WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Nogrod]

I'm usually not into off the wall conspiracy theories, but Nerwen still being alive at this is scary.As I agree with this, wondering still why the mutineer let her live and vote toDay (and especially not to be voted toDay eg. narrowing the choices to two: the mutineer and the other one), I still think we need to remind ourselves of the fact that has been voiced afew times but nit I think too lately.

If Greenie is a spy-impostor the real-seer would know that (Greenie was killed already on Night1!) and even if s/he got killed / lynched without being able to warn us beforehand, it would be totally outrageous, reckless and irresponsible for her/him not to come forwards afterwards claiming her/his role...

So Nerwen basically can't be a mutineer.

It leaves Gwath and Izzy.

I've thought Gwath quite a lot lately as you see and think it's more probable he's not a mutineer than that he is. Nothing's certain in WW of course, but...

That would leave Izzy. Basically because I have no good case against her being a mutineer - like I have with the two others.

EDIT: X'd with the fellow-gunner

[Nogrod]

Basically I'm saying Gwath not being mod-fired should not 'prove' whether he is am mutineer or notAgreed. And not only "should not", but also "doesn't".

[Inziladun]

Depending on what Gwath has to say, I think I would be leaning torward Izzy being the best choice today.
Nerwen's innocence, almost from the beginning of the game, has been contingent upon whether Greenie's seer claim was legitimate. As no one, even after death has come forward to contest that claim, I can't imagine Nerwen as a Mutineer.
Gwath, as others have said, should give an account of his absence, but it's difficult for me to believe he's a Mutineer either. Missing so many votes would seem to have deprived the good side of an adequate chance to get a good read on him if he's evil.
Which leaves Izzy, who appears to have done all in her power to look consistently suspicious. Cobbler seemed more likely to me for a long time, but process of elimination leads to the conclusion she would be the vote for me today.

x'd with Nogrod

[Macalaure]

Gwath:

Why would wolf-Gwath not kill Nerwen? His strategy would clearly have been to capitalise on the Nerwen-Izzy animosity. He just needed one of them to do the wrong thing. However, with Shasta and Izzy alive, because of the unlikeliness of Nerwen being lynched, I think the chance of one doing the wrong thing would be higher.


Izzy:

Izzy would need a lot of confidence to make Gwath vote Nerwen, but that could be the only reason to keep Nerwen alive. Of course Nerwen might vote Gwath, but the whole situation looks much easier with Gwath and Shasta alive.
It is in her favour that she's regarded as a cobbler - it makes her a bit more secure of being voted while looking bad, but that doesn't affect the desirability of the two scenarios.


Nerwen:

Is it possible that Nerwen is a wolf after all? In that case, the real seer must either have made a ridiculous blunder, or is still alive, which would mean that Izzy is the real seer, even though she claims it's not so. However, wolf-Nerwen would have suspected Izzy of being the real seer a long time ago - so why is Izzy still alive?


Of course, both wolf-Izzy or wolf-Gwath could have thought that Nerwen is a cobbler.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Question: Was Gwath "gone" when there was a no-kill?

[Macalaure]

I started to analyse Lommy’s behaviour towards Eonwe, Gwath, Izzy, and Shasta yesterday, but RL came in between me and the really important things. I didn’t look at Nerwen, since I didn’t consider it possible that she’s her fellow mutineer. Now, I only consider it very unlikely (we do have to think about it).

Just a few comments about Eonwe and Shasta, since they’re dead. Lommy is fine with Eonwe almost through the entire game (except for thinking he might be a cobbler briefly). She declares him innocent, ridicules my case against him, and defends him staunchly. Then suddenly the turnaround yesterday. Her defense of him against me must've either been consciously faked, or she analysed him very little before. Once she took the time to look at him yesterday, she conveniently reached a different conclusion. Now he’s dead.

Did anyone notice that Lommy didn’t vote for Shasta on Day1 because she considered herself to be too much of a coward? That attitude quite changed afterwards. ;) She suspected him strongly without any solid reason at all, and when she analysed yesterday, she had to make huge leaps to still colour him bad.

Gwath and Izzy then. Lommy suspected Gwath for a while earlier in the game and even voted for him on Day3 in 3rd position. The next day she’s still suspicious, but less so (without reason). She says she’s still ok with voting for him, but at the same time she dissuades others from doing so. After that, she rapidly drops her suspicion and then declared him innocent (she goes from there to there in a strangely continuous fashion) and still does. Her vote quite suggests he’s innocent, but all her latter behaviour suggests the opposite. Her behaviour towards him on Day4 absolutely screams wolf.

With Izzy she starts out thinking she’s innocent, even stating that she’s one of those she feels best about. Again, she dissuaded people from voting for her on Day4. On the same day later, she concluded that Izzy must be either really frustrated or a cobbler. Henceforth, she never considers her to be anything else but a cobbler. Lommy keeps her safe by calling her innocent as long as she can. When she can’t anymore, she tries to keep her safe by calling her a cobbler and never considering something else.

[Boromir88]

Did anyone notice that Lommy didn’t vote for Shasta on Day1 because she considered herself to be too much of a coward? That attitude quite changed afterwards.~Mac
But there was no Boro intervention on Day 1. :p

The good news is Mac, at least you are watching what you say, making it virtually impossible to see who is your partner. Though, not really sure why you would say something at this point...I mean you pretty much just try to weave in doubt about Lommy, and say Gwath or Izzy could be the last mutineer.

[Boromir88]

Question: Was Gwath "gone" when there was a no-kill?~Shasta
Yes, but I'm fairly sure Izzy missed a day pretty early in the going too, so that might be really hard to tell anything from it. Now you know why I get frustrated over multiple people missing at the same time. :rolleyes:

Though, I still think the key is why Nerwen wasn't killed, and why you...would Izzy have gotten rid of someone who would likely vote against her, to keep you and Gwath, but also make her look more guilty by killing Nerwen? Or is Gwath hoping to use Nerwen's strong suspicion against Izzy, to vote for her, and put this game away?

I think looking at either Mac's interactions between Gwath and Izzy, or Lommy's interactions between the two, are just red herrings at this point. I mean in this situation who's to say how mutineers would act amongst themselves? And it all depends upon personal bias...whether you think Mac is a wolf, or Lommy. There's no doubt one is, I obviously believe it's Mac, Mac obviously believes it's Lommy...but that will just confuse the situation. The key is who would benefit more from an innocent Nerwen still being alive at this point, and not an innocent Shasta? Izzy or Gwath?

[Eönwë]

Meh. My plan was to come out at the very beginning of the day as the baddie, claim the win, and have the cobbler vote with me against the real baddie.
Funnily enough, I was planning on doing that yesterDay, then backed out because of the possible risks of it backfiring (e.g. too many real innocents, there being two baddies and them having more evidence, etc).

The plan was actually to say something like "Cobblers attack [whoever seemed suspicious at this point in the game]", then using the responses, judge who was actually evil and who was a cobbler, then try to do a feint and convince the innocents that I'm actually innocent and to vote the evil ones.

A bit crazy, but then again, do is this game.

This had been my plan since Day 2 so I was sad not to be able to use it toDay.

edit: Oh, Noggie seems to have posted some similar scenario already. Oh well...

[Eönwë]

Of course I'm hoping that there isn't a Mutineer, a Cobbler, and an Ordo - here. Because that would just be.... a bit evil.
That seems very likely though...

[Eönwë]

Oh Issy why do you have to confuse things by becoming a sane useful member of society now? :p
Maybe because now there's a chance of her getting lynched, she tries to look as innocent/helpful as possible.

[Eönwë]

In that case, the real seer must either have made a ridiculous blunder, or is still alive, which would mean that Izzy is the real seer, even though she claims it's not so. It could be Gwath, but whatever the case, the real seer, if they are still alive, they should not reveal, as it seems like there's a cobbler alive too. But then again, why would they leave it so late when there's a chance that they could get killed.
Because of this I think that if Greenie wasn't really the seer, it would have to have been either one of the modfired ones or Gwath. However, we'll never know, so it's probably best if we try to take Greenie's message on board, as that's the only possible information we really have on the living.

[Macalaure]

The good news is Mac, at least you are watching what you say, making it virtually impossible to see who is your partner. Though, not really sure why you would say something at this point...I mean you pretty much just try to weave in doubt about Lommy, and say Gwath or Izzy could be the last mutineer.
Just throwing my thoughts out. I expected to get reactions like these, but at least it won't be my fault if we lose. I'm aware I'm saying that all of them could be mutineers, but since I'm dead, I don't think I have to draw conclusions anymore. If anybody gets a good idea from what I said, I'm ok.

[Isabellkya]

Well, I could continue "acting like a lunatic" Mith. But there are three of us left, so it is definitely serious business time. xD

Zil, there is only one choice toDay.
If we lynch wrong, we lose. If we lynch right.. yay.

If you think I'm the "best choice" then show/prove it.
And no, I've haven't done anything in my power to look suspicious.


Why am I still alive Mac?
Good question. My only guess, is that people have written me off as a Cobbler for so long - that if the Mutineer left believed it. Then they would definitely want me around this Day, to vote with them. If not, then I'd be an easy lynch choice. Just look. People whom are ghosties think I am the best choice. Nerwen could easily vote for me, just look at our "animosity" towards each other. I think even Gwath was thinking I was a Cobbler or Mutie yesterDay.


I missed the first Day, Boro. But have been here for the rest.


Not true, Eonwe. Refer to my comment at the top of this post to Mith.

[Brinniel]

I knew Gwath left town for several days, and while I did consider modfiring him, I decided against it since it seemed he would be coming back. Though I do admit part of the reason is because I realised I had reached a point where any sort of modfire could abruptly end the game and it just plain sucks to end your game with modfire. What does this mean? It could mean the extra loss of an innocent would've resulted in instant victory for the aggressors or it could mean the modfire of a mutineer would've resulted in instant victory for the innocents. So interpret this information in whichever way you may like.

Also, with Mira I hesitated because computer problems are unpredictable, so she could return the next Day or not at all. Ultimately I did decide to modfire her since she indicated I should, but then you all lynched her instead. Wilwa asked to be modfired, so there was no avoiding that. Anyway, I did say I'd give leniency to someone who had a reason for not being around and would return, so I think I would've reacted the same for anyone else as I did with Gwath. I didn't say anything on the admin thread about this matter and I should've, so sorry about that.

Hope that clears things up.

[Inziladun]

If you think I'm the "best choice" then show/prove it.

I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. I was simply stating an opinion based on what seemed a logical process of elimination.

And no, I've haven't done anything in my power to look suspicious.

No? All right then.

[Nogrod]

Thanks for your clarification Brinn! It sounds like I thought it would.

But this whole bussiness of the "missed kill" I saw Shasta bring up once again (kudos!) - and which I had totally forgotten as I was away then - combined with Brinn's notes makes this once more a bit more open I thought this was.

Okay, here's Brinn then: Though I do admit part of the reason is because I realised I had reached a point where any sort of modfire could abruptly end the game and it just plain sucks to end your game with modfire. What does this mean? It could mean the extra loss of an innocent would've resulted in instant victory for the aggressors or it could mean the modfire of a mutineer would've resulted in instant victory for the innocents. So it was close, but which way? *goes to look*

Add with the missed kill, the time-zone issues, possible mutineers - and cross-index them with the earlier question... *goes to do exactly that - or something like it*

Sorry, a bit unconventional measures, but in this kind of game nothing's too conventional anyway... :)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I was going to do that, but if Nog is going to...

I wonder how I got back on the boat after being eaten by sharks...?

[Nogrod]

It could mean the extra loss of an innocent would've resulted in instant victory for the aggressorsHardly. It was actually only the fourth Day (Night) so only 5-6 players were eliminated at that stage. We were twenty in the beginning so at worst it would have been 14 against 4. No instant loss to us in sight there.

So it must be: it could mean the modfire of a mutineer would've resulted in instant victory for the innocentsWhich is interesting indeed as I think most of us thought we were faring pretty bad. But that turns the tables a bit. We lynched McCaber on Day1, Mira on D2 and Annu on D3... and well Sally on D4. Could it just be... Then there would be Lommy vs. Mac (or could they both be innocents?). And surely one more.

