Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Rikae]

Welcome to Werewolf 86 - The Halls of Mandos!

This is an experimental game with an additional game thread for the dead.

This is the game thread for the living: we are a first age village of elves that is beset by werewolves. The living may post here during the Day; the dead may only read.

Living players who do not vote for two consecutive days will be modfired (moved to the dead thread) unless the player in question is Sally and the Days in question are 1 and 2.

Macalaure is the co-mod.

Multiple lynches of any number of players are allowed. Use it for good, not for evil (unless evil floats your boat).

Roles will not be revealed upon death.

The roles are:

-3 wolves. Normal wolf pack.
Living wolves can PM one another by Night, and dead wolves can PM one another at any time. Living wolves, however, cannot communicate with dead wolves.

-3 cobblers. No special powers.

-Beren and Lúthien - Lovers: when one dies, xe spends 1 Day among the dead, then returns to the living for 1 Day, after which both die. Aligned with the village, win if village wins.

-Glorfindel - Ranger: like the lovers, Glorfindel will spend 1 Day in Mandos and then return to the living the Day after that. Before his return, he has one protection per Night; after his return, he will have the ability to protect two people every Night. He can protect himself. He cannot protect a person twice in a row.

-Seer. Normal seer, except that xe continues to dream after xer death. Can only dream of the living when alive, can only dream of the dead after his death. Can detect cobblers.

-Hunter. Normal illogical hunter.

The living:

Shasta
Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea
Macalaure
Rikae

Night 1 begins at 11 pm EST. Turn yourself invisible and check your PM box for your role.

[Macalaure]

It is the year 100 of the Sun. Arien and Tilion shine upon the vast greens of Ard-Galen, where the Elves gloriously lay siege to the dark fortress of Angband.

This is the strange account of a group of twenty-two Elven riders of the House of Finarfin, obeying the orders of Angrod and Aegnor, patroling the grassy plains surrounding the Dark Lord's abide. Despite the due watchfulness of the scouts, this patrol did not promise to be any less uneventful as the usual one during these days of long peace.

After several days of scouting, and being many days of riding away from home, things happened the party did not, and could not, expect. They were about to set camp for the night, when in the twilight six evil spirits were lurking near them, undiscovered. They were waiting for the night to fall, biding their time to prey upon the Elven guards.

But they did not intend to kill them, nor capture them into slavery.

They had far worse in mind.


(It is now Night1. Wolves plot. Seer dream. Lovers may start pm'ing.)

[Rikae]

Night fell on the Elven scouts and - leaving two to guard the camp - they fell asleep.


On the six crept stealthily, evading the spiritual senses of Elf and beast. Each of the six chose a sleeping victim and sneaked towards them imperceptibly.


Simultaneously they entered their prey, and what happened to these poor souls in that moment, who can tell? The spirits put Morgoth's dark arts to use and changed them from the inside, turning goodness to evil, purity to corruption, and sanity to madness. The three more powerful ones then proceeded to change the bodies of their victims, so that they would still resemble their former selves in daylight, but during the night they would turn into abominations - vile beasts that would gruesomely slaughter anyone brave or foolish enough to oppose them: werewolves!


The spirits worked quietly enough to not wake anyone, but the guards became wary and the horses restless. The wolves knew what they had to do.


*~*


The next morning, the Elven riders saw what the night had wrought: A sight of unimaginable bloodshed of bodies and limbs of twenty-two horses lay around them, and in their midst, the mangled, dead bodies of their two guards, Rikae and Macalaure.


Day one has begun. Wolves stop PMing, hunter make your pick.


You may now post.


The living:

Shasta
Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea


The dead:
Macalaure
Rikae

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Not the horses! Anything but the horses!

...Well, and Rikae and Mac too, I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

Well, really. The horses and everything? Naughty, naughty werewolves. [/IC (insane cauterwaling? inadequate characterization?)]

Well, I think, with this new Dead Thread thing, we should adopt a new way of determining guilt. We've always known that among the first three people to post hides a werewolf. Let's switch that up a bit - among the first three people to sign up hides a werewolf! Talk about meta reasoning! This'll be awesome! We'll lynch either Shasta, Nog, or Agan. Sound good? :D *pause for cheering and such*

I thought so. :Merisu:

EDIT: xed with The Icicle Himself! :D

[the phantom]

Ai, ai, my horse has been slain! We passed through many battles together! She deserved a more noble death than this mauling! A curse upon Morgoth for his evil works!

Oh... and that's too bad about Mac and Rikae too. They seemed like okay people, but maybe we should've picked different guards. Those two had a habit of shirking their duties in favor of.... other things.

(edit: Ha ha! Nice x-post Shasta! I swear I didn't copy you. :D)

[Loslote]

I think this proves Shasta Icicle and The Puddingtom are packmates. Let's lynch 'em. Who's with me? :p

[the phantom]

Lottie- you should vote me for Rep, right away! :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

If the Phantom gets a rep-vote, my head will explode. Again. That is all. :rolleyes:

(Hi Phantom, nice of you to join us. :Merisu:)

[the phantom]

Yes, well, I simply had to join once I discovered that I get to make noise from beginning to end no matter what happens.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Yes, well, I simply had to join once I discovered that I get to make noise from beginning to end no matter what happens.

:Merisu: I would have thought that would appeal to you.

[Glirdan]

[QUOTE=tp]Yes, well, I simply had to join once I discovered that I get to make noise from beginning to end no matter what happens[quote] and for this and this reason only I say we keep him alive......that way he can only cause headaches in one area :rolleyes:

[the phantom]

Okay, so, here's what we know thus far....

Shasta- Seer!
Nogrod- Hunter!
Aganzir- Ordo
Glirdan- Cobbler!
Green- Ordo
Nerwen- Beren!
Lottie- Wolf!
Wilwa- Ordo
Legate- Wolf!
Lommy- Glorfindel!
Blind- Ordo
Sally- Ordo
Boro- Cobbler!
Mith- Ordo
Ang- Ordo
Fea- Ordo
Phantom- Ordo

I've never played with these three, so I'm having difficulty reading them, but we know that one is a Wolf, one is a Cobbler, and the remaining is Luthien.
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nessa

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, if you're making Nerwen Beren then I kind of obviously have to be Luthien, don't I? Which means you're wrong in at least one regard.

I love puncturing phantom's stuff. :D

[the phantom]

Shasta- but it's a trick! Morgoth knew we'd assume you and Nerwen were paired, so he changed it up! He's a tricky fellow.

And that's an excellent idea, Glirdan, but it wasn't what I had planned. Here's what I'm thinking-

Early on I'm going to keep my cards close, and then on Day 2 I will charge forth with great energy and force and accurately accuse all our evil-doers! To silence me they will attempt to slay me that night, but Lommy despite her dislike for me will valiantly rescue me from them! Then on Day 3 the baddies will go all out to try and get me lynched, and unfortunately several of you innocents will be swayed, and I will descend into the Dead Thread in great wrath. Once there I will continue making the same case day after day in post after post, which will make everyone hate me a bit, but that will be nothing compared to the way people feel at the end when I am proven correct and act absolutely insufferable about it.

[the phantom]

And now, I will predict what all the old guard players are thinking as they start reading at the beginning of the thread...

"How delightful! Lots of old faces back for this one! Mith and Ang even, what a treat! And Phantom, well- I never agreed with his style, but I seem to remember him being generally fun."
*reads*
"Well crap, I completely forgot how much I hate playing with Phantom. Yeesh, shut up already."

Fear not, for you shall receive your wish soon enough! Tonight is not a late one for me. Places to be soon after the sun rises.

[Glirdan]

On second thought, let's lynch him now and be done with it....I dn't think I can take his jabbering for an entire game :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

Lottie- you should vote me for Rep, right away! :p

++Sir Pudding for Rep

[the phantom]

But killing me won't stop my jabbering, Glirdy. It'll just put me in the Dead Thread. And if I know you, you'll be there no later than Day 2. :D

(Yes! Rep vote already!)

[the phantom]

Well.... I was expecting more of an opening flurry than this. How sad. Give me more to read tomorrow please. :)

*waves*

Nighty-night.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Sir Pudding for Rep

-head explodes-

Oh well, off to Mandos for me.

[Loslote]

-head explodes-

Oh well, off to Mandos for me.

++Shasta for Rep, too

Better? :Merisu:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As better as one can be with an exploded head, I suppose.

[Loslote]

As better as one can be with an exploded head, I suppose.

Ahh, who needs a head, anyway? Heads are boring. The French figured that out long ago; just look at all those rich people who got rid of theirs! You're better off without it. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Ahh, who needs a head, anyway? Heads are boring. The French figured that out long ago; just look at all those rich people who got rid of theirs! You're better off without it. :p

Hey, didn't the rich people have something to do with cake, too?

[Loslote]

Hey, didn't the rich people have something to do with cake, too?

They sure did. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNjcuZ-LiSY)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I should know better than to banter with the Mistress of Youtube. :p

[Loslote]

Now, now, that title properly belongs to our dearest Cup Cake. I merely follow in her footsteps like a devoted puppy or something. :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Now, now, that title properly belongs to our dearest Cup Cake. I merely follow in her footsteps like a devoted puppy or something. :p

Oh dear, she's going to have my head now, isn't she? I'm frightened. :p

[Mithalwen]

Bleary eyed and going back to sleep for a bit if I can. Non obvious nicknames seem cobblerish at stupid-o'clock. So that is Loslote under the gun. Time difference? Gah noone should be that perky ever... Glad to have me back? You won't be.... :cool:

[Loslote]

Oh dear, she's going to have my head now, isn't she? I'm frightened. :p

Why would you be? If you've already lost your head, there's no reason to worry that she'll steal it from you. She has it, I have it, either way you don't. :D

Bleary eyed and going back to sleep for a bit if I can. Non obvious nicknames seem cobblerish at stupid-o'clock. So that is Loslote under the gun. Time difference? Gah noone should be that perky ever... Glad to have me back? You won't be....

So if I doused you in water to wake you up, would you vote me? :Merisu:

[Nerwen]

Okay, so, here's what we know thus far....

Shasta- Seer!
Nogrod- Hunter!
Aganzir- Ordo
Glirdan- Cobbler!
Green- Ordo
Nerwen- Beren!
Lottie- Wolf!
Wilwa- Ordo
Legate- Wolf!
Lommy- Glorfindel!
Blind- Ordo
Sally- Ordo
Boro- Cobbler!
Mith- Ordo
Ang- Ordo
Fea- Ordo
Phantom- Ordo

I've never played with these three, so I'm having difficulty reading them, but we know that one is a Wolf, one is a Cobbler, and the remaining is Luthien.
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nessa
Not a bad start, tp, but I don't think you've considered all the ramifications. For instance, even if the Marrer kept me from my innermost heart, I should of course have refused to be paired with L. Ron or Nessa after they bloodily murdered me on Day One last time. :mad:

EDIT:X'd with some Miths and Lotties.

[Nerwen]

Now, now, that title properly belongs to our dearest Cup Cake. I merely follow in her footsteps like a devoted puppy or something.
Now this is clearly a confession.:smokin:

[Loslote]

Not a bad start, tp, but I don't think you've considered all the ramifications. For instance, even if the Marrer kept me from my innermost heart, I should of course have refused to be paired with L. Ron or Nessa after they bloodily murdered me on Day One last time. :mad:

EDIT:X'd with some Miths and Lotties.

So you're admitting that Mänwe is the other Lover?

Edit: xed with Berwen

[Loslote]

Now this is clearly a confession.:smokin:

Ahh, attempting to defract attention, are you? :p

[Nerwen]

So you're admitting that Mänwe is the other Lover?
Nooooo! What have I done? Forgive me, darling Mänluthien, I was too overcome with sorrow over poor Dobbin to think clearly.:(

Ahh, attempting to defract attention, are you? :p
I'm not sure. What does that involve, exactly?:confused:

[Loslote]

Nooooo! What have I done? Forgive me, darling Mänluthien, I was too overcome with sorrow over poor Dobbin to think clearly.:(


I'm not sure. What does that involve, exactly?:confused:

According to Wikipedia, diffraction "refers to various phenomena which occur when a wave encounters an obstacle". Thus, clearly, your post is the 'various phenomena', you are the 'wave', and my realizing that Mänwe was Luthien was the 'obstacle'.

Or, in simple terms, I dunno. :p

[Anguirel]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,740680,00.html

"The horses were panicky". Well quite. Ai ai.

Yet perhaps horses will return, yet, to our rescue. An anthem sung of old by Muir of Himring hints at something of the kind... (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-horses/)

The time is yet early and I wish attend to my steed's safe burial for some while yet, so I shall hold my tongue for a time. I shall leave behind only the observation that so much frippery and discussion of the Lovers - who are on our side - is at best noise that hampers our clear thinking, at worst, sabotage...

[Mithalwen]

Burial? I was thinking more of sausages..... and I think I shall pass on the cold water thanks all the same Loslote.. well I'll pop bakc in a bit...

[Nogrod]

Enter the stiff upper lip Finns to complain about there having been enough nonsense... :rolleyes:

First of all, this is going to be a bloody mess as the roles will not be revealed in death. We will actually have only two kinds of partial information for certain.

1) those killed at Night were "non-wolves" (and if the wolves decide to kill only the quiet, under-radar players at Nights, we gain little or no actual info from that).
2) those who come back from death are either a lover or the ranger aka. a goodie (and we'll lose those pretty soon anyway).

Which brings us an interesting new facet to the game. We thirst and hunger for information that is reliable. And the only way to get something resembling reliable info is that which the seer can give to a lover or the ranger in Mandos - but that in turn means that the seer must die before lovers or ranger (which latter should really try to cling on to life only to die relatively late in the game). And that means also, that getting the lovers and the ranger dead will be the first priority of the wolves: if they die early their return will not help us that much (and a double-protection is not such a mighty weapon in a big village than later) as the living then lose their only shot at any tangible information.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or how to play, but I do encourage the seer to consider what I have said (in case s/he hasn't done that yet).

Also, following Ang's suspicion, speculating about the lovers - even if it has been merely joking thus far - is not something we should keep on doing. Any hint the wolves get from that kind of discussion that leads them to try it out correctly means we lose two innocents, and especially early on, we lose a chance of learning something later.

[Boromir88]

Okay, so, here's what we know thus far....

Shasta- Seer!
Nogrod- Hunter!
Aganzir- Ordo
Glirdan- Cobbler!
Green- Ordo
Nerwen- Beren!
Lottie- Wolf!
Wilwa- Ordo
Legate- Wolf!
Lommy- Glorfindel!
Blind- Ordo
Sally- Ordo
Boro- Cobbler!
Mith- Ordo
Ang- Ordo
Fea- Ordo
Phantom- Ordo

I've never played with these three, so I'm having difficulty reading them, but we know that one is a Wolf, one is a Cobbler, and the remaining is Luthien.
elronds_daughter
Mänwe
Nessa

Shall we treat this as your pre-season picks? So you can change your mind about these picks at any time you wish and be able claim you were right. Or if you change your mind and happen to be wrong, you can always go back to your pre-season picks and claim "SEE! I told you! I had them right from the very beginning!" :rolleyes:

Edit: crossed with Nog

[Nerwen]

First of all, this is going to be a bloody mess as the roles will not be revealed in death. We will actually have only two kinds of partial information for certain.

1) those killed at Night were "non-wolves" (and if the wolves decide to kill only the quiet, under-radar players at Nights, we gain little or no actual info from that).
2) those who come back from death are either a lover or the ranger aka. a goodie (and we'll lose those pretty soon anyway).
3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.
4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.:p

And the only way to get something resembling reliable info is that which the seer can give to a lover or the ranger in Mandos - but that in turn means that the seer must die before lovers or ranger

What about this?
Every Night (beginning when there are at least 3 dead), the dead people vote for one among themselves . At the end of the vote it will be revealed whether the person counts for the wolves or the innocent. (In other words, they will be told whether a fellow dead person is a wolf or not.)

[Nogrod]

Oops... I have totally missed that last one. Has it been added at some point or have I just managed to ignore it? Although the ruling only tells the identity of a wolf among the dead - so it looks like cobblers will be told to be "innocents" and can thus still mess the information there.

[Mänwe]

Nooooo! What have I done? Forgive me, darling Mänluthien, I was too overcome with sorrow over poor Dobbin to think clearly.:(

Oh shush dearest, all is always forgiven, now come back to the bedroll.

[Boromir88]

4) If anyone who looks at all cobblerish gets killed on Night One, we should definitely lynch Boro.:p


Hey, I've gotten a lot better at that, as I managed not to kill Pitch last game. Granted, he found a way to inform us that he was the cobbler, but still, I think I got better! :p

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

[Aganzir]

Grr you are posting too much to my time-limited liking!
(Okay I just saw there were already two pages when I logged in and was expecting lengthy rules discussions etc. Scratch my complaint.)

Nog basically said everything I had in mind.

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.
And if he had continued the banter, you'd say "it's entirely unlike Nog to not post anything serious!"?

I have to go now, will be back later.

[Anguirel]

I have a sense that many of us are holding our breath. I certainly have been.

Here in no particular order are some observations and reactions -

This is a good set up for people with dodgy reputations, like, say, the phantom and, it must be said, me. Even if we are killed preemptively because we aren't trusted, we will have an active role to play; one of the reasons I was won over to this renaissance...

Nogrod, as you probably remember I'm always uncomfortable with the term nonsense; although admittedly, as we seem to agree, there has been chatter, I object to it not because it's irrelevant but because it's relevant and quite dangerous, being about Lovers etc.

The kind of nonsense I like - roles, hallo, yeargh, I be the village blacksmith etc - is not actually very much in evidence because we haven't picked roles. That said, I'm glad to find myself a First-Age Elf. I'm a follower of the House of Feanor. Obviously. I was carrying a message from Maedhros to Fingon and got mixed up in this ill-conceived patrol...

...still, fine, Nogrod, I accept that you are of the "stiff-lipped House of Finnwe", and prefer strategy on the whole to egregious colour. As a result Boromir's suspicion of you as a spinner seems, for the present, a bit too easy and a bit too tempting. Not that I suspect Boromir that much yet.

I'm not really of the school of thought that believes in giving such specific advice as you do to the Gifteds, though. Best pretend they don't exist, let them do their stuff cloak and daggered, ideally don't mention them until eight people are claiming to be the Seer and all that jazz.

A minor contribution to the interpretation of the Byzantine rules - it sounds to me like the spirits in Mandos do get told about cobblers; as in, they get told whether the ones they vote for are Elf or Wolf-aligned. But I agree it isn't very clear. I'd appreciate mod-Valar elucidation, but maybe that's a matter for the Dead Thread, not the Arda radar (ouch).

What happens if we kill all the wolves and there are still cobblers? (I feel cobbler is hardly the appropriate term for an Elven former cavalryman under minor possession!) We win, but we need an exorcist?

Oh, suspicions? Mith. How could you be so callous about my noble steed...sausages, for shame...

Real suspicions? I still don't feel any would be that rational. It's a striking fact, though, that there are an unusual quantity of evil voices here. Six out of twenty is almost one in three...every third contributor, alternately fanged and shod? Ok, Glirdan, Boromir and one other are wolves and Nerwen is a cobbler... ((by the way, this is a joke. It's also probably an inaccurate one. I really can't count.))

[Macalaure]

A minor contribution to the interpretation of the Byzantine rules - it sounds to me like the spirits in Mandos do get told about cobblers; as in, they get told whether the ones they vote for are Elf or Wolf-aligned. But I agree it isn't very clear. I'd appreciate mod-Valar elucidation, but maybe that's a matter for the Dead Thread, not the Arda radar (ouch).

The dead cannot see cobblers. Wolf or non-Wolf is all they'll be able to tell.

[Anguirel]

Ah, the strains of Maglor's harp reveal my mistake; thanks, chum

If anyone else happens to be around I'd appreciate a chat. I might not be around so much latter today (in particular, it'll be a miracle if I'm in at the deadline)

[Mithalwen]

Oh Ang dear, don't take on ..no one could be fonder of living horses but I have a practical streak.. besides the traditional fate of a good hunter is to go to the dogs... anyway I am around and taking note.

[Anguirel]

Forgiven for now, Mith; what d'ya think of this then:

"Nog basically said everything I had in mind." - Aganzir

I can't remember if this is a traditional alliance, but right now I don't like it; or rather, I dislike it more expressly than anything else so far. I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

It's just struck me, too, that presumably our horses will be in Mandos (whither I somehow expect to be expedited pretty quickly) - that's some comfort!

[Mithalwen]

:rolleyes:I wasn't keen on Nogrod appropriating the stiff upper lip from Albion.. the "we ..Finns" was a bit chummy. Obviously they can't all be wolves. And Aganzir is more able than most to take care of herself if I recall.

Fairly standard Nogrod to bring a dose of Nordic misery and then not practise what he preaches "I'm not going to tell anyone how to play but..." Wonder if he still plays voting chicken with the deadline... :rolleyes:

Ang sweetest, the horses may be in Mandos though what they have to atone for I know not, perchance they graze already the pasture of Yavanna. However if they are what ever was last night's supper is there too and that might be socially more sticky. Especially if for the wolves since their supper (Rikae and Mac are surely there). No doubt I will now get my wrist slapped for frivolity.


