Hobbit movie progressing

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The Hollywood Reporter says:
Casting on “The Hobbit” begins this week, with wide auditions expected for each part except Gandalf, which is being reserved for Ian McKellen, who played the wizard in “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy.

“We’re auditioning for every role,” Jackson said in an interview, adding he is a big believer in casting a wide net to better match actors with the roles.....
Jackson denied that he had settled on any actors besides McKellen and pooh-poohed Web chatter that he has approached James McAvoy for a key role.

“Apart from Ian McKellen, who we obviously want to return as Gandalf, we are not really offering any roles to anybody until we’ve done a casting sweep,” Jackson said.

Casting is being handled out of Los Angeles and London.....

“(These movies) have never been a star-driven vehicle. The star is (author J.R.R.) Tolkien and the world he created. We are not under any pressure. We want to find the right people. Casting someone to portray a hobbit is not as easy as you might imagine. They have to have a particular type of physical appearance and a sensibility. And the same with an elf or a dwarf. These are fantastical characters, but you’ve got to find the right people to play them, the right humans to translate these characters.”

Jackson also denied earlier reports that production on “Hobbit” was delayed.
“It’s not,” he said, adding that the script for the first movie is completed and that collaborators Fran Walsh, Philippa Boyens and del Toro are in the middle of writing the second. They hope to deliver drafts to Warner Bros. and MGM, which are jointly backing the films, around Christmastime.

“We were always planning to shoot around April or May next year, and as far as I’m aware, we’re pretty much on target for that. It depends on how quickly the studio greenlights the film. It’s not in our hands. But as long as we‘re shooting next year, we’re fine.”


It would be interesting to see a list of the major/contributing parts being cast for. Among other things, it would give a hint as to how/if additional female roles will be contrived. I suppose you could have female spiders. :) How about making the Master of Laketown a woman. :eek: And how worried should one be that PJ and friends seem to have their hot little hands all over the scripts, considering how TTT and RoTK were-ah- emended.

[Mugwump]

with wide auditions expected for each part except Gandalf, which is being reserved for Ian McKellen....
And (I hope) Gollum? They're not thinking of casting someone other than Serkis, are they?! :o

[Morsul the Dark]

Auditions in LA... wonder where and when because I have Sooo much disposable income just to go over there... :(

[Mugwump]

Happily, I'm already guaranteed a role: ticket buyer at my local movie theater.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Good point about Andy Serkis. I assume that was just
an oversight. One possible ending for the second movie
could be Gollum leaving the mountain chain to go search
for Thief Baggins.

[Mithalwen]

And (I hope) Gollum? They're not thinking of casting someone other than Serkis, are they?! :o

I wish they would.. and McKellen. Seldom have performances been so over rated.... Ah well I tried to watch Pan's Labyrith again the other night and once again fell asleep after 5 minutes so I am really not hopeful about this in any way...

[Mugwump]

I disagree with you about McKellen and Serkis, but I agree about Pan's Labyrith.

For all the complaining people do about Peter Jackson's version of LotR, he still did a magnificent job and it's going to be incredibly hard for anyone to measure up to that standard.

[Mithalwen]

I thought the costumes etc were beautiful but I have never managed to sit through it all again. It just about worked in the cinema when it all washed over me but the CGI looks very dated now IMO. And the endless action scenes at the expense of character and plot bore me. But I am not the demographic they were aiming at.

I would have loved to see someone else try. I hate the idea that PJ is the only person who can interpret Tolkien. As a visual interpretation I much preferred the London version of the musical and the radio version has a hold on me that has endured twentyfive years.

I think McKellen is a lazy and mannered actor. He seems to be the same in everything these days and he always seemed to me to be Ian McKellen being Gandalf rather than just Gandalf. Vocally Peter Woodthorpe was incomparable as Gollum, visually Michel Therriault was superb without CGI. Some of Jackson's casting was great even if the actors were not as described in the books
but these two I could do without.

[Mugwump]

I hate the idea that PJ is the only person who can interpret Tolkien.
There is no widespread acceptance of such an idea. Like all good myth, Tolkien's world can, has been, and will be interpreted by many. There can be many good interpretations and versions of the same myth, and they need not all agree in every particular.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

About Andy Serkis returning, on TORN there's
this from del Toro.
About ONLY 3 actors returning: I think the emphasis on “only” is what slant the news the wrong way. I cannot imagine Gollum being played by anyone but Andy and in the second script there is still much in discussion to lock everything for now

I agree AS could be replaced, but apparently won't. So who's
the third, apparently guaranteed, returnee? Kate Blanchett? Or Agent Elrond?

[Rumil]

Leggie of course!!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Ah, ha! Legolas finally figures out that daddy, being an elf,
just might keep kinging for centuries so disguises himself
as a mortal (calling himself Bard) to start a kingdom around
Laketown. Brilliant! :cool:

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, you are right Tuor, it will probably be Agent Elrond. *Groan* I understand them wanting to make it tie seamlessly with the earlier work, but I wish they would try to improve upon it.

[Morsul the Dark]

This widespread "Hate" of the movies is kind of monotonous "Only Peter Jackson" I'm sorry he disagreed with You, I'm sorry that he is the one the studios picked. I'm sorry You don't Like the actors elrond could've been played by Rowan Atkinson and some people would love it some people would hate it. 6 BILLION people on Earth sorry some of you aren't happy.

I'm excited I feel unless they go insanely off course it will ne good.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I can only say that I'm glad that you you look forward to the movies with anticipation and not dread. That is a good thing.

Unfortunately, the Downs is one of the only places that some of us have to voice our bit of foreboding ...and where we might be understood for it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Morsul, my views of PJ's movies is mixed. The only one I really
can rewatch entirely is FoTR (the other two have individual
extremely inrritaing bits (the worst being Faramir's and
Denethor's movie characters presentation, overusing the green slime,
and Gandalf violating all precepts by physically assaulting Denethor
(wow, a maiar can push around a man!). But most of the casting was
spot on, some characters were actually improved (Boromir and
Arwen) and the cinematography and most of the cgi was spectacular.

The worry (and hope) is whether del Toro can and will rein in some
of PJ and friends excesses while keeping their positives.

Now there's a thought:
Guillermo del Toro: Part IV: A New Hope

[davem]

Filler piece in the Guardian the other day http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2009/dec/11/hobbit-lord-of-the-rings - article itself is pretty vacuous, but there are some interesting comments.

[Bêthberry]

Filler piece in the Guardian the other day http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2009/dec/11/hobbit-lord-of-the-rings - article itself is pretty vacuous, but there are some interesting comments.

I'm quite impressed that there are still people with the energy and vision and care to make such comments. I think my favourite phrase is the following:


the fabulous authenticity of the LOTR films.

I suspect, however, that my reading of the meaning of 'fabulous' just might be somewhat um, erm, historical. :D

[Mithalwen]

There is no widespread acceptance of such an idea. .

We clearly haven't been to the same websites..... when there was the blessed chance it would be someone else you would have thought the world was literally coming to an end in some quarters. I don't hate the movies... I reserve such emotions for more worthy targets. Its a curate's egg. I just find that I have more interesting things to do with my life than sit though them again on a TV screen.

Reagardless I think too much time has passed to try and shoehorn the Hobbit in to the established LOTR mould. Maybe one day when the copyrights have expired someone will do a remake that will tell the entire history of the Quest of Erebor and the War of the Ring without having to martyr themselves to continuity. Jackson's LOTR was Frodo's story and the one place where he was very faithful was following the hobbit centric perspective of the book. Personally I think you could tell the history as Aragorn's story and you solve a lot of the dramatic problems which apparently necessitated the more major changes. No doubt many would disagree.

However having made the Rings as a stand a lone film I think it would be better to do the same for the Hobbit. And I really can't see how they can stretch it out over two films. Is there really enough and will people be interested enough to go back months or a year later?


I adore Hugo Weaving and he might lure me in. I thought he was good as Elrond. It isn't a huge role and I guess he might well do it if asked. though maybe not if he has to tralalalally... ;)

[Lindale]

I'm hearing these ridiculous rumors in FB about Toby Maguire as Bilbo... was amusing at first, now I have to let it out of my chest and into the Downs. :o

[Mithalwen]

He wouldn't be my first choice but I don't think he would be a disaster.. he was quite good in Seabiscuit.

Some newspapers are reporting he is cast.

[Lindale]

He wouldn't be my first choice but I don't think he would be a disaster.. he was quite good in Seabiscuit.

Some newspapers are reporting he is cast.

Oh well, I suppose so. He isn't particularly awful anyway. But I hoped that they wouldn't get a too-pretty-boy like they did for the Legolas character.

[Sarumian]

I really like the idea to hire Del Toro. The only thing I regret is that it hadn't been Del Torro who shoot LOTR, while PJ should have been perfect for the light mood of The Hobbit. Del Toro is a black wizard of despair, who knows everything about hope beyond hope. He is a master of monsters as well. I was cought by the Fawn's Labirinth at once, though it is defenitely not very holly-woody. So I'm really curious about what he can do in (not with) Middle Earth.

As for two movies I can't see any credible possibility to make them of The Hobbit. Where they are going to finish the first one? In Beorn's land? It's going to be a strange stop because nothing is really resolved there. And after the victory over Smaug there is no enough events to make a proper movie.

What looks clear to me is that there should've been five, not three parts for the LOTR: 1) Escape to Rivendell; 2) The Ring Goes South; 3) Two Towers; 4) The Seidge of Gondor; 5) Farewell The Third Age. Each of them has approximately the same amount of things to happen. Just my oppinion, anyway.

[Eönwë]

What looks clear to me is that there should've been five, not three parts for the LOTR: 1) Escape to Rivendell; 2) The Ring Goes South; 3) Two Towers; 4) The Seidge of Gondor; 5) Farewell The Third Age. Each of them has approximately the same amount of things to happen. Just my oppinion, anyway.

Then they might as well have made a movie out of each book. But then it would probably a TV-series instead (which wouldn't be bad, actually).

[Airaloske]

if they add a bunch of stupid female characters or genderbend -ANY- of the dwarves, or add a bunch of sappy useless romance I will probably not go see it. I don't want one of my favorite stories to be ruined by PC pandering. The story is very straightforward and easy to understand, there is no reason to change a bunch of stuff around. If people can't understand The Hobbit, a very easy-to-read and lighthearted adventure story, then I really hold no hope for the next generation.

[Airaloske]

i'd also refuse to see it if they cast somebody terrible as Bilbo. I'm glad those Toby McGuire rumors were crushed, he would have been a terrible Bilbo, as the only thing I've ever enjoyed him in was Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Everything else, he looks like a cardboard cutout with a silly grin.

[Mithalwen]

if they add a bunch of stupid female characters or genderbend -ANY- of the dwarves, or add a bunch of sappy useless romance I will probably not go see it. .

But how will we know if they genderbend a dwarf?

[davem]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gMgm0dP-Z1_VuSo0sPu1HK20IGjA
Now, if they could only get the rest of Boyzone & Westlife to make up the remainder of the Dwarves & Simon Cowell for Gandalf.....

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Simon Cowell for Gandalf

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :eek:

(Better tell him not to ridicule Beorn)!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

There's a not uninteresting argument in TheOneRing.net for
a cameo by Orlando Bloom in TH. Why Orlando Bloom
should be in ‘The Hobbit’ Although the author seems
under the misapprehension that Gollum was confined in the
dungeons (not up a tree) in Mirkwood.

An excerpt:
So while Legolas had no explicit role spelled out in the text, Princes of Mirkwood wouldn’t miss events like the notable capture of Dwarves or the restoration of his father’s honor and kingdom via war.

Now if it were up to me, Bloom would probably not speak a word in either of the two Hobbit films but would stand behind Doug Jones Thranduil silently supporting and honoring his father. He would definitely be present at the flicks’ biggest battle doing low-key but unmistakable Legolas moves.

I don’t know that Bloom would agree to a part with no dialog but if he would it would be a classic nod to his non-mention in the books while providing a line of continuity from del Toro’s films to Jackson’s. It wouldn’t require a large time commitment either and would likely delight studios and financiers. It wouldn’t be an over-the-top, distracting cameo but a tasteful, clever and humorous walkthrough that would also feel just ‘right’.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In "interesting" news, TheOneRing reports that
Matthew Goode has auditoned for the role of Bilbo.

[mark12_30]

There's a not uninteresting argument in TheOneRing.net for
a cameo by Orlando Bloom in TH. Although the author seems
under the misapprehension that Gollum was confined in the
dungeons (not up a tree) in Mirkwood.


I do not think they kept him in the trees all the time.

‘ We guarded this creature day and night, at Gandalf’s bidding, much though we wearied of the task. But Gandalf bade us hope still for his cure, and we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth, where he would fall back into his old black thoughts.’... ‘In the days of fair weather we led Gollum through the woods; and there was a high tree standing alone far from the others which he liked to climb....


"keep him ever in dungeons" would nowadays be written "Keep him always in dungeons" or "leave him in dungeons all the time". I think he spent time in the dungeons. I think they periodically took him to the trees for recess, or Holiday.

[Morthoron]

Further construction on Hobbiton:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/03/30/35817-more-hobbiton-set-pics-4/

Please notice they've widened the doors so that PJ's head will fit through. ;)

[Herald_of_Mandos]

if they add a bunch of stupid female characters or genderbend -ANY- of the dwarves, or add a bunch of sappy useless romance I will probably not go see it. I don't want one of my favorite stories to be ruined by PC pandering.

Don't worry, apparently all that will be kept to a bare minimum– only Kili will be female. Word is that she's in male disguise, running away from an arranged Dwarven marriage with the aid of her twin brother Fili:http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/04/01/35816-fili-and-kili-concept/ (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/4/43/4e_dwarves.jpg/250px-4e_dwarves.jpg)

There's a lot of speculation on who will play the part, especially as it's still unclear whether or nor she'll have a beard:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/04/01/35817-kili-concept-1/ (http://th05.deviantart.net/fs28/300W/i/2008/104/8/3/Freja__Dwarf_Shield_Maiden_by_athenatt.jpg)
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/04/01/35818-kili-concept-2/ (http://th02.deviantart.net/fs4/300W/i/2005/135/d/2/Cheri_Littlebottom_by_RedLioness.jpg)

Kili's role as Bilbo's love interest– cut tragically short when she takes an arrow for him at the Battle of Five Armies– is to be treated in a very sensitive and understated manner, "faithful to the spirit, if not the letter, of Tolkien's work": http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/film/news/e3ice1c355368464e5cfe3992dddf46b871 (http://www.wondercliparts.com/holidays/april_fool/april_fool_graphics_08.gif)

Looks like Tolkien purists everywhere can heave a sigh of relief!:cool:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And in a bow to political correctness Bard will be played
by Uma Thurman. Peter Jackson explained that this will
be true to the spirit of Tolkien's Middle-earth mythology,
specifically citing the role of
Eowyn as a shield maiden and oliphaunt hamstring slicer.
At the conclusion of TH Part I Thorin and Co. arrive at
Bard's place to find her mourning the loss of her fiancee
when the necromancer's goblin minions entered their nuptial
celebrations and killed all of the wedding party but her. :eek:

Part II of TH is reported to also have some R rated violence
concluding with Bard's attack on the perpetrators at the Battle
of Five Armies.