The missed kill would make sense if the remaining mutineers were Lommy and Gwath. To Lommy the deadline is 7AM and Gwath was away... a communication mistake? That could also give sense of the next Night's Rikae-affair. If they were disorientated maybe they (well one of them) just didn't read the thread well enough... or something?

I wonder how I got back on the boat after being eaten by sharks...? Ghosts are a tough bunch! :D

[Nogrod]

I was going to do that, but if Nog is going to...Please go on. We need more opinions on this...

I made this list and can share it if someone thinks it's helpful.

The time when Gwath was away is separated by empty lines (even if it's not absolutely certain where he left and where came back... if someone has time to check it - if he said something somewhere + search where is his last and first post after the break that might help - I just don't have the energy right now)

Lynched ones eg. possible mutineers are bolded.

D1 McCaber
N2 Greenie
D2 Mira
N3 Eomer
D3 Annu

N4 ----- (Wilwa modfired)
D4 Sally
N5 Rikae -> Nogrod
D5 Kath
N6 Inziladûn
D6 Lommy

N7 Boro
D7 Mac
N8 Mith
D8 Eönwë
N9 Shasta

[Brinniel]

Hardly. It was actually only the fourth Day (Night) so only 5-6 players were eliminated at that stage. We were twenty in the beginning so at worst it would have been 14 against 4. No instant loss to us in sight there.

Actually it would've been Night 6, as Day 5 was when Gwath missed his second vote.

I wonder how I got back on the boat after being eaten by sharks...?
You were too rubbery, so the sharks spit you back up. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Okay, but if Lommy is a mutineer and not the Ranger, as she claimed, then where's the real Ranger? Mac specifically said it wasn't him, which makes me think that Mac is the mutineer of those two, and Lommy was just severely misguided about Eonwe and myself.

[Nogrod]

Actually it would've been Night 6, as Day 5 was when Gwath missed his second vote.Good to know. It would have been 5-4 in the worst case... and yeah, possibly really dangerous, instant losing comes to mind indeed. But that worst case scenario (5-4 in the beginning of Day6) would also mean that we have gotten now three mutineers in a row eg. Lommy, Mac and Eönwë... (heh, both Lommy and Mac as mutineers... well not too hard to imagine though :)) That would definitively point to Izzie then.

The other chance being - as it looks like Brinn is real with her expression "instant victory" - would be that three out of the four first eg. McCaber, Mira, Annu & Sally were mutineers and Gwath actually is the last one... (leaving both Mac and Lommy innocent... :rolleyes:)

[Nogrod]

Okay, but if Lommy is a mutineer and not the Ranger, as she claimed, then where's the real Ranger?Good point indeed... *needs to think*

[Isabellkya]

I'm going to continue on, since I only had a minute or two to touch on it earlier.



Day One:

Day two:
Nerwen -> Zil
Mith -> Nog
Annu -> Shasta
Rikae -> Shasta (2)
Kath -> Annu
Eomer -> Mira
Shasta -> Rikae
Wilwa -> Eonwe
Rikae -- Shasta
-> Mira (2)
Nog -> Eomer
Mac -> Eomer (2)
Boro -> Mira (3)
Zil -> Annu (2)
Gwath -> Mira (4)
Izzy -> Mac



Day Three:

Sally -> Shasta
Nog -> Annu
Boro -> Nog
Rikae -> Sally
Mith -> Nog (2)
Shasta -> Annu (2)
Wilwa -> Gwath
Eonwe -> Gwath (2)
Nerwen -> Rikae
Kath -> Annu (3)
Lommy -> Gwath (3)
Zil -> Rikae (2)
Mac -> Gwath (4)
Nerwen -- Rikae
Izzy -> Nog (3)
Nerwen -> Annu (4)
Gwath -> Annu (5)


If Gwath is a mutineer, and you think Eonwe, Lommy, and Mac as possible Mutineers - then why did all three of them vote for Gwath this day? Gwath was going to be lynched, until he voted for Annu. If Nerwen and him are mates (which I don't think is the case.) - then it could be argued that Nerwen was trying to save him. Of course, if she is a Cobbler, then she could've been trying to save a suspected MutieGwath.


Day Four:

Rikae -> Gwath
Nerwen -> Gwath (2)
Mith -> Sally
Lommy -> Sally (2)
Izzy -> Izzy
Eonwe -> Sally (3)
Zil -> Sally (4)
Boro -> Gwath (3)
Mac -> Gwath (4)
Shasta -> Sally (5)
Sally -> Gwath (5)

Between Sally and Gwath. If Gwath is a Mutie - and Mac is one - then why would Mac vote for him in this case? Or could it of been two Mutie's on the board... and Mac had to choose between two of his mates? Though Mac's vote for Gwath didn't put him in the lead, just possibility of lead. Trying to lynch an innocent, or jumping on the wagon to try and make himself look good?


Day Five:

Nerwen -> Gwath
Mith -> Izzy
Lommy -> Mac
Kath -> Gwath (2)
Boro -> Nog
Eonwe -> Zil (not bolded)
Boro --Nog
Izzy -> Nerwen
Boro -> Kath
Zil -> Kath (2)
Shasta -> Kath (3)
Mac -> Kath (4)
Nerwen --Gwath
-> Izzy (2)
Mac -- Kath
-> Izzy (3)

If Mac and I are mates, then why would he switch his vote at the last second to me? He could've left it on Kath.



Day Six:

Izzy -> Mac
Nerwen -> Mac (2)
Lommy -> Mac (3)
Mith -> Gwath
Eonwe -> Mac (4)
Boro -> Mac (5)
Shasta -> Lommy
Izzy --Mac
-> Lommy (2)
Mac -> Lommy (3)
Nerwen --Mac
-> Lommy (4)


If Mac was so certain that Lommy was a Mutie, then why did he wait to make his vote for her? Lommy didn't exactly wait to place her vote for him. Nor did Nerwen and myself. Though we both changed to Lommy.


Day Seven:

Mith -> Mac
Eonwe -> Mac (2)
Nerwen -> Mac (3)
Gwath -> Mac (4)
Izzy -> Nerwen

I'm the only voter who didn't vote for Mac. If I was his mate, why wouldn't I just jump on the wagon? I think once Nerwen placed her vote, his fat was pretty sealed in terms of voting.


Day Eight:

Eonwe -> Shasta
Nerwen -> Eonwe
Shasta -> Eonwe (2)
Izzy -> Shasta (2)
Gwath -> Eonwe (3)


Both candidates on the table were innocents?




Edit. Fixed a rogue tag.

[Brinniel]

The other chance being - as it looks like Brinn is real with her expression "instant victory"
Well, maybe instant, give or take a phase or so...or maybe not. Don't try to read too literally into my words, as they do have a vague underlining to them. I'm not going to just give everything away because what's the fun in that? :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'd just like to point out, Izzy, that Mutineer-on-Mutineer votes are much more playable in this setup, as the dead aren't silenced.

[Isabellkya]

Gwath? Nerwen? Either of you around?

[Gwathagor]

Hey, just got here.

[Nogrod]

Good points Izzy.

As I've said before, I'm soo happy I don't have to choose!

Well, maybe instant, give or take a phase or so...or maybe not. Don't try to read too literally into my words, as they do have a vague underlining to them.I do understand. It would be poor to give everything away that easily... I just noticed that one scenario where it could have been 5-4 and indeed "instant"... But as Izzy showed, that scenario looks quite implausible right now.

[Nogrod]

Gwath? Nerwen? Either of you around?It would be better if you all voters would be around... It's no use us ghosts talking without you guys who make the decisions.

[Nerwen]

Though, I still think the key is why Nerwen wasn't killed, and why you...would Izzy have gotten rid of someone who would likely vote against her, to keep you and Gwath, but also make her look more guilty by killing Nerwen? Or is Gwath hoping to use Nerwen's strong suspicion against Izzy, to vote for her, and put this game away?

I've been going over and over it in my head, and I just don't know. At first I was astonished that Shasta got it, but now I can see reasons why either of them might have killed him rather than me: a Gwathwolf could be using my suspicion of Izzy; an Isawolfkya could have been afraid that killing me would point straight to her.

However– a Gwathwolf shouldn't have had too much trouble getting someone other than himself lynched anyway.

Now this is an interesting reaction to someone making plain pure sense and weighing the different possible scenarios... An innocent - even if one that would end up suspected by that kind of analysis - wouldn't react that way, I'd suppose. "Nice try"? :confused:

An innocent who wasn't Izzy. Attacking anyone who looks at her sideways is actually one of her trademarks.:rolleyes:

Really, though, if it were anyone else but Izzy in the dock I wouldn't be hesitating... but this is a player with a history of acting in a horribly suspicious way as an innocent.

I think– note that I'm only meaning this in the context of WW! – she has a genuine problem with understanding how she appears to others.

CF: her comments toDay:

If you think I'm the "best choice" then show/prove it.
And no, I've haven't done anything in my power to look suspicious.

I think "logically" it would be Gwath the mutineer and Nerwen the probable Cobbler; if you believe Greenie's claim.

If you were paranoid, and trying to delve into conspiracy-land Nerwen would be the Mutineer - and both Gwath and I as the innocents.

EDIT:X'd since Brinniel at 1276

[Gwathagor]

It is conceivable that Greenie is lying about being the seer as either Wilwa, who was modfired, or Mira, who's out of touch, could be the real seer and we would never know. If Greenie is just a cobbler, then it opens up the possibility (however slim) that Nerwen may be a mutineer - which would support the odd fact that she has never been night-killed, despite being the closest thing we have to a live known innocent. Slim chance, though. More than likely, I reckon it'll come down to me and Izzy.

[Inziladun]

It is conceivable that Greenie is lying about being the seer as either Wilwa, who was modfired, or Mira, who's out of touch, could be the real seer and we would never know. If Greenie is just a cobbler, then it opens up the possibility (however slim) that Nerwen may be a mutineer - which would support the odd fact that she has never been night-killed, despite being the closest thing we have to a live known innocent. Slim chance, though. More than likely, I reckon it'll come down to me and Izzy.

It's difficult for me to imagine a real seer, modfired or just killed, who could not find some way to pop in just once and let everyone know to watch out for Greenie.
You're right: it is possible. It seems unlikely to me, however.

[Inziladun]

Another thought: Mira's computer apparently died suddenly, but Wilwa had time to ask Brinn herself to be modfired. Surely she would have taken a moment to enlighten us if she were a gifted?

[Gwathagor]

Maybe Izzy was trying to play cobbler yesterDay? Since at this point in the game we can't afford to lynch cobblers, it would be a good tactic for anyone to use and it would explain the obstinate craziness, anyway. Personally, however, I'm pretty sure both cobblers have been killed by now and are just talking a lot, trying to throw us off.

[Gwathagor]

Another thought: Mira's computer apparently died suddenly, but Wilwa had time to ask Brinn herself to be modfired. Surely she would have taken a moment to enlighten us if she were a gifted?

Well - maybe, but it's also possible that Brinn would have thought that that would unbalance the game. I mean, would she have revealed Wilwa's role if she was a mutineer? Let's not get distracted, though.

[Nerwen]

More weirdness.

If Gwath is a mutineer, and you think Eonwe, Lommy, and Mac as possible Mutineers - then why did all three of them vote for Gwath this day? Gwath was going to be lynched, until he voted for Annu. If Nerwen and him are mates (which I don't think is the case.) - then it could be argued that Nerwen was trying to save him. Of course, if she is a Cobbler, then she could've been trying to save a suspected MutieGwath.

Huh? How could Gwath and I be mates now? It's not just a matter of "not thinking it's the case"– it's impossible!

Note that my switch here was actually precipitated by Rikae's Hunter-reveal.

I think even Gwath was thinking I was a Cobbler or Mutie yesterDay.

Possible slip ( showing she knows he's not a wolf)?

