WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Glirdan]

The sun never rose on the mountain that fateful day. The skies were a deep purple, with thunder rolling through it and reverberating through the halls of Mount Olympus. Rain spattered the the side of the mountain. Below, the mortals stayed indoors, sheltering from the coming onslaught. All able bodied man were put too work, sandbagging the rivers so they wouldn’t over flow into their crops and drown their livestock. Women and children were bustling inside, making sure everything was secure, readying food and making sure their was a plate ready for when the men came home. Greece had never looked so desolate...

Yet the weather paled in comparison to the storm that was raging inside of Mount Olympus. The Gods were in an uproar, for Hermes had just delievered a message to them from the Fates, one that would affect their lives from this day forth: the Twilight was upon them. The ever powerful reign of the Olympian Gods was supposedly coming to an end. They had all gathered in the Halls to conviene, including Hades and his wife Persephone, as well as Poseidon, all of whom usually kept to their domains. Yet this was no ordinary day, not when their lives were hanging in the balance.

It was foretold, long ago, that one day, the Twilight would come and the Gods reign would cease. Yet nothing was said as to how it would happen. And the message that Hermes had brought with him from the Fates was also very vague. It also did not help that Apollo, being the God of Prophecy had seen the death or disappearance of his entire family. For the first time since the Titans, Mount Olympus was surrounded in a shroud of fear.......

The clammering in Olympus went on all day, everyone at each other’s throats...almost literally in some cases. Some of the Gods seemed to be acting a little more agressively than the others...Yet no one would do a thing about it. Zeus finally called them all to attention. “Attention....ATTENTION!!” His voice rumbled through the hall and everyone fell silent. “The Fates have said our Fates are sealed. Yet as my son Hercules has always said, we make our own destiny. Let’s put this squabbling aside and come together as a family and beat it. The Twilight shall not descend upon us yet!” There was a chorus of agreement from the other Gods. And as the purple in the sky slowly faded to black, the Gods dispersed one by one, heading to their rooms for the Night........


It is now Night 1.

Wolves start PMing.
Hera and Zeus start PMing.
Eros and Artemis may start PMing.
Shirrifs may start PMing.
Seers send me a dream.

[Glirdan]

Yet Zeus's words had fallen upon deaf ears. Even in the still of the Night, there were secret meetings amongst four individuals, plotting a most terrible plan. Apollo was in a trance, seeing the future to come. Hermes was flying around, gathering word for his Masters. Even the King of the Gods himself was plotting a secret getaway with his wife Hera.

None were prepared to trust one another. After all, the Gods were selfish and only cared about themselves. None, not even Apollo, could foresee the trouble that was to come with the waking of the sun.



It is still Night 1
Still waiting on a dream from the Seers.

[Glirdan]

Once again, the sun never rose with the coming of the dawn. Rain continued to plaster the sides of Mount Olympus. The constant thudding of the rain was reverberating through the home of the Gods. Yet the coming of the day bore no good will for the Gods, for something was terribly amiss. Some mysterious forces were at work in Mount Olympus.

Persephone had lost all knowledge of who Hades was. Demeter was in frenzy, trying to calm her woe begotten daughter as Hades stormed about the room. Aphrodite and Hephaestus were both completely unaware of whom the other was and had no idea that they were in fact married and for some unknown reason; Hercules and another mortal were seen sprawled on the floor unconscious, apparently dragged from the mortal realm to Mount Olympus. The Gods were in a state of panic, yet nothing prepared them for what was about to happen next.

As everyone gathered around Hercules (with the exception of a few of his more vengeful siblings) and the unknown mortal, a tiny ray of sun managed to poke its way through the clouds to illuminate the room briefly…but that’s all it took.

Hanging from his scythe, above Zeus’s throne, was Thanatos, the God of Death. As the ray of light disappeared, a tiny glint could be seen, sticking out of his stomach. He had been pierced right through. Everyone started panicking and cursing. Hercules and the mortal finally came around in a state of total shock. Mount Olympus had turned into a zoo in the matter of seconds.

“QUIET!!” Zeus’s thunderous voice echoed loudly through the hall as everyone ceased everything. There was a moment’s pause before Zeus spoke again. “Only a God can kill another God…So it is clear that someone here is the scum that killed Thanatos. It seems someone wishes to bring the Twilight upon us. But I will not let that happen! I will not let fate take control!”

With that, everyone started to disperse throughout Olympus, discussing and conversing on who they thought the culprits were. Day 1 of the Twilight, was upon them…

Dead
Glirdan - Thanatos (Mod)

Alive
Wilwa
Kath
Boro
Mira
Zil
BeiGei
Lottie
Eonwe
Nienna
Nerwen
Folwren
Tum
Lalaith
Greenie
Rikae
Shasta
Mac
Nog
Phantom
Sally


It is now Day 1
Wolves stop PMing.
Zeus and Hera stop PMing
Eros and Artemis stop PMing

Shirrifs may continue to PM

Everyone start posting!

[Loslote]

My dear fellow gods, goddesses, and - er - mortals, may I be the first to say - bugger.

Now, to get it out of the way:

"I'm an ordo! So don't lynch me! And don't Night-kill me! I'm an ordo! Really! Nothing special here! Or evil!" *nervous giggle*

[Blind Guardian]

That screams wolf! Who's (what role) is the mortal? I'm confused.

So I'm not breaking any roles I'm gonna check the admin thread.

Edit2: Theres an ordo! Ha!

[the phantom]

Want to know how tired I am? I was within an inch of posting a first post that was IN CHARACTER!! Thankfully I remembered just in time that characters were tied to roles, and that posting in character would be stupid for most and downright illegal for some.

So yeah- Phantom's greatly anticipated return to Werewolf (oh hush) was nearly an epic fail.

Anyway, my initial thought- there are a lot of roles! The number of moving parts that are present here, and the chain reaction that could occur as the result of anything one does..... It makes it rather difficult to formulate plans that don't have the possibility of backfiring in a spectacular fashion. Bleh.

But I am quite certain of one thing- The Saucepan Man bears watching!

[Loslote]

Want to know how tired I am? I was within an inch of posting a first post that was IN CHARACTER!! Thankfully I remembered just in time that characters were tied to roles, and that posting in character would be stupid for most and downright illegal for some.

I almost did that too...but I didn't, and that's gotta count for something, right? :p

As it happens, I've not played with most of you. Therefore, I expect to be lynched Day 1 already - BeiGe, thanks for getting that ball rolling. ;):p

[the phantom]

As it happens, I've not played with most of you. Therefore, I expect to be lynched Day 1 already
I had no plans for lynching you, but seeing as you are expecting it- well, I would hate to let you down. :p

[Loslote]

I had no plans for lynching you, but seeing as you are expecting it- well, I would hate to let you down. :p

Well, I would hate to break my outstanding track record. :Merisu:

NOTE: I joked about the Ordo role because I thought there were no Ordo roles, and that we were all going to be pretending to be the one role that didn't exist. Erm. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

*gasp*

Did you just admit to having a role, Lottie?! :eek:

My goodness, that was foolish. That means I can now narrow your identity down to nineteen possibilities! I'll have you pegged in no time!

[Loslote]

*gasp*

Did you just admit to having a role, Lottie?! :eek:

My goodness, that was foolish. That means I can now narrow your identity down to nineteen possibilities! I'll have you pegged in no time!

Oopsie! :eek: *is a silly little Lottie*

[the phantom]

Well, I was hoping more folks would be around, but I guess not.

Can't keep my head off the pillow any longer. Be back upon waking.

(Be sure and entertain our ModGod while I'm gone, as that's the whole point of this, and I can't do it all alone. Well okay, actually I can, but I'm sure he'll appreciate your attempts.)

[Nerwen]

Well, things have come to a pretty pass! I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

[Loslote]

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

Two mortals, I think. Is this your way of diverting attention away from the real culprits? We know perfectly well that no mere mortal could have killed Thanatos. They're innocent. We need to find which of us have turned to serve Cronus, not have fun mortal-mushing.

[Nerwen]

We need to find which of us have turned to serve Cronus, not have fun mortal-mushing.
*sighs* Aww, if you say so...

[Loslote]

*sighs* Aww, if you say so...

*grumbles* It's probably best. :(

Now. Nerwen. You've been bantering in that "oh I'm acting evil I must be joking and therefore innocent" type banter...but you don't seem evil to me. Of course, it is insanely early (or late, depending on how you're viewing time) to make statements like that, but so far, you seem somewhat innocent to me. I shan't say anything about BeiGe or The Phantom - I have a history of wrongly suspecting the former, and have never played with the later.

Ha! First serious post. :p

[Nerwen]

Now. Nerwen. You've been bantering in that "oh I'm acting evil I must be joking and therefore innocent" type banter...but you don't seem evil to me.

You're no fun any more. *pouts*

[Loslote]

You're no fun any more. *pouts*

Strange...usually I'm more fun at one in the morning, not less. Evidently I'm not sleep-deprived enough to be hyper yet. :p

Actually, though, you do not sound like Evil!Nerwen. I have a theory, but I shan't share it - too many complicating factors, and it's not like you're allowed to confirm it. :p

[Boromir88]

Quite the fab party Thanatos has put on for us, wouldn't you say? Hey! Hey! I know you're all antsy to see me, but watch the glasses!


But I am quite certain of one thing- The Saucepan Man bears watching!

Do you know the type? Like are we talking black, grizzly, or were, here? *badabing*

One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.

Best just go with what he counsels unless it's, "lynch the seer."

[Loslote]

Best just go with what he counsels unless it's, "lynch the seer."

No, no, I'm pretty sure we should still go with what he counsels. If he does counsel that, you can be sure he himself *is* the Seer, and is trying to double-bluff - and thus, his "seer" is not a "seer" at all, but rather a wolf in seer's toga.

[Nerwen]

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.


You do realise that all three conditions are one and the same, Boro?

[wilwarin538]

Not much happening. This saddens me.

So I'll make some random comments then. These quotes made me giggle:

Want to know how tired I am? I was within an inch of posting a first post that was IN CHARACTER!!

I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*


Quite the fab party Thanatos has put on for us, wouldn't you say? Hey! Hey! I know you're all antsy to see me, but watch the glasses!

Do you know the type? Like are we talking black, grizzly, or were, here? *badabing*

*stops giggling*

And this deserves a legitimate response:


One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.

Best just go with what he counsels unless it's, "lynch the seer."

First, I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Second, Nerwen is right. They are actually all the same. The Lovers and Wolves are essentially on the same team right now. Zeus is really like a 5th wolf at the moment, except he doesn't know who 3 of them are, and has no real say in the Night kill, and counts in the innocent numbers (so maybe more like a cobblerish thing, as long as Hera is still kicking). The other 2 Lovers are potential allies for the wolves if they are united with their wolfy loves.

Hopefully one of each of those seperated Lovers dies before they've found each other. To avoid all the revenge kill business, and to keep the two non wolves from allying with the wolves. Even though wolves are the goal for lynching, it wouldn't be a total waste to kill a Lover.

[Eönwë]

Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

[Folwren]

Alright, I'm announcing my presence. I'm glad to see I've not fallen too far behind already, though I dare say I will be very far behind before too much time has passed.

Having not been around these goings on for the past couple years, I really have no idea of anyone's habits while playing, but I'll go ahead and jot down my first impressions...

Loslote talks a lot. Whether it is nonsensicle or serious, it's still a lot. Good? Bad? I don't know. I'm having a feeling it's more bad than good, but since few others have posted, I have little to compare it to.

Nerwen seems sensible. Has said nothing alarming yet.

I agree with what Boromir said about Phantom helping whichever side he chooses, but I don't know if my reasoning is quite as his was. But I'm slightly confused about what exactly his reasoning was... Anyway...

Wilwa seems alright, too.

Just my two cents. Only, this is so worthless (being the first day and all) that it's practically only worth .5 cents.

[Eönwë]

First, I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

edit: x-ed with Foley. And I like that spelling mistake, so I'm not going to change it.

[wilwarin538]

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

edit: x-ed with Foley. And I like that spelling mistake, so I'm not going to change it.

Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Anyway. I want more action. I have to go to work later, and I don't want all the good stuff to happen without me.

[Blind Guardian]

Hello people I am here. But I have to leave. So...MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!

[the phantom]

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be? :D I realize this is a rather free and open game and you are free to place your loyalties anywhere you please, but really...

[Rikae]

Best just go with what he counsels...

Frankly, I'd rather just lynch the seer.

Going along with what Phantom counsels is no fun at all. If there's any danger that we're going to feel obligated to do so, I recommend lynching him now... or at least chaining him to a rock for the remainder of the game. *gets chains*

To others: I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something. :p

Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.

[Folwren]

Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.

I am under the distinct impression that everyone in this game has some sort of 'special role'.

I suggest that we NOT lynch Phantom, as he has not said anything remarkably ridiculous this game. There are much better candidates for killing so far.

And once more, I am uncertain of people's playing styles, but I don't understand why one would let the first thing out of their mouth be, "Frankly, I'd rather just lynch the seer." It might just be your style, Rikae, but it sounds rather dangerous to me.

[Inziladun]

One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

Why single out the storied phantom? Wouldn't anyone do the same?

Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

Thanks for the admission! Now who are your mates? :rolleyes:

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be? :D I realize this is a rather free and open game and you are free to place your loyalties anywhere you please, but really...

At least someone understands.

Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.

Singling out possible gifteds? You're clearly a wolf. :p

x/d with Folwren

[Rikae]

I am under the distinct impression that everyone in this game has some sort of 'special role'.
Really? I had no idea. :eek:

I suggest that we NOT lynch Phantom, as he has not said anything remarkably ridiculous this game. There are much better candidates for killing so far.
Aw, come on. Do you really want to spend the game being dictated to by that eg--- that cuddly little guy?

And once more, I am uncertain of people's playing styles, but I don't understand why one would let the first thing out of their mouth be, "Frankly, I'd rather just lynch the seer." It might just be your style, Rikae, but it sounds rather dangerous to me.

Oh no! I seem to have made a blatant wolvish slip! It's all over now! Packmates, save yourselves!!!!!11111oneeleventy

:D

EDIT: X'd with Inzil

[the phantom]

I suggest that we NOT lynch Phantom, as he has not said anything remarkably ridiculous this game.
Just great. What you're basically saying is that if I start acting silly you'll lynch me. Way to take my fun away! :(
Frankly, I'd rather just lynch the seer.
Quite right, it will keep him from leading us astray with his false dreams later on. Good idea!

[the phantom]

Why single out the storied phantom? Wouldn't anyone do the same?
Because it's fun to talk about me.

Plus he wanted my attention perhaps?

[wilwarin538]

Aw, come on. Do you really want to spend the game being dictated to by that eg--- that cuddly little guy?


Why does everyone assume that just because he comes up with a crazy plan, we have to follow it? We could always just ignore him.

And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

[Inziladun]

Why does everyone assume that just because he comes up with a crazy plan, we have to follow it? We could always just ignore him.


I don't say ignore him, but he shouldn't be blindly followed either. No one should, at this point.

[Folwren]

Aw, come on. Do you really want to spend the game being dictated to by that eg--- that cuddly little guy?

Lynching someone and being dictated to by someone are two options at far ends from each other. I'm saying p'raps we don't want to do either.

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

[wilwarin538]

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

I guess not. :rolleyes:

I'm going to go check out the roles. Then I'm going to get something exciting happening.

[Nerwen]

Lynching someone and being dictated to by someone are two options at far ends from each other. I'm saying p'raps we don't want to do either.