[Lindale]

Should I give up hope of ever seeing TH on this lifetime? :(

[Brinniel]

Another setback for The Hobbit....

Del Toro has stepped out and will no longer be directing. :(

Full story. (http://www.empireonline.com/news/feed.asp?NID=28016)

[Inziladun]

"A hard Hobbit to break" is a quite clever phrase.

If they're going to do this, they ought to take some time and get the right director, and not just grab anyone who's willing to promise they can pick it up and hit the ground running.

[Rumil]

Just watching a chat show and Bill Bailey auditioned as Gloin - cool!

[Mithalwen]

You beat me to it... Bill Bailey is wonderful and certainly would indicate a lighter hearted approach... and he seems to really know his Tolkien which gives me a modicum of hope if he gets the part.
And the fact they are actually auditioning is interesting...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

More to the point, any casting for the rather more
important (?) dwarves of Balin, Bombur, Dori, and
of course, the great Thorin Oakenshield (the latter
being a rather difficult role to pull off just properly).

P.S. One reason (among others) to hope PJ isn't
directly involved is the probably over the top use he'd
make of the deaths of Fili and Kili.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Kind of an interesting report on Moviehole:
Australian actor Simon Westaway, seen recently on TVs "Underbelly", has auditioned for the role of lead dwarf Thorin Oakenshield in "The Hobbit", reports The Herald-Sun.

Oakenshield, being the leader of his people, was determined to reclaim the treasure stolen by Smaug.

[LadyBrooke]

New article http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEKFkQLON5dtOO.

According to both that article and imdb Ron Perlman, Doug Jones, and Kiran Shan are also going to be in. While Kiran Shan is probably going to be the double or stuntman for Bilbo's actor (he was Elijah Wood's), I really can't think of roles for the others.

Ron Perlman could possibly be Beorn, I guess.

On the other hand, Doug Jones kinda remind me of Dr. House. I have a fear that this is somebody's idea of Thranduil. If that happens I am starting a thread called "What part of "Elven Lords are not ugly" do you not understand Jackson?" Honestly Elrond and Celeborn where just ugly in Lord of the Rings. Does Jackson have something against Elf Lords? Arwen, Legolas, Galadriel, Haldir were all cast well.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting rumor (rumour :) ) on Screenrush.co.uk
about casting for TH, in part:

we have to assert that this incredible tidbit didn't come from the man himself but a close source has confirmed that he'll be playing "the second biggest lead" in the upcoming Lord Of The Rings prequel opposite Ian McKellen and Andy Serkis.

...McCoy's agent would neither confirm nor deny the story, choosing instead to elicit an enigmatic "no comment", but it has long been known that the Scottish actor came a close second to Peter Jackson's final choice of Bilbo, Ian Holm. Now that Holm is knocking on 78 and McCoy is but a sprightly 66, it's well within the realm of possibilty that the ex-Tardis dweller could be given a second stab at the role, perhaps as an older version of Baggins recounting the adventures of his early years.


If there's anything to this, I think I'd be an excellent casting choice.
Even as Dr. Who he struck me as a bit hobbitish/elvish.

[Mithalwen]

"What part of "Elven Lords are not ugly" do you not understand Jackson?" Honestly Elrond and Celeborn where just ugly in Lord of the Rings. Does Jackson have something against Elf Lords? Arwen, Legolas, Galadriel, Haldir were all cast well.


I have no option but to challenge you to a duel. ;) Hugo Weaving is not ugly. I myself have been quiet in love with him since 1985 and Bodyline and have followed his career devotedly since. I am not alone and can assure you he has a large and devoted not to say rabid fanbase. And not all are as old as I am.

I agree that Galadriel was well cast the rest mediocre... Hugo is wonderful but the lines and costumes they gave him -aieee ... lists don't grow thin..

[LadyBrooke]

I've never seen him or Marton in anything other than LotR so I'll bow down to your superior knowledge of Hugo and consider it all the movies fault.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

It just didn't work well in Weaving's scenes, and unfortunately I suspect editting and troublesome length constraints might have had much to do with it. The Elrond in my mind's eye has somewhat more distant, and possibily ethereal feel to him. And that too, I suspect, doesn't make for good popular film.

Edit:
After thinking a bit more about this, I think that the characters that weren't successfully portrayed from a Hobbit's point of view didn't come off nearly as well on the whole as the ones who were in the LotR movies. I do hope they keep this in mind when making the Hobbit, not that it will matter quite so much, being quite a different sort of book.

[Mithalwen]

I've never seen him or Marton in anything other than LotR so I'll bow down to your superior knowledge of Hugo and consider it all the movies fault.

You know it makes sense! :p

The only other thing that I have seen Marton Csoskas in was The Bourne Supremacy- in hand to hand combat with Matt Damon!... Kung-fu Celeborn might have been a step too far ..I always felt it was slightly peverse with the casting of Haldir, Celeborn and indeed Legolas that dark haired and dark eyed actors with olive skin were cast as light haired pale elves. Csoskas isn't ugly but you don't look at him and think elf. At least I don't...
Cate Blanchett with those amazing cheekbones is very well done and does seem ageless.

[LadyBrooke]

On the subject of casting elves, who do you all think should play Thranduil? Personally I like Jamie Campbell Bower, however, that might be a biased view since I also consider him the only thing that made watching New Moon fun besides the scene at the beginning where Jasper nearly killed Bella.

[Mithalwen]

well he looks elvish but he is a bit to young for Thranduil isn't he..or is it just that I am getting old?

[LadyBrooke]

I always imagined Thranduil in his mid to late twenties, so he's only a couple years too young for me. And when it comes to the elves I'd rather they were on the too young side then the too old side when casting. Though I suppose I'll hold off further opinions of him until November, when I see him in Deathly Hallows or if I manage to catch Camelot next year.

[Mithalwen]

It may well be an age thing.. I suppose it could work if you played the Elvenking as a petulant boy-king but since the Hobbit is meant to be a prequel to the extant LOTR films rather than standing alone.. I can't help thinking this guy would seem ludicrous as Orli's Dad..especially if Orli did a cameo. Not having seen him act I wouldn't know if he has the necessary gravitas for the later scenes.

If there is any notice paid to the "history" of Middle Earth, then Thranduil is an elf of great age, one who fought in Mordor and led a fraction of his people home and now has to fight again. for my money you need an actor who has reached full manhood and that for me means late twenties to early forties even if they are aging well. Elves may not have beards until the third cycle, but for my money I want an actor who needs to shave! I rather liked the idea of Jasobn Isaacs but he is now perhaps too old and too associated with Malfoy :(

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A complicating factor for Thranduil could be PJ's probable
inability to resist reprising Legolas. (Just got a picture of
hundreds of elves at the Battle of Five Armies skateboarding
down slopes to attack orcs).

[LadyBrooke]

What you mean you don't like super elf Orli ? ;)

Seriously I suppose that part of my inability to accept actors older than 35 for Thranduil is the fact that I felt the elves in LotR looked too old or human. Bower is light haired and light skinned naturally, which would fix some of the problems I had with Celeborn and Legolas. Jason Isaacs would have been a good actor but he's 47 now...Honestly though at the rate filming is going all the actors will be too old.

I think with the elves though getting the age part right is difficult. My imaginings have always been based off of the quote, "...but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes;..." Granted that quote was solely about Galadriel and Celeborn, but I can't imagine Thranduil looking older than them. At the same time I can understand not wanting them to look too young.

One of the other things worrying me about the coming movie is how close they'll stick costume wise to the book. Tolkien doesn't spend much time on clothing but what he does describe is intricate to the characters, in my opinion. The dwarves need different colored hoods, Bilbo needs his handkerchief*, the wood elves need their gems on their colors and belts, and Thranduil needs his crown of flowers.

*Why does Elrond have a red silk handkerchief to give Bilbo?

[Inziladun]

Found this (http://www.dunoon-observer.com/index.php/news/1-news/827-chieftain-confirms-exciting-new-role), which gives Sylvester McCoy as a cast choice for The Hobbit.
Laying aside the fact that I'm not a Doctor Who fan and I don't think I've heard of him before, theonering.net (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/08/28/38114-sylvester-mccoy-up-for-radagast-the-brown/) says he could be up for the part of Radagast. Perhaps he's going to harbour Bilbo and the Dwarves at Rhosgobel so they can leave out Beorn entirely. ;)

[davem]

Found this (http://www.dunoon-observer.com/index.php/news/1-news/827-chieftain-confirms-exciting-new-role), which gives Sylvester McCoy as a cast choice for The Hobbit.


Interesting trivia - McCoy played the Fool opposite Ian McKellan's Lear at the RSC in 2007 - http://www.rsc.org.uk/explore/past-productions/king-lear/2007-video-a1s5.aspx

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Found this (http://www.dunoon-observer.com/index.php/news/1-news/827-chieftain-confirms-exciting-new-role), which gives Sylvester McCoy as a cast choice for The Hobbit.
Laying aside the fact that I'm not a Doctor Who fan and I don't think I've heard of him before, theonering.net (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/08/28/38114-sylvester-mccoy-up-for-radagast-the-brown/) says he could be up for the part of Radagast. Perhaps he's going to harbour Bilbo and the Dwarves at Rhosgobel so they can leave out Beorn entirely.

I've MET Sylvester McCoy and he spotted my One Ring necklace. He's clearly a fan! ;) I hope to Rassilon's beard that this is true! Radagast in a pork pie hat?!

http://i35.tinypic.com/2vwvedw.png

[Galadriel]

Morsul, my views of PJ's movies is mixed. The only one I really
can rewatch entirely is FoTR (the other two have individual
extremely inrritaing bits (the worst being Faramir's and
Denethor's movie characters presentation, overusing the green slime,
and Gandalf violating all precepts by physically assaulting Denethor
(wow, a maiar can push around a man!). But most of the casting was
spot on, some characters were actually improved (Boromir and
Arwen) and the cinematography and most of the cgi was spectacular.

The worry (and hope) is whether del Toro can and will rein in some
of PJ and friends excesses while keeping their positives.

Now there's a thought:
Guillermo del Toro: Part IV: A New Hope

Ahem. Sorry, but according to me, Arwen was hyped, not improved. My views, like yours, are mixed. The CGI and other visual effects, not to mention the costumes, were brilliant. But Jackson absolutely killed the characterization. Merry and Pippin? Gimli? FARAMIR?? Even Frodo! Heck, I can't think of a character these guys did not pick apart.

Sure, it's a cool movie, but it is NOT Lord of the Rings.

[Galadriel]

On the subject of casting elves, who do you all think should play Thranduil? Personally I like Jamie Campbell Bower, however, that might be a biased view since I also consider him the only thing that made watching New Moon fun besides the scene at the beginning where Jasper nearly killed Bella.

Jamie Bower? O.o That guy's a bit young...I don't think he can manage Thranduil...

[LadyBrooke]

Jamie Bower? O.o That guy's a bit young...I don't think he can manage Thranduil...

Perhaps but all of the actors I think could have done a good job as Thranduil are (at least to me) too old to play the him. And Bower, at least, has proven that he can at least act well as a Vampire King (much better in my opinion then any of the other vampires). I think I'll reserve judgment on him until after I see him in Deathly Hallows and perhaps as King Arthur.

I'm open to any suggestions of who others think would be a good Thranduil. I don't see many movies unless I'm dragged to them by friends (hence my knowledge of Bower).

[Rumil]

According to the news-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11404484

PJ is calling for short-statured New Zealanders

[Galadriel]

Perhaps but all of the actors I think could have done a good job as Thranduil are (at least to me) too old to play the him. And Bower, at least, has proven that he can at least act well as a Vampire King (much better in my opinion then any of the other vampires). I think I'll reserve judgment on him until after I see him in Deathly Hallows and perhaps as King Arthur.

I'm open to any suggestions of who others think would be a good Thranduil. I don't see many movies unless I'm dragged to them by friends (hence my knowledge of Bower).

Perhaps he can act, but he reminds me too much of a vampire. I always imagined Thranduil with a wider sort of face, tall with broader shoulders than his son etc.

[LadyBrooke]

Perhaps he can act, but he reminds me too much of a vampire. I always imagined Thranduil with a wider sort of face, tall with broader shoulders than his son etc.

I always imagined the Moriquendi to be very thin, and slightly build almost delicate looking. The Noldor on the other hand were always broad shouldered. There were exceptions but Thranduil was always slightly built in my imagination, and around 6'2 or 6'3.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The New York Times reports TH movie deal is
just about done.
Unfortunately, PJ appears to be the producer and unfortunately
it's also to be in 3D.:(

P.S. I've only seen one 3d movie recently (Avatar), and found the new
glasses as annoying as ever, virtually got a headache after a while.

[Galadriel]

Looks like The Hobbit will start off in February 2011. Here's the link, though Morthoron has already put up a new thread.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/the-hobbit-movie-gets-the-green-light/story-e6frf7k6-1225939513402

[Mithalwen]

But they still haven't cast the leading character if the item on Martin Freeman in yesterday's Telegraph is any indication
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/8064838/Martin-Freeman-on-Sherlock-Holmes-Hollywood-and-turning-down-The-Hobbit.html

[Aganzir]

I've been talking about this with Downers on Facebook, but let's also state it here: David Bowie has to play Thranduil. That would be way awesome.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I've been talking about this with Downers on Facebook, but let's also state it here: David Bowie has to play Thranduil. That would be way awesome.

It's a god-awful small affair
To the dwarf with the mousy hair
But the dragon yelling "No"
And Gandalf has told them to go
But his gold is nowhere to be seen
Now he walks through a sunken dream
To the elves with the clearest view
And he's locked in the silver cell
But the trial is a saddening bore
'Cause he's lived it ten times or more
He could spit in the eyes of fools
As they ask him to focus on

Wood elves fighting in the dance hall
Oh man! Look at those Dale-men go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the Bow-man
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man! Wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best selling show
Is there life in Moria?

Yeah, sorry, that could have been better...

[narfforc]

Awesome Hooky.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Further rumours on McCoy Radagast...

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2010/10/20/39328-spy-report-sylvester-mccoy-talks-role-as-radagast/

Take it as you will. But I plan on seeing McCoy at a convention some time soon and will ask him myself. We may get a Barrow Downs exclusive! :D

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Jackson and Boyens in Bag End giving an interview expressing their frustration over the delays to the Hobbit...

http://www.3news.co.nz/The-Hobbit-Jackson-and-the-actors-speak-out/tabid/367/articleID/182467/Default.aspx

Can I just say how continuously astonished by how thin PJ has gotten! :eek:
Still an impressive beard, mind. :)

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Turns out McKellen is dropping out...

http://the-hobbitmovie.com/ian-mckellen-not-gandalf-hobbit/

Personally, I hope this means we get to see Richard Willson as Gandalf. "Wargs? I DON'T BELIEVE IT!"
..
Yes, anyway...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Any word of the Voice of Smaug?