EDIT: X'd since my last post.

[Gwathagor]

Possible slip ( showing she knows he's not a wolf)?




Haha. "Even" Gwath? :p

[Nogrod]

Another interesting formulation... :smokin:
I reckon it'll come down to me and Izzy.

[Isabellkya]

Gwath.
I think he was talking about Wilwa coming and revealing that she was the seer - if she were. Since she had time to ask Brinn to mod-fire her.


-eyerolling at Nerwen-

You can't just take sentences out of context, and attempt to twist them to another meaning, and expect to get away with it Nerwen. You've been doing it -I've only noticed it in regards to myself- for sometime. I've called you on it numerous times.

You skipped over the part where I said I don't think it is the case of you and Gwath being MutieMates.

In the second portion, you are taking it out of context. Really Nerwen.
That was explaining why I think I'm still alive. Because I'm an easy lynch choice.

If you are going to try and say I'm a Mutie because of "weirdness", then you should've done it Days ago. Since it is in no way a new thing. Or "new information".


X'd with Gwath and Nog.

[Nerwen]

You skipped over the part where I said I don't think it is the case of you and Gwath being MutieMates.

No, the point is, you can't logically consider it at all– it's now numerically impossible for there to be more than one wolf!

I'm not twisting your words. If you say weird and/or suspicious things, people will comment on it. Them's the breaks....

EDIT: spelling.

[Isabellkya]

I think even Gwath was thinking I was a Cobbler or Mutie yesterDay.

^
That is neither weird or suspicious. People question why they or someone else is alive all of the time. It is nothing new. For you to single it out and bring it out of the context, to call it a slip - is twisting it.

[Gwathagor]

Another interesting formulation... :smokin:

I may as well also point out that Nerwen's vote will end up being the decisive one, since neither Izzy nor myself can very well vote for Nerwen in good conscience, given Greenie's seer reveal. So I'll end up voting for Izzy and Izzy will likely vote for me and then Nerwen will choose who dies.
:p

[Nogrod]

Putting my few cents in...

Looking at the overall situation you need to decide which scenario is the more believable: the one where we lynched a host (well at least two) mutineers on the first 4 Days or so and got them into a tight spot - or the one where we made two to three succesful lynches on the last three Days just narrowly avoiding defeat before it.

If the first is the right one, then it looks like Gwath is the mutineer, if the second, then it should be Izzy (also following from her own reasoning with Lommy's, Mac's and Eönwë's voting)...

[Gwathagor]

^
That is neither weird or suspicious. People question why they or someone else is alive all of the time. It is nothing new. For you to single it out and bring it out of the context, to call it a slip - is twisting it.

But why did you say "even Gwath?" Whether it is or not, that really does look like a slip.

[Gwathagor]

Putting my few cents in...

Looking at the overall situation you need to decide which scenario is the more believable: the one where we lynched a host (well at least two) mutineers on the first 4 Days or so and got them into a tight spot - or the one where we made two to three succesful lynches on the last three Days just narrowly avoiding defeat before it.

If the first is the right one, then it looks like Gwath is the mutineer, if the second, then it should be Izzy (also following from her own reasoning with Lommy's, Mac's and Eönwë's voting)...

Uh, explain?

[Inziladun]

Putting my few cents in...

Looking at the overall situation you need to decide which scenario is the more believable: the one where we lynched a host (well at least two) mutineers on the first 4 Days or so and got them into a tight spot - or the one where we made two to three succesful lynches on the last three Days just narrowly avoiding defeat before it.

If the first is the right one, then it looks like Gwath is the mutineer, if the second, then it should be Izzy (also following from her own reasoning with Lommy's, Mac's and Eönwë's voting)...

I'm inclined to believe the latter scenario.

[Isabellkya]

I've already voted for Nerwen before Gwath.

If it comes down to Nerwen's vote. Then I'm sure we all can take a good guess at what it will be... and the village will lose.


X'd with Gwath x2 & Zil.

[Nerwen]

^
That is neither weird or suspicious. People question why they or someone else is alive all of the time. It is nothing new. For you to single it out and bring it out of the context, to call it a slip - is twisting it.

Nope. Drawing attention to possible slips is just part of this game.

Izzy, I'm frankly getting a little tired of your apparent belief that you deserve some kind of special treatment not given to anyone else.

No doubt you will now say I'm "twisting" and "putting words in your mouth" again. Well, guess what? I'm tired of your endless "twisting" accusations too.

EDIT:X'd since Izzy at #1293. EDIT 2:word left out.

[Nogrod]

I may as well also point out that Nerwen's vote will end up being the decisive oneAgreed and being corrected of what you meant.

I too think it will come down to Nerwen to decide this. Unless that row between Nerwen and Izzy comes down to some crazy conclusions... :)

You saying that Gwath makes me think better of you - if that is of any comfort in this tight spot you guys are. I mean if Izzy were an innocent she would let go at least now as there are only forty minutes to go...

If it comes down to Nerwen's vote. Then I'm sure we all can take a good guess at what it will be... and the village will lose.Sounds like wolf-talk to my ears...

[Isabellkya]

You'd been gone for how many Days? Yet you come back and at first think it is innocent vs. innocent between Nerwen and I. Then I believe you jumped on the Izzy-is-a-Cobbler Wagon.


X'd with Nerwen and Nog.

[Nogrod]

Cool down Izzy... :)

[Gwathagor]

You'd been gone for how many Days? Yet you come back and at first think it is innocent vs. innocent between Nerwen and I. Then I believe you jumped on the Izzy-is-a-Cobbler Wagon.


X'd with Nerwen and Nog.

Which post is this a response to? Inzy's?

[Inziladun]

I thought she was referring to Nogrod.

[Nerwen]

Which post is this a response to? Inzy's?

She means you, I think.

[Isabellkya]

Since when do I believe I deserve special treatment?

I could've sworn I was the only one in my head.
But then again. This is WW. So apparently when you play WW, people from different parts of the world are capable of developing psychic powers and actually being inside my head while I think.

If that is true. Then I think I should be paid some kind of fee, for hosting others inside my head.


Let go of what Nog?

Why shouldn't I expect Nerwen to vote for me?
She has been calling me a Cobbler and/or a Mutineer for Days. Yet has only voted for me once, I believe. If she thinks that way, then why isn't her vote talking?


X'd since my last post.

[Gwathagor]

It's hard to tell with all the posting.

[Nogrod]

I thought it was referring to Gwath and his three-Day off...

Please people, when you refer to something make it clear what you are referring to. Some people may post while you write and then it might be hard to see what your post relates with.

Hmph... best of talkers with three posts in between... :rolleyes:

[Isabellkya]

My #1302 was in response to Gwath's #1296.


X'd since my last post.

[Gwathagor]

Well, Izzy? Who were youreplying to? Not trying to be dense, just trying to figure out who you were talking to.

Oh, crossed with Izzy, sorry. Thanks.

[Nerwen]

Since when do I believe I deserve special treatment?

I could've sworn I was the only one in my head.
But then again. This is WW. So apparently when you play WW, people from different parts of the world are capable of developing psychic powers and actually being inside my head while I think.

If that is true. Then I think I should be paid some kind of fee, for hosting others inside my head.


Let go of what Nog?

Why shouldn't I expect Nerwen to vote for me?
She has been calling me a Cobbler and/or a Mutineer for Days. Yet has only voted for me once, I believe. If she thinks that way, then why isn't her vote talking?


On the contrary. I have been trying to make allowances for you!

[Gwathagor]

My #1302 was in response to Gwath's #1296.




Oh, well in that case I wish I could show the piece of paper I scribbled the idea down on when I thought of it, right before I fell asleep to show you that I really did come up with it on my own. You'll just have to take my word for it that I wasn't getting on any kind of bandwagon.

[Nogrod]

Let go of what Nog?Well, I didn't exactly say "let go" but "cool down"... but anyway. The same message.

Whatever you feel there is no sense in you wasting your energy and time picking it up with Nerwen. Unless we have the most terrible seer we've ever had leaving her/his village in trouble, Nerwen is not the one you should lynch.

Just think about that.

So try to use your last half an hour either showing why Nerwen should believe Gwath should be lynched - or why you shouldn't. If you're an innocent you know very well what I mean: your goal as an innocent is not to fight with Nerwen but to secure the village win.

That row makes no sense at this point. It looks more like a distraction - or evil.

[Gwathagor]

Oh, well in that case I wish I could show the piece of paper I scribbled the idea down on when I thought of it

To clarify, I mean the idea that you were playing cobbler yesterDay.

[Gwathagor]

That row makes no sense at this point. It looks more like a distraction - or evil.

It wouldn't make sense for an evil player, either, which is the weird thing.

No, well, actually it might make sense if Izzy was a mutineer trying to look like a cobbler trying to get lynched, which would theoretically avert Nerwen's suspicion to me.

[Macalaure]

15 minutes to go... no votes yet... suspense! :)

[Inziladun]

So try to use your last half an hour either showing why Nerwen should believe Gwath should be lynched - or why you shouldn't. If you're an innocent you know very well what I mean: your goal as an innocent is not to fight with Nerwen but to secure the village win.

That row makes no sense at this point. It looks more like a distraction - or evil.

Agreed. Izzy, you seem to have spent an inordinate amount of time claiming you are innocent and calling people out for questioning you, but I haven't seen much as to why it should be clear you are innocent.
If you are, I think now would be the time to bring all to the forefront.

[Nogrod]

I could believe Lommy and Mac staged that fight. In a game where nothing is revealed they could afford it - and Lommy was going to a long trip with no net connection so she would get herself lynched with that kind of behaviour if it helped their cause (well it didn't in the end but the scenario is still possible). Now if Eönwë was a mutineer as well (or Sally in place of any of the three) that would make sense why they voted for Gwath as he's an innocent then.

Whatever, I'm bending towards believing we made it really poorly in the beginning and picked our act together in the last few Days.

The way Gwath and Izzy post right now would point into that direction.

I mean this looks actually quite innocent Gwath: Oh, well in that case I wish I could show the piece of paper I scribbled the idea down on when I thought of it, right before I fell asleep to show you that I really did come up with it on my own.

And this doesn't look like an innocent trying to solve the problem half an hour before the final deadline: Why shouldn't I expect Nerwen to vote for me?
She has been calling me a Cobbler and/or a Mutineer for Days. Yet has only voted for me once, I believe. If she thinks that way, then why isn't her vote talking?

[Gwathagor]

15 minutes to go... no votes yet... suspense! :)

No sense in waiting, since it would take a seer reveal to change my mind about Nerwen.

++Izzy

[Isabellkya]

What you seem to think was frustration/anger in that post in referring to Gwath, wasn't.

I didn't get frustrated or "angry" until the next post.

*sigh*
I haven't been playing Cobbler at all Gwath.
I've merely been "playing like a lunatic".
As I said. I'm Cannon Fodder.

Before you argue that "playing like a lunatic" and "playing Cobbler" are the same. To me, they aren't.

"Playing Cobbler" is a bit different from actually being a Cobbler. "Playing Cobbler" is putting on a show, regardless of whether or not you are actually a/the Cobbler. Going out of your way to do suspicious and "weird" things.

Being a Cobbler, is trying to look innocent, yet helping the Wolves. Sure, you may want to draw some suspicion towards you - but are you going to put on a show? Maybe, depends on the person. You'd play both sides... dancing like a demented elf on a fence post perhaps.

"Playing like a lunatic" is merely what is suggests. Letting "lunacy" run rampant, and just saying things candidly.

Most people have to watch what they say - regardless of what alignment or role you have. Since you don't want to appear too seerish if you are the seer, and etc.

So playing "like a lunatic" to me, is being candid. I haven't gone out of my way to appear suspicious, or to appear like a Cobbler, or to draw attention to myself. I've merely posted what thoughts have come into my head, as they came into my head. So I suppose it is more a mix of candid and stream of consciousness. I'm Cannon Fodder, I can do that. Plus, it is fun.