No, no, it definitely has to be one or the other, Fowlren. Slavery or bloody revolution– there is simply no middle ground!:p

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

Sure there is– lynching people!:cool:

Edit: X'd with Wilwa.

[Nerwen]

Seriously, Fowlren, Day Ones are generally useful for analysis later on, if nothing else.

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

[Folwren]

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

I definitely concur. As Wilwa said she was going to do, I just looked over all the roles. Craziness!

[Lalaith]

Why single out the storied phantom
Of course, making a high-profile player like Phantom the centre of chat and attention is an excellent tactic for others to divert attention away from themselves.
Well, of the Great Ones that have so far spoken, many seem to have taken too freely of Ganymede's cups - but still, these are times of confusion and chaos not seen for many an age, so perhaps we can excuse ourselves. And to add to the chaos, no-one, save one, is 'innocent' in the sense of being exactly what they seem. Some are already grouped and paired and so know more than others, others are searching for mates.
I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.
Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

[autume98]

Good glory, is there any purpose to this first day at all, besides bantering, teasing, and otherwise killing time?

If you find a purpose for day one other than what you mentioned you will have to share.

So far I got a whole lot of nothing.

[satansaloser2005]

Well, things have come to a pretty pass! I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

She's invoking the name of Hades! Lynch her! Lynch her! :p

Grar, I wish I had more time. I'll be back in six hours or so and shall putz around and catch up then.


And there are (essentially) ordo roles in the game. They're just not mortal. (How do I know this, you ask? Well wouldn't you like to know?)

[autume98]

Seriously, Fowlren, Day Ones are generally useful for analysis later on, if nothing else.

Also, with so many weird roles, things could get interesting even this early on.

That's true. Didn't think about that. At the time though it is quite confusing. :p

Edit: x-ed with Sally

[wilwarin538]

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

Well, I think in reference to the narrations, how Zeus is supposed to be on the 'good' side, so 'allied to Zeus' would be 'allied to the good side'.

The roles.

4 Wolves, 3 of which have Lovers (2 of which need to be located, and there is some potential for revenge kills or role knowledge, if one of them dies)

1 Unicorn

1 Mytho

2 Shirrifs (some protecting powers for Hercules if Hebe dies)

2 Seers (1 of which is False)

1 Ranger

1 Cursed (who knows they are cursed)

1 Hunter

1 Hunting Guardian (can communicate with the Hunter)

2 'Protectors' (Demeter knows the identity of Persephone (a lover), and can protect her once. Athena will know the identity of one of the Hunting Guardian, the Ranger, the Hunter, or the Seer, and she can get an extra vote twice)

1 Ordo

So. Possibilty for 2 more wolves, and the two lost lovers are potential allies for the wolves as well. At least there's no Cobbler. But then there are lots of gifteds, and the potential for another (Mytho) and for one to come back (Unicorn). Lots of oppurtunities for extra death, but also lots of oppurtunities for extra protecting. So I suppose it actually is pretty balanced.

*brain explodes*

x'ed with a Tum and Cupcake sandwich

[the phantom]

Oh, come now, this day isn't useless at all! I've already seen three players for certain (possibly more but I haven't had enough time to read carefully) who have done something to point towards a particular sort of role, and the only thing that remains to be seen is if they are serious in doing so or if they are merely hoping to cause the opposition to make an incorrect choice. The mind games have already started! :cool:

[Lalaith]

Well, Wilwa's post was at least an attempt at clarification so thanks for that. I have no idea what Sally's on about though - what's this plethora of ordness of which you speak?

[Nerwen]

Of course, making a high-profile player like Phantom the centre of chat and attention is an excellent tactic for others to divert attention away from themselves.
Well, of the Great Ones that have so far spoken, many seem to have taken too freely of Ganymede's cups - but still, these are times of confusion and chaos not seen for many an age, so perhaps we can excuse ourselves. And to add to the chaos, no-one, save one, is 'innocent' in the sense of being exactly what they seem. Some are already grouped and paired and so know more than others, others are searching for mates.

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

If you find a purpose for day one other than what you mentioned you will have to share.

What I said. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=634817&postcount=40)

EDIT:X'd since tum at #43.

[wilwarin538]

Well, Wilwa's post was at least an attempt at clarification so thanks for that. I have no idea what Sally's on about though - what's this plethora of ordness of which you speak?

Unicorn is like an Ord, something only happens with their death. Persephone and Aphrodite are like Ordos until they've been found (and will remain so if their matches die before finding them). Mytho could become an Ordo if they choose certain people. The Cursed is like an Ordo until (if) they get chosen by the Wolves.

I can only assume she's referring to one of those. Unless she knows something the rest of us don't.

x'ed with Nerwen

[the phantom]

Is he (Zeus) allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?
If Hera dies, then isn't he at that point on the side of the village, as he is a non-WW who can only live if the village triumphs? And that goes for the other non-WW lovers too, yes?

[Kath]

... I'm almost too impressed with myself to post ... I made it to Day 1! :D

So hello all. Think there are quite a few people here I've never played with before so this should be interesting. I've just got home so will read through what admittedly looks like not very much and get back to you.

[Nerwen]

If Hera dies, then isn't he at that point on the side of the village, as he is a non-WW who can only live if the village triumphs? And that goes for the other non-WW lovers too, yes?

Well, I'd hope so, but some people will have it that a surviving Lover has automatically lost anyway. In this game, it makes a whopping big difference to the dynamics whether that's so or not.

(Maybe we need to clarify that point in the General Rules thread?)

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

[the phantom]

Well, I'd hope so, but some people will have it that a surviving Lover has automatically lost anyway. In this game, it makes a whopping big difference to the dynamics whether that's so or not.
Well, if their lover dies they can no longer win as a "lover", so sure, I guess technically they could do whatever they pleased after that (use their revenge kill on themself even). But really, I don't think that's proper.

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

Agreed.

Wait. I just agreed with phantom. There is clearly something topsy turvy about the world today.

I need to go ponder that fact (aka go to work).

[Folwren]

Think of it this way- Romeo and Juliet... Juliet dies, so now where are Romeo's loyalties supposing he doesn't kill himself? Does the fact that he used to be with a Capulet make him side with them forever against the family he came from? I think not. First loyalty is to Juliet, second is to his family, thus with her gone...

Agreed?

No, because Romeo died first, for real.

[the phantom]

I only used the names Romeo and Juliet due to the family ties and lover status, Folwren- the scenario wasn't meant to be strictly accurate to the original tale, particularly since I had the Zeus-Hera pairing in mind (that's what spurred the discussion) and as the male in that pairing is the "innocent" one the scenario I drew up made more sense with the female Juliet dying first.

[Folwren]

That's okay, Phantom, I was only teasing.

[A Little Green]

Hello folks! I think I'll start with my usual grumble about a difficult deadline - 9 AM my time, meaning that I'll have to either vote seven or eight hours early or wake up around six or seven in the morning to have time to read and vote.
Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.
I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Eonwe, you just made my day.
Just my two cents. Only, this is so worthless (being the first day and all) that it's practically only worth .5 cents.It's never worthless if you're saying something on topic or voicing your opinions on others!
Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be?My brain hurts. :(

So, just in general, then. I'm definitely not going to vote for Wilwa or Foley toDay, they both seem to speak sense and make an effort to make others do so as well. (I know making sense doesn't mean you're innocent, but at this stage it just might.) Nerwen seems innocentish too at the moment. Of the others I'm either too confused or have too little material to formulate even a vague early Day 1 opinion.

[Kath]

On the subject of what and who is innocent, from the Admin thread:

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.
Looks like this means that anyone who isn't a Wolf or False Seer, so that means non-wolf Lovers etc, count as innocent. So technically right now we actually do have a plethora of innocents. As Wolves and Lovers find each other those numbers diminish because they have loyalty to each other over the village while both halves of the pairing are alive. So while lynching the Lovers is sort of positive, it is still more positive for us to kill the Wolves over the Lovers, especially early while they haven't had a chance to find each other.

[Nogrod]

I'll start by following Greenie with her grumble on the deadline. So I'll be voting earlyish everyDay - unless the gods of game force me to steal from my sleep - which would not be unheard of...

Okay, the way the phantom tries to convince Zeus to stick his loyalties to the good side in the event of Hera's possible death speaks good of him. The problem is of course he could bluff that (I've done that kind of bluffing myself so I should know). But I'm in no hurry seeing him at the gallows. Let's hear him first.

Wilwa makes sense and effort and should live, whatever her loyalties are. People who talk lot are easier to read in the long run than those who don't.

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again. :D

*Goes back to read*

[A Little Green]

So lets lynch... no, I'm actually not suggesting that same thing once again.A disappointment! I was expecting that! :(

[wilwarin538]

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

I also agree about the Lover thing. Once the wolf lover is dead, the other is allied to the village. Their original goal can't be accomplished, and they can't win with the wolves, so their only option for any sort of victory is with the village. Same the other way around. For example Hera's main allegiance is to Zeus, and then to the wolves (just so happens that she can't win as a Lover without also winning as a wolf, so it's really the same), but if Zeus dies than her only allegiance is to the wolves.


So I have to leave in half an hour, and will be gone for about 7 hours. I won't make it to DL (since it's 2am for me (my bestie is clearly crazy) and I have to work in the morning).

x'ed with Greenie

[Inziladun]

Except there's no Cobbler. Though arguably the wolves' Lovers are kind of like Cobblers.

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?

And Nog, mate. I see you. ;)

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.

[wilwarin538]

The Lovers themselves are a wild card, unpredictable. They'll do whatever it takes to win, whether it means aligning themselves with the good or evil side, won't they?


But one of each of the Lovers is a wolf. So the only way they can win (survive til the end) is if the wolves also win. Therefore their only choice is to be allied to the wolves. If both were innocent then they'd be a wild card, but one being evil changes the whole dynamic.

[Inziladun]

But one of each of the Lovers is a wolf. So the only way they can win (survive til the end) is if the wolves also win. Therefore their only choice is to be allied to the wolves. If both were innocent then they'd be a wild card, but one being evil changes the whole dynamic.

Still, it goes for the other two pairs. I tend to put Lovers who win together into their own class, apart from other innocents. They've stuck a knife in my back to win before. :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

And Nog, mate. I see you. ;)

Edit- What I mean, Nog, is that you're visible.Oops... corrected.

About the wolves and lovers still... So correct me if I'm wrong.

Zeus (innocent) and Hera (wolf) are lovers who already know each others identities eg. Zeus knows one wolf and his immediate fate lies with her and thus in a wolf-victory? If we get Hera killed his alignment should change as his victory would thus be tied with the innocents winning?

The two other wolves know their lover's identity but the lovers don't know theirs. And the wolves are not allowed to communicate their lovers' identities to each other. But what kind of worries me is the possibility of them winning all together, the six of them... they coud form a powerful voting-block togehter if they could hint at each other about whom not to kill and if the innocent-sides of the pairings found out their lupine-lovers.

So can they win together or will it be just one lover-pair that can win? It's not probably too important in a few Days to come but might prove quite a turner later on.

[Eönwë]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I can't really think of a good solution:

What do we do if a Seer reveals?

[Rikae]

Foley, Day 1 can be very useful. That doesn't mean it has to be deadly serious at all times. Even joking can sometimes be useful; or, at least, anything that gets people talking - the more talk, the better, I say.

If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Hm - this means that when Poseidon comes back, another role will be revealed. One way of finding the false seer/a wolf, then.

So, why exactly are we debating over/voting on what the winning conditions for a surviving lover are? Isn't that for Glirdan to say?

[wilwarin538]

So can they win together or will it be just one lover-pair that can win? It's not probably too important in a few Days to come but might prove quite a turner later on.


Glirdy said there can be a 3 way Lover victory (which would also be a Wolf victory)

Gotta go now. I'll be back quite a bit later.

x'ed with Eonwe and Rikae

[the phantom]

But what kind of worries me is the possibility of them winning all together, the six of them... they coud form a powerful voting-block togehter if they could hint at each other about whom not to kill and if the innocent-sides of the pairings found out their lupine-lovers.
This is why early on I'd be more than willing to kill an "innocent" lover if I felt I had some idea who one was, as it would at the least remove the doomsday scenario of four wolves plus three lovers (plus possibly the cursed and the mytho!!) working in concert.

[Nogrod]

What do we do if a Seer reveals?We need to wait... as long as there is a list from both seers (thus both have decided to reveal) and there is at least one person whose identity can be confirmed to be the way one of them said it was - found out after they gave the name and identity, of course. Then we trust and try to protect the one who is the real seer.

Sadly there is a twist to this. The false seer seems to get a random pick for the role of the ones they dream of and thus s/he might get it right as well. So we actually face a possibility of not being able to pick the right seer unless there are multiple names in a list they produce. The chances are slight but existing.

Which should discourage the seers from revealing early. But well, that's their decision.

[the phantom]

What do we do if a Seer reveals?
Depends on what he says. The folks he reveals will know what to do more or less, but everyone else on the other hand...

[Nogrod]

Also we should remember that the false seer is on our side - and thus s/he should be most willing to learn if s/he has it right or not! So unlike in normal situation where we have contesting claims, this time they both are goodies trying to help.

Add...
And maybe s/he can figure it out already her/himself early in the game and come open about it?

[Eönwë]

So, why exactly are we debating over/voting on what the winning conditions for a surviving lover are? Isn't that for Glirdan to say?

Because it will almost certainly affect their gameplay. An innocent lover will try to defend xyr wolf lover, and therefore will be helping the wolf side. A lover win is a wolf win as well, at least as far as the village is concerned.

Of course, this means that there'll be lots of innocents who'll look like they might be wolves trying to save their packmates, which means that the least complex downside for the village (Or rather, settlement on Olympus) will be that some of them could be mistaken for wolves. It could also distract us from the actual wolves, and even worse could mean that the wolves (I'm thinking Ares or any wolf with a dead lover) could make it seem as if they were Lovers (and obviously, Lovers can't reveal).

So basically, I think we should treat anyone who defends/otherwise tries to save a wolf from lynching with as much suspicion as usual, because while xe could be a now-on-our side harmless ordo, xe could also be a wolf.


edit: x-ed with 2 Nogs and 2 phantoms

[Rikae]

Eönwë, be that as it may, it's still for the mod, not us, to say. It is a bit confusing, since an innocent whose wolf-lover is killed gets special abilities and so, presumably, has some goal toward which to use them, but we don't know what that goal is. I think we need modly clarification. on that.
We can speculate all we want about what they would do in that situation, but it doesn't mean much.

[the phantom]

And maybe s/he can figure it out already her/himself early in the game and come open about it?
A good thought, but I'm not so certain that we want the false Seer to reveal, as that would help the baddies narrow down who they should night-kill.

Plus, don't forget that the Wolves can dream too! Hera and Hephaestus both can dream if their lover is killed under the right circumstances, and what if they dream of the Seer, eh? If the false Seer has already revealed, they'll know that's the real one. But if the false Seer hasn't revealed, they may use their dream on him.

And of course they'll probably kill the Seer anyway, not knowing for certain if it's the real one, but still- at least we forced them to flush their dream on the false Seer, right? I see no reason to help the WWs make accurate night choices.
it's still for the mod, not us, to say
Glirdan has answered on the admin thread. Lovers can win with the WWs, and after a WW-lover dies the remaining lover sides with the village.

[Nienna]

Hello, children. I'm here and will probably need to vote a bit early so I don't fall asleep at work tomorrow. Some thoughts that I've had so far:

I often find that ignoring the phantom helps my sanity.