How about Sean Connery or Mike Myers?

[Mister Underhill]

Hookbill, your tabloid instincts are as strong as ever! ;) That linked article doesn't say that McKellan is out, only that he hasn't yet signed. I'd be very surprised if they don't reach an agreement.

Regarding the voice of Smaug, the latest items I've read say Bill Nighy is the leading contender. Connery has been retired for some time, although, "never say never". Mike Myers is a joke, right?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Curious info on ToRN:

As early as August, McCoy started hinting that he had been been cast in a role that was not Bilbo. However earlier this week it started leaking in earnest (from McCoy himself), that he had been cast as Radagast. Confirming the news yesterday at Armageddon adds one more piece to the casting puzzle and confirms that Radagast the Brown, contemporary of Gandalf and Saruman and lover of nature and animals, will indeed be part of “The Hobbit” movies.

I suppose another PJ "improvement." Seems odd, since Sylvester McCoy could have had
a bigger, better role---even Bilbo.

Btw, I thought he was the third best Doctor (after Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker).

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Third hand report, but the best I can do...

My younger brother's school hosted Sir Ian last night. He was doing a talk about homophobia and fighting prejudice. During the question and answer session he was asked about playing Gandalf. He mentioned that he will be "flying back to New Zealand pretty soon" to play him again.
I'd like to assume he's referring to The Hobbit and not his own production of 'The Adventures of Gandalf and Alien', hitting cinemas some time next year. ;)

[Mister Underhill]

TheOneRing.Net is reporting (http://movies.ign.com/articles/113/1137271p1.html) that McKellan recently updated his website to include the role of Gandalf in The Hobbit (http://www.mckellen.com/cinema/index1.htm), so it's looking more and more like they've reached a deal. I expect an official announcement any time now.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

More McCoy Hobbit casting speculations...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11820379

He's decided to keep quiet now, it seems. :rolleyes:

[Andsigil]

And then, just as progress is about to be made, political correctness rears its head:

You're too dark to be a Hobbit: Race row after British-Asian woman claims she was discriminated against on set (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334147/The-Hobbit-race-row-British-woman-claims-wasnt-white-film.html)

[Bêthberry]

And then, just as progress is about to be made, political correctness rears its head:

You're too dark to be a Hobbit: Race row after British-Asian woman claims she was discriminated against on set (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334147/The-Hobbit-race-row-British-woman-claims-wasnt-white-film.html)

davem's started a thread about that, Andsigil: can o' worms (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=643805#post643805). :)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

About Sylvester McCoy as Radagast (in The One Ring).

This reporter’s amateur take? The reason Sylvester has not been officially announced has more to do with adapting The Hobbit for screen and storytelling liberties, than something contract related…but I could be wrong! Afterall, we do already know that Radagast plays no major role in The Hobbit, but his role in the films is rumored to be significant.

I thought the casting odd since in neither
TH or LoTR is Radagast a major character. It's nice he's in it. but I'd
rather he had a role from the book then (apparently) more PJ
meddling in plot and character manipulation.

[Mister Underhill]

There's a spate of Hobbit casting announcements, including the return of Cate Blanchett as Galadriel and actors for Balin, Beorn, and Drogo Baggins (!). Of course it's no surprise to anyone that we'll be delving into off-screen action involving the White Council, but as far as I can remember this is the first indication we've had that we'll be getting at least a glimpse of Baggins family history too.

http://www.deadline.com/2010/12/cate-blanchett-back-to-middle-earth-for-the-hobbit/

McKellen and Serkis are still not confirmed. Cue *raised eyebrow*.

[Inziladun]

There's a spate of Hobbit casting announcements, including the return of Cate Blanchett as Galadriel and actors for Balin, Beorn, and Drogo Baggins (!). Of course it's no surprise to anyone that we'll be delving into off-screen action involving the White Council, but as far as I can remember this is the first indication we've had that we'll be getting at least a glimpse of Baggins family history too.

Hmm. Will we get to see Primula push Drogo in the Brandywine? :rolleyes:

[Khazad-dûm]

Is it just me, or is the guy they picked to play Thorin Oakenshield WAY too young for they part?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hmm. Will we get to see Primula push Drogo in the Brandywine?

Indeed. Some even say that Drogo reached out
and drug her down after him. :eek:

[skip spence]

Apparently Time Warner/New Line has made some new cast announcements:


Cate Blanchett will reprise her role from Lord of The Rings trilogy as Galadriel, the Lady of Lothlorien.

Ken Stott (Charlie Wilson's War) will play the Dwarf Lord Balin

Sylvester McCoy (Doctor Who) will play the wizard Radagast the Brown

Well-known Swedish actor, Mikael Persbrandt (Everlasting Moments) will play the shape-shifter Beorn.

British actor Ryan Gage (Outlaw) will play Drogo Baggins, with New Zealand actors Jed Brophy (Lord of The Rings trilogy, District 9) playing the role of the dwarf Nori, and William Kircher (Legend of the Seeker) rounding out the company of Thorin Oakensheild in role of the dwarf Bifur.

The announcement was made jointly today by Toby Emmerich, President and Chief Operating Officer, New Line Cinema, Alan Horn, President and Chief Operating Officer, Warner Bros. and Steve Cooper, co-Chief Executive Officer of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc.


http://geektyrant.com/news/2010/12/7/the-hobbit-casts-cate-blanchett-ken-stott-sylvester-mccoy-an.html

[Tuor in Gondolin]

(Deadline Breaking News)

After New Line Cinema announced Cate Blanchett's return to Middle Earth for 'The Hobbit,' I'm told that Orlando Bloom will likely be the next original cast member set for an encore. He's near a deal to return as Elven archer Legolas. And it's for more than a cameo, I'm told. I'd have expected them to first set Ian McKellen (Gandalf), Andy Serkis (Gollum) or Hugo Weaving (Elrond), whose characters figured in the book. But those talks have been arduous and aren't completed yet.


Much as I like Sylvester McCoy it seems like it's a typical PJ and Boyens
"creative" move to expand the character.

And can anyone else imagine Leggy leading waves of elves down the
sides of Erebor on skateboards to attack the goblins?

Still, Agent Elrond should be better cast to lead the White Council then in the movie FotR.

And personally, I still think it would be less of a distortion then other PJ moves
to age Aragorn about 10 years and have him with a tryst (quite chaste :) ) with Arwen
and participating in the attack on Dol Guldur.

[Mister Underhill]

I decided to merge skip's thread in with this one since Hobbit threads on similar subjects are starting to proliferate and this thread already had some discussion of recent casting news.

...and on the news of the return of Legolas in a role that's "more than just a cameo" -- *brrr*.

[Morthoron]

And so, a simple but well-told linear quasi-epic comedy is buried in indigestible fluff. Rather like a cat vomiting tinselly hairballs on Christmas Eve.

[Mänwe]

Is it just me, or is the guy they picked to play Thorin Oakenshield WAY too young for they part?

You are not, I felt the same upon the announcement for while I have no doubt that costume and makeup will transform him into Thorin, his style just doesn't say 'stern, gravelly dwarf', to me it says 'suave softly spoken regal spy who married Vicar of Dibley'.

[Mithalwen]

You are not, I felt the same upon the announcement for while I have no doubt that costume and makeup will transform him into Thorin, his style just doesn't say 'stern, gravelly dwarf', to me it says 'suave softly spoken regal spy who married Vicar of Dibley'.

Did you see him in "North and South"? He was a bit grim and stern in that ..and he is a real actor rather than a film star and loves the books so it could be worse...

[doug*platypus]

This surprised me at first...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/4525775/Elijah-Wood-signed-on-for-Hobbit

But then reading the explanation as to how and why made me think that despite it's being outrageously non-canonical, it may not be too bad.

[Mänwe]

Did you see him in "North and South"? He was a bit grim and stern in that ..and he is a real actor rather than a film star and loves the books so it could be worse...

I haven't no. Heh, not giving him much credit am I. You are right, it could be worse.

This surprised me at first...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/4525775/Elijah-Wood-signed-on-for-Hobbit

But then reading the explanation as to how and why made me think that despite it's being outrageously non-canonical, it may not be too bad.

Mhm you'd have to be pretty bitter to go on a rant about that.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Regarding Andy Serkis, I'd like to think PJ would have enough
directorial self-control to limit him to the riddle scene, and then
a brief appearance of him emerging from the mountains at
the end of Part II...but I have my doubts.

[Mithalwen]

Mhm you'd have to be pretty bitter to go on a rant about that.

Am I allowed to be cynical and suggest that if they need to pad it out with artificially contrived scenes involving LOTR characters the story of the Hobbit could really have been told satisfactorily in one film and the division in to two is pot boiling? Either that or they fear that the main cast isn't sufficiently "box office" without some big Hollywood names...

[narfforc]

Indeed. Some even say that Drogo reached out
and drug her down after him. :eek:

It was an insurance scam, Drogo tied a brick around her leg, then he slipped and as he fell the brick smashed through the bottom of the boat....... it was then that Drogo realised he couldn't swim................. well that's what I heard, Peter Jackson told me so.

[LadyBrooke]

There are a couple of things currently worring me about this movie:

A.) Who in the world is Itaril and why is she currently top billed on IMDB? Is she going to be the token female character that movie seem to have to have these days? Apparently she's part of the King's guard and if she turns into a love interest for Legolas I am going to walk out of the Theater.:mad:

B.) Who is playing Bard? So far the answer is nobody even though filming starts next month.

C.) I'm not so sure about David Tennant as Thranduil. It just doesn't seem right to me.

[Mithalwen]

Itaril is a variant of Idril - referencing her may be a sop to the purists... :S
Bard is an important role but there is masses you can do without him. While his scenes are very important they aren't numerous.

[narfforc]

There are a couple of things currently worring me about this movie:

A.) Who in the world is Itaril and why is she currently top billed on IMDB? Is she going to be the token female character that movie seem to have to have these days? Apparently she's part of the King's guard and if she turns into a love interest for Legolas I am going to walk out of the Theater.:mad:

I think I agree with you on that one, however one only needs to read Lurtz for Itaril, it is Jackson and Bowens ego that they can somehow make Tolkiens story better, and like I have always said 'It's not what they leave out, it's what they put in that annoys the hell out of me'. Why invent something that is not there, when there is plenty there in the first place. I have many misgivings over these films, if Bard has not been cast... it is not beyond imagining that they will fuse the character to that of Beorn (I hope I'm wrong), their excuse ...... the public will be confused because of the similarity of the names. We suddenley have The Hobbit There or Thereabouts and The Quest of Errorbore released by OneWrong. com. I really do hope I'm wrong, I watched all the LOtR's Films at the cinema and for the most part enjoyed them, however with each one they took more and more liberties. I have three copies of each film, and I still watch them........................ I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they keep faith with the story Tolkien wrote and not what they think the public should watch.

[Mithalwen]

http://thecelebritycafe.com/feature/dean-ogorman-completes-cast-hobbit-05-01-2011

One dwarf down already and no sign of Bard. :( Loved "Pushing Daisies" but still can't see Lee PAce as the elven king.. and weirdly he is younger than Orli. Depressingly there was an interview with Saucer Ronan inyesterday's MoS magazine that seems to confirm that it is a done deal. Hey ho - still time for it to be left on the cutting room floor like David Morrissey's in "Girl with a pearl earring".

[Galadriel55]

What? They don't have an Elrond? Blasphemy!

[Mithalwen]

Oh Lovely Hugo is returning ..I thought that was in the article... must havebeen another.

[Oddwen]

I thought we had Stuart Townsend as Bard.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't that TORN's April Fool? I might have to check with Herald of Mandos though.:p

[Oddwen]

Wasn't that TORN's April Fool? I might have to check with Herald of Mandos though.:p

Ah, they got me then. For a month. Drat it all. :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

I shouldn't fret - it is plausible. PJ has been on a "jobs for the boys" programme bringing back the old guard. And he might feel it was some compensation for Aragorn not working out. Wouldn't be disastrous casting even if not my first choice. But a million times rather have him than the bug eyed Mary Sue.

[Mithalwen]

Martin Freeman let slip backstage at the Bafta's (where he won best supporting actor for his role as John Watson) that his Sherlock co star, Benedict Cumberbatch has a role in The Hobbit.

Some theories have him as Voice of Smaug but he is lanky enough to play an elf ( - Galion or the Gaoler perhaps? Presuambly not Itaril....! Can't see him as Bard and since Stephen Fry (whose acting gets worse with time - wonderful as Jeeves dreadful in Gosford Park) is Master of Lake Town, I am struggling to think of many other options.. .

[Anguirel]

Stephen Fry? That's it these people are out to poison my (specific) existence

The only man on earth who can make Evelyn Waugh cosy (not a compliment)

[Mithalwen]

Ang dear, I have felt that for some time - let alone the fact that if it is in 3D I wouldn't actually be able to watch it.... I didn't see Bright Young Things..

[oddkins]

Along with Stephen Fry's casting announcement was the mention of Conan Stevens, (currently playing Gregor Clegane - or “The Mountain that Rides,” - in HBO’s “Game of Thrones,” series) to play the part of "an orc called Azog."

This obviously implies that either we will be seeing more background hstory of the Dwarf/Orc wars, more Moria and possibly the Battle of Azanulbizar....or not! Wouldn't put it past the scriptwriters to make the Great Goblin Azog...:rolleyes:

[Anguirel]

It's interesting and revealing how this casting cycle has gone

The Lord of the Rings films - while I would say only the first two are particularly personally enjoyable for me, and they not as much as they might have been - were, in retrospect, quite respectable; visually impressive, quite well acted, script that avoided bathos more than it didn't and quoted quite a lot of Tolk, etc. And look at their cast. They were not a lattice of famous names arranged like a meta-joke. Most of them are famous now, but that's different

Because of this quite originally and insightfully cast series of films' very success, though, the Hobbit is proving exactly the opposite; its cast seems to read like one of those hilarious dream teams created by someone like me on a site like this - a collection of colossally famous, shoehorned in half remembered dramatic walking cliches; the product of a bloke somewhere working on autopilot, not an artist looking for talent

Am beginning to wonder if the magnitude of The Hobbit's disastrousness is actually a conspiracy to shore up the lasting reputation of the trilogy...

I can't for instance see it being anything like as good as Game of Thrones mentioned just above - and given their respective literary starting points that's quite shocking. Note Game of Thrones is also mostly relatively new blood in its casting

[Kuruharan]

Stephen Fry (whose acting gets worse with time

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this. :eek:

if it is in 3D

That's the fad right now and it allows them to charge more money to pad their box office results, so...

