T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter [Archive] - Page 2

Nogrod

09-22-2009, 04:40 PM

The company had marched slowly fighting the foul weather the whole day staying mostly in their own thoughts. The Rangers of the North were not the small-talk geniuses form the south in the first place, but the Night's events had made them even gloomier. But they were slowly advancing to South-West whatever their mood was.

Finally they reached a small grove-like piece of woods in the middle of the moors they used to call just "Home", because of the few great oaks it had and because of the homely feeling it gave to the Rangers on their errands at these corners of Arthedain. Right now it didn't feel so cozy or welcoming but it was better than trying to set a camp to the open moors and being at the mercy of the wind coming to them at full force.

After they had set the camp and eaten by the fire they started to discuss - and all the Day's thoughts they had kept to themselves were poured out in just a few hours.

Rune made himself the Captain even if there were voices of distrust - and finally they decided to lynch Hakon... or Rune. But as Rune had more votes for being the Captain than being the lynched one it was going to be Hakon then.

Fea, Greenie, Inzil and Mac started gathering around Hakon asking him to do the decent thing and die honourably by his own sword.

"I will not make this easy for you!" Hakon shouted. "I'll get that preposterous traitor-Rune even if I have to die for it!"

But that didn't get the desired effect. On the contrary three more Rangers joined the four coming for him.

"He's our Captain you know..." Boro remarked.

"A Ranger doesn't offend his Captain!" Valier added.

"Not to talk of killing him..." Loslote confirmed.

"We know you've been carrying a grudge towards him since the battle of the plantations but you should really consider yourself" Inzil tried to appease the furious Hakon.

"No! Rune, your time has come!" Hakon yelled and ran towards the newly chosen Captain who draw his sword as well. The others tried to stop Hakon but he fought his way through the others and ran his sword into Rune's chest. At the same moment four blades cut into his flesh and he died falling on top of Rune.

For a moment it was silent but then Rune moved a little under Hakon's body and moaned quietly.

No it was not a moan. It was a howl. A death-howl to be more precise.

The Living:

Fea
Nienna
Inzil
Sally
Macalaure
Kath
Loslote
Valier
Greenie
Nerwen
Roa
Lommy
Boro
Legate
Gwath
Brinn

The Dead:

Nogrod (mod) - turned into a werewolf and butchered on N1.
Hakon (The Master Hunter) - stuck dead on D1
Rune (Werewolf) - killed from the sword of the Master Hunter at the end of D1

Nogrod

09-22-2009, 04:51 PM

Anyway, it's Night2 now.

The rangers should send me their picks if they've not already done it.

The hunters should feel free to change their targets if they wish.

The wolves should go on with their planning.

The Cobbler should send me who to distract.

The Night-guards Boro and Valier can PM together if they wish during the Night.

Legate - as the new Captain can choose two people (not Boro or Valier) to discuss with toNight. Send me a PM to tell me who they are Legate but feel free to start discussing right now if you wish.

The one not getting any sleep will get a PM from me in a minute...

Sleep well all.

Nerwen

09-23-2009, 02:19 AM

I have read your topic. What's useful innformation for my job.
I do agree with you. Those are the most effective way
have a blessed day

Oh good, good. I think I speak for the rest of the village when I say we're so glad to have helped you in your chosen career of Werewolf Slaying Ranger!

And I agree with you! Killing werewolves is the most effective way to deal with them!

So you're liposuctioning them to death, are you?

Nogrod

09-23-2009, 04:00 PM

The Night was not quiet. The wind didn’t stop as it usually did and the snow that seemed to penetrate every protection forced the rangers to wrap themselves tightly inside their blankets to get even an eyeful of sleep. Legate, Nienna and Fea were sitting as a group around a small fire while Boro and Valier tried to stay warm by walking in circles farther outside the camp trying to listen for any foul voices from the darkness.

At the evil hour just before the Daybreak three forms emerged from the darkness surrounding one of the sleepers, careful to avoid any eyes that could catch them in their mischief.

“Ready?” one hissed to his fellows.

“Ready…” another whispered back. The third one nodded.

The two revealed their flashing teeth in the darkness while the third jumped to their victim. He went for the head and jerked it violently forcing a cloth into his mouth and pressing his mouth shut with the crook of his arm. At the same time the two sank their teeth into his flesh ripping chunks out from the body. The victim was kicking and trying to wrestle himself out from the hold of the third wolf but to no avail. He was being eaten alive…

Suddenly there was an unwanted noise and all werewolves froze. Someone was walking there, too near. The three exchanged a quick look and disappeared back into the blizzard.

Macalaure had passed out for a second but as he shortly came back to his senses he yelled from pure horror and pain. It was not a nightmare, it was real! For a second he couldn’t believe it – but the pain reminded him of the reality. He was panting heavily. And then he snapped.

Disregarding the pain he stood up bleeding terribly, his bowels hanging out from his stomach.

“You don’t sneak to old Mac like that unpunished!” he bellowed and started determinately forwards carrying his unsheathed sword with him.

Many had awoken and the rest were awakening to the carnage.

“Inziladun! You coward! Fight like a man!” Mac continued and tried to hurry as he felt his powers to diminish. “I know you beast!”

A ranger had gotten near enough and tried to halt Macalaure but with his berserk rage no one could stop him – even if half of his innards were just following him in the snow behind him. With a powerful sweep of his arm he pushed the intruder away and reached Inzil who was just trying to rise up and grab his sword.

“Now here’s the return-ticket!” he yelled enraged as he cut Inzil’s head off with one blow.

There were four rangers leaping forwards to stop him and they managed to fell him down. But there was nothing for them to stop anymore. Mac was dead.

And Inzil was dead as well. Unchanged.

The blood coloured the snow but there was no sunrise to paint the colours.

The Living:

Fea
Nienna
Sally
Kath
Loslote
Valier
Greenie
Nerwen
Roa
Lommy
Boro
Legate
Gwath
Brinn

The Dead:

Nogrod (mod) - turned into a werewolf and butchered on N1.
Hakon (The Master Hunter) - stuck dead on D1.
Rune (Werewolf) - killed from the sword of the Master Hunter at the end of D1.
Macalaure (The Berserk Hunter) - eaten alive by the werewolves on N2.
Inzil (Ordinary Innocent) - decapitated by the Berserk Hunter on N2.

It's Day2 now.

Feel free to talk everyone.

All the Night-talkers... stop PMing.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-23-2009, 04:05 PM

Gruesome.

Boromir88

09-23-2009, 04:06 PM

That's freaky, I was telling Val, Mac was my #1 suspect because of his responses towards Rune. Well...there goes my Day 2 opening post.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 04:07 PM

Hakon, if you were alive, I’d kiss you. I have to say, I laughed out loud when I saw the results of Day 1. On the one hand- yay, for the Master Hunter, you really saved us. On the other hand, we all managed to lynch a gifted and vote a wolf into the captaincy.
Anyways, now we have a lot to analyze. Based on yesterday, the people who defended Rune and the people who lynched Hakon are in my sights. “But Roa,” you say, “do you really think the wolves would try to defend each other? Isn’t that rather obvious?”
Why, yes, it is, and so is a wolf outright declaring that we should make him captain. And if they thought they had a shot at captaincy, they surely would try for it. Would they risk their potential captain by trying to lynch him? I really don’t think so. They may not have voted him for captain directly, but they probably played down his suspicious behavior. Then again, they may have gambled and voted for him. After all, there was no way they could know Hakon was the Master Hunter. So anyone who voted for Hakon, especially after Rune started gaining in the votes, is also suspicious.
At this point, Boromir is still high on my list. And people who voted for Hakon.
My analysis is starting with those three. Legate, if you could please tell us who you picked as BG, and why?
Also, I want to vote for a new captain today. With Nogrod’s clarification of the rules, I feel even more strongly that we should change captains regularly. Merely deciding a tie is not nearly as powerful as canceling the lynch or changing the lynchee to someone else with one less vote. Keeping that power out of everyone’s hands is better for the village than risking the wolves’ getting it. Imagine if Rune had had that power? Not that I don’t trust you, Legate (I don’t), but I call for a captain vote.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 04:10 PM

Ah, I see the narration answered my question to Legate as for who he picked. Why those two?

Valier

09-23-2009, 04:11 PM

Wow indeed
Guess you were way off Boro
I must say also that I was quite surprised at Rune being a wolf.
The wolves had the first might to make a plan and I'm sure it was a good one.

Rune hates being a wolf and always seems to get killed early if he is one I believe.
So I am sure he planned to try and take control by insisting he be the captain. Do you think the wolves planned to be all loud or do you think they are all going to play different roles in the village? Hmmmm I'm going to look at the people who were against Rune being captain because I am sure there is at least one wolf in there if not two.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-23-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm probably wrong because this is gut instinct instead of logical conclusion, but I'd really like to lynch Valier today. Something about her posts seems really synthetic.

Valier

09-23-2009, 04:16 PM

synthetic how? I'm just as baffled as everyone else at Day 1 events.
I understand that Rune kinda put me into the spotlight early on, but I figured he was just being Rune, but now I think he may have been trying to frame me a bit...(bugger:p)

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 04:21 PM

Hmmmm I'm going to look at the people who were against Rune being captain because I am sure there is at least one wolf in there if not two.

Do you really think they would risk it if they thought he could win captain?

Valier

09-23-2009, 04:25 PM

I find when I was a wolf the best plan was to have a wolf in each category, ie: one that goes againt his fellow wolves, one that follows their leads, one thats loud, one thats quiet etc... you know, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

If the wolves already knew what Rune was planning, I am sure they would have planned to have one wolf at least be against him and accuse him of wolfishness to make themselves look good.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-23-2009, 04:26 PM

All right, hm, I guess this Berserk episode slightly changed the balance again in contrary to yesterDay's rather succesful (despite the death of Hakon) aftermath. I mean, I would have considered yesterDay as quite a lucky turn of events, because it seemed evident that Rune would probably have remained alive and unlynched as the fact that he'd become a Captain would save him. So all in all, Hakon did a really good job. A pity, I might add now, that Mac hasn't been so succesful himself.

However! That could bring us to some clarifications here. At least as to better determine the position of the Wolves. Though quite likely, if I were one of them, I would choose the kill in the attempt to leave as little trail as possible - given that there is already one dead Wolf, which might serve us as guideline to others. But let's see.

I guess we should check Mac's posting yesterDay, if there's any reason why he would be killed OR why he would NOT BE FEARED TO be killed - and also the Rune-Captain-voters (that probably the most of all). I have been discussing this matter already a bit with my chosen bodyguards toNight and we basically agreed that it makes sense for the WWs to have tried to put Rune into the leading position, at least one of them could likely vote for him. Maybe? In any case, the probably most "guiltily" voting person, Inzil (votes for Rune-Captain and for Hakon's lynch) is dead, and it's quite easy, I believe, to see Mac's logic behind this. I would have thought in the same way, likely. But I think it's certainly good to take a look at the others.

I really don't want to stay awake here for a long time, as I need to get up at some reasonable time tomorrow and it's already quite late here, but I hope at least something will be left here for you to evaluate. And maybe my BGs could tell you, if you wish to know, of some things we have discussed over the Night (though there's nothing too big. And I can speak of my impressions about them later during the Day). And in case somebody didn't figure that out of the narration, Fea and Nienna were my BGs toNight.

Btw. One topic to ponder (after other things, but just to say it before I am gone) - as I figured out, the Captain really can adjust his lynch-stopping powers only on the second Day of his Captainship, if he is still in office, so... do you folks want to change your Captain, or are you fine with keeping me at least one more Day (it would also help me to kind of make a better picture of things, being able to pick more BGs on the next Night) and then just see? Of course it's all the matter of how much you trust me etc., but even for further "usage" of the Captains, I have been thinking that given how the rules are, it would perhaps be better to just have them for at least these two consecutive Days. So one more thing you can think of or discuss or ponder while I am not around.

I will probably check back yet in a short while, but I'm really going to sleep in some fifteen minutes now.

EDIT: ugh, x-ed with already a score of people

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 04:31 PM

Boromir- He goes first because I suspected him first.

Post 1 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611056&postcount=4)- banter

Post 2 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611063&postcount=11”)- seems to think being an NG or BG saves you from lynching, more banter

Post 3 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611066&postcount=14”)- banter

(This post I found irksome, as he was clearly present but refusing to actually participate.)

Post 4 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611076&postcount=24”)- Excuses Rune’s bid for power as Rune being Rune. [i](Oh, really?) Now infamous questioning of Fea’s motives (My first reason for suspecting him), quote contest (wrong forum)

(Say what you will, to me it looked like a wolf trying to sew suspicion and then back-pedaling later when it started to go bad for him.)

Post 5 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611093&postcount=40”)- Further expounds upon what he’s “not convinced” about with Fea (I still have no idea what he was trying to get at) says he’s going to pick a captain either on who he trusts or on whoever jumps through the most hoops for him

(You would give away the role of captain on such flimsy grounds as who’s willing to please you?)

Post 6 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611113&postcount=52”)- Response to Roa’s questions, says that asking for clarification on a comment is not a crime, (That didn’t actually answer the question I asked. I asked what he thought Fea could possibly be up to by using his name to dumb her retractables. He never came up with anything.) Says he would consider Nerwen because she got his question right, along with Rune. (Now I have to wonder if he intended to vote for Rune all along. Was Nerwen ever really in the running, or was it all a ploy? Why was he considering Rune? As far as I’ve read, no one else was seriously considering Rune for captain except Rune. Boromir was the one who really started pulling for him.) Explains that his quote was about him being unconvinced, says Legate misrepresented the situation, (which I don’t think Legate did), and that he’s dropped the issue about Fea already, and now is simply responding to people asking him about it (Again, this looks very much like a wolf back-peddling after a plan went bad)

Post 7 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611120&postcount=59”)- explains absence

Post 8 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611133&postcount=70”)- Asks Roa if she’s tense, thinks Roa is blowing the Fea thing out of proportion, compares Fea’s comment to someone trying to claim that a bandwagon is not a bandwagon, thinks Fea has something up her sleeve (I still don’t see what his thought process was for this, and he has yet to come up with a plausible scheme for Fea to have been trying) thinks Roa isn’t looking at it from his perspective, assumes that he was picked for a reason (there is no basis for this claim) asks Nogrod for rule clarification

Post 9 ("http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611152&postcount=88”)- Agrees with Legate about band-wagoning on minor issues (of course) says to vote for him if we find him suspicious, says he won’t be the worst loss for the village, says he has been answering the questions, even though the answers may not be satisfactory, says Fea has a history of wanting him dead early, and he wants to know why in this game (Firstly, Fea has made no attempts on him in this game. She didn’t even use lynch votes to dump her retractables, she used captain/guard votes. There is no reason to assume that Fea wants him dead.)

Post 10 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611159&postcount=95”)- Votes Rune for Captain and Inzil for NG (He started the vote for Rune as captain because he liked Rune’s campaign speech? Not on someone you’d trust or want to protect, but you give the most powerful role into the village to someone just because he wants it?)

Post 11 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611164&postcount=100”)- Says it doesn’t matter if a gifted is made NG, BG, or captain, because then they’re protected even if they can’t do their jobs (What is the point of having gifted if they don’t do anything? That only benefits the wolves)

Post 12 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611173&postcount=109”)- Clarification on rules

Post 13 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611184&postcount=118”)- explanation on highlighting

Post 14 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611187&postcount=121”)- Thinks Val is a wolf, quotes Valier bantering with Fea (Was that your evidence against Valier?)

Post 15 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611196&postcount=130”)- Admits that his suspicion against Valier is only a hunch based on her light attitude throughout the day (Is Valier ever otherwise?), says no one has had any decent reason for suspecting anyone except Roa (An odd statement) but thinks he does now (didn’t he just say that he didn’t?), says we need more suspicions in the village instead of letting Roa do all the work (a statement I agree with)

Post 16 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611210&postcount=144”)- Admits that he was silly to start with, but says that Valier has been excessively so (He excuses Rune-wolf’s bid for power Rune being Rune, but suspects Valier for being Valier) says Roa should relax herself and not work so hard (I appreciate the thought, but it’s not needed. For all my complaints, I love the way I play the game.) Says he’s named people he wants to keep and people he suspects, and has spoken with his votes (Again, sorry for upsetting you, I’m well aware of your opinions, and I can’t fault your activity level. It’s your reasoning I disagree with or don’t follow, and that raises red flags in my mind.)

Post 17 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611216&postcount=150”)- Agrees with Valier

Post 18 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611253&postcount=184”)- Accepts Roa’s apology (thank goodness) doesn’t like Nerwen’s vote for him, says he hasn’t made a big deal out of the Fea thing but has only been defending himself (This much is true, and it gives me some pause. I may have a look at Nerwen again)

Post 19 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611273&postcount=200”)- Thinks Rune’s bid for captain has also been blown out of proportion, doesn’t like the vague words being used, says just because you don’t think someone would be a good captain doesn’t mean they’re a wolf. (Actually, the only things in my mind that make a “bad” captain are lack of availability and being suspicious. If I think someone’s a wolf I don’t want them to be captain. If I don’t think someone is a wolf, I do want them to be captain, unless they can’t be there for it, which again, gives me pause to think over the people who didn’t find Rune suspicious, but also didn’t vote for him as captain.)

Post 20 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611276&postcount=203”)- Says that if the wolves lynch him it would cost them, but agrees that he shouldn’t be NG. (This looks like a really obvious gifted hint, which a real gifted wouldn’t make)

Post 21 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611281&postcount=208”)- clarifies that the vague words comments were directed towards Sally, Lommy, Nienna, and Kath, open defense of Rune (an innocent move or a wolf making a gamble? An innocent has no reason to trust anyone at this point, and the points against Rune are viable and legitimate, so why try to disprove them? Also, Valier made no claim about wanting to be captain, so I don’t know what he’s getting at, except to say there isn’t a conspiracy. As there are wolves in the village working together to bring the village down, I would say that of course there’s a conspiracy.) Says that using connection at this point are premature.

Post 22 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611293&postcount=219”)- Says he wasn’t making a gifted hint, but that it’s difficult for people to lynch him, and anyone who’s involved in his lynch gets in a tight spot. (That’s true for any innocent who’s lynched, easily or not)

Post 23 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611303&postcount=229”)- agrees that he doesn’t want to see Rune lynched, but wonders why Valier and Mac feel the same (Why didn’t you want to see Rune lynched?)

Post 24 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611317&postcount=242)- Votes Lommy for lynch (Wow, that came out of the blue) because she says he’s not acting like himself and she finds him suspicious, but isn’t sure about lynching him. (He keeps suspecting people who suspect him on what he calls poor reasoning. Either he’s being paranoid and egotistical, or… no, paranoid and egotistical fits the bill quite nicely here ;) )

Post 25 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611321&postcount=246”)- Wonders why Sally is a last minute bandwagon choice. (Sally didn’t even get a vote, so I don’t know what he’s talking about.)

Post 26 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611326&postcount=251”)- Thinks Lommy is setting herself up to vote for him when the timing is right.

Post 27 (”http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611332&postcount=256”)- Says he hasn’t suspected Roa for suspecting him because he sees logic and reasoning in her arguments (Thankyou, so do I.) Says Lommy has said the same thing about him 3 times. (This is true, and I see his point in it. But the Lommy I know is almost always hesitant with her votes.)

End of Day 1. I must say, I appreciate the volume of his posts and his level of activity. Some of the things he’s said I really can’t argue with, and some of the things he’s said has drawn me to look at other people. Still, some of what he’s said has had very poor reasoning or no reasoning at all. And he never mentioned why he wanted Rune to be captain so badly other then Rune wanted it. The fact that Rune wanted it was suspicious, and his method of trying to get it was suspicious, but Boromir excused all of his behavior as “Typical Rune” while not extending the same courtesy to Valier (who’s always light hearted) or Lommy (who could start a restaurant with all of her waffles). I’d like to hear why he threw his support so squarely behind Rune-wolf on such poor reasoning, not just wanting him as captain but trying to keep him from being lynched. And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn’t been for that pesky hunter Hakon!

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-23-2009, 04:34 PM

Ah, I see the narration answered my question to Legate as for who he picked. Why those two?
Quite simple, for several reasons, one of them was kind of "ruling out" method, which was probably one of the main points, and those two were ones which I would have considered at the same time a) innocent-ish enough to talk to, b) interesting enough to wish to talk to them more and see them interact also in private, and all of that. That's basically it.

I find when I was a wolf the best plan was to have a wolf in each category, ie: one that goes againt his fellow wolves, one that follows their leads, one thats loud, one thats quiet etc... you know, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

If the wolves already knew what Rune was planning, I am sure they would have planned to have one wolf at least be against him and accuse him of wolfishness to make themselves look good.

This makes sense, but let's not forget that such approach would assume also one basket among the supporters. The rest could have been basically quite random.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 04:35 PM

Also, I have a paper to finish and a quiz to prep for, but I'll be back soon. With more analysis. :D

(BTW- the paper I have to write is for class teaches us how to use logical argument to prove our own points as well as to debunk the points of others. Yes, I'm loving it.)

Edit: crossed

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-23-2009, 05:28 PM

I find when I was a wolf the best plan was to have a wolf in each category, ie: one that goes againt his fellow wolves, one that follows their leads, one thats loud, one thats quiet etc... you know, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

On the contrary, I find that the best tactic for wolves is to behave exactly like they'd normally behave. A quiet player remains quiet, a brazen player remains brazen. If declaring that he wanted to be Captain because it would be fun and he likes attention seemed out of character for Rune, do you really think he'd have been voted in?

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 05:28 PM

Btw. One topic to ponder (after other things, but just to say it before I am gone) - as I figured out, the Captain really can adjust his lynch-stopping powers only on the second Day of his Captainship, if he is still in office, so... do you folks want to change your Captain, or are you fine with keeping me at least one more Day (it would also help me to kind of make a better picture of things, being able to pick more BGs on the next Night) and then just see? Of course it's all the matter of how much you trust me etc., but even for further "usage" of the Captains, I have been thinking that given how the rules are, it would perhaps be better to just have them for at least these two consecutive Days. So one more thing you can think of or discuss or ponder while I am not around.

Really? The rule clarification just makes me want to move captains along more. An innocent captain still stands a chance of fouling things up (and if we're going to foul the lynch up, we may as well foul it up as a village, and not leave the decision up to one person), a gifted captain wouldn't be able to use their abilities, and a wolf captain with that kind of power would be truly devastating. No, thank you. Decide a tie, but more than that is too dangerous.

Edit: crossed

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 05:30 PM

On the contrary, I find that the best tactic for wolves is to behave exactly like they'd normally behave. A quiet player remains quiet, a brazen player remains brazen. If declaring that he wanted to be Captain because it would be fun and he likes attention seemed out of character for Rune, do you really think he'd have been voted in?