I need to completemy spreadsheet (and to nip out for a bit anon) but I don't think I have any major suspicions as yet given that it is early doors and early posters have to say something. I don't like random lists particularly though ...too good a cover for mentionitis.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am here and looking at it, surprisingly enough, I haven't missed much, it seems. Like, one page, yes, but basically full of nothing. That's actually rather unusual. Normally there is a bit more of "something" among the "nothing" by this time. Either that, or there is less of the "nothing".

In any case, as for what Nog had said, he is of course right. Last game, I have said something which, in my opinion, should be upheld every game, if possible. I said something like that I am fine with everybody posting in-character or (like in this case) just banter for a while, but not for more than one or two post per each person (and that said, people actually DID it!). This time, I believe many of the people have exceeded it by a lot already. Like I said, no problem with having fun for a while, but if everybody keeps doing it for the whole game, we don't get anywhere. So I suggest to everyone: after second post at most, scratch it and start talking about something relevant (or at least, put SOMETHING relevant into your post).

A few general comments concerning the rules - as it's been said, there will be a lot more uncertainity in this game. I sort of take it for granted that the Gifteds will try to announce their roles to us before they die (in case they didn't manage to do it beforehand), so that it prevents unnecessary confusion. The Wolves might lie, of course, and the Cobblers will lie no doubt, but at least we will be sure that a person who dies after saying "I am the Seer/Ranger/Hunter" is not an Ordo, or vice versa (that's the most important part, I believe): like, we will know that an Ordo who dies is either an Ordo or a Wolf or Cobbler, but not a Gifted. Might give at least a bit more of guidance.

Likewise, voting - voting especially is now going to be a BIG problem, because it will take quite a lot of time until we can start making these pretty lists with even the very basic information like "on Day 2 this and this person voted for a known innocent". However, that does not mean we should refrain from making such lists, and comparing them with different options. (A pity Mac himself is not playing, I am sure he will enjoy it, as that's basically trying the same equation with different value set for unknown x.)

General comments on people... not much to comment on this far, apart from a few "basic" people. Phantom acts like Phantom, whatever he is, and Lottie acts weird to the point of looking like a Cobbler. Though I wonder if a Cobbler in this game wouldn't be a bit more reserved, given that they can stir a lot of confusion simply by existing and being unknown. At least at start. Lottie seems like just coming and making a mess from the beginning, absolutely uncoordinately. There are several people who haven't been playing for some time, which is nice, but it will probably take a bit more time to find out how/if their style has changed.

Shall we treat this as your pre-season picks? So you can change your mind about these picks at any time you wish and be able claim you were right. Or if you change your mind and happen to be wrong, you can always go back to your pre-season picks and claim "SEE! I told you! I had them right from the very beginning!" :rolleyes:
I am not sure, like, was that a serious accusation?

"Nog basically said everything I had in mind." - Aganzir

I can't remember if this is a traditional alliance, but right now I don't like it; or rather, I dislike it more expressly than anything else so far. I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...

I don't see any problem with that, it can be simply a statement of fact. If somebody basically says everything you had in mind, well, you can just forward people to that (especially if it's just two posts ago) instead of repeating it. What else would you do, repeat it again? So no, I don't see anything special about that.

Okay, so that's it for now... speaking of that: I am sort of apologising in advance, I am afraid that I won't be as active in this game as I would like to due to RL obligations (I'm just in the middle of my exam term), but I will certainly post at least a couple of times per Day. So that's just to know... but well, a brain needs to relax. (Relax? Hm...)

Will check back later...

[Mithalwen]

Oh my only other observation just now is that while we have gifted with some interesting powers there is nearly a third of the village is up to no good and running very little risk in the short term given that even if we get a wolf straight off we won't know for a while. There are a lot of agendas going on here and I wouldn't see quietness as sinister perse in the first instance. But I hope there will be a bit more action before I vote... really don't want to try to be awake at 3 am ..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[the phantom]

So... the serious talk is under way

I'm looking forward to lunch, where I can read closely and respond for real.

I declare that the day has officially started!

[satansaloser2005]

Ai, ai, my horse has been slain! We passed through many battles together! She deserved a more noble death than this mauling! A curse upon Morgoth for his evil works!

Oh... and that's too bad about Mac and Rikae too. They seemed like okay people, but maybe we should've picked different guards. Those two had a habit of shirking their duties in favor of.... other things.

What sort of other things? I'm so innocent and don't understand your meaning! :Merisu:

Also, clearly Maedhros did it. First little girls, now horses. What will he do next?!


Now, now, that title properly belongs to our dearest Cup Cake. I merely follow in her footsteps like a devoted puppy or something.

Good girl. ^_^


Oh dear, she's going to have my head now, isn't she? I'm frightened.

My exact thought when I read these posts? How. Very. Dare. You.


Ahh, attempting to defract attention, are you?

There's a Battlestar Galactica reference in there somewhere. Or a trig problem. :/



So far I don't think Lottie is causing the good kind of chaos. Her interaction with Shasta seems a bit random to me, even for so early. Might I suggest Wolf Pack PopSicles? It's too early to tell though, so I'll have to look again later. I barely had time to skim, so alas I wasn't able to look at much. :(


I'm also sorry to say that this is probably the last you'll see of me toDay. I'm nowhere near prepared to vote, so I'll abstain for the Day, unless I'm somehow able to get on later in the evening (which doesn't look likely).

Please kill Phantom while I'm away. He's such a terribly bothersome man. < (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0808185/)3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsR8CSZmkqY)

[Boromir88]

Nog basically said everything I had in mind.


And if he had continued the banter, you'd say "it's entirely unlike Nog to not post anything serious!"?


Probably would. However, the truth of the matter is he didn't, so it doesn't matter what I would have said in response to a hypothetical situation that did not occur. What did happen is he entered with a generic bleak "oh we look doomed we won't know roles at death." When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

In some ways this situation is a curse for the wolves. Whenever you have roles revealed at death, the wolves have the night to concoct whatever story they want, because everyone now knows the person's role. And the wolves can spin the lynch however they want. "How did that bandwagon happen against Glirdan yesterday! There must be a wolf in that evil wagon!" (when really it's just a false lead because as everyone would now know Glirdan's role) However, not getting the role at the person's death, means the wolves can't manipulate any information from the lynch, because to the non-wolves there is no info for the wolves to manipulate.

More information isn't necessarily better information. Sometimes it is, other times it just means there's more information for the wolves to manipulate in whatever way suits their purposes.

I didn't buy the bleak "we won't know the roles! We're in trouble!" business last game when the roles weren't revealed at death. And seeing how well the village did in that prior game, I'm certainly not buying it now.

As for the rest of Nog's post it's just basic on what we do learn from the deaths and then instructions to the gifteds (which of course Nog has to add they aren't obliged to follow). This caused, because of current events, what I will now call my twitter reaction. If there was a twitter-account in these parts of the world world, and if I cared to have one, I would tweet "Nog's on my radar that first post looks evil."


I am not sure, like, was that a serious accusation?

Nah, sports joke. "Experts" make pre-season choices, but as the season goes on they change all their selections and winners, to try and boast their expertise. However, if they're wrong, they can always go back to their pre-season picks, because at one point in time they probably had the right choice, to where they can claim SEE I WAS RIGHT THIS WHOLE TIME! It's a nifty trick by sports analysts to try and prove they are experts, when really they don't know anything more than any other John Doe.

A underhanded jab at tp's ego, but not a serious accusation. My opinion of tp is still a work in process, to be determined at a later time.

Edit: crossed with Ms sally.

[Anguirel]

Yup, so I had a longish walk today as part of my general errantry, and it was vaguely thought provoking.

Trivial stuff first: Am I right in remembering Aganzir is of the stiff-lipped house of Finnwe too, which I had forgotten? That renders my elder brother metaphor rather literally silly and wrong, sorry about that. All in all I actually have little to go on here

Also, I can explain Mith's subversive question about the whereabouts of Macalaure and Rikae after their bodily deaths; surely they have clung to Middle-earth as Houseless Coavalta, covertly twisting events to their will...

Ahem, strategy, strategy.

Just two things about this Second Life situation we ought to consider.

1) The ability of the dead to detect wolves is triggered after three deaths (surely not counting the coavalta co-mods). In the normal way of things, there will only be two by tomorrow. Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

[Anguirel]

Oh, and

"Like I said, no problem with having fun for a while, but if everybody keeps doing it for the whole game, we don't get anywhere." - Legate

Sheer gold

[Aganzir]

I don't see it as wolf no. 1 shoring up wolf no. 2; but it does look a bit like finding a nice convenient protective elder brother...
Hahaha. That's cute. (Yes, I'm of the House of Finnwë.)

Legate talks about things in more length than seems necessary. Then again, he's always like that.

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.
I don't think he was being that bleak. I haven't played in a game like this before and my first thought was it's going to be a bloody mess. It makes more sense now that you explained why Nog's post rubbed you off, though (earlier it looked much more like an easy accusation).

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?
It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

[Mithalwen]

People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? Pfft

Just becasue some of us intend to enjoy the ride, it doesn't mean we aren't going somewhere:smokin:

[Thinlómien]

Well I said this game is going to confuse me and that's what it's doing no doubt. That said, I'm at least happy Nog took up the "stiff upper lip house of Finnwë" stuff so I don't need to do that.

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. ;) I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...

And that means also, that getting the lovers and the ranger dead will be the first priority of the wolves: if they die early their return will not help us that much (and a double-protection is not such a mighty weapon in a big village than later) as the living then lose their only shot at any tangible information.*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.Depends how nice our mods are. If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering". :rolleyes:

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference.

no one could be fonder of living horses but I have a practical streak.I first read this as "but I have a practical steak" and I was like, nice confession mate.

Legate gives me headache. Might just be his style. :p But really! See how long a novel he writes just to state a few obvious thoughts. I think my head is sort of over-sensitive to headache in big games with new rules, though.

Also, clearly Maedhros did it. First little girls, now horses. What will he do next?!Now, now! You were still backing him up in the latest round of hurt and heal - what happened? Grew some fur, eh?

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.Quite optimistic, given that the regular scenario is that the wolves spot the seer early on and the ranger lives until the end game, which is kind of unlike what we want this time. In this game, we really got to use our wits (even) more than usual. A random vote from anyone toDay and you have a host of hostile penguins at your door. Just warning.

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.I pity your packmates! Anyway, interesting thoughts. Shows I haven't given the dead enough thought, for one.


edit: xed with Agan and Mith

[Anguirel]

It won't be any help. They vote on the role reveals at night, anyway. If we lynch just one person today, they can start on night 3. If we do a double lynch, they still start on night 3, only there's one unknown more. We'd have to do a triple lynch today and it isn't worth it. Besides we won't get any information before one of the specials die, anyway. I think this plan smells of cobblery.

And because dead and living wolves can't communicate, I see no reason they should want one of them in Mandos. As if the dead were going to trust one another anyway.

Well, I'm glad you scrutinised my first suggestion better than I had done (it is indeed pretty useless), but I'm afraid it was made in good faith. I've never been a cobbler (at least, not officially), and don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting

I do feel you dismiss my second point too quickly though. A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage (as Gifteds who recognise each other have managed to do in the past). Cobblers are all very well, but they don't really know who they're helping; a wolf, especially if they were sacrificed in such a way that they looked very convincing, could do much more informed damage.

Then again, my kinsmen have probably been the most prone to wolf-hanging of all wolves, so perhaps I'm judging a less pathologically devious pack by my own standard...

I feel remarkably uncommitted in terms of real suspicion, and indeed sense that this feeling is general. I see I'm not alone in quite wanting to lynch Legate to make things a bit less hardline, but kicking him upstairs into Mandos won't do much good in that direction anyway.

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

[Thinlómien]

Shasta - no alarm bells... yet.
Nogrod - seems ok.
Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?
Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.
A Little Green - is making me and our friends deep fried bananas right now so I can forgive her for not posting.
elronds_daughter - didn't post yet, did she?
Mänwe - only banter this far. Cobbler?
Nerwen - kind of disturbing combination of banter and sharp understanding of facts. Feel like saying cobbler again, but I guess I should come up with something more original to make my suspicion feeling concrete. Wolf?
Loslote - I said already I don't like the fangirlism.
Wilwa - is absent.
Legate - confusing. Cannot judge him yet (if ever). *shudders*
Nessa - absent as well.
Blind Guardian - the only thing I recall from her regarding this game is that she was happy the dead can talk. Should we do her a favour and make her the first one? ;)
satansaloser2005 - fishy as a fish.
the phantom - like I said, annoys me.
Boromir88 - I refrain from judging him in order not to do it wrong this time. Watching.
Mithalwen - seems innocent this far, I think.
Anguirel - still trying to figure out what he's up to.
Fea - not here.

Hmmm. Normally I don't suspect anyone, this time I suspect almost everyone. Not sure if it's any improvement. Shall be away for now, coming back later.


edit: xed with Ang

[Mithalwen]

I'm quite keen on finding out about the inside of Mandos, in fact; I'm struggling with the urge to volunteer myself for the 'great adventure'...never before have I felt so Elven. Voting for myself would be precisely the opposite of rationality (which I find appealing), while avoiding the exact Nilpaurion cliche because of our unique plight. But I will, at the moment, resist. I wouldn't want any of you to think I was a cobbler, or even a coward.

Oh resist a while.. don't want to be the first to arrive at a party...

[Aganzir]

Shasta, Lottie, phantom, Glirdan, Nerwen, Ang, Mith
These people filled page 1 with banter (I'm the most okay with Mith because she was posting at stupid-o'clock and Ang because he only posted once). Statistically, there are two baddies in this group. I usually loathe statistics, but I don't like the fact that it took 36 posts to get to anything serious.

GUILTY
Anguirel. Double lynch plan which looked reasonable at first glance but doesn't help us at all. His tone is more innocent than his words, though.
phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).
Lottie. Doesn't sit quite right with me. Plus she bantered for four hours.
Boro. I don't really like his casting suspicion on the first person to post some substance. He explained it better later, but it still seems too easy.
Shasta. "Should know better than to banter with the Mistress of Youtube" but does it anyway.

INNOCENT
Nerwen. Amuses me. I'm okay with her for now.
Lommy. I like her plan of lynching phantom. I also like her. I'm not sure I've ever played against Wommy yet, but she always seems to give me innocent vibes (except the times we argue :p).
sally. Guess what? I think she looks good. (I'm about as surprised about this as about trusting Mac in last game.) And I like her PopSicles point.
Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.

EITHER
Legate. Too verbose to my liking but could go either way. I have him down as a cobbler till he says his points with fewer words. :p
Nogrod. Raised good points which tells us nothing whatsoever about his role. He actually kind of creeps me out... but I don't know.
Glirdan. Very little to go on, but I like him the most in the chatty group.
Mänwe

WHERE?
Fea
BG
Nessa
wilwa
ed
Green (answer: in my kitchen, just made caramelized bananas. This keeps her from receiving my vote today.)

[the phantom]

Okay, I'm here! Time to actually get a handle on the rules and roles I'd say.

I have spent a grand total of... oh... five minutes considering tactics and such. I planned to dedicate a good deal of time to it during the first Night, but I was run ragged from dawn until dusk. So, I'm going to say some things and please tell me if my assumptions are missing a key point of this match.

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.

And now to read the posts I've missed....

[the phantom]

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before.
Love you too, dear. :p

And quite honestly, from a tactical perspective I am attempting to think through whether or not an Ordo should even bother fighting any sort of tide that comes his direction. If one is not gifted, should one fight at all, considering there are Lovers and Glorfindel to protect? But it is so very counter to my nature, and I greatly prefer to exit via Wolf-kill. Bleh.

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

[Aganzir]

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.
Actually I disagree. If they manage to kill both Glorfindel and a lover before the seer, there's no one to bring back a word from Mandos.

If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.
Or if the hunter isn't around at the deadline and can't reveal...

don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting
It's not the best role for people with an ego... but it's possible. ;)

A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage
They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.

Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?
Guess what I almost just did? Quoted your post (about trying to find the cobblers) and said the phrasing looked fishy. Then I was like "oh my god I can't start this." :p

I don't like how many people still haven't posted. I might vote for one of them just out of principle, or one of my Guilties (preferably Lottie or phantom).

[Aganzir]

it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted
As I see it there's nothing that stops the living lover from revealing once her significant other dies. We'll know it soon enough anyway if she isn't telling the truth, and that way the village has a known innocent at least for a day.

By the way Rikae what happens if a lover is lynched and the wolves kill the other? Does the first to die still come back?

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.
Definitely not. The seer is more useful as long as she's alive because the dead have a rough way of telling whether someone is innocent but the living don't.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?
The wolves are more likely to kill him for good once he comes back from Mandos and then we don't have a ranger. If we want to send a messenger to Mandos, it'd make more sense to kill a lover... except then we're two players down. Hmm.

Will be back later.

[Rikae]

One lover needs to be alive to bring the other back, so if the wolves manage to kill the second lover while the first is dead, both stay dead.

[the phantom]

(Thinking out loud here....)

Are all the votes and results completely public on the Dead-Thread? In other words, we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

Because private voting is HUGELY different. If everything is public, then it is my opinion that the good side will take swift and total control of the Dead activities. They can coordinate their vote with the Seer dreams, making certain never to repeat anyone, meaning that essentially this village starting tomorrow will have TWO Seer dreams in every single cycle, and that there is no possible way for the Wolves to stop those dreams, and so long as Glorfindel or the Lovers survive for a bit the Living will have an absolute ton of information to work with.

Not to mention that the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living, and if the voting weight is repeated on the same person, that will be a sign that the dream from the previous night was a Wolf (or died), which also could help.

Also, plans could be made on the Dead Thread and passed up to the Living, such as, "Tell them that so-and-so is getting dreamed tonight when I dream, and if that person doesn't receive the extra vote the following day then they must be a Wolf." Are you following me with this, or am I completely off base and forgetting something obvious?

[the phantom]

Seriously, you folks who've done a lot of imagining of situations, tell me if my above post is not possible, because as I'm thinking about this thing it's sort of looking obvious that the Seer should purposefully die, as it would in fact NOT mean the end of communication between him and the Living, particularly if we can agree to the pattern of voting I proposed in which every day the village knows to trust anyone that the Dead handed an extra vote to.

The largest problem I can see is a Seer whose identity is not believed for whatever reason. That could be disaster, but I'm thinking given the players in this game I wouldn't imagine an extensive Seer-bluff over a great period of time could succeed.

Understand also that I'm not at this time proposing this!! All I wish to know now is if my limited time for thinking has caused me to misjudge the situation. IF it is determined that my thoughts are correct, then we can move on to actual discussion of options.

(Basically, I don't want anyone claiming I'm purposefully pushing something harmful in willful ignorance of some key point. I'd be an idiot to assume that said key point won't be brought to light given the makeup of this village.)

Anyway, my time is up for now. I'll be back as soon as my trip home is ended.

[Mithalwen]

[Mith. Nothing alarming so far, but I know how good a wolf she is. Apart from that, she's entertaining.


How good? Rubbish as any fule kno.... Aim to entertain... may work on being alarming..and I suppose I shall have to take a more serious look at the more serious posts before it gets much later...

[Aganzir]

Okay I'm back because the plans for tonight changed.

Phantom are you keeping in mind that the seer can only dream of dead players after her death? And if she dies without revealing, there's no way the living can tell it was her. What if a dead wolf/cobbler fake reveals as the seer?

[Thinlómien]

Gah. It's too late for messing my head more with possible case scenarios and stuff like that. Sorry for not being around so much - but today happened to be a busy day and toMorrow I'll actually be quite quiet too but then I should have more to say as I will have thought about things more.

++Mänwë

He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all. Not that this is much to go on with! Good night.


edit: xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

How good?
You were a brilliant alpha in my first ever game as a wolf! (Even though you revealed out of boredom. :p)

[Nogrod]

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

We need some information at some point of the game, preferably later. And we know how to get it: our gifted goodies need to sacrifice themselves - and they all come with a prize.

Talking of those who seem to understand our situation, Aganzir and the phantom are okay with me: they seem to make sense and have a hang of our situation (even if I don't agree with their every statement). A cobbler or a wolf can make sense too, but I'm quite happy with them thus far. We need more clearheaded people like them around, especially in this game.

Also Lommy seems to make sense even if she is incorrect in thinking the seer is the prime target. As I said earlier, the lovers and the ranger are, because getting rid of them makes empty any hope of getting any information over the "killed by Night so therefore not a wolf" -cases.

Legate seems his verbiose-self which actually indicates nothing of his role.

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...


People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? PfftIsn't that a bit like overdoing something here? And actually what I meant (and I guess some others did) was not that being or having fun is bad. Playing a game that was not fun would be miserable. But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*


EDIT: X'd with a bunch of posts.
EDIT2: Added a correction in CAPITAL LETTERS...

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Aaand, that's all I've got. It's better than math for a first post though, huh? We all know where that went :Merisu: Not to mention the dead thread would probably break my calculator.