I am in complete agreement with Ang that The Hobbit(s) is seeming more and more like somebody's out of control ego project that is going to be utterly ghastly in every way.

While I probably still will go see it when it comes out, I will probably go only looking forward to the prospect of deriding it and ripping it to shreds at every opportunity.

I am in complete disagreement with Ang regarding the literary starting points as I think the Song of Ice and Fire series is quite good and well-written. I am looking forward to the next book in the series coming out later this year. So there! :p

[Anguirel]

I am in complete disagreement with And regarding the literary starting points as I think the Song of Ice and Fire series is quite good and well-written. I am looking forward to the next book in the series coming out later this year. So there! :p

I don't feel strongly enough about my catty point above to defend it against such a luminary (cf werewolf I) as you Kuru; I haven't read the Martin books, I merely lazily doubt that they're in Tolkien's league/feel Anglo prejudice. And I must say the TV series has given me an enormous amount of enjoyment (maybe so much more than the LOTR films because I don't have the constant sense of a beloved artefact being messed with?) so I will happily pay fealty

[Mithalwen]

That's the fad right now and it allows them to charge more money to pad their box office results, so...



Tough luck on astigmatics who will be feeling queasy long before the hamming starts

[Kuruharan]

luminary (cf werewolf I)

I hope I luminate for more than that as that was one week in a summer a long time ago now.

I merely lazily doubt that they're in Tolkien's league/feel Anglo prejudice. And I must say the TV series has given me an enormous amount of enjoyment (maybe so much more than the LOTR films because I don't have the constant sense of a beloved artefact being messed with?) so I will happily pay fealty

I do heartily endorse reading the books. I've not been able to see the series yet, although I intend to when I can, but its my understanding that in the main it follows the book...as faithfully as can be expected from a television version of a book (although there are the inevitable strange bits...like the absurd armor of the Westermen...but I digress).

The books themselves are quite good. They are not like Tolkien and they are certainly not for younger readers but they are well written and an enjoyable read. They do look quite thick and intimidating, I grant, but one flies through reading them much faster than would be supposed.

I also apologize for my hilarious typo in your name earlier. I would say that my brain was on autopilot this morning...but given the execrable nature of that typo it looks more like I was just asleep at the wheel.

Tough luck on astigmatics who will be feeling queasy long before the hamming starts

And tough luck for all of us who will get headaches from the ill-fitting things. If ever there was a movie trend I wish would go away it is this sudden intoxication with 3-D they all seem to have come down with.

[Mithalwen]

It was a complete nightmare trying to find something age appropriate and astigmatic friendly to take godson too last half term. Given that there was a near simultaeneous 3d showing of the same film, and our screenwas packed I think there are a good number of people who have problems with it.

Oh an Kuru dear you are always a source of light :D

[Morthoron]

No matter what anyway says, there is an inherent cost to add 3-D to a film, and because of this added cost, filmmakers can no longer look at filming a scene in relation to the best impact for the actors, but rather, the greatest 3-D impact. Therefore, you get more single shots of arrows whistling through air or axes flying end over end, and less of the individual actors (and their acting).

I would prefer if the technology could just go away.

[Inziladun]

No matter what anyway says, there is an inherent cost to add 3-D to a film, and because of this added cost, filmmakers can no longer look at filming a scene in relation to the best impact for the actors, but rather, the greatest 3-D impact. Therefore, you get more single shots of arrows whistling through air or axes flying end over end, and less of the individual actors (and their acting).

I would prefer if the technology could just go away.

I think overall that any emphasis on actual acting has given way to considerations of the visuals. After all, I daresay the majority of moviegoers these days don't want anything really thought-provoking or meaningful, as much as pretty explosions and emotional payoffs one can see coming a mile away. Or at least that's the perception of many movie makers. The addition of 3-D only exacerbates the problem, as you say. I see the 3-D thing as a gimmick, and one that will only serve to cheapen The Hobbit in general and make it look like just another 'blockbuster'.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Fangirl alert: From TheOneRing.net:

Peter Confirms Orlando Bloom joining ‘The Hobbit’

May 27th, 2011 by newsfrombree
Direct from Peter Jackson…


Ten years ago, Orlando Bloom created an iconic character with his portrayal of Legolas. I’m excited to announce today that we’ll be revisiting Middle Earth with him once more. I’m thrilled to be working with Orlando again. Funny thing is, I look older—and he doesn’t! I guess that’s why he makes such a wonderful elf.


So does he date a Laketown girl or an elf for romantic interests? :rolleyes:

[Inziladun]

So does he date a Laketown girl or an elf for romantic interests? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't put it past them to have Legolas leaping from the pinnacle of Erebor onto Smaug's back, sticking a dagger in his eye, and sliding down his tail to land safely on the ground. Then he'll quip "Even the biggest worms have their gummy parts". ;)

[Anguirel]

Ten years ago, Orlando Bloom created an iconic character with his portrayal of Legolas.

well that's funny isn't it, you do just learn something new every day don't you, I mean I thought Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Raaaaaaarhrkghchrghdeath.

[Galadriel55]

Ten years ago, Orlando Bloom created an iconic character with his portrayal of Legolas.

well that's funny isn't it, you do just learn something new every day don't you, I mean I thought Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Raaaaaaarhrkghchrghdeath.

Do you really think that Orlegolando Bloomleaf is the proper Legolas? He was quite a character on his own, without any help from the Professor, except for the name. :p

What the Leggy-bopper's quote should have said is that Bloom took Legolas, took him apart, and built his own Lego with the pieces. ;)

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

With his elvish gift of foresight, Legolas tells the Dwarf Gloin, "Father of Gimli, you might not believe this, but in the sequel to this tale I fall in love with your son."

[Morthoron]

Ten years ago, Orlando Bloom created an iconic character with his portrayal of Legolas.
well that's funny isn't it, you do just learn something new every day don't you, I mean I thought Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Raaaaaaarhrkghchrghdeath.

Well, you have to admit it was quite amazing the amount of pathos they got from a mannequin. There was one part where I swear it almost cried real tears!

[Galadriel55]

Well, you have to admit it was quite amazing the amount of pathos they got from a mannequin. There was one part where I swear it almost cried real tears!

Those tears were just water. They forgot to add salt.

:p

[Thinlómien]

No actor for Bard and Orlando Bloom returning... does anybody else smell a conspiracy? :eek:

[Morthoron]

No actor for Bard and Orlando Bloom returning... does anybody else smell a conspiracy? :eek:

I wasn't sure about a conspiracy until I heard the title of the new movie: Hobbits of the Caribbean.

[Mithalwen]

Well, you have to admit it was quite amazing the amount of pathos they got from a mannequin. There was one part where I swear it almost cried real tears!

I had a "Tiny tears" doll that did that when I was child... it wasn't high tech.

Ang - I fully expect either Dame Helen, Dame Maggie or Dame Judi to be cast as Lobelia..

[Galadriel55]

No actor for Bard and Orlando Bloom returning... does anybody else smell a conspiracy? :eek:

Well, as was already mentioned earlier (I believe) on this thread, Bard only appears in the second halfof the story. And who will watch a movie without Orlando Bloom in it? :eek:

This is really sad.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Judi Dench as Lobelia
Daniel Craig as Lotho. :p

Of course, neither are in The Hobbit but will that
stop PJ? Not hardly.

[blantyr]

Yahoo reports "The Hobbit" films get titles and release dates (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110531/film_nm/us_hobbit).

The first of the two films, which are currently being filmed back-to-back in New Zealand, "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey," arrives in theaters on December 14, 2012.

The sequel, opening December 13, 2013, will be known as "The Hobbit: There and Back Again." Both will be released through Warner Bros...

The sprawling cast includes a number of other "Rings" veterans: Ian McKellen as Gandalf the Grey; Cate Blanchett as Galadriel; Orlando Bloom as Legolas; Christopher Lee as Saruman; Hugo Weaving as Elrond; Elijah Wood as Frodo; and Andy Serkis as Gollum.

Not quite sure they are precisely following the canon plot... :Merisu:

[Galadriel55]

Not quite sure they are precisely following the canon plot... :Merisu:

They aren't.

It's possible that they want to add a scene of the White Counsil banishing the Necromancer, which would explain Galadriel and Saruman. And nothing related to the LOTR movies can do without LegoBloom :rolleyes:. But Frodo?

I'm kind of afraid to watch the movie...

[Nerwen]

Judi Dench as Lobelia
Daniel Craig as Lotho. :p

Of course, neither are in The Hobbit but will that
stop PJ? Not hardly.
Ye-es... but having a Sackville-Baggins or two appear at the beginning and/or end would actually be okay, particularly if they keep the original ending– it's just the "show, don't tell" principle at work. So if they're going to do that (I haven't heard anything about it, though) it really wouldn't bother me. Similarly, you could legitimately show the White Council bit, at least briefly.

It's the rest of it– what they're trying to make, it seems, is not so much The Hobbit as it is Lord of the Rings: Part 0. Perhaps this was inevitable, after the success of the trilogy, but it's a pretty tall order when the book they're trying to adapt is only quite loosely connected to its sequel.

[Galadriel55]

It's the rest of it– what they're trying to make, it seems, is not so much The Hobbit as it is Lord of the Rings: Part 0. Perhaps this was inevitable, after the success of the trilogy, but it's a pretty tall order when the book they're trying to adapt is only quite loosely connected to its sequel.

At least they didn't try filming The Sil! :eek:

[Kuruharan]

but it's a pretty tall order when the book they're trying to adapt is only quite loosely connected to its sequel.

I fear that will be the excuse we will hear over and over again to justify all the changes they make to the story.

[Inziladun]

but it's a pretty tall order when the book they're trying to adapt is only quite loosely connected to its sequel.

I fear that will be the excuse we will hear over and over again to justify all the changes they make to the story.

You'd think the Ring would be rather an unmistakable connection between the stories. At least, it seems to be adequate for readers of the books. :rolleyes:

[Aiwendil]

Elijah Wood as Frodo

!

Considering that they already made Frodo much younger in LotR, how could they possibly put him (as an adult, no less - unless they have the medical technology to make Wood rapidly age backwards) in The Hobbit? Wouldn't that make Bilbo's adventure happen just a few years before LotR?

White Council nonsense I was expecting, but putting Frodo in it doesn't seem to make sense even in Peter Jackson Land.

[Thinlómien]

Galadriel, Aiwendil - they plan to have Frodo as the narrator, so it's not worse than that. :)

[Mithalwen]

Judi Dench as Lobelia
Daniel Craig as Lotho. :p

Of course, neither are in The Hobbit but will that
stop PJ? Not hardly.

Having located my copy of the Hobbit - The Sackville Bagginses are measuring the rooms to see if their furniture will fit at the end... so they are there albeit for a sentence or two...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Quite true about the S-B's at the end of The Hobbit.
But frankly, Judi Dench would make a more believable
Lobelia then the over the top harridan in the FotR movie
extended dvd.
And I like the idea of her bossing around Daniel Craig as her
son (after all, he probably has a license to foreclose on homes).

Bilbo finds a hobbit measuring his rooms.
"What are you doing? Who are you?"
Sackville-Baggins, LOTHO Sackville-Baggins!"
(cue scary music)
---Well, maybe not.---

[Mithalwen]

Bilbo finds a hobbit measuring his rooms.
"What are you doing? Who are you?"
Sackville-Baggins, LOTHO Sackville-Baggins!"
(cue scary music)
---Well, maybe not.---

The nickname Lotho Pimple might have to go then... that is more Bond villain

[Aiwendil]

they plan to have Frodo as the narrator, so it's not worse than that.

Ah, that makes sense. I will revert to my previous, slightly less inflated, level of skepticism about the films.

[Kuruharan]

You'd think the Ring would be rather an unmistakable connection between the stories. At least, it seems to be adequate for readers of the books. :rolleyes:

There's a ring? :eek:

I'm just remembering back to the days of Prince Caspian where literally the excuse for trashing the book was "the book doesn't make a very good film."

So if The Hobbit doesn't make a very good film...lets make it into two films and make it up as we go along.

[Inziladun]

So if The Hobbit doesn't make a very good film...lets make it into two films and make it up as we go along.

Doing that with LOTR and three films seems to have paid off well for PJ. :rolleyes:

If that's indeed his model, I think we'll be getting off lucky not to see:

1. Bilbo falling in love with a female eagle
2. Bilbo getting captured by Beorn, who tries to take him and the Ring to Smaug
3. Armies of Gondor and Rohan heroically saving the day at the Battle of Five Armies
and
4. Galadriel mysteriously appearing in Mirkwood to help Bilbo, telling him "Even the smallest person can ....well, you know the rest." ;)

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

There's a ring? :eek:

So if The Hobbit doesn't make a very good film...lets make it into two films and make it up as we go along.

The Hobbit would make a decent enough film. It just wouldn't make as much money as TWO Hobbit films strung out over two successive years.

[Kuruharan]

1. Bilbo falling in love with a female eagle

Oooo...kinky! ;)

2. Bilbo getting captured by Beorn, who tries to take him and the Ring to Smaug

I'm expecting to see this.

3. Armies of Gondor and Rohan heroically saving the day at the Battle of Five Armies

I am *definitely* expecting to see this...led by Faramir and Eowyn (respectively).

4. Galadriel mysteriously appearing in Mirkwood to help Bilbo, telling him "Even the smallest person can ....well, you know the rest." ;)

In the interest of gender equality I think Galadriel will have to join Thorin and Company along with Gwaihirina and whatsherfacewhosenamestartswithanI. I mean, they cut all those dwarves which creates a lot of space for "better" characters to take their place.

The Hobbit would make a decent enough film. It just wouldn't make as much money as TWO Hobbit films strung out over two successive years.

I'm pretty sure from their general attitude the brilliant minds behind this production don't think The Hobbit makes a very good movie.

[Galadriel55]

I am *definitely* expecting to see this...led by Faramir and Eowyn (respectively).

No, by Eomer, who leads the troops against Theoden's will for no reason whatsoever, just to discover that he is needed on the Battlefield.

In the interest of gender equality I think Galadriel will have to join Thorin and Company along with Gwaihirina and whatsherfacewhosenamestartswithanI. I mean, they cut all those dwarves which creates a lot of space for "better" characters to take their place.

Itaril?



I want to add to the list:

5. Thorin falling in love with Mrs. Smaug
6. Bilbo wielding the Arkenstone against the Spider of Mirkwood
7. Itaril teaching Legolas all the tricks he'll show in LOTR
8. An army of wizards flying on Eagles
9. Ents of Mirkwood
10. A Nazgul leading the Orcs in battle.

[Galadriel55]

The Hobbit would make a decent enough film. It just wouldn't make as much money as TWO Hobbit films strung out over two successive years.

Sad but true. As much as any film of a Tolkien book made by PJ could be decent.

