Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[A Little Green]

Nogrod - Seems his more aggressive self. He's at pains to emphasize his own innocence which strikes me as fishy, but other than that I don't find him particularly wolfy.

Aganzir - Her general tone is leaning innocent, but there have been a few odd comments that make me quite uneasy - the one where she talked about innocents uniting in Mandos as "little risk of a dangerous dead union", and her odd certainty than none of the runners-up for yesterDay's lynch were wolves. Wary of her.

Glirdan - Like I said before, I think he's a very possible Cobbler. Doubt he's a wolf.

Elra - Hard to say at this point. Might take a closer look if I had the time, which I unhappily don't.

Nerwen - Has slipped under my radar so far.

Loslote - Leaning innocent. Unlike some others, I don't find her tone particularly false.

Wilwa - I've seen too little of her to judge. There was something in her post that rubbed me the wrong way, I have no idea what that was though.

Legate - No idea yet, he's just being himself.

Lommy - Seems less suspicious toDay than she did yesterDay. Could still be a wolf, maybe even Cobbler, but I'm willing to give her a pass for toDay.

Nessa - Leaning a little bad. Her vote yesterDay was really odd, I could see a Nessawolf making that vote and counting on it being passed with "Hey, it was Day 1." Cobbler is another possibility - or she might be quite simply an ordo in lack of better ideas.

Blind Guardian - Where is she?

Sally - Where is she?

the phantom - Leaning innocent, though I'm starting to have doubts. (The doubts, though, being mostly of the "I'd hate it if he fooled me" kind.. :rolleyes: )

Boro - I'm sort of worried that I can't remember much of what he's said apart from the cute typos, and the odd pessimism-debate. Could go either way.

Mithalwen - She's baffling me big time.

Anguirel - Possibly leaning innocent (but as soon as I wrote that I began having second thoughts). I'll be keeping an eye on him.

Fea - I have no read on her which is strange.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom and two Lommies

[Aganzir]

Lommy is sitting on a chair in her pajamas and telling me how Anguirel reminds her of an old man who has ran away from his nursing home and walks around seemingly aimlessly talking about Homer.

I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.
Try to make you look suspicious? Dear Noggins I think you're perfectly capable of doing that yourself. :p

I do think it is a perfectly valid and normal way of playing werewolf that you speculate on the motives behind what someone says looking how a wolf-X would have thought and which would have been her/his motives - or how what X said could be said by a wolf-X.
Me too, and I do that all the time, but you sounded mean.

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?
Yes. As a matter of fact, I'm going there tomorrow. Just for your information.

I wanted to see reactions to Shasta's death before revealing (especially Nog's), and I rather didn't wait till tomorrow just on the offhand chance the wolves decided to target me. I'm not much wiser, except I am not feeling in any way better about Nog.

Where art thou gone? The day is bare,
the sunlight dark, and cold the air!
Shastanis, where went thy feet?
O wayward star! O maiden sweet!
O flower of Elfland all too fair
for mortal heart! The woods are bare!

Congrats, wolves. You killed Lúthien.

[Thinlómien]

Lommy is sitting on a chair in her pajamas and telling me how Anguirel reminds her of an old man who has ran away from his nursing home and walks around seemingly aimlessly talking about Homer.Oh noes, now I know why the "insult" a few posts above came so readily into my home. Mes apologies to Anguirel, I didn't mean to compare him with the pantom. :p (Oops! I seriously didn't make that typo on purpose but I just can't correct it anymore!!! :D)

And ouches, Agan. Not sure whose point this proves, though...

[the phantom]

Agan- Please say you're kidding...

Bleh.... :rolleyes:

In other words the Night-kill was almost as bad as it possibly could've been.

[Nogrod]

Well of course we have a phabbler.

I mean I was thinking about it yesterDay and then a bit during the Night - as this time no looking back to the thread by Night will be futile as you don't die as such.

Basically he was talking sense, making good points, being reasonable... well what else do you expect from tp? And I actually thought him a good and helpful ordinary innocent there and then.

But looking back at him later I think there was an unusual amount of small errors in his plans, all either benefiting the wolves or making it easier for them to play against us with their knowledge or then making it easier for us to back the wrong horses...

Let's take an example that has not been discussed thus far (Agan and myself -I'm not sure who, but someone else as well, Nerwen?) actually corrected a few of his suggestions already yesterDay).

He said we could automatically assume that the one the Mandos-folk would give an extra vote for is a goodie if we just agreed on it. I do myself believe there is a chance that the goodies should fare better there than here, but - like some others already have pointed out - it's not self-evident they will.

But there are other major problems as well.

If the voting there goes with the same DL as here as the rules suggest, there will be the same last minute madness there - especially if people here leave the voting to the last moment. So it is actually possible that even with the Mandos which would have a seer present who had made the others believe in him and seemingly there was a charge of goodies; well even then enough numbers of cobblers and/or wolves could make last minute impact on the extra-vote here.

Also, the Mandos goodies (if they were in charge) might have a good reason to give an extra vote to other people than "known ordinary innocents". Let's say we have a situation where a wolf and an innocent are leading the tally and a cobbler is voting the wolf and an the ordo is voting the other ordo. Surely if they knew the other was a wolf they would give the extra vote to the cobbler...

If there was a strict system adopted by us it would make it easier for the wolves to use it than to us. But also, even without a strict system established, if people were generally tuned towards that kind of interpretation it would steer their interpretations - and the wolves could play on that.


EDIT: X'd with a host.

[Thinlómien]

Agan- Please say you're kidding...Or a cobbler? :Merisu:

Not that I can see a reason for a cobbler to say that because it would hurt the wolves more than the village. An ordo could make that kind of false reveal but it would only hurt the village in the long run. So maybe we've got to believe her.

Somehow makes me less suspicious of Nog though. Looks more like he was framed now (although the wolves don't really know anymore than us others). Hmm, wait, not sure if my own logic makes sense.

However, I should vote and go soon. On the positive side, we at least have one known innocent for toDay, so a slightly higher chance to catch a wolf.


edit: xed with monsieur Nogrod

[A Little Green]

Lommy, well then I hope you don't think your sister is an obscure grey box. :smokin:


EDIT: x-ed since Agan. What?

[Anguirel]

Someone used the word "dangerous" in an odd way, about innocent and helpful dead, but I've lost track of who (I'd guess Aganzir) and actually I think such semantics can be overplayed


Lommy, A Little Green, Aganzir (scions of Finnwe) I was just wanting to flag up the fact that I spotted the phrase "dangerous dead union" a while go but decided not to run with it.

However, I've just seen Aganzir's revelation. Weird if true. Why would Shasta have been so unsubtle? No, wait, I can answer my own question. The excitement of being a Gifted gives one a great desire to boast, and makes one liable to deploy the overly confident double-bluff (cf WW II, my disastrous outing as Guardian; sorry if I'm boring you, whippersnappers).

I'm a blossoming youth at the peak of my powers, but I am doing a post-grad degree so I'm spiritually about 90; I won't contest this retirement-home stuff though it makes me feel a bit low (especially coming from Lommy who's be playing nearly as long as me really. Or is it my little hiatus that's winding you people up?)...

Final, frivolous consideration - interest in the Dead Thread is a character thing. Fea's got it too. We're the kind of people who would have been preeetty untrustworthy around the Ring

okay, serious stuff to consider. I'll try and start doing so

[Nogrod]

Sorry forgot the last point I meant to make.

Ironically, the better we fare here aka. the more wolves and cobblers die, the firmer the Mandos is in their hands. And vice versa.


Rikae, you are a diabolical genius! *bows*

[Anguirel]

It's like the British House of Lords, I keep thinking; a hang out zone for defeated politicians...

irrelevant appendix mainly to entertain Mith: the Coalition have a majority in the Commons, the Opposition in the Lords...which ones are the werewolves??

[Aganzir]

Agan- Please say you're kidding...

Bleh.... :rolleyes:

In other words the Night-kill was almost as bad as it possibly could've been.
I naturally expect Glorfindel to keep me alive till tomorrow, not that we're probably going to learn much. I don't know if Shasta is allowed to stay there long enough to learn whether Mänwe or today's lynch was a wolf but I hope he is. (So the wolves are in pains not to lynch one of them today, I'd assume.)
Also, I'm totally going to crack up if Mänwe was a gifted.

So maybe we've got to believe her.
Yeah that might be a good idea. Anybody should be able to see there's no sense in lying - you'll know for sure tomorrow anyway.

Somehow makes me less suspicious of Nog though. Looks more like he was framed now (although the wolves don't really know anymore than us others). Hmm, wait, not sure if my own logic makes sense.
No it doesn't. Why is Nog less suspicious because you know he's been arguing with an innocent than if he had been arguing with an unknown?

[A Little Green]

Not that I can see a reason for a cobbler to say that because it would hurt the wolves more than the village. An ordo could make that kind of false reveal but it would only hurt the village in the long run. So maybe we've got to believe her.

Somehow makes me less suspicious of Nog though. Looks more like he was framed now (although the wolves don't really know anymore than us others). Hmm, wait, not sure if my own logic makes sense.It would be a weird move from a cobbler I think. A diversion, granted, but a pretty short-lived one. I just don't see the gain. As for your Nogic, it doesn't make sense to me at least. Could you clarify a bit?

I need to vote very soon as well, I have to wake up ridiculously early tomorrow and need some sleep. I was considering Agan still a while ago but I was obviously wrong. I'm leaning towards Nessa at the moment actually. A part of me argues that a Nessawolf would be too easy a solution but the last time I thought that way she turned out to be a wolf. :rolleyes: I'm not comfortable with Nog and Mith, but not enough so to earn either of them a vote. I'd love to take some closer looks at people, but don't have the time sadly.


EDIT: x-ed with Ang and Agan (way too similar nicknames!)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I might be totally off with this - too lazy to go back and check - but I got the impression that Shasta was after phantom quite as much as Nog. That would make the scenario of a Shasta-Seer who dreamed Nog quite improbable.

I should clarify. I don't think Shasta was the Seer. But I do think our wolf pack is just lazy enough to swipe his behavior as an easy way to get the village to target Nog. Whether or not Nog is evil is irrelevant. The point is more that if we spend all of our time asking if Shasta was the seer or not, we won't be looking for other seer hints, we won't be searching for wolves, and we'll blow an entire Day talking about something that all boils down to the wolves taking the easy way out on choosing a kill.

As we both know, you tend to exaggerate rather than depreciate your minions' enemies' numbers! Your game was great, but I will always regret not persuading your own village to lynch you, 'Dark Lady'.

Indeed. There were only two. I just didn't tell you they died immediately and let y'all keep going.

And I was just going to casually include some lines from one (any, really) of the Dark Lady sonnets, but they're all about love and I don't want to leave false trails. Just know, village, that I'm feeling nostalgic about that game.

You're not serious, are you? Last time I checked, wolves weren't allowed to go kamikaze.

I'm dead serious. I just don't actually know if anybody has ever tried it. The only game where it would be at all beneficial is one like this, where roles aren't revealed.

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

Absolutely. It's all brand shiny new and I'm too honorable to look at it. Which means it's driving me crazy. Nilp me, let me learn! (Not really. I'm just curious.)

I'm unsure of what "distracting" you think I'm doing, penguin-breath. Is there only one thing we're allowed to talk about and anything else is a "distraction"? Frankly, when it comes to providing thoughts and feelings towards others I think I've done as much as anyone.

Someone sounds defensive...

More like, camp one says Day1 is important both then and especially in retrospect, while camp two says Day1 sucks excpet maybe in retrospect. ;)

Yup.

Eh? I think in this game all the Days are more or less like regular Day1s so I can't see what's the big difference.

Even without knowing the roles of the people we lynch, we can still ascertain the patterns of voting that led to lynches. For instance, phantom voting to avoid a double lynch even though it meant he didn't vote for his stated suspects makes phantom look good, because he could have just let multiple people die, but did not do so. The role of who died is irrelevant, the point is that phantom prevented a group lynch. That makes him look good.

Mithalwen, on the other hand, for attempting to provoke a multi-lynch, looks pretty bad.

Who voted for Manwe and what were their reasons? It doesn't matter that we don't know who he is, because we still have a traceable set of actions that led up to his departure and relocation.

Shasta. We don't know his role, but we know that he's probably not a wolf (because, let's face it, I doubt the wolves would try suicide if I wasn't one of them, offering it up). Therefore, we can look at reasons why not-wolf-Shasta would be targeted at Night. We can look at the people he interacted with. Or we can shrug it off and call it a random kill job.

The point is that we are still capable of identifying pieces of information and analyzing them. We just don't have all of the information handed to us.

I wanted to see reactions to Shasta's death before revealing (especially Nog's), and I rather didn't wait till tomorrow just on the offhand chance the wolves decided to target me. I'm not much wiser, except I am not feeling in any way better about Nog.

So if I'm remembering right, we'll be getting Shasta back for a little while?

Somehow makes me less suspicious of Nog though. Looks more like he was framed now (although the wolves don't really know anymore than us others). Hmm, wait, not sure if my own logic makes sense.

Makes no difference.

Final, frivolous consideration - interest in the Dead Thread is a character thing. Fea's got it too. We're the kind of people who would have been preeetty untrustworthy around the Ring

Nah. It's not mine, so I won't take it no matter how much I want it. I'm good at just shutting off that part of my mind. Since we can't do anything about anybody else's behavior, there's no sense in dwelling on whether or not people naughtily know more than we do. We should just play assuming they don't.

[the phantom]

A major point Nog is that when I first made that suggestion I was under the impression that the Seer could continue dreaming of Living players. Once someone (Agan?) told me this was not the case I amended my opinion to a specific situation- where a revealed Seer on the Living thread dies and announces his impending dream, and then using the Dead-Thread vote to indicate the result of the dream. It's a good idea, and has no benefit to the baddies.

Not to mention that I said this yesterday-
I have spent a grand total of... oh... five minutes considering tactics and such. I planned to dedicate a good deal of time to it during the first Night, but I was run ragged from dawn until dusk. So, I'm going to say some things and please tell me if my assumptions are missing a key point of this match.
Understand also that I'm not at this time proposing this!! All I wish to know now is if my limited time for thinking has caused me to misjudge the situation. IF it is determined that my thoughts are correct, then we can move on to actual discussion of options.

(Basically, I don't want anyone claiming I'm purposefully pushing something harmful in willful ignorance of some key point. I'd be an idiot to assume that said key point won't be brought to light given the makeup of this village.)
You're doing exactly the obvious annoying thing that I was warning against! I had no time to prepare for the game and I was making all of my posts either during class or while trying to supervise little kids in a computer lab, and in a revolutionary game with brand new rules such a set-up was bound to cause me problems. That's why I spent time tossing ideas around and such to make sure that by the end of Day 1 I had a much clearer picture of things (basically delegating much of the sitting and pondering that I normally do to other people).

And you'll note in the quotes above that I had a nagging suspicion that some annoying chump would latch onto this and say, "Ah ha! He's trying to mislead us! Evil!" which is why I tried to be as obvious as possible that I was NOT trying to get people to adopt my ideas but rather tell me if they were flawed FIRST.

The fact that's it's you of all people doing this incredibly obvious hack-job on me is extremely disappointing.

[Thinlómien]

Lommy, well then I hope you don't think your sister is an obscure grey box.Psst. Try highlighting it. ;)

I'm a blossoming youth at the peak of my powers, but I am doing a post-grad degree so I'm spiritually about 90; I won't contest this retirement-home stuff though it makes me feel a bit low (especially coming from Lommy who's be playing nearly as long as me really. Or is it my little hiatus that's winding you people up?)...Maybe it's the hiatus (or you being generally off key, heh heh what a good joke) - you know, the two things I remember about playing ww with you are the game when I first got fenrised thanks to you and another game where you accused me of "playing the second fiddle" to Nogrod's accusations. :D

Still thinking about the Nog thing. Mostly something like: if the wolves caught something that I didn't and thought Shasta was a lover, it doesn't mean they killed him because he looked like a seer to them. Ergo, Nogrod doesn't look so fishy. Makes more sense?

Having dinner now, but then I should leave you and vote. Haven't had time to think about people too much toDay, I've been more thinking about points than the ones who've been making them. Hmm. Well, I'll think about it.


edit: xed with Fea and Phantom

[the phantom]

Why would Shasta have been so unsubtle? No, wait, I can answer my own question. The excitement of being a Gifted gives one a great desire to boast, and makes one liable to deploy the overly confident double-bluff
False! As I said before, given this set up there is no purpose whatsoever to the Lovers hinting at one another. They already know each other, and it's extremely easy to prove their truthfulness (they COME BACK TO LIFE).

A Lover has no need to bluff or double-bluff, or hint or anything at all. A Lover in this game is simply an Ordo who rises from the grave, and is thus a PROVEN innocent. To say that Shasta was attempting any sort of Lover-based bluff I think is to misjudge his grasp of his role. (i.e. If I were a Wolf I wouldn't bother in the least trying to look for a Lover other than just looking for general jumpiness perhaps that might speak of a Gifted.)

[Nogrod]

Auch!

So what I was afraid was true then?

Looking at it from this POV makes it a bit more sensible though, as I could imagine Shasta being so excited to play lovers with Agan that he could freak out that way with a slightest suspicion (well actually not, it still feels soo odd way from him to react as I think I was the only one supecting him there). Sadly it brought the wolves to his door - and thence to Agan as well.

Heh, I was starting to suspect you Agan with your odd determination to suspect me, even if I was quite convinced after D1 that you were innocent. But I do understand it now as you have a right to say this all started because I suspected him. But then again, he made very badly informed accusations and, sad to say, messed it up himself.

I'd bet a fortune that if he had not made that last post of his he'd be alive still - and you Agan would too. *curses*

Okay then.

So who did it?


EDIT: x'd with a host again... (you guys really keep busy)

[Thinlómien]

I'd possibly die laughing if phanty and Ang were both cobblers.

The point is more that if we spend all of our time asking if Shasta was the seer or not, we won't be looking for other seer hints, we won't be searching for wolves, and we'll blow an entire Day talking about something that all boils down to the wolves taking the easy way out on choosing a kill.And if we don't talk about it, we ignore all the evidence we have.

Even without knowing the roles of the people we lynch, we can still ascertain the patterns of voting that led to lynches. For instance, phantom voting to avoid a double lynch even though it meant he didn't vote for his stated suspects makes phantom look good, because he could have just let multiple people die, but did not do so. The role of who died is irrelevant, the point is that phantom prevented a group lynch. That makes him look good.

Mithalwen, on the other hand, for attempting to provoke a multi-lynch, looks pretty bad.

Who voted for Manwe and what were their reasons? It doesn't matter that we don't know who he is, because we still have a traceable set of actions that led up to his departure and relocation.

Shasta. We don't know his role, but we know that he's probably not a wolf (because, let's face it, I doubt the wolves would try suicide if I wasn't one of them, offering it up). Therefore, we can look at reasons why not-wolf-Shasta would be targeted at Night. We can look at the people he interacted with. Or we can shrug it off and call it a random kill job.

The point is that we are still capable of identifying pieces of information and analyzing them. We just don't have all of the information handed to us.Yes, I see. But there's still also evidence on Day1, too, especially in the end of it (forming voting patterns, alliances, skirmishes, possible hints in banter etc).


edit: xed with Nog who sounds really rather scary!

[Boromir88]

I will likely make my vote for Nog, Glirdan, or Phantom. There's something reeking of evil amongst those three. In the very least I think Glirdan's a cobbler for pointing out Shasta's prior seer behavior yesterday, and following it up with some worry about Nog, but also the possibility he's getting framed. Dunno, just looks like Glirdy has a feeling Nog's a wolf.

Which wouldn't point to anything about Nog, other than someone I suspect is a cobbler thinks he's a wolf. Although I'm more and more not being convinced by Nog and his latest phantom-argument looks more desperatation than an honest disagreement and suspicion against tp.

That group of three, it's been clear enough to me, one of their agendas isn't good, and I would wager more.

Greenie will be elevated from Koala to Swarm of Killer bees if she votes for Nessa. That looks like an attempt to stay out of the main confrontations going on today and make a vote for someone who is either not likely to be lynched or a bandwagon victim if people start getting cold feet about Nog, Phantom or Glirdy. I'm understanding the uncomfortabality about Nog and Mith, because I'm feeling the same way. What I'm not understanding Greenie, is why that's not strong enough to earn your vote, and thus why Nessa? I know you said her vote bothered you yesterday, but today there's been enough shenanigans between Nog, Phantom and Mith that I think is suspicious enough.

Wilwa's threat level decreased from Shark infested waters to Koala. She posted, I disagree with her about Glirdan, but knowing she would have said the same thing I did yesterday makes her look good. And that's not because she agreed, but I can just imagine wilwa having that "what are you silly people talking about" reaction for yesterday.

[A Little Green]

Psst. Try highlighting it.I did.
Still thinking about the Nog thing. Mostly something like: if the wolves caught something that I didn't and thought Shasta was a lover, it doesn't mean they killed him because he looked like a seer to them. Ergo, Nogrod doesn't look so fishy. Makes more sense?

Having dinner now, but then I should leave you and vote.Got your point. Thanks! Also, dinner at 10.30 PM?

Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post.


EDIT: x-ed with Boro

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Agan - feeling like quoting a Finnish folk song which is about a bear whose biggest crime was endless love.
Fea - seems fine enough, more invlolved and sensible than normally, which I like. ;)

In-between
Nogrod - gives me headache, to be honest.
Greenie - kind of to the point but there's something a bit different in her manner than usual. Can't say what, though, so not saying anything more yet.
Ed - mostly, reminds me of Winnie the Pooh. It's just an irrational association I get from reading her posts and it's all I have this far.
Nerwen - under the radar.
Legate - no idea.
Nessa - see above.
BG - has she even posted yet...?
Sally - where is Sallycake?
Boro - seems innocent and guilty at the same time.
Mith - I think I can usually read her pretty well, but this time I have no clue.

Suspicious-ish
Glirdan - not entirely a fan of his case against me.
Lottie - hasn't done anything useful to put it bluntly, only phangirled. (Don't worry I heart you anyway, Lottiepop!)
Wilwa - the little I've seen of her is just off. Her manner is somehow smug (in the lack of a better word), and it makes me uneasy.
the phantom - smells of pie.
Anguirel - see above, although the stench is not as strong in his case.


edit: xed with both

[A Little Green]

Greenie will be elevated from Koala to Swarm of Killer bees if she votes for Nessa. That looks like an attempt to stay out of the main confrontations going on today and make a vote for someone who is either not likely to be lynched or a bandwagon victim if people start getting cold feet about Nog, Phantom or Glirdy. I'm understanding the uncomfortabality about Nog and Mith, because I'm feeling the same way. What I'm not understanding Greenie, is why that's not strong enough to earn your vote, and thus why Nessa? I know you said her vote bothered you yesterday, but today there's been enough shenanigans between Nog, Phantom and Mith that I think is suspicious enough.Nessa is the one I have the most solid unease with, based, I admit, largely on her very strange vote yesterDay. As for Mith and Nog - Mith I'm just totally at a loss with and therefore wouldn't like to vote, and Nog is more confusing than downright wolfy. Or was, more like, because he's seriously giving me the creeps now. And I don't really see how voting for Nessa would be more suspicious than voting, say, Nog who seems to be quite a common suspect (ie. quite easy for a wolf to jump on if he is, in fact, innocent).


EDIT: x-ed with Lomz

[Thinlómien]

Got your point. Thanks! Also, dinner at 10.30 PM? Blame Agan the cook. ;)

Okay, Boro has a fair point about Glirdy looking like a cobbler. That means I'm actually not going to vote him, because I think the wolves are our primary target. The same logic also saves Phantom and Ang from my vote toDay.

And I'm not really sure if Lottie isn't just a rather confused and possibly slightly lazy or time-limited ordo.

So

++Wilwa

I'm aware this is not the most reasoned of all votes, but call it a gut-feeling. Read her post where she quotes Boro. It's just somehow smug, the tone, she gives the impression that she is slightly less confused than the rest of us, which she would be if she only entered the game after nice Nightly briefing by her pack. Also, the wolves have more reason to enjoy the confusion than us, because after all, their objective is just to slaughter while we really need to watch out for what we're shooting at.


edit: xed with Greenie

[Nogrod]

Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post.

edit: xed with Nog who sounds really rather scary!

etc. etc. etc.

I'd appreciate some real points to refute before I go to sleep than this wishy-washiness which just piles up into common knowledge all those who don't actually read the thread but just vote offhand stick with.

I have nothing against dying after a decent fight with crafty wolves & cobblers or misguided ordos, but that is just plain annoying.


EDIT: x'd with Lommies & Greenie

[the phantom]

Well, at least with that last revelation we can now predict what's been going on in the Dead Thread.

Manwe: Dies and iz dead. Darn. So, um...
*waits*
Manwe: Vote or something?
Rikae: No.
*waits*
Shasta: Dead 2. *#$(#@!!
Manwe: Yay! I haz friend! What R U?
Shasta: Lover, lol
Manwe: Nuh uh
Shasta: Um yeah
Manwe: rly?
Shasta: yeppers
Manwe: Oh noes! I'll B alone again!
Shasta: We vote & stuff?
Rikae: Yes.
Shasta: Coolz.
Manwe: Woot!
Shasta: ++ Manwe
Manwe: ++ Shasta (x-post)
Shasta: ROTFL!!
Manwe: LMAO!!

I think that's about right.

[A Little Green]

Well past bed-time, once again.

++ Nog

Since I figured a Nessa vote would be pretty much a throwaway. A bad premise, but that's it.

[Nerwen]

Back and reading.

[Nogrod]

Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post.etc. etc. etc.

I'd appreciate some real points to refute before I go to sleep than this wishy-washiness which just piles up into common knowledge all those who don't actually read the thread but just vote offhand stick with.

Well past bed-time, once again.

++ NogI don't need to underline this, do I? :confused:

But well, like Ang, tp and Fea have already said, gaining a chance to enter the Mandos thread would be interesting indeed.

Speaking of which... I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler). And looking at the number of views there (182) thus far strongly suggests it's not done only by the mods and now two players, added with random 'Downers just curious what the thread is about.

So let me strongly disagree and protest.

Keep away from it. Really.

Looking there is unsportsmanlike and bad gaming. And what's the joy of winning if you gain it by deceit?


Some suspicions (and hopefully reasons to trust) coming forwards in a moment or two.

[Aganzir]

if the wolves caught something that I didn't and thought Shasta was a lover, it doesn't mean they killed him because he looked like a seer to them. Ergo, Nogrod doesn't look so fishy. Makes more sense?
If the wolves caught a lover hint, they were extremely paranoid. During his early banter Shasta said he'd have to be Lúthien if Nerwen was Beren. Incidentally, it was true, but that's all there was. So no it doesn't make sense.

False! As I said before, given this set up there is no purpose whatsoever to the Lovers hinting at one another. They already know each other, and it's extremely easy to prove their truthfulness (they COME BACK TO LIFE).
Exactly and that's what we agreed - instead we were going to suspect each other if need be in order not to be night-killed.

So what I was afraid was true then?
And what exactly were you afraid of?

Looking at it from this POV makes it a bit more sensible though, as I could imagine Shasta being so excited to play lovers with Agan that he could freak out that way with a slightest suspicion (well actually not, it still feels soo odd way from him to react as I think I was the only one supecting him there).
You are underestimating him (psht, as if playing lovers with me was so unusual for him :p). He was seriously annoyed with you and thought you were being deliberately mean.

But I do understand it now as you have a right to say this all started because I suspected him. But then again, he made very badly informed accusations and, sad to say, messed it up himself.
Hmm. I seem to remember we both agreed you looked freaking suspicious. See my post 90, that's where it started for me. (Oh and I actually left a hint - the beautiful lady I'm possibly going to paint was no one else than Lúthien Tinúviel. We discussed you on MSN.)

I am willing to vote for Nog today. He is false and needs to die. Remember Nog, death is not the end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am1kJM823Vk) - and if you're innocent, you can surely help us even after your death. ;)

Got your point. Thanks! Also, dinner at 10.30 PM?

Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post.
Yesterday we had dinner at 1 am.
And I totally agree about Nog's reaction. It not only looks like damage control but also as if he was trying to... twist everything.

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.

Nog if you want reasons, I can naturally go through my posts and make a summary of what I've said of you so far. My main (rational) argument against you is that you should know better, ergo you're playing dumb, and I can't see an innocent you doing it.

[Nogrod]

So my take on things so far.

Starting with the more or less obvious.

Aganzir & Shasta = Beren and Lúthien

I believe it.

As I was afraid of toDay after connecting the dots: Shasta panicked because of one suspicion because he knew he had a dream-role and his lynching would be bad both for his once-in-a-lifetime game and for the village as it's quite improbable Mänwewas the seer (and if he was, he couldn't probably tell him much when returning being lynched on D1). I still wonder why he was that panicky, but that's the only reasonable explanation - which we will learn about toMorrow. If this is a sham Shasta will not come back.

Also, the way Aganzir behaved fits in nicely. She jumped on me for understandable, even if wrong reasons. And like lovers do, they don't accept their loved one made a mistake so it had to be someone else doing it. It looks quite obvious to me - on a level things can be obvious in a ww-game... Well, at least it makes sense.


Uhh, I see Agan has made a huge post... continuing in a moment. I think we need to agree on few things so I'd better check it first.

[the phantom]

I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler).
I don't follow that point at all. The fact that I clicked on the thread right when Rikae opened it and being made aware of my mistake thanks to her opening lines... How does that indicate anything at all?
So let me strongly disagree and protest.

Keep away from it. Really.

Looking there is unsportsmanlike and bad gaming. And what's the joy of winning if you gain it by deceit?
Now here you're just agreeing with me. I said earlier that I gave my word not to read the thread and I intend to honor my word, and that I'm very paranoid about being put at a disadvantage because of it (i.e. I'll be completely ticked if I suspect it's being done).

Anyway... Back to your earlier post- You still haven't responded to what I said here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647895&postcount=264). It seems to me you started off your suspicions of me by reaching big time and now you're building further assumptions based upon the opinion that you formed through the initial sloppy grasping.

[Nerwen]

False! As I said before, given this set up there is no purpose whatsoever to the Lovers hinting at one another. They already know each other, and it's extremely easy to prove their truthfulness (they COME BACK TO LIFE).

A Lover has no need to bluff or double-bluff, or hint or anything at all. A Lover in this game is simply an Ordo who rises from the grave, and is thus a PROVEN innocent. To say that Shasta was attempting any sort of Lover-based bluff I think is to misjudge his grasp of his role. (i.e. If I were a Wolf I wouldn't bother in the least trying to look for a Lover other than just looking for general jumpiness perhaps that might speak of a Gifted.)
Yeah, but... Shasta actually did go out of his way to joke about being Lúthien. So whether it made sense for him to try a double-bluff or not, it seems that's what he did. (I'm assuming Agan's telling the truth.)

So– was that what put the wolves on his trail? After all, nobody seemed to take it seriously at the time. And would that mean our wolves are showing great subtlety– or none whatever? ("Duuuh... well, he said he's Lúthien...")

Speaking of which... I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler). And looking at the number of views there (182) thus far strongly suggests it's not done only by the mods and now two players, added with random 'Downers just curious what the thread is about.

So let me strongly disagree and protest.

Keep away from it. Really.

Looking there is unsportsmanlike and bad gaming. And what's the joy of winning if you gain it by deceit?
Quite right– and all I can say is, whoever's been looking at the thread, it isn't me.

EDIT:X'd with many.

[Aganzir]

I have noticed some of you guys speak of people peeking at the dead-thread prematurely is more or less understandable and kind of obvious people do it (tp even admitted doing that, which actually fits well with my thought of him being the cobbler). And looking at the number of views there (182) thus far strongly suggests it's not done only by the mods and now two players, added with random 'Downers just curious what the thread is about.
I did the same as the phantom before the game started ("there's no harm reading the narration, there isn't any information yet"). I also stopped reading after the very first sentence, and haven't peeked in since. I don't think that tells anything about phantom whatsoever.

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.

[the phantom]

Ha! Thanks Agan! Basically you've confirmed in my mind what I had been thinking about the kill- that insinuating that Shasta was suspected by the Wolves to be any specific Gifted is somewhat insulting to Shasta and the intelligence with which I am certain he would play such a role. It made no sense to me that the Wolves would look for Lover hints from a Shasta-Lover, nor for obvious Seer behavior from a Seer-Shasta, for that would be to say that the Wolves thought him to be rather dense.

[Aganzir]

Also, the way Aganzir behaved fits in nicely. She jumped on me for understandable, even if wrong reasons. And like lovers do, they don't accept their loved one made a mistake so it had to be someone else doing it. It looks quite obvious to me - on a level things can be obvious in a ww-game... Well, at least it makes sense.
I can only refer you to the post I made recently - my suspicion of you had nothing to do with Shasta's opinion. He was suspicious of the phantom, I wasn't. Really what are you thinking, that we're one mind split between two bodies? No. We just knew of each other's innocence, that's all.

And please consider what you say. You're seriously being rude.

Yeah, but... Shasta actually did go out of his way to joke about being Lúthien.
Which depended on your being Beren (granted, the wolves obviously couldn't know it unless you're one yourself), and anybody who's ever played with you two shouldn't have thought there was something out of ordinary. I doubt they took it seriously, therefore I think his death has more to do with Nog (either getting rid of a possible seer or trying to frame him).

[Nogrod]

And what exactly were you afraid of?That Shasta was the ranger... or even more likely a lover. Just go back there and look at the posting (and not you MSN as we others don't have that priviledge), and anyway try to look at it from an outsider's POV as to how serious the situation was for him to get lynched at that point when we both made our last posts on D1. His reaction was so overdone it made no sense, but the wolves probably picked it, just because of it.

(psht, as if playing lovers with me was so unusual for him :p). Well, that was the point that made me see it... Sorry, meta-reasoning is always bad, but here I think it applies. Even if I'm not going to say what I believe stands or falls with it. Let's say it's one slight confirmation of what I think.

He was seriously annoyed with you and thought you were being deliberately mean.As I felt I was one of the scarce people trying to make points and really do something on D1 I could say I found his sudden suspicion and decision a mean one. And I must say he started it. He just made a bad decision there.

I am willing to vote for Nog today. He is false and needs to die. Remember Nog, death is not the end (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am1kJM823Vk) - and if you're innocent, you can surely help us even after your death. ;)Well technically yes, if I feel like doing it after all this crap you guys load on me with no real points to back it... but Mandos does actually call me. It would be soo interesting to get to take a look and play there.

So I'm kind of lingering between the basic gut-feeling of not willing to get lynched as an ordo and looking forwards to that dead-thread...


And I totally agree about Nog's reaction. It not only looks like damage control but also as if he was trying to... twist everything.Would you be more specific here so that I could make it right? This really baffles me.

Nog if you want reasons, I can naturally go through my posts and make a summary of what I've said of you so far. My main (rational) argument against you is that you should know better, ergo you're playing dumb, and I can't see an innocent you doing it.Think outside the box of your love, darling. This game is much more complex we can see... at least I have have gotten new insights into this game day and night and I still don't claim to understand how this game works.

But it doesn't work well if a lover plays overtly stupidly on D1. That much I think we all can assess.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean. But you have to face it he acted stupidly. And that it was not me who killed him but the wolves.

Just think again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?
Well, I assume we all are, but there is little sense in speculating before we get there, right? Personally, I disapprove of talking about it, because I think we can have no information about it, at least until we are there or until somebody returns.

Mänwe is a cobbler? Surely. Perfectly possible. If he thought both me and Shasta were innocents that "fueling the flames" -comment that probably got him lynched would look like a cobblery one.

I said innocent, not ordo, or ordinary innocent. Meaning he's not a wolf (whom the others tried to save). I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.
I would paraphrase your own words: Are you trying to make US suspect YOU? This sounds like what they call "retcon" (for people who might not know what it means, you can look it up in some online dictionary for sure). I mean, since when has Cobbler been "innocent"? Don't give us that: Rubbish and more rubbish. No, I don't trust Nog, not after this on top of everything. This-is-weird.

I have similar feelings about Lommy, maybe the whole clan is somehow bad in this game. Well, I don't know about Greenie - she is rather smoothly posting, but perhaps that's just it? No, anyway, I just feel bad about those.

Likewise, my opinion about Lottie has not changed for the better since yesterDay, although I'm still wondering if she is just the Cobbler. Possibly if I were to name three Cobblers, it could be Lottie, Nog and either Phantom or Lommy. Although I think it's more likely that Phantom'd be a Wolf, if anything. I'm not sure if I have ever encountered him in Cobbler-mode, but I would somehow expect him to behave differently, thinking of that.

Legate - not having played with Manwe before, I was unaware that he was a particularly frequent scapegoat; while I regret having played a major role in lynching an unoriginal target, I must say he clearly picked the right game...perhaps he'd booked his bed in Mandos early.
Well, agreed. And I know that many people here wouldn't know about this history of Mänwe... but that does not have any impact on the game itself, of course: Wolves would still lynch him because he's an easy target, etc., etc... so the fact that you didn't know about this has obviously no influence on you voting him or not, whatever your real motives were.

I agree that Glirdan's comparison involving seers was unwise, but it seems to me not necessarily malicious. I must say that I'm known Glirdan as a Cobbler so often that I have illogical and unmathematical resistance to imagining him in that role yet again. I lean towards incautious innocent.
Anybody can post stuff like that, though I would somehow think of the generally more cautious players (among whom I count Glirdan) not being so careless.

Where art thou gone? The day is bare,
the sunlight dark, and cold the air!
Shastanis, where went thy feet?
O wayward star! O maiden sweet!
O flower of Elfland all too fair
for mortal heart! The woods are bare!

Congrats, wolves. You killed Lúthien.
Oh, my. Well, means that we at least get info back from Mandos. Note: it does come to effect only the Day after, so the folks in Mandos (three after we lynch, unless we make some mega-lynch) will still get to vote one of them before Shasta returns, right?

Well of course we have a phabbler.

I mean I was thinking about it yesterDay and then a bit during the Night - as this time no looking back to the thread by Night will be futile as you don't die as such.

Basically he was talking sense, making good points, being reasonable... well what else do you expect from tp? And I actually thought him a good and helpful ordinary innocent there and then.
I cannot once again agree on this, this once again seems false, "retcon". I would say that Phantom is never "reasonable" when he is innocent - if such a word would be used for his innocence, then carelessly at most, but not consciously, because let's face it, he's NOT. He is "inventive" in his own way, but not "reasonable". I think a normal, reasonable (sic) person would never use that word in the context you do, i.e. as a sign of innocence of tp, which is about to be reevaluated. (I don't know if you who are reading can understand what I mean by this, but simply it is, I think Nog is using very weird language and on very weird occassions, which he seems making up.) This sounds to me like once again Cobbler Nog pulling on straws.

However, I've just seen Aganzir's revelation. Weird if true. Why would Shasta have been so unsubtle? No, wait, I can answer my own question. The excitement of being a Gifted gives one a great desire to boast, and makes one liable to deploy the overly confident double-bluff (cf WW II, my disastrous outing as Guardian; sorry if I'm boring you, whippersnappers).
Why are you even questioning that? I mean, it would be far weirder for somebody to say "I am a Lover and my darling is dead", since we'd learn the other Day anyway. Unless the person was killed or something.

All in all - not much time, once again, alas. But I am going to make a list of whom I suspect and whom I might choose from toDay, and decide whom to vote soon.

EDIT: x-ed with two last posts at the previous page and with everybody after...

[Nerwen]

A change of subject–

Originally Posted by Boro
I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.
Awww, thanks. Trying to imply you're a cobbler, though?

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Edit:clarification.

[Nogrod]

Which depended on your being Beren (granted, the wolves obviously couldn't know it unless you're one yourself), and anybody who's ever played with you two shouldn't have thought there was something out of ordinary. I doubt they took it seriously, therefore I think his death has more to do with Nog (either getting rid of a possible seer or trying to frame him).Agan please... come out from this fatalistic despair that blinds you as your loved one has died. I share your pessimism as to the game right now, but let's fight.

Don't you see the 1+1 = 2 here?

Shasta joked being the lover with Nerwen - and then when suspected freaked out in a way only catching attention. What did the wolves think? That he was indeed the lover, his joking banter in the beginning just nailing it to them? (actually I didn't remember that but now as Nerwen reminded me about it, I can see it very well) And of course they killed him and not Nerwen as it was not clear which one or was ot true wiht Nerw, but the two unrelated things both pointed into Shasta being a lover.

May I remind you that on my first post on D1 I said the wolves would love to do away with the lovers and the ranger first and that those people should stay out of the fray?

Well sadly they have been succesful.

And I'm not playing dumb. I think I have not been this sharp in a long time. Which doesn't mean I claim to know things in particular but that I have a hang of how this goes and that my central beliefs have been proved right (like your innocence form D1).

But we're only in the beginning of this game - as this time the game continues on two levels anyway.


EDIT x'd with Leg & Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Anyway, I have to go and will try to be back by the DL. I need to sort my thoughts on people out more before I vote.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nogrod - most likely Cobbler. His posts smell of being false, but up to the point that no Wolf would really do that. Or, if you don't mind me saying it, I think no Wolf would be so silly.
Aganzir - trusting her Lover-claim (and pity her, though well, you'll get to be with your lover in Mandos also)
Glirdan - well he has been active, on the other hand, few questions have been raised around him with which I concur, but nothing particularly striking yet
A Little Green - like I said, smooth posting, not suspicious, which of course might just be it, but... whatever.
elronds_daughter - hm, one of the people I need to look better at, there was something troubling me about her, but not sure what. Though it wasn't anything striking, probably. Maybe just the impression.
Nerwen - has managed to be rather under my radar, to be honest. She was one of the Mänwe bandwagon, and not in the most convinient of places, I think I should look at her better as soon as I have a bit more time.
Loslote - really weird, I keep to thinking that she might be a Cobbler, most likely (once again, for a Wolf a bit too messy style)
Wilwa - also managed to be under my radar, though this is her first Day, so basically...
Lommy - I still think she is really behaving strangely, more possibly a Cobbler
Nessa - erm, I could maybe ask, what was it with the vote for me yesterDay? I mean, yes, random, half-joky retaliation, sure, why not, but it's the generall merry-go-nothing tone which seemed peculiar to me. Also a candidate for some sinister figure, in fact.
Blind Guardian - more info needed?
satansaloser2005 - also not enough data.
the phantom - I am unsure about him, on Day 1 he seemed fine, now his posting has been more strange, although lately again there are posts which gave me better feeling about him. But I don't know.
Boromir88 - I don't know what to make of him, now it has occured to me, though, that he does not show the most typical sign of a Borowolf, that is, being very jumpy while being suspected. Though on the other hand, he hasn't been under any strong suspicion much this far.
Mithalwen - no real suspicion now
Anguirel - this fellow is really interesting, I mean, extraordinary. Most curious, is basically the best I can say in relation to him. His reply concerning the Mänwe-bandwagon did not really prove anything, but his tone was, well, let me put it this way - at least he bothered to reply. So...
Fea - she has posted very little, from a few things in her posts, I had a strange feeling and was wondering, but in any case, I am not suspecting her enough to vote her now

Well, so this is it for the time being... I'll see about my voting yet. It is possible that I might stay up a bit later and try to finish the studybook I am reading, and therefore vote a bit later as well. But maybe not, depends how tired I feel. But I will definitely check back a bit later still.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Edit:clarification.

Hm, interesting point. As for "why bother", it is true that the Cobblers can perfectly well wreak havoc on their own, but possibly, if they can do it, it is still better to have a "union" with the Wolves, sort of a "know your ally" thing. But it is true that it can be equally risky for them - that such hints can be spotted. In general I'd imagine that as a Wolf trying to find a Cobbler or vice versa, one would try subtler hints. But yes, well, maybe this was one sort of a bit too exposed hint (unless, of course, Nerwen is here trying to frame Boro or Lommy - and if it came to me, I would think more likely about the former). But anyway, going for now, will be back later to vote at least.

[Nogrod]

This actually makes me think very suspicious of Legate. After a lonf absence he decides to make this his point? Really? Someone with his brains and experience would have done differently being an ordinary innocent:I mean, since when has Cobbler been "innocent"? Don't give us that: Rubbish and more rubbish. No, I don't trust Nog, not after this on top of everything. This-is-weird.Somehow I'm feeling this is not only about semantics... but let me make my understanding clear - and then you can judge the merit of this.

In a village, there are innocents and wolves. And then there are gifteds who are innocents but with a special role. At some time during the history of the WW in the 'Downs the cobblers were introduced, but they are counted as innocents as they are not wolves (the winning-tallies count the cobblers as innocents when calculating the winning conditions).

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.

Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

Gifteds and wolves are self-explicating.


But the real problem with Legate's post is not this. It is the fact he uses that false point as grounds of suspicion.

There may be different interpretations to the terms to be sure as there are different generations of werewolf-players around, but taking this kind of thing and stating it's "rubbish" and a reason to suspect someone feels pretty awkward, well plain evil.

I mean what Mänwe was is not a big thing toDay as we have no way of checking it toDay.

[Nogrod]

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.I hope I am. I truly hope that. But after my last account I can now see there are 201 views on the thread. A lot more than two players would make (add the mods & possible outsiders). And the general count over 200 just makes one think it's not possible without a host of people checking it regularly (the mods and one, then two dead ones do not form a host).

So just stay away from it! Please.

Let's play this honourably.


As a second thought, should Rikae ask the forum-mods if there is a way to find out who has been opening the dead-thread? They clearly have a counter that picks the number of visits, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem to see who were the people the number of visits come from?

I mean I'm ready to see a list from the visits there and to suggest disqualifying everyone who has been there. After the first posts maybe... as I understand I myself felt a temptation to look at the first narrations involved when there were no players in there yet. But I didn't blink. And no one should have as that is clearly prohibited.

So let's say, anyone who has visited the Dead-thread after Mänwe died should be banned from werewolf for a year or something? I think the site-mods could find that out.

I may be paranoid, but looking at the number of views there just feels awkwardly big thinking it's forbidden from everyone who'd be interested....

[Glirdan]

Okay, so my rehearsal was apparently cancelled, thus making me here. However, I do believe that I will be going out for supper very soon thus making me not here for a period of time again.

I'm just going to throw this out there now that I may vote completely at random or may not vote at all as I will not have nearly enough time to get myself all caught up on everything.

Okay, going to go back and skim quickly and hopefully post once more.

[Aganzir]

++NOGROD

I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option.

I am not going to argue with you about if Shasta overreacted or not. Or if he acted stupidly or not.

As I felt I was one of the scarce people trying to make points and really do something on D1 I could say I found his sudden suspicion and decision a mean one. And I must say he started it. He just made a bad decision there.
But my suspicion wasn't bad and/or mean?

if I feel like doing it after all this crap you guys load on me with no real points to back it...
I'd say you called it upon yourself. You'll probably disagree. Anyhow I find it more likely an innocent tries to help and says "I told you so!" afterwards. Nog is just being a martyr.

Would you be more specific here so that I could make it right? This really baffles me.
No. Or maybe yes but not right now. I'm getting tired of your aggression.

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"
That's a good point - not sure if it means anything, but I wouldn't be surprised. Lommy has been awfully eager to fish for cobblers, anyway.

And of course they killed him and not Nerwen as it was not clear which one or was ot true wiht Nerw, but the two unrelated things both pointed into Shasta being a lover.
You seem to know very much about why Shasta died. Now the question is, did Wolfrod spot a lover and is now irritated about nobody believing he did it? You know, the real reason for someone getting killed is often so obvious to the wolves they can't understand how others don't see it...

[Nogrod]

And I really mean it.

If the forum-mods tell us x, y & z have been reading the dead thread after Mänwe died, then they should be modfired and banned from werewolf for a long time. And if that ouldn't happen, I would be the first to vote for them in every game for a while on D1 just because they're not decent people if they ever re-appeared in the games disregarding the scorn we all should make on them for betraying us.

Of course if everyone but me have been there then it's better I quit playing this game for a while.

Really, I crave to see what's in there and I'd love to experience that game, but really, people, patience...

Let's play by the rules! (and that's not against anyone in particular, but on the sheer numbers of views in there)


EDIT: x'd with Glirdy & Agan

[the phantom]

My case against Lommy from yesterday (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647692&postcount=125)) still stands today, and I said earlier today that in my reread I was feeling bad manipulation from Boro, and so now Nerwen's idea of linking them together as Cobbler & Wolf looks quite attractive to me.

So yeah- I'm still totally up for lynching Lommy.

As far as Nog.... *sigh* He felt innocent to me all day yesterday, and even today he doesn't exactly scream "guilt" so much as he seems... something.... odd. I think I and others have demonstrated some flaws in his attacks, and honestly I'm starting to get VERY irritated with the fact that he still hasn't responded to my initial questioning of his opinion on me, despite my prodding.

Meh, I'll decide later. I have an assignment due at 8:00 that I need to finish off. I'll look in periodically.

(edit: sp)

[Mithalwen]

I did the same as the phantom before the game started ("there's no harm reading the narration, there isn't any information yet"). I also stopped reading after the very first sentence, and haven't peeked in since. I don't think that tells anything about phantom whatsoever.

I think you're underestimating the honesty of the werewolf players. I just can't imagine anyone cheating.

I did look at the narration before anyone died but I can't remember anything and haven't and won't look until properly entitled. But I don't see the point of hassling the mods because if I were to cheat I wouldn't sign in to do it and I prolly wouldn't use my own computer.

[Mithalwen]

Let's play by the rules! (and that's not against anyone in particular, but on the sheer numbers of views in there)


I don't want to use the phrase Ang hates but I think your assumption doesn't bear up to some simple maths.

This thread has almost 8.3 views per post the dead thread has a smidgen over 7 views per post. So quite proportional..

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So let's say, anyone who has visited the Dead-thread after Mänwe died should be banned from werewolf for a year or something? I think the site-mods could find that out.

I may be paranoid, but looking at the number of views there just feels awkwardly big thinking it's forbidden from everyone who'd be interested....

Here's my assumption: when I'm playing WW I just leave the thread open and frequently refresh it as I'm doing things. That would jack up the view count since each time you hit refresh it counts as a page view (I think).

So how about instead of assuming people are cheating, we assume that the people who are allowed to look are looking very frequently, and that non-players are also following the discussion.

I'd rather assume the best of everyone than assume the worst. And if we find out post-game that somebody was cheating all along, we can certainly self-regulate without the need to get mods involved (like mod-firing). I know there have been multiple discussions about shutting down WW because of how non-Tolkien it is. I'd hate to involve them in this if we don't have to.

I would be the first to vote for them in every game for a while on D1 just because they're not decent people if they ever re-appeared in the games disregarding the scorn we all should make on them for betraying us.

That's exactly what I meant by self-regulation. Firstly, I don't believe any of us would knowingly cheat. I say this because the sheer overwhelming amount of disappointment that would be heaped upon them by everybody else would be awful. I mean, EVERYBODY would be really, really saddened by that kind of behavior. Everybody here loves playing, and we all respect each other's opinions, and hope to stay in each other's high esteem. I can't imagine anybody would want to damage that by doing something as stupid (and traceable) as cheating.

As far as Nog.... *sigh* He felt innocent to me all day yesterday, and even today he doesn't exactly scream "guilt" so much as he seems... something.... odd. I think I and others have demonstrated some flaws in his attacks, and honestly I'm started to get VERY irritated with the fact that he still hasn't responded to my initial questioning of his opinion on me, despite my prodding.

I hate agreeing with you. It's so fun to bicker. But I agree with you. I will almost definitely be voting for Nog today because I just don't trust him.

This thread has almost 8.3 views per post the dead thread has a smidgen over 7 views per post. So quite proportional..

Yes! Thank you. Like I said, I'm really not concerned about cheaters because we can always alienate them mercilessly later. Ask anybody that's ever made me mad: I am AWESOME at making them feel guilty without even being obviously mean.

[Nogrod]

Would you be more specific here so that I could make it right? This really baffles me.
No. Or maybe yes but not right now. I'm getting tired of your aggression.Now I'm really baffled - and I mean in general terms and not just this game. I mean I have heard a lot of people (oftentimes wolves but not everytime) claiming I am aggressive, game after game. But I don't think myself being that. Now this is a really good example of it.

So how is that aggressive? Please tell me.

And I mean really. I just don't understand it.

Okay I'm a non-native speaker, but I don't think I'm that wrong in thinking the above quote was not aggressive (about the discussion between me and Shasta, please look back to my previous posts where I stated my view on speculating about other peoples' guilt). Or does someone think it is aggressive? I really woud like to learn about that.

Or any other quote - or the vague impression-grabbing remark without a specific quote *cough Greenie cough* - people have made. I hate these memes people cling into when they have either nothing to say or their own evil agendas suggest them (or like with the case of Agan here are blinded by their loss to see the bigger picture).

With my experience I'd say it's basically the wolves who do that and make the less informed ordos follow them.


Well anyway, I need to make my list so as I can get to sleep as it is to late already now...


EDIT: x'd from my last post.

[Glirdan]

Nerwen has asked Glirdan a fair question about what he meant by the Manwe-bandwagon. I'm interested in Glirdan's response, but also, earlier I was not vehemently going after Nog. The above is what it looks like when I go into attack mode. Do you see the difference now Glirdy?

And apparently someone is not reading the thread entirely. I did answer her, post #207 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647816&postcount=207). And please note that even though I used the word attack (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647816&postcount=207), I did say that it was an overstatement, and I quote (myself ironically lol) with the part in question bolded:

Boro - All day, his attack (okay, maybe that's a little too strong of a word...his, thoughts and ideas will suffice for this) on [/b]Nog[/b] just made no sense to me. Granted, Nog has me a little baffled, but that's not unusual. But Boro's has been pretty adamant about it....I don't know, something just feels off.

That's easy. I wanted to kill Lommy, but at that point it was impossible, so I had to vote for someone else. I wanted to rule out a multi-lynch, so I just boosted the lead of Manwe who was already guaranteed to die. Why put Legate or Nog under threat with my vote when I suspected neither of them? The death of one person you haven't particularly suspected is much better than the double-lynching of two people you don't suspect.

I see your reasoning....but why not vote for Lommy anyways? Manwe's fate was already stamped, sealed and set for deployment to Mandos. Why not stick with your gut and vote Lommy whether or not she standed a chance of being lynched? Your vote would have only mattered if it would have been placed on someone for a double lynch, but by voting last and by voting Manwe, you made a very safe vote. I don't know but it seems fishy. I don't think it Wolfish because that would be too obvious, but I would not put it past a Cobbler phanty.

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

I'm not sure what I think of this, but somehting about it is not sitting right with me. Just because there appeared to be no last minute rescue-operation doesn't necessarily clear him of having been a Wolf. And looking back, there was the possibility of a wolf rescue mission, of none other then yourself. There were two votes, made by Ang and Nerwen, for Manwe that were made within ten minutes of each other. I doubt both of them are but I feel quite certain that at least one of them could be a Wolf with you. Very tempted to vote for you.

A badly grounded vote is not the same as a throwaway. And obviosuly it was not throwaway, in retrospect, it determined the whole voting outcome of the Day. Now we just hope Mänwë was a wolf but I wouldn't bet too much on that.

Fair enough.

[the phantom]

I see your reasoning....but why not vote for Lommy anyways? Manwe's fate was already stamped, sealed and set for deployment to Mandos. Why not stick with your gut and vote Lommy whether or not she standed a chance of being lynched?
In other words, you are recommending that I throw away my vote in that position, and leave it open to one of our non-voters (Sally, Wilwa, Blind) to swoop in and purposefully or accidentally cause a double or triple lynch?

That's insane, Glirdan.

A Lommy vote would accomplish nothing! Completely and totally pointless!

A Manwe vote on the other hand protected against a multi-lynch.

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

[Glirdan]

In other words, you are recommending that I throw away my vote in that position, and leave it open to one of our non-voters (Sally, Wilwa, Blind) to swoop in and purposefully or accidentally cause a double or triple lynch?

That's insane, Glirdan.

A Lommy vote would accomplish nothing! Completely and totally pointless!

A Manwe vote on the other hand protected against a multi-lynch.

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

When you put it that way and remind me of the non-voters of yesterDay, I'm inclined to agree with you. I had been completely disregarding the non-voters because at the time of your vote, there stood a very little chance that they would pop on and vote.

Yet I do see your point now and completely agree.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Are you seriously implying that it's better to throw away one's vote and allow for a disaster than to do something useful with one's vote to ward off disaster?

Yeah, that's exactly why Glirdy's #2 on my list of People to Vote For. His statements baffle me.

Edit: crossed with Glirdy... who seems to have spatula'ed himself from one side of the pan to the other. Which, in my brain, sends him from pan to fire... Ie: he didn't really help his cause.

[Rikae]

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.

I'd also like to remind everyone to keep their tone within reasonably respectful limits, and be mindful of the fact that words can seem harsher on the screen than the writer might intend.

That's all for now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I hope I am. I truly hope that. But after my last account I can now see there are 201 views on the thread. A lot more than two players would make (add the mods & possible outsiders). And the general count over 200 just makes one think it's not possible without a host of people checking it regularly (the mods and one, then two dead ones do not form a host).
Understandable concern, but as it's been said, this thread has now something like 2500 views at 300 posts, the other one has 200 views at 30 posts. And I would really think the players here are mature enough not to peek at the dead thread! So I would leave that - I am also sure if anybody was doing that, they would confess. I mean, we are not little kids. I also saw the thread when it was put up, like tp said, but exactly there was this very well made announcement "if you are not dead, don't read further" with a huge empty space behind it, and that was enough of a sign for me not to scroll down.

So, yes, I assume everybody would do that (luotetaan itseemme!) and I think we can consider the matter closed.

And now as for really in-game-wise:
This actually makes me think very suspicious of Legate. After a lonf absence he decides to make this his point? Really? Someone with his brains and experience would have done differently being an ordinary innocent:Somehow I'm feeling this is not only about semantics... but let me make my understanding clear - and then you can judge the merit of this.

In a village, there are innocents and wolves. And then there are gifteds who are innocents but with a special role. At some time during the history of the WW in the 'Downs the cobblers were introduced, but they are counted as innocents as they are not wolves (the winning-tallies count the cobblers as innocents when calculating the winning conditions).

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.

Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

Gifteds and wolves are self-explicating.
However, that counts only if we are talking about the final count in the list (i.e. how many innocents vs. Wolves are there), but not when you are talking about somebody's role. Cobbler is by no means innocent. Honestly, I think you are just playing dumb, Nog, and playing with words. Like I said, I find it very likely that you are a Cobbler yourself. "Innocent", indeed.

Also the fact that you jump on me saying this. Had you been innocent (note: see the use of the word? I certainly mean to say "had you been ordo or gifted", not "ordo, gifted or cobbler", and that's how everybody uses this word, so please) and had you understood my post the way you claim you do (below), I think you wouldn't have minded it as much as to suddenly start suspecting me. You will correct me, yes. But not start kicking around like... erm... ghan-buri-ghan on stims. Or something like that. And you have been doing that a lot in this game. So, please.

But the real problem with Legate's post is not this. It is the fact he uses that false point as grounds of suspicion.

There may be different interpretations to the terms to be sure as there are different generations of werewolf-players around, but taking this kind of thing and stating it's "rubbish" and a reason to suspect someone feels pretty awkward, well plain evil.
My grounds for suspicion are all over your posts, not just this. It's been there since the beginning, like I have already said before. You immediately turn against everyone who says a single word about you and start suspecting them (just like you did now with me, see above), and sometimes even for less than that. This is a Cobblery behavior. An innocent does not jump against everybody who says something he doesn't agree with. And a Wolf knows better than to make such a fuss around himself, as it might just as well get him lynched. Ergo, what remains?

That all said, I do not want to lynch you, because it won't help anything. First, it will prevent us from the possibility of lynching a Wolf instead. Second, you will continue wreaking havoc in Mandos. Not willing to do it right now. I think for now, it is better to have you here.

Now I'm really baffled - and I mean in general terms and not just this game. I mean I have heard a lot of people (oftentimes wolves but not everytime) claiming I am aggressive, game after game. But I don't think myself being that. Now this is a really good example of it.

So how is that aggressive? Please tell me.
A comment just to this: honestly put, I don't think you generally are. But as for in this game, yes, you are (again, see above in this post - but I think it is explainable by your role, unless I am totally off about you, which I don't believe right now, so the question you put here in relation to the present is more like rhetorical).

All right. I am going to choose whom to vote probably from among the rest of people I suspect. There are a few others whom I think of as possible Cobblers, I would prefer to avoid them at least for the time being as well... let's take a look...

EDIT: x-ed with Glirdy, phantom, Fea, and the Moddess Herself

[the phantom]

(Three hours till... here's where I am.)

A big reason I'm so unwilling to commit to a Nog vote is the fact that right from the start of the day I sort of put my foot down and said, "I'll be darned if I'm going to be led down such an obvious path!" and that seems to be where we are. If this was the Wolves' plan and we followed it, I'll be entirely angry after the game.

BUT on the other hand it seems to me that the hand guiding us down the path has for the most part been Nog himself, as well as the trusted Agan, which eases my suspicions of a Wolf plot a bit. I really wonder if it's all on Nog now to determine his lynching. In other words, I'm hoping he'll do a false reveal that smells fishy thus making my choice an easy one. But if he doesn't, well... *grumble*... I suppose technically I'd still rather lynch Lommy, if anyone else is the least bit interested.

I'm not sure if I feel better today about Green or not. I'll probably have to determine that in a reread. I'm a bit annoyed by the low-posters. Boro bugs me still, but in a Cobblerish way, so he's not the top choice for me. And I also wonder about Mith as a Cobbler. I might view Daughter's opening post as suspicious if it had been made by someone I knew better.

Ang and Fea are both fine. Not as confidently, but I have also been liking Nerwen.

[Boromir88]

Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it. We've all played long enough together, I would think that alone would make everyone trustworthy enough stick to the rules. It's no different than the fact I trust living players aren't discussing the game, while the game is going on with eachother (unless allowed by the rules).

++Nog

I'll probably be back before the DL, but my mind's not going to change about this one today.

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.

There I was forceful and sounding threatening, but I did it to get an explanation from Greenie why she would have voted for Nessa today, over Nog or Mith, who to me so far have looked more dangerous today.

In the end, Greenie is the principled player who will make her own choices. And therefor I felt it was ok to twist her arm a bit to get answers as to why Nessa today.

[Glirdan]

Ummm, have Nessa or BeiGei made an appearance at all yet??

[the phantom]

Nessa is there with Wilwa and Sally- they've appeared briefly.

Blind hasn't been around at all. :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

I am not a wolf, I am not a cobbler. I have had a black dog day and was considering withdrawing but I am trying to get a grip because of how finely balanced the game is. It isn't due to anything said here more that I think I am having a slightly delayed reaction to the last 6 months of RL and too late have realised that this has been a bit ambitious. All a bit much...

[satansaloser2005]

Can I have a vote count please?


I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.


I'm sorry I can't be around; I'll post once more, maybe twice, but that'll be it. After toDay I'll have the ability to stalk the thread again. I'll vote in my next post, and explain more toMorrow.

[satansaloser2005]

Can I have a vote count please?


I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.


I'm sorry I can't be around; I'll post once more, maybe twice, but that'll be it. After toDay I'll have the ability to stalk the thread again. I'll vote in my next post, and explain more toMorrow.


ETA: Blind is probably going to get modfired. Let's not pay any attention to her. Catch active wolves.

[the phantom]

Ah, very sorry, Mith. I promise I won't gun for you today, if that makes any difference.

Sally! :eek:

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Lommy ++ Wilwa
Green ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Boro ++ Nog (3)

[Nogrod]

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.
I do agree and admit I hadn't thought of that bot-view thing. That might explain some of the numbers.

But at the same time I must say that at one time of the Day a few posts here seemed to have it like self-evident that people were peeking in there. And to that I protest.


Bah, I have been writing a post if that needs to be posted, but I was wawering whether that was a good idea or not, but now Boro's vote made it clear. I will send it in a short while...

And really Boro, voting me on the grounds that I voiced a general suspicion someone might peek at the dead-thread after a host of people had speculated on it and some had even given the air they had done it anyway or that it would be natural to do it?

I agree with Rikae that the trust is the key word, and what should guide us (and I'm ready for any mod-surveillance) but there's nothing to boost the trust than a threat of being caught... :)

I just plain disliked the speculation on "everyone has been there anyway"...



A post coming soon, to hopefully retrail the wagon.

[Glirdan]

Okay, I can't stand to wait any longer and will vote

++Nog

If anyone wants to see why, read post #303 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647952&postcount=303) for my reasoning. I really have to go.

[the phantom]

Hoo boy... That set-up sounds so suspicious. We'll see...

*waits for Nog*

[Boromir88]

I just plain disliked the speculation on "everyone has been there anyway"...


Fair enough, I took that from Ang, Agan, phantom...etc as minor joking at expressing the desire to so badly want to see the thread, but how they can't yet. Not as, "nah nah nah, I'm breaking the rules and looking at the game thread. Why aren't you? Everyone else is!"

And I still see nothing beneficial to come out and start insinuating we're all a bunch of cheaters, and if it's ever proven that people are cheating now they should be modfired, possibly banned. A sentiment I do agree with you on, but I don't think this is the time, nor place, to start insinuating there's a bunch of cheaters around, especially since you are familiar and met many of us here.

And really Boro, voting me on the grounds that I voiced a general suspicion someone might peek at the dead-thread after a host of people had speculated on it and some had even given the air they had done it anyway or that it would be natural to do it?

Oh Nog, you know full well that's not the only reason I have for voting you. You were most likely going to be my vote today, barring some unseen revelation of information, even before the "don't look at the dead thread" stuff. That just tipped you over to my, I'm extremely confident about my vote today. If I'm wrong, you have my apologies, but not as much as normal, since you can move onto to the desired next life. Shall I eat a toaster or something else this time?

[Nogrod]

Okay, most of this was made before I saw the situation on the thread right now, but it seems to be more or less accurate anyway... So I will just send it with few modifications and then add a few comments on a separate post.


So

I'm the seer.


~*~

Thank you Shasta.

Thank you Aganzir.

I love you both in the RL but will claim you partly responsible if we lose - just because you were too tied with your love-affair. That was important to you, I know, but not what made the game. You were so blind and wrong!

Sorry to say this, but you both made it to me impossibe to act any otherwise. And really Agan, you couldn't be that blind! I left you like hundred clues!!!

And props to you wolves & cobblers to brainwash many innocents to make this true. It seems we are going to try and fight this from Mandos then. You won the first round, let's see if we can fight back?

I hoped I could have had a few more dreams before going to Mandos (going there before the guys who could come back to inform you) but now it seems that the ranger can give me only one more - and that we have already lost one of our possible comebacks - and two innocents with it.

Like I said on D1, we need the ranger and the lovers to stay with us.

And then one of our lovers started both hinting he's a lover as a banter and then later panicked... No Shasta, that's not the way to play. I tried to say on D1 that the lovers should be hush-hush... but did you listen to that?

I hope the Ranger knows better to keep out of the fray and not jump like hundred meters if suspected by one person, and will on time deliver things to us.
Well, s/he's our only hope for any information now.

I myself thought I played it foolishly to reveal Agan's innocence that obviously on D1 after dreaming about her, but at the moment it seems that wasn't such a big mistake at all as no one paid attention to it, notr even Agan herself... *writes to self: next time a seer, hint more clearly as no one gets nothing anyway*


If the DL had been one that I could live with, I wouldn't be doing this but would try to see for surviving some other way. But sadly I can't stay awake to 6AM . So here we are.


So as it is what it is, and I can see what the wolves are doing, sadly, with the help of known innocents, and general idiotics.... I just feel I need to reveal now.



Agan is Beren indeed .

the phantom is a cobbler.

I'd appreciate one more dream of the living *nods towards the ranger*


ADD... and Boro looks really suspicious, as well as Legate, but back to them in a moment (Jesus , I just saw the time...)

[Nessa Telrunya]

Okay, I'm here and have read through the thread. All I have to say is wow, my head is seriously spinning right now. So much has happened that I have no idea where to look.

Legate, I know my vote was really bizarre, but I'll shamefully admit that it was a throwaway vote.

I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves. :D

Aaand, Nog seems to be ruffling everybody feathers, and the whole situation makes me upset. This is more "aggressive" than I've ever seen him in my admittedly small number of games with him, but he doesn't seem to think that of himself. However, the distrust of the other players looks odd. Just plain odd.

And the whole Shasta stuff makes sense to me. I don't know who I'll vote. It won't do any good to toss my vote like yesterDay, since it wouldn't affect the lynch, but I don't want a double-lynch. That leaves bandwagoning. :(

[satansaloser2005]

++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.


That's it from me, I'm afraid. Hopefully I'll still be around toMorrow to look at more.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hm. Believe him and go with my Glirdy vote?

Or think he's a wolf, that any counter reveals would only help his case (and put the 'real' seer in danger), and that he's trying to get the Ranger to switch protections from the Lover to the false-seer so that both Lovers are gone for good?

Grrrr.

I don't know what to think.

[Boromir88]

...and of course, with absolute no way to prove anything of what Nog claims.

*sigh* I'm really too grouchy to seriously think on this and don't look forward to the headache that's coming from it.

Agan and phantom are understandable choices for a Nog-seer, or any seer for that matter. And while I've also thought phantom was up to no good, I've continually felt worse about Nog after my first reaction.

Even with Shasta's death, I was telling myself not to buy "Nog is being set up argument" because Nog witnessed my wolf-pack to the exact same thing with Nessa-wolf in his game.

If you're the seer, Nog, you get the choice of what I have to eat. If a wolf or cobbler you be, to the death deserveth ye.

[wilwarin538]

So I just skimmed through, sorry I didn't come back when I said I would, I lost track of time and had to rush to work.

I was going to comment on a few random things, but then Nog posted. So I will focus on that.

I am inclined to believe him. This would be a rather crazy bold thing for a Wolf, or even a Cobbler to do, on only Day 2. And I can understand why he felt he had to reveal, what with the Lovers in the position they're in, and people seeming to want to vote for him. Now he'll be safe for toNight, and then he can dream of people as they die, and hopefully the Ranger lasts for a while and can provide us with a bunch of those dreams later on in the game (even if it's just dreams of dead players, that's still super useful, cause it'll be information that we can use to find connections between people).

So I believe him. And now I'm trying to figure out if we should bother killing Phantom? I'm inclined to not at the moment, he can't do much harm, so I would say we don't waste the lynch.

x'ed since Noggins

[the phantom]

Well thank you, Nogrod. I suspected something like that would be coming. My job is at least a bit easier. Now I merely have to decide whether you are Cobbler or Wolf.

The most obvious point speaking against your Seership is your lack of survival instinct. You know good and well that under this format there is no need for you to drop dream hints!! Even were I not a dream-victim there would be no way you could convince me that you would play in such a fashion. Under these rules the Seer is welcome to be very well hidden, as he cannot be legitimately "killed", as he is still able to reveal his dreams through Glorfy and Lovers even after death, and use his dreams to positively influence the outcomes in the Mandos thread.

Sorry, but-
1) Phantom is not a Cobbler.
2) Nog-Seer would not play as you have.

True Seer- do I even need to bother telling you not to counter-reveal? I have a guess at your identity, and I'm thinking that my instruction is needless, but just in case...

So- where does everyone else stand on this? I'm thinking that we almost have to lynch him now even though it bugs me that he could very well be nothing more than a Cobbler and thus he is completely fulfilling his purpose by being lynched.

[Loslote]

I'm here... :eek:

I'm rather inclined to believe Nog - I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted. I don't think he can say that Shasta played badly, though. We'll find out in Endgame why the wolves killed him, and until then, it doesn't do much good to say it was all Shasta's fault. I mean, if he was at least trying to determine which specific people would have noticed the hints, that'd be one thing, but as it is, I can absolutely see why he attracted votes like a magnet.

That being said, let's hope Nog dreams us up a wolf toNight.

I do not like the option of Wilwa as the alternative candidate for the lynch. I haven't seen nearly enough of her to form a solid judgement. TP's being a cobbler makes Lommy look better, which means I'm left with Boro as my top choice. I'd vote for someone else if it came down to it, but he strikes me as the most suspicious.

EDIT: xed since Nog

[Mithalwen]

Why don't we do the obvious thing ang vote Blind Guardian? Time is short they are apparently about to be modfired. We lose an opportunity to lyncha wolf but we buy a little more time?

[the phantom]

I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted.
That isn't my experience with him. This "meanness" you speak of fits nicely into my primary point about him- that for someone claiming to be a Seer he pretty much went the opposite direction when it came to survival tactics. His vote-attracting smacks of a Cobbler, and this false reveal (I realize that no one else can know it's false) also fits the mold.

[Loslote]

His vote-attracting smacks of a Cobbler, and this false reveal (I realize that no one else can know it's false) also fits the mold.

If he was trying to die, he was already well on his way there. He's already got, what, four votes? If dying was his goal, he just had to keep doing what he was doing. The Seer-reveal kept him alive for another Night, not doomed him.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So here's an amusing moment for the night...

We have to choose to believe either the phantom, or Nog.

:eek:

[the phantom]

But Lottie, it paves the way for him to continue serving a purpose once in Mandos. He's already assured his death in one fashion or another, and now the only missing component is having an angle to work after death. Now we see what it is.

Plus there's always the remote hope that there will be a counter-reveal, particularly if the true Seer is also on the chopping block and is put forward as a suitable replacement candidate. A Cobbler would be foolish to ignore that glorious possibility.

[the phantom]

Leaving for home now. Be back soon.

[Nessa Telrunya]

I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere.

So I hope I'm right.. :(

++the phantom

Because it's more likely than not that one of the two is a wolf-cobbler.

[Boromir88]

We have to choose to believe either the phantom, or Nog.


Ask me the next day if we're both alive, because my answer right now is "neither."

[Loslote]

But Lottie, it paves the way for him to continue serving a purpose once in Mandos. He's already assured his death in one fashion or another, and now the only missing component is having an angle to work after death. Now we see what it is.

Just like Fea suggested, you mean? But people already know that's an option. They won't trust him completely without proof. Dead people can vote to find out roles, right? So maybe they vote Nog, find out for sure if he's the seer or not. Especially if this:

Plus there's always the remote hope that there will be a counter-reveal, particularly if the true Seer is also on the chopping block and is put forward as a suitable replacement candidate. A Cobbler would be foolish to ignore that glorious possibility.

Happens as well. With two reveals, a supposed Cobbler!Nog would not have the automatic power in Mandos that you seem to assume.

EDIT: xed since the post I quoted

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ai, ai! You mean to kill me, do you, Nog?

All right, now. My first reaction was "okay, obvious bluff, he's a baddie in totally bad situation, what better can he do?" Now, then, I would've suggested to keep him alive: basically, reason no.1 - what I have said before, he's a Cobbler, right now better alive than dead, where he will just make a mess. Now there comes reason no.2 from the completely opposite perspective - if he really is the Seer, then of course we should keep him alive. However, once again considering all his posts before - with the arguments which I really think were totally off - I would like to lynch him more than ever. Or at least, well, I cannot trust him. And it all comes down to questions of Rangers, Lovers and all this.

Well. It must be said that the points about him behaving "mean" when being a Gifted are relevant. It is true that he acts that way as a Gifted, and I wouldn't put it past phantom to be a Cobbler either, and the dream choices would make sense too, but... really, this time, if I have to bet...

All right, in any case, I am against lynching him, that's enough. Either Seer or Cobbler - in any case, no reason to lynch him just as yet. And, well, let's see what dream he comes up with toMorrow.

For now, back to my old question: whom to vote, and then I should really go to sleep.

EDIT: x-ed since last Fea

[Nogrod]

My list then...

Boro: harped on everything willing to get me lynched. Read the posts and you see what I mean. His suspicions have been "twitter-impressions" (160 markers and nothing to say, really), my case for him is "fb-impressions" (a load more things to go with, if limited as wel).

Mith: her possible attempt to lounch a double lynch at the end of D1 makes me worried about her - even if I still love her and she despises me. Also her idea of lynching the BG is kind of dubious...

Greenie: looks really crafty and seems to vote like a baddie. I always suspect her, but I feel I'm not more wrong that I'm normally. She might be one of the wolves.

Glirdan: he looks very fishy but I'm not too sure. Might be just the oddness of him (meaning that our ideas don't oftentimes meet). Did I not suspect him that many times in thesegames he'd be my number one suspect, but knowing my leaning to suspect him I'm a bit reserved here.

Legate: I thought of him being oddly vague on D1 but toDay he looks more opportunistic than an ordinary innocent. I'm not positive of him being a wolf though.... rather a cobbler.

Lommy I'm drawn with between good and bad. What she says has been more or less reasonable and I know she has not had time to concentrate - but some points raised against her are not without merit. She is ambivalent against the normal measure.

Bleh, I see a host of people posting and I need to take a small break: back soon (OMG the time, but I just feel this matters now...)


*takes a break*



EDIT: x'd after Fea...

[Boromir88]

Well. It must be said that the points about him behaving "mean" when being a Gifted are relevant. It is true that he acts that way as a Gifted, and I wouldn't put it past phantom to be a Cobbler either, and the dream choices would make sense too, but... really, this time, if I have to bet...

And it's not just the choices, but he's identified phantom as a cobbler, which is I think more telling.

I imagine if wolf-Nog is trying a fake reveal to save himself, he would want to give the name of a wolf, and that way it would be more likely votes go against phantom, if Nog's reveal was believed. However, he says phantom's a cobbler, not exactly the sure-fire way to save himself if he's a wolf making a fake reveal.

[Mithalwen]

Right Nogrod and Fea. I did not try to get a double lynch. If you look at posts 170 and 174 I am torn between voting as I wished and risking a triple tie. I only vote when Manwe is ahead already and I don't have any more time to think with TP on my case to vote Lommy. You can pin a lot on me but that is totally spurious. As have been all the charges against me save that I am strung out which I will freely admit to.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Right Nogrod and Fea. I did not try to get a double lynch.

I could have been remembering wrong. I'll look later to see why I thought that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere.

So I hope I'm right.. :(

++the phantom

Because it's more likely than not that one of the two is a wolf-cobbler.

Hm, brilliant. Now if Nog is bad, this looked rather bad too. And, I mean, even if Nog is telling the truth, once again, it does not make much sense to lynch Cobbler at this point. So I don't see why immediately following and wishing to lynch phantom.

So, in fact, this might bring me even to vote Nessa once again. There is also Lottie, whose reaction I also was not very fond of. The trouble is, we have no way to verify who is lying and who is not right now. Okay, last thought and then I will vote. Honestly.

EDIT: x-ed with Mith and Fea

[Mithalwen]

OK well the time is seriously incompatible with the time I need to be up tomorrow so unless someone convinces m v quickly I shall vote for damage limitation and Blind Guardian.

[the phantom]

Boro- I think the main reason he identified me as a Cobbler rather than a Wolf was to keep anyone from knowing if he's telling the truth.

On the Dead-Thread we can check for Wolf or non-Wolf, but we can't check a Cobbler. When I die, there will be no Dead-Thread checking me for Cobblery. It can't be done. So there's no evidence to refute him.

Basically, if we lynch him today as we should, upon reaching Mandos he can cry about being wrongly lynched and possibly at some point in the future gain some sway somehow (perhaps out of pity). If he had identified me as a Wolf though- the game would be up as soon as I died, for I would upon arrival in the Dead-Thread immediately ask to have my role viewed.

[the phantom]

Way to go, Nessa. Another reason for me to love our low-posters. :rolleyes:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Nessa

I think I have said all as for what I think about whom people should vote or not... preferably not any possible Cobblers; otherwise, sufficient to say, seeing either of my general suspects go will be fine. But I have to really go to sleep now, so, vote well, folks... and really looking forward to toMorrow...

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[the phantom]

Lottie- I never assumed his power in Dead-Thread, but rather the possibility of power. No one can guarantee anything in this game, but one must try and leave open the possibility.

[Boromir88]

On the Dead-Thread we can check for Wolf or non-Wolf, but we can't check a Cobbler. When I die, there will be no Dead-Thread checking me for Cobblery. It can't be done. So there's no evidence to refute him.

Ah right, I didn't think about the whole cobbler's are going to be revealed as innocents. That certainly changes things and something Nog would definitely think about if having to make a fake reveal.

[Mithalwen]

Anyone have a vote tally?

[Rikae]

Lommy - Wilwa (Wilwa 1)
Greenie - Nog (Wilwa 1, Nog 1)
Agan - Nog (Nog 2, Wilwa 1)
Boro - Nog (Nog 3, Wilwa 1)
Glirdan - Nog (Nog 4, Wilwa 1)
Sally - Boro (Nog 4, Boro 1, Wilwa 1)
Nessa - Phantom (Nog 4, Boro 1, Wilwa 1, Phantom 1)
Legate - Nessa (Nog 4, Boro 1, Wilwa 1, Phantom 1, Nessa 1)

[the phantom]

Ah right, I didn't think about the whole cobbler's are going to be revealed as innocents. That certainly changes things and something Nog would definitely think about if having to make a fake reveal.
Precisely!

I believe this is the first time I've ever been in this sort of position before, where I'm the only person who can know the truth behind the reveal, and I can tell you it's probably the most maddening thing I've ever experienced. I mean- me telling you "I'm not a Cobbler!" just doesn't cut it despite the fact that it's the most important piece of info we have. :rolleyes:

And so I am left with my secondary argument-
The most obvious point speaking against your Seership is your lack of survival instinct. You know good and well that under this format there is no need for you to drop dream hints!! Even were I not a dream-victim there would be no way you could convince me that you would play in such a fashion. Under these rules the Seer is welcome to be very well hidden, as he cannot be legitimately "killed", as he is still able to reveal his dreams through Glorfy and Lovers even after death, and use his dreams to positively influence the outcomes in the Mandos thread.
Is that not an extremely obvious point, people?

Bleh.... If he gets away with this...

[Aganzir]

Agan is Beren indeed .
Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien. :p

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++Nog

I'm just going to push it through. He can yell at me post-game if he really is the seer, but I think his behavior up to and after his reveal screams sinister instead of seer. While I find it logical that a Seer-Nog would dream of Agan and the phantom, it doesn't mesh well with his earlier behavior and it's too easy to see those choices as, "I can say these and nobody has any power to deny it except for the true seer (hahaha!) or the phantom (who nobody believes anyway)!"

So yeah. Farewell, Noggles.

[the phantom]

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien. :p
Seriously?! You switched the roles of you and Shasta purposefully for the sake of having that sort of trap up your sleeve later?!

If so, then I could totally kiss you right now! :D

(If you weren't already taken, of course.)

(Or am I mistaking the meaning of the tongue-out smiley? Is that "ha ha I'm joking" or "ha ha gotcha"?"

[Nogrod]

I see some of you wish for proof...


And clearly we need some, looking at the votes at the moment... ?



Well if I was a wolf or a cobbler I might have done the following ones as well, but if you think of it, I wouldn't have hang myself to these if I was not the seer...

So here's some what I put there for good and bad (I really feel bad now making the first ones)

A short list of my feelings before the voting (short on explanations as I don't have time to write any longer analysis).

Innocent:
Aganzir - Good posting, innocent vibes, feels like she's trying to find the answers that are for the benefit of the village.

Innocentish:
the phantom - Generally makes good points a wolf might not wish to make, it's just that a few of them do not let me pick him into category above.
Anguirel - Seems getting the idea of our good and makes posts a wolf-Ang probably wouldn't.
Mith - For her comment on Legate (and for that familiar annoyance against anything I say... if she were a wolf she would be nicer to me ).

Could go either way:
Legate - Seems too happy to jump on some things I do disagree, but on the other hand hasn't said or done anything really suspicious.
Lommy - Basically seems to have the hang of it but has the air of avoiding things or, well, what some others have said, over-stating things. Smething says I should not trust her but on the other hand I find nothing clear-cut wrong.
Nerwen - Like someone said before: both clearly up to the situation but still mainly just bantering (was online only relatively early on the Day so that might be understandable).

Slightly worried:
Boro - the way he jumps on someone (yes, me) trying to turn the discussion on a more fruitful ground by saying it's "spinning things for my purposes" (so you should read they are bad) and after being questioned about that by some others, changing his point into me being a pessimist (which wasn't the point of my message) and thus suspicious? Odd, from him.


Of others I have not much to say. But will probably vote for one of them others.Clearly separating Agan from others here but of course not saying she's a lover as that would have ben damming - and I felt bad afterwards making her this clearly innocent from others as I realisedc how terrible it would bre if the wolves realised I was the seer and thus I would have compromised the lovers. It's a minor comfort to me they picked the lover the other way around... but I do keep banging my head on he keabaorad for making that so evident in a game like this.

When it started looking bad and I needed to get to sleep, I felt I was forced to make this post (beginning of which is here: As time here passes away, I need to sleep and can't fight back against this bad idea spreading. So just read what I've said and make wise choises.

Agan - even if I think her innocent - on the contrary makes hasty choices. It is a debatable point whether we should lynch the "quiet" or "under-radar types" here or not. I do think they are easier to find out about in Mandos than here as it will be obvious some of the more active ones will end up there anyway. But as I said, the merits are relative.I still insisted Agan was innocent even if she ran for me, but the more important thing on this occasion is the bolded part.

Re-organise the words from the "AS TIME HERE" - it is easily turned into "I AM THE SEER".

An odd way to start a paragraph: "As time here passes away, I need to sleep" but normal enough that no one pays attention if not looking for it.


And to anyone willing to suspect my points, how could I have guessed Agan was innocent with that certitude and so unwilling to come more particular with it (telling I had the lover would have been a disaster!!!)? I did even say that I would not suspect her even if she was coming at me with full frontal attack toDay - before she decided to reveal her role.


I liked many of tp's points on D1 but something bugged me there, thus I dreamt of him last Night and found out he is a cobbler.

If the ranger helps me, I can take two more dreams in. I checked this. I can dream of anyone I wish when I'm alive when I fall asleep.

So I dream toNight being protected (hopefully), and if you will not lynch me on the next Day I can dream of a living person even if I get killed then the next Night. So moving to Mandos I'll have the dream of N4 and may be then continue the fight from there.


So whom should I pick?

And bah, whom shoiuld I vote toDay? Soo late the day...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien. :p

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that makes me feel way better about the vote I just cast.

[Anguirel]

I've been away on a fairly riotous evening, but I'm back, I've read the thread, and I think I understand it. Good old Werewolf. Bad old sleep.

I developed a hearty suspicion of Thinlomien after her Wilwa vote; it seemed to fit a pattern, of sniper action against the taciturn. That was of course before the next round of revelations.

Nogrod vs phantom eh. I do have a very decided view on this. But for some reason my internal workings are ordering me to keep it to myself till I vote at whatever I deem the most utilitarian time. That's pretty odd for me - I don't usually keep secrets or my own counsel - and the feeling is so strong I feel impelled to stick it a little longer.

My impression is that Nogrod is still a long way ahead votewise; is that true? (Yes it is. Just seen below)

I trust Mith and would like to extend some non game affection if that's allowed, or frankly even if it's not, but I agree the Blind Guardian thing seems like a sideshow

I think I was understood (perhaps wilfully?) over the Lovers issue. I believe Aganzir in case there was any doubt of that

[elronds_daughter]

Dear me. I don't like any of this at all. Nog, the seer?!? What? Gah. He could very well be being truthsome, and tp etc. ganging up on him to distract. Or he could be trying to fool us all into going after tp, which people will undoubtedly be willing to do, considering phanty's verbosity. I simply don't know which faction is right. Both of them have been pinging my "uh-oh" radar. I may abstain today if this goes on much longer.

[Mithalwen]

Actually I know I am very out of touch but I don't see that the dream choices are particularly plausible. Phantom is an obvious early choice but either Shasta was top priority or he chose Night 2 someone who wasn't really under the gun. And who was the conveniently dead "known".

[Anguirel]

And I was late for loads more important stuff there...

...I feel a bit silly. I trusted Nogrod, not phantom, though I wasn't willing to spit that thirty seconds ago. For him to be telling the truth now would involve a conspiracy of at least two wolves, wouldn't it? (Or could a clever cobbler get on board? Wait.)

The order of events -

Aganzir revelation
Nogrod bandwagon
Nogrod revelation
Aganzir's trap...

no, there's no way Nogrod's telling the truth, is there. Logical bind. His sincerity relies on Aganzir being Beren. Aganzir would only lie about being Luthien were she a wolf or cobbler.

Brilliant. Artistic. Best stroke of play involving a lover I've ever seen, and I was a damn good one

(By the way, Fea, wolves can kill wolves. As a Lover-Wolf I was faced with a lone wolf-Wolf, Gurthang; we voted to kill each other and both died, village won)

so, I would conclude this by voting Nogrod. But weird things keep happening. I withhold my vote in case of later events, for now...

[wilwarin538]

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien. :p

This is the bestest thing ever. :D

[Nogrod]

Oh my... Don't forget Fea... That was near decisive.

Some others who voted for me might be wolves (and I think there are one or two), but she had most of the info and still went that way.

Remember also that the wolves don't get caught in this game for making those evil decisions.


Well, I will fight for this from the other side of the thread if I'm sent there (if I feel you guys deserve my effort there), but you know losing the seer means that I can only try to help you with indirect things - and only with the ranger (if s/he dies at a proper time) I can really help you.



Up to you.

Boro and Fea top my list right now and I'd be ready to vote either. I know phantom is the cobbler so let's not waste the votes on him. Even if I'd love to play with him in Mandos... :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Nogrod- all that your long post tells me is that you are a good prepared Cobbler and that you planned ahead for the possibility of helping your side with a false reveal. If I had been assigned that role it is precisely what I would've done.

Everyone pay attention to this next bit-

About your Agan dream- YOU EASILY COULD HAVE ALSO LEFT A CODED HINT ABOUT HER SPECIFIC ROLE IF YOU SO CHOSE!!! But I guess you didn't. Why? Because you didn't know.

And once again I put forth that there's no way I would ever believe you'd be anything other than completely guarded as a Seer with a set-up like this. The idea that you were hinting to us on Day 1 is something no one should swallow, especially if you knew your dream target was so valuable!!

[Aganzir]

I am disappointed.

I was looking forward to an ingenious saving attempt...

[Mithalwen]

I am more inclined to beleive Agan. Coded messages have been used often enough for a wily baddie to slip one in as a reserve but the switch is...a failsafe. I did think it odd it was that way around but assumed just luck of the draw,

Ang thanks. affection appreciated without prejudice in game.

[wilwarin538]

...I feel a bit silly. I trusted Nogrod

.......

so, I would conclude this by voting Nogrod. But weird things keep happening. I withhold my vote in case of later events, for now...

Ditto for me on both of those. I was inclined to believe Nog too, but it seems pretty obvious he's not the Seer (and Agan is my hero). But yeah, considering how much just happened in such a short time I feel like waiting for a bit.

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Lommy ++ Wilwa
Green ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Boro ++ Nog (3)
Glird ++ Nog (4)
Sally ++ Boro
Nessa ++ Phantom
Legate ++ Nessa
Fea ++ Nog (5)

Question- aimed primarily at those I am inclined to trust at the moment (Agan, Ang, & Fea). Is there any reason I shouldn't go ahead and vote Nog at this point?

[Mithalwen]

Oh blimey I was so going to bed now..I was watching a rubbish film and missed the end... my teddy may have slipped in to a coma and I am freezing but this has got interesting. Oh well I am not driving and I can mainline arabica in the morning...

[Anguirel]

the switch is...a failsafe. I did think it odd it was that way around but assumed just luck of the draw,


and I too thought "gender bending! wow, how casually socially liberal Werewolf is! Maybe I should get my stepmother into it", but thought it was too politically incorrect to comment...which was lucky...

I look pretty bad now, don't I? I saved wolf-features yesterday. Looks like my long awaited holiday on the hither shore might come soonish...

So funny that this game means that Nogrod will now have to lie consistently for about a week, like Tony Blair in the last months of circa 2003 or something...

[wilwarin538]

Actually, I'm getting really tired, so I'm just gonna go for it.

++Nog

[Anguirel]

phantom, chill out till it's nearly four, or eleven as you Yanks eccentrically call it. It'll be more ritually satisfying, and will absolutely torture the wolves

[Nogrod]

Everyone pay attention to this next bit-

About your Agan dream- YOU EASILY COULD HAVE ALSO LEFT A CODED HINT ABOUT HER SPECIFIC ROLE IF YOU SO CHOSE!!! But I guess you didn't. Why? Because you didn't know.It's actually very rewarding to catch the phantom from making an intentionally bad argument to prove one's point... :) Just love it.

Think of it again, tp, if you were the seer and dreamt of a lover on N1, would you make a hint of any kind that you have a lover (which means losing two innocents if the baddies find out about it)? That dream is called nightmare from the seer's POV.

Sorry, bad call my friend... :)

But even if you manage to lynch me like it seems to go, I do love the fact I got a few things right.

[Mithalwen]

Oh we have moved on from the days when the possibility of same sex lovers cause massed attacks of the vapours from people who didn't seem at all bothered by the prospect of incestuos ones :rolleyes: I am now tempted to ask all sorts of impertinent questions about your step ma but I shall quench my curiosity.

[the phantom]

Think of it again, tp, if you were the seer and dreamt of a lover on N1, would you make a hint of any kind that you have a lover?
No. I didn't say "hint". I said "CODED HINT".

Huge difference.

A code is something that will not be found but can be pointed to later in order to establish truth. In this game the Seer would be smart to leave codes rather than hints. The point is to be able to prove your identity without calling any attention to yourself beforehand.

You, however, did the opposite, and left hints but not the necessary code.

[Anguirel]

That doesn't make any sense Nogrod. But it sounds a bit like the whinnying I heard the night our horses were shredded. They were a courageous breed, though, and I reckon you're scareder

[Aganzir]

Okay.

I actually am Beren. I was writing an angry post in response to Nog's revelation where I would have expressed my regret about not having said I was Lúthien, and I realised it wasn't too late and I could actually still try it.

If Nog was the real seer, he would have said: "Heh I happen to know you're not her, can you trust me now?"
Instead he totally ignored my comment (yes it would've been hard to come up with an acceptable explanation).

I think the phantom can vote safely.

So yeah gender-bending indeed. We had a cross-dressing night in the last large Downer gathering I attended. ;)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh we have moved on from the days when the possibility of same sex lovers cause massed attacks of the vapours from people who didn't seem at all bothered by the prospect of incestuos ones.

My vapours, my vapours they are acting up!

Question- aimed primarily at those I am inclined to trust at the moment (Agan, Ang, & Fea). Is there any reason I shouldn't go ahead and vote Nog at this point?

Well, in my case I voted Nog before Agan posted (okay, technically after, but it was a cross post), so as you can tell, I was following my own judgment that said not to trust him, and that was validated by further events (ie: Agan, who we'd already decided to basically trust due to the fact that we'll know tomorrow if she's lying, so it wouldn't make sense for her to lie).

Also, I suspect that if Agan was lying about the lover thing, there would have been a much more exaggerated spate of Dead Thread posts in which Shasta spazzed out one way or another.

So basically, I would cast your vote for Nog.

But I'd also like to see you... you know... form your own opinion instead of basing your decisions on what others tell you. It's not like I know any more than anybody else.

[the phantom]

++ Nogrod

I really need to eat. Nothing since noonish.

Best of luck in the night- especially you, Glorfy.

[Anguirel]

...I mean, deviousness is quite a fun survival mechanism, but you young uns seem to use it as baroque titillation...

[Anguirel]

Also, I suspect that if Agan was lying about the lover thing, there would have been a much more exaggerated spate of Dead Thread posts in which Shasta spazzed out one way or another.


Yeah! Great point. You see kids, that slightly sad hopeless Adam and Eve staring through locked gate attitude to the Dead Thread is useful after all...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Yeah! Great point. You see kids, that slightly sad hopeless Adam and Eve staring through locked gate attitude to the Dead Thread is useful after all...

DNA was discovered because it cast a shadow. Just because I can't look at the thing (the contents of the dead thread) doesn't mean I can't look at the shadow (who posted, how many times, and when).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Which is, by the way:

Shasta 29
Manwe 12
Rikae 9
Mac 1

[Nogrod]

Wilwa as well?

Oh my.


Heh, it seems I have a chance to not go somewhere a lot of people crave to go? :D


Okay. If someone wishes for two more dreams, then change this voting pattern.

[Anguirel]

Another great asset is that phantom looks golden - but if the wolves kill him, Nogrod will be a pariah in the Dead Thread. Now it's the wolves who have to make the tough calls...

[Rikae]

Um, Fea, maybe posting the links to the posts is a bit much?

Edit: Ah, I see you've taken them out already.

[Loslote]

Oh dear. Now my head is all spinny. Clever Agan. :p

++Nog

Because, even if he turns up Cobblerian rather than Wolfish, it's better than an innocent (and I'm sure you can gather which version of 'innocent' I meant). ;)

EDIT: xed since Ang

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Another great asset is that phantom looks golden - but if the wolves kill him, Nogrod will be a pariah in the Dead Thread. Now it's the wolves who have to make the tough calls...

Oh, but can you imagine the bickering that would go on between the two of them once dead? :Merisu:

[Anguirel]

oh Nowgli, as the Americans pithily put it, shut up already

++NOGROD

I tried but I just couldn't resist a second longer

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Um, Fea, maybe posting the links to the posts is a bit much?

Edit: Ah, I see you've taken them out already.

I hit copy/paste and didn't realize I was linking to the posts until I submitted the reply. All better.

[Anguirel]

(oh Fea, we're going to have such fun when they kill us!)

[Loslote]

[If you think you don't need me, then play without me.


But if you're the Seer, you could still help. That's sort of the point of the Dead Thread. The Seer can still dream of the dead people. That's rather helpful, too.

EDIT: xed since my last

[Aganzir]

It's sad I know things to help you and could help you.
Aww Nog, 'tis sad. Maybe you shouldn't have ignored my reveal #2... :p

I'm tempted to stay here till the deadline but it won't make a difference because I know who's going to die and his role isn't revealed anyway, so it's probably bedtime for me. (Ehehe it's almost 6. :D)

Shasta & Mänwe: I'm pretty sure Nog is a cobbler, but it might be good to confirm it, just in case. But if you think Mänwe's alignment is more useful information for us, I'm all for it.

[Anguirel]

sigh. He probably is just a cobbler isn't he. Still, he's an extremely hobnailed one

[elronds_daughter]

Abstaining. At this point om not going to change the outcome, and I don't think I can condone either side. Sorry, all.

[Mithalwen]

Well lets hope he is a wolf because (and in the light of events my idea wasn't such a good one as I thought at the time) we are also losing BG for good or ill most like.

++Nogrod

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Dear Dead Thread: I'd kind of like to know Manwe's role, since Shasta's will be confirmed for us soon, and based on that we'll pretty much know Nog's.

Kthxg'night.

[Nogrod]

So remember guys, the phantom is a cobbler

You will lose Agan anyway.



You should think how easily people voted toDay... who initiated, who followed and how?

Boro, Mith, Ang, Greenie - people you should be wary of...

[Nogrod]

You've just lost the lovers and the seer. Lynch the ranger next. Really... :(

[Rikae]

Cold and lonely was the day for Beren Camlost (apart from the occasional heated argument with the Elves), and he longed for the company of his sweet Tinúviel. Yet she was gone, not to return for many an age. In his tormented dreams Beren pleaded to Mandos, the Lord of the Dead, bid him to let Lúthien stay with him just one more day, and it seemed to him as if the Vala was answering him:

"Thingol's daughter indeed shall return to the living and remain with you and your companions for one more day. But then you both shall return to my halls to dwell here until your spirits are healed."

"In the meantime, your love and her fellow dead wish to give to you, as a sign of their trust, to have your vote doubled in your quest to slay the evil that has beset you."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the day progressed, no clear bandwagon emerged... there was no one person, it seemed, who looked particularly evil, no one person on whom many could agree; Boromir, Wilwa, phantom and Nessa each received one vote, while nine elves pointed to Nogrod. Tension was high. The lynch hung by a thread.

"As time here..." Nogrod began, then coughed: "I mean, I am the seer. Aganzir is indeed Beren. phantom is a phabbler."

"No, I'm not Beren - I'm Lúthien!" laughed Aganzir, pulling off her false beard.

Nogrod contined to stare fixedly in the other direction, mumbling something about helping from the halls of Mandos.
"He's lying! Kill him!" shouted the others. Not nine, but ten arrows struck the bewildered looking Nogrod in the
back. The tenth was Aganzir's, and it could be argued that it was absolutely essential.

Nogrod fell to his knees, blood trickling from the corner of his mouth. "You will have to beg me to reveal my dreams!" he
cried.

"Actually, I was Beren all along" Aganzir added, pulling off his false chin and revealing a beard. "Not that it matters."

When the company turned back toward their campsite, they noticed that one of their number was missing without a trace.
Perhaps Blind Guardian had also gone to Mandos; time would only tell if her voice would be heard there.


The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shasta
Nogrod
Blind Guardian

Night 3 has begun. Nocturnal people, be active.

Note: Blind Guardian has been modfired; however, I have made the unilateral modly decision to re-assign her
role. One of you will be receiving your new role by PM toNight.

[Macalaure]

The night of sleep the Elves got after a day of stressful debate was wholesome, except for one of them. They woke up to see the green fields stained red and covered with the bits and pieces of one of their own. The Elves looked around to see any sign of which one of them met this gruesome fate, but could not find anything that even vaguely resembled Elvenkind anymore. At last they looked at each other: It was Fea who was missing.

------------------------

But all dread was swiftly forgotten as the most fair and graceful being of all Middle-earth walked amongst them once more. Shasta had returned from the dead, to bring back light and hope for all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-chQ94GqUM). They joy of Shasta and Aganzir was more than words can say. The Elves' hearts were lifted and ears opened to hear the tale of the dead that Shasta was going tell them.


The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwa538
Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Shastanis Althreduin


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil


Nightly activites are to stop. The posting may begin again.

[the phantom]

Before I even begin to delve into the new day, first things first...

Shasta- what's it like down there? Anything funny or interesting to tell?

[Aganzir]

So darling, what news from Mandos? :Merisu:

It's awfully late so I'm not going to start posting now except to let you know I probably won't be around during the first half of the day.

I am interested in the reactions to Nog's reveal, especially after I claimed to be Lúthien, but that will have to wait.

Also, if we want to come up with a way to send information from Mandos to here, it would be a good idea to do it today.

[the phantom]

Since the dead can read this thread but can't post any responses...

Good riddance, Fea! :p

[Mithalwen]

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..

[Aganzir]

Shasta had returned from the dead, to bring back light and hope for all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-chQ94GqUM).
Yay for the song! :D I thought about quoting it yesterday but decided to go with the Lay of Leithian.

By the way, we can probably assume that whatever BG might have been, she's now an ordo. I'm not sure if it's against the point of the game, but I think it would be fair to know if she was a wolf (because it would mean an innocent just turned into one).

Oh and I also wonder about Fea's death. I can think of one reason she might have been killed off the top of my head, but will have to go through her posts first.

[Glirdan]

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..

I can't say that I entirely agree with you on this. The player in me agrees with you and says that it wouldn't be necessary, but the Mod in me says that it would, just to keep the mechanics of the game running smoothly or to keep everything balanced. However, the Mod in me is also saying that the Moddess Goddess may have said that just to keep us guessing. So again anything is possible.

But seeing as BeiGei has not posted once, we have no way to assume anything and I believe it is a waste of time and effort to even try when we have Shasta back from the dead to help us clarify other things that need clarifying.

[the phantom]

Yeah, the Blind thing could prove to be a problem. If she was a Wolf, well, then that means it's possible the positive feelings we've gained towards someone up until this moment are now worthless. If she was Gifted, then perhaps someone that was playing not particularly carefully now has a big reason to stay alive, and perhaps behavior change will cause them to be spotted. The situation is definitely annoying... But what else could the Mods do?

Today was my day to do piles of schoolwork, and thus I haven't done a readthrough of yesterday, so don't expect a fresh spurt of analysis from me to lead off the day. I wish I could, but time, you know.

I'll do my best to check in again in a bit and again in the morning, but I probably won't be able to give much serious contribution until late in the afternoon.

[the phantom]

No posts at all? Well, this was a pointless check in.

Bed now. I'll try my best to be around in the second half of the day.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, from what I know....




:p




Manwe was not a wolf. (I'm posting from my phone, sorry for lack of bold.)


Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote. He was trying to convince me that he's the Seer, by saying that he just failed to notice Agan's trick and all the posts that came after referencing it (and there are quite a few, I made a list, including Nogrod's own posts interspersed in.) so I believe Nog to be a Nobbler.

More later. Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.

[Nerwen]

My dearest! You've returned! Come to my– oh wait, I'm going to have to duel Agan, now, aren't I?

I am interested in the reactions to Nog's reveal, especially after I claimed to be Lúthien, but that will have to wait.
I might have a look at that myself.

Also, if we want to come up with a way to send information from Mandos to here, it would be a good idea to do it today.
You mean using the double-vote choice as a sort of code? It's hard to think of a way that would actually be workable– especially it seems there's now at least one cobbler in Mandos.

Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.
Cobblers have the same alignment as wolves. If you were thinking along these lines (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647936&postcount=293), well, um, don't. I mean that was just Nobbler doing his job. All the same, I don't think what Rikae told you has to mean that, my heart– couldn't it equally refer to an ordo becoming a gifted?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..
I would agree with that. Very often the Mods just scratch people if they don't have any important role. The problem is not that we don't know what BG was, the problem is now that we don't know who the person who has changed is. As it's been said, there are the two previous Days of the person's posting which now are somewhat less reliable when it comes to determining the person's role.

Manwe was not a wolf. (I'm posting from my phone, sorry for lack of bold.)
Good, I knew I was right about him. I think that means he is innocent. (I really don't think he was a Cobbler.)

Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote. He was trying to convince me that he's the Seer, by saying that he just failed to notice Agan's trick and all the posts that came after referencing it (and there are quite a few, I made a list, including Nogrod's own posts interspersed in.) so I believe Nog to be a Nobbler.
I'd assume the same, even given his behavior late yesterDay. But then I really think it was a waste to lynch him, what I was saying: now we are not going to learn for sure whether he was a Wolf or Cobbler, resp. innocent (Seer) or Cobbler, in case Cobblers count as just "non-Wolves" in Mandos. For that matter, I really think that also among those who urged for voting him, there might be Wolves/Cobblers (for the reason stated above - that's of course ruling out the unlikely possibility that if he indeed was the Seer, or the WWs thought he was, then of course the WWs would have also liked to vote him, even more). Sadly, I don't have much time toDay, but I will try to check at least the votes if I can. Okay, at least for now, the people who voted for Nog:
Before his Seer-revelation:
Greenie
Agan
Boro
Glirdan
After his Seer-revelation (now those are the ones I would definitely put under close examination, since from now on, if you voted against Nog, you basically assumed that he was a Cobbler - unless somebody proves me they thought otherwise - which, I believe, does not make much sense)
Fea
wilwa (whose vote, just from skimming through, looks more innocent to me in the sense that she was "tired" and all that)
Phantom (this one I don't like, as he was urging it really purposefully, whereas an innocent should at least ponder that it does not have much of a sense to lynch Cobbler, that's exactly what they are here for)
Lottie (who actually joined the process only a bit later, she originally did not seem very eager)
Ang (actually I am really curious about him - he initially wanted to support Nog, but only after Agan's "I am Beren/no Lúthien" thing he changed his mind, because, well, it was obvious)
Mith (the last nail)

From my other goals, I would like to take a look at those I have neglected this far as well, like Nerwen as I wanted earlier. elra's comment about Nog's revelation also looks a bit curious, need to check her too.

More later. Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.
Well, that could of course be also that BG was a Gifted. Especially with the "same alignment" thing. But whatever...

Sadly, now I don't have time to look at the possible reasons for Fea's death nor anything else. I'm not sure how much time I am going to have toDay, and I might be able to appear only very late in the Day, or very briefly during the time... I'll try my best.

[Mithalwen]

Alignment is not the same as vote count. As a former mod myself who has faced these dilemmas in at least 2 games I know how hard it is to do and be fair -especially if you have debated pre-game about the fairest balance. Now in this game it is quite "ethical" to upgrade a cobbler to a wolf because they are same alignment and have been playing with the same aim albeit perhaps using different approaches. Nevertheless it doesn't require a volte face if an innocent were changed cursed style.

I am a bit wary of speculating the other way obviously... if BG were the hunter no real harm done, if Glorfindell well it is a pity we missed a couple of nights protection but there is no guarantee of a "save" if the true seer - since all evidence points to Nogrod having been a bit more than economical with the truth as well as OT &E. Well that is a bit of a bummer but we could be worse off since at least we know mostly about the dead and our revenants.

[Anguirel]

Fea's death makes the broadly pro-phantom side of yesterday's debate look even better, I think, right?

Interesting that no one tossed a hair when Mith brought up the likelihood of some trouble involving Blind Guardian yesterday (there was a practically audible collective response of "yeah, whatever") and now a lot of people are talking about nothing else. All because of Rikae's rather dramatic footnote? It seems to me preeetty exaggerated as a line of enquiry.

I suspected Fea a bit though I never had the heart to want her dead because she was one of those lovely reminders of my retirement home days. Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler. Surely her shoemaking techniques would've been flashier

I must say, though, I can't really endorse the advice she gave before she died. I would have much rather settled this Nogrod issue than found out about Manwe. I do think we're right, but the possibility of not being so is so awful...and the Lovers don't, after all, prove the case either way. It would just be source of way greater reassurance to me (and I think many of us)

On the other hand, I do think the signs are in our decision's favour. Nogrod's extreme fit of pique as he went down even looks a bit like an attempt to replicate Shasta's earlier one, which won him such widespread sympathy...

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if any wolves were around endgame last night they weren't going to go for my damage limitation exercise if BG were their absent comrade.

[Anguirel]

I want a bit more gossip on (you guessed it) the Dead Thread. Don't be shy, fair Luthien; what's going on in there? Are there any weird twists you're allowed to tell us about? What's the line-up, who are the duellists and why? Is everyone sticking to their old story?

[Nerwen]

After his Seer-revelation (now those are the ones I would definitely put under close examination, since from now on, if you voted against Nog, you basically assumed that he was a Cobbler - unless somebody proves me they thought otherwise - which, I believe, does not make much sense)
Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?

I really do need to have a look at the votes yesterDay. I'm quite pressed for time, though.

[Mithalwen]

I want a bit more gossip on (you guessed it) the Dead Thread. Don't be shy, fair Luthien; what's going on in there? Are there any weird twists you're allowed to tell us about? What's the line-up, who are the duellists and why? Is everyone sticking to their old story?

A bit more talking of any kind would be nice. I mean I know this is a day of rest but I am worried given that there seem to be a lot of quiet people - including some I remember as being noisier. Going ot check if stats back up my imaginings..

[Anguirel]

You're right Mith. Quite busy and exhausted myself, maybe that's a general problem. But I certainly went off for brunch expecting to come back to more action than this...

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

Whenever I've successfully caught wolves it's been to do with their actions and reactions towards each other. The focus so far has tended to be on individuals rather than dynamics and potential triumvirates. We need to up the pace, we really do, but I kind of want to put my head under the duvet with radio 3 playing gently in the background etc.

[Mithalwen]

You might as well dear, I doubt there will be much more going on for a bit.. the surviving Eastern European contingent are quiet.. small hours for Nerwen, don't know hwere everyone is but suspect stateside, so since it is too cold ot garden I will have a crack at a serious review of past days and see if I have anything significant when it islivelier. Or make marmalade. ;) We could be in for another late one.. so a nap now might be a good tactical move.

Oh and it is quiet - I thought I had been quieter than usual and certainly I err towards many short posts than epic tomes but I have about 10% of the post count..

[Boromir88]

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

Hey now that's only on Wednesdays. :p

I've reeled back my posting since we've last played. I found myself griping all the time about how many pages there were to read, but I was one of the biggest contributors to the page count. :rolleyes: Hopefully, since your return and seeing my vocalness down, you see that my vigor and passion isn't gone? If it is then maybe a temporary hiatus would be in order after this game is up.

I was on last night to see Fea had been killed. Maybe I could have posted something, but I wanted to finish some important non-game related reading and by the time I was done it was passed midnight. All I would have said was something like...

Aww, have fun with death Fea. Don't argue with Nog too much, because if I ever die I don't want to have to read 8 bajillion pages and also try to keep up with the posting of two threads.

I didn't think that'd be much of a useful contribution, so decided it was bed time. For Fea's death, I can't say I'm really all that shocked. Usually she hangs around for a while because she can be a distraction, but with Agan most likely getting Glorfindel's protection, the wolves went for someone who wasn't getting suspected at all, and who may have been a major pain.

Although, I was not getting seer vibes from Fea at all, I mean she did tell phantom don't ask for her opinion, I don't know anymore than anyone else. I was getting the standard, I don't care what happens on Day 1, but I'm an innocent vibes from Fea. If Nog's a cobbler, I can't see the wolves seriously buying his seer reveal, and therefor I would think they would still be gunning for the seer each night.

By the end Nog was basically just launching off suspicions of anyone who was suspecting him and/or not believing his reveal. So I don't know why you'd say Fea's death makes phantom look better. If Nog's a wolf, than I think phantom is most likely innocent. However, if Nog was the cobbler, than to me, it doesn't say anything about phantom's alignment. It would help me out a lot to know Nog's role. I'm sure of one thing, he's not the seer, nor was he innocent.

[Boromir88]

Nothing else going on?

Ok, shower, food and hopefully that is enough motivation to be more productive.

By the end Nog was basically just launching off suspicions of anyone who was suspecting him and/or not believing his reveal. So I don't know why you'd say Fea's death makes phantom look better. If Nog's a wolf, than I think phantom is most likely innocent. However, if Nog was the cobbler, than to me, it doesn't say anything about phantom's alignment. It would help me out a lot to know Nog's role. I'm sure of one thing, he's not the seer, nor was he innocent.

As far as this, I should clear up that I'm in no way interested in voting for the phantom today or even if we did find out about Nog's role. That's outloud thinking that simply because Fea died and Nog looked evil, doesn't mean phantom looks better, or I'm not understanding how he looks better.

My main focus today will be those who seemed over-eager to believe Nog's reveal and suddenly try to get things turned around to not lynch him.

[elronds_daughter]

As far as this, I should clear up that I'm in no way interested in voting for the phantom today or even if we did find out about Nog's role. That's outloud thinking that simply because Fea died and Nog looked evil, doesn't mean phantom looks better, or I'm not understanding how he looks better.

I agree with you on this. phantom still seems fishy, but not to the point of being wolfish. There are much better targets to be examined than him.

Reading over yesterDay...shall be back later to voice more opinions.

[Thinlómien]

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

[Nerwen]

Pre-reveal votes:

++Wilwa

I'm aware this is not the most reasoned of all votes, but call it a gut-feeling. Read her post where she quotes Boro. It's just somehow smug, the tone, she gives the impression that she is slightly less confused than the rest of us, which she would be if she only entered the game after nice Nightly briefing by her pack. Also, the wolves have more reason to enjoy the confusion than us, because after all, their objective is just to slaughter while we really need to watch out for what we're shooting at.


++ Nog

Since I figured a Nessa vote would be pretty much a throwaway. A bad premise, but that's it.
Note: had been suspicious of Nogrod earlier, but more so of Nessa. Is change connected with this post of Boro's (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647900&postcount=269), where he threatens her with elevation to "Swarm of Killer Bees" if she votes Nessa? In this post, Boro is intent on pushing Nog, phantom and Glirdan as the only choices.


++NOGROD

I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option.


Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it. We've all played long enough together, I would think that alone would make everyone trustworthy enough stick to the rules. It's no different than the fact I trust living players aren't discussing the game, while the game is going on with eachother (unless allowed by the rules).

++Nog


Okay, I can't stand to wait any longer and will vote

++Nog

If anyone wants to see why, read post #303 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647952&postcount=303) for my reasoning. I really have to go.


Nogrod's Seer-reveal (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647980&postcount=322) and reactions to it.

Aaand, Nog seems to be ruffling everybody feathers, and the whole situation makes me upset. This is more "aggressive" than I've ever seen him in my admittedly small number of games with him, but he doesn't seem to think that of himself. However, the distrust of the other players looks odd. Just plain odd.



++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.


Hm. Believe him and go with my Glirdy vote?

Or think he's a wolf, that any counter reveals would only help his case (and put the 'real' seer in danger), and that he's trying to get the Ranger to switch protections from the Lover to the false-seer so that both Lovers are gone for good?

Grrrr.

I don't know what to think.



...and of course, with absolute no way to prove anything of what Nog claims.

*sigh* I'm really too grouchy to seriously think on this and don't look forward to the headache that's coming from it.

Agan and phantom are understandable choices for a Nog-seer, or any seer for that matter. And while I've also thought phantom was up to no good, I've continually felt worse about Nog after my first reaction.

Even with Shasta's death, I was telling myself not to buy "Nog is being set up argument" because Nog witnessed my wolf-pack to the exact same thing with Nessa-wolf in his game.

If you're the seer, Nog, you get the choice of what I have to eat. If a wolf or cobbler you be, to the death deserveth ye.


I am inclined to believe him. This would be a rather crazy bold thing for a Wolf, or even a Cobbler to do, on only Day 2. And I can understand why he felt he had to reveal, what with the Lovers in the position they're in, and people seeming to want to vote for him. Now he'll be safe for toNight, and then he can dream of people as they die, and hopefully the Ranger lasts for a while and can provide us with a bunch of those dreams later on in the game (even if it's just dreams of dead players, that's still super useful, cause it'll be information that we can use to find connections between people).

So I believe him. And now I'm trying to figure out if we should bother killing Phantom? I'm inclined to not at the moment, he can't do much harm, so I would say we don't waste the lynch.


Well thank you, Nogrod. I suspected something like that would be coming. My job is at least a bit easier. Now I merely have to decide whether you are Cobbler or Wolf.



I'm rather inclined to believe Nog - I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted. I don't think he can say that Shasta played badly, though. We'll find out in Endgame why the wolves killed him, and until then, it doesn't do much good to say it was all Shasta's fault. I mean, if he was at least trying to determine which specific people would have noticed the hints, that'd be one thing, but as it is, I can absolutely see why he attracted votes like a magnet.

That being said, let's hope Nog dreams us up a wolf toNight.
Note: Lottie and phantom argue about this for several posts, Lottle defending Nogrod.

Why don't we do the obvious thing ang vote Blind Guardian? Time is short they are apparently about to be modfired. We lose an opportunity to lyncha wolf but we buy a little more time?


I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere.

So I hope I'm right..

++the phantom

Because it's more likely than not that one of the two is a wolf-cobbler.


Long post– concludes Nogrod is either a Seer or Cobbler and either way should not be lynched


Hm, brilliant. Now if Nog is bad, this looked rather bad too. And, I mean, even if Nog is telling the truth, once again, it does not make much sense to lynch Cobbler at this point. So I don't see why immediately following and wishing to lynch phantom.



++Nessa

I think I have said all as for what I think about whom people should vote or not... preferably not any possible Cobblers; otherwise, sufficient to say, seeing either of my general suspects go will be fine. But I have to really go to sleep now, so, vote well, folks... and really looking forward to toMorrow...


Reactions to Agan's trap:

Originally Posted by Nogrod
Agan is Beren indeed .
Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.


++Nog

I'm just going to push it through. He can yell at me post-game if he really is the seer, but I think his behavior up to and after his reveal screams sinister instead of seer. While I find it logical that a Seer-Nog would dream of Agan and the phantom, it doesn't mesh well with his earlier behavior and it's too easy to see those choices as, "I can say these and nobody has any power to deny it except for the true seer (hahaha!) or the phantom (who nobody believes anyway)!"
Note: Hadn't seen Agan's post at this point.


Seriously?! You switched the roles of you and Shasta purposefully for the sake of having that sort of trap up your sleeve later?!

If so, then I could totally kiss you right now!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that makes me feel way better about the vote I just cast.

I've been away on a fairly riotous evening, but I'm back, I've read the thread, and I think I understand it. Good old Werewolf. Bad old sleep. (etc.)


Dear me. I don't like any of this at all. Nog, the seer?!? What? Gah. He could very well be being truthsome, and tp etc. ganging up on him to distract. Or he could be trying to fool us all into going after tp, which people will undoubtedly be willing to do, considering phanty's verbosity. I simply don't know which faction is right. Both of them have been pinging my "uh-oh" radar. I may abstain today if this goes on much longer.
Note: curiously, neither Anguirel nor Elra seem to have noticed the most recent development.


Anguirel then corrects this oversight:
no, there's no way Nogrod's telling the truth, is there. Logical bind. His sincerity relies on Aganzir being Beren. Aganzir would only lie about being Luthien were she a wolf or cobbler.

Brilliant. Artistic. Best stroke of play involving a lover I've ever seen, and I was a damn good one


This is the bestest thing ever.



Actually, I'm getting really tired, so I'm just gonna go for it.

++Nog

++ Nogrod

Oh dear. Now my head is all spinny. Clever Agan.

++Nog

Because, even if he turns up Cobblerian rather than Wolfish, it's better than an innocent (and I'm sure you can gather which version of 'innocent' I meant).


oh Nowgli, as the Americans pithily put it, shut up already

++NOGROD


Well lets hope he is a wolf because (and in the light of events my idea wasn't such a good one as I thought at the time) we are also losing BG for good or ill most like.

++Nogrod


Note: throughout this, Nogrod argued back at great length, without even once mentioning the "trap"– even though by then this was practically the only thing anyone else was talking about. It rely defies belief that Seer-Nog could have just somehow not noticed. (Just in case anyone was still doubtful.)

Other than that– well, I'm not sure how much use this has been (it certainly took long enough). While I think there should have been reason to doubt Nog's reveal, the fact is that people do tend to trust a "Seer", so I can't really say people like Wilwa and Lottie look bad just for that– although they were certainly at best uncritical. It's also true that Lottie really did go out of her way to defend him. Nessa's vote looks the most questionable to me– it has that same air of apologising for itself as her Day One vote; also her earlier post looked an attempt to downplay the suspicicion against him (and indeed, re-direct it). Other than that, Boro and Greenie's interaction early in the Day more be significant, though I'm not sure what it adds up to.

EDIT:X'd with Lommy and Elra.

[Glirdan]

Well, I thought I was going to have another two pages to read through and get caught up on.

Interesting that no one tossed a hair when Mith brought up the likelihood of some trouble involving Blind Guardian yesterday (there was a practically audible collective response of "yeah, whatever") and now a lot of people are talking about nothing else. All because of Rikae's rather dramatic footnote? It seems to me preeetty exaggerated as a line of enquiry.

I'm glad I am not the only one who sees it this way, and I am quite inclined to take a close look at those who keep bringing it up. It's a much too easy way for a Wolf and/or Cobbler to distract us from the things that are a little higher on the priority list, like any news that Shasta brings to us from the Dead.

As I was getting caught up, this caught my eye:

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

Ummmm, what??? :confused: Are you forgetting the rules of the game?? Or are you purposely trying to make us question Manwe again for no reason whatsoever?

EDIT: Xed with Nerwen

[Mithalwen]

Blimey you have been positively chatty while I was washing up ..perhaps I should try that more often :S preferably without knocking half a bottle of disinfectant over myself.

[Aganzir]

My dearest! You've returned! Come to my– oh wait, I'm going to have to duel Agan, now, aren't I?
Oh, I'm sure that isn't necessary. It's more fun with three. ;)

You mean using the double-vote choice as a sort of code? It's hard to think of a way that would actually be workable– especially it seems there's now at least one cobbler in Mandos.
Yeah. What I had in mind was something along the lines of "if the first living person on the player list gets her vote doubled, the person we lynched the previous day was a wolf," plus whatever modifications we can come up with. There are problems though - at least one cobbler (although if Nog still wants to keep playing the seer, he had better comply to what we agree here :p), and the chance that the lynch gets messed up.

now we are not going to learn for sure whether he was a Wolf or Cobbler, resp. innocent (Seer) or Cobbler --- For that matter, I really think that also among those who urged for voting him, there might be Wolves/Cobblers
He wasn't the seer. He was either a cobbler or a wolf, and I'm inclined to say cobbler because Wolfgrod usually seems smoother.
If he had been the seer with self-preservation in mind, he wouldn't have failed to see my fake reveal - or even if he had, not after all the comments it got. He would have said "But I was told you're Beren!" He pretended to overlook it because there was no way he could've explained it. He was not the seer. (See also phantom's post where he explained Nog was only a well-prepared cobbler; the only coded hint he left was "I am the seer" which is far less useful than leaving a coded hint about my & phantom's roles.)
I agree the baddies might have been voting for him though, especially if one of their own was suspected. But I don't think it's bad we lynched Nog. If we want to achieve anything, we have to kill the baddies, all of them not just the wolves. I don't like how Legate keeps insisting the cobblers are of secondary importance.

Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler. Surely her shoemaking techniques would've been flashier
I agree. Of course I can't be sure, but when I played with Febbler before, she felt very wrong to me which wasn't the case this time around. As in, I disagreed with everything she said.
However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos. :p

Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?
Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?

[Nerwen]

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?
I presume they voted to check his role.

Anyway, my internet has been playing up badly again, and I'm not yet ready to visit the Halls via modfire, so–

++Nessa

See my previous post for reasons. It is rather thin, but I really can't come up with any strong lead to a wolf. (This isn't surprising considering how much the Nogrod show dominated yesterDay.) It's late at night here, though– maybe someone more alert will do better.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien
Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?
Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?
Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.

[Thinlómien]

Commenting while reading...

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?Well I think it'd always be usufel for the evil side to know each other. After all, if they manage to identify each other, they can join forces. Which makes this:
Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"a fair point and makes Boro go quite high on my list of possible cobblers. (Alongside with Phantom, Glirdan, Lottie and several others. I wish I had as many wolf suspects.)

Mmm, people seem to mean that Boro being a cobbler hinting at me means I'm a wolf. Wrong. It only means he thought I'm a wolf, and if you suspect me based on that, you suspect me of being a wolf just because he does. Pretty fishy logic (or high trust in Boro's skills of observance), I'd say.

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.
Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.NO!!! (Okay I know I'm arguing with a dead person but this is something I feel rather passionately about.) I agree "innocent" doesn't equal "ordo" like some people seem to think, but "innocent" doesn't include cobbler who's not innocent because they're not on the innocent side!!!

Edit: crossed with Glirdy... who seems to have spatula'ed himself from one side of the pan to the other. Which, in my brain, sends him from pan to fire... Ie: he didn't really help his cause.Totally cracked up at this. :D:D

TP's being a cobbler makes Lommy look betterWhy?

I'm rather worried I have no more to comment. I'm somehow feeling a bit detached from everything, and I think it must have to do with the fact that we don't know the roles of the dead. I think Nogrod was most likelily a cobbler, but if he was the seer that really sucks. However, his role doesn't matter to me that much, I think tp seems rathe cobblerish in any case.

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.


xed with all

[Thinlómien]

However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos.Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

[Aganzir]

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.
Guess what I'm doing at the moment? :p

anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.
I wouldn't be that quick to disregard the possibility of her being the seer.

Does not compute. What does that imply?
That he was worried about them finding out his alignment - which would point at his being a wolf. Of course the most sensible thing a basically known cobbler can do in Mandos is to be as chaotic as possible, so I don't know.

[Mithalwen]

Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

Three are dead and It was clear from Shasta's post. There aren't very many posts today and surely his are the ones were are all interested in. Rather suprised that you aren't.

[Loslote]

Why?

Because you were one of his top suspects. Of course, even without that element, I'm all confused again, because you've seemed a lot more innocent today than you did the Days before.

I thought I was going to have a ton of time to post toDay, but as it turns out, I'll be able to get online just before DL and a little bit throughout the Day.

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that. She also doesn't seem like a no-trail kill, mostly because there are others who would have left less of a trail, although she'd be more of a no-trail than a Seer kill. Maybe they thought she was too dangerous? But in that case, she's just being dangerous in the Dead Thread instead, which, while better for the wolves, isn't, I think, enough of a reason to spend the Night-kill on a person.

[Aganzir]

DAY 1:
She agreed with Nog that the innocents shouldn't do false reveals because it's harmful in a game where the roles aren't revealed.
Brought up the possibility of the wolves killing one of them who'd then proceed to play the seer in Mandos, saying we shouldn't base a plan on somebody claiming to be the seer because we have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth.
Had formed a (positive-ish) opinion on Shasta, Nog, me, Legate, Lommy, phantom, Boro, Mith, and Angu (this is what I'm going to call him from now on because it doesn't sound so much like Agan, plus it reminds me of Pingu); and said she'd vote for someone she hadn't an opinion of yet but who would be active in Mandos. She ended up choosing Nerwen.

DAY 2:
She suggests the wolves thought Shasta was the seer because of his pronounced opinion on Nog, but his death says more about the wolves than about Nog. She adds she didn't think he was the seer, though.
Phantom's vote looks good (avoiding a double-lynch), Mith's bad.
She says she's most likely voting for Nog because she doesn't trust him. She's also suspicious of Glirdy.
After Nog's reveal, Fea was undecided about whether to believe him. Her post could have been written by me - I was tempted to believe him but had my doubts because I had been so suspicious of him, and in the end I had to distance myself from it and try to consider his behaviour objectively. Three people voted for someone else than Nog after his reveal, but Fea decided to go and vote for him, never really buying his claim.
She suggested the phantom vote for Nog but said she doesn't know more than anyone else.

Nothing she says about people suggests she was the seer, but her day 2 posting does look seerish - Shasta probably wasn't the seer, her sudden suspicion (and then wavering) on Nog, etc. Regardless of whether she was the seer or not, it's possible the wolves thought so - or wanted us to think they thought so. I'm not totally confident of Fea's innocence after her "hey fellows let's kill me" thingy, but on the other hand I think WolFea would just have done it without giving us a warning.

[Aganzir]

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that.
Oh, not even her seeming certainty that Shasta wasn't the seer or her reluctance to believe Nog?

I am feeling bad about Boro so I'm now planning to reread his posts quickly and see if I find anything worth commenting on...

[A Little Green]

Back at last.

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.My vote for Nog had little to do with Boro's threat, since my reasons for wanting to vote Nessa were valid enough whatever he thought about them. Ending up voting for Nog was exactly as I put it: he was acting more strangely by the minute, while I figured a Nessa-vote would be pretty much a throwaway in any case. And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.
I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves. Agreed - but an admitted throwaway vote is hardly helpful in finding wolves.
Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?That is actually a very good point. I think a part of it was that - quite understandably - all the conversation revolved around those two, and people quite simply didn't come to think about anything else, especially at the very end of the Day with time running out. (Obviously, that was what whichever of the two is a baddie - Nog, basically - must have been aiming at.)

Argh. Still, I'm having doubts about Nog. His frustration with the village didn't seem faked. Basically he just has to be a better actor than I thought because looking at the actual content of his posts there's little chance of him actually being the Seer.


EDIT: x-ed with Lottie and two Agans

[Glirdan]

And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.

I've been having the same feeling about her for awhile but just didn't know what to make of it. The same applies for Elron and Wilwa. Maybe it's because all three are quiet and have been kind of slipping under my radar that I'm very leery of them. I think I'm going to take a closer look at all three of them.

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry Lommy, when did I hint at you? I only said that I thought your paranoia was due to having your bororadar being flushed down the toilet because of the previous two games, but I wasn't going to write that off as the reason. Now supposedly I'm hinting to you? Umm...where? You came up with a completely bogus theory that I'm the cobbler because I said "steering" and that is close to "seering." Now you're just running with it declaring I'm a cobbler.

And quite frankly, I'm sick of the bogus suspicions that have been thrown all around by phantom, sally, Lottie and now you Lommy. Granted, I realize I'm totally an untrustworthy and tricksy person, and normally with just the baseless suspicions I ignore it. Maybe I should, but it appears to be happening all to frequently right now and by people who I wouldn't expect would just throw out indefensible accusations that can be summed up as...

"I have a fb impression of Boro" (Nog)

"Boro's suspicious. I'm voting for him." (sally)

"I think Boro looks the worst." (phantom)

"Boro said steering! That's like saying seering! Cobbler!" (Lommy)

Come on Lommy, you know I say "see" all the time and know that's never a seer hint, it's just a word I always use. Now apparently I can't say steer without it being some kind of hint. :rolleyes:

[Thinlómien]

I wouldn't be that quick to disregard the possibility of her being the seer.If she was, she was extremely stupid to suggest the scenario of a wolf going kamikaze and making a seer-reveal on the dead thread.

That he was worried about them finding out his alignment - which would point at his being a wolf. Of course the most sensible thing a basically known cobbler can do in Mandos is to be as chaotic as possible, so I don't know.And he alone could convince innocent!Mänwë and innocent!Shasta to leave him be? I thought Nerwen had something more drastic in mind. I have the feeling someone's keeping information from me.

Three are dead and It was clear from Shasta's post. There aren't very many posts today and surely his are the ones were are all interested in. Rather suprised that you aren't.I didn't say I'm not. In fact, I think he could talk more.

Because you were one of his top suspects.How does a cobbler's top suspect equal innocent? Or just trusting phantom's brainpower that much? ;)


edit: xed with Boro

[Thinlómien]

I'm sorry Lommy, when did I hint at you? I only said that I thought your paranoia was due to having your bororadar being flushed down the toilet because of the previous two games, but I wasn't going to write that off as the reason. Now supposedly I'm hinting to you? Umm...where? You came up with a completely bogus theory that I'm the cobbler because I said "steering" and that is close to "seering." Now you're just running with it declaring I'm a cobbler.

And quite frankly, I'm sick of the bogus suspicions that have been thrown all around by phantom, sally, Lottie and now you Lommy. Granted, I realize I'm totally an untrustworthy and tricksy person, and normally with just the baseless suspicions I ignore it. Maybe I should, but it appears to be happening all to frequently right now and by people who I wouldn't expect would just throw out indefensible accusations that can be summed up as...

"I have a fb impression of Boro" (Nog)

"Boro's suspicious. I'm voting for him." (sally)

"I think Boro looks the worst." (phantom)

"Boro said steering! That's like saying seering! Cobbler!" (Lommy)

Come on Lommy, you know I say "see" all the time and know that's never a seer hint, it's just a word I always use. Now apparently I can't say steer without it being some kind of hint. :rolleyes:
I'm not meaning to insult you by silly suspicion, but I think I had a fair enough point. If you say you believe someone is "steering" it looks too much like "seering". This is not to say you're stupid - quite the contrary, I can't come up with many subtler ways of hinting at the wolves you think somebody is the seer if you're a cobbler yourself. And everybody knows such a scheme is not past you by any means.

As for you hinting at me, well, that's what this (previously quoted) comment sounds a lot like:
I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.Basically the things you say are: 1) You feel good about me. 2) I think you're a cobbler. 3) I'm unsure because my bororadar is brokey. 4) In truth, my bororadar is fine (although it needs a little update). Ergo, you're saying my bororadar is fine when it says you're a cobbler, Or (hey, just realised, and this is even worse!) it's a bit off because you're not actually a cobbler this time - but a wolf? That's all rather fishy, says I.

That's quite a to the point summary why I think you're doing fishy stuff and it all adds up quite nicely to you being a Bobbler (yay to Greenie for the nickname!).

[Boromir88]

Basically the things you say are: 1) You feel good about me. 2) I think you're a cobbler. 3) I'm unsure because my bororadar is brokey. 4) In truth, my bororadar is fine (although it needs a little update). Ergo, you're saying my bororadar is fine when it says you're a cobbler, Or (hey, just realised, and this is even worse!) it's a bit off because you're not actually a cobbler this time - but a wolf? That's all rather fishy, says I.

That's quite a to the point summary why I think you're doing fishy stuff and it all adds up quite nicely to you being a Bobbler (yay to Greenie for the nickname!).

No. What I said translates to. I feel good about you, even though you came up with this super far fetched reason to say I'm the cobbler. Oh, I forgot we must suspect everyone who suspects ourselves. No one who is innocent can ever be wrong. :rolleyes:

So lemme be more blunt (and if this comes off as condescending I'm sorry now. I'm not insulted by anything you've or anyone else said). You were wrong then, you're still wrong now. Only then I wasn't going to hold it against you, because innocents especially can be wrong, and I thought you were trying to enact some playful Day 1 revenge since the last two times you've been wrong about my role. But now I see you're actually serious and this is worrying me. However you interpret from me saying "I feel good about you, even if you are wrong about me" as me giving you a cobbler hint and thinking you're a wolf, I haven't got a clue. And now you've turned my clear cobbler hint to you, into some kind of hint saying I'm a wolf?

You say I'm fishy? Really? Yet you've completely ignored baseless suspicions that are piling up against me. You don't think that's fishy? You're more thoughtful than this, Lommy. I hope you're a baddie, because I would hope an innocent Lommy wouldn't stand for the snow job against me right now, even if she was honestly suspicious of me for good reasons.

[Glirdan]

Day 1

Post #79 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647644&postcount=79)

First post of the Day and she says this:

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

A lot of...well...nothing...Nothing of true substance, nothing that is really, as she put it, "productive". She says things that have alredy been said or is just common knowledge.

Post #102 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647668&postcount=102)

Again, nothing. A one line post saying she doesn't know who to vote for. Doesn't give any thoughts of her own on anything that was said up to this point, doesn't share her thoughts on anybody else. Nothing.

Post #138 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647705&postcount=138)

Finally gives some thoughts of her own on something that Fea had said, more specifically about Fea's "Deadifying active players" plan. States that she will vote randomly and I quote:

my Day 1 vote will probably be random, and based on knee-jerk reaction, in a wonderfully useless fashion. :p

Then goes on to banter.

Post #147 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647714&postcount=147)

Her vote post, voting for Legate (the first one for him of the Day) with this as her reasoning.

Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

and then goes on to say this:

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?

The one thing I like about this is that she did kind of follow through with how she was going to vote. I say kind of because she did give a reason for the vote, although it was out of pure spite.

Day 2

Post #323 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647981&postcount=323)

First post of the Day. Responds to Legate, admitting her vote was a throwaway and says this to Greenie:

I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves.

A valid enough answer and reasoning.

Aaand, Nog seems to be ruffling everybody feathers, and the whole situation makes me upset. This is more "aggressive" than I've ever seen him in my admittedly small number of games with him, but he doesn't seem to think that of himself. However, the distrust of the other players looks odd. Just plain odd.

I have no idea what to make of this. I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation from her on how everyone else's distrust of Nog is "odd". This is a game of Werewolf. It's what we do, distrust one another until someone is proven innocent.

And the whole Shasta stuff makes sense to me. I don't know who I'll vote. It won't do any good to toss my vote like yesterDay, since it wouldn't affect the lynch, but I don't want a double-lynch. That leaves bandwagoning.

Again, not sure what to make of this. I do know that I don't like this. It doesn't "leave bandwaggoning". Vote for who you think is guilty, not who everyone else is voting for.

Post #336 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647997&postcount=336)

Votes for phantom because she believe Nog (this was before Agan snapped her trap on Nobbler) and then is gone the rest of the Day. I will give her credit for following her own gut instinct on this one instead of just following the masses.

All in all, I am not very fond of Nessa, she seems to be latching on to everything other people are saying and really only making her own decisions with her votes, which haven't been all that helpful either. I'm tempted to believe one of the following two scenarios: 1) She's a Cobbler or 2) a very confusing innocent.

EDIT: X'ed since last

[A Little Green]

Aganzir - Beren, obviously. I heart her for her trick yesterDay.
Shasta - Lúthien, obviously.
Glirdan - He struck me as a likely Cobbler early on, saying that Shasta behaved the same way he did as a Seer. I still think Glirdy might be a Cobbler though there hasn't been new points to that direction. So not sure.
Elra - I seriously want to take a look at her.
Nerwen - She's always difficult to read but I'm leaning towards an innocent Nerwen at the moment.
Loslote - Still leaning innocent.
Wilwa - Another I need a look at.
Legate - Nothing alarming this far, he seems his usual innocent self.
Lommy - Was suspicious on Day 1, okay on Day 2, and now my alarms are going off again. I think she's grasping at straws with her suspicion of Boro, and seems overall nervous.
Nessa - Another I feel bad about. Her Legate vote was fishy, and I'm not sure what to make of her phantom-vote either. Seems awfully easy to me.
Sally - I might want to take a look at her, too.
the phantom - Leaning innocent.
Boro - I don't have much on him, either way.
Mithalwen - Still baffles me a lot. Could be anything.
Anguirel - Likewise.

Argh. I'm not happy with how many people I have no idea about. The way this is going, my vote will probably be for Lommy or Nessa. I'd like to take a look at some of our less vocal players before voting though.


EDIT: x-ed with Boro and Glirdy

[satansaloser2005]

I'd like to officially add Bobbler to the glossary. :)


Okieday, kids, I'm back. I have many things to do while on the webs, but I'll read through the thread and try to make some sense from this chaos.

And Shasta? I'm glad to have you back, my defrosted darling. <3

[Aganzir]

DAY 1
Phantom assigned a role to everybody at the beginning of day 1 calling Boro a cobbler. Boro made a sports-related joke in return. Nog pinged on his radar after like one or two posts because he was the first to start talking serious stuff. According to Boro, he was trying to steer and spin what he wanted to spin and looked bleaker than the situation merited.
He was feeling good about Lommy (who had called him a cobbler):
--- Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.
He chastised Glirdan and Legate about exaggerating his early suspicion of Nog, and voted for Legate. This looks reasonable enough, unlike most other things he said or did on day 1.

DAY 2
He explains his Legate vote a bit further, then says that in a game like this it's important to keep the voting close. This rings false to me. Firstly, it makes multiple lynches easier. Secondly, if someone appears much more suspicious than the others, the village usually wants her dead. This doesn't happen if we don't bandwagon. Thirdly, the votes don't have to be even in order for us to learn what the DL voters think.
He had Greenie, Nerwen, sally, me (to be honest I'm quite upset about my threat level being considered that of a koala :p) and Fea listed as Koalas. Nog and Glirdan looked the worst to him, and he considered voting for one of them or the phantom. He's convinced at least one of them is evil, probably more (Glirdy at least a cobbler, Nog looking desperate). He disapproved of Greenie's plan to vote for Nessa just because she might be an easy bandwagon target if people start having doubts about lynching one of the aforementioned three.
He then voted for Nog, saying it's no good to insinuate players are cheating and he's confident about his vote.
After Nog's revelation, he said there's no way to prove if he's telling the truth. He didn't make up his mind about him at all. He then discussed why Nog said the phantom was a cobbler - if he was a wolf, it would've made more sense to offer the name of a fellow if he wanted us to believe him, but saying someone is a cobbler isn't the best way to save oneself. When I first read this I thought it was Boro's explanation for believing Nog's claim (which I found extremely fishy) but now that it isn't 4 am anymore, I see it wasn't the case and it actually makes sense. Hmm okay then there's his next post where his opinion changes (after phantom corrected him about the rules) so I don't know what he meant after all...

I think Boro could go either way. Especially some of that Lommy stuff and the thing about keeping the votes even. Suspecting Noggins doesn't tell us much about Boro because Nog was probably a cobbler and therefore they wouldn't have known of each other even if both are baddies.

I have been writing this on and off and haven't really read anything after my last post. Will be back later.

[Mithalwen]

.

I didn't say I'm not. In fact, I think he could talk more.


No you didn't say but your posts show you didn't even bother reading to the second sentence of his only post!

Now the only reason I can think of for not scouring his every word is that he can tell you nothing new ie that you already know who is a wolf or not.

[A Little Green]

A quick look at Elra. DOES NOT include full quotes of all her posts, only the extracts I thought were or could be relevant.

Day 1

Anyhow. Most unhappy with not having a very good read on anybody yet.

Legate, Nog, and Agan are of course posting their usual tomes. Lommy seems a little more...confused...than usual. (Though who am I to talk about "usual", this being only my third game ever...) phantom is on my good side at the moment. Despite the incessant chatter (joke), he seems to be thinking things through in a more, erm, down-to-earth fashion than other tome-writers (sorry, Legate and Co.).So Lommy is confused an phantom looks good.

This is the way my brain is working too... The train of thought goes: "Okay, we want to kill the baddies. But we also don't want to make malicious ghosts. Crap."

This tension between Nogrod and Shasta worries me somewhat. Hrmmm.
++Nogrod

Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost. So, the tension between Shasta and Nog is worrying, Shasta's reaction looks innocent, so she votes for Nog. I'm not sure of the soundness of this logic (given how wrong innocents can be of each other), but for Day 1 it looks fair enough.

Day 2

Oh dear, oh dear. Poor Shasta.

I still don't know quite what to make of yesterDay. Manwe's been killed, for reasons beyond me. That whole Shasta vs. Nog thing was troublesome, and probably why Shasta got dead. Makes me worry about Nog. And phantom is a bother at the back of my brain. Something seems off about him, despite his sense-making. Or maybe that's just him. So many people in this game that I haven't played with before...this makes for an uncomfortable lack of predictability.The first line looks fabricated, but then, I think that every time someone expresses misery over a Night kill. I'm not a fan of the tone of the second paragraph either, but can't really pinpoint what exactly is off there.

Dear me. I don't like any of this at all. Nog, the seer?!? What? Gah. He could very well be being truthsome, and tp etc. ganging up on him to distract. Or he could be trying to fool us all into going after tp, which people will undoubtedly be willing to do, considering phanty's verbosity. I simply don't know which faction is right. Both of them have been pinging my "uh-oh" radar. I may abstain today if this goes on much longer.Looks like honest confusion, but I don't know how much can be read to that - after all, there's no reason why that situation would have been any less confusing to a wolf (unless either Nog or phantom is one, of course).

Abstaining. At this point om not going to change the outcome, and I don't think I can condone either side. Sorry, all.

Day 3

Only one post this far.
As far as this, I should clear up that I'm in no way interested in voting for the phantom today or even if we did find out about Nog's role. That's outloud thinking that simply because Fea died and Nog looked evil, doesn't mean phantom looks better, or I'm not understanding how he looks better.
I agree with you on this. phantom still seems fishy, but not to the point of being wolfish. There are much better targets to be examined than him.What caught my eye about Elra's posts is how her opinion on the phantom changes. Day 1 he feels good, Day 2 he seems off and has been pinging her "uh-oh" -radar, and Day 3 he still seems fishy but there are better candidates. Generally Elra's leaning more innocent than not. Her first post on Day 2 is slightly fishy, but other than that I caught nothing that would point to evil intentions.

[Glirdan]

Day 1

Completely absent (only remembered that the game started when she got a phone call from me reminding her).

Day 2

Post #228 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647844&postcount=228)

Just saying she was here and getting caught up on everything.

Post #231 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647851&postcount=231)

Quotes something from Boro and says that she would have said the same thing (and reading what Boro posted and the tone in which it was said, I could definitely see Wilwa saying the same thing).

Brings up a very good point about the voting:

Alrighty. So not much can be taken from Manwe's lynch, because we have no idea what he is. We can still suspect/trust people based on their votes (all votes, not just those for Manwe), but not in the usual way. Usually we can say "X voted for Y, who we now know is innocent, so...", but now it's more based on why they voted for people, so if they gave good reasoning, or if it seemed random, and so on. It's an interesting situation, cause now someone can look bad to us because of how they voted, but for all we know they actually voted a wolf (which would make them look awesome), but we don't have that knowledge. It's all just so crazy.

Thinks I don't look like a Wolf because of my "Last-time-Shasta-was-a-Seer" comment, but states that she could believe me to be a Cobbler but also says this:

Or Shasta's death is totally unrelated to Glirdy's comment, and more related to the fact that people seemed to like him a lot (though this doesn't exclude the possibility of Glirdy being a Cobbler, he could still have meant to hint at the Wolves but the Wolves just killed Shasta for a totally different reason).

Post #327 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647986&postcount=327)

Focuses on Nog's Seer reveal, incling to believe him.

I am inclined to believe him. This would be a rather crazy bold thing for a Wolf, or even a Cobbler to do, on only Day 2. And I can understand why he felt he had to reveal, what with the Lovers in the position they're in, and people seeming to want to vote for him. Now he'll be safe for toNight, and then he can dream of people as they die, and hopefully the Ranger lasts for a while and can provide us with a bunch of those dreams later on in the game (even if it's just dreams of dead players, that's still super useful, cause it'll be information that we can use to find connections between people).

This is definitely a very logical statement, and one that I feel a Wolf or Cobbler would not make. I don't know why, I just feel like the statement screams innocent. I just feel like a Wolf and/or Cobbler wouldn't make a statement that bold or reveal a possible plan of attack.

Goes on to say that she would rather no lynch phantom.

Post #363 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=648033&postcount=363)

Says this in response to Agan's trap:

This is the bestest thing ever. :D

Post #368 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=648039&postcount=368)

Agrees with Angu (there, better then Toppins?? :p) about feeling silly about trusting Nog and agrees that he is definitely not the Seer.

Post #372 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=648044&postcount=372)

Votes Nog

All in all, I'd say Wilwa seems fairly innocent to me. The tone of her posts and the way she's posting says innocent. The only downside is the frequentness of her posts....or I should say, lack there of.

EDIT: Xed since last...again

[Glirdan]

And Greenie just did the Elra analysis for me, which I will read up later, but for now, I must depart for supper. I also have a rehearsal I have to leave for in about two hours and will be there for three hours, so if I do not make an appearence before my rehearsal, expect me back afterwards for voting. :)

[A Little Green]

I have to go to sleep now. So I'm going to go for

++ Lommy

Because out of my current top suspects Lommy and Nessa, she's the one that I find a less likely innocent. She quite simply isn't herself at all, she's jumpy and nervous and making weird arguments.

Good night!

[Loslote]

Oh, not even her seeming certainty that Shasta wasn't the seer or her reluctance to believe Nog?

I wouldn't think so. I mean, I don't think Fea was the Seer, and that doesn't mean that I myself am. And Fea wasn't the only one to distrust Nog's reveal. When it comes to Seer candidates, I'd think the wolves could have found stronger ones.

How does a cobbler's top suspect equal innocent? Or just trusting phantom's brainpower that much? ;)

It hardly certified your innocence, but it did make me more hesitant to distrust you. After all, when you have two suspects, one of which is suspected by a 'cobbler' and the other of which is suspected by a 'seer', which are you going to want to vote? :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Regarding the dead thread

The votes on Manwe came about as follows - I was quite vocal about Nog, and voted him just as soon as Night started. Nog came on and we dueled for a while, but he was very calm about his impending reveal, even going out of his way to vote for himself. I decided that he was a cobbler at that point (had been leaning that way for some time), and retracted my vote to switch to Manwe, whom we knew nothing about but /was/ lynched (Nog's actions being such that I felt he knew he'd turn up 'not a wolf'). Manwe then came on and voted for himself, making it 2 for him and 1 for Nog.

I also told the dead thread to always vote for the lynched player for the role reveal - anyone killed by the wolves is by definition not a wolf, so a revelation of them is a waste.

In other news, Nog is still claiming that Phantom is a cobbler. Manwe would like Boro, among others, looked at. Oh, yes, and Fea is high on Nog's suspected list. :rolleyes: Anyway.

Lommy's actions today are striking me as odd, but not wolfish-odd - they look more to me like a Prelude to Chaos in C Minor - that is, a lead-up to a chaotic cobbler play. The main person I'm looking at is Lottie, who defended Nog yesterday.

[Loslote]

The main person I'm looking at is Lottie, who defended Nog yesterday.

I would have done the same thing as an innocent or as a wolf. As an innocent, I believed his claim. I supported him because I didn't want to lynch our Seer. As a wolf, I still would have believed his claim. I would have supported him to try and avoid a Seer dream. After all, lynches you can fight against. Seer dreams you can't control. As a cobbler is where I'd have done it differently. I still would have believed his claim. And, as a cobbler, I'd have attacked him. As a cobbler, I wouldn't fear a Seer dream - if I died, I died, no biggie - but I would like to see the Seer lynched, so that they wouldn't dream of any wolves.

So, basically, the only thing you can learn from my defense of Nog is that I'm either innocent or a wolf or a lying cobbler, and that I'm a little bit guillible. ;)

[Mithalwen]

There are a lot on the dark side this game but not an infinite number - some of the people playing silly beggars have to be wolves..they can't all be cobblers esp if the BG hypothesis is correct. Lommie hasn't been as I remembered her this game. Either she has become disengaged or she is up to something. If I had to vote now it would be for her but I can hang fire for a bit.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I am around now, though really not much in the state for playing (feeling incredibly tired, almost to the point of exhaustion, seriously).

Generally, there hasn't been even too much said... the things that have stood out for me is the debate about Boro, which may have its merit, and also some of the points Greenie had brought about elra in her analysis are interesting. Otherwise, general comments...

Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?
Well, phantom was there probably because Nog has labeled him as a dreamed-of Cobbler. So I think otherwise, the "two camps" existed most likely simply because of Nog's revelation.

As for the dangerousness of the Cobbler, well, after a Night or two, if he wasn't targeted, it would become clear that he is not what he claims to be. Also...

I agree the baddies might have been voting for him though, especially if one of their own was suspected. But I don't think it's bad we lynched Nog. If we want to achieve anything, we have to kill the baddies, all of them not just the wolves. I don't like how Legate keeps insisting the cobblers are of secondary importance.
They are not - but it is a bit different from other games, and especially under the circumstances like these, lynching a Cobbler a) prevents you from lynching a Wolf (so the Cobbler is partially fulfilling its purpose), b) with so low numbers, the Cobbler can start making a mess in Mandos. And he also cannot be distinguished anymore from an ordinary innocent (or gifted). So, like this. I think in general it would have been more advantageous for the WWs yesterDay to lynch the Cobbler than for us. Something like that.

Okay. I am afraid I won't get to my Nerwelysis, which I wanted to make, or I can try, but depending on how much she had posted... otherwise, I might just slowly decide my vote... there are several options, I am still circling more or less around the Nessa-phantom-maybe Lottie (?) or also Ang - circle with Lommies/Boros/some of the abovementioned being also possibly a Cobbler... (and now interested about Elronhubbard and still having Nerwen to look at)

EDIT: x-ed after LG's vote, with Lottie, Shasta, Lottie, Mith

[Boromir88]

When I first read this I thought it was Boro's explanation for believing Nog's claim (which I found extremely fishy) but now that it isn't 4 am anymore, I see it wasn't the case and it actually makes sense. Hmm okay then there's his next post where his opinion changes (after phantom corrected him about the rules) so I don't know what he meant after all...

I never truly believed his claim, but I thought the reason baddies make fake reveals is the desperate attempt to save themselves for at least one more day. However, I thought if a wolf-Nog was truly trying to save himself it would have been far easier to just say he didn't have a wolf, or if he was going to name someone as a baddie, than to name that person as a wolf. To me, calling phantom a cobbler wasn't a sure fire way for Nog to save himself, which is the objective of an fake reveal.

At that time I didn't come to any sure conclusion about Nog's reveal, but I wasn't really believing it either.

Then when phantom pointed out since the cobblers aren't going to be revealed in the dead thread, it's actually smarter that he names a cobbler because then Nog's fake seer claim would be harder to check. If Nog claims phantom's a wolf, phantom dies, and it turns up in the dead thread phantom is not a wolf, Nog's trick is up. I wasn't thinking about the cobblers prior, and once phantom pointed out why Nog would chose to call him a cobbler instead of a wolf, I was dead set convinced Nog had fake revealed. And that he's probably a cobbler, but I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up wolf either.

That all occured before your own trap, which I did not see until waking up later (which the BD happened to be brokey for a while when I did wake up :rolleyes: )

I think Nessa's too easy of a target. Granted, that's what everyone said when she was a wolf previously, that she was getting framed, but then she fueled the idea she was getting framed. I think we tend to forget when you really don't have any information it's difficult to come up with some impeccable shiny-phantom idea. All you can really do is read what's posted, guess at who sounds good to you, which typically looks like you're just sitting back and going with the flow. Going with the flow is not really a solid reason to suspect someone of wolvery, and Glirdan, you shouldn't overlook the times when Nessa has added her own ideas.

I may be back. I may not be.

++Lommy

Reasons should be clear enough from my previous post. And I didn't even get to her opinions about Nog, which really said nothing about what her opinions were. Nog Day 1 "seemed ok" and was then was giving her a headache Day 2. And then the comment about how Shasta's (or was it Fea's? I forget) death made Nog look better.

As for me, I'm ready to make my own bed.

[Thinlómien]

Boro - I get it you're not exactly happy about me suspecting you when you're already being suspected by many. However, I'm not going to drop my suspicions or apologise for them just because you're my friend. And what you said still is basically "you're (almost) right when calling me a cobbler", whether you meant it or not. And of course you say you didn't mean it, but you must understand I can't take your word for that. And I might be ignoring most of the other suspicion coming your way - because, like you said, it's baseless. It's Sally's and elephant's problem if they don't have grounds for their suspicions, not mine. And I guess I do not need to comment on Nog's suspicions on you, since that cobbler is already dead.

I didn't pay much attention to Nessa before, but Glirdan's analysis is rather eyebrow-raising. Whether it means Nessa is guilty (and I think he could be as well a wolf as a cobbler) or Glirdan is a crafty cobbler, I cannot really say. Have to think about this.

No you didn't say but your posts show you didn't even bother reading to the second sentence of his only post!
Now the only reason I can think of for not scouring his every word is that he can tell you nothing new ie that you already know who is a wolf or not.Come on, that's not very nice. I already said I didn't realise the revealment-vote thingy started yet (I didn't realise it started right after the death of the third peson, if you want to chastise me for something, you ought to chastise me for not reading the rules properly not for not reading other people's posts carefully) and that's why I was confused. I don't really like this post of yours, because either you have not been reading my posts properly or you're intentionally trying to make me look ridiculous.

Glirdan's analysis made me think about Wilwa more. I see my vote yesterDay was hasty - apart from the gloating tone of her first post, she actually seems quite fine.

She quite simply isn't herself at all, she's jumpy and nervous and making weird arguments.I protest! I think my arguments aren't any weirder than normal, the game is just a lot weirder than any in ages with the dead thread, unknown roles and three cobblers. *shudders*

After all, when you have two suspects, one of which is suspected by a 'cobbler' and the other of which is suspected by a 'seer', which are you going to want to vote? Okay, fair point. :D

Shasta, thanks for the info. That's sure something to think about.


edit: xed with Mith, Legz and Boro

[Thinlómien]

++Lommy

Reasons should be clear enough from my previous post. And I didn't even get to her opinions about Nog, which really said nothing about what her opinions were. Nog Day 1 "seemed ok" and was then was giving her a headache Day 2. And then the comment about how Shasta's (or was it Fea's? I forget) death made Nog look better.Hey come on now that's over the top! I think (I don't remember) I thought Nog okay on Day1, but yesterDay I was confused. There was something fishy in his manner, yet it was fishy in the typical Nogrod manner. I wasn't around when he made his revelation. And as for toDay - I have quite clearly said several times I think it's most likely he was a cobbler.

I think you're taking this a bit personally, which I'm sorry about, because I never meant to provoke you that way (I know you said you're not insulted, which is good, 'cos I'm not trying to insult anyone).

Wondering if this is a sign of innocence and I shouldn't vote you toDay...?

Gah. I should make a list to organise my head. I have so many probable cobblers in my head and only a few probable wolves.

[satansaloser2005]

Master Phantom has been held up, and will not be back until later this evening.


And now back to the massive reread. I'm currently still on page three. Help me. :eek:

[elronds_daughter]

Well, the only opinions I've developed over the course of the day are a) I tend to think the people who do lots of in-depth analyzing (e.g., Greenie, Glirdy) are innocent; b) I still don't like the way phantom's been coming across*, but I won't vote for him today because I think he's just a cobbler; c) I'm not sure what to make of this whole Boro vs. Lommy...thing...but if I had to choose one of them right now I'd side with Boro.

I'll be back later to vote.


*Greenie, I feel I ought to explain how tp went from "on my good side" to "pinging my uh-oh radar", since it seemed to worry you a bit (though not enough to think I'm guilty, thanks for that). I have a bad habit of sometimes only skimming through people's tome-posts, and tp was at first distilling those down to a point where my overtaxed brain could understand....but then his nice distillations turned into confusion-sowing (at least that's how I perceived it). Hence the switch. He hasn't talked much today, though. I'm not sure what to make of that.

EDIT: x'ed with lots, in particular sally who explained tp's silence.

[Nessa Telrunya]

I have no idea what to make of this. I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation from her on how everyone else's distrust of [b]Nog is "odd". This is a game of Werewolf. It's what we do, distrust one another until someone is proven innocent.


I was referring to his distrust of the other players .

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Since someone had mentioned that a different code of lists might be interesting for a change (though personally, I have never been using the dull "black and white" scheme, but a more colorful one), I thought of this (and those who know, know):

belonging to the Coastal Seas:
Shasta and Agan - lovers

free-lands (innocent-looking):
Greenie

border-lands (not sure, but leaning more innocent):
wilwa
Mith - though I feel like she, too, has been omitted, at least by me; I have the feeling, however, that she hasn't been really commenting in much of a "relationship"-way, like, not expressing very much thoughts about particular players, but more like just always replying to somebody and voting in the way that it does not give much info either.

wilderness (unsure about):
Glirdan
Elronhubbard
Nerwen - I have actually looked through her posts, generally, but I cannot make up my mind on her now - will possibly need to check her again later when I feel more up to the task

double wildernesses (something in between these two): Boro, though now when I was looking back at the thread, I am somehow getting more suspicious of him because of his general behavior - he looks kind of more like hiding something, a bit sneaky in the general approach, sort of giving the feeling that he knows more than he should.

shadow-lands (Cobblers/Wolves):
Loslote
Lommy
Anguirel - who is actually more likely to be a Wolf than a Cobbler, but then, he is not as suspicious as those listed below

dark-domains (most likely Wolves, or more like Wolves than Cobblers):
Nessa
Phantom

Since Nessa has already gained a vote, I might go for her. But I'll see yet if I haven't crossposted with anybody or anything...

EDIT: no, I didn't.

[Aganzir]

Still, I'm having doubts about Nog. His frustration with the village didn't seem faked.
Even a baddie can be genuinely frustrated. Just saying.

I am actually feeling somewhat better about Lommy. She may be acting weirdly, but if she really was a baddie, why would she make a lot of noise about Boro 'hinting' at her? If she's a wolf who thinks she has found the cobbler, she won't try to lynch the cobbler. If she's a cobbler who thinks she's found a wolf, she won't try to lynch the wolf. If she's a cobbler who thinks she's found another cobbler, she won't try to lynch the cobbler. Think about it.

This is definitely a very logical statement, and one that I feel a Wolf or Cobbler would not make. I don't know why, I just feel like the statement screams innocent.
The problem with wilwa is, she plays with an innocent mindset (just like I usually think from a wolf's point of view, which should explain my dangerous dead union comment or whatever it was). She can say something even if it might make things more difficult for her side, and as a result she always seems very innocent. So while I kind of agree it's unlikely a wolf would have said so, I wouldn't put it past wilwa.

I wouldn't think so. I mean, I don't think Fea was the Seer, and that doesn't mean that I myself am. And Fea wasn't the only one to distrust Nog's reveal. When it comes to Seer candidates, I'd think the wolves could have found stronger ones.
Yes, but the wolves can't know that. And Fea was one of the least inclined to believe Nog which says something.
I'm still not liking Lottie very much.

(Nog's actions being such that I felt he knew he'd turn up 'not a wolf'). Manwe then came on and voted for himself, making it 2 for him and 1 for Nog.
He could still be a wolf though. That would be a reasonable course of action even for a wolf, and although I'm tending towards his being a cobbler, I wouldn't rule out wolvery either...
I am wondering about Mänwe now though. He rather proved his own non-wolvery to us than let us know Nog's role. Cobbler doing damage control? Not that I ever particularly suspected him, but that doesn't exactly look good on him.

I also told the dead thread to always vote for the lynched player for the role reveal - anyone killed by the wolves is by definition not a wolf, so a revelation of them is a waste.
This is probably a good idea. If the wolves want to kill one of their own just to fool us, they're one wolf down and I don't think it's worth it.
Does this now mean we'll never learn Nog's role, though?

with so low numbers, the Cobbler can start making a mess in Mandos.
Not really. After today you'll have two known innocents in Mandos, and even though it isn't much, each innocent who ends up there will at least know whose intentions to trust to be true.

It's pretty late so I should probably do a quick list and then vote.

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Shasta&Agan - obviously.
Elra - I can't really see much suspicious in anything she does. She seems genuine.

No idea
Greenie - hasn't rung any alarm bells except toDay. I'm trying to avoid being knee-jerky, but her vote for me seemed awfully like "hey let's pick a popular suspicion and see if it can be made into a bandwagon" especially as I really don't think she has a good reason to suspect me.
Nerwen - she could be anything! An innocent, a wolf or a cobbler trying a smoother approach... anything.
Wilwa - Glirdan's analysis made me really think her innocent, but after I wrote what I did about Glirdan (see below) I started to wonder if I have been talked into thinking this way. (I can just too well see a Glibbler spotting a Wolvarin and making an innocence promoting analysis of her.)
Legate - rather funnily, he's quite safely under my radar. I hope he's innocent, but I wouldn't dare to bet anything.
Anguirel - I thought him a cobbler yesterDay, toDay I'm not so sure. Yes, he might be misleading with all the talk about the dead thread instead of concentrating on more useful stuff, but I think that's probably just his style after all. He hasn't posted much toDay, though, so I think I need more to be certain.

Cobbler vibes
Glirdan - there's something funny about his manner, and his Day1 curiosities have been discussed lengthily enough for me to leave them out of here. Also, I can just so well see a cobbler trying to affect the village by posting analyses of people and intentionally interpreting stuff in a certain way.
Lottie - mostly based on her Day2 behaviour and possibly for defending Nog yesterDay whatever she says. Has been quite reasonable toDay, though.
phantom - like I've said before, the vibes he gives me are those of a cobbler trying to mess up with the heads of the villagers (not that he doesn't do that as an innocent :p). But just all this misleading talk about the dead thread and wonderful-seeming strategies which have faults on closer look. I feel an innocent phantom would be sharper: not concentrate on minor things like the dead thread or make such non-waterproof startegies all the time.
Boro - I believe I have stated enough reasons for this.
Mith - I don't really like her way of intentionally misunderstanding me, plus her voting preferences have been seriously quite fishy this far: first the stab at a double lynch and yesterDay wanting to waste the village's chance of getting a wolf or a cobbler by voting BG.

Wolf vibes
Nessa - I haven't paid much attention to her, but everybody else seems to have done so and nothing I've seen people say about her makes me think her very innocent. I think either there's merit to all this suspicion flying around, or she's being attacked by cobblers and wolves because she's quite an easy target with those few quirky pieces of behaviour.
Sally - she hasn't been around much, but the little I've seen isn't entirely convincing. Where's the funny all-over-the-place-Sally we see most of the time? This solemnity is ill-befitting and makes me suspicious.


edit: xed with Agan and Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, not going to speculate about it... also noting, now Lommy's last post actually did look a bit better to me (more like her normal self).

++Nessa

Good Night.

[Thinlómien]

Eww it's late. I should vote and go to sleep.

But I have a problem - my wolf suspects are very very vague, one is based on a rather rnadom impression and the other on others' opinions. My cobbler suspects (Boro, Mith, Phantom) are much stronger, but it makes more sense to vote a possible wolf than a cobbler. But on the other hand, rather vote a probable cobbler than a person you don't really suspect. Grr. Need to think.


edit: xed with Legate

[Aganzir]

Now I almost regret saying Lommy looks more innocent. I think it's far-fetched to put ed in the innocent category - she certainly has done little to make me think her innocent even if she hasn't been actively suspicious either (except her "Oh dear poor Shasta" thing which I don't particularly like because newbie wolves often feel very self-conscious about the kill or about being wolves in general and feel the need to express it in some way).

And I honestly don't see why Nessa is being suspected so heavily so I don't quite get why Lommy is getting wolf vibes from her (especially as she admits to feeling the same way about her). Granted, I wasn't suspicious of her last time she was a wolf, either - she just seems like the kind of player I accept with "that's just how she is" even if she is being suspicious.
And sally is busy which should explain the absence of the funny sally.

[satansaloser2005]

PAGES ONE THROUGH THREE....gah, this is going to take forever....


In some ways this situation is a curse for the wolves. Whenever you have roles revealed at death, the wolves have the night to concoct whatever story they want, because everyone now knows the person's role. And the wolves can spin the lynch however they want. "How did that bandwagon happen against Glirdan yesterday! There must be a wolf in that evil wagon!" (when really it's just a false lead because as everyone would now know Glirdan's role) However, not getting the role at the person's death, means the wolves can't manipulate any information from the lynch, because to the non-wolves there is no info for the wolves to manipulate.

I think this is both true and misleading. The wolves will still use everything to their advantage. Since we don’t know roles, they could easily lynch me (for instance) and claim the next Day that I was clearly wolfish and that my wolfishness points to X, Y, and Z. They can’t manipulate the information, no, but they can more easily manipulate based on the lack of information.

Also, Boro mentioned twitter. Thus, he must die. ;)


1) The ability of the dead to detect wolves is triggered after three deaths (surely not counting the coavalta co-mods). In the normal way of things, there will only be two by tomorrow. Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

Re: #1. Oh, goodness, no. The only time I’d go for a multiple lynch is if we had a darn good chance of catching a wolf, and even then it could end poorly. What if we lynch two cobblers? They could influence the dead thread and get us pretty much no information whatsoever.

Re: #2. This is actually a good point. Too good, in fact. It’s good to think on wolf tactics, but this seems too much like a wolf planning ahead.

This is making me think that tangy Ang is more like fangy Ang.

A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage (as Gifteds who recognise each other have managed to do in the past). Cobblers are all very well, but they don't really know who they're helping; a wolf, especially if they were sacrificed in such a way that they looked very convincing, could do much more informed damage.

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

And a union of baddies in the dead thread can compromise what little information we can get. Cobblers, special information or not, are perceptive and can do more damage than we often realize.

And that? That just makes me....gah, wolf radar is pinging like mad. If you’re an ordo, you dying will do the village no good. If you’re a wolf, this serves your team a great advantage.



satansaloser2005 - fishy as a fish.

Impressive, especially considering that I hadn’t said anything at the time (except for my short post saying that I wouldn’t be back due to scheduling/internet issues). Yes. Terribly suspicious of me. :/


1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

What, yes!, and definitely(ish) respectively. I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Phantom, but our gifteds (at least our ranger) are better undead than unharmed. I’m almost tempted to say that the ranger should come out and be double lynched toDay, but there are too many problems with the plan to even begin to count. If our ranger was brave and selfless, however, I’d totally be up for it. At the same time, however, it would be better to sacrifice the ranger at a later time, so they could bring back the most information possible from the dead thread. Save more people or bring us more information? It’s up to us to decide which is more valuable.

Not to mention that the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living, and if the voting weight is repeated on the same person, that will be a sign that the dream from the previous night was a Wolf (or died), which also could help.

Also, plans could be made on the Dead Thread and passed up to the Living, such as, "Tell them that so-and-so is getting dreamed tonight when I dream, and if that person doesn't receive the extra vote the following day then they must be a Wolf." Are you following me with this, or am I completely off base and forgetting something obvious?

He continues to make scarily good sense (see underlined). The only problem is catching the correct balance between when to do that. The seer dreaming the dead is just as useful as them dreaming the living. If we could figure out a way to keep a steady information flow, I think a dead seer could be just as useful as a living one.

Here’s a different plan. Why couldn’t the seer dream of the person we lynched every Day, and we could work out a system to evaluate guilt or innocence that way? Sure, we’d be on a delay, but it’d be better than no information at all.

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Aaand, that's all I've got. It's better than math for a first post though, huh? We all know where that went :Merisu: Not to mention the dead thread would probably break my calculator.

This just screams wolf to me, and you can’t convince me otherwise. It’s like she’s concocted the perfect friendly cute useless but hoping to be helpful post. Wolf! Wolf!


Ang probably wouldn't have made the suggestions on double-lynches or speculations about wolves willing to send one of them to Mandos if he was a wolf. Too attention-grabbing and wrong.

Wolves can attention grab if they want to. I’m just sayin’.


I'm afraid the loads of different revelations will be one of our major headaches in this game. Remember, it may be we learn nothing from lynching or saving someone who reveal, whatever that person reveals.

Which actually brings me to a point of actually suggesting quite openly something to everyone as howe to play.

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.

Having not read the rest of the thread, I’m not yet sure what I think about the whole Nog reveal thing, and thus I will say that I could see this either as being a bait for gifteds to reveal so they can kill them or as a plea for no false reveals so that he doesn’t have to counter (thus signifying his giftedness). I’m not ready to go one way or the other yet because....darn, I need to catch up.


Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

Sneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeerk.


I'm positively stumped about who to vote. Everyone seems so ambiguous!

This seems too strange as well. “Oh no, look at me, I’m so helpless and don’t know what to do!”


I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them. Yeah the gifteds are usually capable of thinking things through themselves, but saying something just to be on the safe side shouldn't hurt anyone.

Who are you and what have you done with Agan?


Long live the Cobblers?

Yes and no. Sorry, dear, but this isn’t so much in the sense-making category. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it would work. Wolf kills over cobbler kills, yes, but let’s not plan to keep baddies around just because they’re a lower class of evil.


My 'Blind Luck' game (from long, long ago) didn't reveal roles, which turned out to be a good thing because I was able to keep the fun going long after the village massacred my wolf team in the first two Days. The point of the game was to see who would be the last person standing, not so much the last team standing, and revealing roles would have messed that up entirely. But anyway, the point is that I didn't reveal roles and the village still successfully took out my wolves one after the other.

Tell me about it, princess. >.<





Would you all be super cross if I said I'd already decided who to vote for? :/

[Thinlómien]

I think it's far-fetched to put ed in the innocent category - she certainly has done little to make me think her innocent even if she hasn't been actively suspicious either (except her "Oh dear poor Shasta" thing which I don't particularly like because newbie wolves often feel very self-conscious about the kill or about being wolves in general and feel the need to express it in some way).That's just how she seems to me, call it a gut-feeling or something. I might also be just biased because I have the impression of her as Winnie the Pooh stuck in my head (apologies if this is insulting, but I personally adore Winnie the Pooh)! And, I just don't suspect her, simple as that. I don't get why my thinking her innocent is so suspicious.

And I honestly don't see why Nessa is being suspected so heavily so I don't quite get why Lommy is getting wolf vibes from her (especially as she admits to feeling the same way about her). Granted, I wasn't suspicious of her last time she was a wolf, either - she just seems like the kind of player I accept with "that's just how she is" even if she is being suspicious.Read through the points raised against her, and you'll see they are valid enough if not brilliant. Anyway, I'm now personally going to check her posts to see if I have been talked into suspecting her or if she really is fishy. So Ms Nitpick you'll get an update on the topic soon. ;)

And sally is busy which should explain the absence of the funny sally.Yes but even when she's here she's not funny. *grumble grumble*


edit: xed with a looong Sally... yay!

[the phantom]

Okay.... I'm here and trying to catch up!

Just post if there is anything that I need to know about right away or that you wish to ask me. I'll check the new posts every couple minutes.

[Thinlómien]

Phantom, you're pudding. That's all. :D

[satansaloser2005]

Wolf vibes
Sally - she hasn't been around much, but the little I've seen isn't entirely convincing. Where's the funny all-over-the-place-Sally we see most of the time? This solemnity is ill-befitting and makes me suspicious.

It's called "Sally doesn't have time to mess around". And I've posted what, three (four now) times? All of which were an explicit apology for not having more time to post? Straws, you are grasping at them. I can understand you being suspicious of me to a point, but to put me in your uber-wolf category? Insensible. And evil? :/


And sally is busy which should explain the absence of the funny sally.

This. Sorry, kids, but I don't have the webs/time to mess around looking for funnies. If I find them by accident, oh yeah, but I can't go hunting. :(


Back in a moment. One or two more "decent" posts from me and then I really need to go home. I feel as if I've not made the most of my nets time today, and it makes me all sad and guilty. I'll try to hit up a post from my phone later toNight. Vanilwa, try not to be a jerk about my inability to format/quote correctly, yeah? ;)

[satansaloser2005]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Fea (and the other deadites) needs to stop posting in the dead thread. That's three times this evening I've almost mistaken it for this thread. Thus, Fea is/was clearly evil. ;)


ETA: Happy now, Lommie? :p

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
Green. She feels too smooth, if you know what I mean, and there's something fishy about her voting (she seems to be choosing the easy path). I am concerned about her.
ed. Slipping under my radar, except for the bad-looking first post on day 2 (incidentally, I think it was Greenie who first brought it up, or if not first she's the one I remember).
Lottie. Feels slightly off although not as badly as on day 1.
Boro. Out of him and Lommy, he looks worse. It does look like he was trying to hint at her, and now that she's suspecting him because of it, trying to save his face.

INNOCENT
sally. I thought her innocent on day 1 and little has changed since, mainly because she hasn't posted much. I could have put her down as 'Either' but I would have felt bad about my innocent list being so short.
Glirdan. Saying Shasta reminded him of Seertanis doesn't necessarily make him evil in my opinion. His posts look genuine to me... but I am incredibly bad at reading Glirdy.
Nerwen. Has done nothing to merit suspicion so she's here although I know how good a baddie she can be.
phanty. There are things which speak in his favour (his day 1 vote working to prevent a potential multiple lynch, his points against Nog yesterday, etc). I am not convinced of his innocence but he looks good enough for now, and besides he won't be my problem after today. :p

EITHER
Legate. Tending innocent, but his insistence about a cobbler lynch benefiting the wolves more than us is weird. Last time I played with him, I disagreed with him but he kept giving me really innocent vibes which hasn't happened in this game.
Lommy. I keep flip-flopping on her. I understand the people who say she isn't being herself... but she isn't that different either, and why would she bus Boro if she thought they were baddies together?
wilwa. Not enough substance to form an opinion. What I've seen looks innocent, but see what I just said about her a couple of posts ago - she's capable of fooling anyone.
Mith. I honestly don't know about her. She always looks innocent to me, but people have been suspicious of her voting etc so I'm not confident enough to consider her totally innocent.
Nessa. I don't see why all this suspicion, but she hasn't done much to make herself look innocent.
Angu. I wasn't able to decide where to put him so he's quite literally here. I find it impossible to read him. I'd like to go through his posts but I have to leave for class in nine hours and I'd also like to get some sleep.

DEAD
Mänwe. Innocent enough, but why did he vote for himself instead of Nogrod? I will probably learn this toNight, but it will be too late.
Nogrod. Cobbler or wolf.
BG. Assuming ordo for now.
Fea. Innocent.

[Thinlómien]

Suspicious stuff Nessa has done, according to the posts I just read:
- is wishy-washy, doesn't really say much, is just merisuing around and acting confused
- wants to deadify helpful people (huh?)
- wants to be grateful dead (we should grant her that, eh? :p)
- on Day1 votes knee-jerkily AND to deadify someone AND apologises for it

Innocent-looking stuff she has done:
- her confusion is so over the top it might as well be unfeigned
- believes Nog (I think a wolf wouldn't have dared to support a seer reveal as questionable as Nog's)

So, basically, her Day1 was really fishy, Day2 a little less so. ToDay she hasn't posted much. I'm going to hang around a bit more, but if I don't get any brilliant inspiration or valuable new evidence, I'm just going to vote Nessa because I don't really have anything better to go on as I'd prefer voting someone I suspct of wolvery, not of cobblery. I think it's our safest bet toDay - and to be honest, rather her than me anyway! Not that it's necessarily going to be a question of that, but I won't be here until deadline.


edit: xed with Sallyx2 and Agan

[the phantom]

Phantom (this one I don't like, as he was urging it really purposefully, whereas an innocent should at least ponder that it does not have much of a sense to lynch Cobbler, that's exactly what they are here for)
Okay, so that's a total lie.

I was NOT wanting to lynch Nog at all at the start of the day, and even after he made his accusations I tried to engage him, but he refused to speak with me, then after things turned against him I specifically stated that I still wanted to lynch Lommy, and then later I specifically stated that I was not anxious to lynch him as that would be somewhat of a victory for a Cobbler! I was NOT hugely pressing his lynching, and in the end it was more a less a result of him being the only guaranteed baddie and there not being a viable option number two, as it would've required complete and total unity from all the remaining voters to put someone else past Nogrod.

So really, Legate, your "opinion" about what happened yesterday is just completely wrong. You're looking mighty suspicious the way you're creating false reasons for suspicion.
Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler.
Quite right. Fea seemed quite unevil to me throughout.

And that's disappointing news about Manwe. I was rather hoping we had lucked out on that one.

*continues reading*

[Thinlómien]

It's called "Sally doesn't have time to mess around". And I've posted what, three (four now) times? All of which were an explicit apology for not having more time to post? Straws, you are grasping at them. I can understand you being suspicious of me to a point, but to put me in your uber-wolf category? Insensible. And evil? :/Oh dear, I really seem to frustrate people by suspecting them in this game, don't I? As much as it pains me to admit this, it'll maybe comfort you Sallycakes that you were in the wolf category mostly because (possibly apart from Nessa) I'm suffering from a severe lack of suspects (disincluding possible cobblers of course). :rolleyes:

edit: xed with the phantom

[satansaloser2005]

BG. Assuming ordo for now.

Then why the modly note at the end of yesterDay? Or did I miss something?


Sorry, kids, but I've given up on the epic recap. I'll work on a post to hop up with come toMorrow at Dawn (whatever thread I may be relegated to at that time) but for now I'll just hop in with commentary here and there.


As of now, I'll be voting for Nessa. She never really got better in my eyes. >.<

[satansaloser2005]

Oh dear, I really seem to frustrate people by suspecting them in this game, don't I? As much as it pains me to admit this, it'll maybe comfort you Sallycakes that you were in the wolf category mostly because (possibly apart from Nessa) I'm suffering from a severe lack of suspects (disincluding possible cobblers of course). :rolleyes:

edit: xed with the phantom

Fair enough, darling. I wasn't really cross, just flustered and confused. *pets you*

[Thinlómien]

Ugh, it's almost 3am. Shall be off to brush me teeth and voting once I come back unless there's been lots of interesting posts meanwhile.

And that's disappointing news about Manwe. I was rather hoping we had lucked out on that one.Maybe I shouldn't say this because I voted him myself, but you're attitude strikes me as bafflingly optimistic - or maybe it's more like you said that just because you felt the need to comment on that somehow because you're so conscious of yourself because maybe you're a wolf yourself? Rather random, I know, but kind of a mindset thing which caught my attention.


edit: xed with Sally

[the phantom]

a fair point and makes Boro go quite high on my list of possible cobblers. (Alongside with Phantom, Glirdan, Lottie and several others. I wish I had as many wolf suspects.)
You only have Cobbler suspects because that's the only type of baddie you can legitimately help us look for, seeing as you're a Wolf.

I still stand by my accusation of Lommy on Day 1- here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647692&postcount=125).

If she's not dead by tomorrow I believe I may enter into single-minded crusade mode.

[satansaloser2005]

You only have Cobbler suspects because that's the only type of baddie you can legitimately help us look for, seeing as you're a Wolf.

I still stand by my accusation of Lommy on Day 1- here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647692&postcount=125).

If she's not dead by tomorrow I believe I may enter into single-minded crusade mode.


Easy, prince pudding. If she's a wolf, we'll catch her, but she won't be the only one, so don't get too single-minded.

[Aganzir]

Save more people or bring us more information? It’s up to us to decide which is more valuable.
No. If Glorfindel is killed now and comes back, there's very little new information he can give you and the wolves will grab the first opportunity to kill him for good. If he waits till later (before revealing, at least) till a lot more people are dead, he will be much more useful.

The seer dreaming the dead is just as useful as them dreaming the living. If we could figure out a way to keep a steady information flow, I think a dead seer could be just as useful as a living one.
Yes, at least when we're looking for connections between people. But if we want to lynch people, a living seer is better.

I’m not yet sure what I think about the whole Nog reveal thing
He was lying. You'll see why when you read further, but there's absolutely no way he was telling the truth.

Who are you and what have you done with Agan?
You mean, with the Agan who usually advises the gifteds herself? :p

I don't get why my thinking her innocent is so suspicious.
Because I think there's little reason to think her innocent, but I won't argue against gut-feelings.

Yes but even when she's here she's not funny. *grumble grumble*
Ahaha you're never happy now aren't you! :D

Then why the modly note at the end of yesterDay? Or did I miss something?
Whatever she was, she isn't anymore.

[satansaloser2005]

Agan's above post is full of win. That is all.



And yeah, I know BG is nothing now, but she clearly was before, at least by my reckoning.

[the phantom]

Oh, yes, and Fea is high on Nog's suspected list. :rolleyes:
Ha ha ha!

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited! :D

[Aganzir]

And yeah, I know BG is nothing now, but she clearly was before, at least by my reckoning.
Yes but we can't make much of it. The only person who talked about her was Mith who suggested we lynch her because she'd be modfired anyway. If she would've been a wolf, Mith looks better - especially in a game where the roles aren't revealed.

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited! :D
Phantom, sometimes I am very fond of you. :D

[Thinlómien]

Oooh Ooh!! I just got to the place in the thread where there are Lommy votes! I'm excited! :D*grits teeth* You know, if you're going to start a single-minded crusade against me, I'll be all for a single-minded crusade against you (which is probably not smart given that you're most likely just a cobbler yourself).

Ahaha you're never happy now aren't you!No. ;) She's become funnier, now, though, ha haa.

Anyway

++Nessa

for reasons previously stated. Good night!


edit: xed with Agan who likes all the nasty uncles who are mean to me :(

[the phantom]

Yeah... still think Boro's a Cobbler. If he's a Wolf playing Cobbler in order to survive then my hat is off to him. Sorry lad- it's just the impression that I've carried on from Day 1 and I haven't had a chance to hit the reset button, and I can't give you a better explanation than that.

Remembering her leading post from yesterday Daughter doesn't look great, but I kind of lost track of that in the action. She's a vote candidate for me I'd say.

Nessa... bleh... I really need to reread all of her stuff. For some reason I really don't have an impression of her at all. It's a bit unsettling.

Wilwa? How much has she been around this game? And Sally? Are we going to seed more of you?

I've lost my bearings on Green and Lottie, so, similarly to Nessa, I need to reread them. I've gotten good and bad from them I remember, but can't point to specifics.

[Aganzir]

edit: xed with Agan who likes all the nasty uncles who are mean to me :(
If it's of any comfort, I also like it when you're mean to phantom (or Angu, or whoever you happen to be nasty to). :Merisu: I think it means I like mean people rather than just people who are mean to you. ;)

[satansaloser2005]

Okieday, time to vote.

++Nessa

She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her.

Phantom, I'll be around for quick bursts, but not too many long posts. I'll do what I can though, I promise. I have no idea where the muffin is though. :(



EDIT: x'd with Agan

[Mithalwen]

you [/I]have not been reading my posts properly or you're intentionally trying to make me look ridiculous.




"Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote"

This was the sentence after the one where Shasta says that Manwe has a wolf. You didn't have to read the rules carefully to get a fairly big reminder that the dead had started. So don't you get on your high horse with me when you have proved what I have said is true. You cannot claim both that you have read Shasta's post thoroughly AND that you were unaware of the dead vote starting.

I am not trying to make you look ridiculous. I am pointing out an inconsistency which is perfectly valid and as far as I can see I am on to something. I am now absolutely certain you are at least a cobbler.

[Aganzir]

I have been thinking about it, and the easiest way I could come up with is the one I mentioned briefly. Now I'd just like to hear opinions...

Basically, if the last player lynched (in case of a multiple lynch, the 1st to receive the highest number of votes) was not a wolf, we'll give the double vote to the player first on the player list, or if we don't trust her for one reason or another, the 2nd/3rd/etc. If the lynched player was a wolf, the last (or the 2nd/3rd/etc last) player gets the double vote the following day. If we do this, we should probably agree to stop when there's a set number of players left, say 6, because then the votes may have a much bigger influence.

We should probably just exclude possible seer information. If the seer reveals here, she can tell her dreams (except the last) to the village; if she dies before revealing, we have no way of letting the village know she was the seer.

I am aware people might disagree with me on the idea, saying they'd rather double the most innocent-looking player's vote, but I think it all comes down to how much we want to help the village. We can keep playing like we always have, vote for the person we like and leave the village wondering about why we chose her, or we can find a way to give them information.

The problems I can see with this are the baddies messing around, or the wolves basing their kills on who might get more votes. There are probably more but I'm not going to start thinking it through at this hour. Now the question is, do you think that (or something similar) is workable or is it too complicated/risky?

[the phantom]

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)

So.... Can anyone lay out the case against Nessa for me? I'm going to try and lynch Lommy if I can, but I'd still like to know why her opponent is in contention.

[Aganzir]

I suppose I could vote for Nessa, just because last time I didn't I lived to regret it. My top choice is Boro, though. I rather didn't lynch Lommy now, and if I had to choose between the two, I'd vote for Nessa because Lomz is more vocal and leaves therefore more trails. I suppose there isn't enough support for a Greenie lynch, and I don't have quite enough against ed to merit a vote. Hmm.

Going to take a shower now and will vote after it.

[Boromir88]

I might as well not even try anymore, since obviously every word typed out of my fingers is a hint of some devilry. (Beware! It's another hint! Ahh I did it again! :rolleyes: ) Love you as much as a I do Agan, if you say you know more about when I'm dropping hints to people than I do myself, you can't be surprised I'm going to disagree on that.

And Lommy, I never said anything about dropping your suspicions because you're a friend. I'm saying I thought I'd get better treatment, even if you were suspicious of me for good reason, and you wouldn't stand idly by for the vague feelings of guilt trumped up against me.

Yeah... still think Boro's a Cobbler. If he's a Wolf playing Cobbler in order to survive then my hat is off to him. Sorry lad- it's just the impression that I've carried on from Day 1 and I haven't had a chance to hit the reset button, and I can't give you a better explanation than that.

Yeah, because that is really going to help me and give me a fair shot to prove to you I'm not a cobbler nor a wolf. Thanks bud.

[the phantom]

Yeah, because that is really going to help me and give me a fair shot to prove to you I'm not a cobbler nor a wolf. Thanks bud.
You're not on the lynch menu currently, so you don't have to prove anything to me today. If we're both around next day I'll try and be better prepared to hash things out.

[Boromir88]

You're not on the lynch menu currently, so you don't have to prove anything to me today. If we're both around next day I'll try and be better prepared to hash things out.

Fair enough.

I should retire, even if I'm not on the "menu" today, I'm not liking where this is heading against Nessa, but can't do anything about that now other than get more grumpy.