[Mithalwen]

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing .... rather like when surgeons call an operation a technical success :S Or when my dear dad was told that his new boss was "outstanding in his field" and answered that the field was presumably one where useless gits were irritating as well as incompetent. Heigh ho..

[Mithalwen]

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

.

Don't be silly, the wolves know not to kill each other! And even if they help lynch a cobbler it isn't a disaster. It is a perfectly valid tactic for a cobbler to take a bullet for the pack..especially if they can continue to cobble in Mandos without risk of being denounced. When there are so few knowns how much easier for a cobbler to pose as a misguided innocent. And there are three of them.

At the moment the wolves know something about 2 others. On the side of the angels there are also three people who know something but only about one other person each. Don't underestimate the situation.

[Nogrod]

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...Okay. I must have clicked something very wrong while typing as there clearly are like many sentences missing from here.

What I was trying to say about Ang and Boro is the following:

Ang probably wouldn't have made the suggestions on double-lynches or speculations about wolves willing to send one of them to Mandos if he was a wolf. Too attention-grabbing and wrong.

Boro says he has a Twitter-impression on my posts, I have an Fb-impression on him. It's not enough for me to vote for him toDay, but I'll be watching.


Sorry.

(I hate using a laptop with no mouse as it tends to do all kinds of pickings of it's own...)

[Mithalwen]

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*
...

But it wasn't all the game was it? It was the first page of the first day when many were asleep or at work. If we all waited until there was something serious to say then we would never get started. I don't think it was all random chatting - Nerwen seemed to identify a confession from Loslote!. Later we may see significance in whom someone whose role we identify has name checked or not. Be able to discern whether someone's banter was the careless chat of a bored innocent or a cobbler's smokescreen. So I do think it is a bit early to get sanctimonious about playing style especially of those who made the effort to show up and get the ball rolling. As a wise man once said this isn't a professional werewolf league... chance remarks often give away more than a studious essay.

[the phantom]

Phantom are you keeping in mind that the seer can only dream of dead players after her death?
What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?

Well, so much for that then. If that's the case, then as usual the Wolves will kill the Seer on the very first Night if given the chance. BUT- what is different is that it should probably be much tougher to spot the Seer in the early going as there really isn't any need for him to leave clues, as he can always reveal after death so long as a Dead-Living transfer player is still alive to bring his dreams back. Should the Lovers and Glorfy be downed early, at that point I think the Seer would have little choice but to semi-out himself.

All right- off to work now! But I should be able to keep tabs a bit and post while at work. We'll see.

[Nogrod]

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.Like I said. Although as Rikae told us, there is a possibility that they both die before the one gets back - and the use of the knowledge about their identities isn't any advantage as they will both die then without any help from the wolves. The lovers help to us is that one of them goes and picks some info from Mandos and shares it here. Then they are gone.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.Like I said in #40, in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay. In Mandos the seer can only dream of already dead people, so we'd do fine if the seer would get there packed with at least a few dreams.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?
The ranger would be the most powerful visiting Mandos late in the game picking the maximum information and using her/his double-protections to a maximum effect in a small village.

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.The wolves need the lovers and the ranger like now. I think it depends on the wolves - and how this game starts on them - whether they think they should pick the seer or whether the seer is less dangerous in here (if the seer never dies, no one's going to learn anything from anyone for sure - and the cobblers & wolves can run amok here). The cobblers might actully be more dangerous in Mandos than in here, at least early on - here they know nothing but in Mandos they might have better chances of getting the picture.

On tp's latter suggestions I think they were mostly overtly optimistic (not taking into consideration some obvious problems or rule-limtations), or then I just didn't understand some of them.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about: the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the LivingSo if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.

[Aganzir]

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.
My hint was that if she knows something we don't, it's suspicious. After all, the wolves all know something we don't: who to kill.
Hmm... :p

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing ....
Mith you know that's not what I meant.

One lover needs to be alive to bring the other back, so if the wolves manage to kill the second lover while the first is dead, both stay dead.
So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.

What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?
Hmm what do you mean by this?
Too bad though, it would've been great if your plan had worked. Now we need to think of something else. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, so upon going through all people, I also made a list... but not sure if it is of much help in most cases. Most people have been either not saying much or not being around at all. I assume once I go to sleep, the Americans will come out of their hideouts, but well...

Shasta - not much of an info from the beginning banter-posts, so no idea
Nogrod - looks sort of like a classic Nogrod, for now, no special feelings of guiltiness nor innocence; I agree with him about Ang, though - of course unless he's saying it to support a fellow, then again, why would he do it already so soon in the game...
Aganzir - active, looks more like her innocent self (after the last game, I am becoming sort of more confident about trusting her... so hope it doesn't turn around!)
Glirdan - was he around at all?
A Little Green - ditto
elronds_daughter - not much info, is there..
Mänwe - basically popping in and not saying anything, but being well familiar with lynching him on Day 1s by my own hands, I am NOT going to do it toDay - there's been basically nothing he said, anyway
Nerwen - posted sort of in a typical Nerwen-y way, so I cannot say anything one way or the other
Loslote - like I said earlier, I'm getting very Cobblerish vibes from her. Though not sure if I want to vote her. Main reasons would be these: first, if she is a Cobbler, then I would really prefer to vote somebody who reeks more of Wolf. Lynching Cobblers in this game actually does not help much, quite the opposite, so here you go. And then, I am not sure when it was the last time when she ended up being voted for quite early, but I think it's been quite recently and that it comes pretty often. So I am sort of not wanting to do that lest I have really good reasons to. Which I don't, and see above.
Wilwa - no word from her
Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her. Anyway, I think there is actually something rather awkward about Lommy, her comments don't seem like that of her usual self. She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like. Still, wait to see what more comes out of her.
Nessa - her only post gives me a sort of "???" vibes, but nothing more than that. Again, too little info.
Blind Guardian - ?
satansaloser2005 - not much of an idea either
the phantom - his posts, after the initial nothing, actually suddenly started to be surprisingly substantial (which I would not have expected from him on Day 1) - and make me think fairly enough of him
Boromir88 - well of the "louder" players he is probably the only one who casts some shadow, in my opinion, his sudden "crusade against pessimism" and all that seems a bit like programmed to me, but maybe it just seems to me. But curious.
Mithalwen - given how much she is around, she had said very little. Sort of under the radar. I am watching her.
Anguirel - like I have said, not much experience with him; he seems active, but that of course can mean anything. Not probably voting him toDay, though - there are lots of other people who are not at least equally active. Active means that you can read something about him, so I might just as well go for somebody who is not as active.
Fea - not around, I think?

So then it comes down to, whom should I vote? One thing is, I can imagine the WWs now being more among the less talkative. Other thing is, that could be like voting randomly for one among several people, which I really dislike. I think this far I haven't ever voted randomly. So... yes, I will probably vote somebody of the quieter part, but who is at least a bit unsettling, or something. That could be for example Mith, though... bah. Well, okay, there will probably be thousands of other votes anyway. *scratches head* The biggest problem is anyway that we are not going to know... but what can we do. Patience, we must learn!

EDIT: x-ed with Mith, phantom, Nog and Agan

[A Little Green]

Hello bunnies. I'm here at last, though won't be for long, I need to be off to bed. A few comments.

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...
And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering".

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference. To tell you the truth, Lommy is creeping me out at the moment. Wanting to kill phantom and Lottie strikes me as awfully easy - also partly because I'm quite fine with both of them right now. Also, her idea of a Bobbler is pretty far-fetched, but I don't know if it's meant as fully serious or not. And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).Erm? What exactly are you talking about?

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.Wait.. The perspective of that last sentence is strange, considering that the topic I believe was innocents uniting in Mandos.

A wolf(g)angI'm willing to give Nog a pass for this one.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Legs

[Nogrod]

So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.I'm afraid the loads of different revelations will be one of our major headaches in this game. Remember, it may be we learn nothing from lynching or saving someone who reveal, whatever that person reveals.

Which actually brings me to a point of actually suggesting quite openly something to everyone as howe to play.

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.


EDIT: X'd with Leg & Green

[Aganzir]

in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay.
I disagree. The seer is more powerful in Mandos (she can check out those whose alignment isn't known yet, or non-wolves suspected of cobblery) but as long as she stays here and dreams of the living, it's more even.

A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.
And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about: So if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.
I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").

That post makes me think a lot worse of Nog.

[A Little Green]

Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her.Trying to earn cuteness points, or what? :D

Hmm. I seriously need some sleep soon, I'll vote in a while. My vote will go either for a submarine (though obviously not someone who hasn't been around) or Lommy, who I feel the worst about at the moment. I'm feeling more or less okay with Agan (gasp! I wonder how long it will take for me to change my mind on this one), Lottie (I didn't catch anything too cobblerish in her posts, looked more like overdone regular banter to me), and Phantom. Of the rest - most of them are making my head hurt. Sally is slightly fishy but I think I always call her that. Legate is wishy-washy but I know I always call him that. :rolleyes:

[Mithalwen]

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists... :rolleyes:

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...

her idea of a Bobbler
Cuute!!!

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..
Indeed, not sure if I approve of that either... but well, nothing more than that for now and I am simply looking forward to reading more from them in the future that will determine better decipher their intentions...

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.
Well, I second the fact that we have enough of confusion possible, but if we look at it purely rationally, apart from what you say, the situation you prefer works also so that people can determine that if somebody is not claiming to be a Gifted, then they are either Ordos, Cobblers or Wolves. Basically it only rules out one possible mistake, and it is, in fact, the most beneficial for the Wolves. This way, the WWs don't have to fear false reveals or such, and it is probably the last piece of puzzle they need (okay, they also need the Cobblers, but it is one more piece of puzzle). But if you make it a rule, then you basically clarify it for the Wolves by drawing a line: here are the Gifteds (and Cobblers) and here are the normal people (and Cobblers). No, I think it should not be a "rule" - but people should simply act reasonably.

Anyway, going to vote and sleep.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan, Greenie and Mith

[Aganzir]

She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like.
:------D
You have no idea how hard I laughed at that. :D

I like Legate.

And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.
I'm inclined to agree. It looked like she was over-emphasizing it.

Erm? What exactly are you talking about?
As an innocent I can just ignore him and wait for the wolves or the rest of the village to take care of him. As a wolf, I wouldn't have such a privilege. ;)

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me. On the other hand, there are things I disagree with her on (namely Lottie and sally).

[the phantom]

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages
I'm not entirely certain about that. For instance, if you have an inkling of who the Seer might possibly be and that person dies, you should go ahead and point out your theory (especially if you can discover some sort of coded message or whatnot, I'm not the only person who does that sort of thing, am I?) and then treat future Dead-votes as a vindication of someone, assuming that the Seer is able to properly convince the Dead upon arrival.

Not to mention that a Seer could very well reveal outright, in which case we'd know all of his dreams EXCEPT the one he has the night he is killed, which could be passed back up to the Living via the proposed method (whoever receives the Dead-bonus the next day was the person the Seer dreamed as he died, UNLESS the Dead repeat a bonus for someone in which case the Seer found a Wolf his final night). In fact the Seer could even announce his intended dream before each night in case he is killed, yes? And if the following day the Dead do NOT give that person an extra vote, we know that individual is guilty.

Surely the plan is at least a bit useful in that situation, yes?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh shush dearest, all is always forgiven, now come back to the bedroll.

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

[A Little Green]

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me.Hey! You of all people don't get to call me nit-picky! ;) You were unclear, I asked a few questions. Clearer now, thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hm, Agan is actually right... the thoughts she cites of Nog are most peculiar... although he is known for sometimes coming up with schemes overcombined up to the point of being Wolf-y... but yea, given all that... I am not going to vote him now, but watching for the time being...

Trying to earn cuteness points, or what? :D
Same goes for you - see above :)

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists... :rolleyes:
Point taken.

Well... okay, even though there is not so much about it,

++Nessa

Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me.

I am pretty sure now some good posting starts, but I really have to go to sleep. So, vote well... and hope that we don't lynch a Seer or something.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan (you're welcome! - they say laughter prolongs life, so maybe they won't see you in Mandos still for a while), phantom, Shasta (yes, I was sure the real fun will begin just now, but alas, I really have to sleep) and LG. Good night!

[Nogrod]

And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.Hmm... you're right, in case there is only one baddie the one coming back from Mandos can tell us of. But the possibility that we lose our seer and our ranger/lovers on the first Days so that there would be only one baddie-role to tell of sounds too depressing to focus on... so I was actually thinking about a situation nearer the endgame and more chances. So I totally overlooked that scenario. Anyway, probably not even a cobbler would dare to suggest that "let's lynch the hunter to let her/him take down the known wolf" as a way of a witty fooling of the villagers... :)

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").That is true - and I'm not suggesting that the living should just buy whatever comes from Mandos early on. I think I said something along the lines that "everyone should at least think about". Surely we can't trust the first extra vote sent from Mandos, or probably the second or third... but as time goes by the probability of the goodies running the Mandos increases (and people here are also better equipped to make sense of things). And once we get some decent information from Mandos then the extra-votes given start to be more or less reliable info indeed.


EDIT: X'd with what... a host of posts!

[A Little Green]

Well past bed-time for me. I'm going to go with

++ Lommy

since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example).

[Mithalwen]

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...


Wonder what? That I would somehow anticipate that you would find me suspicious and "start talking" and hour or so before you would claim that I was being quiet? Ludicrous. I have been around because I now have a computer and no job as opposed to a job and no computer. There has just been more going on later as a quick glance at distribition of posts over time would show. This says a lot more about you than me.

[Nessa Telrunya]

I'm positively stumped about who to vote. Everyone seems so ambiguous! :o

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Alright, after a quick read, the two I find most off are...

Phantom (surprise surprise) and Nogrod. Both seem, to me, to be trying to tell the wolves/cobblers what to do - in Phantom's case, it looks more like a Cobbler talking to the wolves and trusting to his reputation to not get him lynched.

That's what I've got. I'll do a more in-depth readthrough now.

[elronds_daughter]

Hrmmmphh. Seems I've missed a lot so far toDay, though none of it terribly conclusive. Lots of lengthy posts, though...

(As an aside, I probably should have informed everyone that when Days fall on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, I won't be around at all until a few hours from DL...methinks I am trying to cram too much into my last semester of school...)

Anyhow. Most unhappy with not having a very good read on anybody yet.

Legate, Nog, and Agan are of course posting their usual tomes. Lommy seems a little more...confused...than usual. (Though who am I to talk about "usual", this being only my third game ever...) phantom is on my good side at the moment. Despite the incessant chatter (joke), he seems to be thinking things through in a more, erm, down-to-earth fashion than other tome-writers (sorry, Legate and Co.).

Right. Well. Those are my limited observations for the moment. I'll be back in a while to vote. This is going to be a very interesting game....

EDIT: x'ed with Shasta (how did I forget about him???) and Nessa.

[Aganzir]

I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them. Yeah the gifteds are usually capable of thinking things through themselves, but saying something just to be on the safe side shouldn't hurt anyone.

At the moment some people seem to be (considering) voting for a quiet player. Is that a good idea? I'd actually rather leave the quieter players alive this time... The more they post, the more trails we have.

if you have an inkling of who the Seer might possibly be and that person dies, you should go ahead and point out your theory (especially if you can discover some sort of coded message or whatnot, I'm not the only person who does that sort of thing, am I?) and then treat future Dead-votes as a vindication of someone, assuming that the Seer is able to properly convince the Dead upon arrival.
That sounds reasonable, I guess (and hehe no you aren't :p)... But even a few baddies can screw up the voting in Mandos, so we really have no way of being sure. That's the problem with just about every plan. We can of course risk it and agree on a plan of sorts, especially if the lovers and/or Glorfindel is still alive, but I'm skeptical.

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.
I was looking forward to seeing your reaction. :p

Hey! You of all people don't get to call me nit-picky!
Yes I do. You always find me unclear and ask for a clarification. :p

[the phantom]

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

If the Wolves want to screw things up in Dead-Land, make them flush a kill on a Cobbler.

The obvious drawback is if we adopt this plan and all three Cobblers act Cobblerish and stay alive and, IF we fail to lynch Wolves early on, the Baddies can clinch victory a couple days before they normally could. But really that would assume that every little thing went wrong, yes?

So.... long live the Cobblers?

[Nogrod]

I don't want to bring in any old discussions and debates, but I must say Mith looks more like an innocent, because of her response to Legate.

A short list of my feelings before the voting (short on explanations as I don't have time to write any longer analysis).

Innocent:
Aganzir - Good posting, innocent vibes, feels like she's trying to find the answers that are for the benefit of the village.

Innocentish:
the phantom - Generally makes good points a wolf might not wish to make, it's just that a few of them do not let me pick him into category above.
Anguirel - Seems getting the idea of our good and makes posts a wolf-Ang probably wouldn't.
Mith - For her comment on Legate (and for that familiar annoyance against anything I say... if she were a wolf she would be nicer to me :p).

Could go either way:
Legate - Seems too happy to jump on some things I do disagree, but on the other hand hasn't said or done anything really suspicious.
Lommy - Basically seems to have the hang of it but has the air of avoiding things or, well, what some others have said, over-stating things. Smething says I should not trust her but on the other hand I find nothing clear-cut wrong.
Nerwen - Like someone said before: both clearly up to the situation but still mainly just bantering (was online only relatively early on the Day so that might be understandable).

Slightly worried:
Boro - the way he jumps on someone (yes, me) trying to turn the discussion on a more fruitful ground by saying it's "spinning things for my purposes" (so you should read they are bad) and after being questioned about that by some others, changing his point into me being a pessimist (which wasn't the point of my message) and thus suspicious? Odd, from him.


Of others I have not much to say. But will probably vote for one of them others.

Everyone from the classes I've done here will probably be readable in a way or another.

In a few minutes something. Then vote. Then to bed.


EDIT: X'd from Mith onwards.

[the phantom]

I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them.
Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.

[Mithalwen]

As for the quiet players... there is often a reluctance to lynch the quiet players in the first instance they often get the benefit of the doubt which a wolf might take advantage of. A gifted player might not to want to draw attention to themselves either but they of course wouldn't want to be so inconspicuous that they made themselves a night target for the wolves (a death that would provide no clues to the village). Of course the fact that death isn't quite the end changes the dynamic.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.


I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.

[the phantom]

Shasta- that only applies to difficult to spot strategies, or ploys that cease to function once voiced. Plans that require the adoption of the village (like my Seer dream pass-along) must be voiced to serve any purpose.

You'll recall that in the past I have quite openly declared certain ploys, and pointed out that doing so would actually make them more effective (for instance, when I was attempting to bait the Wolves into killing me, and went so far as to say so).

(EDIT: Usually when I've been irritated in the past with people talking about strategies, it's specifically because I'm doing something that won't work with too much attention and people are pointing to it for no clear reason.)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

My 'Blind Luck' game (from long, long ago) didn't reveal roles, which turned out to be a good thing because I was able to keep the fun going long after the village massacred my wolf team in the first two Days. The point of the game was to see who would be the last person standing, not so much the last team standing, and revealing roles would have messed that up entirely. But anyway, the point is that I didn't reveal roles and the village still successfully took out my wolves one after the other.

So though it might be a little frustrating to us as a village to be playing blind, it doesn't mean we're doing badly, it just means we can't rely on fallacies like, "He voted for her, and she was a [role], so they must be-" and will have to rely more on intuition.

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

I can't decide if that's brilliant or ridiculous. :)

WHERE?
Fea

Leijonien kanssa. Also, stuck in a city waiting for my windshield to be replaced. But I'm home now.

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

Honestly, I signed up because I knew that no matter what my role was, dying wouldn't put a damper on my participation. If I was bad and a seer nabbed me (as always happens when I'm bad), it's not the end of the world because I can still muck up the works on the Dead Thread. Since I'm good, even if I die casually, I'll probably have more fun and be more useful dead anyway.

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

And then, we butter it, and break it into little pieces to show that we don't intend to hurt each other, and we eat it with great ceremony, once we know what it is...

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin... As a good guy I tend to consider the merits of a false reveal. I once successfully drew the attention off of the actual seer for an entire game (I was the hunter). But in this scenario, where roles aren't actually revealed, a false revelation isn't irrelevant so much as harmful. If the good guys send good guys into the Dead Thread thinking they're the wrong role, it serves no good purpose.

So.... long live the Cobblers?

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.

Okay. I'm now caught up, and have addressed the main points I found to be of interest.

I should be around until deadline now, I think.

[Nogrod]

I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have to head off to rehearsal and won't be back before deadline - it's likely to run late.

++Nogrod

I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!"

[the phantom]

Okay, so, the approach-

Would everyone agree that our chances of victory are extremely high if we simply-
1) Own the Dead-Thread.
2) Keep Lovers & Glorfy alive early on.

If so, then everything we do should be based upon aiding one or both of those points.
So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.
Ha ha, I actually thought of Nilp earlier, and how this situation was perfect for him to claim the right to blaze the trail into the Dead-Thread.

Oh, and I am going to blame that earlier error on the fact that I was actually eating a roll at the time. :D Too funny.