If it makes me look suspicious. If it makes me look like a Cobbler or a Mutineer, and that is why I've been kept alive. Then apparently job accomplished, since I'm still here. Was it a plan? Heck no. I merely wanted to have fun.


Was there really a point to all this? *shrug*
Merely explaining my "weird behavior".


X'd since Gwath's #1316.

[Isabellkya]

Are you banking on Nerwen voting for me, Gwath?
Was that your plan all along?

[Nerwen]

Okay, this is ridiculous:

++Izzy.

For the sake of the meta-game. (i.e., why should anyone get a free pass on acting like this?)

Gwath– if you are the last wolf, you've played very well, so congratulations to you and the team.

Izzy– you've made it virtually impossible for me not to lynch you.

If you're a cobbler– well done!

If you're a wolf– too bad.

If you're innocent after all– I suggest you learn from this experience.

[Gwathagor]

Being a Cobbler, is trying to look innocent, yet helping the Wolves. Sure, you may want to draw some suspicion towards you - but are you going to put on a show? Maybe, depends on the person. You'd play both sides... dancing like a demented elf on a fence post perhaps.


Well, not that it's very important, but sometimes the very best thing a cobbler can do is try to get themselves - rather than the wolves - lynched by looking guilty. Some players might expect this ploy late in the game and so try to avoid lynching someone who looks like they're trying to get lynched. So, behaving in such a way that you are likely to be lynched can sometimes be a good way to not be lynched. Maybe you thought of this already, maybe not.

[Nogrod]

Amen... and thumbs up... :confused: :smokin:

[Nerwen]

I have to walk out the door right now. I left it as long as I could.

Goodbye.

[Inziladun]

Well, not that it's very important, but sometimes the very best thing a cobbler can do is try to get themselves - rather than the wolves - lynched by looking guilty. Some players might expect this ploy late in the game and so try to avoid lynching someone who looks like they're trying to get lynched. So, behaving in such a way that you are likely to be lynched can sometimes be a good way to not be lynched. Maybe you thought of this already, maybe not.

All these schemes and machinations. I should have been in bed half an hour ago. ;)

[Isabellkya]

Fate sealed then.

I was going to vote for Gwath.
Though my gut says it is Nerwen.

No, Nerwen. The entire point of WW is to have fun. If you expect me, and tell me that I should change my playing style. No thank you. I like having fun while playing WW.

You should be making your vote on who you think is a Mutineer, not on some meta-game reason. Or attempt to force me to change my playing style.

[Nogrod]

Nice recitation though Izzy...

Sadly that could be as well a mutineer-tactics in a game like this...

[Macalaure]

Good thing about the late votes: we don't have to wait half a day for theoretically possible retractions. That's always the late-game anti-climactic problem with retractions...

[Isabellkya]

++Izzy.

Don't care anymore.
I'm not playing here. If someone is going to lynch me to try and force me to change my playing style. No thanks.

[Nogrod]

And playing-styles sure should be free.

They just have different consequences...

Like mine. I always play it loud and involved and most of the times I get killed sooner than later for it. But it wouldn't be fun for me otherwise.

So stick to your game but accept the consequences Izzy. I also got a bit hurt in the earlier days but now I'm quite happy with howe it is with my playing. Werewolf-games last for me three Days the most - normally one or two. I just have to take the fun from there. :D

[Macalaure]

Shhh.... be nice, people. :)

[Brinniel]

Deadline. No more talking please. I will skip ahead and write this narration now so that the results will be revealed and post-game discussion can begin. :)

[Brinniel]

Wit' only three livin' band 'o pirates aboard th' Grey Gaurhoth, this day would be th' day which would decide their fate. Without th' claim 'o a second spy, it was mostly agreed Almost-Blind Nerwen must not be a mutineer as she had be cleared by th' supposed spy A Little Green Drunk. So it came down between Ham-Hands Izzy 'n Cowerin' Gwath Slasher.

Izzy glared at Gwath. Gwath glared at Izzy.
"So what gunna it be, Nerwen?" they both asked th' navigator. "It be up to ye to decid our fate, so who do ye think be th' final aggressor?"
"Argh," answered Almost-Blind Nerwen. "So much pressure. Why must I be th' one to bare such a burden? 'Tis be no easy decision. Cowerin' Gwath looks too innocent to be evil, but Ham-Hands Izzy be actin' too much like a conspirator to actually be an aggressor."
"Fer th' last time, I be not a conspirator, savvy?" muttered Izzy bitterly.
"Well then, aggressor ye must be then," decided Nerwen. "Because ye act too odd to be innocent 'o any sort."
"Don't be ridiculous," retorted th' striker. "Ye be knowin', I wouldn't be surprised at all if ye turned out to be th' mutineer, Nerwen.
Almost-Blind Nerwen rolled her eyes.
Cowerin' Gwath took out his knife 'n Izzy watched angrily as he began to polish it.
"Oh don't act so upset," said Nerwen. "Ye 've known ye had it comin' all along."
"Fine then," said th' frustrated Ham-Hands Izzy. "I've had all I can take wit' ye lot anyway."
'An she stole th' knife from Cowerin' Gwath's hands 'n plunged it into her own chest. Collapsin' to th' floor, Ham-Hands Izzy th' striker would hunt 'n gather no more.


The Living:

-Almost-Blind Nerwen ~ Navigator/Sea Artist
-Cowerin' Gwath Slasher ~ Powder Monkey


The Ghosted:

-Black Death Brinn ~ Captain ~ shish kabobed (mod)
-Slippery McCabbie Dagger ~ Boatswain ~ danced the hempen jig
-Lil' Green the Staggering Drunk ~ Powder Monkey ~ drank up all the rum
-Dancin' Mira Blythe ~ Striker ~ danced her way off the deck
-Whinin’ Eomer Bonny ~ Musician (Pur-loined Violin) ~ his pur-loined violin pur-loined him
-High-Pitched Annu ~ Surgeon ~ halved by her own saw
-Stutterin’ Wilwa Scab ~ Cook ~ gave her heart to Davy Jones
-Legless Sally Dawkins ~ Carpenter ~ was shark bait for a day
-Puffy Shirt Rikae ~ Cabin Boy ~ was never fond of pointy objects
-Pirate Nogrod the Fashionably Late ~ Gunner ~ had an unfriendly encounter with cold steel
-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe) ~ death by seagull
-Gangrenous Inziladun Jones ~ Pilot ~ was a little too attached to the wheel
-Pirate Lommy the Infected ~ Quartermaster ~ mobbed by her own mob
-Pirate Boromir the Malformed ~ Gunner ~ cannon fodder
-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
-Short Ruth Mithril ~ Cook
-Stinkin' Eön Bloodbeard ~ Powder Monkey
-Shark Tooth Shasta ~ First mate
-Ham-Hands Izzy ~ Striker ~ became the ship scapegoat

[Brinniel]

"So now what do we do?" wondered Nerwen.
"Well, I don't be knowin' what ye gunna do now, but I certainly be knowin' what I gunna be doin' now that I be cap'n," replied Gwath Slasher.
"Avast, thar, ye can't be cap'n; ye're just a lowlife powder monkey." Then it dawned on th' navigator. "Wait a minute, ye're th' final mutineer, aren't ye?" she realised.
Gwath grinned. "Indeed I be. Th' Grey Gaurhoth be mine. 'An she gunna run how I be needin' her to run. No more takin' orders from others. Now I be th' one givin' out orders."
"So what ye gunna do now, murder me?" wavered Almost-Blind Nerwen.
"Hmm...well that depends," answered th' aggressor. "Will ye work under me orders, or would ye rather take ye chances?"
"Pah, I'll never take orders from a powder monkey," th' navigator growled.
"Okay, then I be predictin' ye won't be needin' 'tis." In a flash, Gwath reached at Nerwen 'n tore her remainin' eye from 'tis socket.
"Avast, that be me eye!" she cried out. "Gift it back, ye filthy piece 'o scum."

Eyeless Nerwen started after Cowerin' Gwath, but without any eyes she missed th' mutineer altogether 'n instead ran straight off th' ship. Gwath threw th' eyeball in after her 'n it landed wit' a plop.

Now that th' final loyal crewmember was dead, Gwath could finally take over th' ship. Th' Grey Gaurhoth was all his 'n at th' thought 'o it, he gave out a hearty hoot and hollar. But thar was still more work to be done.

"Alright, ye scurvy dogs...back to yer posts!" ordered Gwath Slasher. "Hoist th' sails. To th' Haven 'o Umbar we gunna be off to restock on supplies." But nothin' happened. Th' ship was silent 'n Gwath could hear no one's movement but his own. Th' once animate corpses on th' ship were now silent. Successful or not, th' crew had fulfilled their purpose 'n their ghosts were no longer needed. These dead men would be tellin' no more tales.

Cowerin' Gwath Slasher looked around at his empty ship. He may have earned th' title 'o cap'n, but he was one without a crew, 'n stranded alone at sea.
"Oh bugger," sighed th' new cap'n.


The Stranded:

-Cowerin' Gwath Slasher ~ Powder Monkey/Self-Proclaimed Captain (aggressor/mutineer)


The Corpses:

-Black Death Brinn ~ Captain ~ shish kabobed (mod)
-Slippery McCabbie Dagger ~ Boatswain ~ danced the hempen jig (ordo)
-Lil' Green the Staggering Drunk ~ Powder Monkey ~ drank up all the rum (spy)
-Dancin' Mira Blythe ~ Striker ~ danced her way off the deck (aggressor/mutineer)
-Whinin’ Eomer Bonny ~ Musician (Pur-loined Violin) ~ his pur-loined violin pur-loined him (co-conspirator)
-High-Pitched Annu ~ Surgeon ~ halved by her own saw (ordo)
-Stutterin’ Wilwa Scab ~ Cook ~ gave her heart to Davy Jones (ordo)
-Legless Sally Dawkins ~ Carpenter ~ was shark bait for a day (co-conspirator)
-Puffy Shirt Rikae ~ Cabin Boy ~ was never fond of pointy objects (avenger)
-Pirate Nogrod the Fashionably Late ~ Gunner ~ had an unfriendly encounter with cold steel (ordo)
-Poop Deck Kath ~ Musician (Pipe) ~ death by seagull (aggressor/mutineer)
-Gangrenous Inziladun Jones ~ Pilot ~ was a little too attached to the wheel (ordo)
-Pirate Lommy the Infected ~ Quartermaster ~ mobbed by her own mob (protector)
-Pirate Boromir the Malformed ~ Gunner ~ cannon fodder (ordo)
-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper (aggressor/mutineer)
-Short Ruth Mithril ~ Cook (ordo)
-Stinkin' Eön Bloodbeard ~ Powder Monkey (ordo)
-Shark Tooth Shasta ~ First mate (ordo)
-Ham-Hands Izzy ~ Striker ~ became the ship scapegoat (ordo)
-Almost-Blind Nerwen ~ Navigator/Sea Artist ~ could really use another pair of eyes (ordo)


Aggressors win.

Co-conspirators win.

Innocents lose.


The thread is now open for post-game discussion.

[Nogrod]

Oh you Powder-Monkey you Gwath! *curses*

Well, really, kudos for your last Day performance!


But Mira and Kath? I see now why you didn't want to modkill Gwath, Brinn.

Heh, Mac... how come you suspected me from the very first Day? I'm getting to know you... even if I can't hold on to my feeling for it. Well the next time I will remember... :rolleyes:

Just tell me guys about choosing Rikae! I'm dying to learn what happened there.

Sally being a conspie is no wonder - and neither is Eomer - heh, you were after me on Day1 as well... :smokin:

Kudos to all of you who gave your best effort in these impossible circumstances! Inziladun, Lommy, Boromir, Shasta, Nerwen, Izzy... You made this a game I remember with warmth!


And yeah, just a crazy idea Brinn! I loved the narratives and in a sense the whole set-up - even if it was just totally insane and impossible to play.

But whatever. It was nice to hang around even after death and that did indeed make up for some other disappointments.

Now looking at the mutineers I do wonder had we made better knowing the roles of the dead... maybe not... albeit in the end... :p

Fun.