Thanks Wilwa! You're fabulous.

I agree with Nog that the False Seer should want to help us just as much as the real seer. After all they think they could be the real seer. Generally the only time a Seer reveals is after they have dreamed of a wolf or if they are going to be lynched and I think this is important to stick with. We don't want lots of random seer claims going on (and just think if a wolf false-reveals! :rolleyes:) to just add chaos to this already potentially chaotic situation.

That's all I've got for now. I'll pop in with any other thoughts I have.

Edit: x-ed with Rikae and Phantom

[Rikae]

Glirdan has answered on the admin thread. Lovers can win with the WWs, and after a WW-lover dies the remaining lover sides with the village.
Which means there's really no point in debating over it.

[Rikae]

A good thought, but I'm not so certain that we want the false Seer to reveal, as that would help the baddies narrow down who they should night-kill.


What's worse: the baddies being able to eliminate one person from the potential-seer list, or the village being led astray by a false seer?

If the false seer is killed, the role won't be revealed in the narration, right? So even if the wolves kill the false seer after dreaming of xem, the village may be left following false hints.

[the phantom]

I can see what you are saying, Rikae, but in my point answering Nog we were working with the assumption that the false Seer knew he was false, and thus I trust he would not leave us following false hints, but rather would somehow leave behind an indication of the fact that he cannot be trusted.

[Rikae]

As for lovers trying to save wolves, and wolves using the possibility as cover, sure; among any of a number of other reasons someone might try to save a wolf: a false seer who has dreamed them as innocent, for instance; the wolf is a cursed who was dreamed of as innocent by the real seer; an (effective) ordo thinks they've spotted a sure sign of innocence in the wolf; whatever. Even in an ordinary game, there are multiple reasons this might happen, and in this game, even more.
Plus, I was asking about the Romeo & Juliet business above concerning lovers after the death of their partner - which is moot, even more so than I realized, and it seems the same person who was debating over it knew it was moot all along - and which has nothing to do with what you just brought up. Where did this come from?

[Rikae]

I can see what you are saying, Rikae, but in my point answering Nog we were working with the assumption that the false Seer knew he was false, and thus I trust he would not leave us following false hints, but rather would somehow leave behind an indication of the fact that he cannot be trusted.

I'm sure it would take the false seer a while to discover this, though, and in the meantime, any sensible seer would leave a trail.

[Folwren]

Just I a hunch I got - my guess right now is that Kath and Nogrod, at least, are not among the pairs of lovers. If either of them are a lover, they are one of the wolves...but I can't say I think that much yet. I just think they're not one of the 'innocent' lovers, so to speak.

My reasoning? It's vague, but here it is, as best as I can express it in words. Kath brought up the question of innocent lovers, and Nogrod kept it up with more questioning of his own. I kind of figure (and I could be wrong), that someone who was a lover would know his or her role quite well, and if they didn't, would PM the mod about it instead of discussing it here. Others have spoken more firmly about what the lovers' roles are (Eonwe, for instance, the Phantom, etc.) Still others who are really lovers may have remained silent altogether.

Who has left to say anything toDay?

I will have to vote early every day. I don't know how early or anything, but it will be early, as deadline is about 1 a.m., I think...?

And all this seer stuff is way confusing. I didn't know seers revealed themsevles. I guess things 'ave changed since I last played.

Edit: Cross posted with Phantom and 2 Rikae's.

[Eönwë]

And maybe s/he can figure it out already her/himself early in the game and come open about it?

Or not reveal at all and try not to say anything too incriminating. Though the latter could get xem lynched and the former mean that all of these would be analysed in detail. So perhaps it would be better for the False Seer to come clean after all if xe realises that that's what xe is.

Luckily for us, there are 20 separate roles, meaning that there is only a 1/20 chance of the False Seer getting it right. Of course, there still is that chance, and there still is the chance that the False Seer will have all correct dreams (of course, then it doesn't matter), and the problem with even one correct dream is that we may end up trusting the false seer and allowing the true to get killed by the wolves, and then realise that the one correct role was just a stroke of luck.

Perhaps Pan and Eros could take turns in protecting both of the Seers until we work out who is the real one (or one of them gets Night killed- there would be no sense whatsoever in not revealing in this case). Is this allowed? (The repeat protection by the Ranger and Hunter Guardian taking turns.)

I can see this is going to be a very confusing game...

edit: x-ed with the last post on page 2

[the phantom]

Plus, I was asking about the Romeo & Juliet business above concerning lovers after the death of their partner - which is moot, even more so than I realized, and it seems the same person who was debating over it knew it was moot all along - and which has nothing to do with what you just brought up. Where did this come from?
My R&J thing was in answer to Nerwen, and she made her comments (and I gave my answers) before there was Mod clarification. You may say there was no point in anyone but the Mod answering, but what if the Mod had left alignment to be a choice to surviving lovers? Given that possibility I thought that it was in our best interest to attempt to establish a "proper" way of behaving that would benefit the village (i.e. to establish that lovers should help the village after losing their mates).

So no, the point was not known to be moot. It had the possibility of being important. But once the point was made crystal clear by the Mod the discussion was over.
I'm sure it would take the false seer a while to discover this, though, and in the meantime, any sensible seer would leave a trail.
Do you really think a village would be stupid enough to start at the beginning of the Seer trail and follow it to a lynch without first checking the end of the trail for signs that the Seer knew he was false?

Again- Nog and I were discussing a Seer who knew he was false. That fact completely negates (or should anyway) the idea of following their words to disaster.

[Macalaure]

I had to study the roles again before I could post. So many baddies and gifteds - the good thing is that each players special abilities are less important compared to the total number of special abilities. I mean, the shirrifs, for example, are almost the same as ordos in this game. With all these roles, the problem which arises is that everybody has something to hide. Usually, the majority of players are ordos, and if somebody looks like they're hiding something, you can focus on them and try to figure out whether they're gifted or a wolf. In this setting, the wolves are able to hide extremely well. I'm tempted to go for passive ones on Day1.

There's too much talk about the lovers. They have to be loyal to their wolves (once they know them), then they're back on the village's side once the wolf is dead. While the innocent lovers can be useful, they can also be problematic, so lynching them isn't that bad. However, children, with all the lover talk, don't forget that lynching a wolf is still much, much better!
That's all there is to say, so let's move on.

There's also too much talk about the false seer. The seers have to figure out for themselves which is the real one. Once the false one knows who he is, he can still be helpful by trying to find the real one, otherwise he can consider himself to be an ordo. He might reveal himself so the real seer knows he's real, especially since his life isn't worth very much anymore. As for revealing seers who are real (or think so), it will be difficult to tell the false seer from a bluffing baddie, but otherwise it's the same as always: Seers have to kept alive at all cost. Better risk being accidentally misled by a false than lightly risking the real seer.


Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.


I suggest that we NOT lynch Phantom, as he has not said anything remarkably ridiculous this game.Yet, Yet! Let's try to preempt it this time. :p

I didn't know seers revealed themsevles.Seers in serious danger of getting lynched often do, hoping the ranger will protect them one Night and they can be sure to have one more dream. Sometime seers that think they have enough knowledge do, too, so they don't have to fear being Night-killed and losing their knowledge to the village.

[Rikae]

I didn't check when Glirdan answered on the admin thread, I admit. As for trying to establish a proper way of the lovers for behaving, that's what I thought you were doing, and didn't believe in it. But there's no point in getting into that now. Clearly you have a stronger belief in your powers of persuasion than I do.

Do you really think a village would be stupid enough to start at the beginning of the Seer trail and follow it to a lynch without first checking the end of the trail for signs that the Seer knew he was false?

Well, I consider it entirely possible that I might miss or misinterpret a false seer's attempt to hint at being false amid hints at xyr dreams. Most seer hints I've seen were far from explicit and clear. Perhaps that's because I'm stupid, though. I cheerfully admit it: I'm a blithering idiot.

EDIT: X'd with Mac.

[A Little Green]

I'm in trouble. I want to go to sleep soon and in all likelihood won't be back before DL. The trouble is, I obviously have no clue about who to vote, it's so early and so many people haven't even showed yet! I so don't like the deadline. I think I'll be off to reread the little that has been written, and be back with comments and thoughts and vague Day 1 suspicions (hopefully).

[Rikae]

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

Interesting. Perhaps just a bit of colorful in-character talk, though. Perhaps something else. I would say your interpretation is less likely than the three possibilities I'm considering.

[the phantom]

I didn't check when Glirdan answered on the admin thread, I admit. As for trying to establish a proper way of the lovers for behaving, that's what I thought you were doing, and didn't believe in it. But there's no point in getting into that now. Clearly you have a stronger belief in your powers of persuasion than I do.
It wasn't just my power of persuasion that I was counting on. Given that the behavior I was attempting to set up was advantageous to the village, I assumed many would come on board just because of that fact (it would be counter-productive not to). And then with the combined weight of the entire village saying "It would be fair and proper and right for the lover to do behavior XY" I figured that would be enough to sway the average lover.

So, I had less faith in my individual persuasive ability than I did in the combined peer pressure power of the entire village. Not to mention I figured there was at the least a very small chance that someone would insist on putting forth the idea and defend the idea that the lover could remain on the side of the WWs out of loyalty to their lost love. Doing that would obviously be to the detriment of the village and thus be a possible flag of a baddie or at the least someone who wasn't helpful.
Well, I consider it entirely possible that I might miss or misinterpret a false seer's attempt to hint at being false amid hints at xyr dreams. Most seer hints I've seen were far from explicit and clear.
Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.

[Eönwë]

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Looking back on it, I see what you mean. He mentions "great Zeus" and then "almighty Zeus", so there probably is some hidden meaning.

I think Dionysus may have poisoned me (I feel quite sick), so I'm probably only going to be back near the end of the Day.

[Inziladun]

So perhaps it would be better for the False Seer to come clean after all if xe realises that that's what xe is.

I think I agree with this. When the false Seer still believes xemself to be the real one, xe might well leave hints for the village to follow in case of their death. If xe discovers, through the death of one they'd dreamed, that they are the false one, they need to come clean to stop us making anything of their comments or votes.

Perhaps Pan and Eros could take turns in protecting both of the Seers until we work out who is the real one (or one of them gets Night killed- there would be no sense whatsoever in not revealing in this case). Is this allowed? (The repeat protection by the Ranger and Hunter Guardian taking turns.)

I would think they could protect anyone they like, except maybe themselves, for one Night at a time. I guess that's another question for the mod though, as I didn't see it in the Admin Thread.

x/d with phantom and steve

[Folwren]

Okay, folks, someone explain to me what is going on with the random 'xe's' in posts?

I have nothing of substantial weight or purpose to add.

-- Foley

[Loslote]

Also, Boro is acting weird. I think he must have a special role of some kind. Loslote, too. And especially Nerwen, Wilwa, Eonwe and BeiGe. Phantom, however, just seems like a clueless ordo.

Win. :p

As for the False-Seer debate, if the False Seer realizes who they are, they could leave just as many hints telling us this as they left hints telling us their dreams. Seer-hints are always shaky things to rely on, and if we find hints telling us that that Seer's false, we're hardly going to try to ferret their dreams out. I don't think the False-Seer should reveal.

EDIT: xed with Steve and Foley - xe is a gender neutral way of saying "he" or "she". It's used instead of "they"...although I used "they" in this post, so nyah. :p

[Folwren]

Thanks, Loslote.

Okay.......I really hate doing this. But I'm about to leave and highly doubt I'll have any access to a computer or internet for the rest of the day. So I'm voting.

I have nothing real to go on. Please don't read too much into this vote.

++Eonwe

Best I can say is that I just think that of everyone that's posted....he seems most like the one who is trying to be natural and is almost succeeding but isn't quite. Pathetic, I know. I have nothing better to offer.

Have fun without me.

[Loslote]

Foley, you have to highlight your vote for it to count. The format is [ highlight] words [ /highlight] but without spaces.

[Blind Guardian]

She's not here. I say in these cases just count the vote since the voter doesn't have a chance to correct it.

[Glirdan]

Don't worry about it, I'll send her a PM to let her know how to do it.

For toDay, I am counting it as her vote.

You may proceed.

[Rikae]

So, I had less faith in my individual persuasive ability than I did in the combined peer pressure power of the entire village.
I lack faith in that as well, at least not in this village. There are quite a few people here I wouldn't at all expect to bow to peer pressure.

I can't say it's really harmful for you to have tried it, though, as long as it wouldn't have resulted in a general blind trust of people who may not be on the village's side after all.

Not to mention I figured there was at the least a very small chance that someone would insist on putting forth the idea and defend the idea that the lover could remain on the side of the WWs out of loyalty to their lost love. Doing that would obviously be to the detriment of the village and thus be a possible flag of a baddie or at the least someone who wasn't helpful.

Yeah, I suspected as much. It's a neat way to create a suspect, isn't it? But I do mean create, and not find, since it's very much a matter of style and philosophy whether someone considers it a good thing to forge a general agreement of how certain players should act that goes beyond (at the time) the admin thread. It could be argued (by an innocent) that such agreements are unfair, or misleading, or an attempt at distraction.. I think I can recall you innocently attempting to reach similar "peer pressure" agreements before, though.

Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.
Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.

Okay, folks, someone explain to me what is going on with the random 'xe's' in posts?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xe
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun)

[Loslote]

Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.

I'm not sure about that. In hindsight, hints like that don't have to be blatant. They can be subtle enough to fool wolves while being noticeable enough to stand out to those looking for them.

[Nogrod]

Eros: Will NOT be able to guard himself (as he is also part Hunter)

Pah: WILL be able to guard himself but may only do so once.

So there is no ruling to deny the group-work from Eros and Pan? Really? Well, hey, we've used any loophole in the rules before as well - even if I have thought double-rangers always been against the spirit of the game...

So both seers reveal, we make a deal that Pan protects A and Eros B and the other way around the next Night and so on - until the wolves figure out who either Pan or Eros are and do away with one (they need not come forwards, just silently stick to the plan we others come up with). Well that's a head-on tactics which would surely cause a stir, and be a bit dangerous: just one of the guardians need to mess up with the rangering and we have the seer flushed out very early on and the wolves having a chance to go at her/him... but then again the wolves would need to check that out every Night (whether one of the rangers is missing her/his duties) and thus waste their kills... and thence not be able to find them just trying to kill the seers - unless we try to lynch one of them rangers of course... hmm.

Surely it's up to the seers to decide on this.

Being a sporty player I do personally dislike the automatic protection -idea. In a way it's a bit unfair - but this has it's dangers as well. So at least discussing it wouldn't be that unsporty? It would be quite a fool-proof way to grant our seer multiple Nights to dream - unless we had real bad luck or someone really messes up what s/he's supposed to do...


So what say you?

[Loslote]

So what say you?

There are revenge-kills in play, too. We'd flush out the Seers and leave them to die at the hands of angry lovers. I think, besides the fact that it is rather unsportsmanlike, it's too dangerous.

[Rikae]

I'm not sure about that. In hindsight, hints like that don't have to be blatant. They can be subtle enough to fool wolves while being noticeable enough to stand out to those looking for them.

Not in the case Phantom was talking about - the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village? There really is no benefit to the false seer keeping quiet in general, although in some circumstances there might be.

EDIT: X'd with Nog and Loslote, also somehow attributed Lottie's quote above to Folwren.

[Loslote]

Not in the case Phantom was talking about - the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village? There really is no benefit to the false seer keeping quiet in general, although in some circumstances there might be.