[Nogrod]

Shasta - first overabundant banter, then being totally wrong... he's a clever man so he can't be just erring here?
Glirdan - only a few early banters...
A Little Green - not too much participation but has posted on substance unlike some others on this list.
elronds_daughter - one post, puzzlingly non-commitant looking at the fact that she actually said something.
Mänwe - one post, one sentence, saying nothing.
Loslote - overdoing the banter...
Nessa - Not so bad Mith let's us understand, if she meant that the wolves don't know whether they killed a gifted, an ordo or a cobbler, but quite minimal contributions to say it minimalistically.
Sally - posted when there was actually discussion going on but only bantered (except suspecting Lottie for bantering with Shasta - why not the other way around?).
Fea one post now, neutralish.

No posts so far, no vote from me on D1
Blind Guardian
Wilwa


In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.


So my vote is going to someone on the list above.

A cigarette to think about it and then to sleep.


EDIT X'd with a few... heh seemingly also Shasta's vote... :)

[Glirdan]

I'm back everyone, I've been at work all day and then sleeping so you know, not a lot of time to do....well...anything really. Am in the middle of reading everything to date and just want to throw a few things out.

Ang with all his talk of double lynching has me worried. Too bold to be a wolf, but still subtle enough to be a Cobbler. The wording of his second point in post 58 (same post as his double lynch idea) has me worried

The wolves are in a bit of a bind here

Am I the only one that is seeming to understand this as sympathy towards the Wolves??

Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.

Thank you as that is actually precisely the case. When you have a DL that is your bed time and then you sleep for eight hours only to wake up and go to work for six where you have no computer access, your posting becomes limited. Yay for working for Wal-Mart....not

I will not lie though, I don't see people's "Boro's a cobbler" theory at all....However, I'm not really buying his schpeal on Nog being a Cobbler too.

Okay, back to reading the rest (I'm half way through page 2 right now) and will be back to post again.

[the phantom]

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.
Yes, well, I sort of wondered if it would be worth it to let them go ahead and do it, and if part way through the game we appear to have six Cobblers in the Living thread we just off them all.

But of course a Gifted could use that as cover too, naturally. In the end it would depend upon the Seer nabbing one of the Wolves and using affiliations and such from the known Wolf to point to the others (particularly if they are Cobbler-acting), seeing as Cobbler-Wolf links are going to be rather difficult to forge (or at least we hope so).

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog

[Nogrod]

Good to see Glirdan back again. Not voting him now.

From the last list of mine I could vote

for pure annoyance of not playing:
Mänwe

for evading any commitment to any view:
Sally
Elron

for the above + overdoing the banter:
Lottie

But the problem is they are more or less all the "usual suspects" and as such they are shots in the dark.

I'd like to vote for Shasta as he gives me bad vibes right now, but I'd hate to vote from grounds that are at least in part arising from feeling of receiving an evil intended vote.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

Exactly.

So basically, this plan is bunk. I'm tempted to go with you on the seer-death-with-a-plan idea. The biggest problem is, here's how I would address it as a wolf:

Day time WolFea: I'm the seer!
Night time WolFea: Hey other wolves, if you Night kill me, the village won't find out I'm not actually the Seer, because they won't be told my role!

Dead Threaders vote for people WolFea tells them to.

At some point the real seer counter-reveals but has absolutely no way to prove themselves.

I mean, there's no good reason for the good guys to believe anybody who says they're the seer, so setting up a plan where we trust somebody who says they're the seer? Is full of danger.

[Anguirel]

Anyone who is killed by wolves isn't a wolf. But they can be a cobbler (I still think that term is ridiculous - maybe just 'turncoat', traitor, etc? It's basically the newer and less dramatic Cursed Villager, come to think of it). And the spirits in Mandos can't even check them if they are cobblers. So the Dead do have it hard, harder than I initially assumed.

This makes phantom's point about Cobbler survival, and Fea's riposte to it, the most interesting points I've taken in so far. I was utterly convinced by the good intentions of both statements, but the latter one, that wolves can pretend to be cobblers, does trump. Pessimism in ascendant. Ho-hum. Still, I don't want to see either of these theorisers hang yet. Fea's game indeed is quite a formative comparison which I remember with frankly frustrating accuracy.

Someone used the word "dangerous" in an odd way, about innocent and helpful dead, but I've lost track of who (I'd guess Aganzir) and actually I think such semantics can be overplayed

Basically, this version of Tol-in-Gaurhoth makes or breaks the analyst player (as opposed to the "crazed intuition/half-baked arrogance" player, me). The rules are so knottily intense that they still have us thinking about them, not each other. At this stage, the game is overwhelmingly more fascinating than the players.

I notice by the by that some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent - I don't agree with this at all; this is a totally novel sort of challenge and I feel utterly incompetent myself. It's very hard to judge on 'past form' in this one... (and that's one of my favourite techniques)

I'm a bit suspicious of Nogrod for sticking up for me at one point. Sorry about that. We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

[Aganzir]

Sorry about being quiet, I've been IMing with a beautiful lady I'm possibly going to paint. :smokin:

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.
Hmm. That depends on your point of view. The cobblers are going to cause trouble - both here and in Mandos. But it's going to be a serious problem only if they mess up some information delivery plan. So yes to lynching cobblers, no to plans they can easily affect.

As for the quiet players... there is often a reluctance to lynch the quiet players in the first instance they often get the benefit of the doubt which a wolf might take advantage of.
Not recently - people have been quite happy about lynching players who post little substance, I think. (But I admit I haven't been very active lately.)

Leijonien kanssa.
That's as good an excuse for not posting as Greenie had. :cool:

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin...
Bunny fangs!

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.
I agree with Shasta about Nog being suspicious but I don't see anything particularly bad about his defense of phantom. I think they just think alike on certain things regardless of their roles... And phantom looks almost alright now (although the sooner he's dead the happier I am).

In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.
No.
The louder players leave more trails. They are also more likely to contribute more in Mandos which is good, especially if they're innocent. I strongly object to deaths that don't reveal us anything (in the sense that you can't find connections even later when we possibly have information from Mandos or the seer). The longer someone lives, the more she posts.
I know Nog likes lynching quiet players. So do I. But in this game I think it's different.

++NOGROD

Bedtime!

[the phantom]

the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me
I noticed this section during a quick skim, but in fact I came away from it thinking non-Cobbler, as she seemed to praise the Cobblers a bit much. If you read the way she says it, doesn't it make you ask who would set a standard like that for themselves?

What it made me wonder- is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread, in which case her high opinion of what the Cobblers are capable of could be read as, "You guys better be coming up some good stuff to help us!!" At least that's the gut-reaction reading I took from her post.

So, while my reasoning is entirely different, I am at this point okay with lynching Lommy today. In fact the idea enters my mind of Greenie wolf-on-wolf voting Lommy today under the premise "She's a Cobbler!" and if it's proven that Lommy is in fact guilty, but of Wolvery instead, Greenie may look doubly good (willing to lynch baddie but wrong about Wolvery, since surely a Wolf would have the sense to accuse a fellow Wolf based upon Wolvery to buy herself some credit, if you follow me).

[Nogrod]

Okay.

++ Shasta

He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.


EDIT: X'd with tp & Agan & Ang & Fea...

[Aganzir]

some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent
Ahahaha! :D:D

(What did we learn from this? Say something nasty about Lommy and Agan laughs.)

Okie dokie going now.

[Anguirel]

we learn from this that poor old Uncle Anguirel is too tired to spell "usually" properly.

...but I intend to try and camp out till the deadline yet...

[the phantom]

I have to leave very soon, but I'll be back and posting during the final hour. Based purely upon gut- I'm not completely happy with lynching Shasta or Nog, I know nothing at all about Nessa and Manwe, and Lommy is a decent choice based upon my previous post. That's all I have time for now.

[elronds_daughter]

But the problem is they are more or less all the "usual suspects" and as such they are shots in the dark.

D'awwww, thanks, Nog. I'm one of the usual suspects! I'm flattered. :)

I hate that I'm still in my usual initial "Well, these people are acting kind of oddly, but there's more oddness than usual this game, and anybody could be anybody at this point" phase. I really hope that starts passing more quickly...

Right. I shall probably have to go soon (though I'm still going to put off voting for a little while longer), so I'm going to go re-read.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, I thought I wasn't going to be here, but rehearsal is going slow and I have my laptop, so why not.

And what do I come back to find?

Okay.

++ Shasta

He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

I am quite literally shocked. Every single point in this paragraph - and yes, I do very literally mean every single one - is assumption/blatant generalization/"this is the way it is, and no, I don't have to back it up, just go with it, and here, let me add in some analysis of Shasta as a person just for emphasis", and not only that, strikes me as just plain mean. I don't know what I did to expect such treatment from Nogrod of all people, but really, I'm incredibly annoyed right now.

I didn't for a moment consider? Absolute bullcrap. I obviously considered what you were saying - otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I "decided" that, did I? And I suppose you're in my head, that you can make such firm and flawless notions of what I did and did not do?

And the last point is the worst - that I voted you because you wouldn't be back to defend yourself. First off it's hurtful that you'd even think I'd stoop so low. Secondly, what? I wasn't planning to be back myself - that's why I voted as early as I did.



It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

[Mänwe]

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

Just playing my part :p

I'll pick the venue, you pick the weapons..

Now for the quiet ones-

satansaloser2005- A post, banter.Good.
Fea - two posts, general.Good.
A Little Green- three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor.
elronds_daughter- two posts, general. Was innocent last game after similar start.Good.
Glirdan- two posts, banter, third post general. Good. Much like Manwe.
Wilwa- no post, quiet as last game and turned out to be a wolf.
Nessa- two posts, general. turned out to be a wolf in the last game.veering, moderate or poor.

I'm going to vote, as I do;

++A Little Green

It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

I think you might be..he's fishing isn't he?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Shasta - is fully of shenanigans, but I'm not all together concerned that they're wolftastic ones. Reserve the right to change my mind. Not voting for him.

Nogrod - is observant and talkative. I approve of both things. Not voting for him, unless I decide he'd be super useful once Dead.

Aganzir - is pretty on top of seeing pros and cons in different courses of action. Worth keeping around because she offers prompt and honest critique of ideas.

Legate - seems coherent. Didn't set off any alarm bells and posts with enough content to keep me docile in terms of his life span.

Lommy - Ditto what I said about Legate.
the phantom - is offering ideas. Knowing him, the ideas are both solid suggestions and veiled tests. Also knowing him, we won't find out who passes or fails the tests. However, still knowing him, he's useful.

Boromir88 - amuses me. Speaks sense. Atta boy.

Mithalwen - Sensible. Concise. I love concision.

Anguirel - makes astute observations about the dynamics between players and rules. I'd like to keep him around purely because he rocks the logic.

Glirdan - ...
A Little Green - ...
elronds_daughter - ...
Mänwe - ...
Nerwen - ...
Loslote - ...
Wilwa - ...
Nessa - ...
Blind Guardian - ...
satansaloser2005 - ...
So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread). So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

[Glirdan]

I am quite literally shocked. Every single point in this paragraph - and yes, I do very literally mean every single one - is assumption/blatant generalization/"this is the way it is, and no, I don't have to back it up, just go with it, and here, let me add in some analysis of Shasta as a person just for emphasis", and not only that, strikes me as just plain mean. I don't know what I did to expect such treatment from Nogrod of all people, but really, I'm incredibly annoyed right now.

I didn't for a moment consider? Absolute bullcrap. I obviously considered what you were saying - otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE SAID ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I "decided" that, did I? And I suppose you're in my head, that you can make such firm and flawless notions of what I did and did not do?

And the last point is the worst - that I voted you because you wouldn't be back to defend yourself. First off it's hurtful that you'd even think I'd stoop so low. Secondly, what? I wasn't planning to be back myself - that's why I voted as early as I did.

X'ed with Fea



It's far too early in the game to be as overly malicious as that post was, and if I'm overreacting then I apologize, but...

This entire post alone takes Shasta off my voting list completely. Yes, it is an over-reaction, yet I have seen him (I apologize for the meta-reasoning, but this is my way of making it up to him :) ) do this once before and I believed him to be evil.......

Instead we lynched the Seer on Day 1. Shasta was that Seer. He made the same over-defensiveness then as he is now, and a Wolf/Cobbler Shasta would not be so blatant to draw THAT much bad attention to himself. He is definitely safe from my vote.

I'm actually not entirely understanding where all this supsicion of Lommy is coming from. I'm going to have to go back and read just her posts to understand some stuf.

As it stands, I'm still leery about Agan....he still seems way to Cobblery to me. If we can't get a Wolf, I would much rather get rid of a Cobbler and limit the Wolves out-voting capabilities at the end.

Xed with Fea

[Mänwe]

So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread).

So you're just as prepared to vote those for whom you have made an opinion? As they fit your 'deadify' plan the best..

Instead we lynched the Seer on Day 1. Shasta was that Seer. He made the same over-defensiveness then as he is now, and a Wolf/Cobbler Shasta would not be so blatant to draw THAT much bad attention to himself. He is definitely safe from my vote.

Too obvious for a double bluff?

[elronds_daughter]

So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

This is the way my brain is working too... The train of thought goes: "Okay, we want to kill the baddies. But we also don't want to make malicious ghosts. Crap."

This tension between Nogrod and Shasta worries me somewhat. Hrmmm.

[elronds_daughter]

Right. Must go. Voting.

++Nogrod

Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost.

[Nessa Telrunya]

satansaloser2005 - ...
So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread). So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

This is some of the best sense I've heard toDay. Not particularly because it's sally she contemplates lynching, but because the concept itself seems pretty good.

But, with that said, my Day 1 vote will probably be random, and based on knee-jerk reaction, in a wonderfully useless fashion. :p

We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

I'd like to be grateful dead too. ;)

[Nogrod]

As time here passes away, I need to sleep and can't fight back against this bad idea spreading. So just read what I've said and make wise choises.

Agan - even if I think her innocent - on the contrary makes hasty choices. It is a debatable point whether we should lynch the "quiet" or "under-radar types" here or not. I do think they are easier to find out about in Mandos than here as it will be obvious some of the more active ones will end up there anyway. But as I said, the merits are relative.

Heh, sorry Elron... :)


Oh, I see Shasta is back... Well, an interesting reaction.

After you have cooled down, let us hear why what I have been talking about, since my very first post, is bad or evil or suspicious? Start from #40 - it started the whole discussion and you can see I'm not parrotting others but actually making the points from the get-go - that I think was your stated reason to vote me but it just betrays you haven't even read the thread, right? Or that you act like you haven't?

If you're innocent (which your reaction doesn't quite support), then you should blame yourself if things go wrong for you or me.

Okay, Good night now. I still have a five hours to sleep if I go right now.


EDIT: X'd again with a host... :(

[Anguirel]

As in, they're Hamlet and Laertes, Balin and Balan, Turin and Beleg (hasn't happened yet, but there is acute foresight amid the kin of Feanor, whatevs)? Yeah, I agree, for now. While it is irksome that they're becoming the lead candidates, the price of caution is standing by to watch the stoning of the more conspicuous...

Manwe is surprisingly acerbic though that may be a stylistic thing. elronds_daughter - I'd be more comfortable calling her Celebrian, but then again maybe Elrond (as yet unborn) had another sprog - makes a very sensible point about the compromises entailed in our lynching. Basically, within our category of suspects, we should go for the most vocal one. There's more to gain from a punt on the phantoms of this world than a pure shot in the dark; though killing a vocal player is admittedly disastrous if they're...shoe fetishists

addendum: crossed 'Celebrian', Nessa, Nogrod

[Mänwe]

Oh, I see Shasta is back... Well, an interesting reaction.

After you have cooled down, let us hear why what I have been talking about, since my very first post, is bad or evil or suspicious? Start from #40 - it started the whole discussion and you can see I'm not parrotting others but actually making the points from the get-go - that I think was your stated reason to vote me but it just betrays you haven't even read the thread, right? Or that you act like you haven't?

If you're innocent (which your reaction doesn't quite support), then you should blame yourself if things go wrong for you or me.

Okay, Good night now. I still have a five hours to sleep if I go right now.


EDIT: X'd again with a host... :({My bold}

I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...

[Nerwen]

Hello, again. I don't have time to post at length, or read the thread properly– however firstly can I suggest we try and avoid a mass-slaughter toDay? I think that's going to be more likely to help the wolves than the village. I mean, the dead are still dead, right? They don't count in the tally.

What it made me wonder- is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread, in which case her high opinion of what the Cobblers are capable of could be read as, "You guys better be coming up some good stuff to help us!!" At least that's the gut-reaction reading I took from her post.

So, while my reasoning is entirely different, I am at this point okay with lynching Lommy today. In fact the idea enters my mind of Greenie wolf-on-wolf voting Lommy today under the premise "She's a Cobbler!" and if it's proven that Lommy is in fact guilty, but of Wolvery instead, Greenie may look doubly good (willing to lynch baddie but wrong about Wolvery, since surely a Wolf would have the sense to accuse a fellow Wolf based upon Wolvery to buy herself some credit, if you follow me).

Mmmn. Cobbler-talk tends to be popular among wolves even in a more normal game– makes them seem useful, distracts the village from hunting wolves, etc– and would be more so in this one. On the other hand, the set-up in this game also means that cobblers are much more likely to give themselves away at this point.) So I'm not sure.

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So you're just as prepared to vote those for whom you have made an opinion? As they fit your 'deadify' plan the best..

No. If I have an opinion, I already think you're too valuable to die on the first day. My vote will come from the people in the 'eh, I don't care' group, but will probably come from more active members of that sampling.

This is some of the best sense I've heard toDay. Not particularly because it's sally she contemplates lynching, but because the concept itself seems pretty good.

Sally is on the list, but just for clarification, the list is composed of anybody with that uncertain dot dot dot after their name.

elronds_daughter - I'd be more comfortable calling her Celebrian

But Elrond's daughter was... Arwen...

:confused:

Okay. Dead tired, so if I fall asleep before voting, blame the fact that I've had a pretty insane past few days and I'm snuggled in bed watching season two of Buffy. I'm *trying* to be awake for deadline, but I make no promises.

[Anguirel]

Ouch Fea, re Elrond and his brats. What can I say. It's been a while...

[Glirdan]

I'm going to do a quick analysis of Lommy's post.....all three of them :rolleyes:

POST #62 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647626&postcount=62)

Her first post of the day.

First bit is mainly banter (and I'm going to assume this may include the bit about lynching phantom today as well.....no matter how much I would like to see it happen :P )

And that means also, that getting the lovers and the ranger dead will be the first priority of the wolves: if they die early their return will not help us that much (and a double-protection is not such a mighty weapon in a big village than later) as the living then lose their only shot at any tangible information.

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Actually, this statement alone seem pretty cobblerish to me. Noggins raised a very valuable point on the Wolves (a very obvious one however, which makes me raise my eyebrow in his general direction). My question is why is this Cobblerish at all? The only thing that is remotely suspicious is the fact that he is stating the obvious, and that isn't that suspicious, people do it all the time.....well, to be a little more accurate, I do it all the time. :rolleyes:

Quotes Nerwen and raises a valuable point about the Hunter.

What seems to be a little bit more banter with Boro[b/]

Says shes paranoid about the Cobblers and that there are more people messing with our heads and wants them gone, but still states that the Wolves are our main priority.

A little more banter with [b]Mith and Sally and about Legate

Quite optimistic, given that the regular scenario is that the wolves spot the seer early on and the ranger lives until the end game, which is kind of unlike what we want this time. In this game, we really got to use our wits (even) more than usual. A random vote from anyone toDay and you have a host of hostile penguins at your door. Just warning.

This whole quote (which is in response to something of Boro's) has me quite befuddled. What are you trying to say?? As for the random vote, whether we like it or not, Day 1 votes are always random and Day 2 will always bring "a host of hostile penguins at your door" as you so put it. We don't have anything substantial to go on for our votes on Day 1 unless someone outwardly yells "Look here!! I'm a Wolf!". The only difference with this game is that it is going to be like that for pretty much the whole game, unless we have a Gifted who died come back and help inform us. And even then, there always stands the possibility that a Cobbler or Wolf is manipulating the outcome.

Her last comment for that post was in response to Ang saying that she believes him to be wolfish.

POST #64 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647628&postcount=64)

She makes a suspicion list.....after possibly a page and a half of posts, one page of which was pure banter.....The list itself seeming like it's pretty much all banter........Hmmmmm.....

She does say however, and I quote:

Normally I don't suspect anyone, this time I suspect almost everyone.

Just a theory.....perhaps because of the type of game things of flipped for her?? :confused:

POST #76 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647641&postcount=76)

After three posts (all of which, may I add were pretty well close together [ie. 62, 64, 76]), she votes Manwe, who had one post at the time and was basic banter.





Okay, I think I kind of see everyone's point on her now. She seems a little, wish-washy, for lack of a better word. And her reasoning for her vote for Manwe could just as easily be applied to about five other players, myself included. It seems like it's a throw away vote. But if that's the case, why not just say it's a throw away vote??


EDIT: X'ed since my last

[Loslote]

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Yeah, normally I try to make some pretense at fighting the inevitable lynch, but this time I was just going to try for "First Dead Head". And so, naturally, this turns out to be the one game that I don't come back to a lovely little clump of votes. :p

I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...