[Brinniel]

But Mira and Kath? I see now why you didn't want to modkill Gwath, Brinn.
Indeed. As much as I hate modfiring a wolf, I was okay with letting Mira go since it was still early in the game and I didn't think it'd hurt her team much, plus they weren't doing all that bad considering they killed the spy right away. My main fear was that she might return the next day saying she found internet access after all only to find herself already dead. Well she never did return and while I came up with a solution, you guys were nice enough to take care of the situation for me. ;)

The Gwath situation happened the Night before Kath's lynching which is when I found out through his mates why he wasn't around. It was a tough decision on what to do because it just didn't seem fair to have half the baddie team killed for not participating. And at the same time I didn't want to give him special exceptions. I was leaning towards modfiring Gwath, but then at the end of the Day Kath got lynched and Mac looked like he was heading down the same road. I feared that if I modfired Gwath it would mean three wolf deaths in three phases. Even though the innocents could've won that way, I don't think it'd be a particularly fun way to win. Mainly it was selfish reasons I kept him alive; I didn't want my game to end prematurely due to modfire. I actually wrote out an explanation for Gwath's absence and not modfiring him, but I never posted it because I was afraid it might hint at roles one way or another. But I did finally have to explain the final Day since I didn't want you thinking I was being unfair; truly I was doing everything I could to keep it balanced. From what I was told, it sounded like Gwath would return, but I wasn't actually certain. I'm thankful he did return because if he didn't my game probably would've ended with modfire.

I admit I was quite frustrated at the time since I felt any decision I made would make someone unhappy. It's a relief to know that the game stayed balanced after all (in my opinion, at least). Even in the final hour, I wasn't sure who would win which certainly kept things exciting. :)

[Brinniel]

Day 1
Hunt: Lommy
Lynch: McCaber

Night 2
Dream: Nerwen
Protection: Mirandir
Hunt: Sally
Kill: Greenie

Day 2
Hunt: Eonwe
Lynch: Mirandir

Night 3
Protection: Sally
Hunt: Kath
Kill: Eomer

Day 3
Hunt: Sally
Lynch: Annu

Night 4
Protection: Rikae
Hunt: Gwathagor
Kill: none
Modfire: wilwarin

Day 4
Hunt: Gwathagor
Lynch: Sally

Night 5
Protection: Mithalwen
Hunt: Nogrod
Kill: Rikae

Day 5
Lynch: Kath

Night 6
Protection: Boromir
Kill: Inziladun

Day 6
Lynch: Lommy

Night 7
Kill: Boromir

Day 7
Lynch: Macalaure

Night 8
Kill: Mithalwen

Day 8
Lynch: Eonwe

Night 9
Kill: Shasta

Day 9
Lynch: Izzy

---------

I'd love to hear some explanations for the picks made by both baddies and gifteds. :)

I have more to comment about the game, but I should've been in bed long ago, so this is all for now. I still have four narrations to write, but they should get done sometime within the week.

[Nogrod]

I didn't want you thinking I was being unfair; truly I was doing everything I could to keep it balanced. You sure were doing it! *bows* Great work Brinn! Don't you hesitate a moment about whether you did the right thing. You did.

But those mutineers would deserve some whipping indeed... :D

Looking especially at the following:From what I was told, it sounded like Gwath would return, but I wasn't actually certain.Hey you baddies, some effort, please! Especially if you think of playing the game or deserving a win... So the mod didn't even know if she had her baddies in the game or not? Shame on you.

Gwath was good on the last Day though, that I will generously admit.

[Inziladun]

Ha! I was right about Kath, at least. :rolleyes:
Well, we gave it the old yeoman's try anyway.
I don't blame Nerwen. She did the best she could with a tough situation.
An interesting game to be sure: bad luck from the start with Greenie gone so quickly, but we almost eked out a win anyway.
I feel bad for suspecting Izzy now, but I honestly was fairly convinced she had to be the last mutineer standing.

[Kath]

Well done Gwath! Carrying it through on your own was very impressive there! I thought you were safer than you were as I'd become convinced that Nerwen was a cobbler by the end, it was only when I read the narration with the roles revealed that I realised how much trouble you could have been in there! :D

Very well done to the ordos though. In that game where you couldn't know anything to get two wolves lynched so close together was amazing!

To Brinn, hope you managed to enjoy modding despite everything that happened. That was a brilliant game, not knowing the roles definitely added bizarreness! Great fun. I felt bad not returning after being killed but I was too afraid of getting Gwath in trouble. :rolleyes:

Thought I might take the opportunity to answer a question from Boro earlier: yup, I'm a conservative player. Had I been innocent or guilty I'd have voted for Gwath that Day if he was going to be modfired because I'd rather only one person died in a Day than two.

[Boromir88]

Thought I might take the opportunity to answer a question from Boro earlier: yup, I'm a conservative player.~Kath
Hehe, still I think it was more of I found some fishy things in your analysis post, and I remember you saying you can't ever get away with it as a wolf. I was most sure of Mac, simply because of Lommy and the way he ended up acting...and once he voted for you for really no reason, but retracted for Izzy, I thought there was a chance you were actually a wolf. Mira, I had no idea about, if she hadn't suddenly had to go, I don't know when I would have voted for her.

Yes Nogrod, I doubt if Mira and Kath came up as wolves, and then Mac, you would have thought I was a co-conspirator. Now maybe you would have thought I was being a bold wolf to make it to the end, but if we had known the roles, I doubt you would have been thinking I was a co-conspie the entire time. And really the only reason I thought you were evil, is because you kept insisting I was a co-conspie, and that I was playing too stubborn to be innocent. Come on...like I said, when am I not stubborn? You should have at least notice though that I had good reasons and intentions on why I voted for each person that I did, hence I was innocent. Although, from you, you may be getting a picture of me dining on a shoe sometime.

I would like another apology from Lommy...but this one just to rub it in, alright you get all the glory about Mac, and I do apologize for not trusting you about him sooner. However, Kath? Why jump out early with a full-frontal assault...just let me explain myself first, and then go all-out bombardment if you feel you have to. :p We're really even though, you were right about Mac, and I was right about Kath.

All the mutineers, and you Gwath, nice handling of that last day. Not only sounding very sensible but innocent. With how many times Nogrod said you looked innocent, I was suspicious, not because of what I thought about Nogrod's role (actually towards the end, if you didn't know, I started thinking he was more innocent), but simply being suspicious because..."Yes Gwath, you are sounding very sensible at this time, would be the best time for a wolf..." but that was about it, because I agreed with what Nogrod was saying, you were just sounding innocent!

I hope all me mates enjoyed it, this was a fun game to test some people, and see how we all really play. I'm going to need to slowly change what I do, or Mith, Lommy, Rikae...everyone will be able to figure me out, well I guess I could be ok still fooling Nogrod, as I doubt he ever will. :p

Brinn first, I want to say I am very very angry...how could you put your crew through something like this! Do you have any idea how nerve-racking this was! And the whole time you could sit back, knowing all the roles just laughing at the interactions...it afterall is just a game, but yeesh it was like walking around in a room, where you know there is broken glass everywhere, but you're blindfolded! Alright, so I loved it, and the results weren't as bad as I was secretly thinking the entire time, plus I did much better than I thought I really did, which makes me really happy. Plus being cannon fodder, and all the narrations were a joy. :D

[Macalaure]

Heh, Mac... how come you suspected me from the very first Day? I'm getting to know you... even if I can't hold on to my feeling for it. Well the next time I will remember...

I had to suspect someone, didn't I? ;)

Just tell me guys about choosing Rikae! I'm dying to learn what happened there.

We knew that Gwath was going to leave for some time, and we absolutely didn't expect Brinn not to modfire him. The plan was therefore to spare him from the mod and get him lynched or hunter-killed. I voted him twice and he narrowly got away just because the innocents liked him so much. :p

I'd love to hear some explanations for the picks made by both baddies and gifteds.

We basically followed the suggestion Nogrod made. We killed good players who we expected nobody would listen to if they were dead and couldn't vote anymore (Greenie, Eomer, Inziladun). Getting the seer in Night 2 was pure chance. We chose Rikae because we thought the chances of her picking Kath or me were reasonable and if she chose Gwath - then so be it. I think the missed kill should be explained by Kath, ;) though it was my mistake, too, by not checking in before the Day started (and thus missing Brinn's complaint about the lack of a kill). Now I see that we would indeed have lost Gwath (and the game!) if we hadn't missed the kill. I changed the general strategy and killed Boro because, as he has guessed already, he was least likely to believe me the day after my ranger-claim.


A lot of kudos to Brinn! For a great game, great narrations, and a lot of effort to keep the game balanced all the time.

Kudos and curses to Lommy! Expect to be killed very early the next time I'm a wolf.

[Mithalwen]

The Gwath situation happened the Night before Kath's lynching which is when I found out through his mates why he wasn't around. It was a tough decision on what to do because it just didn't seem fair to have half the baddie team killed for not participating. And at the same time I didn't want to give him special exceptions. I was leaning towards modfiring Gwath, but then at the end of the Day Kath got lynched and Mac looked like he was heading down the same road. I feared that if I modfired Gwath it would mean three wolf deaths in three phases. Even though the innocents could've won that way, I don't think it'd be a particularly fun way to win.

However having non-participatory wolves is a big hindrance to the innocents who had no concrete information. Frustrating especially when you point out that the lack of modfire might be for the wolf reason and you get ignored completely or are rather patronisingly accused of being misguided. I think I give up ....

Not that I am bitter :rolleyes:

but I told you so... :P

[Gwathagor]

Thanks for the game, Brinn!

[Boromir88]

Edit: Or if you don't want to read everything below, to put it like this, which I find simpler. The ordos made some great and tough choices throughout the game, and because we played well, giving the mutineers added chances (without giving us back anything in return) felt like we were getting punished for actually playing well together.

Not that it means anything, just going to share my 2 cents. The big picture is it's done now, and this turned out to be a breath-takingly down to the wire game, after a sluggish start.

With that being said, it was "balanced" because of conscious decisions to make it that way. You know we all want those type of "eyes stuck on the computer" to the end games, but sometimes that's just not how things work out. I'm sure Mith didn't want her seer finding 2 wolves the first 2 nights and then the 3rd wolf be lynched the next day. I bet she had some real nice plans for a long, fight to the finish game, but that's not how things turned out.

In this new type of game, of course you want balance, but how many times were the innocents handicapped to achieve that balance? We lynched blindly, no roles revealed (though arguably in any game we do technically lynch 'blindly' anyway, we just feel better about our lynches, and it doesn't turn into a "well you are not suspecting me for anything" match), seer dead and gone no Night 2, and the mutineers were granted special circumstances to hang around. When Wilwa said she had to leave, she was removed immediately, and I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just saying what I see what happened.

In any game, the ordos already start out at a disadvantage, for not knowing who anyone else is, and far more things have to go right for the baddies to get slaughtered. You need a seer to pick out some lucky choices, maybe the hunter snatches on, a few Ranger protection, and overall the ordos need to place their trust in the right people...far more things have to be in sync for the village to get a smashing victory. Where the wolves, already being advantaged, can slaughter the innocents with far less having to go right for them, and of course why they win more often than not.

And in my opinion, any decision about Gwath or Mira should not have been influenced by Kath or Mac. Kath and Mac made choices which led to their own lynching...none of it was 'unfair,' enough innocents thought they looked guilty and they got lynched. Mac did a stellar job surviving for as long as he did, and getting us to lynch our Ranger, but that was his choice and he ended up lynched for it. At least in my opinion, it should not have played any factor (but we can respectfully disagree :) ).

I'm not saying that "rules are rules" and there is no room for bending, I'm just saying it seemed like every decision went to benefit the baddies on this one, and further handicapped the innocents. Which of course caused this game to end in a dazzling, spectacular way that it did end.

Like I said, I don't want to sound to mean, because the truth is Mac and Kath were trying to lynch Gwath, but we just didn't let 'em. :rolleyes: Plus, afterall, Gwath did come back (I think I know him enough as a player to know he would not use an inability to play for a few days as a crutch to look innocent), and when he did come back, any decision to not lynch him lies with the ordo crew, and is no fault but our own.