Again, true, but they still want to try for the situation that gives them the best advantage.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-23-2009, 05:31 PM

++Roa as New Captain

Because she speaks such lovely sense.

Nienna

09-23-2009, 05:40 PM

Fea, my love, I cannot figure you out.

Nienna

09-23-2009, 05:49 PM

In my opinion we should either stick with Legate or go without a captain. I think switching a captain daily would be sort of a waste.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-23-2009, 05:54 PM

I think we'd be better off without a Captain, but that would be kind of like a Republic game without a filibuster. If the mod says we can do it, who are we to choose not to?

And so, limit the power. Checks and balances.

If we switch Captains, we can keep any one person from gaining too much power.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 06:06 PM

*sigh* Having read the Admin thread, just forget everything I said about Boromir.

(all that work wasted!)

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 06:09 PM

In my opinion we should either stick with Legate or go without a captain. I think switching a captain daily would be sort of a waste.

The captain still decides ties. But to have one person able to cancel the lynch or change who gets lynched, especially if that person may be a wolf, is dangerous.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 06:21 PM

The people who voted to lynch Hakon are: Fea, Greenie, Inzil, and Mac. Mac and Inzil are known to be innocents, so that leaves Fea and Greenie

The people who voted Rune for captain are: Boro, Valier, Loslote, Rune (:rolleyes:), and Inzil. Rune and Inzil are dead, so that leaves Boro, Valier, and Loslote.

People who tried to reason in favor of Rune, but did not vote him as captain: Legate (post 180, 191, 207, 222), Greenie (post 215), Mac (post 197, 220), Lommy (post 185, 236)

Greenie shows up on two lists. And Legate does a lot of very subtle "Rune's probably innocent" suggestions with out committing.

Edit: fixed smiley

Loslote

09-23-2009, 07:33 PM

Fea - nothing outstanding.

Nienna - still unsure about her...her actions are a bit off, but I'm not certain that she's wolfish...

Valier - she doesn't seem to be willing to commit to a position. I find her a bit suspicious.

Roa - hasn't done anything that screamed suspicious to me.

Lommy - I didn't see anything suspicious.

Legate - didn't vote for captain, but ended up with the job anyway.

That's not everyone, but that's all I have any thoughts on. :)

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 07:37 PM

So, Loslote, why did you vote Rune for captain? Was it only because you didn't think he was a wolf?

Edit: Bad grammar

Loslote

09-23-2009, 07:41 PM

That, and (since I don't know you guys super well yet) he seemed like someone would would be willing to make decisions without worrying about the reaction. :rolleyes:

Nerwen

09-23-2009, 10:02 PM

Back. Reading.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 10:02 PM

Legate

Post 1- Likes that Roa gets straight to the point, has nothing against being Captain or NG, agrees that we should choose carefully, points out that NG’s are somewhat random

(A sensible first post, mostly agreeing with what’s been said.)

Post 2- Agrees with Nerwen that a wolf as captain could be devastating (if you think that, why would you want to keep Captains for 2 days in a row?), thinks that the wolves would approach the situation subtly (I missed that one in the list of posts that plays down the suspicious nature of Rune’s actions.) Doesn’t understand the Fea/Boro thing, is pressed for time

Post 3- Explains his reaction to the Fea/Boro thing, doesn’t get what Boro was on about, but doesn’t see it as suspicious. Thinks people should let it be. Thinks that wolves would pick on Fea for her actions, but also thinks wolves would pick on Boromir.

(So which is it? If you think that the wolves would pick on Fea, and Boromir tries to pick on Fea, by your reasoning it’s fair to find him suspicious. But to find him suspicious for doing something you said a wolf would do is also something a wolf would do? You contradicted yourself within the space of two sentences.)

Post 4- Says he could join Roa in questioning Boromir, doesn’t think it’s odd that Roa finds Boromir suspicious (So continuing with your line of reasoning, a wolf might pick on Fea, or a wolf might pick on Boromir for picking on Fea. Boromir is picking on Fea, but it’s not suspicious. I’m picking on Boromir for picking on Fea, but I’m not suspicious. You post things that sound reasonable, but your reasoning doesn’t go anywhere.) Is concerned about how easily this could turn into a bandwagon, and wants people to approach it with a clear head, it could be easy for the wolves to turn into a bandwagon, but bad for them if Boromir is a wolf. (So the bandwagon would make it easy on the wolves… unless Boromir was a wolf. You keeping coming down on both sides of the issue. This is really very careful.) Doesn’t want to talk more until more people are around, has a very preliminary idea about Nerwen (guilty or for captain?)

(A lot of talking without really saying anything)

Post 5- Joke about his revelation about Nienna, says the dynamic of his thinking is what it came to, asks Nienna if she’s a wolf

Post 6- Agrees that a wolf would pick on Fea, and a wolf would pick on Boro for picking on Fea, thinks that more evidence should be in before voting on it, agrees that Roa is being quite reasonable, thinks it would be best for the villagers to start showing up and talking, response to Nienna, thinks it’s good to vote someone quiet for the NG

(I can see his point about wanting more evidence. I most certainly did. I still think he was reasoning in circles.)

Post 7- explains to Valier about his question to Nienna

(Again, I can see his reasoning here.)

Post 8- Explains to Valier why we should vote a quiet person as NG: likely wolf kills, bringing people more into the game, they have to change daily

Post 9- Asks Iniz to clarify why he wants Boro to be NG, explains why he chose to ask Nienna about her guilt, didn’t think anything odd about her reply, clarification about rules

(I didn’t get what he was trying with Nienna- wolves and innocents both have a wide range of responding to that question, so I don’t know what he would prove with it)

Post 10- More rules clarification

Post 11- Thinks Rune is acting strangely, but doesn’t think he’s a wolf, asks Fea for reasons for her votes

(I must say, I’m with Boromir on the use of “strange,” “odd,” and “weird.” It’s terribly non-committal. If you think someone is acting strangely, why wouldn’t you suspect them?)

Post 12- Presses Fea about her vote for Hakon, wonders if she thinks his message has anything to do with someone being a wolf (Obviously him. I don’t see what he’s getting at. Surely he could go and see for himself. It’s like he’s looking for a wagon ride.) Thinks he will support Nerwen for something, says Nienna is okay looking, thinks Rune, Boro, and Hakon are weird, but not suspicious (How are they weird, and why doesn’t that make them suspicious?) Is worried about Inzil, but it’s a gut feeling, Valier looks mischevious but could be innocent, Lommy is slightly disturbing but really only if she Hakon are wolves, most people haven’t posted enough. Doesn’t have a clear picture on votes

(Of course there is no clarity in your votes, everything you’ve said in terms of suspicion is “Well, it could be suspicious, but it might not be." You have a lot of words to really say nothing.)

Post 13- Agrees that we should change the captain regularly. Except if we find a foolproof captain, of course, thinks the captain role could help protect the village.

(“We might do this, but we could also do the opposite.” Your posts are all starting to sound the same in your lack of any concrete opinion. Being overly cautious is as bad as being rash.)

Post 14- More excuses for Rune’s behavior, doesn’t think a wolf-Rune would try for captain so obviously (We see how that turned out) still won’t vote him for captain

(You seem really convinced of Rune’s innocence at this point, so why wouldn’t you want him to be captain? Wouldn’t you want someone you believed to be innocent as captain?)

Post 15- Doesn’t want Rune to be captain, but doesn’t want him lynched, thinks the other options aren’t much better. Doesn’t to lynch Loslote cause he’s new, may choose Brinn or Roa for NG

(I thought you wanted someone quiet for NG. I’m the loudest person here. Why me?)

Post 16- explains to Lommy why he wants someone quiet as the NG, clears up rules

Post 17- Disagrees with Lommy, says Kath’s vote looks fine, but doesn’t to kill Valier since she hasn’t been in a game for a while.

(Of all the votes going on, why should he feel the need to comment on this one?)

Post 18- Suddenly thinks that lynching Lommy is a good idea, since Boro voted for her… because she’s weird

(A. Lommy looked like Lommy to me, and B. So Rune being weird isn’t suspicious, but Lommy being weird is. But only after Boromir pointed it out. What, you didn’t think the Hakon bandwagon would take off so you looked for a different one?)

Post 19- Wonders about who to vote for NG since Brinn seems secure

(Brinn wasn’t secure, she wasn’t even in 2nd place. And did you just say “Gosh”?)

(Not that the use of Gosh is suspicious, I just haven’t heard anyone use it since I was in middle school.)

Post 20- Thinks Lommy maybe “emotionally blackmailing” people out of lynching her (I see what you were saying, but she had a good point- arguing against being called weird is pretty much impossible) Votes Nienna NG

(Why Nienna? She wasn't the most quiet)

Post 21- Votes Lommy “But that Rune. Agh. And captain, blah.”

(I’m not sure what you were saying. Confused at Rune’s behavior? Upset that he was made captain? For the first, why not suspect him, then, and for the second, why be upset if you thought him innocent?)

Post 22- Thanks Day 1 ended luckily for us, a pity that Mac wasn’t as successful, thinks Mc’s death might lend us some clues, but also might have been a trail-less kill (There you go again.) Thinks we should look at why Mac may have been killed or why he wouldn’t have been feared as a kill. Also thinks we should look at Rune captain voters, says he and the BG’s agree that a wolf probably voted to put Rune into the lead, points out that the most guiltily voting person was dead, and doesn’t fault Mac for his choice. Will give his impressions of his BG’s later, suggests that maybe we should keep the captain two days so the captain can gain full power

(YesterDay, you said that the role of captain was dangerous, and that we should keep it limited. Now you’ve changed your mind?)

Post 23- Explains his reasoning for his BG picks. Response to Valier, says we still should look at Rune’s supporters.

(Some of what he says is very reasonable, most is only reasonable sounding, while firmly keeping from saying anything concrete. I don't like the way he kept insisting on Rune's innocence while maintaining the appearance of not trusting him.)

Edit: fixed formatting. Also, how is it that no one posts for sevral hours, but as soon as I hit send reply, I've crossed posted with someone?

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 10:16 PM

I'm going to bed. I'd be interested to hear what the night talkers thought of each other. And a look at those other people who walked the line between insisting Rune's innocence and not openly supporting him for captain. Legate did this more than anyone, but Greenie did it as well as vote to lynch Hakon, she's next when I get back, unless someone beats me to it.

Roa_Aoife

09-23-2009, 10:17 PM

Also, let's not wait till the end of the Day for everyone to start talking, please.

Nienna

09-23-2009, 10:29 PM

As one of the night talkers (I was a BG with Fea if anyone missed that) I am pretty trusting of Legate at the moment. With every that he said and the way that he said it I trust him. I know its hard for you all to go on something like that but I don't really know how to articulate it better than that. Fea is a little more problematic. She is on my 'unsure' list. She said some things that make me suspect her and some things that make me think she's innocent. Bah.

I greatly appreciate Roa's analysis but I beg the village to do their own analysis and come to their own conclusions as there is always the possibility that Roa has a role (wolf or cobbler) that would taint her version... or she could just be seeing one thing while someone else is seeing another.

I'm going to sleep now but I should be around more tomorrow morning (my time) for analysis and such.

Valier

09-23-2009, 10:36 PM

I too am off to bed. I do think we should let Legate be Captain today.I think hes been making alot of sense and I say we see what he can do. I'll hopefully have time to post in the morning...if not I will definately be here a few hours before deadline.

satansaloser2005

09-23-2009, 10:59 PM

Here and have skimmed. (By the way, I was right about Rune. Go me!) Unfortunately, I'm kind of tired so I'm just going to shut off the computer for the night and see what I can do tomorrow. Tomorrow should be really laid back but I'm not making any promises, and I can almost guarantee a lack of analysis from me, but I'll do my best. Until then! :)

Nerwen

09-23-2009, 11:04 PM

R.I.P. Hunters–

Firstly, I'd like to say– well done, Hakon!

And too bad, Mac– but I don't blame you for thinking Inzi was a wolf. I was all ready to make a case on him toDay myself.:o

And now, my thoughts on the Rune situation.

Do you think the wolves planned to be all loud or do you think they are all going to play different roles in the village?

Generally I find smart wolves try not to change their usual playing style too much (unless they're pretending to be another role, like the cobbler). It's a bit of a giveaway.

If the wolves already knew what Rune was planning, I am sure they would have planned to have one wolf at least be against him and accuse him of wolfishness to make themselves look good.

Again, true, but they still want to try for the situation that gives them the best advantage.

Technically you're likely both right– that is, I doubt every single one of the villains would take the risk of openly supporting him. On the other hand, a were-captain would be such a help to the wolves that I can see them pushing for it pretty hard. And of course, with hindsight Rune's plan was evidently "hiding in plain view"... so it could be the wolves are deliberately trying to act atypically.

We'll know what Boro is toNight, which should help clarify things a bit.

The people who voted to lynch Hakon are: Fea, Greenie, Inzil, and Mac. Mac and Inzil are known to be innocents, so that leaves Fea and Greenie

The people who voted Rune for captain are: Boro, Valier, Loslote, Rune (:rolleyes:), and Inzil. Rune and Inzil are dead, so that leaves Boro, Valier, and Loslote.

What about the Night Guard votes? Did we ever get a Word-of-Mod on whether wolves are neutralised if they become Night Guards?

EDIT:X'd since Roa.

Brinniel

09-23-2009, 11:36 PM

Gah...so I just got a small job that requires me to be up no later than 7am, so what little time I had is even less. :rolleyes:

I admit I've not thoroughly read all of Day One; five pages is really a lot to catch up on. But I think I have the jist on what's happened. I don't understand how Rune managed to be elected captain yesterDay; if I were there I'd never let anyone who's begging for a role have it. Part of that is because I don't like letting people have their way. :p But also I don't care if what Rune did is typical for his behaviour; his campaign to get himself elected as captain just looked plain wolfish. True that surely a wolf or two did not vote him as captain to make them look better, but I'm sure at least one wolf did. Due to lack of time, I really won't be able to seek out strong suspicions, but I think the best place for me to start is by looking at the ones who did vote Rune for captain.

I could wait to vote until morning, but I worry I'll run out of time and not be able to so I'll probably just do it tonight...and soon. Again, I apologise for my poor participation (I'm thinking now I probably shouldn't have joined, but apparently I have this addiction problem :rolleyes: ), but I will be around a lot more toMorrow as it will be the weekend.

Brinniel

09-24-2009, 12:23 AM

Hmm...Rune had five votes. Of those voters, one was himself, one is dead, and one has dropped out. Which leaves Loslote and Valier. Loslote has done a few suspicious things, but I'm hesitant to be quick to vote her since she is new and I do not yet know her style. She is making a decent effort so I think I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt for toDay at least. And I'm not sure Val and Rune would interacted in the way they did if they were both wolves. It seems too obvious for them to do something like that, though I suppose anything is possible. So there goes my voting plan out the window...

So looking elsewhere... the only thing that did strike me toDay was Nerwen's latest post (right before my last post). The first few lines come off as unsincere and it rubs me the wrong way. Looking back at her posts from yesterDay, they rub me in the same way. Just bad vibes, really. Going solely off of vibes is a horrible way to vote, I know, especially when I haven't had the chance to look at most other players. But I'm out of time and really must be heading to bed so I can actually get some sleep.

++Lynch Nerwen

++Roa for Captain

Because I don't find her suspicious and her dedication has proven that she would do well in such a role.

++Kath for NG

Since she is quiet and has a tendency to get killed early.

If I have time, I may check in come morning, though no guarantees.

*passes out*

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 12:32 AM

So, I've tabled the votes for comparision purposes

Known innocents are in italics, known wolves are underlined.

BORO
Guard: Inzil
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Lommy

SALLY
Guard: Valier
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

GREENIE
Guard: No-one
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Hakon

INZIL (ORDO)
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Hakon

ROA
Guard: Brinn
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

NERWEN
Guard: Kath
Captain: Roa
Lynch: Boro

LOSLOTE
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Nienna

RUNE (WEREWOLF)
Guard: Valier
Captain: Himself!
Lynch: Legate

VALIER
Guard: Roa
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Loslote

FEA
Guard: Nienna
Captain: Roa
Lynch: Hakon

NIENNA
Guard: Roa
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

LOMMY
Guard: Valier
Captain: Roa
Lynch: Kath

HAKON (MASTER HUNTER)
Guard: Brinn
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

MAC (BERSERK HUNTER)
Guard: Kath (switched from earlier vote for Brinn)
Captain: Roa (switched from earlier vote for Kath)
Lynch: Hakon

LEGATE
Guard: Nienna
Captain: No-one
Lynch: Lommy

BRINNIEL
Didn't vote.

KATH
Didn't vote.

GWATHAGOR
Didn't vote.

All that voting to do and only two missed votes on Day One?:eek: EDIT:Wrong. Brinn didn't vote. EDIT2: Or Kath, or Gwath.

Hmmn... That was a lot of work, but I'm not sure how much can be deduced from it.

Of the living Rune-for-Captain voters (Loslote, Boro, Valier)–

One (Loslote) voted to Guard another (Boro).

One (Valier) voted to lynch another (Loslote). NB: This was the only vote cast on Loslote.

One (Valier) was guard-voted by Rune (wolf).

So, yes, there are quite a lot of connections between them– on the other hand Boro and Inzi would now appear strongly connected were the latter still alive.

EDIT:X'd with Brinn... who I'd forgotten about.
EDIT2:Put in entries for the non-voters.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 12:47 AM

Hmmn. I have no opinion on Brinn so far– I'd semi-forgotten she was playing– but I really don't like being voted for something as vague as "bad vibes".

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 01:21 AM

I just got up to date on toDay's posting. Nothing stands out to me at this point, but I'll be back in about 12 hours, at which point maybe I'll try digging a little deeper. Maybe. At least I'm not posting B.S. lists yet to fill out my post count.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:31 AM

The Collected Works of Macalaure

#197
The nightguards basically work as village-elected ranger protections, so I think it would make most sense to vote for two people who are likely to be killed during the first night. This means we can rule out Loslote, Valier, and Roa, since they're either new or haven't played in a long time, so it wouldn't be very nice for them to be killed right away. Although there are exceptions, the most common Night2-kills are either trailless (most likely), or with the intention to get rid of a dangerous opponent early. The latter is very difficult to predict for us, without knowledge of the wolves' identity, but the former we have a bit of a chance. Villagers who are mostly unhelpful shouldn't be protected, though - why protect someone who has a fair chance of becoming a problem to us? People who appear trailless to us (though, admittedly, other people might look trailless to the wolves), but are helpful (or promise to become helpful later) should be our guards.

On Day1, I would suggest a similar strategy for the captain, with the most suspicious individuals excepted. We don’t necessarily need the most innocent or most helpful or most talkative person in this role (not yet at any rate). Just someone who knows what he’s doing.

Candidates, in my opinion, are: Inzil, Kath, Gwath, Brinn, and Fea. (Nienna and Sally belong in there, too, but I find them suspicious.)

I'm tending towards Kath for captain, Brinn for guard.

Wolves:
I have barely an idea. My only real opinion of anyone is that Rune is neither wolf nor gifted. A wolf wouldn’t be so obvious, a gifted not so eager to be something special. Cobbler or ordo.
This is the reason, why Sally’s bandwaggon vote on Roa’s vote for him looks suspicious to me. Nienna’s vote looks as bad, and she did several things that make my radar ping badly, but by now I know from experience that that’s what she does when she’s innocent. So Sally ranks higher right now.

I don’t understand why it’s a problem if the same person is captain and lynched. The captain has the power to cancel the lynch, doesn’t he? Problem solved. But if the mod rules it otherwise, ok. ;)

#202 [Replying to Roa; subject is Runewolf]
I haven't played with him in a long time, so I wouldn't vote for him on Day1 just because there's a chance he's the cobbler. I absolutely do not endorse him for captaincy either, though.

#213
Votes Kath for Captain, Brinn for NG.

#220
Rune for captain, I'm not sure about that. Legate or Roa aren't my ideal choices either, but ok.
Valier or Roa for guard is a bad idea, since they are most likely not targets anyway. Boro is not much better. Out of the people who have guard-votes, I'd prefer Brinn, Kath, or Inzil.
Rune for lynch is a bad idea, too. Hakon, well, not sure how suspicious he is, but he hasn't been helpful so far, so it would at least not be the worst loss.

Not too happy with your choices so far, village.

#234
Says he doesn't think Rune is a wolf.

#237
Asks if Captain and NG votes are retractable.

#243
Retracts votes for Brinn and Kath, says he will vote for either Roa or Legate as Captain.

Votes to guard Kath.

Says he might lynch Hakon, but would lynch Sally or Nienna if there was more support for it.

#252
I agree that Lommy's comments about Boro are a bit strange, but... why would wolf-Lommy make them? Why try to grab the attention of such a vocal player needlessly? Boro is not really a strong lynch candidate.

#259
++Roa for captain

++Hakon

Explanations tomorrow.

So– here's Mac's recontructed suspicion list:

Suspicious: Sally, Nienna, Hakon.

Neutral: Boro, Fea, Valier, Boro, Lommy, Gwath, Inzil.

Innocent: Kath, Brinn, Roa, Legate, Rune.

(Didn't mention: Nerwen, Greenie, Loslote.)

Somebody earlier toDay called this a "no-trace" kill, but as you see it's anything but, except in the general sense that it points so many ways it arguably points nowhere all that strongly. The main thing it does is, obviously, make Sally and Nienna look bad and Kat, Brinn, Roa and Legate look good.

Considering his defence of a known wolf, though, I'm rather surprised the wolves didn't keep him alive and try to frame him.

EDIT:X'd with Gwath.
EDIT2:Added "didn't mention category to list.
EDIT3:fixed typo
EDIT:Added italics.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:33 AM

At least I'm not posting B.S. lists yet to fill out my post count.

You're not referring to my list up there, are you?

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 02:26 AM

Really? The rule clarification just makes me want to move captains along more. An innocent captain still stands a chance of fouling things up (and if we're going to foul the lynch up, we may as well foul it up as a village, and not leave the decision up to one person), a gifted captain wouldn't be able to use their abilities, and a wolf captain with that kind of power would be truly devastating. No, thank you. Decide a tie, but more than that is too dangerous.

Well, could be, of course. But my opinion is, if we have a Captain, why not to let him use his power fully. You asked whether I have changed my opinion, I didn't - the rules have changed, or rather, were clarified, so that it means Captain's full powers don't actually come into being if he is not there for two consecutive Days. Of course I still deem a Wolf-Captain will be dangerous. But he will be dangerous whether we choose him for one or two Days. And if we really don't like the person we have voted for, we can vote him away already on the second Day (of course for now, I have no problem with keeping myself on second Day. If I didn't trust myself, I would probably suffer serious problems). Also, if the Captain utilises his vote-change power, wouldn't that say a lot about him? Even if he is a Wolf and does something totally ridiculous with his vote-save, wouldn't he have to justify his actions later to the village? So no, even the Wolves are far from having a totally free ride of misusing power, unless they are totally "who cares" people. (Like Rune might have been, perhaps?)

The people who voted to lynch Hakon are: Fea, Greenie, Inzil, and Mac. Mac and Inzil are known to be innocents, so that leaves Fea and Greenie

The people who voted Rune for captain are: Boro, Valier, Loslote, Rune (:rolleyes:), and Inzil. Rune and Inzil are dead, so that leaves Boro, Valier, and Loslote.

People who tried to reason in favor of Rune, but did not vote him as captain: Legate (post 180, 191, 207, 222), Greenie (post 215), Mac (post 197, 220), Lommy (post 185, 236)

I am not sure what you mean by people "to reason in favour of Rune", but at least from my part, and I got the same feeling from the posts of all the others you name as well, it was just saying "I don't want Rune for Captain, but I am not comfortable with lynching him either". Mac himself said it quite plainly at one point, and he even thought Rune was definitely innocent, from what it seems to me. Not sure about the others, but to me, it was always just "I don't want Rune to be Captain for sure, but I don't want to lynch him either". That says it all and it's pretty simple, in my opinion. Speaking of that, and I can say it now that Rune is dead, also, personally, at one point I have been afraid that Rune might be a Berserk Hunter (or this Day-killing Hunter) and of course, given that he voted for me, I was worried that he might kill me if he is lynched - that is why I was hesitant in the end for doing anything about his Captainship (as that was something that might have prevented him from dying) or voting for him to be lynched. So you see, there were also personal reasons, where I did not feel comfortable with letting Rune die yet, at least until I get a better picture of him or his role.

To your question which you repeated several times, is it so hard to understand it? Somebody behaves weirdly, but not suspiciously. It does not seem, or make sense (that's what I thought about Rune, of course being mistaken, but that's another thing), or it does not necessarily mean (that's what I think about Boro) that he would be suspicious, or wolf-y. It's a completely different cathegory which has nothing to do with somebody being a Wolf or not.

As for other things. With Boro leaving for the Wilderness toDay, we are left with Valier and Loslote to look at on the list of Rune-Cap voters. With Hakon-lynch voters, I don't really suspect either of those left, at least in other things they didn't seem suspicious to me and also, like I already said to my BGs, I think it's quite easy to happen that innocents could pile up for bandwagon for lynch - probably easier than making Rune Captain. So I will now primarily focus on the Rune-Cap bandwagon, but I again ran out of time, so I need to save it for later.

I really have to leave now, will be back in several hours.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 06:20 AM

Lommy (who could start a restaurant with all of her waffles)Love you, Roa! :D

I love it how Roa can make anyone look suspicious or inconsistent by analysing them. However, I have to say that Legate is always thinking things rather thoroughly (and arguing in circles) but I must agree with Roa that he has been maybe a bit too careful even for himself. Personally, I don't see anything too bad about him - I'm sort of undecided as you can see - but I wouldn't want him as a Captain anymore.

Firstly, because he was never really even voted to be the Captain, he just became the Captain because the elected Captain happened to die (and I must say that surprised me because I - wrongly - assumed we'd be without a Captain in a case like that). Ok this might not be the best of reasons, especially as our elected Captain was a wolf, but still for the sake of democracy, I'd rather have someone really elected for the position (and of course that doesn't disinclude Legate being re-elected).

Secondly, and more importantly, because I don't think anybody should have power for too long. It's not only dangerous but also a bit useless. Legate had his chance to be protected and appoint people to PM with and talk with them, now let's give someone else to have the chance. (In a way, I see it as rather selfish to ask for another Day of Captaincy, or eyebrow-raising in the least.) The village benefits the more we have different people PMing and thus forming ideas of each other every Night. And like people have said, it's not good to have a wolf captain or a gifted captain, so it's safer to change them regularly.

And lastly, I don't trust Legate or his judgement so much that he'd my top choice for a Captain, so I will cast my wolf (I'm leaving that typo there because it was so funny, I of course meant "vote" :D) for someone I'd rather see as the Captain. (And don't interpret this as if I was discontent with Legate or his judgement or disapproving of stuff he's done this far, I would value him above the average in a choice for captaincy, but he's not my top choice now, especially as he's already been a Captain. I call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Legatum! :p)

I need to analyse and think of stuff more, but to me Mac appears as a sort of safe no trace kill, possibly suspected ranger (he was sort of innocentish yet rather refrained and careful, so I could see someone making that assumption). Of course, wolves need to watch out for the hunters in this game, but it's not so bad for them with the master hunter gone, so it does make to take Mac's opinion of people into account but maybe not too much. (This would make Sally and Nienna look more innocent and Kath, Brinn, Roa and Legate look more guilty. It is funny that Nerwen arrives to the opposite conclusion.)

Valier is looking rather bad right now. I agree with Fea that her posts don't look genuine at the moment, and her interactions with Rune were rather fishy.

And speaking of her - Valier, did you talk with Boro at all last Night? If yes, was there anything special you two came up with?

Also - would our Night talker like to come forwards and tell who did they PM with and what kind of impressions they got from each other? (Assuming that the Night talker and his/her companion are alive.)

As my last note - I'm around right now for at least another hour, but once I go I'm not sure if I can be back. I have work and then I'm going to go to a meeting of new Art History students so it might be that I won't be back before the DL. Sorry for not being around enough, but this week Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday have been just hectic and with my luck two of them have been ww Days...

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 06:29 AM

I'm considering voting Roa for Captain.

We need another Captain, and Roa happens to look relatively innocentish, have some support and be someone whose judgement I generally trust.

However, I'm worried if we should vote her. Why? Because I think it might be difficult to wrestle her out of that position of power. I think people would be generally happy with her leadership because she's so active and, well, charismatic, and seems to make a lot of chance. (later addition: <- meant "sense", not "chance"! what's the problem with my mind today? :confused: )

What's the problem with her staying in power if people are content with her captaincy? 1) The fact that she might be a wolf or a gifted. 2) One person shouldn't have too much power, especially if it's someone like Roa. 3) It's the most beneficial to have changing captains.

All this rambling aside, I will probably vote her for Captain, but I want people to think about this stuff.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 06:38 AM

++Nerwen for Night Guard

She could be anything. She gives me sort of cobblerish vibes, so I don't exactly mind taking her Nightly powers away.

She does not seem too wolvish that I'd be wary of protecting her for the Night, but she's definitely unsure enough on my list that I'd light to give her the scrutiny a Night's PM contact with another player can bring.

And if she's innocent, she's the sort of person who could make sharp observations about her PMing partner.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 06:49 AM

Of course, wolves need to watch out for the hunters in this game, but it's not so bad for them with the master hunter gone, so it does make to take Mac's opinion of people into account but maybe not too much. (This would make Sally and Nienna look more innocent and Kath, Brinn, Roa and Legate look more guilty. It is funny that Nerwen arrives to the opposite conclusion.)

You misunderstand me... or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I should have put the word "look" in italics or something. I was trying to work out what, if anything, Mac's death might have accomplished for the wolves. (i.e. I basically had the same conclusion as you.)

EDIT:X'd with Lommy's last post; added comment.
EDIT2:In fact I believe I will put it in italics.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 06:58 AM

You misunderstand me... or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I should have put the word "look" in italics or something. I was trying to work out what, if anything, Mac's death might have accomplished for the wolves. (i.e. I basically had the same conclusion as you.)By which did it accomplish that Sally and Nienna look more guilty? :confused:

In case it hasn't been phrased clearly enough by anyone toDay, I call for a Captaincy Vote. (Just to make an official statement, but I don't think it has to be done because people have already cast new captaincy votes.)

++Roa for Captain

Now I'm off to use my last half an hour or so for solely determining who's guilty.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 07:13 AM

Okay, a list:

Innocentish
Fea - she's difficult to judge, but for now she has been speaking so much sense that I feel more comfortable with her than with most
Nienna - seems genuine and Mac's death points at her innocence

Positive Middle
Sally - I'm rather unsure because she seems both innocent and guilty but neither to an overt extent, possibly leaning a bit to the innocent direction because of Mac's death, but I wouldn't want to make a hasty conclusion considering someone whom I'm so confused about
Roa - I know I said I think her innocentish and voted her for Captain but to trust Roa (especially as early as on Day2) is not something I'd do without reservations, so I'm putting her here instead of the innocentish category also to remind myself not to be lulled into false sense of security because of her general charisma and ability to make sense and good points
Legate - the more I talk about him, the more confused I get, but there's nothing too bad yet
Gwath - has been under my radar quite a lot but then again he seems perfectly okay when he posts

Negative Middle
Kath - I'm still vaguely uncomfortable with her but to be honest I must say she hasn't done anything incriminating
Greenie - she makes me uneasy because she's so sticking to what she always says about people (look at her list from yesterDay), but no actual alarm bells are ringing
Nerwen - like I said, no idea, but seems slightly cobblerish
Brinn - I have to confess she's been under my radar more or less completely, and that scares me

Guiltyish
Loslote - voted Rune for a Cap and I believe at least one fellow would've probably done so, otherwise nothing too bad
Valier - what I said about Los, and also the fact that her tone toDay does seem insincere, somewhat reminding me of past valierwolves

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-24-2009, 07:14 AM

Someone asked what the Night people thought of each other.

I didn't trust Legate at all. I currently trust him quite a lot more, but this stems from confusion with rules which I need to double check. Yet again. *grumbles about complicated rules* Once I have time (if I have time) I'll check on this and get back to you.

I am neutral about Nienna.

Either way, it's not hard to trace my feelings about Captain: I didn't vote for Legate, and first thing this Morning I voted for a different Cap. Sorry, LeDoor, you just don't have me convinced that you have the village's best interest at heart.

++Lommy as Guard

Curiosity.

I'm not sure how much I'll be around today. Things to do, places to go. I'll try to be around before deadline.

Note to self: *must* check those rules.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 07:17 AM

Haha, just realised my list is quite beautifully symmetrical. Nice. But it's good to notice I suspect half of the village at least a bit, because normally I have problems finding suspicious behaviour.

++Valier

is the best suspicion I have.

I might yet be back, and if I am I may change my vote if the situation or my opinions have changed. But for now it should be ok.

edit: xed with Fea - and thanks for the vote, I guess

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 07:25 AM

By which did it accomplish that Sally and Nienna look more guilty? :confused:

Yes– not meaning that they're actually gulity, but that it might be an attempt to make them look that way, though as a frame it would only be a weak one. EDIT: Is the point you're making that a lupine Sally or Nienna would have been too afraid to attack Mac, in case he was a Hunter? Sorry, I'm being rather dense at the moment. I'm tired.

As you see we're getting into double-triple-quadruple bluff territory now. That's the trouble: my hunch is that he was probably killed for a reason, rather than being a no-trace kill, but there's too many possible reasons.

I think it probably would be a good idea to switch Captains often, but I don't know about every Day. I think we could stick with Legate for another Day... I mean, your plan, Lommy, seems to be ensuring that the Captain never uses his full powers.

EDIT:X'd with two Lommys and one Fea.
EDIT2:Clarification.

Thinlómien

09-24-2009, 07:29 AM

Happened to come back and see Nerwen's post -

actually yes, I have nothing against having a Captain if it's someone whose judgement I trust (and there are all kinds of beneficial side-effects), but I don't want to have a fully powerful Captain: there's no one I'd like to give the right to potentially overrule the village's decision, not even myself.

Now I'm gone for good. Bye! :)

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 08:11 AM

All right, I'm here.

The people who voted to lynch Hakon are: Fea, Greenie, Inzil, and Mac. Mac and Inzil are known to be innocents, so that leaves Fea and Greenie

The people who voted Rune for captain are: Boro, Valier, Loslote, Rune (), and Inzil. Rune and Inzil are dead, so that leaves Boro, Valier, and Loslote.

People who tried to reason in favor of Rune, but did not vote him as captain: Legate (post 180, 191, 207, 222), Greenie (post 215), Mac (post 197, 220), Lommy (post 185, 236)

Greenie shows up on two lists. And Legate does a lot of very subtle "Rune's probably innocent" suggestions with out committing.
I am not sure what you mean by people "to reason in favour of Rune", but at least from my part, and I got the same feeling from the posts of all the others you name as well, it was just saying "I don't want Rune for Captain, but I am not comfortable with lynching him either".Yeah, Legate pretty much summed up what I was about to say about "trying to reason in favour of Rune". As for voting to lynch Hakon, my reasons were weak but the best I had. (And now, of course, I know they were wrong.) What I find interesting is that the Hakon-voters and the Rune-voters (I'm talking about lynch votes) actually had quite similar reasons for their suspicion ie. finding an open will to become Captain suspicious.

GREENIE
Guard: No-one
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Hakon Whoops, it seems I was really not at my best yesterDay seeing as I also forgot to vote for a Guard (and only noticed it now...) :o I promise to try harder toDay!

Greenie - she makes me uneasy because she's so sticking to what she always says about people (look at her list from yesterDay), but no actual alarm bells are ringingI know! That's always the problem with me, especially early in the game. For example, I don't think I'd be that lousy at reading Brinn if I wasn't so conscious of how bad I am at reading her... :rolleyes: As for seeing that as a sign of suspicion, well, all I can do is use the worst argument ever: that's what I always do, regardless of my role.

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 08:20 AM

Oh, and about the Captain: I'm fine with keeping Legate. I voted him for Captain in the first place because he seemed innocentish and sensible, and in addition to that I'd like to see what he does as Captain. I think what most of us have overlooked is that a player's actions as Captain can really tell a lot about the said player. I agree with what seems to be the general consensus that we should keep changing Captains regularly. I have nothing to say about the full Captain powers as I'm not convinced either way.

Also, I'm not entirely comfortable with having Roa as Captain. I think I already said something about this yesterDay. This has nothing to do with suspecting her (she's in the very middle of my no idea -category, in fact) nor with disliking her playing style (as I like it a lot). It's just that she's a very influential player already now, and I fear that if she was elected Captain this village might be in danger of becoming too much led by one person alone.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 08:31 AM

I agree with Greenie about captains.

Here is a quick analysis of Nerwen:

42 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611096&postcount=42). Answers one question from Boro’s quote, says we need to take the Captain thing seriously and is suspicious of those people who actively say they want to be captain

Wolf-Nerwen on Bold-Wolf-Rune? Doesn’t feel like it.

43 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611097&postcount=43). Doesn’t know what Fea and Boro are doing or why Fea shed her retractables

Popular opinions

96 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611160&postcount=96). Defends Fea’s use of her retractions on Boro, asks Legate why he picked me to ask about innocence and what he concluded.

Seems fine

128 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611194&postcount=128). Says the problem is that anyone who would make a good captain would also make a good were-captain. Votes Roa for captain as she has more leadership qualities than Rune, votes Kath for NG as it seems the wolves like to kill her off early

Both these seem reasonable

143 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611209&postcount=143). Says that Hakon is being weird

149 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611215&postcount=149). Says that Hakon has to be a wolf eventually but she thinks that if he was a wolf his pack mates would have advised him against doing what he did.

I’m not really sure what “he did” that is being discussed which worries me

160 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611228&postcount=160). Votes to lynch Boro because of the Fea thing, has no other real suspects except Hakon but doesn’t want to vote him because of what happened last game

She did have some suspicion of Boro so this seems fine though it almost feels like she is trying to get the village to suspect Hakon without voting for him herself.

263 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611351&postcount=263). Makes a very weird midNight post on the game thread.

Very weird.

298 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611429&postcount=298). Congratulates Hakon for a job well done, makes a good point about wolves trying to not change their playing style from normal, makes a point that the wolves may not have wanted to openly support Rune but having him as Captain would have been such an advantage that they probably pushed for it

Very good point about the wolves, though congratulating players for helping the village can feel superficial

301 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611432&postcount=301). Wonderful vote table, shows connections between the Rune for Captain voters. She makes Val and Lottie look bad but then reminds us that Zil would have looked guilty too

She seems like she is trying to give us as objective view as possible

304 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611438&postcount=304). Puts all of Mac’s posts together. Notices that killing him would make me and Sally look bad while making Kath, Brinn, Roa, and Legate look good, mentions she’s surprised the wolves didn’t leave him alive to frame him.

I agree.

310 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611451&postcount=310). Clarifies her previous post and agrees with Lommy that because killing Mac would make Sally and I look bad we look more innocent

In conclusion: Nerwen is looking more innocent to me than guilty. She makes some good points, says logical things about players, tries to be objective (or at least make it look like she is trying to be objective)… basically she is going on my leaning innocent list but I will continue to look at her.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 09:11 AM

Firstly, it is not Legate’s reasoning in circles that I find suspicious. We all do that to some degree (just look at how we're talking about Mac). My point in this is that he’s doing it a bit much and needs to pick a direction. Being overly cautious only helps yourself and not the village.

Secondly, by “reasoning in Rune’s favor” I mean people who were trying dissuade others from lynching him while not openly supporting him. While one wolf may have openly voted to make Rune captain, others may have been more subtle. When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him. Legate did the later more than anyone else. Over and over in his posts after Rune started to garner lynch votes, he reiterated the idea that Rune was probably innocent and shouldn’t be lynched, yet he never openly said that we should trust Rune. And he managed to sway people. I don’t see how anyone could NOT find that suspicious.

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday? I don’t believe you are gifted, because a gifted cannot act as a captain and is therefore useless. So, at best you’re an innocent after power, and at worst a wolf trying to get full advantage over the village.

Nienna, Hakon was found guilty for doing the same thing Rune did- declaring a desire to be captain. He said it oddly, but it was the same. I also suspected him for that reason.

Which of course means that those people who thought Hakon was guilty but not Rune look more suspicious. *coughGreeniecough*( You’re analysis is coming.)

Also, it's possible that Mac was killed because he's a strong player who tends to survive. Further more, the wolves probably suspected that our Rangers would have protected the more quiet people. So Mac was not a likely Ranger pick. It's possibly that he didn't strongly suspect a wolf, but don't forget a that a wolf is probably in his neutral group as well.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 09:24 AM

Also, Lommy, as I tend to analyze people I find suspicious, of course I find things suspicious about them. Not always. Mostly, Legate's defending Rune without making a strong statement is what I find suspicious. His lack of commitment isn't terrible, except taken with the previous point. On top of that, arguing for a more powerful captain (which would be himself) adds to my suspicion of him, because it's not in the best interests of the village. Individually, the points can be taken neutrally. Together, the add up to a very different picture.

Yesterday, I started analyzing everyone because I felt I had a poor view of the village, not because I found them suspicious. As a result, you'll see that I was mostly neutral about them.

Edit: Strong statement, not string statement :rollseyes:

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 09:50 AM

Firstly, because he was never really even voted to be the Captain, he just became the Captain because the elected Captain happened to die (and I must say that surprised me because I - wrongly - assumed we'd be without a Captain in a case like that). Ok this might not be the best of reasons, especially as our elected Captain was a wolf, but still for the sake of democracy, I'd rather have someone really elected for the position (and of course that doesn't disinclude Legate being re-elected).
Well, come on - I WAS elected, I had the second biggest number of votes. It's not that I would not have any votes at all and then suddenly ended up a Captain. I was given trust by quite many people in the village, okay, you excluded, but others were fine with it, so what? The Wolf who would have been a Captain had died, okay, I also didn't know how the rules will go, but the second person was chosen according to the rules, I think it's perfectly fine. And that's just for clarification. I would have said this even if e.g. Roa was the second one and was chosen to succeed Rune.

Secondly, and more importantly, because I don't think anybody should have power for too long. It's not only dangerous but also a bit useless. Legate had his chance to be protected and appoint people to PM with and talk with them, now let's give someone else to have the chance. (In a way, I see it as rather selfish to ask for another Day of Captaincy, or eyebrow-raising in the least.) The village benefits the more we have different people PMing and thus forming ideas of each other every Night. And like people have said, it's not good to have a wolf captain or a gifted captain, so it's safer to change them regularly.
Eyebrow-raising, you say? Why? And it's not that I would come and shout "yaaay I want to be Captain, make me Captain one more day!" I just asked, if you want to see, I said:
Btw. One topic to ponder (after other things, but just to say it before I am gone) - as I figured out, the Captain really can adjust his lynch-stopping powers only on the second Day of his Captainship, if he is still in office, so... do you folks want to change your Captain, or are you fine with keeping me at least one more Day (it would also help me to kind of make a better picture of things, being able to pick more BGs on the next Night) and then just see? Of course it's all the matter of how much you trust me etc., but even for further "usage" of the Captains, I have been thinking that given how the rules are, it would perhaps be better to just have them for at least these two consecutive Days. So one more thing you can think of or discuss or ponder while I am not around.

The point is rather: okay, we have this rule that Captain could do something with the lynch, but he needs to be there for second Day, I have been there for one Day, do you want to see it or not? You can see for yourself that it wasn't "come and make me a Captain again, it was so great!".

Speaking of that... is there any other idea of making somebody a Captain, other than myself and Roa?

Secondly, by “reasoning in Rune’s favor” I mean people who were trying dissuade others from lynching him while not openly supporting him. While one wolf may have openly voted to make Rune captain, others may have been more subtle. When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him.
I am not sure it's something a Wolf would do, wouldn't it be kind of too obvious but at the same time too little effective? Isn't it far easier to just cast a vote for somebody else?

And anyway, whatever you keep saying here, I wasn't "over and over" saying that "Rune is innocent and shouldn't be lynched". I just said that I do not feel okay with lynching him, i.e. primarily myself, and later also the others. Have you read what I said about the Hunter? That was one of my strong reasons, more in the end.

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday?
Like what? I already am a Captain, I am not striving for Captainship, but when I am already there, I have nothing against staying there. What would you do in my place? (If you are innocent?) Wouldn't you want to get the chance to talk to two more people at Night, to see? I have no problem if I am removed from office, but of course - and now again try to think if you were in my place - when I am here, I am sure no Wolf can get my place. It's personal point of view and of course others don't share it, because they don't know that I am innocent. Nothing more than that, the thought I have behind what I say is my choice and it's quite easy. The rest is of course upon the rest of you.

Nienna, Hakon was found guilty for doing the same thing Rune did- declaring a desire to be captain. He said it oddly, but it was the same. I also suspected him for that reason.
And while Rune was a Wolf, Hakon was a Hunter. Suspicious for the same reasons, but having totally different roles. What did you think about Hakon yesterday, anyway?

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 10:05 AM

It's sad indeed to see him leave but well that's how it is.

To make the narration follow the real-life he will be insisting on leaving the company to go for Bree and not continue towards the Shire with others.

Now it's up to you to decide what to do with his announcement.

Meaning: you can either let him leave or lynch him. I thought of offering you a chance of forcing him to stay with the company as someone who just stays around... but maybe you have enough things to vote on already. :rolleyes:

But it is a nice idea for some future games: if someone needs to leave the game the villagers could vote whether to let the person to stay in the village as dead weight or not instead of just simply modkilling her/him.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 10:08 AM

Master Nog: If we want to keep Legate as a captain after there has been a referendum should we re-vote him or just not vote for the new person?

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 10:13 AM

Greenie

Post 1- Asks Roa to clarify what she meant about her possible captain picks. Doesn’t mind being NG, but doesn’t feel comfortable being captain. Agrees with Legate that we should be careful about bandwagoning on small things, but also points out that on Day 1 small things are all we have. Doesn’t see anything odd with Boro and Fea.

(His first post is very reasonable and straight forward)

Post 2- Ideas on captains: Think Boro and Legate are both clever and active and seem innocent, will probably vote one of them, doesn’t know enough about Rune to trust him, and is afraid to give Roa that kind of power

(Thoughtful and reasonable.)

(PS. I have to say all the people being afraid to give me power has got me thinking, “Oh yeah, I still got it.” :D)

Post 3- Thanks Roa for the clarification

Post 4- Votes Legate Captain because he seems sensible and innocent. Doesn’t want to spread the votes out, asks what happens in a tie for Captain.

(I personally think one should vote for whomever they feel should receive the vote, regardless if other have voted for them or not, but that’s me and not everyone agrees, innocent or otherwise.)

Post 5- Says that he thinks the wolves will play as they would normally play, and not try to be quiet just because the village is

Post 6- Gets off to let Lommy on.

Post 7- LIST!
Not particularly suspicious: Fea, Nienna, Mac, Kath, Loslote, Nerwen, Roa, Lommy, Boro, Brinn, Rune
Suspicious: Valier, Inzil, Sally, Hakon, Gwath

(I like that he listed her reasons instead of just listing names. I don’t like that she found Hakon guilty for making a bid for Captain, but not Rune for doing the same thing.)

Post 8- Votes to lynch Hakon, because he’s the one who already received vote of her top suspects, and because she doesn’t want Rune to die

(Again, Hakon and Rune did the same thing. Why should then Hakon die, but not Rune? By itself, it’s just poor reasoning. Looked at in the knowledge of Rune and Hakon’s roles, it looks suspicious.)

Post 9 - leaves to let Lommy on

Day 2
Post 1- agrees with what Legate says about people defending Rune, admits that her reasons for voting Hakon were weak, points out herself that the same reasons were used by the people who voted for Rune, apologizes for not voting for a NG, answers Lommy’s suspicion by saying “That’s what I always do”

(So, you can see that the reason for voting Rune was the same as for voting Hakon. Yet before you said that Rune should die and Hakon should. What goes for one goes for the other, so what’s that about?)

Post 2- Thinks we should keep Legate as Captain, thinks that we should change captain regularly, isn’t convinced either way about letting the captain get full powers, still afraid to give Roa too much power.

(So, do you want to change captains regularly or keep Legate? You can’t have both, my dear. And by keeping Legate as captain, you make a choice about letting a captain keep full powers, even though you say you aren’t.)

On the whole, Greenie is mostly reasonable. The only thing is that he suspected Hakon and defended Rune when they were doing the same thing. And that could have been the result of being swayed by the people who kept saying that Rune was innocent looking. Bottom line- eh... it's iffy.

Edit; crossed with Legate down

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 10:24 AM

I am not sure it's something a Wolf would do, wouldn't it be kind of too obvious but at the same time too little effective? Isn't it far easier to just cast a vote for somebody else?

It's more effective when you do both. That is, provide someone else for the noose (You were looking for someone who had already been voted on or had suspicion on them for your vote target) while ALSO trying to dissuade others from lynching him. Obvious? Perhaps. But some people play obviously because no one will believe it, and you have been bold in the past. You couldn't have known Hakon was the hunter. If he hadn't been, Rune would be captain right now, and you would have very little suspicion coming your way.

And while Rune was a Wolf, Hakon was a Hunter. Suspicious for the same reasons, but having totally different roles. What did you think about Hakon yesterday, anyway?

Read what you just quoted. I just said I found Hakon suspicious. At the time, however, Rune was the one who stood a chance of becoming captain. My thought process was that they could both be wolves. It was likely only one of them, but I didn't know which one. I saw that Rune was going to become captain, and I was so convinced that either he or Hakon was a wolf that I couldn't let him have that role. So I did two things: I tried to get him lynched, and I tried to put up someone else for captain that I didn't have a clear picture of at the time. You were the only person who stood the chance of beating him in Captain votes, so I went for you hoping that others would follow suit and we could keep Rune out of the captaincy. It didn't work, and Hakon had to save our butts. But had they both lived, I would have suspected them both today.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 10:31 AM

Also, Nienna, why do you want to keep Legate as captain? (Just want to hear your reasoning)

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 10:36 AM

When they saw the votes to lynch him building, they would have tried to change direction in the lynch by either putting up a different candidate, or talking down the points against him. Legate did the later more than anyone else. Over and over in his posts after Rune started to garner lynch votes, he reiterated the idea that Rune was probably innocent and shouldn’t be lynched, yet he never openly said that we should trust Rune. And he managed to sway people.

That's true, and he was doing that even before Rune started getting voted– right after I first expressed suspicion of him, in fact. If Rune's plan was to be "too obvious" to be a wolf, than I could imagine another of the pack pointing out that "real wolves are more subtle" to people who weren't buying it. On the other hand, innocents do tend to assume blatantly "wolfish" people can't really be wolves– and in fact very often they're not. *cough*Hakon*cough*

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row. And Legate, by suggesting we keep you on, aren’t you doing essentially the same thing Rune was doing yesterday? I don’t believe you are gifted, because a gifted cannot act as a captain and is therefore useless. So, at best you’re an innocent after power, and at worst a wolf trying to get full advantage over the village.

Ah, but what if he's an ordo who thinks he'll be able to do some good in the role (I mean, Legate is clever, you know) and doesn't want to be replaced by another player who might be a wolf or gifted?

The thing is, Roa, if Legate is a wolf, than there must have been one heck of a conspiracy going on yesterDay. A lot of planning, I mean– many of the Legate-for-Captain voters, as I recall, were the same people who voted to lynch Rune.

EDIT:X'd since Roa at #321
EDIT2:Removed quote that wasn't meant to be there.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 10:37 AM

If we want to keep Legate as a captain after there has been a referendum should we re-vote him or just not vote for the new person?I'm not sure if I got your point right but here's an answer to what I thought you meant.

If no one contests his Captaincy he stays in the office. You have kind of selected him "as for now", as long until someone of you wish to have another Captain and vote for it.

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

If it is Legate you choose toDay it will be his second Day in office and he will gain the added powers. If it is someone else the new C. will only have the draw-deciding powers.

In case of a draw in the Captaincy-election itself the old Captain continues.

I hope you got your answer.

There seemed to be a few other questions as well. I'll read the thread through (I'm on the previous page right now) and will then answer the questions in one post.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 10:39 AM

It's more effective when you do both. That is, provide someone else for the noose (You were looking for someone who had already been voted on or had suspicion on them for your vote target) while ALSO trying to dissuade others from lynching him. Obvious? Perhaps. But some people play obviously because no one will believe it, and you have been bold in the past. You couldn't have known Hakon was the hunter. If he hadn't been, Rune would be captain right now, and you would have very little suspicion coming your way.

Aaah okay, I can see your point. Good. Though, I already said what it was - no discouraging. And there was this personal aspect, I am saying it once again, that I thought Rune, given his daring approach, might have been a provocative Hunter, and since he voted me, I was not sure whether with his death I would not have died, if he were the Berserk or the Day-killing Hunter. I wanted to keep him undisturbed at least one more Day to try to get a better reading of him.

Read what you just quoted. I just said I found Hakon suspicious.

Oh, ok. I thought that by "him" you meant Rune.

EDIT: x-ed since the post I quoted

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 10:43 AM

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

So in other words: yes, once the voting starts, it's just voting. If you don't cast your vote, you are not voting for anybody. If you want to keep the previous Captain, you need to vote for him.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 10:43 AM

Also, Nienna, why do you want to keep Legate as captain? (Just want to hear your reasoning)

I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch. He would also be able to pick two people to talk to tonight and he will be able to form more opinions of people. I think he did a good job as captain last night and asked reasonable questions and gave well thought out answers.

Basically: If we are going to have a captain, I want it to be somebody I trust.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 10:44 AM

I'm not sure if I got your point right but here's an answer to what I thought you meant.

If no one contests his Captaincy he stays in the office. You have kind of selected him "as for now", as long until someone of you wish to have another Captain and vote for it.

Now clearly other votes have been given already toDay and the challenge has been made. So you will be voting for a Captain toDay. The one gaining the most votes will be your Captain.

If it is Legate you choose toDay it will be his second Day in office and he will gain the added powers. If it is someone else the new C. will only have the draw-deciding powers.

In case of a draw in the Captaincy-election itself the old Captain continues.

I hope you got your answer.

There seemed to be a few other questions as well. I'll read the thread through (I'm on the previous page right now) and will then answer the questions in one post.

Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted to know.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 10:46 AM

Roa, Greenie is a "she". just letting you know.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 10:53 AM

Roa, Greenie is a "she". just letting you know.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

:o I couldn't remember, so I went with male. Sorry Greenie.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 10:55 AM

I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch. He would also be able to pick two people to talk to tonight and he will be able to form more opinions of people. I think he did a good job as captain last night and asked reasonable questions and gave well thought out answers.

Basically: If we are going to have a captain, I want it to be somebody I trust.

Alirght, why do you think he's innocent?

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 11:03 AM

Aaah okay, I can see your point. Good. Though, I already said what it was - no discouraging. And there was this personal aspect, I am saying it once again, that I thought Rune, given his daring approach, might have been a provocative Hunter, and since he voted me, I was not sure whether with his death I would not have died, if he were the Berserk or the Day-killing Hunter. I wanted to keep him undisturbed at least one more Day to try to get a better reading of him.

And this is the problem with looking for gifteds. Leave it to the wolves, don't bother with it on your own.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 11:08 AM

*sigh* The day ends in 5 hours and once again there's been hardly any activity. Legate is my strongest suspect at the moment.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 11:08 AM

And this is the problem with looking for gifteds. Leave it to the wolves, don't bother with it on your own.

Well, I wasn't looking for Gifteds. I wanted to know whether he's not perchance going to kill me, you see ;)

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 11:14 AM

*sigh* The day ends in 5 hours and once again there's been hardly any activity. Legate is my strongest suspect at the moment.

Really? Interesting. Because of what - because of that I, as you say, "supported" not lynching of Rune, and because I, as you say, "ask for" being a Captain? Is there something else?

Anyway, whom else do you suspect, apart from me? You can just tell a list of people, you don't need to elaborate in any deep ways. But since you say "strongest", I would like to know whom else could you suspect.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 11:21 AM

Alirght, why do you think he's innocent?

I started thinking he was innocent at this point:

Haha, okay, I may as well post what I thought of, because I considered it a brilliant idea and it took me a few seconds to realise that it actually is not much of a help (if you say it just like that). After reading Nienna's post, I thought: "Hmm, Nienna is either an innocent... or a wolf."

Brilliant revelation, isn't it? :) Though you see, even though it seems like stating the obvious, the point is the dynamic behind the thinking. I have concluded that myself, I wasn't told that by the rules. :)

Well anyway, I may as well ask, Nienna, are you innocent?

This just doesn't seem like something that a wolf would ask. He is also being logical and not trusting my word but taking it with everything else. He is making sense and defending his positions. I don't see what you do with him being contradictory.

While we were Night talking he asked us why we thought he picked us and gave us opportunity to ask him questions. He answered our questions freely and he did nothing that would make me suspect him of wolvery.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 11:25 AM

A. I suspect everyone to varying degrees because anyone could be a wolf. Unlike some, I don't ever really find someone to be innocent with out it being absolutely confirmed in same way.

B. I had three things which I didn't like about your posting: You continual suggestions that Rune was innocent (which really happened, the posts are there for everyone to see.), the fact that you reason and reason and reason and still come down on both sides of an issue, thus never really saying anything concrete, and the fact that you are even suggesting it would be better to have a captain with full powers which is not at all in the best interest of the village. All this combined with what we now know of the dead leads you to be my strongest suspect.

C. My next strongest candidate is Greenie because she voted to lynch Hakon but didn't apply the same reasoning to Rune, and I think that it's more suspicious to apply your reasoning to one person but not another, than to apply the same reasoning to everyone, even if it causes you to suspect some innocents, and especially since we know that the double standard worked in favor of a wolf it's even more suspicious.

Edit: crossed

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 11:30 AM

We shouldn’t keep a captain two days in a row.I think this is quite a strong statement, to be honest, for surely there are two sides to the issue.I think that it is vital for an innocent to hold the position (if someone is to hold it). Legate is the only person at the moment who I think is innocent. I'd rather he keep it and then be able to help out in a lynch. I agree, to some point, though we have to bear in mind that even if the Captain has the village's best interests at heart it doesn't necessarily mean he can help out in a lynch (meaning that an innocent Captain, too, can get it wrong). On the other hand, I agree that Legate feels pretty innocent, and I think we all know he's smart, so he would, at least in my opinion, be a safer choice than somebody else. Also, I think we should remember that the Captain doesn't have to use his powers. (Which is no consolation if our Captain is a wolf, though...) But yeah, I'm a little confused with the Captain issue, don't know what to think.
(So, do you want to change captains regularly or keep Legate? You can’t have both, my dear. And by keeping Legate as captain, you make a choice about letting a captain keep full powers, even though you say you aren’t.)I'd think it was possible to change Captains regularly even if one Captain had two Days in office. However, I'm still not sure whether I want any single player have that much power... So yes, your criticism on that issue was very much justified since I'm flip-flopping like a proper Lommy.
(I personally think one should vote for whomever they feel should receive the vote, regardless if other have voted for them or not, but that’s me and not everyone agrees, innocent or otherwise.)As it happens, I agree. YesterDay I had two choices, each as good as the other, so I voted for the one who had already been voted for. If I had preferred Boro to Legate I'd have voted him.
(Again, Hakon and Rune did the same thing. Why should then Hakon die, but not Rune? By itself, it’s just poor reasoning. Looked at in the knowledge of Rune and Hakon’s roles, it looks suspicious.)Yeah. An excellent question. Maybe it was partly because I know applying that straightforwardly for Captaincy could well be something an innocent Rune would do. Hakon, on the other hand, has striked me before more as the sort of under-the-radar person, and his open desire to become Captain seemed odd because of that. Also, Rune's behaviour in general seemed quite genuine to me. Alas, I was fooled.
I couldn't remember, so I went with male. Sorry Greenie.No problem dear!

EDIT: x-ed with Lehag (yeah I intended to type Legate... :rolleyes: ), Nienna and Roa

Nienna

09-24-2009, 11:33 AM

Roa what think you of Fea?

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 11:37 AM

The only thing about Fea that has gotten me so far is her lack of aggression. She's either a lost innocent or a cautious wolf. I remember innocent Fea going after people left and right. But I haven't played with her in a long time, and I haven't got a good handle in her. (Not that I ever do.) None of her reasoning has been particularly faulty, so there isn't much too say about her otherwise.

I haven't the faintest idea why she trusts me. Greenie is quite right in not following suit.

Edit: cursed grammatical errors!

Nienna

09-24-2009, 11:40 AM

What worries me about Fea is when she is an innocent she is usually bored so she does outlandish things. Maybe it is RL or maybe she is being a cautious wolf.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 12:05 PM

Well... in the end I only found these...
I think we'd be better off without a Captain, but that would be kind of like a Republic game without a filibuster. If the mod says we can do it, who are we to choose not to?
The only way to get rid of Captaincy itself in these early stages of the game is to lynch the Captain in the end of a Day when no one has voted for any other Captain candidate to replace him (Captains are protected during the Nights so they can’t be killed during the Night by anyone).

Later (with 7 players or less) the Captain can also be killed by Night (unless ranger-protected of course) and then you might wake into a Day with no Captain and decide not to vote for a new one.

On a parallel issue...
So in other words: yes, once the voting starts, it's just voting. If you don't cast your vote, you are not voting for anybody. If you want to keep the previous Captain, you need to vote for him.Correct. Although to keep the previus C. you don't need to vote for him if no one challenges his leadership by voting someone else. That's why I insisted there being a deadline after which no new "Captaincy-votings" could be triggered.

So if you think the issue is important and you have to leave the thread early you should vote for the one you think should be a Captain (I'd say an early-leaver voting for his confidence to the current Captain would not be taken as opening a Captaincy-bid but the vote would be counted if rivalling votes would trigger a real voting on the issue later). But if you stay online late you can see whether there is a need to vote for a Captain or not.

Looking at the general feeling of this bunch it looks like there will be a vote everyDay...

Did we ever get a Word-of-Mod on whether wolves are neutralised if they become Night Guards?

It was discussed, yes. The wolves will be able to PM with other wolves during the Nights even if chosen in “public offices”.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 12:19 PM

Innocent:
Legate

Leaning Innocent:
Brinn
Greenie
Nerwen

No Idea:
Sally
Gwath
Kath
Roa

Leaning Guilty:
Valier
Fea
Lottie

I'm going to need to vote soon. Probably from my leaning guilty category.

Is anyone around with any opinions?

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 12:26 PM

Nienna, do you have reasons for your feelings, or are they just feelings?

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 12:29 PM

It was discussed, yes. The wolves will be able to PM with other wolves during the Nights even if chosen in “public offices”.

Thank you.

So just note that, everyone: there is no real reason why the wolves wouldn't want to be Night Guards.

EDIT:X'd with Roa.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 12:35 PM

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 12:52 PM

If anyone wants to hear a hunch, I think Brinn's a wolf. I don't know why, I just have that feeling. *hugs her for being so busy by the way* I'm probably wrong, but there's not a lot of other discussion that I feel prepared to get into, so I thought I'd put that out there.

Now if anyone wants to hear a fact, I know I'm innocent. But that doesn't really help in our wolf pursuit, so meh.

Also:

++Kath for NG

If she's a wolf we'll hopefully figure it out soon. If not I don't want her dead.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 12:53 PM

Val:

Hmmm the site seems to be having problems, so I don't want to risk not voting uncase it goes down again.

++Loslote for Lynch

Not sure if I was supposed to just bold that or highlight...

I was leaning towards Nienna but Loslotes actions seem more warranted for my vote today. I will have my radar on towards one or both tomorrow.

I'll still be here till the DL as long as the Downs is:p

She flip-flopped between me and Lottie and then ended up voting Lottie... it seemed almost trying to bandwagon

Simply because I like him and haven't played a game with him in aaaaages, so yes I would hate to see him get lynched the first day.

This seems like her trying to dissuade villagers from lynching Rune without giving good reason. She also has one of the top vote counts but most of her posts are tiny and either questions about the rules or little replies to people.

And she feels off. I don't know if it is something to vote her for though... bah. She will be my pick if nothing stronger comes up.

Lottie because she suspected me and then voted me for no reason whatsoever. I'm willing to give her another day though.

Fea for reasons given above... she just doesn't feel like an innocent Fea

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 12:54 PM

I am around here and I may as well present my suspect.

I am suspecting Lommy, again. It is sort of hard to define it from some particular point of view, but she just does not look to me as her innocent self. Of course, she is not around as much as she generally is, because she doesn't have that much time, so that could be reflected in her way of acting as well, but still. For instance, she is far less prone to her typical "Lommy flip-flopping" - it is somewhat more subtle. Also, the way she downplays me as the Captain - okay, now I don't want it to sound too personally, but I just think she would not be as uncertain of me, or at least, I think she would not be so worried of me being in the post of Captain for one more Day if she were innocent. Because I believe she would have good enough reading of me to determine whether I am worry-worthy or not. And so, she should not have minded that much (given what she says herself) to leave me there.
It is really hard to describe, but I think she is guilty, more than anybody else.

She herself said the same thing Roa accused me of, that is, she was, in these words, downplaying Rune's lynch:

I'm not too happy with the lynch candidates. Rune is most likely an ordo and Hakon hasn't done anything to merit lynching. He seems like a cannon fodder ordo to me.
But especially together with the Hakon thing. She says it with some sort of... certainty, as if she knew he is innocent. Of course as a Wolf she would, and then she could - and now she can - lament "oh, you fools, I told you, poor Hakon"! All too wolfy approach that could be, to say what she just said in this post.

When I was speaking about Lommy flip-flopping:
I don't like Kath's vote for Valier, it seems forcedly reasonable.

Then again, that's kind of understandable.

But then again again, I really wouldn't mind voting her even as innocent because she so totally fooled me in Brinn's game.

:rolleyes::D
This one looks like Lommy flip-flopping, but more like a forced Lommy-flip-flopping, if you know what I mean? Not something she would genuine think of, but there was something else going on her mind at that moment - like thinking how to cast suspicion on somebody, for instance.

Also, for the sake of mentioning it, her list of people yesterDay is more or less composed the way that it could be like trying to keep on many people's good side, like for example:
Fea - seems okay this far, I can sympathise about the retrackies
Nienna - seems quite the same as last game when she was helpful and innocent
My problem with these is just that it sounds false, as if she made it up. Sorry. I probably cannot say it better. But she just seems to me not to be genuine at all.

But I could note what she said of the two dead of yesterDay:
Hakon - innocent enough, I'm not sure a wolf would boast of making a good leader
(...)
Rune - a bit weird, but I have the gut-feeling that he's innocent - unless he's the cobbler and making a mess deliberately, but it feels more like an innocent Rune making mess accidentally
So here it goes again, sort of defense of Rune (and now we may speak of somebody promoting Rune innocent), and "I'm not sure a wolf would boast for making a good leader" - she states it with Hakon, but doesn't (dare to?) state it with Rune (because it is true in his case, and she knows?).

Ah well, overall, Lommy's reactions are unnerving to me. I just don't think she would behave the way she does if she were innocent.

EDIT: x-ed since Nienna after Nog's

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 01:09 PM

Really, Legate, to me it seems that Lommy didn't think making a bid for captain was suspicious on Day 1, so she didn't find an innocent Hakon or a wolfy Rune suspicious. It's less a defense of Rune than what you were doing, and at least her reasoning was consistent, unlike others who thought Hakon was guilty but not Rune, and vice-versa.

Today, knowing that a wolf did indeed make an open bid for captain, I'm not surprised she doesn't want to keep captains around long enough to be dangerous.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 01:10 PM

++Legate

for the reasons I mentioned earlier, and because his suspicion of Lommy looks very manufactured

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:12 PM

Okay, someone out there beside me and Nienna has got to find someone suspicious. There are three guilty people among us. It's all well and good to say that the wolves will act as they always do, but the fact is that they're lying about something, and working in tandem with each other, and trying to accomplish a goal other than the village, so their behavior will have to change in some way. Someone among us is hiding something.