[Kuruharan]

No, by Eomer, who leads the troops against Theoden's will for no reason whatsoever, just to discover that he is needed on the Battlefield.

Gah!!! Non-female character...rejected.



Itaril?

Yes, that's the face, but I will continue to refer to her as whatsherfacewhosenamestartswithanI.

5. Thorin falling in love with Mrs. Smaug
6. Bilbo wielding the Arkenstone against the Spider of Mirkwood
7. Itaril teaching Legolas all the tricks he'll show in LOTR
8. An army of wizards flying on Eagles
9. Ents of Mirkwood
10. A Nazgul leading the Orcs in battle.

These are all brilliant! I shall have them forwarded to the script department at once!

[Galadriel55]

Gah!!! Non-female character...rejected.

Then Faramir should be rejected too. Instead, his mother Finduilas should go.

OR, he should have a sister who dies in the Battle of 5 Armies...

:p

[Nerwen]

It wouldn't exactly blow my mind if #7 really does appear in it. And maybe #10 as well.

[Morthoron]

ROFL!!!!

I just got done arguing with some fanboy over at the OneRing.net forums, and what I stated mirrors much of what's been said here lately. Here's my take:

...But turning a story that has been beloved by children and adults since 1937 into some 3D fan-fiction parody that loses all its endearing charm would be the real tragedy.

I've already seen what PJ can do with a script, and I am not enamored in the least. The weakest points of the LotR movies were when he played fast and "loose", but when he stayed closer to the original plot, it was magic. Even when he gave dialogue to one character that was originally said by another, it was very gratifying, and at points very moving and elegiac.

No, I don't care to see Beorn enslaved by the lure of the One Ring and dragging Bilbo off to Dol Guldur, only to have a change of heart at the last minute.

No, I am uninterested in seeing an army of Rohirrim arrive at Erebor in the nick of time.

No, I don't wish to see a 15 minute sequence of Bard falling off a cliff and then french kissing his horse.

No, I don't want to hear Elrond whine that "Celebrian is dying".

No, I am against Itaril teaching Legolas to shield surf.

No, I don't want Bilbo to tell Balin to go home.

No, I don't want a maniacal Thranduil slobbering over a piece of chicken while making Bilbo sing.

And no, I don't want a wave of green scrubbing bubbles to take out Smaug at Laketown.

Am I in the minority? Perhaps. But there is nowhere else I'd rather be. Certainly not in the "majority" if that is where you reside. The Hobbit and LotR are two completely different books for two separate audiences. Make the movie ugly and violent enough, and you'll drive away the very audience it was written for.

Strip the story of its elegant simplicity and linear quality by adding a fan-fic rendition of the White Council (which Tolkien didn't even waste words on), and you eliminate the qualities of the book. Smaug and the greed Smaug engendered are the antagonists of the story, not the Necromancer. Throw in a bewildering array of nonessential characters and lose the heart of the tale.

[Kuruharan]

Then Faramir should be rejected too. Instead, his mother Finduilas should go.

OR, he should have a sister who dies in the Battle of 5 Armies...

:p

No, we have to have some beefcake in there to make the gurls happy.

Speaking of which...I have the perfect person in mind to play Bard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Lautner).

(Yes, I know I am evil.)

[Thinlómien]

No, we have to have some beefcake in there to make the gurls happy.

Speaking of which...I have the perfect person in mind to play Bard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Lautner).

(Yes, I know I am evil.)Aiee! Even though you warned us beforehand, that's just TOO BAD. :eek: I wanted to ask if he isn't too young though but then remembered that with PJ anything is possible... :rolleyes:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

So you're saying PJ will have the Laketown werewolves
battle the Smaug vampires as part of the Battle of
Seven Armies while Legolas tutors Bard on how to shoot
arrows as Leggy's laketown girlfriend is slain by Smaug?
Brilliant! That's a wrap.

[Kuruharan]

arrows as Leggy's laketown girlfriend is slain by Smaug?

I'm all for this bit of it at any rate!

[Mithalwen]

So you're saying PJ will have the Laketown werewolves
battle the Smaug vampires as part of the Battle of
Seven Armies while Legolas tutors Bard on how to shoot
arrows as Leggy's laketown girlfriend is slain by Smaug?
Brilliant! That's a wrap.

Surely you can fit a balrog or two in there? And more trolls..

And cameos for Stanley Tucci and Kate Witless.

[Galadriel55]

Surely you can fit a balrog or two in there?

It's kind of about dragons , but will that matter to PJ?

And more trolls..

So 3 isn't enough, even though they are about to eat 13 Dwarves and one hobbit alive? There has to be some troll in the Misty Mtns, otherwise the story isn't good. And Bibo will slip right under it's nose to get away from the place.

At least one thing is certain: there will be orcs, and not those green-slimy-long-eared-goblins-who-look-more-like-Dobeys.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vhahcmMPMRo/TZWOYLIpEgI/AAAAAAAAAAg/z_7ppYVPt_M/s1600/goblin.jpg

[Kuruharan]

It's kind of about dragons , but will that matter to PJ?

No.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vhahcmMPMRo/TZWOYLIpEgI/AAAAAAAAAAg/z_7ppYVPt_M/s1600/goblin.jpg

Ahhh...judging from the branches sprouting out of his head it is the reclusive tree-orc!! I haven't seen one in years! :D

[Galadriel55]

Ahhh...judging from the branches sprouting out of his head it is the reclusive tree-orc!!

That's where the Ents come in! They will be hoding a moot all the way through the Battle, and by the time they finish Thorin would be dead etc.

So many brilliant *cough cough* ideas! Just takes a little to get them flowing! :rolleyes:

[narfforc]

In the Battle of the Five Armies I expect to see the Beornings attack en masse in a type of Twilight Attack of the Were-bears (distant ancestors of The Care Bears). Or will they be a Swedish naturist colony run by Bjorn the Bare.....

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Those fiendish Swedish Naturalist allies Gandalf met galloping up from
Dol Guldur (now you know why he was distracted ;) ). They'll have
some Swedish naturalist babes distract the orcs while the dwarves swipe away
at the poor orcsees naughty bits! PJ's gonna have trouble getting a PG-13
rating in the U.S.

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

I really don't know what the two upcoming Hobbit films will contain other than one each of Peter Jackson's self-indulgent cameos. However otherwise perfect, these movies will contain at least these guaranteed and needless blemishes.

[Mithalwen]

Don't forget the cameos by the bug eyed moppets who are probably spotty and surly adolescents now...

[Morthoron]

I really don't know what the two upcoming Hobbit films will contain other than one each of Peter Jackson's self-indulgent cameos. However otherwise perfect, these movies will contain at least these guaranteed and needless blemishes.

He does love his explosions and immature bits of ghastliness, doesn't he? The fact is, other than LotR, PJ is a B-grade director of campy horror flicks. Which is why I was so disappointed when Del Toro got the hint early on and left the film, because his vision of fantasy is decidedly more elegant than the bombast of Jackson. Although Del Toro is too much of a gentleman to admit it, I am sure PJ's efforts to dumb down the plot (much like in LotR) was a deciding factor in Del Toro leaving.

[Nolwë_Namiel]

Del Toro must have been a real optimist if he thought PJ would actually allow him to "direct" The Hobbit. I have to confess it is my least favourite of Tolkien's writings .... my only real curiosity is how Smaug will be represented. I'm a bit of a dragon fanatic. ;)

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Strip the story of its elegant simplicity and linear quality by adding a fan-fic rendition of the White Council (which Tolkien didn't even waste words on), and you eliminate the qualities of the book. Smaug and the greed Smaug engendered are the antagonists of the story, not the Necromancer. Throw in a bewildering array of nonessential characters and lose the heart of the tale.

Leaving aside for the moment the subject of non-essential characters, Professor Tolkien himself elegantly summarized the essential story of The Hobbit with two Third Age calendar entries in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings:

2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II).

2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor.

In other words, little Bilbo Baggins found the Ring -- or the Ring found him. Then Bilbo returned with the Ring to the Shire -- or the Ring escaped from underneath the Misty Mountains. Everything else that happened in Middle-earth during that one year concerned the geopolitical machinations of Wizards vs Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer. As Gandalf said to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit:

"You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"

Yes, The Hobbit tells the linear tale of the "little fellow" and one could leave it that -- as the children's magic adventure narrative originally published in 1937. But Professor Tolkien did not leave it at that, and instead revisited and rewrote key parts of The Hobbit so that it would fit appropriately into the story of "the wide world" as well. Consequently, one finds references to both the Necromancer and his stronghold at Dol Guldur in the very first chapter of The Hobbit: "An Unexpected Party," and the final chapter, "The Last Stage." So, I don't think one can accurately maintain that Professor Tolkien "didn't even waste words" on the White Council, Dol Guldor, and the Necromancer, by which he understood the larger Manichean struggle between Good and Evil that backgrounds the charming story of Bilbo Baggins' atypical -- for a hobbit -- adventure.

The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings has a wealth of information dealing with Gandalf's strategy for using the Dwarves of the Iron Hills as a counterbalance to Sauron who might use Smaug the Dragon to possibly attack the Elves in Rivendell. Here, Gandalf's "chance meeting" between Gandalf and Thorin at Bree shows how Gandalf appeals to the Dwarves' notorious craving for vengeance as well as their greed for treasure. In this larger strategy, the Dragon Smaug figures only as a possible weapon that needs neutralizing in the North while the main struggle against Sauron takes place elsewhere. Bilbo and the Dwarves, therefore, have their parts to play, but the larger picture remains essentially hidden from their limited perspectives.

In short, Peter Jackson has a wealth of genuine Tolkien material to exploit if he wishes to do so. Everything will hinge on whether he brings Tolkien's world to life -- both microcosm and macrocosm -- or falls willing victim to hackneyed Hollywood cliches, latest-and-greatest computer graphics gimicks, and fanboy slaughter extravaganzas to give Orlando Bloom something to do in a story that doesn't need him.

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Just as a follow-up for those who may not have read Tolkien's background history of the Dwarves in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings, I've excerpted below that portion which explains the significance of Smaug the Dragon in Gandalf's larger geopolitical strategy vis-a-vis Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer. Not for nothing does the Wizard and a pack of wandering Dwarves show up unexpectedly at Bag End looking for the accomplished burglar rumored to live there:

But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time, Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there a while.

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?

It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him, and said: 'Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you.'

Gandalf looked at him with wonder. 'That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield,' he said. 'For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls.'

'Call them so, if you will,' said Thorin. 'They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. For they say that you are wise and know more than any other of what goes on in the world; and I have much on my mind and would be glad of your counsel.'

'I will come,' said Gandalf; 'for I guess that we share one trouble at least. The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thror.'

The story is told elsewhere of what came of that meeting: of the strange plan that Gandalf made for the help of Thorin, and how Thorin and his companions set out from the Shire on the quest of the Lonely Mountain that came to great ends unforeseen. Here only those things are recalled that directly concern Durin's folk.

The Dragon was slain by Bard of Esgaroth, but there was battle in Dale. For the Orcs came down upon Erebor as soon as they heard of the return of the Dwarves; and they were led by Bolg, son of that Azog whom Dáin had slew in his youth. In that first Battle of Dale, Thorin Oakenshield was mortally wounded; and he died and was laid in a tomb under the Mountain with the Arkenstone upon his breast. There also fell Fili and Kili, his sister-sons. But Dáin Ironfoot, his cousin, who came from the Iron Hills to his aid and was also his rightful heir, became then King Dáin II, and the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored, even as Gandalf had desired. Dáin proved a great and wise king, and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day.

In the late summer of that same year (2941) Gandalf had at last prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, and Sauron retreated and went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies. So it was that when the War came at last the main assault was turned southwards; yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the North, if King Dain and King Brand [grandson of Bard the Bowman] had not stood in his path. Even as Gandalf said afterwards to Frodo and Gimli, when they dwelt together for a time in Minas Tirith. Not long before news had come to Gondor of events far away.

'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; 'and now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield an axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.'

'Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valor of Durin's Folk. Think what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting as we say in Middle-earth.'

[Kuruharan]

In short, Peter Jackson has a wealth of genuine Tolkien material to exploit if he wishes to do so. Everything will hinge on whether he brings Tolkien's world to life -- both microcosm and macrocosm -- or falls willing victim to hackneyed Hollywood cliches, latest-and-greatest computer graphics gimicks, and fanboy slaughter extravaganzas to give Orlando Bloom something to do in a story that doesn't need him.

I know which one I'm betting my remote dwarven hold on...just the fact Orlando Bloom is there at all should tell one all one needs to know.

[Morthoron]

Leaving aside for the moment the subject of non-essential characters, Professor Tolkien himself elegantly summarized the essential story of The Hobbit with two Third Age calendar entries in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings....

In other words, little Bilbo Baggins found the Ring -- or the Ring found him. Then Bilbo returned with the Ring to the Shire -- or the Ring escaped from underneath the Misty Mountains. Everything else that happened in Middle-earth during that one year concerned the geopolitical machinations of Wizards vs Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer. As Gandalf said to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit...

Yes, The Hobbit tells the linear tale of the "little fellow" and one could leave it that -- as the children's magic adventure narrative originally published in 1937. But Professor Tolkien did not leave it at that, and instead revisited and rewrote key parts of The Hobbit so that it would fit appropriately into the story of "the wide world" as well....

In short, Peter Jackson has a wealth of genuine Tolkien material to exploit if he wishes to do so. Everything will hinge on whether he brings Tolkien's world to life -- both microcosm and macrocosm -- or falls willing victim to hackneyed Hollywood cliches, latest-and-greatest computer graphics gimicks, and fanboy slaughter extravaganzas to give Orlando Bloom something to do in a story that doesn't need him.

I was going to write a rather long, ultimately tedious, diatribe in response to your well-researched post, TMT, with circles and arrows and a paragraph description on the back of each illustration, but to paraphrase the good professor for my warped agenda, "Keep it simple, keep it safe." :D

When you state that Tolkien "revisited and rewrote key parts of The Hobbit so that it would fit appropriately into the story [LotR]", that is, of course, true. Here is an excellent site that does a side-by-side analysis of the actual emendations:

http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html

It is of note that the majority of edits deal solely with a single chapter, "Riddles in the Dark", and revolve around one character, Gollum. When Tolkien set about to rewrite The Hobbit in 1960, he eventually abandoned the project, as any wholesale revision would ultimately eliminate the humor and inherent enchanting nature of the story. Therefore, we have a few, short summarizations of other events that happened during Bilbo's adventure, and a chapter in Unfinished Tales ("The Quest of Erebor") which is under copyright by Christopher Tolkien and cannot be used in the film.