That wasn't Foley who said that, it was me. And I'm not talking about the case The Phantom was talking about - I'm talking about keeping the False Seer hidden to provide another layer of protection for the real Seer.

[the phantom]

I lack faith in that as well, at least not in this village. There are quite a few people here I wouldn't at all expect to bow to peer pressure.
Well definitely they wouldn't once it is called out for what it is, but had things proceeded unhindered I think it would be a fair bet that at least half would follow the common logic. I would most likely do so myself, as I would consider it in bad taste to go against what is perceived as the proper balance of things etc.
Yeah, I suspected as much. It's a neat way to create a suspect, isn't it? But I do mean create, and not find, since it's very much a matter of style and philosophy whether someone considers it a good thing to forge a general agreement of how certain players should act that goes beyond (at the time) the admin thread.
But in my mind arguing against the point out of a sense of "style" would be bad form, as the first priority of a good villager is to do what is possible to win. If there is a situation that arises where there is clearly one side that is an advantage to the good side, the good villager should take it. Not doing so would run contrary to their whole alignment thus disturbing the balance set up by the Moderator. At least that's how I view it.
Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.
Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.
I assumed someone would say this, and the answer- there still remains a difference between hinting and outright revealing, and that difference is primarily an issue of time and being thorough. It is possible for Werewolves to miss hints, as at busy stages of the game it is nearly impossible to examine every last post of every person in complete detail, where as on the other hand no way would the WWs miss an open reveal.

So, a hinting false Seer can leave hints that, if you know to look for them, can be found, but if you don't know to single out that individual you may pass over them.

(looking back I see that Lottie appears to have made this exact point)

[Nogrod]

There are revenge-kills in play, too. We'd flush out the Seers and leave them to die at the hands of angry lovers.That's actually a good point (had to check the rules once again). And what's most dangerous, it's the wolves from the lover-pair that have the revenge-kills - so they'd have every reason to go for our seers - unlike if the revenge-kills were with the innocent parts of the love-relationships. True.

It requires the lover-pairs to have found each other though and the innocent one of them dying so it might take some time things get that far, but anyway you're right, it looks a bit too risky.

So let's forget the idea.

[Rikae]

So there is no ruling to deny the group-work from Eros and Pan? Really? Well, hey, we've used any loophole in the rules before as well - even if I have thought double-rangers always been against the spirit of the game...

So both seers reveal, we make a deal that Pan protects A and Eros B and the other way around the next Night and so on - until the wolves figure out who either Pan or Eros are and do away with one (they need not come forwards, just silently stick to the plan we others come up with). Well that's a head-on tactics which would surely cause a stir, and be a bit dangerous: just one of the guardians need to mess up with the rangering and we have the seer flushed out very early on and the wolves having a chance to go at her/him... but then again the wolves would need to check that out every Night (whether one of the rangers is missing her/his duties) and thus waste their kills... and thence not be able to find them just trying to kill the seers - unless we try to lynch one of them rangers of course... hmm.

Surely it's up to the seers to decide on this.

Being a sporty player I do personally dislike the automatic protection -idea. In a way it's a bit unfair - but this has it's dangers as well. So at least discussing it wouldn't be that unsporty? It would be quite a fool-proof way to grant our seer multiple Nights to dream - unless we had real bad luck or someone really messes up what s/he's supposed to do...


So what say you?

An interesting idea. I suppose it's not any more risky that the rangers will get killed than that the seers will, and at least this way we'll have the benefit of all the seers' information out in the open, all the time.

But what's to prevent a false reveal from tying up one of the rangers?

EDIT: X'd with TP & Nog.

[A Little Green]

Okay, I'm so confused I'll make a list. I don't think I've ever done it this early in the game, but at least I'm making sure I don't forget to consider somebody. I think the names of my two categories pretty much sum up my feelings at this point. ;)

Won't vote:
Wilwa - Will definitely not receive my vote toDay. I have seen nothing that would make my alarm bells ring, and she's helpful and makes sense.
Lottie - I'm leaning towards finding her innocent.
Eonwe - Looks genuine this far.
Nerwen - Leaning innocent too - a bit less calculating than an evil Nerwen would be. I think.
Folwren - Posts sense and brings up points from an innocentish point of view. Definitely not going to vote for her toDay.
Lalaith - Her one post this far could go either way. I'm debating. But as I have nothing definite I will probably not vote her toDay. (She's playing her first game in ages, and it would seem unfair to lynch her randomly on Day 1. If I start to find her wolvish, though, I'll stop playing it fair. :p)

Confuses me:
Kath - She made it to Day 1! I'm proud of her. :p Other than that, I really can't say this or that about her, she hasn't said much.
Boro - Is confusing me to no end. His great Zeus left me quite baffled, as all the reasons I can think of for him saying that make no sense whatsoever.
Mira - I'm mainly confused about her not posting as Mira. She's posted once this far, so I believe I'm excused for having no effing idea.
Zil - I'm always bad at reading him, and this far this game doesn't look like an exception.
Blind Guardian - Nothing of substance this far. No idea, therefore.
Nienna - Has posted once but posted sense. I know she's excellent at posting sense even when a wolf though so I'm making no assumptions about her role.
autume - A one-liner and a two-liner. In other words, too little to say anything definite especially as I haven't played with her (I assume it's a she?) before - but just judging by the tone I'd say she is not a wolf. She seems - well - too little excited and tense, like, even a bit bored?
Rikae - Active and keeps the conversation running, I like it. That has nothing to do with her role, though, I have no idea about that! Confusing.
Shasta - Haven't seen him this far. Sad.
Mac - Makes sense, but also makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Especially the following:You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.So he's implying that Nerwen is Hades (ergo a wolf), but doesn't make a move to actually start suspecting her? If you think you've caught a wolf, why just mention it offhand instead of making a case and trying to get your supposed wolf lynched? Fishy, I'd say.
Nog - For some reason I have no opinion on him whatsoever. (Usually I'm at his throat already at this point of the game.)
Phantom - I could copy-paste what I said about Nog as it pretty much applies to phantom too. If I had to voice an opinion I'd say I was leaning towards finding him innocent, though.
Sally - Confuses me, as usual, or more than usual, actually.


EDIT: x-ed since Lottie's #95

[the phantom]

the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village?
Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

[Rikae]

Phantom - although I'm beginning to think this whole discussion better be wrapped up, so we can get on to more useful things - half the village may or may not matter, depending on which half the lovers are in.

And you talk about matters of "style" being bad "form" while you consider it bad "taste" to go against the dictates of the majority. Well, I reply that it is bad "taste" and "form" not to allow individual players to play according to their own "style", unless, that is, you prefer to play with a village of robots. Furthermore, if the lovers had indeed been barred from winning and without an alignment after their partners' death, trying to obscure that fact would mean, as you put it, "disturbing the balance set up by the Moderator."

But in general, I will say that I always put good form and fairness, as I see them, first - ahead of my own victory. If that makes me suspicious, so be it.

It is possible for Werewolves to miss hints, as at busy stages of the game it is nearly impossible to examine every last post of every person in complete detail, where as on the other hand no way would the WWs miss an open reveal.

As I said to Loslote, you were talking about wolves who have dreamt of the "seer". They would have a whole night to go over the quotes of this alleged seer and decide whether or not to kill xem, and, if they're in a situation where their choice of kill is especially important (which you're assuming) there is no reason to suppose they'll miss something that will be obvious to the villagers the next day, with exactly the same information.

EDIT: X'd with Phantom.

[Blind Guardian]

Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Xd with Rikae.

[Rikae]

Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

Hm, in the case that they dream of xem because of xyr seer-hints? Well, let the false seer hint away, then. I'm sure the wolves will pick up what we want them to pick up, and miss what we want them to miss. :p

[A Little Green]

Rikae is making a whole lot of sense right now. Other than that, it's 1 AM and I've just started to re-adjust to the Finnish schedule, so I'm not going to mess that up by staying up ridiculously late because of an American deadline. :p Therefore, I'm going with the only thing I have:

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water. I have nothing proper on others. I'm too tired to repeat the argument now, but it's in my previous post. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae who has an avatar scarily similar to mine! :D

[Nogrod]

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

One thing that bothers me is this whole bussiness with Boro and his almighty Zeus stuff. I mean it's possible he tried something but somehow I find the discussion around it even more suspicious. Needs to check.

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

Eonwë's suggestion of the rangers picking turns makes him look more innocent than not as that is clearly an idea thrown in without thinking it through and I don't think a wolf-Eonwë would have tried that kind of bluff opening up a possibly devastating tactics to the innocents. The same goes with Zil's keeping up the idea on the list.

I like the fact that Greenie actually produced a list - even if there's little in it (but green things :rolleyes:).

X'd with Greenie... back in a few moments after re-reading a few things.

[Kath]

Bedtime for me - as I said it'll be early votes from me!

++BLIND GUARDIAN

There have been a lot of people throwing one liners out. It's Day 1, it's normal. But from most of those with one liners there seems to have been at least something a little useful, at least since some actual discussion started. From Blind Guardian we have two posts about the actual game itself, and neither is constructive:

1: Hello people I am here. But I have to leave. So...MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!

2: Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Well something did happen. Lots happened! And if you're confused don't just put that as a random statement - make clear what you're confused about so it can be explained! If it's the false Seer business I'm sure neither Rikae or phantom would mind explaining it again if it means they get to argue more. :p On the subject of which, it's too early to tell whether that's innocents/guilty parties/bluffs etc, but it will definitely leave points for discussion in later Days.

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):

It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.

And that's it from me for toDay.

[Boromir88]

May we put a freeze on posts for about an hour so I can keep up? Yeesh. :rolleyes:

As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.

I'm not exactly understanding the big deal other than I essentially repeated the phantom allied with lovers scenario without knowing I was possibly repeating it.

[Nogrod]

Here's what he said initially.
One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.
Then Wilwa goes like this: I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Eonwë commented: I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.
And Wilwa answered: Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.
Then it's Rikae: I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something.
Then Wilwa again: And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.Mac comes to it after some silence on the subject: Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.Eonwë once again is at it: Looking back on it, I see what you mean. He mentions "great Zeus" and then "almighty Zeus", so there probably is some hidden meaning.Greenie mentions Boro in a long list of people confusing her: Boro - Is confusing me to no end. His great Zeus left me quite baffled, as all the reasons I can think of for him saying that make no sense whatsoever.

Now there are a few things that bother me. Firstly it looks like totally odd as Zeus and Hera actually know each other already and thence there would be no reason for either of them trying to make contact - or anyone else to try and make contact with Zeus for that matter (as there being someone who could really benefit getting Zeus' notice, or how that kind of hinting would help revealing her/his role to him) - and all hinting of one's own personality I think was stirctly banned in the rules (and I can't see the benefit Zeus would have to reveal himself as Zeus, on D1 at least). So a hoaks? Much ado about nothing? Well, secondly it looks like those things wolves love to jump on: when they have no real suspicions themselves - because all they should suspect are innocents - they like to cling on scenarios some others suggest or that stand out in any possible way. Looking at the number of comments where Boro's wordings were deemed suspicious or noteworthy of a raised eyebrow I'd bet there are wolves involved.

[autume98]

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.



I second this! There has been some good discussion, but it also seem like there has been some dragged on discussion regarding the lovers.

I don't think the Seers should reveal. Obviously they should give some hints, confuse some wolves, and hopefully help out the town while they are at it.

I think I skipped over the Zeus comments so I'll have to go back and see if there is anything there.

[Lalaith]

Some interesting discussions here - I think the stuff about how to deal with the true/false seers is very helpful. Lots of people have actually been genuinely helpful today, and normally I go with that as a sign of innocence...unfortunately, I think that in this game, everyone, guilties and innocents alike, is trying to make sense of things so that is no longer a helpful guideline on how to vote.

Well, I am, like a few others here, forced to vote early due to European timezones. It's a baffling choice even by first day standards, and all I've got to go on is a hunch that the following vote could throw up something useful:
++BOROMIR

PS, how do I make this go red?

[Rikae]

Re: Mac's comment about Nerwen - I thought that perhaps he was trying to confuse Persephone into picking Nerwen, who I doubted (and figured Mac doubted, since he didn't try to get her lynched) was actually Hades. I didn't really think a wolf would have made the comment Nerwen did, as it seemed too risky. But Mac, feel free to correct me - though, if you say I'm wrong, I may end up suspecting you, too. ;)

[Nogrod]

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):
"It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either."
Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.Now there is actually a huge difference in suspecting Zeus and Hera calling each other on the thread (which is not a thing they would need to do as they already know each other) than suspecting that Hades is trying to send a message to Persephone (which would make a lot of sense as the latter really needs to find the former for their love to become true).

Now as suspicions go on Day1 I find it perfectly justified to suspect Nerwen for being Hades and searching for Persephone, but the way Mac states it in a most vague way - praising Wilwa's notice of it, saying it's "definitively deliberate" and not a slip - but that it doesn't make sense raises my eyebrows considerably. What were you trying to say? Downplay Nerwen's possible guilt by bringing the idea to the fore? That would be bold and not smart. But Kath's defence of Mac looks odd as well. Just as Mac manages to say Boro's remarks were deliberate and not slips but hints, she says Mac meant they were not hints... Oh my. There's something fishy in here but it's hard to say what. Too many possibilities of which most don't make sense (I see I'm following Mac's and Greenie's reasoning here :rolleyes:)

[Nogrod]

PS, how do I make this go red?write the word highlight instead of B to both ends...

[Loslote]

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.

[Nogrod]

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

And unlike Rikae seems to think, I think it perfectly probable that the wolf-lovers would try to attract their lovers on Day1 to finalise their love asap and make them so much stronger! To wolf-lovers it is a catastrophic situation as long as their innocent part has not recognized them: it means their death actually if the other one dies. With the lover found they have many more options to win and at least to live. So there is some real pressure and urgency in the wolves trying to find their lovers.

[Loslote]

Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

Maybe Nerwen thought she saw someone else hinting and was trying to confirm her suspicion, or maybe she just wanted him to be sure she was paying attention. Maybe she even threw it out in hopes that Hades would comment on it, just like we're all doing. I'll go back and see if there was anything she could have been responding to, trying to confirm a suspected hint.

[Loslote]

Well, things have come to a pretty pass! I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.

[Rikae]

Nog, I wasn't saying I didn't think it was possible that the wolves would hint, but that I thought that particular comment looked too risky.

Actually, though, on second thought, it may have seemed more risky purely due to the fact that Mac pointed it out. When I first read it, I saw it as in-character flavor and nothing more, so it may be that, objectively speaking, it wasn't that risky after all.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote. Maybe, but joking banter can conceal hints, too.

[Macalaure]

Just a comment now, more later.

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

The lovers are trying to find each other - we have to look for hints.

[Nogrod]

A correction to the earlier post. I checked the rules and realised there are such different variations as to who knows who with the lover-pairs.

So. If someone else has also missed those let me remind you of our situation - especially in eye of finding someone looking for a mate or signalling others.

Zeus and Hera know each other and may PM so there is no need of sending messages of identification between the two.

With Hades and Persephone, Hades know who Persephone is but she doesn't know him. So Hades should try to send a hint. Interestingly the only possible hint found thus far is about Hades...

Neither Hephaistos or Aphrodite know each others identity so they'd both like to know it. So both need to make hints.

Ares is the loner wolf, but then there is something I had totally forgotten and it made me think of a post I wondered while reading through earlier... well, there's Dionysos the cursed. What Thanatos the mod said: If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus.And here's something interesting: I think Dionysus may have poisoned me (I feel quite sick), so I'm probably only going to be back near the end of the Day.I'm quite sure the wolves have read the rules much more closer than we have so there's no risk of letting them know this. They have most probably read this already and notified it.

Also it would make sense of Eonwë's initial "wolf!" -post...

But what to do with him, that's another question.

X'd with Mac

[Inziladun]

Nog makes good points about Eönwë. His remark about Dionysus, which I took as a throw-away at the time, wouldn't seem to have any innocent context (innocent, as in meaningless) here. Why not just say "I'm ill"?
I'm not sure what to do based on that, either though. I'd like to hear what steve has to say about it.

[Inziladun]

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

If Boro is part of one of the other lover pairs, why would he think name-dropping Zeus might lead his unknown counterpart to him? :confused:

[Rikae]

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink." :D

[Inziladun]

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink." :D

Admin thread says:

Dionysus – God of Wine – Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.
And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16? :eek:

[Nienna]

The Steve-slip is an interesting thing. It seems a little bit too bold unless he wants to be lynched so he isn't night-killed. Hmmm it bears close watching and I will definitely be waiting for that explanation as long as it doesn't come too late in the Day.

[Nogrod]

And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16? :eek:Welcome the pro crime-investigator! :) *still reading through the thread to find any hints, back soon*

X'd with Nienna

[Rikae]

If Boro is part of one of the other lover pairs, why would he think name-dropping Zeus might lead his unknown counterpart to him? :confused:

Allied with Zeus = allied with wolves, I suppose. Though Boro's explanation looks pretty honest to me.

Actually, right now I find myself more suspicious of the people who think they see hints everywhere - Wilwa, Mac, Nog - than of the people who are supposed to be doing the hinting. Eonwe's alleged hint sounds the most plausible, but in that case, it may just as well be a hint to the village (letting us know to lynch him if he's turned) as to the wolves. Nerwen's is indeed really embedded in the banter, but could still be something - but Boro's looks more like what he says it is than anything else to me.

[Inziladun]

Welcome the pro crime-investigator! :) *still reading through the thread to find any hints, back soon*

For the record, I'm anti-crime. ;)

[Nogrod]

The Steve-slip is an interesting thing. It seems a little bit too bold unless he wants to be lynched so he isn't night-killed.The problem for Dionysos actually is, how to get the wolves to pick him - for the wolf-role sure is what most would go for... So he has to do something to get their eyes on him - and the wolves would love an added one into their numbers as well, mind you.

[Blind Guardian]

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. :) Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Xed with everyone since 134

[Nogrod]

For the record, I'm anti-crime. ;):D

[Rikae]

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.
That's not what I meant. I mean, if the cursed is turned during the night, will the narration indicate this? If so, we can just lynch Eonwe after the cursed is turned, if he is.
And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16? :eek:
Is he? Didn't know that. I believe in the UK the drinking age is 18...

[Nogrod]

Allied with Zeus = allied with wolves, I suppose. Though Boro's explanation looks pretty honest to me.

- but Boro's looks more like what he says it is than anything else to me.Allied with Hera would be allied with wolves, not allied with Zeus.

But other than that - as I've said already - I agree with you on finding those who suspect Boro more suspicious than Boro himself. That's one of the "hints" that don't make sense as hints - unlike Nerwen's and Eonwë's which make sense.

But are they enough or should someone be lynched on those? That's another matter (on which I myself need to make a decision rather sooner than later - looking at the clock).

[Inziladun]

That's not what I meant. I mean, if the cursed is turned during the night, will the narration indicate this? If so, we can just lynch Eonwe after the cursed is turned, if he is.

I don't know the answer to that. If there's no kill and we aren't told the reason why, it would make it bloody hard to figure out. Was the Cursed found? Did the Ranger or Guardian Hunter block it? I'll ask on the Admin Thread.

Is he? Didn't know that. I believe in the UK the drinking age is 18...

Meta, I know. I remember from the birthday thread.

x/d with Nog

[Rikae]

The problem for Dionysos actually is, how to get the wolves to pick him - for the wolf-role sure is what most would go for... So he has to do something to get their eyes on him - and the wolves would love an added one into their numbers as well, mind you.

This reminds me of a discussion we had in another game - and I think Steve was there too. Some of us would feel obliged, as a cursed villager, to make ourselves known so that the village could lynch us if turned.

If Steve is the cursed, chances are the wolves won't turn him now, anyway, since he'd be toast immediately and they'd probably rather get rid of an innocent during the night than turn a cursed who will die the next day. So really, he helped the village whether he intended to or not.

[Rikae]

Incidentally, because of the above, I tend to think there isn't much point in a cursed knowing they're cursed. Either they aren't really playing as an ordo when they technically are, or they don't get to play as a wolf if turned.

[Nerwen]

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.
That's okay. I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

[Loslote]

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned. As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.

As a side note, if the Ranger or Hunting Guardian protect the Cursed from a wolf attack, they're not Turned, are they? So we could, theoretically, keep Steve on our side as long as we wanted.

[Nogrod]

I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.Or didn't think anyone would notice it as you couldn't know people would start focusing on that later on the Day? :)

I went through the thread - not close reading but skimming it through - to find any hints about Hades (death), Hephaistos (forging, smiths), Aphrodite (love) or Dionysos (drinking) and sadly found only those that have been already mentioned, mainly Eonwë's and Nerwen's comments. So the lovers have been pretty careful.

Well, there is one good side to this: after all this talk and searching for hints they need to be much more careful in the future and the task of the lovers finding their mates will be harder - which reduces their power considerably as most their effects take place only after they have found one another.

[Nerwen]

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned.
Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.

As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.
However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

[Loslote]

Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.


However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

[Inziladun]

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

[Macalaure]

It's funny how toDay's debates can be divided up so nicely. :)


The initial stage:

(Almost) only bantering:
Loslote, BG, Eonwe, Autume (her comment about the usefulness of Day1 and then admitting that she forgot you can lynch people looks bad)

phantom
doing phantommy things, less annoying than usual.

Nerwen
drops the name Hades in her first post, amidst banter. Not much helpfulness after it

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

Wilwa
sensible, but Wilwolf is sensible, too, so I'm wary. Certainly not going to vote her toDay, though.

Foley
I don't remember her style, to be honest. She seems earnest in her attempt to contribute, so I'm fine with her for now.

Rikae
is hard to read

Inzil
not sure, but vaguely bad feeling

Feel fine:
Lalaith, Greenie, Nogrod

Barely there:
Sally, Kath, Keeper of Mirandir


The "let's talk about roles"-stage

I really dislike excessive role and rule discussion. It enables wolves to participate without actually doing anything while innocents are occupied with something other than finding them.

People getting themselves dragged into lovers/seers/whatnot discussion:
phantom, Foley, Wilwa, Nog, Nerwen, Inzil, Eonwe, Rikae, Nienna, Loslote.

Out of these, Nerwen, Inzil, Nienna and Loslote seem most suspicious, since they're staying around the fringes and/or haven't contributed much else otherwise.


The "let's talk about people's hints"-stage

Greenie
List of people. I'd like to know why Lottie and Nerwen seem innocent to her. "a bit less calculating" is kind of vague. She votes me since I'm the only one she has anything on, which is fair, but it still seems foul to me. Suspecting her to be Persephone (defends Nerwen, who could be Hades, votes me over my point against Nerwen) at this point would go too far, but it's tempting.

Kath
defends me, which is nice. :) She misunderstands me, too, but maybe that's because I really wasn't clear enough in my first post.

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

Nogrod
throws himself into the Zeus affair heads first and follows Greenie's reasons. I don't get a suspicious feel. Then he brings up Eonwe, which is fair, but he keeps on talking about him, even though there's no way we are going to lynch a possible cursed toDay. He also keeps on misunderstanding my point against Boro, even though Rikae explained it plainly again.

Autume
passive => suspicious

Lalaith
votes Boro, which might come to haunt her should we find Boro innocent, especially since she didn't have any case against him. That's why she's probably not evil, since they would have been more careful who to vote randomly.

Rikae
hm, tricking Persephone would have been a good idea, too, in hindsight :D
Seems very innocent in this part.

Loslote
is a bit confusing and back-and-forth with her opinion on Nerwen.

Inzil
still have a bad feeling: only talks about Eonwe.

Nienna
her only post here is about Eonwe, too.

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

[autume98]

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

I think it'd be good for Eonwe to comment on this. I personally am leaning towards him being innocent at this point. However am going to be keeping my eye on him.

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! :cool: And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too. :smokin:

[Nogrod]

Well then.

I'm pretty sure Eonwë is the cursed villager and he wishes to be a wolf.

Do you remember his first post
Murderers? What are we, Titans?
And how did the mortal(s) manage to get here? I'm pretty sure I didn't see Zeus didn't let them in.

Also:
"Wolf!"

There, now my first post really is screaming it to all of you.

And then there is the Dionysos-stuff.

Both scream "see who I am wolves!" to me. So he went all he could trying to get their attention and to make him their target.

The problem is as the rules say: Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.That seems to me quite clear. Dionysos knows about his role and can have a mindset of a wannabe-wolf (which to me seems to be the case) - and I share my feeling with Rikae here that this is not a good practise as it makes the cursed most likely into a cobbler from the beginning of the game (there are different cursed to be sure, but that's the average reaction).

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. So Dionysos is a threat to the end of the game and after all this row it's pretty likely that if Eonwë isn't a wolf they will try him anyway. So it's just how probable we think his role as Dionysos is?

Some words on others in a moment, a vote, and then to sleep...

[Loslote]

Wilwa - seems to be helpful and all that. Not going to vote her; talkative people are awesome.

Kath - haven't gotten a sense of her yet, but not going to vote for her because I've never played with her before.

Boro - not ringing many bells, so probably won't vote for him toDay.

Keepandir of Dol Mira - not much to go on.

Zil - seems to be pretty innocent. Not going to vote for him toDay.

BeiGei - looks pretty normal. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Lottie - is awesome, like normal. Not going to vote for her toDay.

Eonwe - possible Cursed; probably won't vote for him toDay because he's probably not a wolf.

Nienna - has been pretty quiet. Possibly submarine; possibly busy. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Nerwen - seems pretty innocent. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Folwren - not getting much of a sense for her, either, but again, have never played with her and thus will not vote for her.

Tum - I have no idea. Possible submarine. Might vote for her toDay, because of her quietness and because of her lack of contribution when she does post.

Lalaith - see Kath and Foley.

Greenie - seems pretty innocent, but I'm not at all sure of anything about her. Probably won't vote her, though.

Rikae - makes sense and seems like normal Rikae. Won't vote for her toDay.

Shasta - he exists??

Mac - feels slightly off in all his posts, and isn't really making many helpful posts. Might vote for him.

Nog - makes sense, makes good points, is being logical, not going to vote for him toDay.

Phantom - I have no idea. Is definitely contributing. :rolleyes: I've never played with him, so I'm not going to vote him toDay.

Sally - haven't seen anything really off, so probably won't vote for her toDay.

So...Mac or Tum are likely to get my vote toDay. Pretty much no one else.

[Rikae]

I thought I'd better go back and see how all the Boro's-Zeus-hints business got stearted, since it all seemed kind of weird, so:


Boro posts, then:




First, I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Second, Nerwen is right. They are actually all the same. The Lovers and Wolves are essentially on the same team right now. Zeus is really like a 5th wolf at the moment, except he doesn't know who 3 of them are, and has no real say in the Night kill, and counts in the innocent numbers (so maybe more like a cobblerish thing, as long as Hera is still kicking). The other 2 Lovers are potential allies for the wolves if they are united with their wolfy loves.


So, Wilwa just seems confused by Boro's remark, and gives him an explanation of the roles. Then:



I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.


So, Steve seems to interpret Boro's remark as Boro later explained it, and then go on to agree with Wilwa on why it's confusing due to the roles.




Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Anyway. I want more action. I have to go to work later, and I don't want all the good stuff to happen without me.


So now Wilwa seems to be pushing for an explanation a bit, at least for “more action.” Well, stirring the pot is a noble enough enterprise...




Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be? :D I realize this is a rather free and open game and you are free to place your loyalties anywhere you please, but really...


So, Phantom seems to read Boro as a cursed or lover hinting to the wolves... at least, that's how I read it.




To others: I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something. :p


The first is what I really thought; the second, as the smiley indicates, is lighthearted and directed at Phantom.




And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.


So Wilwa seems content...




Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.


But now Lalaith is reading into it.



Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?


And Nerwen - I can't tell if she's trying to turn up suspicion on Boro a notch, or just clarifying. Considering the possible hinting she may have done, it's interesting.



And yeah. At this point it all dissolves in a clarification of the roles I'd rather not go through again. It seems, though, that Phantom started things, and Lalaith wound them up again when they were running down. Lalaith seems to be coming into it at a late point wanting clarification, but Phantom seems to have given it some thought before posting what he did, so I'd be interested in hearing what his intentions were.


Also, Loslote, Inzil and Nerwen, I already pointed all that (regarding Steve's loyalties) out. He could be hinting to the wolves because he wants to be turned. He could be hinting to the village because he *doesn't* want to be turned, or wants to be lynched if turned. Either way, he's unlikely to be turned now, and if there is a no-kill and we don't have reason to think it's a ranger save, we can lynch him. He can't actually play as a cobbler, though - goes against his role.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote

[Nerwen]

There's too much talk about the lovers. They have to be loyal to their wolves (once they know them), then they're back on the village's side once the wolf is dead. While the innocent lovers can be useful, they can also be problematic, so lynching them isn't that bad. However, children, with all the lover talk, don't forget that lynching a wolf is still much, much better!
That's all there is to say, so let's move on.

There's also too much talk about the false seer.
The Lovers and the false Seer are surely the two biggest complications of this game, not to mention the fact that the former could potentially lead us to their wolf-counterparts. Yet, you don't want them talked about?

Then there's this sequence:

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

Mac - Makes sense, but also makes me raise my eyebrows a bit. Especially the following:So he's implying that Nerwen is Hades (ergo a wolf), but doesn't make a move to actually start suspecting her? If you think you've caught a wolf, why just mention it offhand instead of making a case and trying to get your supposed wolf lynched? Fishy, I'd say.

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water.

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

(...)

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

(...)

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

So there's two little oddities here:

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

[Rikae]

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. .

Are you sure? Where did you get this?

[Nogrod]

Nerwen's Hades declaration really stands out there and makes her my number one wolf-suspect. On top of that there were only Boro's Zeus-comments (which make no sense for a wolf or a lover to make) and Eonwë's Dionysos-reference (which was way later than the initial banter). And this is a game where several people would need to hint at their mates or possible allies! So it would be incredible if no-one tried to make a contact!

Of others I'm more confused about.

Lottie I remember suspecting for wrong reasons before but there is something in her posts that I can't quite put my finger on which makes me suspect her (fex. how she commented on the Eonwë-issue, but there was more as well, earlier).

Moreover, Rikae is spot on to the game and I really enjoyed her little argument with tp, but there's something in her posting as well that makes me a bit nervous (like always), namely the way she brought the Boro-issue back or how she turned around on it - or how she reacted to the Eonwë discussion. It's just a bad hunch maybe.

Also what Mac said about Greenie (and she said about him) - heh, at least I don't think they are Zeus and Hera... even if the arguing might be as like them in the stories... :) (not probably voting either of them, though)

Then there are the cohorts of those who have said little of any real value (eg. leading up to new ways of looking things or discussing things - or even contributing their own in some discussions). It's always so hard with them. Nothing to say when there is nothing said. But if you just want to "check" someone you can have no read on, you should do it earlier than later as the going gets tougher by Day and many feel - justifiably - that we can not afford blind checkings later on.

I'll take a fast tour around to check those less contributing ones before making any vote. Meanwhile it would be nice to hear from you others. It's such quiet.

Heh, talk of the devil... x'd with four last posts...

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! :cool: And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too. :smokin:

Mine's color coded! :D

Shasta's response to "mrow? ww?" was "Crap, has it started?" He should be on at some point.

And now I shall be going back and actually reading what I missed while I was playing with markers.

[Inziladun]

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?

x/d with KeeperMira

[Macalaure]

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.
1. That is true, obviously, but it's coincidence. I would have gotten back to that in any case.

2. Alright, back to Boro. If you're a lover in this game and you need someone to find you, you might consider hinting. Of course, everybody expects hints, so you have to be careful. I think picking one from the evil/associated-with-evil team and beefing it up (since when is Zeus almighty anyway ;) ) should give you the attention you want. Using Zeus' position in the pantheon, Boro made it casual and bantery enough to get away with it.

Same with your Hades-comment, just more careful/nervous.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?

x/d with KeeperMira

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

[Inziladun]

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

Exactly.

EDIT- saw the response above

[Loslote]

(since when is Zeus almighty anyway ;) )

Zeus is almighty, or at least he can be seen as such. King of the gods and all that. Boro was probably IC bantering. As a hint, it really wasn't very functional. As banter, it makes sense.

[autume98]

I might be missing something here, but don't Zeus and Hera know who each other are? If that's the case then there's no reason for Borolover to be hinting to his counterpart.

Exactly.

EDIT- saw the response above

I was going to post the same thing. I'm so glad I made the list cause it made all this Zeus talk even more interesting. Is it just something to stir up the pot and add confusion?

Edit: xed with Lottie

[Macalaure]

*gives up*

[Nogrod]

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?I had that spotted as well Rikae, so it's possible it was not for nothing... At the time when people were thinking whether the innocent-lovers should take the side of the village Nerwen went on with this. I had just forgotten this.

So I would say you two are not on the same side, at least you do not know it even if you were - well how to define sides in the first place in this kind of game anyway? What I was trying to say? That you two are not both (edit: added "both") wolves... that's more or less what I was trying to say. :)

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers.
Are you sure? Where did you get this?
From the rules, as I quoted them: Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.Or can you interpret this any other way?

Heh, interesting to see how different interpretations two people can make on the same subject (seeing what you found on Boro with tp and Lalaith - the comments of which I thought were more or less out of the discussion)... :rolleyes:

I still don't get this, Mac. Why would Borolover think talking about Zeus would indicate to his beloved he could be their counterpart?
Exactly, I mean if he was just another lover of another wolf (or the other way around?). I hate suspecting you (really) and even if you say Rikae explained why you did that I must say I didn't get it, exactly for this reason. That just makes no sense - heh, as you said in your initial post it didn't... But why all the explanations then, afterwards?

[Nerwen]

1. That is true, obviously, but it's coincidence. I would have gotten back to that in any case.
Hmmn. Bit of a case of "sez you", isn't it?

2. Alright, back to Boro. If you're a lover in this game and you need someone to find you, you might consider hinting. Of course, everybody expects hints, so you have to be careful. I think picking one from the evil/associated-with-evil team and beefing it up (since when is Zeus almighty anyway ;) ) should give you the attention you want. Using Zeus' position in the pantheon, Boro made it casual and bantery enough to get away with it.
So you're saying that Boro is either Aphrodite, Ares or Hades and was hinting that he was a different lover entirely in the hope that his counterpart would somehow catch on? A bit labyrinthine, no? (Well, I suppose that's appropriate..)

EDIT:X'd with a host, making this rather redundant.

[Inziladun]

I actually need to be going to bed soonish. 5 AM comes early.

I'm not making a list, there are too many bloody people. :p

Who stands out at the moment:

Boro- Confusing. Something doesn't sit right about him, but I'm hesitant to vote for him at this point.

Mac- As usual, I want to lynch him just for being Mac. Not toDay, though.

Eönwë- The bit about Dionysus has me pretty well convinced he's the Cursed, but as I see it, he's no threat until he's turned, and we should know when that happens, or at least know it's possibly happened.

BG- Popping in and out, no substance whatsoever. Very tempting to vote her.

x/d with Nog and Nerwen

[Macalaure]

So you're saying that Boro is either Aphrodite, Ares or Hades and was hinting that he was a different lover entirely in the hope that his counterpart would somehow catch on? A bit labyrinthine, no? (Well, I suppose that's appropriate..)
Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

[Inziladun]

It really does seem a reach on Mac's reasoning on why Boro said that about Zeus. I'm hesitant to vote him on Day 1 though. I always want to, and I'm hardly ever right about him, it seems.

x/d with Mac

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the rules
Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.
From the rules, as I quoted them: Or can you interpret this any other way?
Well, I can: "I will not reveal (the identity of) the Cursed". Which is not the same as "I will not reveal if the Cursed has been turned".

But perhaps Thanatos will be kind enough to clarify this point?

EDIT:X'd with Mac and Zil.

[Rikae]

Or can you interpret this any other way?

Definitely. I would interpret that as meaning that the dead (or dreamed) cursed will be listed as either an ordo or a wolf, depending on whether xe's been turned. Doesn't say whether the event of the cursed being turned (which wouldn't actually reveal the cursed's identity) would show up in a narration. Pretty often things like hunter kills and ranger saves show up in the narration, so it's entirely possible a cursed being turned would as well. Last I checked, the question had been posted on the admin thread, though, so we'll see.

EDIT: X'd with Nerwen.

[Loslote]

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

It sort of makes sense when you explain it that way, but it's something that you make fit a reason, not something that Boro would come up with as a way of hinting. There are tons of other ways of hinting that make a lot more sense and are a lot more likely for him to actually think of. The Zeus thing is just so random, and so unlikely that his prospective lover'd pick up on it, that I don't think he would have thought of using it as a hint. Especially not his only hint.

[wilwarin538]

So, the False Seer discussion totally confuses me, so I'm not going to touch that.

The Lover thing seems to have taken up alot of the Day, which I guess makes sense since it's such an important part of the game. It just seems to have taken on a bit *too* much of the day, but oh well.

Boro makes more sense now, since I think he was using 'alied with Zeus' to be in reference of the 'good side'. So I'm not going to push it more. Same for Nerwen, with the Hades thing, as far as I can tell it was banter.

Now Eonwe. Well that's something else. For him to be so blatant if he's the Cursed he must kow that if he gets turned we're just going to lynch him. So maybe this is his way of staying allied to the village? Giving himself up so he doesn't have to be evil? Or he just partied to much, and it was also banter.

That one just seems different to me than the other two. But if he's the Cursed we shouldn't be killing him. Well, there is another option for what he could be doing (to help the village). But if I'm right than me saying it could kind of ruin it, so I'll stay quite for now.

As for who to vote for. No idea right now. Maybe Mac, since the Boro-Zeus thing makes no sense as a Lover hint. But that's kind of slim. Maybe BG, because I don't like it when people complain about it being slow and then don't say anything when there's talking. I'm gonna read some more, but I'll be around for the next hour or so, so I'll wait as long as possible.

x'posted with a few

[Rikae]

I can see where Mac is coming form. After all, Zeus is a wolf's lover, so "allied to Zeus" could = wolf's lover. However, I still don't think that's what Boro meant - the way he phrased it just doesn't fit. He connected it to Phantom, which Mac will probably say was intended to disguise it, but which would also have the effect of garbling his hint.

[Blind Guardian]

Ay I am back. And I have caught up reading. I hate day 1s.

Nerwen- talked about Hades. (right?) very suspiciuos.

Eönwë- Dionyses. That was weird. I don't really like it.


Phantom- kinda annoying. But not going to vote.

These are the only people that I've noticed.

Xed with 172

[autume98]

Looks like so far I don't have much as far as suspicions. The people that have hit my radar so far toDay are:

Boro - There was all the Zeus talk around him. However he generally confuses me so it probably means nothing.

Lottie - That might just because I'm on her radar so it probably is just a knee-jerk reaction to that. However she's also is on Nog's radar and I tend to trust Nog.

Mac - I'm not sure about him. I really can't put my finger on it, but it also might be that once again I'm on his radar so it probably means nothing.

Eonwe - I'd like to know more about this statement:

I think Dionysus may have poisoned me (I feel quite sick), so I'm probably only going to be back near the end of the Day.

Everyone else seems to be ok or hasn't said a lot so really don't have much to go on.

On another note I talked to Sally and she said she's having internet that seems to be working sporadically.

Edit: xed up to post 172

[wilwarin538]

Oh. about when the cursed dies.

So what doesn't make sense to me. I would assume that when someone dies Glirdy will say something like "Downer X - Thanatos" in the deadlist. Since some of the roles are harder to categorise without saying the name of the god, and since even just saying Wolf would leave question what with the Lover situation. So when the cursed dies, if he suddenly says "wolf" or "ordo", when he's just been saying god names before, won't that seem a bit odd? Therefore wouldn't he have to reveal them as the cursed? He just wouldn't need to say wheter it is wolf-Dyonisis or ordo-Dyonisis, therefore keeping the mystery. We'd know the cursed is dead, just not whether they had been turned yet.

Atleast that's how I would do it. I just don't see how else he can keep the Cursed's identity hidden.

x'ed with BG and Tum

[Nogrod]

Shasta - not seen yet, so not voting as he might appear.

Those who have been around but contributed little or nothing...
Keeper aka Mira
BeiGei
Nienna
Sally
Tum

Those who have contributed more or less and whom I'd like to see contribute more (as they make sense or feel innocentish)
Wilwa
phantom
Boro
Zil
Folwren
Lalaith

Those who have contributed and I wouldn't like to vote toDay but who bear watching for one reason or another.
Lottie
Greenie
Kath

How fitting, the one's I'm torn about but suspect enough to give them their own category...
Rikae
Mac
(that is soo bad! Really!)

My suspects.
Eonwe - the cursed
Nerwen - suspicious of wolvery

So at this point it would make sense to vote for Nerwen (or Eonwë, actually, but if you all agree there is another way of interpreting the rules then it's different; to me they look pretty clear but that may be a language issue - and anyway in this situation we might afford to wait, although after the first non-death Night it will be different), or then vote for one of the "submarines"... If the subs stay as subs when Days go on we really should try to get rid of them but if they stand up for their challenge then we should just try for the best odds. And really at this point there's still time for the subs to make it better toDay so I'm a bit hesitating voting any of them right now without knowing who will actually provide us with some thoughts and not stay the enigmas...

Any thoughts?


Heh, x'd with two I named "subs" - that's the way it goes... and a few others...

[Nerwen]

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.
Sorry, Hephaistos (got confused because in fact Ares was Aphrodite's lover).

Anyway, I do understand what you mean, now– but I'd say it is a "bad hint".

Now Eonwe. Well that's something else. For him to be so blatant if he's the Cursed he must kow that if he gets turned we're just going to lynch him. So maybe this is his way of staying allied to the village? Giving himself up so he doesn't have to be evil?
You mean, trying to get lynched on purpose? But the likelihood of any one person getting the chop on Day One is small, compared to the risk of being turned for dropping a hint like that. (Not that I'm sure it was a hint– it seems a very foolhardy one for the Cursed to use.)

Ay I am back. And I have caught up reading. I hate day 1s.

Nerwen- talked about Hades. (right?) very suspiciuos.

Eönwë- Dionyses. That was weird. I don't really like it.


Phantom- kinda annoying. But not going to vote.

These are the only people that I've noticed.

*sigh* BeiGe, not to put too fine a point on it, but you're obviously once again skimming and copying what other people have said.

EDIT:X'd since Blind Guardian.

[Inziladun]

DL comes a few hours after bedtime, hence, I have to vote now.

The only two I feel comfortable voting for are Mac and Blind Guardian.
BG seems to have made it a point to poke her head in occasionally and say nothing.
Mac is suspicious enough to me pretty much any time, and it still looks like an awfully thin explanation of Boro's words that he's giving. And he sure is persistant about it, too.

I don't particularly like having to vote for either of them on Day 1; BG because she always seems to invite this sort of thing, and Mac because he and I always seem to fall into this pattern.

Of the two, I guess it's

++Blind Guardian

Yes, voting with Kath. Oh well.

x/d with all since 177. BG's last doesn't make her look any better: appears to only repeat what others have said.

[Rikae]

Nog, I think the only time you haven't suspected me (and Mac) on day one was when you were a cobbler. :rolleyes:

[wilwarin538]

I kind of want to vote for BG, somewhat out of annoyance, I'll admit. And I'm hitting my usual Day 1 dilemma of thinking everyone looks perfectly peachy :rolleyes:. I won't vote Eonwe, cause I *think* he might be doing something awesomely helpful. I won't vote Nerwen or Boro cause that seems like banter to me, now that I understand both references. And I don't think I'll vote Mac, because at most he makes me uneasy.

But I'm still gonna wait. I hate to vote out of frustration for someone....but I still might...

x'ed with Inzil (who seems to be thinking the same as me) and Rikae

[Nogrod]

Just looking at the posts I crossed with...

Rikae looks good, like Lottie and Wilwa a little less, but not alarmingly less good (it may be I just disagree with her points). The Blind Guardian and Tum on the other hand just make the sound of the schreech of a chalk on the chalk-board! So is it just them not getting the hang of it or something else?

[autume98]

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

So this post got me thinking. Could this just be a hint that he's a lover? Maybe, maybe not. Which got me thinking more how all this talk about lovers would be a perfect opportunity for someone to slip in a hint to their lover.


Mac is suspicious enough to me pretty much any time, and it still looks like an awfully thin explanation of Boro's words that he's giving. And he sure is persistant about it, too.



So now I'm not the only one who has suspicions of Mac. I really am beginning to wonder if some hints are going on. Granted it would seem to be pretty obvious that he's giving a hint to a fellow lover if that's what he were doing. Anyone have any thoughts?

Edit: x-ed with Rikae, wilwa, and Nog

[Nogrod]

Nog, I think the only time you haven't suspected me (and Mac) on day one was when you were a cobbler. :rolleyes:That's actually quite a sad tally... even if I think there must have been a game or two, someday, somewhere... :rolleyes:

But I'm just voicing my mind at the time as I can't be sure I'm around the next Day. I have no wish to see either of you dead on D1; you produce such a lot into this game that we need you, whatever your role is - unless there is a clear reason to drive for lynching you (which there is not at the moment).

[Nienna]

Zil I don't particularly like your vote for BG as your reasons could be applied to most anyone (inculding Tum who I've noticed has just done something very similar)

I, however, am going to vote for Steve as the possible Cursed. I know he is allied with us for the time being but I'd rather vote and kill him now than risk him being turned... if only for a Day it could be the difference between a Village Win and a Wolf Win. I also don't have any wolf suspects or even suspicions so I'd rather put my vote toward the Cursed pull a vote out of the air and have it turn out to be a gifted.

++ Steve

And now, good night.

Edit: x-ed with bunches.

[Blind Guardian]

DL comes a few hours after bedtime, hence, I have to vote now.

The only two I feel comfortable voting for are Mac and Blind Guardian.
BG seems to have made it a point to poke her head in occasionally and say nothing.
Mac is suspicious enough to me pretty much any time, and it still looks like an awfully thin explanation of Boro's words that he's giving. And he sure is persistant about it, too.

I don't particularly like having to vote for either of them on Day 1; BG because she always seems to invite this sort of thing, and Mac because he and I always seem to fall into this pattern.

Of the two, I guess it's

++Blind Guardian

Yes, voting with Kath. Oh well.

x/d with all since 177. BG's last doesn't make her look any better: appears to only repeat what others have said.

That's it? What the heck are you thinking!? I demand a better exsplantion!

[Rikae]

Oh. about when the cursed dies.

So what doesn't make sense to me. I would assume that when someone dies Glirdy will say something like "Downer X - Thanatos" in the deadlist. Since some of the roles are harder to categorise without saying the name of the god, and since even just saying Wolf would leave question what with the Lover situation. So when the cursed dies, if he suddenly says "wolf" or "ordo", when he's just been saying god names before, won't that seem a bit odd? Therefore wouldn't he have to reveal them as the cursed? He just wouldn't need to say wheter it is wolf-Dyonisis or ordo-Dyonisis, therefore keeping the mystery. We'd know the cursed is dead, just not whether they had been turned yet.

Atleast that's how I would do it. I just don't see how else he can keep the Cursed's identity hidden.

x'ed with BG and Tum

This is a good point - it makes me wonder if he didn't think it through? It still doesn't make sense that "won't reveal the cursed" should mean "will reveal who the cursed is, but not when/whether xe is turned."

[Rikae]

Tum, are you saying that Mac's suspicion of Boro being a lover is a hint that Mac is a lover?

Although there's something to the idea that people tend to talk about their own roles more than might be wise, I think that's a little bit of a reach, especially considering that you dismiss the idea that Boro's hinting - which, though I don't really buy it, is more plausible than that Mac is.

[satansaloser2005]

Which means I have to put up my vote without the explanation. (I have most of my thoughts typed already, but the nets aren't holding together very well so I don't want to risk it.) I'll be gone toMorrow almost all Day, so I don't want to risk not getting my vote in toDay and then getting modfired 'cause I'm out of town.

++BG

I'll explain either later tonight or (if I'm alive) in the Morning. Basically I noticed some interesting stuff that she's said which makes me think she's either a wolf or trying to save a wolf. Besides, I'm getting more or less good feelings from everyone else right now. (I'm pickin' up good vibrations?)

EDIT: Noticed as I was about to hit "submit reply" that Nienna had posted (her vote post, to be exact, so x'd since then). I'm a bit in love with my bed now, so I think I'll crash. Sorry for being so old and useless. ;)

[wilwarin538]

Ok, so I thought I could last another hour, but unlike my bestie I don't have the ability to stay up til 2am. Especially when I've just worked and have to be up early in the morning. I'm just too tired.

I just don't really know who to vote for yet. But I need to, really soon, and I want a stronger reason than 'she's too quiet'. But fatigue might get the best of me here.

I'll wait a bit more. Maybe someone will do something evil. :rolleyes:

x'ed with Rikae and the Cupcake (who has been really quiet too)

[Nogrod]

Too late for me now... even if in more or less American time-zone - I just need to get it back to the European one (saying that in 6am!:D).

++ Nerwen

Unlike Wilwa thinks, I do think her early reference to Hades was a deliberate one, willing to see it messed up by us others with all the normal banter (but being clear enough for Persephone), little did she know then we would make an issue of the hinting as she posted that so early.

And if she is a wolf, then I think we should really look at Wilwa - how agreeable and intelligent she is - and just because of that.

Also, she made those comments about Zeus' alliances trying to get forward a perception of Zeus not willing to be on the good-side when things were in doubt in the general discussion - so encouraging the other interpretation.

Also her reactions when she came back - she made a short comment kind of downplaying the "hint" and never came back to that but instead started more or less a crusade on Mac - which was probably a good idea as there could have been (there could be) some support for it. But I do think an innocent would have behaved differently - not just picking up one other to go for but tried to defend herself more, or given a few other possibilities instead of her.

Also, if she is a wolf I doubt Rikae or/and Mac is one. And that would give us one or two people we could more or less trust, at least in the first Days.


As long as the interpretation of Dionysos' role is doubtful I think we should keep him around. But let's not forget him either.

Also I do hope some people would start reading the thread and using their grey cells actively (in a form of posting the results of them working in here so that we could make our minds on them). I do hate trying it for random when there is nothing to say.

X'd with a host, again...

[Rikae]

Hm, so apparently the narration will indicate when the cursed is turned - the ModGod has spoken. In that case, there really is no reason to go lynching Steve now.
I don't really want to vote for BG, since as far as I'm concerned she's done just as little to show she's a wolf as to show she isn't - but I still might vote for her for plain old lack of participation and sleeping under the reindeer. My other suspects are Nerwen, but I still think it's quite likely what she said was IC banter and I wouldn't like to lynch her for that; Phantom, but he hasn't explained himself and it would be a throwaway vote anyway, and Wilwa, simply because of the way she seemed to be trying to stir up suspicions around Boro's remarks while keeping her hands clean, so to speak, but again, that would be a throwaway.

[autume98]

Tum, are you saying that Mac's suspicion of Boro being a lover is a hint that Mac is a lover?

Although there's something to the idea that people tend to talk about their own roles more than might be wise, I think that's a little bit of a reach, especially considering that you dismiss the idea that Boro's hinting - which, though I don't really buy it, is more plausible than that Mac is.

I was throwing that out as a possibility. I thought it might be a little too obvious on Mac's part which is why I asked for other's opinions. ;)

I didn't realize I had dismissed the idea the that Boro was hinting. I didn't really comment on it if that's what you mean. :confused: Since it's been brought up though I could see that yes it could be a hint coming from Boro. Yet I'm not convinced at all. I am pretty much on the fence with this one.

I have also been going through the posts to see if there are any hints that the lovers have thrown out. So far I haven't come across anything that stands out.

Edit: x-ed with wilwa, Nog, and Rikae

[Nogrod]

If the Cursed is turned, will that be indicated somehow?
I will inform you in the narration somehow.Okay. Needs to remember then...


X'd with Rikae & tum

[wilwarin538]

Uh. *head desk* I'm falling asleep here and no one else looks bad to me. So I have to go with her, even though my reasons are rather skimpy:

++ Blind Guardian

*goes bed time*

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

As for who to vote for. No idea right now. Maybe Mac, since the Boro-Zeus thing makes no sense as a Lover hint. But that's kind of slim.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one, dear. What Mac said about Boro leaving a Lover hint does make sense (even though it took me fooorever to get). I'm still pretty convinced it was innocent banter, but it does make sense.

I'm also not stoked on this suspicion of Steve, for the same reasons as I wasn't stoked on suspecting Boro and Nerwen for what could very well be innocent Day 1 banter.

People I won't be voting for toDay:
Boro
Nerwen
Steve
(All for reasons previously stated.)
Shasta - I don't vote for people who don't appear. At least not Day 1.

Who I probably will be voting for toDay unless something better comes up within the next hour or so:
Blind Guardian - don't be posting that you want people to provide you with substance and then don't do anything to spark discussion.

EDIT: xed since the wilwa post I quoted. And bollox, that now looks suspiciously like bandwagoning.

[Nerwen]

Also, she made those comments about Zeus' alliances trying to get forward a perception of Zeus not willing to be on the good-side when things were in doubt in the general discussion - so encouraging the other interpretation.
No, I mentioned it because I thought it was important. You would rather we simply looked the other way and ignored the possibility of the Lovers working against the village?

Also her reactions when she came back - she made a short comment kind of downplaying the "hint" and never came back to that but instead started more or less a crusade on Mac - which was probably a good idea as there could have been (there could be) some support for it. But I do think an innocent would have behaved differently - not just picking up one other to go for but tried to defend herself more, or given a few other possibilities instead of her.
If I had defended myself more you'd now be calling me "defensive" right now, Nogrod. Besides, what was there to say? I tried to adapt an idiom to the setting, just as we'll say "What the Utumno?" in an M-e based game. Either you accept that or you don't. And I didn't go on a "crusade" against Mac, I pointed out some things he'd done that I thought needed explaining. Again, would you prefer I hadn't?

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod's vote-post.

[Blind Guardian]

I'M HERE! I DONT WHAT TO SAY, NOR DO I HAVE ANY CLUE OF WHATS GOING ON! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO POST? A WHOLE BUNCH OF NONESENCE!? THAT'S WHAT GOT ME KILLED LAST TIME!! I can't win!

[Rikae]

I was throwing that out as a possibility. I thought it might be a little too obvious on Mac's part which is why I asked for other's opinions. ;)
Too obvious? No, I don't think so. Quite the opposite. Unless you mean something more specific than just the fact that Mac talked about Boro's potential hint (which Wilwa, Nerwen, Phantom, Nogrod, etc. etc. talked about before Mac, for that matter - are they all lovers, too?)

I didn't realize I had dismissed the idea the that Boro was hinting. I didn't really comment on it if that's what you mean. :confused: Since it's been brought up though I could see that yes it could be a hint coming from Boro. Yet I'm not convinced at all. I am pretty much on the fence with this one.
Well, saying that calling it a lover hint amounts to making a lover hint oneself is essentially dismissing it, unless you imagine that a lover-Mac would try to hint by outing what would essentially be an ally for possible lynching.

[Blind Guardian]

Kill me I just want to play a game and last more then one day

[Nogrod]

Just going to bed while left the PC open... and I realised I wanted to see the tally. So why not send it to you as well? I think it bears watching...

Foley -> Eonwë
Greenie -> Macalaure
Kath -> Blind Guardian
Lalaith -> Boro
Inzil -> Blind Guardian 2
Nienna -> Eonwë 2
Sally -> Blind Guardian 3
Nogrod -> Nerwen
Wilwa -> Blind Guardian 4

Those with votes have their highest vote bolded...

I really think Wilwa's last one looks suspicious - and Sally's looks like a throwaway...

[Nerwen]

I'M HERE! I DONT WHAT TO SAY, NOR DO I HAVE ANY CLUE OF WHATS GOING ON! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO POST? A WHOLE BUNCH OF NONESENCE!? THAT'S WHAT GOT ME KILLED LAST TIME!! I can't win!

Blind, it's actually just the same thing that got you lynched last game: you're obviously parroting other people, and forming no opinions of your own. Last game you copy-pasted someone else's suspicion-list; this time you didn't even try to hide the fact that you were just "suspecting" people because other people suspected them. I mean, you weren't even sure what I was supposed to have done, were you?

No, I'm not going to vote for you, unless I need to do so to save myself, or you do something really suspicious. At the moment you look to me more like an innocent who's made herself a target, again.

EDIT: X'd since BG at #204.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Before I forget:

++BG

[Blind Guardian]

But what else can I do? I'm just like that

[Blind Guardian]

This is a bandwagon again. Last time you lost your seer. THINK PEOPLE!

[autume98]

Too obvious? No, I don't think so. Quite the opposite. Unless you mean something more specific than just the fact that Mac talked about Boro's potential hint (which Wilwa, Nerwen, Phantom, Nogrod, etc. etc. talked about before Mac, for that matter - are they all lovers, too?)

At this time I don't think the others are lovers. Mac's last line just jumped out at me making me think that maybe he was trying to hint that he is a lover as seen below.

Hephaistos, not Ares. In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.


Well, saying that calling it a lover hint amounts to making a lover hint oneself is essentially dismissing it, unless you imagine that a lover-Mac would try to hint by outing what would essentially be an ally for possible lynching.

Edit: x-ed since #206
I guess I didn't see it as dismissing it. But I addressed it in an earlier post so I won't do so here.

At this time Mac is most suspicous in my book.

[Rikae]

I'M HERE! I DONT WHAT TO SAY, NOR DO I HAVE ANY CLUE OF WHATS GOING ON! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO POST? A WHOLE BUNCH OF NONESENCE!? THAT'S WHAT GOT ME KILLED LAST TIME!! I can't win!

I'm sorry; it must be very frustrating. :( If you don't understand well enough to post anything but nonsense, though, and you really can't figure it out, where's the fun in that?
I don't like to see someone lynched for simply not catching on, but I can also understand why it happens. If you can't keep up you just end up as a question mark in everyone's mind, with nothing to go on either for or against you - and that's not how the game works.

But what else can I do? I'm just like that

Then, and don't take this the wrong way, why do you want to play WW at all? If you don't want to analyze and debate and so on, why bother? That's what it's all about.

I'm not going to vote BG because, well, it seems a little harsh at this point. The point about not participating has been made, and I don't see her as especially wolfish. I also don't see much purpose in voting for Steve: he hasn't had a chance to explain his "hint", and, if it was, he's on our side for now and we'll know when he isn't. Instead, I'm just going to do something that really should be done more often on day Ones everywhere:

++the phantom

For being the phantom.

Yeah. That felt good.

:smokin:

[Nogrod]

And a fast answer to Nerwen...

I did read your post about Zeus differently, like trying to persuade whoever played Zeus to think he would not win without Hera (and thus without the wolves).

And I would not have called you defensive (or over-defensive) if you'd tried to talk yourself out from that Hades stuff - which if you're innocent would be something you'd probably really have tried to speak yourself out from (and really the lovers need so badly to connect to each other in this game and you're one of the only ones who made any that kind of reference!).

But your reaction was an attack on one person. So trying to persuade people to lynch one person other than you instead of an innocent's reaction of trying to prove your innocense or giving us the whole list of your suspicions lynching one of which would be better. The wolves like to single out one they'd rather get rid off - the one they calculate is the possible one. It would require so much work to come up with many suspicions there would be some grounds for suspecting for someone who knows who the innocents are?

So really Nerwen, I do suspect you.

[Macalaure]

6 pages on Day1... and there's still two hours to go... I needs me a list.

Probably innocent
Rikae (argumentative plus defending me when I'm misunderstood, that's innocent-Rikae)

Fine with me
Kath (hasn't said much, but what she said I liked - defending me is the way to my heart ;) )
Folwren (couldn't say anything bad about her)
Lalaith (simply no alarms)

Fine with me at the moment, but still wary
Wilwa (talks about roles too much, but since she helped planning, that's ok for now. Don't like her vote, though... really bad)
Nogrod (went on about Eonwe too much and followed Greenie with her suspicions of me, but otherwise fine, especially his vote)
Phantom (nothing bad to report yet, but you never know with him)

No clear opinion, but no alarms
BG (really don't get those votes, she's being herself perfectly)
Eonwe (I don't buy the cursed theory. If he is the cursed, he's aligned with good at this point and should behave that way. I don't think he would bend the rules like that)
Shasta
Sally

Somewhat suspicious
Lottie (vague bad feeling again)
Nienna (had a bad feeling about all her posts so far. Also: BG-voter)
Greenie (the nagging Persephone-suspicion persists since it fits so well)
Keepandir (just the vote. Annoyance might be cover for convenience)

High on my list, but not an aim toDay
Boro (I still think he made a hint, but I'll let it rest for now - don't come complaining to me when you feel his or his lover's fangs in your neck)

Baddie, baddie, bad, bad
Inzil (vague bad feeling from the beginning on; don't like the way he went after me; BG-voter)
Nerwen (I would have given her the benefit of the doubt with the hint-thing, but her behaviour around it now is suspicious. She dismissed it very casually and went after me instead, and now that Nogrod addressed it, she seemed very tense)
Autume (passive, going along with the crowd / after easy victims -type feeling, which, to her defense, is not out of character for her)

[Nerwen]

But what else can I do? I'm just like that

You'll just have to learn better, or this will keep happening.