However, the village was stripped of a win here, and one that I think they deserved to win, for playing cohesively and playing together well enough to lynch 3 muties based on their own decisions.

[Rikae]

Gwath
Kath
Lommy
Mac

KILL KILL KILL

That is all.

:D

And that was without even a drop of rum.


Just wish I'd gone with my instincts the night they killed me, instead of trying to be clever...

[Kath]

Yeah ... that missed kill ... that was utterly and entirely my fault. I told Mac I'd send the kill in and then I fell asleep before I'd done so. So yeah, completely down to me and I felt so bad about it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And that was without even a drop of rum.


Just wish I'd gone with my instincts the night they killed me, instead of trying to be clever...


Who's the one with the psychic powers now? :p

[Inziladun]

For curiosity's sake, who was the missed kill intended to be?

[Kath]

It would have been Rikae. We were always going to kill her, we were just a Night late!

[Gwathagor]

However having non-participatory wolves is a big hindrance to the innocents who had no concrete information. Frustrating especially when you point out that the lack of modfire might be for the wolf reason and you get ignored completely or are rather patronisingly accused of being misguided. I think I give up ....



Yeah, I feel bad about that. I fully expected to modfired when I left town.

[Gwathagor]

Oh you Powder-Monkey you Gwath! *curses*

Well, really, kudos for your last Day performance!



Really? The funny thing is I could have sworn you were a cobbler, the way you were proclaiming my innocence on the last couple days. I had no idea I had actually been convincing.

[Gwathagor]

Looking especially at the following:Hey you baddies, some effort, please! Especially if you think of playing the game or deserving a win... So the mod didn't even know if she had her baddies in the game or not? Shame on you.




Well, when I realized I was going to be leaving town, I decided the best thing I could do for my team was disappear without a word and get modfired after two days.

[Gwathagor]

I'd love to hear some explanations for the picks made by both baddies and gifteds. :)



On Night 8 I killed Mith because she was around very little each day, hadn't received much suspicion, and had already voted for me once I think. On Night 9 I killed Shasta because Izzy and Nerwen were bickering and I felt like I could guess how they would vote, whereas Shasta was an enigma to me.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

On Night 8 I killed Mith because she was around very little each day, hadn't received much suspicion, and had already voted for me once I think. On Night 9 I killed Shasta because Izzy and Nerwen were bickering and I felt like I could guess how they would vote, whereas Shasta was an enigma to me.

I'd have voted for you.

[Gwathagor]

I'd have voted for you.

Well, dodged a bullet there.

[Macalaure]

I can absolutely understand why some of you feel like an earned victory has been taken away from them.

You ordos played exceptionally well, especially when you lynched Kath and me. However, we mutineers were quite handicapped, too, with the loss of Mira, and if Gwath had been taken from us, too, we would have been very underhanded (and don't forget that Kath was away for a bit, too) and the best play wouldn't have gotten us anywhere (even with the seer dead right away). I don't think Gwath being away was an advantage to us (except for Gwath not getting lynched in the meantime). He was not there to help Kath or me, and he had to get a hold on the game after missings days. Not that easy either.

I think Brinniel did a great job at balancing the game, even though she had to bend the rules a little. If she hadn't the game would have been a lot more boring. I mean, not only wouldn't the last few days never have happened, but without the chance to hand the torch over to Gwath on my last breath, I probably would never have attempted the ranger-thing, and the game would have been over very quickly indeed.

As I said, I can understand the frustration on the side of the ordos - but I think Brinn's decision was in favour of a good game, and thus in favour of the most fun for everyone.

PS: Talking about tough decisions, did anyone honour Gwath's gutsy move of keeping the known innocent alive? :)

[Inziladun]

It would have been Rikae. We were always going to kill her, we were just a Night late!

What a shame for us you missed that kill! Rikae had picked Gwath that Night.

[Thinlómien]

I don´t feel like we lost even though I got myself lynched, I was SO wrong about Kath and we did lose - the truth is that I´m just glad that now everybody knows I was right about Mac and I´m not completely nuts. ;) I´m also proud of being the only one (as far as I recall...?) suspecting Eomer of cobblerism and Mira of mutineerism and of nailing Sally as a baddie early on. :D And you mutineers should have succeeded in sending in the kill ´cos then I would have made one save (and saved myself too :eek: ). I´m running out of net time so I´ll be back to talk & rep later, now I will only say it was a very lovely and educational game, kudos and thanks to everybody!!!

PS. Sorry for the horrible layout but I blame the German keyboard...

[Mithalwen]

I do understand a moddess' dilemma - it was having faced so many that perhaps made me suspect Gwath was being spared for a reason. Only comment was that it would have been fairer if we had been told he would NOT be mod killed (which the rules provided for in exceptional cases) so perhaps he would have been considered sooner.
And while it was a handicap losing Mira the wolves did have the upper hand in knowledge - it isn't like we KNEW we were a wolf down. Really miraculous how close we came.

[Boromir88]

First I'll just say I'm not angry with anyone, win or lose, it doesn't matter there will always be another game. And as others have said the play on both sides was just stunning.

But the point I was trying to make is do you want a "thrilling" game, or do you want to win/or lose by the "rules." I think we all like the thrilling games, but not all of them can possibly end that way, and how much rule bending had to take place to create the "thriller?" Every game can't be thrilling, or down to the wire, and to try and create those types of games, when you punish the village for their good play (or reward the wolves for a mistake)...I'm sorry I don't agree with that.

Mira was an accidental surprise, but it was still fair, and admirable play by the innoncents (and I think Gwath too! :p). There have been surprise wolf-lynching before. (Keep in mind we had no clue at the time Mira was a wolf)

Kath was lynched for a couple reasons, but she got lynched because enough innocents thought her vote and what she was saying was suspicious (keep in mind we had not clue at the time Kath was a wolf).

Mac was finally (:p) lynched because he was caught and faked a ranger claim. That was his choice, and after being pushed into a corner he certainly went down fighting. I will say, I think mostly we were all pretty certain Mac was a wolf.

Gwath should have be killed based on the mod-fire rule, for not posting or voting for 3 days. I'm not saying Gwath got a cheap win, or shouldn't be proud of the way he played, because he made some great plays and won because of that.

The reason I always felt any mod-fire rule was in place was to make the game more even for all it's players. It's like a football game (sorry Mith, bare with me on this analogy). It would be like if the Lions and Cowboys were playing, and the Cowboys decided the Lions were not going to be allowed to watch any of their game-films, and so the Lions are left in the dark about the Cowboys' formations, plays, and strategy, in their upcoming match. If the mutineers didn't do anything, say anything, or post at all, for multiple days it makes it near impossible for the innocents.

Ok, we already knew that the rule was going to be loosely applied and not the "2 no votes and you're gone." But why have it at all if you aren't going to apply it fairly? Had an ordo missed 2 straight votes would they have been mod-fired? But the rule obviously wasn't intended for wolves?

Why was Wilwa immediately removed from our count? That was the night the wolves didn't send in the kill...they made a mistake, they messed up, why did they get rewarded with Wilwa's removal? See what I mean? Mira and Gwath were given the chance to come back if they could, but Wilwa was removed right away.

I don't mean any disrespect to the mutineers, I thought the way you played during the day was spectacular, but you were caught, we got you. Add on top of that, you made a flub by not sending in a night kill. This wasn't a matter of a game imbalance, the mutineers got lynched because the village worked well together and the mutineers made mistakes. You were awarded special rule-bending for the mistakes, and in return the innocents got nothing back. No one's role was given to us, we had no idea the situation we were up against for most of the agme (which may have changed the lynches/outcome), we got nothing.

This just felt like one that not only did the crew win 'legally' but one they deserved by their play and it was taken away. Like I said, I'm not angry at anyone for the decisions or what happened. I'm just trying to give my perspective, for next time, and that is I don't agree with rewarding a wolf-team (or innocent team) after making mistakes, so you have an 'entertaining' game. :)

[Nogrod]

I don't know why you guys keep on playing werewolf time after time. But I know why I am doing it.

It's a social thing of course and it's fun to meet you people in new games and just share the experience.

It's also a game of winning or losing therefore creating adrenaline and team-effort (even if as goodies it's hard to get that working - but when it does it's just splendid!). That is always fun as well (whatever the end-result is).

But I also do love the possibility of deducing things from what people have said and done. And when you suddenly realise: "Haa, X said this and formerly she said that - and because she voted for Y at that point but then tried to avoid Z being lynched... hmm... that must mean she's a wolf!", it's just soo great a feeling - especially if you get it right... :rolleyes:

So I must say I also love the "intellectual-side" of this game. The power of reasoning, the possibility of catching the wolves and their schemes - or pulling out a scheme to outwit the villagers if being a wolf.

Why all this, then?

Well to my surprise I realised on the last few Days of this game that even in a game insane enough where nothing is told to us we can still make reasoned theories and build backed-up arguments! That was just great!

So sad if some of you thought I must be a baddie of some sort because I hung around to the wee hours with my computer, for it was only being excited about the possibility of actually being able to deduce something in a game like this!

Sadly as well, I was so wrong with my theory concerning Izzy vs. Gwath - even if I had also entertained quite seriously it the other way and even laid the reasons out why it could be the other way... :confused:


And even if I understand (or think I do) what Boro means and can sympathize with his view, I think I will side with Brinn on this one. You made good decisions in hard situations making this game an unforgettable one - no matter who won or lost. And that I think is in the last stance the most important thing - that we have fun.

If the game would have ended with Gwath being modfired and Mac giving up without his ranger-stunt - and missing the last Days altogether (when it actually started to be really interesting)... well it would have been a great victory for the village but much less interesting or mind-boggling game it turned out in the end.

[Brinniel]

The plan was therefore to spare him from the mod and get him lynched or hunter-killed. I voted him twice and he narrowly got away just because the innocents liked him so much.
Now why is it whenever a wolf team actually wants to sacrifice a fellow, the village just won't cooperate? I mean really, guys. :p

Frustrating especially when you point out that the lack of modfire might be for the wolf reason and you get ignored completely or are rather patronisingly accused of being misguided.
I didn't not modfire just because Gwath was an aggressor, but because his death would've resulted in my game ending prematurely. If Gwath was an innocent and modfiring him would suddenly end my game (and make an instant win for the baddies), then I would've done the same thing.

In this new type of game, of course you want balance, but how many times were the innocents handicapped to achieve that balance? We lynched blindly, no roles revealed (though arguably in any game we do technically lynch 'blindly' anyway, we just feel better about our lynches, and it doesn't turn into a "well you are not suspecting me for anything" match), seer dead and gone no Night 2, and the mutineers were granted special circumstances to hang around. When Wilwa said she had to leave, she was removed immediately, and I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just saying what I see what happened.
I don't think this is the first game where roles weren't revealed upon lynching. Yes, it's a bit of a disadvantage for the innocents, but more than anything it just means a change of strategy. And I did balance it out by allowing the dead to talk. Even though Night kills aren't necessarily innocent, they aren't wolves, which means the village has practically known innocents around. If a player was a threat, the wolves couldn't shut them up, which is a disadvantage for them.

This particular game may have swayed in the baddies' favour, but it could've just as easily swayed in the village's favour. If the spy wasn't killed early, she could've dreamt of one, two, or even more aggressors...and she wouldn't have to worry about taking her dreams to the grave. The hunter could've taken down another baddie, rather than an innocent. If the game had gone that way, it'd probably be the aggressors who thought they had an unfair disadvantage...

As for wilwa, she specifically asked me to modfire her, so there really was no way to avoid that. She couldn't play anymore and was most likely not coming back.

In any game, the ordos already start out at a disadvantage, for not knowing who anyone else is, and far more things have to go right for the baddies to get slaughtered. You need a seer to pick out some lucky choices, maybe the hunter snatches on, a few Ranger protection, and overall the ordos need to place their trust in the right people...far more things have to be in sync for the village to get a smashing victory. Where the wolves, already being advantaged, can slaughter the innocents with far less having to go right for them, and of course why they win more often than not.
That's interesting because I've always seen it as the complete opposite with the village having the advantage. They have power in numbers and while several mistakes could become a problem, there is still room for mis-lynches. Meanwhile if the wolves are unlucky and one or more of their own is lynched, it can be costly. Plus, a seer can be quite the deadly weapon. Not only can they reveal wolves, but the fear of simply having one around and dreaming can affect the baddies' behaviour.

And in my opinion, any decision about Gwath or Mira should not have been influenced by Kath or Mac. Kath and Mac made choices which led to their own lynching...none of it was 'unfair,' enough innocents thought they looked guilty and they got lynched. Mac did a stellar job surviving for as long as he did, and getting us to lynch our Ranger, but that was his choice and he ended up lynched for it. At least in my opinion, it should not have played any factor (but we can respectfully disagree ).
Mac and Kath were justly lynched and indeed it was their own choices that led to their fate. But there is a reason why the wolves are a team. Teammates should be able to rely on one another; sometimes bad luck strikes one baddie, but that shouldn't doom the entire team. If one or two wolves are lynched, then the best they can hope for is that their mates will survive (if they aren't already the last one) and the doomed wolves can contribute towards their mates' survival by how they treat them in the Day while still alive (and in this case, even after). For example, it was extremely bad luck in Fea's game when both my mates were lynched the same Day due to a seer reveal. But that shouldn't have meant the end for the baddies because there was a third wolf, and as that third wolf I knew it was my responsibility to make a win for the team. So when half of a wolf team is lost to modfire, it's a severe handicap for the other two. Because they should have other teammates to rely on and they don't. Does that make any sense?

However, the village was stripped of a win here, and one that I think they deserved to win, for playing cohesively and playing together well enough to lynch 3 muties based on their own decisions.
Well it's difficult to say, but if Gwath had been around every Day, the baddies still could've won. Or maybe his presence would affect the actions of the baddies in a negative way causing them to lose. We'll never know. I would never say the innocents played poorly; you played extremely well. But the baddies played well too.

If I ended the game with modfire, allowing the innocents to easily win, I was sure I would get several complaints and unhappy reactions with the results. The baddies would claim they had an unfair disadvantage, and some innocents might feel that their win was not completely deserved since modfire took care of half the baddies for them (at least that would be my reaction if I were an innocent in this situation). And like I said, ending a game with modfire ruins the fun for everyone whether they be winner or loser...and it even ruins the fun for the mod. So really, I think no matter what choice I made, someone would still be unhappy with me.

Well, when I realized I was going to be leaving town, I decided the best thing I could do for my team was disappear without a word and get modfired after two days.
Yeah, that was part of the problem. I had to message Mac and Kath to find out what was going on, and they informed me Gwath was going away for a week, which meant missing three Days. I'm a pretty easygoing person who hates modfire in general (I only had it because so many players complain when others don't participate and disappear without a word). If someone told me they had to go away 2-3 Days for unavoidable reasons, but guaranteed me they would return, I probably would allow them to stay alive regardless of role (and if they didn't hold their promise and return by the specified Day, they'd be modfired). I thought I had stated this or something like it in the admin thread, but apparently not, so that's my fault. In the case of Gwath, I didn't have direct communication with him on the issue, so while I knew he'd be back after a certain time, since he probably would assume he was dead, I wasn't sure he'd actually return to the game. It was because I didn't have that direct communication or certainty of knowing, that I think I would've modfired had it not looked like all my baddies might be dead by the end of the following Day. And I'm glad he returned since I really would've had no choice but to modfire him if he didn't. I can understand the reasons why Gwath didn't want to publicly announce his absence, but for future reference, (for all players, not just Gwath) it's probably better to at least inform/discuss with your mod about any Days you might miss...rather than leaving them completely in the dark.

And you mutineers should have succeeded in sending in the kill ´cos then I would have made one save
Oh yeah, I forgot you had protected Rikae that Night. So even if the aggressors had sent in Rikae's name as planned, there would've still been no Night kill and Rikae still wouldn't have taken down Gwath.

Only comment was that it would have been fairer if we had been told he would NOT be mod killed (which the rules provided for in exceptional cases) so perhaps he would have been considered sooner.
I was going to announce it and I'm sorry I didn't. I wrote up a post and everything, but at the last minute I decided not to submit it, worrying that the way I wrote the post may hint at Gwath possibly being innocent or guilty even if I tried to sound neutral.

Every game can't be thrilling, or down to the wire, and to try and create those types of games, when you punish the village for their good play (or reward the wolves for a mistake)...I'm sorry I don't agree with that.
I was never trying to punish the village and reward the wolves, and I'm sorry you think that. I never bent the rules for a mistake made by the wolves. The problem was that RL got in the way and it was unavoidable. I felt like the entire baddie team was being punished just because a couple of their mates couldn't participate and not for any actions of their own.

Why was Wilwa immediately removed from our count? That was the night the wolves didn't send in the kill...they made a mistake, they messed up, why did they get rewarded with Wilwa's removal? See what I mean? Mira and Gwath were given the chance to come back if they could, but Wilwa was removed right away.
The difference is that wilwa directly asked me to remove her from the game. Mira indirectly said it was okay if I modfired since she might or might not come back, but she wasn't asking for it. And Gwath definitely didn't ask for modfire. But if he had, or I knew for certain he wouldn't be coming back, I would have modfired him immediately, I assure you.

You made good decisions in hard situations making this game an unforgettable one - no matter who won or lost. And that I think is in the last stance the most important thing - that we have fun.
Definitely. Yes, it is nice to be able to take the credit for winning...but at the same time, it's not like I'm mailing brownies to the baddies for winning. In the end, winning or losing should not be all that important; it's really the experience that counts. There are some games from way way back that I have to double check on who actually won, because my experiences are more memorable. Of course there are a couple exceptions where winning is a big deal when you manage it under impossible circumstances; that is when victory is truly sweet. But that wasn't the case here. The innocents could've won, but victory would not feel nearly as sweet and memorable in this situation compared to other games. Plus, the experience wouldn't be memorable either because it would've been a dull game.

Anyway, I am grateful to see there are at least a few players who felt the game remained balanced in spite of everything...because I really do keep going back and forth on whether or not I made the right decision. While I would like to mod again, I'm not sure if I should bother. There was a point in this game where I was so frustrated with the situation at hand, I wanted to give up and quit....but apparently mods can't modfire themselves. I don't know if I can emotionally handle the pressure placed on a mod to create a flawless game enjoyed by everyone after now failing to do so twice. My whole goal in modding is to make sure everyone is entertained and having fun, regardless of results...and obviously that has not happened. Do other mods get frustrated like this? I'm doubtful since if that were so, no one would be modding. Either I must be very unlucky or I just suck as a mod. Anyway, if I do end up modding another game, I will definitely eliminate modfire since all it has done is screw with me. I no longer want to be held responsible for those who don't participate, because it's not my fault if they miss a vote or more. :rolleyes:

Moving on, I do want to throw out credit where it's deserved:

Mac, what an excellent job you did, especially with Lommy on your tail which is never easy. You made my day with that ranger reveal. After awhile, I thought the Day would be a Mac lynchfest and that would've been quite dull. But then you not only spiced things up, but somehow managed to survive by the skin of your teeth and get Lommy lynched at literally the last minute of the Day. What great entertainment.

Kath, I thought you played quite smoothly and expected you to survive longer. I was rather surprised you suddenly became the lynch of the Day. It's a shame you had no real opportunity to defend yourself, but it is how it is.

Gwath, I'm so glad you came back and not only did you come back, but you came back stronger than ever. You played strategically well and innocently which is why you won. The performance you gave upon returning made up for any absence, in my opinion. It's for that reason I'm glad I didn't modfire you, because then none of us would've been able to see that performance and the game would've been cut short.

Sally, you were quite the co-conspirator. You made several believe you was in fact a mutineer and then that "confession" later on was much amusing. Excellent work.

Lommy, I must admire your boldness in this game. It may have gotten you lynched, but it also played a major role in taking down an aggressor. I can't recall ever seeing someone so boldly pursue a player and actually be right, so you really do deserve a prize for that.

Rikae: Okay, you may have hunted the ranger at first, but then you went on to hunt two aggressors and a co-conspirator. You were very accurate with your suspicions and it's just a shame you weren't able to die on a Night when you had chosen a baddie.

Greenie, I am sorry you were killed so early. I couldn't believe how lucky the aggressors were with their first Night choice, especially since you don't seem to die early in the game very much. I would've loved to see you play the spy for at least a little longer because it would've been interesting to see what later dreams you would've made.

To the newbies Annu and Inziladun (who while has played before, this is my first time seeing him) : You both did an excellent job playing and made a great contribution to the game. WW games aren't always easy for newbies to jump in, and this one had an extra challenge, but you handled it well. I hope to see you both continue WWing in the future.

Nogrod and Boromir, you made great ordos as always and I appreciate the heavy contribution you gave, even beyond death. Truly the game would have not been nearly as interesting without the two of you.

Nerwen, I don't at all envy the position you were put in. Being the ultimate decision-maker is a lot of pressure and even if you voted for the innocent, you still did a great job at handling the situation.

Izzy, I felt bad everyone seemed to assume you were a cobbler or mutineer. Maybe your style is a bit different, but it's entertaining and I enjoy it, so don't change. Often players get lynched because of playing style and while it does suck, at least the others will learn their lesson for next time they play with you. ;)

[Nerwen]

Just checking in briefly- I'm currently somewhere with limted internet access- I just want to congratulate Gwath a second time. All that Day I had a nasty feeling that lynching Izzy was just too easy... but in the end I couldn't find any actual reason to vote him.

[satansaloser2005]

Can't stay long right now, but wanted to share a couple things.



So here's how my train of thought worked, right? Right.

I thought Nerwen was a wolf. To be more exact, I thought she was a wolf and had figured out my hint to the pack here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=599987&postcount=49), where I talked about rum and mentioned 'meat' and 'pies' quite a bit. And then I tried to hint back when I accused her based on her mention of a previous game, because, really, who takes me seriously? I figured I could get away with it and say "Yeah, gotcha, I'm on board" because my opinion generally isn't taken into account so I could send her a message and be safe but unfortunately she wasn't a wolf at all!


And Kath. Oh, Kath, I'm so sorry! I figured you were some sort of gifted (or even innocent, but either way) and the pack hadn't killed you for some reason. I know how dangerous you are when you're alive so I wanted you gone before you picked out a few baddies and- oh, wait....whoops....:(


Mac, you were excellent! I laughed so hard at your reveal (and subsequent reactions) that I about died. Oh, you're always so great. And poor Lommie, who had you pegged from more or less the beginning and no one really believed her!


K, will share more thoughts later but must dash. Well done all! :D

[Gwathagor]

Just checking in briefly- I'm currently somewhere with limted internet access- I just want to congratulate Gwath a second time. All that Day I had a nasty feeling that lynching Izzy was just too easy... but in the end I couldn't find any actual reason to vote him.

They call me...Teflon Wolf. :)

[satansaloser2005]

They call me...Teflon Wolf. :)

You owe me a new shirt, Gwath. I've got juice all over this one now.

[Nogrod]

They call me...Teflon Wolf. :)And an Instant Lynch Ordo... depends on the game. :D

[Gwathagor]

Yeah, I could start going by Insta-Lynch. It's funny if you know.

[satansaloser2005]

*snickers*

When I added you on facebook I totally thought it was a joke, by the way.


I just realized. Gwath, you're the only one left alive for once. How's it feel? ;)

[Gwathagor]

Novel.

[Mithalwen]

I didn't not modfire just because Gwath was an aggressor, but because his death would've resulted in my game ending prematurely.

Fact is in this context Gwath was spared becasue he was a wolf. If he had been an ordo you would have modfired him because it wouldn't have ended the game. But obviously not your fault that everyone ignored or patronised me (growls at Nogrod).

I was going to announce it and I'm sorry I didn't. I wrote up a post and everything, but at the last minute I decided not to submit it, worrying that the way I wrote the post may hint at Gwath possibly being innocent or guilty even if I tried to sound neutral.


:(

. Do other mods get frustrated like this?

Yes. Try having two whitewashes one in each direction then have your next game actively sabotaged by your players doing the ONE thing you asked them not to. I know I should go back and finish my narrations for my game but I am still somewhat dispirited six months on. So I doubt that I will mod again. And since most games seem to make my frustrated, unhappy or otherwise terminally grouchy I shall probably stop playing entirely.

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long. But I know you can't predict every possible circumstance and must accept the divine right of mods to do as suits them.

[Nogrod]

But obviously not your fault that everyone ignored or patronised me (growls at Nogrod).Hey! :confused:

Please Mith...

And since most games seem to make my frustrated, unhappy or otherwise terminally grouchy I shall probably stop playing entirely.

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long.Okay, because being blamed of it already, then let's do it - the patronizing I mean. :)

It's a game dear god. Yeah I was complaining a bit myself during the game as it looked totally impossible to actually deduce anything in there - but we made just great! So I don't see how someone can be upset with losing that kind of a game? Or losing a game in the first place (my complaints were not directed towards not being able to win, but not being able to play it using reasoning as the main tool). Being less result-oriented makes the game much more fun!

The only thing in werewolf that really annoys me is when I get killed on D/N 1-2. But that's only because I'm not able to play any more in that game.

[Boromir88]

The only thing in werewolf that really annoys me is when I get killed on D/N 1-2. But that's only because I'm not able to play any more in that game.~Nogrod
It's only a game Nogrod :p

I think this one players (myself included) got a bit more testy than normal, simply because of the nature of the suspicions.

If you think about it, in any game we lynch blindly. There really is no 'solid' evidence, because it relies completely on how people perceive it. How someone perceives why _____ was killed at Night, or how a bandwagon started. However, we are far more confident with our suspicions, because we can see "Well _____ lynched our Ranger," or "Kath's a wolf, let's see what she said about people."

The nature of this game, you could not do that. We could not see who died and what their role is, in the actual (physical) results that might not seem to be a big deal. We lynched 3 wolves and we supposedly were doing it blind. But emotionally (or mentally) it was a strain...you couldn't say "Nogrod led a bandwagon against an innocent McCaber, and didn't vote for Shasta." Well you could (obviously I did) but it didn't seem much, when you didn't know McCaber's or Shasta's role.

I can't say if it was a big disadvantage or an advantage for us, but I can say that probably caused the tense game late in the DLs. As we primarily had to rely on what people said, and how people acted/reacted throughout the entire game. It was like a game where every day was Day 1. That's not a bad thing, I think it was different and challenging at times, but it certainly made the game feel more personal, because we were suspecting people on their actions (which actions were "innocent" and which were not) and not because "you lynched 3 innocents and have been defending wolf-Mac all game." I think that just made this game feel more personal, not necessarily a bad thing, but it was easier to forget in this game, that it was well...just a game. :)

[Mithalwen]

Hey! :confused:

Please Mith...

Or losing a game in the first place (my complaints were not directed towards not being able to win, but not being able to play it using reasoning as the main tool). .


A game I don't end up enjoying very often.

I suppose I do rather resent being told I am misguided ..and indeed everyone else being told I am misguided when I was right .. being suspected before I even posted.. ridiculous.

And if you aren't interested in winning there is no point in playing any game - Otherwise it is just wasting hours in a draughty library or cyber cafe being insulted by people you end up wanting to murder basically.

And yes I know I am a grouchy old bag...

[Brinniel]

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long. But I know you can't predict every possible circumstance and must accept the divine right of mods to do as suits them.
Okay, I get it. A lot of people felt this game was unbalanced from the get-go. But if so many felt this way before the game even started, why not speak up? I am only one person with one perspective. And unfortunately, I seem to see things much differently than others (and not just in WW). I wish it weren't so since it always seems to cause problems for me, but I can't change how I think as much as I may try. In this case, I actually felt the baddies were at a disadvantage since they couldn't stop the seer from revealing dreams. It was extremely lucky for them that they killed the seer immediately, and I didn't think that likely to occur. And then also the factor of having practically known innocents killed at Night still posting opinions could've made a huge disadvantage. But obviously everyone else saw it the complete opposite. If you guys thought it was so unbalanced, you should've said so. After all, I did say on the first post of the admin thread:
I’m hoping it will work the way it is, but if anyone has a suggestion that could better balance the game, feel free to share and I’ll take it into consideration.
I know I see things differently which is why I'm open to suggestions. So yeah, I'm pretty irritated to hear complaints that the game was so unfair from the very beginning since it could've easily been fixed by someone saying something. Especially when it was indicated that someone should say something if the general opinion was leaning in that direction. :/

And if you aren't interested in winning there is no point in playing any game
Well, of course everyone wants to win for their team; I agree it's not worth playing if you're not going to try. But I think what Nogrod was trying to say is that while everyone does want to win, it doesn't mean they have to be a sore loser when they don't. Because just as someone has to win every game, someone also has to lose. And if everyone who lost was bitter about it, then WW would be no fun and no one would want to play. I admit, I've had losses I've been quite frustrated about. In my early days of WWing, I found myself quite emotional about getting killed (especially since I couldn't seem to make it past Day 3), but over time I've learned to de-sensitize myself over these things. Yeah it can be frustrating, but it is just a game and not the end of the world, so you get over it and move on. I think every player has been frustrated with a WW game at one point or another. Simply the nature of the game can cause tension and emotions to run high. But as frustrated as we can get from time to time, I think the best thing we can do is try to keep that frustration in check and watch what we say so that there are no hurt feelings. Because when feelings are hurt, that's when a WW game goes sour.

And about not revealing roles...

I initially planned to leave the roles known, then after thinking about it, I decided against it. If the roles weren't kept secret, it'd be rather amusing to have baddies posting and messing with the innocents beyond death, though it'd probably get old real quick. Plus, if the dead baddies were known and the gifteds confirmed and able to reveal whatever along with known ordo innocents, it really would've been unfair for the baddies. The main experiment was to see how the dead would interact with the living and affect the game...and then to also see how players would suspect and vote without solid evidence. As frustrating as it may have been, I think it proved you don't necessarily need that solid evidence to come to conclusions, considering how accurate many of you were with your suspicions at one time or another.

[Mithalwen]

I was just trying to be honest about why I don't think I should play more - and this is a gradual realisation not the result of one game. I am probably over sensitive but on the other hand I am not at home when I play able to pop in now and then go off and make a cup of tea, read a book come back and see what is going on. I try and give as much time as I can wangle and often there is noone around... it is madness. Then you come back to find the place has gone mad while you are away. I end up playing catch up, trying to correct things someone accused me of in a previous day then seeming odd and defensive and then go throught he whole noone else around thing to then get accused of not participating properly.


I knew this game was going to be tough but I had played other games with no reveal (but not so many villains). It was more after we lost the seer that it seemed hopeless. I also expected that we might have used the double kill and frankly I think it was a major own goal that we didn't instead of lynching Mira (assuming she would have been modfired). Confirming that for instance that Greenie was the seer would have spared me for one wondering if Issy was right ...I wasn't a lot of time trying to convince myself that there was no plausible set of circumstances for Greenie to be bluffing.


I know that we signed up for the game as advertised and I don't have a problem with that really.

I do know that someone has to lose... usually that someone is me... :rolleyes: ... I actually really suck most of the time at this. So its myself I am most frustrated with - first time for ages that my instincts have been right (post 868 inter alia) and pushing them might have made a difference ..though that might have been getting myself lynched:S Heigh ho..

Anyway sincere apologies for rambling miserably on...

[Boromir88]

Okay, I get it. A lot of people felt this game was unbalanced from the get-go. But if so many felt this way before the game even started, why not speak up?~Brinn
It came off as a new challenge, that's why I signed up when I really should have been working on my several assignments throughout the summer. You appealed to the Captain Kirk in me. :p

I don't know if I would have called it 'unbalanced,' because clearly had the wolves not gotten the seer right at the start, who knows how that would have effected the outcome? But, as an ordo, in this one, to do what I normally do was far more trying and challenging. That is why I went off early in the game about the minimal posting, and why I thought the mod-fire rule was there in the first place. It was simply impossible to do anything when people weren't posting. In a normal game, you always have the revealed roles, and kills, to fall back on, but this primarily relied on what people said and how they reacted...when you don't say anything, it's impossible to figure anything out.

And unfortunately, I seem to see things much differently than others (and not just in WW). I wish it weren't so since it always seems to cause problems for me, but I can't change how I think as much as I may try.
What good would it do anyone to have us all nod heads in agreement? It's good to have different perspective, and I don't mean to be a problem for you (or anyone) simply because we see things differently.

I know when Nerwen, Mith, and I were wolves in your last modded game, Nerwen had to leave unexpectedly and you switched Kitanna into a wolf for us, because you didn't think it was fair to us...I don't know what my partners, or anyone else said, but I did tell you I didn't want another wolf, I thought we could have managed without. In that situation, I think the majority agreed to give us another wolf, but I honestly believed we didn't deserve one.

You were faced with a similar dilemma here, and you stuck to what you honestly believed would be fair to everyone, if I was a wolf in this one, I probably would have disagreed with you again. That's not because I like causing you problems and trust me, the outcome did not sour the experience. :) That's simply because I wonder how much rope should the wolves be allowed, they win the majority of games because they start out with an advantage, and people might not think knowing who's who is not a big advantage (it probably isn't lots of things can have a much bigger effect who wins and loses), but the bottomline is that's why the wolves win the majority of games. That's just the basic nature of it, so I just disagree with any decision to further help them out, whether I'm a wolf or not. ;)

[A Little Green]

Thanks everybody for a tight, nerve-wrecking, absurd, wonderful game! I was so angry for getting killed after only one dream, especially because I guessed it wasn't due to seeming seerish. I would have loved to live longer in my first game as a Seer, and I believe the village's situation was made quite the worse for losing me. :smokin: I loved the game nevertheless and being able to post after death was some compensation for getting killed so early.

They call me...Teflon Wolf. :)I was tempted to rep you a second time today for totally making my day but BD doesn't let me.

[satansaloser2005]

I was tempted to rep you a second time today for totally making my day but BD doesn't let me.

I repped him just now for it, when re-reading through the game.



Gah, this was so fantastic!

I decided that given my last experience as a cobbler *glares teasingly at Boro* I would be outright about my evil-ish nature so the wolves didn't waste a kill on me. My real goal was to actually get lynched twice, but I obviously didn't run enough mok (;)) to do it.

Once again, fabulous game, everyone, and Brinn, I think you did in fact make the right choice. It could have been handled maybe a bit better but in the end it was best for the game to not have it end prematurely. Long live Teflon Wolf! ;)

[Thinlómien]

Grave-digging this thread, just to say a few things. The basic setting was challenging, not unfair, and it was just the loss of the seer that made it too bad for us innocents. And if I ever complained I hate the game, it was because keeping roles in secret gets into my nerves, but if I really hated that kind of games, I wouldn't have signed in. I just like complaining. ;) (So: notice to all mods - if I say I hate your game, don't take it seriously, I'm just whining!)

Kudos and curses to Lommy! Expect to be killed very early the next time I'm a wolf.Haha, truth be told I'm happy I managed to read you, because a long time ago I was quite good at reading you until you altered your playing style and since then I have been totally clueless up until this game. Cheers!

I would like another apology from Lommy...but this one just to rub it in, alright you get all the glory about Mac, and I do apologize for not trusting you about him sooner. However, Kath? Why jump out early with a full-frontal assault...just let me explain myself first, and then go all-out bombardment if you feel you have to. We're really even though, you were right about Mac, and I was right about Kath. I'm seriously sorry! :D She just fooled me absolutely completely - I still have hard time believing she was innocent...

Thanks everybody once again, it was a great and memorable game.