Therein lies my abhorrence for grafting the "White Council" sequences to The Hobbit. A skeletal summation of other events does not a canonical plot make, particularly when referring to the sub-par fan-fictionalizations of Peter Jackson. Based on The Marring of the Ring films, there is ample justification for my loathing this addition. Simply put, when Peter Jackson strayed from Tolkien's original intent and plot, the movies suffered. I could offer up a litany of such character assassinations, ****-poor dialogue and film sequences for special effect's sake, but that dead horse has been flogged beyond a bloody pulp and has been analyzed down to an equine cellular level.

Is there an opportunity to exploit brief summaries for larger aggrandizements? Certainly, the vampire has been invited into the room, and a word-wraith such as Jackson has evidently had this in mind all along. But it will be fan-fiction. And based on PJ's previous fan-fiction, he certainly will not be selected for a Middle-earth Fanfiction Award (MEFA).

You, yourself, have bemoaned the mere mention of that Xenarwenish character, Itaril. One can already picture the shield-surfing contest between her and Orlandolas. :rolleyes:

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Thank you for your lengthy reply, Morthorond. I did not find it at all tedious. And I fully appreciate your paranoia regarding Peter Jackson and his "Bad Taste" proclivities. As the old saying goes: "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that real people aren't out to get me!"

However, at the risk of seeming pedantic, I would like to reiterate my somewhat modest contention that film renditions of Tolkien's own references in the published texts do not necessarily constitute "fan fiction" as would, for awful example, the completely invented and ludicrous elf-chick security guard "Itaril" secretly in love with a young Elf lord while simultaneously kicking butt and taking names all over the place for no comprehensible reason. Again though, as concerns what Tolkien specifically wrote about the White Council and the Necromancer:

From The Hobbit, Chaper One: "An Unexpected Party":

"'I don't understand,' said Thorin, and Bilbo felt he would like to say the same. The explanation did not seem to explain.

'Your grandfather [Thror],' said the wizard slowly and grimly, 'gave the map to his son [Thrain] for safety before he went to the mines of Moria. Your father [Thrain] went away to try his luck with the map after your grandfather was killed; and lots of adventures of a most unpleasant sort he had, but he never got near the Mountain. How he got there I don’t know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer.'

'Whatever were you doing there?' asked Thorin with a shudder, and all the dwarves shivered.

'Never you mind. I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty and dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped. I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and key.'

'We have long ago paid the goblins of Moria,' said Thorin; 'we must give a thought to the Necromancer.'

'Don’t be absurd! He is an enemy quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together, if they could all be collected again from the four corners of the world. The one thing your father wished was for his son to read the map and use the key. The dragon and the Mountain are more than big enough tasks for you!'”

From The Hobbit, Chaper Nineteen: "The Last Stage":

"… but every now and again would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the story which he did not yet know came in.

It was in this way that he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a[B] great council of white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.

It seems to me from the textual evidence that Tolkien fully intended these references to matters above and beyond the immediate concerns of Bilbo and the dwarves, and if the upcoming Hobbit films make use of this material, they have defensible reasons for doing so without necessarily committing fan-fiction heresy. As for what Tolkien wrote about the changes that he made to Chapter Five, "Riddles in the Dark," I'll address those in another comment. Suffice it to say at this point that featuring Christopher Lee as Saruman -- hoodwinking Gandalf and the High Elves as to his ultimate allegiances and purposes -- does not constitute "fan fiction" in the slightest. Therefore, I have no up-front objections to the White Council and Necromancer having a suitable -- although subordinate -- place in support of Bilbo Baggins' excellent adventure.

Keeping things simple and safe: Christopher Lee -- Yes; Orlando Bloom -- No!

[Galadriel55]

Keeping things simple and safe: Christopher Lee -- Yes; Orlando Bloom -- No!

Itaril - double no!

I mean, Legolas was already born then, and he could have taken some part in the Battle of 5 Armies, even though he wasn't mentioned in TH (because he didn't exist as a character at that time yet). Orlando just takes out all the spirit out of that character, though. But Itaril!... urgh. It's not even a proper Tolkien name! There was Idril, and there was Itarille.

So maybe:

Legolas - possssssibly
Oldando Bloom - DEAR GOD NO!
Saoirse Ronan - *runs away from movie theatre* :p

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

... the vampire has been invited into the room

Just an interesting (to me) aside about the vampire invitation business that you mention: It seems only too obvious that Professor Tolkien ripped off Bram Stoker's Dracula (1897) for that scene in The Two Towers (1954) where Smeagol-Gollum crawls "head first" down a rock precipice -- "like a nasty crawling spider on a wall" -- following Frodo and Sam, just as Jonathan Harker had witnessed the Count emerging from a window over a "dreadful abyss" and then crawling "face down" the sides of the castle, "just as a lizard moves along a wall."

As much as we love to give Peter Jackson deserved grief for his use of purloined film clichés, it only seems fair to note where literary authors such as Professor Tolkien have succumbed to the same temptation.

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Itaril - double no!

A separate thread already exists for disparaging -- and dispensing with -- this dreadfully stupid fan-fiction abomination. And since the teenage actress most mentioned for the role has publicly announced that she will not take part in The Hobbit movies, then perhaps we have mercifully escaped the execrable ...

Legolas - possssssibly

As for Legolas, Tolkien first mentions him at "The Council of Elrond" (Book II, Chapter Two of The Fellowship of the Ring):

"[Elrond] then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before. There was a younger dwarf at Glóin's side: his son Gimli. ... There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves in Northern Mirkwood."

Legolas -- although non-existent as a character in The Hobbit -- first has a role to play in The Lord of the Rings by bringing up some unwelcome news:

"Alas! alas!" cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. "The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped."

"Escaped?" cried Aragorn. "That is ill news indeed. We shall all rue it bitterly, I fear. How came the folk of Thranduil to fail in their trust?"

"Not through lack of watchfulness," said Legolas; "but perhaps through over-kindliness. And we fear that the prisoner had aid from others, and that more is known of our doings than we could wish. We guarded this creature day and night, at Gandalf's bidding, much though we wearied of the task. But Gandalf made us hope still for his cure, and we had not the heart to keep him ever in dungeons under the earth, where he would fall back into his old black thoughts."

"You were less tender to me," said Glóin with a flash in his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven king's halls."

Now, if Peter Jackson seizes upon Tolkien's use of the pronoun "you" (in the singular) as meaning Legolas personally and not just the Mirkwood Elves in general, then Gimli's father Glóin could have had dealings with Prince Legolas previously, say, in getting arrested in Mirkwood Forest for the crime of disturbing the elves at their merry-making. Thin. Pretty damn thin, but some Elf has to bag the dwarves in the forest and haul them before King Thranduil and then off to their dungeon cells. Why not Prince Legolas himself? Thus, Peter Jackson could imaginatively claim that Tolkien did, after all, use the word "you" in reference to Legolas in The Fellowship and that therefore, extrapolating backwards to The Hobbit film, Orlando Bloom can have something to do in the movie -- aside from the wind-up fan-boy Orc slashing thing, of course.

Just saying ...

[Galadriel55]

Now, if Peter Jackson seizes upon Tolkien's use of the pronoun "you" (in the singular) as meaning Legolas personally and not just the Mirkwood Elves in general, then Gimli's father Glóin could have had dealings with Prince Legolas previously, say, in getting arrested in Mirkwood Forest for the crime of disturbing the elves at their merry-making. Thin. Pretty damn thin, but some Elf has to bag the dwarves in the forest and haul them before King Thranduil and then off to their dungeon cells. Why not Prince Legolas himself?

What? Have Legolas do the dirty work? No, I think he'll gallantly lead the Elf-warriors into battle!

:rolleyes:

[Lalaith]

Freeman as Bilbo at Bag End, dwarves in the background (http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20504849_20980350,00.html)

[Inziladun]

He just doesn't look very Hobbit-like to me. Where's the abdominal fat? And what's with the "Dwarf-pattern baldness" in the first pic? ;)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Seems not stout and aged enough for a middle-aged petit bourgois
gentlehobbit.

But I see PJ probably got ahold of a picture of the postcard that inspired
JRRT about Galdalf.

[Mithalwen]

He just doesn't look very Hobbit-like to me. Where's the abdominal fat? And what's with the "Dwarf-pattern baldness" in the first pic? ;)

Don't remember Elijah Wood having a lot of that in the LOTR films... the feet look insanely big

[Inziladun]

Don't remember Elijah Wood having a lot of that in the LOTR films...

True. At least the inconsistency is consistent. :rolleyes:

[narfforc]

I've just read in Empire magazine that Jackson will be filming Gandalf AND Elrond scouting the dungeons of Dol Guldur......I always thought it was Gandalf alone who did this.....can anyone shed any light on where he got that from. Gandalf finds Thrain in the dungeons and is given the map and key....the first time Elrond sees this map is when they stay at Rivendell so Elrond can't have been on that trip....the only thing I can think of is maybe prior to the White Council attack?

[Galadriel55]

Gandalf went to Dol Guldur alone. But agent Elrond has to have some important role in the movies! :rolleyes:

[Kuruharan]

What is up with Nori's hair?! :mad:

http://www.movieline.com/2011/07/first-look-peter-jackson-unveils-photo-of-the-hobbit-dwarves.php

[Galadriel55]

What is up with Nori's hair?! :mad:

http://www.movieline.com/2011/07/first-look-peter-jackson-unveils-photo-of-the-hobbit-dwarves.php

And what's up with Dori's hair? And why does Ori look drunk?

And what happened to the colourful cloaks? :mad:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Dudes, it's PJ. I'm surprised half the dwarves weren't made female
(with fake beards because dwarves just want to protect/hide their women).
Oops, hope PJ and friends don't read that. Might give them ideas. :eek:

[Galadriel55]

Dudes, it's PJ.

No surprises. :rolleyes:

I'm surprised half the dwarves weren't made female

Well, they have Itaril/Tauriel for the strong female character.

Might give them ideas. :eek:

They alredy have ideas!!!

[Kuruharan]

Dudes, it's PJ.

Yes...but Nori looks like he has a star implanted in his head...

[Mithalwen]

Dudes, it's PJ. I'm surprised half the dwarves weren't made female
(with fake beards because dwarves just want to protect/hide their women).
Oops, hope PJ and friends don't read that. Might give them ideas. :eek:

Dwarf women have beards... and I think it is a hat.

[narfforc]

Has anyone else noticed what Ori is holding.......... he is credited by Gimli as the writer of some of the script in that book (I'm not saying this is that book), looks like someone on the staff of this film has done a little homework though.

[Inziladun]

Has anyone else noticed what Ori is holding.......... he is credited by Gimli as the writer of some of the script in that book (I'm not saying this is that book), looks like someone on the staff of this film has done a little homework though.

I guess that was Ori's personal journal. Good thing Gandalf didn't read everything he saw! ;)

"Dear diary, today I told Dís her beard glittered in the sunlight like snow on Zirakzigil. She picked me up and threw me headfirst into the wall. How I love her!"

[Galadriel55]

"Dear diary, today I told Dís her beard glittered in the sunlight like snow on Zirakzigil. She picked me up and threw me headfirst into the wall. How I love her!"

Ha! A lesson for all Dwarves not to compare beards of their young (and not-so-young) ladies to anything white! :D

Made me think: what if PJ will show the Dwarven "peaceful times"? With the full poplation? :eek:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Mithalwen
Dwarf women have beards... and I think it is a hat.

I forgot to make it clear. The idea in an above post(not overly charitable to PJ),
was that his excuse for actually having female dwarves in Thorin and Co.
(and the narrator of The Hobbit not noticing) was that female dwarves don't
really have beards but started that tale to deceive non-dwarves. I mean,
the guy who had Aragorn disappear in TTT until a horse woke him up,
the Ents vote against attacking Isengard, the green slime at Minas Tirith
making the charge of the Rohirrim pointless would have a problem with switching
dwarf genders?

And what was the REAL reason Thorin never married? Hmm?

[Mithalwen]

He was an arrogant and pompous git and dwarf women were too spoilt for choice and sensible to be impressed by the idea of being Queen Consort of a realm currently occupied by a large and fierce dragon? As my granny used to say "I wouldn't have him if his hair hung with diamonds"

[oddkins]

So far images of 10 of the dwarves have been released over the past few days...

here's a composite shot of the gang from IMDb
http://i53.tinypic.com/28sy4vn.jpg

From L-R Nori, Ori, Dori, Oin, Gloin, Fili, Kili, Bombur, Bofur, Bifur

[Mithalwen]

Fili and Kili don't look very alike for brothers..

[Morthoron]

Fili and Kili don't look very alike for brothers..

They must be fraternal. ;)

[Thinlómien]

Oh my goodness - Ori, Dori and Oin are pretty cool, Bombur is eww, Bofur looks like a lumberjack and Kili is way too good-looking and beardless for a dwarf!

[LadyBrooke]

I am now refusing to refer to most of them by their names....there is StarDwarf, BeardNecklace, Turli, ect....

[Mister Underhill]

Yeah, I can understand the impulse to try to make each dwarf visually distinctive when you're trying to juggle thirteen of the buggers, but there is only one word that applies to most of these designs, and that word is overworked. What's up with the triangle-do, first and foremost? And exactly what is that disgusting loop of hair necklace? "Nori" appears to have cornrows, and "Gloin" has such complicated beard jewelry/braiding that he makes Jack Sparrow look like a piker. Not feeling this, as the kids say. ;)

[Folwren]

Oh my goodness - Ori, Dori and Oin are pretty cool, Bombur is eww, Bofur looks like a lumberjack and Kili is way too good-looking and beardless for a dwarf!

Hey, who says Dwarves aren't good looking? ;)

All in all, they really don't look the way I imagined the dwarves.

Are there any pictures of Thorin yet?

-- Folwren

[LadyBrooke]

Are there any pictures of Thorin yet?

No...Thorin, Dwalin, and Balin are all missing.

For our resident Elrond fan, Screen Shot from the production video thing (http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Screen-shot-2011-07-09-at-12.29.52-PM.png) that shows him and Bilbo on set.....there you go, Mith.

[Mithalwen]

*wub* lovely Hugo in a new frock... splendid, thank you. There are other Hugo fans you know.... and I know I am not alone in my appreciation of Mr Armitage even if he be blighted by a beard..... :Merisu:

[LadyBrooke]

*wub* lovely Hugo in a new frock... splendid, thank you. There are other Hugo fans you know.... and I know I am not alone in my appreciation of Mr Armitage even if he be blighted by a beard..... :Merisu:

Yes, but you're the only one I can think of for sure off the top of my head...and I wouldn't want to confuse anybody with another person. :p

Which one is Armitage? I seldom pay attention to who the actor actually is....

I'm still hoping Cirdan is going to be cast, if the do the White Council...he's named as a member in the books. :(

[Kuruharan]

Kili is way too good-looking and beardless for a dwarf!

I would say I completely agree with this...but Folwren has a point. I mean, I'm gorgeous and I'm as dwarfy as they come. ;)

He does not have enough beard though and he looks waaaaaay too much like a hipster.