Meanwhile, I'd like to note that four of the five people who have voted BG played in the last game, when she got lynched in much the same way, and turned out to be the Seer.

Sure, she also played much like this as a wolf in her first game, but still... at the moment, it just seems like this is how she plays, whatever her role.

EDIT:X'd since BG at #210.

[Macalaure]

Raise your hand if you'd like to lynch somebody suspicious instead of BG.

Yes, she might not be very helpful, but that's not a good reason to lynch and you know that. :rolleyes:

[Nogrod]

Foley -> Eonwë
Greenie -> Macalaure
Kath -> Blind Guardian
Lalaith -> Boro
Inzil -> Blind Guardian 2
Nienna -> Eonwë 2
Sally -> Blind Guardian 3
Nogrod -> Nerwen
Wilwa -> Blind Guardian 4
Mira of Dol Guldur -> Blind Guardian 5
Rikae -> the phantom

Mira, you're really making yourself to flash out here as well!

[Macalaure]

Foley -> Eonwe
Greenie -> Mac
Kath -> BG
Lalaith -> Boro
Inzil -> BG (2)
Nienna -> Eonwe (2)
Sally -> BG (3)
Nogrod -> Nerwen
Wilwa -> BG (4)
Keeper -> BG (5)
Rikae -> phantom

Bad votes: Inzil, Nienna, Wilwa, Keeper for joining/fueling pointless bandwaggons, Rikae for throwing away her vote.

[Blind Guardian]

I'm sorry; it must be very frustrating. :( If you don't understand well enough to post anything but nonsense, though, and you really can't figure it out, where's the fun in that?
I don't like to see someone lynched for simply not catching on, but I can also understand why it happens. If you can't keep up you just end up as a question mark in everyone's mind, with nothing to go on either for or against you - and that's not how the game works.

I try. I didn't just copy and paste like what someone said, it just came out the same. I want to play, I want to get past day one!

[the phantom]

I am back and working on catching up with all the action...

[Blind Guardian]

Raise your hand if you'd like to lynch somebody suspicious instead of BG.

Yes, she might not be very helpful, but that's not a good reason to lynch and you know that. :rolleyes:


Me! Me me me me!!!

[Rikae]

Hm, so Tum, do you mean the "it's frustrating to be alone with it" bit or the "I am a lover" bit? Or something else?


argumentative plus defending me when I'm misunderstood, that's innocent-Rikae

Silly. I always defend you - even when we're not on the same side. You know that. :Merisu:

[Nerwen]

And I would not have called you defensive (or over-defensive) if you'd tried to talk yourself out from that Hades stuff - which if you're innocent would be something you'd probably really have tried to speak yourself out from
Once again: there's nothing for me to say. Either you believe me that it was just banter, or you don't. Repeating it over and over won't convince you, will it?

But your reaction was an attack on one person. So trying to persuade people to lynch one person other than you instead of an innocent's reaction of trying to prove your innocense or giving us the whole list of your suspicions lynching one of which would be better.
Now you're just attributing motives to me. That wasn't a "reaction". I pointed out some things Mac did because I thought they were suspicious. Besides, when have you ever seen me make a suspicion-list?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[autume98]

Raise your hand if you'd like to lynch somebody suspicious instead of BG.

Yes, she might not be very helpful, but that's not a good reason to lynch and you know that. :rolleyes:

I am definitely with you on this one. I also know that we definitely see each other as enemies right now. As much as I have my suspicions about you I'm not sure I'm willing to vote for you just yet. Maybe it's because I feel the same way about the BG votes. It'd be an easy lynch and I don't agree with that.

Edit: x-ed with BG, Rikae, and Nerwen

[Rikae]

Mac, I didn't throw away my vote. A vote for Phantom is always a vote well spent.

[Macalaure]

Autume, who, if not BG or me, would you like to lynch then, and why?

[autume98]

Hm, so Tum, do you mean the "it's frustrating to be alone with it" bit or the "I am a lover" bit? Or something else?


It was this line:
Since we only have three, that's not a bad hint.

Edit: Changed coding

[Rikae]

Ok, in that case... that makes no sense at all.

[autume98]

I know there are rules about editing posts. So quick question, anyone here know if I can fix the quote since it shows: [quote ] [ /quote] I can't believe I forgot to preview my post before I hit Submit Reply. :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance!

[Loslote]

Raise your hand if you'd like to lynch somebody suspicious instead of BG.

Yes, she might not be very helpful, but that's not a good reason to lynch and you know that. :rolleyes:

*raises hand*

Personally, I'd like to see Mac or Tum, but that doesn't look very likely. I do not like this BeiGei bandwagon. It's an easy, almost mindless vote.

EDIT: xed with Tum - if you mark that you changed coding, no one will be mad. Happens to all of us. :)

[Rikae]

I think that's probably fine, just note it in the "reason for editing" box.

EDIT: X'd with Lottie.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Holy cow. I apologize for my absence so far - I had no idea this was starting today. I'll do my best to read the last six pages. Deadline's in two hours, right?

[Loslote]

Hey, Shasta's here! Yep. Better hurry up and vote for Mac or Tum. ;)

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Bad votes: Inzil, Nienna, Wilwa, Keeper for joining/fueling pointless bandwaggons, Rikae for throwing away her vote.

Just for the record, I had decided my vote before I saw the rest of the votes. I wasn't going to change what I had been thinking for hours because it might look like I joined a bandwagon. Fairly certain my edit said something to that effect when I mentioned i x'ed with a whole ton of people. Side effect of having an awful attention span and leaving half completed windows open for extended periods of time. Just sayin'.


Mac, I didn't throw away my vote. A vote for Phantom is always a vote well spent.

Heh, agreed.

[autume98]

Autume, who, if not BG or me, would you like to lynch then, and why?

As I was looking at my list I am wondering about wilwa and her post for BG.

I am also not sure about Boro. He sure did stir up the pot, but I'm not sure that he's a wolf.

Looking at my list of players no one is jumping out at me screaming wolf. I'm wondering if they are one of the quiet ones.

You mentioned Zil. Is there something that makes you suspect him or you just suspect him on principle?

Edit: x-ed with up to #231

[Macalaure]

Autume: this might irk you now - or a few others - but I'll vote Nerwen. I suspect her, and you don't mention her. Since I don't really trust you, that makes perfect sense to me. ;)

++Nerwen

[Nogrod]

I seem to be trapped in a vicious circle... going to have a cigarette, going to brush my teeth... while leaving the computer on and just looking after every thing done if there is anything that is interesting... and of course there is... Gah!

Once again: there's nothing for me to say. Either you believe me that it was just banter, or you don't. Repeating it over and over won't convince you, will it?No. You're right. But if you gave it even an effort, if you protested even a bit more I could see the innocent frustration in there. Now I only see the calculated avoidance of the thing once you have stated your position once - as to not look too over-defensive... I do not claim to know how you think but I've been wolf many times enough to notice certain kind of behaviours that suggest to me the way I myself act in certain situations...

Now you're just attributing motives to me. That wasn't a "reaction". I pointed out some things Mac did because I thought they were suspicious. Besides, when have you ever seen me make a suspicion-list?
I was not calling for a list. I was just thinking that if you were an innocent, you probably had some ideas as to who the wolves are or anyway who were suspicious to you - I know all are not cabable of that but I do know you are - but you just jumped on one, like a wolf would do seeing things were going badly. As that is the easiest way, trying to find another scapegoat rather than giving multiple choices which are more insecure others might go for... or are right in the beginning (which is the concern an innocent has).

Also you seem to be avoiding some of the questions I made... like the fact that some people (especially Hades!) really need to try to establish a connection and you were one of the only ones a trial for that could be read out from. Another one being Eonwë, our most likely cursed villager. And really I don't buy your explanation of trying to think for the good of the village while lovers would play over the good of the village when it was a question of Zeus' alliance after Hera's death. And don't say you didn't intend that as we were clearly talking about the innocent-lover's alignment after the death of his/her mate.

So you're my suspicion number one, still.


On another note. I will be looking very closely on the BG -voters tomorrow if alive and she turns out innocent. I think I have never played with her, but this looks like a "collective avoiding the responsibility" and / or "trying to get through where the fence is the lowest", really. It's clear she has a thing or two to learn, but to jump on her that way is just... bad, well looking guilty trying to find an easy vote.

Especially for Wilwa - who should know better and who tried to talk on behalf of Nerwenas well...


x'd with a few, again...

[Blind Guardian]

Inzil

because he started this bandwagon and I'm mad.

[the phantom]

(Oh my goodness, you guys posted a lot while I was gone. I'm still catching up, so pardon me if this post seems a bit behind and silly, as it's as far as I've advanced in the discussions.)

***************************

Regarding the Boro opening post incident-
but Phantom seems to have given it some thought before posting what he did, so I'd be interested in hearing what his intentions were.
I thought it was possible he was trying several things, and with my comment to him I hoped to engage him in dicussion and see if I could guess which based on his reaction. The thing that stood out to me wasn't the Zeus comment so much as his constant reference to the Seer. Given simple odds I knew it was unlikely, but- I had a brainwave that perhaps he was talking about the Seer so much the WWs would try to kill him (thinking he was a Seer "hiding in the open" as they say), when in fact he was the Cursed and wished to be turned!

And so I worded my comments to him rather vaguely, knowing that if he was in fact the Cursed he would know precisely how to interpret my comment and also he would assume that I was on his side given the fact that I had "spotted" what he was up to and hadn't sounded the alarm. And so if he were to hint back to me that I was on the right track, I would turn on him and blow the whistle.

I realize it sounds like a lot of effort for something that is such a slim possibility, but the idea of the cursed going over to the other side was just too large of a threat to sit by and not try something, just to be certain.

And indeed, I guess he didn't intend anything at all if we are to believe his quote from earlier today-
As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.
Moving on now, I'm not sure about Nog's idea about making something of the responses to Boro, as at that stage I personally believe everyone was just itching to have something real to discuss- mechanics and hammering out rules etc. Stretching their legs. Had a Day 2 comment been over-analyzed and jumped on I'd be more likely to agree.
Re: Mac's comment about Nerwen - I thought that perhaps he was trying to confuse Persephone into picking Nerwen, who I doubted (and figured Mac doubted, since he didn't try to get her lynched) was actually Hades. I didn't really think a wolf would have made the comment Nerwen did, as it seemed too risky.
This was exactly what I thought upon viewing Mac's comment and Nerwen's comment before it, which is why for the time being Mac and Nerwen are firmly in my innocent column.

(back to reading, on page 5 now)

[autume98]

6 pages on Day1... and there's still two hours to go... I needs me a list.
...
Somewhat suspicious
Nienna (had a bad feeling about all her posts so far. Also: BG-voter)
Greenie (the nagging Persephone-suspicion persists since it fits so well)
Keepandir (just the vote. Annoyance might be cover for convenience)

Baddie, baddie, bad, bad
Inzil (vague bad feeling from the beginning on; don't like the way he went after me; BG-voter)
Nerwen (I would have given her the benefit of the doubt with the hint-thing, but her behaviour around it now is suspicious. She dismissed it very casually and went after me instead, and now that Nogrod addressed it, she seemed very tense)

I want to touch on a few of the items you mentioned. For the most part I agree with your innocent list. I say most part instead of all because I'm not in your innocent list. ;)

I know I've played with Nienna but can't seem to remember how she plays. However as you pointed out she's a BG voter. I think some of the people who have voted for BG have been throwing their votes away.

Not sure what you meant by this: Greenie (the nagging Persephone-suspicion persists since it fits so well)

I think you make a good point about Keeper. Maybe something to look at.

As you pointed out Inzil is a BG voter.

And I wanted to touch on Nerwen. To me her comment seemed innocent, and I didn't see her defending herself as being tense.

Edit: x-ed with up to post #237

[Nerwen]

You know, Nogrod and Mac's suspicion of me, Mac's of Boro and tum's of Mac all come down to the following bit of illogic:

And this is a game where several people would need to hint at their mates or possible allies! So it would be incredible if no-one tried to make a contact!

And therefore, if you can't find proper hints, then any comment about the role "must" be a hint, even if it doesn't make sense as one.

EDIT:X'd since Mac's vote-post... and I see Nog's made this argument again.

[autume98]

Autume: this might irk you now - or a few others - but I'll vote Nerwen. I suspect her, and you don't mention her. Since I don't really trust you, that makes perfect sense to me. ;)

++Nerwen

Now that just put a BIG smile on my face! :D In a strange way that really does make sense.

I seem to be trapped in a vicious circle... going to have a cigarette, going to brush my teeth... while leaving the computer on and just looking after every thing done if there is anything that is interesting... and of course there is... Gah!


I hear you Nog! I keep thinking that I really do need to vote soon, but then this is just sooo interesting that I'm not ready to put my laptop away and call it a night. Not to mention I really need to look at who I want to vote for. Yet at this time I don't see any unity on the votes other than the ones for BG.

[Nerwen]

But if you gave it even an effort, if you protested even a bit more I could see the innocent frustration in there.
No, actually I don't believe you. I don't believe there's any "perfect" way I could have responded that would have convinced you of my innocence. Whatever I did, you'd be saying it was a sign of guilt and something else the perfect response of an innocent. Sorry, played with you too many times, Nogrod.

As that is the easiest way, trying to find another scapegoat rather than giving multiple choices which are more insecure others might go for... or are right in the beginning (which is the concern an innocent has).
Again, attributing motive to me: I wasn't "trying to find a scapegoat". I wanted explanations from Mac for his conduct.

Also you seem to be avoiding some of the questions I made... like the fact that some people (especially Hades!) really need to try to establish a connection and you were one of the only ones a trial for that could be read out from.
See my last post for why this is invalid.

Edit: X'd since my last post.

[autume98]

Thought I'd share the vote count:

Foley -> Eonwe
Greenie -> Mac
Kath -> BG
Lalaith -> Boro
Inzil -> BG (2)
Nienna -> Eonwe (2)
Sally -> BG (3)
Nogrod -> Nerwen
Wilwa -> BG (4)
Keeper -> BG (5)
Rikae -> phantom
Mac -> Nerwen (2)
BG -> Inzil

I did notice that Keeper didn't give a reason.

[the phantom]

All right- I've skimmed everything now at least. Two things-

1) Does anyone have an updated tally?

2) Does BG's vote count (it doesn't have ++)?

edit: x-posted, so never mind the tally

[Glirdan]

Again, I will count BeiGei's vote for now. However, from this Day on, everyone MUST vote as so -------> [ highlight]++insert name here[ /highlight]

I have spoken!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Okay, I think I'm caught up for the most part (although there was a lot of skimming involved).

Re: Nerwen and Nogrod - to be honest, I think they're the standard two innocent vs. innocent that generally appear during day one. The light of my life is smarter than to openly announce that she's Hades, I think. And Nogrod has a tendency to go after one person early on regardless of their alignment (I would know, :p).

Re: Boro - I don't see a reason for Zeus to be hinting to Hera, or to be hinting at all. I don't think his comment was a hint.

Re: Eonwe - I'm putting my vote on him. If he's the Cursed we're better off lynching him now then letting him be turned at night.

++Eonwe

[autume98]

All right- I've skimmed everything now at least. Two things-

1) Does anyone have an updated tally?

2) Does BG's vote count (it doesn't have ++)?

edit: x-posted, so never mind the tally

With that the vote for Inzil is up in the air. So my list may or may not include Inzil.

Edit: x-ed with Mod and Shasta

[Blind Guardian]

I'M still going to be killed right?