I don't like the way he seems to be sitting back and laughing at the 'spat' between Shasta and Nog, but what's worse is he then pokes and prods them in a seeming attempt to escalate the fight more. By pointing out the one line in Nog's post that could be taken the wrong way, Mänwe's making things worse, not A) ignoring it so we can move on and try to hunt wolves or B) trying to resolve the fight so we can move on and try to hunt wolves.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Sorry, but I've gotta get in my vote before DL! (Even if I'll probably miss everything :rolleyes:)

++Legate

Because he voted me. :p And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?

[Boromir88]

I find myself having trouble concentrating anything after being referred to as Bobbler. Nice one Greenie. :p

I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++NERWEN

Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one.

Voting now because I'm not going to be awake for DL (especially since B88 informed me that DL is an hour after I'd thought it was). Literally can't keep my eyes open. Nighty night, all.

[Nerwen]

Sorry, but I've gotta get in my vote before DL! (Even if I'll probably miss everything :rolleyes:)

++Legate

Because he voted me. :p And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?
Yes– except you're at the least the second person to vote on the grounds that the target would be a "useful ghost". I don't like that reasoning at all.

EDIT:X'd with Fea. DItto that one.

[the phantom]

Yes– except you're at the least the second person to vote on the grounds that the target would be a "useful ghost". I don't like that reasoning at all.
I agree with that. The idea of a "useful ghost" seems extremely weird to me. The only truly "useful ghosts" are the thread-hoppers. Everyone else will simply be exactly who they are just posting on a different thread, and if they were mistrusted to the point that they were lynched by the Living, what are the odds that they will have much chance at influencing the Dead for positive purposes? I mean, they could certainly, but I imagine that trust on the Dead-Thread will be strongly on the side of Night-kills.

I mean, it almost sounds as if the reasoning is, "This person is vocal and probably will serve us well in death!" in which case you ought to go ahead and say outright that you have to intention of lynching a Wolf this day, but rather someone that could also be helpful on the Living thread that you may come to trust and so on... I dunno... I feel as if my rebuke isn't making great sense because really I can't make much sense of the idea I'm speaking against.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mänwe
I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...
I don't like the way he seems to be sitting back and laughing at the 'spat' between Shasta and Nog, but what's worse is he then pokes and prods them in a seeming attempt to escalate the fight more. By pointing out the one line in Nog's post that could be taken the wrong way, Mänwe's making things worse, not A) ignoring it so we can move on and try to hunt wolves or B) trying to resolve the fight so we can move on and try to hunt wolves.
A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie) but then you, Lottie, seem to be assuming the innocence of both parties, which is rather worrying in its turn.

EDIT:X'd with tp.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I did my old lady doze off on the sofa thing. Hope I have another hour..*yawn* but have to say random stab in the dark and Somnus look good now...

[Glirdan]

I wouldn't usually double post, but seeing as it has gone dead....

The voting count stands thus:

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate++Nessa
Greenie++Lommy
Shasta++Nog
Agan++Nog(2)
Nog++Shasta
Manwe++Greenie
Elron++Nog(3)

With these people remaining to vote

Glirdan
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

Out of these, BG and Wilwa have been no shows (no I have not heard from my darling butterfly so don't ask)

Now if I HAD to do a suspicions list (which it seems like I do seeing as no one is around to make conversation with :rolleyes:) it would be as this

Inclined to Trust
Phantom - As much as it KILLS me to not want to vote him and see him join the mob of Fenrises, he has made far too much sense and his ideas and thoughts to bold to be a phantywolf.....although, it is phantom and this could be exactly what a phantywolf would want. Either way, I'm more inlcined to trust him and keep him around.
Shasta - After that, albeit, overreaction to Noggy, I'm more inclined to trust him (please read my post #134 for the full explanation
Fea - Even in her very few posts, Fea has made what has to be the most sense out of everyone that I have seen post today
Agan - She's been here for the better part of the Day, making very good contributions and talking perfect sense in my opinion

Leery of
Lommy - see my last post
Ang - There was something in his earlier posts that have just made me feel uneasy about him. I don't entirely suspect Wolf, but Cobbler is definitely coming to mind when I read his posts
Boro - All day, his attack (okay, maybe that's a little too strong of a word...his, thoughts and ideas will suffice for this) on [/b]Nog[/b] just made no sense to me. Granted, Nog has me a little baffled, but that's not unusual. But Boro's has been pretty adamant about it....I don't know, something just feels off.
Mith - Most of her posts have been nothing but banters and that bugs me. Something about it is just not sitting right.


Unsure
Nerwen/b] - Her first few posts of the day were all banter, then she disappeared for the better portion. No idea what to make here.
[b]Noggins - This is nothing new for me...he always has me confused and by midday on Day 2, we'll be knocking heads :rolleyes:
Greenie - I haven't seen enough of her to say anything really.
Legate - I actually just remembered he was playing....oh wow.....bed time.....
Lottie - I really just have no idea about her...

??????????????
Manwe
Nessa
Elron
The three above have posted like three to five times each, most of which was banter, some of which had little to no substance in their posts and have been absent for the better part of the day.
Sally - Hasn't posted much....BUT did inform us she may not be able to and that she may not be voting.

No Show
Wilwa
BG


I won't vote for the no shows. For one, I'm sure miss butterfly has a perfectly good explanation for not being here, for another I will give them the one day grace period. I will not vote for Sally[b] as she has explained herself quite well. I will not vote for any of those under the [b]Inclined to Trust list as I want to keep them around.

Seeing as I want to hear more from Manwe, Elron and Nessa, I will also give them a one day grace period.

Which leaves everyone else.....Okay, will be back to vote shortly.


EDIT: Xed since last (turns out I didn't double post :D)

[Anguirel]

Dead right Nerwen - while Fea was right to bring up the compromise between catching wolves and creating useful spirits, to vote primarily with the latter aim in mind - as I think she, among others, has done - seems to fall too far on the wrong side of that compromise.

You happen to be the object of Fea's privileging of ghost above gaur, but that is for the moment irrelevant; the larger point being that of the reasoning she presented for voting for you, none of it was anti-wolf rather than pro-ghost.

On the other hand I don't yet suspect Fea herself. The fact is that the exciting thing going on is the contribution of the dead, so it's a natural step to concentrate on the Dead rather than the Living because of their novelty. It's easy to forget that our real aim is still exterminating the wolves. For large parts of today, indeed, I have.

At least the case against Nogrod is one built on genuine, if very slight, suspicion. I'd rather vote for Manwe, but I don't think yet another candidate at this point - a relatively taciturn one too - is necessarily helpful...

[Anguirel]

I didn't realise Manwe already had a vote, that invalidates one of my objects to persecuting him.

On the other hand, quite tempted to the vote in hot blood for the next chancer who dares call me a cobbler...

[the phantom]

As far as Nog versus Shasta, upon rereading Shasta's post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647698&postcount=131) I'm more than ever leaning towards both of them being innocent.

Glirdan has already expressed most of what I would say regarding Shasta's defense (it shouts "innocent" to me as much as anything I've seen from anyone today).

Similarly, when I look at the way in which Nog accused Shasta, while it may be wrong it does not strike me as invention. His claim that Shasta particularly went after him rather than me based upon who would be around at the deadline- it really sounds like honest paranoia and annoyance. If I recall I have actually been chided for doing the same thing- always assuming that all the baddies are out to get me in particular, and so if someone did to me what Shasta did to Nog I can well imagine having a "Ah ha! Trying to kill me, eh?!" reaction to it, and building the case from there.

[Mithalwen]

Ah another hour, another list ergo another suspect...
Less than 24 hours in and I am not sitting right with someone "check"
flying under the radar "check"
Quite disappointed noone has cursed day ones...
But Fea loves me... and is squabbling with Ang. Joy... to be honest my voting this game may be skewed by the fear of "Huis Clos" situations in the next world. Hoping whne my time comes it will be more Apres Vie...

[Boromir88]

I'm completely lost on this entire voting for people to be good to control the dead thread. Umm, am I mistaken in believing we win by lynching wolves in the living thread? I'm sorry I'm just not understanding this logic of filling the dead thread with people we actually think are innocent...? Why are we even planning this? :confused:

1) We win by killing wolves in this life, not by filling the dead place with innocents. Am I foolish in thinking those two things contradict?

2) Simple numbers work out that innocents will control the dead thread. It serves the wolves little good to get lynched, or they lose. Maybe one wolf would start going to work if lynched, but that's not something we should concern ourselves with. And even if Cobblers seek to get themselves killed to work beyond the grave, they don't know who the wolves are.

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

So, let's end this silly "we should think about keeping the control of the dead thread in the hands of the innocents" when the real problem should be, handling the business of this thread...lynch wolves.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen

[Nerwen]

Dead right Nerwen - while Fea was right to bring up the compromise between catching wolves and creating useful spirits, to vote primarily with the latter aim in mind - as I think she, among others, has done - seems to fall too far on the wrong side of that compromise.

You happen to be the object of Fea's privileging of ghost above gaur, but that is for the moment irrelevant; the larger point being that of the reasoning she presented for voting for you, none of it was anti-wolf rather than pro-ghost.
I was actually talking about Nessa's vote on Legate, not Fea's on me– but the same thing applies.

EDIT:X'd since Il Fenriso Lupo at #156.

[the phantom]

About the current candidates- I am willing to try Lommy, and possibly Green. Given my lack of experience with them I have no thoughts on Manwe or Nessa, but given the format (the fact that everyone gets to keep playing) I don't feel at all bad about lynching them in order to save someone I feel better about.

[Anguirel]

You're right Boromir, and what you say needs to be said; but it kind of has been said. Perhaps more volume won't go amiss. As I suggested, I think the dead Thread's getting a lot of concentration as an idea because it's new, shiny, and mysterious, a bit more interesting than the turgid if important business, often unrewarding, of hunting a wolf on Day One. But we seem to have let it distract us overmuch. My fault among others.

Mith, as far as I know I'm not scrapping with Fea, I just disagree with the reasoning of her vote. Or rather, I think its real reasoning is exhaustion, which means it's sort of lost sight of Slaying Enemies...

[Glirdan]

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

I definitely understand this and totally agree that worrying about the dead thread should not be our concern....at this time. It will, if it comes down to it closer to the end, take more precendence as the game progresses and have a bigger impact then. Here's the scenario I have playing in my head

Down to four villagers and three Wolves. All the Wolves band together to kill one of the four villagers, the extra two votes kick in (lets say for a Wolf), thus killing a Wolf (if xe has two votes at this point), revealing who the other two Wolves are. Village wins.

That's the LAST CASE SCENARIO. Why all the talk about worrying who's in the dead thread now and what kind of impact it will have now (excluding if one of the Gifteds were to die). Really, it should be those who are alive later in the game who worry about it then. At least that's my understanding of the thread, because at this stage of the game, whether we come to Day 2 with 18 or 19 players, those two votes won't go a very long way. They will help, most definitely, but they will not have final impact.

X'ed with phantom (x2), Nerwen and Ang

[Loslote]

A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie) but then you, Lottie, seem to be assuming the innocence of both parties, which is rather worrying in its turn.

But it doesn't matter if they're innocent or not. If this turns into a giant Shasta vs. Nog fight (anyone remember Roa? :p ) then either way, there won't be much productive reasoning going on.

Now, I'll have to vote and run, so, for his rather worrisome post...

++Mänwe

EDIT: xed since Nerwen

[the phantom]

I'm actually not entirely understanding where all this supsicion of Lommy is coming from.
My case is here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=647692&postcount=125), and stems from this Lommy quote-
Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all.

[Boromir88]

I'm kind of leery of Nog's 3 votes, because usually he's a tough nut to lynch early on. And really I'm not even aware, to steal words from Glirdan, "adamantly" went after Nog and to steal words from Legate launched a "crusade" against pessimism.

What I said was an instant reaction I had regarding Nog's post. Then Agan said if Nog had continued the banter, I'd probably say he wasn't being the normal Nog, so I explained more. Those two seem to be making too much out of my suspicions. They were serious suspicions and feelings about Nog, but I wasn't aware I was aggressively attacking him?

And buggers, I'm missing a new episode of The Tudors. In my heart of hearts, dramatic history beats WW, even with such excellent and more admirable company.

So...

++Legate

[Glirdan]

Okay, I remember that and I see your reasoning and find that it has its merits. One problem I see with it is right here:

is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread,

My only problem with this is the fact that there are so many people that are Cobblerish at this point in the game and that she actually has no real suspects. Her vote was more or less a throwaway.

I do, however agree with everything else and wouldn't mind seeing Lommy lynched myself. Her vote is what's really getting me. She only had three votes, votes for Manwe, gives and explanation but the explanation pretty much said "Look at me, I'm a throw away vote in disguise"

[Boromir88]

You're right Boromir, and what you say needs to be said; but it kind of has been said. Perhaps more volume won't go amiss. As I suggested, I think the dead Thread's getting a lot of concentration as an idea because it's new, shiny, and mysterious, a bit more interesting than the turgid if important business, often unrewarding, of hunting a wolf on Day One. But we seem to have let it distract us overmuch. My fault among others.


Aye, I might have repeated what others said, simply because I basically stopped reading much of the thread in my cloud of confusion if I was actually understanding this whole thing properly.

[Mithalwen]

You're right [Mith, as far as I know I'm not scrapping with Fea, I just disagree with the reasoning of her vote. Or rather, I think its real reasoning is exhaustion, which means it's sort of lost sight of Slaying Enemies...

Oh I only meant her correction of Earendilion genealogy. I am so not with it I have refreshed the previous page about 5 times thinking that it had gone all quiet.... living or dead I am voting early in future....but in a bit of a dilemma what to do is it a bandwagon if you vote for someone with better reason than the person who cast the original vote..?

[Glirdan]

Okay, I'm making my vote now

++Lommy

Out of all the candidates up there, I would rather see either her or Manwe go. Out of the two, I choose Lommy for my reasons stated in my analysis post #145 of her. To do a quick recap: don't like here wishy-washy feeling, don't like her vote. Most of her posts have been banterish, time for that was long gone when she voted.

[Nerwen]

I'm kind of leery of Nog's 3 votes, because usually he's a tough nut to lynch early on. And really I'm not even aware, to steal words from Glirdan, "adamantly" went after Nog and to steal words from Legate launched a "crusade" against pessimism.

What I said was an instant reaction I had regarding Nog's post. Then Agan said if Nog had continued the banter, I'd probably say he wasn't being the normal Nog, so I explained more. Those two seem to be making too much out of my suspicions. They were serious suspicions and feelings about Nog, but I wasn't aware I was aggressively attacking him?

And buggers, I'm missing a new episode of The Tudors. In my heart of hearts, dramatic history beats WW, even with such excellent and more admirable company.

So...

++Legate
You know, we do have this little custom of explaining why we vote someone, Boro.

EDIT:X'd since Boro.

[Anguirel]

I'm pleased with this particular alternative to lynching Nogrod, Manwe - pretty much the one I was after. I am struck by the actual paucity of evidence against him but that's pretty hard to avoid right now.

I suppse this is where the "useful ghost" argument does attract some currency - given I've seen Nogrod is more vocal and detailed, and I've no damning suspicion on either him or Manwe, why shouldn't I prefer him in Mandos? The answer is shoddy, negative, and pusillanimous but I will admit it. The Shasta - Nogrod affair looked way too familiar for comfort.

(It's just occurred to me, in that unsettling suddden way that these things do, that if they're both wolves, well, they're doing well)

In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod. Have we been faced immediately with the classic dichotomy: a useful ghost or a lurking wolf? If so I have to stick to my stated tack, by choosing the latter.

++ MANWE

(also the Feanorian in me smirks at the idea of lynching one who bears the name of that smug Vala!)

[Nerwen]

So, it's Manwe and Nog tied at 3 votes each?

[Nerwen]

Okay, then, that simplifies things–

++Manwe.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen
Lottie ++ Manwe (2)
Boro ++ Legate (2)
Glirdan ++ Lommy (2)
Ang ++ Manwe (3)
Nerwen ++ Manwe (4)
(also the Feanorian in me smirks at the idea of lynching one who bears the name of that smug Vala!)
Ha ha ha! That's almost enough to win me over! :D

(EDIT: x-post Nerwen, adding in her vote)

[the phantom]

Who is still left to vote?

[Mithalwen]

Suppose in the cause of residual sanity shouldn't risk a threeway tie and vote for the rather shifty Legate - especially since the other 2 voted flimsily..gah..jus tnoticed that Lommy has made very few posts. Has she had a personality change since I last played? Is that the new normal?

[Glirdan]

Left to vote:

phantom
Mith
Wilwa
BG
Sally

[the phantom]

I still want to kill Lommy if we have the votes to do it.

[Anguirel]

A threeway tie would have the advantage of bringing out the flawless patented Anguirel-Aganzir plan, but the second of those inventors thinks its suicide and the first one just thinks it would be very funny...

[the phantom]

No triple lynch please, as Nog is one of the few I feel I have a bead on at this point.

[Mithalwen]

++Legate of Amon Lanc

[the phantom]

Bleh... Not sure what to do here.... What are you doing, Mith? You know my feelings quite well.

[Anguirel]

Just as you please, lord phantom...isn't that a beautiful full moon? Tilion at his finest, eh...?

[Mithalwen]

Lommy did say she had a busy day and I don'tlike his trumped up "case" against me. Nothing better to go with for today.

[the phantom]

++Manwe

(PS Mith.... grrrrr.....)

[Rikae]

After a long day of discussion, most of which centered on whether a fit burial for the horses would include sage or rosemary, the group got down to the nasty business of trying to eliminate one of the possessed among
them.

For a while, it seemed as though Nogrod and Mänwe would both have the honor of going first to Mandos, but Nerwen cast her vote for the latter "to simplify things", and Phantom agreed.

The elves circled around the Mänwe, swords glinting in the setting sun...

And nope, not gonna tell you his role. :P

The living:

Shasta
Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:
Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe

Shh, Mith! It is now Night 2. People who have stuff to do, do stuff.

[Mithalwen]

Bleh... Not sure what to do here.... What are you doing, Mith? You know my feelings quite well.

Yes And I considered going with them, but to go against conscience is neither right nor safe..

[Rikae]

Dawn brought no particularly interesting revelation to the miserable elven host: as expected, one of their number had been brutally mauled, his innards draped around the camp like holiday garlands (if holiday garlands existed at the time), his head missing - it was found, later, in a nearby stream - and his bizarre clothing strewn about, torn, and covered with wolf hair. He was barely recognizable as Shasta, and certainly no one could tell whether he had been possessed, gifted, or just odd.

The elves dragged what was left of their comrade to the stream and sent it on its way, bowed their heads momentarily in mourning, and then set about the business of killing someone else.

The living:

Nogrod
Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
Blind Guardian
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:
Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shasta

Day 2 has begun. You may post.

[elronds_daughter]

Oh dear, oh dear. Poor Shasta.

I still don't know quite what to make of yesterDay. Manwe's been killed, for reasons beyond me. That whole Shasta vs. Nog thing was troublesome, and probably why Shasta got dead. Makes me worry about Nog. And phantom is a bother at the back of my brain. Something seems off about him, despite his sense-making. Or maybe that's just him. So many people in this game that I haven't played with before...this makes for an uncomfortable lack of predictability.

Arghh. This is so much shorter than I originally intended. I meant to go back through everything and look an analyze a bit...but that requires logic, which requires sleep. Which I think I shall do now. Back eventually...do be productive while I'm gone, will you? :D

[the phantom]

Well, too bad. I can only assume the kill was due to Shasta appearing to be innocent to several people? And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.

That would be just ridiculous, requiring us to believe that as a Seer Shasta would've acted the way he did upon finding a guilty Nogrod, which makes no sense at all given the set-up of this game. There are far too many of us that know Shasta to fall for that, and I can't see any way that the baddies would think that would fly.

So basically I think he was killed because he looked innocent and there was an off chance he was a Lover or Glorfy. Because really would there be any clues to that? Why would there be?

Commentary on yesterday to come....

(x-post Daughter)

[the phantom]

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

(That's NOT a shot at Shasta's honor! Just a thought that I had earlier today.)

[the phantom]

First, some thoughts I jotted down during my reread of yesterday.

The following were definitely doing some gameplay yesterday (if you know what I mean)-
Anguirel
Nogrod
Boromir

At this time I'm leaning solidly towards Ang and Nog as good-guys and Boro as a baddie.

In general the other players seemed to be doing less purposeful manipulation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get vibes from them.

In my readthrough I didn't feel so bad about that lynch from yesterday, but I guess maybe we'll learn about that soon enough. Fea is good. So is Shasta (but that's rather an obvious conclusion now). I don't feel good about Mith, and possibly Nessa, but I don't have experience with her so I'm not certain. I still don't like Lommy, and possibly Greenie, but my feeling on her is somewhat based upon Lommy.

I'm very very curious about Agan. She seems to be extremely locked in, and yet it didn't seem to me that she was invested in the game. Sort of like a robot playing, you know? I never felt for a second she was up to anything at all good or bad. It was weird. Has anyone ever seen her like that?

Other people I'm mostly undecided on. And now I'm going to do a vote analysis and see if anyone looks good or bad based upon that.

