Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLIX - At the Source of Darkness

[Mithalwen]

Like Form?

Yep could go for Mr Grouchy but it won't help TP ... and the idea of slogging into town on a bank holiday monday if there is no Phantom to flirt with is just too depressing :(

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Yep could go for Mr Grouchy but it won't help TP ... and the idea of slogging into town on a bank holiday monday if there is no Phantom to flirt with is just too depressing :(

Considering phantom has already expressed interest in voting Form, I'm sure you and he can come to some sort of... agreement.

[Mithalwen]

0r even Sunday

[Brinniel]

Before everyone goes in and votes Shasta, can I just say the way he's been popping out of nowhere to vote reminds me of an innocent Elf-Warrior. And these one-liners he's been making don't sound wolfish to me...cobblerish maybe, but I don't think he's a wolf.

[Mithalwen]

Ah but that would only levely up .. may have to be someone who has a vote already :D

[the phantom]

Boy, people seem to be down on Gwath this game. Are they bitter about his Middle-Earth Soccer Tournament victory? :D

I don't think he's a WW though. Possible Cobbler.

Too bad it's not Form with two votes instead of Gwath. Not that I wouldn't vote for Gwath to save my skin.

[Mithalwen]

Well Iknow it would be unwise to "misunderestimate" Shasta. After last time...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boy, people seem to be down on Gwath this game. Are they bitter about his Middle-Earth Soccer Tournament victory? :D

I don't think he's a WW though. Possible Cobbler.

Too bad it's not Form with two votes instead of Gwath. Not that I wouldn't vote for Gwath to save my skin.

As you've made clear countless times. :) Almost as if in prior defense...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well Iknow it would be unwise to "misunderestimate" Shasta. After last time...

Who, me? :Merisu:

[Brinniel]

Urgh, I also have to mention I meant to return much much earlier...silly me...:rolleyes:

I'm still a bit clueless on who to vote for, so let me think...

[the phantom]

Where is everyone, by the way? There are still many votes left to be cast.

[Nerwen]

Hello. Just been reading the thread.

We'd better make up our minds quickly.

[Mithalwen]

I'm sure you and he can come to some sort of... agreement.

Oh we did that years ago, still works for me :p

[Thinlómien]

I haven't got the time to comment on everything I'd like to (I'll do that toMorrow if I'm still alive) and me, Greenie and Nog we're all sharing a computer and none of us has voted, so...

I could vote Shasta, Form or Nog, or even maybe Fea. (She's been acting weirdly.) I've started having second thoughts about Durelin. She might not be a cobbler after all. And of course I could vote Nerwen just for that dreadful suggestion... :mad: ;)

I can't follow Nilp's logic.

The Nogrod-phantom row looks interesting... makes me think they're not both innocent. And even though I suspect Nog a bit more than tp, this row actually makes me a little hesitant of lynching him. I'd rather see how this develops.

She was really quite overly cross I think at an early pointJust to sort this out, I really wasn't. Just annoyed. ;)

Far more odd to my mind is Lommy saying I am not being silly when she was earlier sounding off about how stupid lynchin Kit was.... which for good or ill was my idea....But while I think lynching her was stupid, what I meant by you not being silly is that you're not throwing total joke ideas or loads of silly suggestions and suspicions around.

I'll be quickly back to vote but that's all you can expect of me toDay... gotta let Greenie and Noggie write...


edit: mass-xed

[Mithalwen]

Shasta and Phantom promises to have play value. Lets keep them! Please?

[the phantom]

Okay- here's an idea. Does anyone think it was odd that Gwath didn't get lynched yesterday? I said this at the end of voting before I cast my vote...
I was expecting something weird at the end, but it didn't happen.

Oh well. It's over now.
The weird thing I was expecting to happen was for a couple of people to run in and vote to lynch Gwath (Cobblers or WWs trying to get two kills in one day).

The fact that it didn't happen- does that mean that the WWs thought he was perhaps a Cobbler and the Cobblers thought he was a WW?

Just mulling this over.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I could vote Shasta, Form or Nog, or even maybe Fea.

Aww. There I was siding with you against phantom, too. Where's the love? :(

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As far as the Cobblers go, forget them. They have three shots at dying every cycle, and I can't imagine they'll dodge the bullet for long. They should be down to a manageable number shortly.

By the way, Nog, I'm not proposing ignoring Cobblers completely.

Discuss. :Merisu:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ignore me at your own peril, Lommy and Eonwe, for I speak truth, and can be very entertaining.

Proof that phantom is banking on his entertainment value in order not to be lynched! :eek:

Edit: When accusing, one must always put the quote in the actual post. Duh.

[Mithalwen]

OK time is running out people

[the phantom]

It's a little late to discuss that Shasta!

[A Little Green]

Ah thanks Lommy you really were quick. :rolleyes:

I don't have much time (I'll promise to be very much more active toMorrow), but I think I'll go for

++ Gwath

because he still seems to tiptoe around a trifle too much and behaves fishy and under-the-reindeer at the same, and since I don't want to make a throwaway-vote, I might as well go for him.


EDIT: x-ed with a lot

[the phantom]

Here's the deal.

Gwath might be an Ordo. He might be a baddie.

I don't think he's a gifted.

He's tied with me for the lead.

That's definitely where I'm leaning.

[Mithalwen]

Unless I get a good reason not too I think I will go for Lommy - not usual coherent self.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's a little late to discuss that Shasta!

What are you talking about? It's never too late! :p

[the phantom]

I promise that if we're both around tomorrow I'll chat with you about those Cobbler comments, Shasta.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

behaves fishy and under-the-reindeer

Heehee. Under the reindeer. :D

[Mithalwen]

++Thinlomien

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I promise that if we're both around tomorrow I'll chat with you about those Cobbler comments, Shasta.

*cues Phantom-killing-Shasta in the night* :(
I'm really not sure why I'm so hyper all of a sudden.

[the phantom]

Okay, I'm seriously running out of time here.

+ + Gwath

Sorry lad. It was either you or me. :(

[Brinniel]

++Durelin

She was on my list of possible wolves, and I still think she could be. Something about her doesn't feel right...a bit sneaky. And she's always someone I'm wary of because she can be quite the sneaky wolf. I would further elaborate if I had time...

EDIT: X-ed since post 270

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Mmm, what I could do with a role involving posting requirements... :D

[Nerwen]

++Lommy.

Yes, she's a bit strange, somehow... but then so are you, Mith.

Hurry up everyone. 2 or 3 minutes left.

EDIT: X'd since Shasta at 275.

[Mithalwen]

Timecheck:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Lommy.

Yes, she's a bit strange, somehow... but then so are you, Mith.

Hurry up everyone. 2 or 3 minutes left.

Another crackup moment; Nerwen calling people strange. :p

[the phantom]

Hopefully Gwath isn't gifted. Now we will see what happens in the Night and see if the brilliant ploy that I thought I spotted will work.

Nerwen spotted it too, and Mith as well I believe- but I think both of them thought it was something slightly different. We'll see who's correct.

Fea- drat you for not showing up and chatting!

[Mithalwen]

++Lommy.

Yes, she's a bit strange, somehow... but then so are you, Mith.

Hurry up everyone. 2 or 3 minutes left.

Oh that is my natural state... I would be insulted to be called normal!

[Nogrod]

Darn it... I'm in too late.

Oh my.

As it seems to be Gwath I'll make a point.

++ Durelin

[Macalaure]

Long and tiresome were the daily marches of our adventurers and Morgoth's maze seemed endless. Maybe if they had been able to focus solely on walking, they would be able to make it out more quickly, but every day they had to discuss the danger they were facing, and especially who among them were culpable for this danger. While their lungs were more than busy breathing, having to talk all day proved to be too much of a strain for some.

We dwarves are natural sprinters.... were the last words heard from Groin Redbeard before he laid himself down on the path and died quietly, never to return to his mines. The discussions were only marginally influenced by this event.

Shasta was the first to put his foot down: I most vehemently do not like phantom. He received a mixed response and much arguing ensued. Gwathagor, who already was under much scrutiny the last day, slowly and silently gwathered more and more antagonists. In the end, it was decided that he was evil and should die.

I pray to you, do not kill me! he pleaded.

Why? We have decided you are evil. Therefore you are. Nilpaurion made clear.

No, no, you're making a terrible mistake. Trust me. I promise I'll come back and tell you what it is later...

But no more was he able to say. With a swift move Nilp grabbed Gwathagor's tongue and, with a strength unheard of for such an old man, ribbed it out. Then Eönwë appeared and tried to stab Gwath with his sword. Unfortunately, since his sword was faked - and pointless - this proved a lot more difficult than he expected. Being dissatisfied with Eönwë's attempt, Lily took her own dagger and stabbed at Gwath, but her lack of sight hindered her severely. At last the phantom stood in front of the tongue-less and beaten Gwathagor, and with a rare antique gladius, and the words Sorry lad. Either you or me. he hewed at Gwathagor with repeated and heavy strokes, leaving nothing but a pile of bloody flesh and bones.

Gwathagor was dead.

Doesn't really look like Gwath was a wolf. Nogrod remarked.

Disappointed the group moved on, looking for a place to stay for the night. Just as they were turning away, they heard words coming from what was once Gwathagor

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

Gwathagor was the seer.

*~*

Dead:
Macalaure and Rikae (mods) - killed by wolves and turned into faulty quenya in Night One
Kitanna (ordo) - lynched by a pointless mob on Day One
Lalaith (ordo) - severed from her chalk, and her head, in Night Two
Groin Redbeard (ordo) - died from exhaustion on Day Two
Gwathagor - (seer) turned into a talking corpse on Day Two

Alive:
Feanor of the Peredhil - visionary whose visions lean toward the abstract
Shastanis Althreduin - loner roane
Formendacil - snowbird
Eönwë - seller of pointless fakes
Nerwen - treasure-seeker
Kath - unemployed bum
Nilpaurion Felagund - aged tale-seeker
Durelin - eccentric, misanthropic archaeologist
Brinniel - junk collector
Nogrod - pointless philosopher
A Little Green - blind astronomer who sells stars at the stock exchange
the phantom - obtainer of rare antiquities
Thinlómien - marine zoologist
Mithalwen - factotum

Night Three has begun. Wolves: plot and kill. Assassin: assassinate. Others: shhh.

[Macalaure]

The expedition awoke from a peaceful night. Despite having lost their precious seer, it seemed to them like no evil thing had happened that night. When they prepared themselves to leave for today's march, they noticed something that made them think that even a miracle had happened. In a corner of the room they were sleeping in, they found many different items, a bow and arrows, cups, provisions, tooth picks, and other helpful things.

Praise the Valar for these useful gifts! the adventurers cried... until they had a closer look at what these diverse gifts were made of, after which they turned their faces away in disgust. They looked around, and only now they realized that Mithalwen, their factotum, was missing. What had happened during the night?

*~*

At the end of the last day, after many hard hours of marching - and an ill-advised lynching - our adventurers fell asleep quickly once they set up their camp. Two, however, only faked it, and they got up as soon as they deemed themselves safe. Quietly they made their way over their sleeping former comrades until they found the person whose life they desired to end this night. They could have killed their victim silently without waking her, but that was even below their lowly honour.

Mithalwen, oh Mithalwen dear. their whispered into their victim's ear, and Mithalwen woke up - only to look into the bloodthirsty eyes of two creatures of Morgoth.

Yet there was no fear in her heart, but something quite unexpected...

Oh my God! You are wolves, right? You are soo cool, you know. I never thought I'd ever get to see one of you! May I touch your fur?

The wolves backed away from this sudden onslaught of adoration. Shhh, be silent, you'll wake everyone!

Mith, however, was in no mental condition to restrain herself: But you are werewolves! You are going to kill all these nasty Valar-worshipping idiots! You rock! Then she hesitated. You know, I wanted to ask you something, but I'm not sure whether I should, but... may I ask you for an autograph?

The wolves exchanged looks. Well, I guess that's not a problem, what would you like us to write?

For Mithalwen, our biggestest fan!

The wolves smiled, obliged, and handed Mith her autograph.

She was confused. But this reads: Dear Mithalwen, you are going to be ki...

*~*

Dead:
Macalaure and Rikae (mods) - killed by wolves and turned into faulty quenya in Night One
Kitanna (ordo) - lynched by a pointless mob on Day One
Lalaith (ordo) - severed from her chalk, and her head, in Night Two
Groin Redbeard (ordo) - died from exhaustion on Day Two
Gwathagor - (seer) turned into a talking corpse on Day Two
Mithalwen - (cobbler) made into a diverse set of items in Night Three

Alive:
Feanor of the Peredhil - visionary whose visions lean toward the abstract
Shastanis Althreduin - loner roane
Formendacil - snowbird
Eönwë - seller of pointless fakes
Nerwen - treasure-seeker
Kath - unemployed bum
Nilpaurion Felagund - aged tale-seeker
Durelin - eccentric, misanthropic archaeologist
Brinniel - junk collector
Nogrod - pointless philosopher
A Little Green - blind astronomer who sells stars at the stock exchange
the phantom - obtainer of rare antiquities
Thinlómien - marine zoologist

Day Three has begun. Have fun with it!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's funny, I actually expected Mith to die after reading her last post in the Admin thread. Anyway, so Mith was a cobbler. That tells us... what, exactly?

*swims off to peruse her posts*

And as for my end-of-day hyperness yesterday, I blame the seawater. :)

[the phantom]

Mith = Cobbler

She was making me wonder about that yesterday, when she was being so helpful.

Okay, I shall return to something I said yesterday-
It's not really a trap. Well, it kind of is, but not one of my invention. It's something that someone else did that I think might possibly be a brilliant ploy and I'm trying not to say anything to make it misfire, because I honestly believe it might work. But we won't know till tomorrow if it worked completely.
Now we will see what happens in the Night and see if the brilliant ploy that I thought I spotted will work.

Nerwen spotted it too, and Mith as well I believe- but I think both of them thought it was something slightly different. We'll see who's correct.
Well, it turns out I was part wrong about what I thought I had spotted. But I was part right as well. I still believe Nerwen and Mith saw it as well and reacted to it. Now that we know that she was indeed a Cobbler, Mith's reaction makes perfect sense. Nerwen's reaction makes me think that she is innocent.

Any guesses as to what was going on? Fea perhaps? ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Any guesses as to what was going on? Fea perhaps?

Darling, this question reeks of fascinatingly unsettling adjectives.

Anyway:

Fea- I'll address this to you seeing as I'm rather confident you've caught it and you give me the best chance at finding the same wavelength without being too specific. I just need to bounce something off of you.

I understand that it can be a rather good idea to ruin one's credibility with certain members of the village for the sake of protection, but isn't there a huge risk of backfiring? Or do you think that it is simply worth the risk to protect someone who should not die and flush out someone who should. Argh... it's hard to say this without actually saying it. Do you understand where I'm coming from at all?

My answer, as soon as I read this, was, "Yes. I approve."

Now? And after yesterday's lynch?

I still approve.

My goal for the day is to spearhead campaigns (with no evidence provided by myself, because I'm too lazy to look for it and I'm hungry) against Lommy, Nogrod, and Shasta. Form is on my list of maybes. The phantom is still safe from my wrath, though he'll want to dance prettily to keep that way. I'm not worried about Greenie or Brin. I want to see more from Kath. The others? They've done nothing to garner my attention.

Phantom: whilst I still approve... dance pretty.

[Brinniel]

I expected Mith to be the one to die last Night, simply because it seemed everyone pushed her aside, regarding her as innocent. What I did not expect was her to turn out to be a cobbler; I really thought she was an ordo....obviously the wolves did not expect it either. Though when I think back on it, I suppose Mith's role isn't too big of a surprise..

The big surprise for me was Gwath...the seer? Did anyone see that coming? I certainly didn't. If he wasn't a cobbler as I suspected, I didn't think he'd be anymore than an ordo. Poor Gwath didn't really even get the chance to defend himself. I hate when that happens... :(

Anyway, looking back at Gwath's posts I found that the best possible clues came from here:

Feanor of the Peredhil - Potential wolf
Shastanis Althreduin - Probably innocent
Formendacil - Potential cobbler
Eönwë – Probably innocent, possibly a cobbler
Nerwen -
Kath -
Nilpaurion Felagund -
Durelin - Cobbler
Brinniel -
Nogrod - Probably innocent
A Little Green - Cobbler
the phantom - Potential wolf
Thinlómien - Probably innocent
Groin Redbeard - Innocent
Mithalwen - Innocent

Normally, I would read Lalaith's death as a sign that tp is not a wolf, as they both voted against each other yesterDay, and most wolves would like to avoid drawing attention to themselves in that way. However, tp thrives on attention and is supremely confident; therefore, he might try it. He could be a wolf, but I can't say for sure.

If tp is a wolf, Fea could be as well given the way in which she set herself firmly against tp right from the beginning of the Day.

Now, the uncertainty Gwath later shares with those he listed as 'potential wolf' makes me think he never dreamt of them.

Of all the players, he shows the most certainty with four (Durelin, Greenie, Mith, Groin)...my best guess is that he dreamt of two of them. At first I thought this might reveal a lot more info until I looked back at the rules and realised cobblers are dreamt of as innocent...then my whole theory went down the drain. :rolleyes: But if it helps, I kind of doubt Mith and Groin were dreamt of. When Mith came up with the lynch Kitanna suggestion, she didn't seem that wolfish to me...and I think Gwath would've thought the same. And Groin only made one post on Day 1...I really don't think he captured enough attention to be a seer pick. Which leaves Durelin and Greenie...two who in my mind would be much likelier seer picks and I think they are who Gwath dreamt of. And what would that mean? Durelin and Greenie could be either ordos or cobblers....considering what Gwath labeled them, he obviously thought the latter.

Of course in my analysis, I could easily be wrong....but for now I believe it's more likely Greenie and Durelin are not wolves, though I would have to agree with Gwath that at least one could be a cobbler. Though if it's towards the end of the game and they're still not assassinated/mauled, I could very well change my mind....as I don't see why an assassin or wolf wouldn't target them at some point. Funny that I voted for both of them, but in light of this, I think they'll be the first I'd eliminate as lynching candidates for toDay.

[the phantom]

You still approve, Fea?

That's wonderful. Problem is I have no idea what you're approving at this point. :D

You see, yesterday I was quite certain that you were the Seer and were running a brilliant double edged ploy. :rolleyes:

I was quite confident that you had dreamed of me and knew me to be innocent, or at the least a non-Wolf, but in order to appear quite unSeerish to the WWs and in order to draw Cobblers out you painted me "guilty as sin".

It seems to me that Mith-Cobbler might have bit on it with her dedication to preserving me, and perhaps Form as well with his crazy Cobblerish attack on me. And I think Nerwen caught it as well, but she seemed to be hesitant until she got something clearer from you. Which makes me think that Nerwen is innocent.

So anyway, that's what I was talking about when I said this to you-
I understand that it can be a rather good idea to ruin one's credibility with certain members of the village for the sake of protection, but isn't there a huge risk of backfiring?
I was saying that it was a great idea to point heavily at me to ruin your credibility with the WWs (make you look unSeerish), but that I was worried it would backfire, meaning that if you were killed during the Night the village would be sure to lynch me the next day.

But obviously I was completely off on part of that scenario, seeing as Gwath was the Seer. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

The big surprise for me was Gwath...the seer? Did anyone see that coming? I certainly didn't.
Me neither.

I did think more than once that he was not an Ordo, but I thought Cobbler was more likely, with only an outside chance of him being the Assassin. But I definitely wasn't thinking Seer. Probably because I thought I'd already located the Seer.

I'm not sure if I agree with you on his dreams though. I still need to go back and reread his posts, but based upon just that list that you quoted from him, I would peg Groin and Mith as his dreams. I mean- everyone else is "potential", "probable", or "probably". Or if they aren't that then they're "Cobbler", which the Seer cannot see. Only Groin and Mith have any sense of Seer certainty.

But as I said I'm not taking into account the rest of his posts. I shall go read them.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I was saying that it was a great idea to point heavily at me to ruin your credibility with the WWs (make you look unSeerish), but that I was worried it would backfire, meaning that if you were killed during the Night the village would be sure to lynch me the next day.

Ha! I was so close...

The way I took it was that you were intending to ruin your own credibility in order to divert attention from the person you thought was the seer (obviously not me, since I'm not the seer). The backfiring would be that bad guys caught on to who you were protecting and your ruse failed, leaving the seer dead and you - the innocent - vulnerable and without credibility. Ie: to be lynched the next day.

I certainly didn't think you took me as the seer! Ha. That's great. I have no magic powers, I just read people as they appear to me. You, my darling, have benefits to being kept alive. At least until I have to kill you in order for the village to win. In which case you're not beneficial, you're a liability.

Obviously once Gwath died (did ANYBODY think he was the seer? I certainly didn't...), my understanding of your scheme got a little shoddy. You couldn't be the seer, so you couldn't be ruining your own credibility (and thereby protecting yourself), and the actual seer seemed to have escaped your attention completely. I thought perhaps (which is why I still approved) that you might have a good idea of who was cobbler hunter or something. Basically, I was hoping that though the seer had kicked it, your noble intention to throw yourself to the wolves to protect somebody you thought was more important than you would still hold true.

Obviously I was wrong on that one... I mean, you don't think anybody is more important than you. ;)

So anyway...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I was quite confident that you had dreamed of me and knew me to be innocent, or at the least a non-Wolf, but in order to appear quite unSeerish to the WWs and in order to draw Cobblers out you painted me "guilty as sin".

Oh, about this: I'm a realist: I prefer painting what I see. I think you are a force to be reckoned with.

I also think you're not the village's biggest threat. Not to bruise your ego or anything, sweetheart, but you don't scare me.

[Thinlómien]

We killed our seer, but at least the wolves killed a cobbler. This is actually quite funny... if losing a seer can ever be funny, that is. But he looked so unseerish! I mean, I thought he was an ordo but I wouldn't have been surprised if he had been a wolf, but he definitely didn't look gifted at all to me, quite frankly, the idea of him being gifted never occured to me.

I think I would have voted him yesterDay. Now you're probably asking: "You think? Don't you know?" But honestly, when I logged in at the deadline minute, I hadn't decided whether I'd vote Gwath because in principle, he was a little suspicious and he'd be dead anyway, or whether I should just go on and vote Shasta anyway. (Speaking of him, I don't think I suspect him that much anymore. I don't know why.)

Looking at the list Brinn kindly provided, I'm inclined to agree with tp that Gwath probably dreamt of Mith and Groin. I think that simply "innocent" looks like a rather seerish comment. I don't understand Brinn's opinion that he would have hid his real dreams under cobbler-names - that's too vague, and besides, he must have realised that him naming two people just "innocent" is going to make people assume he dreamt of them. Seers take things like that into account.

If this assumption is correct, it's too bad, because then Gwath died without giving us any actual knowledge. Everybody he dreamt of is dead and so is he. So we have to go on without him... I'm not too worried yet, though, because we are eight against five at the moment, but if we don't catch a wolf soon, it will get worse.

Also, I don't know what to think of the fact that our cobbler hunter hasn't killed anyone yet... are the ones who look most cobblerish innocents then? Or has the assassin been unlucky or not-so-smart with his/her picks? What should we think of the fact that Form lives? I mean, I think everyone can agree that he looked very cobblerish yesterDay. Should we assume that our cobbler hunter is an individualist or had a strong hunch about someone else, or should we assume Form is not a cobbler? What is he then? A bold wolf or a weird innocent? I'm a bit baffled...

I hate it when tp and Fea are speaking some secret talk of theirs. Makes me feel stupid. Maybe we should lynch them? :p Seriously though, I wouldn't be too surprised if they were the wolves and publicly communicating with each other like that...

I find Brinn's post toDay weird. Is it again that I don't agree with her, I don't know, but she is again looking at things from some odd perspective that makes her look suspicious. Usually, when we're both innocent, we agree pretty much, and now we don't, so should I assume she's evil this time? I don't know...


edit: xed with Fea x2

[Eönwë]

The way I took it was that you were intending to ruin your own credibility in order to divert attention from the person you thought was the seer (obviously not me, since I'm not the seer). The backfiring would be that bad guys caught on to who you were protecting and your ruse failed, leaving the seer dead and you - the innocent - vulnerable and without credibility. Ie: to be lynched the next day.
Strangely enough, I read his post like that, too.

Anyway, Gwath=Seer? Wow!
He was definately good at diguising it. Too good.
Or maybe he wasn't diguising it enough, and you that the things a seer can say to be helpful can also sound like wolvish trickery.

Very interesting indeed.

[Eönwë]

Have you noticed the way the two people that died highly suspected tp?

So, wither he's the wolf or he's being framed. It would be an obvious thing to frame him, as he's such a high-profile, attntion-grabbing player. It would be easy to pin the blame on himm.
But if he was a WW, he could easily pin the blame on what I have just stated, placing us in an almost dead-end about this matter. (there is never actually a dead-end in WW, or at least not in the games that I have played or read, but then again, that's looking back on games, when you know everyone's roles and actions). But the phantom could pull it off, definately. If he's a wolf, it will definately take some time before he's lynched.

But who would frame tp? The first name that comes to my mind is Form. But he's meantt to be cobbler according to the majority consensus. But is he really? I wonder if the CA (Cobbler Assassin, not Canada or California) did choose him. We'll probably find out tonight, but then again, he might assuage our conviction of his cobblerism.
But of courseanyone could frame phantom. And it may even be be a double-frame, so the person we think may have framed tp is actually being framed himself.
Also, Nilp springs to mind. He seems even more obscure than usual. He's acting strange, like he's coooked up some evil plan. But I've only played one game with him. And if he acts the same way each time he's a wolf then I think he must be innocent.

So let's see what happens.

edit: no x-posting

[Eönwë]

Well, according to my sources (the Who's online box) there's three people who are appearing invisible. In all probability at least one si playing this game. So post! Don't act so silent, people!

edit: Woo! Triple post. That just shows how quiet things are here. I've taken to talking (and arguing) with myself, for lack of activity on this thread, though not in a Nilp-ish way.

edit2; Anyone? Yoo-hoo! Anyone there *Knocks on Barrow door, which happens to be cold dark, ancient and made of stone. -Hey, anyone want to buy a chip of stone from a barrow door?- Knocks again*

[Nogrod]

One more seer lynched in the beginning of the game... That's no credit for us.

I don't claim to be anything like Mr. Right here but c'mon, where did you guys get the idea Gwath should be lynched? Both on Day1 and Day2! I would really like to hear from you Gwath-voters why did you think him a baddie - and it would be interesting to go back and see the claimed reasons as it looks there was some easy bandwaggoning included.

I hate it when tp and Fea are speaking some secret talk of theirs. Makes me feel stupid. Maybe we should lynch them? Seriously though, I wouldn't be too surprised if they were the wolves and publicly communicating with each other like that...I did speculate on the possibilities with Fea and tp already yesterDay and I am not sure I wish to add to that anything like yet.

But let me add that toDay they look more like cobblers both of them trying to fill the thread with things that don't actually help us eg. speculating their mutual interpretations of what the other thought about this and that and all that other stuff. And with Eönwe already going along with that speculation it seems they are succeeding...


I do agree with tp that Gwath's dreams were Mith and Groin. That looks quite obvious looking at his list there with only the two marked clearly as innocents... all the others are speculative... also the cobblers, as he wouldn't have known that.

That's pretty bad as it means we have no known innocents by Gwath.

Looking at the bright side it seems our cobbler-assassin has two non-cobblers for us. Although we wouldn't know whether they are wolves or innocents... But let's hope s/he gets us a cobbler the next Night.

Okay. I'll check a few things and try to do something before going to sleep.


EDIT: X'd with Eönwe X 2

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

speculating their mutual interpretations of what the other thought about this and that and all that other stuff.

But don't you want to know what Phanty and I think about each others thoughts and innermost longings as they relate to killing you?

[Nogrod]

But don't you want to know what Phanty and I think about each others thoughts and innermost longings as they relate to killing you?If you have that interest shared I'd rather not. :)

But I do hope that after that the others will lynch you asap. But meanwhile we should go for the wolves and cobblers - unless it's you two which would explain a lot. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

unless it's you two which would explain a lot. ;)

Might be him. Sure as heck isn't me.

Now move your furniture!

[Nogrod]

Now move your furniture!Allright, allright... Sorry if I was on your way. It will be done, soonish... :rolleyes:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Allright, allright... Sorry if I was on your way. It will be done, soonish... :rolleyes:

Aww, I love you, hunny.

Even if I want to lynch you.

[Nogrod]

Mith-the-cobbler

On Day1 she says "Let's kill Nogrod", which is normal. Says it's normal that Dury suspects her. Suggests the Kitanna-lynch for risk management and loves being manipulated by tp. Says "at least one our wolves is keeping a low profile today" and votes Kitanna.

On Day2 she really starts to defend the phantom. This one quote is interesting: "Phantom darling, want to keep you around so will do what I have to do..". Says Lommy is odd, suspicious. Says: "it would be unwise to "misunderestimate" Shasta" but at the next post says "Shasta and Phantom promises to have play value. Lets keep them! Please?" Votes Lommy.


So not too much to go on but that she thought tp was up to no good and that she thought Lommy is an innocent. That Shasta-stuff is a bit odd but then again she was the cobbler... and to be sure she didn't know any more than we do (unless my initial interpretation on the cobblers knowing each other was right in the end - which I do hope is not the case).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

But who would frame tp?

*raises hand*

Only on principle, though, I assure you. :p

I also think it's folly to assume so quickly what Gwath's dreams must have certainly been. I mean, we can't be totally sure, can we? Same with phantom's assertion that he was dreamt. Hate to break it to you, but you're not as important as you think you are. :p

Edit: Oh, hello. X'd with Nogrod.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I also think it's folly to assume so quickly what Gwath's dreams must have certainly been. I mean, we can't be totally sure, can we?

I agree. I, in effect, think he was pretty useless, on the seer front. Not that I don't like him a whole lot, but really? Even if he did definitively dream of Groin and Mith, they're dead. Any other "well I think he's guilty!"s that Gwath might have come out with have exactly as much credibility as me saying, "I really want Shasta to die. Like really. Hardcore. A lot. Like, I'm not willing to stake my life on it or anything, but it would please me because I think he's guilty as sin. Same for Lommy. Maybe not as much for Nogrod, because he went along with my spastic furniture order. But definitely the other two."

EXACTLY that much credibility.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I agree. I, in effect, think he was pretty useless, on the seer front. Not that I don't like him a whole lot, but really? Even if he did definitively dream of Groin and Mith, they're dead. Any other "well I think he's guilty!"s that Gwath might have come out with have exactly as much credibility as me saying, "I really want Shasta to die. Like really. Hardcore. A lot. Like, I'm not willing to stake my life on it or anything, but it would please me because I think he's guilty as sin. Same for Lommy. Maybe not as much for Nogrod, because he went along with my spastic furniture order. But definitely the other two."

EXACTLY that much credibility.

Love you too, Fea, dear. :Merisu:

[Brinniel]

Looking at the list Brinn kindly provided, I'm inclined to agree with tp that Gwath probably dreamt of Mith and Groin. I think that simply "innocent" looks like a rather seerish comment. I don't understand Brinn's opinion that he would have hid his real dreams under cobbler-names - that's too vague, and besides, he must have realised that him naming two people just "innocent" is going to make people assume he dreamt of them. Seers take things like that into account.
But why would the seer quickly list off his dreams as innocent when he can't be sure if they're ordos or cobblers? By listing someone off as innocent it would give more of a message to trust that person rather than just not lynch them. While if he listed his dreams as cobblers, we'd know not to lynch them but at least not necessarily trust them.

Though the main reason I'm guessing Durelin and Greenie to be his dreams among the four is because they seem more likely seer picks. Both girls are quite sneaky as wolves, especially Durelin, and if I were the seer I'd pick them. I suppose there's a possibility Mith was dreamt of Night 1 but she did not look wolfish enough at all to be picked Night 2 in my opinion. And Groin...considering his low level of activity, I don't see why he'd be dreamt of over other players.

I also think it's folly to assume so quickly what Gwath's dreams must have certainly been.
I agree with you. What I wrote about Gwath's dreams is pure speculation. I could be wrong. So could everyone else. We just can't know for sure. But I wanted to point my thoughts out because it is a possibility.

[the phantom]

I mean, you don't think anybody is more important than you.
Ha ha! :D

No, no... I'm willing to admit that the Assassin is slightly more important.

But just barely.
Not to bruise your ego or anything, sweetheart, but you don't scare me.
*pouts*
I hate it when tp and Fea are speaking some secret talk of theirs. Makes me feel stupid.
Oh, you're not stupid. Just out of the loop. We can't all be popular. :p
Have you noticed the way the two people that died highly suspected tp?
What village are you participating in, buddy? Lalaith thought I might be a Cobbler, and Mith was totally in my camp. If they wanted to make me a believable WW they never would've touched a hair on Mith's head! Were I a WW you can guarantee I would've kept her around as long as possible in hopes that she would continue to help me out.

So anyway, no, I don't think it was an attempted frame up.

[the phantom]

But let me add that toDay they look more like cobblers both of them trying to fill the thread with things that don't actually help us eg. speculating their mutual interpretations of what the other thought about this and that and all that other stuff.
Sorry, but I felt it necessary to explain my comments from yesterday. Surely that is not out of bounds?
I also think it's folly to assume so quickly what Gwath's dreams must have certainly been. I mean, we can't be totally sure, can we? Same with phantom's assertion that he was dreamt.
First, I didn't say Gwath dreamed about me. I said he dreamed about Groin and Mith.

Second, why not assume? I mean- we have to start someplace. If we aren't going to try and interpret the dreams of a Seer we might as well never have one. Of course in this village our problem is that both the assumed dreams are dead.
But why would the seer quickly list off his dreams as innocent when he can't be sure if they're ordos or cobblers? By listing someone off as innocent it would give more of a message to trust that person rather than just not lynch them. While if he listed his dreams as cobblers, we'd know not to lynch them but at least not necessarily trust them.
Okay, I do understand where you are coming from, but do you honestly believe that Gwath would do that? He knew he was the Seer, even if we didn't. He realized that his words might be looked at.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I had to do this because I was suspecting Dury a lot and wished to see whether it was just that she kept on suspecting me with reasons I thought were sham or was there anything "real" behind my suspicions.

So here then is my

Durylysis (eg. comments and points with some quotes)


On Day1

So the cobblers can help lynch a wolf, and the wolves can always kill a cobbler. There's only two wolves and there's a seer.

This should be an interesting show! I only wish there were more risks involved for the cobbler assassin...or any risks at all for that matter!

Anyway, let's try not to lynch our cobbler assassin or seer today.I don't think a wolf would naturally make the middle sentence (about wishing more risks) but the last one is just a classic wolf-comment early in the game.

In #66 she has good points about false reveals and continues: I really am finding it hard to even toss out random suspicions atm. I'm always for lynching the phantom, though. I say we give Nogrod a little time.

Sudden thought: I bet Mith makes a great cobbler.Nicely right with Mith even if she had no way of knowing it (unless she's a cobbler as well and they know each other and she decided to be quite a bold one... eg. I don't think so)!

She protest the Kit-lynch saying it only gives us one more day to play and says that's silly. But she doesn't say why not take one more day or why is it silly. She suspects Gwath (seer) for "a good bit of back-and-forth-ing" and Lalaith (innocent) as her ""fishy" comment feels like an easy stir up of things". Also Lommy feels off to her. Then she speculates on wolf-tactics: the wolves will want to be a good bit more careful about killing off their cobblers in this game, with so many of them and only two wolves.

Protests somewhat strongly Gwath's vote for Kitanna being bad policy.

Votes Gwath because she doesn't like his attitude. Notes jokingly she's bandwaggoning (Greenie had voted Gwath just before her).


On Day2

Now Dury you have to help me out with this as I just can't get it.


There were five votes for Kitanna and it would be an interesting thing indeed if there were no cobblers or wolves in there. Not perhaps in the early voters as it is clear lynching Kit was against their own good (loosing a free "one-villager-down") but maybe later, when it was looking quite clear Kit would be lynched anyhow so they would have tried to take advantage of the obvious outcome (Nerwen, maybe already Nilp?).
But, as Nerwen pointed out, it's in the cobblers' interest to avoid getting one of their wolves lynched (and their fellow cobblers, though that's secondary in importance). And as a wolf, I might well have considered *going with the flow* on that one, myself, even though it goes against my WW 'philosophy' (lolz, I know). There has never been a cleaner appearing lynch and never could be. I'm really going to have to try to not focus on the people who neatly went along with the Kitanna lynch.

I found myself disagreeing with Nogrod on several things already, which makes me feel we are on different sides...in this case meaning he is of an evil sort.Now what I say in that quote is that there should be baddies in the Kitanna bandwaggon. Then Dury goes on "disagreeing" by saying that that were she a wolf she would have considered "going with the flow" eg. voting Kit. And then she says: "I'm really going to have to try to not focus on the people who neatly went along with the Kitanna lynch"???

And the result of all that is that she is disagreeing with me on "several things" (which they might be as with the main point we agree here?) and that makes me evil... Hmm...

I'm also a bit worried about of what she says the next: As for the Lalaith kill, she was set on phantom and interested in Gwath. I doubt she was killed as a potential seer because she suspected a wolf, but her suspicion of phantom and her jump on Gwath were both more purposeful than most of the typical musing going on. Anyway, as Eonwe pointed out, she may have just seemed un-cobblerish to the wolves. And as Fea pointed out, she may have been a *maybe the seer* pick without anything behind it. I mean the way she tries to downplay the possibility of Lalaith's death having to do with tp, even going as long as making this last: "as Fea pointed out, she may have been a *maybe the seer* pick without anything behind it". That I find pretty incredible but what wouldn't a fellow wolf - or a cobbler indeed - do if there were only two of them?

She ends the post as confusedly as the post had been all the time by saying that I made a case against Groin for show only. And yes, he voted for Groin. I had to go back and look, I couldn't remember at all who he voted for. :smokin:

On #201 she suddenly becomes sharper and brighter with comments against Fea's poor / hasty judgements like: I think it's very silly to assume that the cobbler assassin or the seer have done or are going to choose a specific person, I don't care who.
---
The entire village didn't vote for Kitanna. Greenie and I voted for Gwath, Brinniel and Eonwe voted for Greenie, Lommy voted for Nogrod, Nogrod for Groin, and phantom for Lalaith. The scattered voting at the very end is of concern, but everyone's too busy still arguing about yesterDay and is distracted by Form and of course ever distracted by phantom.Also when Brinn pressed the point that the wolves wouldn't like to vote Kitanna she goes: To gain the village's trust. To do something people wouldn't expect a wolf to do. Their goal is more to survive than just to mindlessly slaughter as quickly as possible! To leave a clean vote. To continue a debate that will distract the village...Which is good thinking - even if I do think at least some baddies might not have resisted voting Kit with the wagon on Day1...

Interestingly she says Mith's "moves" have made her practically a known innocent!!!

Both Form and Gwath seem like they're trying to make enemies.

On #230 she doesn't like Kath's attitude and feels sorry for me being misunderstood. Thinks she agrees with some of my points on tp and Fea but still suspects me. Then she makes a list: My baddie list:

Nogrod
Kath
phantom
Fea
Gwath
Nerwen

I feel good about Shasta, Eonwe, Lommy, and Greenie. I feel pretty good about Nilp and Mith. Not sure about Brinn. Did I miss anyone? (Other than Groin.)And ends up with me and tp being the baddies and of us two me even if I had made good points on tp they were made in a wrong fashion and thence I was the more suspicious.

Then she votes: Nogrod because he feels the worst. My brain tells me nasty things about others, but the most *feeling* is involved with him.

---

Well did I get enlightened?

Nope. :)

But it didn't lessen my suspicions a lot either...


EDIT: X'd with Brinn and tp

[the phantom]

Oh, and Shasta- I believe you wanted some clarification on Cobbler comments.

Well if I recall correctly, the attitude behind the first comment was simply that we don't have to try and kill them in order to kill them. Just look at last night. The WWs killed one for us. And with numbers the way they are you know that the Assassin is closing in on others. And you figure we'll lynch one perhaps because part of their job is to get themselves lynched rather than Werewolves.

The second comment I believe I was telling Nogrod that certainly we can't ignore them from a gameplay standpoint, in the sense that certain situations will arise when we must debate or at least privately consider whether something is as it seems or a ploy by a Cobbler.

Basically, we don't need to be desperate to lynch them, but we should be aware in certain situations that Cobblers are present.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I have a quick question. I've never played with cobblers before. As long as we kill the wolves, the village wins, right? We don't have to kill the wolves and the cobblers?

[the phantom]

Unless the rules have changed, I think the number of WWs is the only thing that determines the outcome.

WW numbers = villager numbers, then WWs win

WW numbers = 0, villagers win

[Nogrod]

And Groin...considering his low level of activity, I don't see why he'd be dreamt of over other players.Those two play a lot together - like in RPG's and such - so it would be natural choice for him. But you're right in that we don'r know. Yes we do not.

But just coming back to one point on my "Durylysis". Now she said yesterDay that Mith is as good as a known innocent. And then Mith died the next Night.

Would she be that bold a wolf? I don't think so. It would be a mad gamble with no clear advantages to be won - so just sport.

But someone read that.


It's like being a detective only to find an empty bag of money the murdered had carried before getting killed and realise it was the contents of the bag why she was killed for... :(

[Formendacil]

What's this?

I'm actually not dead?

Unheard of! Absurd!

Or, at least, according to the phantom's calculations of yesterday, I must surely be a cobbler, right?

The consensus seemed to agree with him.

I'm not dead.

So....

Clearly, I'm not a cobbler.

Because the wolves don't eat cobblers if they know them (unless they're trying to confuse the village), and the cobbler-killer does kill... and he didn't last night...

And I was the consensus cobbler-probable.

And I'm not dead?

Does that all make sense?

Of course it does.

Now, the real question is...

Why didn't the cobbler-assassin kill me?

There is, of course, another logical answer...

The cobbler-assassin didn't think I was a cobbler. And while this doesn't exonerate me, but rather leaves me in the "who knows?" category, it should perhaps at least give the phantom-esquely confidant reason to believe that I'm not the only one who doesn't think I'm a cobbler.


And... on another note:

I really do apologise for my limited involvement... but I probably should have known better that to agree to stick with the late start.

On the other hand, I could just be using this because it's a ploy, and I don't normally think to use ploys.

Ploys are good: they irk the phantom.

And I really do love irking the phantom.

[the phantom]

Ploys are good: they irk the phantom.
Oh, but it's a good irk. I love ploys. I even see them when they aren't there. And for every ploy I actually attempt I considered doing three others. I even think of what I might do should a situation arise. Usually the situation doesn't arise. And I cry.

So, the long and the short of what you're saying is this-
Since you are alive you're either not a Cobbler or at the least the Assassin didn't think you were one.

Okay, I'll certainly give you that.

Of course you could still be a WW. But nothing from you has really screamed WW to me. But then you haven't been around a lot. Which bugs me of course. You know how I feel about the lurkers. ;)

[the phantom]

Has anyone done this yet? I didn't see it if so.

Yesterday's voting-

Shasta for Phantom (1)
Form for Phantom (2)
Fea for Shasta (1)
Nilp for Gwath (1)
Kath for Lommy (1)
Durelin for Nogrod (1)
Eonwe for Gwath (2)
Green for Gwath (3)
Mith for Lommy (2)
phantom for Gwath (4)
Brin for Durelin (1)
Nerwen for Lommy (3)
Nogrod for Durelin (2)

[the phantom]

I need some sleep. Be back later.

[Durelin]

Ooh, look at the attention I'm getting. Seriously, though...I never get this much attention when I'm actually a wolf... :p

Anyway...before I get into the whole "I promise I'm not a wolf guyz <3" thing...on to a Nog-centered post, because I just have to respond to him.

I would really like to hear from you Gwath-voters why did you think him a baddie

My vote for Gwath and Day 1 was mostly out of spite for the Kitanna thing, and actually because I purely didn't like his attitude. I warmed up to him a little more on Day 2, perhaps simply because more people seemed interested in him. I am naturally stubborn about "going with the flow." Which makes me think of my comment about me going with the flow on the Kitanna vote if I was a wolf. I don't know if I could have brought myself to do it, but I feel like I would have liked to, because it was just so...easy.

And as we see now, it was a cobbler who suggested the whole idea. :p

She protest the Kit-lynch saying it only gives us one more day to play and says that's silly. But she doesn't say why not take one more day or why is it silly.

It was silly because there was no point to it! It was a boring, toss out of a Day. It extended the game by a Day, but made Day 1 completely pointless (yes, I know some people will argue that it is anyway, but at least normally there are more interesting dynamics besides people arguing principles. I mean, really, it was just one huge distraction! And the rest of the game people will still hold it against those who disagreed with them. ...See??).

Now what I say in that quote is that there should be baddies in the Kitanna bandwaggon. Then Dury goes on "disagreeing" by saying that that were she a wolf she would have considered "going with the flow" eg. voting Kit. And then she says: "I'm really going to have to try to not focus on the people who neatly went along with the Kitanna lynch"???

Yes, I see I focused on one part of what you said. I'd say I was responding to all the "a wolf or cobbler have no reason to want to vote for/lynch Kitanna" going around. I don't even know at this point if you actually said things along those lines, but I thought you had.

I mean the way she tries to downplay the possibility of Lalaith's death having to do with tp

I'm sorry, I feel the need to downplay anything having to do with tp. I don't like talking about him at all. Especially when everyone's saying "oh, the seer must dream of him!"

She ends the post as confusedly as the post had been all the time by saying that I made a case against Groin

Well of course my opinions are going to be confusing to you if you don't like them. :p

On #201 she suddenly becomes sharper and brighter with comments against Fea's poor / hasty judgements like:

Because the former post was a post of emotion regarding the Kitanna-lynch-fiasco.

I mean, I feel pretty stupid for somehow not seeing what Nogrod really thought about the Kitanna-lynch (See? My thoughts have been tainted for the rest of the game! Thanks Mith.), but it seemed to me on Day 1 he pretty much stayed out of it, and then on Day 2 his opinions seem mixed (but of course I'm not going back and looking at posts...). Okay, maybe I just don't like people being neutral-ish.

Something random not me attempting explaining myself or talking about Nog: So Greenie sealed Gwath's fate (in a tie, the last person to get the highest number of votes is lynched in this game), and phantom put him over the top. Now, I have to talk about him, because I wonder if this is truly a "for show" vote (edit: or an extra-padding vote). Another interesting thing is that he could have voted for Lommy, if he was aware of Mith's vote for Lommy and made her the lynchee instead of Gwath if he wanted.

But why would the seer quickly list off his dreams as innocent when he can't be sure if they're ordos or cobblers? By listing someone off as innocent it would give more of a message to trust that person rather than just not lynch them. While if he listed his dreams as cobblers, we'd know not to lynch them but at least not necessarily trust them.

I have to agree with Nogrod and tp on the most likely seer dreams, because listing people as 'innocent' was the only certain thing he did. Everyone is aware that the seer actually can't tell if the person is a cobbler, he doesn't need to specify that. Listing people as cobblers as well was very smart, because once revealed as the seer we know that is very ambiguous but it also certainly covered up the fact that he was listing two people as innocents after two nights. Very nicely done (if we're right).

Omg so long!! Two pages worth of confusing...ness!

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's look at the voting and lynchings/kills so far:

Day 1:

Lommy: Nogrod (1)
Shasta: Kitanna [ordo](1)
Gwath [seer]: Kitanna [ordo](2)
Greenie: Gwath [seer](1)
Durelin: Gwath [seer](2)
Mith [cobbler]: Kitanna [ordo](3)
Nilp: Kitanna [ordo](4)
Lalaith [ordo]: Ye phantome (1)
Nogrod: Groin [ordo](1)
Brinn: Greenie (1)
*Nerwen: Kitanna [ordo](5)
*+Ye phantome: Lalaith [ordo](1)
*Eönwë: Greenie (2)

Lynched: Kitanna [ordo]

Night 2:

Killed: Lalaith [ordo]
Assassinated: -

Day 2:

Shasta: Ye phantome (1)
Form: Ye phantome (2)
Fea: Shasta (1)
Nilp: Gwath [seer] (1)
Kath: Lommy (1)
Durelin: Nogrod (1)
Eönwë: Gwath [seer] (2)
Greenie: Gwath [seer] (3)<2>
Mith [cobbler]: Lommy (2)
Ye phantome: Gwath [seer](4)
Brinn: Durelin (1)
Nerwen: Lommy (3)
(+?)Nogrod: Durelin (2)[/QUOTE]

Lynched: Gwath [seer]

Night 3:

Killed: Mith [cobbler]
Assassinated: -


*= vote didn't count
+= thought/ knew vote didn't count
()= total votes for person that day so far
<>= total votes for person from an individual so far
[]= known status/ postion e.g. ordo

[A Little Green]

Huh.

I would really like to hear from you Gwath-voters why did you think him a baddie - and it would be interesting to go back and see the claimed reasons as it looks there was some easy bandwaggoning included. I think I have already explained why I suspected him to be wolf - he sort of flip-flopped and tiptoed around, his overall manner was apologetic, and he gave me wolvish vibes. Yes, I am ashamed. :o

But just coming back to one point on my "Durylysis". Now she said yesterDay that Mith is as good as a known innocent. And then Mith died the next Night. I believe she said that more as a criticism on the fact that Mith was being generally trusted because of the Kit-affair, not as "I'm convinced Mith is innocent".. I think it was me who first voiced concern on that matter and she seconded me.

There is, of course, another logical answer...

The cobbler-assassin didn't think I was a cobbler. And while this doesn't exonerate me, but rather leaves me in the "who knows?" category, it should perhaps at least give the phantom-esquely confidant reason to believe that I'm not the only one who doesn't think I'm a cobbler.
Apart from this and the option that you are not a cobbler, there is the option that the Cobbler Assassin did note you as a possible cobbler but there was someone he suspected more. We'll see next Night.

Back with more...

[Eönwë]

Any conclusions?

I have noticed, though, that everone the phantom has voted (or been "playful" with, and by that I mean Mith) has died. Be careful Fea.

But maybe there is another reason for Mith's untimely demise:

The only exception to the above rule was Kitanna, and maybe since Mith prevented tp from getting who he wanted to get lynched (i.e. Lalaith), then he had to get rid of her.

Or maybe she voted for his packmate, and he needed to get rid of her. Maybe he thought (whatever he says he did) that Mith was the seer and had found them both out. She just needed to keep him happy while she went after Lommy.

Just mere speculation.

[A Little Green]

So here comes a quick look on the villagers.

Fea - A difficult case. I'm a bit uneasy about her at the moment.

Shasta - Sleeping under my reindeer.

Form - Torn about him, too. I think the cobbler assassin would have tried him last Night, unless s/he had someone s/he suspected even more. In this light I think it more probable that he is not a cobbler, but then his style of posting (see his first toDay!) seems deliberately confusing and weird and careless and rings all cobbler bells. He might even be a very bold wolf, actually.. See what a plan! Behaving so cobblerishly that the village decides to leave him for the assassin, who can't harm him since he's really a wolf! Just suggesting... I've never played with him before (?) so I can't compare his behaviour to what he usually is like.

Eönwë - Seems innocent.

Nerwen - Innocentish as well, and besides, she's a sharp player that notices things that others don't, and she really is an asset to the village if she isn't a baddie.

Kath - No read.

Nilp - Can't say. Could be anything.

Dury - I think she looks pretty innocent. Nog's theory of her being a cobbler is interesting but I don't buy it. (And besides, I still have this bad habit of trusting people who agree with me..)

Brinn - On Day 1, I was quite convinced of her innocence. The further the game goes, the less certain I am. I still don't suspect her, really - I'm just not so sure of her innocence as I was.

Nog - Actually, I think he might be a cobbler (or even a wolf or an ordo.. :rolleyes: ) - not because of that Wittgenstein stuff, but because of his manner of trying to look helpful, especially with his analysis of Dury.

Greenie - Me! I'm not a wolf nor a cobbler. I know. :Merisu:

the phantom - I think he's just annoyed to be an ordo and has a need to be important in some other way than through an important role. I don't shut out the possibility of him being a cobbler, but I don't think he's a wolf.

Lommy - Seems innocent.


EDIT: x-ed with Ëonwë - yay, so there is someone else around! *waves happily*

[Eönwë]

yay, so there is someone else around! *waves happily*

:D I'm thinking the same thing.

But I have a sneaky suspicion there's someone else here, who just doesn't want to show their face (well, avatar)

[Eönwë]

So, there (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=565591&postcount=326)it is.
I gave people the data, now let's see how they use it.

[Kath]

Right, quick post before I disappear for a few hours because we have people visiting.

Fea - the rule has always been that so long as the number of Cobblers doesn't equal the number of innocents the village wins.

Also, on Gwath, I think he dreamt of phantom and found him wolvish. He might also have dreamt of Fea. Though he did add that 'if' statement to indicate being unsure it's the most concrete thing we had from him apart from those two Innocent coments which are odd. If Gwath thought through (or noticed) the caveat that Cobblers would appear as innocents in the narration then no way can the Innocent bits mean anything. If not then yeah, he dreamt of those he called Innocent. I can't believe though that our Seer would fail to notice this, so I'm going with my original assumption.

Truly, this is not just me going 'oh it's the phantom, let's kill him', which I admit is my usual reaction to him playing. He hasn't annoyed me in any way, his overbearingness has actually seemed less overt than usual, he's been a nicer guy than I'm used to. I doubt he's simply mellowed, ergo he's a wolf. Well, that's my reasoning anyway. :rolleyes: But really, who are you going to dream of as a Seer when you have phantom and Fea, masters at playing you for a fool? Thought so.

[Thinlómien]

But let me add that toDay they look more like cobblers both of them trying to fill the thread with things that don't actually help us eg. speculating their mutual interpretations of what the other thought about this and that and all that other stuff. And with Eönwe already going along with that speculation it seems they are succeeding...Well that indeed is true. Or then maybe one of them is a wolf and the other is a cobbler? Somehow, all their chattiness makes me feel that they can't be both all nice and innocent, but on the other hand, if there are two people who would act like that when innocent, it's Fea and tp... :rolleyes:

I find it funny that Nogrod complains about others rewriting his posts and then he goes and semi-rewrites a post of mine. ;)

I suppose there's a possibility Mith was dreamt of Night 1 but she did not look wolfish enough at all to be picked Night 2 in my opinion. And Groin...considering his low level of activity, I don't see why he'd be dreamt of over other players.Why not Groin on Night2? He was practically sleeping under everybody's reindeer and it would have been difficult to get information of him in any other way. Also, if you remember, he posted this enthusiastic post about having a case against a wolf on the admin thread around then, that might have made Gwath raise eyebrows enough to check him.

Nogrod's Durelysis is weird. He writes it as if Durelin should/would have known the roles of those who are dead by now. It is odd.

Also, the way Nogrod first suspects Durelin, then concludes he can't be sure after the analysis, and then proceeds on making up this point that semi-proves her innocence is rather troubling. It looks like a wolf's attempt to stop suspecting a mate in a way that it doesn't look too fishy. I'm inclined to think Nogrod would do such thing exactly like that: gradually and by analysis to make it reasonable, not just say "she doesn't feel that guilty anymore". And he might have had a reason to stop suspecting his fellow too: unless I'm mistaken, there has been an increasing suspicion of Dury and if it started to look troubling to a fellow-Nogrod, he would of course have to stop suspecting her as he indeed was one of the main advocates of lynching her and in a game with just two wolves, they can't afford losing each other very early. (Hey, even Nogrod's "making a point" castaway vote for Durelin makes sense if they're fellows!) Okay, I won't get too excited about this theory yet. I would have to look through all their posts to form a proper opinion. I know they've been kind of against each other more or less the whole game, but I'm not sure if the wolves would be that bold. (On the other hand, Nogrod and Durelin are the sort of people that would dare to play it bold.) Well, this certainly gave me something to think about.

Unless the rules have changed, I think the number of WWs is the only thing that determines the outcome.
WW numbers = villager numbers, then WWs win
WW numbers = 0, villagers winAnd the cobblers are counted to the village numbers, right? Because, I've known them to be counted to the ww numbers (which definitely wouldn't be the case in this game anyway, I think) or them being counted to neither.

Kath's absence bothers me. Where have you been, gal? I know she's not a loudmouth but she tends to post more. She's sleeping under my reindeer, and I don't like it.

Or maybe she voted for his packmate, and he needed to get rid of her. Maybe he thought (whatever he says he did) that Mith was the seer and had found them both out. She just needed to keep him happy while she went after Lommy.Wait? Are you saying that the wolves killed Mith last Night because they thought she was the seer? That is a rather shaky theory: Gwath the Seer was already dead by then, so the wolves would have known that no one else is a seer. But then again, I don't think I got the point of your theory in the first place, so maybe I've just misinterpreted your words... Or are you intentionally not making sense... cobbler? :p

And lastly, what's up with Form? He confuses me. I think he just can't be innocent. But whether he is a cobbler or a very bold and crazy wolf, I don't know...


edit: xed with Kath - good to see her around

[the phantom]

Another interesting thing is that he could have voted for Lommy, if he was aware of Mith's vote for Lommy and made her the lynchee instead of Gwath if he wanted.
First- I wasn't aware of Mith's vote when I went to make my post.
Second- I still would've voted Gwath, as even with Mith's vote he still had the lead. I was voting for the leader, plain and simple. I had no interest in leaving the door open for me to retake the lead and get lynched.
I have to agree with Nogrod and tp on the most likely seer dreams, because listing people as 'innocent' was the only certain thing he did. Everyone is aware that the seer actually can't tell if the person is a cobbler, he doesn't need to specify that.
Thank you!!

It's nice to know that at least a couple of people can see what is smack in front of their faces.

Now, onto Eonwe, who seriously thinks that a Phantom-Wolf would kill a Mith-Cobbler. If you had been reading my posts today, you would've read that post where I point out that from my perspective Mith came across as rather Cobblerish yesterday.

So me being an intelligent WW decided I'd kill someone who was not only a Cobbler, but a Cobbler who had a special soft spot for me and would be extremely likely to continue helping me. Oh yes, makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:
Maybe he thought (whatever he says he did) that Mith was the seer and had found them both out.
Oh, now that makes even more sense! I killed Mith because I thought she was the Seer. Oh, of course!

No... wait.... the Seer was already dead, wasn't he? :rolleyes:

Seriously Eonwe- try and think your arguments through before you post them. You can't just pick someone to go after despite all the facts.

(to be continued)

[the phantom]

Okay, and now for the grand exhibit of bad reasoning.
I think he dreamt of phantom and found him wolvish. He might also have dreamt of Fea. Though he did add that 'if' statement to indicate being unsure it's the most concrete thing we had from him...
Oh, of course.

Gwath found BOTH Werewolves, but he decided that he wouldn't say anything about it. Yeah- because as we all know Gwath is a complete moron, and has no idea how to play. :rolleyes:

Even if he would've found only one Werewolf he would've made sure that we could tell! Sorry, but you're really ticking me off, Kath. Your post was obviously made under the assumption that Gwath is stupid, which he is not!

Will someone please suggest a scenario where an Ordo Kath would spout nonsense like this? Because I'd really like to lynch her. Really.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I have noticed, though, that everone the phantom has voted (or been "playful" with, and by that I mean Mith) has died. Be careful Fea.

1) Careful isn't one of my strong points.

2) The phantom isn't likely to kill me until later, if he's going to kill me at all. And of course he's going to try to kill me. If he's a wolf, he has to. If he's a cobbler, he'd like to. And if he's a villager, he'll kill everybody else to ascertain victory because one innocent standing is still a microcosmic victory for the entire village, and knowing him, he's likely to propose that we whittle ourselves away until he's the last one standing, at which point he will shout his true identity and we'll see who won. Point being, I doubt he'll try to kill me yet. You? You might be in more trouble. Chances are, Shasta's in bigger trouble than you. Me? I'm pretty safe.

I've never played with him before (?) so I can't compare his behaviour to what he usually is like.

He's usually not quite this playful, and more verbose. Dead Serious is a very appropriate pt.

Kath - No read.

I know, right? Kath, why are you so invisible? I need you, Kath, I want you! Come jump around in the spotlight for a little while so I can judge you.

But really, who are you going to dream of as a Seer when you have phantom and Fea, masters at playing you for a fool? Thought so.

Aww! You're right, though. But Gwath doesn't know me as well as others. It's quite possible he took me for granted. But there's the obvious other choice, which I'd take as a seer playing against myself: I'd not bother with the phantom and Fea, knowing they'd probably just get themselves lynched anyway. Why waste dreams on conspicuous people? Dream of low profile folk who don't garner votes, and can hide. Dream of the people who have no evidence mounting against them otherwise. If I was seer, I'd be dreaming little dreams. Me and the phantom? Masters we are, but I wouldn't dream of either of us.

Seriously Eonwe- try and think your arguments through before you post them. You can't just pick someone to go after despite all the facts.

Maybe he did think through the argument and posted anyway because cobblers enjoy confusing people.

Will someone please suggest a scenario where an Ordo Kath would spout nonsense like this? Because I'd really like to lynch her. Really.

Scenario: Ordo Kath has not been around as often as is usual. Consequently, when she reads, she skims to keep up. Adding to the high paced read through, she has prior knowledge of several players. The phantom and Fea are not new to her: she knows that she would dream of them. She posits the theory while she has time, with the idea to come back later and think a bit harder.

Lynch her anyway?

[the phantom]

Bah, can't talk now. Have music practice. Then teaching little kids. Then lunch.

But I'll find at least an opportunity or two to jump on and skim between all of that. This is by far my worst 24 hour cycle as far as finding time to keep up. :rolleyes:

[Rikae]

And the cobblers are counted to the village numbers, right? Because, I've known them to be counted to the ww numbers (which definitely wouldn't be the case in this game anyway, I think) or them being counted to neither.

In the final head count, the cobblers are the same as innocents.

If the number of innocents should equal that of the wolves and cobblers combined, the game will continue, either until the number of wolves is equal to that of innocents plus cobblers, or until all wolves are dead.

[Kath]

Oh go on then, lynch me. :D

Nah don't, I'm having a rather nice time. Been a while since I've lived, perhaps I'm high on the experience. Anyway, phantom, I never said that Gwath was stupid, I don't believe that's true, I was in fact defending him against those who said he'd list people he'd dreamt of as Innocent. As to him dreaming of two wolves and not saying anything, ok, I didn't think that through. But in that case, you're a wolf and he hadn't yet dreamt of Fea - sorted. :)

If this is annoying you then you have my apologies, I seem to have no desire to play in my usual style, it's so boring.

[Eönwë]

Wait, that last paragraph of my post #328 doesn't make sense to me now, on afterthought. I was just posting my thoughts out loud. And once I'd thought the better of my little theory, I couldn't change it, could I? That's just makes things worse.

I think that at the time when I wrote that I was looking at a different Day, in which the commentary was posted over an hour after DL. If you had been really, really eager, you may have voted then. Anyway, I was just explaining my thought process at the time. I admit it, I didn't check the facts. I didn't think things through.:o


And by the way, phantom, just so you know- I don't suspect you, it was just an idea.

edit: And you are clearly over-reacting, too.

[the phantom]

And you are clearly over-reacting, too.
Clearly you haven't seen me in many villages. My behavior to this point is nothing compared to what I'm capable of. ;)

I'm about to eat lunch at a birthday party, but I'll definitely be able to get back on before the deadline.

I don't know what to do with Kath. After that last post I still think she's not innocent. Problem is she's ringing the Cobbler alarm and not the Werewolf alarm, and I'd much rather lynch a Werewolf at this point seeing as we still have the Assassin around.

Oo, gotta go right now! Be back later.

[Eönwë]

Clearly you haven't seen me in many villages. My behavior to this point is nothing compared to what I'm capable of.

Well, I've only seen you in DWII, and I didn't know how much of your "phantomness" (as I now know it was) was due to you being te GW or you being you. Now I know.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That is perhaps THE most ironic statement I've read all game. :rolleyes:

Yes yes, I'm here now and will be voting, hold your applause please.

[Thinlómien]

I'm here, I'm tired, I have a flu and I have no idea who's a wolf.

*sigh*

(Don't I sound miserable? :D)

I might like to check Durelin's and Nogrod's posts to see if my theory of them being in cahoots holds water, but it's less than an hour till deadline and Greenie has to post too, so I doubt I will have time.

Kath and Eönwë are both acting oddly. This comment of Kath's makes me wonder:
If this is annoying you then you have my apologies, I seem to have no desire to play in my usual style, it's so boring.Seems pretty cobblerish.

And Eönwë then... is he just an innocent newbie-ish player whos' intimidated by tp's criticism, or is he a wolf getting a bit jumpy when his weird schemes are spotted?

PS.In the final head count, the cobblers are the same as innocents.
If the number of innocents should equal that of the wolves and cobblers combined, the game will continue, either until the number of wolves is equal to that of innocents plus cobblers, or until all wolves are dead. Thanks for clarification, Rikae! :)

[Thinlómien]

Oh, and there's one thing that makes me wonder. Why has everybody been so silent today? There's hardly been proper discussion or argumenting. The wolves are probably quite comfortable in their hideouts... :rolleyes: (I know, I haven't been active or aggressive either, so I maybe shouldn't complain. But this really does trouble me. Even now, it's an hour till the deadline and it's almost dead silent. Where is everybody?)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, in regards to Kath, I feel the exact same way (has anyone noticed? :p), and I know I'm innocent, so. Because we all saw exactly how far methodical, careful, thoughtful Shasta went last game. :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, Lommy, I really want to vote phantom again. But I know if I do, I'll get the double-hammer of a phantom/Fea vote, so that's not really appetizing.

[Thinlómien]

Because we all saw exactly how far methodical, careful, thoughtful Shasta went last game. :rolleyes:Would you like to make a one-liner summary for us who unfortunately missed last game? :Merisu: But I don't think anyone should give up being thoughtful or methodical, even if it backfires sometimes. However, people should play as suits them best and how they have the most fun, as far as they contribute - which has not been a problem in this game for anyone's part. (Am I flip-flopping now? :D Yeah, everybody has been contributing but there should still be more talk.)

edit: xed with Shasta

[Thinlómien]

Well, Lommy, I really want to vote phantom again. But I know if I do, I'll get the double-hammer of a phantom/Fea vote, so that's not really appetizing.I don't think they're that vengeful... ;)

[Nogrod]

As I look around me I see that there are seven people who are on my side and wish us to get away from this evil labyrinth and five who do not wish us well.

I'll make a first division then...

Those I have actually suspected in this game:
Feanor of the Peredhil
the phantom
Durelin

Those I'm quite baffled about:
Formendacil
Eönwë
Kath

Those I have no idea but am a bit worried:
Nilpaurion Felagund
Thinlómien

Those I have no idea but feel better with:
Shastanis Althreduin
Nerwen
Brinniel
A Little Green


What worries me the most is that the three I have suspected are those who have either been loud and visible / whom I have "analysed" a bit. That's not good. A noncontroversial wolf would have slipped just too nicely from my radar - and if they both play it safe at least I'm totally at the wrong tracks then. And that's what I fear now as I look at the list.

I need to get some more concrete stuff now. *goes back searching for anything that could help*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I can for my own experience, Lommy. It involved a wolf-Boro, a Ranger-Shasta, and a battle of the reveals. I think you can guess who was believed and who wasn't. :rolleyes:

We need to get you a trampoline, m'dear. :D

Edit: X'd with Lommy and her father. :P

[Eönwë]

And Eönwë then... is he just an innocent newbie-ish player whos' intimidated by tp's criticism, or is he a wolf getting a bit jumpy when his weird schemes are spotted?

Me? Weird schemes? Never!:p

edit: x-ed since Lommy #345

[the phantom]

Well, Lommy, I really want to vote phantom again.
Because you think I'm guilty? Sorry, but I have to ask.

[Brinniel]

Yeah, I agree Kath is acting pretty cobblerish...cobblerish, but not wolfish. When she's a wolf, she's usually much more subtle.

Formy is either a cobbler or an ordo acting like a cobbler. I remember him mentioning he won't be able to participate much if he's still alive late in the game due to RL, so the latter is possible...

Where is Nerwen? She's one person I wanted to have a closer look at toDay, but she hasn't shown up...

And Lommy's right...it's strangely quiet here. I expected there to be a whole new page when I returned today, but no. Why so silent?

*sigh* Less than an hour until deadline and I have no clue who to vote for...

EDIT: X-ed since #347

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Because you think I'm guilty? Sorry, but I have to ask.

I think you're a Cobbler.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Why so silent?

Why so serious?

*falls over laughing*

Edit: Whoops. Nog and Brinn's avatars are so similar.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I do agree with Brinn (and tp) that Kath might be a cobbler indeed. Yes she's much more subtle and reasonable when she's a wolf. Also, and to me this is the strongest point, she hasn't suspected me or raised a campaign to lynch me. She always thinks I'm a wolf but now she has indeed used Lommy's suspicions of me as reasons to suspect Lommy. So, she thinks I'm a wolf as always but as a cobbler she plays it the other way around... :)

Now the question remains whether we should leave her to the cobbler-assassin or is s/he already overworking...

[A Little Green]

Okay. I think I might vote Form toDay - since he isn't dead my guess is that he is actually a wolf and that is why he's still alive. And if he isn't a wolf then it's at least quite likely that he is a cobbler, given the way he behaves. And even if he is an ordo he's at least a confusing one and I feel more at ease with not having to ponder about him.. :rolleyes:

Other possibilities could be Nog or Fea or Nilp (because he's the most wolvish of all the under-the-reindeer people).

By the way, it has been nice to see more of both Kath and Shasta. I think I have more to think about both of them. At the moment Kath feels innocent.


EDIT: x-ed since Brinn

[Nogrod]

And Lommy's right...it's strangely quiet here. I expected there to be a whole new page when I returned today, but no. Why so silent?And add to that that there are very little arguments or analysis made. No one is making cases - well, I've tried but admit they're not the flashy ones either - no one is making strong suspicions. Like everyone is hiding their heads in the bushes hoping for someone else to do something. I mean "to do something" - many have posted a lot but rarely anything that would actually reveal what they think (or what they would want us to believe they think) or what they mean to do.

[Durelin]

Other possibilities could be Nog or Fea or Nilp (because he's the most wolvish of all the under-the-reindeer people)

Yes, let's please not forget about Nilp.

Sorry I haven't been around much toDay, moving into college and all that.

[Brinniel]

Btw, what's with all the reindeer references from Lommy and Greenie? I know you're from Finland and all, but don't you think you're overplaying it a bit? I think perhaps it's a conspiracy...like a secret word or something. ;)

Sorry, but I couldn't resist. :D

[Nogrod]

I need to disagree with Greenie a bit. I read Form's latest which has raised so many eybrows.

He isn't a wolf. I'm not going to eat my hat if he is (I don't have one either) but I can't believe it based on his post there.

I don't think he's a cobbler either even if that possibility I rank higher than him being the wolf. To me he seems like a little annoyed ordo who, because of the limited time he has in his hands likes to protest the village consensus led by tp yesterDay and to kind of say: "I told you, morons" - with a smile to be sure.

[A Little Green]

I do agree with Brinn (and tp) that Kath might be a cobbler indeed. You can lynch me for this if you will but I disagree. She hasn't given me any cobblerish vibes at all. This is basically gut-feeling but I think she feels pretty genuine.

I'm wondering.. I'll probably vote Form or Nilp - Nog is probably a cobbler or an innocent so I won't waste a vote on him. Probably Form, since Nilp hasn't shown up toDay so I'd feel kind of evil to lynch him without him being able to defend himself in any way...


EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Brinn

[the phantom]

Phew. I actually will be able to vote. The house I was at lost their internet but I went outside and hijacked a signal, so I'm good to go now! :)

[A Little Green]

Okay, I'll vote

++ Form

For reasons stated earlier.

Btw, what's with all the reindeer references from Lommy and Greenie? Oh, that's just something that came up when we were playing live werewolf at our summer cottage and someone pronounced "slip" so that it sounded like "sleep". I'm not sure where the reindeer came from, though - I think it had to do with Rune being called Rudolph... :p


EDIT: x-ed with tp

[the phantom]

I agree with whoever said things had been way to quiet today and there hadn't been lots of good cases against people.

But I don't think I have a right to complain about it because I haven't been around much today. I think many of us are just having rough schedules this particular cycle.

[Nogrod]

I try to continue this method of exclusion then as there seems to be little time for any massive "cases".

Dury I'm now bending to look more like an innocent - or a cobbler the most (yeah Lommy, think what you think but you're still wrong with it). She wouldn't have pointed to Mith being "universally innocent" and then gone to kill her the next Night. As a cobbler she might have wished to point that to the wolves to be sure.

the phantom I think plays innocentishly. We've had differencies of interpretation but he has given reasonable explanations to his views as well. The bad thing sure is he could pull that were he a wolf as well. But I strongly doubt tp would have killed Mith during the Night. The same fact makes me think a bit better of Lommy as well as I now come to think of it from that angle.

[Durelin]

I agree with Nogrod about Form... Hmm...

I am somehow having trouble in this game doing anything more than coming up with people who I feel are innocent. So then I am left with a list of names, any of which I could vote for. Egh.

The idea of making the wolves priority seems to have become avoid the cobblers somehow. If we're going to lynch someone, a cobbler is certainly better than an innocent! We can't rely on our cobbler assassin anymore than we should ever rely on any gifted. And, this "oh, they seem more like a cobbler so I don't want to lynch them" thing is probably keeping us from really going after our wolves.

Anyway...finally have time to rant about something or other and it's almost deadline... Gonna vote in a minute.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Timecheck...

Edit: Okay, my computer's clock is exactly 15 minutes fast.

[the phantom]

I think you're a Cobbler.
Ah. Now I know. But I can assure you that I am not one. But naturally a denial doesn't hold much water in this game.

Here's my dilemma- my two highest suspects I suspect not of Wolvery but Cobblery (not a word probably). The person who I feel the most strongly is something other than a Cobbler might well be the Assassin, so I don't want to make a WW case against them naturally.

The WWs seem to be completely absent from my mind, and I don't like it much.

So what to do? Try and lynch a Cobbler, or go for someone who I have no clue about and hope it's a WW?

[Nogrod]

I might go for Fea as she really gives me the creeps - and I think she hasn't made a single suspicion on anyone but a few retaliatory remarks on those who have dared to suspect her.

Or if someone of you give me a good reason to vote for someone I already feel worried about...

[Thinlómien]

18 minutes till deadline and I don't know who to vote. I could vote Nog or Dury although that would be a bit bad because I haven't had the time to see if my suspicion holds water. I'll do that toMorrow if I'm still alive. I don't like Fea's and phantom's schemes but I wouldn't vote them just based on that. I suspect Brinn in a way but not enough to vote her yet. Voting Form or Kath who both look pretty cobblerish to me is tempting, but then again it would be better to lynch a wolf.

edit: xed with Shasta, tp and Nog

[Durelin]

Fea and Kath seem evil. Nog feels evil. Greenie suddenly seems like a bold wolf.

Next post will be my vote, really...

[Brinniel]

Since I really have no clue on who to vote for, I'll categorise everyone into who I'd be willing to vote for and who I definitely won't be.

Possibilities:
Feanor of the Peredhil
Shastanis Althreduin
Eönwë
Nogrod
the phantom
Thinlómien

Not:
Formendacil
Nerwen
Kath
Nilpaurion Felagund
Durelin
A Little Green

Those in the not category are those who I think are ordo/cobbler or are absent toDay (and I want to hear from them before voting them). Durelin and Greenie are two I'm least certain about but I said I wouldn't vote them toDay and I'm holding to that...though it could change toMorrow depending on what happens.

But who do I suspect most among that list? Or should I go ahead and vote for someone I think is a cobbler?

I might go for Fea as she really gives me the creeps
Fea scares me too. Especially after what happened last game I played with her...if I'm remembering correctly.

[Thinlómien]

Nog - that's a good point about Fea. She really hasn't been suspecting much, or she has, but she has never given proper reasons... Maybe she's a cobbler and we should lynch her? But if I'm to vote a cobbler, I'd be more comfortable with voting Kath or Form...

edit: xed with Brinn

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I won't be voting Fea or Kath.

[Nogrod]

If I was seer, I'd be dreaming little dreams. Me and the phantom? Masters we are, but I wouldn't dream of either of us.It's basically seer tactics worth pondering and sometimes executing but how do I get the feeling she's making this remark in a purposeful way?

And btw. I went back a few of her posts only to get comfirmation to my feeling. She doesn't suspect or anything. So no one should have anything against her either? That's the way too many wolves have gotten far indeed; by being agreeable and looking like being active while they're in fact not but kind of hide in the stage-lights.

[the phantom]

Did Nerwen say she'd be gone today? I hate that she isn't around because as I said at the beginning of the day her reactions yesterday looked extremely innocentish, and I'd be willing to listen to her more than most.

I haven't been thinking about Nilp and Green at all. Totally under my radar, they've been.

[Brinniel]

Ten minutes to go and only one vote?

So I guess all of us are completely stumped... :rolleyes:

[Durelin]

++Fea

toDay, Nog maybe tomorrow.

[Nogrod]

Ten minutes to go and only one vote?I went checking the same thing. That's right.

I'm for Fea. And I do think / hope she's a wolf more than a cobbler.


EDIT: X'd with Dury

[Brinniel]

Oh, we really don't need a last minute voting frenzy:

++Fea

She always slips under my radar and is so dangerous when evil. I wish I were more confident in this vote, but I'm mostly going by gut...so I hope my gut is right.

EDIT: X-ed with Noggie

[Thinlómien]

I'm now wondering if I should vote Fea after all. I have been thinking that she's either an innocent or a cobbler, but I guess it would kind of fit if she was a wolf... Should I vote her? (That was a rhetorical question, I'm not expecting any of you to give me advice... I don't trust you... ;))

edit: xed with Brinn

[the phantom]

I'm more than willing to vote Kath or Form as Cobblers.

Fea- possible Cobbler, but not a WW.

Nilp and Green could be slippery WWs, but I don't have a strong suspicion of them.

I'm undecided on everyone else, but rather inclined to trust Nerwen, and possibly Brin as well.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ehh... No.

++Formendacil

[Nogrod]

Okay. Where are you?

Are you all cobblers around?

I mean this should be checked toMorrow. This silence has happened already earlier.

Cobblers would just wait not giving forwards their cards...



HAHA, x'd with a host...

[Thinlómien]

Well then, let's go with the last minute gut-feeling...

++Fea

At least if we kill her, we'll be rid of her and tp's mystic exchanges... :rolleyes: :p

edit: xed with Noggie who looks like a paranoid cobbler... ;)

[Nogrod]

++ Fea

Reasons given already.

[the phantom]

Well, it looks like Kath escaped the noose. Rats. It looks to be between Form and Fea.

[Thinlómien]

Is everybody waiting for the last possible minute? This is madness... :D

PS. Nog will you SMS me if you stay up to see the results... I'm going to sleep but I don't know how long it takes me to actually fall asleep...

edit: xed with Nog and tp

[Nogrod]

edit: xed with Noggie who looks like a paranoid cobbler... ;)Even paranoids do have enemies... :D

[the phantom]

+ + Form

I'll try and save Fea.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wow, this lack of activity is... pretty bad.

[Macalaure]

Deadline.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That's four for Fea and three for Form.

Edit: Oops! Sorry Mac! :(

[Macalaure]

A few of our adventurers were granted to dream magical dreams and walk in the Gardens of Lórien, yet one was among them whose dreams were obscure enough to not need any augmentation - and she also never tried to conceal what her visions told her:

I have a dream. A dream where one day... the world becomes kaleidoscopic, like a lemming. Yes... that is my dream. Make of it what you will. It is profound though. Never doubt its profundity.

Fea's dream was disregarded by everybody, and only Gwathagor, the one who had really gotten to know the beauty of Valinor, if only a little part of it, found it necessary to show her visions their due place:

I don't think seers actually make seer-hints. The repetition of the word "dream" may only be incidental, but it might also be a wolf's attempt to gain credibility.

Yet neither he nor Fea herself would have guessed that mightier powers than they were about to take her "Make of it what you will" quite literary...

*~*

The third day of the adventurers travels out of Utumno had gone rather unspectacularly. An accusation here, a suspicion there - it was almost without a warning that Fea suddenly saw things that scared her. Did Durelin's front teeth suddenly grow? Why did Brinniel suddenly look furry? Are those whiskers?

Then madness ensued around her. The entire expedition had transformed not into wolves, but lemmings, and blindly they ran after one another, one train of lemmings shouting Feanor! Feanor! and one Formendacil! Formendacil! Yet some lemmings seemed to be as confused as Fea, standing by motionlessly and not knowing which bandwaggon to follow.

At last it became clear to Fea that the lemmings shouting her name were in the majority - and they were storming towards her! She was too paralysed to utter a word or give resistance, and Durelin and Brinniel grabbed her arms and pinned her to the ground. Then Lommy came and forced Fea's mouth open, while Nogrod brought a small barrel of wizard's gunpowder, and poured its content into his poor victim. After Nogrod attached a fuse to her and lit it, the lemmings fled and waited until Fea exploded with a deafening noise. In quite a violent way, Fea's world had been turned into a kaleidoscope of herself.

The lemmings returned to inspect the outcome of their deed. They looked around the floor, walls, and ceiling of the hallway they were in, but every separated detail of Fea still looked rather regular and ordinary. Only when they stepped back again did they saw the true marvel of their deed. The splinters of her bones, the shreds of her skin, and the pieces of her brain, all coloured in various shades of red, formed a piece of truly outstanding abstract art none of them, save maybe Fea herself, had envisioned before.

*~*

Dead:
Macalaure and Rikae (mods) - killed by wolves and turned into faulty quenya in Night One
Kitanna (ordo) - lynched by a pointless mob on Day One
Lalaith (ordo) - severed from her chalk, and her head, in Night Two
Groin Redbeard (ordo) - died from exhaustion on Day Two
Gwathagor - (seer) turned into a talking corpse on Day Two
Mithalwen - (cobbler) made into a diverse set of items in Night Three
Feanor of the Peredhil - (ordo) visionary whose body was turned into abstract art on Day Three

Alive:
Shastanis Althreduin - loner roane
Formendacil - snowbird
Eönwë - seller of pointless fakes
Nerwen - treasure-seeker
Kath - unemployed bum
Nilpaurion Felagund - aged tale-seeker
Durelin - eccentric, misanthropic archaeologist
Brinniel - junk collector
Nogrod - pointless philosopher
A Little Green - blind astronomer who sells stars at the stock exchange
the phantom - obtainer of rare antiquities
Thinlómien - marine zoologist

Night Four has begun.

[Macalaure]

A being of the night lurked around after everyone else had gone to sleep. Silently he raised himself, taking a look at the blade that only he could see. Come my sword, we shall slay evil tonight.

The alert ear could have heard him muttering to himself whil sneaking among the sleeping. Because you will not let us exit; because you scorn our attempts at healing; because you chose for your instrument sanguinary, dirty, ugly werewolves; because you are unjust, unfair, unkind, I will block you! I will hinder and harm your creatures on Arda as far as I am able.

He stepped towards one of the sleeping.

And you, Formendacil, shall be the one I start with.

Formendacil woke from his sleep confused: You? What do you want from me?

You shall taste the steel of my blade, cobbler!

Cobbler? But I am no cobbler!

Yes, you are!

No! I am not dead. Two days ago the consensus agreed that I was a cobbler, yet, I did not die at night. Therefore I am no cobbler.

You did not die because I chose to let you live.

I don't believe you. If I look into my heart, all I find are intentions to achieve the best for our expedition. I would never wilfully try to lead us astray. I do not bow to the unsurpassable power of He Who Arises in Might. I worship the web of lies that the Valar have cast over our eyes to enslave us.

The cobbler assassin did not look convinced. Let me put it to a test. he said, and shoved his sword down Formendacil's throat down to his heart, and Formendacil died a quick death.

Two to go.

*~*

Another adventurer was wakened before dawn had come. Nilpaurion Felagund, the aged tale-seeker, opened his eyes - and looked into the two fiery pairs of eyes of ghastly werewolves!

Are you going to kill me now? he asked afraid.

I see that age has made you wise. a werewolf answered smugly.

Nilp was deeply scared. He was too old to give them a fight, and could only think of one way out for him. Will you grant me one wish before I die?

Well, I think we are feeling generous tonight - our mission is going very smoothly so far. What do you wish?

I am a tale-seeker, and I am very interested in your story. You creatures must be thousands of years old, and have done many gruesome and great deeds. I would like to write those down so they will be preserved in song for all eternities.

Nilp achieved what he wanted to. His words met their mark right in the werewolves' evil egoes. They started telling him their long tale, and hours passed. Stories of dark and evil and timeless waiting and wandering were written down. Dawn approached...

I don't think there is much left to say now. one werewolf concluded.

I hate to say it, but I agree. The last few thousand years were a little bit dull down here. added the other.

No, no, surely you underestimate how interesting even those stories are to those who have never been here.

Nah, I don't think so - and I'm tired anyway. I'd like to go to sleep and turn this body into its human shape again.

Nilp broke into sweat. Ah, indeed, morning is coming. We probably should go and wake everybody...

Not so fast. We did not forget what we woke you for in the first place.

Nilp looked into the same evil eyes again that he saw earlier, while in the meantime they had become more friendly. Slowly they approached him.

But, no, tell me more about... don't... you can't... What do I have in my po...

But before the tale-seeker could finish his last plead, the werewolves took his notes and shoved them down his throat, and Nilpaurion suffocated to his death.

*~*

Dead:
Macalaure and Rikae (mods) - killed by wolves and turned into faulty quenya in Night One
Kitanna (ordo) - lynched by a pointless mob on Day One
Lalaith (ordo) - severed from her chalk, and her head, in Night Two
Groin Redbeard (ordo) - died from exhaustion on Day Two
Gwathagor - (seer) turned into a talking corpse on Day Two
Mithalwen - (cobbler) made into a diverse set of items in Night Three
Feanor of the Peredhil - (ordo) visionary whose body was turned into abstract art on Day Three
Formendacil - (cobbler) killed by assassin in Night Four
Nilpaurion Felagund - (ordo) choked on his own tale in Night Four


Alive:
Shastanis Althreduin - loner roane
Eönwë - seller of pointless fakes
Nerwen - treasure-seeker
Kath - unemployed bum
Durelin - eccentric, misanthropic archaeologist
Brinniel - junk collector
Nogrod - pointless philosopher
A Little Green - blind astronomer who sells stars at the stock exchange
the phantom - obtainer of rare antiquities
Thinlómien - marine zoologist

Day Four has begun. Let the madness continue. (sorry for the delay)

[the phantom]

Form was a Cobbler? No way. Impossible.

:p

So yeah, on the plus side, two Cobblers gone. On the minus side, no more Fea. :(

Now if you'll excuse me *sniff* I'm going to go have a cr- I mean, take a walk. *wipes eyes* Darn allergies.

[Nogrod]

If I were a cobbler I would really congratulate myself from yesterDay...

How wrong one can be?

Form was a cobbler.

Fea was an innocent.


With Form I was quite sure he was an innocent (happily our cobbler-assassin disagreed with that).

With Fea I really thought she was up to no good. I just hoped she was a wolf but was more than assured she was at least a cobbler...

10 people.
2 wolves.
2 cobblers.

6-4 on intention toDay.
8-2 on count toDay.


Hooray for the cobbler-assassin!

But let's be careful with the voting for there we're soon going to be the underdogs. Like I said in the beginning of the game. Those cobblers learn Day by Day as we do but they can ally themselves with the wolves who know the situation.

And really, this much RL-hindrances... :( Well, no can do... but really, even if RL presses please try for there are too many we have nothing to go for and the times are getting rough. Blind lynches are not ones we'd afford now.


But I at least will make a basic re-focus now.

I'm afraid the wolves are hiding in the shadows this time.

EDIT: x'd with tp

[Nogrod]

Quoting myself from #350
Those I have no idea but feel better with:
Shastanis Althreduin
Nerwen
Brinniel
A Little GreenThese will be my main concerns toDay.

After that I need to reconsider and think twice whether I wish to stay with my stance with the others.

I mean, I don't believe we have two wolves in that bunch I have just quoted but I'm getting pretty sure there is at least one. Looking at the game this far looks like a classical "loudmouths kill each other and the wolves play cool and noncontroversial".

[Durelin]

I still feel Lommy and Shasta are innocent.

I feel that Nogrod and Kath aren't.

I think Greenie might be evil.

I don't know about Brinniel or phantom.

Grah.

[Durelin]

I feel Eonwe is innocent.

I think Nerwen might be evil.

[Durelin]

What do you think of Kath, Nog?

[Eönwë]

"Now that's an eye opener and no mistake"

Good Work Cobbler Assassin

[Eönwë]

What do you think of Kath, Nog?

The question is: What do you think of Kath, Dury?

[Kath]

Brinn, Nog and Lommy started a very late bandwagon against Fea yesterday. I had wondered where it had come from when I discovered she'd be lynched. They're going on and on about not having a flurry of last minute voting and bandwagons and there they go and do the exact same thing. I don't think they're suspicious for voting for her, she was second on my list, but I think the manner of it most odd.

Ah, and to answer something from Nog yesterDay. Just because I'm not suspecting you doesn't mean anything. With phantom, Fea and Nilp in the game you barely got my attention in terms of automatic suspicion. Now, however, after yesterDay, you've got it. Brinn too actually, more so than Lommy for some reason though I'm not sure why.

[Nogrod]

Let's make these clear - lending Eönwe's list and adding to it...

Day 1:

Lommy: Nogrod (1)
Shasta: Kitanna [ordo](1)
Gwath [seer]: Kitanna [ordo](2)
Greenie: Gwath [seer](1)
Durelin: Gwath [seer](2)
Mith [cobbler]: Kitanna [ordo](3)
Nilp [ordo]: Kitanna [ordo](4)
Lalaith [ordo]: Ye phantome (1)
Nogrod: Groin [ordo](1)
Brinn: Greenie (1)
Nerwen: Kitanna [ordo](5)
+ Ye phantome: Lalaith [ordo](1)
+ Eönwë: Greenie (2)

Lynched: Kitanna [ordo]

Night 2:

Killed: Lalaith [ordo]
Assassinated: -

Day 2:

Shasta: Ye phantome (1)
Form [cobbler]: Ye phantome (2)
Fea [ordo]: Shasta (1)
Nilp [ordo]: Gwath [seer] (1)
Kath: Lommy (1)
Durelin: Nogrod (1)
Eönwë: Gwath [seer] (2)
Greenie: Gwath [seer] (3)
Mith [cobbler]: Lommy (2)
Ye phantome: Gwath [seer](4)
Brinn: Durelin (1)
Nerwen: Lommy (3)
Nogrod: Durelin (2)

Lynched: Gwath [seer]

Night 3:

Killed: Mith [cobbler]
Assassinated: -


Day 3:
Greenie: Form [cobbler] (1)
Durelin: Fea [ordo] (1)
Brinniel: Fea [ordo] (2)
Shasta: Form [cobbler] (2)
Lommy: Fea [ordo] (3)
Nogrod: Fea [ordo] (4)
the phantom: Form [cobbler] (3)

Night 4:

Killed: Nilp [ordo]
Assassinated: Form [cobbler]


On Day 3, seven of thirteen voted!!!

This can not be.


EDIT: X'd from Dury's first one onwards.

[Eönwë]

Brinn, Nog and Lommy

And there was Dury. But actually it's not a bandwaggon when only one person votes.

[Eönwë]

Let's make these clear - lending Eönwe's list and adding to it...


Hey! I was just about to do that.

[Nogrod]

What do you think of Kath, Nog?As I said earlier I do think she might be a cobbler or then she just plays differently - looking at her points there it might be a reasonable assumption added with the scarcity of time and all that.

But this is mutual between us. I tend to suspect her of any possible evil there is whatever the situation... and similarily she may be lost from my view if something more eye-catching comes about but when that is over I tend to turn to back suspecting her. Like she does with me. :rolleyes:

And there was Dury. But actually it's not a bandwaggon when only one person votes.But you need to look at when and why people make their votes! Dury was indeed voting safe... indeed the "safest" of us all as there had been talk about voting Fea and some people agreeing and she just began it for real. That's a good place for a wolf.

A list of votes may tell you a thing or two but you should also look back at the times of the votes and the reasons given to them at that particular time of discussion to get a fuller picture.

Although I still think Dury's remark on Mith's general innocence makes her more an innocent than a wolf.

[Eönwë]

But you need to look at when and why people make their votes! Dury was indeed voting safe... indeed the "safest" of us all as there had been talk about voting Fea and some people agreeing and she just began it for real. That's a good place for a wolf.

You, on the other hand, were in the bandwaggoning position. You turned it from a suspicion into a lynch candidate. After someone gets three votes, people just attach themselves onto that or one of the others with a similar amount of votes.

[Nogrod]

You, on the other hand, were in the bandwaggoning position. You turned it from a suspicion into a lynch candidate. After someone gets three votes, people just attach themselves onto that or one of the others with a similar amount of votes.Worse than that.

I started talking about lynching Fea in the first place and the others sticked to it as they clearly were as confused as I was.

But the wolves (and possibly cobblers) at that time... They must have thought of my "case-making" as a heaven sent gift... :mad:

So I'd really look at that Fea-waggon with that in mind. I supplied the wood but the ignition was a responsibility of four (Dury, Brinn, Lommy and me).

The sad thing is that at least towards the end the wolves might have thought it better to separate themselves from the lynching crowd and make themselves look good *cough Shasta, cough tp*

And who says Greenie is innocent as she writes seldomly and votes early? That's the safest position...

I'm coming back in a minute with the non-voter-stuff so let it be for now...

[the phantom]

I'm going to leave Kath alone for the time being. I really don't think she's a Wolf. She could be a Cobbler, but then so could just about anyone. Plus we still have our Assassin to help with those.

I came away from Day 2 viewing Nerwen as good, and since she wasn't around yesterday my opinion hasn't changed. I'd like to see what her take is after being removed from us for a bit.

I'm thinking that if Nog is evil he is a Werewolf rather than a Cobbler.

Eonwe and Lommy I think are innocent.

I don't have a solid opinion about Brin, Durelin, Shasta, and Green. I swung back and forth between "certainly guilty" and "definitely innocent" during my last skim-through.

[Nogrod]

Those of us who have voted everyDay:
Shasta
Durelin
Brinniel
Nogrod
Greenie

the phantom - was a minute late on Day1.
Lommy - was late on Day2 because of a misunderstanding as we shared the same computer the three of us.


Those not voting everyDay:
Eönwe - voted an hour late on Day1, did not vote on Day3.
Nerwen - did not vote on Day3.
Kath - did not post or vote on Day1, did not voter on Day3.


My conclusions about that:
Eönwe, Nerwen and Kath look more innocent than guilty because of their failures. If we're looking at the wolves they would vote everytime humanely possible.

That means I will not think of any of the three "non-voters" as granted innocents but will have it as my general "working hypothesis". And anyhow. Someone winning a game by consciously not-posting doesn't earn the victory. It will taste shallow in her/his mouth and we others will scorn that kind of victory.


So I believe our wolves are among those who have voted all the time. Criss-crossing a table with whom I have left unnoticed and who have voted everyDay will give me the "search-book" for this Day (eg. tomorrow after work).

Good night!

Do something!

Anything!


EDIT X'd with tp.

[Nogrod]

Dury and Brinn?

It would fit many schemes... not the least yesterDay's action.

Just a gut-feeling. I'll try to look at it after I've slept and had a full day's work...

[Nerwen]

Hello. Anyone around?

I'm really sorry about my absence on Day 3. I couldn't help it, though.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I still think Phantom is a possible cobbler. Something about his "vote to save Fea" yesterday seemed very forced to me. She already had four votes to Form's three, counting his own, and I'm virtually sure Phantom can at least count that high. :p

No, it looks fishy to me. And trust me. I'm a roane. I know what fish smells like.

[Nerwen]

I still think Phantom is a possible cobbler. Something about his "vote to save Fea" yesterday seemed very forced to me. She already had four votes to Form's three, counting his own, and I'm virtually sure Phantom can at least count that high. :p

tp has certainly managed to create plenty of confusion– I'm certainly not prepared to say he isn't a cobbler. However– to give him the benefit of the doubt– there were a whole lot of votes coming in the last few minutes, and it's very easy to lose track in that situation. *shrugs*

[the phantom]

Something about his "vote to save Fea" yesterday seemed very forced to me.
Something about me voting for Form over Fea was forced, eh?

Yeah, because goodness knows I didn't suspect Form at all.

Oh, no wait- I did. For two days.

And goodness knows I wouldn't want to save Fea, because we've never played WW together and done a couple of RPGs together and traded thousands of PMs/emails/IMs over the years.

Oh, no wait- we have.

Doesn't really seem that forced given the fact that I was on good terms with Fea and suspecting Form.

You're grasping desperately here Shasta. You worried that I'm innocent or something and want me out of the way?
She already had four votes to Form's three, counting his own, and I'm virtually sure Phantom can at least count that high.
Oh yes, because I knew for certain that my vote would be the final vote cast, because there wasn't anyone else left to vote.

Oh, no wait- six people hadn't voted yet. Which means all Fea needed to save her was ONE of those six people to come in and vote Form. Obviously it was a possibility.

Yeesh, Shasta, it's like you're not even trying.

Either that or you're trying too hard.

[the phantom]

Okay, I don't know how helpful this will be, but I'm going to attempt to rule out a couple of WW pairs based on the voting.

Day 1:
Leaders were proven non-Wolves. No conclusions.

Day 2:
Nerwen & Lommy probably not a pair.
Kath & Lommy probably not a pair.
Durelin & Nogrod probably not a pair.

Day 3:
Leaders were proven non-Wolves. No conclusions.

[Nerwen]

Something about me voting for Form over Fea was forced, eh?

I assume he meant your explanation, rather than the vote itself– there wasn't much chance of saving Fea at the time you posted. But it's been known for multiple votes to come in at the absolute last second.


I can't really see anything in it.

[the phantom]

I assume he meant your explanation, rather than the vote itself– there wasn't much chance of saving Fea at the time you posted.
Well, first off, all it would have taken is one single person voting for Form and Fea would've been saved. It really wasn't that far fetched.

As far as bothering to say "I'm gonna save Fea"- that was primarily for Fea's benefit. For her to see, I mean.

[Brinniel]

Some first quick thoughts:

Possible wolves:
Durelin
Thinlómien

Possible cobblers:
Kath

Unsure:
Shastanis Althreduin
Nerwen
Nogrod
A Little Green
the phantom

Probably innocent:
Eönwë

Hmm...obviously I have some work to do...

My conclusions about that:
Eönwe, Nerwen and Kath look more innocent than guilty because of their failures. If we're looking at the wolves they would vote everytime humanely possible.

Perhaps those who more consistently don't vote or are behind on the Days are less likely to be wolves, but just because someone isn't around or doesn't vote for one Day definitely doesn't lessen the possibilty of them being a wolf. I know when I was a wolf before I would sometimes have packmates that didn't show up and vote for whatever RL reasons (though usually it was only for one Day)...and those wolves tend to last longer because they so easily slip under the radar.

[Eönwë]

Hello. Anyone here?

[Thinlómien]

I mean, I don't believe we have two wolves in that bunch I have just quoted but I'm getting pretty sure there is at least one. Looking at the game this far looks like a classical "loudmouths kill each other and the wolves play cool and noncontroversial".You know, I have the same feeling. :rolleyes: But at least there's still plenty of us loudmouths around - to make cases against each other. :D I mean, I'm really going to look into the relationship between you and Durelin toDay, but I think I should concentrate on those who slip under my radar too...

Speaking of which...

Are awake under my reindeer
Nogrod
Shasta
Durelin
Eönwë

Doze under my reindeer
tp - Yes, tp slips under my radar, in a way. Could you believe that? But I'm so used to him being around and being like that that I really don't pay attention to him. As if he was something not to bother about, like "oh, he's an ordo or a cobbler, it will be found out sooner or later" and it's rather troubling. (I guess I'm ignoring him the same way you start to ignore constant background noises. :p) I guess it's because he really doesn't seem very suspicious to me. I should just know better than to trust him.
Greenie - I think I should be a tad more critical towards her and not just trust my gut-feeling of her innocence.
Brinniel - Funny, it always crosses my mind that she's suspicious, but it never develops into a proper suspicion. It is weird. And it's bad too. If I have extra time toDay I might have a look at her posts just to see whether she truly merits suspicion or not.

Sleep under my reindeer
Kath - The only thing I that comes to my mind when I think of her in this game is: she suspects me and doesn't suspect Nogrod. And the fact that she hasn't been around much. That's not very good, is it?
Nerwen - She seemed innocent early on, so I just mentally stamped her as an innocent and if she's a wolf, that's just way too bad.

On Day 3, seven of thirteen voted!!!
This can not be.Yeah, that's real madness. I mean, it's totally possible that among those seven there were just three ordos and then the two wolves and two cobblers... so it is possible that more than a half of the votes given yesterDay were evil. And that indeed is a scary thought.

And who says Greenie is innocent as she writes seldomly and votes early? That's the safest position...Here I must defend her a little. She never is a loudmouth in these games. Yet she contributes, so why complain? Not all of us want to dedicate all of our free time to ww. And as for voting early, you know the deadline is 11pm our time and that she and I share a computer. She prefers to vote a bit earlier and then leave the computer for me for the last moments, while she goes and brushes her teeth etc so she can go to sleep as soon as I stop typing, but I still have all my pre-bedtime activities to do and get to go to sleep later than she does. I'd call her behaviour understandable - who would not like to go to sleep at 11pm if they have to wake up before 7am? (Granted, it is a good cover though if she's a wolf and I do not think her role affects whether she prefers voting and going to sleep earlier or later.)

Perhaps those who more consistently don't vote or are behind on the Days are less likely to be wolves, but just because someone isn't around or doesn't vote for one Day definitely doesn't lessen the possibilty of them being a wolf. I know when I was a wolf before I would sometimes have packmates that didn't show up and vote for whatever RL reasons (though usually it was only for one Day)...and those wolves tend to last longer because they so easily slip under the radar.I agree.

[Brinniel]

I'm heading off for bed (yes, extremely late I know), but before I go I just wanted to express that I'm most concerned about Durelin. Her posts toDay and yesterDay make me uneasy, and whether it's as a wolf or cobbler, I really think she's up to no good. I would elaborate, but I'm tired...so that'll have to wait until I wake up. Hopefully I won't oversleep... :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

Day 1

#8 Durelin on Nogrod
Heroes? What heroes?
All we have so far is some braincase trying to convince us that our inner demons killed two people, and a scruffy looking treasure hunter with a head too big for his fedora.Regular Day1 bantering, doesn't reveal anything.

#66 Dury on Nog
I really am finding it hard to even toss out random suspicions atm. I'm always for lynching the phantom, though. I say we give Nogrod a little time. Quite bold if they're fellow wolves, something unnecessary. Than again, there's nothing incriminating, so why not...?


Day2

#169 Dury on Noggie
I found myself disagreeing with Nogrod on several things already, which makes me feel we are on different sides...in this case meaning he is of an evil sort.
Nogrod feels bad to me. With all he said yesterDay and toDay about how it's only in the wolves best interest to try and get someone lynched other than Kitanna, yesterDay he developed his own quiet but consistent 'argument' for the lynching of Groin that basically boiled down to "he's quiet and isn't useful", being consistently Nogrod-ish but for show only. And yes, he voted for Groin. I had to go back and look, I couldn't remember at all who he voted for.
At this phase, it could be anything... but it's a little bold of her to accuse him even this much at this phase if they're indeed fellows as there had been other people suspecting him too...

#201 Dury on Noggie
I'm still looking at Nogrod.
Nothing to say.

#230 Dury on Noggie
I do feel a bit sorry for Nogrod, because no one seems to have understood his Day 1 role-playing at all. I don't suspect him for that...that was quite amusing. It's quite easy to use someone's role to get a person lynched, so I'm definitely wary of all the people harping on Nogrod's being cobblerish because of his role.
- says she still feels bad about him and has him on her baddie list -
I have this feeling like it's either Nogrod or phantom (which is very foolish, but there it is), and right now I think it's Nogrod. His arguments against phantom, though good, seem fabricated. They do not seem like pure Nogrod suspicion. He seems to be taking the easy route too much for him.
I find myself saying this again: they could be fellows, but in that case, they are quite bold. Although, one should note how she both defends and suspects him...

#233 Dury on Noggie
!!! - she votes him -
because he feels the worst. My brain tells me nasty things about others, but the most *feeling* is involved with him.
Now this is quite bold. Even though, she kind of drove herself to a point where she couldn't have voted anyone else without looking suspicious. It wasn't that risky to vote him as there really wasn't that much suspicion of him around, but then again, this was relatively early in the Day, and anything could have happened later...

#288 Nog on Dury
- he votes her -
As it seems to be Gwath I'll make a point.
Now, this is the perfect bold wolf retaliation.


Day3

#309 Nog on Dury
- just mentions her in a Mith-summary -
Well, obviously, this doesn't make us any wiser...

#316 Nog on Dury
- A Durylysis (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=565578&postcount=316). Basically, he concludes that making the analysis didn't make him any more or less suspicious of her. -
Like I said, what I find funny in the analysis is that it looks like he assumes she knows the other villagers' roles.

#320 Nog on Dury
But just coming back to one point on my "Durylysis". Now she said yesterDay that Mith is as good as a known innocent. And then Mith died the next Night.
Would she be that bold a wolf? I don't think so. It would be a mad gamble with no clear advantages to be won - so just sport.
Now this is the perfect thing to say about a fellow wolf. Also, a perfect excuse for stopping suspecting her. And lastly, I disagree with him about this pointing at Durelin's innocence. It really doesn't.

#325 Dury on Nog
- Explains (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=565590&postcount=325) herself to him. -
Nothing fishy here.

#350 Nog on Dury
- lists her as one of those he has "actually suspected in this game" -
Funny, because he really didn't that much. Okay, he went to do that analysis, but after that he didn't suspect her. So he didn't suspect her for a long time at any rate. Maybe half a Day or something like that.

#367Nog on Dury
Dury I'm now bending to look more like an innocent - or a cobbler the most (yeah Lommy, think what you think but you're still wrong with it). She wouldn't have pointed to Mith being "universally innocent" and then gone to kill her the next Night. As a cobbler she might have wished to point that to the wolves to be sure.A wolf could have pointed that out. Ha, actually it even makes sense for a wolf to do so: that is the perfect way of hiding some other reason to kill her, don't you think? And I don't really see why she couldn't just say that aloud and then in the Night realise she's the best kill.

