Are You Writing Serious Fantasy? [Archive] - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Saxony Tarn

06-12-2002, 11:01 AM

Welcome, Elenna, and here is your official AYWSF pint --> |_|) fill it with the beverage of your choice. Virtually, of course.

Your stuff doesn't HAVE to be overtly Tolkein-related, i would say, just as long as you can get it in on technicalities! B)

LMP -- hallowed, iconic faerie-magnet things & places -- hang on, and let me think about that one over a few pints. i guess if i was actually chronicling what i expect my gamers to do when i dump THEM into Middle-Earth, one could say the Key that they're looking for is an artifact -- a mismatched set of 16 keys that will help them access things and knowledge that they'll need to help repel an invasion of their home Realm, and one key, for which i didn't have a location, i've hidden on Middle-Earth (why not, since all Dwarves and Classical Elves and Hobbits trace their ancestry to that mythical Realm of Tol Keinya far off to the East) -- literally right under their noses.

:: looking around for spies from my gaming group before i proceed any further :: of course i had to create a Knightly Order of the Gatekeepers, whose quasi-holy-spell focus symbol is a sizeable iron key worn on a short chain around the neck, in order to lay plenty of red herring keys around to throw them off the scent. No, they'll be looking for a singular, unique Meteorite-Iron key... i guess The Zil Keys could be an ongoing series, but that becomes game-spinoff fiction...

Keep writing -- let's go for eight pages!

s.t.

Naaramare

06-12-2002, 06:56 PM

Iconic/hallowed places? A couple . . .after the story is over, the site of the last battle becomes holy, hallowed and iconic (all at once!) because of various things that happen and people that die in the end.

During the story, well, Avalon is the center of my elven culture, and as elves aren't native to this world (in my story) the Glen at the center of Avalon, where they first arrived, is rather important to them. Stonehenge, Tara, the middle of Stanley Park (if you know where I'm talking about . . .don't ask. ^~) and various other holy places are centers of correspondance between our world and "faery" if you wish to call it that.

S'about all.

Nar

06-12-2002, 08:20 PM

Thinhyandoiel:
Not the above problem though. Why won't he DO something!? It depends why he's not doing anything: is he thin in your mind, or is it not the right time for him in the story? I had a problem with a nonresponse: heroine called out & hero didn't answer, so I had to decide: Is he gone? Did something drag him off? Why is his voice not in my head? So as background, I rewrote the entire story from his perspective to get him into my head-- just side notes, but when I went back to the scene, & she called him, he had something to say, and it rolled along. You can try creating some backstory for him on the side and see if it affects the character in your story. Or, just follow the flow of the story and see if he comes out later.

Saxony Tarn: I forgot to tell you my casting for your dwarf-character. I'm envisioning Jeremy Irons. Wait, listen. As nontraditional casting, it would strike a blow against Tallism, and he's a great actor, he can work it. He has a suitable dwarven melancholly: 'It's Eru's world, and he's only our stepdaddy.'

Elenna: Of course you can post on a serious fantasy work in an original world that you maybe hope to publish. That's what most of us have in the works. Our main issue in this thread is how to get out works that can stand by Tolkien and not just in Tolkien's shadow. At this point we're into techniques for bringing our stories up to the level of LotR. How do you write? How do you develop your world? What makes fantasy into the kind of book that fits into a reader's life like a key into a lock and opens up-- who knows? That depends on the book. Fantasy involves a sense of play for the author. The author can put anything in. There is a constraint, though, that Littlemanpoet might refer to as 'a sense of place.' (It's quite a few pages back in this thread) Any author might use magical or surreal elements to make a point or symbolize something, but a fantasy author must achieve a story that holds together as in another world, even if it's just a state of mind-- that story cannot just be our world with magic soup dropped in to make a highfalutin symbolic point. A fantasy author has respect for the story as story and the place as a place-- we are the closest in spirit to the first storytellers, because we treat with our stories as if they were real.

As to the current questions: Things that grew? Oh, yes, that pickle jar (the one my heroine is fending off my fearsome monster with) It's turned out to be quite the Silmaril-- who would have thought it of a pickle jar? It sent her out of the world just has she was about to be chomped *big sigh, comes out from under desk*.

Littlemanpoet: Places. I've found that I can only believe in the transition from reality to other world if the settings are compatible. I tried to send my heroine through from her room to someplace outdoors, and I just couldn't believe in it. Once I figured out it had to be room to cave, it all came together. The story has to make sense at some primitive lizard-brain level. My lizard-brain just doesn't believe you can change indoors to outdoors, even with massive magic.

[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

Saxony Tarn

06-13-2002, 11:19 AM

Nar -- very good point about characters dropping their cues (sort of the opposite of the ad-libbing that mine have been perpetrating on each other and me) Another thing i'll notice is that in one night i may pound out a torrent of scenes, then looking back at it several days later, after having written a few more twists' worth, something that seemed rough will finish itself, or something that appeared to be missing will suggest itself (same way in a gaming group session or in a well-constructed movie -- some people/characters/plot threads speak louder than others, and you don't always hear the softer voices the first time around. i recall discovering things in the FOURTH iteration of FOTR that i had missed in the first three, and now that a pal's got Harry Potter on DVD, i'm going to go play plot-point treasure hunt in that realm soon enough)

Also remind me, while i'm waiting for the caffeine to take effect, what's Jeremy Irons got on his movie-role resume? Help me get a picture of him under Náin's dark red wig and beard, purple pirate headscarf and scale-mail. How un-tall is he? What makes him a shoo-in for a Dwarven Tinker? (for the same reason that,say, casting Grace Jones as my half-Orc allows me to use her for the human mother w/o the make-up & fangs) Changed the Elf's actor to Cary Elwes & i think that was a better casting (esp. after he played that delightfully dastardly officer in Jungle Book) And he can probably speak with an Elvish accent, too... B)

Basically, when you can see these characters acting out your plot plans as if you were directing them on set, you've either got something really strong going with your story, or you've got to check your drink for hallucinogens. The tricky part is conveying that vividness to your average reader, who might not always have her imagination tooling along in fifth gear, and you want her to feel like she's watching your story on IMAX with Dolby Surround Sound. (or you want him to have as bold an impression of your world as you did when writing it, such that he's testing his water for hallucinogens -- or bottling it & selling it)

But i digress (as is my wont) and probably sound like the melting ice in my drink is releasing some sort of psychotropic compound into my soda (along with my caffeine) -- so before i go test my tap water, let me toss another one out, harkening back to "half a page to describe a tree", let's talk about colorful metaphors (my native language!)

i'll offer up the sacrificial example -- as previously confessed, i have plenty of paranormal powers operating in my tale, and have to describe the implementation, effects, operation... of such abstract concepts as concrete sensory images. This gives rise to an iconography of symbolic representations, for example, the grey mist that's become a running metaphor serves to obscure things, negative-emotion hindrances take the form of restraints or barriers (The Black Cage of Envy is a salient one) and much of Iârangol Nûrbôrniel's mana output is infrared, dark red, or temperature-linked. More conventionally to those familiar with such concepts, the energy pathways of Middle-Earth all bent sharply toward Orodruin, such that it looks to those who can perceive it like a grid representation of a black hole, sucking energy into the volcano and bending the usual "faery trackways" out of their alignment to the point where anything utilizing them stands a chance of being sucked in (and once the Ring is thrown in, the whole process reverses -- we hope!)

The hidden topic here would be, to paraphrase the very clever title of a book that i've not yet read, "what is the Color of Magic"? How do you describe its manifestation, its operation; how do you rip a hole in the Space-Time continuum, have a column of flame pour down at your mage's direction, and have a non-gaming, new-to-the-genre reader convinced that, even if only for the Biblical precedent, yes, this could happen?

|_|) <-- go for it!

s.t.

Thinhyandoiel

06-14-2002, 12:54 AM

Nar, interesting idea, and worth a shot. If I can write from his point of view, the idea that I know where he fits in is most intriguing. I have a rough plot in my head already for his little tale. I thank you for the advice. My greatest fear is that I'll have to delete him (heaven forbid). I could say he is what I call, my stabalizing factor. In that while the rest are running around with their problems and saving the world and such, he is there to help and guide and be their support. Sort of like Legolas and Gimli, I guess. The faithful "sidekicks". Yes, they have their issues, but not issues that directly affect the plot of destroying the Ring. They were support for the others, mainly Aragorn. So, now I have to ask my character this question. "WHY ARE YOU HERE?" And hear him tell me his tale. Should be fun!

Aragorn_the_Ranger

06-14-2002, 02:41 AM

Hey good jobs guys gotta make 8 smilies/biggrin.gif
I just wanted to know how ppl started their stories cause I can never start a story properly, but when I do I'm off like a rocket smilies/cool.gif
Also has anyone heard of Sea-drakes in Tolkien cause I just heard bout them and I wanna add them in to my story or somthing. Some might know what story I'm doin already.
Also how does one make a really good battle scene/fight.
Thanx and let's get to 8 pages

Niphredil Baggins

06-14-2002, 05:37 AM

Well, as I said, I have four protagonists, but that may be two many (this is Dremette I'm speaking about, Chrystal Heart has 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8... at least ten people who each get the spotlight in turns.. somehow they manage it, ...
Wow! I had an idea... Thanks guys, you got me thinking...

[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Niphredil Baggins ]

Elenna

06-14-2002, 08:55 AM

I am also now writing a fanfic set in the 4th age about the last few elves left in Middle Earth going off on a quest to slay Shelob. I've always wanted her to die, haven't you?

*Takes a sip of her pint of grape soda |_|*

Do any of you know where I can find an Elvish dictionary that I don't have to download?

littlemanpoet

06-14-2002, 10:56 AM

Niphredil, I am so glad you made that fww place and now you're thinking "out loud" here - what a combination. I'm fascinated. Can't wait, can't wait! I wonder if you're giving away too much, but you probably know best.

Nar, you're advice is priceless. So as background, I rewrote the entire story from his perspective to get him into my head-- just side notes, but when I went back to the scene, & she called him, he had something to say, and it rolled along. You can try creating some backstory for him on the side and see if it affects the character in your story. Or, just follow the flow of the story and see if he comes out later.

This ought to be exported to fww.

Picky, but are you sure lizard-brain is right? I thought it was the mammal-brain that tried to make some imagistic sense of the raw material the lizard-brain cooks up. Or is it the next level up? Are there three or four? I'm thinking there are four because consciousness is #4 and there has to be something subconscious and human between mammal and awareness, right? But what is it called, prehistoric/pre-aware human-brain? I would expect that to be the one that makes myth. I'm all confused. Heck I only read one book about it once last summer.

And this little summary below ought to get top billing somehow in this thread. It was great. Wish I'd put it in those words. Yes, yes, yes!

Our main issue in this thread is how to get out works that can stand by Tolkien and not just in Tolkien's shadow. At this point we're into techniques for bringing our stories up to the level of LotR. How do you write? How do you develop your world? What makes fantasy into the kind of book that fits into a reader's life like a key into a lock and opens up-- who knows? That depends on the book. Fantasy involves a sense of play for the author. The author can put anything in. There is a constraint, though, that Littlemanpoet might refer to as 'a sense of place.'

Aragorn the Ranger: I suggest scanning through the previous pages of this thread. There is a lot of really good stuff from a whole bunch of serious writers. Such as on doing battles (page 3?) As far as starting a story out, a literary agent advised a group of us fiction writers to first introduce the main character and make her/him someone the reader can relate to on some level (make sure there is some kind of conflict/tension on the first page) and after you have introduced the character, bring on the big conflict. That way the reader cares about the character enough to want to find out what happens.

By the way, another winner in publishable story-making that I'm finally trying to employ is "keep it moving". If there is any dead time killing the pace of your story, surgically remove it no matter how painful to your own personal favoritisms. Oh, and hand in hand with K-I-M is 'simplify'; that is, don't say anymore than the reader needs to know at this point in the story so that you don't slow the pace. If it ends up feeling rushed, internal thought process does a fine job of gearing down out of tenth to ninth, or whatever. Wups - gave unasked for advice there. Free for the taking!

Happy writing! smilies/smile.gif

Saxony Tarn

06-14-2002, 11:02 AM

:: taking a swig of root beer :: Elenna, i wish i knew where to find such an Elvish dictionary (but then i wouldn't have this budding e-mail pen pal relationship with my Elvish consultant over across the pond B( and i do want overseas contacts)

Aragorn's questions on how to start stories, write battles, usw. -- well, let's see here -- my stories usually start clawing their way out of my head and i relent and let them out before i take too much internal damage. i didn't start writing "Afterlife Crisis" ("Trust Me"s working title until about 31 May) by sitting down at my computer and thinking, "i'm going to write some LOTR fanfic", it more or less said, "you're going to write me, or I'm going to drive you insane!" Your mileage, of course, may vary, but my best recommendation is, if it's not coming, don't force it. If it is, on the other hand, clear your calendar and have at it (which is what i hope i'll be doing tonight. There's a monster that needs to die.)

Whatever you DO have in your head, no matter how disjointed it appears, write it down. i was fortunate enough to have the opening for my tale present itself early enough (oddly enough, as other Wights have experienced, in a dream. Kid you not, i was a camera on the shoulder of one member of a party dragging a corpse out of a waterfall with intent to restore life to it. Saw the half-Orc very clearly too. Added the snarky little parody of that Scottish post-battle standard "Twa Corbies" later) You can always chain them together later (that's what 2-liter bottles of soda and huge bags of chips are for -- editing sessions!) True confessions -- in school i used to carry a stack of ruled newsprint with me and write story pieces while everyone else was finishing up the quiz (was a knack that i took tests fast, whether i knew the subject well or not. You either know it or you don't) -- yes, it was rough, it read like a soap opera constantly toggling between plots, but later it became the back history for another series of tales (the Silmarillion for the story w/ the talking car, it could be said) and i still can lay my hands on that manuscript -- wrote one episode that made heavy reference to it (had to insert one character or two into the original story) -- wrote with that pile of paper on my lap. Guess another point to make is, save your notes! (BTW, Starbreeze -- how'd your herb research go?)

Battles -- hmm, Starbreeze again? Short of getting the real-world experience of throwing punches and drinking fury, grab a bunch of action movies of the genre you seek to write on video, stuff them all into your head, let them ferment for an evening and then sample the brew. i find that music helps me get a handle on certain impressions -- in fact, there's more than one fight sequence in this tale that, if you cue up a given song at the right place, should, i hope, be able to be read/envisioned to the tune, with combatants' sparkling repartee coming in at the right points for lyrics. The point is, if you don't feel the action, how can you convey it so that your reader can? Whatever helps you to bring it forth should be tried (provided of course that it's not harmful to you or others or will land you in trouble w/ your local LEOs. Gotta include that caveat!)

Okay, i've rambled enough for awhile, so i'll get behind that bar & start serving drinks. 8 pages, here we come...

|_|) <-- Skoal!

s.t.

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 11:14 AM

wow. Yup I am writing serious fantasy.
The only thing is I dont know were to begin at. OK Ive been working on it for about 6 months now. I have made maps, indexes of names, timelines and 4 languages. But I am never satisfied with my writing. Everyone sez it good and beyond thier comprehension, but I am my own toughest critic. As for inseration, well most of it comes from my life, I am an insanly complex person, and no one really understands me smilies/confused.gif but I feed off of my pain and suffering smilies/mad.gif As far as imitating JRRT, well i have battled with that many times. The problem is, I love the books so much, it is hard to hrid my thoughts of them when I work on it. Oh yeah whats it about you say? smilies/rolleyes.gif Well this is an incredably long backstory, but it cronicals( i cant spell ) the realm of Anaron ( i dont know how to get the little dash above the second a it's easy on my other computer ) I daont know wheater to work on a preqquel fisrt, or the 1st series, which is about the journey of Drayken, who is anything but your clean cut hero. He is thought to be evil by the people of his kingdom ( well not actually his, Drayken is the last of a subspecies of men called the Kobowins). As for other races i have the hornfolk ( barbairian types with little horns in their eyebrows) dwarves ( with all golden eyes ) elves ( most baised on my best friend) endred ( bird like people) merfolk, and some others. Since im running out of thing to say with out reveiling too much plot ( oh theres a lot- 4 main series worth )
ill just end with a free form poem i thought up
what am I but a shell of a man,
Nay I am nor shell nor spirit,
Nothing but a wisper in the wind of something that could be,
I look at others and ask why them why me,
They dont care for my ideas,
They are oblivious to my hours of work
they dont know my pain,
To them I am nothing,
But i am much more
Of for the life of a lonely 14 year old smilies/frown.gif

Saxony Tarn

06-14-2002, 12:25 PM

welcome, #10, and thanks for pushing us to page 8! :: pours drinks all around ::

|_|) <-- here is your official mead-of-inspiration mug, fill it with whatever inspires you.

i think you'll find Wights of all ages on this board, all sharing things about their writing and helping each other progress toward "serious" fantasy -- be welcome and post often.

s.t.

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 12:36 PM

smilies/evil.gif yes yes dance my pretties, oh yeah and hi yourself, how did you know it was my first post smilies/rolleyes.gif oh yeah the newly deciced thing? yeah that s it. and now it's time for another one of my poems Deep inside every man burns a fire
And shadow battles light
the winner lies in desire
As day turns to night

Everthing comes from somewhere
Every beginning comes to an end
A fight against the world is never fair
Yet for every foe there is a friend

In the distance lay dangers unkown
Yet you battle on with all your might
You approach the beast of stone
As day turns to night
I worte that last night smilies/biggrin.gif Its for my story smilies/wink.gif thanx and cya smilies/evil.gif

Maikadilwen

06-14-2002, 01:25 PM

Yay, page 8. Post away you guys. This is interesting stuff.
This round's on me.... |_|)|_|)|_|)|_|)|_|)|_|) smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 01:34 PM

how 'bout some leaf /\
( )
( )
\/
I
smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/evil.gif

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 01:35 PM

that leaf didn't come out well smilies/frown.gif
smilies/evil.gif

Starbreeze

06-14-2002, 01:43 PM

Its funny what people come up with. Someone, when reading my story said: "why is it that everything happens to people in books, I mean, why don't people in books have normal lives, like us, why do they always end up having adventures and stuff?"

I couldn't beleive it! Its simple - if people in books had normal lives, no one would read the book! People in books have adventures becuase otherwise the person wouldn't be worth reading (or writing) about.

What I'm leading to is:

How do you make your adventures and mishaps seem realisitc, and not seem like everything happens to the same person, impossibly frequently?

Does that make sense? I expect not - having only just started recovering from all the cramming and the exams I've done in the past 24 hours I probably don't make any sense at all - and at the moment I'm a bit hyper from all that pent up energy beeing released at once. *swirls around the room in hyper activeness*

Saxony Tarn

06-14-2002, 01:54 PM

Ah, Starbreeze, you've hit the nail on the head there! Guess it really depends on what you consider a "normal life"!

Let me tell you what that pile of manuscript that i was writing back in school consisted of: From Monday through Friday, the classes my young characters were in, the things they had to deal with, and the falling bits of sky that made their secondary-school years just that much more surreal. "School as it was, as it wasn't, as it should have been, as it never should have been", i used to describe it (for example, Tama had it easy, just being "lavender" -- whereas Biffi was later revealed to be a lavender-skinned space alien, Barry whose Irish family lived at the end of Druid Wood Road (a real street in the real small town in New Jersey where i lived while writing it) and were all practicing Celtic magicians cast a few spells to save his and a few others' collective bacon, etc. It was the 80's, so leather jackets and switchblades were required armor and weapons -- firearms were always the province of the grownups, and even Jason (who was a few years older) when he picked up the bad guy's discarded gun, never fired it -- he turned it right over to the cops...

Even then, it is a sobering thought to note that, 20 years hence, were i writing this in a school in America today, i would be the first one sent to the principal's office, if not outright suspended and given thorough analysis. Zero tolerance, you know. But i'm sure the cast of "Wierd Things Happen In New Jersey" would have quite a lot to say about Columbine.

i'm just not about to ask them, at least not until my LOTR inspiration runs out.

|_|) <-- Skoal!

s.t.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 04:23 PM

Id try to make a better leaf but I don't have the time, GTA III is my life (again)
smilies/tongue.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
smilies/evil.gif

NazgulNumber10

06-14-2002, 04:25 PM

Almost forgot
|_|) hic hic 'nother round, my tab,oh ah put in under the name Underhill smilies/rolleyes.gif
smilies/evil.gif

Naaramare

06-14-2002, 08:45 PM

The time that my characters were having monster-of-the-week adventures, it was simply because the elder elven member of the coterie was bored. He constructed most of the "trouble" and brought them in and around it as entertainment, distraction and protection for himself. ^^ So that's that. For the later years--the actual subject of my book--well, there's only this one "adventure" (synonym for "little trip through hell") and then they all retire. So. That's how I handle it. For this story.

For others, well, the characters take the attitude to "adventure" that veteran homicide cops take to their work: "Okay, what's going to try to destroy the world TODAY?" They're also paranoid. Extremely.

Thinhyandoiel

06-14-2002, 11:06 PM

Hello Number10! Mae govannen!

How do you make your adventures and mishaps seem realisitc, and not seem like everything happens to the same person, impossibly frequently?

Eeee...this is so hard to do! And it is kind of important as well. (Tch, kind of? 'Tis very important.) I mean, if Frodo got stabbed one more time in LOTR I would have thrown down my book in exasperation. Seriously, that hobbit cannot keep himself out of trouble. Well, okay, so he's carrying the Ring of Power that could very well destroy the world...er...I withdraw what I said earlier.

The thing is, I've read stories where everything horrible and awful happens to only one or two characters. It gets mundane and predictable, but none of the characters can go through the whole tale unscathed (in our chosen genre of course).
In my story, I've tried to 'balance it out' a bit, trying not to reserve all the injuries for one of the main characters. After he fell off that building, I decided no more injuries for a few more chapters. He'd had enough for one day smilies/tongue.gif

Oh yeah, I just thought of something. That one character who hadn't done anything, actually joined the party because he was looking for adventure. Ironic.

Starbreeze

06-15-2002, 09:53 AM

I spread the duties of heroism across several people, in several places, that way, even if one group of people is attacked, not all my heros are injured. It also means I can vary the injuries each 'hero' aquires - e.g. one time Imila would suffer from burns from a woral attack but the next time she would be psychologically (sp?) affected by the sights she saw after a Ter-hound (another invention of mine, fresh off the drawing board and with out a proper name) attacked a villager. This way it is more varied and less repetitive but still represents the danger of the quest these people are embarking on.