I know dwarves are supposed to have bigger ears...but is it just me or did they perhaps exaggerate that just a touch? On Nori and Kili in particular it looks jarring in my eyes, like the ears are not really attached to the actors and are just sloppily photoshopped on...

Edit...

And what is with all the stupid looking swords..?

[Inziladun]

And what is with all the stupid looking swords..?

Indeed. They seem to favour axes in the books.
Actually, I always wondered how Thorin could effectively have wielded a sword made for the tall Noldor, but that's another matter. ;)

[LadyBrooke]

Indeed. They seem to favour axes in the books.
Actually, I always wondered how Thorin could effectively have wielded a sword made for the tall Noldor, but that's another matter. ;)

Yes...that's a very good question. Of course, Orcrist, Glamdring, and Sting never made that much sense to me anyways. A glowing blue sword is a good way to tell you that orcs are near - it's also a good way to tell the orcs where you are. :p Assuming that Orcrist was a two handed sword like Glamdring, it's very odd for Thorin to be able to wield it well, since in my (admittedly limited) experience with swords, two handed swords tend to be longer....of course, who knows what went on in the makers mind. Or maybe the original owner of it was very very short for an elf. :p

[oddkins]

No...Thorin, Dwalin, and Balin are all missing.

For our resident Elrond fan, Screen Shot from the production video thing (http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Screen-shot-2011-07-09-at-12.29.52-PM.png) that shows him and Bilbo on set.....there you go, Mith.

Balin and Dwalin...
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/15/time-exclusive-first-look-at-balin-and-dwalin-from-the-hobbit-movie/#ixzz1SAJeGrDI

[Mithalwen]

Yes, but you're the only one I can think of for sure off the top of my head...and I wouldn't want to confuse anybody with another person. :p

Which one is Armitage? I seldom pay attention to who the actor actually is....

I'm still hoping Cirdan is going to be cast, if the do the White Council...he's named as a member in the books. :(


Encaitaire is another but she is seldom here alas. And I rather suspect I was a Hugo fan before she was born :eek:

Richard Armitage is Thorin and Lalaith and Lalwende are also fans....

[Folwren]

Richard Armitage is Thorin and Lalaith and Lalwende are also fans....

You might call me a fan...I liked him in North & South.

[Mithalwen]

I have that on DVD but I havne't seen it yet (I saw the final episode only when broadcast) I need to see if I can get teh silly DVD player to work again.... He was very good in "Spooks"(MI-5) - well in the first series - in teh second they completely reinvented the character and I was miffed. I just think he is pure Numenorean and it seems bizarre he is playing a dwarf.

[Nolwë_Namiel]

Is it my imagination or does Bombur look like Barliman Butterbur?

Methinks, Mr. Jackson should revisit the trilogy and pay particular attention to Gimli so he can remember what dwarves are supposed to look like. :rolleyes:

I guess Thorin's bright blue cloak is a no-go .... :p

[Kuruharan]

I always wondered how Thorin could effectively have wielded a sword made for the tall Noldor, but that's another matter. ;)

He probably wielded it two-handed, similar to a Zweihänder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder).

[Inziladun]

He probably wielded it two-handed, similar to a Zweihänder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder).

You'd think the mere length of the sword would have made it cumbersome for a dwarf, though. That would explain why they mostly seem to have used axes and mattocks.

[Galadriel]

Odd I didn't mention this before, but wouldn't it be funny if PJ actually gave the Dwarves blue and yellow beards - the way Tolkien described them? :Merisu:

[oddkins]

TORn gets world exclusive reveal on first picture of Thorin Oakenshield (and Goblin- cleaver Orcrist!)
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2011/07/17/46145-theonering-net-exclusive-behold-thorin-oakenshield-and-orcrist/

[Inziladun]

TORn gets world exclusive reveal on first picture of Thorin Oakshield (and Goblin- cleaver Orcrist!)
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2011/07/17/46145-theonering-net-exclusive-behold-thorin-oakenshield-and-orcrist/

Looks like Robert Downey Jr's Battlefield Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_Earth_(film)) audition.

[fimbulfambi]

Ugh.

Thorin looks like everything that's wrong with PJ's interpretation of Tolkien's work.

I'm afraid we won't get a cinematic adaption of The Hobbit, which is basically a book for children, but nonetheless has some more subtle, tender ideas and messages which can be moving for adults as well. (Just read the deathbed scene at the end of the novel).

Instead, judging by our previous experiences with Jackson, we will get a nauseating blend of angsty fanfiction, various scenes from other works of Tolkien which just don't belong in The Hobbit (and just don't provide enough material for a fleshed-out narrative - any scenes about the White Council will need completely new dialogues, and we all know how good the PJ team is in that department :rolleyes:), as well as an inappropriate emphasis on the martial aspects of the plot. (PJ's dwarves just don't look like they're about to go on a journey where weapons are only of secondary importance.)

Basically, we'll get a gritty reboot, and the ridiculous images of Thorin, Dwalin and especially Kili prove this in my opinion.

By the way, is there a piece of a hammer sticking in Bifur's head?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/axeinthebrain.jpg/

[LadyBrooke]

Hi! Welcome to the site. Did you find it while looking for a place to vent about PJ's movies, and not be accused of being several unflattering terms (I got called a B**** the other day on another site....it was rather funny. :p) If so, you're in the right place. :D

As far as your final question goes....yes. And I have no idea why. :( Idiotic costume design...come on, I know Middle-Earth wasn't exactly modern day medical techniques, but I'm pretty sure leaving hammers in somebody's head sounded like a bad idea say, the day after the elves awoke.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

from what I've seen on ToRN the Dwarves look far too harsh,
unlike The Hobbit Thorin & Co. How they could ever work with
the slapstick comedy of surprising Bilbo (and then Beorn) stretches
credulity.

And that's a good point about dialogue needed in the White Council.

This again is an example of CT's extremism in non-cooperation with PJ
has hurt the movies (he could have, both through general influence and in
rewrites, have ameliorated some of the worst aspects of PJ's films,
while bolstering his strenghts---particularly cinematography).

[LadyBrooke]

This again is an example of CT's extremism in non-cooperation with PJ has hurt the movies (he could have, both through general influence and in rewrites, have ameliorated some of the worst aspects of PJ's films,
while bolstering his strenghts---particularly cinematography).

Yes, if CT had wanted to, he probably could have had great influence over the films, and stopped some of the idiotic decisions. One of the reasons* - and I'm pretty sure everybody knows I'm a huge fan of them by now - that I like both McKellen and Lee is that they are fans of the books and not just actors reading the script. I believe that somewhere on one of the EE discs, PJ mentions McKellen mentioning to him when things got too far from the book (and if that's true, I shudder to think what kind of movie we would have had without him.).

Edited to add: Just started reading McKellen's Hobbit blog. Apparently, Gandalf's silver scarf and black boots are part of the costume. :D

*You all would be here all day if I listed all the reasons. They're just cool men.

[Mithalwen]

No he couldn't. Unless it is written into the deal authors (or their estates) have no power whatsoever. JK Rowling had power because apart from anything else she hadn't finished the books and could say it compromised the plot.

The other year there was an adaptation of Jodi Picoult 's "My sister's keeper" - they completely changed the ending in a life or death manner and she had no influence whatsoever.

They would have dismissed any criticism of CRT reference his lack of knowledge of screenwriting and movie making. The would have not given an inch. They might have liked his blessing but they wouldn't have wanted any input beyond clearance to use material in UT. CRT is 86 years old and has given us 30 years of editing his father's papers, I hope he spends what time is left to him in pursuits he enjoys. Why should he waste it on something he isn't interested in and can't control.

Lee is a genuine fan, McKellen has been a bit disparaging of Tolkien in some interviews.

[LadyBrooke]

No he couldn't. Unless it is written into the deal authors (or their estates) have no power whatsoever. JK Rowling had power because apart from anything else she hadn't finished the books and could say it compromised the plot.

He could have played the public. If he hadn't of sounded so anti-movies completely, he could have used public pressure on PJ. You just have to be smart and manipulative. CT is a brilliant man, but his PR skills need work. After all...it's so much fun to try and make the public turn to your side. Politics and the movie industry have a lot in common...

They would have dismissed any criticism of CRT reference his lack of knowledge of screenwriting and movie making. The would have not given an inch. They might have liked his blessing but they wouldn't have wanted any input beyond clearance to use material in UT.
So then you make a deal....I'll let you use this, but you have to do this, change that, and do this. And you get it written in a legally binding contract. Then, if they don't do it, you sue them and take all their hard earned by breaking the contract money for yourself. And yes, I really am like that in real life.

CRT is 86 years old and has given us 30 years of editing his father's papers, I hope he spends what time is left to him in pursuits he enjoys. Why should he waste it on something he isn't interested in and can't control.
If he isn't interested in it, then why did he try to sue to stop it? Or give any newspaper interviews about it? Though, I agree...if he wants nothing to do with it, then that's his well earned right.

Lee is a genuine fan, McKellen has been a bit disparaging of Tolkien in some interviews.
At least he's read the books - I'm not sure how many of the other actors have. I haven't read the interviews, so I'm not able to comment on how disparaging he might have been. I used to be a huge fan of Harry Potter - didn't mean I worshiped Rowling blindly, and I did get on message boards and comment on her mistakes (math is not a strong point of hers...) Not that I'm entirely sure how you can be a little disparaging....I was always thought that disparaging meant regard as being worth almost nothing.

[Mithalwen]

1, Christopher Tolkien has lived quietly in France for many years. He does not seek publicity and doesn't even use his own name when travelling to avoid it. Why you think a man already in his seventies would want to start to play media games I don't know. He is neither a politician nor a film maker, he is a scholar.

2, Christopher Tolkien did not make the film deal. His father did so because basically he had a major cash flow problem due to the punitive tax regime in force in the UK in the sixties which meant he had to pay in tax a huge proportion of his earnings before he actually received them. 2a, This isn't about you. He has not sold film rights to any of the works "under his watch" and there is zero chance he will. Adam may feel differently should he take up the mantle as seems likely and he may well have the inclination and nous to set up rowling like controls.

3, I don't think Christopher has given an interview for a very long time - maybe since the Silmarillion - there is a video on youtube - on anything. He did respond to a list of questions regarding the Children of Hurin. The estate sued to stop the film because of a breach of contract. When Tolkien sold the rights for a relatively modest sum there was a clause that he or his estate was due a portion of the profits. These weren't paid and that voided the contract There has been a settlement of an undisclosed amount though the Tolkien Trust accounts give a lot of clues. The Tolkien Trust gives many hundred of thousands of pounds to educational and humanitarian charities worldwide.

4, The interviews I saw gave me the impression that McKellen didn't rate Tolkien as a writer. But then I don't rate McKellen as Gandalf,
Rowling certainly didn't take much care with her Astronomy.

I can't believe Christopher Tolkien is being slagged off for the films failings as well as everything else. He couldn't get more stick if he had burnt every last scrap of manuscript. Absolutely beggars belief... what do you want from the man? Blood?

[Nerwen]

They would have dismissed any criticism of CRT reference his lack of knowledge of screenwriting and movie making. The would have not given an inch. They might have liked his blessing but they wouldn't have wanted any input beyond clearance to use material in UT.
So then you make a deal....I'll let you use this, but you have to do this, change that, and do this. And you get it written in a legally binding contract. Then, if they don't do it, you sue them and take all their hard earned by breaking the contract money for yourself. And yes, I really am like that in real life.
Well, apart from the fact that it doesn't apply in this case, since the rights had already been sold, those kind of tactics are much more likely to result in the film not being made at all, or being delayed indefinitely, rather than in improving it. And that's if you (as a hypothetical novelist) were able to negotiate a deal like that in the first place– which is not all that easy. I mean, film people don't like an author trying to drive the production from the back seat. I can't say I blame them, either.

[LadyBrooke]

2a, This isn't about you.
I wasn't saying it was - I was referring to the fact that that would be unlike him, because it is a rather b***** stand to take. I didn't make that clear enough, that it would take somebody like me, who really enjoys it to do that. As I said in the third quote, he does have the right to stop due to all the hard work he's put in.

I don't think Christopher has given an interview for a very long time - maybe since the Silmarillion - there is a video on youtube - on anything.
I got slightly confused - it was not an interview, but rather a statement he released. While I cannot find the AP report itself, which had just the statement, and little of the speculation BBC includes, here is the BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1697884.stm) in which he says he believes that "My own position is that 'The Lord Of The Rings' is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form." You don't release a statement saying that if you have no feelings.

I can't believe Christopher Tolkien is being slagged off for the films failings as well as everything else. He couldn't get more stick if he had burnt every last scrap of manuscript. Absolutely beggars belief... what do you want from the man? Blood?

And I can't believe that you have somehow managed to change a I wish he wanted to because it would have been a better movie into blaming him for the mistakes - I leave full blame for the mistakes on PJ. All I said was that I wished Christopher Tolkien had a more active role, because I believe it could have and would have been a better movie. I can understand why he didn't, because he is an old man. I could have easily said that I had wished J.R.R. Tolkien was still around, and would you be jumping on me for that? Because I do. I honestly wish a movie had been made while he was alive, so that he could have reacted to it. I could have said that I wished that J.R.R. Tolkien had a stricter contract sold (which I do) that left limits on what the filmmaker's could do. Do you now think that I blame a dead man for what went wrong with the movies? There's a difference between blaming somebody for want went wrong, and wishing they were there to keep it from getting that bad.

I mean, film people don't like an author trying to drive the production from the back seat. I can't say I blame them, either.

I can say I blame them...if you don't want to stay true to the book, don't adapt a book for a script. And certainly don't claim you're adapting a book, and then go 180 degrees opposite of a book. Because to me, that shows disrespect for the book and the author. Perhaps I'm weird, but I don't think this movie or LotR will be/was an adaption of the books. I think they're a sort of glorified fanfic script, because they're not true to the book. I don't watch movies frequently, and if going to see an adaption of a book, I don't want to see dwarves with hammers hanging out of their heads, or every warrior from Lothlorien get slaughtered in a battle. The worst moments in the movies are when the script has no backing from Tolkien's writings.

[Galin]

And I can't believe that you [meaning Mithalwen] have somehow managed to change a I wish he wanted to because it would have been a better movie into blaming him for the mistakes - I leave full blame for the mistakes on PJ.

Very well, but I think you still implied at least (through your wish, even if unintended), that Christopher Tolkien 'should' have done something that he didn't, something that only possibly might have changed the films into some measure of better, which judging by the reactions on the web, 'better' for a film being quite subjective in the first place.

All I said was that I wished Christopher Tolkien had a more active role, because I believe it could have and would have been a better movie. I can understand why he didn't, because he is an old man.

Not that you said otherwise, but Christopher Tolkien, at any age, is also entitled to his opinion about the suitability of the book being adapted for film, and we have no reason to not believe him. Plus, as you're talking about mights and maybes here, any involvement would also maybe (which I think likely actually) result in the filmmakers claiming (something like): 'and we had Christopher Tolkien's input too' generalizing in the extreme and giving their films a false sense of 'authorization' even in some measure.

And considering how poor I think these adaptations are (and I obviously cannot speak for Christopher Tolkien), 'better' would need to be significantly better, possibly starting with rewrites on page one, and a wholly different take on certain characters, tone, focus, action, 'modernization' and humor.

What if CJRT agreed with me after seeing the film treatment (as I'm sure he would) ;)

Let's say after months of only hopeful work Christopher Tolkien gave us 'closer to Tolkien' here or there and arguably made the films better, but if the end sum is still significantly poor as far as 'faithful' is concerned, then I think CJRT would certainly be hailed as a contributor, yet in this possible scenario, would feel that he basically failed in a larger context in any case. Even if betterness is achieved (according to enough opinions) there's no guarantee of putting out a work that Christopher Tolkien would not mind having his name attached to -- which I think shirly would happen if the filmmakers changed even only a number of small details because of his advice.



I'm not in the camp of 'never try' to better something even if things seem unlikely, but afterall this is a film (hyperbole alert) not world hunger, and I think your wish places Christopher Tolkien into a potentially unwanted situation; and it's not the first film based on Tolkien's work, won't be the last, and certainly isn't alone among various interpretations from various fields of art.


Ask a man somewhat advanced in years, who already doesn't think the book is suitable for film (for his own reasons) to drop his work on The Children of Hurin (it would seem, and at least for a time), to try to sway some director about the latest film adaptation because it might be better in some measure (if they listen to him), but not necessarily faithful in sum to the work he truly cares about?

[LadyBrooke]

Very well, but I think you still implied at least (through your wish, even if unintended), that Christopher Tolkien 'should' have done something that he didn't, something that only possibly might have changed the films into some measure of better, which judging by the reactions on the web, 'better' for a film being quite subjective in the first place.
Well, I try to never read implieds into anything anybody says on a forum - for one thing, tone of voice (which is crucial to how I communicate....I have different tones of voice for almost everything, and my friends very quickly catch on to them.), facial expressions, and personalities don't translate well - I am on of those people who likes what ifs, and I tend to comment on them.

Not that you said otherwise, but Christopher Tolkien, at any age, is also entitled to his opinion about the suitability of the book being adapted for film, and we have no reason to not believe him.
And I agree with him - quite frankly, I think the Hobbit, judging by facts and pictures so far released by PJ, is one of those films that at the least, can not be adapted by any film maker who is a slave to the current perception of public wants (and judging by Tauriel and the inclusion of Legolas, I believe PJ by now is one. As I said at the end of my post, I believe that filmmaker's who adapt things have a responsibility to keep them as close to the original as possible. If and when PJ fails this, he deserves scorn, IMO.

Plus, as you're talking about mights and maybes here, any involvement would also maybe (which I think likely actually) result in the filmmakers claiming (something like): 'and we had Christopher Tolkien's input too' generalizing in the extreme and giving their films a false sense of 'authorization' even in some measure.
Don't they already do this to an extent? I remember there being a hoopla on other quarters of the internet about how they got Alan Lee and the others to work on the film, so it was automatically a good adaption. As it stands, they've managed to turn it into a poor oppressed by the author's son situation. On here, we all know the work Christopher has done. Go on some of the other forums, and you'll find people saying that he's done nothing and is oppressing poor PJ. I can't say that I agree with Christopher Tolkien on all counts, but he ranks higher then PJ for me, just because when he messes something up (like Gil-galad's heritage) he doesn't shoot off about how it improves it, he fesses up and admits it. PJ one the other hand, tends to oh it improved it and made it so much better.

And considering how poor I think these adaptations are (and I obviously cannot speak for Christopher Tolkien), 'better' would need to be significantly better, possibly starting with rewrites on page one, and a wholly different take on certain characters, tone, focus, action, 'modernization' and humor.
Agreed - which is why I said that a contract would have been a must in that situation. I don't blame him for not wanting to get into it, especially since even with a contract, there are never assurances of not getting screwed over anyways. Personally, I agree Christopher - I don't think the books are well suited to screen. Not as long as people prefer hot women and action, over plots and characterization.

I'm not in the camp of 'never try' to better something even if things seem unlikely, but afterall this is a film (hyperbole alert) not world hunger, and I think your wish places Christopher Tolkien into a potentially unwanted situation; and it's not the first film based on Tolkien's work, won't be the last, and certainly isn't alone among various interpretations from various fields of art.
As an aside, you'll find that I don't like most of the interpretations - I recently worked on a Silm guide for a website, and had to track down artwork for it. By the time we were all finished, we were all nearly insane from that art. :p That's an aside that really has nothing to do with CT or the films...just, don't search DA if you're not prepared to run across some truly horrible "interpretations" of his works.

I don't see how my wish places anybody anywhere - it was a pondering of a hypothetical, which has no real power. As far as I know, I am not the goddess of movie making or script writing. :p

[Bofur]

The worst thing about the dwarves thus far:

1) Thorin's lack of a mighty beard, instead he gets a nice trimmed up goatee. They are trying to give him the same bearing as Aragorn, this is obvious, but it just shouldn't be done. He's not exactly that kind of character. Instead, he looks more like a man from Dunland.

2) Bifur's head. Is that really an axe bit stuck in it? Seriously? I hope that it's a joke.

3) Kili looks entirely too much like an Elf. Although I'm not too surprised at this. You all knew it was coming - the attractive one of the bunch. FotR had Legolas, this company will have Kili. Sad but true. Nothing against the decisions to cast a good looking guy, because maybe he's perfect for the role. We'll see.

Other than that, I really don't have too many qualms with the rest of the dwarves. My namesake looks great and I don't mind the weird hat at all. Bombur is okay, I can see why some would dislike him but I really don't mind his design much. Nori's hair has to go but besides that he's fine. Dori and Ori look good to me, and Balin, Gloin, and Oin obviously look like dwarves. Fili looks too Elfish. They're (B, G, & O) probably the closest to Tolkien's dwarves in image, I would think.

[Galin]

Well, I try to never read implieds into anything anybody says on a forum - for one thing, tone of voice (which is crucial to how I communicate....I have different tones of voice for almost everything, and my friends very quickly catch on to them.), facial expressions, and personalities don't translate well - I am on of those people who likes what ifs, and I tend to comment on them.


Well I shall have to post with more caution then :)

Galin wrote: 'And considering how poor I think these adaptations are (and I obviously cannot speak for Christopher Tolkien), 'better' would need to be significantly better, possibly starting with rewrites on page one, and a wholly different take on certain characters, tone, focus, action, 'modernization' and humor.'

LadyBrooke responded: Agreed - which is why I said that a contract would have been a must in that situation.

This is what you posted about a contract: 'So then you make a deal....I'll let you use this, but you have to do this, change that, and do this. And you get it written in a legally binding contract. (...)

What is Christopher going to let Jackson use in exchange for any real say? Jackson already has what he needs to do a film based on The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. And you seem to agree that for Christopher Tolkien to put himself in this position he must be given a lot of power with respect to creativity and content, power that I don't think anyone imagines he's really going to get.

Possibly getting some things changed is no assurance of a faithful sum total in any case, so realistically why go there if all you can be assured of is the Jackson PR machine shouting the most famed Tolkien name now alive as an advisor.


I don't see how my wish places anybody anywhere - it was a pondering of a hypothetical, which has no real power. As far as I know, I am not the goddess of movie making or script writing. :p

Yet even wishes might contain unfair (from a given person's opinion) criticism.

[LadyBrooke]

Well I shall have to post with more caution then
Caution is something I've learned is a must on the internet - especially since nobody, as far as I know, has yet to develop mind reading powers (if anybody has, let me know...I'm interested. Might be useful dealing with people on the HP board I frequent...I'm still not entirely sure what one of them meant. There were a lot of 1s, !s, 2s, 4s, and a general lack of letters...)

What is Christopher going to let Jackson use in exchange for any real say? Jackson already has what he needs to do a film based on The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit.
I believe that at some point PJ or somebody else made a statement that either said or heavily hinted that they wished they could have used some material from UT - that was what I was referring to that CT had that they didn't.

And you seem to agree that for Christopher Tolkien to put himself in this position he must be given a lot of power with respect to creativity and content, power that I don't think anyone imagines he's really going to get.
Yes, I do agree....I have no wish to see Christopher Tolkien get taken advantage of by PJ. While I might be critical of Christopher Tolkien at times, as regards some of his decisions about his father's works and papers, I very much admire his dedication to his father's legacy and the true love he has for it, and would never want him to be compromised by the Hollywood greed machine. Love for the books is one thing that I think PJ has forgotten and left out of his movies....and in my dream of a utopia Christopher would have that power, but sadly my utopia doesn't exist yet, much like my title of queen of the world. :p

Yet even wishes might contain unfair (from a given person's opinion) criticism.
I can see where you're coming from with that....interpretation of one's words is one of the best and worst things about writing and posting anything. ;) I appreciate you and Mith calling me on mine, because it's forced me to clarify some things, and consider how my words might have seemed to other people. So, thanks. :)

[Bofur]

Check out PJ's newest video blog!

AWESOME TEASERS...

PJ's new vid (https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150326323406807&oid=141884481557&comments)!

[Galin]

I believe that at some point PJ or somebody else made a statement that either said or heavily hinted that they wished they could have used some material from UT - that was what I was referring to that CT had that they didn't.

Even if Jackson said this, in my opinion some material from Unfinished Tales is not even close to bargaining material for Christopher Tolkien to expect the level of creative control I think he would want; personally I doubt total use of Unfinished Tales would bargain him anywhere near 'power enough' to confidently attach his name to a film project.

If he were interested in making a film that is! which he is not.


Rowling was in a very different position here.

[Galadriel55]

TORn gets world exclusive reveal on first picture of Thorin Oakenshield (and Goblin- cleaver Orcrist!)
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2011/07/17/46145-theonering-net-exclusive-behold-thorin-oakenshield-and-orcrist/

:eek: That did it! I'm not watching the movie!!!

Or maybe I am. >.<

How they could ever work with
the slapstick comedy of surprising Bilbo (and then Beorn) stretches
credulity.

Give us food... or else.

didn't mean I worshiped Rowling blindly, and I did get on message boards and comment on her mistakes (math is not a strong point of hers...)

Definitely true, if she couldn't count how many years Dennis Creevey spent in Hogwarts before he came to the "DA" meeting in the Hog's Head...

Sorry. I couldn't resist. I will keep HP out of this discussion from now on.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE=Galadriel55;659114]:eek: That did it! I'm not watching the movie!!!

Or maybe I am


I think some of the Dwarves look a little fake. Thorin should looks too thin (and too young), Kili looks like a human (must have shaved :Merisu:), Ori looks computer-generated and odd and Bofur looks like a coal-digger from Bree. I can honestly say, though, that I like Bombur, Bifur, Balin, Oin and Gloin. I wish they had kept their hoods and their gold and silver belts, though.

But honestly, sister, I don't think Thorin is quite that bad >.<

I'm dreading what PJ is gonna do, but I still want to watch the movie :rolleyes:

[oddkins]

I have to say that the photos of the dwarves that have been released are rather over-polished, air-brushed and photoshopped (Kili has seven fingers on his left hand!) in comparison to seeing the actors in costume on Jackson's third production video-blog, as linked to by Bofur, previously:

Check out PJ's newest video blog!

AWESOME TEASERS...

PJ's new vid (https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150326323406807&oid=141884481557&comments)!

In almost all cases the dwarves look better...but really don't like the sawn-off axe in Bifur's forehead - had hoped it had been photoshopped into the posed photo for a joke...:rolleyes:

[Kuruharan]

At least they seem to be having fun on the set.

[Folwren]

That video-blog was great. I did enjoy seeing them on set, and they looked better than in the pictures.

-- Foley

[Rumil]

Is it just me or does Thorin look like Gowron, the Klingon chancellor with the big scary eyes?

[Pitchwife]

It's not just you. This face screams for some forehead make-up.

EDIT: Also, couldn't resist:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/[IMG]http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad352/pitchwife/Bomburix.jpghttp://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad352/pitchwife/Bomburix.jpg

[Galadriel55]

I found more pictures:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/mediaindex

This one is the most interesting, as it features all 13 Dwarves:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm107462400/tt0903624

Edit: I just realised that a few pictures have already been posted on this thread.

[Galadriel]

It's not just you. This face screams for some forehead make-up.

EDIT: Also, couldn't resist:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/[IMG]http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad352/pitchwife/Bomburix.jpghttp://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad352/pitchwife/Bomburix.jpg

He needs a horned helmet :D

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Got an idea. Based on the Legolas Crazy Captions thread.
PJ has Bard hit in an arm by Smaug's tail, he falls to the ground
while throwing the Red Arrow to Legolas. Hasta la vista Smaug.
He wouldn't really do that...would he?

:D

[narfforc]

Sorry Tuor but it was a Black Arrow....... The Red Arrow came from Minas Tirith to Rohan for aid. But I get your drift.....

[Galadriel55]

Sorry Tuor but it was a Black Arrow....... The Red Arrow came from Minas Tirith to Rohan for aid.

But that small detail doesn't matter! The Red Arrow needs some history behind it.

[Kuruharan]

Sorry Tuor but it was a Black Arrow....... The Red Arrow came from Minas Tirith to Rohan for aid. But I get your drift.....

I completely agree with Galadriel55. I think it being out of place only makes it more desirable in the eyes of PJ.

[Galadriel]

I completely agree with Galadriel55. I think it being out of place only makes it more desirable in the eyes of PJ.

No, he only likes things out of place when they can get guys to look hot or girls to look pretty or people to get angsty :smokin:

[Kuruharan]

No, he only likes things out of place when they can get guys to look hot or girls to look pretty or people to get angsty :smokin:

Not entirely...there was the whole army of the dead at Minas Tirith thing, which mostly just seemed to be an excuse for more CGI...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hmm. How to reconcile what would seem at first glance to be an
error on the color of the Smaug-killing arrow? Now what would
Tolkien do...

Wait! The arrow was of course black, but after being eventually
retrieved from The Long Lake it remained forever coated with Smaug's
blood and was therefore renamed the "Red Arrow."

Fun Fact: In the $$$ successful Peter Jackson 2-part movie of The
Hobbit it is Legolas who retrieves and renames the arrow. :D

[narfforc]

Or a film called The Black Arrow..... a cross between Men in Tights and The Lord of the Rings to be sub-titled The Importance of Colour-coded Arrows in Warfare.

[Galadriel55]

Now all that we need to come up with is how it got to Denethor. Ummmm... Legolas gave it as a gift to the Captain of Gondor for his military help. Esgaroth is a north Gondorian settlement, right? I mean, what else could it be? :smokin::rolleyes: