Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Boro- why is Nessa under threat and why don't you like it?

People against Nessa- I'd like to hear your versions as well.

[Nessa Telrunya]

++Lommy

Because I don't want to die, and she has the closest number of votes. I do, however, feel like the cases against her are quite valid.

EDIT Xed with phantom: I'm just that tricksy, I suppose. Not to mention as grey as paint drying on a wall.

[Boromir88]

Boro- why is Nessa under threat and why don't you like it?

She's got 4 votes already and at least Agan is seriously considering voting her. Don't know where Shasta or others who haven't voted stand.

As to why I don't like it, it looks far to easy as I said in post 459:

I think Nessa's too easy of a target. Granted, that's what everyone said when she was a wolf previously, that she was getting framed, but then she fueled the idea she was getting framed. I think we tend to forget when you really don't have any information it's difficult to come up with some impeccable shiny-phantom idea. All you can really do is read what's posted, guess at who sounds good to you, which typically looks like you're just sitting back and going with the flow. Going with the flow is not really a solid reason to suspect someone of wolvery, and Glirdan, you shouldn't overlook the times when Nessa has added her own ideas.

and why I didn't like how there were attempts yesterday to get attention and pressure away from Nogrod onto Nessa. Since, I've been highly suspicious of Nog from basically his first post, I don't trust those who have tried to divert the pressure away from him and onto Nessa.

Edit: crossed with Nessa

[the phantom]

Wow, I guess I didn't realize how few posts Nessa had. I just reread them all.

And my basic impression? Cobblerish. Not Wolvish.

(x-post Boro)

[elronds_daughter]

I have the impression of her as Winnie the Pooh stuck in my head (apologies if this is insulting, but I personally adore Winnie the Pooh)!

Not insulting at all, dear. I think it's a lovely sentiment. :) (Though I'm trying not to let my sudden fondness of you colour my objectivity...)

People against Nessa- I'd like to hear your versions as well.

I concur. I'm not quite understanding why we don't like Nessa. (Do we ever? :rolleyes:)
Same for Lommy, please. I don't understand the reasoning behind that one either.

EDIT: x'ed with Boro and tp. Thanks for the concise explanation on Nessa.

[Nerwen]

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)

So.... Can anyone lay out the case against Nessa for me? I'm going to try and lynch Lommy if I can, but I'd still like to know why her opponent is in contention.

Well, this may seem hypocritical coming from the person who cast the first vote on her, but I'm rather surprised to see her get so many votes myself. I mean, it is a quite thin case– two dubious votes, plus what looks like an earlier attempt to deflect suspicion of Nogrod back on his accusers. And the business between Boro and Greenie over her. But then it's also true that it's hard to make a good case on anyone right now– I mean, case for wolvishness rather than cobblery.

I haven't ready beyond this last page yet, though, so I don't know what else has happened.

EDIT:X'd with numerous.

[the phantom]

Same for Lommy, please. I don't understand the reasoning behind that one either.
I wish to kill Lommy primarily because of the vibe she gave off with her Day 1 Cobbler pointing/instructions, and it seems to me she's continued to be unable to completely shake off that attitude because (so I think) she's a Wolf and thus finding Cobblers is the only help she can offer. And her comment about how Cobblers would have all sorts of brilliant stuff planned... just the way she said it made me think that it was almost a plea/demand "You'd better have some schemes to help us, Cobblers!"

Plus she's a Penguin.

[Mithalwen]

For me, well she isn't as I remember her being when innocent but since that feelingy stuff isn't helpful to third party, it always rings alarm bells when people stay stuff which patently isn't true. It isn't plausible that she could have read Shasta's post 411 thoroughly and not been aware of the dead starting to vote. If she had read it and been a suprised innocent then surely she would have checked the rules. Feigning ignorance of the situation is a wolf tactic I ahve encountered before I find it really suspicious, Trying to make it some kind of personal attack is simply evading the issue.

I just can't believe she is on the side of the angels and if a baddie I would say wolf because the cobblers would need Shasta's info for their own ends. The wolves already know who is a wolf,

[Aganzir]

Love you as much as a I do Agan, if you say you know more about when I'm dropping hints to people than I do myself, you can't be surprised I'm going to disagree on that.
Obviously. I'm not saying I know more but that it looked like it.

By the way, if you can't make up your mind you can always lynch me because I'm going to die today anyway. That way we could find out Nog's role without there being any other unknowns to check. ;)

Phantom, Boro, Nerwen, ed, Nessa, Mith - or whoever is around - what do you think about the message sending thing? Is it worth trying? I am obviously not going to push it, but I'm not sure I like that it's being ignored (especially by people who discussed earlier if there's any way to do it. Yes I'm talking about you, phantom). You had better speak up now because I can't promise we'll do anything you tell us to with the double votes (be it part of an ingenious plot or not) if we don't have a way to comment on it first.

++Boro

Because I don't particularly care if Nessa or Lommy dies. There are points for and against both, I guess, but because I don't have a very strong opinion on either, I'm not confident enough to sway it one way or other.

I trust my lover to take care of everything and make sure you don't do anything silly while I sleep. Going now, see you in the afterlife.

[Mithalwen]

Agan - the vote thing seems fine I only didnt' comment because I know I don't have the best strategic mind and someone who does might give a better opinion.

[Glirdan]

Not gonna lie, I did lol a bit at this, but still....

Plus she's a Penguin.

Yes phantom, because pointing that out is going to help your case.
:rolleyes:

I will try and check or Ms. Vanilwa has made off to.

As for the way the voting is going....I am pretty set on Nessa, but I still see the points that were raised against Lommy. The problem is neither of them are really screaming Wolf to me.

I don't know what to do at this point :(

[the phantom]

Agan- about your voting system...

You're saying that you'll always check whoever we lynch, and you will give extra votes to us based upon innocence and guilt, correct?

So, if we lynch person X and he is a Wolf, you will give power to the last person on the list, if we lynch person X and he's not a Wolf, you will give power to the first person on the list?

I think it may be helpful for a couple of days anyway, but if we commit to it the Wolves could just bump off people based upon name order so that one of them receives the extra votes each day, or at least so that one of them has a good shot at it. Particularly late in the game that could be dicey, so I'd say we should set a hard line end-date on it.

[the phantom]

Mith- who are you speaking of in #508?

(Sorry for being so disorganized today- have unexpected tasks that are dividing my attention here.)

[Mithalwen]

Sorry TP I was stating for the benefit of Elrond's Daughter why I was gunning for Lommy.

[the phantom]

I will try and check or Ms. Vanilwa has made off to.
Good. Because if this continues I'm going to want to lynch her. It's way too convenient "Oops, I didn't know we started!" and now keeping her head low to stay out of the fights. I don't like that sort of thing.

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)
Nessa ++ Lommy (3)
Agan ++ Boro

[Nerwen]

Agan- about your voting system...

You're saying that you'll always check whoever we lynch, and you will give extra votes to us based upon innocence and guilt, correct?

So, if we lynch person X and he is a Wolf, you will give power to the last person on the list, if we lynch person X and he's not a Wolf, you will give power to the first person on the list?

I think it may be helpful for a couple of days anyway, but if we commit to it the Wolves could just bump off people based upon name order so that one of them receives the extra votes each day, or at least so that one of them has a good shot at it. Particularly late in the game that could be dicey, so I'd say we should set a hard line end-date on it.

Yes... I can't see any other way of doing it, and yet that system could get derailed so easily (beyond the grave as well). Maybe just use it for one or two Days?

Anyway, Agan, make sure and let us know exactly what you plan to do before toDay's over.

EDIT:X'd since phantom at #513.

[Glirdan]

Good. Because if this continues I'm going to want to lynch her. It's way too convenient "Oops, I didn't know we started!" and now keeping her head low to stay out of the fights. I don't like that sort of thing.

Okay, I know this is total meta-reasoning, but here goes anyways. I think it would be a total waste to lynch her. For one, I know Wilwa better then she knows herself half the time and I usually can tell whether or not she's got a role. Her absence and lack of....shall we say enthusiasm (and because I know she has a LOT of stuff going on in RL)...leads me to believe in her innocence.

Second, if she does not post or vote two days consecutively, she will end up like BeiGei and getting modfired.

And Agan, I would have to disagree with your post earlier on my anaylsis of her for this reason. A Wolfwa wouldn't be this careless.

EDIT: xed with Nerwen

[the phantom]

Thinking back on the events of yesterday, at the time when Nessa sided with Nog and voted for me, there had already been some stiff resistance put up against him. Why would she not enter the debate at any point or await a resolution or anything but rather just swoop in with "I believe him" and vote?

In some games Wolves have been too eager to believe Seer claims because they want to look like they're on the right side. But in this case with the claim so hotly contested I don't think it works the same. Especially if she's a WW it doesn't work because she could've perhaps gained some credibility by siding against a perceived Nobbler, right? I don't think her move makes sense from a WW perspective, but perhaps it does if she's a Cobbler, as she would simply want to come down on the wrong side of the issue and perhaps did it so quickly and didn't wait so that it wouldn't look so bad? (I mean, if she had done it after Nog was outed then no way could she have gotten away with it, but at that time...)

Does that make any sense? Basically I'm saying she's probably not a Wolf, and maybe a bit more likely Cobbler than Innocent.

[Nerwen]

Thinking back on the events of yesterday, at the time when Nessa sided with Nog and voted for me, there had already been some stiff resistance put up against him. Why would she not enter the debate at any point or await a resolution or anything but rather just swoop in with "I believe him" and vote?

In some games Wolves have been too eager to believe Seer claims because they want to look like they're on the right side. But in this case with the claim so hotly contested I don't think it works the same. Especially if she's a WW it doesn't work because she could've perhaps gained some credibility by siding against a perceived Nobbler, right? I don't think her move makes sense from a WW perspective, but perhaps it does if she's a Cobbler, as she would simply want to come down on the wrong side of the issue and perhaps did it so quickly and didn't wait so that it wouldn't look so bad? (I mean, if she had done it after Nog was outed then no way could she have gotten away with it, but at that time...)

Does that make any sense? Basically I'm saying she's probably not a Wolf, and maybe a bit more likely Cobbler than Innocent.
I was thinking it could also have been a rather clumsy wolf-move, though. She's not all that experienced.

[Glirdan]

Oh, and as for your voting in the Mandos idea.....

To be quite frank, I didn't get it at first. The wording had me all muddled and it didn't help that there was the faintest hint of math in there (and you can ask dear Wilwa herself on how much I hate math and avoid it as much as possible) thus making me quite confused and reluctant to say anything.

But phantom has gone and kind of, cleared the air, so to speak....well kind of.

So before I give my opinion on anything, I just want to make sure I understand this properly.

Depending on who was up for lynching, if the person that was lynched was a Wolf, the last person on the list for being lynched will get the vote, and if the person lynched is innocent, the first person on the lynching list will get the vote? Am I understanding that right? Or am I still all muddled up?? :confused:

xed with phantom and nerwen

[the phantom]

Her absence and lack of....shall we say enthusiasm (and because I know she has a LOT of stuff going on in RL)...leads me to believe in her innocence.
That's what I mean. That's why it's a perfect strategy. And of course there is the chance that she has somehow found something more interesting than WW in her RL. Fat chance of that I know, but still, maybe just maybe there are other fun things to do? Football for instance?

And naturally bits of that aren't completely serious, but anyway, the way she came in late with the "oops" just really made me raise my eyebrows. If it's not a bit of strategy then it's certainly a bit of meta-game gamesmanship on her part that makes her look quite clean, which isn't exactly proper.

But yes, certainly if she's risking modfire it'd be silly to bother, and I hadn't planned on doing it today anyway. My strong words were meant more for her, along the lines of threatening her to play just in case she was just floating around out there watching.

[the phantom]

I think that's the idea, Glirdan. (I wasn't the one who came up with it, so I can't answer for certain.)

For instance, today... We sent down Nog yesterday. The dead check Nog overnight and if he comes up WW then the last person on the list (right now it's Shasta) gets the extra vote, which we would see in today's narration. If Nog comes up non-Wolf then Agan I believe gets the extra vote.

At least I think that's what Agan had in mind.

[satansaloser2005]

Dumb question regarding Agan's plan. What if we lynch Phantom (for instance) and he's a wolf with Wilwa? Or what if he's an innocent and Ang is a wolf? We could easily learn loads from beyond the grave but end up letting wolves steer the lynches as a result.

Maybe the village could decide on two people that we trust the most, and have them be the indicators, rather than simple alphabetical order? Of course if they die, we have to select new people, but I like it better than it just being the alphabet. At the same time, if Wilwa dies I'm at the end, and I know I'm innocent, so I'd be okay with having the power (:p), but to others it could still appear dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, princess. It's a good plan. I'm just worried about how it'll pan out.


ETA: make that Greenie, not Ang. But still.

ETA #2: Forget what I said about the alphabet. I'm a dork. Insert list for alphabet. Sorry. :/

[the phantom]

Wait, what if there's a double-lynch some day. Which player will the Dead check?

Unless someone else comes up with something, how about we just say the FIRST to reach their final vote total is checked by the Dead. Oh- and just so we have this straight, we will consider the extra vote to be cast at the same time as the regular vote of the person with the extra voting power.

[Boromir88]

Depending on who was up for lynching, if the person that was lynched was a Wolf, the last person on the list for being lynched will get the vote, and if the person lynched is innocent, the first person on the lynching list will get the vote? Am I understanding that right? Or am I still all muddled up?? :confused:

I've been confused about it too, but from how I read it.

Agan says in the Dead thread, the person who gets lynched will be the one they vote on and to check their role. (This makes sense to me, since Manwe's been found to not be a wolf at least. Shasta and Fea clearly aren't wolves, and I don't think Fea's a cobbler. Agan will also be in the dead thread, so this puts solid control of the thread in innocent hands).

Now. In order to send information from the person we lynch they will double-vote based on the living-player list (not the lynch-list). If wolf, the person last on the living list will get the double vote. If not wolf, the person first on the living-list will get the double vote. In a sense then there is a delayed transfer of information. Since we won't discover whether the first, or last name on the living list got the double-vote until the next days lynch. But still it's a way to transfer info from the dead thread to the living about prior lynches without having to lose and rely on Glorfindel.

I can't think of a better idea right now. And at least for tomorrow, with the dead thread being firmly in innocent control I say go for it. I can see the risk once the living list gets low, and the dead thread possibly isn't controlled by the innocents. However, if that's the case then we're doing a good job as it is in lynching baddies.

I echo the others in let us know clearly how long and the plan, Agan, so we don't botch and mis-read the transfer of info from the dead to the living.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Glirdan's post

Edit 2: Glirdan should be bolded there, but accidently wrapped his name in quotes. Oh well, I liked it.

[Mithalwen]

You could make it odds and even places on the list to give less scope for the wolves to anticipate the votee and give thedead more flexibility?

[elronds_daughter]

I don't quite understand this vote-related system of communication (but that's probably my fault for not having time to read thoroughly). But as long as it makes sense, it's fine by me.

Anywho. Must run soon, so...

++ Lommy

Because despite her endearing comparison of me to Pooh, she seems (to me, at least) to be playing oddly.

Besides, if it turns out she's innocent, she's one of those "helpful ghost" candidates.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a double-lynch. That would be bad. Ugh.

[wilwarin538]

That's what I mean. That's why it's a perfect strategy. And of course there is the chance that she has somehow found something more interesting than WW in her RL. Fat chance of that I know, but still, maybe just maybe there are other fun things to do? Football for instance?

And naturally bits of that aren't completely serious, but anyway, the way she came in late with the "oops" just really made me raise my eyebrows. If it's not a bit of strategy then it's certainly a bit of meta-game gamesmanship on her part that makes her look quite clean, which isn't exactly proper.

But yes, certainly if she's risking modfire it'd be silly to bother, and I hadn't planned on doing it today anyway. My strong words were meant more for her, along the lines of threatening her to play just in case she was just floating around out there watching.

Sitting back and pretending to forget that the game is going on, and willfully not participating, is not a strategy I have ever, or will ever use. Not playing in order to skim by without suspicion is a way of cheating in my eyes, and I wouldn't ever do that. I honestly totally thought it was still Night time, the last two days have been so crazy they must have just muddled all up into feeling like 1 really long day in my mind.

I do have a lot on my plate right now, and Glirdan is the only person on the entire planet who understands the full extent of it. I didn't expect it all to effect this so much, I actually thought this game would be a way to get my mind off it, but I just find myself forgetting about the game instead. I'm really sorry about that, because this game has amazing players and a fantastic concept, and I was really excited to play. I'm especially sorry because the next two Days fall on my 2 busiest days of the week, and I know for a fact that I will not be able to come on at all toMorrow, and probably very little the Day after. I'm tempted to just let myself get modfired, but I don't think that would do much good for the village, and I already feel bad enough about my lack of participation, I don't want to make things worse by decreasing our numbers.

So since I can't make an informed decision for a vote, seeing as how I've barely had the chance to skim through toDay, I'm probably going to copy either Shasta or Agan's vote, since they are the only two I know I can trust. At least that way my vote is more like giving one of them an extra vote, since an uneducated vote by me could cause more damage. It's the best I can do, and I'm really sorry I can't be of more use.

x'ed with e_d

[the phantom]

You could make it odds and even places on the list to give less scope for the wolves to anticipate the votee and give thedead more flexibility?
Yes, I like that!

Now about multi-lynches- what about today? It's very close between Lommy and Nessa. If they end up 1 vote apart they could very well be doubled. If they end up tied then almost certainly only one will be lynched (and who knows which?). How worried should we even be about a double? I mean, I'm thinking even if Nessa is up by two when I vote I'll still want to take a shot at Lommy seeing as I suspect her. It would be kind of pointless for me not to try and give her the possibility of being lynched if I just plan on trying again tomorrow, right?

Or is this a case where the loser should just swallow it and do what is possible to avoid the double? The later we get in the game the more pointless it seems trying to dodge doubles seeing as the liklihood of hitting a WW is higher at this stage. Yes?

[Mithalwen]

Obviously if we do that Agan needs to say which list they use. Since the answere is statistically less likely to be wolf than not I suggest they use the living list for the day which means they can vary who they choose rather than their most trusted player being on the wrong side if they say used the original unchanging sign up list.

[Glirdan]

OH!! Okay, we mean on the dead thread list!! Got it!! :) Okay, makes more sense when you explain it with names lol :D

And in that case, I am much more inclined to agree with phantom and Nerwen and say that we need to set a deadline on how long this will go for, because, as pointed out already, as the list of the living gets shorter, the easier it will be for the Wolves to manipulate this to their own agendas.

EDIT: xed since phantyphaces explanation to me

[Loslote]

I like Agan's plan, even more so with Mith's alteration.

So the lynch is between Lommy and Nessa? I'm leaning a little bit towards Nessa, but I wouldn't protest a Lommy lynch, either. I'll look over them again and vote in a few minutes.

EDIT: xed with Mith and Glirdy

[Mithalwen]

If it helps TP I can't really get beyond Lommy. I would be uneasy voting otherwise today.

[the phantom]

Another thing about our Dead-plan... The dead vote to do checks at Night, so, I assume that they'll begin with whichever person we lynch today? If so, that means they won't check Nog, right?

Is that okay, since we are guessing Cobbler?

[Mithalwen]

++Thinlomien

For reasons specified.

[satansaloser2005]

I much prefer the odds and evens idea. All hail the Grey Queen. :D


Also, I just read the Nog circus in full detail. I may die of how awesome that whole thing was....

[Glirdan]

Now about multi-lynches- what about today? It's very close between Lommy and Nessa. If they end up 1 vote apart they could very well be doubled. If they end up tied then almost certainly only one will be lynched (and who knows which?). How worried should we even be about a double? I mean, I'm thinking even if Nessa is up by two when I vote I'll still want to take a shot at Lommy seeing as I suspect her. It would be kind of pointless for me not to try and give her the possibility of being lynched if I just plan on trying again tomorrow, right?

Or is this a case where the loser should just swallow it and do what is possible to avoid the double? The later we get in the game the more pointless it seems trying to dodge doubles seeing as the liklihood of hitting a WW is higher at this stage. Yes?

I personally think a double toDay could be a very bad idea seeing as we're loosing Agan on top of whoever we lynch. If we do a double today, we risk loosing three innocents in one shot. I personally am very torn between both and don't know who to decide....I'm leaning more towards Nessa seeing as I have more reason to suspect her and I haven't looked closely at Lommy over the past couple of days. I'll give it a few more minutes before I vote.

PS:Vanilwamuffinface, I love you lots and if you need to talk to me, text me <3

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)
Nessa ++ Lommy (3)
Agan ++ Boro
ElDau ++ Lommy (4)
Mith ++ Lommy (5)

Can anyone guess who has the extra vote today? Agan or Shasta I assume?

[Loslote]

I'm definitely leaning more towards Nessa. There are a lot of points where Lommy strikes me as quite innocent, and none where Nessa does so. I'll wait and see if she's got enough more votes than Lommy, though - Glirdy makes a good point about no double lynches.