[Glirdan]

Just a fun fact- if I were the Wolves I would've just killed the people I thought were most likely to peek at the Dead Thread, as that would be the most obvious way the Goodies could gain a nice upper hand in this thread. Yeah- I'm not very trusting.

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????

To be honest, I'm kind of quite surprised by yesterDay's lynch. Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

I will be around for a little while longer, but then have to go to bed as I work in the morning.

[the phantom]

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen
Lottie ++ Manwe (2)
Boro ++ Legate (2)
Glirdan ++ Lommy (2)
Ang ++ Manwe (3)
Nerwen ++ Manwe (4)
Mith ++ Legate (3)
Phantom ++ Manwe (5)

Well, that's yesterday's voting. Given the fact that we do not know Manwe's affiliation, it's extremely difficult to speculate. If he's evil than obviously Nerwen and Ang look quite good. If he's innocent and Nog, Legate, or Lommy is guilty, then Nerwen and Ang don't look good. If none of the lead candidates were Wolves then votes could be hidden anywhere.

Meh. I don't like not knowing roles after death. Makes things difficult.

[Mithalwen]

I don't feel good about Mith.

Why becasue I wouldn't do what you told me to? Well if that is the case get used to it. Few things annoy me more in this context is being told how to vote especially if they haven't committed themselves. Don't trust you enough yet to let myself be so maniputlated so get used to not feeling good or put your money where your mouth is. Don't seee how your feeling constitutes evidence unles we are doing divination by the examination of entrails and there are enough of those around already. Grr yourself.

[the phantom]

Are you hinting something about yourself phantom????
Ha ha, no, I haven't read the Dead Thread. By habit I clicked on it when Rikae first put it up, but I stopped reading immediately when I read the opening lines, which said something along the lines of "If you're alive stop reading now!"

In talking before the game I mentioned that it would be a great temptation for me given that I would feel certain that other people were reading it and thus gaining an advantage against me, but I gave my word not to read it, and so I won't. :)
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle.
I don't follow your point. The Wolves knew Shasta wasn't a Wolf, and that's all they can know. What I'm saying is that they'd have no reason whatsoever to assume he was the Seer that spotted an evil Nog, because given this game set up do you think for a minute that he would've behaved so had that been the case? They killed him for some other reason. Now, you might perhaps say that it might've entered into their minds, "Ooo, maybe the village will go for Nog as a side-effect", but I doubt that they'd be that deluded.

[Nerwen]

:(:(:( First Dobbin and now– my priceless treasure! Why?

Manwe was an all too easy bandwaggon lynch and was lynched with no reason other then his bantering....well, from what I remember anyways, I'll have to go back and read his posts and the ones concerning him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom
And before anyone even goes there, it doesn't make Nog look bad and I don't even think the baddies intended the kill as a frame-up.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.
Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

EDIT:X'd with phantom.

[the phantom]

My "grrr" at you Mith and my bad feeling about you is due to the fact that you waited so long to vote for reasons unknown, and up until then you had given little indication as to which way you were going. If you were purposefully trying to cause an accidental multiple lynch that's precisely the way to get it done.

I was extremely irritated because as the deadline ticked closer I was getting very worried that you'd force me to miss the deadline or cross-vote with you and another person who hadn't voted yet and cause a massive pile-up.

You don't have to vote the way I want you to. I don't care- go your own way. That's fine. But when we're in the final minutes and you're not telling me who you won't vote for and who you might vote for I sort of assume that you're hoping for a crash.

[Glirdan]

I don't follow your point. The Wolves knew Shasta wasn't a Wolf, and that's all they can know. What I'm saying is that they'd have no reason whatsoever to assume he was the Seer that spotted an evil Nog, because given this game set up do you think for a minute that he would've behaved so had that been the case? They killed him for some other reason. Now, you might perhaps say that it might've entered into their minds, "Ooo, maybe the village will go for Nog as a side-effect", but I doubt that they'd be that deluded.

Okay, I now understand what you're saying as well and agree that he was killed for some other reason and I tend to agree with you about the Wolves being deluded for the Nog set up. I wasn't following at first, and now I'm on the same train.

EDIT: Bed time folks, be back some time later in the Day.

[the phantom]

No one else around, I guess.

I've waited long enough. Bed.

[Loslote]

As we don't have as much hard facts here, I'm going to sort this list by "gut feelings" with some explainations following.

White as Snow:
Lottie

Ivory like a Walrus Tooth:
Glirdy (I can usually tell when he's a wolf, and he doesn't seem evil this game.)
Mith (I haven't played with her before, I don't think, but she doesn't ring alarming bells...)
Agan (I seriously considered putting her in Grey, but decided at the last moment that she fits here as well as anywhere. Again, based on tone of post alone.)
Greenie (She seems like normal Greenie. For now, I'll leave her be.)
Nerwen (She makes good points, and while I know she's a wicked wolfie, I'm inclinded to keep a wary eye on her but focus more on others.)
Fea (What I've seen of her looks all clever and helpful)

Grey like Winnie-the-Pooh Impersonating a Storm Cloud (Confusing):
Nog (I can seriously never read him.)
tp (He's tp; he sort of goes in the "no clue" category by default.)
Ang (Never played with him, and I'll wait a bit more to get a better grasp on his playing style before trying to gather impressions.)
Legate (Didn't really attract my attention much one way or another.)

Silent as a Hobbit Who's Had A Bit Too Much Ale And Has Passed Out (Subby):
BeiGei (Has she even posted?)
Wilwa (Not around enough yet.)
Nessa (Short, scarse posts = no read)
Elronhubbard (Not enough posts to form an opinion.)
Sally (Did she have just the one post? I can't remember any others.)

Dark as a Certain Pair of Black High Heels:
Lommy (Her early vote on Manwe confuses me, and her tone strikes me as off...not entirely sure why, and hardly convinced of anything, but not comfortable with her, either.)
Boro (Sets off alarms in a no-real-substance sort of way.)

So, yeah, I'd like to see more out of my Grey, Silent, and Dark people, and the Ivory people I'm (temporarily) okay with and not going to vote for.

[Mithalwen]

You don't have to vote the way I want you to. I don't care- go your own way. That's fine. But when we're in the final minutes and you're not telling me who you won't vote for and who you might vote for I sort of assume that you're hoping for a crash.

Right llets get a few things straight. Your vote is your own responsibility. Mine is mine. I didn't notice in all the blessed rules you have felt the need to create for yourself that votes had to be notified to some self appointed vote monitor.

I didn't say because you know what I hadn't decided. I had hoped to vote earlier but you know what Day one, desperately unclear, no one obliging enough to confess to lycanthropy. So I thought I'd try to stay up a bit but I fell asleep. So lynch me for being tired. Then I had very little time.

So I had wanted to vote Legate - well because he was saying things that basically were not true on empirical evidence about me and that and the lists made me very suspicious. But he had one and then 2 votes with slim reason and there was a danger of a 3 way lynch if I went ahead. I think I posted to that effect but I haven't been back yet to check. So since I had a vague memory of you behaving in this dictatorial manner another time when you were innocent so I took a quick look at Lommie to see if there was anything that justified it. The only thing that seemed really odd was the fact she had made so few posts but she had notified that this was likely. So benefit of the doubt. By that point MAnwe was out in front and I thought it ok to go with my own choice. Frankly I can't think of anything more wolvish than to vote for someone because you have been told to.

Whatever... I am so remembering why I haven't played for so long.

[Aganzir]

So Glirdan what did you think to achieve when comparing Shasta's behaviour to his seer self?

She seems to be extremely locked in, and yet it didn't seem to me that she was invested in the game.
I see what you mean but I think it might be because I've never been alone while playing - yesterday I had people over (and now I'm posting while my friends are sleeping) so half my mind is always somewhere else.

I don't particularly like the Mänwagon. There weren't very good points against him - stressing the significance of his "trying to escalate Shasta & Nog's fight" was rather making a mountain out of a molehill, I think. At least Lommy and Nog had been suspected (of cobblery), so I think it'd make more sense for a wolf/cobbler not to vote for them, just to be on the safe side - unless Mänwe was a wolf.

At the moment I'm inclined to say one of Lommy and Greenie is a baddie. Lommy was looking cobblerish, but it was actually only after Greenie pointed it out that peoples started suspecting her. The problem with Greenie is, she's being too nice to me. She questioned me a bit but dropped it quickly and said she's okay with me. Usually when we're both innocent this bickering continues for a few days after which we basically trust each other. But now she seems different - you know, accusing me just for the sake of doing it and stopping it before I retaliate.

First Dobbin and now– my priceless treasure! Why?
Don't forget your Lúthien. I think these baddies are trying to frame Nerwen... ;)

[Boromir88]

You know, we do have this little custom of explaining why we vote someone, Boro.


Thought I made that more clear, but I didn't bold Legate in that post, so it might have been harder to notice.

I was suspicious of Glirdan and Legate for the same reasons. I thought they were taking what I said and trying to make it a mountain out of a molehill, by using aggressive language. Even if Glirdan admitted "attack" was too strong, he still made it look like I was vigorously trying to get Nog lynched, which I wasn't at all. Nog was my biggest suspect, but it was early and all I had was the pessimism and instructions to the gifted was minorly annoying. Legate then I believe called it a "crusade against pessimism."

I think it's important to keep the voting close, in a game like this, that way the DL voters have to make choices and (hopefully) state their choices. A 4th vote for Nog would have really separated him from the rest, Glirdan didn't have a vote, Legate had 1, chose Legate. And now we can see what the DL voters thought about Nog, Manwe, and Legate. I don't know how helpful it really is, not knowing anyone's role, but maybe it'll give me something.

I believe the color-coded Alert system is out-dated and needs to disappear. Everyone needs to change the system to...

Koala
Shark-infested waters
Swarm of killer bees
Komodo dragon
Godzilla

A bit later, after my full read through, I'll delegate all players into the new danger alert system.

Edit: correcting typo of "killer beers" to "killer bees"

[Glirdan]

So Glirdan what did you think to achieve when comparing Shasta's behaviour to his seer self?

Sorry, what?? :confused: It's 7am here, I literally just woke up and will need a little more then that.

Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

I am ready to do so. Like Agan, I believe that the "fight" between Shasta and Nog that he was "trying to escalate" was an all to easy reason to put the blame on an easy target, who already had two (again, very poorly reasoned) votes, that a Wolf wanted to see gone, and I would not be surprised if one of the later voters out of the five was a Wolf. However, this does not put the two early voters against him in the clear either.

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die. He could have just as easily voted Legate or Nog to bring it to a double lynch, but instead voted for Manwe. Now, he could be an innocent who didn't want to see Nog or Legate go (I recall him saying he rather wanted to keep them around), or a very clever Cobbler or Wolf masking his vote in that way to keep suspicion off of himself. What really gets me about him was that he was adamant on voting for Lommy and then turned around and voted Manwe. Granted, he said he wouldn't have minded seeing Manwe lynched, but I would still like and explanation from him.

[Anguirel]

Mith and phantom, you're locked in what looks to me like a "tone of voice" hang up. phantom, you didn't pick up she was actually annoyed and so you had to poke the lair of Draugluin a bit more. You used quite strong words yourself, said you were annoyed at having to stay up and look out for Mith's unpredictability, and you weren't that annoyed, really, were you? Just mildly surprised at not having absolute power and desirous of going to bed? I mean, that's how I feel all the time, basically, and especially at 4 o'clock in the morning. You really have to give us Britaynes some allowances near the deadline. We aren't exactly thinking and writing with Ciceronian exactitude. We're more like crack fiends.

I feel the squabble is basically avoidable. Mith, you shouldn't take what the phantom says in lordly mode as any form of real personal attack. I really don't think he can help it. I've never seen him play humble - even as a tactic.

I haven't cleared either of you, by the way, but I must say you both sound completely typical. It is, though, an attribute of the phantom to sound reasonable and of Mith to sound innocent.

***

I really wish I was dead. I mean, I have a hangover, but I'm talking in werewolf terms. It is so frustrating looking at that gleaming untouched thread and knowing it has some answers in it. I mean, I expect more than the on-the-face content lurks in the world of the dead. I was reared in the Werewolf academy of Fea and Diamond. When I die, I expect there to a Crazy Twist. Something like:

"You are actually a Son of Feanor and have the combined special powers of the entire Tol-in-Gaurhoth Grimoire. On the other hand, there are actually ten werewolves."

Even that apart, the existence of Mandos is tantalisingly enigmatic. I'm not a person given to overly metaphysical situation. I worship the pagan gods and doubt they'll grant me an afterlife in a hurry. Suddenly I know what it means to be a religious thinker, a philosopher, whatever. Obsessed by the question of what happens when you die...

Okay. Manwe. I suppose I cast the vote that was instrumental in killing him, and by that token saved Nogrod and Lommy. I was aware of casting a highly, almost suspiciously significant vote when I did it. But I'd stayed up late and I really wanted to do something that would matter, with that usual unfortunate qualifier, 'for good or ill'. Certainly I voted him not because I suspected him strongly, but I suspected the others less. He was probably the most uncontroversial candidate for hanging on offer.

I regard Shasta as more likely to be an Innocent than a Cobbler. But I should reread to check if that's more than gut.

[Anguirel]

I see two recent uses of a phrase I hate, "making a mountain out of molehill." I fear it'll be used again. We are on Ard-Galen, a very flat area, and moles are presumably in more plentiful supply than mountains.

[Aganzir]

I think it's important to keep the voting close, in a game like this, that way the DL voters have to make choices and (hopefully) state their choices.
And that way the whole six baddies we have can easily steer the lynch? :Merisu:

Swarm of killer beers
Are you sure you didn't mistype this? ;)

Sorry, what??
You said you once suspected Shasta for behaving the same way as yesterday and he was the seer. Now he's dead.
I kind of doubt Glirdy is a wolf, it would have been rather bold to say that (and risk a ranger intervention) and then kill Shasta, but cobbler isn't out of the question. I'm not particularly suspecting him at the moment (his tone feels genuine and I'd have to go through his posts first) though.

Hmm I might go through the voting now just to see people's reasons. edit: No I won't, almost everybody is awake now so I'm going to have breakfast!

[Glirdan]

So Glirdan what did you think to achieve when comparing Shasta's behaviour to his seer self?

You said you once suspected Shasta for behaving the same way as yesterday and he was the seer. Now he's dead.

Okay, that makes more sense now, thanks. :) Now what did I think to acheive?? Nothing more then say I think he's innocent., which the Wolves confirmed.....or, at least confirmed he wasn't a Wolf as there is still the chance that he was a Cobbler, but the tone of his posts yesterDay did not seem Cobblerish to me.

[Anguirel]

Agan, our names, shortened, are too similar. One of us must die.

[Glirdan]

Agan, our names, shortened, are too similar. One of us must die.

I know, I'll start calling you Topins. Just because I want to call someone Topins. :Merisu:

[Anguirel]

-+GLIRDAN

Just you try and it'll be two crosses...

[Glirdan]

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of his funny bone. :p Anyways, I must depart for work shortly and after that I have rehearsal. You won't hear anything from me until roughly two hours before DL and when I come back, it will be a very, VERY fast read through and vote.

[Aganzir]

Now what did I think to acheive?? Nothing more then say I think he's innocent., which the Wolves confirmed.....
If someone reminds you of a gifted, you just don't usually say it...

Agan, our names, shortened, are too similar. One of us must die.
Well it was you who brought it up, so... :p

By the way Rikae do we have retractable votes? :Merisu: (Sorry if I've missed it.)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen
Hmmn. We know even less about Manwe's role and yet you're quite ready to call him an "easy bandwaggon lynch". Do you see the contradiction?

I am ready to do so. Like Agan, I believe that the "fight" between Shasta and Nog that he was "trying to escalate" was an all to easy reason to put the blame on an easy target, who already had two (again, very poorly reasoned) votes, that a Wolf wanted to see gone, and I would not be surprised if one of the later voters out of the five was a Wolf.
Well, speaking for myself I was only interested in breaking the tie with Nog– out of the two of them I thought Manwe looked worse. And I don't see why the wolves would have been interested in getting rid of Manwe in particular, anyway.

Even that apart, the existence of Mandos is tantalisingly enigmatic. I'm not a person given to overly metaphysical situation. I worship the pagan gods and doubt they'll grant me an afterlife in a hurry. Suddenly I know what it means to be a religious thinker, a philosopher, whatever. Obsessed by the question of what happens when you die...
You talk a lot with your fellow-dead, apparently– there's eighteen replies on the Mandos thread now. It seems Manwe and Shasta have had much to discuss. (Duelling, perhaps?:Merisu:)

EDIT:X'd with Agan.

[Boromir88]

And that way the whole six baddies we have can easily steer the lynch? :Merisu:

You assume that all wolf-packs and their cobbler allies are as masterfully co-ordinated as your pack in the Haunting of Bree. So, unless you're a wolf most packs throw caution to the wind with voting, aside from sticking to general guidelines, as to appear less co-ordinated and not in the pack-like mentality.


Are you sure you didn't mistype this? ;)


Hahaha, corrected. :p

[Rikae]

There are no retractable votes.

[Aganzir]

You assume that all wolf-packs and their cobbler allies are as masterfully co-ordinated as your pack in the Haunting of Bree.
No I don't. But even though the six of them can't communicate, it doesn't change the fact that there are awfully many of them and if we keep the voting even on purpose, it's much easier for them to lynch the one they want (ie. the most innocent-looking, or the player who's the most dangerous to the wolves, etc.). I'm definitely not saying we should just bandwagon, but I don't like the suggestion that one person shouldn't have many more votes than the others.

And I don't see why the wolves would have been interested in getting rid of Manwe in particular, anyway.
Not interested in getting rid of Mänwe so much as saving a potential cobbler or two.

There are no retractable votes.
Okay thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, a few notes straightaway:
Oh dear, oh dear. Poor Shasta.
This brought me to think of a few things. First, this sounds false (we know this stuff). But also second, it just occured to me that reactions of people towards deaths and such might be a lot more important in this game than normally. I mean (and now of course I am not speaking anymore about the above quote, since it is about a Nightly death - I am speaking about a thing which occured to me when thinking about it, related to lynches), we don't have the knowledge of what is somebody's role when somebody was lynched, but we can see also people's reactions to it. And, say, from a reaction of a person whose role is revealed later, we can discover his/her relation to some other deceased ones in this way. It's sort of random, but I still think good to note.

Otherwise... as for Mänwe's lynch: I am pretty much convinced that he was innocent. Reasons: WWs would prevent a lynch of a Wolf on Day 1, most likely, unless everybody else going for lynch were Wolves too. In general, it is just more likely that Mänwe was innocent. Secondly, this happens to him all the time. Again. He is just an easy victim and I know it - I have lynched him myself in my very first game. Intentionally, mind you. So honestly, now I think he is innocent too - because he's really just one of the easiest victims. Whoever voted for Mänwe gets my immediate suspicion. Honestly. That'd be Lommy, Lottie, Ang, Nerwen and TP himself (the latter with a bit of questionmark, as it was sort of "past". But it is also telling that among those there are people who are somewhat questionable or who have been behaving a bit suspiciously yesterDay, like namely Lommy or Lottie. Ang surprises me there a bit, as he seemed like behaving reasonably yesterDay, same goes for Nerwen. In any case: I am surprised if there is not one, or even more WWs among the bandwagon. Might be rather silly start for them, but I am pretty sure now at least one is there.

Aside from that, I am still suspicious about Nog from yesterDay, and have to look at him more.

I was suspicious of Glirdan and Legate for the same reasons. I thought they were taking what I said and trying to make it a mountain out of a molehill, by using aggressive language. Even if Glirdan admitted "attack" was too strong, he still made it look like I was vigorously trying to get Nog lynched, which I wasn't at all. Nog was my biggest suspect, but it was early and all I had was the pessimism and instructions to the gifted was minorly annoying. Legate then I believe called it a "crusade against pessimism."
I am not sure what seems "aggressive" to you, but I was simply stating the fact. You behaved like a crusader against pessimism, and I agree, it was only very little you had and such. That's of course normal, it was only first Day. No problem with that. But in that little you had, you behaved like crusader against pessimism. I'm saying it from the same perspective as you say you had only pessimism. "All you had was pessimism and instructions to the gifted," and all I had was your objections against pessimism. Simple as that.

Glirdy seems posting and active, fine. Ang looks like self-appointed settler of conflict, but yea, I approve at least of the general part - whether it might serve him good also for other reasons is another thing, but that surely can be checked better in his behavior in the future. So far, giving good vibes. Lottie, aside from what I have said before, looks incredibly false and her list as well. Especially these merry names smell of Cobbler. Or worse (?)

Who seems a bit worse to me now than yesterDay is actually also Mr. P Himself. I don't have anything against his self-centered behavior, that is something we all should be used to by now, but I don't like his subtle defense of Nogrod. Also, I am interested in where do his spinnings spin forwards to - I mean now the sort of starting suspicions or questions (about Agan, Boro...?), it's just that I am curious what will become of them, like for instance, what he bases the suspicion of Agan on. Well, simply - watching.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan

[Boromir88]

Koalas

Greenie - She's the honorable werewolf sort, who sticks to her principles no matter her alignment. Feeling quite good about her, and it's good to have a principled person around. I'm not even getting that "I like Greenie, but I'd really like to hear more from her to be sure" feeling that I normally get.

Nerwen - Not going to trust her as far as her suspects right now, but she looks on top-Nerwen form right now. Not letting anything slip by unnoticed and stirring the conversation.

sally - Someone I would like to see more from, but the one post looks good. Some banter, but some good comments about Lottie's behavior up to that point.

Agan - I would like to see more, she doesn't seem as controversial as usual, as

Fea - I considered sticking her in shark-infested waters because that would just amuse me, but she's definitely being a koala up to this point.

Shark infested waters

Wilwa - If she posted, she'd probably be a koala. However no posts as of yet, you go to the sharks.

Blind - What I said about wilwa applies to BG.

Nessa - I found the reasons for voting Legate odd. But think it can also be an ordo in an unfamiliar situation trying and thinking about how to best use her vote and how it applies to the Dead thread. If that makes any sense, basically...Nessa seems impressionable, but the good sort.

El - her few posts so far, the tone looks good. She offers honest opinions, even in disagreements. Only thing is, don't worry about it being your third game now. It looks like you're trying to appear like you have not gotten the hang of things, when really you've got a good grasp. So, somebody I'm watching now, but the posts don't look fake.

Anguirel - makes me a little nervous for how long it's been since we last played. Also, he is putting himself right into the thick of the action, which means he's up to something. Although, like me, Ang is always up to something, question is for good or evil? For the time being, out of those in the middle of the action, I'm feeling most comfortable with Ang. Particularly after his moderating between phantom and Mith (although for myself, I'm suspecting both much more because of that, which I will get to in a moment).

Lommy - She's always unsure of herself, but so far she's not looking "unsure" it's getting to the looking paranoid point. Bring back the other Lommy please, who was unsure, yet at the same time grounded and gave me stability. I've attributed the only thing that she had been sure of, the bororadar, has gone brokey recently. But until I see more, I'm not going to write that off as the cause.

Swarm of killer bees

Lottie - I'm seeing what sally was saying about the Lottie causing chaos of the not-good variety. The phangirl (yup had to go there) obediance thing is getting old too.

phantom and Mith - Combined because I'm beginning to see one person up to no good between to the two. Phantom looks slightly worse as the provoker, and he would know how to get Mith flustered. And Mith looks very tense, and high strung, this has historically been a sign of wolvery or honest annoyance at the perception of being attacked. I've been so far removed from Mith lately, I can't wager a tell. But it wouldn't surprise me if one of them was a wolf.

Legate - I'm waiting to see a response from. I didn't like his choice of crusade in reference to my suspicions on Nogrod. Could just be a personal disagreement I have with using that word more than Legate trying to be evil. But again, will wait for a resonse

Komodo Dragon
Nog
Glirdan

These two fall along similar to the phantom and Mith combo. Although, I'm almost to the point where I'd stake my reputation on at least one of these two is evil. Where phantom and Mith aren't looking cobblery, Nog or Glirdan to me seem like they can either be wolves or cobblers.

Nog didn't address me about my suspicions of him. Notice what he did is say "well if you have a twitter impression, I've got a fb one" (paraphrase). Whatever that means I have no idea. And again instead of addressing me on my suspicions he tries to appeal to the rest of the village that I'm looking bad but he's not willing to get the noose around me yet. Waiting to see if there would be enough support?

Nerwen has asked Glirdan a fair question about what he meant by the Manwe-bandwagon. I'm interested in Glirdan's response, but also, earlier I was not vehemently going after Nog. The above is what it looks like when I go into attack mode. Do you see the difference now Glirdy?

Godzilla

None for the time being.

Edit: crossed since my last post.

[Mithalwen]

I feel the squabble is basically avoidable. Mith, you shouldn't take what the phantom says in lordly mode as any form of real personal attack. I really don't think he can help it. I've never seen him play humble - even as a tactic.

.

Just in full "I will have no man rule over me" mode. I will how ever defer toteh eldest of my order *curtseys*. Rather like the idea of being like a crack fiend... makes a change to being a text book candidate for gall stones...

Well I have been invited out tomorrow which means I shall have to get my act together and not wait til grumpy o'clock. But I still hold with the idea that it is better to lead by example with voting rather than snap around as a cyber sheepdog grumbling that others aren't posting.

Now must have a look and see if the sole known makes any difference at all...

[Boromir88]

I am not sure what seems "aggressive" to you, but I was simply stating the fact. You behaved like a crusader against pessimism, and I agree, it was only very little you had and such. That's of course normal, it was only first Day. No problem with that. But in that little you had, you behaved like crusader against pessimism. I'm saying it from the same perspective as you say you had only pessimism. "All you had was pessimism and instructions to the gifted," and all I had was your objections against pessimism. Simple as that.

To me, crusade/other word forms, carry negative baggage. Don't worry in the fact that I did not take it in anyway personally, but it's a word that can bring up many emotions. I didn't think I was reacting so strongly, and irrationally driven to the destruction of pessimism, which is what I thought of when you used crusader. For me it's a very strong word, and I was wondering what you were attempting to get at by using it, particularly since I didn't think I was being crusaderly at all.

I didn't get the doom and gloom attitude or the "this is going to be a bloody mess" business. For one those are just like bantering-comments. Adds nothing to the convo, and unlike banter (which can at least be amusing to read) are entirely depressing. Add on top of that, the instructions, that really weren't instructions (which Nog naturally had to make a point on that), of what we need to do. The entire attitude looked like "well we're in trouble, because we'll only know 1 and 2 and therefor unless we do this, this is going to be a bloody mess. Oh, but you really don't have to do this of course not, no...just suggestions"

[Boromir88]

Agan - I would like to see more, she doesn't seem as controversial as usual, as

And there's another typo/mistake/error. I was going to say more, but forgot to and now I can't remember what I was going to say after reading Legate's post.

I think it was along the lines of why did she admit I had good points about the situation and after saying Nog said exactly what she was thinking, and then she went and voted for him?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Manwe's been killed, for reasons beyond me.

Here's my thoughts on this set of Day One votes. Noggles, cover your ears; you know we never agree on this stuff. There are obviously the two camps: Day One is important and we need to pay really close attention to it; and Day One is important, but only in retrospect because while it's happening, all the good guys are totally clueless, so their votes are about as reliable as those of the wolves.

In this game, where you don't feel so bad about killing anybody because they still get to play in the Afterlife, votes become even more insignificant. You can kill anybody without worrying that you've totally screwed up everything, because even if you kill the seer, whatever, they can still do stuff.

Here's why I think people (including me) voted for people they didn't really think were wolves: odds were already against us actually nabbing a bad guy on the first day. Particularly since we don't find out if we got one or not, it's a matter of luck to kill anybody naughty. Since we have no way of knowing who we're going after, or what they are, or if they're on our side, the rationale comes down to, "Eh, we might as well just kill whoever, since it's not like they're gone forever anyway."

My vote for Nerwen (yes, Ang was dead on accurate with exhaustion coloring my decisions, as opposed to wolf-slaying) was because I figured if I had bad odds of getting a bad guy, I wasn't going to find out anyway, and I'd rather have a bit of faith of the people making decisions on the Dead Thread. Besides that, there has never been a single time that I've accurately determined her role before it was told to me, so I figured if I killed her when I found her ambiguous, there was a logical (to my mind) chance I was killing a sneaky wolf anyway.

The point in general is that Day One votes meant even less in this game, because there was no reason to feel bad about who we killed, because if we got a good guy, oops but they can still play and do good things, and if we got a bad guy, woo hoo. A lot of shrugging was involved in my decision making. As in, "Eh. Not like it matters."

That being said, now that Day One is over and we have a bit to go on, I don't think anybody (including myself) should make votes with apathy (and curiosity... I mean, I'm curious about the nature of the Dead Thread).

This brings me to:

That whole Shasta vs. Nog thing was troublesome, and probably why Shasta got dead. Makes me worry about Nog.

I agree on the first two. Not so much on the last. Shasta is the only one (or one of the only; too lazy to check my stats) that showed a pronounced attack on anybody. And that person was Nog. So my general idea is either Nog is a wolf and the team thought maybe Shasticle was the Seer, since he was actually showing some initiative and some specific ire... or (and this is the one I lean toward), the wolf team noticed that Shasta was showing pronounced opinions, and that if they killed him, the village would think they killed him because they thought he was the seer.

This translates to, either way, Shasta made himself look most seerish out of anybody else in the village, whether he was one or not. I think the wolves took advantage of his behavior to make us doubt Nog (as if we'd trust him anyway :p) and to make us think we lost our seer early.

I don't know if our seer's alive or not, but I know that Shasta's crankiness made it look like he was seeing the world through informed eyes, one way or another. So basically, I'm not saying the seer (if xe's still alive) should go around declaring ximself or, conversely, hiding all of his information. Just... act rationally.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. After all, we have no role revealment to prove to us that Shasta was a Gifted, Cobbler or Ordo and thus have no idea in knowing where his loyalties were lying when they got into the debacle. For that, I think we should still keep Nog on our radars.

I'm with Glirdums. I think that Shasta's death says nothing about Nog, but says quite a lot about The Wolves. Not that those are mutually exclusive, but the point is that Nog as an independent entity is irrelevant to the conversation.

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die. He could have just as easily voted Legate or Nog to bring it to a double lynch, but instead voted for Manwe. Now, he could be an innocent who didn't want to see Nog or Legate go (I recall him saying he rather wanted to keep them around), or a very clever Cobbler or Wolf masking his vote in that way to keep suspicion off of himself. What really gets me about him was that he was adamant on voting for Lommy and then turned around and voted Manwe.

Uh, just pointing out, phanty doesn't like double lynches unless he's orchestrated them in a dramatic fashion. He *could* have created a double lynch, but if he was a good guy, why would he do that?

"You are actually a Son of Feanor and have the combined special powers of the entire Tol-in-Gaurhoth Grimoire. On the other hand, there are actually ten werewolves."

I've never done that! Though I see your point. However, as a mod, I try very hard to list the existence of my plot twists on the sign up thread. Anyway, irrelevant...

Shower, clothes, coffee, etcetera... I might be a little inactive today since I have to finish my semester plan and get it and a bunch of other work turned in, not to mention revise a story so I can get back to work on sketches... Not that any of you should have to care, but that's just my explanation for why my participation will be irregular toDay.

[Aganzir]

I started this ages ago and have been distracted every now and then, but I'm going to post it nonetheless in case its of any use.

Lommy ++ Manwe:
He's been around and apparently able to talk but all he's said this far is banter. That does not look good in my books, no precious, not at all.
Earlier she said "Only banter this far. Cobbler?" She didn't vote for Nerwen (who was Wolf?) or Lottie (whom she didn't like).
The vote seems quite random and easy in a "I don't want any responsibility for the lynch" kind of way. Lommy has played with Mänwe before and should know bantering doesn't necessarily make him evil.

Legate ++ Nessa:
Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me.
Said Lottie looked cobblerish but he'd rather vote for someone who looked like a wolf. Lommy looked odd but he'd like to see more. Nessa only gave him a ??? feeling.
He could of course have voted for someone he was actually suspicious of, but he said he'll probably go for a submarine. His vote doesn't ring any alarms.

Green ++ Lommy:
since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example).
She went consistently after Lommy since her first post. I find the vote somewhat fishy though. Granted, I see what she means about Lommy but she seems to explain her vote in more length than necessary - no one expects day 1 votes to be fully reasoned.

Shasta ++ Nog:
I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!"
Nog was giving advice to the baddies and defending phantom's (suspicious) actions.
I disagree with his reasons for voting Nog but given how suspicious Nog was, I'm good with his vote.

Agan ++ Nog (2):
(insert a lot of disagreeing with Nog over the day)

Shasta ++ Shasta
phantom... What is this? :p Ahh it's Nog ++ Shasta:
He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.
Earlier he made a list of (quiet) people he'd like to vote for and said he could vote Shasta who was giving him evil vibes but he doesn't want to base his vote on retaliation. Nog always gets more paranoid/aggressive when it's late, but I really think he was trying to put words in Shasta's mouth. I'm not too fond of his vote.

Manwe ++ Green:
A Little Green- three posts before voting, general, casts a number of doubts. backing, moderate or poor.
I'm not sure I would've gone so far as to vote for Greenie based on that (you could basically say it about anybody) but I understand why he might have found her suspicious.

Daughter ++ Nog (3):
Partly because Shasta's overreaction makes him seem innocent. And if Nog's not guilty, then he'll be a helpful ghost.
So either Nog or Shasta had to be a baddie? I have nothing against someone voting for Nog, but this is a very easy vote.

Nessa ++ Legate:
Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.
Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?
So you voted for him because you thought he was innocent?

Fea ++ Nerwen:
Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one.
You think she's going to be useful even though you don't know if she's good or bad?

Lottie ++ Manwe (2):
for his rather worrisome post...
To me it doesn't look like he was trying to make Nog & Shasta's fight worse and Lottie seems to be making way too much of a single comment.

Boro ++ Legate (2):
Those two seem to be making too much out of my suspicions.
That's an alright reason even if I don't agree with him on Legate.

Glirdan ++ Lommy (2):
To do a quick recap: don't like here wishy-washy feeling, don't like her vote. Most of her posts have been banterish, time for that was long gone when she voted.
Understandable.

Ang ++ Manwe (3):
In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod.
Ang tied Mänwe with Nog which led to Mänwe's death. If Nog is a baddie, it makes Ang look bad.

Nerwen ++ Manwe (4):
So, it's Manwe and Nog tied at 3 votes each? Okay, then, that simplifies things–
She didn't really speak of Nog while she agreed Lottie brought up a point against Mänwe.

Mith ++ Legate (3):
Lommy did say she had a busy day and I don't like his trumped up "case" against me. Nothing better to go with for today.
It was a throw away in the sense that it was highly unlikely Legate would've been lynched, but that's okay if she didn't suspect any of the main candidates.

Phantom ++ Manwe (5)
I still want to kill Lommy if we have the votes to do it.
At least he made sure there would be no double lynch...

[wilwarin538]

Okee, I'm going to try to be here at least a little bit today. Right now I'm going to catch up. (6 pages!!! might take a while)

[Aganzir]

I think it was along the lines of why did she admit I had good points about the situation and after saying Nog said exactly what she was thinking, and then she went and voted for him?
Hmm did I say you had good points? I can't remember. :p Seriously though, I have no idea what that whole sentence is supposed to mean.
And even though Nog's first post was good, it went worse and worse after it.

[the phantom]

I'm particularaly interested in phantom's vote actually. He voted last and for Manwe who was already set to die.
That's easy. I wanted to kill Lommy, but at that point it was impossible, so I had to vote for someone else. I wanted to rule out a multi-lynch, so I just boosted the lead of Manwe who was already guaranteed to die. Why put Legate or Nog under threat with my vote when I suspected neither of them? The death of one person you haven't particularly suspected is much better than the double-lynching of two people you don't suspect.
I don't have anything against his self-centered behavior, that is something we all should be used to by now, but I don't like his subtle defense of Nogrod.
I didn't realize it was "subtle". It was meant to be bash-over-the-head obvious. Shasta and Nog were the two I felt the best about by the end of yesterday. Seeing one of them die during the night was bad enough, and I'm sure as heck not going to allow the other to be taken down at the same time. If the Wolves intended it to be the case then it means that they are counting on us not thinking things through clearly (I've already explained why the set-up doesn't make sense logically).

Basically I'm taking the kill somewhat personally. Why Shasta? He didn't look more like Glorfy or a Lover than anyone else (which is the most logical reason to kill him), so why him? And if not for that reason, the only other reason was to encourage a Nog lynch- a frame-up attempt so juvenile that I feel rather as if my intelligence is being insulted.

Anyway, off to class now. Talk to everyone later.

[wilwarin538]

Ok, my favourite post from Day 1:

I'm completely lost on this entire voting for people to be good to control the dead thread. Umm, am I mistaken in believing we win by lynching wolves in the living thread? I'm sorry I'm just not understanding this logic of filling the dead thread with people we actually think are innocent...? Why are we even planning this? :confused:

1) We win by killing wolves in this life, not by filling the dead place with innocents. Am I foolish in thinking those two things contradict?

2) Simple numbers work out that innocents will control the dead thread. It serves the wolves little good to get lynched, or they lose. Maybe one wolf would start going to work if lynched, but that's not something we should concern ourselves with. And even if Cobblers seek to get themselves killed to work beyond the grave, they don't know who the wolves are.

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

So, let's end this silly "we should think about keeping the control of the dead thread in the hands of the innocents" when the real problem should be, handling the business of this thread...lynch wolves.

Because while reading the posts from yesterDay, this is precisely what I would have said had I been around. Just so everyone has an idea of what my contribution would have been. I also think I would perhaps have voted for Legate, because as I was reading I was getting bad vibes, and vibes are usually the basis of my Day 1 votes (that doesn't mean I necessarily suspect him, I just know that my Day 1 votes are usually lame and based on flimsy reasoning, and he is probably who I would have gone for).

Alrighty. So not much can be taken from Manwe's lynch, because we have no idea what he is. We can still suspect/trust people based on their votes (all votes, not just those for Manwe), but not in the usual way. Usually we can say "X voted for Y, who we now know is innocent, so...", but now it's more based on why they voted for people, so if they gave good reasoning, or if it seemed random, and so on. It's an interesting situation, cause now someone can look bad to us because of how they voted, but for all we know they actually voted a wolf (which would make them look awesome), but we don't have that knowledge. It's all just so crazy.

Shasta's death is interesting. I think it makes Glirdy look not like a wolf, because of that whole "Shasta's acting the way he did last time he was a seer". I greatly dislike this comment, and would be suspecting Glirdy fervently right now, if it wasn't for the fact that Shasta is now dead. It would be a super awful idea for a Glirdywolf to kill a person who he openly suspected to be a Seer. However, I think he could be a Cobbler, who was trying to hint to the wolves. Or Shasta's death is totally unrelated to Glirdy's comment, and more related to the fact that people seemed to like him a lot (though this doesn't exclude the possibility of Glirdy being a Cobbler, he could still have meant to hint at the Wolves but the Wolves just killed Shasta for a totally different reason).

And I need to go order some pizza. I should be back in a bit, perhaps with a list. Then I need to go to work, but will be on for about the last 3 hours of the Day.

[Nogrod]

Just finished reading. A few comments now, more later in the evening.

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.

Which brings to me to the next issue: we should actually look more carefully to any saving-attempts in this game. Now people save others form lynching also because they think that one is less suspicious (or downright trustworthy - or anything in between), but especially if we find out a pattern it might be significant.


About Shasta then. I don't see why Fea thinks he looked seerish. To me he looked first bantering only, then calculatively evil - and then he overreacted his agitation in a grand scale. Back then he felt like a caught-up wolf to me. Later (today) I started thinking he could have been one of the lovers or the ranger... That might explain his suddenly strong reaction (and seeing Shasta dead points to the wolves thinking along the same lines to me).

But the problem is, even that doesn't make sense. Had there been a general "let's lynch Shasta" -wagon developing with every other player saying how he is suspicious (like there clearly was a let's lynch Nog -wagon back then), it would have been a bit more understandable. But there wasn't any Shasta wagon.

And I do doubt that somone with Shasta's experience would just go crazy about that kind of one suspicion on him (mine, that is), especially if he was a gifted as that woud be like calling the wolves to meet him during the Night - just to take the most promising choice.



Boro: I'm a bit at loss as to what is your question to me. I have two guesses though.

Firstly, being an optimist or a pessimist isn't a wolf-trait or an inocence-trait - and being optimist or pessimist wasn't the point of my first post. Saying we have "a bloody mess" was just my general feeling of the situation (I don't know how that sounds in your ears, but in my ears as a non-native speaker it sounds more like a bit funny way of expressing the exceptionally challenging nature of our situation). So I'm failing to see what is suspicious in it - and find someone trying tob make that look suspicious himself (there's the fb-impression of you: unlike you on me, I had a good reason to suspect you).

"Giving instructions" to the gifteds then... If I find important facets of the game-mechanics which the gifteds & the goodies should be aware of and see no one has brought them up, I think it is my duty to bring them up. Of course I can't tell the seer (or anyone) what to do, but I can ask them to consider. Especially in this case as the suggestion (which I still think is a valuable one) calls for the seer to consider self-sacrifice at some phase of the game - and not on the very last Days - which surely sounds counterintuitive and odd for a normal WW-game. But this is not a normal game.

Add here talking about what the wolves will or may do and why. Like I said already yesterDay, bringing that kind of stuff out in the open sometimes nullifies the possible try-out of that plot (because now we know it), makes it easier for other innocents to spot it (had they not thoguht of it) if wolves decide to go that way, or you can try to divert them into thinking about a ploy which in the last instance is not in their objective interest but actually serves us etc. etc. There are many reasons incents should to do those.


I have to leave now for a while but wil be back with some other issues.


EDIT: x'd with Wilwa

[Aganzir]

the only other reason was to encourage a Nog lynch- a frame-up attempt so juvenile that I feel rather as if my intelligence is being insulted.
In last game, we let Nessa Wolfrunya live even though two or three kills pointed at her, thinking the wolves were just trying to frame her.

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on. In this kind of a game the wolves would save their mate on D1 with no problems.
No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.

and then he overreacted his agitation in a grand scale.
I think you were actually being quite rude to him.

I want to hear more from Nog... I'm still feeling bad about him.

[Thinlómien]

Okay I'm here. I'm currently on a summer cottage with a bunch of friends and we are playing an RPG most of the time. Unfortunately, I happen to be the game master so I don't have much time when I'm not needed, so my time is very limited. I'm going to comment on stuff from yesterDay and toDay, then say if there's something more, then vote and go. I know that's pretty awful for contribution, but I'll be around more on Day3, whichever thread I'll be posting on.

First off, still a few words - I was quite surprised to come here and find Mänwë dead. I know my vote was a bit of a throwaway and I hadn't had much time or evidence to make a better choice. So, it definitely made me raise my eyebrows to find out so many people followed my vote. I have hard time thinking everybody else (including those who voted some six hours later than me) were just as clueless as me and that it's normal they would join such a random bandwagon. Mänwë was suspicious enough to merit one vote, but definitely not a bandwagon. I know this sounds a bit hypocritical coming from me, but I for one would not have given Mänwë a second or third vote on those grounds.

Shasta then. I would need to check his posts to see if he seemed seerish or glorfy or lovery. It's interesting to think about the first option: I think recently people have been ignoring clear aiming-at-the-seer kills and missed valuable information. Nog could be a wolf - I think wolves can be just as ruthless in this game as they want because no one quite knows what to expect of them. On the other hand, it could very well be he was taken for some other reason, or that the wolves are trying to frame Nog. (Which leads to the question: who would want to do this? Is there anyone special? Or would the wolves just generally enjoy the attantion ona loudmouth innocent?) I also think one rather believable explanation for Shasta's death is that he was continuing the eternal lovey-dovey jokes with Nerwen. Now, the lovers might want to be careful this time, but could Shasta and Nerwen resist the temptation, or even consider it a threat given they flirt all the time anyway? And in any case wolves who do not know them too well could have attacked them for that anyway. (This would point at ... Ed? Ang? Mith...?)

Anyway, while you think about that, I'm off to make the huge-y post.


edit: xed with Aggs who is either on the right track or falling victim to a grand wolvish scheme... knowing her it could be either :p

[the phantom]

I do agree with Legate that Mänwe was probably an innocent. Basically because there was no last minute rescue-operation going on.
I don't know about that. Wilwa and Sally were both gone completely it seems (though we didn't know it at the time), and the Manwe votes came fairly late in the order, so really the only people who could've launched a rescue were Mith and I, and honestly even that was out once Nerwen's vote was in. A rescue attempt was extremely likely to end in nothing except a double-lynch. So I'd say all that proves is that Mith, Manwe, and I aren't all packmates, as we would've been sure to send down an innocent with our pal.

And just to see if I'm on your page, Nog, would you agree with me when I say you've been purposefully manipulative this game, in particular attempting to plant a certain idea into the minds of the village that isn't quite truthful but could very well yield a positive result? Because at this time much of my trust of you is based upon what I thought you were trying to do Day 1. Of course it may be foolishness to expect you to deny it given what it gains you, but I do at least hope for honesty.

[the phantom]

Mith and phantom, you're locked in what looks to me like a "tone of voice" hang up. phantom, you didn't pick up she was actually annoyed and so you had to poke the lair of Draugluin a bit more. You used quite strong words yourself, said you were annoyed at having to stay up and look out for Mith's unpredictability, and you weren't that annoyed, really, were you?
Yes, I was annoyed. Not angry at all, nothing strong- just annoyed. It wasn't that I was being held from bed in RL, but in fact I was trying to start on another pressing project and I was getting tired of waiting, and I was also annoyed that there wasn't anyone else around (I was greatly fearing Wilwa running in last minute and casting an unpredictable vote), and annoyed that I didn't know what the one person that was around was going to do. Basically I felt like it was all on me to prevent an impending catastrophe when I really should've been working on something else. (But you're right in your assumption that I wasn't meaning to "poke the sleeping dragon", but just stating my opinion.)

[the phantom]

I really wish I was dead. I mean, I have a hangover, but I'm talking in werewolf terms. It is so frustrating looking at that gleaming untouched thread and knowing it has some answers in it.
Gah, don't say that! It just makes me paranoid. Seriously, I have this gnawing fear that we'll be debating something one day and everyone is sharing opinions that seem oddly formed and I'll just know that I'm the only person who isn't reading the Dead Thread!

[Nogrod]

No. Nog I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Are we really so different, or are you intentionally trying to mislead us?
There were quite few people around at deadline and it's possible none of them was a wolf (although wolves tend to like to stay online till the end if possible), but even if they all were wolves, Mänwe might still have been a cobbler. You're making things sound far simpler than they are.It is perfectly possible no wolf was there at the DL, but as you said there were quite many people (and what you say about wolves' general willingness to make it for the DL) so it seems very probable there were wolves around.

As I very well know my innocence and now feel like Mänwe was an innocent as well, it would mean the top two contenders for lynching in the end of yesterDay were innocents and the wolves were in no panic to make any strong moves. There is a chance that some of the last votes were made to make a double-lynch possible, and a slight chance there could have been a faint attempt to help Mänwe (I think the latter a bit far-fetched, but possible, surely, otherwise I'd say I have strong and explicit reasons to firmly allege that Mänwe was/is innocent :rolleyes:).

Mänwe is a cobbler? Surely. Perfectly possible. If he thought both me and Shasta were innocents that "fueling the flames" -comment that probably got him lynched would look like a cobblery one.

I said innocent, not ordo, or ordinary innocent. Meaning he's not a wolf (whom the others tried to save). I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.


I think you were actually being quite rude to him.I do think it is a perfectly valid and normal way of playing werewolf that you speculate on the motives behind what someone says looking how a wolf-X would have thought and which would have been her/his motives - or how what X said could be said by a wolf-X.

I said he picked me from me and tp because it was the easier pick as I would not be there to defend myself. A perfectly valid point I think as I could see no real difference in the input of what I and the phantom had been talking. And of course we had been the voice of reason there, so him suspecting us from being seriously helpful and making sense felt really wolvish to me. (I must say I was actually quite puzzled as to how tp seemed to think about the same things and in generally the same way - but more of the phantom later as I have now changed my mind on him a bit).

Let's look at your own post Aganzir: you say are you intentionally trying to mislead us?

I don't know if it's a generational, linguistical or whateverical difference that is involved, but to me what I quoted from your post means openly entertaining a possibility that I am intentionally trying to mislead people and thus have bad intentions - which is exactly what my post on Shasta did: it openly entertained a possibility that he made certain convenient choices for a wolf.

I can't see you being able to deny that what you wanted to express by that quoted part was asking others to think that I am intentionlly trying to mislead - and thus think that I'm having bad intentions aka. being a baddie of some sort.

The fact that you used a questionmark doesn't change the substance or the willed effect of the intended message.

Still, I'm not calling you rude or get crazy.

[the phantom]

As far as the "pessimism vs optimism" thing, I frankly didn't see a great deal of the former from Nog at all, but rather he lays things out as they exist with possibilities of success and failure. Boro on the other hand I dislike because his positivity seems like sand-bagging, you know? Making it look as if the deck is stacked against his side in order to make himself feel better no matter what the outcome. Or perhaps he legitimately believes it and is in a round about way complaining. I know from experience that as a baddie it's easy to spot all the ways in which things could go horrifically wrong and it does make one feel rather optimistic on behalf of the village.

[Thinlómien]

Okay I'm splitting this novel to make it more readable...

Actually I disagree. If they manage to kill both Glorfindel and a lover before the seer, there's no one to bring back a word from Mandos.Yes, but it still doesn't change the fact that the seer can reveal while still living, as usual. Now, there will undoubtedly be a counter-reveal given the amount of cobblers in this game (unless they all happen to die before the seer decides to come out, which is possible), but the seer reveal is still a threat to the wolves because although we cannot know if we are doing the right thing or not, we have a 50% chance of lynching a wolf if we lynch somebody whom a seer has named as a wolf. That's why I think the wolves want to kill the seer asap. Also, aiming for Glorfy or lovers is kind of gambling for them: they don't know if they succeeded or not, and they still don't have the seer and there's two of them (1. lovers and 2. glorfy). If they aim for the message birds, with bad luck they leave at least half of them alive and boom! when they finally hit the seer on Night5 or something like that and there's still say glorfy remaining, he can return with info about much more living people than if he returned with the info of a seer who died on Night2 or 3. I wouldn't also be surprised if wolves tried avoiding killing lovers and glorfy for the whole game and thus rendering them rather useless by leaving them for devoruing in the end-game.

It's not the best role for people with an ego... but it's possible.Tell me about it. *remembers a certain video about self as cobbler*

Anyway, I think there is actually something rather awkward about Lommy, her comments don't seem like that of her usual self. She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like.Thanks darling.

To tell you the truth, Lommy is creeping me out at the moment. Wanting to kill phantom and Lottie strikes me as awfully easy - also partly because I'm quite fine with both of them right now. Also, her idea of a Bobbler is pretty far-fetched, but I don't know if it's meant as fully serious or not. And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.1. Tp and Lottie might not seem extra suspicious but they kind of annoy(ed) me. 2. I know it was far-fetched, but worth pointing out. I wouldn't discredit the idea of cobblers trying to pass on information to the wolves via hints. 3. I feel so much like saying: in all seriousness, I'm not a cobbler, but I think that wouldn't help my case. :D

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.
Wait.. The perspective of that last sentence is strange, considering that the topic I believe was innocents uniting in Mandos. Good catch!

Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil.Okay now that was too much! You always suspect me, at least on Day1. Are you intentionally trying to mislead people about this??

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

If the Wolves want to screw things up in Dead-Land, make them flush a kill on a Cobbler.

The obvious drawback is if we adopt this plan and all three Cobblers act Cobblerish and stay alive and, IF we fail to lynch Wolves early on, the Baddies can clinch victory a couple days before they normally could. But really that would assume that every little thing went wrong, yes?

So.... long live the Cobblers?I think you're kind of overestimating the power of cobblers. In a way you're right, we should not make cobblers our prime target. Still, we shouldn't ignore them either. The worst havoc they can do on the dead thread is a false reveal or giving a wolf one extra vote. And false reveals can be just as bad here. So I wouldn't worry too much.

WHERE?
Fea
Leijonien kanssa.Trying to buddy her up, eh?

I don't get why tp is so obsessed about the dead thread. Pardon me for bringing the cobblers up again, but that strikes me as something a phabbler would do: smoothly and subtly try to concentrate the discussion on something rather irrelevant, but not too relevant to raise too many eyebrows.


edit: xed with everyone

[A Little Green]

Some scattered comments.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.This is making me raise my eyebrows a bit, especially the first sentence. I'm not sure about Nog otherwise, I wonder if a Nogwolf would be so aggressive.

I find myself having trouble concentrating anything after being referred to as Bobbler. Nice one Greenie.I'm here to serve. :Merisu:

At the moment I'm inclined to say one of Lommy and Greenie is a baddie. Lommy was looking cobblerish, but it was actually only after Greenie pointed it out that peoples started suspecting her. The problem with Greenie is, she's being too nice to me. She questioned me a bit but dropped it quickly and said she's okay with me. Usually when we're both innocent this bickering continues for a few days after which we basically trust each other. But now she seems different - you know, accusing me just for the sake of doing it and stopping it before I retaliate.I can assure you I'm just as surprised as you are. You've misread me at some point though because I don't think I accused you yesterDay at all. (But if it consoles you, I'm starting to get paranoid about you because I think you're being too nice as well - as in, you haven't annoyed me once! :p)

Edit: correcting typo of "killer beers" to "killer bees"If I could rep you for a typo, I would.

However, I think he could be a Cobbler, who was trying to hint to the wolves. I was thinking the same. What Agan said - it would be odd from an innocent to say someone behaves the same way they did when they were the Seer - but a wolf would have to be very careless or very bold to do that.

Not interested in getting rid of Mänwe so much as saving a potential cobbler or two.You seem awfully sure none of the other lynch candidates was a wolf.

I agree on the first two. Not so much on the last. Shasta is the only one (or one of the only; too lazy to check my stats) that showed a pronounced attack on anybody. And that person was Nog. So my general idea is either Nog is a wolf and the team thought maybe Shasticle was the Seer, since he was actually showing some initiative and some specific ire... or (and this is the one I lean toward), the wolf team noticed that Shasta was showing pronounced opinions, and that if they killed him, the village would think they killed him because they thought he was the seer.I might be totally off with this - too lazy to go back and check - but I got the impression that Shasta was after phantom quite as much as Nog. That would make the scenario of a Shasta-Seer who dreamed Nog quite improbable.

She went consistently after Lommy since her first post. I find the vote somewhat fishy though. Granted, I see what she means about Lommy but she seems to explain her vote in more length than necessary - no one expects day 1 votes to be fully reasoned.Which means they shouldn't be? I could have simply said "see my previous posts for reasons" but since I hate it when others do that I resolved not to do it myself.

And I do doubt that somone with Shasta's experience would just go crazy about that kind of one suspicion on him (mine, that is), especially if he was a gifted as that woud be like calling the wolves to meet him during the Night - just to take the most promising choice.The way I saw it, Shasta's strong reaction to your vote for him wasn't so much going crazy because he was suspected, but being insulted by your phrasing.

Mänwë was suspicious enough to merit one vote, but definitely not a bandwagon.Generally, voting for someone means you want them killed. If you think someone merits one vote, they just as well merit a bandwagon of them. I don't know if I'm making any sense at all.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog, a big Lommy and a host of phantoms

[Anguirel]

You're very tempted, phantom, aren't you! I won't break omerta myself, any more than I would, I don't know, steal Rikae's password and read her PMs. This is a comeback game, a real treat for me, and I want it to work however it's meant to work. I really don't think it's worth worrying about people breaking the rules. There are two main schools of thought about this game - Werewolf as competitive sport and Werewolf as psychological art. Both of those kinds of enjoyment would be hampered by peeking, so neither kind of player will do it. And after all, I've never known anyone cheat in Werewolf.

Speculation on the Dead Thread's outward appearance though is of course legit, and have you all noticed that Rikae is - contrary to my guess that she was a coavalta - pretty active in Mandos? What do you reckon is going on there? Just rules queries? Nerwen is on the money when she says there's a surprising amount of conversation going on there considering the population. I feel they must have received some kind of new information, or twist.

Talking of which, Fea, re those hypothetical ten werewolves - I was really referring to Diamond, who added a secret Wereduck if I remember rightly. As we both know, you tend to exaggerate rather than depreciate your minions' enemies' numbers! Your game was great, but I will always regret not persuading your own village to lynch you, 'Dark Lady'.

Legate - not having played with Manwe before, I was unaware that he was a particularly frequent scapegoat; while I regret having played a major role in lynching an unoriginal target, I must say he clearly picked the right game...perhaps he'd booked his bed in Mandos early.

I agree that Glirdan's comparison involving seers was unwise, but it seems to me not necessarily malicious. I must say that I'm known Glirdan as a Cobbler so often that I have illogical and unmathematical resistance to imagining him in that role yet again. I lean towards incautious innocent.

Aw phantom, be nice, give Mith a break and some virtual roses. But Boromir, the logical (well, the extreme) conclusion of your uneasy feeling about these veteran duellists is that they're both wolves. And if they were I could see them planning an acrimonious squabble, certainly. This theory is so amusing and attractive that I am having some trouble resisting it...

I wonder if it would be useful to make a summary of who, roughly, suspects and suspected who(m)?

[A Little Green]

1. Tp and Lottie might not seem extra suspicious but they kind of annoy(ed) me. 2. I know it was far-fetched, but worth pointing out. I wouldn't discredit the idea of cobblers trying to pass on information to the wolves via hints. 3. I feel so much like saying: in all seriousness, I'm not a cobbler, but I think that wouldn't help my case.1. Not surprised. 2. I agree that the cobblers will want to hint at the wolves, but the "hint" you found in Boro's post didn't seem like a hint at all to me. 3. Love.

Okay now that was too much! You always suspect me, at least on Day1. Are you intentionally trying to mislead people about this??This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do! :confused:

I don't get why tp is so obsessed about the dead thread. Pardon me for bringing the cobblers up again, but that strikes me as something a phabbler would do: smoothly and subtly try to concentrate the discussion on something rather irrelevant, but not too relevant to raise too many eyebrows.I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.

[Thinlómien]

Night time WolFea: Hey other wolves, if you Night kill me, the village won't find out I'm not actually the Seer, because they won't be told my role!You're not serious, are you? Last time I checked, wolves weren't allowed to go kamikaze.

I notice by the by that some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent - I don't agree with this at all; this is a totally novel sort of challenge and I feel utterly incompetent myself. It's very hard to judge on 'past form' in this one... (and that's one of my favourite techniques)That's a very sweet way of coming to my defense, gallant sir feanorian. :rolleyes: But honestly though, I was quite confused yesterDay, but I have the feeling I'm getting a grip of this toDay. Still quite sure I haven't considered several important facets of the game, but given that I'm going to live eternally in one way or another, I sure have time to figure it all out.

Agan's vote came quite out of nowhere.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.Although this is typical nogrodish brewing conspiracy theories at 3am, it still sounds fishy to me. *deep sigh*

Actually, this statement alone seem pretty cobblerish to me. Noggins raised a very valuable point on the Wolves (a very obvious one however, which makes me raise my eyebrow in his general direction). My question is why is this Cobblerish at all? The only thing that is remotely suspicious is the fact that he is stating the obvious, and that isn't that suspicious, people do it all the time.....well, to be a little more accurate, I do it all the time.I think saying the wolves would not aim for the seer is good groundwork for discrediting all possible evidence from Night kills, ergo suspicious and cobblerish.

And her reasoning for her vote for Manwe could just as easily be applied to about five other players, myself included. It seems like it's a throw away vote. But if that's the case, why not just say it's a throw away vote??A badly grounded vote is not the same as a throwaway. And obviosuly it was not throwaway, in retrospect, it determined the whole voting outcome of the Day. Now we just hope Mänwë was a wolf but I wouldn't bet too much on that.

I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.Awww, thanks. Trying to imply you're a cobbler, though? :p


edit: xed with Ang and Green

[Anguirel]

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

[Thinlómien]

This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do! :confused:I think you always suspect me on Day1 and drop it on Day2.

I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.Well I think he was doing that yesterDay.


edit: xed with Ang. I, for one, can wait. ;)

[A Little Green]

I think you always suspect me on Day1 and drop it on Day2.Hmm. I'm not sure I do, but I'm aware this is a rather fruitless conversation. However I hope you don't think I would stoop as low as to purposefully lie about something like that.
Well I think he was doing that yesterDay.Ah. I thought you were talking about toDay (which, in retrospect, was rather stupid of me, given that the quote was in your post commenting on Day 1 :rolleyes: ).

[the phantom]

I'm unsure of what "distracting" you think I'm doing, penguin-breath. Is there only one thing we're allowed to talk about and anything else is a "distraction"? Frankly, when it comes to providing thoughts and feelings towards others I think I've done as much as anyone.

[Thinlómien]

I do, however agree with everything else and wouldn't mind seeing Lommy lynched myself. Her vote is what's really getting me. She only had three votes, votes for Manwe, gives and explanation but the explanation pretty much said "Look at me, I'm a throw away vote in disguise"Come on Glirdy! Who should I have voted, then?

Lommy - She's always unsure of herself, but so far she's not looking "unsure" it's getting to the looking paranoid point. Bring back the other Lommy please, who was unsure, yet at the same time grounded and gave me stability. I've attributed the only thing that she had been sure of, the bororadar, has gone brokey recently. But until I see more, I'm not going to write that off as the cause.I think being too sure of oneself only leads to arrogance which leads to blindness which leads to epic fail. That tends to happen to me whenever I think I have a hang of the big picture in any ww game. So, it's better to admit your own confusion.

There are obviously the two camps: Day One is important and we need to pay really close attention to it; and Day One is important, but only in retrospect because while it's happening, all the good guys are totally clueless, so their votes are about as reliable as those of the wolves.More like, camp one says Day1 is important both then and especially in retrospect, while camp two says Day1 sucks excpet maybe in retrospect. ;)

That being said, now that Day One is over and we have a bit to go on, I don't think anybody (including myself) should make votes with apathy (and curiosity... I mean, I'm curious about the nature of the Dead Thread).Eh? I think in this game all the Days are more or less like regular Day1s so I can't see what's the big difference.

Lommy has played with Mänwe before and should know bantering doesn't necessarily make him evil.Not denying that. But it shouldn't make him innocent either.


edit: xed with my darling sister and Mr I-Ran-Away-From-Retirement-Home

[Thinlómien]

Hmm. I'm not sure I do, but I'm aware this is a rather fruitless conversation. However I hope you don't think I would stoop as low as to purposefully lie about something like that.Well not unless you were a cobbler. (Censure to safeguard the sanity of the most sensitive people. :smokin: )