WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[the phantom]

I'm not keen on lynching BG today, but if Nerwen continues to attract attention I will vote to preserve her, as I feel her to be quite innocent.

I'm going to go back now and take a look at Steve's post and see what I think.

Heh- I really seem to be disagreeing with Nog's suspicions today (his suspicions of those who reacted to Boro as well as Nerwen).

[Glirdan]

There is still 1 hour left before DL with six players left to vote.

The tally at this time is as follows:

Folwren --> Eonwe
Greenie --> Mac
Kath --> BeiGei
Lalaith --> Boromir
Zil --> BeiGei 2
Nienna --> Eonwe 2
Sally --> BeiGei 3
Nog --> Nerwen
Wilwa -> BeiGei 4
Mira --> BeiGei 5
Rikae --> the phantom
Mc --> Nerwen 2
BeiGei --> Zil
Shasta --> Eonwe 3

[autume98]

I'm not keen on lynching BG today, but if Nerwen continues to attract attention I will vote to preserve her, as I feel her to be quite innocent.

I'm going to go back now and take a look at Steve's post and see what I think.

Heh- I really seem to be disagreeing with Nog's suspicions today (his suspicions of those who reacted to Boro as well as Nerwen).

I think we should keep Eonwe around. If he turns then we can always lynch him the next day. Right?

[Nogrod]

There goes my getting back into more European timetable... :rolleyes:

You know, Nogrod and Mac's suspicion of me, Mac's of Boro and tum's of Mac all come down to the following bit of illogic:
And this is a game where several people would need to hint at their mates or possible allies! So it would be incredible if no-one tried to make a contact!
And therefore, if you can't find proper hints, then any comment about the role "must" be a hint, even if it doesn't make sense as one.
Heh. You can not deny the lovers (and Dionysos) have a great urge to get themselves known to their allies (and with Dionysos I'm pretty positive he thinks the wolves are his allies as that's the role he's going to get if thwey spot him and he knows that in advance he's the one). It's really a big thing. The power of especially Hades after getting in contact with Persephone is far greater he has before meeting up with her. Actually he will die if Persephone dies before they get into contact but if they get into contact first, he has a revenge-kill and all that... With his lover beside him he's one of the most powerful players around, without her he's one of the most vulnerable.

I'm not talking about the suspicions of Mac or tum - even if it would suit you to bring them all together claiming they are the same thing. But I can say there is logic to what I am saying and I'm doing this because of that.

And looking at the situation (the overpowering need of so many people to find out their mate or group) it's clear some of them would risk trying it. Looking at the thread though gives one just a few candidates so they should be looked even more closely. And your mentioning Hades makes perfect sense, Nerwen. Just because it was made so early you could have not known people like me would jump on it later as there was no general discussion about looking after such hints. I mean stating it after the fact, that why would a wolf-lover say something like that if it made such a noise, is kind of futile as a wolf couldn't have known beforehand it would arouse such a discussion. Looking at the timing of your posting would actually suggest you were confident enough to throw that in as others would rant as well - and Persephone could get the hint anyway...

Certainly, I'm not sure about this. Who would be on D1? But it's by far the best lead I have - as it seems we'll get some information about the Dionysos turning.


X'd with a crowd of posts...

[Nerwen]

Re: Nerwen and Nogrod - to be honest, I think they're the standard two innocent vs. innocent that generally appear during day one. The light of my life is smarter than to openly announce that she's Hades, I think.
Thank you.

And Nogrod has a tendency to go after one person early on regardless of their alignment (I would know, :p).
Indeed... though I am wondering about his apparent hypersensitivity on the subject of Hades. You know, sometimes people get obsessed with a role because it's their role? In fact it happens surprisingly often.

EDIT:X'd since BG at #250.

[Nerwen]

Heh. You can not deny the lovers (and Dionysos) have a great urge to get themselves known to their allies
I don't deny it. But the fact that they have a motive for hinting openly doesn't prove they have.

[Boromir88]

Moving on now, I'm not sure about Nog's idea about making something of the responses to Boro, as at that stage I personally believe everyone was just itching to have something real to discuss- mechanics and hammering out rules etc. Stretching their legs. Had a Day 2 comment been over-analyzed and jumped on I'd be more likely to agree.


Indeed. I think it's mostly silly fun, but I do think out of all of it I've got a fairly good feeling about Nog. He's reminding me less of his real life WW counterpart, and in a good way.

Although, I'm not sure there was a wolf in that group trying to look at my Zeus comments. Greenie looks more or less ok, looking at all her posts in their entirety, and not just the part where I confused her with the remarks.

Wilwa and Mac know better, if they're wolves to try and pick a fight and lynch me this early, because they know I wouldn't go down easily and in the veyr least if I died they would follow. Wilwa I like slightly more than Greenie in all of it.

Mac I'm confused by what he's trying to say it is, whether I'm a random lover leaving the most vague nigh impossible hint for my partner to try and pick up on, or that I was hinting I was Zeus? Because Mac, you mentioned Mith's game where I bluntly said I was the cobbler and everyone ignored it as banter. So, you're right, I have done it and I enjoy it immensely and would probably do it again if I needed entertainment. However, for this to be true, you would have to be saying that I'm Zeus, which you said you didn't think I was doing.

In all of it, Mac's been the most astute, a bit confusing no doubt, but astute as to knowing there were intentions in that post. Question is would you believe me if I said, Zeus has absolutely nothing to do with those intentions, you're looking at the wrong part. :p

Eonwe and Lalaith feel a little less good, Eonwe's been talked enough and Lalaith, while I feel the most wary about her clinging to my Zeus post for her vote. It's too crappy of a feeling to vote for her, 'specially since she's this is her first time back in a while. Need more time on her.

[the phantom]

Okay, so I read Steve's posts, and I think he's innocent. His wine comment is the only thing that I could see that would make him look bad to anyone. Some of the other things he said were quite good. He was the one who floated the idea of the two Rangers working together to protect the Seer in fact. I see no reason for him to have suggested that as a baddie. Anyway, yeah, I can't see supporting his lynch.

Problem is, the other two people with multiple votes- I don't suspect them either. At this point though it does me little good to try floating another candidate. It seems to me that it will likely come down to deciding which person I wish to save the most. Bleh.

[Nerwen]

Mac I'm confused by what he's trying to say it is, whether I'm a random lover leaving the most vague nigh impossible hint for my partner to try and pick up on, or that I was hinting I was Zeus?
The former, apparently.

EDIT:x'd with tp.

[Loslote]

I really want Tum lynched; I'm fairly sure she's a wolf. I don't want BeiGei lynched; there's no reason for this bandwagon, and I've been on the recieving end of enough wrong bandwagons to know that it's incredibly frustrating. I don't want Nerwen lynched; I think she's innocent. I don't want Zil lynched; I think he's innocent. I don't want The Phantom lynched; that would be silly. I don't want Boro lynched; that would be illogical. I want Mac lynched; he seems furry. I wouldn't mind horribly if Steve were lynched, but I don't think it's the best move.

But neither Tum nor Mac look to be viable candidates toDay.

And I'm left with the option of seeing one of my darling probable innocents lynched, or Steve. I'm sorry, but that seems like the option I'll have to go with. I don't like it much, but lynching a probable Cursed is better than lynching a probable innocent.

++Steve

EDIT: xed since Nerwen's 256

[the phantom]

Oh, and a word of warning to everyone- don't depend on a last minute reveal to save you. In a game with plenty of Ordos and fewer Gifteds it might work, but in this village pretty much everyone is a gifted. If we all switch our votes to save a Gifted, we're likely to just lynch another Gifted, and possibly one who is more useful, not to mention the ever present possibility that the reveal is merely a WW attempting to save his hide. Doubt coupled with risk- last minute "save me" shouts are just less likely to work.

No, I'm not suggesting that you reveal earlier to save yourself, I'm just saying you need to defend yourself as the voting goes along as you probably cannot afford to wait and see.

Also, am I correct in thinking there are no retractions in this game?

edit: x-post (Yet nother Steve vote?)

[autume98]

It seems as though one of the people I see as innocent is going to get lynched toDay. Out of the three with the most votes I see all of them as innocent. It doesn't seem right to vote for any of them.

The one I feel least inclined to vote for is Eonwe. Not sure who to vote for between BG and Nerwen. However if it came to where I had to save Eonwe I think I'd have to vote for BG. Sorry BG. :(

[Nogrod]

Really, lynching BeiGei is your most cowardish option. And someone should really look closely who made it if that is what you do.

Lynching Eonwë I would not oppose to as I'm more or less convinced he's the cursed one and the wolves sure have picked him - and I don't understand that talk of him trying to be on the good side and tricking the wolves. Let us hear some arguments why he would do that and how do we seem him doing it (well, tomorrow, that is, or after his death anyway, not prior to it) as opposed to how we have seen him acting today.

Nerwen has two votes and you know what I think of her role.


Also I'm pretty confused with the phantom's points... I do normally follow his train of thought quite clearly but now I just think he has the perfect opposite view from mine and I'm baffled.

Of the other one-vote-havers Inzil, Boro and Mac I think are more innocent than not at the time.

Even if I could blame:
- Inzil for opportunism (going the way people went when he voted and being secure not to vote someone who would retaliate)
- Boro for being overtly cunning and avoiding (it's not the number of posts but the number of issues he has commented on - and the way he has done it).
- Mac for, well first not suspecting me heavily, but more like agreeing with me the most of the time!

But that's only those who have gotten votes thus far.

But the fact that they have a motive for hinting openly doesn't prove they have.No. But the fact that they have a motive - and the urge to do that - does make you look suspiciously at anything of the sort going about...


X'd with a host again...

[Blind Guardian]

All I can say is: it will hurt you if I was lynched.

[autume98]

So after making that post I think it's time for me to vote and go to bed.

++BG

Edit: x-ed with Nog and BG

[Boromir88]

I'd have to disagree with you on that one, dear. What Mac said about Boro leaving a Lover hint does make sense (even though it took me fooorever to get). I'm still pretty convinced it was innocent banter, but it does make sense.

I'm also not stoked on this suspicion of Steve, for the same reasons as I wasn't stoked on suspecting Boro and Nerwen for what could very well be innocent Day 1 banter.

People I won't be voting for toDay:
Boro


Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.

[the phantom]

A rather pointless comment here, but if I had six votes in my pocket I might actually give Nog a try, primarily because he is stretching to make attacks I disagree with.

I might also give Boro a try since he has been so unusually absent, and I can't work with him the way I usually do, plus frankly I have no clue how to read a quiet Boro. Getting him out of the way might be a weight off at the least.

But yeah- obviously not enough votes to get either of them lynched.

EDIT: x-posted with many
Also I'm pretty confused with the phantom's points... I do normally follow his train of thought quite clearly but now I just think he has the perfect opposite view from mine and I'm baffled.
Ask me a question and I'll try to answer it. What do you wonder about?

[Blind Guardian]

Nothing was posted here. Ignore me

[Loslote]

BeiGei voters - especially the later ones - really really need to be looked at toMorrow. I'd say most especially Tum, but that's just personal suspicion.

Boro - what the hey are you talking about? What happened to "Boro's not a hinting lover?" :rolleyes:

EDIT: xed with BeiGei.

[Eönwë]

Finally managed to catch up with the thread. Ok.

I have nothing real to go on. Please don't read too much into this vote.
Now that to me seems a bit like one of those "Oh, I don't know what's happening, let me just randomly vote this person, and if they're innocent it's not my fault" kind of wolf-votes. Though, on the other hand, it was really quite early, so I don't think it's really incriminating.

EDIT: xed with Steve and Foley - xe is a gender neutral way of saying "he" or "she". It's used instead of "they"...although I used "they" in this post, so nyah. :p
If anyone still wants more detail on this, and Rikae's link isn't explanative enough, this (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/sex-neutral-pronouns.html)might explain it. Blame tgwbs for this (And I didn't even play in that game in the end!).

I had originally quoted lots of false/true seer posts to reply to, but it seems that that topic's been almost exhausted now. I'll just say that I think it's hard enough to interpret well-hidden seer hints successfully, so hints for xem being false will be even harder. Especially as they wouldn't know if xe's the True or False Seer until later. And also, why are we assuming that the False seer knowing that xe's false. We could easily end up with the False Seer not realising xyr nature. That's the problem I was trying too address. And then, what about false Seer reveals? Having two Seers just makes that even more complicated.

There are revenge-kills in play, too. We'd flush out the Seers and leave them to die at the hands of angry lovers. I think, besides the fact that it is rather unsportsmanlike, it's too dangerous.
Wait, so do revenge kills go through even if the target is Ranger-Protected?

As I said to Loslote, you were talking about wolves who have dreamt of the "seer". They would have a whole night to go over the quotes of this alleged seer and decide whether or not to kill xem, and, if they're in a situation where their choice of kill is especially important (which you're assuming) there is no reason to suppose they'll miss something that will be obvious to the villagers the next day, with exactly the same information.
Exactly. There's almost as much chance of the wolves seeing any false hints as us. And with the Lovers talking to them as well (I assume they also don't want the Seer finding their Lover a Wolf), they have 7 of them (Of course, we have 13, but we're not all united in one purpose like they are- in this case, killing the Seer).

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.
This is what I originally thought. She could be hinting that she wants Hades to talk to her. Of course, this whole Nerwen thing could be blown highly out of proportion, especially considering the thing below.

Why not just say "I'm ill"?
Because the gods do not fall ill. The only way they succumb is to alcohol and poison. My sleep-deprived brain tried to make an in-game analogy, and look what it's turned into! And why would I be so obvious as well? Because I didn't think of it as a hint, I seem to have ignored the fact that any reference to Greek mythology could refer to one of the roles, and that suspicions have been based on many of these. In fact, I even commented on one of these in that very post. So why would I make it so obvious? I might as well have just said "Lynch me! Lynch me!" all day.

And Nogrod, if you are innocent, why would you mention that I could be Cursed if no-one had picked up on it yet? If I had been the Cursed, you would have just advertised me to the wolves. Of course, it is true that you may have found it harder to convince others of it later if the Cursed does turn, but probably not much more than you did toDay. Though then again, if there would be less evidence later, you might have realised that it was just a bad choice of words.

Yes, sorry village. And the problem is that now you've wasted your time debating over me instead of the real matter at hand- the wolves.

Do you remember his first post

And then there is the Dionysos-stuff.

Both scream "see who I am wolves!" to me. So he went all he could trying to get their attention and to make him their target.
Much too obvious, as I said. And because he's sticking to this so much, maybe Nogrod's a wolf who's trying to double-bluff by suggesting that I'm the Cursed so that if it turns out that I am, he could seem like he was trying to help the village, while totally distancing himself from the wolves (who would probably try to keep it quiet). In fact, maybe this whole thing is something Nogrod decided to latch onto because doing this would make him seem so un-wolvish.

Well then.

I'm pretty sure Eonwë is the cursed villager and he wishes to be a wolf.
Now honestly, I wouldn't do that as a Cursed. Until xe is tured into a wolf, the Cursed is on the side of the village. I always try to play fair in WW, so if I was the Cursed it would be completely against my role, and the moral obligations of the game of Werewolf in general. So no, it would just be wrong to do something like that.


Some more comments:

-Mac is strange(r than usual) in this game. Sometimes he seems innocent and helpful, other times he seems very calculating and sneaky (And I'm not sure which the "Day in Three Parts" or whatever list comes up in. Probably both. At first I thought it looked good but now it seems that maybe he's trying to look helpful too much. But it is quite an original idea, so maybe not.) I'm currently leaning towards an Innocent, but quite possible an Innocent Lover.

-The BG bandwaggon is bad. Very bad.

-Greenie also seems like there's something strange about her. Not evil, per se, but not totally innocent and looking out for the village. So I also suspect Lover, though Innocent or Wolf I cannot tell.

edit: x-ed with this entire page.

[the phantom]

What happens in the case of a tie?

[Glirdan]

In case of a tie, it shall be the last person to receive a vote that shall be lynched.

[Boromir88]

All I can say is: it will hurt you if I was lynched.

Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.

[Nogrod]

Some of the other things he said were quite good. He was the one who floated the idea of the two Rangers working together to protect the Seer in fact. I see no reason for him to have suggested that as a baddie. Now here we disagree again - and it is nice to see you taking that up as I let that out from my final account of him to see would anyone else take it up and in what way would they do it.

Now, if he really wants to get killed, what would he do? Raise the awareness of the wolves, surely. The "wolf!" post was the first trial and the Dionysos thing was his second... but then he wanted to make sure he got the attention and went for that great idea of rangers doing double-shift... if they didn't get the hint from the earlier ones, the wolves should find him dangerous and thus kill him!

Maybe he was waiting for more immediate feedback or just tried all his options as they came to him, I don't know. And obviously I'm not 100% sure about it, but it looks like it really all talks about the same thing. All those posts could be seen as ways to attract the wolves into killing him - and that's a lot from one person on one Day just randomly!

Heh, x'd again...

[Boromir88]

Boro - what the hey are you talking about? What happened to "Boro's not a hinting lover?" :rolleyes:


There are other roles who have picks of their own to make who are not lovers ya know.

[Blind Guardian]

Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.

That sounds seerish to me. Cause one seer is false. Or a wolf trying to look important.

[Loslote]

There are other roles who have picks of their own to make who are not lovers ya know.

Mm, but that's the one that comes to mind, particularly with the recent...for lack of a better phrase..."Zeus scandal." Really though, your blatant disregard for others' suspicion makes you seem almost innocent. Bugger, my brain hurts. :rolleyes:

EDIT: xed with BeiGei

[the phantom]

All right- time to decide my vote. The multi-vote getters I believe to be innocent, so....

Nerwen is the one I like the most. Definitely won't vote for her. Plus I believe she may be low enough that she would be a throwaway as well.

BG under most circumstances would definitely be my choice (due to play style and such), but as BG is very new (at least to me) and has according to what I'm hearing been lynched early on a regular basis, I'm going to attempt to spare her this time around out of courtesy, leaving me with...

++ Eonwe

Sorry, lad, but I just don't want to jump on the BG wagon. Not on Day 1. I want to give her a chance.

(x-posted with many posts)

[Eönwë]

A rather pointless comment here, but if I had six votes in my pocket I might actually give Nog a try, primarily because he is stretching to make attacks I disagree with.

I would second this. His arguments do seem quite stretched, for example his suspicion of me would mean I have to go against both my role and even the spirit of the game.

edit: x-ed since last post.

[Loslote]

That sounds seerish to me. Cause one seer is false. Or a wolf trying to look important.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think there's a simpler explanation. Boro is saying that he's important. A 5 indicates that you'd be a loss, yes, but average loss. The Hunter, for instance, would be a loss of about 1 - we wouldn't have lynched a wolf, but that's what the Hunter was meant to do, die. The Seer would normally be a loss of about 9, but in this game, probably more of a 7 or 8. (This is, of course, my ranking. I have no idea how Boro'd rank roles.) You wouldn't have to be a Seer to hazard a guess that your role is about average - it's a safe guess. Most peoples' roles are about average.

Heh. This wasn't meant to be so long. :rolleyes:

EDIT: xed since my last

[Glirdan]

Ten minutes left with 4 people to vote.

The tally stands thus:

Folwren --> Eonwe
Greenie --> Mac
Kath --> BeiGei
Lalaith --> Boromir
Zil --> BeiGei 2
Nienna --> Eonwe 2
Sally --> BeiGei 3
Nog --> Nerwen
Wilwa --> BeiGei 4
Mira --> BeiGei 5
Rikae --> the phantom
Mc --> Nerwen 2
BeiGei --> Zil
Shasta --> Eonwe 3
Lottie --> Eonwe 4
Tum --> BeiGei 6


Xed with a few ppl

[the phantom]

I feel really stupid for defending Eonwe and suspecting Nog for his suspicion of Eonwe, but then I VOTE for Eonwe. :rolleyes:

This is one of those days I'd like to forget.

[Nerwen]

Now, if he really wants to get killed, what would he do? Raise the awareness of the wolves, surely. The "wolf!" post was the first trial and the Dionysos thing was his second... but then he wanted to make sure he got the attention and went for that great idea of rangers doing double-shift... if they didn't get the hint from the earlier ones, the wolves should find him dangerous and thus kill him!
Mmmn. I have said this already, but it's not in the Cursed's interest to make extremely obvious hints. Why become a wolf if it means dying almost immediately? That doesn't prove Steve isn't the Cursed, but it would be clumsier playing than I'd expect of him.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Eönwë]

Now, if he really wants to get killed, what would he do? Raise the awareness of the wolves, surely. The "wolf!" post was the first trial and the Dionysos thing was his second... but then he wanted to make sure he got the attention and went for that great idea of rangers doing double-shift... if they didn't get the hint from the earlier ones, the wolves should find him dangerous and thus kill him!

Maybe he was waiting for more immediate feedback or just tried all his options as they came to him, I don't know. And obviously I'm not 100% sure about it, but it looks like it really all talks about the same thing. All those posts could be seen as ways to attract the wolves into killing him - and that's a lot from one person on one Day just randomly!

See! You can twist anything to make your point, but it doesn't make your point right.

[Nogrod]

for example his suspicion of me would mean I have to go against both my role and even the spirit of the game.Not at all... If you knew you were the cursed already in the beginning (as Glirdy said the cursed would know it) then it would be the most understandable leaning... some I know might have leaned with the village but I'm afraid most would have just died for getting to be a cursed wolf in the middle of the game...

And if the one knew it beforehand there would be no problem with the spirit of the game as the problem is in the rules...

[Boromir88]

I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4, so

++Eonwe

[Eönwë]

Not at all... If you knew you were the cursed already in the beginning (as Glirdy said the cursed would know it) then it would be the most understandable leaning... some I know might have leaned with the village but I'm afraid most would have just died for getting to be a cursed wolf in the middle of the game...

And if the one knew it beforehand there would be no problem with the spirit of the game as the problem is in the rules...

But isn't the Cursed meant to play on the side of the village until they become a wolf?

[Blind Guardian]

Yes! Yes! Two more votes for Eonwe! Please!

[Glirdan]

2 Minutes to DL

[the phantom]

Now here we disagree again - and it is nice to see you taking that up as I let that out from my final account of him to see would anyone else take it up and in what way would they do it.

Now, if he really wants to get killed, what would he do? Raise the awareness of the wolves, surely. The "wolf!" post was the first trial and the Dionysos thing was his second... but then he wanted to make sure he got the attention and went for that great idea of rangers doing double-shift... if they didn't get the hint from the earlier ones, the wolves should find him dangerous and thus kill him!

Maybe he was waiting for more immediate feedback or just tried all his options as they came to him, I don't know. And obviously I'm not 100% sure about it, but it looks like it really all talks about the same thing. All those posts could be seen as ways to attract the wolves into killing him - and that's a lot from one person on one Day just randomly!
His "wolf!" comment was throwaway. If we find out postgame that it wasn't I promise to eat some of that horrible black liquorice you Finns and Rune forced me to try.

His Dion comment was too obvious I think, and just an attempt to be in character.

And then you say he suggested something dangerous so as to be killed? You really think WWs are going to kill someone because he suggests one helpful thing? No, no- they'll be gunning for the Seer like always.

Not to mention if he's screaming "cursed" to the WWs he's just as likely to be the Ordo hoping for the WWs to flush their kill. You realize don't you that the Ordo in this game would be quite wise to sacrifice himself early to save all of his more powerful counterparts?

[Blind Guardian]

Vote Eonwe! Vote Eonwe!

[Eönwë]

I really don't want to, but it looks like I'm going to have to vote:

++Blind Guardian

It's too close. I'm sorry BG.

[Loslote]

Ehem. If we lynch Steve and Steve is innocent, may I suggest we look at Nog? If I recall correctly, he was all for not lynching Steve, but leaving him be and lynching him if the Cursed was turned. This would not only effectively silence a potential innocent threat, it would also provide an extra layer of protection for the real Cursed.

Not to say that I think this is exactly how it played out and that Steve's as innocent as snow, but he does make good points, and if we hadn't lynched Steve toDay, it would've been a really really good plan for wolf!Nog. Just throwin' that out there.

EDIT: xed with people...

[Nogrod]

it's not in the Cursed's interest to make extremely obvious hints. Why become a wolf if it means dying almost immediately? Like with the suspicions about yourself you're playing the one being wise afterwards... How did he know he would get that suspected about the things he ranted about early in the Day? Well, he didn't.

In many games those would have been ignored -and many of you seemed to be quite ready to ignire them to the end. So? Extremely obvious? No. Securely true? No.

[Nerwen]

++Nogrod

Yeah, it's a throwaway. I had to hold my vote in case I needed it, and now I'm not happy jumping on either bandwagon.

EDIT:x'd with numerous.

[Blind Guardian]

NO! I hate you!


That's not fair!

[Glirdan]

And that's TIME

STOP POSTING

[Glirdan]

With a total of 7 votes, BeiGei has been lynched.

Her role was Aphrodite, Goddess of Love and Beauty, thus making one Lover pair obsolete. With her death, nothing happens. Hephaestus may continue on his merry little way.

A proper narration will be up later throughout the Night.

As it stands now....

NIGHT 2 HAS BEGUN
Wolves may start PMing
Zeus and Hera may start PMing
Eros and Artemis may start PMing
Shirrifs may continue to PM


Wolves need to send me their kill
Seers need to send me their dreams
Persephone needs to send me their guess
Hestia needs to send me a name
Eros and Pan need to send me their protections
Artemis needs to send me their hunt

Will have the list of the live and dead with the death narration.

[Glirdan]

At the end of the Day, the Gods congregated once more in the Grand Chamber. There had been much speculating and discussion that day, almost enough to fill a short story with in fact.

Yet none of this seemed to appeal to Aphrodite...She seemed to be in a trance all day and did not show any sign of recognition, for anyone. She merely gazed up at the sky, starry-eyed and lost. Hercules tried to help her remember who she was and who Hephaestus was, but she just pushed him away. Athena and Artemis tried to engage her in a conversation on love, but she just brushed by them.

She just gazed, helpless up towards the heaven's, unsure of what to do. She went to her chambers to be alone...

It was not until everyone was settling in for the Night that they smelt it; fire coming from Aphrodite's room. Hercules, Athena and Artemis ran in but were too late...The fire had completely subsided, and all that was left were the burnt remains of Aphrodite (which was odd seeing as nothing could kill a God but another God), and most peculiar, a folded up piece of parchment in her hand. Hercules went to grab it, and her had turned to dust.

He unfolded the parchment and scribbled there, in blood was a broken heart...

Dead
Night 1 - Glirdan aka. Thanatos (Mod) - Scythe through the stomach
Day 1 - BeiGei aka. Aphrodite (Lover) - Suicide of a broken heart

Alive
Wilwa
Kath
Boro
Mira
Zil
Lottie
Eonwe
Nienna
Nerwen
Folwren
Tum
Lalaith
Greenie
Rikae
Shasta
Mac
Nog
Phantom
Sally

[Glirdan]

The dead of the Night brought no calm for some of the inhabitants of Mount Olympus.

Apollo was in a trance, trying to see who was who. Hermes could be seen flying around, trying to gain information for his Masters. Zeus and Hera were sealed away in their bed chamber, plotting who knows what. Athena and Pan were out patrolling the halls of Mount Olympus. Even Hestia was out that Night, up to who knows what.

Nowhere on Olympus was safe anymore...

IT IS STILL NIGHT 1
Persephone needs to send me a guess
Eros needs to send me a name to protect
The Wolves need to send me a kill

[Glirdan]

The coming of the dawn brought no good news for the Gods. As they assembled in the Grand Chamber, they did a headcount to see if anybody else was missing. It was not until Zeus asked about his messages that they noticed Hermes was missing. It was odd for him ever to be late, especially since he also happened to be one of the fastest Gods on Olympus and he made sure he had punctuality down to a T. Yet he did not arrive.

The Gods scoured the mountain, hoping they would find him napping somewhere. It was not until the all gathered in the grand chamber that they noticed something peculiar behind Zeus's throne; there were feet poking out from behind it. As they gathered closer, it was not the only thing they noticed. It was Hermes, dead, the wings from his shoes sticking from his eyes. His fist was clenched, as if he was holding on to a message of great importance, but there was no parchment in his hand.

The Gods dispersed, feeling more morose and afraid then before. Day 2 of the Twilight was upon them.

Dead
Night 1 - Glirdan aka. Thanatos (Mod) - Scythe through the stomach
Day 1 - BeiGei aka. Aphrodite (Lover) - Suicide of a broken heart
Night 2 - Boro aka. Hermes (Seer) - Wings through the eyes

Alive
Wilwa
Kath
Mira
Zil
Lottie
Eonwe
Nienna
Nerwen
Folwren
Tum
Lalaith
Greenie
Rikae
Shasta
Mac
Nog
Phantom
Sally

IT IS NOW DAY 2
Everyone but the Shirrifs need to stop PMing.

Everybody start posting.

[Loslote]

I would have posted this a lot sooner, but I think you know what I mean when I say that it took me a while to come up with a phrasing that did not get me modfired. :rolleyes: As it is, I will skip the "bugger" talk because there really is no polite way to say what I want to say, and let's have us a little list:

Innocent:
Lottie

More innocent than not:
Zil
Steve
Greenie
Nerwen
Rikae
Wilwa?

We all live in a yellow submarine and/or I've no clue:
Sally
Shasta
Nienna
Folwren
Lalaith
Kath
Mira
Phantom

I want to see dead because they are evil, precious, evil:
Tum
Nog
Mac?

If we lynch Tum, I would be very very happy. If we lynch Nog, I would be nearly as happy. If we lynch Mac, I would not argue against this. If we lynch anyone else, I would headdesk.

Side note: Due to an unfortunate and only just now realized conflict in schedules, I may or may not be around much. I'm going to go hike a mountain eight and a half hours before dl and won't be back until at most an hour and a half before dl...so yeah. Sorry 'bout that. I will almost certainly be able to vote. :(

[the phantom]

Well, one lover down, one Seer down.

I'm surprised at two things. First, that Boro said "seer" three times in his opening post, as well as used the words "see", "watch", and "glasses". I know Boro is bold and likes baiting the other side, but that's a bit much even for him. My leading suspicion of why he would make such remarks was that he was the lone Ordo and thought maybe he could attract a kill or better yet a Ranger save, or that he was cursed and wished to be turned.

The second thing that surprises me is that the Wolves did indeed shoot for him. Personally I would have been mighty paranoid that I was being tricked by old Boro.

Next question- which Seer was he, and who did he think had which role?

It's quite obvious that the beginning of his first post is full of hints (all of those buzzwords), and now we know that he wasn't kidding. But as far as naming his actual dream, the first post doesn't appear to fit the bill. The only player mentioned in the post is me, and he is quite noncommital with his placement of my loyalties-
One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.

Best just go with what he counsels unless it's, "lynch the seer."
So, he says that I could be on the side of the WWs, on the side of the Lovers, or on the side of Zeus. The fact that Zeus is redundant he explained later-
As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.
So what he was meaning was that I was either with the WWs, with the Lovers, or with the Village. Not particularly pointing in any direction. And in case it wasn't clear enough, later he said this-
Zeus has absolutely nothing to do with those intentions, you're looking at the wrong part.
Which to me says that the main bit we are supposed to take away from that first post is simply "Hey guys, I'm the Seer", and that the role and alignment talk was meaningless.

So moving onto other posts, does he give anything definitive? He mentions several people in a post a bit later, giving various levels of innocence and suspicion. The one who looks the most innocent is Nog-
I've got a fairly good feeling about Nog
Not terribly convincing I would say, but better than anything else in that post.

But then he makes a post later directed at Mira (aka Keeper) saying this-
Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.
Um... what? I have no clue what he's saying there, but it looks like he's up to something or other. Any thoughts Mira?

And finally there is his vote, which is the most definite negative thing he says about someone-
I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4, so

++ Eonwe
All in all I'd have to say this is the best I can come up with for his dream choice, because earlier speaking to BG he said this-
Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.
So, he defines his scale and says that anyone other than a WW would rate some level of hurt on the scale, and then when he votes against Eonwe he rates him at a negative four, meaning that it would not hurt us to lose him.

So, given those two facts-
1) Losing anyone other than a WW would rate somewhere 1 to 10
2) Losing Eonwe would NOT rate somewhere 1 to 10

Eonwe = Wolf

So, in the end, that's my best guess at his Seer dream. But of course we don't know if he's the real Seer or not. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

There. I've done my Boro read-through. Now can I finally go to bed?

[Nerwen]

20/20 hindsight says this was a hint to Hephaestus:
I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. :) Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?
Question is, did Hephaestus pick it up?

Well, one lover down, one Seer down.

I'm surprised at two things. First, that Boro said "seer" three times in his opening post, as well as used the words "see", "watch", and "glasses". I know Boro is bold and likes baiting the other side, but that's a bit much even for him. My leading suspicion of why he would make such remarks was that he was the lone Ordo and thought maybe he could attract a kill or better yet a Ranger save, or that he was cursed and wished to be turned.

The second thing that surprises me is that the Wolves did indeed shoot for him. Personally I would have been mighty paranoid that I was being tricked by old Boro.
Maybe that's it: he hoped to double-bluff them into thinking "Oh, it's just Boro pulling our legs, as usual".

Alternatively, he might have been very confident of being protected last Night. You'd think he'd be afraid the Ranger and Hunting Guardian would assume he was bluffing too– as was the case, it seems.

But then he makes a post later directed at Mira (aka Keeper) saying this-
Originally Posted by Boro
Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.

Um... what? I have no clue what he's saying there, but it looks like he's up to something or other. Any thoughts Mira?
Well, since you've drawn attention to it: it looks like he thought she had one of the protective roles– but if so, why put her in jeopardy like that? Or was he hoping to trick the wolves into thinking he was indeed a hinting Lover?

And finally there is his vote, which is the most definite negative thing he says about someone-

All in all I'd have to say this is the best I can come up with for his dream choice, because earlier speaking to BG he said this-

So, he defines his scale and says that anyone other than a WW would rate some level of hurt on the scale, and then when he votes against Eonwe he rates him at a negative four, meaning that it would not hurt us to lose him.

So, given those two facts-
1) Losing anyone other than a WW would rate somewhere 1 to 10
2) Losing Eonwe would NOT rate somewhere 1 to 10

Eonwe = Wolf

So, in the end, that's my best guess at his Seer dream. But of course we don't know if he's the real Seer or not. :rolleyes:
He might have been simply talking about the Eonwe-Dionysus business.
The fact that the wolves went ahead and killed him doesn't look too good for Steve, however. (Although, I suppose it could also point to wolves who haven't played with Boro much before, and just took his double-bluff, if that's what it was, at face value.)

[A Little Green]

Whoa. I kind of like coming here with a lot to say.. I'll start with Boro. Phantom's theory is interesting. The first thing that popped into my mind upon finding out that Boro was one of the Seers was that he dreamed Phantom was Hera. Why? I figured that "allied to the almighty Zeus" or however he phrased it would mean Hera, and he was talking about phantom at the time. (And please folks, don't club me in the head for thinking too simply. Not yet, at least.) But why would a Boroseer who has found a wolf a) make such obvious references to being a Seer and still b) leave such vague but obvious hints as to who the wolf is? Now if phantom indeed is Hera, the wolves will have spotted that immediately and done off with Boro (who they pretty much have now pinned down as the real Seer). But the thing is, Boro will have known this would happen if he makes such blatant hints and happens to be in fact the real Seer. So I'm thinking - maybe he did that on purpose, to see if the wolves attacked him - because if (or rather, when) they did, it would almost prove that they caught his hint, ergo phantom is proven to be a wolf.

Now, my theory, obviously, has a couple of flaws. The first and most obvious one is that Boro could have been the false seer (who still did the same or some different scheme), and the wolves just picked on the Seer hints. The second flaw is that I have no way of knowing exactly what Boro had in mind and could be way off the wall with this entire thing. Just something to think about. (I'm not even sure if I managed to write it in a way that makes the slightest bit of sense..)

I'll be back with some thoughts on yesterDay.


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

[Lalaith]

Interesting ideas about Boro. I missed the Mira/Keeper comment that phantom picked up on, it's ambiguous to say the least. As for my thoughts - reading over the thread yesterday, I thought I had picked up on Hunter hints from Boro.

Wilwa and Mac know better, if they're wolves to try and pick a fight and lynch me this early, because they know I wouldn't go down easily and in the veyr least if I died they would follow. Wilwa I like slightly more than Greenie in all of it.


In hindsight, it is of course good Seer tactics to pretend to be a Hunter. But would any of the above-named, if indeed they were wolves, seemingly being threatened, have risked a Boro kill?

[A Little Green]

Now, the Eonwe-Dionysus-thing bothered me. For the first thing, I think people (namely Nog and Lottie, but also others) were/are over-eager to pin him down as Dionysus, based on arguments that don't hold water. Like Eonwe himself pointed out, the cursed is on the village's side until they are turned, ie. they should have no reason whatsoever to hint at the wolves in the first place, let alone as openly as Eonwe did if you read his posts as hints.And if the one knew it beforehand there would be no problem with the spirit of the game as the problem is in the rules... I totally disagree with this, but I think we're slipping to general rules discussion again if I start ranting about it.. :rolleyes: Just to be fair, though, I might not agree with Nog's logic but I don't agree with Eonwe's, either:
Much too obvious, as I said. And because he's sticking to this so much, maybe Nogrod's a wolf who's trying to double-bluff by suggesting that I'm the Cursed so that if it turns out that I am, he could seem like he was trying to help the village, while totally distancing himself from the wolves (who would probably try to keep it quiet). In fact, maybe this whole thing is something Nogrod decided to latch onto because doing this would make him seem so un-wolvish.I wouldn't pin Nog down as wolvish, but rather as staying up way too late. He was behaving in an illogical way and pursuing the Eonwe thing way too much, but I'm not convinced it points to furriness. Eonwe's jump on him is understandable but I'm not sure about the validity of the argument. I'll rant some more on Nogrod in posts to come, I think.

As for Eonwe being a wolf Boroseer hinted at - I'm not sure. Could be, of course, but he doesn't strike me as particularly suspicious. Of course Boro could have hinted at him and just been the false Seer, or then he was the real Seer, dreamed of Eonwe, and I'm off my rocker. Argh. I could reread Eonwe I suppose, but then again, if I have the time to reread someone I'd prefer to try someone who escapes the genreal notice and isn't talked about all that much.

A rant about the voting yesterDay coming up!


EDIT: x-ed with Lalaith

[Nerwen]

In hindsight, it is of course good Seer tactics to pretend to be a Hunter. But would any of the above-named, if indeed they were wolves, seemingly being threatened, have risked a Boro kill?
Yes, it's an interesting little knot. Normally, you'd think the wolves would be safe in assuming it was a bluff– but then it seems they took his equally blatant Seer-hints seriously.

EDIT:X'd with Greenie.

[the phantom]

Greenie- your theory about Boro pointing to me as Hera has two major flaws.

I'll start with the obvious one- I'm not Hera. Now, you may say he is the false Seer and spotted me as Hera, or that I am lying, but that's where flaw number two comes in- the flaw that is the most obvious and provable to the rest of the village-

Boro himself negated the idea.

Boro made a point of saying that his "allied with Zeus" comment was a mistake (he had thought of Zeus as being allied with the good guys), plus he said later not to bother looking at the "Zeus" parts of his statement, as those parts were not important to his intentions.

I gave those quotes and examined them in my first post today if you'd like to read them.

[A Little Green]

Since no one has done this yet, here's the total voting tally from yesterDay.

Folwren --> Eonwe
Greenie --> Mac
Kath --> BeiGei
Lalaith --> Boro
Zil --> BeiGei 2
Nienna --> Eonwe 2
Sally --> BeiGei 3
Nog --> Nerwen
Wilwa --> BeiGei 4
Mira --> BeiGei 5
Rikae --> the phantom
Mc --> Nerwen 2
BeiGei --> Zil
Shasta --> Eonwe 3
Lottie --> Eonwe 4
Tum --> BeiGei 6
Boro --> Eonwe 5
Eonwe --> BeiGei 7
Nerwen --> Nogrod

My thoughts? Two bandwagons, neither of which was actually based on who people find wolvish. (The main argument against BG, from what I saw, was that she doesn't participate, against Eonwe that people think he is the cursed.) I don't like that at all. I mean, what's wrong with the good old practise of lynching people we think might be wolves? :rolleyes: Another thing I'll do if I have time: look through all the voting posts and check the reasons behind the votes. Not all BG voters voted her because they didn't approve of her style, and not all Eonwe voters voted him because they thought he was Dionysus. Also, there was some fishy stuff in the non-bandwagonish votes too.


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen and phantom

[Nerwen]

Phantom's theory is interesting. The first thing that popped into my mind upon finding out that Boro was one of the Seers was that he dreamed Phantom was Hera. Why? I figured that "allied to the almighty Zeus" or however he phrased it would mean Hera, and he was talking about phantom at the time. (And please folks, don't club me in the head for thinking too simply. Not yet, at least.) But why would a Boroseer who has found a wolf a) make such obvious references to being a Seer and still b) leave such vague but obvious hints as to who the wolf is? Now if phantom indeed is Hera, the wolves will have spotted that immediately and done off with Boro (who they pretty much have now pinned down as the real Seer). But the thing is, Boro will have known this would happen if he makes such blatant hints and happens to be in fact the real Seer. So I'm thinking - maybe he did that on purpose, to see if the wolves attacked him - because if (or rather, when) they did, it would almost prove that they caught his hint, ergo phantom is proven to be a wolf.
I hadn't thought of that. It might explain Boro's odd phrasing, with all three "alliances" being basically the same thing.

However, against the possibility of Boro's having dreamed a wolf at all is this:

If you're the Seer, and you want to know whether you're the genuine article, you can find out by the death of someone you dreamed. Yes, there's a possibility you might still be the False Seer, right by chance, but that's very small at this stage. (It increases as the village shrinks, but that's all the more reason to get cracking). Therefore, if you dreamed a baddie, it makes sense for you to push hard for his-or-her lynching. Now, Boro made no real effort to get the phantom, or indeed anyone, lynched (his comments on Steve came very late in the Day). Therefore I should say that he probably didn't dream a wolf.

...Except that I so far haven't come up with any satisfying explanation for what Boro did yesterDay. So maybe I shouldn't be counting on him making sense, according to my lights.

EDIT:X'd since last post; added comment.

[A Little Green]

Greenie- your theory about Boro pointing to me as Hera has two major flaws.

I'll start with the obvious one- I'm not Hera. Now, you may say he is the false Seer and spotted me as Hera, or that I am lying, but that's where flaw number two comes in- the flaw that is the most obvious and provable to the rest of the village-

Boro himself negated the idea.

Boro made a point of saying that his "allied with Zeus" comment was a mistake (he had thought of Zeus as being allied with the good guys), plus he said later not to bother looking at the "Zeus" parts of his statement, as those parts were not important to his intentions.

I gave those quotes and examined them in my first post today if you'd like to read them.Weren't you supposed to go to bed?

I did read those quotes. But 1) I stated, quite clearly I think, that the theory was "The first thing that popped into my mind upon finding out that Boro was one of the Seers", and at that point I didn't remember those quotes (and even after reading them I wanted to share what my initial thought was) 2) I'm not entirely convinced that he couldn't have negated the idea because of some scheme or other, 3) having once in my life created a theory of some kind I wanted to share it :p, 4) I thought the way you nicely skipped the idea that Boro was hinting at you was fishy, and 5) I wanted to see how you react to me presenting such a theory. Enough?


EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen

[the phantom]

Quickly, on the voting-

BG was too obvious a target to lynch on Day 1 to actually hold it against anyone who did it. If it weren't for the fact that I'd never played with her before I imagine I would've voted that direction too. I mean, it was Day 1 after all. You know- the day that everyone complains is random. If you have a chance to off a player that is playing in a way that you feel won't help the village, Day 1 is the perfect time for it.

That isn't to say those voters are off my list of suspicion, just that the vote itself will not tip the scales in my book.

Unless I am correct about Boro dreaming Eonwe as a WW, in which case I would say Tum's vote is the one that might stand out (but obviously we would not want to lynch her on those grounds before deciding whether or not Steve is guilty).

[Lalaith]

Is it just Europeans around right now?
Greenie, like you I was unimpressed by the BG voters - to me she was newbie-ish, not wolf-ish - but but there were seven of them and they can't all be wolves. It was an easy first-day option for innocents and wolves alike, I guess. The Eonwe bandwaggon I have more sympathy with, as there was some reasoning behind it.

My own rationale for voting Boro was that I thought that something was up with him, he was trying to attract attention to himself. For want of any better ideas about anyone else, I wanted to see if anyone would defend him. (His Hunteresque comment came after I went to bed)

Reading through the thread, I am finding Mac, Wilwa, Loslote and Nogrod (before it got too late, that is...!) looking helpful.
I am finding Keeper/Mira, Sally and autume rather strange.

In other news, I think these 7am (GMT) deadlines are going to be difficult for the handful of us on this side of the Atlantic. Most of the discussion/events of the Day seem to happen after we vote and go to bed...

[Lalaith]

Ah, Phantom is still here, sorry for implying you were European. :cool:

[A Little Green]

Just to finish commenting on stuff people said yesterDay after I went to sleep.
Also, if she is a wolf I doubt Rikae or/and Mac is one. And that would give us one or two people we could more or less trust, at least in the first Days.Could you explain this? I don't follow your logic I'm afraid.
I really want Tum lynched; I'm fairly sure she's a wolf.
I want Mac lynched; he seems furry.Do you have reasons for these, or are they just gut-feelings? The following is what I found for your suspicion of Mac:Mac - feels slightly off in all his posts, and isn't really making many helpful posts. Might vote for him.I don't like that logic (insofar as saying someone is "feeling slightly off" includes a logic), especially as I think it appeared only after I voiced some suspicion about Mac. The same goes for Nog, actually - the way he jumped on my suspicion of Mac was fishy and quite uncharacteristical of him. (Usually he doesn't trust a word I say!) It made me think worse of him and better of Mac, actually.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom and 2x Lal

[the phantom]

Weren't you supposed to go to bed?
Unfortunately I screwed myself up a bit to stay up to the deadline, and I guess I did too good a job. Bleh. I'm going to regret these hours tomorrow.
I thought the way you nicely skipped the idea that Boro was hinting at you was fishy
Up until this comment you were doing just fine, but this statement makes me suspect you're pushing a bit.

How can you possibly say I SKIPPED it when I fully examined his first post and his mention of me right from the beginning? Did you read my post? I said quite clearly that it was time to examine who he dreamed of, and stated that I am the only person mentioned in his first post, and then proceeded to quote his first post as well as two other statements he made regarding that post. I did not skip his mention of me. Not by a long shot, and you implying that I did seems like you're just trying to stir something up.

The fact is, given what he said in the post and his explanations about the post later he was definitely not giving a remotely clear idea of affiliation, and so I said so and moved on.

In a later post he mentions you, saying, "Greenie looks more or less ok". That statement I actually did skip. Why aren't you accusing me of skipping that quote?
Ah, Phantom is still here, sorry for implying you were European.
It's okay. It's slightly better than being called a Canadian. :p

[A Little Green]

Greenie, like you I was unimpressed by the BG voters - to me she was newbie-ish, not wolf-ish - but but there were seven of them and they can't all be wolves. It was an easy first-day option for innocents and wolves alike, I guess. I know. The thing is, such easy bandwagons are tricky just because they are an easy option for an innocent, and a nice hiding-place for a wolf. Also, they are unlikely to catch us a wolf. While I know that the chances of catching a wolf on Day 1 are very slim, I'd prefer that it was at least tried.
In other news, I think these 7am (GMT) deadlines are going to be difficult for the handful of us on this side of the Atlantic. Most of the discussion/events of the Day seem to happen after we vote and go to bed...Yeah, it's annoying. The DL is 9 am for me, which is pretty much the worst possible. Possibly, later on in the game, I'll try going to bed really early and then getting up around six to play for the last minutes (after reading a host of pages first).


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[Nerwen]

Ah, Phantom is still here, sorry for implying you were European. :cool:
Also, I am still here.:p

Just to finish commenting on stuff people said yesterDay after I went to sleep.
Originally Posted by Nog, about Nerwen
Also, if she is a wolf I doubt Rikae or/and Mac is one. And that would give us one or two people we could more or less trust, at least in the first Days.
Could you explain this? I don't follow your logic I'm afraid.
I suppose he means that Mac was after me, and Rikae defending Mac... but that's weirdly naive reasoning, from an experienced player.

[the phantom]

Also, I am still here.
But wait, aren't you Austrian?
*snicker*

[A Little Green]

Up until this comment you were doing just fine, but this statement makes me suspect you're pushing a bit.

How can you possibly say I SKIPPED it when I fully examined his first post and his mention of me right from the beginning? Did you read my post? I said quite clearly that it was time to examine who he dreamed of, and stated that I am the only person mentioned in his first post, and then proceeded to quote his first post as well as two other statements he made regarding that post. I did not skip his mention of me. Not by a long shot, and you implying that I did seems like you're just trying to stir something up.

The fact is, given what he said in the post and his explanations about the post later he was definitely not giving a remotely clear idea of affiliation, and so I said so and moved on.Awh, apparently "skipped" was the wrong choice of words. What I meant was not that you deliberately failed to mention Boro's mention of you (which you didn't do, which anyone who is able to read could see easily enough, so trying to mislead people by that would be pretty stupid). What I meant was simply that you discarded the possibility rather easily. You had an argument for it, I grant you (the fact that Boro himself denied any hint in those words about you and Zeus), but I'm not entirely conviced by it. Just for the record, though, I'm not entirely convinced about my own theory, either. :rolleyes:
In a later post he mentions you, saying, "Greenie looks more or less ok". That statement I actually did skip. Why aren't you accusing me of skipping that quote?Because a) I didn't remember the existence of that quote, and b) I don't think it's very relevant if the issue is who Boro might have dreamed of. I mean, who would make a seer hint and say someone looks more or less ok? Just asking.


EDIT: x.ed with Nerwen and phantom

[A Little Green]

I suppose he means that Mac was after me, and Rikae defending Mac... but that's weirdly naive reasoning, from an experienced player.I agree - especially given that you, Mac and Rikae are the sort of players who would have no problem with openly accusing or defending their mates, and Nog knows this well enough. Hmm. He baffles me a lot, but I'm not sure if it's because he's evil. After all, he was staying up until 9 am (weirdo!) which might explain some of the strange reasoning, and after all there are many roles in this game that might cause someone to act strangely.

[the phantom]

apparently "skipped" was the wrong choice of words... What I meant was simply that you discarded the possibility rather easily.
Ah, well then, all I can say to that is that I was attempting to examine Boro's posts fully and accurately. As you said yourself, "You had an argument for it, I grant you". Given the direct quotes the case seemed rather clear cut to me, so yes, I discarded it quite easily. You can say you're not entirely convinced by Boro's explanations about his first post (which is what my entire position is based upon), but if you're not going to believe what Boro said, why in the world would you suspect someone based upon his words?

And you needn't have answered my comment about what Boro said regarding you. I was just being petty and sarcastic. I thought it appropriate since I knew coming into the game you were wondering if, after meeting me in RL, you would find me more or less tolerable.

Okay... I think I'm feeling tired enough to fall asleep now. See you in about five hours.

[A Little Green]

You can say you're not entirely convinced by Boro's explanations about his first post (which is what my entire position is based upon), but if you're not going to believe what Boro said, why in the world would you suspect someone based upon his words?Where, in any of my posts, can you see me actually suspecting someone based upon Boro's words? :p

And you needn't have answered my comment about what Boro said regarding you. I was just being petty and sarcastic. I thought it appropriate since I knew coming into the game you were wondering if, after meeting me in RL, you would find me more or less tolerable.So you decided to make sure it would be less? Great logic, dear.

[Lalaith]

Oh, I just wanted to remind everyone, in case they had forgotten, that today the Mythomane comes into play. Potentially. Although given the number of gifteds in this game, the chance of him/her picking something that makes a difference is pretty high.

[satansaloser2005]

Tum[/B], I would be very very happy. If we lynch Nog, I would be nearly as happy. If we lynch Mac, I would not argue against this. If we lynch anyone else, I would headdesk.

So why's that then? I mean....have I missed something?


Well, one lover down, one Seer down.

This particular phrasing makes me think one word. WOLF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I like how he looks at Boro and his....stuff. (It's early. Hush.)


There. I've done my Boro read-through. Now can I finally go to bed?

Snerk.


But wait, aren't you Austrian?
*snicker*

See the last post I quoted. Fool child. :smokin:


Oh, I just wanted to remind everyone, in case they had forgotten, that today the Mythomane comes into play. Potentially. Although given the number of gifteds in this game, the chance of him/her picking something that makes a difference is pretty high.

Wait. Isn't it toMorrow? Like they pick toNight and change toMorrow? Sorry, I guess I'll have to check the rules (again) to be sure.

Also, here's a question (that I'll copy paste over to the admin thread). Let's say Boro was the true seer. Let's also say that Agan (picking her for obvious reasons, since she's not playing or anything) is the false seer. Mytho Mith (again, same reason) picks Agan. Does she become the false seer or another true seer? I assume the former, but that's not really fair to the village. *pouts* I'm confuzzled, and I miss my Boro. :(

[Nogrod]

What a Day1! I think it was worth every minute. Heh, the more I play, the more I seem to begin liking that kind of involved Day1's. There should be leads enough to make some fairly decent observations from toDay (I'll try to occupy myself with that later on).

Just a few quick ones for now.

So why did the wolves go for Boro? The most straightforward explanation would be that he hit a nerve and the wolves had to act immediately. The problem with seer-hints - from the wolf-perspective - is that you can't ignore them even if you know killing that person might disrepute one or more of you, if the one posing as the seer has it right, that is.

That in turn would mean that there should have been a clear enough seer-hint with clear enough guilt shown for someone who actually is a wolf. Which would actually be Eonwë There would go my theory of him being Dionysos which I have to admit I rather like still - and actually (and hopefully) he was the false seer, so it is still possible I'm right with Eonwë. But that we shall not know until later.

The other thing is, were the wolves killing him because of the seer hints? I mean now after the fact it's more or less easy to say "ahh, right youy are, he was hinting to be the seer!", but I must admit at least I missed them completely yesterDay. It's also possible they killed him just because they knew he can be very good and he was fairly well trusted (at least not suspected enough to get easily lynched)?


On another issue. I still think my theory about Eonwë is quite plausible, whatever you say. The rules say only: Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks.There is no remark on any loyalties he should or should not have and thus leaves it quite open for Dionysos to choose himself his loyalties (we don't know what Glirdan wrote in his role-PM to him of course).

Now knowing how so many people think that playing a wolf is the coolest thing one can do in Werewolf it's not that far-fetched to think someone being the cursed - and knowing it - would really desire for actually getting to be a wolf. That's why I agree with Rikae that the cursed should not know he is a cursed as it kind of makes him quite easily a cobbleresque-character not having the best of the village in mind but his own wolf-carreer in mind. That's why I said it is a problem with the rules.


Third one. Also, if she is a wolf I doubt Rikae or/and Mac is one. And that would give us one or two people we could more or less trust, at least in the first Days.
Could you explain this? I don't follow your logic I'm afraid.
I suppose he means that Mac was after me, and Rikae defending Mac... but that's weirdly naive reasoning, from an experienced player.It was not so much reasoning in any strong sense but a feeling that was based on few things. With Mac it was more or less not so much him suspecting Nerwen but Nerwen's attack on him that made me think they probably are not on the same side (cannot be proved and wolves can do that, to be sure), with Rikae it was the fact that I generally started to think her more innocent than not as the Day grew older, her excellent pick on Nerwen trying to influence the ideas of Zeus' alignments and the general feeling between Rikae and Mac not actually knowing each other's role (=not wolves then, at least the two of them). Therefore - mind you - I only said we could "more or less" trust, at least "a few Days".


Back to other things later on...

[satansaloser2005]

Announcement: THIS WAS TO BE POSTED YESTERDAY. I was having trouble with my nets and (as mentioned) was exhausted, so when the net died again after I voted I just went to sleep. However, I don't think it'd be fair to not share my thoughts, even though they've obviously changed. I have to go to work now, so I won't be able to update a lot, but these were my feelings as of my vote time yesterDay. It's not all that much, but it's unedited and straight from my Word. Have at it. (Oh, and I'l be back in a few hours to creep while I'm at lunch, hopefully.)



I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

edit: x-ed with Foley. And I like that spelling mistake, so I'm not going to change it.

That freaking made my day. ^_^


Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.

Erm, sweetie, everyone has a special role of some kind. I don’t know, but I found this statement a bit weird. (But Phantom, clueless? Obviously.)


I am under the distinct impression that everyone in this game has some sort of 'special role'.

I suggest that we NOT lynch Phantom, as he has not said anything remarkably ridiculous this game. There are much better candidates for killing so far.

And once more, I am uncertain of people's playing styles, but I don't understand why one would let the first thing out of their mouth be, "Frankly, I'd rather just lynch the seer." It might just be your style, Rikae, but it sounds rather dangerous to me.

It’s Rikae. She always does that. *pets her* Well Phantom will always at one point or another come up with something “remarkably ridiculous” as you put it. But yeah, I’m not wanting to lynch him toDay. At the moment he seems like scheming Phantom, not scheming wolftom.

Also, yay Foley! *squishes you*


Well, Wilwa's post was at least an attempt at clarification so thanks for that. I have no idea what Sally's on about though - what's this plethora of ordness of which you speak?

Nothing. I just know that there are ordos (or close enough to them) because I am one and I’m not the ordo.


Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I can't really think of a good solution:

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

What we normally do. We see if their dreams are legit (unless they say they’ve dreamt the false seer, of course) and if they are, we at least leave them alive. If their dreams are false, however, we’ll....well, we’ll have to cross that bloody bridge when we come to it, I suppose.

I really don’t want a seer reveal this game. It’d make my head asplode. >.<


She's not here. I say in these cases just count the vote since the voter doesn't have a chance to correct it.

I’m glad the mod god has your support in his decision. Heh. That’s Glirdan’s decision, but thanks for the input.

Actually, I bring this up because I think it’s interesting that she supports Steve’s lynch so....I don’t know, heartily? *blinks* Not the word I was looking for, but I’m really sleepy so it’ll do. (Grar, sleep deprivation.) Anyway, she’s asserting her opinion here, which....whatever, but the way she says it makes me think there’s another motivation for making Foley’s vote count.

Here’s a thought. I’m typing this without net so I’m not sure it’s relevant, but did Foley say she was going to be gone? Because if not, how did BG know? Iiiinteresting. (Just a thought. Meh.)


May we put a freeze on posts for about an hour so I can keep up? Yeesh.

THIS.


Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink."

Either or. *snerk* The thing is, why would the cursed run around parading themselves? They’ve got a better chance of winning with the village than they do if they’re turned, so I don’t think it would be very prudent for the cursed to run a streak around the place calling out their role. Or is it just me? *blinks* I don’t know, but I think there’s something else going on there. (Either that or Steve’s just being silly.) I’m of course all for the wolf playing cobbler (or vice versa) theory, but if Steve is cursed I don’t understand why he’d act like this (unless he wants to be lynched before he’s even turned). Regular wolf who’s cursed hunting, sure, but cursed no.


I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. :) Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Xed with everyone since 134

So I have to ask the inevitable (if a bit rude, for which I apologize) question. You’ve been reading and that’s all you have to say?



Crackpot theory of the Day? I’m rather convinced that BG is a wolf who is trying to sacrifice either an innocent Steve or has picked up on a cobbler Steve. (By the way, if it’s the second one, the last post I quoted was a really poor ploy, but I know she’s new so I’m considering it a definite possibility.) First she weighs in on whether or not Foley’s vote should count (which itself isn’t weird, but her tone seems off to me) and then she makes this completely random post about drinking and being French (dude, someone translate that for me please....Dun?) and blah blah that ends with Steve being Dionysus. Which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. But I think BG is making very little sense and either trying to hint back to her wolves, trying to get her cobbler deaded (which makes the most sense to me), or just taking somebody down to save her own furry little skin. Either way, a wolf she is, a wolf she be, she looks just like a wolf to me.

[Macalaure]

Don't they teach little seers in elementary school not to make jokes about seers in their first post? Now Boro is dead. :rolleyes:

I had a look at his posts. I agree with phantom that Boro probably didn't try to hint us his alignment. (Unless he dreamt of him, found him a non-wolf, and fooled around with him a little to try to guess whether the role he dreamt of was correct.) His hint to Keeper is strange. There's a ton of things he could have thought she was and I don't understand how he got to suspect any of them. I don't think he tried to hint an Eonwe-wolf to us. Other than the -4-comment he only mentioned him once, telling us that we're talking about him enough. Now, if I knew the identity of a wolf, that's not what I'd tell people to do.

[Eönwë]

Eonwe = Wolf

So, in the end, that's my best guess at his Seer dream.
If this is true, then I have good news for the village: the True Seer is still alive. And if this is the case, we now we have the same situation as usual, which is good. But if I wasn't his Night 1 dream (which seems more likely to me), the remaining Seer may be false. But at least now they have time to come out openly about it. Of course, it may be complicated if the Mythomaniac chose to take Boro's role, because that would mean that we're in the same situation as before, with one true and one false Seer.

Well, since you've drawn attention to it: it looks like he thought she had one of the protective roles– but if so, why put her in jeopardy like that? Or was he hoping to trick the wolves into thinking he was indeed a hinting Lover?
It doesn't actually matter. Whatever role she has (other than hunter), picking him would benefit the village.

He might have been simply talking about the Eonwe-Dionysus business.
The fact that the wolves went ahead and killed him doesn't look too good for Steve, however.
So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?

Also, here's a question (that I'll copy paste over to the admin thread). Let's say Boro was the true seer. Let's also say that Agan (picking her for obvious reasons, since she's not playing or anything) is the false seer. Mytho Mith (again, same reason) picks Agan. Does she become the false seer or another true seer? I assume the former, but that's not really fair to the village.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

edit: x-ed with after Sally's first.

[Lalaith]

Mytho Mith (again, same reason) picks Agan. Does she become the false seer or another true seer?
Yes I wondered that too. Also, if a Lover is picked, do they become a menage a trois? :eek:

[Nerwen]

That in turn would mean that there should have been a clear enough seer-hint with clear enough guilt shown for someone who actually is a wolf. Which would actually be Eonwë There would go my theory of him being Dionysos which I have to admit I rather like still - and actually (and hopefully) he was the false seer, so it is still possible I'm right with Eonwë. But that we shall not know until later.
See my post here (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=635202&postcount=312) for why I don't think Boro dreamed a wolf. (Although, note that this is all according to my logic, and Boro, clearly, has his own.)

The other thing is, were the wolves killing him because of the seer hints? I mean now after the fact it's more or less easy to say "ahh, right youy are, he was hinting to be the seer!", but I must admit at least I missed them completely yesterDay.
Okay... I thought they were pretty much impossible to miss yesterDay; I thought he was probably bluffing, though.

On another issue. I still think my theory about Eonwë is quite plausible, whatever you say. The rules say only: There is no remark on any loyalties he should or should not have and thus leaves it quite open for Dionysos to choose himself his loyalties (we don't know what Glirdan wrote in his role-PM to him of course).

Now knowing how so many people think that playing a wolf is the coolest thing one can do in Werewolf it's not that far-fetched to think someone being the cursed - and knowing it - would really desire for actually getting to be a wolf.
Well, some people do play it like that– Agan did when she was a Cursed who knew her role, ages ago. An awfully risky tactic though. I'm not sure I'd try it.

Third one. It was not so much reasoning in any strong sense but a feeling that was based on few things. With Mac it was more or less not so much him suspecting Nerwen but Nerwen's attack on him that made me think they probably are not on the same side (cannot be proved and wolves can do that, to be sure)

I presume this (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=634968&postcount=159) is what you're talking about? I happen to know it isn't wolf-on-wolf, but even I can see how it could easily look that way. It's fairly cautious and lukewarm, whereas Mac's attack on me was a good deal more definite.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at here... maybe just that you seem to be interpreting everything in the exact opposite way to me.

her excellent pick on Nerwen trying to influence the ideas of Zeus' alignments
Mind jogging my memory as to what my fiendish goal was at that point?:rolleyes:

So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?
Don't be silly, Steve. A dreamed wolf has to be written off anyway– and I think most packs would consider it worth the risk.

Ha, that's such a dodgy argument! Maybe I should be worried about you after all...

[Rikae]

Erm, sweetie, everyone has a special role of some kind. I don’t know, but I found this statement a bit weird. (But Phantom, clueless? Obviously.)

Wow, that was a really absurd comment I made, then, wasn't it? So much so that someone (although not you or Folwren, apparently) might even conclude that it was a joke!
;)

So, I would say the reasoning that Boro must have coupled his seer-hints with an (accidental or not) correct suspicion seems the most plausible. Someone mentioned wolves that hadn't played with him before, but I'm hard pressed to think of four people in the village who aren't familiar with Boro, and as Nog pointed out, his seer hints would have looked like a very likely bluff. There seems to be a good case that Boro didn't really behave as if he had found a wolf (in either Steve or Phantom), but remember - hinting correctly and thus tipping off the wolves wouldn't necessarily mean dreaming of one of them; some of them know their lovers' roles as well. I'm going to have to go over Boro's posts again with this in mind.
Although another thing that occurs to me is that Boro paired his seer-hints with hunter-hints, something he wouldn't do if he were actually the hunter - it would be counterproductive. So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all. Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)

[Rikae]

Although another thing that occurs to me is that Boro paired his seer-hints with hunter-hints, something he wouldn't do if he were actually the hunter - it would be counterproductive. So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all.

To clarify the above - maybe the wolves concluded he wasn't bluffing because of his combination of seer and hunter hints.

[Rikae]

Also, why is Nerwen arguing that her suspicions of Mac weren't wolf-on-wolf, when that's what Nog said in the first place? Weird...

[Inziladun]

Well, interesting stuff. Boro's Seer hints appear to have gotten more overt late in the Day, yet he still wasn't throwing a great deal of suspicion on anyone.

Eonwe and Lalaith feel a little less good, Eonwe's been talked enough and Lalaith, while I feel the most wary about her clinging to my Zeus post for her vote. It's too crappy of a feeling to vote for her, 'specially since she's this is her first time back in a while. Need more time on her.

Puts Lal and steve basically in the same category, looking "less good", but not very pointed toward either.

Which makes the sudden vote for Eönwë, and his reasoning for it, a little jarring.

I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4, so

++Eonwe

"'Neg' 4"? Meaning not at all valuable to the village. It's at odds with what Boro said previously. I have to think if Eönwë had been Boro's dream he would have been more aggressive with his accusations, especially when there had already been some suspicion (and votes) for him. Yet we have the "Neg 4", which seems rather emphatic. :confused:

I really want Tum lynched; I'm fairly sure she's a wolf.

Do you have reasons for these, or are they just gut-feelings?

Lottie was pointing at tum yesterDay.

BeiGei voters - especially the later ones - really really need to be looked at toMorrow. I'd say most especially Tum, but that's just personal suspicion.

And kept it up toDay.

I want to see dead because they are evil, precious, evil:
Tum
Nog
Mac?

If we lynch Tum, I would be very very happy. If we lynch Nog, I would be nearly as happy. If we lynch Mac, I would not argue against this. If we lynch anyone else, I would headdesk.

I've only skimmed what happened after I went to bed Day 1, but if I'd been around, I probably would have voted for tum myself. I want to go back and look at what all she said.

x/d with Rikae x 3

[Nerwen]

So perhaps he didn't correctly point to a baddie, after all. Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)
He could have been the False Seer and have pointed to a baddie– the two aren't mutually exclusive.

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Rikae.

[Nerwen]

Also, why is Nerwen arguing that her suspicions of Mac weren't wolf-on-wolf, when that's what Nog said in the first place? Weird...

I guess I didn't make that clear. I'm saying that though my suspicions weren't wolf-on-wolf, I can't see why Nogrod was so sure they weren't– sure enough to conclude that Mac and I couldn't be packmates, in fact. Does that make more sense?

[Rikae]

He could have been the False Seer and have pointed to a baddie– the two aren't mutually exclusive.

EDIT:X'd with Zil and Rikae.

He could have, but to actually pinpoint the role (say, Phantom=Hera or Steve=the cursed) would be very unlikely.

[Nerwen]

He could have, but to actually pinpoint the role (say, Phantom=Hera or Steve=the cursed) would be very unlikely.
It would indeed be very unlikely that, by mere accident, Boro correctly pointed to a phantom Hera, particularly so early in the Day. But did he talk about Steve as the Cursed, or just as someone he wouldn't mind lynching? If the former, the whole theory breaks down. However, if he was less specific, even that weak suspicion, added to his Seer-hinting, might have been enough to get the pack after him (supposing Steve is in fact a wolf, that is).

[Inziladun]

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

If you find a purpose for day one other than what you mentioned you will have to share.

So far I got a whole lot of nothing.

First post.

Seriously, Fowlren, Day Ones are generally useful for analysis later on, if nothing else.

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

That's true. Didn't think about that. At the time though it is quite confusing. :p


I don't read much into those two.

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

I second this! There has been some good discussion, but it also seem like there has been some dragged on discussion regarding the lovers.

I don't think the Seers should reveal. Obviously they should give some hints, confuse some wolves, and hopefully help out the town while they are at it.

I think I skipped over the Zeus comments so I'll have to go back and see if there is anything there.

Singles out a statement from Nog that she agrees with. Doesn't think the Seers should reveal. Even if one of them has a dream they later find is incorrect?

I think it'd be good for Eonwe to comment on this. I personally am leaning towards him being innocent at this point. However am going to be keeping my eye on him.

Wants Eönwë to explain the Dionysus remark. As for him being "innocent", I don't think that was necessarily in question, unless she meant she didn't think he was the Cursed.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! :cool: And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too.

This was in response to KeeperMira saying she needed a cheat sheet to keep the roles straight. A harmless enough remark in itself, I guess, but the tone just seems too glib, somehow.

I was going to post the same thing. I'm so glad I made the list cause it made all this Zeus talk even more interesting. Is it just something to stir up the pot and add confusion?

Agreeing with me and Mira about not understanding Boro's talk of Zeus and Hera. She seems to do a lot of 'agreeing'.

Looks like so far I don't have much as far as suspicions. The people that have hit my radar so far toDay are:

Boro - There was all the Zeus talk around him. However he generally confuses me so it probably means nothing.

Lottie - That might just because I'm on her radar so it probably is just a knee-jerk reaction to that. However she's also is on Nog's radar and I tend to trust Nog.

Mac - I'm not sure about him. I really can't put my finger on it, but it also might be that once again I'm on his radar so it probably means nothing.

Eonwe - I'd like to know more about this statement:


Everyone else seems to be ok or hasn't said a lot so really don't have much to go on.

On another note I talked to Sally and she said she's having internet that seems to be working sporadically.

List of people "on the radar". Interesting that she uses Nog as a reason to suspect Lottie.

Mac is suspicious enough to me pretty much any time, and it still looks like an awfully thin explanation of Boro's words that he's giving. And he sure is persistant about it, too.

So now I'm not the only one who has suspicions of Mac. I really am beginning to wonder if some hints are going on. Granted it would seem to be pretty obvious that he's giving a hint to a fellow lover if that's what he were doing. Anyone have any thoughts?

Agreeing with me about Mac.

At this time Mac is most suspicous in my book.

Self-explanatory. But then, very next post, responding to Mac:

I am definitely with you on this one. I also know that we definitely see each other as enemies right now. As much as I have my suspicions about you I'm not sure I'm willing to vote for you just yet. Maybe it's because I feel the same way about the BG votes. It'd be an easy lynch and I don't agree with that.

She'd just said Mac was the 'most suspicious', then waffles and says she might not vote for him.

As I was looking at my list I am wondering about wilwa and her post for BG.

I am also not sure about Boro. He sure did stir up the pot, but I'm not sure that he's a wolf.

Looking at my list of players no one is jumping out at me screaming wolf. I'm wondering if they are one of the quiet ones.

You mentioned Zil. Is there something that makes you suspect him or you just suspect him on principle?

Mac had asked her who she would vote for, if not BG. Says Wilwa because of the latter's post about BG (which post I'm not sure). Pretty odd, since tum herself voted BG in the end. and Mac is nowhere to be found there.

I want to touch on a few of the items you mentioned. For the most part I agree with your innocent list. I say most part instead of all because I'm not in your innocent list.

I know I've played with Nienna but can't seem to remember how she plays. However as you pointed out she's a BG voter. I think some of the people who have voted for BG have been throwing their votes away.

Not sure what you meant by this: Greenie (the nagging Persephone-suspicion persists since it fits so well)

I think you make a good point about Keeper. Maybe something to look at.

As you pointed out Inzil is a BG voter.

And I wanted to touch on Nerwen. To me her comment seemed innocent, and I didn't see her defending herself as being tense.

This was a response to a list Mac made. Interesting that she now agrees with him quite a bit, where not long before he'd been 'the most suspicious in her book', and all that totally vanished.

I hear you Nog! I keep thinking that I really do need to vote soon, but then this is just sooo interesting that I'm not ready to put my laptop away and call it a night. Not to mention I really need to look at who I want to vote for. Yet at this time I don't see any unity on the votes other than the ones for BG.

More agreeing with Nog, this time on his comment that he just couldn't bring himself to go to bed. Seems odd that she keeps singling him out like that.

I think we should keep Eonwe around. If he turns then we can always lynch him the next day. Right?

Doesn't want to lynch Eönwë, but doesn't say why not.

It seems as though one of the people I see as innocent is going to get lynched toDay. Out of the three with the most votes I see all of them as innocent. It doesn't seem right to vote for any of them.

The one I feel least inclined to vote for is Eonwe. Not sure who to vote for between BG and Nerwen. However if it came to where I had to save Eonwe I think I'd have to vote for BG. Sorry BG. :(

Says she saw steve, BG, and Nerwen as innocent, but apparently intends to vote for one of them. Still no further mention of the one who had been her surest suspect, Mac.

So after making that post I think it's time for me to vote and go to bed.

++BG



And with no further ado, votes BG.

All right, so she used the fact that Wilwa and I voted for BG as marks against us, then did the same thing herself.
She came out strongly against Mac, and let that die completely with no explanation.
And the odd fixation on Nog....

If I'd been able to stay til DL I would almost certainly have voted tum instead of BG. Unless something changes, that's probably what I'll do toDay.

x/d with all since my last

[Macalaure]

With all the seer-talk and "7 between 1 and 10", Boro pretty much told the wolves to kill him. There were a few scenarios the wolves would have considered.

1) He's indeed a high-level gifted.
2) He's a hunter.
3) He's an ordo or low-level gifted trying to make the wolves waste a kill.
4) He's the cursed and wants to be turned.

1) Kill him right away, even if he might be protected.
2) If Eonwe is a wolf they might hesitate, but otherwise: kill. The hunters' chances are worst during Night2. The sooner to get rid of them, the better.
3) Little benefit, but "At least we won't accidentally kill one of the unknown lovers."
4) Kill, obviously, especially considering that we would probably lynch Eonwe.

[the phantom]

During the time I had last night I did a bit of reading for Hades hints and Mac stood out a couple of times.

The first statement that jumped out was this-
If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.
I realize quite well that I didn't include it in its entire context, but it did in fact seem to jump out at me stand-alone, as he didn't have to say it exactly like that.

And then he said this-
The lovers are trying to find each other - we have to look for hints.
Almost as if he was getting Persephone's attention- "Hey! Persephone! Be looking for hints! *ahem* "

And then there was this one that looks rather harmless, but immediately upon my second read-through stood out to me-
*gives up*
That was the entire post- two words only. And since I was looking for Hades clues, I thought "Hades gives up", which of course immediately triggered the scripture where it says "Hades gives up the dead".

And then the final statement that really really stood out to me-
In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".
The middle part of the statement that stands alone between the commas I found quite interesting, "though it's frustrating to be ALONE with it". A hint that he's all alone, i.e. he's not with his lover?

What do other people think?

And of course I should ask Mac directly- what's the deal, laddie? Do you feel you were rather fixated on Lovers yesterday, particularly Hades/Persephone? If so, was it intentional?

The thing is, there could be a couple of explanations with behavior like that- the obvious thing, the less obvious but more likely by percentages thing, or the least likely by role percentage and easily forgotten thing but obvious if you re-read the rules. (Do you follow me?) So- which thing is it?

[Rikae]

Actually, I read the "although it's frustrating to be alone with it" post (which also is eye catching for ending with the words "I am a lover") several times over before making up my mind that the wording, which is odd enough to jump out at me, was probably due to Mac using a second language and not any kind of hint. I'm still a bit torn about it, though.

[Macalaure]

The thing is, there could be a couple of explanations with behavior like that- the obvious thing, the less obvious but more likely by percentages thing, or the least likely by role percentage and easily forgotten thing but obvious if you re-read the rules. (Do you follow me?) So- which thing is it?I'm not sure I have the heart to tell you. :p

[the phantom]

I'm not sure I have the heart to tell you. :p
And there's another lover quote! Are you trying to make things difficult?
Actually, I read the "although it's frustrating to be alone with it" post (which also is eye catching for ending with the words "I am a lover") several times over before making up my mind that the wording, which is odd enough to jump out at me, was probably due to Mac using a second language and not any kind of hint. I'm still a bit torn about it, though.
Hmmm.... So perhaps he wasn't hinting that he was Hades, but rather that he was German. :D

On the subject of Steve- I said yesterday I didn't think he looked like Dionysus and I stick by that, so if Boro was the false Seer and dreamed of Steve then I believe he is innocent, as it's unlikely the false dream yielded the correct role. If Boro was the real Seer and dreamed Steve then I was at least right about him not being Dionysus, but obviously we should lynch him for Wolfdom. Bleh. Which is more likely?

I agree with Nerwen calling that one argument he made today "dodgy", but that's really all I've seen from him that gets my suspicion up.

[A Little Green]

Hmm. I was pretty sure yesterDay that Mac was Hades (a big part of why I voted for him in the first place), but didn't want to say it because I kind of hoped against all hope that Persephone had failed to notice what I did (a big part of why I voted for him with such flimsy reasons instead of my real ones). That obviously doesn't matter anymore now that all his possible Hades hints are out in the open anyway.

I have some doubts yet (among them the classic "Can it be this easy?"), but unless something drastic happens I'd be willing to vote for Mac toDay (though my track record of voting the same person twice in a row is rather terrible - most often the said person has turned out innocent. Unless it's Nog. :p)

I think I'll make a list now because I fear that I (and most others, for that matter) have been ignoring some players and concentrating on others. If I have time after that, I'll check through the posts of someone who is sliding by with hardly anyone noticing.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[Macalaure]

so if Boro was the false Seer and dreamed of Steve then I believe he is innocent, as it's unlikely the false dream yielded the correct role.

While I agree that Eonwe is probably not the cursed, the probability of the event that Eonwe has a (potentially) evil role is not affected by the outcome of the random experiment that determined the false seer's dream.

Are you trying to make things difficult?

Me? :D

[Rikae]

Phantom, I know very well what you're up to, but right now I'm more concerned about Nerwen. She seems a little fishy, eh? I guess it's just a hunch, though.

Don't like people picking on my sweetie so much. He hasn't played in a long time, so let's not lynch him on Day 2, shall we? Especially when we have two major leads pointing in the direction of Steve and... helllo Almighty Phantom! :p

EDIT: X'd with Sweetie-Pie

[Lalaith]

if Boro was the false Seer and dreamed of Steve then I believe he is innocent, as it's unlikely the false dream yielded the correct role

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Seer dreams of a Cursed, is he told that the player is an ord? So for Boro to have dreamt of Eonwe and believed him to be evil, it would be either as wolf or, arguably, lover?

[Rikae]

Where is all this "Steve is probably not the cursed" business coming from, anyway? I haven't seen a good argument against it. Against him having been Boro's dream and the cursed, yes, but there's still solid reason for thinking he's the cursed. His explanation for his "Dionysus" remark looked to me like a less-than-sincere echo of Nerwen and Boro's explanations.

For Boro's dream, though, I'm strongly leaning toward Phantom=Zeus. However, if he is, do we want to lynch him, or try to get Hera first and make him into an innocent (with additional powers, and on the side of the village)? Puts a bit of a new light on Phantom's lover-talk of yesterDay as well. Still, I doubt he'd have done anything yet that would lead us to Hera.

EDIT: X'd with Lalaith.

[the phantom]

While I agree that Eonwe is probably not the cursed, the probability of the event that Eonwe has a (potentially) evil role is not affected by the outcome of the random experiment that determined the false seer's dream.
Yeah, true I guess.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Seer dreams of a Cursed, is he told that the player is an ord? So for Boro to have dreamt of Eonwe and believed him to be evil, it would be either as wolf or, arguably, lover?
Yep.
Don't like people picking on my sweetie so much. He hasn't played in a long time, so let's not lynch him on Day 2, shall we? Especially when we have two major leads pointing in the direction of Steve and... helllo Almighty Phantom! :p
Your "sweetie" may not have played in a long time, but I haven't either! Not since last summer. What about some pity for me? :(

edit: x-post Rikae

[Rikae]

Your "sweetie" may not have played in a long time, but I haven't either! Not since last summer. What about some pity for me? :(


Don't cry, little one - you're a special snowflake. And king of the Gods. What more do you want?
:p

Anyway, you'll note that I don't actually think you should be lynched at this point in time; or at least, I consider it debatable.

[the phantom]

Where is all this "Steve is probably not the cursed" business coming from, anyway? I haven't seen a good argument against it.
I gave my argument yesterday. Given what I've seen in the past and in this game from Steve, his Dionysus comment definitely felt like a throwaway. Plus there was his tandem Ranger idea, which I don't see why he should've mentioned had he been a cursed intent on helping the baddies.
For Boro's dream, though, I'm strongly leaning toward Phantom=Zeus.
Okay, first there is the fact that I am not Zeus.

Then, for those who don't know to trust my word-
Where did he hint at such a thing? Boro specifically said to Mac that there were intentions in his first post, but-
Zeus has absolutely nothing to do with those intentions, you're looking at the wrong part.
That seems rather a stupid thing to say if he was indeed trying to hint at Zeus's identity.

And even if he hadn't said that, but rather had actually said that I was Zeus, all that would mean is that he was the false Seer.

(edit: lunch time- brb)

[satansaloser2005]

Wow, that was a really absurd comment I made, then, wasn't it? So much so that someone (although not you or Folwren, apparently) might even conclude that it was a joke!

Shush. I was tired and thought maybe, just maybe, you'd lost your marbles. Good to know you're still all right then. *pets you* I was a bit concerned for you. :o


Phantom? Special snowflake? Nah. :p


In other news, I'd love to make a list of suspicions, but I'll need to read the thread again. And again, I'm useless. *pouts* On the plus side, at least Dun's not tried to attack me as usual. Perhaps he knows something I don't. Hmmmm. Nah, not possible. :p


EDIT: x'd with Phantom....pants *runs and hides*

[Rikae]

I would not put so much stock in Boro having said that; he was defending himself at that point, after all.

EDIT: X'd with Sally.

[Folwren]

Greetings, all. sorry I'm late. I'm not even here now, really. Just for like two minutes.

I will be on again in approximately 3 hours, at which time, I will try to read everything and post something of substance.

For now, I will say that I read most of what went on yesterday and I'd like to say that it was really ... not smart to kill BeiGei. Just sayin'. You all could have gone for someone who was at least remotely guilty.

That being said, I will depart. During the few minutes I have left right now, I will read and prolly not post again until a little later this afternoon.

--Foley

P.S. Sorry about not highlighting my vote yesterday, Mr. Mod. and fellow players. I'd neglected to notice that it was highlighted in the discussion thread. I just remembered from way back when where all that was needed was a seperate line, two plus signs, and bolded lettering. whoops.

[satansaloser2005]

For now, I will say that I read most of what went on yesterday and I'd like to say that it was really ... not smart to kill BeiGei. Just sayin'. You all could have gone for someone who was at least remotely guilty.

Did you miss the part where she was shifty and rather nonsensical? :eyeroll:

In other news, don't worry about the vote. Happens to the best of us. :)


I don't want to go back to work. But I must. I'll be back in a few hours. :(

[Rikae]

Oh, and Sally, dear, don't look at the post count... :cool:

I look forward to watching you try to catch up.

EDIT: whoa! X'd with Sally and Folwren.

[Lalaith]

Greenie and phantom bicker, Rikae and phantom banter, oh my it's good to be back.

Sally, I know what you mean about feeling useless though. You actually worry me less today than you did yesterday.

Who has posted so far today? It seems like the focus has been on just a handful of players....it feels like a smaller village than it should be.

Also, the MM. I don't want to sound like I've got a bee in my bonnet but you do all realise there is just under a one in 4.5 chance that we now have five wolves?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.
Um... what? I have no clue what he's saying there, but it looks like he's up to something or other. Any thoughts Mira?


I somehow completely missed this. :eek:

Well as far as not confusing me, he did an awful job. As for the "ere the night ends" bit, if I didn't know any better I'd suspect he thought I had a role that would be able to protect him. Unfortunately he overestimated me.

Side note: I haven't actually read anything beyond phantom's Boro post yet. Once I shower and get some food in me I'll finish catching up before work.

[Nogrod]

Where did he hint at such a thing? Boro specifically said to Mac that there were intentions in his first post, but-
Zeus has absolutely nothing to do with those intentions, you're looking at the wrong part.
That seems rather a stupid thing to say if he was indeed trying to hint at Zeus's identity.Well, now as you mention that. I have been wondering all a long why no one looks at the obvious connection of what the other part is - which is Hera of course.

"Be allied to wolves, be allied to lovers, be allied to Zeus" - who is it but Hera?

And I did notice tp nicely overlooked that interpretation in his otherwise thorough-looking close-reading of Boro's posting.

Or am I just unable to see something you all see?

[A Little Green]

LEANING INNOCENT:

Wilwa - Hasn't done anything to merit suspicion. That is to say, other than casting an apologetic-toned vote for BG. I didn't like that vote, but I'm not sure if it's wolvish or not.

Lottie - I'm inclined to believe her innocent at the moment, though I'd be happier with her if she explained why she's so convinced of Tum's furriness, and suspicious of Mac and Nog.

Nerwen - If she's a wolf I'll eat my hat. I know she has fooled me totally before, but right now I have no reason to suspect her. She's making way too much sense (though sure Nerwolf is capable of that too) and just generally not bothering to try to rub people the right way.

Rikae - Right now I'm more inclined to think she's innocent. As I wrote those words, though, I got the feeling that she's grinning an evil grin right now. Werewolf makes me paranoid.

NO GREAT IMPRESSION TO EITHER DIRECTION:

Kath - Too little data for me to say this or that. She was the first to vote BG, and did so because she wanted to go for somebody quiet and thought BG was the least constructive of the quiet ones. Really, that could go either way - it's understandable (if easy) reasoning for an innocent, but also smooth for a wolf.

Inzil - Is posting relatively actively but I have no read on him whatsoever. I think this has happened before. He's a strong candidate for the one I'm reading through if I have time, as I have no idea about him.

Nienna - I have a similar problem with her as with Inzil - I just have no read on her. I'd love to have a closer look at her if I have time.

Folwren - Again, I've seen too little of her to judge properly. Nothing that would stand out as wolvish.

autume - Inzil's analysis of her looked pretty bad. But then again, she's pretty new (I assume; I've never played with her before) and all the inconsistence might be just due to that. Not sure. I'd like to know Lottie's arguments against her.

Lalaith - Is sensible and sweet (the latter might be partly due to the cute avvie, though!) to the point of being scary. I have no idea about her. Another I'd love to check.

Shasta - Falls into the "too little data" -category.

Sally - Again, too little of substance to go on with. Doesn't look like a Sallywolf this far, though.

TOO MANY IMPRESSIONS AKA CAUSES A HEADACHE:

Mira - Hmm. I didn't like her vote (the 5th for BG), she stated quite openly she votes her for reasons other than actual suspicion:Who I probably will be voting for toDay unless something better comes up within the next hour or so:
Blind Guardian - don't be posting that you want people to provide you with substance and then don't do anything to spark discussion.I understand the frustration, but still - we're supposed to be looking for wolves, aren't we? Boro's hint to her was really confusing, as it implied that she had a protective role. Now it's possible that he dreamed of her, but I see a couple of problems in that. Firstly, he must have been the false Seer or she must have missed the hint because obviously she didn't protect him; and secondly, it doesn't make sense for the Seer to make such a show of being the Seer just for the sake of getting someone to protect them for the next Night (when, had they kept their mouth shut about being the Seer, they wouldn't have needed protection in the first place). If anyone has any idea whatsoever of this whole confusing Mira-business, I'd be very interested to hear it as my own don't make the slightest bit of sense.

Eonwe - Another who keeps messing with my head. My gut says innocent, but some of the stuff that's going on about him.. Still, I'm more inclined to find him innocent than not. I'll put him down as headache-causing though anyway.

Nog - Argh. I disagree with most of what he says and some of his arguments are just way off. For possibly the first time in our common ww history, though, I'm not especially suspicious of him. His sudden jump on Mac still looks bad, though. It didn't look wolf-on-wolf to me, it was too random and too sudden to serve any purpose that I can think of. If Mac isn't a wolf I'll look harder on Nog; if Mac is a wolf, I'm just baffled. He messes with my head enough to make it to this category, though.

Phantom - He's either not a wolf, or else my initial thought was correct and he is, in fact, Hera. Right now I'm more inclined to think the former.

LEANING GUILTY:

Mac - Like I believe I said previously, I will vote for him toDay unless something dramatic happens before I go to bed. The lead I have on him is, after all, rather better founded than my suspicion of anyone else.


EDIT: Ouch x-ed since phantom's 353, you people post way too fast!

[A Little Green]

Well, now as you mention that. I have been wondering all a long why no one looks at the obvious connection of what the other part is - which is Hera of course.

"Be allied to wolves, be allied to lovers, be allied to Zeus" - who is it but Hera?

And I did notice tp nicely overlooked that interpretation in his otherwise thorough-looking close-reading of Boro's posting.

Or am I just unable to see something you all see?*coughmyfirstposttoDaycough*

[the phantom]

Oh... my... God... Nog. I'm seriously about to strangle you.

You just completely repeated what's already been done today with Greenie and I!! Did you entirely skip our posts, or do you just hope that by bringing it up again Boro's posts will magically change to fit your view?

Once again, I repeat, Boro specifically explained that first post by saying that he had not been looking at the roles/affiliations carefully (due to the fact that it was 5 in the morning) and he mistakenly believed that Zeus was on the side of the village (i.e. allied with Zeus meant innocent).

Do I need to post his quote again? :rolleyes:
As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.
If the regular part of the statement wasn't clear enough for you, note the part inside brackets specifically mentions Zeus being in OPPOSITION to Hera!

If you're going to use his post to suspect me, you can't decide to ignore what he says later about his post. He knew he was a Seer, and thus knew we'd be looking back at his words should he die. Your case is so completely and obviously flawed (when Greenie made it she was honest enough to admit she didn't have great faith in it). To put it forth a second time like this sounds downright desperate, as if you came into the day with the plan of turning attention onto me.

And as for Rikae-
I would not put so much stock in Boro having said that; he was defending himself at that point, after all.
Don't put stock in what Boro says, but still use his words as a basis of suspicion? How convenient. :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

Another short notice... so you guys think I'm overstretching when finding Nerwen to have hinted of being Hades? Looking at phantom and Greenie doing their stuff toDay... well you're really doing it!

Phantom's building of the Hades-hints looks pretty much a collection of fabricated and off-their relation picked things, but still Greenie picked on it saying: I was pretty sure yesterDay that Mac was Hades (a big part of why I voted for him in the first place), but didn't want to say it because I kind of hoped against all hope that Persephone had failed to notice what I did (a big part of why I voted for him with such flimsy reasons instead of my real ones). That obviously doesn't matter anymore now that all his possible Hades hints are out in the open anyway.

Okay one reason to my reaction: I actually agreed yesterDay - and do so toDay - on what Mac said, that you really can make the argument that Nerwen is a wolf becasue of her Hades-stuff. It is a point worth noticing, but hardly a call for Persephone to look at him.

Another reason: most of us commented on the lovers and our need to find any hints they would desperately need to make - I was probably one of the most loud on that. So why pick Mac as someone who had an obsession with it - or pick up somethig like "we need to look at hints" as especially suspicious. We need to look at hints, and I believe many said that.

And that "gives up" -part - as another second-language speaker I see that as a bit over the top. Really. Also being alone - with his opinion on that subject matter? Right?

I don't believe I'm taking such a strong defencive stance on Mac but no can do as your efforts in making him look like Hades look much more evil. Which doesn't mean I think he's innocent by definition.

But you two could be Hera and Zeus actually? Trying to help Nerwen (eg. the real Hades)? How would that sound to you guys? :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

Do you have reasons for these, or are they just gut-feelings? The following is what I found for your suspicion of Mac:I don't like that logic (insofar as saying someone is "feeling slightly off" includes a logic), especially as I think it appeared only after I voiced some suspicion about Mac. The same goes for Nog, actually - the way he jumped on my suspicion of Mac was fishy and quite uncharacteristical of him. (Usually he doesn't trust a word I say!) It made me think worse of him and better of Mac, actually.

Yeah, I do. Mac was acting funny all Day, then when people started to point that out, he "gives up". This seems like he realized he had no excuse. The Hades argument makes a lot of sense to me, but I will freely admit, I had not put a god's name to my suspicion of him - just that I thought he was a wolf.

Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)

This seems like the most likely of the theories of who Boro dreamed.

Don't like people picking on my sweetie so much. He hasn't played in a long time, so let's not lynch him on Day 2, shall we? Especially when we have two major leads pointing in the direction of Steve and... helllo Almighty Phantom! :p

What major leads?

As for Tum and Nog, I still don't like them.

Nog helped spearhead the Cursed!Steve theory, but called for the village to leave him be. As a wolf, if he thought Steve was not the Cursed, this is ingenius. Not only would this effectively isolate an innocent from all the other innocents, if the wolves did turn the real Cursed, we'd lynch Steve, not the Cursed.

EDIT: xed with people and, once again, I'm not really here yet, and I probably won't be for a long while yet.

[Nogrod]

I saw the posts by tp and Greenie I x'd with... okay, sorry, must have read your early rant carelessly.

I'm not sure I totally buy tp's explanation though, but actually it doesn't matter that much. And arguing about would be a waste of time to be honest as we have no Boro left to tell us how it actually was...

But I'm really curious about phantom's motives behind the way he tried to frame Mac as making Hades hints - and Greenie's immediate usage of it...

[Nogrod]

I'm not really here yet, and I probably won't be for a long while yet.Same with me. I thought of just making a few quick remarks and come back later... and it took what, an hour. :) Well the time of "the later" just got postponed a bit...

[the phantom]

But I'm really curious about phantom's motives behind the way he tried to frame Mac as making Hades hints - and Greenie's immediate usage of it...
I wasn't framing him. I was stating what stood out to me, and at the bottom I definitely left it open to other interpretations, and I asked Mac personally if he could help me answer the question. The fact is I was leaning towards believing that Mac was not Hades, but up to something entirely different, and was trying to give him a chance to hint me to it (to confirm what I was thinking). It remains to be seen whether or not I was right.

And sorry, but I can't answer for Greenie. If you think we're Zeus and Hera, you're wrong. And just a minute ago weren't you saying I was Hera? It looks to me like you're determined one way or another to go at me, once again giving me the feeling that you came into the day with a plan to try and float me as a lynching target.

But since your new theory has me as Zeus, if you wished to test the theory I assume you'd try to lynch Hera first, yes? If that's the case, go ahead. Feel free. I have no special bond with any other player. And if Greenie turns out to be innocent, then what? Go back to Day 1 and attempt to misuse Boro's words on another unrelated party? I mean, keep in mind looking at his words I am clearly not Zeus, but you've formed a theory despite that where I am, and then assuming that false assumption is correct you build upon it and attempt to identify Hera.

This seems like a totally insane way to try and use the dead Seer's words. Not to mention the very obvious fact that he may be the false Seer and thus your false reasoning is based on false information to begin with.

I stated at the end of yesterday that I was not agreeing with your logic and reasoning at all this game, and I see that it has continued into today. If given the chance I would definitely try taking a shot at you with the lynch today.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. I need to get some food, though, so I should be back soonish.

So far, it seems there's three leading theories as to Boro's Night 1 dream -

- Phantom as Hera/Zeus
- Eonwe as a wolf
- Mira as a ranger

Now, given Boro's off the wall comment to Mira yesterday, and his comment about Eonwe being a 'negative four', I'm leaning towards theory 1 (Phantom = Hera/Zeus) as the least likely of the three. However, if it was theory 3, then I think Boro was likely to be the False Seer, as I think Mira is smart enough to pick up on a hint like that and thus protect him if she actually is a ranger.

And I will say right now I don't like Eonwe's 'If I was a wolf, why would I do that?' defense. At all.

[Rikae]

Don't put stock in what Boro says, but still use his words as a basis of suspicion? How convenient. :rolleyes:

Way to oversimplify things. Why should we take what Boro said under pressure, in self-defense, more seriously than what he put in a post that we know contained hints, early in the day when he could essentially say whatever he liked?

- still reading -

[Nogrod]

And sorry, but I can't answer for Greenie. If you think we're Zeus and Hera, you're wrong. And just a minute ago weren't you saying I was Hera? But since your new theory has me as ZeusWhy? Couldn't I still cling on that very same belief? Maybe Boro got scared of his hints and tried to get you off his trail with his later remarks feeling safe enough not to die in the village of 20+ on N1 (not making it)?

Anyway, that was just to test you (and Greenie) with something that actually crossed my mind but which I considered rather too nice to be true. But I must say the results are quite interesting... You're waay too touchy. And really, others have a license to toy around as well.

Just remember, there are what, twenty players and only one basic ordo. You shouldn't be the one who must be reminded we all have some hidden agendas. And you're not the only one pursuing some goal other than which meets the eye.

It looks to me like you're determined one way or another to go at me, once again giving me the feeling that you came into the day with a plan to try and float me as a lynching target.
That was nowhere near my plan, unless you give me reasons for it for coming Days. I'm still leaning on Nerwen and/or Eonwë, but I'll try to come up with some fresher thoughts a bit later as it is sadly true that most talk has revolved around just a few people and that seldom is healthy.

X'd with Rikae

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Back with food, and no one seems to have posted... Well. I may have to vote extremely early today as I'm being kidnapped later... so let's see.

Regarding Mac's Hades-hints - I'm not sure I buy Rikae's explanation of them (and the fact that she leapt to said defense bothers me a little). Did Mac ever explain them himself? They looked legit to me - I don't really see them being accidental. I probably couldn't have come up with better ones, so that Rikae seems to be blaming at least one of them on the fact that Mac's second language is English hits me as rather far-fetched. So that's where I'm at on Mac right now... and I have to wonder if Rikae wouldn't boldly defend Mac even if they were wolves together. At least one wolf has no lover - that wolf I could see making a bold play since they have less to lose than their partners.

I do also want to look at Nogrod before I leave for the day. My vote will likely be on one of Mac or Nog.

[Eönwë]

Ok, I've finally caught up with the thread, but I think I should probably do a list before anything else, because this is getting even more confusing than I thought it would be...

[Nienna]

Greenie – Day One is particularly hard to find wolves. So I know personally I voted to kill the person who I thought would be detrimental to the village. I could have voted someone else (a possible wolf) but could have much more easily gotten an important gifted and since I didn’t have any idea who the wolves were I wasn’t willing to risk it.

Phantom – getting defensive toward Greenie but it seems more like innocent defensive than wolf defensive . He seems to be making logical sense. He can stay.

Rikae – keeping up the pet names for Mac a little stronger than is normal for her in a game. I’m actually trying to remember if she has ever done it before when they play together a lot.

I’m getting good vibes from Sally. I can usually read her pretty well so that’s a plus.

Shasta is making sense… in his 372 post at least. I am in agreement that those the three most likely theories and that Mira is probably not the Ranger. I’m also not feeling Phantom as Zeus or Hera. And I agree that Steve’s defense looks weak.

Nog seems to be saying a really lot but he’s not imprinting any impressions on me.

Mac I have no real feelings on either way. He doesn’t seem particularly furry to me or particularly innocent. It’ll be interesting to see what comes out of this recent suspicion surrounding him.

Greenie for some reason is rubbing me the wrong way. I’m not sure why.

Tum’s BG vote looks very suspicious if for timing alone. That’d be a perfect time for a wolf to slip a vote in. Zil’s, however, doesn’t look fabulous either, as he made the bandwagon a possibility and started the ball rolling. I also (as I mentioned at the time) don’t like his reasoning.

Those are my thoughts so far as I read through the day. I know others posted but it didn’t really seem worth mentioning.

[Rikae]

Shasta - I pretty much always have the impulse to defend people when I think they're being suspected based on some aspect of their personality, style, etc. In this case, Mac's "my opinion, which it's frustrating to be alone with," is of course perfectly fine English, but the fact that this wasn't really a common way of phrasing it, and that it would make the part I bolded jump out at people as a possible hint, might not have occurred to him. Meta, but I've proofread a lot of (RL) stuff for him and I think I have a pretty good idea of what he might innocently say.

[the phantom]

Way to oversimplify things. Why should we take what Boro said under pressure, in self-defense, more seriously than what he put in a post that we know contained hints, early in the day when he could essentially say whatever he liked?
You people are acting like you've never seen Boro as the Seer before. He knows how to work his posts together, and what not to say if he desires a certain path to be taken, and what you're describing is not like him at all. If he truly found someone guilty it was Steve, and I'm not completely on board with that even seeing as Boro may be false and it's also possible he wished only to ping the WW radar via his Seer hints rather than actually identifying a baddie (which is the thing that truly matters when it comes to whether or not the WWs try to kill you).
You're waay too touchy.
And again I wish to strangle you. In my Werewolfing career, every... single.... time I am innocent and come under heavy suspicion based upon bad reasoning I respond exactly like this, and every... single.... time someone has said I'm being suspiciously touchy. :rolleyes:

Guess what? They haven't been right yet, and you aren't this time either.

I'm not touchy- I'm annoyed at the fact that multiple people are taking such flimsy stuff and stubbornly pushing forward in the wrong direction. It's just about all I can do to keep from accusing you all of being in cahoots.

Mac, sir- any serious answer yet to that question I asked you way back when, or did you in fact already give it?

[A Little Green]

I buy that you missed the early conversation between phantom and me. As for your arguments, I'll try to answer them. I don't necessarily think you are a wolf, I just think you're way off the wall. :pOkay one reason to my reaction: I actually agreed yesterDay - and do so toDay - on what Mac said, that you really can make the argument that Nerwen is a wolf becasue of her Hades-stuff. It is a point worth noticing, but hardly a call for Persephone to look at him.You can make that argument, yes. I don't buy it. I believe Nerwen is far subtler than that - it just wouldn't sound like her at all to scream "Hades" in her first post if she was in fact Hades who wanted Persephone's attention. (A bit similar to why I didn't quite buy your theory of a Dionysus-Eonwe screaming "Dionysus"...) What I was thinking was that Nerwen was Persephone who, for some insane reason, screamed "Hades" in her first post (possibly to imply to Hades that she's waiting for a hint, or else she was confused about the rules and didn't know Hades knew her identity) - and Mac-Hades, knowing her identity of course, responded with this:You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.Even if Nerwen isn't Persephone (and her and Mac's interactions from yesterDay don't exactly point at that direction), I don't think it's too far-fetched to interpret that quote as a Hades-hint. That was the first thing I thought of when I read it yesterDay. The second arguable Hades-hint is as follows:In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".I'm not sure about this one, not sure at all. It did make me raise my eyebrows a bit, but I might not have noticed it at all if I hadn't already had the suspicion that he is Hades.
Another reason: most of us commented on the lovers and our need to find any hints they would desperately need to make - I was probably one of the most loud on that. So why pick Mac as someone who had an obsession with it - or pick up somethig like "we need to look at hints" as especially suspicious. We need to look at hints, and I believe many said that.

And that "gives up" -part - as another second-language speaker I see that as a bit over the top. Really.I agree with Nog on these two, I think they are a bit too far off and I certainly did not see them as Hades hints. I still don't. I also agree with you that phantom's reaction to your (admittedly off-the-wall) attack was odd.
But you two could be Hera and Zeus actually? Trying to help Nerwen (eg. the real Hades)? How would that sound to you guys?Erm... how about far-fetched? Are you implying that Hera and Zeus would make a public show just to help Hades who isn't even in trouble? Like, what?
I'm not sure I totally buy tp's explanation though, but actually it doesn't matter that much.I'm not sure about that either, yet.


EDIT: x-ed with Eonwe, Nienna, Rikae and phantom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta - I pretty much always have the impulse to defend people when I think they're being suspected based on some aspect of their personality, style, etc. In this case, Mac's "my opinion, which it's frustrating to be alone with," is of course perfectly fine English, but the fact that this wasn't really a common way of phrasing it, and that it would make the part I bolded jump out at people as a possible hint, might not have occurred to him. Meta, but I've proofread a lot of (RL) stuff for him and I think I have a pretty good idea of what he might innocently say.

That's true, but then when Phantom asked him about it he hinted yet again (this time sarcastically on purpose, I think). That's only one of Mac's hints. Do you think they're all for the same 'second language' reason?

And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was. It makes me wonder - especially since Nerwen got votes yesterday.

[Eönwë]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=634843&postcount=60)). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:

Poseidon- God of the Sea – Poseidon is this games Unicorn. When Poseidon dies I will put the names of all of the dead in a hat, including the Unicorn’s name. If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.
Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:
Now, as I've said, the only way I will be playing with ALL of these roles is if I get enough people signed up to play. If not enough people are playing, I will remove some roles. If we get more then enough, I may add in a Bear or a Cobbler to the game.
The thing is, the Mod also says this:
Just so we're clear, there is ONE ordo role as there are 20 players and only 19 roles
Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

[Macalaure]

After re-skimming (I'll start re-reading when the number of daily posts falls a reasonable amount), some of my opinions have changed.

Nogrod's fixation on Eonwe is bothering me. Usually he tries to see things from all perspectives. This makes me a bit uneasy.

I was a bit suspicious of Loslote yesterDay. After starting to read, I felt a little better, since I don't think a wolf would so back-and-forth-y on a number of topics. Then, her attacks on me are pretty suspicious. I might analyse her later.

I think Inzil took the "I think Mac is very suspicious, but he always is, so I won't vote for him" a bit too far yesterDay. Otherwise, not particularly suspicious.

I'm feeling a lot better about Autume.

I don't trust Shasta at all right now. He's bandwaggoning on the "Eonwe is cursed" waggon and the "Mac is Hades" waggon with some determination, but little contribution.


Regarding Mac's Hades-hints [...] They looked legit to meThey don't to me, that's why I didn't bother to refute them. I accused Nerwen of hinting to be Hades and obviously I had to use "Hades" and "Persephone" and "lovers" etc. Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.

Btw, since it keeps on coming up, with "giving up" I meant giving up to explain my theory, which was misunderstood a lot.

tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.

In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."


Seriously, if you people are reading Hades-hints into these statements, you're being a lot more far-fetched than I possibly could have been with my Boro/Nerwen-hints theories yesterDay.


Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.

[Nienna]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=634843&postcount=60)). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:


Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?


Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear. And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos. There are lots of innocents... but only one ordo. Make sense?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

After re-skimming (I'll start re-reading when the number of daily posts falls a reasonable amount), some of my opinions have changed.

Nogrod's fixation on Eonwe is bothering me. Usually he tries to see things from all perspectives. This makes me a bit uneasy.

I was a bit suspicious of Loslote yesterDay. After starting to read, I felt a little better, since I don't think a wolf would so back-and-forth-y on a number of topics. Then, her attacks on me are pretty suspicious. I might analyse her later.

I think Inzil took the "I think Mac is very suspicious, but he always is, so I won't vote for him" a bit too far yesterDay. Otherwise, not particularly suspicious.

I'm feeling a lot better about Autume.

I don't trust Shasta at all right now. He's bandwaggoning on the "Eonwe is cursed" waggon and the "Mac is Hades" waggon with some determination, but little contribution.


They don't to me, that's why I didn't bother to refute them. I accused Nerwen of hinting to be Hades and obviously I had to use "Hades" and "Persephone" and "lovers" etc. Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.

Btw, since it keeps on coming up, with "giving up" I meant giving up to explain my theory, which was misunderstood a lot.

tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.

My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."


Seriously, if you people are reading Hades-hints into these statements, you're being a lot more far-fetched than I possibly could have been with my Boro/Nerwen-hints theories yesterDay.


Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.

If I had to pick, Mac, a better way to say that might be 'it's frustrating to be the only one with that opinion', rather than use the word alone (which was apparently misconstrued).

And I don't think I'm 'just jumping' on Phantom's case. Nor am I 'just jumping' on the Eonwe case. Especially today, since I've clearly reconsidered Eonwe (i.e. not talking about him today). This just looks like you're lashing back against people who suspect you. Especially with your reaction to his question earlier - and the way you just responded to Phantom (i.e. denigrating the people who suspect you) makes me think the worse of you, as that's a wolvish tactic.

[Rikae]

That's only one of Mac's hints. Do you think they're all for the same 'second language' reason?


What other hints? The things Phantom posted about? The rest aren't even worth discussing, frankly. They don't look remotely like hints to me.

[the phantom]

Okay, Mac-
Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.
Well naturally any hints are going to have to be somewhat out of context. You can't say "Here's a hint" and then make one of those statements (okay, you could, but then they wouldn't be able to be looked for or discovered, as they'd be right there). So don't accuse me of over-reaching on account of that.
My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."
No, no, there was nothing wrong with the sentence, but the fact that you stated that you were alone and were discussing lovers... I mean- you do understand why that might resemble a hint, right?

But in the end, you say-
tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.
All right then. So in other words you're saying that you weren't even so much as laying false hints, but rather you weren't meaning to be indicating anything at all. Okay. This makes me suspect you less, as it seems to me that it would've been incredibly easy for you to write off the statements as ploys, but instead you've put forth that you never meant it at all, which you surely must know would look less believable in the eyes of those who already wish to suspect you. Why would you say this if it were not the truth? So- at this point I'd say I'm willing to leave those comments behind, Mac.

(Just fyi, in my earlier post I was wondering if perhaps you were Demeter and that was the cause of your Persephone/Hades obsession, and it was the Demeter role I was referring to earlier when I mentioned that there was an unlikely possibility by percentage but something that explained your behavior well after I reread the rules. It was this that I was trying to give you the chance to hint at.)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wait a second, what? Phantom, you say you suspect Mac less because he didn't write off his 'hints' as ploys, because it would have been easy to? That makes no sense. What kind of ploys would they have been, had he said otherwise? It seems to me that claiming they were ploys would have led to Mac having to at least softclaim a role, so... I'm not seeing why that makes him less suspicious.

[Macalaure]

Thanks, phantom.

I got a bit too irritated up there, I think. From my perspective, all those points are kind of ludicrous, and ignoring them just made it all worse. I can understand how Boro/Nerwen/Eonwe feel now.

[Nogrod]

And again I wish to strangle you. In my Werewolfing career, every... single.... time I am innocent and come under heavy suspicion based upon bad reasoning I respond exactly like this, and every... single.... time someone has said I'm being suspiciously touchy. :rolleyes:
...
I'm not touchy- I'm annoyed at the fact that multiple people are taking such flimsy stuff and stubbornly pushing forward in the wrong direction.
So that's two stranglings... not a wonder I felt my throat a bit sore. :)

People should suspect you more so it wouldn't cause such reactions anymore. I mean I don't remember you acting like that, so it must be you have avoided a lot of suspicions as really there's rather little thus far on you in this game - and more os less none you could categorise as "serious suspicion". So just relax, you're not going to end up in the gallows for a time yet.

Guess what? They haven't been right yet, and you aren't this time either.
You maybe right, or then there is the first time. There's little anyone can say about that until the roles have been revealed.

And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was. It makes me wonder - especially since Nerwen got votes yesterday.Am I missing something here? I mean the Boro-part? People went after Boro but then Boro was pushing harder than I am? And hey, unless I find better cnadidates I think Nerwen should get a pile of votes toDay.

Referring to Greenie's comment about Hades-Nerwen not in trouble - don't you guys read what others post?



Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?


Got your attention then, hopefully.

I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue.

Thanks for reading.

Now respond to that and do not just say it's far-fetched off-hand.

EDIT: X'd with a few...

[A Little Green]

Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.You can convince me of nothing, I'm afraid, but you're doing a really good job just by sounding so innocent. Eurgh. I'm really torn now - my cold hard logic says wolf, my warm softer side (that would probably believe almost any "I'm not a wolf" -statement just because it doesn't want to admit that in werewolf nice people lie all the time) says innocent. I'm way too easy to fool, apparently.

Nah, and I'm dead tired and should be going to bed now. Vote in a sec...


EDIT: x-ed with Nog

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Am I missing something here? I mean the Boro-part? People went after Boro but then Boro was pushing harder than I am? And hey, unless I find better cnadidates I think Nerwen should get a pile of votes toDay.

No, what I meant was, you seem to be pushing Nerwen a lot harder than anyone pushed Boro yesterday, for the same exact thing. All she did was say 'What the Hades?', as I recall.

[A Little Green]

Just quickly - Nog, cool down a bit, please. You are not exactly recommending your argument by that, especially right after telling phantom to relax.

I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue. I have given you one, others have given you others I believe. Don't you read what others post? *cough* Like I said, I don't believe Nerwen's "What the Hades" was a hint though there is nothing wrong with your argument itself. I don't believe it because I don't think Nerwen's way of hinting she was Hades would be to scream "Hades". It was either Day 1 banter (more probable, as I think others have pointed out) or a hint from Persephone to Hades (which doesn't really make sense, but was my initial thought).

[Nogrod]

No, what I meant was, you seem to be pushing Nerwen a lot harder than anyone pushed Boro yesterday, for the same exact thing.
And to say that you say this:
And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was.And you think we should go after others because of wordings? :D

[Inziladun]

I haven't time to do much at the moment, but I had to respond to this.

Greenie – Day One is particularly hard to find wolves. So I know personally I voted to kill the person who I thought would be detrimental to the village. I could have voted someone else (a possible wolf) but could have much more easily gotten an important gifted and since I didn’t have any idea who the wolves were I wasn’t willing to risk it.

Tum’s BG vote looks very suspicious if for timing alone. That’d be a perfect time for a wolf to slip a vote in. Zil’s, however, doesn’t look fabulous either, as he made the bandwagon a possibility and started the ball rolling. I also (as I mentioned at the time) don’t like his reasoning.

So I'm suspicious for voting someone who'd been popping in out while saying absolutely nothing, though goading others to talk more, while you voting for someone you admitted was innocent is perfectly all right. :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And to say that you say this:
And you think we should go after others because of wordings? :D

Ah, I see. There's a typo there (missing word). It should be -

he's pushing it harder than Boro was pushed.

My bad.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I haven't time to do much at the moment, but I had to respond to this.





So I'm suspicious for voting someone who'd been popping in out while saying absolutely nothing, though goading others to talk more, while you voting for someone you admitted was innocent is perfectly all right. :rolleyes:

Nienna doesn't admit BG was an innocent there. She says she thinks BG would have been 'most detrimental'. Being detrimental to the village doesn't exclude one from being a wolf, so that seems like a gross misrepresentation on your part, Zil.

[A Little Green]

I think Nog's obsession with Hades-Nerwen is as badly founded as... my obsession with Hades-Mac I suppose. :rolleyes: But really, a Hades-Nerwen just doesn't sit right with me at all, I simply can't see her doing that as Hades. While I have doubts about my Hades-Mac, I find it an infinitely more probable scenario. (And at least I admit I may be wrong and consider other alternatives..)

Alas! here go my hopes of a game that doesn't involve quarreling with Nog. Oh well. :p


EDIT: x-ed with Inzil and 2x Shasta

[the phantom]

To Nog regarding Nerwen-

The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?" When that statement was pointed to yesterday, she responded with these statements-
I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles.
If I had defended myself more you'd now be calling me "defensive" right now, Nogrod. Besides, what was there to say? I tried to adapt an idiom to the setting, just as we'll say "What the Utumno?" in an M-e based game.
These explanations are essentially the same thing that Mac gave to me today- a complete and utter denial of having intended anything at all.

The fact is, Hades would have known going into the day whether or not he was going to hint, and also would have been aware that such hinting was likely to be pointed out. There would be a plan in his head for that eventuality, surely? He would have an explanation ready! So, why didn't Nerwen give a more graceful and intelligent explanation (i.e. claim that she was helping the village by giving Persephone false leadings for instance)?

No- I place her explanation and Mac's in the same boat. Both make me feel better. I may be wrong, but there it is. You may not agree, Nog, but do you see my reasoning?

(edit: x-post with several)

[A Little Green]

And this time I'm truly off to bed. I'll go with the best lead I have and vote

++Mac

I'm not as convinced about this as I was, but still more convinced about this than anything else. And besides, Mac's lynch would shed light on the role of many others - I'm thinking mainly Nerwen, Nog, Lottie, Rikae, and possibly Shasta and phantom too.

Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[Inziladun]

Nienna doesn't admit BG was an innocent there. She says she thinks BG would have been 'most detrimental'. Being detrimental to the village doesn't exclude one from being a wolf, so that seems like a gross misrepresentation on your part, Zil.

No, it was here that she said that:

Zil I don't particularly like your vote for BG as your reasons could be applied to most anyone (inculding Tum who I've noticed has just done something very similar)

I, however, am going to vote for Steve as the possible Cursed. I know he is allied with us for the time being but I'd rather vote and kill him now than risk him being turned... if only for a Day it could be the difference between a Village Win and a Wolf Win. I also don't have any wolf suspects or even suspicions so I'd rather put my vote toward the Cursed pull a vote out of the air and have it turn out to be a gifted.

++ Steve

And now, good night.

"I know he is allied with the village". Wouldn't that equal innocent?

[Nogrod]

I have given you one, others have given you others I believe.I'm not sure about yours, but your belief in others really responding to the believability of the exact scenario is more or less non-existent.

I don't believe Nerwen's "What the Hades" was a hint though there is nothing wrong with your argument itself. I don't believe it because I don't think Nerwen's way of hinting she was Hades would be to scream "Hades". It was either Day 1 banter (more probable, as I think others have pointed out) or a hint from Persephone to Hades (which doesn't really make sense, but was my initial thought)That's exactly the point darling! When she did that she was justifiably in the belief it would not have stood out! But then the game got into a totally another path and hardly anyone bantered or called the Gods... I'm trying to say she was thinkig it would fit in and not arouse attention but against her well-grounded beliefs it ended up calling attention.

It's easy to say, lookng at Day1 as it is now afterwards that only a fool would have put a hint in there as there is so little of any God-name-dropping (the best way to hint) - but could have not been known when the girst posters were posting.

And I do agree, Persephone has no need to hint at Hades as Hades already knows who Persephone is. It's the task of Hades to guide Persephone into guessing it right during the Nights with her PM's. So let's forget that Persephone / Nerwen talk. That is far-fwetched and illogical - still many people seem to find the improbability of Persephone hinting meaning suspicions on Nerwen are far-fetched... :(

My frustration comes only from this, that peole don't pick the actual argument and say it's rubbish because, but only say "Nerwen wouldn't have done that" not ewven considering the circumstances etc that the argument relies on.

Blah. Said once again. And will not say it anymore. If Nerwen is a wolf, you laid the table for her. Be my quests.

[Nogrod]

Okay. Thank's phantom. You I think are the first to actually try to get to grips with the point. I'll answer shortly as I do disagree of Nerwen's and Mac's cases to be similar.

But this quick one first:
(And at least I admit I may be wrong and consider other alternatives..)
I may be wrong as well. Only seers and wolves can claim otherwise. Also I have and will consider other alternatives - and couldn't say you have done that a lot... So how do I get an impression of shining one's boots in front of the audience from here? (If one can put it that way?)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

No, it was here that she said that:



"I know he is allied with the village". Wouldn't that equal innocent?


Okay, yes, it does. Sorry about that, Zil.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

An early head off for me, now - I won't be back before DL.

++Nogrod

His case is a big steaming bucket of double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing, as far as I'm concerned.

Good Night.

[Nerwen]

My frustration comes only from this, that peole don't pick the actual argument and say it's rubbish because, but only say "Nerwen wouldn't have done that" not ewven considering the circumstances etc that the argument relies on.

*sigh* Here we go again: perhaps other people have "considered the circumstances" and found your explanation less likely than mine?

As a general comment, Nog: I don't know whether you're pressed for time, or what it is, but this game you seem to be sort of playing in a bubble. You keep complaining– quite aggressively, too– that other people are ignoring things, when the issues in question have been argued over and over and over.. and you don't seem to have noticed. In other words–

Don't you read what others post? (repeat 7x) :p

EDIT:X'd since Nog at #402.

[Nogrod]

The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?"Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover! :smokin:

When that statement was pointed to yesterday, she responded with these statements-
I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles.

If I had defended myself more you'd now be calling me "defensive" right now, Nogrod. Besides, what was there to say? I tried to adapt an idiom to the setting, just as we'll say "What the Utumno?" in an M-e based game.
These explanations are essentially the same thing that Mac gave to me today- a complete and utter denial of having intended anything at all.

The fact is, Hades would have known going into the day whether or not he was going to hint, and also would have been aware that such hinting was likely to be pointed out. There would be a plan in his head for that eventuality, surely? He would have an explanation ready! So, why didn't Nerwen give a more graceful and intelligent explanation (i.e. claim that she was helping the village by giving Persephone false leadings for instance)?

No- I place her explanation and Mac's in the same boat. Both make me feel better. I may be wrong, but there it is. You may not agree, Nog, but do you see my reasoning?
I see your reasoning but I must say I do disagree, at least partially. It's true they both utterly deny any suspicions on the basis of "I didn't think it that way" - and both are as bad in that, as every wolf would have answered similarly. But I do not think they are essentially the same. Especially your point about how Hades would have done gives me a pause. I mean you might have done all those preparations but I'd guess most of us wouldn't. We all don't have pages of scenarios ready before starting a game or masterplans and their variations for every possible occurence. So from time to time the wolves need to just come up with "an explanation" - graceful or not - and comparing thpose two I find two main differences: a) Mac's explanation looks more or less honest (if you can say that in this game) and Nerwen's looks more like avoiding (especially that what was there to answer about?), and b) comparing the relative merits of the hints they're claimed to have made, you (well I at least) have a believable case with Nerwen and quite a fabricated one with Mac.


Okay. I hope that is it from my part on the issue. I'll try to read something else just to freshen my mind.



ADD: just saw Nerwen's latest... until phantom's post on the issue a moment ago, no one addressed the argument - and even he kind of went just bedside it. Read up above what I'm after (or #390, or my Gods, any post I've made on the issue). I can adjust my mind if someone shows me where my point goes wrong, but as long as no one even considers it, I'm just going to get more and more frustrated. But who cares.

[wilwarin538]

Ok. I'm here, and have spent the last 30 minutes reading. And after the initial frustration and confusion, I think I've come to understand everything *sigh*. So my thoughts.

About the BoroSeer: I don't want to put any stock at all into anything he said, because he could be False. Yeah, he could be legit, but he just as easily might not be and I don't want to run after any hint of anything that could be wrong. Besides, I don't see any real hints about anyone's role except maybe the Mira one, but that would seem to be towards a positive role not a Wolf anyway. Maybe if at some point it becomes clear he *was* the real one, maybe than we can go back and see something useful.

About why BoroSeer died: could be a number of reasons. Maybe the Wolves saw the seer hints in his first post (the ones Phantom pointed out about the seerish words). Maybe they saw the hunter hints and figured the smaller the village was, the more dangerous the hunter is, so they wanted to get rid of him early. Or maybe they just thought he was a useful player and it was a good idea to get rid of him.


Now some comments on a few things:

Don't they teach little seers in elementary school not to make jokes about seers in their first post? Now Boro is dead. :rolleyes:

I had a look at his posts. I agree with phantom that Boro probably didn't try to hint us his alignment. (Unless he dreamt of him, found him a non-wolf, and fooled around with him a little to try to guess whether the role he dreamt of was correct.) His hint to Keeper is strange. There's a ton of things he could have thought she was and I don't understand how he got to suspect any of them. I don't think he tried to hint an Eonwe-wolf to us. Other than the -4-comment he only mentioned him once, telling us that we're talking about him enough. Now, if I knew the identity of a wolf, that's not what I'd tell people to do.

First line made me giggle, and I pretty much agree with the rest. As a side note, I don't get the supposed Hades hints coming from Mac, they seem like a bit of stretch.


So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?


Uh, a) yes and b) a manageable amount of risk. It's better for the Wolves to let one of their own go, then to let the Seer live long enough to reveal the rest of them. And if you were a wolf and he hinted about you, and there was any reason to think him the seer, of course the wolves would want him dead. Wolves don't want to keep the seer alive, and if it points towards one of their own, that's something they have to risk. I really don't like your reasoning here.



On the subject of Steve- I said yesterday I didn't think he looked like Dionysus and I stick by that, so if Boro was the false Seer and dreamed of Steve then I believe he is innocent, as it's unlikely the false dream yielded the correct role. If Boro was the real Seer and dreamed Steve then I was at least right about him not being Dionysus, but obviously we should lynch him for Wolfdom. Bleh. Which is more likely?

Just the fact that the second is even a bit likely should be enough for us to consider lynching him. Mixed with the fact that even if he isn't a wolf, he could still be Dyonisis. I think it would just clear a lot of things up either way.


Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:


There isn't one. Glirdy must have considered it and then forgot to take that out of the Mytho's role discription.


I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue.


I was inclined to think it was just banter, but this actually really does make sense. It does seem almost too obvious for her to throw out the name of her own role like that, but if she assumed their would be a lot of banter then it wouldn't have seemed so crazy. I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one, cause otherwise Nerwen doesn't seem all too bad to me. But I do agree that it is very possible.

About the Mytho: not too much we can do about it, cause I don't *think* Glirdy was planning to hint at what the Mytho may have chosen (could be wrong though). Maybe just watch to see if anyone's behaviour takes a major shift? I dunno.

Uhm. I think that's all I have for now. I really need food, but then after that I should be around a lot. (may even be awake enough to stay up later than usual though probably not all the way til DL).

x'd with Nerwen and Nog

[Lalaith]

A lot of rowing going on, some of which is kind of hard to follow.
Well, I need to make up my mind soon as it is bedtime over here.
So first,....Our Big Beasts. I am actually not inclined to vote for any of these at present. Probably they are just fighting for the hell of it and most of them innocent anyway. Also I believe that the wolves and gifteds will sort out the high profile players – they will surely kill/dream of them at night leaving us with fewer suspects. My thoughts on them anyway…
Rikae…she does love a scrap, guilty or innocent she will never let things lie. I have never been able to tell the difference between a good or bad Rikae and this time is no different.
Nog – lots of talk and noise. Quite a lot of it makes sense but some of it is a bit more bonkers than usual. Why? Could be any number of reasons.
Phantom – definitely touchier than usual but he hasn’t played for a long time.

Next – some of the others who are coming under suspicion/attracting attention today
Mac – now I may be rusty but I don’t get where all this Mac suspicion is coming from. It could be because I was thinking along the same lines about Boro as he was, but he seems quite sensible to me.
Eonwe – now there is more cause for concern here. I agree Boro’s words are open to interpretation. But Eonwe also did something rather unhelpful today which might just have been careless but still…with not much to go on I know but with an early vote needed from me, he is a likely candidate.
Tum – Again, someone who may get my vote. Not happy about her(?) at all. Yesterday she seemed ‘off’, she was arguably the dodgiest of the BG votes and Zil’s case against her today was pretty good.
Nerwen – The Hades thing – well, maybe. If she’s Hades herself, she’s very bold. If she’s Persephone, all she would have needed to do is watch and read, so there would have been no need for such rashness. She’s definitely active and ready to get involved in all the rows.
And the rest…
Nienna – Now I didn’t much like her post today. She covered just a few players, only to say that she didn’t have a feel for half of them. Seemed overly desultory and posting-for-the-sake-of-it, although she might have just been RL busy.
Mira/Keeper – the whole Boro interchange yesterday was weird and I am not happy about her in general.
Shasta – comes, makes a few reasonably sensible statements and goes off again.
Folwren, see above, much like Shasta. Could be anything. I know some of you have said the same about me so it’s only fair to reserve judgment.
Lottie – I don’t know, I thought she seemed thoughtful yesterday but odd today. Reserving judgment
Zil – I liked the case he made against Tum, and he seemed to be unhappy about Nienna’s post as was I. as with Mac, I tend to trust those who seem to be thinking the way I do, so…
Sally – like I said, I thought she was acting oddly yesterday but I feel better about her today
Greenie – active, thoughtful and clearly trying to be fair – so I trust her for now
Wilwa – not seen her around as much today but seemed helpful yesterday so I’m quite at ease with her
Kath – her voice was ever soft, gentle and low, an excellent thing in woman, I suppose, but not necessarily during WW. Come on girl, check in and lets hear what you’ve got to say…

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp
The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?"
Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover!
Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of. Yes (as I realised after the event) that mention of Hades could, in principle, have been a hint.

But it wasn't. That's all there is to say. I am not Hades, and that comment was not meant to be a hint of any kind, just colour.

People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?

EDIT:X'd with Wilwa and Lalaith.

[Nogrod]

Few general issues then.

Looking at Boro's hints I find it disturbing - like Rikae suggested - that his first post was clearly thought of and he made tp the central character of it. Was it to do what he "knew" about him or just a vehicle by which to build his seer-hint? I don't know.

All that Mira thing sounds odd - as several people have said. I could see some general confusion-making behind it but to ask for protection that way? It doesn't sound like Boro - at least if that was what he "knew" thus excluding all other "knowledge" of people. Or if he just wanted to trick people thinking he was the lover of someone (someone I think entertained that idea already) - nice cover against wolves at Night but seemingly not working...

(Btw. using parenthesis with the word "knowledge" just because we don't know if he was the real or the false seer)

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:
Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.
Voting Eonwë he then said this:
I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4
So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?


Hah, I see things happening... needs to stop and read...

[Rikae]

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

Ok, Nog, I see what you're missing here; however, I don't seem to be able to explain it without implied swearing. :rolleyes:
Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.

[Nerwen]

Ok, Nog, I see what you're missing here; however, I don't seem to be able to explain it without implied swearing. :rolleyes:
Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.
Exactly. I was referring to Hades the place. I'm sure I explained that yesterDay.

[autume98]

I haven't gone through all the thread yet, but I do want to post my reasoning for the reason I voted BG yesterday since I've noticed a few concerns.

The reason I didn't vote for Mac yesterday is simply because I wanted to keep Eonwe around for a little bit longer. At the time Eonwe was also being looked at being lynched. At the time specualation was that he may be Dionysis, and I wasn't ready to lynch him yesterDay. I felt like we should keep him around and in order to do that I had to vote for BG. If I would've had enough people on my side I would've voted for Mac.

[Folwren]

I'm about half way through treading page 10, I think. I've got to know - who the blazes is 'Tum'? I keep seeing that name, but to my memory, there is no player with that screen name, and I know that Downers have nick-names, but I don't know 'em all. At first I thought it was the Phantom, but he has other names. Is it autume98? People call her(him?) autume.

So, I'm confused, and the name 'Tum' comes up a lot.

Sorry.

I'm sitll reading. I doubt I'll have time to post anything of value as most of my reading is speed reading anyway. I probably won't vote today. :( This is really crummy.

[Nerwen]

I'm about half way through treading page 10, I think. I've got to know - who the blazes is 'Tum'?
That would be the poster above you.

[Nogrod]

Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of.
...
People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.I'm not saying I'm doing something terribly clever. One of the best reasons to have a slight trust on Mac is that he was the one to point it out. The problem is that people are not doing what you claim, eg. saying "I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". That part has been really lacking. But anyway, as I said, I'm more than fed with that issue right now. They're clearly not lynching you toDay so let it be - and I will let it be. And I'll probably vote for another toDay myself anyway.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?No. I'm taking in all the alternative points possible. I have not said "I know you're a wolf" (how could I?) and I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick). It's just you're the best - or the second best bet I have right now. And those can change -and do change as the game goes on. My frustration has been more of the nature of "don't you freakin see what I mean" (the answer is generally no - Wilwa seems to have been one of the few who realised what I meant) than that "I need to get you hanged". I have nothing against you as such - and it is possible that at some point if I get reason to trust you - I will defend you as well as I can.

I need to get a wolf hanged, a wolf. Not you especially or anyone else. But the one who looks the m0ost suspicious to me with the information available at the time.

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him :rolleyes:), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

[Kath]

Warning: stream of consciousness.

The major Nog/Greenie/phantom argument is revolving around the idea of hints, yes? Basically, that hints were seen in Boro's posts, and it turned out that rather than the Hades hint that everyone leaped on being an actual hint, it was those relating to being the Seer that was in fact real. I'm not quite sure where I'm going here. It just feels like a lot of people are saying 'well look Boro's hints turned out to be truthful ... therfore Nerwen's and Mac's potential hints must also be right'. But Nerwen mentioned Hades not anything else (that I noticed - though I didn't notice Boro's Seer hints so that's not saying much) - and Boro's Hades 'hint' turned out to be nothing. I'm confusing myself. It just feels slightly hypocritical I think. If you'd been right about Boro hinting to be Hades you can't be right about Boro hinting to be the Seer and vice versa - he wasn't both. Also, whatever hints Boro may or may not have left, and whether he was the true Seer or the false Seer - it is likely we'll need more than the evidence from one Day to be able to read a huge amount into them.

In short (ish) - those who are focused so heavily on these hints seem suspicious to me. I know, I know that right now these are interesting and discussion-producing ... but the focus is causing these major ructions that are a beautiful distraction whether for the current loudmouths or for those who are quietly letting them get on with it.

Couple of questions probably aimed at the Mod - do we get any information in the narrations as to what has happened with the Mythomaniac? I think I saw that asked earlier but didn't see an answer. Will we know if we've not got more wolves? Also, there were questions about the Cobbler - is there a Cobbler as a separate role or is the Cursed pretty much a Cobbler?

Then there was the Eonwe/Dionysus business. I don't really know Eonwe's playing style. There are players who might well announce their role (within the boundaries of the game) Day 1 and sit back to watch everyone argue it out. Fea comes to mind. Is Eonwe that bold a player?

I'm glad those who were a bit quieter yesterDay seem to be back toDay and getting involved. :) In this game I don't think so many quiet players are likely to be lynched - Blind Guardian was probably a bit of an exception and unlucky to be playing in a game with so many veterans who just wanted to get on with it. That said, and despite my appalling hypocrisy here given I'm going to manage one post toDay, I hope the attention keeps up. Like I said, with loudmouths arguing it's too easy for quieter players to slip under the radar ... not actually that we have that many.

Anyway. Bedtime for me, especially as I'm starting to ramble. So from what I've said above my main suspects have to be Nogrod, phantom and Greenie. Nog and phantom have both reacted over-zealously, bringing emotion and sarcasm into play much more than Greenie which sort of logically makes me suspect them more. Nog I have seen act this way before. phantom I don't recall having done it. phantom is generally calm (as I recall) when suspected as a wolf, but I wouldn't put it past him to put on a show to negate that. Nog's 'do you read what other's post thing' I found quite odd and actually quite rude, and despite having seen him overreact in this way before this does seem to have blown up over two different ways of looking at a point - a dichotomy he has accepted in the past.

So:

++NOGROD

And my apologies for being missing toDay. I've been in my house a grand total of an hour and a half toDay!

[Nerwen]

Bt,. I wonder if we should add a list of players' nicknames to that Glossary thread? The ones that aren't self-explanatory, anyway. You know, like "Steve", or "Stick".

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Folwren]

Hey....guys? I know I don't have much weight here or anything, and I know I haven't added much to the conversation, but...I don't think that we should lynch Nogrod tonight. I know I'm sticking my neck out to defend him, but I kind of think that he shouldn't be killed just yet.

But my opinion is even stronger concerning The Phantom. Through what I've read today, it seems to me that he's pretty innocent, if not gifted (in a good way).

I don't know about anyone else. My reading over today's posts has been very fast, very poor, and not very indepth. I don't have many ideas on anyone else, other than Phantom being innocent. So, later this evening I'll try to read things better and maybe post something more informative, and maybe vote.

-- Foley

[Eönwë]

Anyway, the list, though I suppose it became a little 'stream-of-conciousness-y' about halfway through writing it.


In the Mod of the gods' order:

Wilwa- Not sure. Her first three posts are mostly about it being strange that Boro separated Zeus from the other lovers, and insisting on that being important, which basically led to the whole Boro-Zeus-hints thing. Later she rescinds the matter and accepts what Boro says about Zeus being the good side. She then rejects the Zeus/Hades thing but considers the Cursed hypothesis a bit more. She also raises an interesting (and still unanswered) point about how a Cursed will show up when dead. But then she ruins a lot of the positive feeling I had about her by being the 4th vote for BG, which makes her two votes ahead of me, and basically makes it become a true bandwaggon, which could (and eventually does) lead to her death. And though she seems innocent the rest of the time, this does almost balance it out. I suspect that she may be a Lover (probably the innocent half).

Kath- Has three posts, which is too little to form a proper opinion on. But I don't think her vote for BG looks bad. It was the first vote for her, and she casts it for reasonable reasons (Er, yeah, bad phrasing, but I can't think of any other way to say it right now). And the rest of her last post seems generally innocent. But a quiet Kath is an unreadable Kath, and when she is quiet (which is usually) you can never see if she's evil until it's too late.

Mira- Hasn't actually said anything other than that she doesn't think that any of the god mentions are hints/slips. A BG voter, but if it's true that she x-ed with all those people, then I suppose it's reasonable.

Zil- Sneaky and cunning. As usual. He could be on any side at the moment, but I'm inclined to think that he's on the good side, at least for now. His suspicions seem justified (You know, except for the Cursed thing, but I suppose it was almost a generally accepted fact yesterDay) and his dfgfdg. He cast the second vote for BG, and that means that it changed her from a suspicion into a viable lynch-choice, which in hindsight seems bad, but I suppose at the time was probably quite justified. And I would have written off the long autume post as a pointless way to look helpful, but the last three lines show that he may really be onto something.

Lottie- Tons of banter and silliness, but some good stuff too. I didn't (and still don't) really agree with her about the False Seer leaving behind clues that suggest false Sight. For example, look at Boro. We can't even tell what his normal clues are! Most of her posts are one liners, but the serious ones make sense and/or good points. One problem though is that she accused Tum and Mac of being evil and then held her vote until near the end, meaning that she couldn't vote for either of them without it being a throwaway, which could be an easy tactic so that she doesn't seem too determined to get anyone killed and just voted what she thought was the lesser of two evils. It would be nice if she was innocent, but I'm not completely sure.

Nienna- Her first post makes sense (where she talks about the false Seer on our side), but in her last two posts she seems easily (maybe too easily) convinced that I'm the Cursed. In terms of talking about who she finds suspicious, her three post go something like this:
1. No suspicions yet -> 2. Mentioning Dionysus makes Eonwe look Cursed -> 3. That's enough to make me lynch Eonwe.
Other than me, she only says that she "doesn't particularly like" Zil's vote. She seems like she's just focused on targeting me, which as an innocent would mean that she could miss other things, but could also suggest that she's evil and just trying to shift/keep discussion focused on me (like Nogrod tried to do, but I'll get to him later), so that either I get killed because that Dionysus thing made me an easy target, or it shifts away focus from other, more sinister things. Or both. She doesn't look good to me.

Nerwen- Too many posts to look at right now, but seems innocent as far as I can tell.

Folwren- Not sure about her. She has some reasonable observations in her first post, but then tries to devalue them by saying they're worth even less than the usual 'just two cents'. Also, she asks us to not to "read too much into this vote," which is never a good thing to say when you're voting. And she calls her reasoning for voting me "pathetic". Again, that makes it sound suspicious when it most probably isn't (and she's just being honest about how she feels her post is). And it was early Day 1, and there wasn't much to go on, so perhaps we can forgive her for that. I've never played with her before, but she seems quite innocent to me.

Tum- Not going to go into much detail, but I generally agree with Inzil's long post. And I don't think she's posted toDay, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Lalaith- Speaks sense and wisdom, as usual. So I have no idea what she is, but what she's said seems helpful so far, so I'd like to see her stay for now at least.

Greenie- Not sure what to think about her at all. In general she seems reasonable and resistant to following Nogrod's poorly reasoned theory that I am the Cursed, which he seems to be sticking to no matter what. And no, not just because it's me. She does generally seem innocent to me, but something (I'm not sure what) seems a bit off.

Rikae- Worryingly has more posts than our favourite (or maybe not, depending on your preference) ghost. See Nerwen, but she doesn't seem as innocent.

Shasta- Missed most of yesterDay, still seems to be catching up toDay. Don't really know yet.

Mac- Talks sense. A lot. But on the first Day, I think he focused too much on Lovers, and I don't think it's out of the question for him to be one. I also liked his 'Day 1 in 3 stages' thing at the time, but now I think that that could have also been thought up by a Wolf-Mac. I'm not sure about his vote, but other than that he's looking better and better as the game goes on. And toDay, his talk of lovers has gone. Perhaps he's Hephaestus, and is now just a wolf now that his lover is dead. Of course, the fact that he didn't vote BG is of little matter because it's highly unlikely that he found her on Night 1. But he does correct Nerwen to tell her that the third wolf lover is Hephaestus, not Ares, which might be hint towards his true nature, especially since the follows it with the "frustrating to be alone" sentence, which many have taken as a Lover hint. The way Mac posts looks quite innocent, but the content just seems like he is possibly a Lover/Wolf (My guess would be Hephaestus). He definitely needs to be watched.

Nog- I think he deserves a post of his own, but for now I'll say that I don't like what I'm seeing.

Phantom- See Nerwen. Only I don't like how he's playing and I think maybe we should get rid of him before he ends up controlling the village without us realising.

Sally- Has posted much less than usual, but I think that's due to internet problems and stuff, so I'm not too worried yet. But still, long posts from Sally seem a bit unusual. And though most of her posts are just banter and silliness the little time she spends talking about serious matters, she makes sense and seems innocent. On the other hand, I'm not too keen on her BG argument. It seems a bit of a stretch, even for Day 1, and may just have been a way to justify cementing the BG-waggon. It also allows her to distance herself from the two bangwaggons yesterDay, while contributing to one, which would be quite a clever ploy. But I have to admit it does sound a bit too far-fetched to be a wolfish ploy, so she's probably just an innocent. And it also happens that the BG-vote was at a time when I was tied for highest number of votes with her, so it may just have been that she felt that even though the BG theory was far-fetched, she still seemed more suspicious than me at the time to her. I don't know.


So, in summary:

Innocent:

Seem alright:
Sally
Lalaith
Nerwen
Zil

No idea:
Greenie
Folwren
Lottie

Not enough posts:
Shasta (no idea)
Mira (no idea)
Kath (leaning innocent)

Not so good:
Rikae
Wilwa

Evil Tendencies:
Nienna
Tum
Phantom

Evil:
Nog
Mac


I also just want to note that it's not good that a dead Boro has more posts than four still-living players.

Note: I will write another post for Nerwen, Rikae and Phantom tomorrow/toMorrow depending on how early I wake up. Right now I want to focus on Nogrod.

I'm not even going to bother editing, because I'm sure hundreds (Ok, slight exaggeration) of people will have posted since my last post.

[Eönwë]

And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos.I knew that, I just mentioned Kath's post because that's what prompted me to reread.

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear. That's what I was hoping- I was just bothered by the fact that he kept the word Cobbler in there.

[Nogrod]

Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.I must confess, I don't understand that at all! I mean what the _____? Yeah, I know what is Hades, the place, but what the ____ it has to do with anything here?

But now I need to know. Really.

Do you mean there is something like a curse or saying that is widely-used in English-speaking countries (at least both Australia and the US.) that is used in a situation anywhere similar or comparable to the one we faced as players in the beginning of the game? And what is that reference to a "negative(???) non-christian underwolrd"? Why didn't you just say Hades, the dwelling of the dead, if that is what you mean? So did you just mean "Where the F? Where the F is Hades?" or did that christianity stuff have some other meaning in there? Sorry, communication's hard sometimes.

When more than the number of wolves and the wannabes (cursed & mytho) tell me that is a usual thing to say when in trouble, I'll promise to reconsider (a wise wolf would use that chance to be sure, it would even make it a better hint, less obvious - but would also explain easier the choice of Hades there).

And anyway, if that is a common curse, why didn't someone just say that a long time ago? It would have made it a different case.

BLah. Could you stop coming up with things concerning this speacial case? I'd like to do something else - and get to bed! :confused:

[Lalaith]

Oh curse these early votes. So difficult to decide.
Well as things stand it is between Eonwe and autume for me. Now Tum hasn't even been on today to defend herself, so it seems harsh to vote for her...I'm going to go for Eonwe. As I said before, there's a reasonable Boro-based case against him and the something else too.

++ Eonwe

[Eönwë]

Ok, well my mind's stopped functioning, so I'll try to wake up early and get my Nog-post and vote in before the DL. And now I won't try to write anything Ancient-Greece themed or mention any Greek gods because otherwise it'll be misinterpreted as a hint of some sort.

[Nerwen]

I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick).
But not my actual explanation– I think I said this pretty clearly yesterDay– which is that it wasn't a "God-pick" at all, but rather that I was using "Hades" = abode of the dead = "hell" (roughly). I was making a joke of using a "Greek" version of the common English profanity, "what the h---". It didn't occur to me that it could be taken any other way, though I admit that was rather stupid of me. Now do you understand?

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him :rolleyes:), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.
Some of it was a stretch, like the "being alone in this" stuff. Yet, Mac did seem particularly occupied with the Hades/Persephone topic, and I can see how some of his early comments might look like hints. I think it was worth asking him to explain, anyway. So I do think "framing" is an extreme way to describe it.

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

Sure.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Nog- you've never heard English speaking people exclaim "What the h---?!" before? Yes, it's quite common, and seeing as Hades is an oft used substitute for h--- the expression is quite understandable.

Anyway, need to catch up on what's been happening...

[Lalaith]

Just realised... as everyone is so obsessed with hints and word-clues, I think I need to clarify that my use of the word 'curse' just there meant I was cross and any resemblance to any ww role living or dead is entirely co-incidental. Nightynight. :rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Do you mean there is something like a curse or saying that is widely-used in English-speaking countries (at least both Australia and the US.) that is used in a situation anywhere similar or comparable to the one we faced as players in the beginning of the game? And what is that reference to a "negative(???) non-christian underwolrd"? Why didn't you just say Hades, the dwelling of the dead, if that is what you mean? So did you just mean "Where the F? Where the F is Hades?" or did that christianity stuff have some other meaning in there? Sorry, communication's hard sometimes.
*headdesk*
So that's what it's all about. You really didn't know.

EDIT:X'd since last post.

[satansaloser2005]

Is it possible for us to stop talking about curses? Please? :(

Of course, talking about curseds is fine. ;)


I'm here for a bit and will poke together a list as I snack on my tasty pasta. Back soon.

[Nerwen]

Is it possible for us to stop talking about curses? Please? :(
Well, I hope so.:rolleyes:

Here's something to talk about, which I raised earlier: Blind Guardian did, I think, drop a hint about her role. I never picked it up until after she died, but it's possible Hephaestus was looking a bit harder.

It may be worth seeing if anyone seemed to be particularly protective of her. (Or to be hinting back, perhaps– though look where searching for hints has got us...)

[autume98]

Just want to make sure everyone saw my post. I noticed a couple of people had missed it. Look here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=635333&postcount=414) to see my post explaining my vote.

[Nogrod]

Nog- you've never heard English speaking people exclaim "What the h---?!" before? Yes, it's quite common, and seeing as Hades is an oft used substitute for h--- the expression is quite understandable.
So it was not the other four-letter curse that starts with F but the one which starts with H (and thence the christianity-stuff)? Okay. Now I see. I'm clearly too used to that f-word or at least seeing it being censored. Then it makes perfect sense he-l and hades are interchangeable enough to explain the choice.

But like I said, it actually makes it so much better as hints go... but enough of it now. :)

It's so healthy to find oneself a total dummy every once in a while. :o

Although I must add that that kind of humour where one changes words in a sentence or syllables in a word is pretty hard to a non-native because the associations don't bring up naturally but need to be specifically searched for - and it thus requires you to need to know now is time to search for one.


Well, I see enough vultures gathering around already on another front so let's end this for the moment. I'd like to have a look on a few things before getting to sleep - and they must be fed, mustn't they? :D

[autume98]

Well, I hope so.:rolleyes:

Here's something to talk about, which I raised earlier: Blind Guardian did, I think, drop a hint about her role. I never picked it up until after she died, but it's possible Hephaestus was looking a bit harder.

It may be worth seeing if anyone seemed to be particularly protective of her. (Or to be hinting back, perhaps– though look where searching for hints has got us...)

It looks like she did give a hint here:

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. :) Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?


Not sure if anyone picked up on the hint. I'll will have to go back and see.

[the phantom]

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose.
Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.
I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.
Voting Eonwë he then said this:

I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4
So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?
Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

[wilwarin538]

I feel like making a list:


Look good to me

Lalaith: I feel quite good about, makes good sense.
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Nerwen: though I get what Nog was trying to say, I'm going to give Nerwen the benefit of the doubt here, I really think it was just banter.
Rikae: just seems like regular Rikae to me

Under my reindeer/not enough posts

Tum
Nienna
Zil (but he's posted a lot, so I don't know why, just nothing has stood out I guess)
Lottie
Mira
Shasta

Iffy/Confused about, but not necessarily willing to vote for

Sally: I can't even explain why, it's purely a gut a thing, and the usual confusion that comes along with her.
Phantom: cause he's the Phantom, and ya never know with him. But he seems to be fairly logical, and I don't see what's so touchy about his posts. I really wouldn't want to get rid of a big poster though either. So I'll stick with being 'wary of' but not willing to get rid of yet.
Folwren: she seems to constantly be second guessing herself, or making it sound like we should overlook her posts or not take them seriously. Which I find fairly odd.
Greenie: plain and simple, I just have no idea.
Nog: mostly is quite reasonable, but he accuses tp of being touchy, and then seems quite touchy himself. And even though I understand his point about Nerwen, I just feel like he got overly sensitive about people not agreeing with him (even if there was some confusion about english curse words). But again, like the Phantom, I'd hate to get rid of a big poster so early.
Eonwe: the Dyonisis thing still is very odd, and is still taking up a lot of discussion. And his one defense that I pointed out in my first post of the Day was quite strange. I *think* I'd be willing to vote him, if not mostly just to clear up a few things.

So Eonwe is an option, but I would much rather have more solid suspicions then just a little reference, coupled with the curiosity of what he is. But I still have quite a few more hours to decide.

x'ed with bunches

[autume98]

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! :eek: I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post. :rolleyes:

Edit: x-ed with tp and wilwa

[the phantom]

*laughs at Tum*

Why do you want us to ignore your last post? BG did in fact make a beauty reference in it, so it still fits.

[wilwarin538]

Just realised I think I forgot Mac. He would go in my OK with category, cause I don't think he was hinting at being Hades, just seems like a stretch (I get the reasoning behind thinking he was hinting, but I just don't think it's likely). And besides that he just seems reasonable.

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post.

Actually, that quote still works. As the Goddess of Love and Beauty, and she said "where I get my good looks from".

x'ed with phantom

[Nogrod]

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.I know you like to play mind-games and test people; and that requires "making things up". Many of us do that to check how people react to them etc. And really, being the only one having an opinion and complaining about it is nothing odd (I should know!), the scripture-reference should be hewn overboard in this case just because the reference will not be familiar to most native-speakers either (unless active learned christians, I suppose?), and we all, well quite a host of us, talked about needing to find the hints (what else have we actually discussed if I may ask?). So saying that becasue of those Mac is especially suspicious? Stretched, yes. I would say more than that but sadly miss the vocabulary to more refinedly say a fabrication... framed was the one that came to mind. And you do frame when you test, don't you?

Anyway, I like it far better now.

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).I do actually lean on voting for Eonwë (his actions toDay haven't exactly made him look better) and do not have too much time, so could you tell me what makes you think Boro was the false seer rather than the true one? I mean he didn't know it himself which one he was and thus you can't read it from his behaviour, so what's your view?

[Nerwen]

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! :eek: I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post. :rolleyes:

Edit: x-ed with tp and wilwa

The possible hint I'm talking about was in that post– it's the bit about her "good looks".

[autume98]

So after going over BG's posts again, this time looking for something to do with love and beauty. I came up with nothing. I don't see one iota of a hint that she tried to give her partner Hephaestus.

[the phantom]

And I see you can add Lalaith and Wilwa to the list of people who have called me "touchy" or similar. Has it really been that long since people have seen an innocent Phantom under fire? :eek:

I even recall someone (SPM perhaps?) back in the day pointing out that I was doing my usual hysterical thing under fire, and in another game I recall being asked to stop shouting so much (typing in all caps) because I was angry.

Are all the ancient ones gone? Kuru? Fordim? Anguirel? Where are you? :D

[Nogrod]

Talking about finding anomalies...
I feel like making a list:
Look good to me
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Oh my! That (ADDED: Kath's post) was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...

[wilwarin538]

And I see you can add Lalaith and Wilwa to the list of people who have called me "touchy" or similar. Has it really been that long since people have seen an innocent Phantom under fire? :eek:

I even recall someone (SPM perhaps?) back in the day pointing out that I was doing my usual hysterical thing under fire, and in another game I recall being asked to stop shouting so much (typing in all caps) because I was angry.

Are all the ancient ones gone? Kuru? Fordim? Anguirel? Where are you? :D

Phantom, I said I didn't see what was touchy about your posts.


And Tum dear, BG's post *did* have an Aphrodite hint. And many people have pointed it out.

[autume98]

*laughs at Tum*

Why do you want us to ignore your last post? BG did in fact make a beauty reference in it, so it still fits.

So she did. I think I just made a fool of myself. :o I did not see anyone who responded to it so it doesn't help us find her partner.

[wilwarin538]

Talking about finding anomalies...
Oh my! That was the most un-educated and well, muddled up post I've seen for a while. I mean she totally messed things up, like talking about Boro's Hades-hints (which?) being an issue or generally just saying that most that we have actually achieved is suspicious.

It's clear Kath has not have time to read or to think. She actually more or less admits it in her post. And that's fine. Everyone does not have time everyDay. And she's also a most lovable person. But still, and because of that, her post doesn't in any case earn that praise Wilwa makes of it. Which makes me wonder what the purpose of that praise was...


That was kind of the point that I was ok with it. She clearly didn't have a lot of time to read or post, and yet still managed to at least somewhat touch on the big subjects. I didn't say that it made a ton of sense, just that I appreciated her effort, which is much more than other less active people have done. It was far better than just saying "oh, I have no time to even try and post so I'll just vote random".

[the phantom]

I do actually lean on voting for Eonwë (his actions toDay haven't exactly made him look better) and do not have too much time, so could you tell me what makes you think Boro was the false seer rather than the true one? I mean he didn't know it himself which one he was and thus you can't read it from his behaviour, so what's your view?
My leaning towards him as the false Seer is more or less because Eonwe just hasn't looked that bad to me, and that seems to be the obvious dream.

As I stated before, yesterday he didn't look bad to me because I thought his Dionysus comment was done in honesty, not to mention that if he was Dionysus Boro couldn't have spotted him, thus suspecting him for that today seems completely counter-productive. What other reason is there to suspect him?

At this point the best reason I see to vote for him is just to give it a logical try- i.e. he's the most likely dream plus it would be a possible clue to the badness of others seeing as he was a lynching suspect yesterday. The only problem is he hasn't felt bad to me, and I'd kick myself for going against my judgement. But then going against logic is bad too. :rolleyes:

Meh. In general I just don't like this situation.

Anyway, I have to leave right this instant! I'll be back for the final two/three hours.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, don't be such a drama ghost. :rolleyes: (This in response to Phantom's #443.)


Okay, so here's a rough list of how I feel about people. Don't think I can stay much longer, alas. I'm sorry, but I won't be back once I leave (until toMorrow of course).


Good:
Nienna
Greenie
Kath
Dun
Rikae
Lottie


Not sure:
Lal (think she's pretty safe, but I never can read her)
Phantom (he looks innocent, but something's not quite right)
Tum (she looks really confused, but I may smell a plotting newbie....I'll look at her)
Mac (I'm clearly missing something, so I'll have to look at him....but meh?)
Stick (confusing me with....nothing....hence the problem)
Shasta (not getting a darn thing on him)


Not so good:
Foley (she said she thought Phantom could be a gifted....that's never an innocent thing to say)
Nog (he's just....weird, and doesn't seem like an innocent Nog, toDay's confusing discussion about language aside)
Nerwen (I don't suspect her, thus she must be something....it better be evil)
Steve (he's responding strangely to all this attention, and while I think his Dionysus thing was fine I still think he's evil)


I'm not sure who I'll be voting for yet, but I won't be voting four my first category, that's for sure. After all, I love 'em so! :D


ETA: Did I get the right number of baddies? If so, it was unintentional, I swears.

[satansaloser2005]

Bugger this. I'm too tired to leave. *slacks* I'll be back with more in-depth thoughts.

[Nogrod]

Today's votes so far...

Greenie -> Mac
Shasta -> Nogrod
Kath -> Nogrod 2
Lalaith -> Eonwë

Some remarks of skimming (really skimming) through the thread.

There was this incredible "taming of Mac" that took place. I had totally forgotten it. What happened? I mean the to and fro between Mac and tp ending in the sugariest ending I've seen in a while... :p

Shasta may be having time-issues but if he has he had relatively long time to post his short remarks.. but the problem is he seems to be going only where the wind seems to blow. So yesterDay he was for lynching Eonwë and toDay Mac and me - and after tp said Mac was alright he didn't feel such an urge to go after him either... you have a nice padawan Obie phantom, but they should learn some independence. Also his reasons for voting me were interesting: His case is a big steaming bucket of double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing, as far as I'm concernedReally? In this game where everyone - but one - has an increased reason to hide and to bluff. It was not too much of a reason - especially looking at the other side: what would an intelligent wolf do? Be pleasing, nice, reasonable... and not run amok like a teenage hurricane... And as we're on it, what was it actually, Shasta? If you say someone is fishy come forwards and tell why and in which way. Otherwise I'll call your elementary attempt at bluffing back.

So as you see, I didn't like it. Not so much that it was a vote for me, but because it seemed like too calculated to not stand out - that it actually stood out... SO do not let him get easy on Days to come.

Unless something drastic happens, my vote will go to Eonwë. Reasons to follow suite.

[autume98]

I've been sitting here and skimming through the posts seeing if something would catch my eye. I went through the BG votes and I didn't really see anything suspicious there. So I thought I'd take a look at the Eonwe voters. And of course the one that really struck me was the vote from Boro.

I am interested in finding out what Eonwe's role is. I also took another look at his posts from yesterday. He did bring up quite a bit of Greek mythology in his posts yesterday. Another question to ask: Would Eonwe be so blatant as to say "Wolf!" in his first post?

Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Hokay so. Work today was brutal. All I want is to sleep and not think. (Yes, that is my excuse for never being around).

The one solid(ish) thing that is sticking in my addled mind is that phantom is making a weird amount of sense. Usually he just confuses me and makes me want him dead. This could be considered a point of concern.

Also, still not all that stoked on Boro indicating that I'm a ranger. If I was, I'd be quite annoyed for being pointed out (and thus probably dead toNight) but the fact that I have no idea where he got that from whatsoever really concerns me. It also leads me to not put too much stake in the theories that Steve is a wolf and phantom is Zeus.

Of course, now with a lack of easy bandwagons to jump on, I'm at a total loss of who to vote for toDay. There's a legitimate chance I won't be voting in order to avoid another weak vote out of sheer annoyance.

ADD: I am interested in finding out what Eonwe's role is. I also took another look at his posts from yesterday. He did bring up quite a bit of Greek mythology in his posts yesterday. Another question to ask: Would Eonwe be so blatant as to say "Wolf!" in his first post?

Well clearly he was. :p

[Nogrod]

Alright.

Looking at Boro's posting the only believable seer hint - let's say unambiguos - is the one concerning Eonwë being -4 damage to us innocents. THat's actually quite boldly said if the scale has been made with innocent dying being between +1-10.

Now there are two clear "buts" involved.
1) Boro might be the false seer and thus his dream is incorrect. (although a cursed might appear as a wolf or a wolf as a cursed - among other roles available, just to remind you there are those possibilities as well)
2) Why would have Boro picked Eonwë as his first dream? There could have been more like "usual suspects"? (but then again, he has been an amazing seer thus far and sometimes seers go their ways)

But on top of that there are a few things.

Eonwë's toying with the "Wolf! There you had it!" and the stuff about Dionysos from Day1. He defended the way some others had already suggested by saying it was too obvious. Once again: a thing may look obvious when pointed out but when going with the flow it's not obvious unless you're looking for it. That's the way the hints get through, being obvious enough to one who looks for it but not obvious enough to one whop doesn't look for it - unless some maddening person brings them forwards for all to see...

And the fact, that it's probably not only the wolves who try to assure us it was too obvious but maybe also some innocents think like that, actually speaks in favour of my theory. If an innocent thinks it's too obvious then it wouldn't have been one.

And actually there was also this in the last minutes: But isn't the Cursed meant to play on the side of the village until they become a wolf?I do read that as the classical "hey, I'm ignorant of that possibility" -defence which is always quite suspicious. I think that from the discussion we'd had we had quite clearly come to the conclusion that there is a flaw in the rules where the cursed is given the knowledge of him being the cursed thus making it possible for the cursed to play from the beginning as the wannabe-wolf.

But could he be a wolf? Well... Boro said he would be -4 damage to us if killed, so what would he give for a wolf and what for a cursed?

My main reason for my heightened suspicions on him toDay is this: So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?I read it, and read it again, and re-read it... and I was almost giving up, going back to Nerwen, or anyone... The first part of it just looks soo uninformed and boldly ignorant... so an innocent accused by the false seer or just a cursed we could and maybe even should wait for to lynch untill there is a sign of someone turning into a wolf (like Glirdy promised to let us know from the narration). But then the latter part really struck on me.

Let me quote it once again: Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?Wouldn't that be more than a little risky? For an innocent Eonwë? Who was voted for no reason by the seer?

What risk would the wolves have had if their kill pointed at an innocent Eonwë?

And it's clear to everyone, if the possible seer was right and named X as a wolf, then it is the most risky for the wolves to let the possible seer to live - even if it costs one of them the next Day. And someone voting firmly "with no reason at all" is the benchmark of a seer...

And with four wolves, possibly more in the future, they could afford it nicely...


So how does this go together with my initial "cursed"-suspicion?

There's the enigmatic number -4. Was Boro trying to hint he was not that big a baddie or just trying to protect himself not going outright naming him -10 or somethig? I don't know.

Those of you who though Eonwë was not making cursed hints - as those would have been too bold - should think of the following though. How about a wolf-Eonwë? Maybe they discussed it and thought we would not lynch the possible cursed so one of them trying to pose as one could slip under the radar that way? Actually that would be quite a nice idea: provoking exactly the reaction some of you had - and what's most desirable, the idea of "let's not lynch him". What a perfect hiding-place for a wolf...

So looking at all that I must say:

++ Eonwë


EDIT: add a reading instruction - this is a "dramatically build-post" aka. the motive is opened bit by bit like my thought processes went, from cursed to wolf...

[Macalaure]

We should force Nog to go to bed. (Yes, he just voted, but we all know that that doesn't mean anything.) He's doesn't seem to be himself, but he doesn't seem like Wolf-Nog either - more like jetlag-Nog.
The whole hell/Hades debate with all the trying-to-not-imply-swearing is hilarious!

Greenie - toMorrow we're giving your warm, soft side a turn, ok? ;)

I don't really understand what Shasta's reasons for voting Nogrod are. "His case is a big steaming bucket of double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing" sounds weird.

Eonwe, may I paraphrase your case against me as "Mac looks really, really good actually but there are a few far-fetched things that might mean he could be a wolf"? Also, you end your case against me with "He needs to be watched" and then put me in the highest "Evil" category. Consistency that is not.

There was this incredible "taming of Mac" that took place. I had totally forgotten it. What happened? I mean the to and fro between Mac and tp ending in the sugariest ending I've seen in a while...

"The Taming of the Mac"? :D Somebody else already did that job. ;)
Anyway, I think you're interpreting much more drama into it than there was. Phantom tested me a little, I joked about it, then a few people ran away with it, I clarified it (a little annoyed), phantom bought my explanation, peace, love, happiness.
(Except for poor Shasta, who based his accusations on it.)

Now there are two clear "buts" involved.

Third but: The only other time Boro mentions Eonwe he does so quite half-heartedly. Doesn't fit if he was his dream and found evil. He would have encouraged people's suspicions, at least subtly.
You're really too fixated on Eonwe's guilt.

[wilwarin538]

So, I have to vote and leave, cause there's some family stuff going on and I just can't stay on anymore.

++Eonwe

Sorry, I just, can't stay on tonight, I have to deal with all this.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. A very busy RL day, and an insane amount of posting here. I can't recall ever seeing anything like this number of posts by Day 2! It's quite a lot to read through, but I think I've pretty well caught up.

Seems as if Nog, tp, Rikae, Nerwen, and to a lesser extent, Mac have been most in the spotlight toDay.

Of those, let's see...

Rikae I think I'm surprisingly all right with, for the time being.

Mac: Ehhh.....I still don't trust him enough to put him in the clear, but I won't be voting for him toDay.

tp: It's been a long time since I've played with him, and the only trustworthy phantom is a deceased phantom ;), but he doesn't seem evil right now.

Nerwen: Every time I trust her it seems to bite me, and every time I suspect her she seems to be innocent. I can't really find fault with her though. I don't remember who said it, but I agree that it's hard to see her being so blatant with a Hades hint, even if she did think she might have the cover of eveyone else speaking similarly. I want to believe her that it was a throwaway remark.

And Nog? I don't remember innocent Nog being so single-minded as he's been toDay. Usually he makes such a fuss of suspecting submarines, and not wanting to focus too narrowly on any particular person, but that hasn't been the case toDay. He seems to have just kept hammering away at the same points.

Which brings me to:

I haven't gone through all the thread yet, but I do want to post my reasoning for the reason I voted BG yesterday since I've noticed a few concerns.

The reason I didn't vote for Mac yesterday is simply because I wanted to keep Eonwe around for a little bit longer. At the time Eonwe was also being looked at being lynched. At the time specualation was that he may be Dionysis, and I wasn't ready to lynch him yesterDay. I felt like we should keep him around and in order to do that I had to vote for BG. If I would've had enough people on my side I would've voted for Mac.

Your indications didn't seem to be that you were still ready to vote Mac. You pretty much just started agreeing with him, as if you hadn't said he was your top suspect shortly before. You even used his criticism of mine and Wilwa's votes for BG as reasons to suspect us.
Also, at the time you voted, BG had 5 votes, and Eönwë had 4. But you had to "save" him? :confused:

Looking at Boro's posting the only believable seer hint - let's say unambiguos - is the one concerning Eonwë being -4 damage to us innocents. THat's actually quite boldly said if the scale has been made with innocent dying being between +1-10.

That bothers me too. I don't understand why Boro said that, if he didn't know something. It's the most concrete thing I saw that could have pointed to one of his dreams. But why wasn't he more overt about suspecting Eönwë, if he was ready to give him a "Neg 4"?

Hmm. Nog, who I rather suspect through his own words and his possible link to my top suspect, tum, has voted Eönwë. Not really a big surprise, but it puts me in a bit of a bind.
I want to lynch tum. But she did say that she wanted to protect Eönwë yesterDay, so his lynch could tell me something about her. Then again, so could Nog's.

*sigh*

x/d with Mac and Wilwa

[Nogrod]

On my way to sleep...

I need to revisit Nerwen, just for a short while. Promise.

I admit I was suspecting her for partly wrong reasons (for picking exactly Hades from all the other possibilities and thus being too fitting). The fact that it was just a play with "What the he**!" curse took that point off. But actually, like I said before, if she was Hades, it would make even more sense to use that cursing as the suspicions could be answered just the way she did - and to which both Rikae and tp pointed. So other than be less believable it turns out to be more believable. Like if you thought it would have been too dangerous or too obvious to just rant like that, well no, it would be perfectly safe, or good enough to use a common curse as a hint - unless there were such one-track-minders like me who'd not give up.

Anyway. If I have made myself unclear about it before. That's more or less what I have against her thus far. I did perceive her defence a bit calculated and wolvish, but if fex. Mac turns out to be a wolf I think the situation is different. I do not "know" Nerwen is a wolf - or claim to know that.

There's quite a little we can make out of yesterDay's BG-train as no-one knew she was the lover, not even the wolves. Eonwë-train (or those who didn't join at certain phases and for which reasons) then again, if he turns out a wolf - or even the cursed - might really give some info.

Tum should start making more sense. And the likes of Foley, Nienna, Kath and also Lottie should start saying more.

Hey Lottie, it's not enough or substantial you say you "don't like someone". Tell us why and how that translates into possible wolvery or something... I mean someone you just dislike might be a goodie and someone you love might be a baddie. (coughWilwaSallycough)

Keeper of Mira I find really hard to read. I mean I kind of understand her bafflement about her needing to get a hint of protecting Boro, but that whole affair looks just so weird.

On many others I've had laughably too little time to concentrate - and I should have looked more closely to many. What makes this bad is that like I said in the admin thread - I was taken in to this game with a questionmark which was due to the fact that my participation will be small on the coming few Days - and I actually hadn't have time to specify my time-limits before I was in with a role. I do hope to get online, but I can't grant it before Wednesday (surely one or two Days but not everyDay). So bear with that or don't. I'll post something early next Day if alive and then, well at some point I hope. I'm aiming at not being modfired (two Days of not-voting in a row)... And from Wednesday on more steadily, if allowed. Just to let you know.

I did try to cause some discussion and hoped to do the best I could.

Heh, just saw this: We should force Nog to go to bed. (Yes, he just voted, but we all know that that doesn't mean anything.)You don't need to as I'm doing it myself - I need to be at the wheel once again in something like 30 hours so I'd wish to have two night's sleeps before that. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

All right, I'm back and will be off and on up until deadline.

The tally:

Greenie ==> Mac
Shasta ==> Nog
Kath ===> Nog (2)
Lalaith ==> Eonwe
Nog ====> Eonwe (2)
Wilwa ==> Eonwe (3)

[autume98]

And Nog? I don't remember innocent Nog being so single-minded as he's been toDay. Usually he makes such a fuss of suspecting submarines, and not wanting to focus too narrowly on any particular person, but that hasn't been the case toDay. He seems to have just kept hammering away at the same points.


First: What do you mean by suspecting submarines? I haven't heard this term before. :confused:


Your indications didn't seem to be that you were still ready to vote Mac. You pretty much just started agreeing with him, as if you hadn't said he was your top suspect shortly before. You even used his criticism of mine and Wilwa's votes for BG as reasons to suspect us.
Also, at the time you voted, BG had 5 votes, and Eönwë had 4. But you had to "save" him? :confused:


Well Mac wanted to actually go for a wolf. I was cool with that. We weren't getting anywhere by suspecting each other. So I left him alone. Besides I knew at this point there was no way I'd be able to lynch him.

Yes Eonwe only had 4 votes and BG had 5. And if I voted for Eonwe then they both would've had 5. So by voting for BG I was doing what I could to keep Eonwe yesterDay as I wanted BG gone more than I wanted Eonwe gone. Does that make sense?

[the phantom]

Phantom, I said I didn't see what was touchy about your posts.
Sorry about that. I must be reading too quickly.
The one solid(ish) thing that is sticking in my addled mind is that phantom is making a weird amount of sense. Usually he just confuses me and makes me want him dead.
Aw, thanks. (And has anyone decided on a nickname for you with this account? "Meeper" perhaps?)
Anyway, I think you're interpreting much more drama into it than there was. Phantom tested me a little, I joked about it, then a few people ran away with it, I clarified it (a little annoyed), phantom bought my explanation, peace, love, happiness.
Heh heh... but perhaps you shouldn't have said "love", as people may think you're trying to send me a lover hint. :p

My goodness- there are so many people who are completely slipping past me at this stage! This village is just too big right now, and some people are too quiet, and some arguments/discussions have occupied all my time. I have hardly any opinion on Nienna, Kath, Lottie, Shasta, and Sally. I really should give them a look.

[Inziladun]

First: What do you mean by suspecting submarines? I haven't heard this term before. :confused:

A submarine is one who doesn't post much, or when they do, it's nothing of consequence. Basically they aren't around enough for one to get any impression of them.

Well Mac wanted to actually go for a wolf. I was cool with that. We weren't getting anywhere by suspecting each other. So I left him alone. Besides I knew at this point there was no way I'd be able to lynch him.

But you didn't go after a wolf. You voted for someone you thought was innocent.

Yes Eonwe only had 4 votes and BG had 5. And if I voted for Eonwe then they both would've had 5. So by voting for BG I was doing what I could to keep Eonwe yesterDay as I wanted BG gone more than I wanted Eonwe gone. Does that make sense?

No, it really doesn't make sense. Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.

[Macalaure]

We have a game with three pairs of lovers, yet whenever I say the L--- word, I get somebody to shout "He's hinting!". That does not bother me at all. Nope. Not in the least. Totally cool with it. Perfectly fine. Love it. :p

[satansaloser2005]

We have a game with three pairs of lovers, yet whenever I say the L--- word, I get somebody to shout "He's hinting!". That does not bother me at all. Nope. Not in the least. Totally cool with it. Perfectly fine. Love it. :p

Mac, I love you. (Whoops, lookie what I did. :Merisu:)

Gah. I'm so bloody tired again; I keep falling asleep trying to look at Nog. Does that mean something? :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

I don't know where the argument started or why, but I can't pass up this statement, Inzil-
Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.
Um, are you kidding me? It was towards the end of voting and Steve was only behind by one single vote when Tum voted to increase the lead to two. How is that not a vote to save Steve?

[autume98]

A submarine is one who doesn't post much, or when they do, it's nothing of consequence. Basically they aren't around enough for one to get any impression of them.
Thanks for the explanation! :cool:

But you didn't go after a wolf. You voted for someone you thought was innocent.

No, it really doesn't make sense. Eönwë wasn't even tied for votes when you gave yours. I don't see how that makes your vote an effort to save him.

I wasn't just thinking about my vote. I was thinking about the way others were probably going to vote too. By the time I put my vote in it was down to BG and Eonwe. BG had 5 and Eonwe had 4. I think there were four votes left. Don't quote me on that though. ;) So I'm thinking that there are still some votes that are going to vote for BG and some for Eonwe. So my vote is now who do I want around more: BG or Eonwe. I decided that I wanted Eonwe to stick around for one more day instead of BG. I wasn't voting for 1 in 20. I was voting for one or the other.

As for voting for someone who was innocent, I thought both of them were innocent. Yet one of them was going to be lynched. There wasn't anything I could do to stop one of them from being lynched. So I chose between the one that I wanted to have stick around.

And I still didn't like people going after BG. I'll stand by that. However by the time I voted there was nothing I could do to stop it. Now if Eonwe turns out to be a wolf then I know that will look REALLY bad. So I'm really hoping that Eonwe is someone good. I can see why you think my vote looks bad. I'm not sure what else I can tell you since everything I've said is the truth. I'll do my best to try and clarify things, however sometimes it seems my logic doesn't match up with everyone else's logic. :p

Edit: x-ed with Mac, Sally, and tp

[Rikae]

Okay, I've been focused on the Nog/Mac/Phantom/Nerwen/Steve business, and this Inzil/Tum stuff is just beginning to make an impression. What is this? Tum voted for BeiGe after finding her innocent? I'll have to have a look at Tum's posts, especially considering that the above mentioned stuff isn't producing any leads, but just leading me more and more toward thinking all the big names are innocent or, at worst, lovers. Hmm. Back in a moment.

[Inziladun]

I don't know where the argument started or why, but I can't pass up this statement, Inzil-

Um, are you kidding me? It was towards the end of voting and Steve was only behind by one single vote when Tum voted to increase the lead to two. How is that not a vote to save Steve?

All right. Maybe I'm splitting hairs there. But it still doesnt seem all that imperative to cast a vote on someone she thought was innocent in order to save someone else who wasn't ahead in the vote count. And has she explained why she wanted to save him so badly?

x/d with tum and Rikae

[Nienna]

Hey all I'm sorry my participation has been slack today, I will have more time if I'm still alive toMorrow.

Thoughts: Someone (sorry I don't remember who) mentioned that my one earlier post didn't list everyone. I made that post as I was just going through the thread and it wasn't meant to be a list, just a collection of thoughts that popped up for me as I was reading.

Zil, I voted Steve even though he could be innocent because everyone could be innocent. He was just the person I thought would be best lynched. I think that again today though Nog's defending of his vote for Steve seemed a little like a wolf needing to defend his vote with lots of stuff.

Though Nog suddenly is seeming rather furry, I believe Steve's lynch will shed more light on the game.

++ Steve

And goodnight.

[autume98]

All right. Maybe I'm splitting hairs there. But it still doesnt seem all that imperative to cast a vote on someone she thought was innocent in order to save someone else who wasn't ahead in the vote count. And has she explained why she wanted to save him so badly?

It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to save him so badly. I never said I wanted to save him really bad. I just wanted him here toDay more than my other choice. :cool:

So now I have to ask...why did you vote for BG? What made you suspect her so early on?

[Inziladun]

It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to save him so badly. I never said I wanted to save him really bad. I just wanted him here toDay more than my other choice. :cool:

So now I have to ask...why did you vote for BG? What made you suspect her so early on?

I didn't like the way she kept dropping by and saying nothing. It looked to me as if she was just trying to seem as if she was participating without sticking her neck out. The only other one on my radar was Mac, and as I said yesterDay I didn't want to vote him on Day 1, since I couldn't tell if it was a real suspicion I had or just the general uneasy feeling he always seems to give me.

And it's not looking as though Eönwê's going to be here toMorrow.

[autume98]

I didn't like the way she kept dropping by and saying nothing. It looked to me as if she was just trying to seem as if she was participating without sticking her neck out. The only other one on my radar was Mac, and as I said yesterDay I didn't want to vote him on Day 1, since I couldn't tell if it was a real suspicion I had or just the general uneasy feeling he always seems to give me.

And it's not looking as though Eönwê's going to be here toMorrow.

I can see why you say that. The two I'd really like to hear about why they voted for BG are Wilwa and Mira. It doesn't look like I'll get an explanation from Wilwa tonight, and I'm not sure where Mira is.

No, it's not looking to good for Eonwe right now.

[Inziladun]

I should have been in bed long ago. I wouldn't mind seeing Eönwë lynched at this point, since my top suspect admittedly wanted to save him Day1. And I really don't know why Boro would have said that about him being a "Neg 4" for no reason.

I haven't changed my suspicion of tum, but this could shed some light on her, and maybe on Nog as well.

++Eönwë

[Rikae]

Nope, don't really buy the theory that Autume's a wolf.

Don't buy the theory that Mac's a wolf.

Definitely don't buy the theory that Steve is a wolf.

I, however, am the wolfiest wolf that ever howled at the moon, therefore:

++Rikae

Seriously, I really hope toMorrow we can focus a little attention into the dark corners of this village, instead of on the over-examined and probably innocent loudmouths - and I have a novel to finish, so tschüss.

[autume98]

Nope, don't really buy the theory that Autume's a wolf.

Don't buy the theory that Mac's a wolf.

Definitely don't buy the theory that Steve is a wolf.

I, however, am the wolfiest wolf that ever howled at the moon, therefore:

++Rikae

Seriously, I really hope toMorrow we can focus a little attention into the dark corners of this village, instead of on the over-examined and probably innocent loudmouths - and I have a novel to finish, so tschüss.

Classic! Can I just say I really like your vote. :D

I can totally see why you did it though. No one has jumped out at me as a wolf.

[Glirdan]

You all now have just under 2 hours to vote with about nine of you left to vote.

The voting tally is as follows:

Greenie ---> Mac
Shasta ---> Nog
Kath ---> Nog 2
Lalaith ---> Eonwe
Nog ---> Eonwe 2
Wilwa ---> Eonwe 3
Nienna ---> Eonwe 4
Zil ---> Eonwe 5
Rikae ---> Rikae (I really don't know what to say to this lol :rolleyes:)

[Macalaure]

Loslote

I suspected her, but without really knowing why, so here's the analysis. She also seems to have been forgotten by everyone, so I hope this might change it a little.

She's the first to make actual points, which one could interpret as a wolf trying to look helpful and not banter too much. However, her following posts are rather "light" in points. A lot about roles etc. and a lot about people's possible hints.

Her first actual suspicion is only on page 4 - erroneously thinking Nerwen's hint might point to her being Persephone. She believes the theory that Eonwe is the cursed, but doesn't want to lynch him (sensible opinion, I think).

Makes a list which has everybody innocent except for slight suspicions towards me and Autume. (Not stepping on too many people's toes. However, it's just a mid-Day1 list.) Disagrees with me about Zeus's almightiness. (Being the most mighty and being almighty is not the same.) She agrees with me that we shouldn't lynch BG, and suggests me instead (and Autume). She keeps on stating to want to lynch me and her multiple times, and that I find very suspicious. In her list, Tum and me stood out as most suspicious, but it looked more like we were 2/10 in a sea of 1/10. Looking at #231, #234, #260, it really seems to me like she used the list to be able to justify singling out two and then being able to keep those around as prime suspects without having to answer any more questions about it.

She votes Eonwe since Tum and I are not going to be lynched, Eonwe is probably the cursed, and everybody else is still innocent. She notes that BG-voters need to be looked at. Sensible, but also convenient for a wolf who voted someone else. She covers the case of Eonwe being lynched by saying if he's innocent, we need to look at Nogrod (the unpicked cursed villager is an ordo in the tally. If the theory is right, we definitely would have lynched an innocent).

ToDay she starts with suppressed anger and a new list, which looks suspiciously like the old one, except that Nogrod is suspicious now, too. She backs off me a little bit. She suspects Nogrod because he didn't vote for Eonwe. Not exactly a great argument, but alright, except that she could have made the same point yesterDay, after his vote, already. But yesterDay she was content to carry only Tum and me around.


There are several things that could be both evil or good, but the way she handled her suspicions of Autume and me, talks about the BG-waggon and Eonwe's possible innocence (each on its own fine, but in combination it looks bad), and the reason for suspecting Nogrod look rather bad. Prime suspect now, since I lack other strong suspects at the moment.

[Macalaure]

*tries to think of a polite word to describe the Eonwe-bandwaggon* :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Okay, so I'm just thinking out loud here- I realize that from a cut and dry view Eonwe is the logical choice given the Seer death as well as the voting yesterday, but I also think that he should not win in a landslide. If he is in fact a WW, shouldn't we at least offer his mates a chance to save him (put at least one other person in position to be lynched)?

But I'm thinking that might not work, as given the strong wind that is blowing combined with the possible Boro dream, his mates are probably more than willing to throw him under the bus and simply hop on board, and thus if we lynch those who try to save him we'd just lynch innocents.

But of course I don't firmly believe he's even a WW anyway. I think Boro was probably the false Seer. Bleh. If Eonwe gets lynched and I've been wrong all along and Nog is proven correct, I'll be high on the lists tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Anyway, earlier I was considering a campaign against a submarine (to try and bully them into talking more), but I found that I could not decide between our low posters as none of them particularly stood out as bad. But then that's the point of the submarines, isn't it? Please, I'd like to see more tomorrow from some of you!

All in all I feel that I haven't completely found my footing yet, however, I think I'm getting there slowly. At the least there are a few people that I'm beginning to move rather firmly into the innocent column, and that's a place to start. Mac seems rather good at this point. I like Nerwen. For how quiet she's been Folwren feels rather good to me. Meeper as well.

And Rikae votes for herself? Didn't like the idea of there being no Cobbler, eh? I'm not going to hold this against you at all, but be careful dearie- I can bet you a few people are going to use this against you tomorrow. You'd better be ready to fight off the lynch mob.

[Nerwen]

On my way to sleep...

I need to revisit Nerwen, just for a short while. Promise.

I admit I was suspecting her for partly wrong reasons (for picking exactly Hades from all the other possibilities and thus being too fitting). The fact that it was just a play with "What the he**!" curse took that point off. But actually, like I said before, if she was Hades, it would make even more sense to use that cursing as the suspicions could be answered just the way she did - and to which both Rikae and tp pointed. So other than be less believable it turns out to be more believable.
Oh, well, I need to revisit Nogrod, just for a short while. Here we have another fine example of the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" reasoning to which I alluded yesterDay.

Thing is, Nog, I've been trying to think back to past games, and as far as I can remember, when you've played like this before, you've generally been a wolf. I well remember what I dubbed your "heads he's furry, tails he's a wolf" case on skip spence.

Or are you indeed just jet-lagged?

I agree, though, that it might be worth lynching Steve to see what he is. But then tum is looking increasingly wicked...

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Macalaure]

Well, if Eonwe is neither wolf nor cursed, as I suspect, at least I will have plenty of good suspects toMorrow.

[Rikae]

Makkie, you forget that I'm supposed to fight off a lynch mob tomorrow.
:p

[Rikae]

Now, really, the stupid novel. Where was I...

[Macalaure]

After those two votes, you probably deserve that, love. ;)

[Rikae]

I could use the exercise. They'd better bring handcuffs. :cool:

[autume98]

After those two votes, you probably deserve that, love. ;)

Now that just cracked me up! :D

[Macalaure]

8 people and me left to vote. Anybody have preferences other than Eonwe?

[the phantom]

Well, if Eonwe is neither wolf nor cursed, as I suspect, at least I will have plenty of good suspects toMorrow.
Which is reason 1A why I have defended him while not outright campaigning for him. Reason 1B is that I have little better to offer. I mean- Nog in my opinion has been really odd with his logic and arguments this game, but being wrong doesn't make him evil. Your target, Lottie- I'll admit that I have no feelings whatsoever. She's one of the ones that has fallen through the cracks of my mind thus far.

And would you stop using that L-word! Haven't we had enough fun with hints today? :p

(x-posted with a few)

[Macalaure]

I'd love to, but I just can't help it. :(

[the phantom]

Anybody have preferences other than Eonwe?
Not anything strong. But there might be a couple I'd roll the dice on if you wanted to give them a try. One of the low-posters? Nienna maybe? I dunno. You said Lottie earlier- heck why not? And what do you think of Nog? Wait and see if he's right first, or push him to the brink?

(x-post Mac, who posted ANOTHER hint *makes note to guess Mac as Hades tonight*)

[the phantom]

The Tally:

Greenie ==> Mac
Shasta ==> Nog
Kath ===> Nog (2)
Lalaith ==> Eonwe
Nog ====> Eonwe (2)
Wilwa ==> Eonwe (3)
Nienna ==> Eonwe (4)
Inzil ====> Eonwe (5)
Rikae ===> Rikae

[autume98]

Which is reason 1A why I have defended him while not outright campaigning for him. Reason 1B is that I have little better to offer. I mean- Nog in my opinion has been really odd with his logic and arguments this game, but being wrong doesn't make him evil. Your target, Lottie- I'll admit that I have no feelings whatsoever. She's one of the ones that has fallen through the cracks of my mind thus far.

And would you stop using that L-word! Haven't we had enough fun with hints today? :p



Maybe I haven't played with Nog enough yet. It seems as thought a few people have made comments about him acting strange. So I could be wrong about him.

As for Lottie, I haven't heard enough from her outside of her gunning for Mac and me. I think I'd like to know more about her reasoning and let her explain herself before I go after her.

Anyone else is pretty much fair game. I don't feel strongly about anyone at this point.

Edit: x-ed with both of tp's posts

[Nerwen]

*tries to think of a polite word to describe the Eonwe-bandwaggon* :rolleyes:

Don't bother, Mac, they'll just think you're dropping Lover-hints.

About Eönwë: what I'm not keen on is that everyone who votes him seems to be doing it for a completely different reason.

(Not to mention that certain parties *cough* Nogrod *cough* have seemingly ignored the points other people have already made against their arguments.)

For my own part, I do think the fact that the Seer voted Steve while making the cryptic "neg 4" remark– and got killed in the Night may be significant. I've said why I don't think Boro actually dreamed an Eonwolf, but if such he is, it might be enough if the pack thought he had.

Not that I've decided to vote him yet, at all.

EDIT:X'd with everyone again.

[autume98]

Not anything strong. But there might be a couple I'd roll the dice on if you wanted to give them a try. One of the low-posters? Nienna maybe? I dunno. You said Lottie earlier- heck why not? And what do you think of Nog? Wait and see if he's right first, or push him to the brink?


Funny that you should mention Nienna. I had gone back through her posts earlier today and there wasn't much there. However that can be said of a few people at this time.

And I already covered thoughts about Lottie and Nog.

Edit: x-ed with Nerwen

[Macalaure]

I'd rather give Nogrod the benefit of a good night's sleep. Nienna I'd be willing to try.

Nerwen mentioned Autume. I'm not so keen on that.

[Loslote]

There's the enigmatic number -4. Was Boro trying to hint he was not that big a baddie or just trying to protect himself not going outright naming him -10 or somethig? I don't know.

Really, I think that was more of a continuation of an elegant but efficiant way of describing role value. I don't think it was a Seer hint.

I mean someone you just dislike might be a goodie and someone you love might be a baddie. (coughWilwaSallycough)

I do NOT play favorites. You can say that I become obsessive in my suspicions. This is true. You can say that I can easily be wrong in these obsessive suspicions. This is true. You can say that I have a tendancy to be silly. This is true. But you CAN NOT say that I play favorites. I do not pass someone I "love" (there's that word again - are you hinting, Nog?) as innocent without a second glance. I do not automatically call for those I "dislike" to die. As a matter of fact, I do not "dislike" anyone playing in this game.

Well Mac wanted to actually go for a wolf. I was cool with that. We weren't getting anywhere by suspecting each other. So I left him alone. Besides I knew at this point there was no way I'd be able to lynch him.

Yes Eonwe only had 4 votes and BG had 5. And if I voted for Eonwe then they both would've had 5. So by voting for BG I was doing what I could to keep Eonwe yesterDay as I wanted BG gone more than I wanted Eonwe gone. Does that make sense?

Wait, wait. So you were fine with Mac because he wanted to go hunt for wolves, and you instantly give up on wolf-hunting to pick between innocents?

ToDay she starts with suppressed anger and a new list, which looks suspiciously like the old one, except that Nogrod is suspicious now, too. She backs off me a little bit. She suspects Nogrod because he didn't vote for Eonwe. Not exactly a great argument, but alright, except that she could have made the same point yesterDay, after his vote, already. But yesterDay she was content to carry only Tum and me around.

In case you didn't notice, that post where I said to look at Nog if Steve were lynched did make that point yesterDay. I would have posted more, but you see, I really didn't have time. I mentioned that I wouldn't really be around. Don't you read what others post? :p

Anyways, I'm sure I've xed with tons of people. The last bit I saw was people thinking about lynching me. All I can say is:

Do it. Really, go ahead. I'm not upset, I'm not tired of the game in any way, and this is not said in anger. I wouldn't mind being lynched.

[autume98]

I'd rather give Nogrod the benefit of a good night's sleep. Nienna I'd be willing to try.

Nerwen mentioned Autume. I'm not so keen on that.

I'd be willing to give Nienna a try too, and for some reason I'm not too keen on going after me either. :p

Edit: x-ed with Lottie

[Eönwë]

Okay, I've been focused on the Nog/Mac/Phantom/Nerwen/Steve business, and this Inzil/Tum stuff is just beginning to make an impression. What is this? Tum voted for BeiGe after finding her innocent?

What about Phantom?

Okay, so I read Steve's posts, and I think he's innocent. His wine comment is the only thing that I could see that would make him look bad to anyone. Some of the other things he said were quite good. He was the one who floated the idea of the two Rangers working together to protect the Seer in fact. I see no reason for him to have suggested that as a baddie. Anyway, yeah, I can't see supporting his lynch.

But then he votes for me anyway.

[the phantom]

Yeah, whatever, I'll try Nienna if you want, Mac, just so long as you understand that, should Eonwe end up being saved today, we're going to go through all of this again tomorrow.

And yes, Steve, I voted for you despite defending you (I even defended you to Nog after voting you). I explained that yesterday at the time that I did it.

[Eönwë]

Eonwe, may I paraphrase your case against me as "Mac looks really, really good actually but there are a few far-fetched things that might mean he could be a wolf"? Also, you end your case against me with "He needs to be watched" and then put me in the highest "Evil" category. Consistency that is not.

That's what posting at night will do to you... yeah, you should've been put higher up one or two places according to my post. I just changed my mind about you once I'd finished writing about everyone and forgot to change that part accordingly.