Mmn, but you see you've spent much of the day making your cases against Legate and Greenie, and a lot of the discussion has been around that.

(And while I do get your points on both of them, I don't find them compelling enough to actually vote them at this point.)

Meanwhile, in this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611432&postcount=301) I examined the links between the Rune-for-Captain voters. As I said then, it's not conclusive– Inzil would have looked very much in the thick of things were he still alive– but all the same I think it might be a good idea to lynch either Valier or Loslote (since Boro is leaving).

EDIT:X'd since Roa at #351.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 01:17 PM

As I do not have time to look at Lommy thoroughly enough to warrant a vote for her I'm going with my top suspect Valier.

++Vailer

++Captain Legate

++NG Nerwen

and Roa you are creeping your way up my suspicion list. I may be back before deadline but I'm not sure so I don't want to risk it.

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 01:25 PM

NOT WORRIED ABOUT AT THE MOMENT:
Nienna - Seems innocent and has sharp points (+ agrees with me quite a lot.. :p) I could vote her as Guard.
Kath - Innocentish vibes. Could vote as Guard.
Nerwen - Seems more like an innocent Nerwen, she's somehow a tad more careful and smooth and calculating as a wolf. Could vote as Guard.
Legate - Seems innocentish and reasonable. I think I might vote him for Captain.

NO IDEA:
Fea - No read.
Sally - I was kind of suspicious of her yesterDay, but not that much anymore. Actually I have no idea.
Gwath - Too little to go on.
Brinn - No idea.

SOMEWHAT WORRIED ABOUT AT THE MOMENT:
Loslote - I'm leaning towards thinking that the classic suspicious-looking stuff she's done (jumping on other people's suspicions etc.) is more due to being new than to being evil. Not convinced, though, which is why she is here. I'm keeping an eye on her.
Valier - Aargh. Good points have been brought up against her, which must have swayed my opinion of her somewhat. I have little on her that I'd have spotted myself.
Roa - No idea. She's certainly being active and helpful and hasn't said or done anything blatantly wolfish, but I really don't know... It just struck me how handy it would be for a cunning wolf to hide behind being influential, analysing a lot and pointing out other people's faulty argumentation. As I learned on a course of "wise speech", in a debate the one who gets to point out the flaws of their opponent without having to defend themselves is always the stronger. Apart from it being good for the village if she's innocent and striking at wolves, of course, there's always the option that it's the other way round. In short, for one who has posted so much I have very little opinion on her which worries me a bit.
Lommy - Hmmm. Legate I think had some good points against her. I don't know, though, the thing that has struck me as weird in her behaviour is that she was, especially yesterDay, overly enthusiastic and happy and cuddly and all over the place. That in itself is of course no bad thing - it was the way in which it was done that made me worry. Other than that, I don't know.

EDIT: x-ed with 2xRoa, Nerwen and Nienna

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 01:30 PM

Does anyone have a vote tally for toDay or do I have to do one myself?

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 01:32 PM

On Rune and Val:

I know Rune was going for the 'out in the open' strategy, and it's really possible that could have extended to his relationship with his mates, but I'm not sure Val would have agreed to be so close to him in return. I'm just sayin'.

Basically, I can see either Rune being so shiny with a packmate Val or him trying to appear to do so to an innocent Val in order to gain her trust, frame her, etc. I'm not comfortable voting for her toDay just based on that.

++Nienna for Captain

I trust her, plain and simple.

Valier

09-24-2009, 01:32 PM

wow looks like you guys are having a good game of "spin the bottle!"...so I get home from a day of work and I see suddenly half the village wants to see me dead....not quite sure why....Can someone please explain to me why I make such a good lynch candidate for the day?
I would really hate to leave the game so early when I know my talents will come in useful sooner or later.
Well seeing as I guess I need to defend myself or I'm a goner, I'm going back to read and see what people are so concerned about:(

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 01:36 PM

lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier (2)

guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath (2)
Nienna – Nerwen (2)

captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa (3)
Nienna – Legate
Sally - Nienna

Hope I didn't miss anything.

Valier

09-24-2009, 01:38 PM

Thank you Sally! At least for thinking along the same lines I am. I am pretty sure that Rune either thought he could sway me to his side or frame me later on, which it seems is happening right now. Ugg gotta read now I'm workin on it. Thank goodness there isn't much to read....is that a good thing?

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 01:42 PM

About the votes:

lynch:
Valier is the only one to have received more than one vote, and with her two votes basically anyone can still end up lynched. I'm not sure about lynching Valier as I haven't looked that much at her myself, but I have to admit some of the arguments against her look quite convincing.

guard:
Well this looks to be much to my liking since Kath and Nerwen are both people I consider voting to that position myself.

captain:
I think I'll probably vote Legate for Captain, I've already stated why. Sally's idea of making Nienna Captain looks interesting too, though, and certainly worth considering - especially as Nienna is maybe the one I trust most at the moment, or one of them.

EDIT: x-ed with Valier

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:42 PM

Vote Tally

Captain
Fea -> Roa
Brinn -> Roa (2)
Lommy -> Roa (3)
Nienna -> Legate
Sally -> Nienna

Night Guard
Brinn -> Kath
Lommy -> Nerwen
Fea -> Lommy
Sally -> Kath (2)
Nienna -> Nerwen (2)

Lynch
Brinn -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Valier
Roa -> Legate
Nienna -> Valier (2)

EDIT: X'd with a host; updated tally.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:50 PM

Hey, Sally McTally, looks like Greenie and I have pinched your job!:p

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 01:52 PM

Hey, Sally McTally, looks like Greenie and I have pinched your job!Indeed! I was sort of surprised that my tally didn't cross with a one of Sally's. Glad to see your tally contained the same information as mine, by the way. I can get quite neurotic if I'm not sure whether I've got the numbers right...

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 01:55 PM

++Gwath for NG

Not because I trust him, but because he would be the safest kill for any wolf at this point. Though if he doesn't start actually playing toMorrow, in the absence of other suspicions, I would lynch him.

++Lommy for Captain

Because she also thinks we should limit the captain role, because the points against her seem manufactured, and because she looks like regular ol' Lommy

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 01:58 PM

I just can't sort out the Legate-Roa business, so–

++Nienna for Captain

She just seems innocent, plus according to my reasoning the kill probably points away from her and Sally.

And therefore:

++Sally for Guard

EDIT:X'd with Roa.

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 02:00 PM

Hey, Sally McTally, looks like Greenie and I have pinched your job!:p

Oooo that was rather clever! And it's fine with me for now, 'cause I'm not able to do a tally right now anyway. As long as we understand that you're just a temp. ;)

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 02:01 PM

++Gwath for NG

Not because I trust him, but because he would be the safest kill for any wolf at this point. Though if he doesn't start actually playing toMorrow, in the absence of other suspicions, I would lynch him.

I would imagine he's about due to be modfired anyway.

EDIT:X'd with Sally McTally.

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 02:03 PM

I would imagine he's about due to be modfired anyway.

EDIT:X'd with Sally McTally.

*wishes there was something that rhymed with Nerwen so she could play clever flipflops too*

There's no modfire though, so how's he going to get axed? :confused:

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 02:04 PM

There's no modfire though, so how's he going to get axed? :confused:

Isn't there? I must have missed that bit.

Valier

09-24-2009, 02:05 PM

I'm gunna try and answer the questions and/or suspisions of me

Valier - she doesn't seem to be willing to commit to a position. I find her a bit suspicious.

How am I not willing to commit? I voted Rune yesterday for Captain, because It was the first day and I was willing to give my friend (who I was sure was being a silly ordo) the chance to be Captain. Also my vote for you was, I thought warrented. you seemed to be bandwagoning very quickly.

Valier is looking rather bad right now. I agree with Fea that her posts don't look genuine at the moment, and her interactions with Rune were rather fishy.

And speaking of her - Valier, did you talk with Boro at all last Night? If yes, was there anything special you two came up with?

I'm not sure how my posts today have been ungenuine, I had little time yesterday or today to post, so I may have been a little rushed. I have explained my interactions with Rune already and it was a plain and simple reason....we are friends and hadn't heard from one another for quite awhile on the Downs and we were being a bit silly.

And yes Boro and myself PMed a bit last night but he seemed to be very busy. He thought that Mac was suspicious and said he himself was an Ordo. He thought I seemed innocent, that was about it.

I know I'm being a bit defensive but I really don't see why I am suspicious...because I voted Rune for captain? and my posts today are insinciere?
I'm just surprised to have 2 votes for me already today and I haven't been here to answer the suspicions.
I'm gunna attempt to read more and come up with a list of my suspisions in a bit.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-24-2009, 02:05 PM

What worries me about Fea is when she is an innocent she is usually bored so she does outlandish things. Maybe it is RL or maybe she is being a cautious wolf.

It's RL. I've been busy. Feel free to assume that I'm being outlandish in spirit.

I mean... I only got home a few minutes ago and only now just caught up on the thread.

I'm not particularly suspicious of Nienna, but she could easily pull one over on me.

I'm only semi-suspicious of Legate at this point. Valier, I have no idea and lean toward suspicious based solely on gut instinct (which is an unreliable judge).

I'm tempted to try to lynch Roa (yeah, even after voting for her for Captain; having all day to ponder things means I might have to look a little wishy-washy) because I'm not at all used to having somebody around who thinks like I do, and the conspiracy theorist in me is clamoring that it's a ploy, that she's not really good and helpful, that she's just trying to get the village's blood.

But voting for somebody because I trust their judgment? That's kinda backward.

Same for Lommy: I'm totally thrown by how much I don't suspect her.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 02:15 PM

Maybe this is end-of-day jitters, but Fea's last post struck me as quite creepy. Hmmn.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 02:28 PM

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 02:32 PM

Okay. Here's my vote and my reasoning.

It is possible that the only person who voted for Rune was Rune himself, the others all being innocent lambs led astray. However, it's hardly likely, so I'm going to dismiss that one from consideration.

It is somewhat more possible that only one wolf voted Rune, and that that wolf is Boro, who is leaving anyway.

However, even taking that into account, I think there's still an excellent chance of striking a wolf by voting Loslote or Valier.

Since Valier has two votes already, I think it would be a good idea to open up another option:

++Lynch Loslote.

As much as I hate killing new kids too soon I'm getting bad vibes from Lottie as well. Difficult to explain but I really am not comfortable with her.

Little Lottie let her mind wander. Little Lottie thought, "Am I fonder of werewolves or ordos or shoes? Or even those who make them?"

I'll have to see what I think of everyone else before I vote, but I'm thinking it may be Lottie or Brinn or maybe Gwath toDay. Now there's something random.

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 02:34 PM

Updated tally:

lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier (2)
Nerwen - Loslote

guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath (2)
Nienna – Nerwen (2)
Roa – Gwath
Nerwen - Sally

captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa (3)
Nienna – Legate
Sally – Nienna
Roa – Lommy
Nerwen – Nienna (2)

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 02:36 PM

Erm, I think I meant Greenie, not Gwath. Wow, that was a messup. *headdesks*

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 02:37 PM

I think I'll go with

++ Nienna for Captain

Because I believe she's innocent and I trust her judgement if she is one. Also, I'm much more comfortable with her Captaincy than with Roa's, mainly because Roa confuses me so much. I could have voted Legate too but I started to like the Nienna idea too much.

EDIT: x-ed with Sally - an understandable mistake, given that we both have nicknames starting with G and a green avvie.

Valier

09-24-2009, 02:40 PM

Well seems my time has run short again..Im going to buy a car (squeeee!) So I'll get right to the point. I do agree I was sure there would be a wolf that was with Rune for captain and at least one that was against it. So I know im not a wolf that leaves Loslote. Then also I still think Nienna looks suspicious for adamently voting against Runewolf. More on everyone else later if I can...I'm in a rush and don't want to not vote.

++Loslote

And for Captain

++Legate Captain

because I still don't trust Roa, she seems too good to be true in my opinion, but not suspicious enough yet to lynch.

++Lommy for NG
Even though she voted for me (pouts:p) I still think she's innocent.

Hopefully I'll be back before DL, and if I'm not.... hopefully I'll be here to defend myself another day.;):p

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 02:44 PM

Might as well do this now too:

++ Kath for Guard

Because I feel somewhat comfortable with her at the moment and besides I think that if somebody had a private conversation with her it might give us some info on her. Besides, of my two Guard-vote candidates (Nerwen and Kath) I believe Nerwen might be gaining more votes in general and I'd like the two of them to be NG's together. If they both are innocent, those two could really work something out together during their NG session as they are both very sharp and approach things from different angles. Quite the dream team, therefore! (Assuming, again, that they are innocent. If one (or both) of them isn't, I'm again giving proof of my poor judgement...)

EDIT: x-ed with Valier

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 02:53 PM

Erm, I think I meant Greenie, not Gwath. Wow, that was a messup. *headdesks*

That would have been a lot randomer... although if it's true there's no modfire, we should think about lynching him if he doesn't start contributing soon.

Then also I still think Nienna looks suspicious for adamently voting against Runewolf.

Why?

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 02:57 PM

if it's true there's no modfireIt is true.

- There will be no modfire whatsoever. The rangers need to be able to deal with that kind of things among themselves...

EDIT: Drat!!! I have totally ignored my 6000th post! :o:rolleyes::D

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-24-2009, 02:58 PM

I have seen Nienna do nothing that she wouldn't do as an innocent.

Actually, I think she would make for a very competent Captain. I encourage others to vote her in. I'd do so, but... well... too late.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-24-2009, 03:03 PM

So without modfire, lost!Boro remains dead weight?

I'd hate to leave him alive and realize he's a wolf later, but I lean toward the idea that if he was a wolf, he wouldn't bail on his pack.

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 03:06 PM

I'm rather torn right now. I'm still up for voting Lottie but I'm not sure I'm convinced enough of her guilt. In other news, a request of sorts.

Say you'll find the
wolves with fur and sharp claws
Say you'll lynch them
if you think you can
Say you'll vote the one
who killed our Noggins
Promise me that
you're not friends with Rune
Help me, that's all I ask of you

(Yes, Nienna, I'm working on it, so don't even ask.)

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 03:06 PM

So without modfire, lost!Boro remains dead weight?

Is that how it works? I thought Nogrod said he'd been toying with that idea and decided not to use it.

Nogrod?

I'd hate to leave him alive and realize he's a wolf later, but I lean toward the idea that if he was a wolf, he wouldn't bail on his pack.

He might if he knew he'd still count in their numbers– and sometimes one has to drop out.

EDIT:X'd with Sally.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 03:07 PM

Does anyone have the current Tally?

Fea, why the position change?

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 03:08 PM

So without modfire, lost!Boro remains dead weight?Nope... If he will go he will go. I kind of thought of offering you the possibility of voting for whether to make him stay as a dead weight or not earlier toDay, but decided you have things enough to vote for... :rolleyes: (see #323)

But if someone leaves and you don't decide to lynch him he goes away and is removed just like that.

The "no modfire" means that the mod will not kill anyone for not voting or posting etc... which I think is the normal use of the term.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 03:11 PM

Does anyone have the current Tally?

Fea, why the position change?

:o Sorry, nevermind, had you confused with a post by Loslote...

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 03:11 PM

Grrrr....my computer's being stupid. I'll put in my vote now just in case I can't make him behave.

++Lottie

Sorry, dearie, but I must. *grumbles about the missed Phantom of the Opera jokes*

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 03:15 PM

Day2 votes so far...

Captaincy
Fea -> Roa
Brinn -> Roa
Lommy -> Roa 3
Nienna -> Legate
Sally -> Nienna
Roa -> Lommy
Nerwen -> Nienna
Greenie -> Nienna 3
Valier -> Legate 2

NG’s
Brinn -> Kath
Lommy -> Nerwen
Fea -> Lommy
Sally -> Kath 2
Nienna -> Nerwen 2
Roa -> Gwath
Nerwen -> Sally
Valier -> Lommy 2
Greenie -> Kath 3

Lynching
Brinn -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Valier
Roa -> Legate
Nienna -> Valier 2
Nerwen -> Loslote
Valier -> Loslote
Sally -> Loslote 3

PS. Not a regular service but just as I was about to leave the computer I saw Roa's question - and had just updated this...

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 03:19 PM

Updated Tally

Captain
Fea –> Roa
Brinn –> Roa
Lommy –> Roa (3)
Nienna –> Legate
Sally –> Nienna
Roa –> Lommy (2)
Nerwen – Nienna (2)
Greenie –> Nienna (3)
Valier –> Legate (2)

Night Guard
Brinn –> Kath
Lommy –> Nerwen
Fea –> Lommy
Sally – Kath (2)
Nienna – Nerwen (2)
Roa –> Gwath
Nerwen –> Sally
Valier –> Lommy (2)
Greenie – Kath (3)

Lynch
Brinn –> Nerwen
Lommy –> Valier
Roa –> Legate
Nienna –> Valier (2)
Nerwen –> Loslote
Valier –> Loslote (2)
Sally –> Loslote (3)

X'd with Mod– now I'm out of a job!

A Little Green

09-24-2009, 03:19 PM

I'm off to bed.

++ Valier

because I suspect her more than Loslote and it seems it's going to be between those two. In any case I wouldn't like to see Lottie go - it's funny actually, but the more people suspect her the more I become convinced she's actually ordo.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 03:25 PM

You seem to be offering chances for yet another scenario un-thought of by me...

So, if the Captaincy-vote ends up in draw not including the current Captain as part of the draw (he would continue as the C. if he were one involved in the draw as said earlier)...

Then it will be up to the old Captain to choose. That's a lot better than if I'd toss a coin for it, or make a boring "who got them first / last" -thing. :)

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 03:25 PM

I'm going now too.

Good luck.

EDIT:X'd with Nogrod.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:33 PM

Okay, so let us make this clear (and so that we may have half a page of voting lists :) )

captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa (3)
Nienna – Legate
Sally – Nienna
Roa – Lommy
Nerwen – Nienna (2)
Greenie- Nienna (3)
Valier - Legate (2)

Not voted: Legate, Kath, Loslote, Gwath

guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath (2)
Nienna – Nerwen (2)
Roa – Gwath
Nerwen - Sally
Valier - Lommy (2)
Greenie - Kath (3)

Not voted: Legate, Kath, Loslote, Gwath

lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier (2)
Nerwen - Loslote
Valier - Loslote (2)
Sally - Loslote (3)
Greenie - Valier (3)

Not voted: Legate, Fea, Kath, Loslote, Gwath

From the looks of it, I am probably going to guard Nerwen and I am thinking of voting for Nienna as a Captain. Because I am not really that comfortable with making Roa a Captain, and if people want to, I have nothing against making Ni one.

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 03:38 PM

Legate, Lommy's voted all three.

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 03:39 PM

I would imagine he's about due to be modfired anyway.

I'm behind on the reading and it's hard to get back up to speed. But I'll try.

Nienna

09-24-2009, 03:40 PM

I'm back... and intrigued.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:41 PM

Legate, Lommy's voted all three.

Oh sorry, me idiot. Corrected.

Hm, wonder if I should repost it on this page.

Ha, Gwath. Well, you have very little time for catching up.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:43 PM

Okay, so here we go, let's put it this way.

++Captain Nienna

++NG Nerwen

And, so once again:

captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa (3)
Nienna – Legate
Sally – Nienna
Roa – Lommy
Nerwen – Nienna (2)
Greenie- Nienna (3)
Valier - Legate (2)
Legate - Nienna (4)

Not voted: Kath, Loslote, Gwath

guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath (2)
Nienna – Nerwen (2)
Roa – Gwath
Nerwen - Sally
Valier - Lommy (2)
Greenie - Kath (3)
Legate - Nerwen (3)

Not voted: Kath, Loslote, Gwath

lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier (2)
Nerwen - Loslote
Valier - Loslote (2)
Sally - Loslote (3)
Greenie - Valier (3)

Not voted: Legate, Fea, Kath, Loslote, Gwath

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 03:45 PM

Regarding the Captaincy: Basically, I'm hesitant to vote as captain anyone who seems at all keen on holding the post.

Regarding the lynch: Wouldn't be a good idea to lynch Boro, since he's going to be leaving us anyway? Nothing's sure, of course, but I don't like the chance of losing two innocents in one day.

Regarding the Night Guard post: I'm going to try to vote someone who has been fairly vocal during the Days with the hope that they will put the Night-PMing privileges to good use.

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 03:47 PM

So the two Night Guards get to PM? Or the Captain and someone else? Or....gosh, I'm confused. :(

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:48 PM

Regarding the lynch: Wouldn't be a good idea to lynch Boro, since he's going to be leaving us anyway? Nothing's sure, of course, but I don't like the chance of losing two innocents in one day.

And how do you know that he's innocent?

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 03:48 PM

So the two Night Guards get to PM? Or the Captain and someone else? Or....gosh, I'm confused. :(RIght... the two NG's together and the Captain with his own chosen BG's...

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:49 PM

So the two Night Guards get to PM? Or the Captain and someone else? Or....gosh, I'm confused. :(

The two NGs (Night Guards) will PM each other (and be protected for the Night), and the Captain will choose two other people (BG, Bodyguards) who will also be protected and also PM with the Captain (the three of them all among themselves).

EDIT: x-ed with Nog

Nienna

09-24-2009, 03:49 PM

Sally it is my understanding that the Captain and their two body guards, the two NGs, and the Night Talker and their partner... all get to talk. But I could be way off.

Edit: x-ed

Roa_Aoife

09-24-2009, 03:49 PM

So the two Night Guards get to PM? Or the Captain and someone else? Or....gosh, I'm confused. :(

The two NGs pm with each other and the Captain and his/her BG's pm with each other

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 03:50 PM

Regarding the lynch: Wouldn't be a good idea to lynch Boro, since he's going to be leaving us anyway?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to vote someone who has a chance of getting lynched at this point– there being exactly ten minutes until DL?:rolleyes:

(Yes, I'm back. I thought I might as well hang around for the DL after all.)

EDIT: X'd with a host.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 03:50 PM

Such a many helping hands... but the Rangers are renowned for their comradership and sharing aren't they? :)

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 03:52 PM

RIght... the two NG's together and the Captain with his own chosen BG's...

Thanks. And Legate and Nienna and Roa too. I was really confused.

Nienna, if you're captain, I'd appreciate a bit of love coming my way. If you are truly innocent I think you'd be a good person for me to strategize with, per se. (And in jest, you could help me with that parody.) Completely up to you, of course, but I think it could be handy.

*waits for DL*

*is antsy because she wants to be able to go to dinner*

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 03:53 PM

And how do you know that he's innocent?

And that's a good point. Well, Gwath?

EDIT:X'd since last post.

satansaloser2005

09-24-2009, 03:54 PM

And that's a good point. Well, Gwath?

What they said. I mean I think he's innocent too but I don't know for sure. For all we know we'll be rid of two more wolves at the end of the Day. (If only!)

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 03:55 PM

Wouldn't it be a good idea to vote someone who has a chance of getting lynched at this point– there being exactly ten minutes until DL?:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, my absence means I haven't been able to form any opinions about those players. Boro's the only one I have any good reason to want to lynch at this point - unfortunately.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:55 PM

Valier and Loslote are about equally "suspicious" in my eyes. The "suspicious" is in "" because I do not really suspect them, or, not in any deep way. As I believe that there would have likely been some Wolf among the Rune-Cap voters, one of them might be, but who. Loslote I get very little reading on. Of Valier, all she said and done etc. does not necessarily point to her wolfishness, though it might. And she could perhaps even be "framed" by the Wolves. Well, they both could be, for that matter, which could be slightly unlikely, but also possible. In any case, they are not my top suspects. Had there not been for the Rune thing, I would probably hardly have noticed them at all.

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 03:56 PM

What they said. I mean I think he's innocent too but I don't know for sure. For all we know we'll be rid of two more wolves at the end of the Day. (If only!)

As you say, I don't know for sure. I'd be playing the odds.

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 03:57 PM

But Boro's clearly not getting lynched toDay, so it's an irrelevancy.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 03:58 PM

Nienna, if you're captain, I'd appreciate a bit of love coming my way. If you are truly innocent I think you'd be a good person for me to strategize with, per se. (And in jest, you could help me with that parody.) Completely up to you, of course, but I think it could be handy.

Actually, I would second this. Ni, you'd have time to decide, but to me sally seems quite ok, so if my recommendation can serve... and since she's offering it herself (no, it doesn't seem suspicious to me that she offers herself. Not now and not from her now, before anybody asks).

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 04:00 PM

And as for that, when I'm already mentioning it, I do not think I need you to return the favour, Ni, and have me toNight - unless you really want to.

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 04:00 PM

Ok, well, I'm going to vote Lommy for Night-Guard since Kath hasn't been around and it seems like a waste of special privileges.

++ NG Lommy

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 04:01 PM

Time's up!

Stop posting.

Results in a moment, narration in a short while...

Gwathagor

09-24-2009, 04:01 PM

Heck, in the absence of better ideas:

++Boro

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 04:01 PM

Ok, well, I'm going to vote Lommy for Night-Guard since Kath hasn't been around and it seems like a waste of special privileges.

Says who.

EDIT: sorry Nog, that was missed by a hobbit's hair.

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 04:06 PM

Captain Legate, the Lynch and the Night Guard votes are tied. So do your duty.

EDIT: Oh, Nogrod's making the decision, is he? I thought Legate had to.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 04:07 PM

Nienna is the new chosen Captain.

Valier and Loslote gained as much votes so it is up to Nienna to decide which one dies.

~*~

Consider these ones as false statements...
The Night-guards are Kath and Nerwen.

Also Nienna should have to choose two BG's (not Kath or Nerwen as they are occupied already).

Kath and Nerwen should feel free to PM as soon as they wish.
The rules say that when the number of players is 12-7 there will be only one NG and one BG - and together the three of them (C, BG & NG) form the guarding-gang who can PM together.

I had totally forgotten that Boro left from my numbers (I hadn't forgotten that Boro leaves but had not subtracted him from the tally). The problem is corrected and the people whom this is to concern have been notified of the rule. Kath is the NG as she got the votes first and Nienna now has only one BG (whose name will be revealed in the next narration).

~*~

The wolves may start PM'ing.

The Rangers and hunters should send me their picks.

The Night talker will be picked and PM'd in a few minutes.

Final results & the narration coming as soon as the new Captain has informed me about them (and I'm awake to send them to be shared).

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 04:07 PM

Captain Legate, the Lynch and the Night Guard votes are tied. So do your duty.Nope. He's no more the Cap'n... Not his job... ;)

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-24-2009, 04:08 PM

I don't think I am a Captain. Or that I have any privilege.

EDIT: x-ed!!! yes, so you see. I should not have been saying anything. It's Night! The rules should not be breached! :rolleyes: :) Sorry, nog :D

Nerwen

09-24-2009, 04:11 PM

Nope. He's no more the Cap'n... Not his job... ;)

Ah. I thought he was Captain until the new Captain was announced.

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 04:11 PM

Be my guest... :)

Nogrod

09-24-2009, 05:01 PM

The Rangers buried their dead with heavy hearts and packed their backpacks despite the blizzard. They were ready to continue their endless-seeming mission through the white storm to reach the Shire in time to prevent the wolves to wreak havoc on them. How impossible that seemed with the problems of their own to be sorted out!

“Don’t you think someone should need to know about our ordeal back there?” Boro called the others over the howling wind. “I could try to reach Bree! I know the way there the best of us!”

The others halted.

“If you feel it must be you, then you go” Legate said matter of factly.

“But how come you’d just sneak away? Shouldn’t we take tougher measures on you actually?” Gwath yelled.

“Why do you say that? It’s a tough quest to do all alone.” Nerwen reacted.

“Why would I like to sneak away if I was a wolf?” Boro answered somewhat irritated.

“Well, that’s not logically proven stuff you come forwards with comrade… you might be arguing in circles…” Roa muttered.

“If he wishes to go, then he goes.” Legate snapped to Roa. “He does what he sees fit and we others continue, with him or without him. That's the Captain's words.”

It was clear the two were not in the best of terms, not the least as during the morning hours it seemed they were the top contestants to be the Captain.

The pragmatic Rangers turned that rivalry off by choosing Nienna as their new Captain.

But who would they lynch toDay… that was a question they all went through in their minds while pushing through the storm that seemed to grow as the day draw nearer to the end.

That day the weather really pressed them and they soon realised they would not be able to travel very far. There was no good shelter for resting within miles and they knew it.

Finally they found a few mounds that were high enough to hide behind from the icy wind and where they could light some fires that had even slight chances of burning. Even if that hope soon turned out to be a fool’s hope.

But they had to make a choice – and as long as they all sat around the fire it kept burning as the mass of men kept the wind outside the lonely circle of light in the middle of the storming moors.

It ended up with Loslote and Valier being the ones to choose from.

“So as I’m not your Captain anymore it’s up to you Nienna to decide who…” Legate said calmly.

Nienna looked at Legate and then at the two pierced by the stare of all the other Rangers, everyone of them thinking how it would turn out this time.

“It will be Valier… give him a knife to be an honourable Ranger who faces the distrust of his companions.” Nienna finally ordered.

Valier looked scared but also annoyed. “Wait a minute! You didn’t give me even one chance to do anything! You guys call this fair? Once I’m in this you didn’t even give me one try?”

Valier denied the knife handed to him and looked at the others challengingly. “Knives…” He spat on the snow with disgust in his face and draw his sword. “There’s only one way to go for a Ranger… and that is…” He set the blade into the snow blade upwards and leaned lightly on it.

The others held their breath in honouring the composure of their brother.

“… like this!”

With that Valier threw the sword from the blade towards those nearest to him and kicked the fire down leaping away from the same footing.

“Catch him!” Nienna yelled and drew his bow.

“He’s running that way, quick after him!” Lommy called and pointed to the direction while reaching for his bow with the other hand.

Greenie had leapt after Valier already and produced his knife. “So a knife is not good enough for you traitor? Try this!” With that Greenie threw his knife after the shape that was trying to evade them into the darkness. A loud cry was heard when the knife landed on Valier’s back.

Two bows rang at the same time and before he fell down two arrows pierced him to finalise his fate.

The Rangers closed up on him carefully their weapons ready for any werewolf-tricksery, but there was none. Valier laid face down in the snow, a knife and two arrows in his back.

Suddenly his head moved a bit. "The wolves should... no... they will... prevail..."

Those were the last words of Valier the Traitor.

The Living:

Fea
Nienna
Sally
Kath
Loslote
Greenie
Nerwen
Roa
Lommy
Legate
Gwath
Brinn

The Dead:

Nogrod (mod) - turned into a werewolf and butchered on N1.
Hakon (The Master Hunter) - stuck dead on D1.
Rune (Werewolf) - killed from the sword of the Master Hunter at the end of D1.
Macalaure (The Berserk Hunter) - eaten alive by the werewolves on N2.
Inzil (Ordinary Innocent) - decapitated by the Berserk Hunter on N2.
Boro (Ordinary Innocent) - left to Bree to infor others about the Company's tough fate on D2.
Valier (The Night-Traitor aka. The Cobbler) - killed by the Rangers while trying to flee on D2.

It's Night3 now.

Hush...

Nogrod

09-25-2009, 04:00 PM

At places the snow had piled up in drifts as high as up to a man’s waist. The Rangers dug individual holes into these drifts to make the snow keep them covered and warm.

There was no need for five people staying up in an open place like this. The wolves could not make their mischief in secret like they had done the Night before in the shadows of the trees. And everyone was dead-tired so the more people could sleep the coming Night the better. So only Nienna, Sally and Kath stayed by the fire watching over the camp – if one could call it a camp. It was more like “nine men living in makeshift hobbitholes” as Fea had put it before crawling into his hole in the snow.

The wind showed no sign of getting weaker, nor the snowfall of ceasing. And the Night went on.

With the first shades of light increasing the three decided to wake the others. They should use all the sparse daylight they had.

“Rise and shine! We’re leaving in twenty minutes!” Nienna called walking around.

“Did you say “shine”?” Lommy asked cynically after pulling his head out from the hole and getting the biting wind to his face.

“I wouldn’t take this for a Day if I hadn’t your assurances… though I’m still wavering between that and the proof of my own eyes.” Gwath grumbled.

“Don’t be sulky mates, nothing happened during the Night!” Sally answered cheerfully. “Just grin a bit softer!”

“There was no sound, no movement during the Night.” Kath confirmed.

“Blessed be the Valar." Roa said and took his backpack "Lets’ get on with it then.” only to suddenly freeze motionless.

“What is it Roa?” Nienna asked passing him by.

“Have you seen Brinn?” Roa asked.

Nienna turned to look at Brinn’s hole. His sack and his weapons were there but it seemed there was nothing else.

“Wait, there’s a tunnel under the drift here!” Nerwen shouted suddenly stepping on it less than ten meters away from Brinn’s hole.

“Let’s follow it!” Legate called and started kicking the snow from around the place where Nerwen had bumbed into the tunnel.

After a few minutes of slowly following the tunnel in the blizzard they finally saw an odd shape in the drift in front of them.

Loslote was the first one to spot it and he ran forwards fighting the snow that had piled almost up to his chest. After throwing the snow around with his bare hands he finally yelled “It’s Brinn! …and he’s… naked…”

Greenie had followed in his trails and tried frantically to find a pulse. The other Rangers fought their way slowly around the body of their mate. After a minute or two of painful silence Greenie shook his head and turned towards the others. “He’s dead. Frozen to death.”

~*~

The Living:

Fea
Nienna
Sally
Kath
Loslote
Greenie
Nerwen
Roa
Lommy
Legate
Gwath

The Dead:

Nogrod (mod) - turned into a werewolf and butchered on N1.
Hakon (The Master Hunter) - stuck dead on D1.
Rune (Werewolf) - killed from the sword of the Master Hunter at the end of D1.
Macalaure (The Berserk Hunter) - eaten alive by the werewolves on N2.
Inzil (Ordinary Innocent) - decapitated by the Berserk Hunter on N2.
Boro (Ordinary Innocent) - left to Bree to inform others about the Company's tough fate on D2. (killed by the wolves travelling alone in the blizzard)
Valier (The Night-Traitor aka. The Cobbler) - killed by the Rangers while trying to flee on D2.
Brinn (Ordinary Innocent) – stunned, dragged through a tunnel, stripped naked and left to froze to death on N3.

It's Day 3 now.

It's your turn...

Roa_Aoife

09-25-2009, 04:11 PM

I'm only on for this moment. Nienna, why Valier and not Loslote? Also, why sally?

It's prudent to look at the people who voted for Valier, because the wolves would not have known her role, and would only know her as an innocent.

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.

Nienna

09-25-2009, 04:22 PM

I'm only on for this moment. Nienna, why Valier and not Loslote?

I thought them both very suspicious but I've seen newbie ordos lynched off too many times to risk that. Lottie needs to participate much more today so we can make an informed decision about her. She's done getting the newbie pass from me.

Also, why sally?

Quite simply because she asked. She is also someone who I thought would be able to give me good opinions of everyone and I wanted to hear from her so I could decide on her leanings.

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.

May I ask, Roa, why you are so interested in the position? You are my top suspect for toDay.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-25-2009, 04:24 PM

Okay, so I remembered last night just as Grey's started that I'd forgotten to cast a lynch vote. For what it's worth, I intended to carry out my threat to vote for Valier.

I had no solid evidence, because I'm being a lazy sack of lard this game and don't feel like doing research to support my intuition. So it was suspicion based on gut instinct of what seems sincere and what seems synthetic.

You'll note that I've been on her case for a while for seeming like a falsie.

But since I forgot to vote, that barely matters...

In theory I'll be around for much of toDay.

In theory. No guarantees. My life has turned surprisingly busy.

Roa_Aoife

09-25-2009, 04:37 PM

May I ask, Roa, why you are so interested in the position? You are my top suspect for toDay.

I'm not actually interested in the position. I don't know why people are trying to put me there.

May I ask why I'm your top suspect?

(I've got about 10 minutes and then I'm off to D&D.)

Nienna

09-25-2009, 06:07 PM

May I ask why I'm your top suspect?

Well... I actually had some confidence in you until middle of Day 2 and now that you are still alive I ask myself "why are the wolves leaving Roa alive?" You seem like the type of player who, when innocent, is a detriment to the village. I don't understand why they would leave you alive and kill Brinn (who had only posted 3 times). I accept that they may want to frame you and I won't pass major judgment on you until I have time to do a thorough analysis (probably sometime later toDay). Besides that your voting yesterDay was really strange. You voted Lommy for Captain, Gwath as NG, and Legate as lynch. The lynch vote probably sticks out for me the most as Legate is one of the few people who I don't suspect, at all.

You have also been handling the captain situation in a weird way. You say that you have no desire for the position but it seems as if you have been subtly hinting at it all game. Fea I also suspect because of her very quick vote for you for Captain. It seemed as if she was trying to lead 'her sheep' to vote you captain.

If you are so concerned about people not getting too much power then vote for no captain. That is an option. Also you were very quick today to give me a vote of no confidence. Do you have no confidence in me? Why?

Roa_Aoife

09-25-2009, 07:00 PM

Well... I actually had some confidence in you until middle of Day 2 and now that you are still alive I ask myself "why are the wolves leaving Roa alive?" You seem like the type of player who, when innocent, is a detriment to the village. I don't understand why they would leave you alive and kill Brinn (who had only posted 3 times). I accept that they may want to frame you and I won't pass major judgment on you until I have time to do a thorough analysis (probably sometime later toDay).

I rarely get killed by wolves. The reason being is that around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long and need to be killed. Brinn was probably killed for the same reason that any quiet person is killed (which is why I voted her as NG on Day 1). A quiet person leaves no trail.

Besides that your voting yesterDay was really strange. You voted Lommy for Captain, Gwath as NG, and Legate as lynch. The lynch vote probably sticks out for me the most as Legate is one of the few people who I don't suspect, at all.

Not agreeing with you and being weird are not one in the same. I have very good reasons for suspecting Legate. You are free to read them. They are certainly better reasons than "bad feelings" or "weird behavior" that have been the reasons most people are voting on. I voted Lommy as captain because out of everyone, I am least suspicious of her. No one else has a good reason for suspecting her, either. I voted Gwath as NG for the same reason I voted Brinn- quiet people get killed because they leave no trail.

You have also been handling the captain situation in a weird way. You say that you have no desire for the position but it seems as if you have been subtly hinting at it all game. Fea I also suspect because of her very quick vote for you for Captain. It seemed as if she was trying to lead 'her sheep' to vote you captain.

How is it weird to not want to risk a wolf having the power to control the lynch? I think the people who aren't considering it are not thinking of the consequences. I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday.

If you are so concerned about people not getting too much power then vote for no captain. That is an option. Also you were very quick today to give me a vote of no confidence. Do you have no confidence in me? Why?

I don't have a problem with someone having the ability to break ties or be protected at night. I do have a problem with someone who can control the lynch. My vote of no confidence has nothing to with you. Go back and actually read all of my posts about the captain role yesterday.

Loslote

09-25-2009, 07:08 PM

I should be on more toDay, because it's the weekend.

My thoughts on (hopefully) everyone:

Fea - Pretty sure she's innocent.

Nienna - I don't think she's a wolf anymore. First Day posting was suspicious, but that's gone now.

Sally - she hasn't been on much, but I don't think she's guilty.

Kath - I think she's innocent.

Greenie - not sure. Might be a wolf, might not.

Nerwen - same as Greenie.

Roa - I think she's innocent, but she could be a wolf.

Lommy - I don't think she's a wolf, but she still might be.

Legate - Probably innocent.

Gwath - only just showed up. I don't have an opinion yet.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-25-2009, 07:18 PM

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

I'm having reindeer problems with Sally. That's just odd. I mean... since when does Sally play Prancer?

Nienna

09-25-2009, 08:16 PM

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

Thanks dear. Why would I want to kill Brinn? I assume that is what you are accusing me of.

Roa: I appreciate you addressing all my concerns. Even though you may have some seemingly good justifications I'm going to wait until I analyze you further letting you off the suspicion hook.

Not agreeing with you and being weird are not one in the same

Yes. I know. What I did find weird is you finding suspicion where there isn't any or where good explanations have been given. This is wolf behavior to me.

Lottie: Lists are good. What is even better is if you give some reason for why you think people are as you have listed.

Loslote

09-25-2009, 08:48 PM

Fea seems to have definite opinions which don't always match with what everyone else thinks. I'd think a wolf would be a bit more willing to agree with others.

My reason for suspecting Nienna Day one was because she seemed to be grasping at straws, sort of, trying to frame someone. She's not doing that anymore, and it was probably a fluke.

Sally hasn't seemed suspicious, but I'm not counting her out yet.

Kath hasn't been super active, but doesn't seem at all wolfish.

Greenie's voting for all the most popular candidates, without much discussion.

Nerwen is really slipping under the radar. She's starting major issues, but no one's noticing, just following...

Roa is very active and helpful, but that might just be trying to seem normal, I can't tell.

Lommy hasn't done anything too outstanding either way.

Legate has been helpful and not at all controversial. That could either be ordo or wolf, but I'm leaning ordo.

That's my reasoning...not too explicit, I know, but there it is...

Roa_Aoife

09-25-2009, 08:50 PM

Yes. I know. What I did find weird is you finding suspicion where there isn't any or where good explanations have been given. This is wolf behavior to me.

My analysis of Legate and Greenie took up two pages each in MS Word. I explained my views over and over again. What more explanation do you want?

Nienna

09-25-2009, 09:14 PM

My analysis of Legate and Greenie took up two pages each in MS Word. I explained my views over and over again. What more explanation do you want?

I didn't say your explanations were not thorough only that we disagreed on what behavior is suspicious. I, again, shall wait until I have time to give you a deep analysis.

Now that we've had a nice Nienna and Roa show... is anyone else around? Does anyone else have opinions?

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 12:03 AM

Brinniel

Day One
#46.
Doesn't have time to play that Day; is confused about the rules; doesn't have a read on anyone; doesn't want to vote randomly; would hate to elect a wolf; might not vote at all.

And didn't.

Day Two
#299
Says she's just got a new job and will have even less time to play now. Is suspicious of those who elected Rune. Apologises for lack of participation; will have more time tomorrow.

#300
Says Loslote has done some suspicious things, but doesn't want to vote her because she's new. Says she is making a decent effort and would like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Doubts Valier and Rune would have been so obvious about it were they both wolves. Says her voting plan has now gone "out the window". Votes to lynch me for "bad vibes". Votes Roa for captain because "her dedication has proven that she would do well in such a role". Votes Kath for Night Guard due to her quietness and tendency to get killed early. Says she may check in again later (but didn't).

And that's it. Unless I've missed one, she only made three posts, and the first had no substance at all.

So– reconstructed suspicion list:

Suspicious: Nerwen.
Somewhat Suspicious: Loslote.
Neutral: Valier.
Innocent: Roa, Kath.

Two people– Kath and Roa– show up in both Brinn's and Mac's (reconstructed) lists as "innocent". If one or both of them are wolves, it's possible they're targeting people who trust them, to look good and/or to avoid being Hunted. (This is not an accusation, however: I'm currently not sure what to make of Roa, and don't have any actual reason to suspect Kath.)

Other than that, it does just seem to be a classic no-trace kill, with a nod towards framing me (and maybe Loslote, although Brinn's ambiguous about her).

*shrugs* That's all I can get out of it. At least that one didn't take long.

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 12:34 AM

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

Care to explain?:confused:

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 02:39 AM

Hmm hmm, personally I am also leaning forwards to the thought that Brinn was killed just because of a no-trace kill. I would have assumed so, because basically almost any other person (basically out of those who were participating more than Brinn) who would have been killed would have left some more significant traces in some way.

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.
Well, since in this game, there is no way to have a known innocent, then it basically means just rotating the people. You could have just as well skipped the sentence.

Anyway, myself, personally, don't worry about keeping Nienna in position, if people are fine with it. Of course I would urge her to be careful with the power of cancelling lynch, but otherwise, I trust her.

I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday.

Which basically means that you want to be captain, mind you. Or, "mind you" - surely I do not have to remind you of that, you must be aware of it. You are the third person, and have been so since Day 1, apart from me and Nienna now (and okay, Rune on the first Day), who seems to have good enough support to become a Captain. So in other words, by insisting on switching the Captains, you also ask for becoming a Captain - indirectly. I think something like that happened already on Day 1:

Oh, it occurs to me to answer my own question: I have no logistical issue with being captain. I make no promises on being a good one. Or socially adept one.

I would not be mentioning it if it was not something that I have spotted as a pattern in your behavior all the time since Day 1. The way of speaking without saying some things openly, but saying them in the way that they are still said and can be interpretated and get stuck in the reader's head without actually being totally open in the first place. Especially knowing that you are a clever player and after you said yourself that you are mastering rhetorics. That is: you asked in your first post if people have problems with being a Captain, you said nothing yourself, and then several posts later - the thing I quoted just above - you said "Oh, and by the way, I almost forgot, oh surely I could answer my own question when we are already at it, right? Well I don't really want to be a captain, but I can be one, hint hint nudge nudge?" By adding "oh, it occurs to me..." and the fact that you said it only after some time, you made it sound more careless, more "by-the-way", which means: making yourself seem "no, I don't strive for power, I almost forgot that I could be a Captain myself" while at the same time basically asking for it.

It would be a similar issue with the words "I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday." Which is at the same time saying "oh no, I don't strive for power" and saying "vote me", for reasons I explained above when quoting that one. It's a pattern with you, all the time, that there is a difference between saying something and what it actually can mean, or what message it conveys.

I have been noticing that from the first Day, and you are basically doing it all the time, also in other cases. Last of all is the thing you just repeated now, again, and which you already said on first Day.

ToDay it was:
I rarely get killed by wolves. The reason being is that around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long and need to be killed.

And on Day 1:

Also, don't make a night guard, people. I'm too easy to lynch for the wolves to waste a kill on me. Put in someone who's trailless, like Brinn or Kath. Boro doesn't look likely to die either. If he's innocent, then he looks too suspicious to kill. Think about it.

And toDay again. ToDay you are saying it plainly, on Day 1 you said it more subtly. It was more like "I am speaking about NG I am speaking about NG I am speaking about NG" but the second message which is incorporated in there is "I'm too easy to lynch for the wolves to waste a kill on me". Something you are saying already on Day 1, to prepare an explanation waaay beforehand, of why you have not been killed yet?

So in other words, yes, I suspect you, Roa. It is funny that you speak about Day 3, "around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long" - well, "funny" - I must say it's slightly unnerving to me too, but it is time for me to bring it forth. I did not want to state any suspicion about you earlier in case you might be innocent and the Wolves would attempt just what you said. Of course, if you are innocent, I could see the Wolves trying to frame you. But I have never had any stronger suspect than you during the two last Days, and you are also one reason - which I didn't mention yesterDay just for the reason I just mentioned (i.e. that I did not want to help the Wolves to have the reason to frame you in case you were innocent) - why I suspected Lommy. Her kind of "follower"-ish attitude to you, the way she voted for you, was one reason for my suspicion of her.

And speaking of Brinn... that also strenghtened my suspicion of you. One more thing is the way you speak of NGs, where you actively take part in selecting them. If you are a Wolf, you would, of course, know that if somebody's selected, you cannot kill him, but then, there are probably still enough people to choose from, and especially with kills like Brinn, it's not a problem.

Brinn was probably killed for the same reason that any quiet person is killed (which is why I voted her as NG on Day 1). A quiet person leaves no trail.

Again this sort of subtle "I voted her as NG on Day 1 and now she is dead, see? I was right on Day 1, eventually, she was killed". Of course that doesn't mean that you were all the time after Brinn, but mentioning this now is basically just confirming that you have nothing to do with her kill, as you protected her on the former Night. A really side-thing, probably even from your perspective, but if it's there, fine with you so you mention it.

Well. I think that would do for now. Speaking of others... I am becoming slightly uneasy with Fea, too. I am unsure about Loslote, some ways of how she speaks seem very genuine, sometimes her lists seem as if they were just randomly made by a Wolf who does not particularly know how to speak of people as he won't know whom to keep on good side and whom on bad side (her first list toDay looks like that, on the other hand her second more elaborate list looks more genuine). But I do not hold her as suspect now. I am still worried about Lommy.

I still trust Nerwen, Nienna... well, how was sally, Nienna? Anything to add to your Nightly campfire discussion?

Thinlómien

09-26-2009, 06:07 AM

Rather eerie. I was the Night-talker last Night and I chose (both out of curiousity and slight schedule problems) to talk with Greenie. A few hours before the DL I asked her who she thinks will die toNight. She said: "I would have said myself, but now that Roa started suspecting me, probably not." And we started speculating. The names that appeared were Legate, Nerwen, Kath and Brinn. In the end, I insisted on making a clear guess. I said Brinn, Greenie said Kath or Brinn. So it is rather creepy to find her dead toDay...

All an all our chat was fine. I asked Greenie (I confess, not exactly without any "sinister" intentions) to summarise the end of Day2 to me before I read it. Her summary revolved mostly around the actions of Roa and Legate (which is rather understandable :rolleyes: ) and on what people had said about me, as far as she remembered. It seemed a rather innocent series of recollections, I think a wolf would've been pressured to talk about more people, or mentioned at least one of her mates because she would've remembered what they did (if they did something). I know Legate or Roa could be Greenie's mates, but I feel it's more likely she talked about them because they both made such a show of themselves yesterDay.

On the whole, our chat made me feel better about Greenie. She seemed honest and thinking on the innocent trail of thought. I'm not entirely convinced though - I was the one to initiate all the topics and she remained rather passive, and she said once something weird about forgetting it's possible Kath's guilty and saving it with saying she always forgets she may be guilty. But even that wasn't too weird.

I see a full-size war between Legate and Roa is about to start. My current feeling towards it is to sit back, watch and grab some popcorn. I think both of them are more on the innocent side, Legate more so than Roa, but I'm so unsure I would not take sides. Besides I think this will be educational. :cool:

Then some quotes from yesterDay and toDay:
Also, I'm not entirely comfortable with having Roa as Captain. I think I already said something about this yesterDay. This has nothing to do with suspecting her (she's in the very middle of my no idea -category, in fact) nor with disliking her playing style (as I like it a lot). It's just that she's a very influential player already now, and I fear that if she was elected Captain this village might be in danger of becoming too much led by one person alone.I don't think that'd be too much of a problem - people suspect her well enough and she would only be the Captain for one Day and Night. And remember a vocal villager only has as much power as we give her.

It's not that I would not have any votes at all and then suddenly ended up a Captain. I was given trust by quite many people in the village, okay, you excluded, but others were fine with it, so what?It's exactly the fact that 1) I didn't vote you and 2) you didn't even get the most votes, so I may be displeased. (Which is rather funny, because I did consider voting you.)

Eyebrow-raising, you say? Why? And it's not that I would come and shout "yaaay I want to be Captain, make me Captain one more day!" I just asked, if you want to see, I said:
The point is rather: okay, we have this rule that Captain could do something with the lynch, but he needs to be there for second Day, I have been there for one Day, do you want to see it or not? You can see for yourself that it wasn't "come and make me a Captain again, it was so great!".And I said quite clearly I do not want to see it at all, and it seems rather suspicious to me that someone nicely volunteers to be the test dummy for the Captain's full powers. It's a lot the same as what you accuse Roa of - subtly volunteering for the post as if you didn't want it especially although you do.

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...)

The thing is, Roa, if Legate is a wolf, than there must have been one heck of a conspiracy going on yesterDay. A lot of planning, I mean– many of the Legate-for-Captain voters, as I recall, were the same people who voted to lynch Rune.That's a good point, actually, but a little less valid from my point of view considering that I've started to wonder if the wolves would really be so eager to vote their fellows to be Captains...

Also, the way she downplays me as the Captain - okay, now I don't want it to sound too personally, but I just think she would not be as uncertain of me, or at least, I think she would not be so worried of me being in the post of Captain for one more Day if she were innocent. Because I believe she would have good enough reading of me to determine whether I am worry-worthy or not. And so, she should not have minded that much (given what she says herself) to leave me there.:D Darling, hope you don't mind me saying, but I believe you are taking it personally. I do actually consider you quite innocent at the moment so whatever my initial feeling was I do/did not mind your Captaincy, but I just don't think anyone should stay in power for two Days. Like I said, not even myself. I may trust you, but I do not trust your judgement.

And I can't really defend myself against what you said about sayings about Rune and Hakon, because I wrote what I felt/thought about them and I can't help it if you think it was wolvish.

I don't know what to make of Roa defending me so adamantly. Of course it's nice to have friends but I can't help the feeling that she'd be trying to attach herself to an innocent she agrees with and normally gets along with like that. But then again, she and I have sort of formed alliances once or twice in past games when we've thought each other innocent. Bleargh.

Valier's role surprised me, I have to say. It didn't occur to me she could be a cobbler, she looked so much more like a wolf. But I don't really mind, of course (good choice, Nienna!).

Where are Kath and Gwath?

I currently feel better about Nerwen and worse about Fea.

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.Agreed. Although Nienna is more or less on the top of my "who's innocent" list.

Unlike Nienna, I'm not surprised to see Roa alive. True, she is very dangerous to the wolves when innocent, but she also always creates a lot of mess and contradictory feelings, so as long as the wolves think they can pull it off, it makes sense to keep her. But that, of course, is no proof she's innocent. I'm getting more and more confused about her.

I agree with Nerwen about Brinn's death, although I don't get how come the death frames her in a game where there's no seer. It is interesting what Nerwen says about Roa and Kath.

I'm off now, but I'll be back later.

Roa_Aoife

09-26-2009, 07:12 AM

No, I'm not starting a war with Legate. This will be my last post of the Day. Most likely the game. I've got things to do today that will in all probability keep me past deadline.

Whoever you vote into captain, make sure it changes everyday. Only people who do not have the village's best interest at heart would want someone you can't possibly be certain of to have power over the lynch. The lynch is our weapon, don't hand it over without a fight.

We can't afford to have mistakes now. After I'm gone, the wolves who are surely trying to frame me (so look to the people who pointed out that Mac and Brinn both thought me innocent) will try to play down any suspicions I had of them or their fellows. "She was wrong about Boromir," they will say. They will conveniently for get that I was right about Rune.

Greenie first voiced more than just unease about me. Fea followed her suit. But Nienna brought it out toDay, and Legate has drawn upon the growing suspicion to get rid of his biggest accuser for him. His reasons are specious. The majority of people who answered my question answered it the same way, including him. I do not control how others vote, so all his supposed "hidden messages" in my text are a straw-man case. Remember that his case against me is constructed out of air, toMorrow.

If you think I'm being fatalistic, the most influential person in the village (if no one listens to me it doesn't matter how much I talk, I'm still not influential) has decided I'm suspicious, and enough people have suspicion of me that is ripe for harvesting. I'm not a fool. I've seen people lynched for using too many smilies, and Legate sounds like he's being reasonable even if he's not. The train has started and there's no stopping it now.

So then,

++Gwath for captain

I don't really care who gets elected as long as it's someone new everyday.

++Kath for NG

As a ranger I'd protect her, so I may as well do so as a villager

++Legate for lynch

even though it won't happen, it's important everyone knows where I stood toMorrow.

See you all in the next life (game).

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 07:44 AM

Okay, just two comments now to what's been said.

They will conveniently for get that I was right about Rune.
Quite the contrary. Though the fact that stating that you suspect Rune was almost the first thing you said at all does not make it an argument for your innocence. Wolf-on-Wolf suspicion in the beginning is a thing that occurs from time to time, and you and Rune, of all people, don't seem to me like the ones who would have problems with doing that, if it came to that. Especially as you were both running for Captains (you from "natural" causes, which was to be expected as much as that some people would support me for a Captain, too; and Rune after he declared it himself that he wants to be one).

I don't really care who gets elected as long as it's someone new everyday.

Okay, just a note. Even if you were innocent, I think this is a rather unclever way of thinking. If you are afraid of having a Cap in power for too long, is putting totally random people into power any better? And okay, nothing against Gwath, but he certainly hasn't been around the most, and I didn't notice that you would have expressed any strong feeling of his innocentishness in order to make you vote him. (And if it's a bait for us to start suspecting Gwath after you are lynched and revealed as a Wolf, then I am not going to take it, at least. But let's see.)

Aside from that, your, indeed, as you say, "fatalistic" attitude supports it even more for me: of course, RL things aside, it's understandable if you can't be here anymore, but you avoided speaking more or replying more, which could save you from having to express much of your thoughts on others (you hardly mentioned anybody at all) and thus risking exposing fellow comrades, which is always a dilemma for a dying Wolf. I am willing to take the risk if you are innocent. I think you are not.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-26-2009, 07:47 AM

Thanks dear. Why would I want to kill Brinn? I assume that is what you are accusing me of.

Because you live with her and because last time you and I played together, you told me it was a good thing I had to withdraw from the game because you and your fellows planned on killing me that Night anyway, just to simplify your life.

Yeah, Brinn's death might be a setup, or it might just be a coincidental trail-less kill, but it might also be a were-Nienna covering her bases. Kill Brinn first night? No, too obvious. Wait a bit and then kill her? Sure, why not.

Like I said, it could easily not point to your guilt. Everything is circumstantial in this game anyway.

But really, dear, are you denying that it's something you'd do? Because my sweet, you're my RL Person. I know you better than that. Even if it's not something you did do, it's certainly something you would do.

A Little Green

09-26-2009, 08:30 AM

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.
Which basically means that you want to be captain, mind you. Or, "mind you" - surely I do not have to remind you of that, you must be aware of it. You are the third person, and have been so since Day 1, apart from me and Nienna now (and okay, Rune on the first Day), who seems to have good enough support to become a Captain. So in other words, by insisting on switching the Captains, you also ask for becoming a Captain - indirectly.Why is it that everytime I come up with some clever point I read the thread only to find that someone else has already stated it? Because this is exactly what I thought when I saw Roa's post. She would have known when posting that that many people would be voting her.

I don't like Roa's last post. It doesn't feel innocent. An innocent, I'd think, would be more inclined to state their opinions on people etc, whereas Roa just puts up this martyr show even when no one has voted her yet and a few have voiced suspicion of her. I don't like it. It looks somehow calculatedly hysterical.

I'm currently quite torn about Lommy. Given Roa's recent behaviour and the fact that I suspect her, Lommy's careful vote of Roa for Captaincy seems quite bad. It's not open support, it's more like calculated hesitation before voting her as Captain in order to make it look less obvious. I don't like it. But then, Lommy did seem sort of genuine when I Night-talked with her. I don't know, maybe I should know better after being royally fooled by her in live WW a couple of times, but somehow I can't see a wolf deliberately settling on Night-talking in RL rather than via PM. After all, in writing you can phrase your answers more carefully and the one you're talking to can't read your expressions, tones of voice, etc. I don't know, though: at times her phrasing of things and her tone and such didn't seem natural, but it might of course just be due to talking about WW in RL which is a thing neither of us is used to.
I don't think that'd be too much of a problem - people suspect her well enough and she would only be the Captain for one Day and Night. And remember a vocal villager only has as much power as we give her. Actually here is another Lommy quote that can be categorised as subtle support of Roa: it says nothing at all like "I trust Roa, you should do so too!" which would be way too obvious, but instead hints vaguely at that it wouldn't be all that dangerous to vote Roa for Captain *wink wink*. So yes, if Roa is a baddie it makes Lommy look worse.

Nienna

09-26-2009, 09:06 AM

But really, dear, are you denying that it's something you'd do? Because my sweet, you're my RL Person. I know you better than that. Even if it's not something you did do, it's certainly something you would do.

The situation between Brinn and I is slightly different between our situation, dear. You and I lived in the same bedroom where my computer was visible to you whenever you were in the room. You also know me, and my former packmates, very well so killing you was the logical thing to do to get rid of a threat to us. Brinn and I do not live in the same room and my computer is hardly ever visible to her. She made it fine as a wolf last game without killing me. If I was a wolf and killing people who were close to me you would have been the first to go, Fea. You defy even your own logic. If people are suspected every time one of their RL friends die in the game we would get nowhere. It maybe something to keep in mind but that you can loose entire confidence in me, who you do know very well, from the death of Brinn makes me suspect you even more.

how was sally, Nienna? Anything to add to your Nightly campfire discussion?

Sally's gained my full trust. She is now up there with you, Legate, on the people who are innocent list. We didn't get a chance to talk with Kath much but from what we did get to say I'm leaning innocent for her.

I'm trying to figure out what is with Roa's obsession Gwath. She voted to NG him yesterday and toDay voted him to be captain. There must have been a reason she picked him because if she wanted to give it to anyone who isn't me then it would seem like she would pick Lommy who she wanted to give it to yesterday. What is also concerning is she is making the captain to be a big deal and yet she is willing to give it to any person (and chooses Gwath who only voted for one role - NG - on time and who voted to lynch someone who was going to be killed anyway... not to mention the fact that he didn't vote at all on Day One).

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-26-2009, 09:10 AM

If I was a wolf and killing people who were close to me you would have been the first to go, Fea. You defy even your own logic.

I do not. You and Brinn share a small apartment. You and I are a few hundred miles apart. Mental closeness isn't nearly as troublesome in werewolf games as physical proximity.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 09:27 AM

I'm trying to figure out what is with Roa's obsession Gwath. She voted to NG him yesterday and toDay voted him to be captain. There must have been a reason she picked him because if she wanted to give it to anyone who isn't me then it would seem like she would pick Lommy who she wanted to give it to yesterday. What is also concerning is she is making the captain to be a big deal and yet she is willing to give it to any person (and chooses Gwath who only voted for one role - NG - on time and who voted to lynch someone who was going to be killed anyway... not to mention the fact that he didn't vote at all on Day One).
Well, I would be careful with this, for I wouldn't put it past Wolf-Roa to try to lay some false trails to other people. Because it is really weird for her to vote for Gwath, she likely would have realised we would consider that weird, and so maybe it's done deliberately. Well, whatever - in our current situation we can't judge it much well anyway.

I do not. You and Brinn share a small apartment. You and I are a few hundred miles apart. Mental closeness isn't nearly as troublesome in werewolf games as physical proximity.

Okay, just a general remark - please, people, let's try to keep RL out of this as much as possible. I know it just goes like that sometimes, but I am always strongly against putting any meta-game reasons into the game, even if I could use them myself. It's mainly because people can hardly follow the suspicions raised in there, it may be a reason for one person, but it says nothing to the rest, they can't even determine if somebody lies or is twisting things etc. because they don't know the others in RL. I know, it's a problem, I've been facing that sometimes myself, but... well, just let's try to limit it to the minimum. It really is not "proper" WW.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-26-2009, 09:42 AM

It really is not "proper" WW.

Well in that case, "I now suspect Nienna, but I can't tell you why because it wouldn't be proper, so I'll just keep my reasoning to myself."

Does that really make people feel better?

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 09:42 AM

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...)
[LIST]

Lommy, no doubt not all wolves would want to be Captain – but in my view it would, despite your points, give a big advantage, especially the tie-breaking and lynch-cancelling– and they'd want that in a game with so many gifteds. Especially on Day One– they couldn't know they were going to get the Master Hunter that Night (EDIT: And now there are fewer gifteds but also fewer baddies, so it still holds). I'm thinking now they might in fact have fielded a backup candidate. It would make sense, anyway.

If you think I'm being fatalistic, the most influential person in the village (if no one listens to me it doesn't matter how much I talk, I'm still not influential) has decided I'm suspicious, and enough people have suspicion of me that is ripe for harvesting. I'm not a fool. I've seen people lynched for using too many smilies, and Legate sounds like he's being reasonable even if he's not. The train has started and there's no stopping it now.

So then,

++Gwath for captain

I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said several times already– but honestly, I don't like the whole "poor me" tone of that post. Really, it's like blackmailing. And it seems excessive when no lynch votes had been cast except your own.

And I mean– Gwath? Gwath who?

On a more practical note, that NG vote for Kath doesn't count. You can't be a Guard two Nights in a row.

EDIT:X'd with 1 Legate and 2 Feas.
EDIT2:Added comment.

satansaloser2005

09-26-2009, 09:44 AM

Here and sleepy but reading.

Quick list:

Innocent:
Kath
Legate (?)
Nerwen
Nienna
Sally
Duck
Phantom

Suspicious:
Everyone else

Gonna see who looks the easiest to analyze, as I'm slacking off and I've got time right now.

EDIT: x'd with Fea and Nerwen. Thanks for the headsup about the NG, by the way. I'll make sure I handle Kath accordingly.

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 09:50 AM

What is frustrating is that yesterDay was pretty much all about Legate and toDay looks like it's going to be all about Roa.

We need to look at other people. There's three wolves, after all.

EDIT:X'd with Sally.

Kath

09-26-2009, 10:10 AM

Hi all. Just to let you know I will be leaving for work at 7ish my time so am a little time limited again but I will pretty much be around solidly from now til then. I do need to read up on what happened yesterDay and what's gone on so far toDay so I might not post for a bit but I am around.

Nienna

09-26-2009, 10:14 AM

We need to look at other people. There's three wolves, after all.

I agree. Lets look at Fea too.

Legate: I am hesitant about Gwath for the same reason. I really hope he participates some more so we can get a better idea about him.

I'm now commencing a major look at Roa as promised.

Sally, if you haven't picked someone to analyze I think Fea doesn't have too many posts so it shouldn't take you terribly long.

Edit: x-ed with Kath.

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-26-2009, 10:25 AM

There is something wildly fun about the prospect of helping a male sibling shop for clothing. Not an opportunity to pass up.

And I'm not sure if I'll be back before DL.

++Lommy for Captain

++Greenie for NG

++Lynch Roa.

If she wants to consider herself a lost cause, who am I to take that away from her?

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 11:25 AM

And now I have to go. I hope to be back later.

Look, I'm happy to give Nienna another go as Captain (yes, despite what Fea says about her).

++Nienna for Captain

++Gwath for Night Guard

Nogrod

09-26-2009, 11:30 AM

On a more practical note, that NG vote for Kath doesn't count. You can't be a Guard two Nights in a row.You're quite right.

To be more precise: no one can be voted as an NG two Nights in a row - and no one can be picked as a BG two Nights in a row. Those two are the only restrictions.

ADD ON: If Roa happens to come back toDay she can change that NG-vote to make it a valid one.

Kath

09-26-2009, 11:50 AM

Mac was killed by the wolves. I must say I found this surprising. When Rikae had to drop out and Mac joined in her place I had sort of assumed that he must have some kind of role as otherwise Rikae would have just dropped out and left the game with fewer people. Because she felt it important to make sure someone took over, I just figured it meant she was something. Given the number of Hunters in this game it surprised me the wolves didn’t leave Mac be in case he was one.

Roa – look at those who defended Rune and voted Hakon as the wolves may have tried to help Rune make Captain. With three other wolves I think there are almost too many options though. Yes one might have defended Rune, but one might have been outright against him and one might have given a staunch defense of someone else and ignored Rune … it’s as good a place to start as any I just don’t think it will give you any very definitive answers. I do agree about having a new captain each Day. If the Captain is a wolf we definitely don’t want them having extra power, and even if they’re innocent there’s nothing to say that bad decisions wouldn’t be made. Analyses Boro. Good work, but I felt that Boro was being his typical ‘it’s Day 1, let’s play!’ self and so bits of poor reasoning or seemingly random actions were actually just that. He wasn’t trying yet. Analyses Legate – pretty much comes to the conclusion that he is suspicious. On reading through I can see many of her points. The seeming flip-flop on whether a captain should be allowed to gain more power or not. The going round in circles of reasoning (that’s why I always find Nog suspicious!). What she says about his dealings with Rune are interesting too. I would want to look at Legate again myself though rather than base any opinion on another’s analysis. That said I don’t feel Roa was twisting anything to her point. When she saw a reasonable point she allowed it to remain one. Ah I see why Roa is suspicious –she think Legate is trying to retain the captaincy. Not sure about that but I can see where she’s coming from. Analyses Greenie – interesting if she really did think one way for Hakon and the other for Rune if they did the same thing, though of course a lot can depend on knowing the person. We all know Rune is a bold player. I for one don’t know Hakon at all. Defends Lommy but maybe only because Legate was suspecting her.

