Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[littlemanpoet]

Are any of you writing serious fantasy? If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien? How long have you been working on your story, and why? What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

As I remarked in "Kalessin's rant", I have been working on a fantasy story for fifteen years, inspired by Tolkien, trying - successfully I think - not to be imitative. It's not near being finished so I haven't even looked for a publisher yet.

[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Niphredil Baggins]

>Are any of you writing serious fantasy?

Yes.

> If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?

My story was first inspirated by some vivid dreams I had, before I had read Tolkien or any other fantasy. In these appeared the following:
A kingdom surrounded by impenetrable mountains, and
Seven magical sapphires.
Also, starting from the strange name in my dream, Jorgeyavagai, I've begun the making of a language.

I try not to imitate, but I can never be sure where the ideas come from. Nothing comes from nowhere, everything has a cause. I am not ashamed to steal from mythologies and such, indeed I use the Bible quite openly as the basis of my kosmogonia: angels and fallen angels, heaven and hell. Even God the Creator. How do I prevent imitating fantasy writers? Wish I knew. At the moment I do it by temporarily not reading fantasy, but it doesn't erase the memories.

>How long have you been working on your story, and why?

Approximately four years. I know I can write, so I want to use my gift in service to others.

> What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

I've run out of plot. Feels like I had in my hands a body without a skeleton. I have milieus and characters, but sometimes I just can't think of what to do with them.

I deal with this by writing the prehistory of my world, of writing something else and letting the ideas slowly mature in my subconcious.

As I remarked in "Kalessin's rant", I have been working on a fantasy story for fifteen years, inspired by Tolkien, trying - successfully I think - not to be imitative. It's not near being finished so I haven't even looked for a publisher yet.

Good luck (as if it had anything to do with this) and persistence!

[Haldir]

I wrote something once (few mounth ago), but
after about 90 pages on 5 chapters I snaped,
I can't tell you what it was about, because
I might still write it one day, I still have
the ideas but I have no strength to actually
write it down, my ideas can fill a discent
trilogy, and may be even more...

[Aralaithiel]

I guess fan fiction might not count as serious fantasy, but, I'll add my reply to this as well.
I was inspired after watching the FOTR. The idea for my fan fic just popped into my head, and I had to write it down. I personally love Tolkien's writing style, but I am not as verbose as he is. What's scary is that it is becoming a hefty saga! The more I write, the more new ideas come into my head. smilies/eek.gif
Guys, keep after your writing! I find it to be a release from the horrors and stress of real life. And, it sounds like you guys have some nifty story ideas! smilies/smile.gif

[Thinhyandoiel]

Are any of you writing serious fantasy?

Yes actually.

If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?

Very poorly I'm afraid. When it comes to plot, it's all my own (though influenced slightly), but the writing style is so similar I end up chastising myself afterwards.

How long have you been working on your story, and why?

Only about three months now. I have made up my own language for it, cuz I'd feel as if I was stealing from Tolkien if I used Sindarin or Quenya. It does have Elves, but they're MY Elves, and are quite different from Tolkien's Elves. In fact I like my Elves better (if that's even possible).

What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

Major writer's block. Keeping the character's personalities straight, confusing names in my own head. But the names Eflil and Elfal ARE quite similar...anyways, also some mild criticism from others that was meant well, but when I read it I was not in a good mood and took it quite badly. Other things that have set me back have been school-work & repeated viewings of LOTR (though I wouldn't call that a BAD thing).

But the love of my own world is too great to keep me from continuing with the story. I love my characters, my language and my world. ^.^ Writing's so fun!

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for the responses. I had hopes, but I had no idea what to expect.

Admittedly, I was thinking of other than fanfic, Araleithiel, but considering your words, The more I write, the more new ideas come into my head , it's clear that it has become serious for you. Keep at it! You never know how it might take on a life of its own, and that which Tolkien helped birth in you may end up becoming independent of his milieu and stand on its own.

Niphredil: I take my hat off to you regarding the creation of a language. That's beyond my patience or capability, as far as I know. I have been advised in the past that when I have run out of plot, I need to introduce conflict - even a seemingly impossible situation - which will move plot and develop character as well. I think you are right on about letting the ideas mature in your subconscious, as well, though.

KingCarlton: You don't offend me by preferring others' writing style to Tolkien's. Any good writer has to develop his or her own style. How have you been coming up with ideas, and how do you develop them?

Haldir: Your story is your own, and I think I can reassure you that nobody in the barrowdowns will steal your idea. What made you snap, if I may ask?

Thinghyandoiel: As above, kudos on the language thing. My guess is that you are so early in the process that the next three to five rewrites will excise any derivativeness out of your style. Regarding similar names, I have bowed to pressure from my sympathetic readers a good half dozen times to change names to make it easier on them - and on me in the long run.

Are any of you in a writers' group?

[VanimaEdhel]

*does not write serious fantasy yet, first of all...but when I am old enough to drive at least, I am thinking of starting...*

But I do write fantasy short stories a lot for English (and whenever I have a freewrite in any subject)...

And my writing style is very different from Tolkien's. One quirk I have is that almost all of my stories must be in the first person. My third person writing never turns out as well. I guess because I act, so it is easier for me to get into character and truly write as the character would write if it is first person.

And the themes? No: usually come from my dark, dark mind (for example: a first person short story from the point of view of a mad woman who is about to go on a murder spree...freaked my English teacher out). No problem creating new stories from me. When I create fanfic from Arda though, then I certainly do take the history of the races and Arda into account.

Well: that is what a fourteen year old does!

[Niphredil Baggins]

Creating a language is like learning one. The grammar comes first, for it controls not just the word order but the elements that form words. In ‘my’ language there are both prefixes and suffixes, and other such things I still have to tend to before I can actually form sentences… I’m limited to names and present time sentences at the moment… but thinking up words is not hard; they just appear in my head, and the scary thing is: they often relate to each other in form and meaning without my conscious intention… I’m going to need also an archaic form of the language, and possibly scratches and sketches of other languages too… I’m hooked to language-making!
I trust no-one is going to steal this if I give a sample:

Vadia eea Vallanais,
Valei ta mraneie.
Eleia mara Vallanais,
Varei um daleie,
Vallanais.

Dancing fair Vallanais,
Water from the mountains.
Streaming swift Vallanais,
River of the hills,
Vallanais.

I’m not sure about the meaning of ‘Vallanais’, it is a word from my dream. It has much to do with ‘Song.’

[StarCupcake]

I started writing "Quest in the Blue" before I read "Harry Potter" and Tolkien, yet had renewed inspiration after these.

It takes place in the Blue, a magical, terrible and beautiful world surrounded by the hapless Grey. Edensbale, a land in the Blue-south, is what I'm writing about right now, yet I might move about in the future. Edensbale in its beginning was a Land of Light and of Whole-power (neither good or bad). It appeared as its creators painted it upon the "First Map" and claimed it for their own; yet when their realm dissolved Edensbale was reflected into the deathly Sea of Glass and Elabsnede, the wickedness of shadows in the East, was created. Two children, Audrie Gallan and Alender Esbar, offspring of the Men in Sparklen, one a peasant's daughter, the other the Sparklen-master's son, must gather the pieces of the Map and use it for the wise Whole-power before their Edensbale is destroyed. Yet those who etched it into the Lost time of the Blue (Gremble, Traub and Ede) seek the broken pieces as well, but they desire them for the other's destruction, for they are sworn enemies. Audrie and Alender go on their quest with a piece each of the Sparklen-Map that Traub lost when attempting to slay them, which puts their life in danger, for each piece is precious and the only way to attain it is to kill he or she who holds it. They acquire some companions...Lemkil, of the Sweet-Folk in Cider Oaks and a cousin of Alender's. He is of clever, mischievous people who lived in eternal fairy-like childhood, and is of great use for his knowledge of tools and weapons and such. They speak Sweetlan. Excerpts:

Nislin: mother
Lintirn: starlight
Notra ta concerto pir notra ta concerto: nothing is for certain except that nothing is for certain (one of their favorite phrases).

Another of their companions is Milen, a fair White-fire bearer of the Forest of Jade, where Ede is queen. Her power lies in the Whole-power itself, for from her hands pale flame turns those wicked and good into servers of the wisest and most peaceful.

Lastly, Bae, a mysterious dark boy from the East who turns out to be Traub and Ede's son and the last of their children who was not slain to attain the Map-pieces they held. He joins the quest with closed identity, yet they discover him in soon time, for they are sent to find him in the first place, as he holds the third of the Map-pieces they might acquire for the White-power.

There are other folk and places and languages and so so so much more but it all gets a bit complicated you see smilies/smile.gif

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I finished my first serious fantasy novel last summer. It's not written like Tolkiens works, but the way it's organized sort of like it.
Like the first book is the prelude to a trilogy I'm writting. The plot is very confusing and intricate and nothing like lotr. It's basically about this land called Patarea thats under a curse that was set because of the marraige between a faeire girl and the prince of Patarea, (I love romance in fantasys! smilies/biggrin.gif)

[Kalessin]

Nice topic smilies/smile.gif

I consider myself an occasional writer and regular storyteller. And I am under no illusions about my limitations (or failings) as an author ...

Personally, I think your point about trying not to imitate is very relevant, and one of the reasons why I tend to shy away from any formulaic aspects of fantasy (you may have seen my skits on page 1 of the "Valid Criticisms" thread).

I certainly would not create my own language. That in itself would seem imitative, and in fact unnecessary, as I write best in English. I also have a problem with 'other-worldly' names. Just you try and think of a name that is not redolent of a particular work or author! In my case existing names from other languages will suffice if I need a sense of ancient-ness or exotica.

The bottom line for me is that an extensive cosmology is neither a key factor nor particularly inspiring (" ... hmm, I think I'll spend tonight typing up the courtship rituals of the hidden tribes of Ashtoreth ... "). A narrative is not like an RPG scenario. For example, you do not need to know the history of the First and Second Ages to fully and deeply appreciate LotR. Neither are you obliged to read the appendices (Tolkien was quite happy for people not to). A worldview can be implied, and the reader can be given some responsibility for contextual detail. "Continuity" in the movie sense (ie. some consistency and integrity to any imaginary world) is normally inferred (and thus conferred) by the reader - it's just up to you not to blow it, unless that's an intended part of the deal.

If you know 'The Stories of Eva Luna' by Isabel Allende, or the collected works of Jorge Luis Borges, that might help to signpost (with many caveats) my aspirations as a fantasy writer.

However, as a storyteller, I have no qualms about liberally plagiarising episodes, names and ingenuities from a whole range of sources, and combining them to whatever effect, depending on the time and nature of the telling. Of course success is never guaranteed, so I occasionally throw in an idea or two of my own smilies/smile.gif

Peace

[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

[Rose Cotton]

Yes I am writing a story.

But I haven't been at it very long. Only a few months.

I have three chapters. Woohoo!

I try to not worry about copying authers.
I feel that if before hand. I create the world then create each charicter, inside and out then I should be able to have my own ideas. I also like combining writing stiles. Take what you like from each of your favorite books. Combine it to make your own unique writing style.

I'm only 13. So I have a long road of writing ahead of me.

What I'm going to do is I will write this story. And as I grow older, I'll keep going back to add and improve it. Till finilly I feel it's ready.

I suggest if you have trouble with a plot you should figure out what the end of your story is going to be. Then you can make twists and turns you wouldn't normally make if you just went along. I love when a auther foreshadows.

If you read this far then I thank you for listening to someone as young as me. Wish me luck!

[grimlock]

Wauw, I found my dream topic.

I like to write a lot, though it is not very professional writing. I also am forced to write for myself, because nobody in my surroundings cares for fantasy a lot.

About the imitation: sometimes I think up a fanfic story, then find elements which I can use in another story. The characters change untill they are so far from their origin that they are no longer recognizible and have to be renamed.

I want to thank everybody for the advice on dealing with a writer's block. I 'll remeber it for next time I have one.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm enjoying your responses, everyone.

Rose Cotton: I think it's great that you're following your aspirations already. Keep at it! smilies/smile.gif

Welcome, Mirlos. That you wind up with your own story after starting fanfic makes a lot of sense to me.

Kalessin: Whereas I agree with you in general regarding the pitfalls of creating ones own language, I would encourage someone for whom that kind of creativity comes naturally - that is, seems to bubble up from their subconscious. I offer a caveat that if ones language creation happens to do little more than give new or alternate meanings to recognizable words from a given language, then it would be advisable to either reconstruct the words so they don't too closely resemble extant words, or discontinue wasting precious story telling energy on what's not working very well and get to the plot and character development.

Niphredil, for example, seems to me to have a gift for it whereas StarCupCake is recognizable to me as Latin in code. Please understand, Star, that I speak benevolently and, I hope, constructively. I'm intrigued especially by you Bae character, who appears to be Jungian shadow archetype birthed from the archetypal Father and Mother. There is something about him that bears a power reaching back into the depths of time.

Anarya: More power to you. Romance is fitting in fantasy.

KingCarlton: Your comment to keep in mind the set genre is an apt point.

My own process was that I started out with a few key (archetypal) tableaus which had come to mind full-formed; one of an ancient scene of sacrifice to appease the gods, somewhere in Wales, I suppose; another of a ruin where collanades still stood, somewhere east of Cornwall. I really cannot say why these things seemed placed in Britain, for I've never been there. Perhaps it's that my imagination was baptized by Tolkien, and England is somehow my adopted homeland, even though my forebears all come from the Netherlands. Anyway, with these scenes in place I posed a corpus of questions: 1. What if all the mythologies were true (their mutual exclusions based on 'my turf-ism')? 2. What if the starting point for all of it was to be found in the Genesis 6 account of the sons of God and the daughters of men, but not limited to that gender set? 3. What if Enoch (in the Book of Enoch) was close but got it wrong as to the wholesale damnation of the sons of God?
4. And most importantly for my own story: what if there were some college age men and women who unknowingly were descended, relatively pure in stock, from certain Nordic and Celtic gods and goddesses, who in every fourth, fifth, or sixth generation, remarried into their own descendants' line to keep the seed relatively pure? and 5. What if there are a few swords of power (bearing spirits of power) that are so powerful they singlehandedly (pardon the pun) tip the balance of power? So there you have it. Fifteen years later I think one more rewrite will get me ready for publishing. I am currently in my sixth full rewrite.

Am I to understand that none of you are in writers' groups? I wasn't for a long time, but have been for the last two years and I have found my sympathetic readers' help invaluable. Tolkien was in a writers' group, too, you know.

I'm running out of time because I have a writers' conference to get to. Next post I'll share my notes from a forum entitled: "Keys to Successful Publishing of Fiction".

Happy writing, all!

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

I have tried many times but i dont seem to be able to keep going. I love imaganing worlds but cant write stories without a proper reason.

[Starbreeze]

YES YES YES YES YES ! I love this topic, and when I have enough time I will answer it with a post that has some relevence to the topic, but now I'm just going to express my joy at finding so many authors with similar problems (I'm sure you won't mind me calling you authors!) Oh I'm so gald I found this topic, but I've got to go and make/eat lunch or I will starve (ah, the life of an artist/writer!) I haven't eaten for ages and soon I will fall of my perch, so I will return and with a more comprehendable answer and hopefully when I can spell again too.

[Maikadilwen]

I've been working on a novel for 5 months now, but I know it won't be finished in at least a year or two from now or maybe even longer. I'm trying to keep it in a language similar to Tolkien's, since I think it gives a certain.....spirit to the story. It kind of rips you out of the real world. The plot I won't tell you about smilies/wink.gif , but it's sort of "typical" fantasy. Good vs evil great heroes, great(er) villains and so on and on and on. I get my inspiration from a lot of different fantasy books, movies (not necessarily fantasy) and a very big part of several chapters, has come from my dreams. Even though I'm not even half way through it, I know the entire story. Except, that I have no idea what so ever how it's going to end. So I'm waiting patiently for what may pop up.. smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif It's a lot of work, especially because I'm writing in english (Tolkien style) but I'm actually danish. But frankly, that's not a problem, since most of the time I think and even dream in english.
I think it could be really fun, if someday we end up reading each others work. smilies/smile.gif

[Rose Cotton]

I hope you don't mind.

Since most of us are writers here I was wondering if you could take a look at my story plot and tell me what you think.
PLEASE DON'T TAKE ANY OF MY IDEAS

There's another world.
It has no humans. Just animals and plants.
On the planet is an island called Palania.(I got that off the name generator. Can't remember what it means though. smilies/biggrin.gif )
The island is made up of a huge volcano. In the volcano live evil shadow creatures called nefchil (somtimes when I'm writing my story I accedently call them nazgul). When they've multiplied enough they set out to attack the planet. Every time this happens almost everything is destroyed.
So one day someone (God?) sent angels to protect the earth. Each angel had a certain speacies of animal to look after. And they have the power to change into whatever animal they have to protect.

Thousands of years go by with the angels battleing the nefchil and keeping a balence of good and evil.
Till one day everything goes wrong.
For some strange reason many of the animals start acting strange. Attacking eachother, and going crazy, and finally dying.
They find out what is wrong. (I can't tell you it's a secret)
In order to stop the cause they must find the sorce.
Their journey takes them into the depts of the earth to dark caverns and places of hell. They find civilizations of dragons and huge monsters.

There is alot of drama and loss in this story but a good supply of humer too.

It's not the most complicated story but it should be pritty good. If you would like to see the first few chapters:
1)go to fanfiction.net
2)type The Protectors into title search at the top of the page
3)scroll down till you come to The Protectors story by Rose Cotton

smilies/biggrin.gif thank you for reading this post. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Little_My*]

Hi Rose Cotton...Nice idea for a story...I might copy it now! kidding..
anyway...If I write something like fantasy it will be about things in the nordic mytologi...I dont know if any of you knows that much about it(you rellay should! seance Tolkien took alot of it in his stories)
anyway...Someone intressted about it?

[Daegwenn]

My writing is my precious 'gift' to myself and my friends. I enjoy writing just as much as I enjoy a beautiful sunset. There is just something fulfilling about writing all those feelings that you have cooped up inside of you and not being scrutinized for it.

I am a serious Fantasy writer, or at least I like to think so. Right now, I am working on a piece that is set around a world spliced in to many peicies by a desert. Two elves go out on a quest to seek a treasure but only stumble across big-time trouble. A set of guantlets that are possessed, one by an evil spirit and one by a good spirit. Mylryt, the girl with the good gauntlet, has to lead a war against her best friend, Nanyna who is possessed by an evil time witch called Xantha. Mythryt is followed around by these two massive wolves that are like ghosts, they talk to her and only a few elves can see them. She befriends a dark elf prince with a quacky mother who is empress of a massive desert realm. ^_^ I am stuck at the beginning of their quest to unite the kingdoms. I introduced a drunken mage that can barely cast magic because he is always drunk, and very intimidating warrior that is always breaking up fights between the mage (Who is also perverted) and Mylryt. (He keeps on grabbing her and making inapropriate guestures).

I can't finish it because no one is willing to look at it. We are our harshest critics and if I listen to myself grumble about how terrible it is, I might miss out on something. If your on the outside looking in, you see more details. I have been working on this mess for about eh...a year and a half maybe. But I keep dropping it for months at a time and coming back to it...

I have my inspirational novelists though. Meredith Ann Pierce and Ursula LeGuin play a big part in getting me into the mood. I love the Darkangel trilogy because it is so dark and very odd. I need to be in a certain mood to write certain stories. If I cannot grasp that mood then I can't write. Books help me do that-so does music.

I have written my fair share of Fanfictions and I am still doing it. I guess it helps me get over the temptation of mimicking anything that Tolkien has written.

~~Daegwenn

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Daegwenn ]

[Maikadilwen]

Little_My* that sounds very interesting indeed. Being danish, I know a lot of the Nordic mythology. It's an obsession I've had since being a child (a VERY long time ago). If you start the project and have any trouble, feel free to ask any questions you'd like. smilies/wink.gif

[Starbreeze]

Rose that sounds really good! When it is published let us know!
I like the sound of your one too Daegwenn.
Wow, I never knew there were so many authors here on Barrowdowns!

[Aralaithiel]

Oh my!!! The talent oozing from this thread is AWESOME!!!!! smilies/biggrin.gif
I too am very possessive of my writing and my little world that I have created. And yes, my fan fic is starting to stand alone, at least the *gasp! smilies/eek.gif second book will! To you guys that are creating your own language, you are way braver than I! For my 2nd book, I am "finding" a lost group of Elves. Their language spun off from Quenya and Sindarin, and is actually Choctaw (for those of you non-Americans, the Choctaw are one of the Five Civilized Tribes that were forced to move here to Oklahoma) Indian. They have a great website, and there are quite a few similarities between Choctaw and Sindarin. Anyways, Aralaithiel's grandmother (my fan fic character is named Aralaithiel) will be descended from this "lost" group, and will have taught Aralaithiel's mother some of that tongue which Alesse (my mother)will put in a letter to Aralaithiel that she will discover later.
And I wouldn't worry about anyone stealing ideas on this board! Now, anywhere else you might post your work - that's another story.
Sorry to be long-winded! I am really getting quite a thrill reading this thread! smilies/smile.gif

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I love to write but I can never find people to talk about their writings and stuff like that with me. They always say, "Oh I can't write" or some other lame excuse. But my view is that everyone writes in their head and it's just a matter of getting it down on paper! Thanx to the person who started this topic! Thanx sooo much!

[Vinyacairwen]

I am..I've been working on it for more than two years. It have Elves (but not because of Tolkien..it was from a brief obsession over a certain anime), Dwarves, Men (durr), and Sylphs..funny li'l winged guys. I think in a way, I'm writing it for my Dad (who actually is a loser sorta and needs to come back to Cali) and of course, my bud Stephanie, only one of my friends who's actually been helpful. When I'm down, she shoves me off to the writing desk ^^.
Pitfalls, mm..sorta :\. The first and second chapters, y'know, giving the main or starting characters the boost they needed out of the door and into the real world. First and Second chapters always bug me..and then the thing with religion...screw all the gods and things they do in Dragonlance, I decided that was to annoying, overused and not to mention /complex/, so my guys just have the elements and spirits, aye...

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Vinyacairwen ]

[Starbreeze]

Ok, here is my proper answer now I have eaten something.

>Are any of you writing serious fantasy?

Yes, I am.

>How have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?

Well, I try and read some of Tolkien first so that I know what his work is like and don't get it muddled in my head and think that it is my own. I also make sure that I show it to one of my friends regualrly, she keeps me in check and makes sure I don't do anything even remotely similar to Tolkien.

>How long have you been working on your story, and why?

How long? Well, really several years - thats how long the ideas have been forming and I've been writing down possible 'names' and things in my notebook (actually 4 notebooks and several bits of paper, plus my pencil case and the back of several photos that were lying around when I was inspired). But I didn't start actually writing the bulk of it until I joined here, in January (obviously you guys inspired me!). Since then I have had one break of a week while I prepared for my art exam but apart from that I have been writing solidly.
I don't understand the 'why' part of that question though.

>What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

One of the major problems I have encountered is battle scenes and general fighting, as I have nver encountered such myself I can't write about it very well. And I keep getting to bits that need a fight or battle. So far I have left gaps, planned who has died and left it until I get inspiration. *sighs* can anyone tell me how to get around this?

Oh ***** have to go eat again! Right in the middle of my answer too, oh well, I'll be back soon to finishe my answer! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Little_My*]

thanks Maikadilwen, it would be really nice to chat and exchange ideas sometime...

I would write about elfs and pretty much everything thats in the nordic tales...

If you want to know more about the original elfs and dwarfs...go in here:
http://home6.swipnet.se/~w-66906/ginnungagap/gge_giants.html

[Manelwen]

I think that there are two great pitfalls of writing. One is starting it and the second is finishing it. I get so involved with my characters and I actually start to love them as if they were my children and I dread when I have to finish the story. smilies/frown.gif It's like a good book series. Tolkien is a fine example. You know that I almost screamed when I read the final sentence in the Lord of the Rings series.

I created a race of elves that were like were wolves. They had dark copper color skin, raven colored hair, and golden eyes. The one thing that set them apart from all the other races of elves was the horn that was on the center of their forehead. It curved around to a point on the back of their head and who ever touched it would transfer all of their memories and thoughts to the elf briefly. The horned elves changed into wolves at will. The colors of the wolves were usually black, grey or white but the queen of the wolves was a tell-tale silver and black, they all had a massive horn in the middle of their head and depending on their gender and age it could vary between a small slender horn in human form to a massive pointed horn, or a ridged horn like a ram's that changed into a deer antler. They lived far apart from any other group of people because they thought others wouldn't accept them. I haven't really made an actual story out of it, just character drafts. The queen and her brother mainly. I have tried to develop a language that was a cross between Chinese and French but it isn't quite working out the way I wanted it to.

I have been messing around with these characters for quite some time. It came to me in grade ten for a writing assignment and I have sort of nursed it along. I have sketchbooks crammed with pictures and little stories that are like lengends or explanations. I got the idea from a Chinese myth about wolf messengers from god that were only known to have a single deer antler on its forehead.

I try my hardest not to be influenced by authors. I read a lot so I develop my tastes from there. I write a lot of fanfictions too, so it helps a bit in the further expansion of my talent.

-Manelwen

[Maikadilwen]

there are two great pitfalls of writing. One is starting it and the second is finishing it
Exactly my thoughts as well, though I think that finishing a story is the most difficult to do, because it must be done properly. That's where my biggest troubles lie. It won't work if the story is ended within 7 pages. Something even prof. authors are dealing with. Like King and Koonts (I love horror). They tend to gather all loose ends like with a snap of their fingers. I think it has to be a little more than that.
I prefer to use some of Tolkien's "rules", such as Elves being immortal and not just longlifed but I also bring in other races that you know from other things, like hob-goblins and such. Besides that, I've created a new race, which gives me a lot of freedom, since no one else than me knows how this race is, but it's a rather complex race that actually makes Tolkien's Elves look like the happiest people on (middle) Earth. Not very lighthearted people. smilies/wink.gif

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Maikadilwen]

I would write about elfs and pretty much everything thats in the nordic tales...

Sounds good, but you must remember one very important thing here. The elves in Nordic (Skandinavian) folklore is absolutely NOTHING alike the elves we meet in Tolkien's books or any other fantasy stories. They lived inside the hills, and were deceiving and treacherous people. The beautiful elven girls were dancing in the night and would try to persuade nightly travellers (always men) to join the dance. If one did so, usually he would either be found dead in the field in the morning, or he was never to be seen again. One thing to notice is, that their backs were hollow and that way you would know, that they were elves and couldn't be trusted.
Definately NOT the lovely Galadriel in LOTR. smilies/wink.gif

[Starbreeze]

Ok, continuation of my answer...

>What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

Ok, the battle thing. I can't get over it at all. I can describe the events in a battle but I can't get feeling into it and it seems to superficial.
Another problem I have is that the ideas come into my head too fast. I would be writing a bit about Tomar and Imila at Sir Salar's house, when suddenly I would be inspired about a part from later in the plot when Yanata and Yphilon are riding down to Tirone. Then as I am writing that a converation between Chrisa and Kamia before either of the past to scenes will pop into my head. I can't keep up! Does anyone wlse get this? How do you overcome it?
Another problem (sorry if I'm boring you!) I feel that my work is sometimes a little longwinded and boring.
Niphredel, I admire you so much for trying to create a language. I am trying to and I am finding it a little tricky. I am also trying to create a runic language rather like the primitive languages of our world, sanscript and the like.

Ok, a few questions.

How do you guys feel about including a *hmhm* sexual *hmhm* relationship in your story. I don't mean an innocent romance, but the kinda thing that would make your granny faint - like the stuff modern authors are fond of using. I tend to dislike this but I would be interested to see what everyone here thought.

Next, how do you keep track of names etc. and phrases you like, that pop into your head? I mean, I keep it all in a notebook, that I carry around every where so if anything inpires you you can write it down.

Next, what inspires you? Is it everyday things, or something you read, or dreams? Or a mixture?

Next, (wow, I ask a lot don't I lol), How do you feel about other people reading your work? Would you be brave enough to share it with the world and publish it or would you be like me (and Maika apparently), who are too scared to even show people we have known for years?

Next, how long do you write for before you feel that it is finished and you can't do anymore without spoiling it? As an artist too I know that somethimes you could work on something for ages then wake up next morning and know that it is finished, or you could work on something for a day and feel the same way after lunch.

Next, (almost finished!) Do you illustrate your work or leave it to the reader's imagination? And do you want to design your own front cover or have someone else do it?

Ok, I think I'm done now. Sorry about all that but this is the first time I have 'met' with so many other writers and I just can't resist asking you things that have been plaging me for ages. Thank you all! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Starbreeze]

I think that last one might just have been my longest post ever!

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I forgot to tell my pitfalls. Alright I have a terrible time with writers block and to tell you the truth I am in the middle of one right now. I try to rack my brain for ideas and nothing comes! Its sooooo frustrating smilies/mad.gif

[cheeto]

yes
not really,I had the ideas for what I'm doing before I knew much about Tolkien
2 years
I've tried not to,and I can't do it
losing what I write,I've always had a problem with that,that and finding time
keeping a lot of copies around helps,unfourtunatly recently,not all of my copies were updated when I lost a disk,still don't have enough hours in a day to get half of what I want accomplished

my story's about the adventures of a fairy,there's different cultures and societies for all things she runs into including sprites(based off of Greek nymphs)dragons(based off of western dragon stories,wolf society,and pieces of different tribes as far as attatude goes)elves(nothing like the Tolkien ones,a lot like stories of the old wood elves,with a few of my own ideas)ogres(wild monster like nomads suited for an area in my world)of course faeries(based on a modernized complex version of old faeries)and a ton of other things

there isn't neccessarily a bad guy in the story(no dark lord),like real life(imo)there's ppl that switch between bad and good,based on interactions with others

[StarCupcake]

"Quest in the Blue", although I strive for its simplicity, is far too complicated to be run together in that (relatively narrow) comment I posted. From the first time I "met" the first of my two main characters (for the boy and girl are equals, and their view point changes every book) Audrie, I knew that this fantasy, this adventure had been in my heart long before I ever set it in paper. It's a whimsical and lyrical series about merry and dark times, but also often presents subtle wisdom on how desperate putting lines between good and evil is. It's the ultimate ode to childhood, in which my characters enter adulthood with all the grace and disgrace that can be expected of teenagers on a quest to prevent their very existence in time being destroyed... smilies/smile.gif

Starbreeze:

There is plenty of romance underlying in "QB", but I have no desire for sexual tones. There might be a vague passionate trace, but there is more love than anything else, if you know what I mean.

I don't have a hard time keeping track of names. I'm so very careful about writing that I almost feel like I've known them and been there for ages. It's like forgetting your own name.

In the opening sequence, the Blue is:
A world upon a lost time, remembered in that strange and beautiful place between sleep and wake. Those in the Blue, indeed, live only on the border of a terrible dream; few have the courage to pass, yet all hope to awake with only the memory of fear in them.

Yes, I have a lot of inspiration from my dreams. I started writing it, in fact, after that odd lull that would later become part of my opening sequence above. I FELT as if I were in the Blue, and from then on I knew that my fate was to write the story.

If the opportunity is given, I would submit my series (once satisfied) without a second doubt to a publisher I respected. I do not aspire to be the next Tolkien or Rowling, I want to be a writer, simply enough.

I am hardly ever satisfied with my work. Sounds disheartening, but true. I doubt any serious writer really is. Even the passage I love most of all is always in question, always with the "Edit" option available.

I love to draw, so I've absentmindedly drawn a few scenes out of QB, but I despise any fantasy work with illustrations, no matter how good they are. I imagine from certain Tolkien editions with drawings stemmed a lot of unnecessary debates about Legolas' damn hair color, Aragorn being "too pretty" or Sam "being fat". Authors in general should withhold too much description, because imagination is the most precious thing you can have when you're brooding alone at night, and dark is all about you.

[Niphredil Baggins]

Starbreeze, I share your problem with battles. So far I've solved it by: not having too many wars, my world is a relatively peaceful world ( things worse than wars have happened by magic) and:
taking the point of view of single characters. But I think I'll have to read something on medieval warfare before I can say my battle-scenes finished.

Another trouble I'm facing are horses. I've never ridden one. Many girls know horses from childhood, I don't. Of course, I can always find out, but I'm afraid of making some silly mistake.

[Starbreeze]

Niphredil, I also had a problem with horses, but just by reading riding books and novels about horses (e.g. Black Horses for the King) I managed to gather enough information to be able to write fairly fluently about them.

[littlemanpoet]

Getting Published

My writers' festival is done. I learned a lot and will share much of it in later posts, at least what's applicable to the concerns voiced so far.

The talk I'm relating was given by a literary agent out of New York. He said:
1. It's easier than ever to get published, and harder than ever to make a career of it. That doesn't mean it's suddenly easy to get published, just not as bad as it once was. (There was a lot he said that I won't bore you with.)
2. Know your market. Don't tell someone "I have a romance/horror/science fiction/fantasy type work. We all know we're doing fantasy; case closed.
3. Get Help. Find mentors, teachers, authors, writer's groups. If you are afraid that they will somehow damage your story, I can relate to that because that was how I felt; but when I finally stopped being scared of losing possession of it, I discovered that my sympathetic readers respected the story as my story, cared about my success as a growing writer, and had some good insights I was too close to it to see.
4. Write well. Well, duh. But the main problem literary agents and publishers see is that a book is not ready. Here are some ways that a book might be 'not ready':
- unsympathetic characters. the reader needs to be able to bond, have a connection to, your protagonist(s). This doesn't mean that your character has to be nice or likeable, just that he/she has to have some kind of strength that draws the reader to him/her.
- sympathetic protagonist is finally discovered on page 14. Introduce the character right away. Make the character
known to the reader straight off. So many people seem to think (are told) that you need to set up the story first, then get around to characters. Readers love characters, love to care about the characters, even a little bit. Once you've got that, then the reader will be interested in the conflict the character enters.
- lack of conflict. Put some kind of conflict, some kind of tension, in page 1, or as close to the beginning as possible. Invest tension in every page. It doesn't have to be your BIG conflict on page one, just enough of something to get the reader to turn the page and get the reader to the main one.
5. Make your character(s) memorable. Think of Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Gollum. Memorable! Heck, we can't forget them if we tried and certainly don't want to.

That's that. On to the next thing. Happy writing!

[Starbreeze]

Wow, thank you Little Man Poet, great advice there. I am really beginning to feel that I need to join a writers group.

[grimlock]

Wow Starbreeze, that are a lot of questions! Now for the answers:

No real sexual things, just plain old romance in my stories. Where do I get my inspiration? Loads of places: dreams, the news, but most of all: lyrics of Goth songs (weird huh?).

Uhm, letting other people read what I write: defenitely NOT. Mostly because my friends hate fantasy. I do illustrate (well I try at least) my work, but more for my own desire than to help others.

If a get a good idea, it's mostly in class, so I just write it on whetever coursebook we're seeing at the moment smilies/smile.gif

I hope that answered your questions and good luck on whatever you're writing!

[Starbreeze]

Thank you mîrlos, your answers are very useful, and they seem to be the same as mine pretty much. I tend to write all over my school books too, I got really told off about it in my history class, though I had scribbled the plan for one of the major battles in the book so I don't know why he was complaining, I mean, wars are history aren't they?! smilies/biggrin.gif

[dragongirlG]

A writers' community type thing is FanFiction.net (http://www.fanfiction.net), and it's not only for fanfiction, it's for original works too. I'm a member of it. It's really great because it's easy to review others' works and such, and one gets exposed to a lot of creativity.

My answers to Starbreeze's questions
How do you guys feel about including a *hmhm* sexual *hmhm* relationship in your story. I don't mean an innocent romance, but the kinda thing that would make your granny faint - like the stuff modern authors are fond of using. I tend to dislike this but I would be interested to see what everyone here thought.
I don't mind using romance if it's part of the plot. If it's just an out-of-nowhere sexual one-night stand thing and has absolutely nothing to do with the story, then I don't write it. But usually it's part of the plot.

Next, how do you keep track of names etc. and phrases you like, that pop into your head? I mean, I keep it all in a notebook, that I carry around every where so if anything inpires you you can write it down.
I usually write them down in a journal or save them in a file, then refer back to them when necessary. I usually try to keep them in my head though.

Next, what inspires you? Is it everyday things, or something you read, or dreams? Or a mixture?
Mostly a lot of real-life situations inspire me, but I write a lot of short stories based on things I've read or what I think could be possible.

Next, (wow, I ask a lot don't I lol), How do you feel about other people reading your work? Would you be brave enough to share it with the world and publish it or would you be like me (and Maika apparently), who are too scared to even show people we have known for years?
I'm not really afraid of showing people my work when it's finished. I hate it when people ask to see my work when I just start working on it. However, most people I know don't even know that I write things outher than school assignments.

Next, how long do you write for before you feel that it is finished and you can't do anymore without spoiling it? As an artist too I know that somethimes you could work on something for ages then wake up next morning and know that it is finished, or you could work on something for a day and feel the same way after lunch.
I don't know...I usually take time to edit, proofread, and change things, etc...I'm never finished right away.

Next, (almost finished!) Do you illustrate your work or leave it to the reader's imagination? And do you want to design your own front cover or have someone else do it?
If I ever get anything published, I would probably draw the cover myself, but I would prefer to have no drawing on the cover. I like letting readers use their own minds when they read.

Answers to the original post
Are any of you writing serious fantasy?
Yes...sort of...
If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien? My plot isn't Tolkien-like. It'd probably classified as "sci-fi" but I think it's fantasy.
How long have you been working on your story, and why?
Um...not very long...
What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?
My biggest pitfall is procrastination in writing down my ideas, and I have overcome it by writing down the basic plot, a few details, then elaborating on the story.

Writing is my passion. I love doing it. It's the haven I go to so I can release stress and anger and fear. I also love knowing what other people think of my work, and suggestions for improving.

[littlemanpoet]

I'm thinking now that my primary question is vague. Who is to say what's serious fantasy and what isn't? I'm sure that each of us is serious about our own writing, especially when we're doing it, but that's not the same as writing serious fantasy. So I'll outline (off the top of my head) different, say, levels of seriousness, and see what you think:

1. Serious as personal escape from the mundane stuff we face each day. Nothing wrong with serving oneself for the sake of emotional health, it just seems to me to be the least serious of the reasons to call my work serious fantasy.
2. Serious as self-expression, which is the beginnings of art.
3. Serious as communication of personal loves and desires, which is one step above #2 because I the writer am not merely blurting, but trying to connect to my reader.
4. Serious as a believable story with inner consistency, memorable characters, and an engrossing plot.
5. Serious as an artistically well written story that communicates a sense of wonder and desire in the reader, along with the aspects described in #4.
6. Serious as a tale that includes #4 & #5 attributes, and is mythic in scope, changing the reader's awareness and expanding the reader's sense of being alive.

I consider Tolkien to have achieved #6, of course. I dearly want to get to 4, 5, and 6 with my story, and will not be happy with it if I can only settle for #4. I want #6.

Tarlondeion of Gondolin:
I have tried many times but i dont seem to be able to keep going. I love imaganing worlds but cant write stories without a proper reason.
What would be a proper reason?

KingCarlton: I wish you the greatest of success, especially in fairy tales for children. I have a hunch that the limitations of that form and audience may help you really enhance your writing.

Maikadilwen and StarCupCake: I think keeping a dream journal is a powerful way to gain inspiration and ideas for fantasy. I have done a little bit of it and intend to do more. Actually, when I write stuff for the first time it approaches the feel of dreaming.
StarCupCake:
A world upon a lost time, remembered in that strange and beautiful place between sleep and wake. Those in the Blue, indeed, live only on the border of a terrible dream; few have the courage to pass, yet all hope to awake with only the memory of fear in them.
I like that! You are a writer. This description borders on the poetic.

I was totally surprised by the eucatastrophe (good climax) that I ended up writing for my story. I was stunned. I had no idea such a powerful thing would take place as did, but it virtually wrote itself. I simply cannot give it away, I'm sorry; it's just too much a part of me, I guess. When and if I get it published all that will change. My goal is to have the story completely presentable to a literary agent by the spring of 2004.

Rose Cotton: Please have patience. I intend to get to your first few chapters. I encourage you to make your plants and animals being your readers can connect to.

Little_My*: The Nordic mythos is my home. I am Frisian by heredity, so I can claim it by Germanic descent. The Greek stuff just seems too cut and dry for me.

Daegwenn: Some of your Mylryt material reminds me of Xanth and Dragonlance. I used to have the mood problem, too. Somewhere along the line that changed for me, probably when the story took on a life of its own and the plot turns drove my writing in certain
directions such that I was writing to find out what would happen instead of only to satisfy the inner need for beauty, magic, whatever...

Regarding Battles:
I too found the battles to be some of the hardest stuff to write. How does one handle all the vastness of action? I'm told that I succeeded in my one big battle scene. The only thing I can tell you is that I described enough of the terrain to nail the thing down in the reader's mind, then had handy divisions of armies symbolized by their leaders, and concentrated on the key vignettes. I'm not sure that helps at all. I would suggest re-reading The Battle of Five Armies in the Hobbit, Helm's Deep in the Two Towers, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields in RotK, and even the Scouring of the Shire. Hmmm, it might be interesting to start a new thread to analyze, evaluate, and all that, with Tolkien's battles, to see why they succeed. Any takers?

Manelwen: your story idea is intriguing! As to starting, I refer you to the literary agent's advice above. For ending, I can't really answer that because I haven't come near the end of my long saga yet. yippee!

Starbreeze: regarding the ideas coming too fast: all I can suggest is make a note on a separate paper to key the idea for later writing, and continue with your current thought. One published author at the festival I attended said that she never writes from start to finish; she writes whatever scenes come to her and figures out where they belong in the story in the rewrite. So whatever works for ya!

Regarding the sexual thing, I have removed all graphic stuff from my story. It used to be there but I found it was calling attention to itself and distracting from the plot, even when it was a logic extension of the plot. I'm writing for the young adult (and older and younger) market, so I could go into the graphic stuff but don't find it necessary. It's the deeper emotions that matter to me and, I hope, my reader.

I'm inspired by dreams, by different places I've been (something as simple as a deer track cutting straight across the path in the woods).

As for how long I write before I feel it is finished without spoiling it, I am finding that the more I rewrite, the better the story gets, especially in the context of a writer's group. My last rewrite, which I will begin in about 3 months, will be a much more concise story that gets at what's really interesting as far as plot and character development, and a whole lot of fat will get cut out. No matter how much I once was in love with particular scenes. If they don't move the story forward, good riddance.

On illustrating, I have been informed that illustrating (especially for a first novel) is the prerogative of the publisher, not the author. Bummer, but there it is.

Okay, I've responded to everything that struck me as respondable on page 1. Enough for now. Happy Writing!

[Maikadilwen]

One published author at the festival I attended said that she never writes from start to finish; she writes whatever scenes come to her
So do I. Which is one of the reasons why I keep my story away from others at the moment, since I'm pretty sure no one would have the faintest clue that all these different things, is actually one story. I know the story, I know the inportant things that will happen. Those are the things I write first and what then comes in between, is coming all by itself, when I'm reading through my work. Some think it's a very confusing way to write, since I may write 7 pages of what could be chapter 12, then 6 pages of chap. 3 then on to chap. 8 and so on. It works for me, and I don't end up getting stuck with an unused idea, because I write it down when it comes and save it as different files to put together later on.

The way my dreams come in, is that sometimes I dream entire scenes from the story. I really see it all happening so all I have to do is start writing. A good thing here is a dictaphone(sp?). It's a lot easier (and quicker) to speak all the things you've got on your mind, than to write it all down, even in short note form. And it's easy to carry where ever you go. Paper and pen is not. Then it's easy to start writing when you have the time for it.
Because I'm dreaming some of it, I also have very special feelings towards my characters, because I've seen them. Which is also why I would never have any illustrations. I cared deeply about the characters before, and I knew them, but to see them stand before me, that's just amazing.

As for how long I write before I feel it is finished
Oh, that's the difficult part. I'm one of those who are never really satisfied and keep changing everything (did anybody say Douglas Adams? smilies/rolleyes.gif ) But I try not to overdo it.

Battles.... I've seen one of my larger battles in dreams. Actually I was in the middle of it and that experience was amazing. But how do I describe it so the reader will see what I saw? I still haven't figured that out. I've written some of it, but it's still not enough. Sometimes I really wish that I could draw or paint, because it would be much easier to describe it, if I could look at it. Maybe that "battle thread" would be a good idea.

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Stupid work, taking away from my barrowdowns time! I'm having trouble catching up and now I have to get to bed soon!
Okay, I found more questions, so I'll answer them!

How do you guys feel about including a *hmhm* sexual *hmhm* relationship in your story?

I generally don't like it, unless it is under the romance section and is just using a fantasy backdrop as its setting. But otherwise, no. I feel it (dare I say it) dirties the work.

Next, how do you keep track of names etc. and phrases you like, that pop into your head?

Very easily. I always have a pen and paper nearby, and I'm always writing down conversations that my characters have. Names are a bit harder, as I've mentioned before, but only with those two chars. (Eflil and Elfal). Otherwise they're quite easy! These are the names of the main characters in my story: (no touchy unless you thought of the same one too!) Aven Arheli, Deomer Durae(yes..I cheated with that one...so sue me), Aowae of the house of Shaorn, Gahren Grendlli, Cahil, Malithil, Elfal, Eflil, Ericei, Ilianirerieleman (that actually means something in my language), Sirey and many more.

Next, what inspires you? Is it everyday things, or something you read, or dreams? Or a mixture?

Mixture, definately. I've fallen asleep in Math class and woken up with divine inspiration! One time I had NO paper available so I started to write on my graphic calculator (which I am quite proficient at!) Dreams mainly though. Or I would recall something from one of my many made up worlds from my childhood and somehow incorporate it into my new world. If it's anything I read it must be Tolkien, but it's more of his style of writing that influences me. I also read many fantasy romance with faeries and magic, wizards etc. and the language used in dialogue is quite useful.

How do you feel about other people reading your work?

Hmm...well, as I've posted it online (ffnet) I must be alright with it. (It's not actually fanfiction, it's under the original category). But no one that I PERSONALLY know will I give my pen name to. *shrugs* It's gotten good reviews so far, so I'm fine with it.

Next, how long do you write for before you feel that it is finished and you can't do anymore without spoiling it?

Depends. Writing a good chapter for me can take anywhere from one day to two weeks. Writer's block DOES not help.

Do you illustrate your work or leave it to the reader's imagination? And do you want to design your own front cover or have someone else do it?

I am a good artist, but I'm not great. I can't portray my own characters the way I want to, so I've enlisted the help of a wonderful artiste friend of mine. She's drawing my characters anime style (my fave!). Actually, it's interesting to see how others portray my characters, so I would most definately let others illustrate the cover.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Creating a language is like learning one. The grammar comes first, for it controls not just the word order but the elements that form words.

Yeah, way back on the first page there! But I love making up languages! This is from the prologue of my story:

Iu'mae liani y'er
Cel da'cir viel da'tui el'anen
Iu'da'anen siu ce agrane ti'da'ceii
Dua'mae ce viar ti'da'merey el'da'maeir.

Iu'Reis da'anen ter iran
Dianen ti'diare da'mae
Mae dua'anen, oliran dua'nasur
Oir iu'da'gher iran ti Reis
Viel da'mae ce aper ulonin
Ti'draleon da'anen' diare da'mae
Da'anen ce agrane ulonin,
Dua oir ce viar' ti'da'uloria el'Reis
Viel lliu ulanini, Reis' siu viar.

In darkness there is nothing
But the hope for the bringer of light
In the light we will rise to the stars
And darkness will fall to the depths of the night.

In Reis the light was given
Power to fight the darkness
Darkness and light, Good and evil
All in the gift given to Reis
For the darkness will come again
To release the light, fight the darkness
The light will rise again
And all will fall to the glory of Reis
For your grace, Reis, we fall.

[Rose Cotton]

I was reading some tips to writing fantacy. It was funny because she said that whatever you do you should try NOT to be another Tolkien because everyone is sick of it. smilies/biggrin.gif

But she also said that dragons are out. smilies/frown.gif

Do you guys think dragons are over used?

Do you think everyone's tired of dragons? smilies/frown.gif

[Maikadilwen]

I'm using dragons if it fits into the story. The one I'm currently working on has dragons in it, because they are one of the main reasons to one of the conflicts, so I couldn't really leave them out. Though I've put it in a time, where there a only very few dragons left in the world. Or are there...? smilies/wink.gif

[Starbreeze]

Oh I love this thread!
Thank you everyone for answering my questions, sorry I asked so much but I am quite excitable when it comes to meeting people who share intrests.
King Carlton, I already have the Age of Empires game, not that I'm any good at it, the other civilistations are too quick to make armies! But I will follow your advice and see if I can learn from it. I will also try and find Age of Mythology, it sounds good!
Oh dear Maika, our stories sound kinda the same! *gulps*
I don't think dragons are boring or over used or anything, I tend to think that not enough dragons feature in fantasy these days.

[Starbreeze]

It is interesting to see how many of the answers were similar to my own. Regarding the writing of a language, I think it is fine if it is as KC said, and Thinhyandoiel, I think that is beautiful! I think it is fine to have a created language as poetry, or a prologue etc. or anything that is not essential to understand to add to the story, that way, the more committed readers who are really interested will be the ones to try and figure it out. That way it will enhance their enjoyment of the story and make a little fun along the way. As with Lord of the Rings etc. there is a difference between reading the books and reading the books then reading the Unfinished tales and the History of Middle Earth.

[littlemanpoet]

Friends, I'm astounded how this topic has taken off! I admit it, I've fantasized about starting a thread that people enjoy. smilies/biggrin.gif

Starbreeze:

To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.
I like that a lot.

dragongirlG: Thanks for the website link.

KingCarlton: Thanks for the reference to 'Age of Empires'. I've seen it on the shelves in the local hobby shop and would buy it but my wife would have a REAL BIG problem with that. smilies/frown.gif Next monetary birthday/Christmas gift I get, who knows?....

I find nothing offensive whatsoever in your posts, KC. They are stated clearly, forthrightly, as your own thoughts, not forced on anyone.

Rose Cotton: Regarding everyone being sick of Tolkien, I think it's because most of what's published tries to be like Tolkien and fails miserably, or the publisher claims the tie-in and readers see that it's a bunch of baloney. Check out the "Valid Criticisms" thread for more on this.
But she also said that dragons are out. Do you guys think dragons are over used?

I think one must be careful about dragons because they can be over used. I have two in my story, but they are way more powerful than anything in Tolkien's works. Also they function differently in my story, as virtually the rulers over entire peoples and armies. I made them that way partly because I intuited that dragons are indeed getting to be a dime a dozen; plus, it just works better for my story.

Happy writing!

[Maikadilwen]

Oh dear Maika, our stories sound kinda the same! *gulps*
Trust me. They're not. If they are, it would be the most freaky thing of all freaky things I've ever experienced. But from what I've heard about your story so far, they're very different. But then maybe you can tell me how it ends, because I haven't got a clue. I'll probably end up with a "Well I'm back" kind of ending. smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[dragongirlG]

Regarding language...I don't know if anyone cares, but I am personally using a little parody of the English language for my story. The language is made up entirely of contractions (when possible.) There is no "The book belonging to Sarah" it's always "Sarah's book." Just thought you'd like to know...sorry if this was a pointless post. I just love it when I find other writers online, though.

Thinhyandoiel, what's your pen name on FFN?

I too would probably never give my pen name to anyone I know...yet. I don't think my writing is that good yet, and when I show people I know what I wrote, I feel terribly embarrassed sometimes. I think it's because that writing really reveals what I think sometimes, and I feel like this pleasantly secret part of me is getting disclosed. In time, however, I'll probably gain enough confidence to show my friends and family. The only person I've shown/read my works to is probably my sister and parents, and maybe one of my friends if she goes to my website.

I'm so happy that I've found so many authors here that I can share my love of writing with!

Speaking of...authors...I know money isn't the most important thing in the world or anything...but when I go to college I will probably have to choose between doing a math/science/computer degree or a literature/fine arts degree. I really don't know what I should choose because I want to support myself, but I want to enjoy my future job too. I'm good at both types of things, but what kind of job...and how much money...could I make with a job if I graduate from Yale? I don't know. My sister said to play to my strengths, yet I find that my strengths include both poles. I'm very ambivalent and if anyone has any type of advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

Probably what will happen is I will end up with a math/science/computer degree and have writing as a hobby. I love writing more but I need to support myself and have a steady job, etc, and I'm good at both sides. Argh...

Sorry for being too repetitious.

[Starbreeze]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I like that a lot.

Thanks, I forgot I put that there. Its rather like one of my story ideas, it popped into my head as I was updating my sig yesterday.

In my story (so far) dragons are dog sized flying worm shaped lizards (if that makes sense). They are not true dragons, which are much larger, as they left my world at the same time as the immortal people of the 'elves' (which aren't really elves). They are a bad omen and, though small, dangerous.

Sorry, Maika, but even I don't know how it ends yet. The story writes itself, it's like a film, you don't really know the end till you see it.

Dragon Girl - Speaking of...authors...I know money isn't the most important thing in the world or anything...but when I go to college I will probably have to choose between doing a math/science/computer degree or a literature/fine arts degree. I really don't know what I should choose because I want to support myself, but I want to enjoy my future job too. I'm good at both types of things, but what kind of job...and how much money...could I make with a job if I graduate from Yale? I don't know. My sister said to play to my strengths, yet I find that my strengths include both poles. I'm very ambivalent and if anyone has any type of advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

Probably what will happen is I will end up with a math/science/computer degree and have writing as a hobby. I love writing more but I need to support myself and have a steady job, etc, and I'm good at both sides. Argh...


Whew, tell me about it, I have the same problem! I have to decide between, money and what I like, it is one major set back about being reasonable at everything - the only thing I know I'm not taking is Tech! At least I'm not alone, but I can't help but feel that the pressure to be rich and the demands of materialism means that the world is missing out on many great artists and authors. *sighs*

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

[dragongirlG]

I understand, Starbreeze. I wish everyone could make money by what their interests and talents are, but need for money gets in the way! I'm not even close to being a college student yet, but my parents have been pressuring my sister about deciding what her major will be, and before I know it, I'll have to make that decision myself.

[StarCupcake]

Thank you littlemanpoet, what a lovely thing to say...you are a delightful one, aren't you? smilies/smile.gif

On this topic of dragons being "out" or whatever, I have a question for all you brilliant and imaginative minds: what kinds of wicked beasts and such appear through your story or stories?

I have:

Ursours. Small, with molten skin, several eyes (most blind) and claws where hands and feet should be. They thrive only on human flesh, and eat naught by it; yet they are so weak and bad at their hunt that they rarely or never taste it. Ursours live then in a state of continual feverish hunger, which causes them to be unsure of what they see, yet they rip and tear at all. To kill an Ursour is to have mercy, for of all beasts in the Blue they have the most accursed existence.

Morfans. Only few of them remain at Audrie and Alender's time, yet they are loath to kill. Towering, wicked fowl who roam night forests. They often lure good folk by beckoning them with a seemingly harmless fire in the middle of the darkness. Upon their cruel heads, sharp-beaked, and on their tails they bear plain, ever-burning flames. To feed these embers is to revive a dreadful Morfan.

Wrents. Shadow creatures that go unharmed by fire or weapon; only sunlight can drive them away, although they never disappear. They travel quickly, by the sound of their terrible, wailing voice. Yet their screams at least give warning to what danger lurks near.

There are others, too.

This thread is actually fascinating. I thought I was the only one writing serious fantasy, although I can't believe I did now.

[Thinhyandoiel]

dragongirlG:
I think it's because that writing really reveals what I think sometimes, and I feel like this pleasantly secret part of me is getting disclosed.

That is how I feel when friends ask to read my work!! The fear of criticism, especially from them, is always present. When I write, every detail of the story is personal. It's as if they are seeing some untold memory of mine, one that I would like to remain personal. That's why they are never given my pen name, but online I shall give it freely! (I've sent it to you by the way. I just noticed yours is in your sig, so if I have time expect a review from me!)

KingCarlton: I do not know if your comments are directed at me, and if so no offence is taken I assure you. Your words are true though, movies (or in this case, books) are no fun with subtitles...for some. There are some who so enjoy the art of language that an unknown word, sentence or conversation in another language is amazing, especially if it is of one you do not know. Pet pastime? Yes, it is a hobby, but I do not feel that many of my worlds would be complete without some form of communication that seperates 'us' from 'them'. That is simply my opinion.

[Niphredil Baggins]

Dragons? My story has dragons, but they don't look like tyrannosaurus rex with wings, they don't have ranks of colour... my dragons may bear riders, but still they are of the race of Wyrm, and their riders drink blood.

S-E-X? None in my stories, for it would be against my principles. Not overmuch romance either, just enough to spice things up.

[littlemanpoet]

DragonGirlG: About money: I'm 42. I went liberal arts, history major, then education, and taught high school for almost three years, only to find out I wasn't cut out for the emotional drain of it (in my case). Then I got into factory work, and am now in shipping and receiving. I am going to go back to school for library science, for which I long ago tested a high level of ability and interest in. The reason I'm telling you all this is to say this: I've done okay without a lot of money, but I'm tired of just getting by; I'll double my base salary with a library science master's. So it's okay to make more money and still be a writer/artist on your own time. If you can become a paid artist, it usually means you're in advertising, or if you're discovered, you're in the movie business. Also, you will probably work for five to ten different companies by the time you retire. Just remember the bottom line: it's great to enjoy what you make a living at, but make sure you have time and energy to pursue your art. That said, it's far more important to enjoy life, period. That probably doesn't help, but take it for what it's worth.

Starbreeze: The basis for my story is that immortal beings entered Earth in ancient times and took human mates, and their offspring were heroes. In my other-world, called Aelde, the evil being are called Felloth. The gods and goddesses are called the Fellir and their offspring are called Fellspawn; they tend to take the shape their forebear prefers - serpents, wolves, spiders, boars, cats, you name it. The Fellspawn are those in whom the Fellir invest their might. Their offspring in whom they choose NOT to invest their might are called Gebilleh; none of these beings can be killed, but their bodies can be hacked to pieces; the Fellspawn have the might to re-body, but the Gebilleh make do as best they can, getting more atrocious looking with each 'hacking'. Another race in Aelde are the Cloudmariners, beings who ride the clouds like ships and bring rain where it's needed - except some have been corrupted and bring only storm wherever they go - they are called Fellmariners. The good immortals' names match the evil in everything but root - Glimmir, Glimhoth, Glimmariners, Glimspawn. There are no good Gebilleh. And then there are the two dragons, which are called Wyrms in Aelde, the Wrath Wyrm, and the Fury Wyrm. The Fury Wyrm has been imprisoned in a sword of power, called Archbane.

ACK I gotta get to work!

Happy writing!

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Well, I am writing a story, or series of these. "Aosama" is actually one of my characters I've created and imagined in my mythical world. It's very hard not to imitate other writers. But everything from my life, including everything I've read before, will somehow slide it's way onto the paper in a different form, and I'll be writing away, and reading what I've written, I ask myself: 'now how did that get there?' and keep on trucking. It's like my religion: I tried so very hard to keep everything in my story neutral. But, just like some of my characters are my relatives personified, it just leaked out until I stopped trying to hold it in. Maybe, when its published, people will congregate in forums like these to examine my work and my worlds and compare it to the Bible and to Tolkien. All I can say is Tolkien influenced my life and changed me. He changed how I write and how I think about my own writing. I'm not too embarrassed to read my stories out loud to others anymore. Stephen King, Gordon Korman, and Brian Jacques did the exact same thing. But I'm trying to keep all my characers all *mine*

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

OH, and just double-checking King Carlton's reply: the dragon story *has* been done before. Sort of. It's mentioned in "Her Majesty's Wizard" by Christopher Stasheff. But only briefly, and it could be done much more beautifully if we try to portray dragons differently than either Stasheff or Tolkien did. It'd be an interesting project, to say the least.

[Mister Underhill]

It's encouraging to see so many writers here on the Downs. Good topic, littlemanpoet!

Jumping back a few posts, lmp, I wanted to throw in that reading military history can provide lots of inspiration for battle sequences. I just recently read an article in a magazine called -- appropriately -- Military History about a key clash between Carthage and Rome. The article was chock full of ideas for drama -- on the Roman side, two generals with a personal hatred for one another, on the opposing side, two brothers, Hannibal and Hamilcar, both brilliant strategists; for Rome, citizen-soldiers, for Carthage, a force comprised of mixed mercenary troops. Besides simple strategy and tactics, the article gave information on how things like terrain, the experience of the commanders, intelligence and counter-intelligence, the timing of maneuvers, the composition of forces and other elements shaped the battle.

I also like your idea of starting a thread to analyze Tolkien's battle sequences as fiction.

Since you've clearly finished at least a draft or two of your own work, maybe you can answer a few of your own questions posed at the beginning of this thread for the illumination of your fellow Downers. What strategies have you employed in your attempt to reach your sixth level of seriousness?

[Starbreeze]

KC, have you read any of Anne McCaffery's books? All her books are purely about dragons, (bar a few which feature other things too) and she is a best seller.

[Thinhyandoiel]

KingCarlton: I can see that you are quite adamant about your views on the use of language in fiction. smilies/smile.gif I commend that, kudos to you! To your question: Yes it does 'hit me in the face' as I can make neither sense nor purpose of whatever it was you wrote. But it lacks the content that surrounds true language. The story surrounding it can give just as much mystery to it as can any other device that we use. You said that entire sequences make it (reading) cumbersome. Out of curiousity, because this has come to mind as I read that, is Galadriel's song Namarie cumbersome? Was it pointless and did it turn off the readers? This is just a question you don't have to answer. It is just for curiousity's sake.

[Gilthalion]

I wrote broadcast news reports for twenty years. I'm not sure if that counts as non-fiction!

Had a little time today to look somewhere on the forum other than in the RPGs. Some of you may want to play in the new Freestyle Room.

I've written a Tolkien Fan Fiction, and actually attempted to mimic Tolkien's style. It is published here at the Downs as THE HOBBITS. The link is in my signature.

If any of you are in need of a Tolkien fix, I'd sure appreciate it if you took a glance at the work. It is a novel-length fan fic, written on an EZBOARD that I set up. Each chapter was published as the first post of its own thread, and Tolkien experts (and other would be writers) helped proof it and checked it for "accuracy." I found that posting chapter drafts to a board was a great way for a lot of people to collaborate on a work.

Anyway, THE HOBBITS took about 18 months to write, with numerous interruptions from life. It will never be published, as I am reliably informed that the Tolkien Estates (wisely) will not permit that sort of thing.

Please read it! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!! Don't make me beg! (Oh. I just did.)

[Thalionyulma]

Hahaha, nice one Gilthalion. smilies/biggrin.gif

I have seriously pondered on writing a book and actually finishing it. My country has a rich folklore, both like and unlike ME. (Elves would probably be "engkantada" or perhaps "diwata" from where I come from. Really, no kidding. Some may now know where I hail from.)

I've wanted to write a story regarding the mythology of my culture. But I just couldn't get the proper settings, plus the time... I've started and re-started a zillion times.

Your posts are all a big help and encouraging (even if I wasn't the one who started the thread). Actually I've kept this interest of mine a secret, even from my family and close friends. Kinda scared I suppose that they'd think the idea stupid...

[Niphredil Baggins]

I've really started to miss a writer's forum, and what would it be, if not this discussion going on and on (and making progress) in emails? How about if we start a web-based one? I've been on a writers' mailing list once before, but we had not enough members. Would any of you here be interested? I think I'll go to Yahoo and start a list right NOW- join if you feel like it. Please email me if you're interested. heidi.laakso@uta.fi

[Niphredil Baggins]

Done! Here (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FaerieWordweavers/) is something I know I needed... I'll give the ownership gladly to anyone who wants it, i just wanted it done now, before this discussion dies or gets killed as off-topic *shudder*. So, let me introduce FaerieWordweavers (silly name, huh?), a mailing list for writers of serious fantasy, however you define that.

[Starbreeze]

I had not heard of this writer. Thanks for the tip.

No problem! smilies/biggrin.gif

Has anyone here tried writing non fiction?

Yes, I have, and I failed. I tried writing a long paper on genetics and Darwin's theory but found that my own feelings get in the way too much, which isn't a probelm in fictional writing, you can insert as much feeling as you can, and that's what makes it real. I also tried a short paper on genetic variations that lead to the resistance of diseases, e.g. AIDS, the Black Death...and so on, but it was really a bad time for me to write it, don't ask why, and it never got off the ground. As you can probably guess, science, genetics in particular are a strong point of mine, and they were going to be published if they ever got anywhere, but they didn't.

Actually I've kept this interest of mine a secret, even from my family and close friends. Kinda scared I suppose that they'd think the idea stupid...

Oh, I totally know the feeling. I told my parents once and they just laughed. It maybe because when I was seven or so I insisted in spending every waking moment writing (or trying to) poetry and horse stories. But this is different, for a start I'm much older, and they could give me more support. I never even tried to tell my other reletives! My friends are okay though, one of my best friends writes too, so we help each other (we are about the same way through our stories), and my other two best friends enjoy reading what we write and giving us constructive criticism, not that they do that much, mostly its 'oh, that bit was good, tell me when the next bit is done'. My other friends give me ideas, like names and models of behavior for some of the characters.

I've really started to miss a writer's forum, and what would it be, if not this discussion going on and on (and making progress) in emails? How about if we start a web-based one? I've been on a writers' mailing list once before, but we had not enough members. Would any of you here be interested? I think I'll go to Yahoo and start a list right NOW- join if you feel like it. Please email me if you're interested. heidi.laakso@uta.fi

Daegwenn, had a similar idea I think. They do say that great minds think alike. smilies/biggrin.gif

[littlemanpoet]

KingCarlton: You would have been wise to try that first. Don't I know it! I asked the wise when I first considered it and they said jobs were scarce and libraries would die because of the internet. So I didn't. Of course, I'm to blame to because I actually had this dream that I would be published by age 40. Hah! Crushed dreams have a way of spurring new growth. Well, on to the future!

that story concept that you have mentioned…. “immortal beings entered Earth in ancient times and took human mates, and their offspring were heroes.”
well, I heard of it before on two occasions. Not stories as your's is but the concept. Yes, I'm aware the concept has been used more than once, but I take heart that my rendering of it is my own and different enough in scope and character from others.

Yes, I've tried nonfiction and will again. I have an idea for a book about depression based on my wife's and my experiences over 20 years of marriage, with my poetry on that subject interspersed where it belongs, and facts about depression where it also belongs. My writer's group is convinced that this will be a sure fire publishable thing, and I can see that.

Mister Underhill:

Since you've clearly finished at least a draft or two of your own work, maybe you can answer a few of your own questions posed at the beginning of this thread for the illumination of your fellow Downers. What strategies have you employed in your attempt to reach your sixth level of seriousness? Oops! smilies/eek.gif I guess I actually haven't answered my own question! Sorry about that. This answer is going to be disorganized and stream of consciousness because I actually haven't given it a whole lot of organized thought: first, I have had the astoundingly good fortune to have managed all the Jungian balances referenced in the Tolkien and Psychology thread. I thought that was a good article. That in itself, of course, does not ensure anything. Second, my story starts in current time but has means of getting to Faerie. I employ mythic tales, that bear upon the situation of the plot, which immerse the reader in the depths of the past. I engage the reader in the struggle between good and evil, life and death, and there is loss, things that have been and never will be again that are mourned. There is a powerful evil that there seems to be little hope of defeating (that is most closest imitation of Tolkien). Well, I could go on and on and I think I will not sufficiently earmark the 6th level. Frankly, I don't think I'm there yet.

How have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien? Not well at first. It took many drafts to excise imitativeness from my written voice. But my tale has enough of a feel of the Celtic Sidhe and a spicing of the Arthurian legendarium, along with the Nordic elements, and based in Genesis 6, has a completely different (and I hope no less thoroughly realized) take on the deeps of the past and the immortals than does Tolkien.

How long have you been working on your story, and why? I have been working on my story since 1986. Why? I needed to grow so that my story could. The Faerie part of it did not even exist until 1990. The centrality of the swords of power did not get thoroughly fleshed out until this year. It needed to grow.

What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not? Trying for too archaic a voice. Having a protagonist with so many weaknesses that my sympathetic readers wanted to shake him. smilies/biggrin.gif "Please make him more noble," one of the begged plaintively. Leaving some obvious questions unanswered because I hadn't even thought of them and needed readers to ask them; such as, "If she's so smart, why on earth would she want to have such a dangerous sword in her bedroom?" And that question led to a whole new plot twist that I am forever indebted to my sympathetic reader for, because it gave an energy to the plot that simply had not been there before. As you can tell, I'm sold, ABSOLUTELY SOLD, PEOPLE, smilies/biggrin.gif on the value of a writer's group. Find one! You will not regret it.

Why I started this thread:

It's really nice that this has turned into a serious fantasy writers' support group; I enjoy that aspect of it.

However: I started this thread because of some things that came up in the Valid Criticisms thread. To quickly summarize, Kalessin felt that the fantasy genre is bedeviled by mandaneity, and wondered if there is any hope for the genre. The following questions were asked: what should a writer do to induce a fresh act of sub-creation? Read Tolkien's sources but try to forget Tolkien and everything after? Avoid the medieval era? Learn fresh narrative techniques by reading books outside of the fantasy genre that also describe a world as well as tell a story? These questions spurred me to start this thread. My initial answers to those questions were: I have been working on my own fantasy story for fifteen years, and have had to face the questions you delineate. I have avoided nothing that is part of the fantasy archetype set; I think - hope - that my story is worthy to stand on its own merits for a number of different reasons. Further, it was pointed out that the fantasy genre these days has come to be defined mostly as “swords-and-sorcery”, which is to say, imitative and basically humdrum. So I wanted to know if anybody else on the Downs was writing serious fantasy, and if you were avoiding the pitfalls.

A challenge: Please refer to my six levels of seriousness and consider your own work, and respond as to what level you think your writing is at, and why. Now, please understand that level one should be considered serious, too. Emotional well-being is no laughing matter (though maybe a little more laughter is precisely what's needed). I eagerly await your responses, friends.

Happy writing!

By the way, I'm going to check out that website you just set up, Niphredil.

[Nar]

Great topic! I'm enjoying reading about all your stories! I started out in fantasy short stories, got a great deal of pleasure from them, and ran into endless trouble with creative writing teachers. I concentrated on realistic short stories, for a while, which pleased them, but drove me into the ground, because I didn't know how to control the detail. It was good training, though, because when I went back to trying more imaginative work, I was a better writer.

My stories take surreal turns, sometimes in sub-stories. So, a man with continual humming in his ears from 20 years as a colorado coal miner hears phones ringing wherever he goes, but when he answers, the humming in his ears increases so that he can't hear what's on the line. I'm still waiting to find out if that is a ghost story (he's desperate for some sign from his daughter who has died), a western (is his newfangled hearing aid picking up some cell phone transmission?), or a medical degeneration (a brain tumor could be inducing auditory hallucinations). I'm afraid the answer will depress me, but I have to let him find out. I have a little old lady in a nursing home trying to keep her personality alive by telling a story to her attendants-- each one leaves when their task is done, decapitating each segment of her story, and as she becomes more and more frantic to complete her tale, the story becomes increasingly wild. There's nothing magic in it so far, but I see it as fantasy.

I try not to worry too much about things like influence; I have enough anxiety about showing my stuff to people as it is! I've written a shipwreck story, a Shakespeare story, and I'm writing a sort of lexical fantasy based on Tolkien and starring a word. I have created a mythology of mis-spelling! I am in a writer's group, and that helps a lot. They are very supportive, and I find reviewing others' work very stimulating. I like inventing things for other people; I take a lovely holiday into ego-free creation.

I feel like I'm finally becoming a fantasy writer, but I seem to need to ground it in realism-- I don't know why. Maybe that's my way of trying to induce a 'fresh act of sub-creation.' Put one sentence after another, always trying to turn towards the live part of the story.

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Niphredil Baggins]

A challenge: Please refer to my six levels of seriousness and consider your own work, and respond as to what level you think your writing is at, and why.

Well, I've never been very humble about my work. Secretive, yes, but not ashamed. I know I write well, and the structure of the story is believable as sub-creation. So I've reached level #5, but #6 is not something I can judge for myself.

[Nar]

Your sister-in-law? I hope you had her permission to post it. I like the two '...tomorrow' lines. I like the effect of repetition with variation in poetry. It is sometimes very trance-inducing. Spenser's Epithalamion (a wedding poem) would be an example. Every verse ends with a variation on 'The woods shall to me answer and my Eccho ring.' Based on your generally unsentimental posts, you would probably like the 19th verse, which dealt with the midnight hour and provided a peppery corrective to all the dreamy romantic stuff beforehand. It includes the immortal lines, 'Ne let th'unpleasant Choir of Frogs still croking/ Make us to wish theyr choking.' You might well hate the rest, but who knows?

I have no idea if this poem is derivative. My reading in poetry is more antique than modern. I like the form, the four short verses ending in an expanded conclusion. I like the sensation of dark and starry sky in the first two verses. It sounds like it should have a tune to it, which I like in a poem. I'd prefer a bit more development of the ideas. Perhaps he shouldn't be referred to as a king in the first two verses, then claiming the kingship in the last verse will have more impact. Question: is he to be the king of dreams or the king of stars? I would like more development of the idea in the 3rd and 4th verses-- moving beyond the kingdom of dreams in the stars. Why is it there? Because people dream at night while looking up with closed eyes? I would like more specific information about the battle referred to in the last verse. This would make a good power ballad. I hear howling guitars under that last verse.

Thanks for the encouragement about my writing. What's your opinion about mixing genres?

[Gilthalion]

King Carlton:

Factual Reports can hardly be regarded as non- fiction as the field requires reporting no doubt, yet also theory, analysis and explanation.

That was a joke! News reports, fiction or non-fiction, get it? Get it? smilies/biggrin.gif


I did give your writing a quick read a while back, I think you need a bit more work done. The Tolkien’s style of writing as you put it, is …yawn inducing. Consider writing to the theme of this millennium?

Ahem. My whole POINT was to write it like Tolkien! Sheesh! smilies/rolleyes.gif And what IS the theme of this millennium? (At a guess, I'd say malthusian apocalypse and improper punctuation of biblical proportions.)


Far I am from being your critic, but since you had requested.

I never requested criticism! What do I look like, a writer or a masochist? (Nevermind!)

I what I wanted was readers who actually like Tolkien and wanted more of the same! (Watery weak though it may seem...) If there is a genuine outpouring of congratulation, adulation, glory, and praise, then that's something else entirely! If I wanted critics and heartbreak (just kidding), I'd have posted my driver's license photo. (Don't make me do it!)


The old hobbit creakily got down on his aching knees (rain was coming soon, you see), grasped his hands together and plaintively cried, "PLEASE READ THE STORY! PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!"

Readers who want a good Tolkien fix, a golden goodie blast from the millennium past, check out THE HOBBITS. The link is in my signature.

There is a 21st century difference to the tale, and that is that the story mainly follows a couple of young female hobbits, but there is plenty of action, old friends, romance, etc.

Here's what the readers have had to say! (and I haven't collected all the email response yet)

Joy: "I read this the other night. Actually, all 28 chapters in ONE night! Excellent job!"

Onewhitetree/Kate: "It's absolutely enchanting, Gil! I think you did a beautiful job of keeping the feel of the story authentic, and the characters are great! Wonderful job!"

Lady Arwen: "When I first read your story, The Hobbits, I absolutely loved it! It was told not in the 'yeah, that lil hobbit, well he up 'n wen' off ter Mount Doom' type of story (That makes a good mickeytake, but it doesn't sound too realistic when you're writing a real story) And so, since that fateful day when i clicked on the banner and was transported back to Middle Earth, I've been a faithful follower of The Hobbits (I actually woke up at 4am and read it in one go) and I'm so, so glad to hear that it's finished!!!! *dances little jig*"

Lillian C: "I just finished it, Gilthalion! It's a wonderful story! I was impressed with all the action sequences....You should be very proud of your accomplishment!"

Mithadan: "Very in-character throughout, very Hobbitish! It captures the character of Tolkien's writings very well. The story also flows extremely well and keeps the reader's attention. Well done!"

Dwarin Thunderhammer: "Simply great Gil, I'm sure tolkien would have loved it."

Gilthalion: "Never again!"

King Carlton: "Good!" smilies/wink.gif

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Gilthalion ]

[Aralaithiel]

If any of you would like advice on horses, I will gladly offer my assistance. I have been riding horses for most of my life, and just bought a Paint mare. I ride both English & Western, and occasionally sidesaddle (boy that's a trip! smilies/biggrin.gif ). I can get references for you, or whatever you need. I love to talk horse (when I'm not speaking in Quenya!)!! smilies/biggrin.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Three pages. Huh. Cool. (sorry I'm listening to October Project - puts me in a certain frame of mind... smilies/cool.gif )

KingCarlton: You confound "fiction" and "fantasy". Granted I'm being prescriptive be bringing in the dictionary, but: fiction: something invented by the imagination or feigned; fictitious literature; the action of feigning or of creating with the imagination.
Fantasy: the free play of creative imagination; a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived as a fanciful design or invention or a chimerical or fantastic notion; imaginative fiction featuring especially strange settings and grotesque characters - called also fantasy fiction.

So fantasy is a subcategory of fiction.

You tend toward a reductionistic approach to just about everything you discuss. Fair enough, but I think you wind up missing out on a lot, my friend.

I could not disagree with you more regarding level six. Reading Tolkien set my way of perceiving the world on a different course than it would otherwise have taken.

Ack! I gotta run! Writer's group.

[littlemanpoet]

Oh heck. One more thing. I've posted chapter one of my story on FWW. Check it out if you like.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

littlemanpoet:

In regards to your earlier question about the levels of fiction. I would rate mine about a 3-4. I know for a fact that my characters are loved (And if any of my readers knew what I have planned for Aven and Sirey I would be the object of a massive head hunt...er...overexaggeration, but you get it) But I am also trying to portray a few themes across to them, whether they recognize or acknowledge them or not is up to them, but they're there if they want them.

Tolkien would definately reign in with level 6, and that is an amazing feat indeed! To live up to that kind of calibre doesn't seem to be hard for him and a few gifted others. smilies/smile.gif

KingCarlton: I disagree with what you said about Tolkien, but that is understandable as all opinions can not be expected to be identical. I found it quite engrossing, indeed the folklore, languages and history of Middle-Earth is the main reason why I could not put those books down as I read them. The lives of Hobbits contrasting with those of Elves, Dwarves and Men was quite intriguing. To me that is. Everytime a new story, that of Nimrodel or that of Luthien and Beren, came up I enjoyed every word. I guess that is why I am finding it hard to understand your points of view. We seem quite different from one another.

[Mr. Frodo]

I'm working on something now, for the last 2 years actually, but it has completely changed in plot since I started and it doesn't even have a name yet. Because of all the changes, I'm only about 3 chapters into it, and it really bothered me until I learned how long Tolkien worked on LOTR. My story is pretty different from Tolkien's because I had only read The Hobbit when I began writing. I sometimes worry that it sounds too much like a teenage girl speaking when I write from the guys' point of view (don't let the name fool you, it's just a joke with friends. We are Pippin, Merry, Sam and Frodo) I have started to create languages, cultures and an entire world. I have maps to scale, a small dictionary for the languages, some songs and am a history for it. (I need a social life...)

[Nar]

littlemanpoet: For fear that I may enter in your strife
you shrink away and shroud yourself from life.
Love those lines! Liftoff!

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[NyteSky]

I was incredibly relieved to find how long it took Tolkien to write his books. I've been working on mine for a little over a year now and there's no end in sight.
The temptation to imitate Tolkien, who is undoubtably the master, is very strong sometimes. I'm afraid I did borrow quite a bit from him for certain types of my elves, but other than that managed to resist.
I highly recommend David Eddings as an author. He's my favorite and I'm afraid I borrowed a little of his sorcerors as well.
I'm amazed how many seem to have written/ are writing here. Very impressive.

[Mister Underhill]

lmp: What is FaerieWorldweavers? It's probably none of my business, but I would urge you not to publish/post anything online that you hope to publish in book form one day, for a variety of reasons. My two cents.

[Starbreeze]

That has always been my reservation too Mister Underhill.

[Thalionyulma]

I believe the whole point for a writers' forum is to "brain-storm". I do recall Tolkien having those same reservations though. But I believe without "The Inklings", many of his ideas for his stories would never have been made.

I feel like a baby still learning to walk here. Thank you for the encouragement KC. (i'll be sending my story soon to BD, its almost finished, hope its good enough to get posted smilies/biggrin.gif )

Gilthalion, your RPG and FanFic was the one that actually got me to pick up my pen again and turn my imagination back on. I had forgotten that magic Tolkien had offered... smilies/smile.gif

I'm joining FaerieWordWeaver... smilies/smile.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Mister Underhill: I can appreciate your reservations. I wouldn't mind FaerieWordweavers remaining somewhat unknown, but all one really needs to do is post a "copyright" along with any such posting on line. Which I should have done. Oops. smilies/eek.gif

Thinhyandoiel: Thanks for your response on the levels of seriousness. I am in accord with you regarding Tolkien. I liked also what you said about your willingness as a writer to put important characters through some pretty horrendous experiences. Any writer worth her/his salt must do that or not have as powerful a story as could be. I think there may be a "level of seriousness" thing in that.

Mr. Frodo: Welcome to the thread. And I love the name. It reminds me of Sam's special bond with Frodo. The best way to be sure your characters sound like something other than what you may fear is to read a lot.

Nar: Thanks for the "liftoff". smilies/smile.gif

NyteSky: I have read David Eddings. It's good, and I would give it a 3 or 4 on the seriousness, but no higher. Eddings comes from a history and political science background, if I remember correctly, and his humor helps his stories go a long way. It's an ironic humor that is foreign to Tolkien's sense of Faerie. Enjoyable, but about shoulder high to Tolkien if that. Sorry for seeming to trounce over something that's special to you.

FaerieWordweavers (no 'l' in Word) is the site Niphredil Baggins mentioned on this thread. Go to her post and click on the link she provided.

Happy writing!

[littlemanpoet]

Well, KC, upon my suggestion that you're missing something by holding yourself back from the a full appreciation of fiction, such as Tokien, and you return the favor by suggesting that I am deluding myself as to why I really perceive the world the way I do. I guess that makes us even. smilies/wink.gif

By now I'm well aware of your chosen stance as an outsider, and will not question your motivations, since, like the rest of us, you want to have fun and have chosen this way of having it. I have no problem with a worthy opponent in a forum, so you may pat your dander back down.

By the way, was it I who suggested that you were afraid of something? I may have pondered that, but I don't think I posted it...

Iron sharpens iron, goes the saying.

Mister Underhill:
Niphredil Baggins suggested that this thread might fall prey to being stopped due to its supposed tendency to vere away from Tolkien and so forth. Please be so kind as to inform whether you think this is so, or how close it is coming to that.

[Mister Underhill]

Well, thanks for asking, littlemanpoet. I do think that this topic is starting to degenerate and needs to steer back towards Tolkien or face an untimely demise.

Discussion of the challenges of writing fantasy fiction in the shadow of Tolkien, the conventions of the genre, analysis of successful and unsuccessful techniques used by Tolkien and other fantasy authors (including yourself), strategies for overcoming or avoiding problems like Tolkien-imitation, the mythic/historical influences of the genre or other sources of inspiration, and so on are all still fair game. The moderators are usually far more lenient with a thread that wanders off-topic if the discussion is carried out in the spirit of friendly, respectful debate.

Things that are likely to get this and other threads closed: antagonism, flaming, insults, and rude and disrespectful conversation. It’s always a danger sign when people start addressing their comments to one another rather than the topics under discussion. Since this is a Tolkien board, let’s keep it in the neighborhood of Tolkien.

[Nar]

All right, back to the topic, then. I'll try to tackle those 6 levels, littlemanpoet.

'1. Serious as personal escape from the mundane stuff we face each day.'
I do have greater ambitions for my stories than just 1, but I hope they work at this level. When I broke through writer's block (induced by too much editing early in the creation process), I made myself write pure fun stuff, without any boring connecting bits, just to get the joy of writing back. That can be a useful stage. It's important not to let commercial ambition, artistic ambition, or your own developing maturity as a writer block the sheer bliss of creation.

I think writing that is intended to be purely commercial begins here, although it may transcend itself. I think, however,that
even purely market-driven creations have to reach level 2, or they will not be successful. They may look good, and gain initial business, but they will not gain word-of-mouth or repeat business. If distribution is wide enough, that may not matter: the one-week bestseller, or the two-week movie. I remember reading a horribly incompetent book by an author with a fascinating profession. It was clearly published on the 'high concept' but the author was not prepared to write a novel.

'2. Serious as self-expression, which is the beginnings of art.'
Your distinction between 2 and 3 is interesting; I'm not sure I understand it. Does 'self-expression' mean trying to tell a story that reflects the writer, and opposed to just seeking pleasant sensations? The rewards of the story at level 2 are organized by the nature, interests and worldview of the writer? At this point the writer is beginning to take the act of writing seriously? Yes, I certainly think I write at this level. I think anyone who feels there is a risk to showing their work is at or beyond level 2, because what is the risk unless the work reflects oneself? Therefore, that sort of anxiety is probably a good sign. That's comforting --I think!

'3. Serious as communication of personal loves and desires, which is one step above #2 because I the writer am not merely blurting, but trying to connect to my reader. '

Ok, you begin this category with the nature of the writer, but to me the important idea is contained in the last word: reader.

Writing is in essence talking stretched across a page, and to me, a clear and vivid mental model of the reader on the other side of the communication is essential. This is why a writers' group or at least one friendly reader or listener is so useful in helping pull the best out of a piece. It is not just the comfort of knowing someone is willing to read it, but the imprint of one or more readers in the writer's mind, which refines the writer's voice and stimulates all the layers of the writer's mind and personality.

I think the grounding of Tolkien's work in stories told to his children and written work read to his friends is an essential
ingredient in the strengths of the work. In part, I think the rigorous composition of competing and cooperating themes, characters, plot elements and archetypes which I have discussed in the 'are there any valid criticisms' thread was stimulated by Tolkien's strong feelings about his initial audience.

For example, the section of The Lord of the Ring that, for me, raises themes of loss, despair, endurence, redemption and death, the journey of Frodo and Sam through Mordor, was written during WWII and sent in installments to Tolkien's son Christopher, who was in the RAF and stationed in South Africa. Having a son in service during a war must have triggered powerful fears. A phrase from a later letter retrospectively describes this, although the danger was past by then, Letters, # 105,
'I hope earnestly that [the news] is good, though one is still hesitant to ask news of sons.'
I can't help but feel that natural worries about his son may have influenced Tolkien's writing of Sam's grief over Frodo; and that the spiritual concerns that are raise by a mortal threat to a child helped induce the strong themes of grief and transcendence that I find in these sections. I certainly find fears about my future and current griefs bleeding into my stories.

This is good-- it's giving me ideas about my current story! Thank you. Sorry I never got to 4-6, more later, I hope.

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[littlemanpoet]

Mister Underhill: Thank you for supplying the useful guidelines.

KC: Cheers to all you said in your last post. smilies/smile.gif

Nar: You have accurately interpreted the distinctions I intended between the levels of seriousness. You have succeeded in fleshing them out better than I, as well. Yes, the reader is the key aspect of #3 versus #2. I'm a struck that my levels seem to correspond reasonably well to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That had not been intended, but there it is - after a fashion.

[Starbreeze]

Oh boy, have I been away for too long (too long being one day of not being on). Well, I've been doing some research today and I have a lot to tell and ask you guys, and...oh no, I've got to go! Honestly, spend two days updating a website and you don't have time to do anything else. But I will be back soon to finish off what I was going to say.

[littlemanpoet]

This is a little touchy because everybody who posted on the "Are You Writing Serious Fantasy" (aywsf) thread is a subject of this post. I have no intention of offending any of you. The one benefit is that you have the opportunity to respond to this analysis.

The "Valid Criticisms" discussion spurred me to start the aywsf thread. I was astounded that the topic garnered so many fervent responses. My original reason for starting the thread was to see if other serious fantasy writers (in this case all unpublished in book form) were running into the difficulties of Tolkien imitation and the pitfalls that go along with that, and how they were trying to overcome it, and how successful they thought they had been. I guess you could call it a more or less unscientific case study. The thread became a bit of a support group for fantasy writers' frustrations, which helped crystallize for me "six levels of seriousness" in writing fantasy.

Let me reiterate that I consider each level of seriousness to be, indeed, serious, and not at all worthy of contempt. I myself have passed from level one to the succeeding ones as I have gotten more serious about my own writing.

To recap:
1. personal satisfaction (ex.: emotional wellbeing) - akin to Tolkien's 'escape' from "On Faerie Stories"
2. self expression (personal aesthetic pleasure)
3. communication (an audience is part of the consideration)
4. good plot and character development
5. the inner consistency of reality
6. evolution of consciousness (this is a concept from Owen Barfield, a better description than what I gave on the other thread).

At the risk of oversimplifying, there are two types of evolution of consciousness. First, there is new awareness of distinctions where none were before comprehended (like someone indigenous to an equatorial region aware afar of snow, who then visits my home state of Michigan in February and becomes aware of snow, sleet, slush, and so on). Second, there is increased awareness of the "isness" of something that has been part of one's life for some time (one of the best examples for our purposes is how Tolkien's Ents have changed our awareness of Trees). This second type of evolution of consciousness is akin to Tolkien's 'recovery' from "On Faerie Stories". I think that Tolkien's 'consolation' and 'eucatastrophe' can span the levels.

I noticed in hindsight that these levels corresponded somewhat to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I brought up the six levels, interest in the thread moderated from its initial heated pace. I can think of two explanations for that: one, the newness of the thread was gone; two, the introduction of the six levels raised the discussion above the need-level of a support group; analysis was not their interest.

Some responses to the six levels were offered, and must be taken at face value. For the rest, reading through the posts allows for general categorization of various writers' efforts.

I have been writing long enough such that despite my meagre talents I have been able to hone my craft enough to even consider approaching level 6. Others have been writing for a few years, and have attained to higher levels due to their high level of talent. I am consistently impressed, for example, with Nar's perspicacity.

Conclusions:
1. Granted, I am discussing unpublished works that cannot be read in order to determine their artistic value or level of seriousness (which I'm hoping are synonymous terms).
2. Some writers, such as StarCupCake, show an aptitude toward beauty of expression that rivals and perhaps surpasses published works in certain ways, having to do with a Sense of Place. Her 'in the Blue' captures an essence of between-dream that is haunting in its beauty.

Her example brings up a tension that seems to me to be central to the issue of the genre: the publishing industry is looking for good plot and character development because the reader is understood to want to connect to a character and care about what happens to her/him. On the other hand, fantasy lovers are aware of a Sense Of Place that is equally important for good fantasy. Tolkien's Middle Earth is for me the primary example of this. This is part of the success of C.S. Lewis's Narnia Chronicles, despite their failure in other ways vis-a-vie Tolkien's ouvre. The problem is that many fiction lovers, such as at least two in my own writer's group, have little sympathy for this 'sense of place'. One of my sympathetic readers sees this sense of place as little more than the paraphernalia of run-of-the-mill fantasy that must be put up with. But to me it seems to be at the core of escape, recovery, and consolation.

3. There are other writers posting in the aywsf thread who revel in precisely the sword-and-sorcery fantasy that is bemoaned in the Valid Criticisms thread.

This points to the fact that there are at least two fantasy mountains, shall we say, down whose streams flow, feeding the main courses of the river of fantasy, and the mixture of the two seems to be inevitable, except that all artist-writers are free to dip their buckets into whatever part of the river and streams, at any place in the geography of story they please. So one may dip in a purely Nordic stream, or further down one may dip into a confluence of Celtic and Nordic myths. My own story shows a choice to dip into a variety of streams relatively high in the mountains and create my own confluence for my particular 'soup of story'. I think Kalessin's rant bemoans the tendency of most published works to dip their buckets down in the valley where the river is wide and the confluence is thoroughly mixed and the Sense of Place is more or less washed out by all the other elements of story.

[Starbreeze]

Wow, that was a lot to take in Poet. I'm not sure if I'm awake enough right now to understand it fully.
I did see though that you brought up your six levels thing. I have been putting in a lot of thought to my answer to that, and I still haven't managed to work out which category I think I fall into. I am either too lenient, or too hard on myself. I would like to think that my work has reached the standard of levels 4, 5 and 6, but I cannot be sure. In the same way I feel that my work has transgressed past levels 1 certainly, and almost certainly 2 and 3, so I don't know where that leaves me. Prehaps I am too occupied with exams to think clearly at the moment but I really don't know where to place myself. Upon requesting an answer from a friend (who is close enough to tell the truth about things) she told me that my work had almost certainly fallen into group 5, but I was not so sure.

~~edited by me because I am too tired to write properly~~

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

[Mister Underhill]

I was puttering around today and it occurred to me that part of Tolkien's genius was his ability to devise clean, simple, compelling McGuffins. In the case of both The Hobbit and LotR, the cause for the action is a physical thing: a Dragon and a Ring, respectively. And in both, what must be done with this thing is clear and unambiguous: it must be destroyed, or the heroes will suffer grave consequences.

All the action springs naturally in both stories from the effective use of this fundamental device.

Not any great insight, I suppose, but something that struck me as a useful lesson for would-be writers of fantasy fiction and worth sharing.

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Starbreeze]

I thought of this and I thought it applied to me, so I guessed it maight apply to some other people here. I thought it was really nice. I don't know where it came from or who said it but I like it.

"The best story is the one you can't write, you won't write. It's something that can only live in your heart, and not on paper."

I felt it kinda represented what most writers feel (correct me if I'm wrong) so I thought it was appropriate.

[Luntindomeiel]

Yes, I am writing serious fantasy, and I think that, after reading Tolkien, it's hard not to copy some of his ideas. I've made my best to sound 'original', but I always go back and put some Tolkien things... smilies/redface.gif

[Starbreeze]

Yes, not including Tolkienish things is almost impossible if you are writing that kind of fantasy (sword and sorcerer someone called it) as he used almost all the elements of good fantasy.

[Gilthalion]

Actually, I am at work on a story that strictly speaking must be called a fantasy, and not another Tolkien ripoff.

In THE HOBBITS, I intentionally immitated Tolkien. For sentimental reasons, as well as pride, I suppose, I don't really want to publish a work that is "just like Tolkien." In other words, not another sword & sorcery kind of tale. If I feel the need to scratch that itch again, I'll write another Middle-earth fan fiction.

I'd like to see published a fictional novel about the Millennial Kingdom, a matter of fable, legend, and some would say prophecy. This would be a fantasy, because of its supernatural elements and that different "sense of place" with which it must be imbued.

In scenario and vignette drafts of my "Millennial Fantasy," I find that I have exorcised the overt Tolkien style. But there is still much there that someone looking would be likely to see.

I used to think that I would write in a style like Asimov or Heinlein. Then it seemed to me that I could find no prose style more worthy of emulation (in my opinion) than Tolkien's. He himself wrote in several different styles, it seems to me.

There was the chattering, prattling, almost condescending storyteller found in much of THE HOBBIT (and in my own story). Toward the end of that tale, and throughout LORD OF THE RINGS, Tolkien wrote in a style of somewhat higher prose. In some places, like when the Riders of Rohan ode to the rescue of Minas Tirith, the writing resembled that of the old Northern European myths. Epic stuff.

Since my next effort (even if I do a time travel story first) will NOT be a traditional dragons and fairies kind of tale, I am worried less about suffering in comparison, should one be made.

It seems to me that the greatest difficulty faced by the would-be fantasy writer is that the conventions of modern fantasy are almost cliche. I hope to evade them entirely in my next fantasy effort. If I were to write a goblins and wee people sort of tale, I honestly don't think I could do it without it being some kind of homage or ripoff.

I think if you can look at the first works of an author, and compare it to the last, then you may often find that the style employed has changed with time and practice.

I think that this is the key (pardon me if someone has already said this!) to developing a unique style. Time, patience, and practice.

Practice, practice, practice.

Reading and emulating the work of great authors is an excellent learning tool. But in the end, I suppose that the only way to learn how to write is to write.

And write, and write, and write...

(Of course, there are those folk of rare genius who have a first novel with an utterly unique and world rocking style spring forth from their brains like Athena from the brow of Zeus, but these solitary individuals would not likely be reading this thread! I'm sure such folk exist, but I've never met one!)

[littlemanpoet]

More broth from the Writing Festival I went to for you starving fantasy writers:

Words don't come from heaven or originate in people or events; words do not descend, they ascend from the deep well of the soul.

Try writing the same section over again (after the plot and characters are described) and write in terms of each one of the five senses in turn. We tend to write for the eyes; now try writing for the ears; now for the nose; now for touch; and now, for taste.

Writing from the soul includes but is not limited to my own experience.

Write not just what I know but to learn.

As you spin your stories, pay attention to your own senses by:
- noticing your dreams
- getting acquainted with your fears and desires
- exploring your beliefs - tease them out (my beliefs hang onto me, not the other way around)
- being honest with myself about my life
- giving up my illusions of control
- trusting the creative process
- being at home with your own sexuality

What, you may ask, does any of the above have to do with Tolkien? Well, regarding the last item above, consider the stories of Faramir and Eowyn; Beren and Luthien; Aragorn and Arwen. Tolkien was more comfortable with sexuality than most of the 20th century Edmund Wilson types who obsessed on it. Dream plays a prominent role in LotR. Fear and Desire are at the heart of fantasy, certainly at the very core of LotR. Gandalf helped Frodo to be honest about his own attitude toward Gollum - to the eventual benefit of all the Free Peoples.

Trust your creative process. I am convinced that in every serious writer (of fantasy or anything else) there is a seed of genius worthy of being exposed to the sun of the written page. Take courage. Be bold. Reach down deep inside and bring out what's there. Mold it and shape it. Be surprised. Enjoy it.

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

poet- wow!! I'm scribbling down notes after that post! Some good pointers to take notice of. Heh, now I have to go back and rewrite...alot. Agh, that's so HARD when you have writer's block. Can anyone give me any advice on writer's block? I haven't written anything for a month, not even a complete paragraph that makes progress. Hey, now that's an interesting question. How do you think Tolkien dealt with writer's block if he had any? I think I recall reading somewhere that after he got to Balin's Tomb in Moria he didn't know what to write next, but I forgot how he overcame that. Agh...so frustrating. smilies/mad.gif

[orlandoandsaran]

Yes. I am writing some serious fantasy writing . I haven't been writing long...only for maybe 4 months.
And i have had loads of promblems such as plots...i ran out of plots.
Also when i wanted to describe something...it was very hard because i was trying to find the perfect word for it. I try so hard not to write like Tolkien but that was where i started writing.
So i usually think of Tolkien's world and how it is...it's loveliness and beauty and then i try to imagine my story where is it and stuff like that.
When i think of something really good for my story...i would just jot it down and that is why sometimes i run out of plots coz i sometimes forget o plan what is the next move.
I'm still like in the beginning of my story. I kinda stopped for a while because my exams were taking up most of my free time.
Anyway.......i hope i can be more and more imaginative.
Tolkien Rocks! smilies/cool.gif

[Maikadilwen]

I've heard many people say they're afraid of copying Tolkien, but what about Tolkien's OWN copying? Through his books, there are many similarities to Shakespeare and just reading LOTR, you'll find a lot of "Arthurian" things (the way I see it).

Gandalf = Merlin

Narsil/Andúril = Excalibur - the sword of kings that was broken and reforged.

Isildur = Uther Pendragon - Failed being a good king and was killed.

Aragorn = Arthur - The one true king. The only wielder of the great sword.

And I could go on but I haven't got the time for it now. But the thing is, that you can't really write anything today, without partially "copying" something that has already been made. And I really don't think it matters that much, as long as it's not too obvious. Write whatever comes to your mind, even if it reminds you of something else. You can always change it afterwards. It's called "inspiration". smilies/wink.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Regarding writer's block: Just some suggestions.
1) I have read that the act of dreaming and the act of creative writing both use the same resources in the brain. Keep a pad and pen by your bed and write down your dreams as soon as you can after waking up - if you wait too long you lose so much of it.
2) Read back through your story as a sympathetic critic and ask yourself these questions:
- does this action/thing/person have a greater effect on the plot than what I've accounted for so far?
- have I described fully enough how this character would react/respond to this event?
- is there a smell, tactile sense, taste, or sound I could write into this that would enrich the fabric of my story's world?

If you have run out of plot, maybe you need to make the problem facing your protagonist bigger than you've made it so far.

If you have trouble finding the right word, buy a Roget's Thesaurus; make sure it's the hardcover one with over 250,000 words and phrases.

Happy writing!

[Starbreeze]

Thanks Poet! I have been considering your questions about the level of writing we have reached and I have decided that I am at four, and i have determined myself to reach five, for I doubt that i shall ever reach 6. One step at a time. Thanks so much for starting this thread.

[Maikadilwen]

Starbreeze never doubt your abilities. If you believe you can't reach the sixth level, then you never will. You have to have confidence in yourself, knowing that what you create is great as long as it comes from within. Remember, you yourself, are your worst critic. Leave the judging to others. There'll be plenty in line. smilies/wink.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

Well, this thread has certainly been an enlightening read for one who's but recently caved in and allowed the latest idea (inspired oddly enough by a dream, a need to think up an adventure for my gaming group, and some of the gems posted on the fanfic section here) to come flooding onto paper. Of course with some of the caveats posted to this thread, i'd have to go back and determine if it was indeed "unpublishable" by any standards before submitting it for the omnivorous consumption of the 'Downs readers...

A couple of things to add, since most everything else has been well worked over:

1) On the problems of "imitating Tolkein": i've been writing for my own entertainment (and that of brave friends who've read my stuff) for two decades, and i've developed two distinct authorial voices (one, which i call "Steinbeck Prose", more 'highbrow' and florid (and grammatically complicated) than the other) I would consider writing a given story DELIBERATELY in a Tolkeinesque style to be an interesting challenge, and if i could pull it off half as well as the visionary soul who crossed Tolkein and Austen by foul craft or fair, i'd pat myself on the back. And thus this story starts out with one of the characters making up a twisted little song that just happens to suit the actions and the initial thrust of the plot...

Yet adorning already intricate narration with poetry breaks just because Tolkein did it would be artistically like Prince lacing seven music videos together with the movie "Purple Rain" for a string. So, as it pans out, our singer here would use music and verse as the method of his magic, thus giving the songs a more believable reason to be in the story (or at least i'd hope a reader would think that, find them relevant and appropriate, and maybe even cleverly done, and get a chuckle rather than skipping them...)

2) On Sex, Love, and Good Fiction: always a, um, provocative topic. i've noticed it's easier to handle as i get older (and also easier to write it convincingly) but if the characters aren't cool with it, i wouldn't force them on each other (conversely, some characters i've had to pry off each other with a crowbar) One rule i've always held to is that no character's relationship should be consummated until the end of the story. i'd rather make 'em wait and work for it, and if the tension that drives them drops off before then, i won't bother letting such a resolution happen for them. (Sort of like Life, in a way. Had some characters that caved in to their 'forbidden' attraction to each other -- they spent the rest of their tale dealing with the repercussions from their rash action and maneuvering their way out of the hot water it put them in. Ah, character-revealing conflict!)

But yeah, the carnal angle has been pretty well used & overused by now, so if it doesn't seem like it should be worth mention,or it makes the author feel uncomfortably voyeuristic while trying to write it, off-camera it goes and stays...

and 3) let me add my voice to the raves for having so many folks on here who are serious about their writing -- whether they write for an audience of one or a million. Makes me feel right at home!

be well, and may your ideas never dry up; if they do, do something else for a bit. (Always works for me -- my ideas have come in cycles for years...)

s.t.

[Thinhyandoiel]

My writer's block is gone!!! *does happy dance* I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I was going over the last chapter of my story, and I thought, what would Deomer be thinking after all that? And then it just struck me. My next chapter is practically all character development, especially for the newer members to the party, and I'm SO excited!! Thanks for the advice poet! It helped!

And, what you said about dreams, I do believe that they play an integral role in most writer's life. However my dreams are always so...silly that I don't see how they might have any relevance at all to my work. But I'm gonna try out what you said, and maybe a new idea will come out of all the silliness. ^.^ Thanks!

[Tarthang]

Depends on what you mean by serious Fantasy. Do you mean strictly writing books?
I've been writing material for my own RPG (paper and dice variety) for about three or four years now (far from complete). With the intent to publish it one day if any takers can be found.
It includes a creation story, detailing of deities/powers/gods, playable races, creation of the mechanical system to resolve issues (i.e. the rules on how to make it playable), maps, defining various political, social and religous organizations. In other words world building.
I've read a great many books by a lot of different authors, so ther is little reflective of Tolkien. Except for the Race of Hobbits, in which I'm using only the name (don't like the term Hafling, Waerlinga, Kender and whatnot applied to a race of mannish midgets).
There are a lot of pitfalls to avoid to this type of writing. The hardest to overcome is to synthesize a concept from an author without plaigarizing and making this concept ones own, not a quick, cheap imitation. Other pitfalls include creative dryspells and finding time to work on such a project.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the downs, Saxony Tarn. I love your 'handle'.

No dream is silly. I read a huge and really good book on dreams last summer that really helped me understand mine. Here are a few basics I gleaned from it.
- the act of dreaming is your brain's efforts to sort out the day's experiences and connect them to all of your memories, including the memories of which you are no longer conscious.
- the dreaming brain employs symbols, mostly in the form of people you either know or don't know. These people usually represent aspects of your own personality. If you know them (family or friends or enemies) they probably also represent themselves.-
- the 'you' in your dreams (the observer) is your conscious awareness (Tolkien examples: Frodo, and Sam after Frodo becomes hard to relate to) known by Jung's followers as the consciousness.
- older people represent wizard or wise-woman types - these people connect you to the inherited depths of wisdom of the entire race, even before you were born (Tolkien example: Gandalf) Jung's wiseman.
- a sympathetic person of the opposite sex is perhaps your muse, also that aspect of yourself that carries good mystery (Tolkien example: Galadriel) Jung's anima.
- a fly-in-the-ointment, chaotic, untrustworthy person of the same gender as yourself, is those aspects of yourself you don't like, don't trust, and haven't yet incorporated into your own personality sufficiently yet (Tolkien example: Gollum) Jung's shadow.
- a dark person of the opposite gender that may represent death or destruction (Tolkien ex.: Shelob) Jung's dark anima.

Animals, vegetation, and geometric signs also have symbolic value in dreams. And transformations in dreams have symbolic value, too. For example, I dreamed once that a lion was chasing and caught me. Later I went back and had a waking dream in which I talked to the lion (which had a human face) and learned from it what it was, and it changed into a human being. What had happened was that a formerly unknown and poorly understood part of myself became known and integrated for me.

Of course, all this is just one well-developed "take" on dreams. Being a model, it's imperfect, but still can be quite helpful in making sense of your dreams.

It occurs to me that there are no transformations in LotR, except for Beorn. The only other ones I can think of are Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn seeming to grow in stature and power and regality, respectively. Or Saruman being 'unwizarded'. All other transformations occur within the personality of the characters. Hobbits stay hobbits, Men stay men, Elves remain elves. And Tolkien loses nothing by refraining from these transformations. Oh, there's Elwing turned into a gull (swan?) and Luthien turns into some kind of animal, doesn't she?

Tolkien's exceptions, where he allows transformations, increase the significance of this for me. I guess I'm writing about this because I had determined that one of the most powerful things in fantasy is transformation. The symbolic value alone is tremendous. I think I need to start a new thread...

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Starbreeze]

I found a way around not being able to write battles! At the moment, well, for about the past year or so, I have been bullied and on Friday last it reached its worst - I was pushed into the toilets, shoved around and basically ridiculed and beaten. However, despite it being a very nasty experience for me, something good did come out of it. Because of what happened, and has been happening for the past year and a half, I have harboured quite a lot of hate and anger. On Friday, after what happened, I went home, quite shaky, I decided to write some more on my story to calm me down, and all the hate that had been building up inside me suddenly came rushing out as a brilliant (if I do say so myself) battle sequence. It just goes to show that every cloud has a silver lining.
By the way, I may be sounding cheerful about this, and I guess I'm not that cut up about the bulling now, coz I released all the hate etc. into my story.

[Ainu]

I've been working on a fantasy story now for only a year, I drew a picture of a this girl sat next to this amazing but strange building and then just started building up her character profile and I also drew other characters and places<mostley of which I got from dreams I had> and then named places and people, I've started to work on my plot now, I've got all the characters, I just need to figure where I'm gonna go from here........ smilies/smile.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/evil.gif smilies/cool.gif

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Ainu ]

[WillowStarmist]

My story is about 4 kingdoms ruled by the different elements and stuff, I've come up with some characters I like but it's still in the planning stages at the moment, but I am taking it seriously(maybe a bit too seriously but ah well never mind) smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/evil.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the downs, Ainu and Willowstarmist. I hope you have found this thread enjoyable and helpful.

I like the four elements idea, Willow!

For plot, Ainu, I suggest, follow your dreams...

Happy writing!

[Nar]

Starbreeze, I'm very sorry to hear you're being bullied-- I remember dealing with all of that stuff, ugh! You're doing the right thing writing through it, good job! Don't just console yourself, though, get some advice locally, and make some trouble! You should not have to put up with this, and if your school does not have an anti-bullying program in place, it flaming well should! Grrr. What you describe in writing your battle scene is a major function of writing fantasy, or any kind of story: to pull the causes of your fury and sadness out of the back of your mind, where they can rule you and cloud your mind, into the page under your eyes, where you gain the perspective to rule them. Also, writing from a strong emotion does tend to produce better work.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I think that someone mentioned dreams as being inspirations. I always had trouble writing about battles too, but not so much anymore. As completely ridiculous as this sounds, I always seem to have the most maddening great dreams just before the full moon. I received enough material to write several new chapters on my novel from one week of dreams that completely blew my mind. I wondered where they came from because there was no way that I could ever have invented such poignantly beautiful threads by myself.

About the bullying: I often find that when bad stuff like that happens, it gives my imagination a major jump-start. My story characters are channels for my emotions and the lessons and truths that I learn the hard way.

P.S. Can anyone give me the address of a really good site that I can share my ideas on? Tolkien's Inklings made me so envious, and I really need someplace to spill my literary work outside of the Barrowdowns.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Starbreeze, I agree with Nar (very good words by the way), but I really can't stand it when people get bullied. It doesn't matter if I like the person or not, but I just can not stand that! Seriously, and I'm not usually the violent person.....well, not usually, ok sometimes. SOMETIMES! I have a brother and sisters, so you know. But I really think you should just punch those damn idiots. Really beat the...crap, outta them. And believe me, it's REALLY hard not cursing right now. I'm trying though!! But don't ever let anybody boss you around and think that they can do that to you. Although I think you are taking it in a very good way though, writing all of that down seems like it's helping. And good luck with your story, and everyone else's! As corny as this may sound, you guys really inspired me. It sounds like a lot of fun and I think I'm gonna try and write something of my own. I have a lot of ideas! And please people, let me know when you guys finish your stories, cuz I'm dying to read some of yours!!!! smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

[Nufaciel]

I've been working on a story for a couple of months on and off. I got the idea to do it from a fan fiction being written by me and others on another site (based in Tolkien's world) and everyone thought I should give it a try. I love to read, and to write, so I thought, why not? I'm also a language freak, and I am developing languages for my book. It will be a while before it's done significantly.

[Maikadilwen]

let me know when you guys finish your stories, cuz I'm dying to read some of yours!!!!
Well, in my case, all you have to do is hang on for a couple more years. I think I may have finished it by then. smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Silver Shod Muse, check out Faeriewordweavers, started by our own Niphredil Baggins. You'll see the link a little further up this thread. Look for Nephredil's post.

[Cimmerian]

Is serious RPGaming a form of Fantasy writing?
I have been doing it for years.
smilies/wink.gif

http://www.conan.no/images/website/thorgrim_01.jpg

THE CIMMERIAN

[littlemanpoet]

Hi Cimmerian. I used to have almost the entire CtB comic book collection up to about issue 200, then sold it all. I have a lot of respect for Robert E. Howard's creative genius, surpassed by few others besides Tolkien.

I do not include serious role play gaming in my conception of serious writing. I used to do serious role play dungeon mastering, and now distinguish between the two, having chosen the writing over the game prep and play.

Writing contains a qualitatively higher level of artistic endeavor than role playing, the literary. I don't deny the great fun and seriousness of fantasy role playing, however the refinements required to make a story - on paper - that deals not only with plot and character and cosmos/world development, but with word choice and beauty of expression, as well as form and content, are at a higher level of seriousness than role playing.

That's my take, at least.

Now, if you wind up turning your plot and character and world story that your role playing has created into a written story, you've raised your level of seriousness.

No hard feelings, Cimmerian, just my pov.

[Nar]

I basically agree with your position on RPG, littlemanpoet-- and you know more about them than I, I have only played a few, briefly, and I've never run a game. I think, however, that your suggestion at the end that the results of a game could be written up and become a work of fiction is very true. That last stage of putting all of the creation, including the events & reactions in the game down in written form, and possibly editing and coalating it would produce art, and there's no limit to how good or serious it might become.

There's a theory that the plays of Shakespeare were a group effort-- that Shakespeare wrote the scenarios and most of the dialogue, and the actors then fleshed out their characters by adding or expanding their lines, and the resulting plays were later written up. This would account for the plays' huge vocabulary-- as I understand it, no other author has ever coined or used so many different words. I tend to disagree with this theory; I tend to think think Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare, rather than a group or the Earl of Oxford or whoever, but this 'the plays were written by a group' theory does works very well to explain things like Shylock suddenly turning from a cardboard villain into a human being and tragic figure in the end of The Merchant of Venice-- I can imagine the actor doing Shylock getting carried away by his character, breaking out of his limited role and ad-libbing his 'If you prick us, do we not bleed?' speech.

Suppose the plays of Shakespeare were a group effort, then they would be literature's first and greatest body of work derived from a RPG. Shakespeare would be both 'Court and Dungeon' -master and editor/poliser/poet of the published Folio containing the plays. This final process of gathering and editing would have been crucial in pulling the plays into unified works of art. Even if the plays were a group effort, there's no disputing that Shakepeare was a brilliant poet, and storyteller, he just may also have been a brilliant editor.

[Cimmerian]

Hey, Cool!
I love to write as narratives from third person to first person views and RPG really gets me going.

You got that right about REH, brother! He's right there among the best, too bad he didn't get fifty more years of a writing career.

Hey, I have all the books on Conan, the novels, the mags, the shorts and all the marvel comics, but this isn't the place to discuss my Hyborian obsession.

Thanks for you views, you write well!

[Saxony Tarn]

well, thanks, littlemanpoet, undoubtedly yours has many layers of kenning too...

interesting points about dreams, and also from the Cimmerian about writing for RPGs, Crom knows i've done enough of that for my own game (where i'm preparing to send them to Middle-Earth on a scavenger hunt, of all places, right in the middle of the action. Yes, something really IS rotten in the land of Gondor, you could say...) Some of it, i suppose, could make great narrative fiction later (tales from the game log "The Story so Far") and i find myself planning things that hang on the anticipated reactions of the players/characters to certain things i stage in their paths. Part of what makes being a GM so much fun i guess...

well, i suppose i should get back to work on that fanfic, so i can have something more to talk about on this delightful forum of yours!

ST

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Thanks for telling me about Faeriewordweavers littlemanpoet! I've been gone for a while and just sat back down to a computer, so it's taken me a while to reply. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Laiedheliel]

On Writing Fantasy--Most of my ideas come from places I've seen or dreamt of. Alot of my characters are based on my family and close friends, but also and quite prominately the different aspects of my (if I may say so myself) diverse personality. My feelings and thoughts are constantly ripping me into little tiny pieces. I almost always write about the past, at least from my POV, and I almost always base it in a land seperate and different from the one we live in. It is truely difficult not to take another story's world and steal from it, or to build upon a world already created and set forth, ready and waiting patiently for someone to set events down in its borders. My solution is simply remembering that what I am writing is diferent from what I am reading, or what I remember reading. I know that the character I put in one of the RPGs here has been adapted from one of my own stories because she was my faveorite. But she didn't start as on of Tolkien's Rangers. She started as a Shieldmaiden traveling the world constantly evolving in my mind, betrothed to someone higher than her, almost untouchable. It is verrry hard.

On RPGs--Yes, it is serious fantasy, and No, it's not. It depends on what level you write it. If you are one of the rare jewels who take into concideration grammer, word choice, and plot lines, than you may be writing something serious. But if you just throw things out 'cuz it sounded cool in your head, than you may not.

On Time-- I have been writing fantasy stories since I was six or seven. I have jumped from story to story and the one I am working in earnest on now I have been tackling for a meagre 2 weeks.

An Open Question-- Is fanfiction serious fantasy? I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on anything I've said in my post, please write back, 'cuz I never get any replies. *snif, snif*

[littlemanpoet]

If you haven't guessed already, Laiedheliel, my standards for serious fantasy are pretty high. If it starts out as fanfic then takes off and becomes truly your own, then in my pov it's serious. I guess part of the standard for me is that the subcreation is coming mostly out of your own creativity and does not depend for its very existence on someone else's subcreated system.

By the way, welcome to the Downs, Laiedheliel. smilies/smile.gif

[Thinhyandoiel]

Well...I've read some really good fanfiction of Tolkien that take place after the books. It's really well done, the plot is amazing, her grammar is incredible, characterization unbelievable! But, it's not original in the sense that she (and every other fanfiction writer...myself included) borrow characters for their plot. If you, say, take that wonderful little plot, and put something of your own into it (ie. your own characters) instead of someone elses, then it becomes your own, and shows your creativity and how much effort you put into the story. I'm not saying fanfiction is bad though, I love fanfiction. And I know it can be hard to write it as well from personal experience. I'm just saying basically what littlemanpoet said but WAY longer. *sheepish grin* oops..hehe. sorry!

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Hey your from Canada! Cool. Ok, this fantasy writing stuff sounds really cool, and I was just wondering if some of you have your fanfiction on a website or something. If you do, please tell me which one!

[Thinhyandoiel]

Yep! A proud Canadian! smilies/biggrin.gif
I have mine at fanfiction.net, under the original sections. But, it's in the first draft and WAY sucks right now. *ugh*

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Wow, that's so cool smilies/smile.gif I'm gonna be a Canadian. When I move there with Chad. Well Chad already lives there, he lives in Vancouver. Well of course, that's if I don't get Billy but that won't happen, cuz I'm a very determined person! But Chad.....oh yeaah. I think I shouldn't be writing stuff like this anyway cuz this isn't the Nickelback message board. But I just have to say things like this sometimes cuz I'm always in situations where something reminds me of them and I have to say it! But are you from Vancouver????? That would be so awesome!!!!!! And ok, last one sorry, but do you like Nickelback? I just had to ask and sorry cuz this has nothing to do with the topic. Sorry, I do this to other people too when I have things remind me of The Lord of the Rings. I have problems people.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Scotland is cool too!! I'm gonna move there and tour around the country with me bagpipes! And live in a castle.....Hey that'd be awesome! Ok, I have to say something related to the topic.....ok what is the topic again?....... Oh yeah! Ok, writing serious fantasy....Yeah I think I'm gonna do that.

[Laiedheliel]

Hey, I love Nickelback! Have you heard the new song by Chad Kroeger on the Spidey soundtrack? It rocks!! smilies/biggrin.gif

Do you guys know any other places to read/post fanfic (besides this site, I mean). The stuff I've read here is great, but I was just wondering...?

O, and thanx, littlemanpoet! smilies/biggrin.gif I really like it here, everyone is so friendly, unlike some other boards I've been on. People can be, and usually are, really mean.
smilies/frown.gif

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Laiedheliel ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I know!!!!!!! That song is awesome!!!! And Chad is soooo hot.....that would be awesome if you're from Vancouver! AAAAHHHH maybe you saw them!!!!! Ok, I'm just working myself up now. Oh! I saw them once in concert at the Hammerstien Ballroom in NYC...damn they were awesome!!! And Saliva and Default were like opening acts and they were awesome too, but I mean, come on, NO ONE compares to Nickelback!!

Ok, I know only one site where they have some stories sent in by people and stuff, well I have so many websites that I keep in my favorites box thingy but one of them has that kinda thing, what I think your looking for. It's.....http://www.tolkientrail.com
That's actually a pretty good website! Ok, e-mail me or instant message me if you wanna talk about Nickelback or want more websites-I got a lot more websites! My e-mail address is Marie385@aol.com and that's the same for instant message. Actually I have an aim sn too. It's LotR29. Talk to you later people!!!!
smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

No, I don't live in Vancouver, I live in Edmonton, Alberta. But they grew up in Alberta so kudos to me! smilies/biggrin.gif Yes, I do like Nickelback, they're the only kind of "that" band I can listen to. smilies/biggrin.gif

Other fanfic sites? Uh...fanfiction.net? Hehe. Go to the Lord of the Rings section. There are some GREAT ones there! Some suggested authors:

Thundera Tiger (http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=12399) (awesome...just awesome)
Pachelbel (http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=89101) (she has a Glorfindel fic!! smilies/biggrin.gif)
Mary-Lou (http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=158950) (great for a good laugh!!)

I know lots of good authors and fics on that site. Just ask and I shall bestow all my wisdom!! ^.^

[Morquesse]

Greetings, people. smilies/smile.gif
Are any of you writing serious fantasy?
Very much so(though I'm more of a thinker then a writer at the moment)

how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?
I get rid of everthing I have thought of, and start over.

How long have you been working on your story, and why?
About two years, and because I enjoy it.

What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?
Well, copying others, (I told you how I got rid of them up above)
and lack of plots, which I overcome by doing more thinking.

I hope to continue having discussions with you guys, and I hope I'm accepted. smilies/smile.gif

See ya,
~M

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to the Downs, Morquesse. We try to keep a high standard of courtesy here, so fear not, friend.

What kind of writing do you do?

What's your thinking process like after you've "chucked it all"?

The most basic elements of plot are conflict and goals. Come up with a big enough conflict, or problem to solve, or wrong to be righted, and you'll find yourself neck deep in plot.

Happy writing (and thinking)!

[Saxony Tarn]

in a daring attempt to tackle the originality line AND the Canadian tangent, here's advice on "copying" from one of my major writing influences -- a musician, but it's easily applicable to any artform.

The best way to develop an orginal style, he said, was not to copy one artist, but to copy twenty... then he adds with a grin, "I copied a hundred!" (N. Peart, RUSH) People today can look at my artwork and tell me what type of comics i read/watched when young, they can see the echoes of each different influence and also the results of the synthesis of all of them. In that way the whole is greater than the sum of all the parts.

Heck, coming up in my plot is a pivotal line drawn straight from a Conan Meets Elric book i read some 25 years ago and have never seen again. Why pay homage to that concept with my own twist on it? 'cause i like it, and it fits!

This is a really good forum, so let me put a twist on littlemanpoet's topic:

"are you writing fantasy seriously"

in the case that most if not all of us are putting no small amount of time and effort into our tales, i'd have to say that we are!

s.t.

[Morquesse]

Thanx for the welcome, LittleManPoet! smilies/smile.gif

What kind of writing do you do?
I haven't got a style yet, if that'a what you mean?

What's your thinking process like after you've "chucked it all"?
(I've only done it about twice, and the second time more successful) I make a list of what I REALLY like, as oppose to using other authors stuff that they made that sounds really neat.
Example: I like Tolkien's Dwarves, but I don't really care for dwarves in general, exept for his, so I pick something that I liked from the start.

Happy writing,and thanks for your advice! smilies/wink.gif
~M

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

First, I just gotta say something. Thinhyandoiel- That's so awesome!!!!!!!! Your from the same place that Chad and Mike Kroeger were raised, and I'm pretty sure Ryan too but not sure about Nik. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I'm just acting like a retarded teeny bopper or something. But Nickelback isn't pop music though. (thank God!!!)Ok, now that I completly forgot what I was going to say.....oh yeah! Ok, I'm gonna go check out those websites, thanks!!!!! smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[Nar]

Yea, Saxony Tarn! Hear, Hear! You are so right about sources and originality. Copy a hundred, copy a thousand sources, inside of fantasy and outside. Borrow from every source, be ruled by none!

[Saxony Tarn]

|_|) <-- It comes in pints, Nar, and this one's for you!

Indeed, when i manage to get some fanfic up to balance out the free hand with which i've been writing reviews for the pieces i've found worthy of a second read up there, you'll probably be able to pick out more than a few influences. And if you e-mail me and say, for example, "ah ha, i bet you grew up reading ElfQuest, Anne McCaffrey, and Savage Sword of Conan when your mother wasn't looking", i'll grin and take it as a compliment!

s.t.

[Mister Underhill]

RE: Nickelback, Chad's hotness, etc... these are way off-topic. Take such conversation private, please.

-Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

[Thinhyandoiel]

Ah, sorry Mister Underhill!! I'll remember that. smilies/wink.gif

Mae govannen Morquesse! Welcome to the Downs! Hope you enjoy your deadness as much as the rest of us! smilies/smile.gif

Saxony Tarn:
"Are you writing fantasy seriously?"
O.o that IS a twist on the original subject..and very clever might I add! I'd have to say sometimes yes, and sometimes no. And that makes me want to kick myself. Some of the latest chapters I have written...I wasn't INTO them, if you follow me. But, once you get me editing, watch out cuz I leave no detail alone! Heheh.

It's nice to think that all of our favourite authors were serious about their work. I highly doubt that if Tolkien wasn't serious about LOTR or the Hobbit, it wouldn't have turned out as great as it did. (Or maybe it would have...maybe he was just plain brilliant and didn't have to really try...O.o...I'm jealous!! smilies/smile.gif)

[littlemanpoet]

Hi, Morquesse, it was really an open-ended question. What do you like to write, dialogue? narrative? battle scenes? descriptions of the places? poetry? myth? folk tale? etc.

Anybody else who wants to respond to this new question, feel free, of course. smilies/smile.gif

As for me, I was told way back in '86 that I had a gift for dialogue and needed to work on my description so I really did a lot of dialogue and worked on the description, and my writer's group has been encouraging me to cut cut cut unnecessary dialogue and scale back on the description. Ah, me. They're right, of course. What I really like writing is mythic stuff from prehistory, like origins stories in the deeps of time before the Goths came out of Scandinavia.

[Nar]

Hey, good question. I must have missed it. In my real world meets twilight zone stories, my characters are in a bad place telling stories to keep their souls alive-- ex, my little old lady in a nursing home is telling stories to keep ownership of her life, but she keeps getting interrupted *would do mad smiley here but it would be too harsh, what's kinda mad?*. She's currently duelling with the pill-dispensing lady, and I'm trying to think of what fierce and horrible story she will deploy to fend off those pills. In my adventures in a strange place-- I guess that's fantasy-- my characters are throwing themselves at the limits of their lives. So in the first case, 'How can I stay myself?' in the second, 'I hate death/entrapment.' Those are my two themes right now.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

No, sorry, that was my fault. I get caught up with them sometimes. Sorry Mister Underhill!

[Maikadilwen]

I sometimes have trouble describing things properly. I want to describe things so I'm sure the reader will "see" the place, person etc., but then, I'm a bit afraid of being too describing in my writing, something I think Tolkien overdid a few times. He could use half a page to describe a tree. OK, not exactly true, but you know what I mean, right? smilies/wink.gif If you overdo it, it tends to get boring, and then some ppl will skip through the text and perhaps miss something of importance. I think it can be difficult to find the line. How do you know when it's enough or too much? I mean, I've SEEN the places I write about (in dreams) and I want my reader to see them as well, not to skip pages because my describtions are too thouroughly.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Morquesse]

I think I like to do dialogue the most. For me, it's easy to do, and it can be interesting. smilies/smile.gif

originaly by Maikedilwen
I sometimes have trouble describing things properly. I want to describe things so I'm sure the reader will "see" the place, person etc., but then, I'm a bit afraid of being too describing in my writing, something I think Tolkien overdid a few times. He could use half a page to describe a tree. OK, not exactly true, but you know what I mean, right? If you overdo it, it tends to get boring, and then some ppl will skip through the text and perhaps miss something of importance. I think it can be difficult to find the line. How do you know when it's enough or too much? I mean, I've SEEN the places I write about (in dreams) and I want my reader to see them as well, not to skip pages because my describtions are too thouroughly.

I haven't done very many, but I would think that you should do some describtions, but not so many that it does not leave room for imagination.
Just a thought,
~M

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Morquesse ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Description's one thing -- what i call my "Steinbeck" style is another. (i don't quite know how that particular author came to be linked with it, but the idea was that it was supposed to be high, mighty, pompous and grandiose. Although i've never needed a page to describe the average tree. A particularly salient specimen that should have plot value to justify it, maybe.)

Problem i have is, i'm also a bit of an artist in my own mind, and i want to be able to describe, say, a character's costume and gear well enough so that another artist friend could sketch it and come up with something relatively close to what i'd have in my own sketchbook ...which reminds me, i need to do just such reference sketches for my latest project, it helps keep ME consistent as well, and that brings me to

Inconsistency, which is another thing -- this isn't Toon, so characters shouldn't be pulling suddenly-needed equipment out of extradimensional pockets and leaving us wondering where they had been keeping it for the last five chapters. (If they're wizards, of course, they might but shouldn't rely on it!) The "Conservation of Plot Points" Rule is one fact-checking thing i subject my drafts to; its main thrust is that if it's introduced, it's clear to the reader, and likewise that nothing mentioned is left unaccounted-for - unless, for example, it is intended to be a set-up for a sequel. Some readers are like that and love nothing more than pointing out to you that, say, Poughkeepsie is in New York, not New Jersey, so in anticipation of those types i tend to be one myself when crafting something that might be read by others.

Sparkling Repartee also has its well-deserved high seat at the table, so let me throw this chunk of meat out:

What way of developing characters works best for you? Action? Forced Cooperation? Psychological / Conversational interaction?

i favor throwing a few more-or-less-unlikely types together, giving them a situation to deal with, and seeing how they react to each other -- quite often they surprise me; act on their own initiative before i'd planned for them to do a given thing, reveal depths & layers to their makeup that i hadn't figured them for having and such. For example, several characters in various stories have "come out" in the process of writing, and i usually look back at 'em & find that it was a logical development, though i hadn't envisioned them that way at first. Do any of you have characters like that -- that being, characters that get up off the page and exercise Free Will of their own? And do you beat them back down into submission or just stand back & roll with it?

This becomes more of a challenge in some ways to do with a borrowed character - for the stock example here, a Tolkein character you've borrowed for fanfic - because then you're the actor who's been handed a script, and it's your task to extrapolate, given what you can infer from the main story, how that character might react to what you're subjecting him/her to. Example from my own project: just last night a certain borrowed Tolkein character felt that his extensive combat expertise wasn't getting the proper amount of deference from the leader of the party he'd found himself in, so he decided to pull rank on her -- far sooner than i'd expected him to, eh, cross swords with anyone in the party, and, given the approaching Orcs i'd just mentioned a paragraph back, at the most inconvenient moment possible. After going back and reading the exchange of barbed dialogue that ensued and hasty compromise that resulted, i thought, "Yeah, that is very much in character for him, in fact i can see *actor's name deleted* delivering those lines with just the right touch of chauvenistic S.O.B." ...and i now figure this as the beginning of a beautiful love/hate relationship!

Anyone else have some memorable character-development experiences to share?

|_|) |_|) |_|) <-- a round for all on this thread, from newcomers to charter members. Fill w/ your favorite virtual bard-oil beverage and enjoy!

s.t.
(and here i was worried when the Elf suddenly got all attitudinal on me...!!)

[Nar]

Maikadilwen-- Good thoughts on description. I too feel it's very important to describe things-- and you see it so vividly in your mind when your writing/making it up, don't you? You're right about Tolkien overwriting a bit-- but I like it anyway. Check out the 'Middle-Earth comes to life' thread for some Tolkien descriptions. As for finding that line, it depends on what sounds right to you, so try reading it aloud to yourself to activate your 'inner ear,' so to speak. You'll know what you like.

Saxony Tarn-- Whoa! I'm still reeling from that last round you got me! I broke out my friend's homebrew for your toast, which I sipped out of my tea cup-- pinky properly extended, of course. Lucky I saved half the bottle in my refrigerator. I must have psychic-ly anticipated I'd be having another! Where's my tea cup? Oh, here it is. Have a tea cup of Ale yourself. @\_/
Sorry it's not a pint, we only have tea cups here. smilies/smile.gif

As for characters breaking out and surprising you, that means the writing is working, you lucky dog. Glad to hear it. Yeah, it happens to me too. Just today a character who is supposed to break my hero's heart turned out nicer than I meant her to be and gave herself a down-to-earth nickname that totally changed my feelings about her, thereby wrecking my plot plans. The best experience I had was in the middle of an angst-ridden real-world story chock full of symbolism. I was writing away and suddenly I couldn't-- take-- the-- pain-- anymore, then I realized, 'I'm the author, I don't have to put up with this,' so I broke into the story via brackets and told the heroine, 'I'll save you!' Then I blew a hole in the airplane and sucked her whining fiancee out into bluespace-- Yeahh!!! (She wasn't hurt, SHE was wearing her seatbelt.) It greatly improved the story but it sort of wrecked all the symbolism. smilies/biggrin.gif

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Laiedheliel]

Sorry Mister Underhill, I'll be good. smilies/wink.gif smilies/evil.gif

I love to write anything, and in all sorts of ways. I am better at narratives and descriptions, so I tend to sway towards them, and also to avoid excess dialogue. Sometimes I don't have anything for my characters to say! smilies/smile.gif

[Starbreeze]

I sometimes have trouble describing things properly. I want to describe things so I'm sure the reader will "see" the place, person etc., but then, I'm a bit afraid of being too describing in my writing, something I think Tolkien overdid a few times. He could use half a page to describe a tree. OK, not exactly true, but you know what I mean, right? If you overdo it, it tends to get boring, and then some ppl will skip through the text and perhaps miss something of importance. I think it can be difficult to find the line. How do you know when it's enough or too much? I mean, I've SEEN the places I write about (in dreams) and I want my reader to see them as well, not to skip pages because my describtions are too thouroughly.

Me too. I started a description and it just went on and on. The stupid thing is it was all necessary to the story, all relevant. If I cut any out the things later on in the story wouldn't make sense. In the end the description was about 3 A4 pages, six sides, that has to be too long!

I really wish I had more time to post now! I have so much to write here but no time! stupid exams, can't some one postpone them by a few months?! smilies/frown.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Writing descriptions of fantasy characters presents a unique challenge because you evoke archetypes. The moment you have done this in your story, you have immediately filled your reader's mind with a host of connections the reader may be hardly aware of. The challenge is to keep from messing with the archetype too much. On a more basic level, some readers would rather supply hair and eye color themselves and practically resent an author insisting on blondeness, for example. My own story does not allow the reader this luxury. Everybody's hair and eyes are described. Maybe that's rather proprietary of me, but I insist.

In my latest rewrite of my first chapter, I tried just naming a thing with which most people (in my country/region) are familiar, such as species of trees, birds, mammals, which seems to work because the protagonist is in the forest. So I don't have to describe the bird - the species name serves as an adequate 'tag' to evoke the image in the reader's mind. Now, the difficulty with this comes when you subcreate a whole new creature in your fantasy world. Then you have to decide just how much description is necessary. I would lean on as little as possible to evoke the salient nature of the being.

Saxony Tarn, your "conservation of plot points" is excellent. I've run into that any number of times, usually catching them myself in the rewrite. "Oh! That's right! He's supposed to have a bandage on his left hand the whole time! She would have noticed. He couldn't just throw a left hook." And so forth.

I've always liked developing characters through conversational interaction, but as my sympathetic writer's group have said over and over again, if it doesn't move the plot forward, the interaction tends to seem pointless, even if it's developing character. So I try to limit my dialogue to that which does. As you can probably tell, I tend to be long winded 'on paper'. So I will use action, forced cooperation, psychological interaction, and any other method that comes to hand so long as it drives the plot.

|_|) aaah! Thanks much, Saxony Tarn.

Starbreeze, my suggestion regarding the necessary description would be to spread it out as much as you're able through your story's action.

|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)

Here's a go around for all. Happy quaffing and writing!

[Starbreeze]

Thanks Poet, but I'm too young to drink, I will settle for an orange juice though! smilies/smile.gif

[Maikadilwen]

Then come stay with me Starbreeze. You only have to be 18 to drink in DK. This one's on me everyone. |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
I can easily follow you Starbreeze. I too think that 3 pages of description may be a little too much. I'm afraid of describing things to death.
I have described some of my characters since their looks are important for the understanding of how other characters react to them, but other not so important persons have been left to the reader to imagine.

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Nar]

The thing with descriptions, origins, cosmic histories, and overviews of the world, is that the story is initially ordered by the way the writer needed to invent it. That often means 'top-down' or chronologically from the origin. So it starts with an overview or history or the birth of the hero's great-grandfather because that's how the writer developed the story. Then, often in the rewrite the writer decides it would be better to throw the reader into the middle of the good part, and the first couple of scene-setting sections are moved down to flashbacks later in the story.

So, if you find yourself needing to reorder your story, that's good, that means you're really working it, doing sophisticated editing. (It's also good to write it perfectly the first time, so if you never need editing, don't feel bad! smilies/tongue.gif )

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Starbreeze]

Sorry Maika, I'm 16, and only just that! No alcohol for a little while, I am strictly law abiding! (besides, to tell the truth, I'm not that keen on the stuff! smilies/wink.gif )

By the way, I meant to say this before, thanks to everyone for supporting me when I got bullied. It is all sorted out now, the bullies have been sorted out and given suitable punishments and I have two extra battle scenes for my story. I don't know where I'm going to put them yet, so I'd better finish revising and start writing, before I loose my thread!

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Starbreeze ]

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

I love just inventing worlds and characters, and histories of those worlds. I just started writing a story in which an empire of seven worlds linked by magical rifts which is invaded by an army of evil beings - orcs, goblins, dragons and huge demons! To seal the new rift to the demon realm a band of warriors and magicians must enter into the demon realm and defeat 5 Demon Warlocks and defeat the Demon Warlord, meanwhile the armys of the empire of the 7 worlds are desperatley defending their worlds!

[Thinhyandoiel]

Heheh, haven't been online for like...two days or so. Oops. I too, am only 17, so I'll pass on the beer. Enjoy yourselves though! ^.^

I have trouble describing things too. I've gotten remarks from readers asking about certain characters, towns, fields...etc. I've come to realize that, the thing is, I can SEE everything in my mind, of what everything and everyone looks like, and when I write, it's like I only write for me, so no real description is necessary. I'm working on it though. Might take a while..*sighs* oh well! Can't get good at something unless you work at it! smilies/wink.gif

Memorable character development experiences? YES! The main character in my story, well..I didn't know a thing about what he was like when I started writing. He was a bit sarcastic, in a smart-*** sort of way. Always saying something not to be mean, but to get a good laugh out of the others. I guess he was sort of patronizing...but his character just sort of wrote itself and then one day, someone asked about more description on that character, saying that he thought he was a skeptic. That blew me away because I never knew that my character was like that, but once I read over my story, I could see that yes, he WAS skeptic...of everything!!
Another experience I had with developing two of my characters occurred during their first meeting. It came out that they were complete opposites, they argued about everything. From parchment, to spears, to other characters...I had to put them in seperate corners!! smilies/rolleyes.gif
With another character, he was not even planned to appear, he wasn't supposed to BE there. But as I was writing, I just sort of frowned, and said "And...where did you come from?" But ah well, he's there to stay. I also found out something wierd yesterday!! My characters' names sometimes mean something in their own language. But those that I just "made up" off the top of my head, don't have special meanings to them. Well, one of those names..DOES mean something. It means Wise Healing and it's EXACTLY what that character is like!!! I was a bit blown away. Heheh.

Inconsistency..how often have I struggled with that little bugger? One of my heroes just fell OFF a building, thereby breaking two of his ribs. The next day..he's strolling down the countryside. Needless to say, that got scrapped. Oops. ^.^ Heheh.

Has anyone just gotten so SICK of a character that they just can't wait to kill him/her off? Or, they make as much bad things happen to them as possible?? I was just wondering, because I feel that way sometimes. Someone told me that means you really know your characters. Someone else told me that means you're letting your feelings get in the way of your writing. What do y'all think?

[Starbreeze]

With another character, he was not even planned to appear, he wasn't supposed to BE there. But as I was writing, I just sort of frowned, and said "And...where did you come from?" But ah well, he's there to stay

I did the same with several of my characters. With one of them, I was talking to a friend and she said that I should have an archer in my story (she is obsessed with archery) The people in my story are peaceful, not aggressive, so I don't have archers and soldiers etc. so I had to create a new land just beyond where my people dwell. Then I made the people who lived in the new place aggressive, so that they could have archers for my friend. However, I now had to make them interact with the people I already had. So Then I had to create a main archer who would come down from that land and interact with the peaceful people. Then I thought - why would this person come down by themselves? - so I made another person.

Then some of my peaceful people had to find out about the aggressive ones so I had to create another character who was wise in the lore of these people, and all people, who could tell them, so through the demand for one archer, I had to create a whole race of people, and three quite important other parts. As that part hasn't finished yet I might still create more unplanned additions to the storyline!

Another experience I had with developing two of my characters occurred during their first meeting. It came out that they were complete opposites, they argued about everything. From parchment, to spears, to other characters...I had to put them in seperate corners!!

The same with two of my characters - Tomar and Imila - they were meant to be friends, and support each other, but they just don't get on! Every little thing they disagree about! Oh well, my story writes itself, I have no control over it anymore, I am just a tool the characters use to make their story real.


smilies/rolleyes.gif Has anyone just gotten so SICK of a character that they just can't wait to kill him/her off? Or, they make as much bad things happen to them as possible?? I was just wondering, because I feel that way sometimes. Someone told me that means you really know your characters. Someone else told me that means you're letting your feelings get in the way of your writing. What do y'all think?

Yes. I got sick of Imila ranting and raving and going off in a strop all the time and making the hero, Tomar, feel bad. I have already decided to kill her off at the end of the story, or towards the end. She will die nobly though, she will sacrifice her life for the cause that they are fighting for. (notice I'm not giving too much away here!)

[Maikadilwen]

Has anyone just gotten so SICK of a character that they just can't wait to kill him/her off?
I dearly love all my charaters so I won't say I'm sick of any of them. One of my main characters though, is of a race that is just miserable. Take all the sorrows of Tolkiens elves 10 times and put it on one single character, then you've got my sweetie. She's truly the most depressing charater I've ever made. It will be pure mercy the day I take her out. But maybe I'll resurrect her into a form with a little more happiness. smilies/wink.gif

[Morquesse]

Has anyone just gotten so SICK of a character that they just can't wait to kill him/her off? Or, they make as much bad things happen to them as possible??

I usaully don't kill the character because I'm sick of him, but more in the area of I don't know to end the story, and so killing the character is a likely option. But like Maika, I usaully like my characters too much to kill them. smilies/biggrin.gif

And Thinhyandoiel, I forgot to say thanx for your welcome to me. smilies/smile.gif

~M

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Hey, I'm only 15, but I'll take the beer smilies/biggrin.gif But what would anybody reccomend (hopefully I spelled that right) but ok, what would anybody SUGGEST about starting a fantasy novel-should I just plan out the characters first or should I just go along with it and make them up as I go. Like just write not really think everything out.

[Nar]

My advice is just work out a core of characters. You don't need to invent everybody right away. Then, set up an interesting situation and start writing. You'll usually have a feeling about where the story will go but not an exact idea-- and it may all change as you write. Writing's a lot like dreaming, as you write you pose questions which your deep mind answers. The answers may surprise you or not, and the story rolls on to new questions.

[littlemanpoet]

Well said, Nar. I would have offered the same answer.

As to killing off a character because I'm sick of him/her, no. There's one character in my story that I love, and the greater the tragedy I put her through, the more I love her. Of course, her terrible times fit right into the plot, or will better in the next rewrite. Sometimes I wonder if that's how it is with the our creator and us... (no theology, please) - it just feels that way sometimes...

[Saxony Tarn]

Woof! i knew that post about characters would provoke a response, but that was incredible! Wonder if i can top that...

i did have to create one character for the sole purpose of killing him off, so i made certain that he would meet his fate in a way that would seem "in character" with him and also result in a pivotal plot point for the others (what he does is descend into a mine to bring back some radioactive fuel rock, and he finds an artifact down there that another character needs but wouldn't otherwise get, since he doesn't have the gear & expertise to go down there himself) Thus Dietmar passes, mainly from exhaustion, since he's technically retired from mining (in a radiation-resistant suit of powered armor) but he's the only one at the plant who isn't already too busy, so he goes. i guess you could extract a "noble sacrifice" motif out of that...

But those two who started an argument last week about who had the right to call the shots when they should have been getting ready to receive a charging group of about 100 red-eyed monsters, now THAT was something else! Pure wicked play-Deity-with-these-puppets authorial glee! (already confessed, one of those characters isn't mine -- the other was worked up from an old GM-avatar i used to use, so yes, I knew when i was looking at 'him', "do you realize who you're messing with, buster" and of course he didn't, which made it all that more fitting that he should react the way he did. i'd like to think i'm playing him true to conception -- i guess when it gets into a readable state and others' input starts pouring in, i'll find out, maybe even put his ultimate fate to a vote, should these two ride off into the sunset together, or should she smite his impudent head off?)

As for the theology angle, well... from a gamer's perspective, i'd have to agree! (Hmm... now what other deep thoughts can i toss out here? How about, some down-time character development chatter is allowable, to give the readers a chance to catch their breath and maybe fill in their notes about your world, cast, and motives? There is something to be said for exposition, as more than just the characters need to be filled in...)

s.t.

|_|) <-- fill up those tankards with your choice -- mine, for all the scrupulously honorable young folks out there, is root beer -- and i'm a contemporary of Faramir.
Skoal!

[Starbreeze]

Wow, this thread is getting really deep!

I have to revise my battle scenes and I'm now without the fire that created them, so, could anyone recommend books which have good battle sequences in please? Thanks! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

By the way, thanks Nar for the advice smilies/smile.gif

I suggest thst you try reading The Sword of Shannara. To tell you the truth, I actually felt like I was betraying my loyalty to The Lord of the Rings when I started reading The Sword of Shannara. Yeah, I'm a little addicted to The Lord of the Rings! But I finished everything and re-read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion so what else was I gonna do! Oh well, but the book is actually reeeeeeeeally really good. And it has some fairly good battle scenes. They have some battles every so often. I don't wanna tell you it too much because I don't wanna spoil anything for you but I really suggest that you try that. But it doesn't have the huge battle scenes like Tolkien, as in the battle at the Pellennor fields, but their still battle scenes. I gotta stop myself now before I babble on even more. I just can't help it!!!

[Starbreeze]

Oh thanks Lothiriel, I did read that book some time ago, and forgot about it, thanks for reminding me, I will go back over it and check it out, thanks! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

heh heh, Starbreeze... i could always send you my battle scene... (next chapter started out w/ the party members' kill counts in the header -- insert smilie w/ Gargoyle shades here)

To say nothing of the second big "difference of opinion" those two characters are slated to have later, with live steel, trading insults and choreographed to the music that helped draw it out.

So here's another odd thing for you -- just about every thing i've written has a soundtrack! Given many of Tolkein's poetry-breaks in LOTR & associated tales have been set to music, how do the rest of you find this marriage of the art forms?

Do any of you have music that tends to emerge -- or infiltrate -- your writing?

s.t.

(putting another gold piece in the jukebox)

[Laiedheliel]

Wow, this thread is getting deep! smilies/cool.gif

Apart from being a writer, I am also a singer. The music I write, sing, and listen to is always running through my head, and I draw upon it like a spring of inspiration. Much of my writing is derived from music, from rock to classical, and much of my music is inspired by characters in my writing. It's really cool to see a song emerge centered around one of my characters (even though no one else knows it's about my characters 'cept me), or sometimes I'll hear a song on my stereo that just perfectly encompasses everything I had been attempting to put into words about my character, or even an event.

Some songs make it harder to write, 'cuz the remind me of different things, but if I find a song I can relate to my story, I download it and jam while the ideas come pouring out of my hands, thanx to my stereo.

This is my fave way to write, with good tunes humming out of my speakers, and plotlines dancing to the beat in my head. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Ooh, I'm glad someone brought this up! I always listen to music while I read and stuff (I do tend to use that word a bit much, sorry about that!) but I always listen to music when I read because I find that it helps me concentrate more, which some people find odd. But I usually listen to Nickelback, most likely Curb (one of their albums)or just any one of theirs but I just got the Stone Temple Pilots first album, Core, and #4 on it, No Memory, is so awesome! It's only 1 min. and 20 sec. but the only thing in the song is a guitar playing and a bass I think. He doesn't sing, but it's really very nice to listen to. It kinda puts me in that fantasy world kinda mood, so it makes it more enjoyable to read smilies/smile.gif

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Oh, and your welcome Starbreeze smilies/biggrin.gif I'm only on like page 380 or something, but isn't it such a good book!

[littlemanpoet]

Saxony Tarn, you've got some awesome questions! smilies/smile.gif

By the way, Starbreeze, Stephen Lawhead is a pretty good fantasy writer. You might want to check out his Arthurian series, lots of battles. And his Song of Albion series has smaller battles. Of course, there's way more to those stories and finding the battle scenes would probably become an afterthought until you run into one.....

I listened to a group called Iona to write my third and fourth revisions. There's one largely instrumental Celtic thing they wrote that is really spiritual and dark and it's the theme music for my "tragic young woman" chapter I referred to earlier. I also have a chapter in which I describe the music of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite and Faure's Pavane because my protagonist's fiance is a ballet dancer and they're on a date but during the Firebird Suite a certain fiery haired faerie being shows up (Nar, you'll know what I'm talking about here) and completely distracts my protagonist from his beautiful ballerina bride to be. Yeah, you can probably tell my stuff can drip with romance if I let it. Which I probably do too much. Not in the next rewrite, I promise you.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Mm, theme music. That stuff gets me writing. However, in my latest slump even music is hard to get in the mood to write to. *sighs* But whenever I read or write, I usually listen to the Titanic soundtrack. It has it's own battle music, it's own sad, happy, melancholic music...it works on so many different levels! I used Titanic for LotR. There's this one song where there's a trumpet sounding in the background. That song had to be put on repeat cuz it fit Helm's Deep so well.

Back to my killing off characters thing. I guess I'm not sick of that character. I'm just mad at him for picking on my other characters so much. He's one of the characters that's the complete opposite of another, what IS the term for that!? I know what it is, it's on the tip of my tongue...they're...______ characters...FOIL! Foil characteres! That's it! Whoo! *does happy dance* English comes in handy. ^.^

[Aiwendil]

So here's another odd thing for you -- just about every thing i've written has a soundtrack!

I frequently find myself making up a soundtrack in my head as I'm writing. Actually, I often do the same thing as I'm reading. Once or twice I've actually written music to go with something I'm writing, though I find that when I actually sit down to write the music, it's difficult to make it follow the book. I have great respect for the film composers and their ability not just to write great music but also to keep it in line with the action.

[Saxony Tarn]

well that was great! (thanks LMpoet, this round's on me! |_|) )

somebody else's turn to think of a good topic, my quiver's empty at the moment (excuse me while i go 'round the battlefield scavenging for arrows)

No, wait a minute, let's talk about that one character that's picking on the other one. Foils. Absolutely. Polar opposites, two North ends of a magnet, two bulls locking horns... How do we keep such character tiffs interesting (or at least entertaining) to the reader? (especially if both characters are the same gender, then it's not quite so easy to say, ah ha, i bet those two end up in love by the end of the story! i'm thinking of Mordigan and Sorcha in WILLOW here -- oddly enough, i'd cast Val Kilmer as my smart-arse Elf on the basis of that role. And Grace Jones for the half-Orc, if she's the one who played Zula in the second CONAN flick (Carlton Rex, help me out here) Don't know why, she just seems to fit the specs of 'deeply tanned butch female proficient in opening cans o' whoop-arse')

s.t.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

How about The Lord of the Rings soundtrack? Or does anyone listen to cellos or even bagpipes....? Or is that just me again!

[Thinhyandoiel]

I use the LotR soundtrack every now and again. And bagpipes have a melancholic tone to them that I LOVE to write too. (Heh...yes, my word for the day is melancholic...^.^)

Foil characters. They give so much to the development of one of the themes of my story. Friendship. Also, they're great for comedic relief. Tolkien used Legolas and Gimli for this, and I thought it worked great. My two characters are actually two Elves. One is a scholar, the other is a warrior. It's the warrior that's driving me nuts. smilies/rolleyes.gif They're both of the same gender, and their first argument was over parchment. Yes...parchment. That one wrote itself, and I laughed so hard when I re-read it. "That ones a keeper" I says to meself! ^.^ Heheh. Anyone else have foils in their story? As Saxony Tarn so aptly put it, two North ends of a magnet (I like that one! smilies/smile.gif)

[Saxony Tarn]

Two Elves having a tiff over parchment! Uff da! Thinhyandoiel, that's priceless & i'd probably get a kick out of reading it! Are you planning to post it anywhere (or sell it to a 'zine where we can see it in print?)

As for my smart-arse Elf, he seems to be everybody's foil (with the Dwarf bravely standing in as his straight-man and the half-Orc getting in her one-liners where she can) but is primarily concentrating his razor wit on hazing 'the new guy', that being the one who tried to upstage the party leader in one of my earlier posts. Not that he really needs to, said new guy has let on that he's having enough problems dealing with said party leader, as in, he can stomach playing second banana to some Ranger, but taking orders -- in combat -- from a woman -- even one powerful enough to be able to drop a proverbial game token on him and hit "Continue Game" (or flip him on the pavement of Minas Tirith if he doesn't shape up) -- appears to be more than he can handle. Ah, Boromir, welcome to Purgatory.

("and I tire of having to point out the obvious to you -- you may well be the Captain of the entire armed forces of Gondor, but WE ARE NOT THE ARMY OF GONDOR!!" -- Iarangol Nurborniel, parry and riposte)

That's the wonderful thing about it -- I hadn't planned for them to start arguing then, but it came out, and i liked what i saw and let it stand (in fact, kept refining it) especially since the strong averse reaction to being overruled by an assertive female just seemed so appropriate! (as previously confessed, all that Savage Sword of Conan & such as a child seems to have lent itself masterfully to the occasion)

Which brings me to my next Molotov cocktail, given the amount of Elf Princesses running away to fight like their brothers on the fanfic section here -- anyone have a great example of smashing the expected gender boundaries when creating characters that they'd like to share? (this'll likely be more resonant with the elder members of this thread as the difference was more pronounced in earlier generations)

Alternately, while i'm on the subject of my favorite member of the cast -- which character do you find keeps your interest as the author longer -- a good, pure, competent and capable hero/ine who can triumph over just about anything, or a scaled-down, reasonably pure, good and able character with a few flaws that you can exploit? My vote's always for the latter -- i think they're more interesting (and they certainly keep me more engaged in loading plot complications on them just to see how much they can take before they crack, or reading to see how they get themselves out of mess after mess...)

s.t.

|_|) <-- stoking up on the caffeine now, to go home and write like a demon tonight -- the half-Orc is slated for some camera time. And i guess you could TECHNICALLY say she's Lurtz's mother. i'm grinning in anticipation of some character-revealing conflict-laden dialogue already...

[Thinhyandoiel]

^.^ Yeah, it was funny. The characters, Malithil and Elfal (copyrighted 2002!! smilies/biggrin.gif) were supposed to be good friends, but then I realized that one came from the courts and one came from the protective force of their lands. Instantly it was known to me that they would NOT get along. That argument about parchment came along when they were packing for their journey and Malithil took out some parchment and a quill with a bottle of ink to take with him. Elfal instantly started berating him on the usefulness of such "weapons" and so it carried on from there.
"...and what will you do if we are attacked? Write them a letter?" - Elfal to Malithil
That's just a line from it. I'm thinking of expanding the argument because I just loved it so much.

Hey, Saxony Tarn, what IS the half-Orc. Like, is she half-orc half-human, or is she half-orc half-elf?? I was just wondering on this. Because, if you think about it, it could really go either way. *shrugs* And I do have that story up at fanfiction.net under the originals section. Plus I'm getting some good pointers from some fellow authors here. smilies/wink.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

Thinhyan' -- Skheel's mother was a captured Haradhrim "present" to Saruman from some of his Far Southern allies, and according to her tale, this poor unfortunate became part of the gene pool for his New & Improved Uruk-Hai. I think it amazing but cool that the first character Bor' reaches a level of mutual understanding with in this group turned out to be, well, let's be honest, the mother of the monster that shot him! (Well, Mr. Elf, you're busy being a witty little snob, of course he's going to bond w/ fellow berserker first, even though she's half Orc!) i have no idea if "Skheel" has any meaning in Orcish and don't really care -- that was the name that came with the character, and i'm loath to change it (as i have some of the other characters, as part of a running gag perpetrated on another of them)

i'm having the most fun i've had in a long time writing it; just got to make certain that my Elvish passes muster, so i've managed to enlist a student of it to proof the draft i've got so far.

Can i get a link to your fic so i can read it? It sounds like great fun...

s.t.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Niphredil Baggins]

Hello! that old nuisance Baggins junior has returned to the Barrow-Downs. Thank this thread for my absence. I started that writer's group, we now have nine members, interesting discussions and good texts. This was an advertisement :-).

I just wanted to tell you that I've done a naughty thing: I printed all this thread, all five pages. Made an awful load of paper, though I used the smallest print. Had to do something with my university printquota, and this thread is the best thing I've found in the web for a long time. And now I can read it under an apple-tree. Everything worth anything has to be read under an apple-tree on a sunny day.

[Rimbaud]

Reading the myth of how Newton 'discovered' gravity might change your mind although there is the possibility for delicious irony.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Niphredil Baggins! I forgot you made the group! A thousand thanks! smilies/biggrin.gif

Saxony Tarn, my story, as mentioned earlier, is up at fanfiction.net. Just go up and search for Midnightrogue. It's the only original I have, and if you do read it please keep in mind that that is the VERY FIRST draft and hasn't been edited (officially) yet. smilies/smile.gif Thanks!

[Joy]

I have never done fiction (well, not really.) When I homeschooled, my mother had me write a novel for part of my English credit. I found out that I was no good at fiction, but found that I loved to write poetry and exegesis of Scripture. I have writen two books, neither of which are published at this time, each going through a different Scriptural principle.

Now, I try my hand at fiction again. I am doing a fan-fic to start off with. Maybe later I will branch off into other fiction/fantasy. This one is with the help of 4 of my cousins, ages 11, almost 12, 12 and almost 16.

My main purpose in doing this is to help the boys, 11 and 12, be a team. Two of them are brothers and they fight alot. Also, I hope that this will get them more interested in reading and writing, as the 11 yr old reads at a 2nd grade level and is dyslexic. Maybe this will help them in conflict resolution.

[littlemanpoet]

Does anybody know of any good resources to help Joy out?

The only suggestion that I could think of, is to try your hand at writing additional Narnia adventures, especially if your children are already familiar with them.

Any other thoughts, all you 'dead'?

[Niphredil Baggins]

Thinhyandoiel: Yeap, it's me - Heidi aka Niphredil aka Arwen Imladviel - I've got too many names, I know, but moderating as Niphredil Baggins... well, Niphredil has an odd personality and there are rumours about a miruvor problem... Heidi is at least sensible... Arwen writes the fanfiction, Heidi the original fiction. I haven't got a multiple personality problem, the names are different windows through which I look at the world. Or worlds.

[Saxony Tarn]

Thinhyan -- gotcha, i'll go check it out (maybe give you any suggestions that come to mind in the event that you might someday find them of benefit)

Some wonderful deep discussions going on on these boards -- one lovely one in Books with lots of insight from our very own littlemanpoet debating which of the brothers Denethorsson would make a better leader. (Owing to the nature of MY story-in-progress, i'm -- wisely, i deem -- not even going to touch that topic with a ten-foot lance, not even if it lay by the highway, i'll just stick to my half-Orc, smart-arse Elf, and guilt-laden penitent... Now that i've got a fellow Wight translating Sindarin double-entendres for me, it's really taking off; i'm stoked!)

Keep those great discussions bubbling. Speaking of which, i think my gender-role-smashing question seems to have fallen by the wayside -- anybody have anything to comment on that at all?

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and i'm buyin'...

[Joy]

Right now I am doing a LotR fan-fic, because 3 of them have read the books and all 4 have seen the movie.

Only one of them as read Narnia, and I haven't read but the first 2: Lion,Witch and Wardrobe and The Magicians Nephew.

I am doing all the 2nd-4th Age research and my 16 yr old cousin will help me write our part from the end of 4th A to end of the 6th Age. That is where the boys come in. One is born 467 6th Age and the others are born 33 7th Age. I am having them write their own geneologies and family history. Then in the year 57 of the 7th Age (2002) will will set out on a quest. They each will write thier part, I will correct grammer and spelling or help them in areas of continuity.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hello all, this may be a little out of the line of discussion, but as it comes as a gift, with bow and all, I hope no one will mind. smilies/wink.gif

While writing a short story I realized it was critical to the story for me to really be able to visualize what it's like to fight with a broadsword. So I did my homework, perusing a 19th century text on the subject (I've also a little fencing experience and the insights of the instructor to draw on, et al).

I thought it would be helpful to other writers so I've been writing what I've learned Here in the movie forum, called 'Lessons on Swordsmanship.' (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000712) It's becoming a project in itself, and I'm wondering if I'll ever get to my short story - ha! But one of the things I love about Tolkien was how tangible Middle Earth seemed. It was this kind of attention to detail, the fact that fires don't start in a wind, swamps are filled with bugs, and most of the time outdoors is uncomfortable, that I love dearly.

As far as the half-page to describe a tree (that's not far off actually) it depends on what kind of story you're interested in writing. If the story is really about this world you're describing, the milieu, than sure, go ahead. But it should tell the reader something new.

[Saxony Tarn]

Hey, thanks for that link! i'll go check that thread out now (having enough fight-scenes, sparring bouts and arguments-with-live-steel in my own draft)

s.t.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Niphredil Baggins..ah, the infamous multiple personality disorder. ^-^ Kudos to all three of you! smilies/wink.gif And good luck with the miruvor prob!

Maril, thanks for the link! I have a bit of a problem with battle scenes (psst, I rush them a bit too much) so any and all info on how to use and hold a sword is appreciated! I've held one before, at my uncle's house. I wouldn't scream it aloud but in my mind I was going "ELENDIL!!!!!!!" Heheh. That was fun.

How much research does everyone put into their work? Like, if you need to know of a poison, or of symptoms or animal behaviors, etc. Or, when, say, "inventing" a sickness (ie. Frodo after he got stabbed by the Morgul blade) do you spend that much time on making it realistic? A friend of mine says she doesn't. That because it's HER story, and it's FANTASY, that whatever she says goes. No questions. End of story. I am inclined not to agree. What about everyone else?

[Saxony Tarn]

Ah, Thinhyan' don't get me started on research!

(BTW, found your fanfics, may take me awhile to hack my way through them)

It's always been important for me to be able to feel that i know what i'm talking about (be it at work or when writing) thus i've got boxes of old college class notes, magazine series, old books and other such reference material for just such occasions when i need a little solid-foundation material to lay brickwork for fantasy. The key to good fantasy, after all, is making it so reality-based that your reader can believe that it could be real.

Give you an example, i wrote a story in college about a petroleum geologist trying to sell a marginally profitable oil well to an investor (in a "fantasy" world with modern technology, it should be said) and i had my class texts from a geology class open on my lap, so Matthias knew what he was talking about. No slick marketing hype, just hard facts, which is what this investor wanted to know. And with that (and other reasons that didn't immediately concern him, but the other party's long term investment plans) he sold the well. But if i hadn't had the data to back it up, it wouldn't have come off at all believable.

This is where these threads are worth more than gold -- i'm getting the benefit of others' research and saving myself a lot of brain effort.

s.t.
|_|) <-- have another pint!

No takers on my gender-role-smasher question, huh... okay, guess i'll pick that gauntlet back up, tuck it in my belt, and save it for later (like, when Eowyn makes her debut)

[Naaramare]

I feel almost as if I've missed the bus, but better late than never, except in sky diving, so I'll answer the original question of the thread.
Are any of you writing serious fantasy? If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien? How long have you been working on your story, and why? What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by serious, but I shall assume our ideas meet.

Tolkien, of course, inspires and permeates my work, to a point that I mock myself for it within the story itself. However, I don't think I'm imitative of him, simply because I can't hold the linguistic style that long. It drives me mad to try and write in it, so I eventually give up and become a good deal more colloquial (for me, at least).

So far as plot and form go, my serious fantasies still tend to be more character driven than history driven, so I avoid imitation there. But that's also how I think, so . . .

Drat. I'm being forced of the computer. Oh well, that's my small contribution.

[littlemanpoet]

Six phreeeekin pages! You guys are amazing.

Thankyew Saxony Tarn for the compliment on the other thread. I just hope somebody picks up on it. Nobody has since the last time I checked. That's Boromir versus Faramir, friends. hint hint...

A fellow Wight translating Sindarin double-entendres! That is tooommutch! smilies/biggrin.gif

Hmm now hoo now hoom hum hoom - gender role smashing? Hoom hum now, I don't recall that in any of the lists. Let's see now, hoom, hum, hoomty toom toomty tum - well now, it seems I have a knack for well defined, strong women. One is as androgynous as can be, sexy, a dark anima figure, one of the smartest characters, and dominant. Make that domineering. With her mind and her will, and sometimes with her body. Not that I get graphic, but power is power if ya know wut I meen. (Party's messin' with my hed still).

Joy, you don't need any help. I'm surprised you don't have other homeschooled parents' kids beating a path to your door. I think once you've put the finishing touches on the whole project you ought to write it up and get published in the homeschooling lesson series market. I hear it's growing like maples in may.

Thanks, Maril. One must be careful about how much one puts in one's story about what you know. Just last October I had one scene where I had seven against seven characters, the object of the fight being a stolen power-sword, and I spent days random generating every six seconds of absolutely everybody's movements, something like three minutes' worth. I wrote up the battle scene, throwing out about 95 percent of what I'd generated, showed it to my writers' group, and their comments, to a reader, were, way too much detail. I'm getting lost in it.

They were right. The most important thing in any scene, be it battle or whatever, is make the reader feel it. Show the reader, don't tell the reader. I read that Stephen R. Donaldson never did any research for his monster Covenant series, but imagined everything for himself. I'm not saying that that's the right way, but it seems to have worked for him. Also, we all know a heck of a lot about a whole lot of stuff just by virtue of seeing all the action movies, reading all the comics, all the television shows, where they really give you the detail. I have, however, done research into flora and fauna for the latitude and climate in which my story takes place. And animals. And there's a whole lot I've learned over the years that makes its way into my story too, about castles, feudalism, how streams flow, what's in burial mounds, customs of the Anglo-Saxons, early Celts, you name it. It's all making its way in - as appropriate.
Just like Tolkien. Now that's one thing anybody should want to imitate, I'd say.

And welcome, Naaramare. Hope to see more posts from you. I suggest that you spend some time with this thread and read all the pages. Lots of good stuff.

As far as character driven, I'm convinced that the best stories ARE character driven, AS WELL as plot driven. Don't we all love Frodo and Sam? and Faramir? and (in that sniveling way we all secretly have) Gollum?

smilies/evil.gif

[Starbreeze]

Thanks so much for the link Maril!

How much research does everyone put into their work? Like, if you need to know of a poison, or of symptoms or animal behaviors, etc. Or, when, say, "inventing" a sickness (ie. Frodo after he got stabbed by the Morgul blade) do you spend that much time on making it realistic? A friend of mine says she doesn't. That because it's HER story, and it's FANTASY, that whatever she says goes. No questions. End of story. I am inclined not to agree. What about everyone else?

Um, research...well, lets just say that I spend more time on research than on my story, but that's half the fun! I love researching, I hope to persue it as a career, and it adds extra enjoyment to my story. I also love to learn, so investigating herbs, or celtic mythology, or medicine through the ages, or clothing, is really satisfying.
I think that in fantasy, to make it really good, you need to make it real, not just a superficial world that vanishes when you put down the book, it has to come alive, and live on past the pages, in the inaginations of real people, then it becomes real, then you have created real fantasy.
Did you ever hear the quote "Fantasy is a place"? I hope to reach that place in my writing, and I won't be satisfied until I do.
Going back to what little man poet said about the levels of writing - well, to make good fantasy, level 5 or 6, you need detail and you need to make it real - without those factors its just another book - I would not be happy if people saw my work in that way.
Tolkien's books are not 'just another book', they are real - as we can see from the number of members on this board, and on others.
I have to make my world real for me. I have to make it so that I can escape there when I write - then I know that when people read it they will escape too. I feel that the main purpose of fantasy is to enable the reader to escape, if I can't achieve that, not least for myself, then it needs more.
Well, I was going to write more, but I guess I have already repeated my self too much and I don't want complaints that people have died of boredom, I don't want that many deaths on my hands! smilies/wink.gif

Welcome Naaramare, to the Downs! Post lots and enjoy being dead!
smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

No, Thank YOU, littleman -- your randomly generated six-second-segment story reminds me of some writing i did for my game -- TESTING THE RULES by using them to influence how the plot moved depending on the results from each character's actions.

Really helped me visualize them, but would certainly have to be for a VERY targeted reader audience.

And as far as "that other thread", well, heh heh, until i can come up with an airtight defense for why I'd lay MY sword at the feet of King Boromir, i'm staying off that topic! (Reason number one, the man is definately motivated! No slacker loafing around in a banana republic here. Revitalized economy (war's good for it, ya know!) resurgent national pride... he'd probably even make darned sure the trains ran on time, assuming Gondor ever got to that level of tech -- wait a second, i said i'd stay off that topic... Quick, i'm getting entrenched, somebody send Gwaihir to airlift me out!!!)

And the Sindarin double-entendres, well... when i get the entire story "downloaded" from my brain and into beta draft at the very least, i can probably toss the opening three bits onto the Downs and see what rises from its grave to check it out. Just last night it came up with another title for itself, even more fitting and tying in nicely with the Sindarin puns (which have had me rolling and pounding the floor, just like the smart-arse Elf who delivers 'em)

For another bit of amusement, check out The Movies -- FOTR Drinking Game thread. i've just added the Gamer's Edition sub-rules.

s.t.

|_|) <-- Skoal!

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Joy]

Littlemanpoet, that is a great idea, although I am not a homeschooling parent - I have no children! smilies/smile.gif

Though, one of my cousins, the 16 yr old, might be homeschooling next yr. She will be in the 9th grade. She was not doing very well in public school, there were too many in her class, 58 total. Last yr she went to a private school, a total of 12 in the whole school! Well, the school will be closing this yr as the teacher for the whole high school is pregnant.

I have talked with her mother and her father, and they both agree that she will be able to do this, if I consent to be the teacher/tutor. I have a BA in Biblical Studies, BA in Education with a foriegn lanuage concentration, a AS in Psychology and an AS in Computer Science.

Hopefully, this will open the door for my other cousins to be homeschooled, as they are being passed by in the system. The 11 yr old, Matt, is in Spec Ed and is reverting to more childish behaviors.

But to keep this on the topic of Tolkien, I have noticed that since the other boys, almost 12 and 12, have read the Hobbit and LotR, they have been more encouraging to Matt and I have noticed that they seem more concerned over his well being.

I explained to them that in a way, we are all on a quest, the quest of life. It takes each person to contribute to the completion of the task. We can either pull each other down or help each other, as Sam did for Frodo. I seem to use Sam and Frodo or Gandalf as a basis of correction for them, since they accept these characters. Then I use a principal here to relate to a foudational principle of the Scripture.

Sorry to ramble. Just spent the whole afternoon with Matt. We talked about the story that is in progess and how we can use this story to relate to one another in real life. It has been an interesting day to say the least. Also, will be spending much of tomorrow with him.

[Naaramare]

How much research does everyone put into their work?

Oh Goddess. x.x More than I ever thought I would. My parents, a doctor and a Crown Counsel, are getting somewhat annoyed with my constant questions ("what does a concussion actually entail? can you have a mildly serious headwound without a concussion? what kind of legal system would be in place in a medieval setting?" ad nauseum) and I have sixteen different encycolpaedias bookmarked in my favourites.

As for personal research in the tunes of creating new illnesses/magical systems/what have you, I've also done extensive work, down to the naming systems of my elves (I love my elves. When I don't want to eradicate the whole race of them). I think the idea "it's my story/fantasy, I don't have to" is rank idiocy. You have to stay consistant in your own world; there has to be a reason for every rhyme and a cause for every effect. Me being the perfectionist I am, I'd rather have those be realistic causes for the effects.

[Starbreeze]

I think the idea "it's my story/fantasy, I don't have to" is rank idiocy. You have to stay consistant in your own world; there has to be a reason for every rhyme and a cause for every effect. Me being the perfectionist I am, I'd rather have those be realistic causes for the effects.

Well said! I agree totally!

[Thinhyandoiel]

I understand about the "20 question time!" thing. My parents are annoyed, too, though they're not a doctor or a lawyer. My aunt, however, is a physical therapist, so there's ups in that area. But yeah, in one my story, a character falls off a roof and breaks a few ribs. I have NO idea what kind of problems that would give someone, so I turned to my parents. Of course, they're so suspicious it always ends up with "Why? Are you planning on breaking someone's ribs?" smilies/rolleyes.gif Ai-yai-yai.

Saxony Tarn, you found them? Uh...*shifty eyes* Please, uhm, ignore the two BSB fics, as I was in a very Mary-Sue-ish stage at that time...heh...*hides* smilies/biggrin.gif

Oh, and hey! We did reach six pages! Go us! *proceeds to run around the thread, giving everyone a high-five* "Ahem" I am sane, really!"

But back to the research thing. I agree with what you said Naaramare, about staying consistent in your own world. I know Tolkien did. I mean the athelas plant, it always had the same characteristics. Always. It had a sweet odor, that filled the room, and healing powers. King's Foil, to Sam, a common weed. No where did we see Tolkien magically insert that the flower had love-potion powers as well. He was consistent. The same goes with the history of Middle-Earth. He has a TIMELINE in the Appendixes for crying out loud! And family trees! An index of all the names mentioned in the books. How TIME-CONSUMING that must have been! smilies/eek.gif Kinda...intimidates you, eh? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Naaramare]

"Why? Are you planning on breaking someone's ribs?"

Hehe. Mine can be really obscure. My heroine has some abilities with fire, so there's questions like "how badly would I have to burn--I mean really, fire, burn--the inside of someone's lungs to kill them?" at which point I get the oddest looks.

Sane? Why on Middle Earth would one want to be sane? :: shudders:: Perish the thought!

Tolkien's obsessive exhaustive detail intimidates me . . .mostly cuz I can see myself doing the same. >< Ye Gods above and below. . .

[Saxony Tarn]

Yeah, go us! (tapping pints for everyone, of your favorite beverage, be it hard or soft)

re: Exhaustive Research -- can't tell you how helpful Tolkein's exhaustive research & detail is when you're trying to chronicle your own characters (or his) lightly skipping carefree & barefoot through his world. Just last night i was checking to see what day the severed heads came flying over the walls. Oops -- day before the party arrived -- meaning that i have to make a reference to a few in the street as they pass, and can't have them come flying over now that they're there. (MUST leave major plot pivot points intact...!!)

six pages -- who's for going for seven?

s.t.

|_|) <-- pints all around!
(drink up, Merry!)

[Starbreeze]

Cool, 6 pages, thought at no point did I realise that it was a competition...

Last night I spent 6 hours, staying up till 4 in the morning, researching herbs and their healing properties - but did not find anything. Could I be so rash as to ask if anyone knows any herbs that slow blood loss or aid blood clotting? Thanx.

[Saxony Tarn]

Starbreeze -- i can help you there, but would need the weekend to consult some books. i have several herbal references & a few more in friends' libraries.

i can probably also recommend you a few websites from some magazines that form part of my library -- depends on whether you need this for a civilized alchemist healer or a backwoods indigenous-tribe healer.

e-mail me & i'll see what i can dig up for you over the holiday -- saxonytarn@aol.com

|_|) <-- pint of your favorite soda for you

s.t.

[Naaramare]

(MUST leave major plot pivot points intact...!!)


Ugh. I feel your pain. I ended up having to go back and erase twenty five pages (twenty five!!!) because I discovered I'd made a horrific inconsistancy.

I think I cried.

[Starbreeze]

Oh no Naaramare, thats bad! Poor thing! Thankful to say that has never happened to me yet!

Thanks Saxony!

[littlemanpoet]

Speaking of plot inconsistency (and this is NOT a competition, just hard luck), I have a particularly bad one.

I'm totally rethinking my entire story. I've had a warm place in my heart for the Nordic mythos and Anglo-Saxon, and so I've written all that into my story. But I've started admitting to myself that the very first image I had in mind for this thing, way back
in '86, took place in the hidden recesses of Wales. I don't know why it was there, but there it was. And I've been ignoring that key fact to the peril of the story in terms of inner INconsistency of reality for fifteen <bleeping> years. Moral: DO NOT IGNORE YOUR DREAMS. Little Celtic facts have been burgeoning up from the deep recesses in
spite of my best efforts to tame them, such as the name of the primary castle/abode of the faerie protagonists, which is Glimhoth
Caer. Now, how Celtic can you get? I've tried Germanic alternatives, but they just will not do. And my primary faerie being is more like the Celtic goddess Medb than anything in the Nordic mythos. So I've got this basically Celtic mythic thing going that I've been trying to force into a Germanic framework and it's no wonder I've been having such trouble!

I have a professor of Anglo-Saxon as a primary background character and I have all these characters taking the course, but now I wonder why? And if not that, what then -inner consistency realistically? Augh! Make them graduate students instead of undergrad? Why? I don't know. And so it goes... Maybe another 15 years and I'll have something figured out.
smilies/eek.gif

[Laiedheliel]

Hmm, I haven't been here for a while. Six pages, kudos to us!

Plot inconsistancies...hum, hoom, what a sad, evil topic to bring up in a nice thread like this one. Being as we're not competing, I have completely re-written the entire history of my world and had to change a thousand little details to keep the plot consistant, and my main character's personality had to change to fit the only plausable reasons she could be where she was and why she was there, and this has all happened during finals week. *Sigh*, pass the caffine.

I think the idea "it's my story/fantasy, I don't have to" is rank idiocy. You have to stay consistant in your own world; there has to be a reason for every rhyme and a cause for every effect. Me being the perfectionist I am, I'd rather have those be realistic causes for the effects.

Right on! Note what is said above. Completely rewritten, and this time I had to reasearch six or seven different mythos and languages on which to base my six or seven race of the world I've made. Perfectionist lives here, no arguments. Fantasy is so widely accepted because it is so realistic. The fantasy books worth reading all have that little attention to every concievable detail, the tangiblity that every story requires to be, as Starbreeze said, not just another book. I think that's why during finals week I have research Nordic, Egyption (sp?), Celtic, and various other cultures until the wee hours of the morn just so I didn't drive my self to something desprate. smilies/evil.gif I'm my own worst enemy.

Gender boundries, ST: consider them smashed. My story's main character is a no bull-crap sword fighter/archer with a wit and mind to match. Thus, she encounters big problems with the military commanders and the members of her battilion. Hehe, she's both my favorite and most difficult character to write, for I feel it neccessary to keep her away from being just another sheild-maiden, or seeming somewhat 'common' to what we have become used to in fantasy stories. She has a varied conscience, usually does things only for the reward (but will do certain things 'free of charge' and has an odd definition of reward, like food and lodging or new clothes [long story]), and can sometimes prover herself to be a little scared by the events unfolding around her. Satisfied, ST?

*This novel written by Laie, who has slunk over into the corner after her hour long ramble/outburst in search of a diet Pepsi or some other source of caffine*

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Laiedheliel ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Absolutely, Laei -- i think you're the only one who took up that challenge, although LMP might have commented on it a bit... Glad to see you're back!

Now i'm going to throw the other glove out -- anyone got any MALE characters who take delight in stretching other characters' -- and readers' -- perceptions of what men should be?

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

Well ya know, as far as I can tell there are only two choices: masculine or feminine (sp?). Every one of my women have masculine traits and every one of my men have feminine traits, to varying degrees. None of them acts neuter, whatever that might be. Or is there something else you're getting at, ST?

[Naaramare]

anyone got any MALE characters who take delight in stretching other characters' -- and readers' -- perceptions of what men should be?

Well, this depends, really. Mostly on whether you think it's okay for men to wear dresses, makeup and sleep with other men on random days of the week and then act like perfectly ordinary masculine fellows (other than the fact that they still prefer men over women) on other days.

For some reason, my English teachers choked on that one . . .

[Laiedheliel]

*Laie takes a deep breath and again steps up to the plate* You know, S.T., you have a knack for this!

Male characters, my favorite ones to write. There is another character in the same story, actually opposite (sp?) the shield-maiden mentioned above, who is very set in his ways and not afraid to speak up about others'. While the shield-maiden combats them with wit and intelligence, he just says what's on his mind, though he's smart, without thinking of the consequnces. His view of masculinity (sp?) is very similar to the Norse men of old (my inspiration for his race, actually), and often runs into 'pointless' disputes with other soldiers about honor and chivalry. This character is also where most of my humor comes from, because he is very blunt and uninhibited. At the same time, he manages to be compassionate (or as compassionate as 'hillbred barbarians' get) and retain some traces of feminine traits. I think most of my characters end up like littleman's - both feminine and masculine in nature, though most lean to one side or the other (obviously). smilies/biggrin.gif

Now I had better stop before my mom catches me on the computer, again...O yeah, I almost forgot - satisfied with this one, S.T.? smilies/wink.gif

[Thinhyandoiel]

anyone got any MALE characters who take delight in stretching other characters' -- and readers' -- perceptions of what men should be?


Uhm, yes. I've mentioned this character before, the one who likes to pick on the my scholarly Elf. This character, who is also an Elf, is a warrior of his realm. He's been brought up with a bow in one hand, a sword in the other, so to speak. So, when my scholar joins the party, he takes delight in trying to show my scholar-Elf how to "truly" fight, how to pack (parchment is a no-no and a worthless "weapon") and so on. They're both male, but my scholar has his own strengths, healing being one of them.

[Saxony Tarn]

Why thank you Laie -- i thought so! (more, more, i'm still not satisfied... -- T. Lehrer)

Well, on the surface, that was meant to be a muster call for any male characters who didn't toe the manly-man party line to shout out and be proud. While i have in the course of writing at least one tale had a character come out of the closet to me, that precise degree wasn't quite where i was aiming... (okay. yet!! B) )

But hey, we're trying to go for seven pages here, so any humble thing i can do to stimulate discussion! Hmm... let's see... what else haven't we covered yet? Anybody else got a hot topic?

:: dead silence as Wights sip their drinks ::

Okay, here's one that my Elvish consultant and brave, valiant alpha proof reader and i have been wrangling with, since she is a self-confessed skeptic of powerful magic effects -- how do you handle Magic? Phenomenal Extrasensory mental Powers? Divine Intervention? Or some of the stuff in the last book of LOTR that struck me as a wee bit too Deus Ex Machina -- like Aragorn healing people by blowing Kingsfoil tea steam in their faces? i don't know... i still need a little more nuts-and-bolts to be underpinning that. ("Because he's the King" is not sufficient reason)

Bait's cast -- who'll bite?

s.t.

|_|) <-- drink up!

[Aragorn_the_Ranger]

Okay, one thing to say...is good luck and keep going, especially to those ppl creating languages.
Literature is one of my favourites as well, and i've had ideas for stories not neccesarily fantasy, but i did have one idea which i scrapped. At the moment i'm working on a Tolkien related story which I've been working on for a while with nothing yet written down. Though I only do it for myself, no money or even to be noticed...it's something you do for your own selfbeing. My story is/will be set in the time when Aragorn served as Thorongil with GOndor and Rohan. Good luck to everyone though and keep trying

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, I'll bite

twice. smilies/wink.gif

My protagonist's step-brother is the pawn of the villains. He is weak, whiny, vindictive, prideful, and self-absorbed. He is the one who gets totally overmatched by my strong female charater; it's a mentor/mentee relationship based on an astrological 'society' that purports to use the ancient sciences. So he is the feminine one (in a bad sense I guess) who passively accepts the leadership of the masculine power-woman.

The Society for the sciences of antiquity is, of course, an obfuscating renaissance-style magicians' coven which purports to be using real science that has lost acceptance. They say that not the stars, but the planets and moon and sun, are what influence us, and each magician has an affinity with one particular planet's influence. I'd go into specifics but I'm a little afraid of idea-theft. The thing is, in my story the stuff actually does work, but the powersource behind the efficacious spells and what-not are actually malevolent (and in some cases neutral or benevolent) entities that allow the magicians to wield their power for their own purposes, reeling them in to slavery in some cases. The moon should be obvious, the influence of which is lunacy. I have a couple insane magicians whose powers are strong, and therefore they are dangerous.
That's the "our world" magic.

Faerie magic is different, though related. The immortals tend to have areas of extra-human capability according to elemental categories: fire, earth, air, etc. - plus all the typical deity-oriented powers of mythology. This is far more organic and follows after the like of Aragorn, whose healing ability did not come from his kingship but from his elvish/numenorean background - remember, his line ran pure and he was taught by Elrond. Okay, I've rambled long enough.

[Naaramare]

how do you handle Magic?

Personally, my magic follows definite laws, many of which are the same as any other kind of energy--cannot be created or destroyed, etc--and constant. I have two specific kinds of magic: one is the kind my elves, mages and "psychics" use, which is quite easily defined, explained, enacted on (if one has the talent) and is somewhat akin to solar or hydro-energy.

The second is probably not quite magic. It's the kind that's acted on through prayer, meditation, etc. It is difficult to predict, often overlooked, impossible to study and quantify and thus, rather subjective. ^^ Same as prayer in real life: did you pass your exam because you prayed or because you studied/got lucky? Within my story, a Wiccan's magick falls under this category.

The only thing that's definite about the second kind of magic is that it fogs and obscures the power flows of "normal" magic in it's direct area.

[Saxony Tarn]

Welcome to the thread, Aragorn, and let us know if you're going to post that tale here so the rest of us fiction-hungry Wights can read it! B) (paranoid-Denethor conspiracy theorists, unite? okay, so i've got a murder plot to solve in the D&D game i'm playing in tonight, and i'm just getting warmed up! B) )

looks like i may have sparked another good one with my question about magic, so, w/ hand on stack of holy texts guaranteeing LMP and others that there will be no idea theft here... (in fact it will be prosecuted, by not serving the offenders any more drinks!)

most of the paranormal effects in my project, so far, have been what in FRPG terms would be called "psionic" or mental powers. In the game that i run (with its 2" thick house rules hacked up from every game i've played in the past 25 years) the special effects fall into three main groups:

1) Hermetic Magic, where the energy is nearly all external to the manipulator (most Classical magical texts making use of the alchemical principles, astrology, demon summoning, punishing, and banishing, and general smoke and flashes of light fit here),
2) Shamanic Magic, sort of the crossover point, where the manipulator is often in a trance state (indigenous tribal magic from Siberia to Africa and points westward, often very close to religion, and spirits dealt with are more often friendly and helpful, or at least not overtly hostile)
3) Psionic paranormal ability, AKA Talent, where the energy is nearly all internal to the manipulator and manifest outward (Uri Geller bending keys, but for real, Edgar Cayce's paranormal healing talents, others) In the game as well as in the story, certain Talents tend to show up more frequently in certain races, for example, all Elves who can trace their lineage to Valimar have the potential to be able to walk on snow...

Anything outside of those three is considered to be the province of Deity-class entities.

Now, if i wanted to be singlehandedly responsible for pushing us to seven pages, i'd expound more on the nature of energy storing devices, spell focuses (such as a priest's holy symbol or shaman's animal-totem fetish) and other such things, however, i'm just going to thank LMP for reminding me about Aragorn's healing Talent being pretty much that -- a function of heritage. In which case i would now submit, wouldn't anyone else up in Arnor be able to duplicate the effects?
What about any remaining Numenorian blood down South? Or is all they can do with it make potpourri and cure headaches? It would seem to me that if it's a function of the plant, then anyone could use it, but if it's a function of Aragorn, then he should need the plant for a specific non-property-related reason -- thus the alternate explanation i was working on, which gave him the specific inherent power, but in order to use it, he needed to smell fresh kingsfoil tea (sort of like the Mage game from White Wolf -- one i, alas, have not played yet) thus the plant would be a "focus" -- like a Druid of yore w/ sacred mistletoe. Otherwise, i have a hard time getting it past my "does not compute" sensors.

s.t.

|_|) <-- Keep those discussions coming -- i'll keep filling the mugs!

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[littlemanpoet]

Biting that bait again! smilies/smile.gif

I guess I see four merging threads in Aragorn's healing.
1) the virtue of the athelas, aka king's foil; Faramir, another pure Numenorean, gives Frodo and Sam walking sticks that come from a wood that has a virtue associated with it. So there's something in the plant itself. No doubt it comes from Yavanna.
2) Numenorean descent of Aragorn - purity of the blood line - remember, he comes from Elendil, the purest of the king's line if you take it through all the eldest children of the kings from Elros onward.
3) He learned from Elrond, as a foster-son, really. So being half-elven from way back anyway (Elros), of pure lineage, learning from the Elves, gives him additional capability.
4) There is a prophecy involved; the nature of prophecy is fulfillment. In a sense, destiny gets involved in this. So maybe that's additional efficaciousness.

That's how it looks from my vantage point. So it's not just his numenoreanness, nor just Elrond's influence, nor just the athelas.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Aragorn_the_Ranger]

Hey thanx Saxony Tarn....
as soon as i get most of the story done i'll add it to the fan-fic.
Denethor conspiracy...paranoid?

[Niphredil Baggins]

Plot inconstancies? I had a serious problem of style inconstancies with my novel (Dremette), and still do: one timeline is mythical-allegorical, another is adventure-character growth-philosophical. I've solved the prob in theory by turning the myth-allegory part into a story inside the story, one that a protagonist hears from her tutor. Also, I had a similar prob with another story, the Crystal Heart, where one chapter is like from a children's fairy tale and the rest has a mythic air- like a chapter of Narnia in the middle of the Silmarillion. Not as good, mind you. Without littlemanpoet and our group I wouldn't have noticed. Of course, sometimes such differences can be turned to an advantage, for instance displaying different character's points of view. Not so in my story, so I'll have to make changes.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Magic? smilies/biggrin.gif How do I handle it? Well, in my story, only Elves can use it. Using one or two Elvish 'command' words. At first, I debated with myself about giving them some of these powers, but then I came to the conclusion that they NEEDED these powers. I'm quite sure how to explain it. At first, the only 'magic' they had was the ability to change the colour of their eyes. At will or no, their eyes act like a sort of mood ring, with colours for certain emotions or thoughts (blue for curiousity, green for happiness or joy, red for anger), and can also determine how sharp their vision is. (White for misty conditions, black for night, blue for daytime etc.) Also, my Elves have the ability to communicate with eachother telepathically. The reason for this is, in the very beginning of my world, Elves had no oral abilities, that was how they communicated daily. But then one of the "gods" came down and gifted them with song, thus giving them their own language. But they still held onto their old way of communication for private use.

Now...
Aragorn's athelas? Well, let's see. Kingsfoil was brought to Middle-Earth by Numenor, and I somehow got the conclusion that maybe it was a gift from the Valar or the Elves. Because of that, I somehow got the conclusion that only one with Numenorean blood could awaken those hidden powers in the supposed 'weed'. Also, as LMP said, he's got the elvish blood in him, and was taught by Elrond, renowned for his healing abilities. But, now that you mention it, I guess it could be seen as Deus Ex Machina. If, in their reasoning, they left out the "because he's King" and just left the plant with it's own healing abilities, it would sound just fine. But, then again, the "because he's King" sort of brings back the old mystique behind Aragorn's bloodline, for me at least. So I actually like the "because he's King" but-one-could-expand-on-that-just-a-bit. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

Thinhyan' -- interesting ideas -- i've read more than one story with telepathic Elves (are you familiar with ElfQuest, a comic book and later graphic novel series begetting several spinoffs, by the team of Wendy & Richard Pini? i grew up w/ that, you could say it shaped some of my fantasy outlook)

as for the King and his Foil, i'm going to stick with mine, worked up from the text made by the folks who made Middle-Earth the FRPG and say that it has powers anyone can use, but the King can get more out of it (the 'forgotten' part of the lore) which suggests to me that it's an innate part of the kingship and the "kingsfoil" gets that name because the king uses it as a focus (like a Native American uses his sage smudge bundle, perhaps) The Tourists in this tale, of course, hear this, compare it with herbs they know, and conclude it's some local variety of hyssop, and i rather liked the Biblical angle that could be inferred from that, so... when i get it done, i'll see how it flies.

Keep it up, gang, we've got to be pretty close to page #7!!!

s.t.

[Laiedheliel]

Magic so far has been a toughie for me, especially since I just started writing the history of my 'world'. I want it to be able to follow rules without it copying too much from other stories/ideas. There are somethings that just have to overlap, like the type of power a deity would have. Most of the magicks that take place in my world have a close relation with music, such as a song having the same capabilites that a spell might. Symbols also have a big role, like runes, charms, pendants, 'coat of arms', etc. One in my world would need discipline in both mind and body to work magicks (and would need to be able to carry a tune!).

I'm staying about forty feet away from the Aragorn disscussion-I have my own theories and are quite happy with them just the way they are.

[Saxony Tarn]

Laie -- that sounds cool. i think you'd probably like my RPG if you lived anywhere within a 50-mile radius of me (which you probably don't) and had nothing to do one Saturday evening a month, we've got magic songs and runecharms a'plenty...

(guess you could say great minds think alike?)

and 40 feet is a safe distance away...

|_|) <-- a magic drinking song for you!

s.t.

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Nar]

Naaramare: I like your second type 'lateral magic' & I like the way it tangles up the first-- that's interesting.

Aragorn hope you do post your Thorongil story-- I'd like to read it.

Saxony Tarn, interesting taxonomy of magic. Oh yes, I liked ElfQuest.

Laiedheliel, I like your music angle. Someone on another thread mentioned modern dissonance vs classical: do you see different schools of magic? Could dissonant magic ever be good?

Littlemanpoet-- so they get the little bro? Say it isn't so! (although I suspected as much) He gets extracted, right? No, don't tell me. I want to read it! I've got a soft spot for him-- I tutor for (something of a) living, and there's some very sorrowful kids-- oh, would I like to be able to blow Aethelas steam in their faces 'Hey, you're curling the math pages.' 'Nevermind, just breathe, kiddo, breathe!'

I think Aethelas opens a way to a good part of the other side, hence 'smell sweet when bruised' for anyone, and Aragorn with bloodline, strong spirit and training can actually go through and get the wandering soul back instead of just catching a breeze or two from the other side.

Saxony Tarn, on the gender boundaries, I've just created this monster so fearsome I have to hide under the desk and type from there to get him onscreen, and oddly enough, he's male with weirdly feminine feet-- nothing else is feminine, just the feet. I don't think it's going in the scene, though, my heroine's about to fend him off with a smashed pickle jar (don't ask) so she won't be looking at his tiny feet. She's looking at his teeth! No doubt the feet'll turn up later.

Anybody want to share favorite monsters? Traditional or just hints of ones you've invented? Do you like them intelligent & seductivly articulate like Saruman or just big ugly and hungry? Or big beautiful & wild like dragons?

[Naaramare]

Naaramare: I like your second type 'lateral magic' & I like the way it tangles up the first-- that's interesting.

I'm glad you liked it. It's mostly CS Lewis' fault, actually . . ."The Screwtape Letters." Wherein he makes some comments on prayer. The oddest things stick in my mind when it comes to story writing.

[ edit ] Go me, I jumped us to seven pages. ::is amused:: [ /edit ]

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Naaramare ]

[Maikadilwen]

PAGE 7!!!!!!!!! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
Anybody want to share favorite monsters?
I have a weakness for dragons. They're simply adorable. In my story though, dragons are mostly remembered in songs and legends. But who knows, maybe one will stick out it's head and say BOO! But I don't find dragons scary. In my story, the scariest "monster" can actually not be seen. It's just like a sort of darkness. Pure evil. You can't see it like you can see dragons or devils or whatever, but you can definitely feel it, and if it surrounds you long enough, it will not only corrupt and destroy your mind, but also your body. That's what I find scary. Things that can't be hit or wounded. At least a dragon can be slain and killed, right?

[Starbreeze]

Anybody want to share favorite monsters?

I have created several of the creatures in my story. Most of them are still on the drawing board (I draw them in full detail before I write about them) but one creature, which I particularly like is called the Woral. It is a Wyrm like creature - long and thin, covered in fine scales, with a thin, almost horselike head, and ram's horn. It has no wings but rather 'swims' through the air.

I wish I had time to write more, but I should be revising and I'm feeling guilty, so I'd better go.

[Lila Bramble]

Aye, I write fanfiction with weaving of my own fictional plots and characters along with Tokien's great worlds and races. I am the author of 'Master of the Red Pearl', posted here, and admire Tolkien greatly.

[Starbreeze]

Hello Lila!

*sings* We Welcome you to Munchkin - um I mean Barrow Downs, fa la la la la la la la...oh, I'll be quiet now shall I? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Naaramare]

Anybody want to share favorite monsters?

Why, certainly. I'm partial to dragons, ki-rin and phoenixes. Dragons, well . . .that's always obvious, isn't it? :: points to her decorated bedroom:: Ahem. ^^ They're big, pretty and no one messes with them.

Phoenixes: partly because of the spiritual theme in the rebirth, and partly just because they've become irremovably linked to the heroine of my monster ( er . . .novel, right, not monster). Thus, they've become part of my ideals.

Ki-rin, because I've always liked unicorns, but the Western ones are insipid, and far too concerned with young girls' sex lives.

[littlemanpoet]

Monsters:

I have just two dragons - one evil and the other - we're not sure yet...

There are winged unicorns in my faerie world,
and 'cloud mariners' - they are humanoid and ride at the helm of the clouds, bringing rain where it's needed in faerie. Problem is, some have been made evil and bring only ruin wherever they go.

All the evil broods manifest themselves as suits their nature, so I have werewolves, serpents, were-boars, were-what-have-you...

The good faeries also manifest themselves as suits their nature, so I have a phoenix/firebird (yes, I know you know what I'm talking about, Nar and Niphredil and Thinyan and dragongirl smilies/biggrin.gif ), Cernunnos the Celtic stag god, Boltarin the pictish boar god, and many others...

Question for y'all: how do you use your monsters - as foils for the hero/heroine? in unexpected ways?

By the way, Nar, my dragons are geniuses. Clever, mysterious, leaders of armies. My winged unicorns communicate by placing pictures in the minds of others rather than by words. They are my most spiritual monsters. (You folks form 'fww', I feel like I'm giving away too much! smilies/eek.gif )

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Actually, I've heard of ElfQuest, and have wanted to read it for a long time now, but I can't find it, so no, I haven't read it. The only fantasy sort of novels I have read are pretty much limited to Tolkiens works and a few unheard of novels. How unheard of? Has anyone heard of "Urshurak" by the Hildebrandt Brothers? I haven't found a single person who has. *shrugs*

As for the athelas. I think we have similar ideas there, s.t, I just have trouble communicating mine. I read yours and I was like "isn't that what I just said?" but then I reread mine and I realized that nope, I said something a bit different. I do believe that the athelas has healing powers that anyone can use, I just think that so far only those of Elven or Numenorean blood know how to use them. Bah. I'm really bad at explaining things, esp. things from my own head. Sorry! smilies/tongue.gif

[Thinhyandoiel]

7 pages!! Go us!!

Monsters? Well, obviously the dragon is a popular candidate for this category. I have a lizard-dragon-like monster in my story. It is rumored to be descended of dragons in my world; but all the true-blooded dragons had died out during the First Darkness. My original name for this monster was Luksa, but I didn't quite like it and changed it to Nucran. Later on, I use werewolves. So far those are my only two "monsters" I use. Unless you count the mist, which is a monster itself for what it holds.

how do you use your monsters - as foils for the hero/heroine? in unexpected ways?

The werewolves I guess fit in that category. Because the leader of a pack of werewolves that sack a peaceful town was the brother of one of my main characters, there's dilemna. (ooh! smilies/eek.gif ) He was what one of the heroes looked up to, as a model soldier, and seeing what he becomes, he feels let down sort of. Disillusioned.

LMP, giving away too much? Well, maybe. smilies/wink.gif I know the phoenix, the rest I haven't seen yet, so I can only guess! Though, I am eagerly awaiting more!! smilies/biggrin.gif

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]

[Starbreeze]

My winged unicorns communicate by placing pictures in the minds of others rather than by words.

That sounds a lot like Anne McCaffery's Unicorn People from the Acorna series.

Question for y'all: how do you use your monsters

Well, the Worals are an ancient race and are angry about the damage the humans have done to the land they once lived in, with the dragons. The dragons have now left, along with the elves and other magical creatures because of this damage and the Worals are doing everything within their power to destroy the world the humans have built. The worals don't actually have anything to do with the people the story follows, but their actions cause problems for those people, for example, they come across famine when a band of Worals destroy an entire crop, and they are also seen as bad omens about the end of the world.
Later in the story I am considering allowing a few of the magical creatures, unicorns and the like, to return to the world they left so many years ago, and some of these creatures may help, directly or indirectly, the main 'heros' of the story.

Now I have given too much away!

[Naaramare]

how do you use your monsters - as foils for the hero/heroine? in unexpected ways?

Well, my dragons tend to become main characters in and of themselves. They're my living, breathing, flesh-and-blood "monsters"; they have a society, are utterly physical (although very strong in magic), lay eggs, raise young, fight wars (with the occasional very foolish human ruler) and so forth.

My phoenix is mostly a spiritual incarnation; I suppose you could call her a messenger of God (if you're not calling her a God in the Machine . . .^~), so she's more of the 'foil for the heroine', I suppose. Mostly simply an outward manifestation of what the heroine knows she's supposed to do, but is terrified of.

My ki-rin are usually borderline deus ex machinas. ::grins:: They're unexpected, I suppose, running about delivering justice (and not always what one would expect, as heroes have been turned into frogs and suchlike) and wisdom and occasionally "stealing" children.

[Lila Bramble]

Thanks for the welcome! And I will answer the question 'How do you use your monsters/villains?'

In my stories (which all happen to be fantasy with genres of adventure with weavings of drama and romance) the villain has always a very important role:

To make everything complicated!

In most of my fantasy works, the main character or hero has some sort of relationship with the villain or had asscotiations with him/her/it in earlier years.

Also, to make things interestings smilies/wink.gif, I usually let one character slip away; either to fall into the villian's side, or to be defeated or killed.

My villians always have a reason for their actions and a detailed history of their evil ways. Usually they ahve strengths and barley have weaknesses, and the hero is never the one to slay them.

Always the defeat of the villain is shared among more than one person, leaving a network of help in the slaying or demolishing, often very complaicated, leaving you to think who is the most responsible for the defeat.

Sometimes villains are thought defeated and lay dormant, and when least expected, such as in times of peace and prosperity, appear again, causing much disturbance and havoc.

This is how I use my villains, in complicated, yet interesting ways. Well, thanks for listening!

[Lila Bramble]

Thanks for the welcome! And I will answer the question 'How do you use your monsters/villains?'

In my stories (which all happen to be fantasy with genres of adventure with weavings of drama and romance) the villain has always a very important role:

To make everything complicated!

In most of my fantasy works, the main character or hero has some sort of relationship with the villain or had asscotiations with him/her/it in earlier years.

Also, to make things interestings smilies/wink.gif, I usually let one character slip away; either to fall into the villian's side, or to be defeated or killed.

My villians always have a reason for their actions and a detailed history of their evil ways. Usually they ahve strengths and barley have weaknesses, and the hero is never the one to slay them.

Always the defeat of the villain is shared among more than one person, leaving a network of help in the slaying or demolishing, often very complaicated, leaving you to think who is the most responsible for the defeat.

Sometimes villains are thought defeated and lay dormant, and when least expected, such as in times of peace and prosperity, appear again, causing much disturbance and havoc.

This is how I use my villains, in complicated, yet interesting ways. Well, thanks for listening!

[the real findorfin]

My writings are greatly influenced by David Eddings.

I have a race called the zraks.

The have white skin and pointed ears and are quite tall. Like the angaraks of eddings.

In the past they were the followers of the 'great evil' in my book.

They are trying to get over it but have create a ggreat religious empire based on the sun.

There are otherl, more stereotypical monsters......like Werewolves, etc. as well.

[Lila Bramble]

I'm aorry to be posting so much, but I just reviewed a little bit of the earlier pages.

I agree that it is okay to weave some sexual relationships. After all, it is compltely normal.

Also, language is okay since it is true people use 'bad' words occasonallym, so there shouldn't really be a problem, after all, you should see what I write.

I'm on www.fanfiction.net (http://www.fanfiction.net) as well, and there you can post whatever you want. It is best to have ratings on your works.

[Laiedheliel]

Laiedheliel, I like your music angle. Someone on another thread mentioned modern dissonance vs classical: do you see different schools of magic? Could dissonant magic ever be good? -Nar
Hmm...I really haven't thought about it, but now that I do I'd have to say: no, dissonant magic could not be wholly good, and yes, I see different schools of magic.. This is why: the songs are like pacts (promises, bargans, pleas) with the higher powers of my world, and when you sing/play something beautiful, it catches their attention and makes them more willing to help you, almost as if they need to be bought over with more that one's loyalty. This is where the different schools would come into play: certain tunes and lyrics would be need for each deity, and for each effect you wished to achieve. There is alot more on that subject, and if you really wanna know, PM and I'll tell you the rest. If you were to play something dissonant, it might offend them, and thus make them less willing to give their aid. I suppose that if you did play/sing something dissonant, it would be harder or take more (an offering of some type, riches possibly for a virtuous deity, blood and souls for a foul one?) to accomplish the ends the song was meant to. A note: this is all off the top of my head, before reading your post Nar, I hadn't thought about it. I also feel like I've given too much away (for everyone at FWW!).


Anybody want to share favorite monsters?
I haven't put any 'monsters' into my story yet, though I have plans in my head for demons and other such things (again, I'm giving stuff away!). I suppose I'd include other mythically creatures also, not just the evil ones. I'd be cool to have something similar to a chimera (sp?)...O, and dragons are cool.

Question for y'all: how do you use your monsters - as foils for the hero/heroine? in unexpected ways? -LMP
My monsters would end up as obstacles on a longer path towards a main villan, as if the head bad guy were using them as pawns on a chess board. And certain alliances would come into play, it all gets very complicated.
But, LMP, you'll get to see eventually! smilies/wink.gif

Creoso, Lila! Hope you enjoy your stay here with the undead, and keep posting!

Seven Pages! Woohoo! Now everyone should join in that magic drinking song!

[Niphredil Baggins]

I don't event pretend that I have read the latest messages thorougly - I am too eager to tackle the topics myself, as to stay in your pace. let's see, men an women way back on the previous page, and now magic and monsters.

I have four equal protagonists in my story that, at the moment (it changes name very often) I call Dremette. Two women and two men. One of the women is a hunter, raised like a man, looking like half male, muscular and bald, with a high position in her masculinity-admiring tribe. She is not very talkative and immensely stubborn. Yet she has a tender heart, a crush, and a dislike for war: she does not want to kill men, just animals. The other woman is a teenage girl, small and slender, very curious and open-minded, but at the beginning weeps for her dead lover. One of the men is a wandering adventurer with a love for the stars and nature, not very muscular but quite agile. The last one, a man, is a renowned warrior and commander of war.

Magic: it is like a natural force in this story, but it can also be connected to either demonic or angelic powers. It is acquired by study. It has sort of natural laws that only the angels and demons can break.

Monsters: well, I have dragons, men who drink blood and get power from it but are no vampires, and demons. I use the dragons most.

I also have another story in process, wholly different...

[Saxony Tarn]

Seven Pages -- yee-ha! You creatures of the night have sure been busy while i've been busy pounding away at plot complications (well, okay, a few aerial shots of Mordor, a nice dogfight in a gusty wind area, and some assorted voodoo pins tidily stuck into the hero) and i can say with greater certainty that the end of my tale may well be in sight (not just the glowing eyeballs of the dragon at the other end of the tunnel) ...which means that the beta-editing begins! Uff-da!

Glad to see that some brave souls have taken up the banner and tossed out some bait. Not to be outdone as a carnivorous graveyard beast, i'll elect to gnaw on a few:

Monsters, well, let's see... i guess you could count Skheel as a monster, since she's half Orc, but she's one of the main Cast, so technically she's a character (but it's that half monster edge that makes her such fun) Then again, when you consider that the main hero of this epic-under-construction is well known from Tolkein for being his own worst enemy, Boromir doesn't really need to have any "monsters" to play opposite, he's got Ego, Id, and Guilty Conscience lying in wait for him around the next dark corner (and all played by Bean but IMNSHO he's got the range for it)

i suppose that makes Meannalle Sidhe the cherry on top of this belly-buster ice cream sundae. So how would he go about defeating his own worst enemy? Oops, better let you read that part for yourselves!

In other news, i finally got a better visualization of the Dwarf in the party -- he was sort of the hold-out, the one i couldn't see well enough to sketch. So here's a side dish for you:

1) Bit characters that take over the plot and shove the heroes out of the way? (in one story i had to be careful of giving a character a name, for once i did, that started a new plot tangent)

2) Characters whom you intend for a larger role, but they just refuse to let you bring them forward? Example from "Trust Me" -- i have reference sketches and actors cast for 4 of the 5 major players, but Náin the Dwarf i have only the barest of descriptions for, can't figure out who would play him in a movie (given that Rhys-Davies is already playing Gimli) and only recently determined the color of his hair this past weekend.

i figure Náin will get over his Dwarven reticence by the beta-edit. Anyone else have an under- or over-performing character they'd like to share?

s.t.

|_|) <-- drinks all around!

[Lila Bramble]

smilies/tongue.gif Indeed, I will keep posting! I like to be invovled in such discussion, and thank you for the invatation I recieved in a review for my story 'master of the Red Pearl', a seriosu fantasy work of mine. *Hint hint* Seriosu fantasy...posted at the Downs... smilies/wink.gif

[Naaramare]

1) Bit characters that take over the plot and shove the heroes out of the way? (in one story i had to be careful of giving a character a name, for once i did, that started a new plot tangent)


Yes. Way too many. For my own story, I ended up having to ruthlessly shove six or seven different plotlines out of the way and focus on the main one . . .because if I didn't, well, one of my chara's has a few millenia of history behind him, and more to the point, he shares four hundred years of that history with a main-secondary character, which makes for way to many plot bunnies.


2) Characters whom you intend for a larger role, but they just refuse to let you bring them forward?

This one, not so many, but a few. A dragon who was going to be a major plot-motivator and semi-villain . . .well, opponent, anyway, who just sort of ceased to be along the way. My real villain expanded (frighteningly) and the dragon became unnecessary.

[Maikadilwen]

Bit characters that take over the plot and shove the heroes out of the way? (in one story i had to be careful of giving a character a name, for once i did, that started a new plot tangent)
I started out with a character who was important to the story and it's development, but not that important. But her story has become so important to the main plot, that she's now a main character and in a way, she's become THE main character in the last third of the story.

I've had another experience with anothr of my characters. I changed his name and the moment I did so he completely changed his personality. He became even more blunt and ranting than before. But actually this behaviour suits him much better than his former one.

[Saxony Tarn]

Great -- i see i'm not the only one who finds those soap-opera walk-ons running away with the show! B) (BTW - Nar, got your e-mail, i'll be getting back to you later on it privately, but consider yourself hired. i really hope i can live up to my advance publicity now -- thanks LMP and everyone for keeping this thread going 'cause it's been quite helpful to have a place to rant, rave, and share ideas & experiences)

Keep chewing on those bones, i'll think up another stumper soon enough...

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and here's a round for the thread posters...