NazgulNumber10

06-15-2002, 10:16 AM

I just read the thing starbreeze said on page five about getting bullied and using the anger to write. Well you hit the nail on the head. Thats just what I do. I'm too small and weak to fight back (:mad smilies/smile.gif, so i use my hate as fual for the fire. As your can tell, it's a very dark story. smilies/wink.gif (laughs evily from computer in barad-dur as lighting steaks thought the sky and more nazgul ride by)
Man thats a comfy couch
smilies/evil.gif

NazgulNumber10

06-15-2002, 10:22 AM

sorry page 4 (smacks himself in head)
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NazgulNumber10

06-15-2002, 03:53 PM

wo ho Imade it to pile o'bones. Plus today I finished the first chapter of my book. It'll need some revisionns But im happy with this milestone
|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
nother round'
smilies/evil.gif

Niphredil Baggins

06-17-2002, 03:44 AM

I wonder if Littlemanpoet means that I spoiled some surprises for him about Chrystal Heart, or that someone might steal my story... anyways, it is true I should have written what I wrote to our group... but I was in the computer class, and I had no paper to scribble on... I needed to write something on something, so I wrote it on the internet! I'm weird, I know... I think I'll try to edit the messages... poor me... anyways, all I told was misleading! And if someone steals the ideas, none of them is new in the first place... read my sig.

Elenna

06-18-2002, 11:11 AM

Starbreeze, the way I make my adventures that I write sound realistic is by doing a lot of research. That sounds unbearably boring, but it works. I read a lot of stuff about the kind of settings, weapons, and characters. I also always read parts of LOTR that apply.

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Oh, and thanks for the round!

Joy

06-18-2002, 03:01 PM

I do the same thing. I reseach each thing that I write, whether it be a Tolkien fact or sword design. I want the reader to be pulled into the story. I want the to feel everything that each character feels.

Also, I want each character to be "true to life", a person that the reader can relate to, even if it is the villan.

Naaramare

06-18-2002, 09:05 PM

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Good Goddess do I know that feeling. XD Constant! Sudden questions from the teacher are bad for that, too . . . "um, what was the question?"

littlemanpoet

06-19-2002, 10:14 AM

Do you use interlacing in your story? You know, two or more plot threads running through your story simultaneously and you skip back and forth between them. Tolkien used it in Two Towers and the first half of Return of the King. His was more spread out, a hundred or more pages spent on one thread at a time. If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it? What about interspersing every other chapter (I'm experimenting with that right now)? What are the dangers? Pitfalls? Benefits? Some of this has been dealt with on the "Interlacing" thread on Books II. Some comments from that thread are:

Me: If Tolkien had NOT done interlacing, but had resorted to the OTHER ways of telling the same story (EITHER by an omniscient author perspective which pulls you out of the story too much OR by leaving you hanging until the end and finding out everything else that fed into the climax only at the denouement), it would have been very unsatisfactory, and important characters like Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli, not to mention Theoden, Eowyn, and all the rest that were not directly about Frodo, Sam and Gollum, would never have received the character development Tolkien gave them.

Nar said: ...it drove me crazy every time the action switched...Today, a writer would probably organize the story into shorter segmants and do rapid cutting as in movies. Those long books had a certain hypnotic effect-- particularly the Frodo and Sam and Gollum story. I think on the whole that that effect was worth a little frusteration.

Akhtene said: It allowed to create a really whole historical picture, not just describe the adventures of a group of characters. And even if it drives somebody mad, first of all it whips up curiosity, desire to know what is happening to other characters at the time of some other events described. You sort of find yourself in several places at one and the same time.
I'm only too happy that Tolkien didn't use this interlacing from the very start of the first book (or maybe he didn't need to?..) I don't believe it can make a good beginning, when the reader is absolutely confused by unrelated characters,places and situations, starts making wild guesses or simply can't understand what it is all about.
Problem is, I'm starting it right off in the beginning. First chapter's about big brother, second about little brother, third about big brother again...

Kuruharan said: Be glad he didn't alternate between the groups every couple of chapters. If he had it probably would have destroyed any sense of continuity in the story.
Uh-oh. Like, that's exactly what I'm doing. How do I NOT break the sense of continuity? How do YOU handle it?

NyteSky said: [QUOTE] [/If it's driving you crazy to find out what happens next but then you get really involved in the part that you're in only to have it switch back, then the author did it perfectly. That way you keep reading because to stop would cause the built up curiousity to slowly eat away at your brain until you go raving mad. It's a tricky line to walk though. Too much space between parts, or one boring part and the author can lose the audience. It's risky, but worth it if done well.QUOTE]
Ah. That one makes me feel a little better. So waddaya think, friends?

And Happy Writing!

Saxony Tarn

06-19-2002, 11:00 AM

Hey -- way to go LMP, you'll have us on page NINE soon enough! Great thing that you mention, as one of my actually completed tales has three main characters whose threads are interlaced and i do switch between them often.

The chapters though each represent a day, so i switch between them as if i were the cameraman on a soap opera set, and give the reader each's activities for the day, first dwelling on one, then cutting to the other, and so forth. (And at three points in the story, all three are on stage at the same time)

The tale isn't grand or long enough to be able to devote one chapter or more to each divergent thread -- Tolkein had that luxury, and when the Fellowship split up, pretty much had to! Taking that much time on each one also allowed him to focus (and back when it was written, readers had longer attention spans -- now, we want instant updates on everyone!)

One experiment i did for a college class (when i was first writing Ace of Cups (the story i mention)) was extract one character's thread from the story and submit it as a novella to the class, to see if it could stand alone as a story focused on, say, Udo, with Karlena and Kieter mentioned only where their threads crossed. i'd like to think that it does.

Before pontificating further i should probably read your work so as to know what i'm talking about -- where was that site again? In Niphredil's sig?

B)

s.t.

|_|) <-- pint break!

Starbreeze

06-19-2002, 12:23 PM

Firstly, NazgulNumber10, may I congratulate you on your poetry. Poetry is a much underestimated and misunderstood genre. I write poetry to supplement my story, and before that I wrote free standing poetry. Yours is very good and you should be congratulated for many people are too scared of what people will say to write or display poetry. smilies/smile.gif

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Tell me about it! That is so familiar!

Do you use interlacing in your story? If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it? What about interspersing every other chapter (I'm experimenting with that right now)? What are the dangers? Pitfalls? Benefits? Some of this has been dealt with on the "Interlacing" thread on Books II. Some comments from that thread are:

Oh gosh! Where to start. Well, yes, I do use interlacing in my story, it wrote itself in. My whole story is based on events happening in three places across the land, which culminate in the second book.
How do I do it? Well, it varies, sometimes I change my thread every few chapters or so, I think the largest gap is three chapters, and sometimes I switch within chpters - usually when there is a lot of action going on in two of the places - this has the effect of creating cliffhangers in the middle of action, but as you pointed out some people find it hard to get into the story when it is done like that, so I do it only when necessary.
Changing thread every chapter - well, I wouldn't advise it, it is best if you let the reader get into each thread a little way before cutting them off, or they will find it hard to settle and follow the plot. I would do it more the Tolkien way - every few chapters.
The benefits of interlacing is that you can tell more than one story which are linked in some way, and have a big climax at the end - or maybe leave the book on a cliffhanger and continue in another book.
The pitfalls? Well, you can disgruntle some readers, and if they are not executed effectively they can ruin the story, making it seem jumpy and not flowing properly (gah, what awful grammer!)
I started my interlacing right at the start of the book too, for me it was the only way to introduce all the characters fairly simultaniously, portray events that happen at almost the same time but in different places, side by side, and from then on it developed into the way I write my story.
So many things in my story happen at the same time as things elsewherem this makes it very difficult to write effectively without interlacing. My story (the first book anyway) is set over a time of only 20 days, but an awful lot happens all over Philan'noth and it all needs to be noted.

NazgulNumber10

06-19-2002, 12:38 PM

Thanx. I do like to share my writings, but hate to show them when they are incomplete. For some time in school I was working on the first chapter for my story and every one wanted to read it. The problem is, with out the ending ( a big plot twist) it was meaningless, and lead up to nothing. There was noything to keep them itrested or to think about untill I finished that part. Now I have gone over it about 8 times ( it must be perfect) and found more ways to draw people into it. I think that the first chapter, or even paragraph of a book is very important. It must draw readers in but not reveil too much so there is some sort of mystery involved. For fantasy, this is quite hard. Oh well enough of my ramblings, and thanx again starbreeze.
smilies/evil.gif

AragornsHeir

06-19-2002, 12:43 PM

I have written many fantasies. One I’ve only been working on for a year but I have three others that have been developing about Vampires for nearly six years. And it's hard not to take some of Ann Rice's Ideas. And never yet have I found a fantasy writer that has not been inspired by Tolkien and thus taken some of his ideas and incorporated and twisted things into there own. "You cannot create new things in a world where everything has been thought of" A friend of mine that writes as well and it is also said by my father who has written and published many books.
I read "Kalasins Rant" as it were. And I agreed with you as a wrighter. Her characters waverd as well. I didn't like that at all.

Starbreeze

06-19-2002, 01:01 PM

I think that the first chapter, or even paragraph of a book is very important. It must draw readers in but not reveil too much so there is some sort of mystery involved. For fantasy, this is quite hard

Yes, to use a phrase prehaps overly used in this thread - you've hit the nail on the head there. All I can say is there seems to be an awful lot of nails in fantasy writing.
Thats ok, a writer needs to be praised or they will loose heart and the world be deprived of much of its beautiful writings.

Naaramare

06-19-2002, 01:22 PM

If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it?

My current story, not very much. I chose First Person Past as my tense, and boy is it a [radio edit]. I break out of it a little bit with short interludes from other POV's--the story is being set up as if the heroine is telling this from journals she kept during the time, memory spells and there are a few things for which she needs other people's input for, because she didn't know what was going on at the time.

In general, when writing from third-person I do interlacing a lot. Generally, starting out which a chapter-ish length per POV at the beginning, then cutting down to either just one POV or more rapid switches closer to the end of the action.

Lila Bramble

06-19-2002, 04:05 PM

Two or more plot lines weaving together? Sometimes by accident it happens, but I don't try to, since it would be too hard to understand and craziness to make an ending for each plot. I do have one event that has affect on another, then another, and so on, but I never intentionly have more than 1 plot line.

Saxony Tarn

06-19-2002, 04:09 PM

Welcome to Aragorn's Heir -- |_|) <-- here's your official AYWSF pint. Drink up!

Great things to share here (you too Starbreeze, with poetry breaks in your tales!) let's keep this topic going…

…unless you'll allow me to sidetrack it off on a POV question:

owing to the nature of my fanfic, i'm telling it from what should best be considered "Third-Person Limited Omniscient" in that the reader has a wiretap only on the internal thoughts of one character and hears the other's speech and "thoughts" only when they are expressed in a manner that at least one other character can intuit (thus a telepathic exchange between, say, Rhigellan and Iârangol counts as "conversation" even though it is not vocalized (and thus put in quotes, as my rule is if it's in quotes, then it was said out loud) since it's set apart from the standard text in some way to mark it as 'non-private thought', but what they personally think of, for example, the other members of the party, unless one of them says anything explicitly, the reader doesn't know (whereas the reader knows more of what main character's opinions of things than said character is comfortable having the reader know, thanks to those wiretaps in his head)

i've dealt well with 3P-God's-Eye-View perspectives before by focusing on one character's thoughts at a time, pulling the camera back before getting into another character's head so as not to disorient the reader too much (as i am fond of putting a story away for a year, then picking it up and reading it afresh -- best way to edit if you have that luxury!)

The sticker in the current project, given the premise and the way it's set up, comes in when the particular character whose skull has been metaphorically wired with the listening bugs engages in internal debate with himself, at which point two other perspectives emerge (Conscience uses 2PV, addressing him as "you", Ego responds in 1PV) Internal monologue is one standard of 1PV narration, but Internal Dialogue?

Don't misunderstand me -- as the writer, i'm completely comfortable with this, but my question is how other readers would find it. i, being used to such shifts, find it natural and engaging (as if i'm eavesdropping on this Freudian conundrum that he finds himself in) but i'm wondering if others find such devices confusing.

(probably it's a good thing that this is not intended for the paying market -- as the psychological aspect of this tale is something that's best pulled off amazingly well or not at all! B) )

s.t.

|_|) <-- raise your glass!

littlemanpoet

06-20-2002, 10:28 AM

ST, I'm really intriqued, but I feel like I'm getting lost in the variety of perspectives you mention and I'm trying to get my mind around them. Could you maybe provide snippet examples of the various 1pv 2pv and so forth?

I'll PM you regarding the fww site story and all that, soon as I've cleared it with enough VIPs.

Have some of that fav nectar of yours on me, ST |_|)

Regarding lengthening this thread:
It might be wise, folks, to keep our comments to a minimum in terms of lengthening the thread. I can imagine that the powers that be, deadbenevolent as they may be, may take a dim view on that and decided this thread has gone on long enough. Last thing we want is for it to disappear. When it got moved from Books II to Books, I thought it had gotten totally yanked! Talk about ruining someone's day! So I suggest that if you do want to celebrate the length of the thread, do so in the context of something that adds to the thread's topic - and let's all work to keep tying it into Tolkien - after all, this is a dedicated site. Teamwork and all that, friends.

Happy Writing!

Saxony Tarn

06-20-2002, 11:15 AM

LMP -- good point about gratuitous thread-lengthening and well taken. We certainly do not wish to anger the guiding spirits of this board! On that note, since you asked for some snippets of the POV shift internal dialogue, i suppose that since this is the "Boromir in Purgatory" tale, it might get away with being dubbed "Tolkein-related"... B)
Longest example of internal dialog, pivotal plot point snipped from Chapter 20. Scene - North side of Emyn Arnen. In a grove in the woods, huddled under a thicket with a familiar dark-red roundshield stuck in the branches overhead to make a crude rain-block is a slumped figure in black plate armor, with an unresponsive, comatose body in its arms, both covered by an awfully familiar-looking Lorien-made cloak. Time: wee hours of May Day morning, TA3019, as the man in plate slowly wakes from a nightmare...

A bird perched in the branches about his shield dispelled the haunting with a tuneful chirping, bringing him to a groggy half-lucid state in a grove so silent that an acorn dropped by a squirrel overhead rung off his helmet with the low tone of a bell.
This cannot be real. This cannot be happening to me!
Of course it can, Denethorsson, you fell asleep on the watch again. Damned shoddy performance for one of your lofty rank and lengthy experience, if you ask me. And for how long were you out, pray tell? Long enough, perhaps, for seven to become eight?
Do you dare open your eyes?
Do I dare open my eyes, he thought in defiant answer, do I dare take your bait -- could it be that this is merely the foul trickery of that creature?
Oh, NOW you begin to get wise to this game! Better Latent than never, they say...
Do you want to take that chance?

I want very much to disbelieve this, he admitted, I want very much for this to be an illusion!
Of course you do -- how humiliating can it be for a Captain to lose a force of one troop? Then again, you have lost far more comrades of far longer acquaintance, truly, what difference does this relative stranger make?
I have lost friends and good men by the score, I have stopped my father from attempting to take my brother's life -- I have taken missile fire that would drop many men and still kept fighting to the last, and yet if I open my eyes to find that she has died while I slept, then I shall know pain and I am not willing to take that chance!
A parry, a feint, a thrust straight at his heart -- a chill darting through his chest from which the armor could not protect him, with all the pain of that third arrow: gotcha!

(camera sweep of grove, 3P narration resumes as he works up the courage to ascertain whether or not his incapacitated companion is still alive)

This is freshly written story meat from last week -- hope you find it tasty!

s.t.

(Note to Nar & Aragorn the Ranger -- yes, this is the same story you volunteered to test-read. bon appetit!)

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

Lily Tussle

06-20-2002, 01:00 PM

Regarding Point of View: I once read abook where each chapter was told from a different chracter's point of view. It was interesting, because it allowed you to see the story from several differnt angles, and it was much less confusing than the author-knows-all point of view. I, myself, tend to write in third person limited, but that gets rather dull after some time. Is there any way to focus on more than one character's thoughts and feelings but with out it being dubbed as "omniscient" (did I spell that right?), and therefore becoming sort of confusing as to whom we are focusing on now?

Laiedheliel

06-20-2002, 01:04 PM

<font color=silver>Yum! S.T., I thought that was terrific! smilies/smile.gif

(as i am fond of putting a story away for a year, then picking it up and reading it afresh -- best way to edit if you have that luxury!)--s.t.

You can actually do this? When this happens to me, I usually end up changing the plot in ways I had never concieved possible when actually writing the story. Sure, I catch many more gramatical errors this way, but I also usually change major plot points (which were meant to stay intact!) or kill of a character I had not wanted to. I suppose my question here is, can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Do you use interlacing in your story? You know, two or more plot threads running through your story simultaneously and you skip back and forth between them.--LMP

I find I like doing this when I am trying to show both the good and evil sides of things in my story. smilies/wink.gif A chapter or two dedicated to the bad guys ever so often is what I mean, just enough so the reader can try and predict what the bad guys are going to do; and it also gives the reader foreknowledge the main good guys don't have. Kinda like in the FotR movie, where the camera jumps from the good guys in Rivendell to Sauraman (sp?) in Isenguard (I had to try to incorperate LotR somehows... smilies/biggrin.gif)

Thanks for the pint! l_l)</color>

NazgulNumber10

06-20-2002, 02:09 PM

I use 3rd person but give enough lee way so people can interpert it differently.
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Thinhyandoiel

06-20-2002, 02:11 PM

Grr, I really hate my computer. I had this whole nice big reply all typed out, then when I go to hit "Add Reply" Computer crashes. smilies/mad.gif Grr.

Anyways! Let's see how much I can remember, shall we? Littlemanpoet, wise words on keeping this Tolkien-tied. I've tried to incorporate him in my posts (I did this, Tolkien did this) But it's getting harder and harder lately with the new range of questions going on. Ah well, I'll just have to try harder, eh? smilies/tongue.gif

Now, let's see. Interlacing. In all my readings no author has ever gotten me so frustrated in this than Tolkien. Love the guy, really, but I just had the urge to choke him! (Not really, hyperbole there, I'm overexaggerating, didn't mean it, you get the picture...I was frustrated) I think after all the action of Helm's Deep, Isengard and Pippin snatching the Palantir and having a nice little chat with Sauron...having Sam and Frodo just popping up in the middle of the Emyn Muil just ruffled my feathers a wee bit. Then again, there was a switch earlier on between Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn to Pippin and Merry, but I didn't really notice it as much as I did this one. I should stop ranting, eh?

How do I do it? I don't. I have trouble with it, thus I try to avoid it. Before, when I was simply writing fanfiction, I found it was quite easy. Now, writing serious fantasy, I don't want to. But I know I have to sooner or later because I just left two of the main characters behind in a place where something really important is going to happen, at the same time when five of the other main characters go off on their mission. (I'm trying to give away any names or places for the people at fww) However, switching perspectives within the party is quite easy. Going from Deomer to Aven is my fave switch, because I like to see how the Elf would see it compared to the human. *shrugs* Am I making any sense, or am I just babbling? Bah, that'll teach me to miss breakfast, I can't think clearly. lol. smilies/tongue.gif

Starbreeze

06-20-2002, 02:29 PM

can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Yeah, me too. For my exams - becuase I had to revise, I had to stop writing for a while, now I try and pick it up and I find I don't know where I am. Its like in a video when you go out to get a drink, and you come back and don't know who everyone is. Or when you're ill for a week and you go back to school/work and find that everything has changed. Sometimes I wonder if the people in my story don't have a life of their own - they sure write the story by themselves! I wonder how Tolkien found this - with such long stories he must have had the problem of loosing the thread, yet the final result shows no sign of loosing track - even after numerous drafts you can still see the joins in my story. smilies/frown.gif

Grr, I really hate my computer. I had this whole nice big reply all typed out, then when I go to hit "Add Reply" Computer crashes. Grr.

That happens to me a lot too.

Saxony Tarn

06-20-2002, 06:19 PM

Laie-- why thank you! i thought so! B)

to the reasonably new member who asked about getting into more than one character's thoughts w/o confusing the reader -- may i suggest you zoom in on one character at a time and change the zoom when the stress shifts. Thus, you're in only one head at a time, but you're in more than one character's head during the story. (it's hard at first but gets easier with practice. i used this for a romance -- depending on which of the characters was in the proverbial hot-seat at any given time, that's whose internal angst i eavesdropped on.)

It should probably be noted that Tolkein apparently never got into the characters' inner thoughts much if at all. Did it get in the way of the action? Or did he want us to speculate (and therefore left us ample room) ?? Or did he just not find that as interesting as the action?

Your guess is as good as mine!

s.t.

|_|) <-- skoal!

littlemanpoet

06-20-2002, 08:05 PM

Saxony Tarn: I enjoyed the internal dialogue. Good stuff! You really do know how to get into a character. I like Denethorsson. Nice touch.
It should probably be noted that Tolkein apparently never got into the characters' inner thoughts much if at all. Did it get in the way of the action? Or did he want us to speculate (and therefore left us ample room) ?? Or did he just not find that as interesting as the action?
Wow, ST, that's worthy of a thread all its own. I wonder if it's already been discussed on some thread over the last 2 years? Hmmmm.

Lily Tussle: There are tricks of the trade, I suppose, but I don't know that I'm any kind of expert. ST's advice seems to me to be as good as any. One thing I might suggest is that your characters are known for using different vocabulary sets, or if you draw the characters clearly enough, the kinds of things they say to themselves should be different enough from each other so the reader is clear.
Since Tolkien didn't get inside characters' heads much, it's hard to use him as an example. However, he did do something like it. I remember reading in the Two Towers how he comments omnisciently about the nature of Sam's thinking, the kinds of tendencies he exhibited in terms of Gollum and Frodo. So that's another way.
As for my way, I have two brothers who are really different from each other; one strong, cool, in command, seeking adventure - the other weak, sensitive, self-pitying, wanting badly to measure up but not knowing how to; they even see the world differently; the strong one sees vivid colors, sees blue jays, crows, goldfinches, squirrels, etc.; whereas the younger weaker sees 'some bird', 'lots of trees', and the world is either black, white, or gray to him. This may seem a bit over the top, but I try to be careful how I describe it, but suggesting and evoking - that is, showing, rather than telling (as I'm doing here). smilies/wink.gif

By the way, I think I'm going to stick with my strategy for interlacing, which is not very different from ST's. But I don't intend to become stuck to a day by day switchover. And where the action speeds up, the switchovers become more frequent. One thing that I think Tolkien didn't do, or need to, but should be done in general when using interlacing, is to tie the threads together at the climax and show the pattern that has been weaved in the denouement. That denouement part of it is the one that still escapes me.
So here's a new question which may actually be an old one - HOW DO YOU END A STORY? Here's the problem: it's simply not possible to tie up all loose strings. Even Tolkien had to let Frodo and Bilbo and Gandalf go over the sea without telling us what will happen to them. Thus, as my signature keeps reminding me, the Road goes ever on and on. So what governs which loose strings get tied up and which ones don't?

Happy Writing!

Laiedheliel

06-20-2002, 10:31 PM

HOW DO YOU END A STORY?--LMP

Thank you, LMP, for asking this one and giving me an oppertunity to vent. But before I do, I am going to incorperate Tolkien into this thread and say that I rather enjoyed his method of interlacing between the broken Fellowship, though the Helm's Deep/Frodo and Sam switch did kinda frustrate me also...

In my head, I have a climax all made up, an ending and tying up of plot threads all laid out and ready, but it is not down on paper yet. I know how the story is going to end, I think, but I just can't really get there. The characters are giving me problems, my environment is being disagreeable, it's just not working. GAH!! It is so freaking frustrating to have an ending and not know how to end it. Does that make sense? I hope so, it is reallly late. smilies/smile.gif I also feel better now.

Thinhyandoiel

06-20-2002, 11:17 PM

How do you end a story?

I have no idea. Honestly, I can't see that far ahead yet. I don't even know what the enemy's name is yet. It's as much a mystery to my characters as it is to me. I know a sort of rough sketchy outline on how I'm going to tie the loose ends up when it's over, but I honestly don't know how it's going to end. I should start thinking about that soon, I'm guessing.

With Tolkien, I think it was easier for him to decide. He had a destination. Destroy the Ring, Go home. But then there was Saruman to deal with, kill him, live on. Having Frodo and Bilbo and Sam and...all of the Fellowship minus Aragorn and Boromir (for obvious reasons) sail to the West sort of wrapped it all up. He did a great job, and I think it was made easier because he had a goal. Does anyone know what their goal is yet? I'm still working mine out.

littlemanpoet

06-21-2002, 08:51 AM

Thanks for the sympathizing, Laie and Thin. I did write all the way through the climax and the denouement once, but I'm really dissatisfied. I do have a goal, but things never work out quite the way it seems like they were supposed to. Who would have thought that it would be Gollum that ultimately makes sure the Ring fell into the Crack of Doom? (pretty nice segue, eh? smilies/biggrin.gif ) My problem is that certain characters are very important and the first run through my story shows that the importance of my wizard, for example, never made it into the story. Now, does that mean I have a sequel, or that my story has a major flaw? I think both are true, but that means I have work to do to excise the flaw while leaving room for the sequel - which, by the way, has already been written some. Okay, I admit it: I have a trilogy or at least a duology (if that's a word). So much to write, so little time! Not really. Half a life time, probably - uh oh, I'll spare you all the melancholic thoughts... Anyways, I have a gut feeling that if I follow the line of each character that needs to be developed, while maintaining a page-turner type of grip to the story, then the END should reveal itself - maybe a lot later - or sooner - than I expect. Anybody else on Endings?

Saxony Tarn

06-21-2002, 10:43 AM

Thanks LMP! :: pats self on back :: w/ regards to him addressing himself by a patronymic, almost in a drill-sergeant sort of way, just seemed like something he'd do. i'd like to think i've done a good job of infiltrating his head (snuck in much the way the Ring did B) )

On interlacing -- exactly -- i'd have to dig Ace of Cups out of the bookshelf to check, but the camera shifts as the plot shifts, it's just that the chapters for the most part encompass the doings of the day.

On ending -- ah, well, with regard to Bor' in Purgatory anyway, as i very likely mentioned earlier in the thread after one too many mugs, i have a few good ideas in mind, and was planning to let the folks who volunteered to "test-read" the tale vote on Boromir's fate (and i'd total up the votes and construct an ending with the input, ranging from "let him keep his new life" to "put him back in the waterfall")Personally, i'd like him to transcend out of Purgatory and move on to the next phase of existence, but i don't know... has he demonstrated to the readers that he's learned something from this life? (if not, well, he may be stuck there for quite some time...)

As far as tying up loose ends goes, that's why i'll take this opportunity to thank Tolkein for doing all that extra work, as the appendices pretty much helped write this tale -- kept me on track chronologically as far as who was where when (very important) and kept me from dropping possible uncomfortable encounters... he just got reconciled w/ the other Hobbits, where it is now. (Now everybody believes Pippin!)

Which was quite a thought experiment -- how WOULD Sam and Frodo have reacted? i'd like to think i did them justice too...

But that's the whole essence of a "what-if" tale!

s.t.

|_|) <-- character-evolution moment-of-truth staring me in the face to be written tonight. i need this drink!

NazgulNumber10

06-21-2002, 11:17 AM

wohoo page 9. congrats guys.
|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
write on, it's what I love in life and Last night I thought up a little quote
IF you give up what you love in life, you may as well give up life entirely
I like that one
smilies/evil.gif

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

Lila Bramble

06-21-2002, 03:38 PM

smilies/biggrin.gif Congrats everyone, we made it to page 9! When I first came we were back at page 7! I'm proud to be a writer of serious fantasy along with the rest of ya! smilies/smile.gif

Saxony Tarn

06-21-2002, 04:41 PM

yes, and we've managed to keep this venue fresh and new for this long! Hmm... let's see... what haven't we dissected yet...

if my fellow creatures of the graveyard will pardon "Me and my Ego" for a bit (still coming down off the high induced by LMP's opinion of my little sample of story B) ) let me toss this one out for all who've written (or are writing) fanfic, it's definately Tolkein-related:

Which of his characters are easiest to "borrow", from an authorial perspective? As in, whose heads are easier to get into, whose eyes easiest to see through?

This is different than "who's easiest for the reader to empathize with", given the wide range of tastes evident in board postings (gotta expect some folks to root for the Orcs, Gollum, Sauron, the Witch-King etc.) Who's easiest to write new lines for?

(although i get to take a stab at several major and minor borrowed characters, i figure my vote for Easiest Head to Infiltrate" is fairly obvious!)

s.t.

|_|) <-- the beer flows ever on and on...

Lila Bramble

06-22-2002, 01:51 PM

Saxony Tarn, I would have to say Samwise Gamgee.

His character is presented without any flaws for a hidden one, and, unlike the others, he actually DOES have character development.

Sam is an honest one who dosen't try to hide the truth, and isn't afraid to share his opinion. Therefore, its safe to do lots of things with him.

Does anyone agree?

Laiedheliel

06-22-2002, 02:38 PM

*raises her hand and waves it in the air* Oh, me! Also, I would have to say Merry and Pippin. They are more of the 'common' Hobbit, and their personalities are easy to see and work with. They are two very straight forward characters. smilies/smile.gif

Lila Bramble

06-23-2002, 09:57 AM

Yes, Merry and Pippin and Sam seem to be pretty easy to control. Some one say the hobbits, but it's not true for Frodo, since he barely says anything and is rather mysterious, and you don't get to see through his eyes anywhere in the book.

I belive you should run only if you are being chased.

-Casey (Elijha Wood), the Faculty

Lily Tussle

06-24-2002, 07:20 PM

I'd have to say that any of the not-so-major characters would be easiest because they don't speak as much and you don't get to know them as well you do the main characters. So, if you wanted to, you could take them on a little character-developement ride and make them whatever you want with out having to worry about ruining what Tolkien makes of them.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: Lily Tussle ]

Naaramare

06-25-2002, 10:32 AM

It seems I'm a bit behind . . . ^^

On Endings: I tend to like to have a definite end to my stories. A sort of "and they all settled down and lived happily ever after", as Bilbo said. Even when my stories have a more tragic ending--the main characters die/what have you--I still have an ending, a sense that what the rest of the world did was to get on with their lives.

On Borrowing Characters: For me, it's always been a toss-up between Sam, Merry and Eowyn. Sam, I'm agreeing with the people above: he has the most overt character development in the story. Merry, I've always had a sense of kinship with (Merry being the short form of my real name . . .^~) and Eowyn because her motives and feelings always made sense to me.

Elenna

06-25-2002, 10:59 AM

On Endings: I myself like to have a definite ending to the STORY, but not to the CHARACTERS. This is an idea I got from Tolkein. He ended the story of the Ring, but what happened to some of the characters was kind of left open.

can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Ummm, no, I must admit I can't do that. I always end up saying things like "Oh, well, what if HE died instead of HIM?" or something like that.

Lila Bramble

06-25-2002, 03:04 PM

Yes, Eyown has a strong sense of right and is a determined person, easy to use, though I haven't finsihed reading the series, so I haven't seen a whole lot of her yet (she hasn't killed the Nazgul yet, barrowdowns gave it away for me).

And also I agree that the not-so-major characters are somewhat easy to use, but I thought we were talking about THE main characters. I usually bring back people that weren't very important and give them a big role (read my fanfiction!).

But can someone please tell me...does Beregond or Baranor die? I remember I used a character before I finished the book, and they ended up dieing, and everyone got mad at me for it! smilies/tongue.gif

Also, I too like a good ending, but I usually don't write them! I leave a cliffhanger on the book until the next one (always has to be a sequel!), and so far I have 5 back-to-back fanfiction-novels planned out. It starts with 'Master of the Red Pearl', posted here at the downs.

I usually tell what happens to the characers, and if their death is important, I'll skip through time a little bit to make things interesting.

Saxony Tarn

06-25-2002, 03:19 PM

Lila -- i really ought not to spoil it for you, but Beregond survives to come back for the sequel (although he gets to sweat for a bit. fair disclosure; where mine is stopped in its progress, that trial is about to take place, so yeah, Beregond is sweating bullets right about now, and so is his family. What kind of King is Aragorn, excuse me, Elessar going to be? We'll know soon enough. Now stop stalling for time, Bor', just put the darned purple shirt on and get your ranking-witness-to-the-crime posterior downstairs. When royalty summons, it's a good idea to assume they mean business, and chances are Aragorn won't think you're being too presumptuous. Then again...)

alas, i see no flicker at all of his father Baranor in my gazing crystal. Perhaps you're thinking of his son Bergil instead (who also survives to come back for the sequel)

BTW -- FIVE segments of an ongoing saga about your mischievous magical Hobbit lass (with options on Merry and the lads)? Woof! Go you! Do you plan to post all of them here?

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and liters, and this one's for you...

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

Lila Bramble

06-25-2002, 03:38 PM

Oh my God, Saxony Tarn! Someone I've talked to on the downs whose actually read my fanfic?! Awesome!

And yes, though the posting is going slow, I have all the first series done! I'm almost done the second series, too!

I've used Beregond, but you're saying Baranor is gone? Darn, I'll have to rewrite some of my stuff! A lot of it, actually if it's true! Would it be okay to use him?

Also, I'm drawing pictures of my characters on elfwood, too. You might wanna check out my page at http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/l/i/lila10/lila10.html, but my pics of Lila aren't up yet.

Oh, another ill fortune brough to me by this danmed staff? How could i not have guessed?!

-Lila

P.S: And no, Lila Bramble isn't my real name. I don't give it out!

Cathelm

06-25-2002, 04:08 PM

I am very new to the forum, so please forgive me for answering the original questions.

I would like to write my own fantasy, but right now I'm just writing a fanfic about the blue wizards. I try not to copy Tolkien, although I did have to reread the chapter on Lothlorien before I could write about it.

I've been writing this for 2-3 months. The biggest pitfalls yet is not having enough criticism to judge my writing by and not having the unfinished tales with me to make sure I'm still following the storyline. I hope I don't copy Tolkien too much, but since I'm using his characters, it's kinda hard to avoid some things.

I'd never illustrate, except for the front cover. It ruins your perception of the book. If you have very bad descriptions, then please put in some pictures to help readers out.
I wish I had my own world to write about... I'm still working on it, but I don't want to be a copycat or too cheesy. Right now, I sort of have a different world on earth, magic in your own backyard kind of thing. I need to get a better picture of it first. Until then, I'll just finish my own tale of one of Tolkien's unfinished tales. I'm only 12, so I still have some time.

Thanks for letting me post this! I really enjoy reading other writer's opinions!

Here's a small part from my fanfic, Pallando and Alatar:

?Do you know that it is rude to knock people over, stranger?? Alatar inquired of the bearded man.

?Why don?t you go tell Groror the Horror that,? he replied, dusting himself off. ?Oh, I?m going to have so many bruises!?

?Stop complaining and explain yourself,? Alatar snapped. ?We have places to go, and it would be most kind of you if we had some assistance.?

?Oh yes, of course. I am Farin the Young, currently of Moria. The Horror might get me kicked out soon??

?Please, just get to the point,? Pallando said.

?Okay, okay. Groror caught me spyin? on his conversation with this lady and? oh, you don?t want to hear about that. Anyway??

?Get on with it!? Alatar?s patience was running very low.

Cathelm

06-25-2002, 04:10 PM

Sorry about the question marks. Still not sure why it does that... They're mostly quotation marks and periods, so if you're confused, that's why.

Lila Bramble

06-25-2002, 05:07 PM

smilies/smile.gif Welcome, Cathelm. I know how you feel, I'm fairly new here, too. I did make up my own land and world and people, but I feared it was much too close to the layout of Hyrule of the Legend of Zelda, and too much of a leech off Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', so I destoryed the document.

Don't worry about fanfiction, becuase it's not really copying off of Tolkien's work. And it's nice to see fellow 12 year olds out here, truly.

You musn't worry about your physical age, for people only judge you for how you old you act.

-Something I made up about myself after people thought I was 22.

Saxony Tarn

06-25-2002, 05:44 PM

Yes, Lila -- actually, wasn't i the one who invited you to this forum? B)

More power to you if you use Baranor -- give the man more of a role than just someone's patronymic honorable mention. (seeing what diabolical deeds i've done w/ a certain cut from the cast, i really oughta talk, eh?)

Welcome Cathelm; we love young apprentice writers! (not that i'm a journeyman myself) Post early and often!

|_|) <-- here is your official AYWSF mug, which we'll probably have to fill only with "soft" drinks for you for awhile yet, but fill with your favorite virtual beverage, again, early and often.

s.t.

** waitaminit -- Lila -- you're only 12?! **

(thinking back over theme of opening salvo of your fanfic) Uff da! (filling virtual mug w/ virtual root beer float & taking good stiff drink) wow -- i'd have guessed you were at least twice that... B)

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

Lila Bramble

06-25-2002, 06:03 PM

smilies/smile.gif Heh, see? Everyone thinks I'm in my twenties, and well, I'm 13, I'm just used to saying 12, but as my quote says, it dosen't really matter, you can never be too young to write serious fantasy!

And yes, I was wondering what you were called in the disscussions, Saxony Tarn! I finally know now that it's you! I don't really understand some of the words you used (now I'm making a fool outta myself...) but I'm guessing it's okay to use Baranor.

I hoope my age dosen't lead you to stop reading my fanfictions, I swear, I write like a 20 year old!

I think I broke something!
-Merry

Saxony Tarn

06-26-2002, 10:23 AM

Oh by the Dead Tree Lila, why would your age make me stop waiting for the next installment?! Wouldn't that be age discrimination? B)

And certainly, go ahead and use Baranor. What words didn't you understand? Am i being too abstract and confusing again? (Happens when that virtual mug gets filled one too many times, i'm afraid... B) )

s.t.

Laiedheliel

06-26-2002, 10:40 AM

Lila's only 13?? Now I don't feel so young! Woo! Go us! I'm only 14.

And I check back, and no one's come up with a new groundbreaking, "How do you handle this?" question? What gives? LoL, it's not like I could come up with them, but I like to answer them. smilies/tongue.gif

Saxony Tarn

06-26-2002, 11:14 AM

hey Laie, i'm trying! Okay, so it's still morning out here, and i'm waiting for that caffeine to take effect! Did you answer my "who's easiest to borrow" question yet?

Okay, here's one that i'm sure's been discussed before but it's always good to hash out:

"Need-to-Know" reader info -- how do you give enough but not too much? (and how well did Tolkein pull this off, or not? i've already described the movie as "everything up to the Council of Elrond is exposition" at least once elsewhere)

One way i've found works is to have a character in the know clue in a character not in the know, say, while they're traveling (or waiting out bad weather or... to use examples from mine)

Back in past pages someone made a comment about putting the history after the opening (and i can't find it but it was up front) i bring this up because i just got asked this question by a new test reader, and want to be sure that i'm giving readers just enough info to keep them curious and yet keep the story interesting and active enough that they'll keep reading to see if they can have that curiosity satisfied. (i mean, the characters' newest party member might not consider certain things a high priority, and thus not ask, or just expect that they'll tell him what he needs to know when he needs to know it, but some readers will probably want to know such things earlier than he learns them!)

Anyone else have any ideas - gripes - good or bad examples? Bad example -- a future sci fi book i read once -- 12 chapters, 8 of which seemed to set scene and introduce characters and plot threads. Conflict didn't really get underway until Ch. 9!! i was on a crosscountry flight, so i was a captive audience in that sense. i swapped that book to a lending library as soon as i landed, in exchange for two more installments of the Destroyer series (cheap whiskey and unfiltered cigarettes for the brain) and feel i got the better of the deal...

|_|) <-- keep those pints comin'!

s.t.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

Lila Bramble

06-26-2002, 11:16 AM

Heh, yea, discrimination is bad. And yup, I'm only 13 smilies/smile.gif. I don't think I've ever seen the word patronymic before smilies/rolleyes.gif

Lol, thinking of it, I think I need some more of whatever that drink is...

|_|) ah, there we go! Good 'ol copy and paste! Well, I guess I should ask a question now, I haven't before.

When writing fanfiction, do you use a character mentioned sometime that was carelessly abandoned earlier in the novel/movie for an important role? Is doing this abandoning Tolkien's original ideas for the important characters?

Also, for original fantasy series, do you take someone from an unimportant role and decide to give them a big part? DO you ever reconsider the way you just left them off and pick them back up again?

Okay, that was my first attempt at asking a question so if it sucked don't get too mad
smilies/wink.gif

Lila Bramble

06-26-2002, 11:22 AM

Sorry for this, I was posting when you posted, Saxony!

It is always very important to give clues to leave the reader curious, if you don't give any, it gets a little boring waiting for the big event.

But it's also important not to give it away, becuase if they know what will happen, what's the use of reading the rest?

I am still lagging behing on my lotr reading, I'm reading 'the Muster of Rohan' of the Return of the King, but after visitng the downs frequently, I know just about how it all plays out, so I find it now extremely boring to read the rest of it.

Saxony Tarn

06-26-2002, 11:29 AM

hmm... while i was cutting that part out of my last post, you were asking this question -- Lila, i'd like to ask you if you'd be interested in test-reading my fanfic, as i've done just that with a few abandoned characters great and small, with flagrant disregard for their original fates (then again, "What-If"s do that) -- i'm interested in your opinion of how i've managed to capture, say, Pippin and your aforementioned Beregond (thus i heartily encourage you to write something about him and am looking forward to reading it)

i'd have send that to you in a Private Message but i don't see the icon come up when you post something -- so i'll have to say it where everyone else can read!

With regards to your question, there is a series that i adore and would love to take it up where the original author left it off, at a point, say, 10 years in the future, where the hero's children are ready to have their own adventures. How do i know if this would alter his plans for his series? i don't. But he did leave that open-ended, and i've got the opening of a tale somewhere at home on a diskette... (LMP -- if that's not suitable FWW material, then i'll keep digging -- but that IS a project where i would strive for eventual publication!)

|_|) <-- raise a glass!

s.t.

Lila Bramble

06-26-2002, 01:16 PM

Heh, that coz I got private messaging disabled.

Yeah, i hate when authors leave off all of a sudden, sometimes I feel like I can just start to write a continuation of their story.

And yes, I would love to proofread your story! That's something (surprisingly) I like to do. I have fun seeing people's ideas of Pippin, and I'd be happy to help with Beregond, though I wasn't exactly sure of how to use him in my story.

What I can say about Beregond is that he's a kid, make him act like one! If the story is after the War of the One Ring, he's probabaly a teenager, but I think it's always kinda fun to have a kid there to just be a kid, maybe Pippin could be his little prank-partner, I usually like Merry as a serious character.

Beregond would be a good person to make immature along with Pippin, since they were friends from the start. Try to get some development with him, maybe getting a little more mature as the story goes on, dragging Pippin with him smilies/wink.gif.

Well, if you have msn, Saxony, you might wanna add me, or contact me at lila_bramble@hotmail.com. If you want, I could send some chapters of 'Master of the red Pearl' for you to proofread for me! It's always good to get your work checked!

Saxony Tarn

06-26-2002, 02:08 PM

Lila -- hate to derail your Amtrak cross-country line of thought, but BERGIL is the kid. Beregond's his father (and Baranor is the grandpa!) And yeah, Bergil gets a good line as well, i must confess...

i'd be happy to proof your stuff -- heck, after LMP invited me to FaerieWordweavers, i'm honored -- and i'll be contacting you w/ the location of the opening bits of "Trust Me" by e-mail. And now, since it looks like you & i are ruling the table, i'm going to nurse my drink for a bit & see if we can't get anybody else to gnaw on these topic bones or hunt down some new ones...

s.t.

|_|) <-- the beer flows ever on and on...

littlemanpoet

06-27-2002, 10:09 AM

Hey ho it's me again, been gone rummaging through the early pages of this thread for a bit (since I'm no fanfic writer). Anyway, Lila had a good question about picking up a character after putting it down and expanding the role. I guess I'm constantly doing that - which is one of the reasons I've written a whopping SEVEN revisions of the same story and am now on number EIGHT. Nothing to be proud of, by the way, just goes to show I can't seem to get it right after 15 years (more to it than that of course but it's a tangent anyway). Constantly doing that, I was saying, because I just get interested in different characters because I see them in my mind as whole personalities that I haven't really gotten to know yet, so I write about 'em.

As I mentioned, I've been rummaging through the early pages and I stumbled upon a really cool question from Nar that kind of got overlooked by everyone because she didn't really ask it as a question, just threw it out there (which was coo). It's this: do you work with any themes? what are they? and how do you go about it?

My answer is (constantly changing but i've been saying that already) currently that I'm working with a whole bunch.

Lessee:
-what's it like when two brothers go through life one getting all the breaks and the other getting none?
or
-what if all the mythologies were true (i mentioned this before but it's at the heart of my story)?
-what if good and evil are not so clearly defined by type of organization/organism but instead by characters within the organizations? My Society appears evil as a whole at first, but little by little it turns out to be a mixed bag. Same's true for my Faerie-land.

Saxony Tarn

06-27-2002, 10:40 AM

welcome back, LMP -- gosh, that's deep (although not quite as deep as some of your other threads, where i need those fabled black CIA helicopters to airlift me out!)

Themes -- hmm... let's see...

1) changing of the guard (one generation takes over the reins from the other, often w/ growing pains)
2) the paranormal intrudes on the real, and the characters savvy to it have to confront & correct the situation (w/o endangering those unaware)
3) hmm... what was #3... i'll probably remember later when the caffeine kicks in. Oh yeah, that was it -- throwing two seemingly incompatible characters together & watching what alchemy results (or doesn't) -- often resulting in at least one of them (if not both) undergoing some radical change)

Guess if you looked hard enough you could find all of these in the current project -- in addition to the Purgatory angle, which just arose in the writing and made me grin so much i decided to see how far i could run with it. Decidedly UNlike LMP's other thread where he asks about Tolkein consciously editing in more of his religious outlook (despite scant presence in the main book of organized religion as we'd know it here for the characters, at least as far as i can find) and which, i might add, is a thread so deeply philosophical that you'll need an airlift to get out. Deep spiritual thinkers, explore if you dare...

Anyone else?

|_|) <-- raise a glass!

s.t.

(Hmm... ya know, i'd like to think Tolkein would have gotten a chuckle out of my sending one of his characters to Purgatory... B) i know i've been getting enough chuckles from this hypothetical character development odyssey. Now was that, redefine yourself, or re-define yourself? mmHmmm...)

NazgulNumber10

06-27-2002, 10:52 AM

nice one lmp. I do not clearly define good or evil in my stories etheir. I leave the battle to the subconious of my characters. Anyways, none of us are good or evil, we are but shades of gray in a sky of ash.
as for the brothers thing, thats me and my little brother in simple words. He gets all the breaks and i get shunned. I think it's harder being the older one. You have no one to guide you and yet you must teach your younger siblings and be a third parent( no offence to you who have 1 or 0)
oh well enough of my ramblings
smilies/evil.gif

Lila Bramble

06-27-2002, 04:15 PM

Fianlly LMP, nice to see you visiting us from the grave! You left me alone to ask a question!

And yes, writing can never really be perfected, it's something you should always work on, no matter how good you are!

And that's the same with me, I can hardly drop a character after introducing them. They have to come back and do something. I create personalities for every character, and I like to work with them, so I can't just drop a person.

In answer to Nar's earlier question, which I don't even think I was here for, I try not to use themes. I have genres (but dosen't everyone?) but I don't intend for a theme, I let the story flow, I just try to write something I think would get people interested. Most of my stories are things I made up in my head, little adventures to think about when I'm bored, and I just started writing them out. That's where ALL my stories come from!

Maybe one day I'll work with themes, but I don't like to be morally or trying to prove something. I like easy-going stuff where you don't have to think too much ( smilies/smile.gif) though my stuff is usually a big web of intwined and complicated story lines annd events.

Celestial

06-28-2002, 09:29 AM

This topic is very informative. There are a lot of writers here on this forum. Good Luck to you all.

Starbreeze

06-28-2002, 12:50 PM

Welcome Celestial!
I have a whole load of stuff to post here...hang on while I go and get it...

Starbreeze

06-28-2002, 01:23 PM

Did someone mention themes?

Ok, here are the themes or issues I have used already, or have planned to use.

*Who I am - sense of person
*Ancient spirits/earth energies/powers
*Light against Dark (rather like one of Tolkien's themes)
*God (as in who, where, what, why, how type of thing - people trying to find out more)
*Preserving the world from destruction
*The human vices of violence, greed and hatred
*Xenophobia
*class system
*growing up without parents
*growing up in a large family
*Betrayal and redemption
*The importance of friendship (again like Tolkien)
*Cruelty to animals
*Prejudice against those who don't conform

There, I think thats about it.

Now, I have some questions of my own to ask, I hope they haven't been asked already, I'm a little behind, having only read up to page 5 properly.

Firstly, are your places similar to any on Earth. For example - Tolkien's Shire is supposed to be similar to England.

Secondly, How civilised to you make the people that inhabit your world? I would say that Tolkien's characters were sort of around 13th Century in English terms.

Thirdly - if you have used elves how have you portrayed them? Terry Pratchett portrays elves as forces of evil, greedy and malicious, but Tolkien portrays them as a gentle and advanced people.

There, thats me done for now - I think.

littlemanpoet

06-28-2002, 03:30 PM

Anybody know any Gaelic (Celtic) or Greek? I've decided to name my two great dragons. They actually already had names, but I'm not
satisfied with them anymore. "Wrath Wyrm" and "Fury Wyrm" are just not doing it for me anymore. I'm thinking for the evil wrath wyrm, something of a mix of Greek, Latin, and Germanic and the phrase, "Doom-Sayer" or "Speaker-of-Despair". And for the Fury Wyrm something Celtic, like for "Light-Maker" or something. And the names do have to be dragony.

NazgulNumber10

06-28-2002, 03:54 PM

i need a name for my great dragon too. something that rings with the sound of death and rolls with darkness off the tougne.
smilies/evil.gif

Saxony Tarn

06-28-2002, 06:01 PM

a friend of mine who's been running a delightfully engaging RPG that i'm in (Dwarven Sniper extraordinaire, figure that one out) has many dragons with various clever names, unfortunately, they're all in the vulgar tongue and trade off the AD&D dragon concepts of colors and elements, so i doubt they'd be the type of inspiration you're looking for. B( Oh well, back to the drawing board...

s.t.

(off to toil over the guest book for the fanfic project beta site -- come on guys & gals, while my back is turned you all should have come up with enough suitable draconian appellations for LMP to get us to another page. We'll be a writers' resource by then! Go us!)

littlemanpoet

06-28-2002, 08:42 PM

Nazgulnumberten:

I was playing around with words for 'death' in Greek, Latin, and German. Respectively they are Thanos, Mortus (or some kind of ending) and Tot. I played around with it and came up with 'Thanomort', or 'Morthantos' or 'Morthanos' - or pick a different ending. I won't be using any of them because death isn't quite what I'm working toward for my dragon. I also know the Hittite for death, but I don't feel like I can part with it because it winds up playing a key part in my story. Ah what the heck, it's public domain.

Hittite for death: akias. Doesn't it just sound like it? Ack! Akiamort. Totakias. Thanak. Ooooh. Thanak. Huh? Hey? or Thanakon
Thanakos Thanakias. Take your pick if you like.

lmp

NazgulNumber10

06-28-2002, 08:54 PM

thanx lmp, i'll think up something. or mabye use the name generator. i know elvish like i know spainish.
je ne compende pas l'espanoil.
je parle un peu francais
smilies/evil.gif

NazgulNumber10

06-28-2002, 09:40 PM

I just thought of another thing that ticks me off. I mentioned a project that my class had to do for english were we had to write a story. And onlike most, mine conveid real emotion. It was sad and bleek, and masterful in describtion, It was wought of my inner thought and felling. My work is my soul. But the kids didn't care. All the girls were too busy talking about "Jen's story" and "how good it is". Pleaze. Everything Jen wrote deals with 9/11. She is a minipulative leech. It is so easy to evote emotion by using that. And what do you know about her story? IT SUCKS!!! can't see come up with her own ideas? I guess not.
smilies/evil.gif

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

Starbreeze

06-29-2002, 05:22 AM

Wow I feel ignored! :P

Wow, strong feelings Nazgul - quick - write something down - anger helps!

Lila Bramble

06-29-2002, 09:40 AM

Nazgul, whoah, strong feelings there. I know how you feel; "Oh look, she's my friend, she must be a good author! She wrote about something I liked, her story is the best!"

I remember I past in a book report in spanish dialect and I got a C because my teacher said it must be in mexican dialect. I hate living in Mexico!

NazgulNumber10

06-29-2002, 11:07 AM

thanx guys and congrats on ten pages. I did write something too. I am now on the 2nd chapter where, my main character's dark side comes out. Earlier that day, at a cermoniy of knighthood, he was exiled for lacking a knowledge of his true enemy. His king was an old, senile, fanatic who weilded a sword with the power to peer into one's soul.
so, he must leave the next moring, but he has other plans. That night the plans an escape, and also tries to murder his life-long nemisis, who he placed the blame on for his exile.
it's coming along pretty good.
this rounds on me
|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
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littlemanpoet

06-29-2002, 12:27 PM

Oops, Starbreeze, I meant to answer your questions but got all excited about the language thing and then it got so late...

Anyhow:
my story takes place in Michigan, my home state, and in Greenland, which is the dimensional equivalent to where the tower is in my land of Faerie. My Michigan venue takes to college campuses I know really well and kind of glues them together side by side to create my university. And then north of town winds up being taken from what was actually north of the place I lived when I was in high school. I don't know why there, except it just seemed like my imagination grabbed for it when I needed an unpopulated, dreary landscape.

As for civilization, my faerie realm is home to immortals and those humans they 'take' valhalla style from the earth dimension. So they keep a medieval to prehistoric kind of feel there. The immortals themselves cross the boundaries between dimensions at will, and bring back with them whatever they like, which means no technologies from the last 3 centuries. But they do know what's going on and know about jets, cars, and the rest well enough to talk about them - which they don't much because they don't care except for how it affects them - such as railroads, but that's in the story and I don't want to give it away - suffice it to say railroads have a negative effect on my Faerie realm, not unlike what they did to native american life, I suppose.

My immortals aren't elves. They're gods and goddesses, or at least deemed so by humans. That's because I'm working with the question of "what if the mythologies were true?". But my immortals run the gamut, as do Tolkien's elves, from dark and evil to fair and light.

Good questions, Starbreeze!

Thinhyandoiel

06-29-2002, 06:20 PM

Whoo! I have some catching up to do! (Again...Grr.)

Themes?? Well, let's see.
So far I've noticed themes just sort of develop on their own in my story. I had planned on one, that had to do with discrimination, but it's pretty much minor now. Others include:

Friendship,
the good ol' Good vs. Evil
Betrayal and Redemption
Destiny/Fate
Sacrifice

That's all I can think of.

Now, to your questions, Starbreeze.
Firstly, are your places similar to any on Earth.

I grew up in a land of plains, mountains, and forests. Mostly plains though. As a result, most of my land is v a s t emptiness. There are three main "countries" in my story. One resembles my own homeland of Prairies and Plains, the other two I guess I was thinking of my trip to Europe three years ago. To put it simply, it's pretty. smilies/biggrin.gif

Secondly, How civilised to you make the people that inhabit your world?
Depends what race you're talking about, and what country really. Actually, I have alot to say about this one, and I don't have much time so I'll come back to it later.

Thirdly - if you have used elves how have you portrayed them?
I got Elves! smilies/smile.gif Portrayed them? Like Tolkien, I guess. As the good guys. However, they are not the ones saving the world everytime there's a crisis. After the first great "crisis" they disbanded from their first realm to three more realms. They're isolationalist, and have strict laws regarding humans. (Let's put it this way for Aelori, there'd be a big sign that would say: "Humans are forbidden." And for Soli, there would be a sign that would say: "WELCOME HUMANS!!" smilies/biggrin.gif) I won't get into the other two realms. My Elves are the "good guys" but they don't want to get involved if they don't have to. Better just let the humans deal with it. smilies/wink.gif

Lila Bramble

06-29-2002, 06:32 PM

LMP, your story sounds interesting! To everyone here, www.elfwood.com (http://www.elfwood.com) has Wyverns Libraby, a place to post serious fantasy! Its great! I like to potray elfs as Tolkien does, either that, or fighters with a soft side

NazgulNumber10

06-29-2002, 06:45 PM

acually i wrote a 4 page essay on elves for no reason at all. i'll try to sum it up here. my elves are between 6'2 and 7'. they are tan in complexion and of muscular bulid. they grow as humans do untill the age of 25, were their groth slows to a near halt. average lifespan is about 780 years. I also have 3 archtypes of elves the firist are the frost elves of the frozen forest of Emnag. they are the smallest and least known. the next are the night elves of Elmwake. they are taller than the frost elves and have very pale complextions. as you probably figured out, they are nocturnal.
the last, and best known type is the elves of antlerous and leijia. Antlerous is an island of forested mountains and lushus valleys. It is the home land of Kaius Arrowind, one of my main characters. It is also the home of many hunters and theives, which is how it earned the nickname " rouge state". Lejia is the royal provence of the elves. The three kinds have no contact with each other. Lejia is also home to the blue elf, the emperor. Currently that is Alkmir, son of Alkmin. He rules over leijia and anterous. Leijia is mosty plains with trees typically 300 ft tall.
The first elves where born of gialari, the mother tree, with was the first living thing to be born of the grey world, and in death, gave birth to all the plants of the realm. Yet gialari was burt to ash by the great dragon, born of ski, who i have yet to name. Feels good to get that off my chest.
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NazgulNumber10

06-30-2002, 09:00 AM

i envy you people. you travel, you see the world, you go to all the ends of the earth.
i hadly ever go anywhere. Yet i have crossied many a league in my realm. I have climed it's mountains and swam in it's rivers. i have walked in it's forests and green valleys. I know it's golden feilds and hills like the back of my hand. I have conquered its doungens and it's towers. I have sat in it's halls and looked out from it's castles. Even the cracked earth and stagnant pools of the black watse were at my grasped. it is my world, and my home.
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Starbreeze

06-30-2002, 09:03 AM

Oops, Starbreeze, I meant to answer your questions but got all excited about the language thing and then it got so late...

Ok smilies/smile.gif I was just wondering if something that happened on another board was happening here - I posted, and I could see it, but no one else could. It was quite funny - I thought I was being ignored and when I PMed the board admin they didn't even know I was on!

Anyway, looking at your answers there is a pattern emerging - from what I can tell most people are using a place or world that is familiar to them - its the same with me. I wonder if Tolkien had more similarities to familiar places that the Shire.

I'll be back to write more in a minute but I've got to restart my comp...

Nimiriel

06-30-2002, 09:22 AM

Hi guys. I'm new on the Downs so I havn't read this conversation through, I will just answer the first questions.

Yes I do write serious fantasy, at least that's what I think.

I have only been working with this story for about a year, but before that I have been working with fantasy since I was... 12 I think (I'm 16 now).
My story is mostly inspiried by Tolkien, the way elves are and so on, but I don't think myself that I have copied his stories.
I'm working on a elven language and there I have met some problems, but I have dealt with it, and right now it's working out just as I want it to.

I think that was all for now, if I have missed anything please tell me and I will answer any queations you might have. (oh my, that last thing sounded very selfish, I didn't mean to)

Starbreeze

06-30-2002, 10:21 AM

Nimiriel, welcome! I am glad you have been able to overcome the problems you have faced.

Nazgul#10 - wow! That is exactly how I feel about my world!

Lila, thanks for the link!

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

NazgulNumber10

06-30-2002, 10:30 AM

wow, starbreeze, cool. it's just a little place i escape to. im revising a map ( and it's a big one ). hey wait this is my 100th post! Yeah go me !!
http://216.40.201.38/otn/party/beerchug.gif

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[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

Nimiriel

06-30-2002, 10:32 AM

Thank you Starbreeze. Well I haven't been working on the story for very long, so it has only been small problems, the big ones will surely come later.

Nimiriel

06-30-2002, 10:49 AM

I am, as I told you, working on an elven language, and I need an alphabeth. I'm not good at making new letters, so I thought that maybe one of you could help me.
The letters has to be elegant and beautiful, like the elves, and I need letters for:
a,b,c,d,e,f,g,i,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,t,u,v,y,th,ë,á,é,í,ó ,ú,ý.
I really hope you can help me.

Starbreeze

06-30-2002, 01:00 PM

wow, starbreeze, cool. it's just a little place i escape to. im revising a map

I use my fictional world to escape too. Its currently only the size of Europe. Part of my motivation to make my world as real as possible is so I can escape and feel like I really have left this world behind.

I haven't been working on the story for very long, so it has only been small problems, the big ones will surely come later.

You are right, but if, like me, you read through this thread you will find many of your problems overcome before they even arise.

As for new letters, well, I have been working on a Rune language used by the ancient elfin race which formerly populated my world, and it really is hard. There are so amyn symbols you need, especially if, like me, you don't just want letters, but sounds like sh and ck and th aswell. I wish you luck with it.

NazgulNumber10

06-30-2002, 01:05 PM

hey starbreeze, tell us about your story.
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Starbreeze

06-30-2002, 02:44 PM

My story?! Wow, that would be telling! How much do you want to know? Oh well, I suppose I can tell you the base of my story, as long as you promise not to tell...shhh!

It is set in a world where war has run rampant for centuaries. They have finally found peace and weaponry has been banned. The elfin races of Sheider and Adione once ruled the land but have now departed, because of unrest amongst themselves and because of the growing power of the human race. With them they have taken all magic, and all mythical creatures, of light and dark, unicorns, dragons etc. The few magic creatures that are left fight against the humans but their world is falling apart without magic. It all sounds very simple but there are a lot of twists, betrayal, and suprises. I hope I haven't given away too much. I claim copyright on the above synopsis Copyright J.Old. Its not that I don't trust you guys, its that I don't know who else might be reading this. This is my career at stake here. smilies/smile.gif

Niphredil Baggins

07-01-2002, 08:00 AM

Nimiriel, I think in making letters for a language it's best if:
a)all the letters are planned by the same person
b)the letters are based on some existing alphapet: for example, take some arabic letters, turn then around, twist them, alter them unrecognizable and invent some new ones...

And then ask yourself if you need an alphapet at all, and what for: illustration, map, something else...

As for the theme question:

I have two stories in progress

The themes in Chrystal heart:
- father-daughter relationship
- power and responsibility
- sibling relationships
- different roles of women
- war
- romantic love
- magic and symbols

The themes in 'Dremette':

- A woman raised like a man
- traditions and taboos and their breaking
- tension inside and between nations
- a quest
- a millennial friendship
- dragons
- symbols

NazgulNumber10

07-01-2002, 08:08 AM

themes in my story ( DragonFang )
lies
self battles
abondonment
power of history
cripping hate
conspirise
and a lot of other stuff
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Laiedheliel

07-01-2002, 09:47 AM

Jinkies, with this theme stuff, I feel like I'm already back in English class. smilies/frown.gif

Themes for my story (as well as I can guess):
love/hate
inner struggle
war
racial conflict
innocence

And that's all I can think of for now, any FWW people feel free to correct or add. smilies/smile.gif

O, and congrats on page 10! Woo!l_l)

littlemanpoet

07-01-2002, 11:01 AM

Hey people,

Niphredil brought up an interesting topic for serious fantasy writers on a different thread having to do with "what if the Ring had never been found"; interesting thread in its own right, but onto my quote: Hidden, the ring kept up a fragile balance that nobody was satisfied with... in my point of view, balance is something that starts adventures rather than ends them... for the balance always tips... suddenly...

So my question is: what plot device gets your story going? A tip in the balance of power, as Niphredil thinks, or is it something else? Are there better and worse plot devices? overused and hackneyed ones?

My answer to the question from my own story is: all of my stories get going by breaking a series of taboos, leading to discovery of something totally beyond one's normal experience. Now that I read what I wrote I'm stunned by how Jungian it is. Anybody read his autobiography? Breaking of taboos is all through it. Enough about that aside. Any takers on the main question?

Nimiriel

07-01-2002, 11:19 AM

My first story of 4/5 is actually started by a big and sudden tip in the ballance, time just passes for a while before someone discover this tip. The others are more attached to the main carracter and her life (always a her though it isn't the same her through all 4/5 stories) but maybe it,s some kind of tip in her personally ballance that starts it all, I don't know... yet.

mystra

07-01-2002, 02:51 PM

i am writing a fantasy novel, and anything i come up with that is similar to tolkien, i change. i am trying to avoid him so much, its getting quite difficult! i am using the elves- some will say stealing- but i found some stuff in a book on norse mythology which is similar to lotr, but i figured i could use it if it comes from a different source. im creating the entire world to go with my book, like tolkien did. my head is full of nothing but fantasy and idealistic worlds- its becoming hard for me to face up to reality. i cant distinguish ME or Neremorn- a fantasy world- from our own. somehow i dont think thats healthy! smilies/smile.gif
i have been writing since i was about 9 or 10, but not seriously. i am hoping to publish my current novel in the future. i have been working on it for about 8 months so far, but its mainly planning.
i tell myself that i will be laughed at or put down by critics/other writers/the general public if i show signs of having copied tolkien so i try to be as different as i can. but its too hard to be entirely original when youre dealing with the same sort of subject.

my sincere apologies for my long and exceedingly dull article smilies/biggrin.gif
luv myst

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-01-2002, 02:58 PM

Still working on my basics for my story, so nothing that much yet..

Lila Bramble

07-01-2002, 03:09 PM

Welcome Nimiriel!

About geography, I like RPG lands, big fields, little towns dotted along the way, dirt paths and dust roads, always forests and mountains, and kingdoms as well as lakes.

Also, I have an idea about a work without being a fanfiction. Can you guys tell me what you think?

In an almost water world of Celestia, the fish people, the Meejah, are disgusted that land has risen and some of their own were transferring into their land counter parts, Killia's. Years after, it almost seemed as if they were completely different races, and war is brewing. The Meejah want the world converted back to its original water state, and the Killia's wish to build land over the water. Some of the Killia's evolved into a greater race, the Elfen Ola's, otherwise the Elfs, a race of the Killia's that hold much power and somehow mysteriously long lives. Unlike other Killia's, they actually developed back their immunity to go into water to some amount, though if they spend too long they will just float to the surface and die. Because of they were a greater race than them, the Killia's worship the Elfen Ola's as their Gods, and chose them as their kings and queens.

The Elfen Reb's, also know as the Elfs by the Meejah, were the group of higher developed Meejah. They swam faster and longer with high endurance while developing small amounts of two lungs, letting them stay on the surface momentarily, but they could easily shrivel up. The Meejah too worshiped their higher race and chose them as their authority figures.

The Meejah's kingdom's princess and strongest ruler of the under-water part of Celestia, the Goddess of Grace to the Underworld (which the area was called,) was Princess Kala. The Meejah urged her to begin war by dragging the Killia's largest land piece into the sea.

The biggest leader for the Killia's was Prince Sandata, God of Power to the Land, for he bested all in fight. The others of his race, his father, and all other Elfen Ola's told him now was the best time to use the device they had created and drain part of the water from the Underworld.

The only problem was that Prince Sandata and Princess Kala would meet, and fall in love, meaning disaster for the rest of Celestia…

Okay, it's just an idea, it might not go anywhere.

mystra

07-01-2002, 03:16 PM

hey! thats a really good plot! smilies/biggrin.gif

mine is kinda traditional..... well, its different, but its still a quest to destroy evil. theres actually an awful lot going on, so its divided into 2 books so far. im hoping to do 4 books altogether, as well as a spin-off series.
oh god...... i cant remember the plot! smilies/biggrin.gif

Niphredil Baggins

07-02-2002, 05:01 AM

Well, one of my stories starts with a meeting that will change the lives of those who meet... and their lives are far from insignificant... the balance in this world is between action and serenity, generally humans act and elves ponder, but sometimes things get reversed.

In the other story the beginning is an accident, followed by the downfall of the one who caused it. But the downfall means a new beginning and personal growth. Of course the major events have their roots far in history, when a powerful man gained rule of the world. This was a tip in the balance of power- from independent city-states to an empire.

There are many balances to be tipped:
good-evil
old-new
power (tip results in war/revolution/conquest)
personal mental balance
religious balance

etc etc.

Niphredil Baggins

07-02-2002, 05:08 AM

Overused plot devices?
Well, I personally think that a heroic quest to rid the world of a newly risen evil overlord is used, if not overmuch, at least enough... unless it is written in a fresh way, not in a style copied from others.
I mean stories like this: an ordinary swineherd finds out he is the prince who is prophesied to overthrow a tyrant king. He sets on a journey, makes friends with an elf archer, a teenage thief and an old dwarf, and rescues a princess somewhere by the road.
I don't know if there is a story like this, but if there is, it will have to be really well written for me to read it.

Saxony Tarn

07-02-2002, 11:30 AM

Wow, it's amazing what happens when i go down to the ol' wine cellar to bring up new kegs -- all these new people on the thread! Alright! Fresh perspectives to keep this debate going...

hmm hmm, let me ponder LMP's new topic for awhile -- i can say right off that if the Ring hadn't been found, Tolkien wouldn't have had a story (well, he would have later on, when it was found by some other poor slob) but as for plot tipping points, i'll really have to think...

i got one series of tales where things get kicked off by the narrator buying a car from its former owner, then one day the car starts to talk. And she finds out the owner is a retired secret agent... and his bosses want to make her an offer she can't refuse, and you get the idea where that's headed!

(Or for "Trust Me" -- adventuring party loses fighter, party calls local contact who tips them off to where they can find suitable replacement who's just been cut from cast, party hauls body out of watery grave, and the rest is fan-fic)

Welcome to all the new folks, please accept your official AYWSF pints and toast!

|_|) <-- don't know about your weather but it's HOT on this western shore -- everybody drink cold liquids and stay out of the sun!

s.t.

Lila Bramble

07-02-2002, 04:01 PM

Niphredil, very interesting ideas about kings, princes, dwarfs, and elfs. Its true for the most part, though lotr itself did not involve a prince or princess, and I liked it very much how the heroes were small, almost helpess race of little people rarely even heard of.

For my stories, usually the enemy no one has really heard of. The enemy, whether person or monster (for me it is never a king,) has some relation or knowledge to or of the main characters/party. Usually I set out events long before I write them, then come up with the detail as I write.

In my original fantasy ideas (I rarelr write much besides fanfiction) I like to have a hidden mage, becuase wizardry is so interesting to explore. There must always be stops and long roads ahead, plus big dangers and always set backs. I also like the enemy to be someone either unexpected or an unknown name to much, and slowly the knowledge is spread of this dark being or shadow.

NazgulNumber10

07-02-2002, 04:23 PM

My villan is also sort of an enigma. there are many smaal ones, and the visage of the largest one remains a mystery until later. actually, the main villan is not a beast or man, yet an ancient relic bearing the soul of the great dragon (still nameless). some character's can be their own villans too. i think villany is just in how you perseve it. It's not like in cartoons were they run around going "now lets get those good guys". in the real world those "bad guys" consider them selves good. Good and Bad, such childish terms. every one of us is capable of both, and both are in our nature.
ah, for the dilusional rambling of a pychotic teen. i think i'll end with a qoute from edger allen poe's "the tell tale heart"
Why will you say that I am mad?
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Nar

07-03-2002, 09:53 PM

Nazgul number 10, I liked your description of your land—that’s almost a poem by itself. Throw in some returns and you’ll see what I mean. You do good verse! I agree with you about shades of gray—and a story with plenty of gray is more interesting. I also like an author with compassion for characters—do you feel for your characters? Do you like them? I liked the lost dragon element—good luck on the name. I really like the mother tree giving birth to all the plants.

Lila Bramble, you wrote I try not to use themes. I have genres (but dosen't everyone?) but I don't intend for a theme, I let the story flow, I just try to write something I think would get people interested. Most of my stories are things I made up in my head, little adventures to think about when I'm bored, and I just started writing them out. That's where ALL my stories come from!
Believe it or not, that’s the best way to develop themes! They shouldn’t be planned, they should flow naturally out of the story. You probably have more themes than you know, but you shouldn't worry about that, they won’t bite!

I liked your water and earth conflict a lot—I was thinking, sounds like archetypes of male (earth) and female (water) and the battle of the sexes as a vast war, cool—then I read about the leaders falling in love, great! Suits my take on it. I like the idea of starting a war by pulling a chunk of country into the ocean. That’s a cool idea.

Thanks, Littlemanpoet for bringing up themes again—I forgot about that. I’m going to say more about them.

My themes in my literary stories are sort of endgame themes—characters pushing against the limits of their existence, fighting aging, grief. Aside from some current sorrows I won’t go into, when I was 13 I found a wonderful friend, after being very lonely for a couple of years—almost no one my age read Tolkien back in my time, and here I’d found someone on my street, beautiful and kind, who knew about Frodo! Wow!! She looked kind of like a young Luthien, she had long dark hair and fair skin and she was pretty.. and, no joke, she had leukemia. She and I and another outcast, a brave and cheerful blonde girl whose parents were down on their luck, we walked to school together every morning forming one of those magic circles where you complete each other and each becomes witty and clever when the others are around. So, around Christmas she had a relapse. She died. This was the first time I got this feeling of praying so hard your mind pulls at the universe, trying to turn it from its path … can’t be done. Every morning I’d want her to knock on my door so badly that it seemed the force of my longing would bring her to my doorstep … can’t be done.

That’s my model for entering another world in my fantasy story. That feeling of pulling at reality with your mind because you can’t bear it the way it is. So my characters transition into my other world while in the grip of unrequited love (anyone remember how delusional unrequited love makes you? Your dreams drag reality out of whack, at least your own perception of it. Remember the denial? It’s mindbending!) or unremitting grief.

So let’s discuss the two types of fantasy. Tolkein’s is Immersion Fantasy: Reading the books, you’re in the other, wilder world and you never enter this world. Advantage: it’s hypnotic. Difficulty: writing it requires lots of research or invention to make it authentically detailed. Advantage: great scope for big adventures, sweeping events, big feelings, larger than large characters. Disadvantage: Subtlety is harder. Many-layered characters and complicated situations are hard—the story rarely leaves time, and the big, interesting effects and events tempt writer and reader into neglecting character and the --mmm–dissastisfying facets of existance, like unhappy endings and disappointing people.

We know Tolkien considered writing the other type, with Aelfwine (sp? Sorry) as his sailor to the elf world—but he didn’t take that route. Let’s call the other form Transition Fantasy: part of it in this world, part in the other world. Harry Potter’s a somewhat cartoonish example, Narnia also. Mark Twain’s A Conneticut Yankee is a brilliant example. And serious fantasy writer Littlemanpoet’s story would be another example both stirring and intriguing!

This type is risky to write, because going to the other world is part of every reader’s fantasy. So, you need a very careful and classy set-up or it’s wince-inducing. Complicated characters and an original angle become very important—the character-bar is higher if you’re using admitted ‘real people.’ On the other hand, the temptation to let events drive the story and neglect character may be a little less—though I think Lewis and Rowling succumbed. And while in a real world setting, the writer can use all sorts of complicated attitudes, settings and situations that the reader will immediately understand. I’m getting great comic relief and some good themes from my second lead’s breakout of a nursing home that I would never be able to tap if it was a nunnery—there’s not as much resonance when there’s not as much commonality.

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

NazgulNumber10

07-03-2002, 09:57 PM

thanks

Lila Bramble

07-04-2002, 09:41 AM

Wow, that was long, Nar. Very interesting topic, and I can't belive someone quooted me! But, I never thought of water being girl and earth being man, but it would be alot more interesting...thanks for the idea!

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 10:21 AM

ok, now that i have read nar's article i can fully reply. I'm sorry to her about your friend, but take solice in the fact that i have never known a girl that well, and my only friend who enjoyed tolkien is going to a different high school than me. now back to fantasy. Yes i do care for my characters many of them are based on real people. My main character is based on me. he is isolated and lonely. others don't understand him and his thoughts are of hatred and contempt for another squire. He can't seem to get a break and an outcast among anyone. When his quest begins, unlike frodo, he has no idea what to do. He just wants to survive and from there, bits and pieces come together.
As for type of fantasy, mine is definitly immersation fantasy. I have created maps and story lines to write several four part book seires, 4 (working on a 5th) languages and i timelime that shows tens of thousands of years and events, indexes of names, and started an enciclopedia for it too. i have even recreated many scenes in lego (damn i'm a geek).
I think though, many immersation fantasys have some uniting factors.
1. a fellowship kinda thing. a group of people from many different walks of life who battle a common enemy. Most include a wizard, and elf, and an orphan
2. a battle against an ancient evil. most worlds have had a dark past with the reign of a dark lord (acually mine had no dark lord, but for ages the world lived in fear of a sleeping darkness). Now that dark lord seems to be returning to power and the fellowship must stop it.
thats all i can think of right now, but violating and ignoreing those factors makes for a more intressting novel.
}~NN10~{

Olorin___TLA

07-04-2002, 11:08 AM

Hi, jsut had a very quick glance and noticed the bit about not imitating Tokien - it's hard not to! He seems to have preempeted everything I want to write about!
Case in point, in order to avoid imitating I name my High-Elven-like society the Golden Elves. Due to certain wars, they are forced out of their homes and have to live in the forests with their silvan kindred - so when Golden Elves (so named so as not to rip-off High Elves) move in with the Wood Elves, we get a Golden Wood. Argh! smilies/smile.gif

Lila Bramble

07-04-2002, 12:32 PM

Nazgul, an orphan? Sounds pretty good to have, though i've never really thought about inserting things other than races.

Anyway, I had a stroke of idea! What if the person everyone thought was their main enemy, the one they set out to destroy, was a mistake? And the thing/person was actually in fact a good person, and became a member of the party, and the whole party was feared?

Thinhyandoiel

07-04-2002, 02:23 PM

Nar, I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I've never known that sorrow. Unrequited love though? Yes, that was a biting pain. It was because of that first time though, that most of my personality changed to what it is now.
For those at FWW, mine is obviously immersion fantasy. Though, I have no index of names or encyclopedia like Nazgul does. Thinking about it though. I have a map! smilies/biggrin.gif And your uniting factors as you called them, are quite true I find! The fellowship thing. Just look at any Final Fantasy game, which is definately immersion fantasy, and you get that fellowship factor. Always it's about 5-8 completely different people who complete one another and have a remarkable bond of friendship in the end. That's true with Tolkien (obviously smilies/wink.gif) In the end, you could get no stronger friendship than Legolas and Gimli, Sam and Frodo, Merry and Pippin (though that one was already there, now wasn't it?). My story doesn't have more than three races. Mortal humans, Elves, and sprites. Or more precisely, half-sprites. But there's only one, the rest of her race left her lands many years ago. There are three Elves in my "fellowship" and three humans. However, the enemy (who I'm still working out...dangit) has his werewolves.
The battle against an ancient evil. True, again. It's almost cliche isn't it? smilies/rolleyes.gif In mine, the evil isn't well-known. No one even knows the guy's name. It's a big mystery. smilies/wink.gif

Lila! That's an interesting idea! I know of a few video games that had that happening (sorry! Fanatic RPG gamer here! smilies/biggrin.gif) and it turned out some ... interesting results. smilies/smile.gif

Now, I'm going way back up to over-used plot devices. What about...running off, kill the dragon, save the princess, claim the riches, become king? It's a fairy tale cliche and the Hobbit sort used it. But with a twist that I thought was original and well, cool. smilies/smile.gif

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 03:09 PM

hey nar, i just remembered a quote..
it is better to have loved and lst that to have never loved at all
that kinda sums it up. consider yourself lucky

littlemanpoet

07-04-2002, 04:08 PM

Welcome, Olorin of the Third Age (I'm guessing). Post often. I have the first seven pages of this thread indexed and will post it soon, so stay tuned for an easy guide to this thread based on topic, page number, date, and time.

Lila, I think your original fantasy work idea is exciting. I hope you keep going on that and tell us how it's going. We're here to help with problems, too. In fact, there's a lot already posted on this thread that is gold-mine quality of encouragement and help.

So what do you think would happen if the whole party was suddenly feared as evil? Hmmm. Good balance-tipper there.

Thinyan: Tolkien also didn't have a really firm idea as to Sauron right away, so you're in good company. The Necromancer in Mirkwood was mysterious and terrible enough in The Hobbit, and the rest is Middle Earth history, so to speak. I'm interested to find out where things go...

Nar, I like your immersion and transition categories for fantasy stories. I see one more, in the tradition of Charles Williams, X-Files, etc.: "this-world-paranormal/supernatural stuff. The "Society" half of my story is this kind, and there is no transition to speak of until the boundaries between dimensions start getting crashed later in the story - oops - gave away a plot point there (fww folks ignore this smilies/wink.gif ). And I'm starting a new fantasy story (don't know where I'm finding the time to do it all) that is very much the psychological/dream-mixing-with-reality/paranormal variety. So what would you call it?

NN10: I like where you're going with your ideas. Cool stuff. Hope to hear more. It's scary and a little strange to hear you talking the way I was feeling twenty-five years ago...Your main protagonist reminds me of one of my two protagonists, who gets sucked into this weird cultic/strange science kind of modern 'guild', which is also a mixed bag in terms of good versus evil. So I'm with you there.

As for unrequited love, oh yeah, it felt like waking up from a dream or the fantasy adventure suddenly ending with a crash; or more accurately, the feeling of really being alive suddenly coming to a screeching halt and the hum drum reality forcing itself back into my awareness. NNGG! <ouch> smilies/confused.gif The quote about love lost is from Shakespeare, as you probably are aware. Whereas I agree with it, the pain still can feel unbearable at times.

Anyway, the new story is definitely NOT Tolkien-imitation. A guy is out for a drive feeling in full force the rejection of his affections, and happens across this strange blue flitting light from which comes strange music. It's on the property of some rich guy, but my protagonist just has to go to it - touches it the same moment the rich guy comes out and attacks him - just for trespassing - touches it, and suddenly everything changes. The rich guy and his woman are going scuba diving and protagonist watches rich guy murder the woman, is spotted, and runs for his life and discovers that he's no longer in a 35 year old body but is a teenager again....and the next door basement he hides in - the family find him and insist he's their son who has FINALLY begun to talk like a normal teenager instead of the slightly autistic kind of kid he'd always been. Protagonist can't decide if he's dreaming or has gotten a second chance at life or what, and there's this murderer next door and things just take off from there. Man, I'm telling a lot here but it's just NOT AT ALL like the kind of fantasy I think we're all used to writing so I feel safe... (do we have p11 here?) smilies/tongue.gif

Nope. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 04:13 PM

thanks,it's good to hear i realate to people hear. and thanks for taking an intrest in my story. hey i just got a new idea
what if you were just a normal person, than you found out that you are the reancarnated spirit of some great evil. slowly, but surely it starts to ake over your mind. what would you do? fight it, embrase it, or take your own life? think about it...

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 04:27 PM

nn10, you have really awesome ideas. When you publish that book, I want to be the first to get a copy! It seems like you have everything covered for an amazing fantasy story. A lot of detail really makes it more interesting and complete. And your characters seem like real people because not everyone is happy and content. Good luck with that story! smilies/biggrin.gif Your not a geek either. When you make tons of money from your books, will you still think the same?

Now this just makes me realize how far behind I am, I should get started on organizing my story! Everyone has great ideas, when am I gona get mine! What smiley should I put now...oh well, forget the smiley. Well, I guess I'll just use a happy one
smilies/biggrin.gif

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 04:30 PM

thanks for the support lothiriel. and when i am rich i shall still be a geek. i embrace that and use it to my advantage. thats the kind of person i am very resoursefull and alaways planning ahead. I shall be an example of what a geek can do and inspire others to do something with thier geekiness.thanks

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 04:37 PM

No problem Nazzy smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif
It seems like I'm a geek to then! Oh well, doesn't matter to me. It sounds like being a geek if more fun than not being one anyway!

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 04:38 PM

there is a darkside to being a geek too. a very dark side......

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 04:49 PM

I know that. Feeling alone, and seriously wanting to bash in your sister's head, but that isn't a bad part necessarily smilies/evil.gif Edgar Allan Poe is very much like that 'dark side'. I like how he thinks. And I know there are more bad things.

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 04:51 PM

that is just the tip of the iceburg...
and my favorite EAP quate from the tell tale heart...
Why will you say that i am mad?

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 05:16 PM

smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/evil.gif I love that poem. He also has a poem that reminds me of Minas Tirith, but I forget the name.

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 05:19 PM

oh, it's good to find someone with appreciation for such things...

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 05:22 PM

He's one of the best poets ever. Well, him and Tolkien in my opinion. I love dark poems, I like the mystery and tragedy. Tolkien doesn't really fit into that, but his poems are good anyway and he does have tragedy in some.

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 05:24 PM

my poetry is also dark and full of sorrow..

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 05:30 PM

Ooh, can you post them?! I've written some of my own like that too. Only like 2 though, and I don't think they're all that good.

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 05:33 PM

i'll have to try to find my old writing folders, it may take a long time....

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 05:36 PM

No problem smilies/biggrin.gif I bet their good. Did you think of putting them in your story?

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 05:38 PM

nah, i'll probobly make new ones...some of the old ones i wrote 4 years ago...

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 06:50 PM

Well, can't wait to read them anyway smilies/biggrin.gif

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 06:57 PM

thanks alot, i've never had this much support before.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 07:01 PM

smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
It's the style of writing that I love, why would it be bad?! If you write what you feel, the poem can never be bad.

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 07:05 PM

once again thanks, but i must revise my work over and over until i feel it is perfect. i have very high standards for writing.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 07:11 PM

I threw out most of my poems because I thought they were too corny or stupid or just didn't sound right. Everybody sets their own standards for thier writing. It doesn't really make it easier most of the time! Oh well. Off to write in more topics now smilies/wink.gif

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 07:16 PM

yeah i know, i am my own toughest critic. i am also fiercely protective of my work when it isn't finished.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 07:30 PM

I'm like that too, and that's why no one has ever read one of my poems (except when they were assigned to do for English class.)

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 07:34 PM

grrrrrrrrrr...english class. look for some of my ealier relies in this thread and fond out why i shiver when i say that name...

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 07:44 PM

Oh a stupid corny story that she copied...
That's not fair that yours was thrown to the side because of her little essay that probably was 5 sentences saying how people should be nice to each other. I hate when people are so fake. I think it's great that people are more proud of our country, but some people couldn't even have cared about our country before 9/11 and as soon as that happened, then everyone started being all independent and nice to each other. That's great but did it really have to take a tragedy like that to happen before people atarted acting like that? Oh well, point is that I hate when people get credit for something that they shouldn't have gotten credit for. I can't begin to tell you how many people in my class were like that. Enough of my babbling now, sorry!

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 07:46 PM

babbling, i wouldn't call it babbling. spewing the truth maybe...

Lila Bramble

07-04-2002, 07:54 PM

Woah, Nazgul and Lothiriel! Way to take over the board! Thanks for the appreciation on my idea, I'm actually gonna start writing after my fanfic story! Well, welcome Loth, I'm sure you'll get an idea soon! Maybe you'll dream one up tonight..

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 10:04 PM

Spewing the truth, I like that, I'll use that from now on smilies/biggrin.gif
Lila, you have to see us in one of the RPG topics, we're the only ones who post in it!!

NazgulNumber10

07-04-2002, 10:07 PM

true, true

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-04-2002, 10:09 PM

We have like 320 posts or something, right? Probably about 200 are yours!

littlemanpoet

07-05-2002, 06:56 AM

Lothiriel and nn10, I think it's great that you are encouraging each other. I have one minor concern, though, that the powers that be (moderators) might consider this thread to be degenerating and want to close it down. So you might want to consider doing PMs where you could agree to go to the chat rooms, or just post via PM. Please don't see this post as trying to nail you to the wall or be some kind of surrogate English teacher who just doesn't get it. We just want this thread to be available for the foreseeable future for ALL of us to enjoy.

NazgulNumber10

07-05-2002, 09:21 AM

Nar

07-05-2002, 09:26 AM

We love you guys, NN10 & Lothiriel, and we love your ideas, & we love that you support each other, long may you keep it up! It's just that this thread was already almost shut down once for veering too far off-topic and off-Tolkien, we just escaped shutdown by getting serious in the nick of time and we were 'kindly let to live.' (Magwich, Great Expectations-- love that book. Now THAT's fantasy comparable to Tolkien! Magwich, Gollum, two great fantasy alteregos! Denethor, Miss Haversham, two great fantasy 'so-bad-they're-good' villains!) Listen, thanks for your support about my friend, NazgulNumber10 and Thinhyandoiel. Good quote, NN10-- I do feel lucky. Very true. Now, since you seem tuned into shades of grey and internal conflict, NazgulNumber 10, do you have any favorite 'so-bad-they're-good' villains in LotR or elsewhere? You know, villains you hate but feel sorry for, like I do about Miss H. and Steward D. Did they inspire anything in your story?

NazgulNumber10

07-05-2002, 09:34 AM

hmmmmmmmm villains i fell sorry for..
1 saruman from lotr. He was nothing but a pawn of saruon, a pawn that reached the end of his row. He was a shadow of something greater and desired that same power.
2 craig from stephan king's the langoliers. A poor demented soul haunted by his overbearing father. Even though he shot some people and stabed a blind girl, i still feel for him.
thats all i can think of right now, and thanks for taking in intrest in my thoughts.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-05-2002, 10:11 AM

sorry smilies/frown.gif It doesn't really seem like I can stay on topic, I'm mad at myself. smilies/mad.gif

I'm still working on my piece of junk, so I don't really have any good ideas to share with you people who seem to be very involved in your works. As for religion in fantasy...good question. Well, I don't really see a problem in it, but again, others are more advanced so I'm sure they'll share their ideas.

Saxony Tarn

07-05-2002, 10:20 AM

Go you, Nazul #10, keep writing that poetry -- but maybe you'd like to start a poetry thread? (just chiming in on some of the previous experiences of this board. Okay, enough scolding, now for the latest from the cellar)

Interesting question -- religion in fantasy: Sure, why not? After all, more often than not a sentient being's gotta believe in something (even if it's not believing in anything or anyone specific) somewhere in my files i've got a "What-If" tale that postulates that if "Demonic Rock Music" is 'for real' then there must be Angelic Rock to counter it, and tracks the amateur careers of a few modern-day spellsingers and bards while they save the world a few times in their own small ways. (yep, Archangel Mike with a Gibson Flying V slung over his winged shoulder -- the Apocalypse will never sound the same!)

Alas, since music plays such a strong role in it, there are too many agents who'd need to be dealt with -- so in a sense, this is '80's-era rock&roll fanfic.

But certainly -- religion in fantasy is natural and logical, and lends that much more mystery and mysticism to your world. (after all, where magic fails, the Divine generally prevails...)

s.t.

|_|) <-- take, drink, this is the mead of inspiration, which i pour for you, to keep this discussion alive and lively!

mystra

07-05-2002, 10:44 AM

hi peeps! u are all obviously much more seriouser peeps when it comes to write than me! smilies/biggrin.gif even though im pretty serious as well!! my room is FULL of scraps of pieces of papers with ideas and plots and maps on them all. and ive only just got a plot! smilies/biggrin.gif im working on creating a world where all will take place, etc. so im concentrate on the map and lands, and the language they speak and stuff like that. anyway, good luck to you peoples. i hopes you are all published in the future soon! smilies/biggrin.gif luv myst.

Starbreeze

07-05-2002, 12:40 PM

ok, back on track. How do you feel about religon in fantasy? is there one major, or do different cultures have their own. Or, are there no traces of religon at all.
I have gone with the option of heving different religons for different cultures. It helps make them more complete and belivable. what you you think?

In an effort not to offend very strictly religious people who may read my work I have left out mentions of Gods etc. where they are not needed and blessings, oaths and curses are said in the name of one of the Sun's that light the world.
My people mainly beleive that the elves, which have now left the land, were gods, or at least super-beings, but they mainly beleive in the power of the elemnets, as with most primitive people, for example, respect is born of fear of volcanoes, strong winds...that is their religion, at least for the common people and those in the North.

Lila Bramble

07-05-2002, 02:19 PM

I skipped a little bit becuase I didn't want to get side-tracked from this awesome idea: the religion of your fantasy work! I never even thought of it! Usually I don't even have a religion, but now it's deffinitly something for me to think about!

Starbreeze

07-05-2002, 02:40 PM

In order to make it realistic I think it is important for there to be some sort of religion or cult following, it is natural for humans for seek something to explain things, and important that they have someone above them to keep them in their place and for them to look up to.

mystra

07-05-2002, 02:43 PM

*myst has gods and goddesses smilies/biggrin.gif and lesser deities smilies/smile.gif and different planes of existense smilies/biggrin.gif yes, gods are very important smilies/smile.gif

NazgulNumber10

07-05-2002, 02:48 PM

while i do have religons in my story, i feel it is important to remain neutral while describing them and their fallowers.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-05-2002, 02:58 PM

That sounds good

mystra

07-05-2002, 03:03 PM

im out for summer now smilies/smile.gif im looking forward to writing a lot! im hoping to actually get somewhere with my book! smilies/biggrin.gif i wanna finish my gods! theyre starting to annoy me! and then there are the cults....... smilies/biggrin.gif if anyone has any writing or plots tips/suggestions, PLEASE!!!!!! let me know! thanx! i also have a topic in novices and newcomers- cant remember the title! i have asked the same question there, so if u ever have anything, please say! thanx! luv myst.

Lila Bramble

07-05-2002, 05:42 PM

Mystra, I have a little idea. How about making a god/goddess or one belied to be decendant or one who is mistaken for a god/gaoddess on the party?

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-05-2002, 05:58 PM

Yeah, that sounds cool. It like in the Sword of Shannara series, Shea Ohmsford is a descendant of Jerle Shannara... eh, not like anyone cares, but it's an example!

Saxony Tarn

07-05-2002, 06:16 PM

and you have history behind you -- many cultures believed their gods to be distant ancestors of Man, or at least, of their group.

Puts some real oomph in "Namaste" (The Divine in me honors the Divine in you)...

|_|) <-- have a good weekend everyone!

s.t.

littlemanpoet

07-05-2002, 08:09 PM

What a topic idea, NN10! I'm kind of surprised it hasn't come up till now. My big story has through its seven revisions been completely bedrocked in religion, specifially traditional Christianity - what I come from. But the eighth version is breaking away from a strict adherence to it, which I needed. There's still the Genesis 6 thing about the sons of the gods and the daughters of men, which is the basis for my main question anyway, of "what if all the mythologies were true?". So anyway, it seems my religious stuff is retreating further and further back into the background. Which means it's getting more like Tolkien than it used to be. Which I like. I'm not sure how it's all going to play out, but with the world we know as dimension #1 and faerieland as dimension #2, I still have a kind of abode of the Deity as dimension #3. All three dimensions impinge on each other, which means that they all take up the same place in space and time, it's just that dimension #1 people can't see #2 and #3, and whereas faerie people can see #1 as well as their own #2, they can't perceive #3. Those in dimension #3 (purgatory? paradise? heaven? I don't know what to call it, maybe all three plus some other things - nirvana? valhalla? hmmm? ) can perceive the other 2 dimensions. Little by little one of my protagonists begins to be aware of this third dimension, and begins to perceive it and gets frustrated that nobody will listen to her about what she sees. Which is more stated more clearly here than I've ever done before anywhere. Wow! Problem is, it doesn't come into my story until deep into the sequel which I haven't written much of at all. So my set up is really different from Tolkien's, even if it partakes of the idea of keeping the gods and goddesses in the background.

Happy writing!

NazgulNumber10

07-05-2002, 08:12 PM

cool. I also use some imagiry for things in our world. Kinda like gandalf's speak to the balrog were he mentions the secret fire, and tolkien meant the holy spirit.

Nar

07-05-2002, 09:42 PM

Yeah, NN10 I agree with you-- some religion makes the story more realistic, but I think you had a good point back there, the treatment of religion's got to be realistic. In real life a lot of people have a faith but are not as intensely into it as a priest or a monk would be-- that's good in a story I think, for someone to have a normal slightly lapsed faith rather than be perfect in their religion because you bothered to give them one.

So, Littlemanpoet, you've revealed your long term plans, aha! Perceiving the other side, cool. And no one will believe her!
I get the strong feeling with Frodo by the end of RotK that he's more than half existing solely on that spiritual side-- it's all the more convincing to me for being done in that practical, nondenominational way. I'd still like to see the meeting of Eru & Gollum-- what a story! I bet he'd shriek 'don't cast us into the nassty flames preciousss, we, I, Smeagol will be very good, yesss! Bring the angelses nice fissh!' I wonder if Eru'd be able to bring Smeagol around at the last second? I'd try if I was Eru. Guess I'd better go start a thread topic!

Lila Bramble

07-07-2002, 03:26 PM

I have a question for everyone here.

I know JRR Tolkien didn't have a romance in Lord of the Rings, but do you find it neccassary and more exciting to insert people with love interests and perhaps couples? Or two people who develop int partners? I know that I find it much more interesting for the reader, and moref un to write.

NazgulNumber10

07-07-2002, 03:34 PM

hmmmmmmmmm good question. I typically write about stuff that i have gone through, so there isn't much love there. Mine story is a tale of pain and suffering, and a battle agaisnt something, no matter how hard you try, you just can't stop. However, there is some love in there (at the end). but even that love has its trobles. It truely is a tale of human suffering, and of what comes out of it.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-07-2002, 09:09 PM

I don't know about you people, and I certainly think I'm weird about this, but sometimes I get jealous when two of the characters fall in love. You get so attatched to the characters and also it's just so perfect and it's not fair!! Yeah but it definetly makes the book more interesting. I think sometimes couples who fall in love should be like nn10's-full of problems. it makes it more realistic and less to be jealous about smilies/evil.gif But not for all though, yes sometimes it's nice to have it problem free. But doesn't everything have it's flaws? I better stop now, I'm spewing too much of the truth smilies/biggrin.gif

Nar

07-07-2002, 09:16 PM

I like reading about love, Lila, if it's rooted in comradeship. I like reading about friendship first, that's more important to me. LotR's strong on friendship, that's why I like it so much. I would put couples into your story-- any writer writes well about what's fun for him or her. NazgulNumber10, you know best what your story needs. Some stories are about a lone character's struggle against him/herself in difficult circumstances-- I've written a few like that, although the story I'm working on now has couples, a stoic young couple just gaining each other's trust and a wildly romantic but frusterated old couple. I've been feeling more comradely lately. When I was in a loner mood, I wrote loner-confronts-the-ugly-truth stories. I go back and forth.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-07-2002, 09:20 PM

Friendship's always important in stories, that's very true Nar.

mystra

07-08-2002, 10:25 AM

thanx for the ideas! smilies/biggrin.gif
yes, love should be included. i have various characters with love issues. two of my characters are particularly tragic. amadeus is part of the quest group- the main characters, and he and meridia, a princess the group meets, fall in love. but meridia hears at one point that amadeus is dead and jumps from her castle tower and kills herself- but he isnt really dead. i might do a romeo and juliet and have him kill himself as well, or he might just be depressed for the rest of his life smilies/biggrin.gif

ps. i also get jealous when characters get together, or become over-perfect. particularly the best guy getting the overly wonderful girl-hero/warrior, etc.

Saxony Tarn

07-08-2002, 10:45 AM

Ah, LOVE -- that great fantasy...

(as all my characters nod vigorously & shout, yeah right, we've heard that one before!)

i find it's the best (and the most fun to write) if the characters have to figure out over the course of the story that they're meant for each other -- the hard way, like two north ends of a magnet having to figure out how to stick together. A lot more like Life with its misunderstandings, unrealistic expectations, less than optimal timing, the works. Something we in the real world can still relate to!

Something that runs like, "but of course (she) is hardly the woman that you would desire, Brother -- nor can any woman on (milieu omitted) ever be the woman that you desire, for you have never known what it is that you do desire! So, since you have no clear image of the woman that you want, Providence gives you instead the woman that you need -- and it should hardly surprise me that, despite all her actions in your best interest, you perceived her at first as your worst nightmare!"

Whoa, Faramir, hold that thought while i write it down, and i'll shut my mouth & go finish that fanfic...

|_|) <-- skoal!

s.t.

mystra

07-08-2002, 10:47 AM

uh........... u r obviously more intellectual than me.............

littlemanpoet

07-08-2002, 10:52 AM

Actually, Mystra, it's just a matter of knowing that Saxony Tarn is busy at work on a fanfic about Boromir and Faramir, getting into their heads. If you want to know more just look for ST's posts on earlier pages of this thread - or check out the fanfic section itself!

happy writing!

mystra

07-08-2002, 10:56 AM

ok. smilies/biggrin.gif happy writing to u too.

(i hope my fan fic is posted soon!)

Starbreeze

07-08-2002, 12:40 PM

Ah, love....

I only allow my characters to form deep friendships but I don't let then become too involved with each other or they will be distracted from their tasks. Also, as someone said - I get jealous of them.

NazgulNumber10

07-08-2002, 12:43 PM

jealousy and love go hand in hand. if you are to put love in a book, have some characters become jealous. It adds depth and realisim.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

littlemanpoet

07-08-2002, 01:13 PM

We wonders, yes we does, my preciousss, if, Ssstar, you exercsssize too much control of your characterses if you doessssn't let them get dissstracted, my preciousss, yes, we wondersesssss.

happy writing

Lila Bramble

07-08-2002, 01:22 PM

Perfect relationships are never good, as are relationships that are completely in a wreck, or always fighting. That can be pretty boring. As well as the group, if they all like each other with no problems, it's unrealistic and also kinda boring. As is when they all hate each other. There can be conflicts occasionly, which is good, and maybe a conflict just between 2 people. If the whole group dislike each other, develop strong bonds like Tolkien did with Gimli and Legolas. Your story can get very interesting this way.

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-08-2002, 01:32 PM

Yup, Starbreeze, that would have been me smilies/biggrin.gif Glad to know I'm not the only one smilies/wink.gif

Starbreeze

07-08-2002, 02:25 PM

Lol LMP! Yes, well, at the moment its the only thing I can control in my life - there are a lot of changes happening - moving house, moving to college, exams instead of lessons, lots of new stuff that I can't control. I guess its kinda retaliation that I exercise complete comtrol over my characters. And if I didn't, as I have found out before - they develop a life of their own, and will wander off completely!

Lothiriel, yep, and I'm sure there are moe than just the two of us! smilies/biggrin.gif

littlemanpoet

07-08-2002, 02:33 PM

Here goes with the index of the first 11 pages, my friends. So let this go down as a true accounting of my geekiness. But what if there wasn't any of us? The world would fall around the ears of the non-geeks, don't ya think?

This is organized by topic cluster, then page, date, and time posted. I'm using military time because it's a heck of a lot easier to type - it's based on Eastern time, just like what I get when I log onto barrowdowns. Sorry if it's different for the rest of you. Examples: 0424 stands for April 24. 0512 0012 stand for 12 minutes after midnight on May 12. Sorry. I got used to it, you can to (i hope smilies/tongue.gif )

Imitation of Tolkien
p1: 0418 0322; 0418 1836
p2: 0422 0953; 0418 1601; 0423 1054;
0424 2214
p3: 0425 2333; 0503 0402; 555 1644
p4: 0509 0203
p6: 0522 1612; 0524 0141; 0524 0147
p7: 0614 1314
p9: 0625 1808; 0625 1907
p10: 0701 1651; 0704 1308

Dreams and Archetypes
p1: 0418 0322; 0421 0022
p2: 0420 0806; 0421 1953; 0422 0212; 0424 2214
p3: 0502 2023; 0503 1644; 0504 0827
p4: 0506 1933
p5: 0511 0726
p7: 0614 1256
p10: 0702 1153; 0704 1141

Fanfiction/Rollplaying
p1: 0418 1809
p2: 0424 1021
p3: 0425 1744
p4: 0507 0838; 0507 1222; 0507 1347; 0507 2105; 0507 2156; 0507 2317; 0508 1603; 0508 1915; 0509 0123
p5: 0520 2134; 0520 2155
p6: 0521 1335; 0523 0019; 0605 0627
p7: 0608 1538; 0609 1720; 0610 1857; 0612 2220; 0613 1319; 0614 1055
p8: 0619 1809; 0619 1315
p9: 0621 1243; 0621 1841; 0622 1551; 0622 1638; 0624 2120; 0625 1232; 0625 1704; 0625 1719; 0625 1738; 0625 1808; 0625 1907; 0625 1944; 0625 2003; 0626 1223; 0626 1316; 0626 1329; 0626 1516; 0626 1608; 0627 1240
p10: 0701 1709

Serious Fantasy
p1: 0419 2045; 0420 0806
p2: 0421 1953; 0424 2214; 0425 0210
p3: 0425 0807; 0425 1859; 0425 1933; 0426 0715; 0426 1755; 0426 2339; 0427 1521; 0428 1016; 0428 1215; 0430 2132; 0501 1523; 0501
1646
p4: 0507 0943; 0507 1207; 0507 1222; 0507 1347; 0507 2156; 0509 1816
p6: 0522 0103; 0522 1628; 0523 0210; 0523 1423
p7: 0612 2220; 0614 1256
p8: 0614 1543; 0617 1744

Languages
p1: 0419 1306
p2: 0422 0311; 0422 0424; 0422 1528; 0422
1639; 0423 1039; 0423 2321; 0424 0903
p6: 0522 1736
p7: 0609 1720; 0614 1055; 0614 1302
p9: 0628 1730; 0628 2242; 0628 2254
p10: 0630 1122; 0630 1249; 0630 1500; 0701 1000; 0704 1221

Writers' Stories
p1: 0419 1907; 0420 0806; 0420 0858; 0420 1039; 0420 1156; 0420 1246; 0420 1257; 0420 1431; 0420 2354; 0421 0022
p2: 0423 0607; 0423 1054; 0424 2014; 0424 2052
p3: 0501 0212; 0502 1309; 0502 1803; 0503 0402; 0504 0706
p4: 0506 2124; 0507 2105; 0510 0640; 0510 0855
p5: 0510 2306; 0511 0726; 0511 1400; 0511 0605; 0513 1227; 0514 2005; 0516 1953; 0517 1840
p6: 0522 1612; 0522 1736; 0524 0141; 0524 0147; 0524 1300; 0525 2235; 0604 0148; 0605 1059; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 1538; 0609 1714; 0610 1354; 0613 1319; 0614 1314
p8: 0614 1436; 0614 1554; 0614 2245; 0615 0106; 0615 1153; 0615 1753; 0619 1443; 0620 1315
p9: 0625 1808; 0625 1810; 0626 1329; 0628 1523
p10: 0629 1307; 0629 1427; 0629 2020; 0630 1100; 0630 1500; 0630 1644; 0701 1709; 0701 1716; 0702 1801; 0702 1823; 0704 1808
p11: 0705 1244

Problems & Advice: writer's block, battle scenes, beginnings and endings, etc.
p1: 0419 2152; 0420 0441; 0420 1259; 0420 1431; 0420 1621; 0420 1716; 0421 0338
p2: 0421 1425; 0421 1802; 0422 0259
p3: 0502 1252
p4: 0509 1224; 0509 1250; 0509 1816
p5: 0510 2306; 0511 0711; 0511 0726; 0511 0812; 0511 1021; 0511 2255; 0512 1826; 0512 2216
p6: 0521 1342; 0521 1740; 0522 1612
p7: 0612 2220; 0613 1319; 0614 0254; 0614 1302
p8: 0614 1543; 0614 2245; 0615 0106; 0615 1153; 618 1311; 0619 1438; 0619 1501; 0620 2019; 0620 2205; 0621 0031; 0621 0117; 0621
1051
p9: 0621 1243; 0625 1232; 0625 1259; 0625 1704
p10: 0701 1301; 0701 1319; 0702 0701; 0702 1153; 0702 1330; 0702 1823; 0704 1221; 0704
1623; 0704 1808

Researching & Revising
p2: 0421 0803; 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0212
p3: 0502 2023
p4: 0511 0016
p5: 0510 1851; 0511 0050; 0511 0726; 0511 2255
p6: 0521 1342; 0521 1740; 0521 1751; 0522 1628; 0523 0210; 0524 0141; 0524 1300; 0524
1445; 0524 2022; 0525 0046; 0525 2235; 0531 2322; 0606 0832
p8: 0618 1311; 0618 1701; 0619 1438; 0620 1315; 0620 1504; 0620 1629
p9: 0625 1232; 0627 1209
p11: 0704 2105; 0704 2111

Sexual Content
p2: 0421 1425; 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0259; 042 0404; 0423 0547
p3: 0503 1644
p7: 0609 1720

Inspiration, Sources, and Music
p2: 0421 1802; 0421 1953; 0422 0259
p3: 0502 1252
p4: 0506 1153; 0506 1933; 0506 2020; 0509 1906; 0510 0640
p5: 0511 1153; 0513 1417; 0513 1536; 0513 1803; 0513 1821; 0513 2040; 0513 2046; 0513 2334; 0514 1136; 0514 1522; 0514 1715; 0520 2155; 0521 0636
p6: 0607 1549; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 2342; 0609 1032; 0609 1714; 0609 1859
p8: 0615 1216; 0619 1443
p9: 0629 0722
p10: 0630 1122; 0701 1651

Dragons/Monsters/Elves/Creatures
p2: 0422 0953; 0422 1154; 0422 1518; 0422 1601; 0422 1655; 0422 1824; 0423 0547; 0423
1039; 0423 1058; 0423 1507
p3: 0425 1838
p7: 0608 0323; 0608 1026; 0608 1806; 0608 2121; 0608 2357; 0609 1032; 0609 1619; 0609
1708; 0609 1714; 0609 1859; 0610 0752; 0610
1354; 0614 0441; 0614 1314
p9: 0628 1523; 0628 1730; 0628 1754; 0628 2001; 0628 2242
p10: 0629 1427; 0629 2020; 0629 2032; 0629 2045

Writing Career
p2: 0421 0806; 0422 1639; 0422 1655; 0422 1707; 0423 0607; 0423 1039; 0424 2214
p11: 0704 1827

FaerieWordweavers
p2: 0424 1258; 0424 1316
p4: 0507 0638; 0507 0819
p5: 0520 1012; 0520 2134
p7: 0614 1256

Themes
p4: 0510 0855
p10: 0629 2020; 0701 1000; 0701 1008; 0701 1147; 0702 1153; 0704 1432; 0704 1623; 0704 1813

Writing Style/Interlacing/Point of View
p4: 0510 0640; 0510 0855; 0510 1305; 0510 1423
p5: 0510 1851
p8: 0619 1214; 0619 1300; 0619 1423; 0619 1522; 0619 1809; 0620 1228; 0620 1315; 0620
1500; 0620 1504; 0620 1609; 0620 1611; 0620 2019; 0620 2205
p9: 0621 1243; 0626 1314; 0626 1322

Characters/Characterization/Character Deveopment/Foils/Villains
p5: 0510 1851; 0511 2255; 0512 0605; 0512 0751; 0512 1208; 0513 1227; 0513 2334; 0514 1221; 0514 1715; 0514 2005; 0516 1953; 0517 1840
p6: 0522 1612
p7: 0610 1354; 0610 2148; 0611 0744; 0611 1539; 0611 2244; 0614 0737
p9: 0626 1316; 0627 1209; 0627 1815
p10: 0702 1153; 0704 1221
p11: 0705 1126; 0705 1134

Genderbending
p5: 0514 2005; 0516 1953
p6: 0522 1612; 0531 2322; 0603 0138; 0603 1909; 0603 1928; 0604 0148; 0604 1304; 0605 1059; 0607 2354
p7: 0610 0752

Magic
p6: 0604 1304; 0605 1059; 0605 1226; 0605 1955; 0607 0025; 0607 1607; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 0133; 0610 0752; 0613 1319; 0611 2027; 0611 2109; 0611 2251; 0612 1301; 0612 2220

Aragorn as King and Healer
p6: 0605 1955; 0605 1035; 0607 0025; 0607 1549; 0607 2354
p7: 0608 2342

Places/Setting/Sense of Place in Faerie
p7: 0611 2109; 0612 1158; 0612 1301; 0612 2056; 0612 2220
p9: 0628 1523

Poetry
p8: 0614 1436; 0619 1423
p11: 0704 1849; 0704 1851; 0704 1916; 0704 1917; 0704 1922; 0704 1924; 0704 1930; 0704
1933; 0704 1936; 0704 1938; 0704 2101; 0705 1220

Religion
p11: 0705 1121; 0705 1220; 0705 1440; 0705 1619; 0705 1640; 0705 1643; 0705 1668

Okay. It's done. Ouch. I hurt. And yes, I'm crazy. I admit it. You may disagree with any of my categorizations if you like, and I tended to leave out posts that were primarily personal information. Sorry for any mistakes.

LMP
Happy Writing!

Thinhyandoiel

07-08-2002, 02:34 PM

Ai yai, don't think I've posted for two pages. Sorry 'bout that. Since I got my PS2 I've been sitting infront of a TV screen rather than a computer monitor. Anyways, this whole love business is a tricky thing, now isn't it? Of course, it does depend on the style and genre of your writing. I find it's harder in my type of fantasy, the traditional type. It's hard to explain why, too. Friendship, though, that's quite easy. I find friendship, besides love, is the strongest bond there is. "It's not about anything but the men beside you." I heard a quote like that while watching Black Hawk Down, and the moment I heard that, a new truth opened up to me about the strength of friendships, or simply the strength of the bonds of men (or Elves and Dwarves smilies/biggrin.gif). I mean, let's look at the Fellowship. They were all fighting for Middle-Earth, or more precisely, the free peoples of Middle-Earth. And if you look even more deeply into each character, they each have a bond to someone that they wanted to protect, at least I'm assuming they did. Aragorn was most likely fighting not only for his kingdom or for his people, but wouldn't he be fighting for his love of Arwen also? The Hobbits fought for eachother and the Shire; Legolas and Gimli fought for eachother and for Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain and their families. Legolas's brothers and father, his mother as a sort of revenge thing. At least, this was what I was thinking when I thought about this. In my story, Aven wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for his friendship with Deomer. Deomer himself wouldn't be there but for the strong friendship and loyalty he had with Aowae's brother. Anyways, I think I've talked long enough about this. Anyone else?

Thinhyandoiel

07-08-2002, 02:39 PM

LMP...I'm speachless. That's a big index! We've really talked about all of that?! Good lord. LoL, now you'll have to add friendship and love to the index! jk, jk. I'm grateful, sincerely grateful that you did all this work for us! smilies/biggrin.gif The military time...er, will take some getting used to, but no prob, thanks!!!!

Maikadilwen

07-08-2002, 02:40 PM

I follow you, Thinhyandoiel. In my story, if it hadn't been for a friendship stronger than anything, one of the strongest characters wouldn't even be there. But the love in this friendship managed to bring her back from the realm of the dead. It's one of the strongest factors throughout the entire story.

Saxony Tarn

07-08-2002, 03:11 PM

ah, thanks for the free plug, LMP (w/ brief appearansssse by Gollum in there, perrrhapsss?) but my tale won't be appearing on the Downs for awhile -- it's not finished yet, and i'm not submitting anything for public comsumption that hasn't been checked with that Conservation of Plot Points rule.

(and yeah, the feed from that little webcam i planted into Boromir's skull has made for a rather cerebral tale, so i've been in that intellectual mode for too long. Time to head over to Middle-Earth Mayhem and get silly!)

But what an indexing job! |_|) <-- thirsty work that must have been; this pint's for you. And another if you're still thirsty!

(now let me go print that post back there so Faramir doesn't forget his lines when the brothers have that man-to-man talk that it looks like they're headed for. Under the shade of that freshly-planted new tree, i think...)

While we're still on the topic of good relationships in fiction, how about some published examples that we've read and found to work well? It seems we've picked up a few new young writers who'd probably enjoy the reading, and writers can always use good references and examples!

i'm also figuring the rest of you to have more of an arsenal of books at home than i do, as i can't think of any enduring couples that come to mind at the moment...

No, wait a minute -- Cordelia Naismith and Aral Vorkosigan (Lois McMaster Bulold's series of tales of their son Miles & his spacefaring exploits) -- two unlikely people brought together on opposite sides of a not-quite-war, who end up forging an enduring union and revolutionizing a future world's politics. A great read, and always fun when they cross their son's erratic path in subsequent books...

s.t.

Nar

07-08-2002, 03:27 PM

Littlemanpoet ... Index ... WOW! Just reading the topic names was inspirational all over again! Thank you! smilies/cool.gif
Think I'll go back and reread the serious fantasy pages.
Good couples: Luthien and Beren, in all the versions of their story. I really liked the first version, the tale of Tinuviel in HoME 2, despite the fairy-tale Hero Hound vs. Evil Cat (early Sauron) War that makes it less grand and sweeping. They worked so well together.
Gandalf and Ioreth had such potential, mutual interest in lore, both well seasoned by life, both constantly compelled to explain things to others, but alas, theirs was a love that could never be! smilies/tongue.gif

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-08-2002, 04:40 PM

LMP, how did you manage to do all that!!!??

littlemanpoet

07-09-2002, 10:32 AM

Lothiriel: a version of excel worked great for the categorization, and then it was just copy and paste to get it onto this. The most enjoyable part of it was actually rereading the entire thread and plunking down each one into multiple categories. The hardest part was deciding which categories to lump back together. For example, it would seem most reasonable to lump "sources" with "research and revising", but most of the mentions of sources were in the context of what inspired people, so it made the most sense to go that way.

I'm glad the index is (at least) agreeable to you all so far.

Surprising as it is to me, as I do a mental list of the fantasy I remember having read, there wasn't much by way of couples; the stuff I read seems to center on one lone hero. Friendships are rare, and in the one I remember vividly they ended up enemies (Lawhead's Albion series, which is really good, by the way).

Thanks for the stiff ones, ST. They felt real good after all that masochistic endeavor (still worth the effort, I think).

Oops on the fanfic mistake. I really don't spend much time there and assumed....I'm really looking forward to reading some of your stuff at some point, ST.....even if it's fresh off the brainmatter.

Saxony Tarn

07-09-2002, 11:45 AM

well LMP let me see what i can cook up for you! (i'll stay tuned for the next installment of yours on FWW -- it's beginning to sound like a Twilight-Zony TV series along the lines of Neverwhere -- which was quite a trip)

Hmm hmm hmm... what else to throw out for hungry Wights to scavenge and ruminate over? Good question. Anybody else have any? Still looking for good couples (with a Kudos bar to Nar for that beautiful thought about Gandalf and Ioreth. Now THERE's a fanfic to write! Alas, my production schedule is already booked, so i'll let someone else spin that tale of golden-years companionship)

ah, i've got an idea -- LMP, who were those lone heroes? And what about them resonated with you? And if you could seat them all around a table in this virtual bar with their closest LOTR counterpart, who would that character be? (and which of them would be buying the drinks?)

s.t.

Elenna

07-09-2002, 12:16 PM

I know JRR Tolkien didn't have a romance in Lord of the Rings, but do you find it neccassary and more exciting to insert people with love interests and perhaps couples? Or two people who develop int partners? I know that I find it much more interesting for the reader, and moref un to write.

Personally, I always try to have a romance in my stories, but I try to have it be one that you wouldn't expect. Like instead of the heroine falling in love with the hot warrior, she falls for the skinny weird looking guy who she meets on the road. It makes it more interesting if everything isn't predictable.

What about making up languages? Do you think that adds to a story, or just complicates it?

Lila Bramble

07-09-2002, 02:11 PM

Elenna, you asked about languages. I think if you are a more advanced and dedicated author that making languages could be a good project. If you are just starting off languages can be frustrating and a little advanced, but you can always mention the different languages and just always have a translation. This is what I do, but it is never really realistic if everyone only speaks one language. Just a mention of the different languages or the translations will make the story seem more real.

littlemanpoet

07-10-2002, 07:47 AM

Okay, picking up on a few loose threads I've noticed on this board:

in honor of Starbreeze:
How much control do you exercise over your characters? What are the benefits/boners of total control? What are the benefits/boners of no control? Is a middle ground better? How does it work for you?

in honor of nazgulnumber10 & Lothiriel Silmarien:
Poetry: do you use it in your story? How much? What kind? Formal? Free verse? Do you imitate Tolkien with yours? How do you know when your poetry enhances your story? Can you tell when it fails to enhance it? How? Care to share some of your story poetry here?

By the way, Saxony Tarn, I thought of a good couples story I read, but darned if I can remember the name of the trilogy. I read it just this past summer, too. It's set in a Victorian otherworld connected to our world by rents in the space-time continuum. There are a bunch of these rents. It's actually a pretty darn good yarn but the ending is disagreeable to my particular faith persuasion. Nevertheless, I enjoyed it. The heroine and hero don't even find each other until book two and they start out as allies and end up as teenage 'garden of eden' lovers who don't quite consummate and then must part forever. The author does manage to really get you into the feelings of these two kids. A really good story, over all. I'll dredge up the name of author and trilogy next chance I get.

As to solo characters, the first that jumps out is Conan from the R.E. Howard series. The ultimate independent, loner type. As I said, the Stephen Lawhead Albion series has a friendship gone sour, but the main character Lewis spends most of his time in his own head rather than in relationship with others, though that changes little by little until he become happily married king of all the refugees of Faerie-gone-real-bad.

Elenna, check out the index post I built on page 12 above, and look up languages for what others have said already about your very question. And Lila, I think you're right on in your answer.

I'll answer my own above questions soon.....

Feanaro

07-10-2002, 08:06 AM

And if I didn't, as I have found out before - they develop a life of their own, and will wander off completely!
Hmmm.. I personally find it much easier to write a story when the characters (as well as the plots) take on a life of their own. It always turns out to be a better story in the end (at least that holds true in my case). But I guess its all a matter of personal preference. Anyway, carry on!

Naaramare

07-10-2002, 10:09 AM

she falls for the skinny weird looking guy who she meets on the road.

I have issues with that constant portrayal too, however. Ever notice how the homely guys can get the pretty girls, but the homely girls can never get the pretty guys? (and I'm talking about girls who actually aren't the Standard of Beauty, not ones who just need to be shown the right way to do one's makeup and hair).

It's the one thing that I consciously did with my characters in my story. The heroine is actually an average-looking person; her own description of herself is "I can be attractive, in the right clothes and hairstyle, but I'm never pretty, and sure as hades never beautiful." She's also the one my elven hero is in love with. Go figure. ^~

But to the original question: yes, I feel impelled towards romance. The relationship between my hero and my heroine is a major plot point for the story; of course, it's sometimes a very disfunctional relationship, and my romances are no beds of roses. And I throw curve balls; some of the male/female relationship (or even applicable male/male!) are quite simply platonic. :: shrugs::

What about making up languages?

I think it can be way overdone. I tend to make up a very few words, curses, exclamations and greetings, that sort of thing. The kinds of things that actually do come out in your native tongue when you're startled, as I know from experience (three weeks in France, speaking only French, completely bilingual . . . I still cursed in English when I hurt myself). Otherwise, well, my POV character speaks French and English; she doesn't understand anything of what my elves are babbling on in their own tongue, anyway, so why write it?

How much control do you exercise over your characters?

Very little. And when I try, they become flat, stale and boring; me, forced through a male perspective, or something like that. Letting them simply percolate in my head makes for much more rounded charas, but it can be maddening for plot purposes.

The heroine and hero don't even find each other until book two and they start out as allies and end up as teenage 'garden of eden' lovers who don't quite consummate and then must part forever

Ahhhh. 'His Dark Materials'. I adored those books so very much . . .::laughs:: and I personally didn't have the faith-persuasion problem, but I can understand where it would stick. It's one of the things I've never understood; such a fuss is made of Harry Potter, and yet His Dark Materials is ignored, and it's the one that violently attacks Christian conceptions .. . :: shrugs::

Saxony Tarn

07-10-2002, 11:34 AM

Woof -- good catches there, LMP; i'll answer those in one fell swoop if i can:

Control over characters -- uh huh. They all have a life of their own! In one saga it became forbidden to give "background" characters names, for once i did, they began taking on more of a role than they were intended to play. The current cast, well, they're an unruly bunch to put it politely, but that's part of the dynamics of the project!

Poetry -- hoom hoom, maybe i should just put the link here and elect you all honorary beta readers? (or perhaps Lila and Nar, who've read a few chunks of it, would care to give a review?) Since i'm borrowing Tolkien's world and standing it on its ear, it's only fitting that there should be poetry in it, but i want it to fit in with the plot and the story, not just be there to fill pages (as no doubt many thought of Tolkien's poetry when they were hacking their ways through the books)

i'd tried to keep said poetry restricted to Tolkien's and mine, until i found another poem here on the Downs that just fit too well. So i asked the author if i could borrow it, in exchange for proper credit, of course. (graciously she agreed, and it proceeded to become the main theme of one of the chapters, even bringing in its own bit character to present it. i'm still thinking of a way that i can get that character back on stage again before the story's end.)

okay, enough of my rambling, i'll get back to serving drinks. It's expected to reach 100 Fahrenheit out here on the Western Shore, so i'll be serving all COLD drinks, if nobody minds...

|_|) <-- skoal!

s.t.

Lila Bramble

07-10-2002, 11:38 AM

Ack! Guys, I need help!

I was writing the third tale to my five part series, and got a little stuck for ideas. I digged through my drawer and found some outlines of the story I was writing that I had made quite a while ago, and found that I was writing my story in a completely different direction than I had intended to!

I had ideas in the story I was currently writing that came to me in my head, but the explanation, order, and reasons for the events (which are almost the same in both versions) were completely different!

Should I continue just writing the version I have now, or make the second version and continue writing both, and see what ending product makes more sense and is the better story? (Saxony, I know you could help here, as well as you, LMP!)

Lothiriel Silmarien

07-10-2002, 12:23 PM

Ever notice how the homely guys can get the pretty girls, but the homely girls can never get the pretty guys? (and I'm talking about girls who actually aren't the Standard of Beauty, not ones who just need to be shown the right way to do one's makeup and hair).

Yeah, WHY is that!?

Lila, I wish I could help you, but I don't think my advice would be that helpful smilies/tongue.gif Good luck though!

Saxony Tarn

07-10-2002, 12:40 PM

Addressing the question of Beauty vs. the Beast, well, i can proudly say that i have what is probably the fairest half-Orc in the land in my tale, and i have yet to describe her human teammate as "pretty". Austere, severe, and all-business demeanor, perhaps -- well okay, i take that back. Pippin's described her as "the pretty lady" (in relation to the half-Orc's "not-so-pretty lady") -- and Merry's disagreed with him. Hey, i guess it all depends on what you consider attractive. After all, as they do agree, blokes like Ugluk and Shagrat would probably be dueling over Skheel if they had the opportunity.

...uh oh, it's only 87 degrees out there, nowhere near the forecast delirium-inducing extreme heat yet, so why do i hear Grace Jones's voice in my head saying, "no, but seriously, Boromir, you're a wonderful man, but your skin's too thin and your jaw is shaped all wrong; it would never work out..." Guess i'll be writing "Skheel, Queen of the Orcs" after all...

s.t.

littlemanpoet

07-10-2002, 01:59 PM

That trilogy I mentioned above was "His Dark Materials" by Philip Pullman. The first volume is called "The Golden Compass", followed by "The Subtle Knife", then "The Amber Spyglass". Let me warn those of you who call yourself Christians, Pullman sets up a paper Tiger version of Christianity in the book and proceeds to show how ridiculous it is. This is the big flaw in his otherwise remarkable piece of fantasy. I wouldn't mind if he had actually done an adequate job of showing how difficult xianity is to believe as compared to other faiths, but that's not his tack. In any case, I still think it was a great read for depth of character, intensity of wonder, scope of vision, sheer plot (Pullman is a good story teller), and 'how to write good fantasy'. He even pulled off the Tolienesque eucatastrophe via ultimate sacrifice by some less than righteous individuals who are deeply tied to the herione (now there's some parallel to Tolkien, eh? - think Gollum/Frodo). Good stuff, but could be better. Still worth the read.

Naaramare

07-10-2002, 02:03 PM

:: smiles gently:: Some of us have more contact with the real-life "paper tiger" of Christianity than we'd like.

Saxony Tarn

07-10-2002, 02:18 PM

:: setting the breakables behind the bar, just in case! ::

Noted, and will consider it when looking for a new read. While we're on the subject of religion, and in a heroic attempt to keep the discussion from becoming too fiery a debate, there is obviously a niche market for religious-segment-targeted fiction (i don't have to mention the 'Left Behind' series here, especially since i am not among its readership, but it is a salient example of a book that found its reader market and is dominating it) i can also think of a few books i've read that target demographics that other Wights in our little section of the graveyard might be more in tune with (and i will not take any names in vain, i trust you all know who you are)

We know that Tolkien and his good buddy Lewis both had deeply-held beliefs, which one way or another found expression in their writing. Although i wouldn't be able to say for certain w/o reading Pullman's books, it sounds to me like he's either not done as good of a job handling his world as he could have or he's got a proverbial axe to grind.

Which brings me to this, especially since Starbreeze mentioned that she leaves that aspect out so as not to offend readers, how can we make characters have spiritual beliefs that seem natural to them -- and, if they're beliefs that just happen to have real-world parallels, how can we do it without sounding either preachy or heretical ourselves?

it's a real trick, i know!

s.t.

littlemanpoet

07-10-2002, 02:20 PM

Oop. Naaramare, I read your post after I'd written mine. Good catch there. And yeah, Pullman just rips into xianity while Rowling just lets it be. All the xians are up in arms only because Potter's popular and Dark Materials isn't. Wonder why not?

As to why pretty girls fall for homely guys but not vice versa, I've heard tell from the experts that - in general - sexual attraction has to do with the visual for men and with characteristics for women. Obviously, being a good looking guy is no fault, nor are good character traits in women. Nevertheless, it's said that guys just need an excuse and a place whereas ladies need a reason and the right circumstances to consummate. [all the women in the audience roll their eyes at the male gender in general] Yep, you're stuck with us. smilies/biggrin.gif

In one saga it became forbidden to give "background" characters names, for once i did, they began taking on more of a role than they were intended to play. smilies/biggrin.gif

I wanna read your stuff, ST!

Lila Bramble On divergent plots: Nar would say (I think) to write them both and see which one feels more right. My own way would be to FIRST write the current one that's diverging from your original plans, because the divergent one is coming out of the deep creative you, the intuitive genius part of you whereas the former was probably coming more out of the logical, analytical, less imaginative planner side of you.

[lmp takes a bow to all the fair female half-orcs, thinking up some lines of verse as he does so and almost spouts them then thinks better of it because he realllly would rather not get -ahem- involved with any half-species in certain unmentionable ways, as they do not quite fit his visual notions of -you know- beauty (yeah right).] smilies/tongue.gif

Naaramare

07-10-2002, 02:27 PM

For myself, I have characters of all religious denominations--and prejudices. And while I obviously sympathise with my own sect more than with, say, Roman Catholics, I make all my characters equally fallible.

This means that the characters who share my faith can be just as prejudiced and bigoted as the ones who's belief runs counter to mine, according to their own character. My main Supporting Male, for example, would be equally accepting of everyone elses beliefs, whether he were Muslim or Protestant (as it so happens, he's Catholic). And my main Supporting Female would be just a prejudiced and difficult to make see other's points of view no matter her denomination (she's an athiest).

I loathe most "religious" fiction. Of any religious denomination (don't even get me started on Circle of Three, ugh ugh ugh!). The only piece of fiction based around my own religion I've ever enjoyed was "Murder at Witches' Bluff" by Silver RavenWolf, and that was because of one simple thing.

The line between simple belief of your characters and being preachy is, I think, shown by how much you seem to push in your readers face that THEY should be acting this or that way. MaWB left open to interpretation much; having flipped through the first book of the Left Behind series and found the plain craft of the writing seriously lacking, it left nothing open to interpretation.

As my bible-counsellor friend said: "You know there's something wrong with a book when the only interesting character is the Anti-Christ."

In the end, I think it matters most if your characters are sympathetic, or whether they just seem to be tools for the author to show the world The Right Way to Be and Live.

<edit> because Potter's popular and Dark Materials isn't. Wonder why not?

::laughs:: Because the issues and moral stuff raised in Harry Potter is slipped in like sugar-coated medication, whereas HDM dumps them in your lap and says "Look! issues! Think about them! Oh yes, and while we're at it, we're going to bombard you with complex moral issues, sexuality and multiple worlds, storylines and prophecies!"

^~ I recommend HP to everyone I know who reads, simply because whether you choose to think about the issues it can raise or not, it's still a good story. I don't recommend HDM to many, because I honestly don't think they can handle it. </edit>

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Naaramare ]

Saxony Tarn

07-10-2002, 02:55 PM

Woof! Good stuff. Tasty stuff. High-capsacin-packed "religious experience chili-sauce" stuff. i like it.

LMP AND Naaramare, if you're both interested i'll send you the link to where i've got Ch. 0 - 8 of my fanfic up on AOL space for my test readers, and i'll make you both this bet, that LMP will be able to identify the odd bit of Judeo-Christian-influenced symbolism, and Naaramare will probably have an equally lengthy list of classical pagan allusions by the time the saga is done (why, because i'm an equal opportunity exploiter!)

BTW LMP, your assessment of men vs. women is very much right on the nailhead, no matter how sometimes it may seem cliche'd. (which may or may not be as true in the metaphorical continuum as it is in the physical. As within, so without?)

and i've only got one observation on why Potter catches all of HDM's rightful share of flack -- Potter's not just popular, it's popular with -- gasp, shudder -- CHILDREN. Young, impressionable CHILDREN... who are anything BUT fools.

s.t.

(meditating on that. om........)

Naaramare

07-10-2002, 02:58 PM

Definitely interested. ^^ I was the despair of my French Canadian grade ten teacher by identifying the classical paganism in LotR for her . . . ::winks:: It's fun. Besides, I'd love to read the story of one of our most interesting posters.

My own's not up anywhere, but available on (rare) request.

And I'd say your assessment is dead on. I'd argue that a young child wouldn't even be able to necessarily follow HDM's storyline, let alone the more complex themes.

Equal opportunity exploitation . . .nothin' wrong with that . . . ::grins::

Lila Bramble

07-10-2002, 05:35 PM

Guys, read Saxon'y story! It is deffinently worth it, it's really awesome! And thanks for your advice, LMP! You gusy are lots 'o help!

Lila Bramble

07-10-2002, 05:36 PM

Guys, read Saxon'y story! It is deffinently worth it, it's really awesome! And thanks for your advice, LMP! You gusy are lots 'o help!

On other thoughts: I have a question. Would mentioning 'female problems' be okay in a seriosu fantasy work?

Nar

07-10-2002, 08:41 PM

Lila, I have to agree with Littlemanpoet, write the new version, it's probably coming out of a deeper place. I do favor keeping parallel versions of a story if you can still see 'em. I have a symbolic, parody, and fantasy version of the story I'm working on now, but the fantasy version is the main one, it's like a vacuum cleaner hoovering up every story I've worked on for the past year.

Saxony Tarn, Poetry-- story kicks off with a great, lovely, wicked ballad. Looking forward to more poetry as I read the next chapters.

Women and men: Sad but true. I think, though that just as people become more compelling as you get to know them, you can write a physically plain or undefined character so that they become attractive. One of my heroines calls herself a 'shapeless crone' -- she's given to extreme pronouncements. She's actually a fairly hale 63 year old with a fierce personality, which is lucky, considering what she'll have to go through to rescue her lover. I think she's the most attractive character in the story. Of course, I'm a woman, so I would, wouldn't I?

Whoa! That Left Behind series is scary-- I looked at a gruesome murder in a middle book and gave up the idea of reading it. I loved your friend's summation of the series, Naaramare.
Phillip Pullman's series is wonderful, very well written. As it's set in an alternate world, I cling to the hope that it's an alternate God he's tackling, but I know Pullman did say it was intended to be a Narnia for athiests. On the other hand, I can think of a few authors who set out to write simple stories to instill morality into youth and ended up with something far more than they intended. The fact is, the best material in Pullman is the less didactic material where he just follows the story and characters and invents like wild. There's nothing noticably didactic about the Armored Bears. Whatever he thought he was taking aim at, he hit abuse of authority far more accurately than God.

Religion: I'm more interested in the classic mistakes and strengths of each and all religions than pitting one against the other. The key to a reasonable religious discussion is remaining alive to the difference between the wish to share and the will to power over others. There are always some who don't understand that distinction. What I find ironic is when those who have the most hard-driving will to power over others rant about the dangers of power-lust! That's what's wonderful about Tolkien, he truly did not lust for power over others. That does wonders for his story.

I see a lot of classic mistakes, that occur almost identically across very different religions-- there are similar traps that new believers fall into, similar traps that fervent believers fall into, they can all recognize the phenomenon in rival religions but it's a rare insight to recognize the same trap in your own faith. Of course, as religions are profoundly different, the heart of each religion does not compare, but the mistakes, particularly the new-faith mistakes and the political/organizational-faith mistakes can be compared. I guess I'm saying that all true faiths are distinct, but of the false faiths, there are only a few types. (I'm using 'true' in the sense of 'true to a faith's own aspirations.)

I've got a story about a character who rattles back and forth opportunistically between christian and pagan, viewing the faiths as competing patrons of luck, making the same mistake in each, thinking the right religion will bring control of her fate, which she's desperate to change. Sam's comment about Lorien sums her up: It strikes me that folk takes their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

Lila Bramble

07-10-2002, 09:29 PM

I have a question.

In one of my stories, a person betrays immensly a dear friend of his, a king, and the betrayist his squire. The king barely survives the ordeal.

I was wondering, at the end should the squire have a large punishment, or have a spreaded forgiveness?

Naaramare

07-11-2002, 12:31 AM

you can write a physically plain or undefined character so that they become attractive.

That's my challenge with my herione. She's quite bluntly nothing special, for pure physical beauty--if you were, say, looking at a posed picture. However, she has a vitality and manner that make her extremely beautiful . . .to a select few people.

My problem has always been writing her view of herself, and yet making her lover's insistance that yes, she is beautiful (to him at least) make sense to the reader!

Whatever he thought he was taking aim at, he hit abuse of authority far more accurately than God.

You'll notice that . . .the Authority wasn't God. He was someone who at one point told everyone he was God, but he was lying. Pullman's "god" was something entirely different.

I'm more interested in the classic mistakes and strengths of each and all religions than pitting one against the other.

Mmm. On this note, this is a subject wherein my story becomes much more non-fantasy.

Within my story, there's nothing to say that any religion is right. Religious "power" has some effect on ordinary magic . . .but a Christian's devoutly said prayer has the same general sort of effect as a Witch's well-cast Working or a Buddhist's meditation. Gods don't intervene in my story; no angels come down from on high. I don't even have demons, per se; what's a leprechaun on the Bright Court's side is a goblin on the Dark Court, but they're essentially the same creature.

So it's all up in the air. The main story is filtered through the perceptions of my point of view character, who is a practicalist Witch who is in constant doubt of all faiths, including her own. :: shrugs:: I like it better that way.

at the end should the squire have a large punishment, or have a spreaded forgiveness?

That depends, I think, on the theme of your story. Is forgiveness a big theme? Then it should reflect that.

Nar

07-11-2002, 08:37 AM

Naaramare, You'll notice that . . .the Authority wasn't God. He was someone who at one point told everyone he was God, but he was lying. Pullman's "god" was something entirely different.
Oh yes, and I should have included instiutionalized authority-- Pullman hit that most effectively-- the institute is the scariest thing in the story-- I can't think of that operation in the first book without getting the shakes. The closest thing to my idea of God in the story is the Dust... but if I was writing it, they would find it had a multiplied consciousness -- in other words I'd have followed the characters who die, including the friend and the two 'so-bad-they're-good' sacrificers a little further into death and dustiness and discovered that condition more. Pullman leaves that somewhat open, I think -- what it's like when you're part of the dust. There are hints. However, I like Pullman's story as it is, it reflects his ideas and so it should. Finding that my love for the universe is requited after all is my faith some days, my fantasy other days.*sigh*

Lila, the fate of the squire depends on how he acts now, after his betrayal. A character who has done something so terrible it's wrecked their character/soul/what-have-you is potentially fascinating, as I'm sure Nazgul Number 10 would agree. When you've disgraced yourself in your own eyes, that's the real test of character: what do you do then, try to fix it? Try to punish yourself? Try to be better in the future?

Does your squire have care for the ones he hurt, or does he tell self-defensive lies to himself, throwing the blame on them? That's the real test. His story really only begins after he blows it! How he takes it should determine the consequences to him in the story-- if there's nothing of his original character left because he's reacted only with selfish defensiveness, then forgiveness helps his victims but can't save him. Gandalf's and Frodo's forgiveness helped them, but didn't save Saruman-- it could have, though, if Saruman had come out of his tower and helped or even just done no more harm.

Naaramare

07-11-2002, 10:02 AM

Pullman leaves that somewhat open, I think -- what it's like when you're part of the dust.

And I personally agree with that decision; after all, Pullman hasn't died, so he could hardly tell you! *L* It's similar, I think, to my own decision in my story to leave my gods behind the scenes and unprovable. Naturally, my characters believe--with varying degrees of fervency and faith--that their view of whatever's out there (picture vague hand-waving in the direction of some non-existant otherworld . . . ^~)is the view that's right, but as in real life, all their "proof" is subjective.

As to the betrayal issue, Lila, listen to Nar, whose explanation was much more useful than mine. ^^

Saxony Tarn

07-11-2002, 10:52 AM

Nar, that comment about Lorien and peril was deep, and all i can say is, great minds think alike. It'll be interesting to see how you interpret some of the levels that extrapolated themselves in my story as you read on, and i'm looking forward to it!! (having a little thread developing in my guestbook or something)

w/ regards to the squire, Lila, i vote you go w/ Nar's assessment -- as i'd have probably told you the same thing!

w/ regards to characters becoming beauty as they develop, i found the best example of this in a graphic novel (the Incal, Moebius was the artist, i can't recall the writer's name at present) and the main character was drawn fairer or uglier according to his actions at the time (high-minded & noble or base & immoral) -- symbolically, i found it extremely effective. With kudos to PJ & crew, i noticed the same effect in the movie w/ regards to a certain painfully human member of the Fellowship (when he went after Frodo in that rage, he really got UGLY)

oh, and we've started a good one about faith and magic, so let me toss in a quote from the tale i mentioned in an earlier post with my garage-band rock group caught up in a pre-Armageddon war-game exercise:

"My faith predisposes me to believe in magic" (says Kameron Schiller, leader of the band, in an interview somewhere in the book) "and my magic draws its strength from my beliefs. So when I see my best friend gleefully singing away to the eight-headed monster that he can't see perched over the drum kit but I clearly can, you'll understand why I get just a little bit nervous..."

|_|) <-- but as long as he's drunk, he can convince the beast that it's a figment of his imagination, and it leaves him alone. When he sobers up and it's still there, then he has to deal with it. "Ady, buddy, pal, comrade, about this new lyric of yours -- we need to talk..."

s.t.

Naaramare

07-11-2002, 11:00 AM

Saxony: As soon as my house is clean, I will get around to reading your story. I swear this as much to myself as to you (by the time I'm done with this bloody house I'm going to need some detox!)

My own favourite example of beauty/ugliness depending on the viewer is actually from a (pull out your stones and pitchforks everyone!) Harry Potter fanfic called Trouble In Paradise and Paradise Lost. You switch points of view and while the basic description of the character is still the same, the adjectives and subjectiveness change.

That little bit about the garage band people amuses me. Obviously, I do believe in magic--or, more accurately, magick, but I shan't get into the distinctions at the moment.

Within my story, the magick of faith can be either a help or a hinderance, even to the character's own side. If, for example, you have an elven mage trying to do a shielding spell and you have the athiestic Secondary Female sitting there not believing in any kind of magic at all, her faith in the non-existance of magic or magick can become so intense that the power and effects of it can seriously mess up the mage's spell.

This, at one point, leads the athiest to being turned spontaneously into a frog so the elven mage can concentrate, but that's not important. ^^

Saxony Tarn

07-11-2002, 12:25 PM

turning the atheist into a frog so as to concentrate on the spell... hmm....

i like that one...

:: wicked FRPG Gamemaster grin ::

and when it cools off down here, i may get another three chapters dumped into HTML and posted. And maybe even those missing lines that Gandalf and Denethor owe me might show up. It's only supposed to be 92 today (yeah, right. woe to me if i lived any further from the shore...) -- too hot to think.

|_|) <-- tall cold ones for staying cool. i think i'll make mine a milkshake today...

s.t.

Naaramare

07-11-2002, 12:34 PM

:: wicked FRPG Gamemaster grin ::

Oh dear, now I've gone and given Saxony ideas . . . . smilies/biggrin.gif

Anna Licumo

07-11-2002, 01:52 PM

On the note of religion, and how the other's beliefs affect each other:

In my (er, one of them) story, there are 4 major religions- two monothesisms,(sp?) one that allows magick, the other not. There's also two polytheisms- one with a varaity of gods and the other more... pagen, I suppose. Anyway, at one part one of the belivers in the monothesism with a belief in magic, tries to spell the others to protect them from a shower of bullets. It works on most of them, since they belive in magic, but the one who does not is not protected.

I.E. The belief makes anything done with an opposing belief not real. (Hmm, that did not make a whole lot of sense to me and I know what I'm talking about. Sorry!) This is my way of trying to walk that fine line of religious differences. Either that, or I have too much time on my hands to think of strange stuff like this. I haven't decided which yet. smilies/rolleyes.gif

Saxony Tarn

07-11-2002, 02:00 PM

welcome, Anna, and here is your official AYWSF pint:

|_|) <-- fill with the virtual beverage of your choice

sounds rather interesting; read on as i think we're about to delve into another scholarly discussion of magic and its mysterious workings. Or maybe not. There's some other posts on this topic to be found in LMP's index a page or so back -- enjoy, and post early and often!

s.t.

(BTW naaramare -- i ALWAYS have that wicked GM grin... worry not! i'm just grinning at Nar's having described one level of my fanfic w/o having read 90% of it yet...)

Lila Bramble

07-11-2002, 02:47 PM

Welcome, Anna, and I see Saxony has uphelp the tradition of giving the 'o sacred virtuial mug!

And everyone, thank you very much for the help and I've decided what I am going to do! Fill the mug on me, and Saxony, yes, you can have a milkshake smilies/wink.gif

|_|) <-----------

Anna Licumo

07-11-2002, 03:53 PM

Thanks for the welcome! And yes, I realize I'm posting *again*, but now I have a question to discusss rather than a statement.

Which are better, generally, character-driven plot, or... plot-driven plot. I.E., the action happens because of what a character does, or the char. is just along with the ride? Is a healthy mix of both the best, and how do you mix it up?

The difference, how I see it, is shown between Tolkien as plot driven, and Ranma1/2 (I know it's not great literature, but I'm having difficulties of thinking of anyother ones) as character driven.

In one of my stories, it's mostly character driven. The planet is wrecked by the invaders. Everything else is driven by how they react/ what they do. Whereas another story is about this Vampire case my character has to deal with; it's all action driven. This is why I ask:

Which is better? More interesting? How do you best mix it up?

Just wondering. Thought it would make an interesting topic, if the magick thread didn't go anywhere. Anyway, thank you!

Nar

07-12-2002, 08:49 AM

Welcome, Anna! Character-driven draws out the character, as his/her nature is influencing the plot. It requires more thought from the author about who the character is, so characters tend to become more specific, complex, and compelling. Specific characters, those who couldn't be mistaken for anyone else, they're real, compelling. A story like that is interesting for readers, it draws them in and generally increases their identification with the character, because they know much more about him/her. Plot turns that aren't character-driven can add excitement, irony, drama and suspense. Oh no, not THIS! NOW! What will the protagonist DO?

Plot turns are good as long as there are not too many 'pure events' -- purely plot-driven material is exciting in a generic way, but it's difficult to care about characters who are only reacting and have nothing to do with the shape of the story. It's hard to know them, therefore hard to feel for them.

Let's take character and event in LotR. When the ring lands in Frodo's hand, --event-- how he copes with it, how quiet, determined and protective of his friends and country he is-- that's determined by his character, and that is how we first come to know him. Throughout FotR, Frodo meets a series of imposing larger than life characters, --from his point of view, events-- When Frodo reacts, his courtesy always comes through. He always has something to say --character. The interplay keeps things interesting. Think of how much more interesting Frodo's meeting with Galadriel becomes after he figures out her desires and the source of her power and makes his offer of the ring. Events: 'Come to the golden wood, meeting the grand and beautiful elf, looking in her mirroring basin' are overtaken by character: 'recognizing the ring of adamant, offering the one ring in recognition of her strength, age and wisdom, overthrowing her temptation by inviting it in.' Frodo flips the encounter backwards: Galadriel, guide and judge of all who enter her realm, becomes the quester, making her way through the temptation of ultimate power. Frodo, the quester, becomes Galadriel's guide through that test; she passes it, perhaps helped by the example of hobbit-nature Frodo provides her.

In real life, our lives are a mix of character driven elements like self-sabotage and love and aspiration and 'plot-driven' events like diseases, aging, earthquakes, economic meltdowns, wars, famines-- some of these 'interesting times' are human-influenced, thus not entirely 'acts-of-the-universe' but they're not derived from the actions of any ONE of us. We can relate to an interplay of event and character because that's most like our existence.

littlemanpoet

07-12-2002, 11:04 AM

I have a lot of catching up to do! I've been reading, reading, but never have time to post. Well, I'll tackled a bit at a time I guess.

First, Welcome, ANNA! Glad to have you aboard. Post early and often, and what a great first question! Since ST has already pointed you toward the index on page 12, I'll not harp on it (too much).

Naaramare: As my bible-counsellor friend said: "You know there's something wrong with a book when the only interesting character is the Anti-Christ."
That is just such a good piece of wisdom. I like everything you had to say about religion, Naaramare.

I think I understand what you're saying by some people not being able to understand HDM, but I'm still curious what things you think would be too hard for them?

Saxony Tarn You bet I'm interested. Please send me the link.

your assessment of men vs. women is very much right on the nailhead
Thanks for saying so. Seems like a lot of nails are getting hit right on the head in this thread.

Potter's not just popular, it's popular with -- gasp, shudder -- CHILDREN. Young, impressionable CHILDREN... who are anything BUT fools. I like that. Especially the last phrase. How true. And then the fools who have fooled themselves into believing that they have actually thought through everything they believe without just accepting it as received, are scandalized that their own kids actually like the stuff. I can talk that way because I used to be such a fool - not that long ago. No kids to get scandalized about, though.

Lila: thanks for your advice, LMP Glad I could help.

Gotta go back to work. I'll continue catching up.

Happy writing!
lmp

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Naaramare

07-12-2002, 11:43 AM

what things you think would be too hard for them?

(pre-apologies for all those who haven't read them books, be alert for spoilers! ^^;;; )

My best example of what they tend to get hung up on is Mrs Coulter. Is she a heroine or a villainess? And when does she become which? She drugs Lyra, steals her from her friends, keeps her captive and controlled--yet she believes (or says she does!) that she's protecting her, and in the end gives her life for the "good guys", because of Lyra.

Where did the demarkation start? Why? There are a thousand different levels there to be looked at and read into. . .but I know that most of my friends (I love them dearly, but I'm an intellectual anomaly . . . sigh) would miss it. They would see the surface symptoms of bad-gal-turned-good and miss all the points beneath that.

Lord Asriel falls under the same category. He murders a child to bring about the end of an opressive, controlling Authority. Which side? What hat is he wearing, the villain's or the hero's?

Iorek Byrnisson, the Gallespian spies . . .even Lyra's no angel, nor is Will. She trusts him because the althieometer says he's a murderer, which she takes to mean that he won't lose his nerve--yet, she's responsible for preventing the death and soul-decay of the universe with her love.

The lines are very, very blurred. I appreciate that, as despite all the mythical and even religious themes Pullman raises, he's still telling the story of people, from their own eyes. And personally, I can't understand why all this is so difficult for the couple of people I've recommended the series to, to understand. I only understand that it is.

That, and I spent two very frustrating twenty minute conversations trying to explain to people what Dust was and why it was so important. ^^;;;

I like everything you had to say about religion, Naaramare

::blushes:: Thank you. It's something I spend a lot of time (probably too much!) thinking about in relation to fantasy stories and my own life.

Saxony Tarn

07-12-2002, 12:52 PM

LMP, glad to have you aboard. i'll send you the link at your FWW e-mail address, probably tonight after i check the temperature in the room. i've been on hiatus from the tale for two weeks now and hope i'll be able to get back on it soon. (at least i remembered to write down the event chain for where i expect it to head, barring reader input that sways me, of course)

Plot-twist vs character-foible... hmm... now there's a juicy meaty bone to chew on. Pardon me if i do. It seems to me that you must strike a balance between both or your story comes out one-sided. Plot rollercoasters without riders that we can relate to or care about their fates get boring after awhile. On the other hand, the one book i mentioned where the first 8 of 13 chapters were character intro and setup, like i said, i only read it because the crossword puzzle in the inflight magazine was already done by someone else. If nothing HAPPENS to even the most wonderfully drawn characters, readers get bored and wander off.

i was talking with a co-worker the other day (guy who's been around as long as LOTR has) about just that work and he remarked that he thought that midway through the saga the Prof's train derailed. i could have debated it with him except that for large chunks of the plot, i was inclined to agree. i know that on a Tolkien board this is tantamount to blasphemy, but that was just one man's opinion. Oddly enough, another of the sales reps (also a Tolkien fan) asked me for the link to my latest WIP.

So since it's better to show than tell, let me see -- take some delightfully diverse characters, throw them together in a less than stable environment (in this case, the Two Towers - ROTK timeframe) and see if they can build a cohesive team. Every time it looks like they're relaxing and getting complacent, drop something else in their lap (something logical that they'd encounter, of course -- no anvils raining from the heavens, except figuratively! B) ) and watch how they react. Just when you thought it waas safe, etc.

As long as you can keep that dynamic going, my friend, you've got a story.

s.t.

|_|) <-- skoal!

Eol

07-12-2002, 02:22 PM

I will keep this very brief, no need to be long winded!

I have been writing a story for the past five years with another friend of mine. Five years and four drafts, attepmted to publish it once and was reject and we were glad.

Interregnum is a what would be termed as a high fantasy story. It is everything that I want to find in reading in a fantasy story and never seem to find other then tolkien. The plot and characters are inspired unintentially from historical figures and some mythos.

I have only recently looked into Tolkien's development of his literary works and have it useful as a guide post of what needs to be developed and what we need to avoid. He(Tolkien) had many regrets wishing he could have changed some things and wanted to avoid stereotypes( dwarves and elves) Unfortuanatly that did not change.

The basic plot of the story focuses on a mercanry captain and an ellan. Once nation, Aeldenoce falls into Interregnum, where no obvious government is in rule It is very intense and very much under development.

Want to know more? http://home.attbi.com/~rpajari1/ the offical site for the developing story.

Lila Bramble

07-12-2002, 07:19 PM

Hey everyone. With all my questions, you can only imagine how many works I'm writing. I'm going to write an outline for a new story (not fanfiction) and does anyone know a good name for a paladin?

littlemanpoet

07-13-2002, 07:35 AM

Nar:
the best material in Pullman is the less didactic material where he just follows the story and characters and invents like wild. Well said.
I see a lot of classic mistakes, that occur almost identically across very different religions-- there are similar traps that new believers fall into, similar traps that fervent believers fall into, they can all recognize the phenomenon in rival religions but it's a rare insight to recognize the same trap in your own faith. Very, very well said. I agree!

Lila: I have nothing useful to add to Naaramare's and Nar's good advice.

Hmmm - name for a Paladin? I'd suggest something that evokes goodness or law or courtesy or honor or all four characteristics. Sir Justiciar? Sir Judical? Sir Goodlaw? Sir Formical? I'm sure you'll think of something better....

Saxony Tarn: "My faith predisposes me to believe in magic" (says Kameron Schiller, leader of the band, in an interview somewhere in the book) "and my magic draws its strength from my beliefs. So when I see my best friend gleefully singing away to the eight-headed monster that he can't see perched over the drum kit but I clearly can, you'll understand why I get just a little bit nervous..."

|_|) <-- but as long as he's drunk, he can convince the beast that it's a figment of his imagination, and it leaves him alone. When he sobers up and it's still there, then he has to deal with it. "Ady, buddy, pal, comrade, about this new lyric of yours -- we need to talk..."
Ack! Wild! I love it.

Thanks for the link! I'll be into it first chance I get, being fair to all my other time commitments...

Naaramare: Hoping for the distinctions between magic and magick. I can guess, but you got me curious.
the magick of faith can be either a help or a hinderance, even to the character's own side. If, for example, you have an elven mage trying to do a shielding spell and you have the athiestic Secondary Female sitting there not believing in any kind of magic at all, her faith in the non-existance of magic or magick can become so intense that the power and effects of it can seriously mess up the mage's spell....This, at one point, leads the athiest to being turned spontaneously into a frog so the elven mage can concentrate, Fulfilling Gandalf's promise to Sam, eh? By the way, I have imagined this kind of impingement of beliefs on each other, and used to wonder if it does not work something like that in the real world? These days I'm more of a skeptic in terms of what can really happen in our world. For example, "Okay, was that actually God speaking in my mind or was that just some authoritative part of me that purported to be God? And does it matter which one it was?
And by the way, which God?"

And thanks for the explication on HDM. Yes, the mixed black and white in a character is too difficult for some, is it not? My wife hates that kind but I think it's the most interesting, and very much what I write. I spend a lot of time (probably too much!) thinking about [religion] in relation to fantasy stories and my own life.
I used to, too but I found that such a pondersome and cumbersome amount of internal navelgazing was putting me into a part of purgatory way to grim to spend sunny days in. All that emotional angst about theology - ugh.

Anna Lucimo: (and Naaramare on related post above): The power of belief. There's an interesting topic. I've pondered writing about it myself; in fact, I did. It was in revision 2 or 3 of my current magnum opus, but the whole thing got so rewritten that that part of it did not survive the cuts. I'm glad someone's writing about it.

on character- vs. plot-driven narrative: This has been handled more than adequately by ST and Nar, but I just have to add my three cents (inflation, you know): I think a balance of the two is best. As ST has said, all character and little plot makes for a yawner (I've written such and boy did my readers protest). On the other hand, all plot and little character makes for something hard to relate to. Make your character someone your reader can relate to as quick as possible so that the reader cares about what happens to herim (hey! how's that for a 3rd person gender inclusive pronoun in this doggone English language of ours! or 'herhim' or 'hrim'?)

Eol: Interregnum looks quite interesting. Your experience in the publishing in the market may be helpful to the rest of us. You say you were glad to have been rejected. Sounds like you had a sympathetic publishing rep. who gave good advice. No? Yes? What was the advice? Hope to see more posts from you.

phew. Think I've caught up on it all.

No takers on the poem thing? I can understand not wanting to post here what you intend to publish some day. But what kind do you do? Free verse? Formal? What works best in fantasy in general and/or yours?

Tolkien, for example, always, always stuck to some form with a consistent rhyme and rhythm scheme. In fact, the Earendil piece Bilbo wrote is apparently one of the most challenging and ambitious pieces ever attempted. And Tolkien wrote at least two versions of it! (check to Tolkien Reader for the earlier version)

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]