Valier – turned out to be the Cobbler. I can see why Fea was suspicious of her. She said the posts were ‘synthetic’ I think, and that’s about the right word. Why mention Boro? As we now know Boro was innocent it seems like she’s trying to throw suspicion at him. None of the statements really end. ‘I must also say that I was quite surprised at Rune being a wolf.’ … because? Interesting that the Cobbler would want a powerful captain. I suppose whether wolf or innocent the captain could potentially cause chaos, always interesting to a cobbler.

Fea – suspects Valier. Votes Roa for speaking sense. Given that I agree about the captain issue I can understand this. I have just realised what I’ve just written about captains exactly echo’s what Fea said. Says she didn’t trust Legate but is now feeling better about him – I found the same thing. Very non committal. Says nice things about Nienna.

Legate – did no one else wonder about Mac’s role before he died? Legate seems to assume that Mac was a trailless kill, or perhaps had Ranger hinted (I think that’s what he’s getting at). On the side of actually letting a Captain have some powers. I can see the interest in seeing how the role would work but I think it’s too dangerous. Defends his reasoning. I can see his point, yes whatever a captain did s/he would have to answer for it the next Day, the trouble is that by that Day the damage would already have been done. Fairly sound defence here. Wants to look at Lottie and Valier as they voted Rune for captain. Starts to get a bit cross. A little early to be getting so defensive but he is a major figure right now so most people are focusing on him. Suspects Lommy for not flip flopping enough and being worried about him .Also seems too confident about Hakon being innocent. Takes himself out of the running for captain by voting Nienna.

Nienna – confused by Fea’s vote as she wants either to stick with a captain or not have one. I think it would be a shame to just not have one, having more people being voted for and a role that much of the discussion centres round has really opened things up I feel. But I still wouldn’t want to keep a captain long enough to give them that much power. Defends (ish) Legate and suspects Fea. Same point as me about doing own analysis not relying on someone elses. Analyses Nerwen (why?) and concludes she seems innocent. Thinks only an innocent should be captain and as she thinks Legate is the person she sees as most innocent he should stay captain. Fair reasoning, I just worry about the power. Thinks Valier and Lottie suspicious – again like everyone else I think. Thinks Valier bandwaggoned and has no substance.

Lottie – a list post but with nothing behind it. Voted Rune for captain because he seemed confident. I think that’s fairly good reasoning actually. If you’re going to have a captain who has the power to break ties etc you do want someone who will be involved and around at the deadline and who won’t waste the chance.

Sally – thinks Brinn is a wolf, just a feeling. Thinks Rune might have been trying to frame Valier so doesn’t want to vote for her. Also some suspicion of Lottie but again doesn’t want to lynch her because she’s new. Asks to be talked with. Interesting but I did talk with her and she came across as very innocent.

Nerwen – round in circles about how the wolves might be acting. Lists the votes to look for connections. Doesn’t really seem to go anywhere with that. By the way Nerwen, I did vote on Day 1. Analyses Mac and ends up thinking that it actually wasn’t a trailless kill but might be being used to try and push suspicion on people. I think it a little odd that she wanted to get a new lynch candidate in.

Brinn – now this wolf kill I do think was simply a trailless one. (Sorry, jumping to the next Day here a bit.) With the knowledge that she wouldn’t be around much I think it was an easy and somewhat mean kill. Said she would have suspected Rune the Day before, maybe but then it’s always easier to say that in hindsight. Thinks Lottie is a little suspicious but wants to leave her as she’s a newbie. Fair enough. Thinks Valier would not have communicated so much with Rune if also a wolf so won’t vote her. Votes Nerwen due to bad vibes. Not great reasoning but she was playing catch up.

Gwath – complains about people putting in lists to supplement their post count. Might have been a dig at Nerwen. Actually says what I’d have been thinking if around that Day, why not lynch Boro anyway and only lose one person rather than two. But then no one really knew what was going on with that anyway.

Lommy – I think there’s a little dig at Roa there. Thinks Legate is being too careful. On this occasion I disagree. Day 1 I didn’t like his playing style, but having read through his Day 2 posts I feel that they’re actually reasonable and well made points. Good reasons from Lommy for not wanting him to remain captain though. Again this assumption that Mac was a no trace kill. Thinks Valier suspicious. Says she may vote Roa for captain but worries that once she is captain no one will want her to stop being captain. Interesting idea actually, especially as there is a little contingent that would like to see a stable captain. Interesting use of the night guard role. Lottie and Valier suspicious, same reasons as most others.

Greenie – takes Legate’s reasoning for her own about walking the line on Rune. I mean fair enough, yes you could want someone to just be in the village without wanting them to be captain. Odd. Says she’d be fine with keeping Legate as captain but also says that she’s not convinced about seeing a captain with full powers. Yet surely if Legate stayed captain that Day he’d have ended up with full powers? Still doesn’t actually answer about that even when asked directly. Bit worried about Lottie. Thinks she personally wouldn’t have found Valier suspicious but thanks to everyone else now does. Worried about Roa and Lommy.

Captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa
Nienna – Legate
Sally – Nienna
Roa – Lommy
Nerwen - Nienna
Greenie – Nienna
Valier – Legate
Legate - Nienna

Night guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath
Nienna – Nerwen
Roa - Gwath
Nerwen - sally
Valier – Lommy
Greenie – Kath
Legate – Nerwen
Gwath - Lommy

Lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier
Nerwen - Lottie
Valier – Lottie
Sally – Lottie
Greenie – Valier

Right, off to get some food now. Will return and have a (quick!) look at toDay and then vote and go!

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 11:55 AM

While I am not yet fully committed to Roa's being a wolf (honestly, I'm not sure it's ever a good idea to trust Legate completely), I must say Fea's last post does have a distinct throwing-your-mate-under-the-bus look to it. So I agree, Fea needs looking at too.

Also, now that we know the Night Traitor helped elect Rune, we need to think about how likely it is that she was the only other baddie involved (since that also answers the question of whether Loslote is a wolf or not). It's possible, since Valier and Rune had perhaps managed to guess each other other's identities – he voted her for NG, anyway.

Which reminds me– I meant to comment on this before:

It's exactly the fact that 1) I didn't vote you and 2) you didn't even get the most votes, so I may be displeased.

Considering that a.) the party who got the most votes was Runewolf, and b.) it was only because he voted for himself... this struck me as quite funny.:D

That's all from me for the moment. I'm not ready to cast a lynch-vote yet– hopefully I'll be back in time for that.

EDIT:X'd with Kath and Nogrod.

Kath

09-26-2009, 11:58 AM

Sorry, while I busy, could someone possibly put up a vote tally so far?

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 12:06 PM

Vote Tally

Captain
Roa –> Gwath
Fea –> Lommy
Nerwen –> Nienna

Guard
Roa –> Kath (Invalid vote)
Fea –> Greenie
Nerwen –> Gwath

Lynch
Roa –> Legate
Fea –> Roa

Kath

09-26-2009, 12:11 PM

I'm sorry, I'm out of time. If that major grammatical mistake in my last post doesn't make it clear enough that I'm rushing nothing else will! So I have to vote now.

++ LOMMY for Captain

Because I don't want the same Captain two Days in a row I'd rather not vote Nienna despite feeling some trust for her. I didn't agree with Legate's points on Lommy and don't think her that suspicious so I'd like to see her as Captain.

++ FEA for night guard

She hasn't been all that involved and I'd like to see her around for a bit longer.

++ GREENIE

From my analysis of yesterDay she was the one I found myself the most suspicious of because while she is usually fairly self-sufficient when it comes to voting and making judgements of people she felt to be following the crowd a lot.

Anyway, I'm off now.

Nerwen

09-26-2009, 12:16 PM

By the way Nerwen, I did vote on Day 1

Sorry, I must have missed it. Who did you vote for?

I think it a little odd that she wanted to get a new lynch candidate in.

I brought up Loslote, if that's what you mean, because I thought either she or Valier could be evil, and because I didn't want the voting to end up as a single bandwagon. What's wrong with that?

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

Nienna

09-26-2009, 12:31 PM

Sally: What think you about Kath?

Feanor of the Peredhil

09-26-2009, 12:44 PM

I'm back much sooner than expected.

But tomorrow's my mama's birthday and my present for her isn't done (er... isn't started) so my afternoon's booked, since I don't want to work on it when she's here to see.

So I'll check in, but don't expect too much activity.

satansaloser2005

09-26-2009, 12:51 PM

Nienna: I think she's okay. In fact....

++Kath for Captain

I won't complain if Nienna stays in, but if not her I think Kath would be okay too.

++Guard Nienna

I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:18 PM

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:27 PM

Okay, just a note. Even if you were innocent, I think this is a rather unclever way of thinking. If you are afraid of having a Cap in power for too long, is putting totally random people into power any better? And okay, nothing against Gwath, but he certainly hasn't been around the most, and I didn't notice that you would have expressed any strong feeling of his innocentishness in order to make you vote him. (And if it's a bait for us to start suspecting Gwath after you are lynched and revealed as a Wolf, then I am not going to take it, at least. But let's see.)

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:28 PM

I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

Hurry up, I'm curious.

Nienna

09-26-2009, 01:29 PM

Roa: Day One

3 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611055&postcount=3). Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG
12 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611064&postcount=12). Wonders where the village is
22 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611074&postcount=22). Asks Rune why he wants to be captain; she has no logistical problem with being captain – I agree with Legate on this post… it seems almost like she set herself up to then answer the question
23 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611075&postcount=23). Finds Rune suspicious because he seems so eager
28 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611080&postcount=28). Is confused by Boro’s use of quotes
41 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611095&postcount=41). Asks Boro what other motive Fea could have for adding “nothing more complicated than that” to her retraction post where she used Boro to vote and retract. This seems like it could be a subtle defense of a packmate
55 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611116&postcount=55). A wolf could always try bluffing. And seeing as there are four wolves, they can try out more than one strategy to get one of themselves picked. I, for one, don’t believe that people who want power should have it. But a wolf could always be subtle: “Sure, you could vote for me, if you want… not that I care, or anything…” This is eerily similar to what actually happened... like it could be a coincidence but it sounds like insider knowledge; comments about Boro’s behavior; says he didn’t really answer her and asks again
56 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611117&postcount=56). Another where is everyone post
60 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611121&postcount=60). Asks me a bunch of questions like who I suspect, etc.
62 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611125&postcount=62). Is probably going to vote someone who isn’t here for captain so that they can’t do any damage – I don’t particularly like this logic; Boro’s her top suspect, comments that no one is posting
63 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611126&postcount=63). Might actually vote someone who isn’t around as NG as apposed to captain I think
67 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611130&postcount=67). Defends her suspicion of Boro
72 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611135&postcount=72). Says that an innocent villager would act really helpful and make a lot of sense (just like Val suggests a wolf would do to get elected captain) and she says that if we start lynching people who are helpful we wouldn’t get anywhere – This seems like a “please don’t lynch me for being a helpful wolf because I could be a helpful ordo"
75 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611138&postcount=75). Frustrated by lack of posts, doesn’t want to lynch Boro because he is posting, defends Fea
93 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611157&postcount=93). Analyzes Nerwen: I doesn’t seem like she finds her suspicious
102 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611166&postcount=102). Analyzes Rune: says the most suspicious thing is his ploy for captain but says it seems like it might be too obvious for a wolf. Here’s the quote: It seems really obvious, almost too obvious for a wolf ploy, but then, I’ve pulled obvious stunts as a wolf before and gotten away with it…) … The last sentence concerns me and it seems like she is trying to feel out how others will take him before deciding that way she can go either way and say it is wolfish or too bold to be a wolf.
103 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611167&postcount=103). Zil: only concerned that he isn’t around
112 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611178&postcount=112). Fea: says her posts are fine, expects a little more from her, wonders why she isn’t being aggressive. Seems a bit noncommittal
114 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611180&postcount=114): Strange logic about picking someone who isn’t around as captain. She seems to think that people who aren’t around for Day wouldn’t be around for Night so it would be safe to give the captaincy to them
125 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611191&postcount=125). Thinks that there might be a quiet wolf hiding, asks Rune why he wants to be captain
127 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611193&postcount=127). Votes to guard Brinn because “if I was a wolf, I'd kill her.” – and now Brinn is dead
131 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611197&postcount=131). Sally: finds her strange for not expanding on any of her suspicions
133 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611199&postcount=133). Suspects Boro and Hakon
145 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611211&postcount=145). Still suspects Hakon for being weird
153 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611219&postcount=153). Doesn’t trust Rune enough to make him captain so votes Legate for captain
159 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611227&postcount=159). In a matter of 26 posts goes from not even having Rune on her suspicion list to voting to lynch him (3 hours before deadline). She even said in 133 that she likes having 3 top suspects but could only come up with Boro and Hakon.
193 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611263&postcount=193). Thinks captains should be changed regularly
195 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611267&postcount=195). Doesn’t like Lottie jumping on something Val said
201 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611274&postcount=201). Doesn’t want people to NG her because she is too suspicious to be killed at night
204 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611277&postcount=204). Gives her suspicion of Rune after voting him
253 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611328&postcount=253). Jumps on Boro again

Day 2 to follow depending on how much time I have

Edit: x-ed with Gwath x3

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:30 PM

No one here? Guess I'll go read what Roa said about Legate since I missed that day.

[Oh, crossed with Nienna]

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 01:34 PM

Here's my take: the wolves don't need to get one of their number into the Captain at the beginning of the game, since the innocents are more than likely to kill each other anyway - but as the game progresses, it will become more and more important for the wolves to have that lynch-canceling, tie-breaking power of a Captain. Maybe it's not a problem now, but it certainly will be in a Day or two. We'll have to be extra careful who we elect.

Hey, now that was a really, really good point and well said - so I think enough to excuse you for being away for long otherwise. (That doesn't mean, though, that I'd be encouraging you in being away :) ) Anyway, that's just what I thought of at this moment - it's not a problem yet, but definitely for the future, let's say in a Day or two, I would be against having Captain for more than one Day. Now before everybody of the "no power for Captains" party starts shouting "We were telling you from the very beginning!", I emphasise that it goes for the late Days, when a lynch-cancelling power in an innocent's hands would be more powerful than ever, but in Wolf's hands even more disasterous than ever. With many people in the village, the Wolves will yet, I believe, not dare to misuse the lynch-cancel in any drastic way. Because if they did, they would need to explain themselves and may end up lynched themselves. But in the end, there might as well remain nobody to perform the justice on them. Thus, if our numbers thin in the future, then I am against multiple Captain Days.

And maybe even... once the Captain loses the power to communicate with his Nightly mates (not sure when this occurs, maybe it's only with some really low number of players, but anyway), maybe from that point on it would be the best to have no Captain at all. (But certainly not as long as he still can elect his BG! That is a VERY strong means to protect fellow villagers.)

EDIT: x-ed since the post I quoted

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:37 PM

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:40 PM

Continuing with this theoretical train of thought, eventually it might even be best to elect no Captain at all unless they are practically a known innocent. Theoretically.

Oh sorry Legate, you already said this. :o

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 01:42 PM

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 01:59 PM

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.
Ha, okay, if it works like that, then okay :D

Roa: Day One

3 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611055&postcount=3). Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG

Well, actually... that was one thing that I praised on first sight, but later it was one of the things which made me worried about Roa. Because again, this thing has two edges, whereas they may not be so apparent on first sight. The reason why I didn't mention it earlier is first what I already said (I didn't want to pull out the case against Roa very early in case she was innocent and the Wolves tried to frame her), and second that I am not sure if the thing I assumed it might mean worked out. The explanation of what is "the thing I assumed it meant", i.e. what I thought Roa's question might have been misused for, will follow.

To quote it precisely, in her very first post, the first post of the Day, the very first post on the thread, Roa said:

Alright, there is no doubt that this is a very complicated game with a lot of ways to die. So, let's get the most complicated thing out the way first- captain. Is there anyone who for any reason does NOT want to be captain (either for RL reasons, not comfortable with the role, etc.)? At least that will narrow down the options while we pick each other apart with angry paranoia.

Later, Hakon mentioned that we should take care not to vote Gifted for a Captain. It took quite a long while before somebody pointed it out, but it was a very, very serious point which made me aware of it - of course we should not be voting for a Gifted, as he won't be able to perform his Nightly tasks as a Captain. Understandable, is it? Well, but what does that mean? What can the thing Roa asked actually be used for?

Well, I think you already know the answer: for revealing Gifteds! Because: if what I said above is true (i.e. that Gifteds would not like to be chosen as Captain), then if you ask a Gifted whether he wants to be a Captain, the answer would be rather "no". And that means that you could theoretically determine who the Gifteds are based on what people have answered. And as a Wolf, you could then adapt the easy technique "let's kill everybody who answered 'no' and thus way we wipe out all the Gifteds".

Of course it is just theoretical model. It depends on many things, nobody says a Gifted could not answer "yes" genuinely, or be aware of the danger of being exposed and rather say "yes" even though he doesn't want to, but it's something which the Wolves might give a shot, just to see if perchance they can succeed in exposing somebody. Also, if ordos unisono reply "yes, no problem" and don't realise what this answer could mean - because they are not bothered by the idea as much as Gifteds could be and wouldn't necessarily think about the danger hidden in that - then they basically open the space for the Wolves to see, as they throw the Gifteds into a situation where the Gifted thinks "ok, everybody answered 'yes' with no hesitation, I would have preferred to avoid this topic, but now everybody answered and I need to answer, or I would stand out and be noticed, but I need to lie, or I would be noticed" or something like that.

So all in all, this is really one of the things that made me worried about Roa . I am also unsure whether she would have asked the question she asked had she been innocent, I think she's clever and she would have realised what it could be misused for.

EDIT: x-ed with three Gwaths

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 02:01 PM

Ha, here's an idea - Legate, I'd be interested to hear you summarize what Roa's arguments against you are. It would be informative to hear your perspective on it. Plus I'm lazy and don't feel like trying to find the original posts.

(EDITEDIT - sorry, misread - what I am replying to here is MY points against Roa)

Okay, you have one point right above - well, will it be enough if I linked you to one post of mine where I say it all? Or at least I think most has been said in one particular post... I will find it...

EDIT: okay, it's basically my post #450 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=611693&postcount=450). That sums up the most things, as that is where I brought my points into the open. But the post above is equally important.

EDITEDIT: Oh sorry. I misread. You meant what is MY perspective about ROA's points against ME? Okay. Wait a while!

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 02:15 PM

Regarding post #486, Legate - ok, interesting, but isn't that a little complicated??

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 02:19 PM

Okay, so you are asking, what is my perspective on Roa's points against me?

I have more or less been replying to it in the particular cases, so I really cannot sum it up. But more or less what was recurring was that she said I was "keeping repeating that Rune is innocent" (which I didn't, I said that "he could be innocent Rune" or something like that maybe once or twice, but mainly I just kept saying that I'm uncomfortable with lynching him, which is not the same, and the reasons for why I said that see below), "pushing myself for being a Captain" (not true, never said that), "having no real opinion" (or something of that sort, which I don't really understand) and that's probably it.

All in all, everything she brought against me can be described in one word: shallow. And I mean, really. It is no real case at all, and unless she voted me, I would not have even considered it anything "serious". I mean - if I was completely different player and been watching her saying this about another player, it would have seemed to me that she is just randomly babbling on the person's address. Neither of that is what I would call "a serious case". Like, I think she didn't even try to make any association of me with any Nightly kills, or try to provide my connection to some bandwagons or whatever. The thing which is closest to "proper" suspicion in her case would be my "support" for Rune (as she says it, whereas I have been discouraging people from voting Rune for Captain). Otherwise, like I said, I consider it rather "unserious" way of suspecting.

What I dislike of her accusations is her "dodging" - she never comments on my explanations (like that I was worried that Rune might be a Hunter and since he voted me, I was worried that he might target me and that is why I didn't dare to vote him) and seems to completely disregard them, pass them, let them be forgotten, and then she brings again the same case or makes a different one.

Well, hope that's enough for you.

Legate of Amon Lanc

09-26-2009, 02:23 PM

Regarding post #486, Legate - ok, interesting, but isn't that a little complicated??

Well, you mean the possible "plan"? Well, not really. It might be just a random shot - from the Wolves' part. It's really not any complicated, it's rather plain logic. If somebody got the "plop" idea, adding two and two from the rules, it's quite easy to use it the way I said, I think.

At least anyway it's what I thought of. Roa is clever player, so I have no problem with imagining that it could be something she might think of.

Nienna

09-26-2009, 02:38 PM

Here is the voting for Day One and Day Two

Known innocents are in italics, known wolves are underlined.

BORO
Guard: Inzil
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Lommy

SALLY
Guard: Valier; Kath
Captain: Legate; Nienna
Lynch: Rune; Lottie

GREENIE
Guard: No-one; Kath
Captain: Legate; Nienna
Lynch: Hakon; Valier

INZIL (ORDO)
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Hakon

ROA
Guard: Brinn; Gwath
Captain: Legate; Lommy
Lynch: Rune; Legate

NERWEN
Guard: Kath; Sally
Captain: Roa; Nienna
Lynch: Boro; Lottie

LOSLOTE
Guard: Boro
Captain: Rune
Lynch: Nienna

RUNE (WEREWOLF)
Guard: Valier
Captain: Himself!
Lynch: Legate

VALIER (COBBLER)
Guard: Roa; Lommy
Captain: Rune; Legate
Lynch: Loslote; Lottie

FEA
Guard: Nienna; Lommy
Captain: Roa; Roa
Lynch: Hakon; didn’t vote

NIENNA
Guard: Roa; Nerwen
Captain: Legate; Legate
Lynch: Rune; Valier

LOMMY
Guard: Valier; Nerwen
Captain: Roa; Roa
Lynch: Kath; Vailier

HAKON (MASTER HUNTER)
Guard: Brinn
Captain: Legate
Lynch: Rune

MAC (BERSERK HUNTER)
Guard: Kath (switched from earlier vote for Brinn)
Captain: Roa (switched from earlier vote for Kath)
Lynch: Hakon

LEGATE
Guard: Nienna; Nerwen
Captain: No-one; Nienna
Lynch: Lommy; didn’t vote

KATH
Didn't vote. Either day.

GWATHAGOR
Guard: Didn’t vote; Lommy
Captain: Didn’t vote; Didn't vote
Lynch: Didn’t vote; Boro Late

Gwathagor

09-26-2009, 02:45 PM