#368 Dury on Nog
- agrees with Nog about Form -
Nothing fishy here, certainly, even though I'm tempted to interpret this as building grounds for a future alliance... ;)

#373 Dury on Nog
Nog feels evil.
Wow, she's pretty strong about it. Maybe my theory doesn't make sense?

#380 Dury on Nog
++Fea
toDay, Nog maybe tomorrow.
Could be playing it safe for a mate, could be just voting someone that has a chance to get lynched.


Day4

#401 Dury on Nog
I feel that Nogrod and Kath aren't [innocent].
Pretty vehement, isn't it? On the other hand, it might look suspicious if she dropped it...

#403 Dury on Nog
What do you think of Kath, Nog?
Interesting...

#410 Nogrod on Durelin
- replies to her question -
Dury was indeed voting safe... indeed the "safest" of us all as there had been talk about voting Fea and some people agreeing and she just began it for real. That's a good place for a wolf.
Although I still think Dury's remark on Mith's general innocence makes her more an innocent than a wolf.
Could be anything, really. I still find it interesting how he balances between suspecting her and trusting her...

#412 Nogrod on Durelin
So I'd really look at that Fea-waggon with that in mind. I supplied the wood but the ignition was a responsibility of four (Dury, Brinn, Lommy and me).
Yeah...

#414 Nogrod on Durelin
- mentions her as one of those who has voted every Day and says those people are the most suspicious -
Again, he's balancing... I didn't get the point of this argument anyway...

#415 Nogrod on Durelin
Dury and Brinn?
It would fit many schemes... not the least yesterDay's action.
Just a gut-feeling. I'll try to look at it after I've slept and had a full day's work...What a better idea than suggest your fellow is in cahoots with someone else...


Conclusion: The relationship between them is rather interesting. Durelin suspects and attacks Nogrod from rather early on and never drops it. Nogrod starts suspecting her at the end of Day2, then makes a case on Day3, finds a piece of evidence that "proves" her innocence and drops his suspicion, but still kind of continues suspecting her.

I don't really know what to make of it. If they're fellows, they are rather bold. I think they could be, but it feels a bit far-fetched. All in all, Nogrod behaves as if Dury could be his fellow, but she doesn't behave like he could be her fellow.

But there is something odd in there. I don't think they're both innocent. I think it's either that Durelin is a cobbler who thinks Nogrod is innocent and is therefore trying to get him lynched. Or then, Nogrod is a wolf and he's just treating innocent Durelin that way. I can't explain it, but his behaviour towards her looks a little like a wolf treating an innocent who suspects him...


edit: xed with Brinniel

[Nerwen]

Good analysis, Lommy. Yes, those two could bear watching.



However...

Like I said, what I find funny in the analysis is that it looks like he assumes she knows the other villagers' roles.

Meaning this?–

(posted by Nogrod)She suspects Gwath (seer) for "a good bit of back-and-forth-ing" and Lalaith (innocent) as her ""fishy" comment feels like an easy stir up of things".

You may be reading too much into it.

[Thinlómien]

However...
Meaning this?–
You may be reading too much into it.I know. But I still find it a little weird.

[Nogrod]

Thanks Lommy for the most enlightening analysis as what comes to Dury. It kind of helps me a bit with making of my mind with her. But I'm going to look at her myself as well.

To cut a long story short and to answer your musings then: I've felt bad with her from her early attacks on me on. Then I finally decided to see whether there was something else than just my bad feeling of her attacking me consistently and with very forcibly made arguments (if there were any). The "Durylysis" didn't help me much but didn't "free" her either. The "Mith is universally innocent" -thing made me doubt her guilt but thanks to you I'm getting over it - and kind of was getting over it already last night (RL) when I started thinking about Dury and Brinn as possibe mates in crime...

I mean I hadn't thought of this before: And I don't really see why she couldn't just say that aloud and then in the Night realise she's the best kill.
That would make sense indeed.

[Durelin]

Oh, Nog...you just seem so darned evil.

very forcibly made arguments (if there were any)

No one can really criticize me, because I don't think we've lynched a person yet based on any real arguments. It's all been "oh, they look like..." or "they feel..." I don't know how many people have voted for someone after actually making a case.

Why? For me it's because I've lacked the energy. I just started classes yesterday and that two people dropped from the game kinda killed some of my energy.

I only make a good wolf or cobbler in this game. I am absolutely terrible at spotting wolves. I don't even know how exactly you spot wolves. But last game a I really felt Nog was innocent after a bit, and this game I've really felt he's evil. I don't know how to explain it, though Lommy's analysis of his interactions and analysis of me makes me suspect him more. Hah, yes, maybe it's just cause he has 'suspected' me off and on.

It feels to me that Nog has been playing up the *help the village* thing this game, and I think he does that as a wolf. He tries to point out things that will help the village and this looks familiar to me:

Hooray for the cobbler-assassin!

Ridiculous to call out? Maybe, but I got called out for a "Yay!" after the first wolf was lynched when I was a wolf one game, so I figure I might as well... :p

[Thinlómien]

I make an analysis of Durelin and Nogrod, and what does it cause? They attack each other even more forcefully... This is madness. Are you two sure you aren't both cobblers? :D

[Durelin]

I'm really not, I just suck at being good. ><

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have to vote within the hour.

And I'm still looking at Phantom.

[Thinlómien]

I have to vote within the hour.

And I'm still looking at Phantom.
Are you a cobbler too? ;) :p

[Durelin]

Cobblers: Shasta and Kath
Wolves: Nogrod and Brinniel or Greenie

I'll have to vote in about an hour and a half because I then have class until after the deadline.

I'll try and actually talk about other people besides Nog before that....

[Nerwen]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDay

[Thinlómien]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDayActually, we don't have to. We'd just better do so because we haven't killed a single wolf yet and it's already Day4... This is starting to get almost depressing...

[Nerwen]

Almost depressing???

[Nogrod]

Good to see something happening.

It feels to me that Nog has been playing up the *help the village* thing this game, and I think he does that as a wolf. He tries to point out things that will help the villageDo you mean that when I'm innocent I try to get the village in trouble? :)

Oh my reading through and looking at several persons at the same time really takes time -at least from me. I'm only through Day1 now. Just as prelimnary points I'd say that Nerwen and Shasta look good. Of Greenie, Brinn and Dury it's harder to say: there are things drawing on different directions. I hope the later Days give me some more to go.

[Thinlómien]

Almost depressing???:D:D Well, depressing really, but I'm in a good mood otherwise, so I can't be depressed, so that's why the "almost" was in there... :D Besides, I guess I have to admit this is almost amusing because this is going so disastrously... I mean, often it feels like the village was just full of cobblers.

edit: xed with Nog

[Durelin]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDay

Okay... So who should we vote for? :Merisu:

[Nogrod]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDayExactly. Our numbers are still good what comes to the victory-conditions but if we lynch an innocent and lose one during the Night with no assassination then toMorrow there will be four votes wishing us make the wrong decisions and only four to counter that. And two of those ill-wishers will know each other.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Phantom even says he suspected Form "for two days". As we all know, Phantom loves to assume that the gifted do what he suggests. So when Form didn't die the first night via Cobbler-Assassin, he was a perfect scapegoat for Phantom-wolf to try and save Fea, even if it did look forced.

...That made so much more sense in the shower...

Maybe I'm just illiterate of a morning. Ugh. I've rethought and decided Phantom might be a wolf, and not just a cobbler.

++ Phantom

Must dash. Probably won't be around again today. If I am, it'll be for about five minutes snagged on a library computer. :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

A throw into the discussion...

Brinn seems to be very considerate and she plays smoothly but there is something I'm pretty worried about in her fluency. If she and tp were the wolves it would explain a lot - like her encounters / speculation about him in #192 and #193. (Yes I had almost forgotten how bad tp looks on Day2... must be his good explanations on Day3 which I have not yet reached.)

Btw. I need to take a break as I haven't yet eaten anything today but I will be continuing my slow process of working through this whole thread (I'm on post #201 right now).

[the phantom]

Nog- as far as your points about non-voters, I'd say that I agree that WWs always like to vote. However they could purposefully not vote in order to be dismissed. And seeing as the leading vote-getters Day 1 and Day 3 have been proven to be non-WWs, there was really no need for them to vote. Just something to keep in mind.

Shasta- I'm thinking Cobbler rather than WW. He'd be much more careful if he was a WW. He made arguments that made little sense early in the day, and when I smacked them down forcefully he didn't even respond. And now he shows up and makes another gem of a post which is once again faulty at best, if not actually full of evil intent.
Phantom even says he suspected Form "for two days".
Yep, I did.
As we all know, Phantom loves to assume that the gifted do what he suggests.
Obviously, there is no possible way anyone can know what in the world a gifted is going to do. I make suggestions, and make logical generalizations, but I rarely assume that they will do exactly as I wish. Rather I fear that they haven't done what I'd wish.
he was a perfect scapegoat for Phantom-wolf to try and save Fea
Erm... He was the only person I could vote for to save Fea. If you'll recall, no one else had any votes. Kath was who I actually wanted to lynch yesterday, but she didn't attract votes.
...That made so much more sense in the shower...
I guess you had to be there.
:rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

Phantom even says he suspected Form "for two days". As we all know, Phantom loves to assume that the gifted do what he suggests. So when Form didn't die the first night via Cobbler-Assassin, he was a perfect scapegoat for Phantom-wolf to try and save Fea, even if it did look forced.Hmmm... why would a wolf-phantom want to save an ordo-Fea any more than an ordo-phantom would like to save her? Shasta's logic really makes me raise my eyebrows, but I think he still seems rather innocent.

edit: xed with Nog and tp

[the phantom]

Exactly. Our numbers are still good what comes to the victory-conditions but if we lynch an innocent and lose one during the Night with no assassination then toMorrow there will be four votes wishing us make the wrong decisions and only four to counter that.
Indeed. The current count of 8-2 doesn't seem that bad, but if no WWs or Cobblers are killed during this Day/Night cycle then suddenly our plight seems rather desperate.
I'm really not, I just suck at being good.
So you feel more at home as an evil doer, eh? If we ever have a massive Barrow-Downs get together remind me to keep an eye on Dur. She might steal our things and beat us up. :D

[Durelin]

I'm just better at causing mayhem than actually being insightful. :p

Hmmm... why would a wolf-phantom want to save an ordo-Fea any more than an ordo-phantom would like to save her? Shasta's logic really makes me raise my eyebrows, but I think he still seems rather innocent.

Well, it could be about making himself look better. He knows she's not a wolf at least, and maybe doesn't suspect her to be a cobbler, so... But I don't think that works in this situation.

I'd like to think we can use the knowledge that Form was indeed a cobbler to our advantage. I'd also like to think that knowing that the wolves did not think Mith was a cobbler is helpful in some way, but probably not (you could argue from that that the wolves actually did think that only a innocent would put forward the Kitanna lynching idea). Can how a person treated Form tell us anything?

I think I want to look at Nerwen more closely, because her last couple posts where all she does is warn us against frivolous votes and says that things are depressing really bother me. I don't get it. And I can see her having fun with something like that.

Looking over her posts, she mostly seems to respond to people, acting sometimes as a mediator, explaining to people what others have said about them if they are confused/'upset' by it. (I've seen her do that outside WW, but I don't think that means anything.) At least she's done it a couple times. And what else...she dropped a little bomb about how she actually was thinking Lalaith might be the seer on Day 1. Interesting. There's really not much. Her votes have been for Kitanna (she seemed neutral-ish about the Kitanna lynch, didn't really think it was a great idea but didn't really fight it, didn't want to vote Gwath) and Lommy. Her reason for voting Lommy:

Yes, she's a bit strange, somehow...

So I wonder why she's reminding everyone against frivolous votes. :rolleyes: Yes, that was back on Day 2, but...

Then she says this about Mith:

but then so are you, Mith.

*shrugs*

Anyway, surely Mac-mod wouldn't let Nogrod and Nerwen be wolves together again without me! :D

Hmm, I guess I have time to look at someone else...woohoo...

Edit: Aw darn, was mixing up games. My stupid joke is even more stupid.^^

[Durelin]

Kath really hasn't said much...really. Usually she has a very small post count, but also usually there is more to her posts. Yes, she's said she's playing a new style and she has seemed to be quite busy. Anyway, I do agree with what she said on Day 2 about not underestimating cobblers. I think to many people have done that, including myself.

She was the first to vote for Lommy on Day 2. She was followed by Mith and then Nerwen. I don't know what Lommy is and of course that was when we lynched our seer. Nerwen's vote just feels like it's positioned strangely most likely because it followed a cobbler's and ooh, bandwagon! As if it isn't a bandwagon even that gets a wolf lynched.

So back to Nogrod for a moment, mwahaha! He suspects me because I suspect him, but he doesn't suspect Lommy because she suspects both of us, and he says he always suspects Kath and she always suspects him except that neither of them have done much suspecting of each other at all, except mentioning that they always suspect each other.

I think the only reason Nogrod was wishy-washy on his suspicion of me was because he was wondering if I was a cobbler... :p

I want to look at Brinniel and Greenie, but I just don't have time...yes, I picked Nerwen and Kath because they have been quiet-ish so there's less to go through...I had a very early class and soon I must leave to go to class for the next 3 hours so...

Anyway, I'm not going to worry about being completely wrong as I usually am and go with someone who the majority seems to think they might vote for like I did with Fea (of course at this point I have no idea who the majority might vote for...really it may be me), and just vote.

++Nogrod

Surprised?

[Kath]

Durelin, I'm quite pleased that you think my posts usually contain anything helpful. Generally I get condemned for merely analysing. :rolleyes: I am playing a different style and it is far more fun. Clearly not very accurate though as I was totally wrong on Fea. However, given that, I still think our main suspects must lie in the last minute flurry of voting that ended up with her death. That's not to say though that they must be those who voted for her. I think it's likely, but there were others there.

Now, you can probably see where I'm going with this and that's back to phantom. I see I have an ally here in Shasta, but I wish I didn't because his arguments and reasoning are just bizarre. phantom wanted to save Fea, hardly a surprise. To save Fea he voted Form, again not a surprise as he's insisted Form is a cobbler for some time. I don't understand what Shasta has taken from this. What I take from it is that phantom played a very nice double blind and is a wolf.

Apart from all that Nog is firmly on my radar now. Going back over the voting I found that quote in which he basically says 'tell me who to vote for' and also, in saying he might be willing to lynch Fea, made a bandwagon more likely. I'm not sure though whether he'd be wolf or cobbler.

That's what I'm thinking right now. I may have to vote a little early and if I do it will be for one of those two.

[the phantom]

What I take from it is that phantom played a very nice double blind and is a wolf.
Now that is reasoning I can live with. You are saying that I as a WW would try and get a Cobbler lynched to save an innocent all as a huge bluff. I'd say that at that point in the game with all four Cobblers still around that it would indeed be within the realm of possibility for something I would do.

But, Kath, I think you can agree though that I certainly would not have killed Mith-Cobbler. Especially with her helping me the way she was.

[Nogrod]

Ahh Dury! You manage to surprise me Day after Day! :rolleyes:

Going back over the voting I found that quote in which he basically says 'tell me who to vote for' Yes I did - or at least I said: please be a little more open with your intentions. I mean it's totally insane if we have something like 15 minutes to go - or ten... or five... or two - and you have no idea whom people are going to vote as they all hide in the shadows saying nothing and if they post they just rant this or that. Surely I like to vote those I suspect but if the possible lynchees are totally against my preferences I'd like to be able to make a difference and fex. try to save someone I think is less guilty or be able to affect the lynching of the one I feel more guilty. That I find very important indeed.

and also, in saying he might be willing to lynch Fea, made a bandwagon more likely.Absolutely. I was driving for her lynching indeed. And I felt pretty secure she was up to no good. And I was wrong. Funny you make that point now as I've said this two times already... (just tells us how much you concentrate eg. I don't think you're a wolf) :)


I'll try to go back to my mammouth-scale read-through. Let's see if I'm able to learn anything from there.

[A Little Green]

Here at last. It's nice to see people actually debating (especially as I don't do it myself...) :p

And who says Greenie is innocent as she writes seldomly and votes early? I'm sorry for that. I think Lommy already gave a reasonable explanation for why I vote early. As to why I post seldom, well, I have to study (surprise, surprise) and happen to share the computer with another person who plays werewolf as well and needs to post. ToDay I've been even more uncontributing than usual, I only came home from school two hours ago and had to eat and let Lommy finish being on the computer and read the whole Day through... I'll try to be more active toMorrow.

He suspects me because I suspect him, but he doesn't suspect Lommy because she suspects both of us, and he says he always suspects Kath and she always suspects him except that neither of them have done much suspecting of each other at all, except mentioning that they always suspect each other. Huh?

This whole Nog-Dury -affair looks very weird and I definitely want to think on it a little more. On the other hand, I'm pretty angry at myself that I only think of those two now when I actually should think about who's a wolf and who isn't, and I find it very probable that at least one of the wolves is keeping a low profile.

YesterDay's voting was bad, honestly. I can't dismiss the thought that a majority of the votes given yesterDay could have been baddies' votes and that really is something I don't want repeated.

Back with a look on the remaining villagers...


EDIT: x-ed with Noggins

[Nogrod]

But, Kath, I think you can agree though that I certainly would not have killed Mith-Cobbler. Especially with her helping me the way she was.I'd say this is the strongest possible argument in favour of tp being innocent. Not because she helped him - the "help" might have even annoyed him indeed were he a wolf - but I just don't think he would have killed Mith during the Night. And that goes for the very same reason he wanted to save Fea whatever her role was - which he couldn't have known in any case.

[A Little Green]

The villagers.

Shasta - I still don't have a read on him. His theories do seem quite far-fetched but I don't know whether it's to be read as wolvery or cobblery or innocence. :rolleyes:
Eönwë - I think he might well be an under-the-radar wolf. Then again, I can't be sure of him since I remember very little of what he has said. I should have a look at him and will if I have the time.
Nerwen - I still categorise her as innocentish because she seems as much.
Kath - The consensus seems to be that she's a cobbler. I think she isn't. I think the cobbler assassin might have checked her the night people expected him/her to take Form. Or am I mixing the days up? I'm really too lazy and tired to check...
Dury - Feels innocent, though not as much as before. She might be a cobbler, but I don't think she is a wolf.
Brinn - Under my reindeer, my first impression is a vague "she usually makes sense". Should have a look on her, though..
Nog - He could be anything. No idea.
Greenie - Me!! (Woo hoo.) I'm no wolf. Nor a cobbler, for that matter. Definitely not.
the phantom - YesterDay I was pretty sure he was just a bored innocent. ToDay I have the feeling that he might well be a wolf...
Lommy - I never suspect her. Never. My gut says once again that she is innocent but maybe I should check her. Gah. Too lazy.

So who, then, could be the wolves? Eönwë and phantom? Or maybe cuddly little Lommy? Brinn? Nog? Shasta? I'm too confused. Don't know...


EDIT: x-ed with Noggins again! Hooray!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Or it could be Shasta coming down from the Gifted-high he had last game back to regularlarly-scheduled ordo-ness. :rolleyes:

Snagged a library computer. What I'm saying, Phantom, is that your vote yesterday for Form was almost as if you knew you couldn't save Fea and were just going through the motions for effect.

And you do too like to assume, via the gifteds. What was that just the other day? "I assume Gwath dreamt of Mith and Groin, so let's all go with that"? :p

Edit: X'd with Nog and Greenie... Nog reminds me that a lot of my play this game is based off people, not roles, which is why I may seem "far-fetched". :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

was almost as if you knew you couldn't save Fea
How could anyone possibly know that she couldn't be saved? As I've said twice already, it only would've taken one single vote to do it.
And you do too like to assume, via the gifteds. What was that just the other day? "I assume Gwath dreamt of Mith and Groin, so let's all go with that"?
Well, duh, because we knew precisely who the Seer was and he had left clues behind as to who he had chosen for his dreams. :rolleyes:

My "assumption" was more or less statement of revealed fact.

Your reasoning continues to be perplexingly off, Shasta. You're pretty much screaming "I'm a Cobbler" at this point.

[Eönwë]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDay

You know, when I first read that, I read "Just a reindeer". Must be all this subsitution of "radar" for the above mentioned creature of the North.

[A Little Green]

So, we have a bit less than one and a half hours to go, and I am very lost. I felt much more on trace yesterDay. There are of course plenty of things I should look at if I had the energy.

I think this debate between Shasta and phantom is really quite silly - Shasta throws weird points against tp who retaliates by stating that Shasta is not reasoning well and is therefore a cobbler.



And you do too like to assume, via the gifteds. What was that just the other day? "I assume Gwath dreamt of Mith and Groin, so let's all go with that"?
Well, duh, because we knew precisely who the Seer was and he had left clues behind as to who he had chosen for his dreams.

My "assumption" was more or less statement of revealed fact. Oh but this reasoning is quite weird as well - I don't think we can take for certain that Mith and Groin were the ones Gwath dreamt of. I understand that this issue is already debated but I felt the need to point out that only because the majority thought it to be so it doesn't mean that it actually was that way.
I can understand Shasta's annoyance with phantom's manner but I think he (Shasta) is taking it a bit too far.. And phantom isn't making it any better with that "those who disagree with me do so because they are stupid" -attitude. :D


EDIT: x-ed with Eönwë

[A Little Green]

Just a reminder: no frivolous voting now. We really have to get a baddie toDay
You know, when I first read that, I read "Just a reindeer". Must be all this subsitution of "radar" for the above mentioned creature of the North. Haha :D

I'll have to think for a while now of who to vote. No analysis from me toDay after all - too tired and too lazy. Back with a vote and (hopefully) some clearer thoughts. I'll really really try to find more time and energy for werewolf toMorrow if I'm still alive.

[Kath]

Alright, I need to vote now.

++NOGROD

I was determined that it was to be phantom but he just has to go and make a reasonable point. I'm going to look at that Mith thing very, very carefully.

[Eönwë]

Greenie has got a point. The phantom/Shasta is quite odd. Both based on assumptions which the other plainly disagrees with and argues back with even more assumptions. Wel, obviously some of each person's points made sense and were backed up, but some were just things to throw at the other.

Now, I'm not saying that one of them is a wolf, but there is a chance that one may be a cobbler (But you never know with tp). Anyway, of the two, phantom does raise better points, but still, he is assuming too much.

edit: x-ed with Kath

[Nogrod]

I've re-read everything but toDay looking at the few people I have had very little to say this far (+ re-reading Dury once again).

From that I learned that Nerwen and Shasta look pretty good. But a few reservations should be made.

Like someone already said, Nerwen isn't too open with her suspicions and her votes may be little "out of the sun" with little or no backing. It could be a good wolf-policy to look like "lady-reason" in what comes to general matters or pointing problems in other's arguments but being careful not to reveal one's own intentions.

Shasta has been very good and innocent looking & feeling up to toDay. ToDay I find his reasoning and the fervour with which he tries to engage with tp quite odd. Even if I have to say tp hasn't been too good either with his kind of over-reacting and some minor flips he has made (like the one concerning Mith who "helped" him as a reason not to kill her were he a wolf etc...).

Greenie looks possibly the most innocent of those I read again. Although her strict sticking to voting Gwath in Days 1 and 2 could be a methodical wolf-cover and voting Form yesterDay was an easy vote as well. Perfect wolf-covers then. But I wouldn't vote her, at least now, because otherwise she looks sharp and innocentish.

The rest in a few minutes (need to think about them a little before saying anything).

[the phantom]

Shasta throws weird points against tp who retaliates by stating that Shasta is not reasoning well and is therefore a cobbler.
So you admit that his points are weird.

Thank you. That is exactly the point of my retaliations- making it clear to everyone how fishy Shasta is being. I'm glad that we agree on that.
I don't think we can take for certain that Mith and Groin were the ones Gwath dreamt of.
If by "for certain" you mean bet our lives on it, then no, of course not. But I'd wager a nice sum of money on it. It is a fact that Gwath knew he was the Seer and knew his words would be looked at for clues should he die. As I've said before villages might as well not even have Seers if people aren't going to try and trust their words.
And phantom isn't making it any better with that "those who disagree with me do so because they are stupid" -attitude.
See, now you're putting words into my mouth.

And you're disagreeing with me, stupid! :D

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's see the votes so far (not many, but still):

Shasta: tp
Dury: Nog
Kath: Nog (2)

[Nogrod]

Ahh, Kath. So now everything is in the normal order... :confused:

[Brinniel]

I said I would share some of my earlier thoughts on Durelin, so I will:

Ooh, look at the attention I'm getting. Seriously, though...I never get this much attention when I'm actually a wolf... :p
This comment actually reminds me of something Aganzir said when she was a wolf. Such a statement can easily make someone rethink their suspicions, especially when what's been said was true in the past. But it doesn't mean it's true this time. The statement is a perfect excuse for a wolf to say "don't lynch me."

Later...her vote for Fea. Durelin voted her first which at first glance may make her seem less guilty, but Fea was already talked about as a candidate...she just seemed to be very much an opportunist there.

I still feel Lommy and Shasta are innocent.

I feel that Nogrod and Kath aren't.

I think Greenie might be evil.

I don't know about Brinniel or phantom.

These one line statements are odd...I don't know what to think of them.

What do you think of Kath, Nog?
Why is it so important for her to know his opinion?

And then her attacks on Nogrod after he attacks her...what to think about that? Would a Durelin-wolf so strongly go after an innocent Nogrod? (And the same thing could be said vice versa.) Is it really that possible that both could be wolves? On a Day that either one could be lynched...I just don't know.

Maybe Durelin isn't a wolf, but just a cobbler. Either way, I don't think her intentions are good.

[Thinlómien]

I'm back here... and for a change, I'm not too sure who to vote.

I could vote Nog or Durelin. (Although I'm not too happy with the Nog-wagon as it stands. It looks too much like a bandwagon.) I could vote Kath too. I'm pretty confident at least one of them is evil in at least some way. :rolleyes: Nogrod feels most wolvish and most innocent. Kath and Durelin feel pretty cobbleirsh, Durelin more so of the two. But it's difficult... aaargh.

edit: xed with Brinny

[A Little Green]

Argh, I really think we shouldn't concentrate on Dury and Nog too much... Oh I realised I must vote soon and still have no idea. Somehow Brinn's latest seems a bit wolvish to me. Can't say why...

I'll vote soon. Really.


EDIT: x-ed with no one? Honestly, where is everyone? :eek:

[Nogrod]

The "Nog bandwagon" :) consists of votes of one cobbler and one wolf - or then two cobblers. I'm getting a bad feeling about that being the case.

Well, the good news is that idf I'm right and the four manage to get me lynched (with possible help of some innocents) you know then what to do toMorrow / the c-a the next Night.

But really, Kath posts first like tp is her main suspect but she then votes for me. Secondly her playing style would fit a cobbler-role more than nicely. Let's keep others guessing until they have to "waste" a lynch on her when critical moments come. Well played - and that's what I expect from Kath anyhow.

Dury I'm more and more uneasy with.

[Brinniel]

Who should I vote for toDay?

Candidates:
Durelin- still seems like a wolf or cobbler to me, but which?
Thinlómien- While I don't find her overly suspicious, she has been slipping under my radar which worries me.
Nogrod- I always feel inclined to trust him since he's so helpful and that's bad for me to do. I wonder if perhaps his suggestion to vote Fea yesterDay was actually something sinister...and I still don't know what to think about him and Durelin going at each other.
the phantom- He remains such a big mystery to me...and because of that I'm constantly worried about him. I don't think there's a huge chance of me voting him toDay, but he's definitely someone I still want to really watch.

Not:
Kath- Is either an innocent or cobbler. But I don't think a wolf.
Shastanis Althreduin- While some of his reasoning is off, it looks more like the reasoning of an innocent. Maybe it's more of a gut feeling than anything...but I don't think he's evil.
Nerwen- I'm less certain about her, but she seems less suspicious toDay so I don't have any reason to vote her.
A Little Green- I found her suspicious at first, but these last couple Days she's been looking more and more innocent.
Eönwë- I still think he's innocent. His behaviour seems innocentish.

EDIT: X-ed with Nogrod

[the phantom]

As far as voting, I'm feeling a bit better about Kath today, so I'm not as anxious to lynch her.

Shasta would probably be my first preference. I do worry that some of it is personal, but the fact remains that his comments have been rather baffling, which makes me think of a Cobbler.

As far as the Nog versus Durelin battle that has been brewing, I really don't know what to do.

Nog I feel is the most likely to be innocent. If guilty I'd say he's a WW rather than a Cobbler.

I'm slightly more suspicious of Durelin than I am of Nog, but if she's not evil I feel her as being the more likely of the two to be gifted.

Remember when I said this yesterday-
The person who I feel the most strongly is something other than a Cobbler might well be the Assassin, so I don't want to make a WW case against them naturally.
That was Dur that I was speaking of. But at this point I think it's safe to say it. First, because she looks like she might be a candidate so if I don't say it now it's never. Second, because I've actually moved her out of my top spot on the likely Assassin list. After today I'm leaning towards thinking someone different is the Assassin. Not saying who, naturally.

[A Little Green]

The "Nog bandwagon" consists of votes of one cobbler and one wolf - or then two cobblers. I'm getting a bad feeling about that being the case.

Well, the good news is that idf I'm right and the four manage to get me lynched (with possible help of some innocents) you know then what to do toMorrow / the c-a the next Night.This is very wolvish. I don't know whether I should vote for him after all. His reaction that the ones who vote for him are wolves or cobblers seems furry. The whole post screams "Look look I'm just a poor little Nog and the baddies are trying to kill me! (And if you vote for me you are a baddie. Therefore you shouldn't do so! *wink wink*)" :D

Oh yes, I know I'm grasping at straws now. But there's little else to grasp at...

[A Little Green]

Gah, I want to go to sleep.

++ Shasta

After all, I decided to go after the under-the-radar person I feel most uncomfortable with. Let's hope for the best.

Good night! :)

[Durelin]

Got out of class early...

Well, you don't have to worry, phantom, I am not the assassin, though I wish I was. It's been too long since I've been just a plain old ordo, so I am out of practice with this lost feeling...

Anyway.

The "Nog bandwagon" consists of votes of one cobbler and one wolf - or then two cobblers.

:D This doesn't seem self-righteous at all... :D

[Nogrod]

As far as the Nog versus Durelin battle that has been brewing, I really don't know what to do.A "battle"?

I think our cobblers (and/or wolves) are doing a nice work here. Suddenly everyone seems to think there is a Battle... and if Dury happens to be innocent - which I'm not easily believing - the better performance from the baddies.

But yes, at this moment I'm both ready and willing to check out Dury or to rid us from the cobbler-Kath.

And btw. tp funny you should feel better about Kath the instant she lifts you off the hook... ;)

I mean if Dury is not a wolf (or a cobbler) I'd really suggest we (you) go on checking Mr. phantom for good.

And even if I kind of tend to trust Brinn her posts #192 and #193 are quite interesting - not forgetting that she had started already on Day1 underlining that tp is no wolf but could be a cobbler to be sure.


Ahh, you see, fear of death makes your tongue sing... :)

Oh yes, I know I'm grasping at straws now.Exactly that. And that doesn't exactly make you look more innocent indeed even if I'm not too assured about your bad intentions either.

[Eönwë]

15 minutes left and I still have no idea who to vote...:confused:

edit: make that 10.

[Durelin]

if Dury happens to be innocent - which I'm not easily believing

That was fast, Nog...just yesterDay you were so confused...what happened? Have enough people convinced that it's safe to proceed full-on?

[Thinlómien]

15 minutes left and I still have no idea who to vote...:confused:Sounds familiar... although, I have some idea. Like three candidates. But I have hard time deciding which on to vote... Nogrod is really confusing me with this last-minute frenzy of his...

edit: xed with Durelin who makes a fair point about Nog

[Nogrod]

This doesn't seem self-righteous at all... :DWell, all I know is that you two are threathening my life in a very concrete manner and being an innocent villager I can't but see a sinister purpose behind your actions... And losing a single innocent villager is bad now (remember the number of cobblers around).

So your intentions are bad for the village.

So you are either misled ordos or baddies.

And as we have to lynch someone I'd say we try you in hope of the second one being the correct answer.

[Thinlómien]

Why is everybody so silent? Where are all the votes? Are we again going to vote in a disastrous last-minute frenzy?

[Durelin]

Then we are in exactly the same position, Nog. And if you are innocent, which you very well may be because I have trouble trusting my judgment (as I said, I don't even know how this 'wolf-spotting' is actually supposed to work), then I will feel so horribly stupid that it will be sufficient revenge, I promise. :D

[Brinniel]

I could either vote for Durelin or Nogrod. Both are making me uncomfortable right now.

[Nogrod]

xed with Durelin who makes a fair point about NogWhat? A fair point?

Now that is the most cobblerish / wolvish thing to say... I mean really Lommy?

That was fast, Nog...just yesterDay you were so confused...what happened? Have enough people convinced that it's safe to proceed full-on?I have suspected you from your malicious vote from Day1 on. I have hesitated though as we innocents need to be careful not to let our personal feelings of retaliation etc. to come and distract our sense. The Mith-stuff quite confused me for a while but after I realised toDay that was not a case on your behalf there was no more need to be afraid of saying aloud what I think - or to think that way in the first place.

I mean an ordo needs to halt if he thinks there is a major point against your suspicions because thwen you might vote / suggest bad.

[the phantom]

last-minute frenzy
Yeah, that's been the norm in this village.

I have to wonder- how many of you usually wait till the last minute? Myself- I've always been a very late voter if at all possible in most every village I've been in. Are you all the same? Or are we seeing some unusual behavior?

[Thinlómien]

I could either vote for Durelin or Nogrod. Both are making me uncomfortable right now.That's too funny, you know. I feel the same. Yet, they're kind of either or choice, if you know what I mean.

(Wow, that was pretty intelligent. :D)

Anyway, what I'm going to do toMorrow (provided that I'm alive) is urge Nerwen and Eönwë to talk more and pay more attention to Brinn and the phantom.

edit: xed with Nog and tp

[Nogrod]

I could either vote for Durelin or Nogrod. Both are making me uncomfortable right now.Like a vulture on the carcass... :eek:

EDIT: you too Lommy...

[Brinniel]

Hmm....not much time left:

++Durelin

Because she just can't be up to any good. She's gotta be either a wolf or a cobbler.

[Eönwë]

Nogrod sounded so wolfish in that last post that I think I'll vote him. I still have 4 minutes to decide, though.:D

[Nerwen]

Hi all–

Just been skimming the thread.

I'm inclining towards Nogrod right now, though Durelin and Shasta are also possibilities.

[Thinlómien]

Ok Nogrod's getting really jumpy....

tp - it isn't a time for that chat right now!! - speaking of which yes, I'm a late-voter... ;)

And aieee I should decide...

edit: xed with Shasta and Nerwen

[Eönwë]

Ok, that's it:

++Nogrod

[Nogrod]

++ Durelin

[Thinlómien]

++ Nogrod

No time to think, he was jumpy and Dury's ordo-talk seems credible enough for now...

[Macalaure]

Deadline.

[Brinniel]

Yeesh..vote people! It's deadline!

EDIT: Wow...they just all came at once...

[Nogrod]

Run you fools... :(

[the phantom]

Well, seeing as Shasta isn't a possibility.

+ + Durelin

For looking less innocent than Nog. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

What?! How was my post at 3:02?

I swear that when I hit reply the Downs clock at the bottom of the screen said 2:59, and it didn't take me that long to type that! :mad: