don't know. I just don't. I don't think I've ever been able to read Mac and I simply can't make up my mind about him.

morm ~ is feeling innocent to me, which has me worried (:p). What has me even more worried is that he actually has the same suspicions as I do. We'll have to see how that goes.

Nerwen ~ we know my feelings here.

Rikae ~ she does seem to be twisting words somewhat, at least when it comes to the argument between Nerwen and myself.

Might ~ I would like to know why if Shasta was guilty I would be too, that was an interesting comment. Also, within the space of about a minute he seems to change his mind over Nerwen, not sure if Might is the flip-floppy type but it was definitely odd.

Sauce ~ ... well, it's Sauce! What am I supposed to do? The Seer could reveal him as innocent as I'd still be suspicious. I may reserve judgement for now as we've seen so little of him.

Valier ~ as I recall I accused her of playing on her reputation last game and she turned out to be innocent so I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Also, she seems to be defending the way she plays rather than advocating it this game.

Hmm, that isn't quite as comprehensive as I'd like it to be but I have to go again. I will just quickly outline my suspicions, though not in any particular order.

Suspicious:
Nerwen
Farael
Rikae
Might

Innocent:
Valier
Legate
Aganzir

No idea:
Sauce
morm
Mac
Izzy
Eomer
Boro
Zali <-- obviously.

Given a little more time I should be able to cut down that 'no idea' list a bit because it is way too long. I would really love for Izzy and Eomer to be a bit more vocal because I want to put them on the innocent list as I'm leaning that way, but I want a bit more information first.

[The Saucepan Man]

At the moment, I am toying with voting for one of yesterDay’s Nog voters. But I don’t want to focus too much on one aspect of the game, so my current thoughts on everyone are as follows.

Aganzir: I think that there is some merit in the theory that she colluded with Noggie to get him lynched and thus acquire a mask of innocence. However, because her vote came before Nog’s spurious case against Rikae and because her explanation for her vote seems credible, I am less inclined to think her guilty than some of the others who voted for Nog. Other than that, she seems to be making sense.

Azaelia: No show.

Boromir88: I am inclined to trust him for now, for the reasons stated earlier. And I agree with Eomer that, being a talkative soul, a Wolfish Boro will get himself into trouble sooner or later.

Farael: Farael seems to be genuine so far, coming up with ideas and throwing out theories to test the water. I would like to hear more from him toDay but, other than that, no major concerns.

Isabellkya: I haven’t got much of a read on her yet. She hasn’t really said or done anything controversial, which worries me slightly, and is liable to be overlooked, if we’re not careful. But I have no real reason to suspect her as yet.

Kath: I am slightly worried about Kath. Her case against Nerwen looks to have been built on weak foundations, yet she persists with it. I have a vague suspicion that the Wolves may have picked Nerwen as a lynch candidate toDay, using the fact that Nog failed to vote for her to save himself, and Kath has added that as one of her reasons for suspecting Nerwen.

Legate: If there was a late Wolfish vote for Nogrod, it may well be here. Legate’s reaction to the Nog-Rikae thing could well have been contrived to make him look good. Also, he too raised doubts about Nerwen on the basis of Nog not retracting to vote for her. I would like to hear more of an explanation from him as to why he switched his vote to Nog.

Macalaure: I am still unsure about this Nog-Mac theory, but I have said more than enough about it already. Suffice to say that I think it a possibility and so could see myself voting for Mac toDay.

Mormegil: I could go either way on morm. I suspected him yesterDay for his strange (to me) accusations of Farael and Rikae. But, it was Day 1 and he seems to have come up with some more solid ideas toDay.

Nerwen: I can see what others mean when they say that she is coming across as jumpy and nervy, and I am not sure what to make of her spat with Kath. However, I still think it unlikely that a Wolfish Nerwen would have slain Shasta. Of the two, Kath concerns me more.

Rikae: Other than Nog’s vote for her, I have no reason to suspect her. However, as I said earlier, I would expect a Wolfish Rikae to act normally, especially when under no pressure. She suspects Mac, which I find interesting. Nog put forward the theory yesterDay that she and Mac are Wolves together and, while he undoubtedly did so with Wolfish intent, I wouldn’t put it past him to tell a truth so as to conceal it, particularly if he was already planning with his fellows to contrive his own demise.

The Might: I have no idea at all about the Might. I think that he is on the wrong track with Eomer but, whether Wolfishly so, I cannot tell.

Eomer: As with Boro, I am inclined to trust him now for reasons stated earlier. It also helps that his thoughts on everyone are quite similar to my own.

Valier: Valier has given very little away about her suspicions, other than to involve herself in the Kath-Nerwen spat, on the side of Kath. As explained earlier, she does not seems as confident in her hunches as normal, which could indicate Wolifshness. Of the non-Nog voters, she is probably my main suspect at present.

[The Saucepan Man]

Basically my suspicion of her rests on the idea that she was being completely over the top. I like that she is defending herself because I think it possible that the two of us are seeing things from completely different points of view and that's causing the problem. Well that certainly 'pinged' my radar and Kath has just promoted herself to a very respectable position on my suspect list.

Two reasons. First, Nerwen's reaction to the Seer-Cursed thing was early on in the game, when there was still some residual banter about. Her 'Come back!' was in reaction to Nog saying he was going off to chop wood or something. It doesn't seem 'completely over the top' at all to me. And secondly, Kath has given herself some 'wiggle room' to draw back from her suspicion of Nerwen here, saying that it might be because they are looking at things differently. She did the exact same thing yesterDay with Boro, as I recall. It seems to me to be quite a Wolfish thing to do - to advance a case and see what comes of it, while giving oneself room to withdraw from it if it doesn't take off.

Top suspects now:

Mac
Valier
Kath
Legate
Aganzir

... in pretty much that order, although it's pretty close between them all at the moment.

[Rikae]

Well, I'll have to vote now. I really would like to get to the bottom of the Valier situation - perhaps her role will shed some light on Kath and Nerwen. I particularly think the way Valier and Kath deal with each other is fishy. Macalaure, if he's innocent, deserves a chance to explain himself, but I still think he should be watched very closely from now on. And so:

++Valier

[The Saucepan Man]

I decided to take a claser look at The Might, since I haven’t got much of a read on him as yet. Day 1, his only substantive points, other than a few comments about the phanto-mod’s possible ‘twists’, involve going against Shasta and being somewhat defensive of Nerwen. If Shasta was targeted as a possible Day 1 scapegoat, then this might be indicative of Wolfishness. Also, he didn’t vote yesterDay, which has been explained, but seems a little convenient, given the interesting way that the votes went.

One thing that jumped out at me, though, is this:

If I'm right about Shasta, then Kath seems suspicious as well, while Legate will probably be innocent.You weren’t right about Shasta, but I don’t get your reasoning at all here. Would you mind explaining, please?

As for toDay, his vote for Eomer looks to be based on rather weak reasoning, and is likely to be somewhat of a ‘throwaway’ vote, given that Eomer (surprisingly, for him :D) has not come under much suspicion thus far.

I also took a quick look at Valier, to see if my concern about her is warranted, and noticed this:

Well since now my time is even more limited I will try and explain myself as best I can. I know my reasons may not always be that good, I can only try. I like to read and observe how people interact with each other and their reactions to different situations. So saying that, my list of suspects is made up of people who I just don't quite get. Something seems furry about them. For now I think that in some way these 6 stand out to me in some way that don't feel good.
My list goes from most suspicious to least.

Nerwen
Shasta
Mormegil
Macalaure
Isabellkya
KathI understand that your time was limited, as was mine yesterDay, but a little explanation here wouldn’t have gone amiss. Fair enough, you work by hunches, but it would help if you gave a little explanation as to what you find ‘furry’ about your suspects. The same goes for the ‘circumstances’ vote for Aganzir which, although retracted, appears to have been based on very little indeed. It seems to me that those who are suggesting that you are relying on your reputation to avoid giving explanations may have a point.

I am going to have to vote now, as I may not have a chance to get back before the deadline. Currently, it’s a toss up for me between Mac and Valier. Valier has 3 votes and Mac none. So I’ll go for the one which has more chance of counting.

++Valier

Adios amigos!

[Macalaure]

Not much has been said since I've been here last. And even less has been to my liking.

At this point, my vote is likely to go to Macalaure, whose suspicions toward Aganzir simply have too little to back them up (why Aganzir? He seems to be just trying to convince us it's possible for her to be a wolf, without telling us why it's likely)*sigh*
Do you want me to state the whole thing again with more detail? It seems futile right now, since Aganzir will hardly be lynched today. I'm not going to.

Macalaure: I am still unsure about this Nog-Mac theory, but I have said more than enough about it already. Suffice to say that I think it a possibility and so could see myself voting for Mac toDay.You know, Sauce, until now you were the one I considered to look most innocent. And now you put me on the top of your suspect list (even though you voted Valier) based on that - a possibility? You can't be serious...

It's funny that all the people who keep on suspecting me don't dare to put their money where their mouths are. :rolleyes:


I had a closer look at Kath and found myself disagreeing with almost everything she said. Still, what she said seemed genuine and more innocent than suspicious. I always have a hard time figuring out Kath. Maybe we just have a different approach, since she seems to have a similar problem with me.

Right now it's:

Valier 4 (Legate, Nerwen, Rikae, SPM)
morm 1 (Boro)
Nerwen 1 (Valier)
Eomer 1 (Miggy)

It seems like the Nerwen bandwaggon is not taking off. Good. But I'm not too comfortable with a Valier-waggon as well. :( Since Aganzir will unlikely be lynched, I think I will vote my second-best suspect, mormegil. Among those who already have votes, he's clearly my favourite. Yes, I'll be there until the deadline to retract if something happens to change my mind, but I feel the need to have a competing bandwaggon right now, before the Valier-waggon gets out of hands, and I want it to be one that I like, so I won't end up choosing between two evils near the deadline.

++mormegil

[mormegil]

I hope to have enough time on lunch to quickly review Nerwen...so my format will be talking about points as I read them in her posts.

In post 84 she questions my early suspicions of Farael. I gave, at the time, the best explination I had which was admittedly very weak but I wanted to get things moving a bit and Farael seemed overly loud to me. If I remember correctly Nerwen has questioned others regarding their suspicions.

Post 90 she reminds us of the ability wolves have to PM each other. I think it could easily be a wolf reminding us of a rule to help her look good. She also points out that people were jumping aboard with Mac and me on our suspicions of Nogrod and Farael. At this point nobody was jumping on board and no bandwagon had formed. It is this behavior that makes me think she is jumpy. This could also be and early attempt to defend Nogrod and include Farael (who I think innocent) to round it off.

Post 93 she seems to get defensive quick and thought I was jumpy for explaining, as she requested, my suspicion over Farael. I basically said that I need to have some suspicions be it weak or strong and the best I had was weak. She seemed a bit over the top to me and I remember just calmly explaining this, so this seems odd.

Post 95 jumps out to me, in talking about the wolves being able to PM she stated:

Of course they might also decide they can afford to start accusing each other, even this early in the game.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of this. She could be ahead of the curve on this and pointing out what could be happening or she simply could be a wolf and they had planned this strategy.

Post 103 she throws suspicion on Shasta over Shasta thanking her for pointing out that wolves can PM. She thought that Shasta might be pulling a double bluff but concluded that it is not overly likely. It seems that she is setting it up here to show that by knowing and pointing it out to others she is no longer suspicious.

Post 118 is a post which she moves around a lot and there is not a common thread. She writes off her 'cursed seer' thing as early day 1 silliness which is understandable. She talks a bit about Nogrod, Boro and Kath but no conclusions.


AHH I just looked she has a total of 35 posts! I only covered page 3 up to this point..I didn't even look on page 2. I doubt I'll get through most of her posts.

Post 136 she talks a bit about a few players and is sure not to commit to much of anything but this is interesting from the post

At the moment I'm wavering between Morm and Shasta. I could be persuaded to vote Boro– or maybe even Kath (or Mac... or Nogrod...). We'll see

It's almost as if she is inviting somebody to sway her so that she doesn't take responsibility for her choice. She seems very non-commital in her thoughts and that always reeks of wolfish fur to me.

She ends up voting for Shasta who is innocent not that that alone means she guilty but it is something to be remembered.

Post 196 she explains the Shasta kill in a fairly satisfactory way. She talks briefly about the Nogrod wolf-on-wolf vote and says that it must have been a communication breakdown. No I think it was likely that you are another wolf and that if both you and Nogrod were saved at Shasta's expense there would have been two wolves revealed and not one. It would have been far too obvious.

This is all I have time for but I have a decent recollection of her other posts in Day 2 and those were the ones that really got me considering her in the first place so that coupled with what I have seen of her in the earlier posts leads me to believe that she is a wolf.

++Nerwen

[mormegil]

You know, Sauce, until now you were the one I considered to look most innocent. And now you put me on the top of your suspect list (even though you voted Valier) based on that - a possibility? You can't be serious...

Mac, you seem to suspect anybody who suspects you...it's not healthy, trust me. Sadly, I have a habit of doing that and more often than not I am wrong about it. It's a problem I'm working on...I think I'm on step 8 of a 12 step program.:D So while I understand the knee-jerk reaction it doesn't help allay my fears of you.

[Macalaure]

Mac, you seem to suspect anybody who suspects you...it's not healthy, trust me. Sadly, I have a habit of doing that and more often than not I am wrong about it. It's a problem I'm working on...I think I'm on step 8 of a 12 step program.:D So while I understand the knee-jerk reaction it doesn't help allay my fears of you.

:D

You know, usually I don't automatically suspect anyone who suspects me. In fact, I frequently find myself thinking people who suspect me innocent. But this time I simply fail to see why I'm being suspected. I've heard a lot of "it's possible that he's a wolf" but very little that goes beyond that. Rikae's "his case against Aganzir is too weak" is probably the best one of them. I also can't shake off the feeling that at least some of the suspicions against me are wolf-made, but I yet cannot decide which.

[Aganzir]

Innocent:
Boro
Eomer
Farael
Kath
morm
Rikae

Guilty:
Mac. Reasons stated in 80% of my posts.
Legate. I can't really put my finger on it, but there's something wrong. He doesn't resemble any of those innocent-Legates (ordo, gifted) I've seen, but despite being slightly suspicious, doesn't resemble a wolf-Legate either. If there was a cobbler, I think he'd fit the role perfectly. He just seems to be a complete, deliberate opposite to the normal Legate.

Do you want me to state the whole thing again with more detail? It seems futile right now, since Aganzir will hardly be lynched today. I'm not going to.
Well, at least I'd be interested to see it.
Though I can understand it feels a bit futile to spend much time and energy on a person you know is innocent. I will hardly be lynched today, true, but what if you will be? For an innocent, it should never be too early to tell clearly why he thinks someone is a wolf.
You had a better case against me when we were fellow wolves in the last game. :p

++ Macalaure

I'll take my dog for a walk & return then.

[Farael]

Sorry folks, I'm feeling a little under the weather (Trust an University student to get sick right when he has time off to enjoy)

There's been a lot of talk since the last time I checked the thread, and I don't have the energy to do a comprehensive post with quotes and theories... believe it or not, and even if they sound far-fetched, they all take some effort.

So I'll write my thoughts on all the players as I may, paraphrasing and without quotes to back them up... I'll do my best to be clear as to what I refer to, but I don't think I can go quote-hunting right now

Looking Innocent
SPM: Trusting him dangerous, but I always tell myself that each village is a different world and that (while caution based on past experience is necessary) you can't suspect someone solely on the fact that they (pardon my french) screwed you over before. He is reasonable, calm and collected... I can't suspect him.

Boromir: He has a swagger about him and that may rub people the wrong way, but he has answered every concern raised against him reasonably. While "being defensive" is wolfish, he's not defensive, he's just genuine on what he says. Or at least, he seems genuine.

Mac: Sorry folks, but on Day 2 you have to put your chips somewhere and he is just not a good bet. True, it could be a smart plan by the wolves (And if it is, may Mod help us all... ) but right now I think it's not the time to go looking for far-fetched theories. Let's cover our bases first, if that does not work, we can take a look at Mac.

Looking alright

Legate: Perhaps he has not said enough for me to suspect him, but so far so good for Legate

Morm: He seems jumpy, but he did the same thing last village we played in when he was the Ranger. i am torn, as it may either mean that he has "a role" again (which could be anything from gifted to wolf) or that being jumpy is just Morm's style. The same I said for SaucepanMan applies for him... I'm not willing to let him off the hook because last time he acted like this he was a gifted, but for now I'm willing to give him a pass.

Aganzir I don't quite see how his vote for Nogrod makes him look bad...

Feeling unsettled about
Rikae this is a case of a player I never trust. She seems a little flippy-floppy on Mac and this may be because I understand they have a RL friendship, but it just doesn't look good to me... also, her vote for Valier looks awful safe yet...

Valier gotta say I have a soft spot for Valier. She joined the 'downs about the same time I did and we used to talk a fair bit... but that's not clouding my judgement enough for me to notice that she has almost no reasoning behind her suspicions. Now, I'm known for latching on to people and suspecting them to the bitter death (of either of us :p) based on a hunch... but when I did that, I tried to make some sort of a case. Valier is just saying "I have hunches, trust me"... and she's been doing it for a couple games at least. She just can't be the Seer in all games!!!

Nerwen: She seems lost. Could be a misguided ordo, or a wolf who knows that looking clueless is a good way to avoid suspicion for a while. I can't figure her out

Might: Is anyone else finding him odd(er)? he posts little, and he said he missed the deadline last Day. I'm willing to trust him on that, but does that really make him look better? his missing of the deadline may have been what caused Nogwolf's plan to go awry.

Izzy: Can't get a feel for her.

Eomer: The Perma-distrusted, I suspected him earlier but now he's not looking as bad. Still, I'm not willing to give him a pass.

Zali: Can't say anything.

Edit: X-ed with Aganzir
Edit 2: Fixed poor grammar

[Isabellkya]

Ah, you're right– but look at the times on those posts near the deadline. Votes were coming thick and fast and crossing each other, so he probably thought it was up to him.

Anyway, Nogrod had just started acting in an extremely wolfish manner. If I'd been there I think I'd have changed my vote to him too, to make sure. It all seems quite reasonable to me.

If you look back then you'll see I cross-posted. So in fact, technically I was the one who put Nogrod in the lead. It was not extra vote, it was THE vote (looking from my point of view).


Ahh, I hadn't noticed the posting times.

I can't seem to get Nerwen out of my head. Just when she is looking more innocent than wolfy, she goes and says something which tips the scales on the wolfy side. So I will try to flush the thoughts out, so I can examine others.

There seems to be an innocentish style of writing or flow to her posts; yet some of the words in them.. are odd; they just don't quite fit.

Post #221; the timing of her 'Kath is wolfy because I was attacked' is unwarranted.. it almost has the feel like she is grasping at straws.. trying to make a case for someone.

Post #235. She votes for Valier; but up until the vote she didn't seem to be on the track of voting for her. She had expressed her exasperation at Valier's non/mis reading of her Kath post. Yet when she actually votes for Valier; she seems to have done it with a reason from SPM's previous post.

As we all know, she is a ‘hunch’ player, but my recollection is that she is normally quite confident in her hunches. Here, however, she seems far less sure about them. It doesn’t quite ring true to me, so I’ll be keeping my eye on her.

While there are a number of people I suspect, I think Valier is the most prominent. I know people say she has "hunches", but this time, at least, I think she's using her reputation.

Regarding Valier having hunches I have no idea; I don't know how much this has been discussed in previous games or where ever it could be discussed. It just seems fishy. In this game, I think I've only seen one person mention hunches in regards to Valier; yet it is a singular person.. not 'people'. I may be reading more into this than I should.. but I'm looking at everything in regards to this game, not previous games which I didn't play in.

Over all; there is a lot of agreeing with others and expanding on ideas/suspicions which others have had. As well as being a bit over defensive. If you have a thought, then say it when you have the thought. Otherwise it is looking to me as if you're trying to take the lead off of multiple people.. in the hopes of it not looking suspicious when you take the lead/hints from specific wolfy mates.


Okay, it is noon here now and two hours before the deadline. Off to eat lunch, then I shall return and continue looking over others. Right now I'm deciding between Aganzir, Legate, and Nerwen for a vote.


X'd with Mac, Aganzir & Farael.