EDIT: xed with TP

[Boromir88]

Another thing about our Dead-plan... The dead vote to do checks at Night, so, I assume that they'll begin with whichever person we lynch today? If so, that means they won't check Nog, right?

Is that okay, since we are guessing Cobbler?

With either Nessa or Lommy lynched today. Do you think it would be more beneficial to find out whether they're a wolf or not, or Nogrod?

Even if somehow he turns out to be a wolf, I don't know how much we learn from Nog's posts, since he was acting like a cobbler by randomly talking out of his rear end. (No offense Nog).

[Mithalwen]

Is shasta likely to vote now? If not bit of a waste .. not that it communicates so much today

[the phantom]

With either Nessa or Lommy lynched today. Do you think it would be more beneficial to find out whether they're a wolf or not, or Nogrod?
I think we probably learn more from today's lynch. Or at least I think I would learn more.

[Glirdan]

Okay, I'm voting.

++Nessa

For my reasons stated in my Nessalysis, but to do a recap:

She's been very one line posts with no substance and very few thoughts of her own, mainly just tail-coating off everything that other people have said. I don't like it, and it's a tactic used to often by newbie wolves.

[Boromir88]

I think we probably learn more from today's lynch. Or at least I think I would learn more.

I agree. But I would feel much better if Agan or someone who will be in the dead thread would confirm who they're going to check.

[Mithalwen]

I think we probably learn more from today's lynch. Or at least I think I would learn more.

Concur.

[Loslote]

So Nessa and Lommy are both tied at five. Who's left to vote?

EDIT: xed with Boro and Mith

[wilwarin538]

Even if this won't do much, if I don't vote I'll get modfired tomorrow (since I can't come on next Day). Just copying Agan...

++Boro

Again, really sorry! You have no idea. :confused:

[the phantom]

Well, it's definitely down to Nessa and Lommy, and now's the time to stick to the guns. We'll know soon enough what our bullet hit-

++ Lommy

If Nessa ends up lynched instead, then I guess it'll be another day of Lommy pushing tomorrow, heh heh. :D

[Mithalwen]

Since Agan won't be back and Shasta isn't around shall we tell them to use odd number placement on the day's living list for wolf and even for non-wolf for their double vote? Seems clearest and least vulnerable solution?

[Loslote]

Okay then:

++Nessa

because I prefer her as a candidate to Lommy.

EDIT: xed since my last - :eek: Are there retractions??

[Rikae]

The elves agreed that Nessa and Lommy were the most suspicious. The two were blindfolded, tied back to back, and dragged to the the fire. "Wait!" cried Beren. "I have a double vote, and I want to kill Boromir88!"
Everyone looked at him blankly for a moment, then turned back to the trussed-up Lommy and Nessa. "Perhaps we should put apples in their mouths?" a voice called from the back, but when the others looked around, everyone had the same expresson of shock and disgust. "Well, on with it, then..."
With that, Lommy and Nessa were shoved unceremoniously into the center of the fire. When their screams died down and the smell of burnt flesh began to dissipate, there was nothing particularly wolfish, cobblerish or innocentish about their charred skeletons (although Nog's voice could be heard on the wind, crying "cobblers are innocents!")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
And at last the night fell on the lost Elves of Ard-galen. The stars rose to greet the brave and guide them into gracious sleep. Beren and Lúthien laid down as well, knowing that they shall not wake where they drifted off. So there was some silent mourning among the Elves, to see Lúthien pass away once more. But all knew that she had done the part Eru had foreseen for her.

The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya

It is now Night 4. Do your thing.

[the phantom]

The Voting:

Nerwen ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Boro ++ Lommy (2)
Legate ++ Nessa (2)
Lommy ++ Nessa (3)
Sally ++ Nessa (4)
Nessa ++ Lommy (3)
Agan ++ Boro
ElDau ++ Lommy (4)
Mith ++ Lommy (5)
Glirdan ++ Nessa (5)
Wilwa ++ Boro (2)
TP ++ Lommy (6)
Lottie ++ Nessa (6)

(Guess it'll be determined by who has the extra vote.)

[Rikae]

When the elves awoke, they were surprised and relieved to find their numbers the same as when they had retired. Perhaps the evil had been vanquished, all the possessed sent to their deaths? Or maybe the spirits that had warped the minds and bodies of their companions had simply vanished, leaving their former hosts bewildered and riddled with guilt, but no longer wolves at all?
It could have been so, but the area of trampled grass near the place where many of them had slept suggested otherwise. The tracks crossed and tangled with one another, but some were like those of a wolf, and some were not. It appeared a battle had taken place while they had slept, too worn out from the horrors of the last three days to be awakened by the noise.



The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya

It is now Day 4.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, who gets the cookies?

....

....

Don't answer that out loud.



Anyway, excellent! Now, who's up for killing fAng? ;)


ETA: I'm totally going to bed now. If the weather is awful, I won't be going to work and I'll make an epic post or two. If I can make it to work, I'll be quick bursts again, as I've actually had things to do. Behave while Mummy's resting her eyes, yes please?

[Glirdan]

This is a nice turn of events. :) It means that one of us has a known innocent under our belts....well, a known non-wolf anyways.

Oh, and just as a reminder from Ms. Wilwa that she will most likely not be around whatsoever toDay.

[Nerwen]

Nice work, Mr Glorfindel!:cool:

Now, I'm wondering– is it safe to assume that Shastanis Lúthien and Beranzir are going to use Mith's odd-even plan?

EDIT:X'd with Glirdan.

[Mithalwen]

Good choice Glorfy. But I am not going to try to stay awake now so back to zzzzz

[the phantom]

Well then- Glorfindel possibly has a play up his sleeve now- the identity of a non-Wolf. And since he can come back from the dead to prove his claim, that person will be a proven innocent.

Let's say he reveals both himself and his target. That person dies tonight, as that is the guaranteed kill (Glorfy can't protect him twice in a row). The following night the Wolves have to go after Glorfy and he protects himself (another foiled kill!), and then the next night they finally do kill him, but he simply returns again, only with double protections! The first night he will probably protect himself, as the Wolves will likely feel obligated to try and off him two night in a row, for it is too great a gamble for them to risk being foiled by yet another protection (in other words, he's likely to foil another kill after returning).

So, basically what we have is FOUR nights amounting to ONE kill (the Wolves selecting Glorfy all four nights in a row). Or at least that is the percentage play given the impossibility of the Wolves winning with Glorfy around at the end (they HAVE to kill him). Not to mention the Wolves will fear attempting to kill anyone besides Glorfy due to the fact that he may in a village this size foil them (especially once he has double protections) which would allow him to reveal to us yet ANOTHER proven innocent.

So we're sitting at a population of 12, and if we decide to limit to single lynches...
lynch: 11
kill last night's: 10
lynch: 9
fail kill Glorfy: 9
lynch: 8
kill Glorfy: 7
lynch (Glorfy back): 7
fail kill Glorfy: 7
lynch: 6
kill Glorfy: 5

I'd say that those protections stretch the game out nicely, yes? The question is, is such a tactic worth it, or would Glorfy be better served to try and stay hidden another day before revealing? If he takes that route, then his protection from last night certainly dies tonight if not lynched (he will no longer have that status protection), BUT he gains the advantage of existing with double protections in a smaller sized village later in the game, which is extremely powerful!

So, the question is, does anyone think it would be worth it for Glorfy to reveal IF it seems obvious that we are looking to lynch his protection from last night? Or should he just stay hidden no matter what? I'm of the opinion that we're unlikely to lynch his protection from last night, as that individual is likely to be a rather innocent looking sort.

UNLESS of course Glorfy protected HIMSELF last night, in which case I really think he ought to come out with it so we know not to lynch him and to trust him, because if he doesn't reveal the Wolves will simply kill him tonight anyway.

(x-post with all)
(edit numbers- forgot a night)

[the phantom]

Now, I'm wondering– is it safe to assume that Shastanis Lúthien and Beranzir are going to use Mith's odd-even plan?
I'm going to assume it.

[the phantom]

Looking back on the instructions it seems to me that the Dead checked Lommy last night (since she was the first to reach the total).

Did we ever specify if odds or evens meant guilty or innocent?

If not then we need to post that so that one of them on that thread can see it here before they start voting.

[the phantom]

And about the double lynch- honestly I'm not even a little bit sorry. Heh- I actually wasn't expecting the double due to the fact that there was the extra-vote power out there (I completely forgot the fact that Agan hadn't voted either of the top two candidates, plus Shasta didn't vote, and those two were pretty well guaranteed to have the power) but I'm glad I finally offed Lommy, and I'm anxious to see what she was.

As far as Nessa... We ought to debate tomorrow (or late today after the vote is decided) if we'd rather have our latest lynch checked or her, but that's not an issue for now.

[Nerwen]

Looking back on the instructions it seems to me that the Dead checked Lommy last night (since she was the first to reach the total).

Did we ever specify if odds or evens meant guilty or innocent?

If not then we need to post that so that one of them on that thread can see it here before they start voting.

Since Agan won't be back and Shasta isn't around shall we tell them to use odd number placement on the day's living list for wolf and even for non-wolf for their double vote?

So, if they follow that, then a double-vote to any of the following would mean "Lommywolf!": Glirdan, Elra, Lottie, Legate, phantom or Mith.

[the phantom]

So, if they follow that, then a double-vote to any of the following would mean "Lommywolf!": Glirdan, Elra, Lottie, Legate, phantom or Mith.
Okay, yes, let's go ahead and agree to that right now, plain to see.

ATTENTION DEAD PEOPLE!!

If Lommy is a Wolf, give an extra vote to one of these-
Glirdan
Elrond's Daughter
Lottie
Legate
Phantom
Mith

[the phantom]

All right- time for me to start getting ready for sleep. I have to get up early and shovel... Ugh...

[Loslote]

Well, well, well. :p

I didn't mean to tie the vote there yesterDay, and I did make a rather odd face there (something along the lines of o.O, only more so), but Glorfy's save sort of evened out the numbers a teensy bit. I consider it a good exchange, really - someone who could have been a wolf was killed instead of someone who couldn't have. So, all in all, I'm a lot less head-bang-y than I was at the end of yesterDay.

EDIT: xed with Phantoms

[Glirdan]

Okay, I've kept my eyelids open long enough now that I can't keep them open any longer and my brain is mush thus making me incapable of proper thought formulation. I"m going to bed now. I'll be back later in the Day.

PS: I'll be voting early toDay as I have to work till right up to DL.

[Boromir88]

I take this to mean Glorfindel made a good save last night! *and there was much rejoicing...yay*

This nullifies that double-lynch yesterday *glares at phantom and Lottie*.

Ok, so the dead convened yesterday and the unknown options would have been Nessa, Lommy, Nog, and Fea. Correct?

Late in the DL Agan came up with a plan to transfer information from the dead thread to us, by finding the identity of the player we lynch the previous day. And for extra insurance in case of a double-lynch it would be the first person who reached in lynch vote. This would make it Lommy.

I know no one's going to believe me when I say it, but I'm neither cobbler nor wolf. We can make use of what the dead found out yesterday if we are clear about the hint we want. The time for debating this is over and done yesterday, we got to get moving. If I know Agan, she's going to be a drill sergeant, so unless the threads been hijacked by Nog and taken over by baddies. Her and Shasta will get done what we want, and unless the innocents have gone insane or just stopped participating, we can trust the dead if we listen to them.

The buck stops here, this is what we're doing. Mith's idea with the odds and evens is perfect. And for extra insurance, so that the lynch today has NO effect on the hint the dead give us...

Dead people. If Lommy's a wolf, make your vote for one of the odds players on the living list that Rikae posted to started the day. If she's not a wolf, make it an even player.

Edit: crossed with several...including Nerwen and phantom's messages for the dead. Looks like we all have come to the same decision. Good.

One more thing before sleepy time...Glorfy. Reveal when you want to, don't listen to phantom.

[Boromir88]

I lied.


As far as Nessa... We ought to debate tomorrow (or late today after the vote is decided) if we'd rather have our latest lynch checked or her, but that's not an issue for now.

No. It's best if we tell the dead exactly what we want now. Leaving to decide this later in the day will only clutter up the lynch, and also make it easier for any baddies to mess up and put an end to Agan's plan.

If you want to wait to see if you think it would be better to let Nessa go and the dead check who we lynch today. Fine. But I say we tell them the plan now.

What I mean is, EVERYONE, and I mean everyone. Besides just making your lynch vote, tell the dead who you want to check.

I suggest. "Dead ones. Check ______" (insert Nessa or Today's lynch)

Dead people. Go by majority rules. If it's a tie, go by the person who first reached the vote.

Agree this is a straight forward plan the dead can follow? Excellent. Moving on...

[Mithalwen]

Glad as I am that I have said something sensible for once, it does occur that we could totally eliminate any wolf anticipation by just stating the criteria for the day depending on who we have left - There are lots of ways of doing it someone with numbers in name, one word name.... but for today odds and evens is just fine. Of course we don't have to vary the system at all but if pointing out we could stymies a wolftrick :D


Are we going to refine it to make clear if Lommie or Nessa or is that too limiting?

[Mithalwen]

Ah so there was a def agreement in case of a double lynch, okies. Well I shall be out for a few hours this morning but on past form will be quiet anyway.

[Mithalwen]

Helloooooooooooooooooooo? I know Ang has had tecnical difficulties via FB ..suppose not alone...

[Anguirel]

Right. Well, sorry about that hiatus within the non-hiatus. It has been, though, quite helpful for my point of view in retrospect; very rarely am I accorded an insight in a werewolf game which is not a bit deranged by me being in the thick of it. Now I can peruse a whole day of 'control'.

I was concerned after a couple of re-readings by just how much mob rule went on during the day of the double-lynching. Very few candidates were seriously proposed, and of course even fewer voted for. Nessa got half a quorum deciding against her before she had said anything (although admittedly partly because she hadn't). phantom said he thought her more cobbler than wolf. I thought that sounded sensible at the time but actually, that is the most passive and uninfluential way to play a cobbler. I reckon there's a slim outside chance she was a silent Mata Hari wolf, but that more likely the situation was Manwe all over again.

Neither, after some thought, did I like what happened to Thinlomien much, although it was even more unstoppable than Nessa, in a different way. Nessa had none but the most threadbare of defences; Lommy somehow enacted just enough of a defence to convince several big guns, otherwise mutually disunited, that she was lying (I'm thinking Boro, phantom, Mith). Not so sure myself. Her attitude reminded me of me. "So what, wolfy," you might respond, and I suppose that's a valid enough question.

But when one is in fact innocent, the mod has handed one a powerful but double-edged weapon - the absolute conviction of inner (sometimes self-) righteousness. Wolves (and cobblers) can try and imitate this feeling's outward radiation, but they never get it quite right. Cf Nogrod, I think. Whereas in my view Shasta, wilwa and Mith have taken that stand, this game, in ways that convinced me, amongs others, then and now. Obviously Shasta now matters less but I remain pretty confident about the other two.

I say that this inner glow of innocence is double-edged, and that it can be self-righteous, because it makes innocents liable to be defensive. They feel frustrated at their attackers because they know they are truthful, and it's tempting to launch into a retaliatory crusade in turn, where innocents hang each other all over the shop. As an innocent (in this case) who enjoys thinking, and is conscious of sounding, like a wolf (cf Fea, Aganzir), I am subject to a related but different problem - I tend to clear people who accuse me too easily, because I know it is reasonable to accuse me.

I shall therefore try to be quite even-handed about Sally, in negative as well as positive ways. She has brought up a persistent, undercoloured, half-jocular thought about me despite not having me to bounce off and react to about it (as Thinlomien got reacted against by her accusers.) She maintains that case into today despite considerable new event - a voting pattern, a double-lynch and a successful Glorfindel save. I can't remember whether she knows I'm a person people like to lynch, but against someone largely absent, I wouldn't call it the boldest of manouevres. I will give it this, though: it's quite original at the moment, more so than either of yesterday's candidates.

So much for Sally, who is one of my suspicions but certainly not supreme among them. That honour goes to Loslote. I believe her implication that she caused the double-lynch by accident, but her stress on this accident, a preemptive fanning off of blame, looks really bad. Also, read her posts yesterday's and no one else's. The consistency of wolf-perspective they show, given their rarity and brevity, is really noticeable. On the whole then I think her guilty of murder rather than of shoemaking. A cobbler wouldn't have bothered to try and excuse that double-lynch to her extent. I would like to lynch Loslote today well ahead of anyone else.

phantom is as so often in a sort of architecturally integral position, where no one has the spirit or strength to conduct archaeological research on him because the operation is megalithic, inconvenient, and a bit dangerous. Unfortunately I myself am firmly in that "no one." I don't want to lynch him yet (and that's a phrase that keeps coming up about him; Boro and Elron both said something of the kind yesterday). I will say this though - I disapprove of his ironclad set of instructions to the dead. We all need absolute flexibility to adapt to new situations, not further rules in a heavily ruled game...

Mith's amendment was therefore helpful as far is went, but it only diluted what I think is innately a bad idea. (I was uneasy too with the number of people who loudly OKed it; the expressive enthusiastic support of a detail; like constitutional reform supporters in other political struggles, they seemed technical, weird and playing a long game...)

Finally, a few observations on the few voices that seem to defy the convention wisdom - even if sometimes very oddly. sally's casually intent pursuit of me is one example. Legate's position that lynching Cobblers is a bad thing (the heir of Nogrod's theory) and overt suspicion of phantom is another. A Little Green, even more radically, still wonders whether Nogrod was perhaps truthful. Glirdan's defence of wilwa is strong, well expressed and convincing - even if arguably only a wolf has the knowledge to be so persuasive.

I think much of the stuff in that last paragraph is mistaken on specifics, but all the same if we want to face the full range of possibilities we need more thinking like it.

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

[Anguirel]

(as you can see, I'm afraid I think we still haven't caught a real wolf, though we may be down a cobbler or two. One of those cobblers is isolated in Mandos, more or less in the open, so we can probably count on quite helpful support from the Dead right now. But the population is dipping worryingly.)

I'm sorry the above is so antisocial to read, as well. I had a lot to say and had been prevented, first by my bodyclock then by the aether, from saying it...

And, please speak up lords and ladies. Some of our most vocal debaters are dead now. On this thread as well as theirs. (Now I'm starting to imagine them as Oxford and Cambridge...)

[Mithalwen]

But Lommies "defence" of my point was totally unconvincing. Apart from the fact that it was completely inconsistent, I find feigning ignorance of the rules supremely suspicious. One think to miss an in game post but the rules are upfront and accessible. Apart from the fact it is a basic cursory to the mod to read them it always seems so disingenuous to ask rather than to go and check too "oh I am too innocent and ordinary to have to worry about the technicalities".

[Anguirel]

I'm feeling extremely sympathetic to a disillusioned attitude to the technicalities.

This plan re: lynching and double votes, for example. I don't get one major thing: it seems to assume that wolf for wolf votes won't happen. Isn't that crazy?

But really I just hate plans, on principle. They mean we end up having to talk about boring mechanics instead of wild psychoanalytical speculation.

[elronds_daughter]

...too "oh I am too innocent and ordinary to have to worry about the technicalities".

I agree with you on this.

And Ang, your tome was one of the easier ones to read through. I found it helpful.

Not much for opening thoughts, I know.... I'm not sure how "okay" I am with the double-lynch. Glad the Lommy-enigma (she always is, to me) is gone, yes. But Nessa? I'm not sure.

I disapprove of his ironclad set of instructions to the dead. We all need absolute flexibility to adapt to new situations, not further rules in a heavily ruled game...

Mith's amendment was therefore helpful as far is went, but it only diluted what I think is innately a bad idea. (I was uneasy too with the number of people who loudly OKed it; the expressive enthusiastic support of a detail; like constitutional reform supporters in other political struggles, they seemed technical, weird and playing a long game...)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Or rather, I'm not sure why devising a (very simple) system for communicating with the Dead concerns you. We can't count on the Lovers or Glorfy (that would just be bad sense tactically), so it makes sense that we ought to have a method of communication. And I don't see how it's "ironclad". We can always change it, if change is agreed upon. Or if it seems like the extra-vote-getters are not going to vote well. It's not a rule, just a system.

Upon consideration, I think I understand why it seems immovable to you. We need to be decisive, otherwise the Dead might get mixed messages. And we don't want that. So Boro and phantom (who is still fishy to me, but is not without his contributions) are being decisive.

But, done is done, on to a new day, etc., etc., and we need to catch a wolf. So.

Opinions:
Well, obviously the Lovers are okay.
I'm not sure what to make of Mith.
It strikes me that Lottie has often come across as "oh, dear, did I do something?" while still being innocent. So.....well, I'll investigate.
phantom is still iffy, but I'm still not ready to lynch him yet.
Boro seems innocenter and innocenter to me.
Not sure about the rest.


Oh, lastly - Yay, Glorfy!

[Mithalwen]

Well Idont' do plans for myself but I just felt it was a more elegant solution. So whose psyche shall we analyse wildly? There are some dark places there to rival Moria...

[Loslote]

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

Just popping in - I'll be back more in a few hours - but I wanted to comment on that. That suggestion of who the 'pack' is is wrong in so many ways. Not just because I can personally say that one out of three is, in fact, innocent. That's not helpful, I'm aware of this. But another one - Glirdy - has a definite wolf persona. When he's a wolf, you can tell. He's not a wolf. I won't say whether or not he's a cobbler, but I think there are more obvious cobbler suggestions. So, in my mind, that's two out of three that are most defintely not wolves. Sally doesn't strike me as anything other than her normal, cupcakey self. Aaaand there's (likely) three of his 'pack' that seem like nothing even close to wolves to me.

On the whole, I'm thinking Ang might be one of our cobblers. His long, long talk about double edged innocence basically served to turn that post into a giant theoretical talk while still sounding pretty and easy enough to read. It basically boils down to "innocents act innocent" - which, while true, does not require nearly that many words to say.

His responce to Sally was more innocent, admittedly. That's really the only thing keeping me from labelling him a cobbler.

[Anguirel]

Sigh. We are going to have to face up to the phantom question eventually. You've broadly agreed with him since that one major bout, Mith. I trust you and pathologically can't trust him.

What, however, do you think of my more substantive actual suspicions?

I'm going to go away and do some Academic Work I'm afraid (Tuesday is a heavy day for me in theory yet I've done nothing so far). I'm sure I'll return to find much debate of interest.

Yeah, I can see what's going for this Morse code esque system, elron. And I'm not really qualified to examine its defences. It's just really not the way I roll. In the best case scenario, we still have a Seer and Glorfindel; we certainly have at least one; and I suppose my predisposition is in these less rational forces rather than a System to end all Systems

[Anguirel]

"long, long" talk, Loslote? Two of my nine paragraphs, and I thought it an important point to defend not only my own position but also my view of Mith and wilwa. I regard the most important part of that little autobiography, though, as being the bit that touches on you...

[Mithalwen]

I don't know I ever trust the phantom but I have known him be that bossy when being the architect of a village victory however I am not going to gun for him yet because as has been remarked this place is quiet enough already. He'll keep with the caveat that I am a bit wary of his border collie act re voting.

[Anguirel]

Glirdy - has a definite wolf persona. When he's a wolf, you can tell. He's not a wolf. I won't say whether or not he's a cobbler, but I think there are more obvious cobbler suggestions.

Hardly going to take that on trust from you right now, am I? Have a care, Loslote; you're creating exactly the form of alliance that was the glue missing from my case. Give some solid examples, if you like, of what you mean by this. I note only right now that Glirdan is playing well, helpful, articulate and vigilant, and that makes me want to be very cautious. I have much solider feelings about you.

And - "sally is her usual cupcakey self"? Come, what colourless piffle. I gather that sally is for some reason known as a cupcake, but I really don't see how that has a bearing on her guilt or innocence.

[Glirdan]

First off:

Glirdan's defence of wilwa is strong, well expressed and convincing - even if arguably only a wolf has the knowledge to be so persuasive.

Did you miss the part where I said it was all meta-reasoning?? Trying to twist my words into something its not?

I see that there is a general consensus on how we would like the dead to give the vote and I'm in agreement with Boro that we should also state who we would like them to check. I also have to agree with Boro that Glorfy should remain hidden. I think Glorfy would help us more by staying hidden cuz at least this way xe could find other non-wolves.

At first when I read Angu's, as elron so put it, "tome", I felt uneasy. After re-reading, I still feel that way. It seems like he's just finding the smallest excuse to bring suspicion to everyone else and it just seems liks an all too easy way for a Wolf to throw suspcion off of himself.

Xed with some Miths, Angus and a Lottie

[Anguirel]

Annoyingly the crucial and abundant work I have to do about Renaissance Ireland is actually quite interesting as well. However, this thing is at a pretty exciting stage and keeps distracting me from it. And vice versa. Will probably mishandle both...

I think Glorfy would help us more by staying hidden cuz at least this way xe could find other non-wolves.


Undecided on this one, but we are so short on solid information that I really can't help wanting Glorfindel the Beloved to break some tension...

I feel really bad about elron's last post actually. There's a sort of mad collective conformity in this village, er, camp, which she endorses, straight down the line, numerous times -

- "not sure" on people she's been prominent in helping kill
- in favour of the technocratic elite with their elaborate plan that involves evil counting
- the phantom could be a wolf ,but for some reason we shouldn't possibly interrogate him yet
- the lovers are innocent (well, yeahhh...)
- Loslote is a scatty innocent

It's just...unconfrontational and platitudinous. There are wolves in this camp. Elron, who do you suspect? At the moment the closest thing you have to a suspect appears, in my view risibly, to be Mith...

[Mithalwen]

Which would make sense if Ang had been under much suspicion, which I can't say I have noticed. Only Loslote after he said he suspecter her and now you in the same circumstances.

Ang and I are are of the old and nearly extinct breed of instinctive, intuitive players. It seems now that analysis and theorising or "in crowd" refs are more tolerated. I don't know for sure if Ang is a wolf, or cobbler or whatever but expecting a cross referenced list or something from him would be like getting Shadowfax to pull a cart.

Need to pop out briefly then I will return.....

[Mithalwen]

Xed with some Miths, Angus and a Lottie

Don't call him Angus please... I'll go all ISIHAC and feel I should tell him "You'll have had your tea!" And then only answer to Mrs Trellis..

[Anguirel]

arrrrrrrghanother thing I want to note before go off on my several-hours-delayed hike to the library is that Loslote and Glirdan, though each, as Mith helpfully points out, do insta-react defensively to me, do so in very different ways, ways that reinforce my strong suspicion of Loslote and weaken my worry about Glirdan. In that, Glirdan thinks I'm a wolf and Loslote thinks I'm a cobbler.

A wolf is much more likely to make cobbler accusations (I think we've gone over this before), because they know the person they accuse is not a wolf. It enables them to harness some of that ring of truth that belongs authentically to an innocent. It's also much more lordly, reasonable, chilled out. Less frightened. Whereas the innocent straight out accuses someone of being a wolf because they think it might well be so.

INNOCENT: (to INNOCENT 2 and WOLF): You two are guilty.

INNOCENT 2: Take that back now, wolf!

WOLF: (flicking ash off end of cigarette holder) Whatever, cobbler.

I am inclined now to suspect Elron more than Glirdan and Loslote more than Sauron.

[the phantom]

Phew! Made it home through the snow!

I'm now going to stay put for the rest of the day, so I should be on quite a bit.

First lunch- then posting.

[A Little Green]

Back at long last and catching up. I'm so tired I could spend hours just staring at the wall, I'm quite sure this isn't normal. Just don't expect me to be at my sharpest toDay.

[Loslote]

A wolf is much more likely to make cobbler accusations (I think we've gone over this before), because they know the person they accuse is not a wolf. It enables them to harness some of that ring of truth that belongs authentically to an innocent. It's also much more lordly, reasonable, chilled out. Less frightened. Whereas the innocent straight out accuses someone of being a wolf because they think it might well be so.

But I do think you're a cobbler. You're attracting too much attention for me to call you a wolf. Under normal circumstances, yeah, I'd point fingers and call wolf, but in this game, there are just as many cobblers as wolves. It's just as likely that you would be one as it is likely that you would be the other. Since you look more like a cobbler than you look like a wolf, I'm going to call you a cobbler.

INNOCENT: (to INNOCENT 2 and WOLF): You two are guilty.

INNOCENT 2: Take that back now, wolf!

WOLF: (flicking ash off end of cigarette holder) Whatever, cobbler.

I also wanted to mention that this amused me greatly. ^.^

[Glirdan]

Okay, I don't have as much time left as I would like, and with Angu's "tome" post and with his flip-flop of suspecting me, I am very leery and would like a closer look at him, because if I remember correctly, he did the same thing on Day 1 as well. However, I do vaguely remember him being like this when he was innocent in games from the olden days (aka, about five years ago :rolleyes:). Still, it's just not sitting well with me. I'll be back.

EDIT: Xed with Lottie

[Boromir88]

This morning, I was having the same problems as Ang. The BD was temporarily not loading.

Glad as I am that I have said something sensible for once, it does occur that we could totally eliminate any wolf anticipation by just stating the criteria for the day depending on who we have left - There are lots of ways of doing it someone with numbers in name, one word name.... but for today odds and evens is just fine. Of course we don't have to vary the system at all but if pointing out we could stymies a wolftrick :D

Well, I think the odds and evens is simple and can't be affected by the lynches. The only way it gets screwed up is if the baddies hijack the dead thread. But as long as the dead know what we want them to do, and there's a trail, Agan's plan will continue to work.

Which is why I brought up yesterday, if the dead went with Agan's plan than Nessa went unchecked, for the plan to continue being of use, we're going to have to tell the dead to either check the Nessa or today's lynch. Phantom wanted to put this off until later, because maybe finding out today's lynch could be more informative then finding out Nessa's role. Which is a fair enough point, but if we wait to spin around in circles about it, it's going to get all jacked up.

I'm proposing a method that will

1) Tell the dead whether we want them to check Nessa or Today's lynch.

2) So we have a clear trail to follow for ourselves, and we don't screw up what the dead are trying to tell us.

So, instead of just our lynch votes, I think we make it plain to see what we want the dead to do. Easiest thing I can think of is.

Check _____ (insert Nessa or Today's lynch )

Dead will then go by majority rules, and if there's some tricky attempt to tie it. Then the first person who reached the vote total.

This way dead will see what we want them to do, and can continue giving the extra vote with the odds/evens plan. And we also have a trail to follow back to, so we don't screw up our end in botching what info the dead give us. Make sense? Simple?

Edit: crossed since phantom's post.

[the phantom]

(Here's the post I was going to post a few hours ago before the site went down.)

This nullifies that double-lynch yesterday *glares at phantom and Lottie*.
Oh, whatever. Some people wanted Nessa, others wanted Lommy. Why don't you wait and see what they are before glaring.
One more thing before sleepy time...Glorfy. Reveal when you want to, don't listen to phantom.
Whatever. If Glorfy saved himself last night then there isn't any reason not to reveal. He's going to die tonight anyway. May as well know the identity of one person.
No. It's best if we tell the dead exactly what we want now.
Well then- what do you think? I would say that if the Dead find Lommy to be guilty then they should just keep checking our lynches, but if she turns out innocent they should check Nessa, for it would perhaps make that lynch particularly telling.
That honour goes to Loslote. I believe her implication that she caused the double-lynch by accident, but her stress on this accident, a preemptive fanning off of blame, looks really bad. Also, read her posts yesterday's and no one else's. The consistency of wolf-perspective they show, given their rarity and brevity, is really noticeable. On the whole then I think her guilty of murder rather than of shoemaking. A cobbler wouldn't have bothered to try and excuse that double-lynch to her extent. I would like to lynch Loslote today well ahead of anyone else.
I will give her a read-over.
Legate's position that lynching Cobblers is a bad thing (the heir of Nogrod's theory) and overt suspicion of phantom is another.
Yeah, I've been wondering if Legate's ill-founded (I believe) attack on me is a sign of innocence, for I cannot imagine a Wolf inviting that sort of thing. I mean really, if you've managed to stay off of Phantom's radar you'd have to be completely unafraid of death to launch any but the most careful and logically sound attack. Or is he counting on that? Risky I'd say.

Daughter's position on me is the more sensible if one is looking simply to survive. Voice a suspicion, but don't actually go so far as to poke at me. Hmmmm... I agree with Ang on this point- that's kind of suspicious.

[elronds_daughter]

Well then- what do you think? I would say that if the Dead find Lommy to be guilty then they should just keep checking our lynches, but if she turns out innocent they should check Nessa, for it would perhaps make that lynch particularly telling.

I think this is a good idea.

And I haven't poked at you, phanty, because I honestly don't think you're that much of a threat. My gut tells me you're fishy, but you've been mostly helpful (if very vocal; but I'm sensing that's typical), though half of the helpfulness seems to be agreeing with Boro (who is on my "Sensible" list, by the by). Also, the fishy-gut-feelings don't point to wolfishness, just general muck-up-the-works-but-still-be-helpful-enough-to-be-ignored cobblery.

Now, to do what I was going to before the 'Downs apparently went down (pun intended, sorry).

I feel really bad about elron's last post actually. There's a sort of mad collective conformity in this village, er, camp, which she endorses, straight down the line, numerous times -

- "not sure" on people she's been prominent in helping kill
- in favour of the technocratic elite with their elaborate plan that involves evil counting
- the phantom could be a wolf ,but for some reason we shouldn't possibly interrogate him yet
- the lovers are innocent (well, yeahhh...)
- Loslote is a scatty innocent

It's just...unconfrontational and platitudinous. There are wolves in this camp. Elron, who do you suspect? At the moment the closest thing you have to a suspect appears, in my view risibly, to be Mith...

Grumble-grumble-I-really-should-start-phrasing-things-more-decisively-grumble. <kicks self>

I can't see how I've been "prominent in helping kill" anyone except Lommy. Who I did think was off. From Day one, if you recall. If you're referring to my calling Lommy an enigma, that's because there are always things about her that I can't pin down.

I never said phantom could be a wolf. I said he seemed fishy. Which I still think he does. But (as explained above), it's not wolfishly fishy.

Mith is currently on my radar, mostly because I can't get a read on her yet. Which is puzzling.

Yes, there are wolves. For all we know, they could be the quiet, busy-in-real-life ones.

Okay, that's all for my self-defense. (That sort of thing never ends well.)

I think Boro's recent method (in conjunction with the original plan...Agan's, wasn't it? I got a bit lost that Day) is a good one. I'm really not sure why anyone is reluctant on this. Don't we want to know about the Dead before we die ourselves? :confused:

EDIT: Right, duh, of course it was Agan's plan. My brain apparently took an unexpected leave.

[Nerwen]

I'm sorry to have to be saying this again, but apologies again for not being around. It's been a combination of RL plus connection failures.

More when I've read things.

[Rikae]

Attention
Due to technical difficulties, the Day has been extended by 24 hours. DL is now 11pm EST tomorrow (February 2).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled lynching.

[Nerwen]

INNOCENT: (to INNOCENT 2 and WOLF): You two are guilty.

INNOCENT 2: Take that back now, wolf!

WOLF: (flicking ash off end of cigarette holder) Whatever, cobbler.
:D


But I do think you're a cobbler. You're attracting too much attention for me to call you a wolf. Under normal circumstances, yeah, I'd point fingers and call wolf, but in this game, there are just as many cobblers as wolves. It's just as likely that you would be one as it is likely that you would be the other.
Okay. The village is getting smaller, and I'm pretty confident we're down at least one cobbler (Nogrod). Two if BG was evil, or if Fea or any more of the lynchees was one. Whereas it seems very unlikely we've sent more than one wolf to Mandos yet. So... is it really Cobbler-hunting time?


And I haven't poked at you, phanty, because I honestly don't think you're that much of a threat. My gut tells me you're fishy, but you've been mostly helpful (if very vocal; but I'm sensing that's typical), though half of the helpfulness seems to be agreeing with Boro (who is on my "Sensible" list, by the by). Also, the fishy-gut-feelings don't point to wolfishness, just general muck-up-the-works-but-still-be-helpful-enough-to-be-ignored cobblery.
What I said to Lottie.


I can't see how I've been "prominent in helping kill" anyone except Lommy. Who I did think was off. From Day one, if you recall. If you're referring to my calling Lommy an enigma, that's because there are always things about her that I can't pin down.
Yes, I know, you said this:
Glad the Lommy-enigma (she always is, to me) is gone, yes.
But that sounds rather like you just lynched her on general principles.


Mith is currently on my radar, mostly because I can't get a read on her yet. Which is puzzling.
Really? I think Mith is about the most innocent-looking person in the village at the moment.


Yes, there are wolves. For all we know, they could be the quiet, busy-in-real-life ones.
So... you're not going to bother looking?


I think Boro's recent method (in conjunction with the original plan...Agan's, wasn't it? I got a bit lost that Day) is a good one. I'm really not sure why anyone is reluctant on this. Don't we want to know about the Dead before we die ourselves? :confused:.
Yes, but the problem is that if the, er, Evil Dead manage to derail it– or even if there's simply a screw-up– we would be basing our suspicions on wrong information. So it's actually quite a gamble. On the other hand, it is frustrating to be left in the dark as we are now, and in fact we are quite handicapped by having no wolvish connections to trace. But Boro's breathless enthusiasm for the whole thing is starting to worry me.

EDIT:X'd with Moddess.

[Loslote]

Okay. The village is getting smaller, and I'm pretty confident we're down at least one cobbler (Nogrod). Two if BG was evil, or if Fea or any more of the lynchees was one. Whereas it seems very unlikely we've sent more than one wolf to Mandos yet. So... is it really Cobbler-hunting time?

There's a difference between actively looking for Cobblers (as opposed to wolves) and drawing a conclusion about a particular person, though. Ang jumped out at me (both in the attention-grabbing way and the attacking way :p ), so I looked at him. Now that I think he's a Cobbler, I'll hardly be pressing for his lynch.

Elron-Hubbard confuses me. On the one hand, she looks like a semi-newbie who's probably innocent. On the other hand, she seems awfully concerned with how she looks:

Okay, that's all for my self-defense. (That sort of thing never ends well.)

As well as a very conciliatory tone. But, all things considered, I'd say it's probably just newbieishness.

[Mithalwen]

Oh what is going on here?

Ang is suspicious because after a long absence he makes a long post? You are saying it would be better if he flipped in and made some anodyne comment and offsodded? With Greenie doing her cat thing (wall staring) I would be quite grateful if you don't lynch the only person on my continent who speaks. It is possible that the wolves felt I was the most innocent person left too in which case I might not be around longer. At least can you find some better reason than he wrote a long post that didn't toe the party line?

I'm on the radar because someone can't get a handle on me? Well sweetie that is your problem not mine. I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.

Are there only cobblers in this village? ..really communicationg with the dead is fine but we can't lynch retrospectively. If we want to win we can't rely on this - we don't have the time and it is the living wolves we have to find.

YEah I know I am grouchy I have just woken up on sofa to see someone explaining (by ripping one apart) what part of a slug is good to eat. I didn't need to see that. Off to bed for a bit.

Completely off topic and useless - but Nerwen, I am sure I am not alone in holding your nation in my thought at the moment as yet another natural disaster threatens. Hope you and yours are ok.

[Mithalwen]

Ok..... more tech problems or just quiet? Hmm.

[elronds_daughter]

I think just quiet. It's an ungodly hour on the US East Coast. :(

Mith, "on my radar" means "shall be looking at more closely now." Doesn't mean I think you're a wolf. Just means I'm going to be trying to understand you better.

Right, well, off to Wednesday. Ick. I shan't be around for another nine hours or so, but I'll try to be talkative when I get back.

[Nerwen]

Mith– thanks for your kind words. And my immediate circle are fine.

This amuses me quite a lot:
I'm on the radar because someone can't get a handle on me? Well sweetie that is your problem not mine. I am not a bally suitcase. I am not meant to have a handle.

Originally Posted by Loslote
Glirdy - has a definite wolf persona. When he's a wolf, you can tell. He's not a wolf. I won't say whether or not he's a cobbler, but I think there are more obvious cobbler suggestions.
Hardly going to take that on trust from you right now, am I? Have a care, Loslote; you're creating exactly the form of alliance that was the glue missing from my case. Give some solid examples, if you like, of what you mean by this. I note only right now that Glirdan is playing well, helpful, articulate and vigilant, and that makes me want to be very cautious. I have much solider feelings about you.

And - "sally is her usual cupcakey self"? Come, what colourless piffle. I gather that sally is for some reason known as a cupcake, but I really don't see how that has a bearing on her guilt or innocence.

Anguirel– what Lottie says about Glirdan is true: he tends to make a pretty obvious wolf. But then, her argument here amounts to, "he's not actually holding up a sign saying, 'Wolf! Lynch me!' so he must be innocent!" And then Sally– well, again, she does quite often follow a hunch that someone's evil, and sticks to it regardless; however, she's posted so little this game that it's quite a stretch to say she's "her usual self" (cupcakey or otherwise).

And having said that, I think the post of Lottie's at least rules out the "triumvirate" of Lottie, Glirdan and Sally. I can't see a Wolflote rushing in to defend both her packmates as openly as that.

There's a difference between actively looking for Cobblers (as opposed to wolves) and drawing a conclusion about a particular person, though. Ang jumped out at me (both in the attention-grabbing way and the attacking way ), so I looked at him. Now that I think he's a Cobbler, I'll hardly be pressing for his lynch.
Lottie, I'm not of course saying Anguirel's above suspicion, but I don't believe you've given any reason yet for thinking he's a cobbler except a.) he suspects you and b.) he talks too much. How can you be so sure?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I have just found out that Ang didn't know the board was back and I had a blonde moment and didn't check when we were talking about other things this morning. My fault not his. Really incredibly stupid of me. So blame me for his absence not him. :(

[Mithalwen]

Though he does seem to have been having problems still.

[Glirdan]

Okay, so before I leave and finish getting read for work, I would like to make a few comment (oh, and forgive me if I tend not to make any sense right now as I'm still experiencing the side effect of my sleeping pills which happens to include groginess and head spinning and the feeling one gets after waking out of an anisthetic):

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

This just doesn't seem right with me and has been bugging me since yesterday (as in the legit day lol). He's throwing all three of us in as Wolves just because, and doesn't really give any reasons why. Well, he gives his theories on Lottie. But he argues against there being a Sally Wolf and gives the shortes, and most very odd suspcions of me stating it could be Wolfish, when I had give a clear explanation that I though Wilwa inncoent due to meta-reasoning.

Okay, that's all I can really touch on right now as I'm pressing short for time and have to go to work. Be back on later.

EDIT: Xed with Mith. By the was Mith, not just him. Seems the Finns are still having troubles.

[Anguirel]

To my astonishment, this thing has just started working for me again. I'm going to vote now in case I can't later, technically or indeed in terms of willpower. My primary suspicion of Loslote remains unaltered.

Nerwen, you make a fair point...my initial, tentative triumvirate is indeed more probably wrong than right, as events have indicated. I think a two-sided alliance between Loslote and Glirdan is unlikely, as I intimated above in my Marlene Dietrich werewolf movie scene. How would Loslote have such full confidence in her defence of a useful ally? Yup, by knowing he's innocent because she's not. I know this is what I suggested about Glirdan himself and Wilwa earlier. This time it is much more valid; as Glirdan himself pointed out in his case I quite unsportingly made use of a sentiment that was semi-above-game.

Loslote, on the other hand, calmly, securely and fully "within-universe", is I believe ingratiating herself with someone she knows is innocent. I don't think her less substantive defence of sally, on the other hand, rules them out as allies. It is empty, neither one thing not the other, a mental shrug designed to shake off interest in sally just as a wolf partner might wish.

I remain for the moment fairly attracted to my shiniest, newest theory that elron is the third wolf. I note that Nerwen and phantom seem attracted to that theory too, and, naturally, that terrifies me.

But, for the moment, and indeed the Day

++LOSLOTE

I quite earnestly think this is a sensible choice, and I exhort anyone who, in that rare combination, trusts my heart and rates my head, to join me in it

[Anguirel]

Glirdan, you have little reason to believe me, I know. But when I construct a theory, I do in large part as a little inquisitorial experiment. It's largely about how seeing people react to suspicion. As far as I can see you passed the test (Loslote flunked and sally skived the date of the exam).

And ironically now the more you doggedly suspect me the more you will conform to my pattern of innocence

kind of like the thing about Illuvatar and Melkor, but simultaneously less cosmic and more positive

[Boromir88]

I didn't mean to tie the vote there yesterDay, and I did make a rather odd face there (something along the lines of o.O, only more so), but Glorfy's save sort of evened out the numbers a teensy bit. I consider it a good exchange, really - someone who could have been a wolf was killed instead of someone who couldn't have. So, all in all, I'm a lot less head-bang-y than I was at the end of yesterDay.


The fact that Glorfindel stopped the wolves kill, doesn't take away the dubious double-lynch. All Glorfindel did was negate the screw up. A good save by Glorfy, doesn't make a bad lynch suddenly a good one. The double-lynch and Glorfy's save are not related, it was still a bad lynch.

A double-lynch is never good, unless both Lommy and Nessa turn up as wolves, or some sort of wolf/cobbler duo. You can't whitewash over the double-lynch as no "biggie", simply because Glorfindel corrected the screw up. Sorry, not going to work.


On the other hand, it is frustrating to be left in the dark as we are now, and in fact we are quite handicapped by having no wolvish connections to trace. But Boro's breathless enthusiasm for the whole thing is starting to worry me.


Yeah, not enthusiastic about having to come down and be such a stiff, shouting orders.

I mean I considered just saying..."Dead peeps. Listen to me. Check Nessa. I want to know both identities of the double lynch." However, what good would that do? One, I'm not sure how trustworthy I am to the dead people to even listen. And two, we would be left debating in this thread whether they listened to me or not, and that would get us no where.

Look, the fact is, Agan and Shasta are known innocents. The type of players they are, they will both be cracking their whips in the dead thread to help us. They have no reason to lead us astray by telling us how they can give us information and then just not do it. Now we've got to do our part, by telling the dead what we want, so they can continue giving info.

The only way to do this is to not debate in circles about it, or hold it off until later like phantom wanted. But by getting a method that tells the dead what we want, and also leaves us a clear trail of "ok this is who the dead would have checked. If wolf they're going to give extra vote odd, if not-wolf even."

I won't talk about this anymore. I've said what I wanted to do. Agree with it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

Dead. Please Check Nessa

Lottie and phantom are topping my suspect list. I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch. And both of their attempts to pass it off as no big deal, with Lottie's "see it was a good exchange, because of Glorfindel!" Not going to convince me a double-lynch is a good exchange.

Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.

[satansaloser2005]

I dislike the double lynch. I dislike Lottie's part in said double lynch. I dislike Ang, and would be happy with lynching either of them toDay. I still dislike Boro, but can't decide between wolf and cobbler for him (am leaning toward the latter right now) so he's not my top priority.

I want to put a pudding in the oven. :Merisu:

I won't be back for a few hours.

[satansaloser2005]

Also....

Dead, please check toDay's lynch.

I'd like to know Lommy's role first, and then we can worry about Nessa.

[the phantom]

Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.

All right- now on to other matters.
Also with phantom, his post on Glorfindel reeks of standard evil planning phantom. It looks like a good thing, hey Glorfindel tell us who you are and who you saved. We can know two innocents, the wolves will go after you and with all your protections, and returning from death you can give us all these extra days. Looks shiny, yes?

Come on phantom, what that post just did was lay out plainly to the wolves why Glorfindel is more powerful if he's killed. Whoever Glorfindel protected is going to be dead, and wouldn't it just be oh so great to the wolves who know who Glorfindel is now? In which event, they don't kill him, so he doesn't have the chance to go to the dead thread, bring us lots of possibly valuable info, as well as come back with 2 protections. That's the flaw in your plan for Glorfindel revealing, you are trying to pass off the assumption the wolves would automatically be forced to kill him if he's revealed. When you know as well as I do, right now Glorfindel is a normal ranger, and wolf packs can work around normal rangers (even if they didn't yesterday).

He's much more dangerous hidden, since he can come back more powerful when and if he's killed. If he's no longer hidden, you make it sound like the wolves would absolutely have to kill him, and they would not.
Is that what you really believe?

A few points worth considering-
1) Glorfy can pretty well clinch the game with a protection or two near the end. When the population is smaller his odds go up and then of course he can reveal his innocence as well as the intended targets and then there is an extremely high certainty of voting correctly.
2) Glorfy provides the only verifiable innocence check in the living thread. The Seer can't prove himself beyond all doubt, and once lynched he's dead. Glorfy on the other hand can give proven testimony, which when you consider that is precisely what we lack in this game set-up makes him quite powerful indeed.

It is perfectly legitimate for the Wolves to consider killing Glorfy consecutive times to be the safest path to victory given those facts, and they'd be much more likely to consider the path if people like you wouldn't try to convince them otherwise! I mean, yeesh, you're the one attempting sabotage here. Keep in mind that if we could've convinced them of the logic in offing Glorfy we would essentially be handing our Seer extra dreams, which was one of the primary points of my plot!

And the other primary point of my plot? Well, there is a chance that Glorfy protected the Seer last night, and if so, I'm thinking the Seer would very much like to know that this is his flippin last day among the living!! This is a HUGE factor. If Glorfy reveals and says "I protected so-and-so" and it's NOT the Seer, the Seer needn't hint at any dreams and can thus stay hidden. But if the protection was the Seer, he can then come right out in plain words with his dream choices.

Plus as I said before, it's 50-50 that Glorfy saved himself, and in that case hiding accomplishes nothing.

But go ahead, Boro, keep yammering. And keep bossing the village into doing pointless things, like the voting in red thing. That is NOT the best solution. The best solution is to leave the Dead open to act according to previous intelligence. Did you suggest the voting alternative in hopes that we will vote not to find out about Nessa? My goodness man, if Nessa turns out to be guilty you will look very bad indeed.

[Rikae]

All this sending of messages has killed all conversation on the dead thread, which displeases me.
Funny thing is, I didn't originally intend to reveal who got the extra votes at all. Maybe I should go back to that plan... :p

[the phantom]

Moddess- It's not OUR fault they stopped talking!! :(

I promise, if/when I go to deadland, I will talk my head off! It will be my goal to receive a PM from you reading, "Phantom, please shut it". :D

[Rikae]

Sure it's your fault.

Where's the fun in voting the way you have been instructed to vote?
I suppose it's my own fault, though, and too late to change the rules now.

[the phantom]

Oh, they can still debate which odd/even person to vote for. It could make a huge difference after all, as perhaps several of the odds or several of the evens are Wolves/Cobblers. It matters greatly which of us here look to be innocent from the perspective of the dead. If I was dead I would be hotly pushing or ruling out one person or another for my vote.

[the phantom]

But I suppose if they won't debate it, we can do that here for them.

Should you have to vote for an even player, please oh please don't give your votes to Boro. He is a rotter and a cad and he's the reason for this massive snowstorm in the US and the hurricane in Australia.

If you have to vote for an odd player, there can be no better decision than a vote for Phantom. He is wise and kind and always brushes his teeth before bed. A model citizen!

[satansaloser2005]

But I suppose if they won't debate it, we can do that here for them.

Should you have to vote for an even player, please oh please don't give your votes to Boro. He is a rotter and a cad and he's the reason for this massive snowstorm in the US and the hurricane in Australia.

If you have to vote for an odd player, there can be no better decision than a vote for Phantom. He is wise and kind and always brushes his teeth before bed. A model citizen!

A model citizen with bad morning breath. If, you know, that matters. It's not necessarily lupine halitosis, but it's still something to consider.

(I do agree on Boro, however. If you give him extra votes, I shall be very put out.)

I can personally assure the dead that I have the innocents' best interest at heart, and that while I'm quiet I'm doing all I can to avenge the deaths of Fea, Shasta, and others. Yes, sir.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have hands to kiss and babies to shake. I'll catch up again later.

[A Little Green]

With Greenie doing her cat thing (wall staring) I would be quite grateful if you don't lynch the only person on my continent who speaks.Aww, sorry Mith! By the time I was finished with the wall staring my 'Downs had decided not to cooperate. :(

But go ahead, Boro, keep yammering. And keep bossing the village into doing pointless things, like the voting in red thing. That is NOT the best solution. The best solution is to leave the Dead open to act according to previous intelligence. Did you suggest the voting alternative in hopes that we will vote not to find out about Nessa? My goodness man, if Nessa turns out to be guilty you will look very bad indeed.I might be really stupid now but didn't Boro say he wanted Nessa checked? Are you suggesting he's trying some reverse psychology or what?

[the phantom]

I might be really stupid now but didn't Boro say he wanted Nessa checked? Are you suggesting he's trying some reverse psychology or what?
That is a possibility.

The other possibility is that he already knows Lommy will be found guilty and wishes for the Dead to completely waste their next check on a guiltless Nessa. (I seem to have forgotten to make this other point last time. I meant to.)

Either way I'm prepared to condemn him.

While that may seem ridiculous, I maintain that it was a suggestion that needn't have been made UNLESS he was trying to accomplish something sneaky, whatever it may be.

His answer to this will determine how willing I am to start a campaign against him. His determination to argue with me- I don't know if it's the foolhardy attempt of a Wolf to take away any sway I might have (which means he's bad), or an honest bout of suspicion (which makes him good), or a simple desire to pick a fight with me (which means he's a Cobbler).

[A Little Green]

Again, not including all her points or even coverage of all she said. Too lazy for that.

Day 1

Banter (after most others had moved on); on topic, she says this:So far I don't think Lottie is causing the good kind of chaos. Her interaction with Shasta seems a bit random to me, even for so early. Might I suggest Wolf Pack PopSicles? It's too early to tell though, so I'll have to look again later. I barely had time to skim, so alas I wasn't able to look at much.And unless I'm much mistaken that was her only post that Day. No vote.

Day 2

I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote, but I also still don't think Lottie is my good little pop. Those are my current choices.
++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.This I find somewhat fishy though she did have very little time. It wouldn't have taken so much more time to type in a few reasons for why Boro is suspicious. Or Lottie, for that matter.

Day 3

Huge rereading project; I will not even try to quote all of that here. She's starting to suspect Ang:

Re: #1. Oh, goodness, no. The only time I’d go for a multiple lynch is if we had a darn good chance of catching a wolf, and even then it could end poorly. What if we lynch two cobblers? They could influence the dead thread and get us pretty much no information whatsoever.

Re: #2. This is actually a good point. Too good, in fact. It’s good to think on wolf tactics, but this seems too much like a wolf planning ahead.

This is making me think that tangy Ang is more like fangy Ang.

A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage (as Gifteds who recognise each other have managed to do in the past). Cobblers are all very well, but they don't really know who they're helping; a wolf, especially if they were sacrificed in such a way that they looked very convincing, could do much more informed damage.

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.
And a union of baddies in the dead thread can compromise what little information we can get. Cobblers, special information or not, are perceptive and can do more damage than we often realize.

And that? That just makes me....gah, wolf radar is pinging like mad. If you’re an ordo, you dying will do the village no good. If you’re a wolf, this serves your team a great advantage.So apparently she's in the "Cobblers are dangerous" camp. Of course an innocent could very well be of that opinion too, but it is very convenient for a wolf if the village is after cobblers rather than them. Be that as it may - I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the last sentence. How would Angwolf's death serve his team a great advantage?

I can’t believe I’m agreeing with Phantom, but our gifteds (at least our ranger) are better undead than unharmed. I’m almost tempted to say that the ranger should come out and be double lynched toDay, but there are too many problems with the plan to even begin to count. If our ranger was brave and selfless, however, I’d totally be up for it. At the same time, however, it would be better to sacrifice the ranger at a later time, so they could bring back the most information possible from the dead thread. Save more people or bring us more information? It’s up to us to decide which is more valuable.This looks like pressuring Glorfy to come out. I'm not commenting on whether he should, it's his business to evaluate that, but I don't like pressuring Gifted to do this or that.
And starting to suspect Nessa:This just screams wolf to me, and you can’t convince me otherwise. It’s like she’s concocted the perfect friendly cute useless but hoping to be helpful post. Wolf! Wolf!

I'm positively stumped about who to vote. Everyone seems so ambiguous!
This seems too strange as well. “Oh no, look at me, I’m so helpless and don’t know what to do!”

Long live the Cobblers?
Yes and no. Sorry, dear, but this isn’t so much in the sense-making category. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it would work. Wolf kills over cobbler kills, yes, but let’s not plan to keep baddies around just because they’re a lower class of evil.So yet again bringing up the "Cobblers are dangerous" -point. I don't like the way she's stressing it.

Okieday, time to vote.

++Nessa

She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her.Initially? As in, from the start? Only there was no mention of that. Or initially, as in, it was in her posts from the start, but only noticed it now?

Day 4

Anyway, excellent! Now, who's up for killing fAng?

I dislike the double lynch. I dislike Lottie's part in said double lynch. I dislike Ang, and would be happy with lynching either of them toDay. I still dislike Boro, but can't decide between wolf and cobbler for him (am leaning toward the latter right now) so he's not my top priority.


Also....

Dead, please check toDay's lynch.

I'd like to know Lommy's role first, and then we can worry about Nessa.This sudden indifference about Nessa looks strange to me, after how much she concentrated on her yesterDay. As for Boro - Sally, why do you find him suspicious? I never found an explanation for that.

I can personally assure the dead that I have the innocents' best interest at heart, and that while I'm quiet I'm doing all I can to avenge the deaths of Fea, Shasta, and others. Yes, sir.I'm curious - is there a reason why you mention Fea of all our beloved corpses? Just a random example, or what? Sorry, I am aware I'm being nit-picky (though I suppose someone has to be now Agan is dead :p) but it just caught my eye.

So in sum? I'm finding Sally rather fishy at the moment. Less so if she answers my questions. (Though that depends on the answers actually..) Her Day 2 vote was not given proper reasons for, she's held to that suspect since but still hasn't told why; also, her sudden reluctance at having her dead top suspect's role revealed looks bad to me. I fear I might be reading too much into things though..

Gah. It's late again.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[A Little Green]

That is a possibility.

The other possibility is that he already knows Lommy will be found guilty and wishes for the Dead to completely waste their next check on a guiltless Nessa. (I seem to have forgotten to make this other point last time. I meant to.)

Either way I'm prepared to condemn him.The reverse psychology idea sounds far-fetched to me. (Yeah, I know, I came up with it myself.) As for the second, it makes sense, assuming both Boro and Lommy are/were wolves (pun intended) - or Bobbler is certain that Lommy was a wolf and Nessa was not. If neither is the case, the logic fails. Speaking of that, you seem pretty certain they both are evil. I still think Lommy probably was, but I'm not at all convinced that Boro is.

[A Little Green]

On another note - it's getting pretty late here, which means I'll have to go soon. I'd have wanted to check at least someone else before doing so, but somehow I was here later than I had expected.


EDIT: Yay, triple post! Or not yay actually, where is everyone? :confused:

[Nerwen]

Re: #1. Oh, goodness, no. The only time I’d go for a multiple lynch is if we had a darn good chance of catching a wolf, and even then it could end poorly. What if we lynch two cobblers? They could influence the dead thread and get us pretty much no information whatsoever.

Re: #2. This is actually a good point. Too good, in fact. It’s good to think on wolf tactics, but this seems too much like a wolf planning ahead.

This is making me think that tangy Ang is more like fangy Ang.


And a union of baddies in the dead thread can compromise what little information we can get. Cobblers, special information or not, are perceptive and can do more damage than we often realize.

And that? That just makes me....gah, wolf radar is pinging like mad. If you’re an ordo, you dying will do the village no good. If you’re a wolf, this serves your team a great advantage.
So apparently she's in the "Cobblers are dangerous" camp. Of course an innocent could very well be of that opinion too, but it is very convenient for a wolf if the village is after cobblers rather than them. Be that as it may - I'm not sure I'm following the logic of the last sentence. How would Angwolf's death serve his team a great advantage?


Yes and no. Sorry, dear, but this isn’t so much in the sense-making category. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think it would work. Wolf kills over cobbler kills, yes, but let’s not plan to keep baddies around just because they’re a lower class of evil.
So yet again bringing up the "Cobblers are dangerous" -point. I don't like the way she's stressing it.
If that's all Sally said about it she didn't say much– the only noteworthy thing there is that she seems to have flipped completely on whether said cobblers should be lynched– also the bizarre suggestion that Anguirel is a wolf trying to get lynched on purpose.

Hmmn. I really don't trust Sally this game, but I'm getting a funny vibe from this too– it seems like A Little Green is just chiming in with the earlier "wolves-hunt-cobblers" talk, when, in fact, Sally has also had "wolf" suspects.

The other points are valid enough, though.

EDIT: word left out.

[Nerwen]

STOP PRESS!

BG has turned up in Mandos!

[A Little Green]

Well past bed time once again. I'm going to go with

++ Sally

I know this looks silly, but both my more serious suspects died yesterDay and thus I thought to do some advanced rereading and rethinking toDay. I then got some time issues, resulting in me only having enough time to check Sally who I found fishy. So that's it. I should be able to contribute more toMorrow in case I'm still alive. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with two Nerwens. Typical. People turn up just as I'm leaving. :rolleyes: Also, BG? What?

[satansaloser2005]

Quick note. I never said cobblers were more dangerous than wolves or that we should lynch them instead of wolves. I disagreed with Phantom's "long live the cobblers" idea, and I didn't want us to forget that the cobblers were dangerous (and in fact I think they can do more damage because they appear innocent to the masses, enabling them to wreak havoc).

I do NOT support a campaign to kill cobblers before wolves. I DO approve of the school of thought that cobblers are POTENTIALLY more dangerous than the wolves. There's a difference.

I'll try to get to the rest of Greenie's questions in a bit. My head hurts. >.<

ETA: x'd since Nerwen's #624

[Nerwen]

Hey, Sally, you double-posted.

[satansaloser2005]

Hey, Sally, you double-posted.

You're imagining things. :p

(Aka I fixed it. Whoops.)

[Nerwen]

So, I was wondering– does the spirit of Blind Guardian retain whatever allegiance it had in life? Or is she now a neutral party? Moddess?

[Rikae]

Her new role is of the same alignment as her original role.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, O Moddess.

Well, for once we know what the Dead are talking about (without cheating).

[Nerwen]

Speaking of the Dead, who are they supposed to be checking? Nessa? ToDay's lynch? Nessa-only-if-Lommy's-innocent? Or what?

Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.

[the phantom]

Speaking of the Dead, who are they supposed to be checking? Nessa? ToDay's lynch? Nessa-only-if-Lommy's-innocent? Or what?
They should check Nessa if Lommy was innocent. That's the best way to turn yesterday's lynch into actual information. I'm going to continue pushing it and assume that the Dead will do it. I mean- why should they honor a vote from us if we vote for them to do something that isn't the best course of action?

I'm going to work on the assumption that our proven innocents (Beren & Luthien) have enough sway down there to make sure everyone falls in line and does what makes the most sense tactically.

Green- nice case there. Hmmm... *looks at Sally*
Lottie and phantom are topping my suspect list. I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch. And both of their attempts to pass it off as no big deal, with Lottie's "see it was a good exchange, because of Glorfindel!" Not going to convince me a double-lynch is a good exchange.
Why don't you double-lynch us then? :p

But really, I'm quite curious which of us you'll feel keen to go for, because as the day wears on I assume you'll need to focus on one or the other. Just a warning- if you choose me, I doubt I'll side with you. ;)

Lottie on the other hand.... It's been days since she's given me a Rep vote. Very suspicious. :D

[the phantom]

Okay, more seriously now, I will do a Lottie read-over, as I promised earlier that I would (to either Boro or Ang... can't remember which).

*off to read*

[elronds_daughter]

Anyway, I have to go now, so–

++Elra

for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub.

<sigh> Yes, I know I look awfully suspicious. No, I'm not evil. Though the ones who are are probably smooth enough that I'm buying into whatever they're saying. Trust me, when I'm evil, you'll know. I have no capacity for lying, even in text.

Well, today's been dreadful, so apologies if I'm seeming a bit, er, grumbly. The working parts of my brain have been smashed to tiny bits and scattered thoroughly, so my vote tonight will probably be more than a little on the random side. I'll read through everything and try to comprehend as much as I can before I cast it, though.

(One thing I've noticed so far is that people seem to think Boro has taken his "let's give the Dead suggestions" to the extreme of "we're going to tell the Dead what to do now, and they've got to obey us so we don't get confused and lose". Which in a very brief scan seems to be the case. Which I'm not fond of.......blechh. Must investigate further.)

EDIT: x'ed with Phantoms.

[satansaloser2005]

I have a horrid headache at the moment, and am shaking too badly to type correctly (it took me ages to compose this, lol). I'll be back after a nap but if I don't return I wanted to give a heads up as to my whereabouts. Hopefully I'll be back soon. Thanks for understanding!

~~Sally~~

[the phantom]

REVIEW OF LOTTIE

Day 1 early- Lottie banters. Whatever. She always does. I usually don't put much stock in early banter by serial banterers.
Day 1 later- Lottie makes her first serious post and attempts to appear unconcerned with death and takes a shot at Manwe (our eventual lynch). Nerwen soon after makes a nice point about how Lottie's post curiously assumes the innocence of Nog and Shasta.

Day 2 early- Makes a list (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647805&postcount=203). Critical of Lommy and Boro.
Day 2 later- Backs Nogrod. Says Phantom as Cobbler makes Lommy look better, which is odd seeing as a Cobbler has no clue who the Wolves are, so why would a Cobbler attack indicate innocence? Says that leaves her prime suspect at Boro.
Day 2 later still- Continues to defend Nog as best she can (in particular talking with me) but eventually votes against him after Agan's "I'm Luthien!" trap.

Day 3- Ah, I see Lommy actually brought up the same points from Day 2, and Lottie attempts to answer them. Her explanations aren't complete nonsense. I do at least put stock in her assertion that Cobbler is probably ruled out for her. She's either innocent or Wolf. Her comment about Fea not being a strong Seer candidate seems to imply that she's gone over people with a Seer comb, though of course even innocents do that sometimes.
Day 3 later- Says she's okay with offing Lommy or Nessa, but prefers the latter. Moves to a more firm Nessa position. Votes to cause the tie. In her defense it easily could have been a cross-post, but of course if she had been keeping track of who was around and which way they were likely to vote she could've seen it coming.

Day 4 early- Her reaction to Ang placing her in a pack of three is to defend herself and the others. I may be mistaken, but a more innocent reaction would be to fear that you are being tied to Wolves, since they do like to tie themselves to innocent (to bring them down if they happen to fall). I would think an innocent would be a bit more paranoid about that possibility, where as a brilliant Wolfish response might be to appear innocent by defending everyone involved and in the process possibly win over those you are linked to, which goes back to the Wolves linking themselves purposefully with innocents.

After the lynch (both yesterday and today) she seems quite apologetic about causing the double, which might make me more suspicious of her. I mean, she did say that she could see lynching both of them, and she certainly favored Nessa dying and her vote killed Nessa, so why be sorry? I can only assume it's a show for appearances.

So okay, you know what? Going into this reread I really don't think I had much of a bias, but Lottie now is looking quite bad to me.

[the phantom]

Where is everyone?

Well, I have to leave soon. I'll be back for the final hour/hour-and-a-half.

Before I leave, as a final word to the dead regarding how we will interpret tomorrow's bonus vote, I stick by what I said earlier-
Dead- ignore this ridiculous business with us voting on who to check tonight. What you decide to do should be dependent upon the identity of Lommy. If you find her guilty, check our future lynches. If you find her innocent, check Nessa.
We need yesterday's vote to be meaningful, and that is the best way to do it. Go with that unless I am overruled by a considerable majority of others (i.e. everyone) who for some reason wish to decide for themselves between Nessa and today's lynch. I would rather leave the decision in your hands based upon what you found with Lommy.

As far as my intentions towards the living, I'm undecided. After that last readthrough I am quite wary of Lottie, but if she doesn't get any votes it would be pointless for me to go in that direction, in which case... I'm not certain. I would've said Boro before, but as he has been one pushing Lottie I am considering giving him a temporary break and looking elsewhere. Out of Daughter and Sally, the former makes the most sense to me at this time, but I do admit that I haven't given Sally a proper read. If it does come down to those two, I will do my best to make myself more informed before I vote.

[Loslote]

In her defense it easily could have been a cross-post, but of course if she had been keeping track of who was around and which way they were likely to vote she could've seen it coming.

It was a cross post. And yeah, I knew it might happen, but I wasn't sure. I said I was planning on voting for Nessa, and after four minutes of nothing since my post asking who was around, voted right at DL. After all, it was that or risk leaving the vote as it was - still a double lynch.

Day 4 early- Her reaction to Ang placing her in a pack of three is to defend herself and the others. I may be mistaken, but a more innocent reaction would be to fear that you are being tied to Wolves, since they do like to tie themselves to innocent (to bring them down if they happen to fall). I would think an innocent would be a bit more paranoid about that possibility, where as a brilliant Wolfish response might be to appear innocent by defending everyone involved and in the process possibly win over those you are linked to, which goes back to the Wolves linking themselves purposefully with innocents.

Nah, I just raised my eyebrows at the fact that Ang's list listed as wolves three people that I very much didn't think of as wolves. I don't think I can remember being tied to a wolf as an innocent...I've seen it happen, yeah, but it's never happened to me personally.

After the lynch (both yesterday and today) she seems quite apologetic about causing the double, which might make me more suspicious of her. I mean, she did say that she could see lynching both of them, and she certainly favored Nessa dying and her vote killed Nessa, so why be sorry? I can only assume it's a show for appearances.

I didn't want a double lynch. Or at least, I didn't want a double lynch that Day. Coupled with the Lovers' deaths, it ended up killing off a lot of people. Boro said something somewhere about how Glorfy's save didn't negate the double lynch, but it does. I'm not bothered by the idea of a double lynch as such. I'm more bothered by losing extreme amounts of people. Glorfy's save evened out the numbers. We lost the same number of players that we would have without either a double lynch or a Glorfy save. But with the double lynch and Glorfy save, both dead people could have been evil. With a Glorfy save and no double lynch, only one of them could have been evil. The other had to be innocent.

[the phantom]

Okay, seriously, only ONE post while I'm gone?!

Just got home, and while I was gone I received a voicemail from Sally which said, (paraphrasing here) "Please inform everyone that I don't feel well and can't get on the Downs and wish to vote for Lottie, but of course I understand that Rikae probably won't accept this as a proper vote, but just pass it along please."

So, yeah... This message from a player who isn't posting accounts for half the posting that has been done during the past hour and a half. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

THE VOTES:

Ang ++ Lottie
Green ++ Sally
Nerwen ++ Daughter

LEFT TO VOTE:
Glirdan
Daughter
Lottie
Wilwa
Legate
Sally
Phantom
Boro
Mith

Still quite a few people left to vote when one considers that we are nearing the final hour....

[Glirdan]

Okay, I just got back in from rehearsal (that I acutally completely forgot I had until I was leaving my apartment for work) and thus have had no chance to skim through anything. And I have a very unlikely chance of skimming through everything that i want to of Angu from the past few days. So, just a forewarning, my vote will more then likely be for Angu.

However, I'm going to do a quick read through of toDay's posts and see if anything else strikes me as Wolfish before I make my final decision.

[elronds_daughter]

Well, rats. I was hoping to have a lightbulb by the time I came back, but I haven't. I'm still going to put off voting for a little while yet, though. Leaning towards Ang or Boro or Mith, but I'm kind of afraid to take a shot in the dark, because I just don't know. And there's no way I can know. Which is endlessly frustrating.

[Rikae]

Since I offered to post Glirdan's vote for him when he couldn't log on, I should do the same for Sally, so:


++Lottie

[Mithalwen]

Sorry, was asleep. Am here to the end now Ihope but won't leave it that long. Highly unlikely to vote Ang today. Don't think he seems so guilty and then there is the silence factor. Anyway. Need to see if anything posted of interest since I fell asleep.

[Loslote]

I'll have to vote a lot sooner than I thought I would, so I'm going to do something rather silly/stupid and go for one of our quieter people. I'm not saying she's a sub - I know she's busy in RL and everything - but I don't have anything better at the moment, so...

++ Vanilwuffin

EDIT: xed with Mith

[the phantom]

Really, Lottie? That's how you voted when under threat?

I can't decide if you're brilliant or insane. Because, you know, it really makes you look unWolfish, but of course there's the double-bluff layer to that... Bleh.

THE VOTES:

Ang ++ Lottie
Green ++ Sally
Nerwen ++ Daughter
Sally ++ Lottie (2)
Lottie ++ Wilwa

LEFT TO VOTE:
Glirdan
Daughter
Wilwa
Legate
Phantom
Boro
Mith

[Mithalwen]

Oh great another candidate. If Glirdan votes Ang then we will have five ...and the dead could decide things...

[Glirdan]

The one thing I've notice a lot of toDay is that there are a lot people consumed by the vote of the Dead, a few of which have been speaking about it quite actively. Boro and phantom come to mind. In fact, in both cases, their first few posts contained nothing but that subject, which does not sit well with me. It's an all too easy way for a Wolf or Cobbler to hide and draw attention away from the real matters at hand: finding the Wolves.

phantom, I noticed, seemed to have been the main contributor, going as far as even formulating a plan which included a Ranger reveal. I'll just say I don't quite agree with his ideas on the Ranger reveal, but I do agree that it would be nice to have one known innocent. Besides the point, he goes on with a master scenario on what would happen if the Ranger revealed. Now, because of this, I'm less inclined to think he's a Wolf. A Cobbler, perhaps, but not a Wolf. A Wolf wouldn't post something as drastic as saying "Hey, Ranger, come out and play and let the Wolves kill you" Actually, his entire post there seems, well, I hate to say it about phantom, but he seems genuinel innocent. He's being the regular, controlling, egotistical phantom.

The other candidate is Boro. He's spent just as much effort concentrating on it as phantom has. The only difference, is he's spent more effort concentrating on who the Dead should check which just doesn't sit well with me. It's okay to mention that he wouldn't "MIND" having a way of communicating with the dead, but it's an entirely different thing to try and force everyone to make a vote for who we want the Dead to check. And it's imposing on the mechanics of our Moddess's game. I just don't like it. Plain old simple as that. He could get my vote.

Elra is another one who is not sitting well with me. Like Nessa, she's been hiding in the shadows way too much. Now, I know that it is unlikely that two of the Wole are playing the low profile type, but we do not know Nessa's role so it is possible that it could be Elra instead. On top of it, she's too "I'm going to agree with everyone and hope I'm going to slide by" She's another I could vote for.

The more defensive Angu gets, the more I'm reminded of me when I'm cornered. I could believe him as innocent, but I'm still very leery of him because of his "tome" post. He also stands getting my vote.

Mith and Nerwen are sitting well with me. After skimming their posts, they both seem pretty logical, but I haven't gotten a chance to properly read their posts before toDay.


Two that I wouldn't mind taking a closer look at when I have more time are Lottie and Greenie as both have just been generally slipping under my radar, but from what I've seen, they've both been making a lot of sense, but that's just my impression of toDay.

I still refuse to vote for Wilwa on grounds of my meta-reasoning. Lommy posted on the Admin thread explaing Legate's absence and because of this, I would like to give him a free pass for the Day.

Which leaves Sally, who again, I haven't taken a proper look at at all and has been flying right under my radar. I think I may abstain from voting her just so I can take a closer look at her tomorrow.

Which brings me to my list:

Not voting for
phantom
Wilwa
Sally
Legate

Either Way
Greenie
Mith
Nerwen

Probably Voting
Boro
Angu
Elra
Lottie

Will vote very shortly

[Glirdan]

Lottie just moved up my list to potential vote for. Her vote does not sit well with me whatsoever and is an all to easy, scape goat vote, especially when Wilwa has not been around all Day to post, let alone defend herself. That and there's no true reasoning behind the vote itself and that makes me more uncomfortable.

EDIT: Sorry, she does have a reason which is going for one of our quieter people....Hmmmm....Geez....now I don't know what to think of her >_<

[the phantom]

Lottie just moved up my list to potential vote for. Her vote does not sit well with me whatsoever and is an all to easy, scape goat vote, especially when Wilwa has not been around all Day to post, let alone defend herself. That and there's not true reasoning behind the vote itself and that makes me more uncomfortable.
Yeah, I thought her vote was rather crazy. I mean, she's under threat but she votes for someone with no votes and doesn't seem likely to get more? Not a lot of reason behind it, and no sense of self-preservation whatsoever.

If you read my post earlier today, you'll see that I really began suspecting Lottie after my readthrough, but that vote of hers.... Gah! Drives me nuts!

Is she a Cobbler saying "Lynch me please!" or a Wolf saying "I'm a Cobbler!" or what? Meh... I'm really considering the possibility that I was wrong about her being a Wolf after all, and that I basically played right into her Cobbler game by coming to suspect her... :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

It didn't seem an innocent vote more a cobbler falling on their sword. The downs slows when I try and page back but I could vote on the stupid nickname thing alone. gah 10 mins

[the phantom]

And where is everyone? It's seven minutes until the deadline...

I need to make a decision fast.

[the phantom]

I agree, Mith, but what does that mean for us? I'm not sure how to react. I was so ready to vote for her, but now it feels pointless...

[Glirdan]

Okay, that's it, ten minutes left and I'm going to vote and I'm going to stick with my gut on this one and go with

++Angu

Let me address some things first

1) I just feel more strongly about Angu being guilty then the rest of them

2) Lottie is flip-flopping too much toDay and even though her vote makes
me think she's suspicious, the fact that she voted completely safely, knowing no one else would go for it, makes me lean a little more either towards a very confusing innocent or a Cobbler

3) Elra, who is both also on my list and up on the voting list. I have not gotten a proper look at her myself and wish to look more in depth at her, like Sally

[Mithalwen]

For me prolly ED or Loslote don/t want multi lynch bog-up but now think L more cobblery

[the phantom]

Okay... I guess maybe I'll vote for Daughter then...

[Mithalwen]

++Loslote

Don't suspect ang dn 't want to risk multi lynch on a feeble day.

[the phantom]

++Daughter

(x-post bleh!)

[elronds_daughter]

Arghh! Okay. Shot in the dark.

++ Boro

[Mithalwen]

sorry tp had to decide....

[Rikae]

Lottie is dead. Anguirel had the extra vote.

The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
wilwarin538
Legate of Amon Lanc
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
Loslote

It is now Night 5.

[the phantom]

Jumping in with a Boro vote at the end? Really?

I guess Daughter isn't concerned with self-preservation either...:rolleyes:

I guess EVERYONE is a Cobbler.

[Rikae]

The elves awoke with the hope that the one who had defended them the Night before had prevented another killing, but instead they found three bodies. Mith had been gruesomely torn apart as had the others before her, but Legate and Wilwa were untouched. Beside Legate they found an empty cup, and a similar one in Wilwa's hand contained a small amount of clear liquid. They decided to allow the winner of the Day's election the honor of sampling this to determine what it might be.

The Living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Anguirel

The Dead:

Rikae
Macalaure
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
Loslote
Mithalwen

Really most sincerely dead:
wilwarin538 - ordinary innocent
Legate of Amon Lanc - cobbler

Day 5 has begun. You may now post.

[the phantom]

Okay, so, LOTS to talk about today! A few things...

Lommy was not a Wolf. Ugh.

We will find out about Nessa today. If she's guilty then Green, Nerwen, Phantom, or Ang will receive an extra vote.

Yesterday's lynch was weird, and I think we need to decide whether or not we want the Dead Thread to check Lottie. The case against her I felt was quite strong for a Wolf, but there at the end she had the obvious look of a Cobbler.

Personally I think Cobbler is the most likely, however, if she was a Wolf her move was actually quite a brilliant one, seeing as there were still enough voters out there to save her and it made her, as I said, look so obviously like a Cobbler.

And then of course there is Daughter's seeming lack of interest in keeping herself alive. Another Cobbler? Or is it at all possible that both of them were willing to bite the bullet because the alternate candidate was a fellow Wolf? Or was Daughter the Cobbler betting Lottie was her Wolf master? I would VERY much like to find out what was going on.

Daughter- what do you have to say?

[the phantom]

Ha ha ha! I think the Dead Thread just got spammed. Somebody named "RHCC" just posted there. :D

[Nerwen]

Yesterday's lynch was weird, and I think we need to decide whether or not we want the Dead Thread to check Lottie. The case against her I felt was quite strong for a Wolf, but there at the end she had the obvious look of a Cobbler.

Personally I think Cobbler is the most likely, however, if she was a Wolf her move was actually quite a brilliant one, seeing as there were still enough voters out there to save her and it made her, as I said, look so obviously like a Cobbler.

And then of course there is Daughter's seeming lack of interest in keeping herself alive. Another Cobbler? Or is it at all possible that both of them were willing to bite the bullet because the alternate candidate was a fellow Wolf? Or was Daughter the Cobbler betting Lottie was her Wolf master? I would VERY much like to find out what was going on.
Elra had just seen the "hey-wait-guys–she's-only-a-cobbler" reaction to Lottie's throwaway vote– maybe it seemed like a wise move to her to follow suit?

I think the Dead should check Lottie, yes– however we cannot now afford to wait on the result: if we haven't in fact managed to lynch a wolf yet we are in major trouble. I think it's necessary now to work from assumptions: "If Lottie/Nessa was a wolf, who might her packmates be? If neither was, what other pattern makes sense?" Etc.

Anyway, what does everyone make of this?–
Beside Legate they found an empty cup, and a similar one in Wilwa's hand contained a small amount of clear liquid. They decided to allow the winner of the Day's election the honor of sampling this to determine what it might be.

[Boromir88]

I'm a gonna have to vote really early, due to a new job that's taking me away for the weekend. (But I likes this new job, much, yes I does :D)

I should be generally around until 12 EST, then will have to vote.

[Rikae]

Because Legate and Wilwa are not simply dead, but no longer playing, I've decided to reveal what their roles were (check the narration).

I decided to treat their roles differently from BG's since it is later in the game and they are actually dropping out.

[Anguirel]

Anyway, what does everyone make of this?

Well, it's a bloody disaster, isn't it. I think Rikae said their roles were to be revealed? The substance is clearly virulent poison, and it looks to me like we've lost two further innocents at an utterly crippling point.

For the record I'll be very surprised, too, if Nessa turns out to be a wolf. I do though think we are one wolf down. I'm so sure about Loslote that if I'm wrong about her I'm probably wrong about Nessa...

I distrust the phantom with extreme prejudice. I don't like his immediate if typical attempt to claim the Day's direction and steer it towards Elron, a vulnerable, easy-to-lynch candidate whom he knows many people (me for instance) vaguely suspect. As in WW I itself, our "two luminaries", phantom and Boro, the great statistical plotters, are at war. It is very unlikely that both are guilty. At the moment I would also say that neither are wolves, and that phantom is, after all, a Cobbler.

Which means we cannot dismiss that aboriginal question. Was Nogrod telling the truth?

Another thing we should consider is that Mith was almost certainly the object of last night's protection. Let's just hope she wasn't also the protector (I think this unlikely; while I've seen Mith be an excellent Draugluin ranger protecting herself wouldn't be her style).

This day is very perilous and we may well be dealing with a majority hostile population. It really doesn't help that two of the people I felt best about happened to choose to withdraw. Absolutely hamstringing.

Can I just reassure the Moddess, though, who seems to worry that this game isn't working in the admin thread, that in its traumatic, stressful, fiendish way it is very exciting indeed, and I at least am glad I participated.

I'll go through my feelings about the remainder of our camp quickly -

Glirdan - as laid out above, a relatively high level of trust that unfortunately you seem unlikely to reciprocate.
A Little Green - you've acted quietly and judiciously and been quite fairminded about me re sally, which is of course simultaneously reassuring and worrying. But there are others I suspect more.
Nerwen has been helpful and clear-thinking and I would be very reluctant to lynch her; she reminds me of an innocent Firefoot, sorry to be retro
sally your vote was I think helpful and you took lengths to produce it. Your alliance with phantom seems unsettlingly unconditional though. You keep saying "I'm so amazed to find myself agreeing him". I'm not very amazed. On the other hand if you are wolf Loslote is not one. A wolf for wolf vote could never be so baroque
phantom and Boro, see above
Elron, leaning framed innocent purely because of phantom's apparent desire to see you dead

damnation, I seem genuinely only to suspect the phantom now. Consumed in obsession. And I don't even think he's a wolf, just a Cobbler.

sally voted for both Nessa and Loslote, a very good looking record but, oh, Eru, could we still have three wolves?

[Anguirel]

Just seen Rikae's new information. It is helpful to know that Legate - whom phantom as well as I, I noticed, assumed was looking innocent - was illwilled. That seems to cast more conclusive doubt on Nogrod's case (provided Legate knew what he was doing), for Legate was his longest and latest supporter.

[Anguirel]

Now Mith, my only countrywoman as well as the only person with whom I was in a real position of mutual trust, is down I know there won't be action here for a while. Still there's still one question I'd like sorted.

This game has involved a lot of bossing by villagers; bossing of the Gifteds, bossing of the Dead. I really disapprove of this style of doing things, as I've mentioned. But I must admit I lean towards advising Glorfindel to come out, really. We have so little other information. We could even (very much not my way of doing things this) put that question to a vote, in which case I would be for (though of course our protector need not be bound my such a vote)


and one other matter. How near are we, statistically, to defeat? Could someone better at counting than I am (seriously, I study poetry, I dropped maths at fifteen, I am mentally and verbally innumerate) help me out here? If there are two wolves, does one failed lynch and one kill finish us? let me see. 2 from 8 = 6. Now if there are three - yeah. If there are three we're seriously close to the wall now, especially as there's probably still a cobbler around, even if I'm pretty sure his name is phantom

[Boromir88]

My vote the previous day would have been either for phantom or Lottie. And if I was on to see the situation, then would have voted Lottie, for whatever that's worse. It wouldn't have changed the outcome.


and one other matter. How near are we, statistically, to defeat? Could someone better at counting than I am (seriously, I study poetry, I dropped maths at fifteen, I am mentally and verbally innumerate) help me out here? If there are two wolves, does one failed lynch and one kill finish us? let me see. 2 from 8 = 6. Now if there are three - yeah. If there are three we're seriously close to the wall now, especially as there's probably still a cobbler around, even if I'm pretty sure his name is phantom

With Legate being a known cobbler, doesn't it seem like we've already killed 5 cobblers so far? :rolleyes:

Obviously that's not possible, and it's feasible that all those turning up not-wolves, are indeed not cobblers. But taking out Legate, there's two left and it's entirely plausible one of the known not-wolves in the dead thread is cobblery.

I guess my point is, at this stage in the game, we have to go for straight up tricky and false behavior. If the person's a cobbler, and we lose, so be it. But we can't have 5-6 cobblers running around here, so there's got to be wolves in this forsaken place somewhere.

My jump on phantom boils down to I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch be phantom and Lottie. Lottie we know, follows around phantom like a puppy, and having played wolves with her before, she will take a bullet for a packmate. Phantom could have easily set that play up at night, by cherry-picking Lommy (which I admit I fell for because I thought her behavior was being completely ridiculous) while Lottie (or another packmate) go after Nessa.

And now that I'm on this subject, don't you find that business between Nog and phantom a bit too clean? Nog sets the noose around his own neck, and phantom starts proclaiming he knew what Nog was going to do, after the previous day defending Nog.

Add on top of that, phantom's plans and his post on Glorfindel's reveal, I truly and completely disagreed with. It was far too early to ask Glorfindel to reveal his/her info. And to argue that he wanted Glorfindel out and then to force the wolf pack into believing they had to kill him is ridiculous. Even though this was only yesterday, with basically what amounts to a triple-lynch during the night, if Glorfy's alive, looking at the desperate situation and need for some type of tangible roles...now is as good of a time as any for Glorfy to step out.

However, no one needs to go on their high horse and start vehemently demanding it. *Remembers what wolf-Nog and cobbler-me did to poor Wilwa-Ranger in a not so distant past.*

[Boromir88]

My last post is saying, believe me or not, it makes no difference to me.

The most manipulative and mis-leading player this entire duration has been the phantom. Lynch him, even if he may only turn up cobbler.

[Nerwen]

Well, it's a bloody disaster, isn't it. I think Rikae said their roles were to be revealed? The substance is clearly virulent poison, and it looks to me like we've lost two further innocents at an utterly crippling point.

An innocent and a cobbler, as it turns out. But I meant this part:
They decided to allow the winner of the Day's election the honor of sampling this to determine what it might be.
A further twist in the game? It seems to imply toDay's double-voter will die.

If there are two wolves, does one failed lynch and one kill finish us? let me see. 2 from 8 = 6. Now if there are three - yeah. If there are three we're seriously close to the wall now, especially as there's probably still a cobbler around, even if I'm pretty sure his name is phantom
I don't think there can be more than three villains (of all kinds) still living. But that's still pretty bad.

EDIT:X'd with Boro.

[Nerwen]

My jump on phantom boils down to I think that was an orchestrated double-lynch be phantom and Lottie. Lottie we know, follows around phantom like a puppy, and having played wolves with her before, she will take a bullet for a packmate. Phantom could have easily set that play up at night, by cherry-picking Lommy (which I admit I fell for because I thought her behavior was being completely ridiculous) while Lottie (or another packmate) go after Nessa.

And now that I'm on this subject, don't you find that business between Nog and phantom a bit too clean? Nog sets the noose around his own neck, and phantom starts proclaiming he knew what Nog was going to do, after the previous day defending Nog.

First part makes sense, but you're surely not implying Nog and tp are packmates, are you? Nog tried to get himself checked in Mandos, remember, which more-or-less rules him out as a wolf.

[Rikae]

A further twist in the game? It seems to imply toDay's double-voter will die.


No twists. The person "elected" to be lynched toDay will die, (as usual).

[Nerwen]

No twists. The person "elected" to be lynched toDay will die, (as usual).
All right, thank you for clearing that up.

It is very unlikely that both are guilty. At the moment I would also say that neither are wolves, and that phantom is, after all, a Cobbler.

Which means we cannot dismiss that aboriginal question. Was Nogrod telling the truth?
Well, I hope not! Phantom's being a cobbler wouldn't prove it, anyway– I mean, it seems to me half this game has consisted of people yelling "Cobbler!" at each other; no doubt sometimes both have been right. (Unfortunately I guess there's still quite a good chance we've managed to lose the Seer one way or another anyhow.)

I expect either Boro or phantom is a baddie of some description anyway. Based on recent events and posting I'm leaning more towards phantom, but it's late at night here and I have a splitting headache. I need to see how things look in the morning.

[Boromir88]

Nog tried to get himself checked in Mandos, remember, which more-or-less rules him out as a wolf.

Sorry didn't make that part of it clear. My thought was Nog's a cobbler, got stuck in a situation where all he could do was beg to be lynched. wolf-Phantom who from what I remember "cobblers are canon-fodder" philosophy, thus pushed for his lynch. Believing Nog was not only a cobbler, but would be a trouble-maker in the dead thread. I mean would anyone expect Nog to let death shut him up?

This part is probably far-fetched, but I've basically come to the conclusion that I think the double-lynch of Lommy and Nessa had wolf paws all over it. And what's just completely incomprehensible to me is how does phantom get off jumping Mith for vascillating on her vote plans Day 1, putting him in a tough spot, but not seem particularly bothered by the double-lynch that he and Lottie did?

[Boromir88]

Gotta be heading out, will be gone until late late Saturday.

++the phantom

If you really our innocent, my apologies bud, as it means I've allowed myself to be completely manipulated by the wolves this game. Although, I find it hard to believe that an innocent phantom would be at the center of all this confusion.

[the phantom]

I don't like his immediate if typical attempt to claim the Day's direction and steer it towards Elron, a vulnerable, easy-to-lynch candidate whom he knows many people (me for instance) vaguely suspect.
So I'm steering, eh? What, because I said what everyone is thinking regarding yesterday, and requested that Daughter speak on her behalf to explain that nonsense at the end?

Please, please, forgive me Ang. Next time I'm the only person around at the beginning of a Day I will keep my mouth shut, because goodness knows that being present early in the day is a clear attempt at manipulating the day's conversation rather than a result of the deadline time set by the moderator. :rolleyes:
Another thing we should consider is that Mith was almost certainly the object of last night's protection. Let's just hope she wasn't also the protector
She wasn't Glorfy.
But I must admit I lean towards advising Glorfindel to come out, really.
No, no, don't say that! Anyone who says that must be evil! Or at least that's what Boro thought yesterday.
And now that I'm on this subject, don't you find that business between Nog and phantom a bit too clean? Nog sets the noose around his own neck, and phantom starts proclaiming he knew what Nog was going to do, after the previous day defending Nog.
I DID know he was setting up for a false reveal. I mean, come on- if you read his posts Day 2 as they progress it's quite obvious he was building to something, and his clear-cut comment about changing his mind regarding me... I never did think he was a Wolf, but then as it began to look obvious he was setting up for a reveal, I looked at what he had been hinting (me = Cobbler) and realized that he was surely a Cobbler, but to give him the benefit of the doubt as a non-Wolf I wasn't going to jump the gun on him just in case he was attempting any sort of bluff or ploy and refrained from a reveal after all.

But yes, I even hinted openly that I knew where he was headed. In one post I said something along the lines of, "I wonder if Nog will make my decision easier by doing some sort of false reveal" and then directly before his reveal (after reading the post before it) I said something like "That set-up sounds mighty suspicious. *waits for Nog* "
now is as good of a time as any for Glorfy to step out.
Ha ha ha! Yesterday saying such a thing was evil, but today it's okay.

By the way, I'm going to take this opportunity to stick my tongue out at you and point out that you are now following in my footsteps.
Step 1: Claim Phantom is bad for doing what he does.
Step 2: Do what Phantom does.
:D
but I've basically come to the conclusion that I think the double-lynch of Lommy and Nessa had wolf paws all over it
Yeah, we planned the whole thing, because of course I am so incredibly brilliant that before that day started I knew precisely who our two candidates would be, and also knew which of us would have the double-vote, and knew which people wouldn't show up at the deadline to vote (e.g. Shasta).

You know, really, I'm not even going to fight that accusation, as for anyone to believe it they would have to believe that I'm just flippin out of sight genius. Which I am, of course, but it gives me pleasure to see other people buy into it. So yeah... Grrr... Lottie and I hatched that plot. And then the next night we hatched a plot in which I would analyze her and make her look really bad and try and fan the flames of a Lottie-lynching mob, with the understanding she would run in late and act like a Cobbler causing everyone to change their votes last minute. But of course if that was the plan, it kind of failed. So... um.... maybe I won't take credit for being a Phantom-Lottie pack.

Anyway, congrats to Boro and Ang for turning things on me so that some completely ridiculous under-radar team like Daughter-Sally can waltz to a Wolf victory.

I've got to go to class now. In a fine mood.

[A Little Green]

I know our numbers have dwindled and all, and that of all people I'm not the one who has any business complaining about it being quiet, but still the silence unnerves me. I'm going to need to do some serious rethinking now, probably looking at the votes from the past Days and see what actually happened. It's all a blur in my head at the moment.

[Anguirel]

Please, please, forgive me Ang. Next time I'm the only person around at the beginning of a Day I will keep my mouth shut, because goodness knows that being present early in the day is a clear attempt at manipulating the day's conversation rather than a result of the deadline time set by the moderator...

She wasn't Glorfy...


Anyway, congrats to Boro and Ang for turning things on me so that some completely ridiculous under-radar team like Daughter-Sally can waltz to a Wolf victory.


phantom, your first statement doesn't address my substance - that an accusation of Elrond's Daughter at this stage looks like a very easy course.

Your second is rather provocative. You're saying, according to your personal angle on things and sense of Mith's style, she's unlikely to have been Glorfindel? That, also, is my impression. But there's no need to give the impression that your supposition is a certainty

Your third point is unworthy of you; you won't win my trust by throwing around blame in that childish tone. We ought to work together. If we are actually both innocent then this is intensely frustrating. But that's not the way to convince me

It's also odd in that you imply you don't think Boro or I are wolves. You've been consistently, up till now, friendly and on my side (one reason I think you need more scrutiny), but hitherto you certainly suspected Boro. Even more oddly, you haven't hitherto suspected Sally in any emphatic way...

[Glirdan]

Hi all, sorry for the lack of posting (read Admin thread for reasons why).

As in WW I itself, our "two luminaries", phantom and Boro, the great statistical plotters, are at war. It is very unlikely that both are guilty. At the moment I would also say that neither are wolves, and that phantom is, after all, a Cobbler.

I'm definitely inclined to agree with this sentiment. Both are going after each other too strongly for it to be a Wolf on Wolf. However, I'm not sure if I agree with phantom being a Cobbler. I'm not saying he's looking innocent but I'm also not saying that Boro is looking guilty. I think they're both looking mighty guilty.

However, with Legate being revealed as a known Cobbler and Nog being another (well, that's the original assumption at least), it's doubtful that both our guilty (aka. Wolf vs. Cobbler). I'm not sure which I see as more guilty though. Both have had made their very valid points and have helped the village. And yet, both have been trying to steer the village in a specific direction to suit their needs. I wish I could look over both of them more thoroughly, yet due to RL reasons (aka. personal issues and work), my time on the internet toDay is rather limited. I may end up having to do what I did yesterDay and base my vote off of who looks guilty from toDay.

Which means we cannot dismiss that aboriginal question. Was Nogrod telling the truth?

This is a very valid question, one I think we should look into in case it hasn't been done. Yet, because of Agan's trap and his lack of response to it, I'm still more inclined to believe that he was a Cobbler.

So here's my question to all of you. Instead of having Lottie checked toNight, should we have the Dead check Noggins?

Can I just reassure the Moddess, though, who seems to worry that this game isn't working in the admin thread, that in its traumatic, stressful, fiendish way it is very exciting indeed, and I at least am glad I participated.

I am in utter agreement my dear Moddess, even with the stress of RL right now, I find this to be one of the most exciting games I've played in and I am quite glad I joined.

I feel I rather agree with Boro on this statement in regards to phantom

but not seem particularly bothered by the double-lynch that he and Lottie did?

I did think it was strange, especially seeing as he apparently "detests" double lynches. Yet he did nothing to stop it either and the next day had no...shall we say remorse?...about it. If I recall correctly, he even said that he was quite happy with that outcome. And a double lynch in a game like this is the perfect place for a Wolf to get rid of players that they feel are threatening to them, and he had it out for Lommy from the get go.

However, we can't base much off of that double lynch seeing as those were the only two candidates up for lynching, other then Agan's and Wilwa's votes for Boro, both of whom are known innocents.

She wasn't Glorfy.

How can you be so sure?

Hmmm...I don't know what to make of this whole mess right now....Either way, Boro and phantom are confusing me beyond belief. The only credit I can really give to Boro at this point is following through with his vote on phantom

As for this Sally and Elra debate that phantom has stirred up....I'm not sure what to make of either of them. Both of them have been breezing along by quite unscathed with a few short posts here and there. It is quite possible that one of them, if Nessa is not, is a Wolf in hiding. Personally, I don't see a Sallywolf pulling this kind of tactic. She's been around far too long to pull that kind of newbie tactic. Which is why, of the two, I'm more inclined to believe that Elra would be a Wolf and Sally innocent.

I'm now feeling a little more comfortable with Angu. Out of the main speakers (aka. him, Boro and phantom) he's the only one who's not trying to steer the village in any way whatsoever. It is quite possible that he is the remaining Cobbler (if there are any left that is) or just a very confused innocent. All of his posts toDay have been clear, concise and made sense, none of which have come across as Wolvish. However, I am still uneasy about him due to his posts yesterDay (see my vote post for further reasons as to why). I'm really not sure what to make of him at all.

Okay, that is all for now. I'll be back in a little while to check up.

EDIT: Xed with Angu

[Anguirel]

Not that aren't actually things that make me uneasy about Boro's tone. It's permeated with resignation we could do without at this relatively critical stage...

"If the person's a cobbler, and we lose, so be it."

"This part is probably far-fetched, but I've basically come to the conclusion that I think the double-lynch of Lommy and Nessa had wolf paws all over it."

(as in, he doesn't really believe in the validity of his own accusation that the double-lynch was orchestrated by wolves. And neither do I)

"If you really our innocent, my apologies bud, as it means I've allowed myself to be completely manipulated by the wolves this game. Although, I find it hard to believe that an innocent phantom would be at the center of all this confusion."

a patina of fallacy, though it could well be unintentional. More resignation and despair that is unlike him; then a sentence that makes little sense; phantom is always a controversial and suspicious player whether innocent or guilty.

Nerwen and I have both said we think one or the other is guilty...what if neither is. I've seen bigger farces. Certainly I think we can rule out both of them being wolves!

We probably still have a hunter, too. If s/he and Glorfindel reveal there will be a flurry of reaction and maybe some rival claimants, but I think in shifting the terms of debate this would actually be helpful. After all, a revealed hunter can look after themselves to an extent; wolves late in the game are very cautious about attacking them. I've known hunters be very useful out in the open...

so, all in all, I think sally, while personally suspicious to me for reasons of self defence, is only likely to be a wolf if all three are still on their paws.

Or if her Nessa vote was late in the day and served the purpose of camouflage. I'll just check on that and then continue where I left off...

[Anguirel]

sally's was the fourth vote for Nessa; risky though not utterly inconceivable for a very bold fellow-wolf, especially if an ally (phantom?) was expected to sort things out in favour of Thinlomien's death


I'm definitely inclined to agree with this sentiment. Both are going after each other too strongly for it to be a Wolf on Wolf. However, I'm not sure if I agree with phantom being a Cobbler. I'm not saying he's looking innocent but I'm also not saying that Boro is looking guilty. I think they're both looking mighty guilty....

So here's my question to all of you. Instead of having Lottie checked toNight, should we have the Dead check Noggins?

I'm now feeling a little more comfortable with Angu. Out of the main speakers (aka. him, Boro and phantom) he's the only one who's not trying to steer the village in any way whatsoever. It is quite possible that he is the remaining Cobbler (if there are any left that is) or just a very confused innocent. All of his posts toDay have been clear, concise and made sense, none of which have come across as Wolvish. However, I am still uneasy about him due to his posts yesterDay (see my vote post for further reasons as to why). I'm really not sure what to make of him at all.


argh Glirdan that first paragraph is really confusing. Which I suppose is fair enough, given the confusion surrounding that particular duel, but still. It's like a particularly mad poem

no no no, check Loslote not Nogrod, Dead (though at this rate we might not last long enough to get the results of your inquisition...). Whatever Nogrod is he's very unlikely to be a wolf because of the planted Seer hint (though I thought he was a wolf, optimistically, when I voted him down). If he's a Cobbler, we won't learn anything. Loslote might well be a wolf and we really need to find out.

finally, Glirdan, thankyou, that's very nice of you. I imagine phantom will scornfully answer that on the contrary I am trying to steer the camp towards hanging him, but you're right to see I don't feel that simply about things.

[Anguirel]

OK. A curse on my tentative appeal to people power. I'm out to supper in a minute, and I want the conversation to be more eventful when I do so. I shall try to encourage that process now.

Allow me to remove this brooding, dark red Feanorian toupee I've been wearing, and reveal my long, flowing, golden hair.

Ai na vedui Dunadan! Mae govannen!

I would appreciate the help of my hunting comrade. We may then properly assess their claim, among other things.

I defended the Grey Queen for as long as was within my power, and yet mourn her fall more bitterly than tongue can sing. (I did occasionally worry that Mith would think I was patronising for being so sure of her innocence, but fortunately our traditional friendship ensured there was little very odd about it.)

Oh and, finally, no more of this Angu nonsense. My name is Glorfindel, Lord of the House of the Golden Flower. Some people like to call me "The Beloved", though obviously I'm really modest and that totally makes me feel shy.

OK. Get debating, dowdy folk of Aegnor...

[A Little Green]

DAY 1 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded. Quotations on the reasoning behind the vote included, comments in brackets mine. Actual conclusions and such to come once I've posted the votes from all the Days and had a look at the big picture, if something such exists.

Lommy – Manwe
"He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all. Not that this is much to go on with!"

Legate – Nessa
"Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me."

Greenie – Lommy
"since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example)."

Shasta – Nog
"Alright, after a quick read, the two I find most off are...

Phantom (surprise surprise) and Nogrod. Both seem, to me, to be trying to tell the wolves/cobblers what to do"

"I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!""

Agan – Nog (2)
"I agree with Shasta about Nog being suspicious"
(there probably were actual points against Nog in her earlier posts, but I didn't feel like taking the trouble to find them seeing as it's really not that relevant)

Nog – Shasta
"He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest."

Manwe – Greenie
"three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor."

Elra – Nog (3)
"This tension between Nogrod and Shasta worries me somewhat. Hrmmm."
"Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost."

Nessa – Legate
"Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?"

Fea – Nerwen
"Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one."

Lottie – Manwe (2)
"Now, I'll have to vote and run, so, for his rather worrisome post..."

Boro – Legate (2)
(no reason I could find)

Glirdan – Lommy (2)
"Okay, I think I kind of see everyone's point on her now. She seems a little, wish-washy, for lack of a better word. And her reasoning for her vote for Manwe could just as easily be applied to about five other players, myself included. It seems like it's a throw away vote. But if that's the case, why not just say it's a throw away vote??"

Ang – Manwe (3)
"In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod."

Nerwen – Manwe (4)
(about Lottie pointing out Manwe sitting back and enjoying the fight between Shasta and Nog) "A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie)"
"So, it's Manwe and Nog tied at 3 votes each? Okay, then, that simplifies things–"

Mith – Legate (3)
"Suppose in the cause of residual sanity shouldn't risk a threeway tie and vote for the rather shifty Legate"
"Lommy did say she had a busy day and I don'tlike his trumped up "case" against me."

Phantom – Manwe (5)
"Given my lack of experience with them I have no thoughts on Manwe or Nessa, but given the format (the fact that everyone gets to keep playing) I don't feel at all bad about lynching them in order to save someone I feel better about."

So Manwe 5, Legate 3, Nog 3, Lommy 2, Greenie 1, Nerwen 1, Nessa 1, Shasta 1.

[the phantom]

phantom, your first statement doesn't address my substance - that an accusation of Elrond's Daughter at this stage looks like a very easy course.
Yeah, well, concerning Daughter I'm frankly I little ticked (mostly at myself) that I was prepared to vote for her yesterday and allowed myself to be led towards Lottie. I can't help but think that had I focused my attentions on Daughter things might've gone differently, but instead I dutifully contributed to the lynching of a Cobbler (which is their whole point of existence). Yes, I didn't vote for her, but I definitely was pushing the bus along.
Your second is rather provocative. You're saying, according to your personal angle on things and sense of Mith's style, she's unlikely to have been Glorfindel? That, also, is my impression. But there's no need to give the impression that your supposition is a certainty
First question- answer is yes. But as far as certainty, I'm as certain as I can be without being specifically told, seeing as I narrowed the Glorfy/Hunter candidates down to three yesterday.
Your third point is unworthy of you; you won't win my trust by throwing around blame in that childish tone. We ought to work together. If we are actually both innocent then this is intensely frustrating. But that's not the way to convince me
Yeah well sorry, I'm not that happy. You see, there's yet another reason I'm frustrated and I don't have the time to do anything about it now and even had I realized it earlier I wouldn't have had time to make much headway.

You see, with roles not being revealed after kills, for the past couple of days I completely and entirely spaced the idea of the Seer being night-killed! Given this game set-up I noted early on that there would be no need for a Seer to do much idea-planting until Lovers and Glorfy were dead, as they could simply send back dreams with them to the living. So, as we haven't lost Glorfy, the Seer could've easily been on sneaky mode, especially if he suffered some bad luck with dreams dying. So it's completely possible the Seer died without giving us much to go on (it could've been Fea or Mith for instance), or in fact they did give us info to go on but I didn't bother looking for it because the Mod never said "The Seer died", if you follow.

Basically I just feel like I'm entirely off kilter due primarily to the fact that I've had roughly half of my usual prep and reading time (compared to what I'm used to), and perhaps growing from that is this emerging sense of paranoia that hearkens back to WW II in which me and the other talkative gentleman enthusiastically killed each other to leave alive an entire pack of quieter ladies, and at this time that's the concept that has taken root in my mind.

That's why I've sort of gone off of Boro a bit. I mean, his suspicion of Lottie mirrored my own, and his willingness to attack me to start the day is a mirror of the urge I had yesterday, and it somehow seems too easy. I mean really, after yesterday suspecting Boro and then perhaps you can say being led towards Lottie incorrectly by him it would seem to be a very good guess that I'd come into today intending to lynch him.

And thus I will not. If I'm going to go down the wrong road it's not going to be because of Wolfish tactics, leaving me alive because I've been wrong. Darn it, if I'm going to just completely lose this contest I'm going to do it my way! At least it won't be said that my reaction was predictable.

(x-post with everything since Glirdan)

[A Little Green]

DAY 2 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded. Quotations on the reasoning behind the vote included, comments in brackets mine.

Lommy – Wilwa
"I'm aware this is not the most reasoned of all votes, but call it a gut-feeling. Read her post where she quotes Boro. It's just somehow smug, the tone, she gives the impression that she is slightly less confused than the rest of us, which she would be if she only entered the game after nice Nightly briefing by her pack. Also, the wolves have more reason to enjoy the confusion than us, because after all, their objective is just to slaughter while we really need to watch out for what we're shooting at."

Greenie – Nog
"Nog's reaction to Agan and Shasta being lovers looks fishy, can't pinpoint it but there's something really off in that post."
"Since I figured a Nessa vote would be pretty much a throwaway. A bad premise, but that's it."

Agan – Nog (2)
"I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option."

Boro – Nog (3)
"Nog didn't address me about my suspicions of him. Notice what he did is say "well if you have a twitter impression, I've got a fb one" (paraphrase). Whatever that means I have no idea. And again instead of addressing me on my suspicions he tries to appeal to the rest of the village that I'm looking bad but he's not willing to get the noose around me yet. Waiting to see if there would be enough support?"
"Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it."

Glirdan – Nog (4)
"I'm not sure what I think of this, but somehting about it is not sitting right with me. Just because there appeared to be no last minute rescue-operation doesn't necessarily clear him of having been a Wolf. And looking back, there was the possibility of a wolf rescue mission, of none other then yourself. There were two votes, made by Ang and Nerwen, for Manwe that were made within ten minutes of each other. I doubt both of them are but I feel quite certain that at least one of them could be a Wolf with you. Very tempted to vote for you."

Sally – Boro
"I don't like some of the things I've seen regarding Boro, so he may get my vote"
"I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie."

Nessa – phantom
"I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere."

Legate – Nessa
"Hm, brilliant. Now if Nog is bad, this looked rather bad too. And, I mean, even if Nog is telling the truth, once again, it does not make much sense to lynch Cobbler at this point. So I don't see why immediately following and wishing to lynch phantom.

So, in fact, this might bring me even to vote Nessa once again."

Fea – Nog (5)
"I'm just going to push it through. He can yell at me post-game if he really is the seer, but I think his behavior up to and after his reveal screams sinister instead of seer. While I find it logical that a Seer-Nog would dream of Agan and the phantom, it doesn't mesh well with his earlier behavior and it's too easy to see those choices as, "I can say these and nobody has any power to deny it except for the true seer (hahaha!) or the phantom (who nobody believes anyway)!""

Wilwa – Nog (6)
"Actually, I'm getting really tired, so I'm just gonna go for it."

Phantom – Nog (7)
(Not even trying to get a quote here!)

Lottie – Nog (8)
"Because, even if he turns up Cobblerian rather than Wolfish, it's better than an innocent (and I'm sure you can gather which version of 'innocent' I meant)."

Ang – Nog (9)
"oh Nowgli, as the Americans pithily put it, shut up already
I tried but I just couldn't resist a second longer"
(there were arguments here too but really, it's a mess trying to get sensible sum-up quotes on why people wanted to vote Nog after his reveal.)

Mith – Nog (10)
"Well lets hope he is a wolf because (and in the light of events my idea wasn't such a good one as I thought at the time) we are also losing BG for good or ill most like."


EDIT: adding the total tally for the Day: Nog 10, Boro 1, Nessa 1, Phantom 1, Wilwa 1
EDIT2: messed up the boldings and italics. :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

So now you finally reveal, Ang? Heh heh... Might as well, considering the Wolves almost certainly knew who you were seeing as the night they attempted to kill Mith the following day you said she was as innocent as anyone in the village, among other things. I mean, it really didn't make any sense for the rest of us not to know who you were when the Wolves had such a keen guess for their purposes.

[Anguirel]

Heh heh indeed. I must say, phantom, you are at your most irritating right now. But also at your most innocent. That last post (by which I mean the really long frustrated one) rang as true as anything I've ever seen you write. Why, it even approached humility.

Now I really must go and eat and drink and be as merry as is prudent

[A Little Green]

DAY 3 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, known cobbler underlined, living players bolded.

Nerwen – Nessa
"Nessa's vote looks the most questionable to me– it has that same air of apologising for itself as her Day One vote; also her earlier post looked an attempt to downplay the suspicicion against him (and indeed, re-direct it)."

Greenie – Lommy
"Because out of my current top suspects Lommy and Nessa, she's the one that I find a less likely innocent. She quite simply isn't herself at all, she's jumpy and nervous and making weird arguments."

Boro – Lommy (2)
"So lemme be more blunt (and if this comes off as condescending I'm sorry now. I'm not insulted by anything you've or anyone else said). You were wrong then, you're still wrong now. Only then I wasn't going to hold it against you, because innocents especially can be wrong, and I thought you were trying to enact some playful Day 1 revenge since the last two times you've been wrong about my role. But now I see you're actually serious and this is worrying me. However you interpret from me saying "I feel good about you, even if you are wrong about me" as me giving you a cobbler hint and thinking you're a wolf, I haven't got a clue. And now you've turned my clear cobbler hint to you, into some kind of hint saying I'm a wolf?

You say I'm fishy? Really? Yet you've completely ignored baseless suspicions that are piling up against me. You don't think that's fishy? You're more thoughtful than this, Lommy. I hope you're a baddie, because I would hope an innocent Lommy wouldn't stand for the snow job against me right now, even if she was honestly suspicious of me for good reasons."

Legate – Nessa (2)
(does not elaborate, so I'm going to assume the reasons are the same as the previous Day)

Lommy – Nessa (3)
"Suspicious stuff Nessa has done, according to the posts I just read:
- is wishy-washy, doesn't really say much, is just merisuing around and acting confused
- wants to deadify helpful people (huh?)
- wants to be grateful dead (we should grant her that, eh? )
- on Day1 votes knee-jerkily AND to deadify someone AND apologises for it"

Sally – Nessa (4)
"She initially struck me as evil, and that impression hasn't changed. Thus, death to her."

Nessa – Lommy (3)
"Because I don't want to die, and she has the closest number of votes. I do, however, feel like the cases against her are quite valid."

Agan – Boro
"Out of him and Lommy, he looks worse. It does look like he was trying to hint at her, and now that she's suspecting him because of it, trying to save his face."

Elra – Lommy (4)
"Because despite her endearing comparison of me to Pooh, she seems (to me, at least) to be playing oddly.

Besides, if it turns out she's innocent, she's one of those "helpful ghost" candidates.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a double-lynch. That would be bad. Ugh."

Mith – Lommy (5)
"For me, well she isn't as I remember her being when innocent but since that feelingy stuff isn't helpful to third party, it always rings alarm bells when people stay stuff which patently isn't true. It isn't plausible that she could have read Shasta's post 411 thoroughly and not been aware of the dead starting to vote. If she had read it and been a suprised innocent then surely she would have checked the rules. Feigning ignorance of the situation is a wolf tactic I ahve encountered before I find it really suspicious, Trying to make it some kind of personal attack is simply evading the issue.

I just can't believe she is on the side of the angels and if a baddie I would say wolf because the cobblers would need Shasta's info for their own ends. The wolves already know who is a wolf,"

Glirdan – Nessa (5)
"She's been very one line posts with no substance and very few thoughts of her own, mainly just tail-coating off everything that other people have said. I don't like it, and it's a tactic used to often by newbie wolves."

Wilwa – Boro (2)
"Even if this won't do much, if I don't vote I'll get modfired tomorrow (since I can't come on next Day). Just copying Agan..."

Phantom – Lommy (6)
"I wish to kill Lommy primarily because of the vibe she gave off with her Day 1 Cobbler pointing/instructions, and it seems to me she's continued to be unable to completely shake off that attitude because (so I think) she's a Wolf and thus finding Cobblers is the only help she can offer. And her comment about how Cobblers would have all sorts of brilliant stuff planned... just the way she said it made me think that it was almost a plea/demand "You'd better have some schemes to help us, Cobblers!"

Plus she's a Penguin."

Lottie – Nessa (6)
"I'm definitely leaning more towards Nessa. There are a lot of points where Lommy strikes me as quite innocent, and none where Nessa does so."

So: Lommy 6, Nessa 6, Boro 2

[A Little Green]

Aaaand DAY 4 VOTES. Known non-wolves in italics, living players bolded.

Ang – Lottie
"Loslote, on the other hand, calmly, securely and fully "within-universe", is I believe ingratiating herself with someone she knows is innocent. I don't think her less substantive defence of sally, on the other hand, rules them out as allies. It is empty, neither one thing not the other, a mental shrug designed to shake off interest in sally just as a wolf partner might wish."

Greenie – Sally
"I'm finding Sally rather fishy at the moment. Less so if she answers my questions. (Though that depends on the answers actually..) Her Day 2 vote was not given proper reasons for, she's held to that suspect since but still hasn't told why; also, her sudden reluctance at having her dead top suspect's role revealed looks bad to me."

Nerwen – Elra
"for looking an awful lot like a wolf-cub."

Sally – Lottie (2)
(not present in person so no reasoning attached)

Lottie – Wilwa
"I'll have to vote a lot sooner than I thought I would, so I'm going to do something rather silly/stupid and go for one of our quieter people. I'm not saying she's a sub - I know she's busy in RL and everything - but I don't have anything better at the moment, so..."

Glirdan – Ang
"Okay, that's it, ten minutes left and I'm going to vote and I'm going to stick with my gut on this one"
"I just feel more strongly about Angu being guilty then the rest of them"

Mith – Lottie (3)
"Don't suspect ang dn 't want to risk multi lynch on a feeble day."

Phantom – Elra (2)
"Out of Daughter and Sally, the former makes the most sense to me at this time, but I do admit that I haven't given Sally a proper read. If it does come down to those two, I will do my best to make myself more informed before I vote."
(Actual reasoning behind the vote remains a questionmark. Wanting to save Lottie after all, or what? Elaboration please?)

Elra – Boro
"Arghh! Okay. Shot in the dark."

So: Lottie 3, Elra 2, Ang 1, Boro 1, Wilwa 1, Sally 1.

[the phantom]

Completely forgot to address your point on double-lynches, Glirdan-

Doubles are completely different from day to day. On Day 1 they are evil. There are no kills to base suspicions on plus a high number of innocents, so you're basically begging for mass Ordo-death with a Day 1 double. Once you have actual suspects though and a lower population, take the risk if you really wish to. Sometimes they're downright useful (see Fea's first Rep game).

Anyway, got to run. Be back on as soon as I get to work.

[Glirdan]

Well now, I have no idea what to do and I have to vote relatively soon, made no easier by Ang's reveal as Glorfy. I am definitely more inclined to believe this reveal then Nog's. He seems to have done it out of pure frustration with phantom as opposed to Nog's reveal which was to save his own skin.

Phantom, I understand your frustrations with the double lynch now, but your phrasing on the Day afterwards still has me unnerved. However, your last long post in response to Angu has me thinking you more along the lines of innocent. The tone of it seems to me that you, like Angu are just greatly frustrated with everything to date, including Boro's incessant attack on you. I'm still unsure as to whether or not you're innocent, or maybe a really clever Cobbler (which I would not put past you), but at this time, I do not think I will vote for you.

And thank you Greenie for those vote recaps. It's nice to be able to look at them on one page instead of having to go back and look at them and the things leading up to it on about ten different pages. :rolleyes: And now I'm going to take a good look at them and before I vote. Maybe something there will help me make my decision.

As it stands, my current candidates are Elra and Boro.

[elronds_daughter]

Thank you, dear Ang, for the reveal. This helps matters immensely.

Also, apologies for my lack of posts toDay - It's a Friday, hence I'm gone for 9 straight hours. And before that I sleep. So.

Haven't had time to read over Greenie's vote-analysis/condensation, but I'll get to that.

Phantom, to address your (much) earlier query about my vote yesterDay: I had had a particularly busy day, so my vote was entirely random. No rhyme or reason, other than finding someone who wouldn't die because of my vote, since I didn't have time to vote well.

EDIT: Oh, and:

I would appreciate the help of my hunting comrade. We may then properly assess their claim, among other things.

That would be me.

[Glirdan]

EDIT: Oh, and:


I would appreciate the help of my hunting comrade. We may then properly assess their claim, among other things.
That would be me.

Well, that makes things even more frustrating and I really wish I had more time to stay and post and look over this claim (as I'm leery of it, but it would make sense for a the Hunter to be a submarine), but I really have to vote and go to work as I am unsure as to whether or not I will be back in time for DL.

So, to go with my other remaining suspect

++Boro

Between him and phantom, I'm more inclined to believe in phantom's innocence. The way Boro has been steering the village (like phantom) has just got me on edge and unnerved. And his incessant attack of phantom almost seems as if it may be a Wolf trying to be rid of his most deadly enemy. Yes, it's true that both have been doing (the steering that is) it and quite possibly for their own gains, but as it stands (and I'm basing my vote pretty much off the past two days as I have not the time to properly look back), Boro just seems more guilty. Nothing in his posts as of late has me convinced that what he's been saying is for the greater good of the camp.

Anyways, I wish I could stay around and see further events unfold and make a more informed vote, but I have to head to work.

[satansaloser2005]

I have no idea who to vote for now. >.<


I'll have to work up a short post, but it'll take me a bit. Back soon.

[the phantom]

Ah, a Boro vote, and a Daughter reveal, eh? Things are really starting now. Taking sides and whatnot... I do believe I'll give it some time before addressing all angles of this. But for now, since Boro got a vote, I will say that there is an important aspect of Boro's behavior we should not ignore, which would be his desire to kill me.

Those who have played many games with me, I ask you, what is a nearly guaranteed way to attack someone without success and put yourself at risk for a severe backlash? Answer: attack Phantom.

I mean really, I simply do not get lynched in traditional fashion. I was lynched with consent as part of a game-clinching mass lynch orchestrated partly by me in one of Fea's games. Then earlier in another one of Fea's game I was offed the final day because I was forced to vote early in a village which did not actually contain any WWs. The only time I've truly been lynched (yes, just ONCE) was back when WW first started on the Downs, in that infamous game I referenced earlier.

Boro has got to know that, especially given my positioning on him yesterday. Coming out guns blazing against me on a day like today is to me a sure sign of desperate (and mistaken) innocence or reckless Cobblery. He should know as well as anyone on this site that a Phantom-lynch is going to grind to a halt. It always does. Time and again and again... honestly given my track record I ought to feel a bit silly for getting outraged by people voting me. It never works.

And regarding Ang's reveal, I will definitely be accepting it without reservation, as it would be an indication that I'm not completely off on everything. (You were by far and away my prime Glorfy suspect, sir.)

Green- thanks for the votes. I ought to take a look at them.

[A Little Green]

NOT VOTING FOR TODAY:

Anguirel - Believing his claim for now. Quite frankly, I see little reason not to at the time being.

Elra - Believing her claim for now. I'm still unsure of whether there is any sense in Hunter reveals in general, but she's certainly off the hook - and in a game of this sort (or any sort) fake-revealing as the hunter is not really a smart move anyway.

WHICH LEAVES:

Glirdan (Day 1 Lommy (2), Day 2 Nog (4), Day 3 Nessa (5), Day 4 Ang)
Easy votes, which unnerves me. He doesn't strike me as particularly evil otherwise, though; but since (apart from the Ang-vote yesterDay) he has always voted for someone I suspected too, I might be a bit biased here.

Nerwen (Day 1 Manwe (4), Day 2 no vote (or did I miss it?), Day 3 Nessa, Day 4 Elra)
Seems to have consistently voted for a less vocal player, though never mentions that as a reason. Maybe it wasn't. This could go either way (again). On one hand, it makes me think better of her that she isn't latching onto the attention-seeking loudmouths and giving them the attention (always a good strategy for a smooth wolf: the perfect way to slip by unnoticed); but then again, quiet players make for easy targets too.. My brain hurts. Non-vote-wise, I have little on her which is alarming. I'd check her posts if I had the time, which I sadly don't.

Sally (Day 1 no vote, Day 2 Boro, Day 3 Nessa (4), Day 4 Lottie (2))
Wasn't really around yesterDay which would make me hesitant to vote her toDay unless she has time to reappear properly (and continue to look fishy). Since she wasn't here yesterDay, though, my past suspicions haven't changed. Leaning evil.

the phantom (Day 1 Manwe (5), Day 2 Nog (7), Day 3 Lommy (6), Day 4 Elra (2))
He's another hmm. His tone strikes me more as an innocent Phantom - though if he's around, I'd like to hear his reasoning behind voting Elra yesterDay. If Lottie turns out to be a wolf (which I doubt; I thought she seemed rather innocentish) phantom looks worse, but for now he's leaning innocent.

Boro (Day 1 Legate (2), Day 2 Nog (3), Day 3 Lommy (2), Day 4 no vote (again unless I missed it))
I'm not comfortable with him. I didn't like that unreasoned vote for Legate on Day 1, even though he did turn out to be a cobbler. I don't know what to make of his row with Lommy on Day 3, either. On the whole, Boro is a bunch of messy questions in my head right now.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[the phantom]

though if he's around, I'd like to hear his reasoning behind voting Elra yesterDay.
Because Lottie seemed such a Cobbler, and I didn't want her to be able to do the "Gotcha!" dance in my face after the game.

Green (and others, actually), I'd like to know what the latest time is you'll be around, because I'd like to know how soon any discussions need to be wrapped up by.

[the phantom]

Ang, a little whisper for you... I believe you had some right beliefs in your head on Day 2, if you can correctly recall the page you were on back then. Or at least we'll see if I was reading you correctly...

[A Little Green]

Green (and others, actually), I'd like to know what the latest time is you'll be around, because I'd like to know how soon any discussions need to be wrapped up by.I'm going really really soon (it's 1 AM here, and I've been up since 7 in the morning). Just basically voting and going..

[the phantom]

Well crap. You're leaving, and no one else seems to be around.

I'm particularly irritated that Boro is gone, as despite his already cast vote he could prove quite helpful to me.

Boro- IF YOU HAPPEN TO SKIM OR SCAN THIS THREAD, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO POST, PLEASE DO SO ANYWAY. SKIP WORK. I DON'T CARE.

[A Little Green]

My number one option would be Sally still, since she's the one I have the strongest evil vibes from. I've heard no one else voice suspicion of her though so I'm wavering - spreading out the votes too much toDay could be disastrous with so few of us left.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[A Little Green]

Yes, I'm not too fond of the DL... This is the closest to deadline I've been here throughout the entire game! I'd like to hear from Boro too, not to mention Sally. Gah. Why stay up late playing WW if there's almost no one around?

[A Little Green]

Votes so far:

Boro - phantom
Glirdy - Boro

Left to vote:

Ang, Elra, Greenie, Nerwen, phantom, Sally

(What a helpful post. Wanted to check if there had been any more votes than these two. Apparently not.)

[the phantom]

I can't speak to Sally's guilt or innocence, but I can tell you it's a better option than any of the gentleman on your list. Of course you may be a Wolf yourself so why would you bother listening, but so long as you don't plan on voting for a fellow I see no need for me to say any more at this time.

[A Little Green]

Hmm. It's really bed time now. I'm going to go with

++ Sally

after all. I figured bringing in a third lynch candidate won't hurt. I'd hate to see this turn into a "phantom versus Boro" -Day, though I am aware that it's already doing so. Besides, Sally is the only one who feels clearly more evil than not to me, and at this stage I'd feel silly going after anyone else.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom

[the phantom]

Ang- have you pieced the entire thing together, or at least the what and why, and used that to make clearer sense of emotions you've seen?

[the phantom]

Time is ticking, sir knight. If Boro arrives back I won't really need your support at all, as I am quite confident I could get him to see my way with a brief exchange, but if he's truly gone for the day then you are the one person above all others that I need to convince of my case.

[Anguirel]

Relax. I'm here, and reading carefully. We still have four hours (give or take one or two, I've always admitted I'm no good at counting). I'm just a dumb blond and I need a while to work out what the hell you're trying to tell me.

There's a party downstairs (I can discern Blondie) but my commitment is total

[the phantom]

If it helps, my last defense of Boro (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=648769&postcount=701)), while accurate, is only part of the point. The other pressing point is contained within the first paragraph, with special emphasis on the final sentence.

(edit: Computer lab I monitor has gotten quite busy. I'll check the thread when I have the chance.)

[Anguirel]

OK Boro and phantom, I think we're quite close to being able to three musketeer this thing out

Which a tempting idea anyway, I must admit, in crude terms. phantom earlier suggested this thing was a bit of a battle of the sexes, nobly loudmouthed male innocents being persecuted by cigarette-holder wielding Mata Haris. It would be funny to turn the tables on such an arrangement. Although coming too clean about that might see us go down to neutral, angered damoiselles...

I believe the huntress Elron, by the way. It makes a lot of emotional sense, and one of the cardinal rules of this game is that the psychological effect of a special role impacts in a way that often makes one look just like a wolf.

I should add some empirical information - at the beginning of this game I was truly a Feanorian innocent (which is why you'll find my early posts larded with Seer hints, as I thought the best way I could serve my side would be to absorb a night kill then help in Mandos). Blind Guardian was an, I take it, inactive Glorfindel and is now a dead innocent.

Among these either two or three are gulity:

Nerwen
A Little Green
sally

Glirdan is a possibility too of course but I have developed a temporary, rough and ready trust in him (because he's male. No not really. I prefer the company of the opposite sex and would like to be dancing to Blondie with them right now were it not for this alternatively blond enterprise)

sally, as I have noted, has what looks like a good - if frighteningly deadly - voting record UNLESS we are in really dire straights and face three wolves. This is upsetting as, of the three, I'm most inclined to go after her, but that's basically because she's most inclined to go after me and I have to think bigger.

That leaves us with two alternatives, both of whom have been quiet, sensible and helpful, Nerwen in the persistent clarity of her theorising, Green (is your name a Joni Mitchell thing?) in dealing with incredibly boring, neutral spadework about voting records.

I'm afraid I'd rather vote for one of these two - and I'd like the support of you noisy chauvinist hooligans, phantom and Boro...of the two, I'm leaning Green as she is trying to shoot down sally who still seems quite unlikely to me

ps no phantom, havenae a clue what you're on about. It seems to me that my only really good Day 2 suggestion was that there might be ten werewolves, and I still wouldn't be that surprised

[Anguirel]

Oh right. If you're just telling me to hang A Little Green, well you'll see I eventually reached the same conclusion (though not in a manner that had aught to do with Day 2). It must be said that Nerwen and Green look like very plausible colleagues of Loslote, in terms of voting...

I'm sorry if I'm being unByzantine here, phantom. I'm alright at lying, and I absolutely love the strategy of actively second guessing nocturnal amusement, but I am useless at cryptography. Actually had to take an exam in it a few months back. Worst candidate they'd had for years

[Anguirel]

look, I'm just an honest Eng Lit graduate, I don't know these complicated long words like paragraphs and sentences

hence I identified the wrong sentence

it's kind of late, what can I say. I'm sure the wolves know what you're into

You seem to want to scrutinise Boro, probs to the point of death, without exactly saying as much. Could you do me a favour and put that plan on hold? I want to lynch somebody really helpful and pleasant instead. Give Mith some agreeable company, etc

[the phantom]

Overrun with kids right now... Likely free within 30-40 minutes.

(No, no- I don't want to kill Boro! That's probably the worst tactical move we could possibly make. I'll lay things out soon as possible. Hopefully others will speak too before then so I can see leanings first rather than just reactions.)

[elronds_daughter]

Well, I have to do this on my (quickly dying) phone, so if there's any advice you all could give (in a nice consice manner) as to who I ought to target... I will admit that I had been picking phantom, but now that our numbers have ddwindled, he's looking a LOT more innocent. I really am not sure about the others besides Boro (i agree with phantom here, I think lynching him would be bad (mostly because he still doesn't strike me as wolfish).

Anyway, advice would be appreciated, since I won't be surprised if I get dead tonight.

Not sure yet who I'll be voting. Whoever's logic looks thinnest, I suppose (and isn't tp or Boro or Ang). Hopefully I'll have time for more than just a cursory examination.

[Anguirel]

Elron, Phantom, shall we go Green?

EDIT: Elron, who are you thinking of targetting tonight? Or would you rather not go into that?

EDIT: Sorry, you said. Am getting to jittery to process. Errrr...

[Anguirel]

we've lost two precious likely innocent votes, those of Boro and Glirdan. We have to stick together

Elron, had you chosen phantom every night? Surely not, that's dedicated unease beyond even my capacities. Oh well, doesn't matter much now

I would target whichever of Nerwen or Green we don't kill today...seem reasonable? It really is down to process of elimination rather than positive guilt now. We're left with some deeply spotless looking wolves

[the phantom]

Well, either everyone is gone or they are afraid to put their foot in it.

So, here it is. Boro is the Hunter, folks. THAT is why I was so incredibly upset by his vote for me and then (it seems) leaving early before I have a chance to do anything. If you kill me, not good. If you kill him, you very likely kill the both of us (or at least I guess that I would be his Hunter pick).

Wonder no more why I spotted Nog's impending false reveal so incredibly early. I was looking for such things.

Ang- I sort of thought you were thinking it on Day 2, though for the wrong reason, as I actually did not know you to be innocent at the time.

The most difficult thing for me to discern currently is if Daughter is Cobbler or Wolf. I actually considered holding off on my reveal once she looked likely to go along with me (I had hopes that she was a Cobbler and could be persuaded to vote incorrectly), but the possibility of her being a Wolf I thought was too great to allow the chance of the Dead handing her a double vote.

I wish so badly that I could produce good news about remaining voters (Nerwen and Sally for instance), but instead I only know the innocence of those who have already voted (Glirdan & Boro) and thus I cannot hope to gain their voting assistance. I'm at quite a disadvantage in that regard, especially with Daughter still holding her vote there and the fact that I am suggesting it is likely that there is another Wolf among our remaining voters.

BORO- IF YOU'RE SKIMMING OR ANYTHING PLEASE PLEASE POST!! One post from you and I'm pretty well proven.

So yes, all my posturing and positioning etc. Just simply that. Though I was in truth hoping to glean from Ang yesterday if he had perhaps protected me, as I naturally would have come out at that time had he indicated such.

(leaving for home, be there soon, so fire away if you have questions)

[Anguirel]

oh damn I shouldn't have advised you; look, you mustn't let the wolves predict what you do. Whatever you do at night, keep it to yourself (oo-er no innuendo intended etc). It's your vote today that's of absolutely crucial importance

Phantom's been a lot longer than he said he would be. I feel like the sentry at the beginning of Hamlet, hanging on and praying for relief...

[Anguirel]

oh, there goes the Ghost of Old Hamlet

and there too goes the cosy progressive alliance, and my chance of an early night...

The only way phantom is lying is if he knew Boro wouldn't contradict him about something he didn't really know, ie Boro is a fellow wolf (desperately unlikely) or phantom has clocked him as a Cobbler who will stay quiet (quite possible).

phantom has laid off Boro all today (he rebuked him and me in frustration, not accusation) and did seem more genuinely at war with him yesterday. If he is the Seer, it makes sense that he dreamed of his major enemy.

What I want, phantom, is to know your criteria for narrowing down suspected identities of myself and the hunter

However this goes I've made a fool of myself which is really irritating. I shall go and comb my golden hair therapeutically for a bit

[elronds_daughter]

Phantom is either deeply confused or lying.

I do not like this turn of events.

EDIT: I would also like an explanation, good sir.

[satansaloser2005]

I'm here. Sorry, got rather kidnapped. Thinking about possibilities now....

Should we lynch Elra? If she's telling the truth, we can decide her picks based on our two top suspects, but if not we rid ourselves of an evil (direct or indirect). Just a quick think. :/


ETA: x'd. And Phantom, if you're going to say something, say it straight. I want to see it.

[Anguirel]

If we lynch Elrond's while her longbow is aimed at the phantom and she is truthful...good work. If she's not, we risk getting a cobbler, not a wolf

here are the two "models"

PHANTOM MODEL

phantom – Seer
Glirdan – Innocent
Boro – Hunter
Me – Glorfindel
sally - ?
Nerwen - ?
Green - ?
Elron – Cobbler/Wolf

ELRON MODEL

phantom – Wolf
Glirdan - ?
Boro - Cobbler
Me – Glorfindel
sally - ?
Nerwen -?
Green - ?
Elron - Hunter

if that helps...

[Anguirel]

I should add that, though it means have to swallow some gall for the millionth time today, I currently buy phantom's account more readily than Elra's. You are right, sally, in that lynching Elra does seem to be the best compromise in a way. But is a compromise what we need?

[satansaloser2005]

Sally's predictions

Glirdan: innocent-ish
Green: cobbler
Elra: hunter or wolf
Nerwen: wolf
Sally: ordo
Phantom: wolf or innocent
Boro: cobbler or hunter
Ang: gifted or wolf



Note that innocent=/=ordo. I have a crackpot idea about Phantom but I don't care to share. Nerwen is evil, period, and must die. I will also support a Greenie lynch.

Sorry I'm so direct and unexplanatory, but it's hard to do "proper" posts from my phone. :/

[satansaloser2005]

I should add that, though it means have to swallow some gall for the millionth time today, I currently buy phantom's account more readily than Elra's. You are right, sally, in that lynching Elra does seem to be the best compromise in a way. But is a compromise what we need?


Yes. However, if Elra is a cobbler, this is exactly what she would want, and it may lead us to our doom. But it would validate her claim, your, Phantom's, and the claims Phantom made about Glirdan and Boro. If Elra's targets (assuming she really has any) are Nerwen and Greenie, and the real hunter (assuming she isn't) chooses the same picks, there's no way for us to lose.

The hunter's job is to die. Let's give Elra some work to do, eh?

[Anguirel]

sally I've just understood your nickname - to do with having cake and eating it, right?

There's a third model we should mention in honour of the (probably) inglorious dead, the Nogrod model. It's the same as the Elron model but according to it Boro is the wolf and phantom the cobbler

sally, do you genuinely doubt my claim? It would preeetty helpful not to, you know. It's not like I can't prove it (if the wolves don't beat us very soon indeed). I came out of hiding - a comfortable place - because the camp needed a ranger to rally round, and I am that ranger. Or rather, elf-lord

[satansaloser2005]

Ang, I believe you, at least until you're proven false (which I hope won't happen). I've an awful luck of hunting down gifteds instead of wolves, which is why your claim makes sense to me.

And actually, I just got sick of being called Stan. :p

(They were going to call me Sal, but that sounded too masculine so it ended up as Sally.)

[the phantom]

Home and posting...

[Anguirel]

Oh, I meant the cupcake thing

Yes. However, if Elra is a cobbler, this is exactly what she would want, and it may lead us to our doom. But it would validate her claim, your, Phantom's, and the claims Phantom made about Glirdan and Boro. If Elra's targets (assuming she really has any) are Nerwen and Greenie, and the real hunter (assuming she isn't) chooses the same picks, there's no way for us to lose.

The hunter's job is to die. Let's give Elra some work to do, eh?

difficulty here. It's been as you know a long time for me but don't lynched hunters kill their last pick? So phantom would go down. That wouldn't be too bad though, after all, as if Elron has the power she claims he is guilty of something.

How many malevolent votes do you reckon are left? If three exist still, we are in very serious trouble by phantom's account

[satansaloser2005]

Oh. Yes, indeed. Cupcakes. ^_^

Well I'm assuming the hunter can change their pick, unless Rikae decides to not allow it. And I don't recall whether the hunter is an intelligent one or not. I feel so useless. :/

Also, the dead need to PLEASE SHUT UP. It's far too tempting to go creep on you. >.<

[satansaloser2005]

About the votes, I suppose it depends on who's telling the truth. I'm an innocent who still has yet to vote, but I don't know for certain about any of the others. :/

[satansaloser2005]

Phantom: if you're the seer, what else do you know? I want everything. Now.

ETA: Erm, please. :Merisu:

[Anguirel]

It's a normal 'illogical' hunter. I think that just means they can whack innocents point blank range by accident. And I think if lynched by day the last choice stands...?

Let the dead talk if it makes Rikae more pleased with her petri dish...

Incidentally, do you think either Nessa or Loslote were wolves?

[the phantom]

And Phantom, if you're going to say something, say it straight. I want to see it.
Sorry, lass, but I wanted to give every opportunity to the baddies to sniff my move ahead of time and false reveal, as it would yield yet another piece to the puzzle, and I also wanted to see which way people were pushing before additional knowledge was added. It really irks me that during that whole time period no one showed up that really mattered.

Night 1 was Fea. Surprise, surprise. Her behavior is so counter to mine that I find her very difficult to read and often try and get her killed for the sake of convenience. This time I wished to break with tradition.

Night 2 was not Ang (on Day 2 I sort of had the impression that you believed I had dreamed you, where as that wasn't actually the case). Night 2 was Shasta. Flippin Shasta. :rolleyes: I was more wary of him than I let on Day 1, which I thought would be a good tactic should I have found him to be evil. But of course I didn't. And perhaps this explains why I reacted as I did to Shasta's killing and the notion that he appeared to be a Lover. I took great offense to the idea as it not only insinuated poor play from Shasta but a stupid selection from me.

Night 3- that was you, Ang. The way you reacted to me the day before I actually thought would be quite a good tactical position for a Wolf (your comment to Fea about the two of you dying I thought stemmed from my belief in the innocence of the two of you). Then you could kill me at Night and say, "They probably thought he was the Seer due to him declaring me and Fea innocent" if you follow.

Night 4 was Glirdan. I wondered if he was using his certainty about Wilwa as a look-good shield. Nope, he wasn't.

Night 5 was Boro, hence my frustration with him.

I wasn't concerned with revealing much, as for one thing the village looked much larger before Legate and Wilwa were zapped, and for another thing I had Glorfy in my pocket. So long as he was alive I didn't greatly fear death, as he could carry my dreams back to the living and I could organize the Dead to hand an extra vote to the person who looked most likely to slay someone that I didn't know to be innocent. If the lynch mob had gone Ang's way yesterday I would've outed (as we would've been on the verge of losing my link), but as things worked out I just never saw a reason to, seeing as I had never at any point identified a freaking single Cobbler or Wolf (the primary root of my annoyance).

So, while I may have been a relatively bad Seer, I think my overall approach was quite good, and I feel this info gives us some hope. (I'm also rather hoping that either Nessa or Lottie was a Wolf, but we'll see I guess.)

[satansaloser2005]

Ang, if I may ask, what was with the "I'd almost rather die" nonsense? Ranger hints? 'Cause that looked mighty weird, mate.

And at least one of Lottie or Nessa was a wolf. They had to be.

[Rikae]

Rule clarification: The hunter can change their pick Day or Night, and is illogical, meaning the one picked will die regardless of role.

[Anguirel]

Sigh. Clearly true. All that stuff to me about Day 2 and emotion too weird to have arranged in advance.

If there are still three wolves though we are in such big trouble. And if there are three wolves and a cobbler...I think we could still prevail statistically, but the effort would be superelven

[Anguirel]

If you read my posts you'll find I explained that in passing. I wasn't Glorfindel at that point, and I expressed my deathwish basically because it was true, but also vaguely because as an innocent I hoped to soak up a Seer kill and then do cool tactical stuff of some variety in Mandos

[Anguirel]

phantom - you said, today, I had been in your last three suspects to be Glorfindel/a Hunter. Was this just an obscuration of your knowledge's full extent or did you mean something specific by it?

[Nerwen]

So, in my absence we've had a Ranger reveal, a Seer reveal, and two competing Hunter reveals?

EDIT:X'd with some Anguirels.

[satansaloser2005]

If you read my posts you'll find I explained that in passing. I wasn't Glorfindel at that point, and I expressed my deathwish basically because it was true, but also vaguely because as an innocent I hoped to soak up a Seer kill and then do cool tactical stuff of some variety in Mandos



Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I get it. >.<

Also, Rikae, thanks for the clarification. :)

[Anguirel]

Nope. A Glorfindel reveal, a Hunter reveal, and a Seer reveal that encompassed the revelation of a separate Hunter claim...

...have to get these things right at this point, puppy...

[satansaloser2005]

So, in my absence we've had a Ranger reveal, a Seer reveal, and two competing Hunter reveals?

EDIT:X'd with some Anguirels.


Ain't life grand?


I'll be back in five minutes with a helpful chart.

[the phantom]

Whatever we do we need to vote together. I agree that Daughter is a good compromise candidate (for those who doubt my claim), but of course the primary problem with that from my perspective is I know she's false and it seems to me that she's a more likely Cobbler than Wolf. A false declaration of Hunterhood from a Wolf pretty well invites the real Hunter to kill him, doesn't it? Unless of course it's the usual double-bluff do the obvious thing... I don't know... It almost depends on who her partner(s) is as to whether or not I think she'd try such a thing.

Sally and Nerwen are left to vote, and of the two I do in fact suspect Sally the most, but I can hardly expect her to help with her own lynching. And Daughter's help is out of the question. It would require a unified Ang, Nerwen, and Phantom with the aid of the extra Dead vote. How likely is it that one of us holds the extra vote?

Green is the other good compromise besides Daughter since she has already voted, however she is the one I least suspect of the girls. Bleh.

Assume for a minute we've killed one Wolf then.... Should we kill Daughter today, we can assume Ang can buy me another night with which I will view Sally, Nerwen, or Green. IF we only have two WWs left here, then there would be enough of us to vote down a Wolf if I caught one, and if I don't catch one then it would be a debate between two candidates, yes? And of course with our Hunter still up our sleeve for killing the remaining Wolf, along with a protecting Ang.... That actually doesn't seem impossible.

I suppose my view is- it doesn't do to dwell on the possibility of a three-Wolf pack with votes in their paws still, as that's simply a loss.

Ang- what are you thinking?

(edit: x-posted with several)