Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[Eol]

Lila bramble: look at anglo saxton names, they give wonderful flavor and the thinking has already been done for you. Go to google and type in anglo saxton names also try gaelic or welsh names. Look at german also. THey may not have a name, but can provide some inspiration.

also consider if this paladin is of nobleblood or peasant. If peasant, he would only have one name, noble two, first and surname. if need more directions email me!
good luck!

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Owain son of Urien]

JRR used a lot of Welsh names [like Arwen]. Anybody interested in lots and lots of 'Tolkienesque' type names for characters in their own stories go to http://www.kabalarians.com/female/welsh-f.htm
There are mens names too.

[Nimiriel]

Hi. I have been away for a long time (three weeks) and maybe some of this is not what you have discussed lately but anyway:
First of all I'm writing on two stories right now. One in a Tolkien kind of world (though the elves are more perfect than Tolkiens... you who have read the Silmarillion know what I mean) and another in a mordern world with vapires and maybe angels too. Talking religion then theese to worlds are actually part of the same world. I'll try to make it quick: At first there was Nothing, Eternaty and Conciousness. Conciousness made out of it's mind (or what you will call it) the Physsic Material (atoms) and the Magic/Mental Material (magic powers, souls and dreams). Then the PhM gathered and became planets and stars and so on, but stars are also partly MM thats why we think of them as so beautiful. Anyway each planet gets kind of a spirrit or conciousness of its own (good ol' mother nature) and its the neutral ballance between good and evil. This planets spirrit then creates some god-like creatures of pure MM, four good (two female + two male) and three evil (two male + one female twice as powerful as the others) this means that there is a ballance between good and evil, but the good alone is also in ballance, while the evil alone is out of ballance. The Four and the Three take physsical shape and the Four begin to make the earth. It’s a long story but it ends up with: One place all magical (heaven?), one all physsical (our world), and one in between (the Tolkien kind of world) also known as Atlantis because it suddenly diappeared for us (long and complicated story). Everything has a soul in this world, the difference from elf to human to plant to stone, is how concentrated the MM is in their soul, but the Three has succeded in getting some evil into the souls of everything except the elves. That was how the world was made.
This world is a heaven for authors like us because if you imagine a world it will come to life, but in another dimension or what we might call it. The vampires came from such a dimension and slipped into our world through some kind of hole or something. But my point is that the religion in this world is the ballance and NOT only good, because if everything was good, death would not exist and the world would stop changing.

Ok my try to make it quick didn’t work out very well.
The main plot in my first story is that one of the Four gets captured in the body of an half-elf and she can’t use her powers or anything, in fact she doesn’t know she has one of the Four inside her. And of course the good and evil is not in ballance any more...

Well someone said a while ago something about making up your own language was unneccesary. I don’t know if someone has allready said this but: The making of a language makes me feel that my world is more alive and not just the stages in a theater were the world stops just outside the view of the audience. Also i think people would love it, if my stories ever become a huge success, like we love to learn the languages Tolkien made. And finally I’m a bit of a perfectionist so I can’t just write some nonsens and then say “ Oh, this is the old elven language and meens I love you...” or something like that.

Hope I haven’t bored you to death.
smilies/wink.gif

P.S. I'm not afraid to admit that much of my world is greatly inspired by Tolkien.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[NazgulNumberTen]

whow! thanks for the link to those names. I will use some, heck i may even use one for a kid...

[Naaramare]

Hoping for the distinctions between magic and magick. I can guess, but you got me curious

Mmm. That depends on whether you mean in real life or in my story.

In real life, what the religion known as Witchcraft does in rituals and so forth, we call magick. We add the k essentially to give the word a slightly different look from "magic".

That's because there is in the public mind an image that comes with "magic". Well, actually, there's two: the stage-magician, with sleight-of-hand and so forth; the other is the image of the sword-and-sorcery mage who can wave his hands, say a few words and end up with a house standing on end.

This is not what Witches do, but we do consider our rituals magic . . .to avoid the wrong mental image, we add a k to the end of the word, changing association. ^^

Within my story, I use that real life distinction. "Magic" is what my elves and various mages do, things that have immediate impact that can be measured. "Magick" on the other hand, is reference to all the faith-based things, like rituals, prayers . . .they have an effect on magic and on the rest of the world, but one that's impossible to measure or really predict.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Talk about a list of names! smilies/eek.gif I think I'd use them to name a kid too!

Oh, and LMP, I didn't pm you back, but thanks for the encouragement! smilies/wink.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

[Naaramare]

And the world shall die of shock, for Naaramare is going to ask a question.

The circumstances around the creation of my current story are rather complicated and probably somewhat unique, but thinking about them got me to wondering.

I often feel less as if I'm writing this story and more as if this story is simply using me to get written. In short, to paraphrase an artist by the name of Ursula Vernon (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/u/r/ursula/ursula.html), this story has made me it's biatch.

Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?

[Eol]

writing an adquite story that you are satified with is a LOT of HARD work. My friend and I have spend endless hours discussion Interregnum from characters and questioning every aspect from their behavior to what they think the way they do.

The key to writing is to question what you write: WHAT, WHY, HOW and where. Ponder and brainstorm. There are many times that Interregnum has kicked by buttocks,however, I would take a break and do something else for a while until another groove(inspiration/ motivation) comes to me.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?

Most of my waking hours. It's insane. I completely agree. My story has me hooked, there is no escape. I find myself re-running scenes in my head, trying out different things that a character might say or do. I find myself just completely making up scenes that have absolutely no impact on the plot whatsoever, but are just fun to see. They're mostly arguements between two of my characters. I've used two of them that I thought up of, and only cuz I was able to fit them in somehow into the storyline.
I am redrawing my maps everyday, trying out different spellings of names, doodling little pics of Aven, drawing the Leafstone, polishing up the grammar and such of my language. Working out this one character who won't do anything...(still working on that guy! Yeesh! *pokes Gahren* please do something!) In short, my story has taken control of every waking thought in some way or another. I went to an animethon this weekend and during this one movie, there was a character with white hair and pointy ears and green eyes and all I could think of was how much he looked like Aven! Except...he was the bad guy...heheh. ^.^

[littlemanpoet]

Naarmare:
Talk about getting more information than you bargained for!... But thanks. It was enlightening, and I wasn't quite right in my guessing.

I often feel less as if I'm writing this story and more as if this story is simply using me to get written....Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?
I take a Jungian point of view on your first question; I like to think it's also Tolkienian. Yes, the story writes (and rights) me at least as much as I write (and right) it. I wouldn't have it any other way. I used to obssess on the story, but don't anymore. Not that I've somehow become better, it's just that having joined a local writers' group, and now an on line one, plus having other responsibilities, I just have to wait until I can get to it. When I do, it's total focus. In my current revision, I am doing far much more planning and plotting than ever. This is because most of the plot and character are already there in the first six or seven versions, and it's time to cut and splice and fill in where needed in order to make it work as story. There's still going to be some fresh writing because of some new stuff, which by the way has got me stopped at the moment (thanks a lot Nar smilies/tongue.gif ), but that's okay. As soon as I have it figured out what a certain professor is going to say and not say, and when a certain faerie princess is going to be revealed, and how pushy my protagonist is going to be, I'll be able to move on. (Like I said, thanks a lot Nar smilies/wink.gif ).

[Lila Bramble]

Ack, so much writing...*gets dizzy*

For my paladin name, he is just a regular peasant in a sense, and he is not knighted but his father was a paladin and taught him the ways of the white knightery. At that time, all white fighting and white magic is outlawed, so the paladin (he's young!) doesn't have a name like 'Sir __'. I was thinking of RPg sorta thing like...Locke?

[Rimbaud]

Hmmm...I have wanted to post on this thread for so long; work devours time from my hand. In any case, I have been writing for most of my life, and for the last twelve years on one particular work. Obviously in that time I have worked on numerous side-projects. Journalism pays the bills! Well, some of them.

In that time, the Muse has visited me on her own terms. 3am seems to be a popular time for her. Certainly never on a cloudy Saturday morning when I sit before a blank screen - or even a full one. I have no ability to grasp the ungraspable - indeed, I have now forgone that activity and simply wait with the patience I can muster. The time when the spark is not there, I spend in editing and improvements. Although, that too is much facilitated by Her presence.

[Nimiriel]

How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories?

All the time! No matter what I'm thinking or doing, sooner or later (mostly sooner) I find myself thinking of my story again. I think It's mostly because I have a big problem: I know just how the start shall be, and how the main plot starts and ends, and how the first book ends, and how the next book starts and ends, BUT: I don't know how to get my main caracter from the start of the first book and into the main plot... but I'm working on it... all the time!

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Naarmare! How long do I personally spend on my story. Hm, let me think....I've been trying to write one for a couple months now I should say, and I ONLY have one character, and my storyline that isn't completely written out. All in a couple months time! Oh, wait shall I forget my ONE poem that I might fit in there.

Lila, I have this game Majesty and they have Paladins in it. I'm gonna play later and I'll get all the names they have for you. They name the little paladin people, so I'll just "borrow" them and post 'em back up here later.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to AYWSF, Stephanos. Since Saxony Tarn is probably absent with brains boiling from the heat in CA, I'll do the honors and offer you a virtual AYWSF cup to fill with the virtual spirited beverage of your choice.

|_|)

Drink up and good health and good writing.

Well there you have the makings of another good question, friends: Do you wait for the Muse to strike? Do you have to? How often does She strike? and why the heck is she absent so much? And how do you think Tolkien handled this, or was he too far above us mere mortals to have this problem?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Naarmare, I usually spend as much time as I can on my story. (forgot to add this part in) I think about it all the time, wondering what I could change, should I leave that part in, blah blah blah. But I didn't really get that far! I'm too picky. I want my characters names to be just perfect and I want my storyline COMPLETELY thought out. This surprises me though, I'm not usually the type of person to gradually work on things.

Nimiriel, I love that poem in your signature! Did you write that? (I like your name too)

[Naaramare]

Do you wait for the Muse to strike? Do you have to? How often does She strike?

Yes, yes and not often enough. I have triggers for m'darlin' muse (who happens to be uncommon and thus male, but that's okay), certain songs that will pinch him into action, but in the long run I just have to wait for him to strike me with the desire to write. This is always at inconvenient times like 1130 at night when I have to work at six the next morning.

and why the heck is she absent so much?

Because my muse and I have serious disagreements about how much angst and pain I will allow him to put my characters through. So he punishes me by abandoning me for long periods.

[Nimiriel]

Thank you Lothiriel Silmarien. Yes I wrote that after reading Legolas' song of the sea ten times... and my name is my own work too, it's going to be one of the characters in my story.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[Saxony Tarn]

my thanks, LMP, for taking over the bartender duties while i've been letting my brain cool down! And it's supposed to be pleasant all week -- huzzah. (maybe i can get some writing done!)

Good question Naaramare, and you're not alone. My stories tend to be written when they want to be, and when they take a holiday, nothing i can do will force them out. For example, Keviran (the band quoted earlier that LMP liked so much) was first written down loosely in a matter of weeks, then sat in the back of a box (and my brain) for TEN YEARS until a few things fell into place. Then it was like extracting a zipped file. Also in that box are enough incomplete stories that i'm determined to bring the one i'm working on now to a close whether it wants to be or not. (with enough ideas for a sequel, i think it will find an end. Just what end, though, depends on the volunteer beta readers' votes.)

And speaking of "Trust Me", it made it clear to me after about a month of trying NOT to write it that it was going to drive me mad if i didn't. So i write in the evenings (ambient temperature permitting) and red-pen the manuscript during breaks at work. Every day (with occasional evenings off to remind myself that i still have some semblance of a social life) This past weekend some missing lines in a pivotal scene came into form (my excuse for turning my back on the board for the weekend this time) and with luck, i'll be able to move it along toward its conclusion (taking down some hasty notes on where i expected it to go will prove to have been a wise move, i'm sure)

But since i can never depend on this erratic source of inspiration to be steady, i can easily talk myself out of trying to make a living at it. A friend of mine who does make his living at it sometimes has to provoke that creative flow to come when he needs it to -- at times i don't know how he does it (but i'm certain that nothing carrying a criminal charge is involved... B) )

This is a guy who believes he "was put on this Earth to tell stories" (and before you ask, FWW members, he's one of my contacts.)

|_|) <-- a toast to our Muses!

S.T.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Lila, I got the names. Here are the Paladin names I could find:

*Dyevanna the Proud
*Katra Stronghelm
*Gerada the Pious

And here are some other names I found, not Paladin, but oh well!

*Allyn
*Kalderon
*Eterian
*Sir Eldan Knightly
*Sir Baramar
*Sir Tremon
*Sir Sarion the Battlemaster

Hope I helped!

[Thinhyandoiel]

Lila, looking for Paladin names? When you said Locke, I immediately thought "thief" (oops, sorry, treasure hunter smilies/wink.gif) In one of my RPG games (FFII) There was a Paladin, his name was Cyrus, I think. I might have to go back and check. Anyways, I agree with you. Names must be absolutely perfect. It's probably why I'm always looking at the names I have and musing over them for so long.
Do you wait for the Muse to strike? Do you have to? How often does She strike? and why the heck is she absent so much?
Not really. Sometimes. Often (depends) and because she probably wants me to finish writing what she told me to the last time she visited. ^.^ Actually, when I have writer's block, it's as if my mind won't let her in. I get inklings of ideas, just little ones, but then they're gone way too fast before I can muse over them. Meh.

[dragongirlG]

Goodness, I haven't been here for ages. I'm lost. Below are some answers to questions that occurred in the last few pages.

Inspiration and spending time on the story
Sadly, I do not spend the majority of my time working or thinking about my story. My unfortunate writing habit is that I think up a beginning and perhaps middle of the story, then write and just let the characters come out and do whatever my hands tell them to do. Naturally I make some corrections, i.e. spelling, grammar, and literary devices, but most of the time I'm just writing whatever comes out of me. I'm sort of "on the go" or "in the flow." This way I don't really get writer's block. I pay attention to what I'm doing, but in a way, I'm not really thinking. I guess you could say that my subconscious, or soul, or whatever term may be used to describe it, is writing for me, instead of my head and my logic. Then, the flow stops, and that's writer's block. Sometimes it only stops for an instant--I like to think of it as an unfinished dam with water rushing through it in a flood--and the ideas, characters, settings, and different plots all come back. I describe writer's block as a dam that is finished, completed, cemented, very strong, and only when the high tide comes will it fall down and the ideas rush in. Then the tide ebbs, and that's my process of elimination--"Oh, no, that's a totally crazy idea not fit for the story at all," or "My gosh, that's great! Why didn't I think of it before?" Of course, there's always experiences that affect the story too. Sometimes experiences give you writer's block, and sometimes they make the tide of ideas stronger. I've had a lot of experiences and discoveries lately, and it's given me quite a bout of writer's block. Ergh.

When does my Muse come? Hmm, well...sometimes when I'm practicing my musical instruments, sometimes when I read something and my mind just wanders off to what I'll write, when I write in my journal and can't think of anything to say...basically, when no other aspect of my life is interesting or is calling for attention, or when I am just too lazy to go practice my instruments or prepare for the SATs. Paper is always available to me, and usually this computer is too, so sometimes I just start a file and begin writing. When I take long car trips (in which my father is driving) I bring a binder and write--not specifically my fantasy novel, but ideas that have been bugging me and have prevented me from finishing this or other works.

The story of how I decided to write a fantasy novel is quite interesting, though. I saw this thread, and was in the process of making a decision on what I should write for my sci-fi unit in English (I ended up writing an argument against the advancements of technology). I put this off for a while, caught up in graduation ceremonies, awards shows, concerts, and finals, and then I wrote a few poems about missing my school. I came back to this thread one day, and I thought about the play that I had never written for my sci-fi unit, thought a while, and then went upstairs to my journal that night and put down the characters and points of the opening chapter. I planned to put them in official paragraph form the next morning. The next day, I got up early, wrote it, and that's how it came about. (Okay, to put it in simple words, I sat down at my desk and said, "Okay, I'm going to write a fantasy novel." The idea had never occurred to me except a character's name--she had no past or anything, I just liked the name.)

As I said earlier, though, I don't really think about it all that much. I care, but as I'm now experiencing writer's block, I'm content just to sit back and read some other great works, including the FWW or my summer reading Brave New World. The tide has been low these weeks. I've also been busy with summer school and my music, so I haven't had a lot of time to think about it. My day is just physically routine: get up, go to school, go home--practice, watch movies, whatever, and go to sleep. Summer school ends on Thursday, though, so perhaps I can spend some more time with you guys. Or I'll need to catch up on my music, which has been lagging behind and is more important to my family (they make me feel so guilty!)

That's about all I can say for now. I'm finally back!

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Lila Bramble]

Lothiriel, thank you so much! I might still go with 'Locke' cause I love the name, but you helped!

Stephanos Welcome aboard to our part of the graveyard! Have another one on me!

|_|) <-------------------

Also, the question came how long do you work on writing. I'm young, dont gotta lot of time, so I take my time and try to write an hour a day. I get one chapter (there short) done in about two hours, and good 'ol Saxony edits (she's awesome!)

I like to get things done (I have many tales awaiting to be written...) but it never hurts to slow down and take it good and slow, espically when your young!

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Glad I did Lila! smilies/biggrin.gif

[NazgulNumberTen]

ok i have some questions.
how do you feel about using tolkien created things in a novel. i know of some games that have halfings in them, but what about using the name "hobbit"?
hmmmmmm there as another example, but i can't remember it.
oh wait the other one is mythril (sp?) i have seen both it and true silver.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumberTen ]

[Starbreeze]

how do you feel about using tolkien created things in a novel. i know of some games that have halfings in them, but what about using the name "hobbit"?

Personally I avoid it whenever possible, mainly becuase I want everything in my story to be my own, not anyone elses, and also I don't want to be accused of copying, when that is what I fight so hard against.

[NazgulNumberTen]

i agree.
(oh and i signed up for faeriewordweavers, just waiting for an acceptance email smilies/biggrin.gif )

[Starbreeze]

Oh,oh! I have another question!

Have you found, since you started writing that you percieve things differenlty - for example, when gazing absently out of the window, do you see a motorway and a pile of dustbins (for example) or do you see them as potential for a great idea for one of your scenes? Do you see Crows or a new species of bird native only to the area where your story is set?

[NazgulNumberTen]

<font color=green>well, if i see a motorway and dustbins, i think of the destructive force of man. i think of the trees that used to be there, the clean, crisp air, replaced by smoke and ash. i think of the grass long dead and the fuana never to return. yes i do percive things differently, i see and write about a time when all those things were still there.

[ July 21, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumberTen ]

[Starbreeze]

Wow, Nazgul, that is exactly what I meant, though I don't think I explained it very well! I can't wait to read your work, from what you just said it sounds great!

[NazgulNumberTen]

i just hope it live up to your expectations

[dragongirlG]

Hope to see you at the group, NN10. Unfortunately, one of our moderators (littlemanpoet) is out so you might have to wait a while.

Have you found, since you started writing that you percieve things differenlty - for example, when gazing absently out of the window, do you see a motorway and a pile of dustbins (for example) or do you see them as potential for a great idea for one of your scenes? Do you see Crows or a new species of bird native only to the area where your story is set?

Well, I don't really think of the story or setting. I just see everything very poetically. I automatically start describing things very elegantly with literary devices and everything.

[Anna Licumo]

Have you found, since you started writing that you percieve things differenlty - for example, when gazing absently out of the window, do you see a motorway and a pile of dustbins (for example) or do you see them as potential for a great idea for one of your scenes? Do you see Crows or a new species of bird native only to the area where your story is set?

I have been blessed with rather bad vision. Glasses and all. I remember when I first got them. Wow! The world just opened up, and everything was bright and fresh! I could see everything! I try to remind myself of that everday, to *see*. My friend once said I had the eyes of a two year old. It was one of the biggest compliments I've ever had. She said I "would sit and watch a bug crawl on a leaf for hours, and talk about it endlessly, the same way I would talk about a famous piece of art or historical happening. You watch *everything*, Anna! Good grief, I'm suprised you don't walk into the trees you're staring at all the time. Honestly."

My mind wanders like nothing else, and I just feed it. I make up in imagination what I lack in height. smilies/rolleyes.gif It gets me in trouble in school, when I'm daydreaming my next scene instead of reading the same paragraph I already finished everyone else is on, but oh well! I like it. smilies/biggrin.gif

::Realizes she is not making much sense and scuttles off to stand in the rain until her mother yells at her to put on a rain jacket. Again.::

[Lila Bramble]

Ack, I've been gone away, I'm visiting Canada for a while. Its great up here, though I must say, my hotel has slow internet access and I can't write! Oh, the horror!

Sorry, but I didn't have much time to read through anything but being the young writer I am, have to answer a few questions and ask one (Eep, I know, I have a curious young mind!)

First of all, when the question came about, about how you perceive things, I must say, when I think of roads, even now and not in fantasy, I think of the wildlife and place they destroyed to create it and everything including life that had to leave. When I think of cars, I think of harm that its doing to our planet.

Also, I never wait for my Muse to strike, for it never happens until I get outta the shower, and I mostly use that to draw! But I'm creative anyway (I think...) and the Muse will probably have to wait to be used until later days...

And, my question (horror!) is:

Question: Can paladins (holy/white knights) also pratice their own magic, and or use white magic? I fear it may be a bit much to be an out-lawed paladin AND a white mage.

Well, anyways, time for a good 'ol quote by me...

So I suck at life. Don't hate me for it!

[littlemanpoet]

Hi writers

Just popping in while I have a computer handy while on vacation. I love Starbreeze's latest question, and really have little to offer to Lila Bramble's regarding Paladins. Regarding looking at the world, I have a very hard time not taking things at first impression. Like the first words out of my mouth at seeing the area around Mount Saint Helens was, "A little bit of Mordor!" My wife nodded, "yes." But clouds always inspire me. I love to look at them as mountains of their own. or islands. or whatever, and imagine riding them through the air like ships through the sea. Seeing old-growth forests puts me in mind of Mirkwood and Fangorn. There still are some old-growth forests in Michigan's upper peninsula and in the northwest. There's hope yet. Gotta run.

[Lila Bramble]

Well, it seems that most people have abandoned their computers for this part of the summer, as all of the boards I contribute to have been failing to provide much talk.

Anyway, LMP, its okay, I doubt I'll seriosuly start to work on that story for a while. Its one of those stories you dont put on the internet cause you might wanna publish it. Heh, that's right, its actually a serious work!

[Saxony Tarn]

welcome back, everyone...

okay -- welcome back to me, the show is over and i'm somewhat recovered (and certainly seeing things differently after being buried in a subterranean brightly-lit exhibit hall filled with gaudy booths and more new and improved high-tech products than you could pack in a sci-fi story)

w/ regards to paladins -- Lila, e-mail me about that, i may be able to dig up some things for you. The essential thing about them is that they derive their strength from some deity or worthy cause, most often (though not always) of the Good persuasion. Thus their "white magic" would be more divine in nature than arcane.

more later, after the caffeine fully kicks in ... (heading to bar to knock dust off it and fetch large cold drink)

|_|) <-- skoal!

s.t.

[Starbreeze]

I'm really glad I'm not alone with my perceptions of the world around me changing. I've seen things so much differently - in two ways - the way LMP suggested, but also I see everything as potential story material. I went on holiday over the weekend to a 'Joust Festival' - a Ren (Renaissance) Fair to you Americans - the first ever in Britain with ful contact jousting and demonstrantions of war horse training since they were banned several centaries ago. All around me I saw people in costumes from the time frame my story is set in - and everything was stary material - right down to the detail of palace life and The Joust. Too bad I didn't take a pen and pad of paper! smilies/frown.gif

[littlemanpoet]

My friends, I'm stuck on a fight scene. Nar has encouraged me to really challenge my protagonist with a seemingly "against all odds" situation, and so I've thrown him and the fair maiden he thinks he's rescuing up against a gang of 12 bad men in a woods. They're separated, 7 after her and 5 after him, two of which he's lost and the other 3 of which surround him. She can take care of herself, which he doesn't know, but they all have the same knife he's stolen from one of them, 3 against 1. He's quick and agile and has good instincts, but the only think I can thing of is "There she is!" He points and doesn't even fool them but they look anyway and back again as fast as they can but he's still caught. Now what? He has to find her and the magic pool. Help!

[littlemanpoet]

Yes, Starbreeze, all of life is grist for my writing mill. Problem is, surrounded by incredible sights in the state of Washington, I'm too mired down in personal garbage to be able to get out of writers' block. And here I thought I was immune. Hah! Nevertheless, I know that having seen the slag hummocks and otherworldly scenes that surround Mount Saint Helens will indeed benefit my writing at some point in the future. By the way, I am just way too envious that you got to go to that Ren fair and I had to stay away from the many around my home.

[mark12_30]

Littlemanpoet, I'm sorry if I'm rudely jumping into an established conversation-- three-minute rule and all that-- I just noticed your comment on writers' block. I had always heard that "the cure" was writing sheer stream-of-consciousness until the block disappeared. Anybody else want to comment on that? Any other cures?

[Saxony Tarn]

LMP -- would it be possible to preview this fight scene & offer some advice? (probably you'd want to PM me and set that up, for example, send me a chunk of it by e-mail)

My tale's been stuck for most of this month, but i expect it'll get itself unstuck again soon...

s.t.

[Naaramare]

Mark 12_30: Eh. I'd say no. Because at the moment, I'm not completely blocked, per se; if I had the interest, there are six or seven short story ideas I could churn out. The thing is, I'm blocked on my particular story.

A professional writer claims that WB does not exist. However, a professional writer has to live off their efforts (and I think this is responsible for a lot of hastily churned-out, flawed books, really . . .so many of my almost-favourite authors could have been that much better if they'd stopped and reviewed their stories themselves a few more times. . . I think, anyway).

"We don't have time to nurse neurosis" is the comment I've heard at one point from a writer (through the medium of her writer-character). Well, true enough if you're living off of it in a genre-fiction world. ^^ But! In myself I've noticed two things.

When I try to force myself to "get over" my block by stream-of-consciousness writing or other tricks that are about forcing the block away, my personal writing quality suffers. Badly. It becomes merely acceptable, as opposed to good. However, if I simply wait until I'm actually ready to write, the quality is better.

So there are a bunch of "cures"--stream of consciousness, simply FORCING yourself to write no matter what comes out, reworking the outline, working on something else--but because I have the luxury of being able to simply wait the block out, I do. Because in the end, it's better for my story.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Naaramare ]

[littlemanpoet]

The block has moved back a couple steps. It was being caused by my reluctance to letting my hero get captured. He is now gagged and bound and listening to four jerks and one leader type hash out what to do with him as the jerks give out too much information and the leader keeps cuffing the idiots who do. Free choice and ambition, I think, are going to be the keys to O's escape because the leader is angling for a promotion and the idiots are envious because THEY want it instead of him, so that they can FINALLY get back to their native heck-hole and have a real immortal body instead of the stupid "walking death-traps" the humans are stuck with. Yep, we're talking about possession.

[Naaramare]

Heh. Congrats, lmp; I'm still stuck on mine. My block hinges on the fact that the situation is extremely uncomfortable both for the people involved and for me as a writer (it's actually the kind of situation I try to avoid, personally . . . )

Copy/pasting from my dj, were I talked about it last night:

"I really need to work on BrM. I think my problem is that the next scene is just s'damned awkward, not because of a writing flaw, but because it's an awkward situation. I mean, here's my heroine, she's faced with the guy who walked away from her five years ago, who's life she just saved, and she has no idea what to do about it.

Not only that, but Puck ain't gonna help. Despite the fact that he seems okay, he's in an incredible amount of pain; iron poisoning causes microspasms for two days afterwards (I've beeen peeeestering Mum for medical details . . . I creeped her out by asking how much burn damage would be necessary on someone's lungs to kill them, and how long it'd take. XD), he's got enough bruises and other stuff . . .plus he knows she's angry with him, he knows she resents him, he's perfectly empathic enough to see all that; however, he knows a bunch of stuff that she doesn't, such as why he left. He's also aware that if she tries, she could make him stay . . .which would seriously endanger her. Really, he didn't mean to collapse at her door anyway, his instincts just took over. So he's going to try to irritate her enough for her to basically send him away again.

But I don't like those kinds of awkward situations. =P I hate them. So I hate writing them. So I'm procrastinating on writing the next bit, and when I try, I'm all distracted and stuff. It's irritating."

[Lila Bramble]

Ah, the dreaded Fight Scenes...

I'm not the greatest at them, but I will have to add them in on my paladin story, I'm guessing, they're always exciting, espically when you can use both weaponary AND magic...

LMP, I'm sorry, but I cant contribute much. I'm sure Saxony will help lots.

[Saxony Tarn]

But i''m sure you'll come up with something brilliant and exquisitely resonating, Naaramare, and i'm looking forward to reading them make each other squirm.

(still stalling while Bor' sweats out a little courtroom drama, with the mental VCR on Pause...)

s.t.

[dragongirlG]

Ah, writer's block, what a mess. I hate it. Congrats to lmp for his recovery; I, like Naaramare, am still stuck. Partly because I'm stuck with all this stuff at home - my real life, as you might say - school starts in a week or so and I'm worrying about that, as well as having to go and do other stuff, and I have major auditions for various musical things soon, so I don't get much time to think. When I do, it's tormenting -- I can't decide what to do with the plot. I suppose I could use the "just sit down and write" technique, but that just intensifies the block. Help! I guess my main problem is that I have too many things on my mind, and I can't ever really concentrate on just writing. I need to. I'll try it, and hope it works.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Hmm, I haven't posted here in a while...actually, writer's block is the cause of that. Or...at least a form of writer's block. Somewhat. Anyways. I'm distracted, horribly distracted by my beloved FFX that I'm afraid if I try to write something, it'll come out as a horrible ripoff of that plot, or certain elements of the game. Thus, I haven't let myself write/edit anything for Mists. Instead, I'm focusing on a fanfiction, trying to get all the Final Fantasy inspired ideas out of my head before it's too late.

Have you found, since you started writing that you percieve things differently
Yes! Like Paul, I find cloud-gazing quite refreshing, inspirational and dreamlike. I've also taken one of my most beloved spectacles of mother nature, thunder storms, sat in them, let myself drown in that roaring music from the heavens, and imagine myself in Khazad-Dum listening to Dwarven Drums (thank the movie for that!), or in my world, during this scene later on where I use the rain symbolically and the Thunder dramatically (or so I hope). Taking a walk in the woods, I can almost imagine certain areas as being 'perfect' for Elves to live in. Also, later on in my story, Aven has a habit of gauging the 'climability' of certain trees. I don't know who got it from who, me from him, or him from me, either way, it all started when my 10-year old cousin climbed a tree while I was babysitting her and nearly gave me heart failure. Now, everything that happens is a potential scene... smilies/smile.gif

[Naaramare]

Have you found, since you started writing that you percieve things differently

I have a quote in one of my bios for a website. It goes "In the beginning, there was the Story. And the Story was with [Naaramare] and the Story was [Naaramare]." (of course, my real name is used).

There was a time when I wasn't a writer, but I've never not been a storyteller. I've never not looked at a tree and wondered if maybe a colony of tree-fae could be living inside, or whether that tree mightn't have been where a traveller made his last stand. The only thing that changed as I got older/more into writing was that instead of wondering what was (because as a child, I firmly believed in the fae in a way that made Santa Claus look pathetic and flimsy), I began to wonder what could-have-been, what-if. ^^

So I can't say I see things differently. I just put what I see to different use.

[Ruthwen]

Hmmm... I'm probably FAR too late to join in this post, and I'm still busy reading it, but... never mind, eh?

Are any of you writing serious fantasy?

I like to think so. smilies/smile.gif

If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?

With great, humungous, amazing difficulty. Especially since in one of my worlds, I have a race of elves.

How long have you been working on your story, and why?

I'm working on a lot of stories. In general, I work on them for about two years, but most of them have been stewing for a year or six months.

What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them — or not?

Well, at the start, the stories always move quite fast, at a good speed for readers. But as I get further in, and get to know my characters better, I slow right down, and it's more concerned with the characters than the plot. I'm still working on overcoming it.

How do you guys feel about including a *hmhm* sexual *hmhm* relationship in your story.

Well, apart from rape, prostitution and incubi, it's never really happened. I'll probably more imply things than actually state them, but I won't go out of my way to avoid them.

Next, how do you keep track of names etc. and phrases you like, that pop into your head?

I have a lot of blank paper floating around my bedroom, so I can generally scribble it down quickly enough. The only problem is locating it again afterwards.

Next, what inspires you? Is it everyday things, or something you read, or dreams? Or a mixture?

Loads of things inspire me. Dreams, things I see, song lyrics, reading books by other people... this thread has me on a MAJOR inspiration high. smilies/biggrin.gif

How do you feel about other people reading your work? Would you be brave enough to share it with the world and publish it or would you be like me (and Maika apparently), who are too scared to even show people we have known for years?

I don't mind other people reading it. Getting published is my dream.

Next, how long do you write for before you feel that it is finished and you can't do anymore without spoiling it?

Generally it's about two years from start to finish, not counting all the proof-reading and so on.

Do you illustrate your work or leave it to the reader's imagination? And do you want to design your own front cover or have someone else do it?

I occasionally draw pictures depicting scenes in the stories, but I'm not a great artist, so if I ever do get published, I think I'll leave that to the experts.

Niphredil Baggins: Your story sounds amazing. If you ever need someone to read it, I'm here. smilies/smile.gif

Same goes for all of you. What talent there is!

[littlemanpoet]

I think I've finally discovered the cure to Writer's Block, thanks to Nar (where are you, Nar? did the great deep dark 'vacation' black hole steal you away forever?).

That's to write down every likely scenario and see how it spins out. A secondary way is to use a trusted sympathetic reader/listener and hash out the issue together.

You know, I think multiple scenario writing may not even take longer than avoidance, which is the usual means of dealing with WB. So it's nothing to get intimidated about, and you wind up having a pretty clear idea of what won't work and what will, and what works best.

Naaramare: I suggest that you write the most extreme version you can think of first. Let the wildest (within the limits of what works in your story) things possible happen between Puck and your protagonist that you can think of. Once you've done that, you at least have vented and you may have a pretty good sense of what WILL be best. Hope that helps. By the way, I'm glad you're writing because it's really fun peeking inside your head. smilies/wink.gif

Thanks anyway, Lila and ST. As it turns out, I DID discuss my latest difficulty with my wife over supper (I usually can NOT talk with her about my story - feel too threatened most of the time by her suggested changes which usually feel ALL wrong. Hmmm, do opposites attract, or what?). Anyway, I'm going to drop the thugs and gang members altogether because I suddenly realized that that ol' Society of the Sciences of Antiquity would be aware of my fairy woman like she was a lightning rod, whether she did any magic or not, because she IS magical. So they're not too far away and they interrupt their rite to check this curiosity out, and (it's the evil segment of the Society, of course) they accost her (there's 13 of them including my arch villainess) and the Felloth that possess them suggest to them to use this magical woman as the focus for their rite, which will do her much harm by turning her into one of them. And my protagonist has to rescue her from THAT. And that's before they even meet the REAL bad guy. I'm beginning to like the way this is going... hee hee hee

dragongirlG: So I would agree to the "sit down and write" school of busting WB, but have a method instead of sitting there banging your head against the table.

Thinhyandoiel: I hope at that first convention of FWW we have a MAJOR thunderstorm. Won't it be great?

Ruthwen: Welcome to AYWSF! Enjoy reading it and post often, and may your inspiration last long as Fairie lives on in the minds of us all. To help that along, have three cups of your fav virtual brew on me (nonalcoholic if you're under age and really care about all that).

|_|) |_|) |_|)

Care to tell us a little about your favorite story (that you're writing)?

[Saxony Tarn]

hey LMP, Thinhyan', & others...

guess we've all had summer writers' block to some degree -- i'm happy to announce that i resumed work on "Trust Me" where it had been stalled -- i started Ch. 23 last night (as a way to put off some necessary housecleaning, but it demanded my attention, so i wrote...) Foreseeing some Oscar moments for The King Formerly Known as Aragorn in the next few pages. (And bring Minas Tirith a new shrubbery while you're at it!)

thanks again LMP for tending the bar while i've been preoccupied with taking that long break from my tale. Here's another thing to try -- accept writers' block and do something totally unrelated to give your brain a rest. (your head will thank you, and you'll get other stuff that had been postponed done)

Or in my case, do something quasi-related to the story but in a different creative vein. i once entered a character portrait in an art show, started to miss it during its absence from my wall, and re-created the character in soft-sculpture 3D. Now i have a picture and a 12" cuddly version of the character to squeeze, cuddle, and menace while throwing plot complications at him. Thought this might tone his rather abrasive nature down a bit when i resumed writing about him -- not. All it did was make him soft and cuddly (but still it was great fun when writing to be able to perceive the character from the "Puppet Master" perspective. Muahahaha...)

Recently did this again, to character in current project. Actually making two copies, 'cause i think i can sell one to a fellow fan, and i intend to replicate as much of costume as possible, right down to the chainmail. i expect hostile reactions from the Elves' and Hobbits' camps now that neither Legolas nor Frodo can lay claim to Cutest Member of the Fellowship any more...

s.t.
master of puppets, in some sense of the term. Perhaps i should send the 'Downs a picture of the finished product for "Fan Art"... Wire-cored fabric sculpture entitled, "Who, Me? Take the Ring? Nah, couldn't be me -- I'm too cute!"

[Starbreeze]

I haven't read all the up to date stuff yet so i might be repeating what has already been said, but when considering writer's block take a look outside. It might seem stupid but I have just signed up for this writer's newsletter which suggests that there is a link between the weather and a writer's performance. E.g. if it is humid or hot you are less likely to either feel like writing, or if you do write, not write at your best (unfortunatly it is the same for people doing exams).
I beleive thsi to be true as in the winter months I always write better than in the summer, despite there being so much more inpiration around in the warmer months.
This could very well be your problem, in which case it will go away as soon as Autumn begins to creep back onto us.

[NazgulNumberTen]

huh, my writing is always bestin the winter too. i guess i better move to alaska then...
but i am equally insipered by all the seasons. spring gives a sence of rebirth and life begging anew. summer is the world in it's prime. fall is a darkness descending upon us, and winter shows the might of nature. cold winds and snow bearing down on us reminds me that however far we go, and how much we acopmlish, nature still sustains us, and can fight back with an irepressable wrath.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumberTen ]

[Starbreeze]

Yep, good idea NN10. I think I will go up north for my hols, not south to the sun!

[dragongirlG]

E.g. if it is humid or hot you are less likely to either feel like writing, or if you do write, not write at your best (unfortunatly it is the same for people doing exams).
I agree...it is always hot and humid down at the US southeast coast in the summer, so maybe that's why my writing is suffering.

Saxony Tarn: Or in my case, do something quasi-related to the story but in a different creative vein.

Thanks for the tip...maybe I really should get back to that music, huh, instead of staring at the blank screen and trying to write? I really needed the motivation, so thank you.

[Starbreeze]

I was just wondering, do you write your story up straight onto the computer, or do you do several drafts on paper and then type it up? Which ever way you do it, is there a particular reason why you do it that way and not the other?

[dragongirlG]

I usually write straight onto the computer (I'm such a techno kid.) I write down the general idea into a journal, if the computer's not available. I plan the story with pen and paper, then I go type in all the details and literary devices, etc. It's just easier for me to do it on the computer; I feel more free there than if I sit down at a desk and use pen and paper. I feel like I'm conserving. smilies/rolleyes.gif I know, I'm weird.

Plus, I type very, very fast, and generally type faster than I write. It's been an ability since I was a very young child. Then again, I do learn the piano seriously too. Maybe that helps.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Starbreeze --

i used to write longhand dead-tree edition -- but it made editing a bear. Then one story i "composed" on a cheap light typewriter (which had people pegging me at 65 wpm, although not very accurate)
and did one edit, then buried it. Incorporated it later into a larger story, and by then i had a computer in my possession and have not written longhand tales ever since.

Notes, however, i still scribble -- or if i'm at work, i send myself e-mail to home and file it when i get there.

s.t.

[Starbreeze]

I always write it down using pen (actually mainly pencil coz its faster and you don't need to keep stopping to refill the ink), This is for the simple reason that if I spent all the time I spend writing and redrafting infront of a computer I would have square eyes.
Also I find that writing it down is faster - my brain works faster than I can type which means that if I type for the first few drafts I end up missing out lots of good brainwaves.

[Naaramare]

I prefer to type my stories. I can type almost as fast as I think; I can't write that fast. Then again, I type extraordinarily fast.

[Ruthwen]

Typing is the best way for me, because I type very quickly. But I'll write by hand when I can't get at a computer.

Tell me... does anyone else just enjoy inventing worlds, for no particular reason other than to have them?

I LOVE creating worlds and trying to make them seem complete. In fact, I have far too many, and I'm trying to stick to the ones I have. I like religions especially.

As for writers' block (the eternal curse), I have a good way of beating it. Kind of. It only works if you have an idea where you want to go, but don't know how to get there. This magical cure is:

Coffee. Just smell coffee granules. For some reason it really inspires me. smilies/smile.gif

[NazgulNumberTen]

my best stuff starts on paper, then goes to the computer, where i play around with different wordings and chage some words.
and i LOVE inventing words. i am creating several languages, and the first thing that is to be done is to decide what sounds to put in it. but for names, i give sounds meanings and string some english words together and translate.
plus some i just make up off the top of my head.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Back in the day when I didn't have a computer, I used to write everything longhand. You should see the stack of incomplete stories underneath my bed! Yikes! But, once I got one of these, I find writing difficult if not impossible unless it's done on a word processor or html editor. Could be that I like the way the words look on the screen, all professional like, as if it's already published or something. Inspiration comes more readily to me when my fingers can type it out at 70-80 WPM.

Concerning writer's block and temperature: I find that is totally true! We had a drought for the first half of the summer, and the heat was practically unbearable. Writing was pretty much out of the question, unless I wanted to faint on my keyboard... smilies/wink.gif But lately we've had a lot of rain, so now, when not taking walks in it smilies/wink.gif I'm thinking anew! yay!

And yes lmp! A thunderstorm would be the perfect way to fuel our first convention. Think of all the inspiration that could be discovered that day! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lila Bramble]

So many repiles...

I usually dream up my story, write down an outline on paper, then type it up.

Oh, and Saxony, e-mail me about teh chapters of my hobbit-fanfiction!

[Naaramare]

I like inventing swearwords. ::blushes:: No, really . . .swears, curses and other exclamations. Otherwise . . .not so much. I tend to get mixed up if I try to make up too many words. Meh.

[Anna Licumo]

Hmmm. Good question. I used to write everything, but once I learned to type without staring at the keys and searching for every flipping letter, I find I mostly type stuff. It makes it SO much easier to edit. And Lord knows that's a good thing for me. smilies/tongue.gif And yet, I still write with pen and parchment a lot. For one thing, computers crumble and crash under my touch, and also sometimes when I get stuck, watching ink flow into words like water flowing and morphing into trees, it helps me get my creativity back. (That was one heckuva run on sentance!)
On languages: Whew. Do not get me started. I LOVE making them up, dissasembeling words and making them stem from one another, deciding which letter combinations sound "soft" or "evil". Hey, I like learning REAL languages too! (Although I'm stuck with Spanish in school. Why they don't teach Sinadarian, I'll never know... smilies/tongue.gif )

[Starbreeze]

Tell me... does anyone else just enjoy inventing worlds, for no particular reason other than to have them?

I'm pretty sure some people have misread you there coz people have started taking about languages, and I'm sure that says worlds. Anyway, yes, I love creating worlds for the sake of it. It is wonderful to have that much power and to create things exactly how you want it so you can get rid of things you dislike about this world and put in the things that would make it more perfect.
I like making religions too, though I am a little afraid of creating gods and goddesses as I tend to start beleiving what I right too much.


This magical cure is:

Coffee. Just smell coffee granules.


Or a nice hot bath works well.

sometimes when I get stuck, watching ink flow into words like water flowing and morphing into trees, it helps me get my creativity back.

Thats what I love about pen and paper. When you get stuck and your staring and a computer screen it is very dispiriting, but when you have a pen in your hand everything starts falling into place.

[littlemanpoet]

I used to write everything first, then switched to typing everything. I can do a mistake-filled 100 wpm and clean 70. So my typing can pretty much almost keep up with my thinking. I don't like to use disks to transfer my story to my work computer on break, so at work I only do revisions. I print my chapter and work off hard copy at work.

I like creating names based on languages that really exist. That's the extent of my philological adventures.

[Niphredil Baggins]

I just invented a new word, tell me if you've heard it before: seagraphy, which means undersea geography.

[Melephelwen]

I'm a newbie to this thread, so I'll just answer the questions on the first page, then I can go on with page 2 and 3 etc. Hope it's okay! smilies/smile.gif

Are any of you writing serious fantasy?
Yes, I am.

If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?
I've never been. I've been inspired by dreams and lines popping into my head from nowhere, but I've always tried not to imitate anyone. No evil rings for me, thank you smilies/wink.gif

How long have you been working on your story, and why?
I'm not just working on one story, but several. Some are going to be linked later, as in Silmarillion, but all together I'm working on two main Fantasy and a lot of 'real world' stories.
I've always been writing, but I started seriously two years ago. The story was deleted at a 'computer accident' but I started some other BIG things instead... I've been working on my dream-story for a year, and the other fantasy a half.

What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?
I've had a writing block, but I solved it by starting on a new story, so it'd never been seriously. If I run out of plot I either jump to later in the story and return when I feel like, or I start a description of something/someone. I usually forget to descripe my characters because I want to do it slowly and then I get so many ideas, that before I know I'm through three chapters.
And another problem: I can't make the chapters. I don't know how much my handwriting is on a computerpage and I don't want to make the chapters to short or long.

And an explanation to the 'dream-story':
My one Fantasy was inspired by a dream. It's really freaky, started with a banana as a spaceship, but then it slowly makes sence. It's about a people travelling through (time? space? I don't know) and they land on a planet. They started their travel because of a prophecy and the whole story follows that prophecy (yet we don't know how.) There's one child, and he/she gets split up with three different personalities and the people get split as well. I will have to write three stories following each other but still different... and I have no idea what to name it! So for now it's just 'dream-story'.

I can't continue for now, my parents just... no swearing on this site, so I won't let you know what they did. smilies/mad.gif I can't concentrate on Tolkien for the next hours. smilies/mad.gif (And the second I leave the computer I probably won't be allowed to get near it for two days smilies/mad.gif )
Back to continue. Luckily I was only banned for a few hours...

The other story I'm writing is for now just a lot of bits lying all around. I'm planning to make it something alike Silmarillion. It aactually started out with a small quote on a school-book, and now I'm filling my second briefcase... It's not very clear, but it's something about Snakes. Not those long creepy creatures, but humen 'Snakes'. It's really hard to explain, but they have schools, nad they're the protectors of the world. But there's some nomads that are great enemies to the Snakes, and they are therefor treated by the Snakes in the same way that whites treat the Aboriginals(sp?) in Australia. Then they will be saved by a girl, who in a strange way is related to both groups. Haven't figured out how yet...

How do you keep track of names etc. and phrases you like, that pop into your head?
I write them down and use them when I think they're proper in the storyline. And I actually get my names from... well... this sounds really weird... like this for example:

A N N E
f _o i _n
g r _g g
h w e _l
a a _r a
n y _i n
i __a d
s
t
a
n

If I could get it to work... In this case, I get Foin, Hwel, Aara and Nyin. (They're the only pronouncable...) I always start with a name and write countries vertical. I hope at least somebody understand what I mean... My language in this post is really awkward!

What inspires you? Is it everyday things, or something you read, or dreams? Or a mixture?
Lines popping into my head, names, dreams, fantasies... just about anything.

How do you feel about other people reading your work?
I wouldn't on earth let my family read anything I write except essays. They have no sence of being nice. I can draw a person, ask what I can do better technically, and then my mother asks "Is that an Elf?"! If I knew somebody who would understand why I write, then maybe I would let them read it. Another 'future author BD'er' for example smilies/wink.gif

How long do you write for before you feel that it is finished and you can't do anymore without spoiling it?
'Til I reach the ending. I can't tell, I just know when it's done. When I use my writing as essays I mostly get 13 or 11 (Danish grades, 13 best etc.) so I think I can do it okay smilies/smile.gif

Do you illustrate your work or leave it to the reader's imagination? And do you want to design your own front cover or have someone else do it?
It depends. Sometimes I illustrate, and other times I don't. And I don't know about the front cover. I'll see if I can do it myself, and if not, then I know somebody who I would want to illustrate.

Pwew! I hope all of this made sence... Now I'll move along to page two... This has definately been my longest post ever... smilies/eek.gif

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Melephelwen ]

[Eol]

Several years ago before I had my first computer, I use to keep notebooks with writing: short stories and poems. I then built my first computer and it was a godsent as it made it possible to type my work in half the time it took to write( and it was legabile!). Now I have a laptop and it is the most sublime item I have ever purchased. Not only can I write with this baby, I can also type notes for further literary productions!

Dispite my coming up in the world of technology, I still prefer to take notes by hand on paper. Hard copies can never fully be replaced by text files as your computer can lose those files forever in the endless abyss of circits. But it cannot lose a piece of paper that you wrote on(only I can! smilies/rolleyes.gif ).

It is great to see so many people who enjoy writing and thinking. It is too few actually develop those ablities seriously and make something of it, even if it is for a hobby.

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Melephelwen]

Now I reached page 4 ... catching up on you guys! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/tongue.gif

Are you writing fantasy seriously?
I'm not sure what others would say to that statement, but I think I do. When I'm not in school, on BD, doing homework, at work, taking care of my 'social life', reading Tolkien, I write. Okay, that doesn't sound as I'm a very active writer, but I have a bad habit with skipping the homework so I can make time. I also stay awake 'til 11pm writing, allthough my parents keep saying 10pm... I'm getting a bit unpopular at home smilies/evil.gif

What kind of writing do you do?
Everything and anything. The Snake-story I mentioned I am so far writing from two different points of view. Actually it could be compared to Tolkien writing his story from Morgoth and Lúthien's points of view. It's a bad example, I know,but I couldn't think of anything better.

What way of developing characters works best for you? Action? Forced Cooperation? Psychological / Conversational interaction?
Not action... Sometimes conversation, sometimes the narrating voice is telling about them. I did a really stupid thing a while ago... with no explanation(sp?) at all, a blond girl suddenly had dark-brown hair... oops... smilies/redface.gif Now I have a system, I put a coloured clips in my papers everytime I descripe a person/thing, so that next time he/she/it is mentioned, I look what I've written earlier.

Do any of you have characters like that -- that being, characters that get up off the page and exercise Free Will of their own? And do you beat them back down into submission or just stand back & roll with it?
Not that I have noticed... thinking about it, they do it all the time... I just let them, it's probably better. Though I might cut it out again in the editing.

I sometimes have trouble describing things properly. I want to describe things so I'm sure the reader will "see" the place, person etc., but then, I'm a bit afraid of being too describing in my writing, something I think Tolkien overdid a few times. He could use half a page to describe a tree. OK, not exactly true, but you know what I mean, right? If you overdo it, it tends to get boring, and then some ppl will skip through the text and perhaps miss something of importance. I think it can be difficult to find the line. How do you know when it's enough or too much? I mean, I've SEEN the places I write about (in dreams) and I want my reader to see them as well, not to skip pages because my describtions are too thouroughly.
That's true. Another example, apart from Tolkien, is Jean Auel, who wrote 'Earth's Children' ('Clan of the Cave Bear' etc.) In the fourth book, the descriptions of just about everything, 50% not really necessary for the storyin any way, is getting way out of hand. I've heard somebody say, that he/she could skip chapt. 4, 5 and 6 without missing anytyhing of the plot! I haven't tried myself though... It's sad, 'cause it's a really great story, but the descritions ruin it. Tolkien is luckily not getting that far! Because of that, I tend to skip all descriptions when I write, except of the characters. If I write of a house, it's just 'the size of (something)' and I leave the rest to imagination. I might change that later. Actually I think I will. But I'll try to keep it at a level I would want to read myself. I'm not really into reading descriptions... smilies/rolleyes.gif

Btw, I'm happy you bothered reaading this!

[Nar]

Hey, Melephelwyn, you're reading the thread? Wow, thanks. I agree with you about descriptions getting dangerously long and stopping the story cold-- but it's such a temptation when you see it so clearly-- the only solution is to write it out of your system and cut afterwards. Another problem is beginnings-- I just came back from a writer workshop, and we kept telling the writers their stories really began 2 or 3 pages in, once they'd written their way into the situation and the plot got going. It's amazing how much background you can dispense with if you try! Jump into the middle, that's what we kept telling people. Endings, too ... there was one author there (published) who said he'd written an extra hundred pages on his novel before someone told him it was done, right there, so many pages ago. However, he said he HAD to write those extra hundred pages for the ending to be right-- he had to be expecting to write more at that point or he'd have messed the ending up. Whoa. I'm only on page 30.

As far as writing modes, I use all kinds, longhand, computer, including longhand-left-handed-backwards (I'm right handed). That was originally an experiment in my journal: I spent a summer travelling around and writing about all those strange sights right handed forwards from the front of my journal and left handed backwards from the back to see if I saw things differently when writing from different hands-- you know, I did. I saw shapes more clearly with the pen in my left hand but I couldn't draw them, my left hand's too shaky. The biggest difference was that left handed backwards I couldn't read what I wrote, couldn't edit it, was writing into a very safe quiet no-critic, no-edit space. I still use it when I'm blocked and want to do wild and deep thinking. Then I can't read it! smilies/biggrin.gif I have to go find a hand mirror to read out where the back of my mind thinks my story should go!

[Nar]

Hey, LMP, so happy to hear you eluded those thugs, Wrongway and Deadend! Your latest version sounds right to me, like it grew out of that forest from a nice twisty tree root-- and I forsee all sorts of complications!

The first task with writer's block is to figure out which type it is. If the story's still live and basically in the right place, forcing it or using stream-of-consciousness -- I like to type in nonsense curses when I'm not working out my left hand-- that will work. If you've left it too long and the story's gone flat, you've got to start it all over again in your mind. Reread it, sleep on it, then take a long walk or do some other gentle mindless activity, pulling it around in your mind where you left off. You may be working on the wrong story, one you don't feel anymore at that point in your life, so switch or start a new one. You've got to write from a strong feeling you're having now, or it won't flow. You may have a systematic glitch, like editing too early -- editing stops the creation process, so make yourself wait at least 4-10 pages before you review your work, don't, don't start editing at two pages or less! There are various tricks to keep yourself from looking, if you can't look you can't edit -- turn off your monitor is a popular one. I like using symbol font. You may be anxious about judgement/deadlines, /review/publishing -- I'm afraid the only cure for that is to gain higher wisdom-- Ah, I need a drink! Have a snifter on me: (--) brandy, mangojuice, your choice

[ElfEarz]

yes i am smilies/smile.gif and someday i hope to be published, that would be a dream come true! the temptation was very strong but i resisted! it just wouldn't be right to imitate him. but it's so hard considering that i look up to him so much! i wish he was alive today to see how much his epic has effected the world! i know it has effected me and my work greatly.

[Nimiriel]

I know it has been a while since you talked about this but I have been on vacation and would like to answer anyway.

About it being easier to write in the winter: I don't know if that's true, but personally I write much better after nightfall, when it's dark outside, and in the winter it gets dark earlier so...

About typing or using pen and paper: I always use pen and paper for poems and notes, but I always type my stories because it's so easy to edit on a computer.

I also like making up languages or should I say language, one complete language is for now all that I can handle. And Starbreeze, I know precisely what you meen, I also try to make my world(including gods and godesses and religions) one I would like to live in, because I can't help believing (and hoping) that it' actually the way it works in reallity too.

I think that's all for now.

[Morima]

Coffee! I'll remember that, Ruthwen! smilies/biggrin.gif

I always type my stories. The reason is simple: I'm such a hasty person, and since I write faster when typing than writing by hand, I feel ineffective if I don't type. I can't cope with that smilies/smile.gif.

Hmm... I shouldn't reply here at all, really, cause I write more sci-fi than fantasy. No, it's a mix, really. That's my world, anyways, but I have some ideas for LotR fanfics too, and I've kinda already written one, in comic-form. I've been doing that my whole life, that is, creating the world. So it's kinda complete, but I'm still developing it somewhat. I'll shut up now. But it's good to see that lots of people are writing too! This is one of the lengthiest threads on the board.

[littlemanpoet]

Elfearz: Welcome! What's your story like?

Morima: Ditto the above. Don't worry about sci-fi versus fantasy. Some people would quibble over a difference, but I agree with C.S. Lewis (at least about this) that science fiction is fantasy either in outer space of in the future, which are really two different kinds of unknown places of wonder, just as legitimate as a Middle Earth or fairyland.

Nar: Yes, suddenly the whole thing came into focus and I realized that I need to think in terms of Wendell and the Society VERSUS Owen and Aelde at every turn, something I got OUT of the habit of doing when advised to separate the stories (which was a mistake, even though the advice was well-meant and sympathetic).

[Davin]

I have been trying to write seriously for only a few months now, and I find that I always start thinking about Hobbits and everything that Tolkien has created in his books. SO, I have decided just to try to write about events (that I have created) in his world. I am trying to write during the Fourth Age, so as not to interrupt anything that Tolkien has created. But I have to constantly check to make sure that what I am writing is believable in comparison to what he has written in his books. I find that very hindering, and it seems as if it would be much easier for me to just create my own world, and history, and language, and creatures to play with with my own imagination, instead of building off of what Tolkien has already created. But I am writing so that when the time comes that I want to make my works independant from Tolkiens, I will be ready to do so easily. I am using Tolkien as a kind of 'crutch' to get me started.

[Valesse]

what an strange topic for discussion, not really, I would be a strange topic of discussion... -ANYWHO- Yes I must say my writing is like Tolkien's but not as well writen smilies/frown.gif (ahem) ty for asking,

[Valesse]

what an strange topic for discussion, not really, I would be a strange topic of discussion... -ANYWHO- Yes I must say my writing is like Tolkien's but not as well writen smilies/frown.gif (ahem) ty for asking,

[Saxony Tarn]

welcome back to all the returning folks & welcome to all the new faces --

|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) <-- here is the next round of AYWSF pints

(and Lila, didn't i e-mail you already? Hoom hoom, must have slipped my mind -- been rather busy lately! my apologies! will get to it right away!)

BTW i've got just a nitpicky question to raise:

We discuss "the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien" -- IN WHAT SENSE?! Writing style? Plot conventions? Using Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and ancient kingdoms? (i mean, Gondor hasn't got a thing on that original Middle Kingdom CHINA, Heck, after 3000 years, Gondor STILL doesn't even have black-powder. Hmm... Boromir with a flint-lock, now that's dangerous. Lurtz wouldn't have stood a chance...) Using Poetry? Creating proprietary languages? (Heck, Star Trek did that for the Klingons, and who's dinged Gene Roddenberry for aping Tolkien?)

Just a curious musing brought on by deprivation of mead... :: raising glass ::

|_|) any takers?

s.t.

[NazgulNumberTen]

|_|) <-pours self a pint
ok. i the early days of my fantasy writing, it was so much like lotr i wanted to cry. Tolkien created such a vast world, and such an epic tale, that it is next to impossible to find any fantasy story that dose not have things in common with Lotr. i have noticed these thinngs, and have complied them into a list of "uniting factors"
they include
-some sort of ancient evil, or an awakening of the sort
-some big bad dark lord
-a fellowship that sets out to destroy it
-a dark land, full of shadow and evil
-a gandalf like character, some wizard type who is wise and guides the group
some other stuff too
currently, i am revising and changing my work to give it a feeling all its own. and with all tolkien has done, it's very very hard.

[Davin]

I have the same problems, and they're very difficult to overcome. If i get writers-block, I just read over Fan Fiction, or from one of Tolkiens Books and get inspiration from my thoughts when I read.

[dragongirlG]

ST, I would definitely say characters and descriptions...it's very tempting to go and describe your evil place like Mordor, all barren and such, if your plot goes that way. As for characters, the same. A Gandalf-like character (the Wise Old Man) pops up almost everywhere in serious fantasy (I'm not talking about urban fantasy.) I think NN10 pretty much covered it all.

[Eol]

I use to enjoy tolkien knock-off fantasies(Dragonlance, TSR...). Then I grew up. The influence(having a group for questing, having a gandolf like character, etc.) was there for a while until I began doing research of history. It was then everything was blown away and I began creating my own stuff being inspired by history and not by anachronistic fantasy.

Though since since you realize this the influence, you can do something to change: do your research in the era you like. That is how Interregnum came to pass.

[Lila Bramble]

Ah, worlds...

I've created so many worlds...Celestia, the water and land in-habited war land, Fèlice, the land thought full of peace and prosperity while a shadow and a warrior emeger from the Mandarin Forest, and Maenora, the vast world ruled by a cruel king named Hae, spreading the religion of the Devil, outlawing and kidnapping all Paladins and white magic, creating much imprisinmont, brutality, and captives. (These are my most important worlds)

I find that too much detail can be boring, too little can leave you clueless, and it is important to just get in the right amount. I know Tolkien is the best fantasy writer in many opinions, but I find one element in his books (the tremendous detail) kind of bored teh readers, though many don't admit it.

I don't make five pages of detail, unlike Tolkien, for I find every detail can get boring, and most people skip through those long pages. I try to get detail in only when it is needed, mostly appearences of characters, weapons, and writings. Thedescriptions of places are usually in speech, in thought, and sometimes I will set aside one paragrahp for the description of the room, building, or town.

[Saxony Tarn]

A worse "Boring the Reader" sin -- over-pushing an agenda in an otherwise good story (Ayn Rand may well be paying the highest penance for this -- the books of hers that i've got aren't a bad epic read if you're forewarned enough to know when to skip the occasional ten-page speech. "i mean, okay, your characters are intended to illustrate your philosophy, but i thought i bought a novel, not a textbook..." and i certainly am not getting course credit for this, so... B ) )

So then the question becomes, how much detail is too much? Is a page to describe a tree too much if the tree is a central part of the scene -- for example, the Tree that forms the "castle" for Galadriel? A specimen like that may well merit such lengthy detail, so we can see it well enough for the artists among us to draw it.

The average oak in the surrounding forest, on the other hand -- probably not.

s.t. (thinking there should really be more trees in the parking lot outside...)

[Thinhyandoiel]

I think the "imitations of Tolkien" vary from the languages we create to the history of our worlds. Specifics will sound familiar, if not the same, if you compare them sometimes. But I'm finding that quite a few of the people I know have said that everything after Tolkien has been a poor imitation of his work, and I find that quite wrong. Because now, some writer's that I know (none from FWW, just so you know) are limiting themselves in their writing, afraid of doing this same thing, this "imitation" of a great work. And in doing so I find that they've succeeded in not imitating Tolkien, yes, but they're limiting themselves in the process. Yes, Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" might have set a standard, but to say "Oh no, my world must not have elves, that would be imitating Sir Tolkien" is just so much dwarf's bread I want to smack them.
In my opinion, if you are to use elements that have used before, ie. elves, don't imitate the specifics. However, I think some things are a given: Immortality, elvish, etc. Am I making sense? Or am I just being confusing in all my inane babble? smilies/wink.gif
On description, like Saxony Tarn said, knowing when to go into great description is crucial. Describe the elven castle, not the house on your left. You have to let the reader take notice of what your character's are noticing. In my story, I once had my characters emerging from a forest and "there was great joy and they felt their hearts lifted" is what I had at one point. lmp pointed out that emerging from a forest just didn't merit that sort of joy, best to save that for a nice big event later on. smilies/wink.gif

[Eol]

It is fine that you use elements such as dwarves or elves, however you must be truthful to yourself. What are you trying to achieve? Do you want the stereptype? Or do you want to make it unique to your own story? If you desire unique, changing names in refernce to races helps. Tolkien made this mistake. He wanted his stuff to be different, such as his elves and dwarves. Unforutnatly, he did not see that using elf or dwarf would conjure an image that cannot be shaken whether you state that your elves had blue hair or a lifespand of that of his non-elven races. This will stop once you can call them something else other then elf or dwarf.

As to description, perhaps you should look at it as a tool, a brush. What do you want the reader to understand, to see or feel? Description is unlimited if you want to set a mood or setting up for the next scene where there will be action and detail would slow the pace of the writing. Use it wisely and freely.

[Maikadilwen]

Do you want the stereptype?

But what is the streotype?
Eol mentions elves. Tolkien did not "invent" elves. Being from Denmark, I knew about elves before I ever heard the name Tolkien. They've existed in the Scandinavian (and German I believe) folklore for centuries, but they're nothing like Tolkien's elves. They're creatures of the night, mischievous and evil, but still possess great beauty. Or so it is said, because almost all who encounter them is found dead by sunrise. If they're found at all, that is... As you see, "original" elves are fearsome creatures, not to be played with.

Imo you're not imitating Tolkien by using creatures that already "exists" and alter their abilities or personality. If that's the case, the great man himself imitated a lot of European folklore writers...

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[sizena]

yes, i'm trying to write a story. Sometimes it is difficult to be different from other stories like Lord of the rings. In my story i have a queeste and i use some of the creatures from LOTR like orcs and trolls but they can be find in more stories, so i don't care. I also created some new creatures, good and evil. I also use rases like elfs, men and dwarfs, but i don't use hobbits, i think that is part of LOTR so i will not use it. But i made three new rases myself.
I don't think i will immitade Tolkien much, i mean: there are a lot of fantasy stories and everybody is somehow using something from other stories, like creatures or names or whatever.
Sometimes it is difficult, writing a story. problems i had were: time you need for writing, problems with my spelling because i write to fast. other problems i had: finding names for characters, and not using to much names. so it is still understandable for others.
The most biggest problem i have is with connecting two different parts of the story; I mostly write pieces of stories, they come up in my head and i write it down, after that i have to connect it with or fill it in the parts of the story i already have written.
most problems can be solved by take some time, don't care about that even if your story would that take more time than you wanted. Think about what and how you can change it, mostly you will find a solution by yourself. sometimes talk to a friend, that can be very helpfull.
I'm writing now for almost one and a half year and it's almost finished. I'm already trying to find a publisher.
I'm writing because i want to use my creativity and fantasy. I want other peoples to have fun and show them my fantasy so they can join it and think of a world as i created. A world other then ours with strange creatures and items, with magic and mysterious things. I also want to see my name in stores, i think it will look cool and funny.
I also do it al little bit because almost no one of my friends will think i will really do it.
There are a few who think i will succeed and i have a lot of support from them. and that keeps you also writing you know.
If my book is going to be published I absolutly will write a part two.

I hope this will provide some information and help to some of you.

Greeting to all of you writers and LOTR-fans.
PS: Sorry for all the misspellings if any, I'm from holland you know.
PPS: I also write my story in dutch so you will probably never see it.
smilies/wink.gif

By: Narin Stonearmour

[sizena]

Note to my first message:
I responded to the message from littlemanpoet who placed his/her message somewhere in april, so i mean the first hting i saw on this forum.

smilies/cool.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Just by way of a quick reply in general because I don't have much time, a distinction is in order re Tolkien imitation:

On one hand there are the archetypes and formulae of myth and fantasy (which Tolkien used, of course) such as elves, dwarves, dragons, castles, mythic evil, quest, etc.

On the other hand there's the small human-like race of hobbits, the elvish language, the powerful magical artefact to be destroyed, etc.

See the difference?

Thus, Eol, I take exception to your characterization of all of it as childish (I may misunderstand you). The notion that myth and fantasy is Childish is one of the things Tolkien tried in his On Faerie Stories to excise from the mentality of people of his own era, and we hope, later times as well.

[Melephelwen]

Hehe ... finished page 6...
(This post is about my Snake-thing)

How do you handle Magic?
Well, I'm not that far yet. I have magic, but as my main character doesn't know anything about it, I can't tell. It will show up later in the story, but it is not going to be the HP like, nor so much like Gandalf. It will probably be more like mind-magic, uhm you can travel for a day, and with help of your or others' mind you are hundreds of miles away, that travel could have taken years. Described it as h*ck, I should work more on it...

How do you use your monsters - as foils for the hero/heroine? in unexpected ways?
Ach, monsters... well, they haven't shown up yet. (I'm not really far in my story, as some might have noticed) I have plans of some, and though I'm not into the description yet, I have a vague idea, that they might be human-controlled... I will know for sure when the dark mists of the future has passed...

I really have a problem with my history. As I said, it's supposed(sp?) to be like the Sil, but I'm really bad at telling legends, and I don't know where to start - anybody has any ideas? (May find them on page 9 or whatever, but it can take ages before I get that far... smilies/frown.gif )
But now my mum wants my preciousss computer, so I'll have to continue later... (not actually my computer, but we wantsss it, we wantsss it!) sorry, in a Gollum-mood today smilies/evil.gif

[Eol]

But what is the streotype?
Eol mentions elves. Tolkien did not "invent" elves.
Maika: I did not intend to say that Tolkien invented "elves". I am aware of the mythical elves that you speak of. I suppose what I had meant to speak of and was not specified that Tolkien's creations became the stereotype( Tall, blonde and dark haired, fair eyes). People continued to view that as the norm which has become a cliche. That may be diffenent in Europe, I do not know. This should be evident in literature of non-Tolkien relation.

Also to sum my statements to childishness, I had no such intention. Unless you meant something else by your statement?


There had been people saying(not in Barrow-downs, I hope) that their stories were purely original when the plot was genaric and bland and their creatures were a cookie cutter form( Elves were all blonde, fair eyes and tall with attitude that they were superior and dwarves are harsh and gruff, and the halflings...).This is non-Tolkien, mind you.

That was mostly to sum up what I had to do because I had started out that way because of poorer influence( had not really gotten into Tolkien until the past two years). I just wanted to take my experiance of five years of intensive writing and make suggestions to help people assess their work. Believe or not, people are very bias about their work and a great deal of the time will not admit their writting is not as creative as first conceived.

I suppose in the end, nothing can be purely original. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

Eol: I went back and read your other post over again. You were more specific than I had noticed the first time. My fault. Yes, Dragonlance is imho a bit adolescent, though good enough for all that.

Welcome new writers. As to how to handle mythic writing, I would first do a good amount of reading in it. The Silmarillion, for example; or try the Icelandic sagas, Norse sagas, and so forth. The Heimskringla and many other legends are available on-line. Here's another one: mythmakers (http://celt.net/celtic/msg/mmmakers/mmmakers_intro.html).

After you've read a bit and gotten a feel for the rhythm and flow and cadence of it (those were redundancies, i think), then give it a whirl.

[Lila Bramble]

Tolkien imitation may nto be in the story, but if you use the typical description of the elfs (which has been adapted after Tolkien's books) this is what you will be most likely accused of.

Original elfs were small tailed creatures of Scandinavia, feirce to intruders yet gentle among their own kind. These elfs are rarely used anymore.

And it is correct for the most part, whatever the description, elfs will always be thought of the same. I ahve used the word 'elfs' in one of my stories as a greater race of an already existing race, but I might take away that title.

Also, I find dwarfs can be potrayed differently. Like, Snow White had a different approach. And same with Halflings. They could be faerie-size who live in the grass if you wanted them to. Hobbits would be the real stereo-type.

Oh, and for all new members who have joined the thread, me and Saxony welcome you with the offical mug!

|_|) <----------------

[Naaramare]

Current perceptions of elves, as influenced by Tolkien, are a good deal closer to the Irish Tuatha du Danaan than to lios alfar of Scandanavia. ^^

[Eol]

I would have to indefinately agree with you Naaramare. If you even look closer, you might be able to see connections between what Tolkien used to develop his ideas and what was readily avaliable to him. There should be no surprise if you feel like you are reading a greek tradgy or see connections between a hero in Celtic myth and let us say a character in the Silmarillion.

Has anything thought of looking at Beowulf and then compare to what has been written by Tolkien? What can you see in connections or inspirations? Forgive me if this has been asked in previous thread. After the 16th page, the memory begins to fade. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

So Tolkien's elves are drawn from the Celtic Tuatha de Danaan (sp?);
his dwarves from Icelandic/Scandinavian stock;
his hobbits from westmidland English;
his Rohirrim from Anglo-Saxons;
his Gondorians from the Germanic peoples;
his Men of Westernesse from the legend of Atlantis;
his ghan-buri-ghan people from the indigenous dwellers throughout Europe who barely exist anymore outside of the Pirenees, etc.;
his goblins and orcs from lios alfar?
his trolls from Nordic;
his nazgul from his own genius;
the Haradrim from middle-eastern culture;
Easterlings from the Mongols;
have I covered it all?

And so what? Oh, I don't know, it just seemed like a fun exercise to raise the hackles of all purists and detail oriented scribes and hunchbacks. smilies/tongue.gif

[Eol]

You forgot the details from the 17th and 18th century: tobacco, pipes, gunpowder(13th from China), fireworks. smilies/wink.gif

There is nothing wrong with being a purist. Without them, the world would be a pretty vague place. Same visa versa, it would be bad without the rest as it would be too much of an anal rentetive world. smilies/biggrin.gif

I thought the dwarves were derived something else, especially since in the Movie Gimli was speaking with a scottish accent.:P Like that holds any validity to the current topic. It would not personal use the Movie to derive anything from.

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Saxony Tarn]

oh ye Gods Eol -- so THAT's why the Dwarf in my WIP is dropping the occasional "aye" and using his own peculiar dialect (words like "mayhaps" for perhaps/maybe and "afore" for before)

And on the way to the City, he even passed a flask of strong spirits around in a "Dwarven display of comradeship"...

Uff da. Mayhaps i ought to work a brogue into his lines and revise his garb to make his armor accessorize with a nice dress tartan. (but i thought the Dunland folks wore plaid?)

|_|) <-- pass that flask!

s.t.

[Eol]

Maybe, stranger things have happened. Have an elf who talks with a drawl with a cockeny(sp?) accent and his Man friend speaks with a thick gaelic brogue.


*Eol passes the |_|) on*

[littlemanpoet]

Naaramare: Isn't lios alfar what Guy Gavriel Kay calls his elvish race in The Fionavar Tapestry? By the way, do you have any idea what the derivation of "fionavar" is? I see a feminine Celtic first syllable combined with a second syllable denoting an indo-european tribe of the Russian steppes over 1,000 years ago...

[Naaramare]

lmp: he does, but I think that's just because he has a definite Nordic/Celtic thing on, and sidhe has been overused, so he used lios. ^^

Fionavar . . .I'm not entirely sure. It seems somewhat similar to the actual Gaelic name for the king of the Elves (Finvarra, or the Gaelic spelling which I'm not sure of).

[Starbreeze]

I am now very glad that I did not type up my story without a written copy - someone has selectively gone through my computer deleting all my coursework and my story. If I had not written all my story down 2 years of work would have gone. I am also thankful to FWW, as I uploaded part of my typed up bits to there, at least I can recover some of it!

[Lila Bramble]

Well...of origin of the Lord of the Rings races I know not much of, for I am still reading The Return of the King and have not had enough time to research throughourly Tolkien or the book.

Also, a question for all of you has been picking at my mind. When you are writing, you usually have so many ideas you want to write several different stories. But you can't be focusing on more than one, so what do you do with all your ideas? Keep them for later, or is there fear that you will forget your ideas or stroke of creativity?

And a problem that I have personally. I am a huge fan of anime (japaese animation) and manga (japanese graphic novels.) I sometimes use the elements from these, as I write and draw manga as a hobby, and it shows up in my fantasy works. This is probably one of my bigger faults in my stories instyead of using the usual fantasy style (though there is no 'correct' style.

Would combining a little of my manga elemnts be a bad thing for my serious fantasy works? I know I have alrewady combined fantasy with my manga and it has been okay.

[Maikadilwen]

But you can't be focusing on more than one

Says who? smilies/biggrin.gif
I'm working on 3 (yup!) different stories that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Though one IS my main project, I still work on the other two whenever I get the chance. Which isn't very often for the time being... smilies/frown.gif

[littlemanpoet]

I agree with Maika, Lila. Whatever elements make up your particular soup of story, are yours. Write and draw whatever comes to you do write and draw, and do so unabashedly. Come revision time, then you start cutting out what won't work for that particular story.

Whenever you get an idea, write it down! You never know when it'll come in handy.

[Starbreeze]

I am working on two stories, and have ideas for at least another 5 written down. I find that once I have created a world and possibly a history, all sorts of scenarios pop up and there is potential for a decent series of books - if only I can get the first one off the ground...

[NazgulNumberTen]

i have bacis ideas for 16 books, with more that will be devoted to the history of the world i have created for those 16 books.

[dragongirlG]

If I have more than one idea bugging me, I just write out both as much as I can, and then I usually choose a primary project for myself. Whenever inspiration comes for either I write it down so as to not lose it, but I like to focus on one mainly.

[dragongirlG]

I have a question for you guys about characters. What are your characters based on, physically and emotionally? Why are their pasts the way they are?

For me, the physical features of my character Ariadne are based on a doll that I had used for a project in the end of May. I did it subconsciously; I did base her hair on mine and such, but normally I would never put tan skin on a character. Then I only recently looked at the doll again and realized that I had done it. Of course, it all goes into the context too; in my story Ariadne has to have these features to make her an outcast.

As for her past, it was easier for me to portray her emotions since I know what it feels like to be a loner and outcast - all of my best friends have moved at least every three years, and my two closest ones right now might move next summer!

I'm also working right now on introducing another character, Aidan, and I based his features on a picture of former Backstreet Boy Nick Carter that I saw in a recent issue of Time magazine. Yes, that's weird, but I just saw the picture and thought - "That's Aidan!" Don't worry, he's not going to be anything like Nick Carter in personality smilies/smile.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

"on what do you base your characters," she says...

oh, does that open up a can of worms! (some stories i couldn't publish w/o the "characters" giving me permission first!) Going to need a big glass for this one!

|_|)

Fodder for the Character Souffle Molds: People i know... people i don't know... people i'd like to know... people i wish i didn't know... people i'd hate to meet in a dark alley at midnight...

|____| <-- toss all of the above in blender, hit "Frappe" & let it rip, then pour the result into mold & bake until it gels. Then eat, or is that, write?

Probably the best example is in the fanfic i'm sort of stalled on at present. After seeing in a sudden flash of insight many salient elements of several characters from others' work that i'd admired, several characters from my own works, and the personality quirks & attitudes of my last three, oh, let's call them, 'romantic interests', embodied in a certain Tolkien-property character, i determined that such a revelation made me eminently qualified to write about this (colorful adjective deleted) character. Trying to write it FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE was sort of a "walk a mile" exercise to make it more challenging.

Other characters will just walk on and suggest themselves without me even having to audition for them. i love those, but the danger with them is that if they start out as bit parts and get more camera time, they may steal the story from your intended stars (for example, Skheel the half-Orc will be rewarded for her patience with the sequel...)

Speaking of which, LMP & Naaramare, i know you're both busy, but when you have a chance i'd love to get your input on that story (and i know i gave both of you the link) as i'm expecting to get two radically different yet equally logical interpretations from you...

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

ST: Yes, I've been thinking about it every time I see the internet icon for it on my desktop, and say to myself, "I really need to look past page 2 of that sometime." The one time I started it I was overtired and well, I went to bed after 2 pages. Please accept my heartfelt apologies for watching too many videos (4 to 6 hours per week) with my better half. I owe Naaramare my review of her ch. 2 and Araleithiel my review of her revision of something new she's working on and I owe myself a completion of my revision of my own ch. 3. You're up after that. Okay?

dragongirlG: Quite an interesting question! Okay, in my new lizardbrain story, since it's based on dreams, I guess you could say every single character is a reflection of some aspect of myself or my memories of family, friends, etc. That's pretty much the case for TID also. O., (seeker of adventure and "something more")and W., (self-esteem problems and seeking personal meaning) are two sides of me, but O. is a little bit of my oldest brother, for obvious reasons. They look nothing like me or my brother, though. G.'s firey red hair is just because I have a thing for red hair. Long red hair. Mmmmm! P. (intelligent, sensitive, perspicacious) is based on a college lady (kind of an old flame) from long ago, and also on my wife. Strange blend, that. Megan (Celtic, musical, deep) is positive anima. Melanie (willful, strong, smart and cruel) is negative anima. Dr. W. is an old college prof. whom I really liked. R. (loyal, wise, virtuous - he'd make a great knight) is kind of based on a friend, but only his happier qualities. Hmmm, does R. have any weaknesses? Only Aragorn's kind as JRRT describes him between Moria and the Falls of Rauros.

So what about Tolkien? What were the bases for his characters? A self professed Hobbit, I'd say there was a plentiful tithe of Bilbo and Sam in him, even some of the Gaffer. Did he base Gandalf, Aragorn, or any of the other LotR characters on people he knew? Or were they products of his keen, deep, and wide imagination?

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Naaramare]

::hides from both lmp and Saxony:: Ermmmm . . . I have an excuse! I really have MEANT to read and review at least six hundred different stories, but what time I haven't been working has been absorbed by MYST: Exile or writing random BrM based vignettes (which can be found at first link below). Bad Naaramare. ::hangs head in shame::

As for where do my characters come from . . .well, a lot of them come straight out of real life, and a couple are real-peoples' ideas of their ideal mates that I've then gone and seriously messed about with. ^___^

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Naaramare ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Hmmm Fionavar this is actually quite similar to the pronouncation of Finnabair (The daughter of Queen Maedb of Connacht) she was the one who "convinced" all those warriors to fight CúChulainn in single combat

[Lila Bramble]

Yay! Character questions! I love my characters!

The physical descriptions of my characters ALWAYS come from my friends. For example, Lila looks like me a few years back bfore I went into the gothic look. Ardanansa, Boranielle, Iris, tigerlily, Esmerelda...they're appearences come from people I know so making their descriptions will be easier to create.

As for the personalities, I don't do the same thing. I always make compatible and non-compatible personalities. I always make rivals (two people who NEVER get along, who most likey never will,) the two ones who feel an attraction that are always together, the close friends, and the ones who like each other but won't admit it (loosely in child's words.) Tehn each of these characters cross groups and make oridanry friends for the most part, and always make the characters human (ie, quarrels, fights, love.)

[Starbreeze]

Hmm, characters eh? Well, all in all they are based on my friends or other people I know. I don't know if this is wise, as it does cuase problems when it comes to killing them off, and I won't be able to say at the front of the book " the characters in this book bear no resemblence to real people living or dead, and any likeness there of is purely coincidental" - but even if I try not to they still end up like my friends.

[Feanaro]

It doesn't matter so much if they are or aren't based upon people you know, so much as whether it's known that the characters are based on specific people. Let's face it, inevitably some of our characters are going to take on the characteristics of the people we see everyday in our lives.

[Saxony Tarn]

Ah, LMP & Naaramare, you're both heartily forgiven (given that my Monday evenings are being usurped by a different group, this one with more homework, but it's for my job so i'm not complaining!) -- !! (and then there's Bor'chan, who has been siphoning my creativity off the story, but that's been quite worth it. Need to go back and elaborate on that armor-repair scene, now that i've made a mailshirt to scale...)

i too am rather behind in reading for FWW when Yahoo wasn't letting me access files from post notifications, so what i've been doing is reviewing the new stuff as it comes up and as Yahoo lets me view it (it still is tetchy...)

here's a new spin on that character question -- now that you have your character, how do you keep them interesting? How do you avoid your characters turning into Mary Sue and Captain Err-Not, all too perfect people that readers get bored with after awhile, and their counterpart Flaw-Man and Angstina who never show any positive growth?

And that related cardinal sin... how do you resist the temptation to favor one character over the others for unspeakable sentimental reasons that have nothing constructive to do with the plot? (after Goethe's having to cut several otherwise delicious scenes from his first play once he realized that he'd fallen in love with his villainess and was letting her take the plot off on a tangent, i name this malady "Adelheid Syndrome")

:: pouring another round as you share your tales of trials and tribulations... ::

|_|)

s.t.

[NazgulNumberTen]

how do i keep my characters intersting?
plot twists, trouled pasts, ever evoling emotions and relationships. i basically try to entertain myself with them.

[Feanaro]

Check that. Second time reading through I realized my error in terminology. Forgive me, but it was late at night. Rather than having an incomplete or incorrect theory, I have modified and made the proper corrections.

In order for your character to be interesting, you must know them fully. You must have every detail about their lives mapped out. This will save you alot of time in future when confronted with that ever-so-frquent "I don't know what the character should do in this situation." If you know your characters inside and out, you find they will be more interesting just from being more realistic.

Now then, on to the flawed point I made last night. I said a character should have a ruling emotion.. I was wrong. A character should have a ruling passion that drives his/her every action. I think this is an easy enough concept to grasp, but I shall further elaborate. This passion is made up of many things including their dominate emotion and their past. In my previous post I substituted "passion" for "emotion", and got carried away on a midnight tangent.

Want to avoid a Mary-Sue? Naaramare's right. There is no one trick to make your character more realistic--it's more of an ability if anything, and one I find difficult to explain. If this is the one point that you find hard, well, I don't know what to say other than give your character some reasonable flaws--either in their personality or physically. Physical flaws don't necessarily mean lack of beauty and whatnot, but an ability as well. Perhaps the character isn't as good with a sword, or combat in general.

Lastly, if you do favor a certain character (perhaps the villain) over the others, why not make the tale from two points of view? R.A. Salvatore has done this with great success. He shows what both sides are doing at the same time, which really helps to build up the climax/final confrontation, because you already know what the strengths/strategies of both sides are. He does this in a very nice method, by alternating between the protagonist and the antagonist from chapter to chapter. If you do the chapter by chapter method, there is less risk of one character going off on a long tangent.

It is a rule that in every piece of dramatic writing, the main character must change as a result of the developing plot. If the character doesn't change, then your work is not a dramatic story. It is this change that also helps to keep the readers interested, as they see your character grow from the circumstances around him/her.

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

[Naaramare]

There's no trick to writing realistic characters as opposed to Mary Sues. I find I even disagree with Feanaro: no person has one ruling emotion. I mean, look at me, for an example. At times, I'm ruled by love; at times, by anger, at times by fear . . .some people are perpetually grouchy, but that kind of "ruling" makes for very two-dimensional characters (I see it a LOT in High Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery, and it annoys me.)

People. Aren't. Simple. Ever. Your average person is a wonderfully conflicting ball of every emotion that a sentient being can possess, and there's almost always (except in very rare circumstances like moments of pure terror) six or seven of those emotions working at once.

For an example that shall startle some people, we shall take my character, Puck. He's currently being motivated (oooooh, motivation!) By what?

My gods, the list. In one instant, he is being motivated by fear, love, resentment, hatred, unadultered . . .well, puckishness, superiority, amusement and protectiveness.

And this is one of his moments of simple motivation. We're not even going to get into the complex situations.

All my characters are like that, because people are like that. Big, conflicting balls of a thousand motivations and emotions. The person who's ever-so-reasonable to most of the world may, for whatever reason, be unable to see things from her sisters' point of view.

Even my villains hold complex motivations . . .SICK complex motivations, but complex motivations nonetheless (some of the things they've done make me want to be sick, and I'm the one writing the story!) Any time things seem simple, throw in a complication. Eventually, you will be as messed in the head as I am.

As to focusing too much on one character . . .no one can do everything, so to each person the job that they're suited. The Elven Queen is a horrible leader, but a stellar administrator; she does the paperwork, her husband makes the speeches. To each what they are suited for! ^^

[Thinhyandoiel]

I agree with both Feanaro and Naaramare..in an odd sort of combination way. I don't even know if I'll be able to pull this off. Let's see...

With Feanaro's POV, I also take a dominant trait, and this trait is usually one of my many (as am very complex person whose mood changes at the drop of a hat), and let that trait rule over the character most of the time. For example, Deomer. Loyal, chivalrous, 'I stand by my king' sort of knight. In his own country, he'd just be like everyone else, almost a clone. Eck...scary thought, now that I think about it. A thousand Deomers...*muses on that for a moment* Still a scary thought. Don't think I could handle that, no matter how I love the guy. Anyways. Where was I? Ah. Place Deomer with much more complex character such as Aven, and I have oodles and oodles of material to work with. Keeps Deomer's character from going stale, and also keeps the plot moving. Hurrah!

Though, Naaramare is also right. People are complex beings. We change. People change us. Events change us. Getting only 4 hours of sleep will change us (if only for a little while). Change is the key word here. I like to see my characters change, the way they react to different situations and people. It's interesting...and serves for some very interesting and humourous conversations. (ie. my earlier mention parchment tiff) smilies/biggrin.gif

It's like that for everyone, I'm sure. And it makes the story more believable and entertaining. To think any of the hobbits would have stayed cheerful and happy, smoking their pipeweed and reciting anecdotes and singing throughout the ENTIRE Lord of the Rings trilogy is just silly. I loved it when Sam and Gollum were arguing over tatters, or when Legolas and Gimli were counting Orc heads, or when Merry met Theoden King, or when Aragorn met Theoden King's Sister-daughter Eowyn...(random thought...wierd way of describing relations in that country...hmm) smilies/tongue.gif

So basically, to sum this rambling up. To keep characters interesting, I introduce them to other characters. It is people, or the lack of people, who make us who we are.

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]

[Lila Bramble]

One thing I do not to make my characters boring would be not always have them the same. Females emtions can be driven by *that* time of the month, makign them hard to get along with, or making them stubborn or very emotional. That's always fun!

I never, never, never make any of my characters even seem perfect, or fearless, and if one day I do, I'll amke it a cover and their true self revealed in a very embarrassing moment.

The romance always have flaws, and sometimes if the girl gets a little too prissy or her actiosn change preppy, the gusy leaves her for the unliekly girl who always walks in the back.

And sometimes, even enimies can get so frustarted they just give up on each other (ie, Sam and Lila in a later tale not published yet)

[Nar]

Characters, hmm. I think all of Tolkien's characters 5 feet and under (i.e. Hobbits, including borderline cases like Bullroarer, Merry and Pippin-- can't remember their exact heights) were based on real people, friends and relations-- it's just because all the trekking they do over hill and marsh feels so much based on experience. The friendly banter between the Hobbits is so convincing!

I'm not at all sure about the Dwarves.

I have a persistent fantasy that Gandalf was inspired by Tolkien's magnificent spinster aunt who took him on a hike in Switzerland and thereby gave the storm giants of Hobbit fame to posterity. No textual proof, though, that's just my fantasy.

Other than Gandalf, I think all characters over 5 feet (saving Hobbits) were based on parts of Tolkien himself and were inspired by characters in all the ancient literature he read --and also the languages he studied. There's a great quote in Tolkien's letters in which he scornfully explains why Theoden HAS to say 'Thus shall I sleep better' (referring to his death) and would NEVER EVER say 'Thus shall I lie in my grave [more quietly]' (approximate quote) --apparently a warrior king of Theoden's time would literally think of death as sleep and only a maudlin modern would dwell on 'poor me in the cold ground.' That's a complex character point-- impressive, isn't it? --and it seems to be based on what Tolkien read of old kings, Anglo-Saxon and such, and what he had absorbed of their thinking.

As for my own technique for character, I'm just going to quote myself from a post elsewhere:

I often start a character with a real person I've met-- just as a seed, to start with a piece of reality-grit in all its stubborn, surprising integrity. Sometimes more than one person. Once I've got my bit of grit, I begin smoothing in the rest of the character around that bit of real-person grit as I write the story. This smoothing largely comes out of some aspect of my personality because I 'm the one writing the character's actions and dialogue, I'm running his/her reactions to the current situation in a corner of my mind and writing down the results of my character-simulation. So it's my own mind, a part of me, filling in the rest of the character around the original bit of grit. Hopefully I end with a pearl, but you never know!

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[NazgulNumberTen]

all of my characters are based off of real people. they are...
Drayken: Me. ok, not really me, a darker version of me who my dramatic ramblings have been replaced with a lifetime of pain and suffering.
Talidor: my 5th grade teacher. He was acually the one who started my writing. this character is my homage to him.
an as of yet unamed bard: My 8th grade history teacher, a link to the past.
Kaius: My friend chris. his inner intellagence is shown in this character and his wild side is refected in the son of Kaius, Kairen.
there are some more too, but im gettintg pretty tired smilies/biggrin.gif
all names copyright nn10 2002. smilies/biggrin.gif

[littlemanpoet]

I like Feanaro's distinction between emotion and passion, which makes Naaramare's comments regarding character complexity most agreeable, as well as Feanaro's ruling passion idea. In TID, O. wants to live life BIG and REAL and ZESTY./ W. wants to build an identity./ G. want to - well, I ain't tellin' yet./ R. wants to grow in wisdom./ P. wants a strong and blossoming marriage with O./ Mg. wants to be in Aelde./ Ml. wants to RULE!/ Dr.W. wants to get save Aelde for the good guys. But the emotions run the gamut.

[Lila Bramble]

In my lighter tales the emotions and characterestics I have discussed in earlier posts are used, but in my more dramatic stories there is war with torn feeling and feelings of abandonment, cruelty, weariness, fear, and many more 'fun' elements to work with.

One of my favourite ideas is to make a devestating and bloody war between two rival races, but in the middle is a cross-race (man/elf, meejah/kala, vammpire/man, ect...) romance that makes things a whole lot harder, espically them. I'm trying to pick between a few different groups of characters to pair that idea with, but its hard because I love all my character! smilies/tongue.gif

I also plan to write a story on a 'vilaniess,' one thought to be cruel but has her own emotional reasons for her actions, but now I ahve to figure out what they are! I have drawn two outlines for her, either a futurestic modern-fantasy vampire or a pre-modern vampire. Hmm...I'd say pre-modern because it would be fun sicne there are no guns and other things to weaken her. And its fun to have a rampaging femal vampire cauign destruction until an assasign mission to kill her leads to an unexpected romance...

Argh! I gotta stop that 'forbidden romance' stuff in my stories!!!

[Saxony Tarn]

Forbidden Romance should only go if it's a cliche, Lila -- if you can put a new spin on it by all means write it! i should e-mail ya to tell ya what evil idea popped into my head over the weekend -- i think that of my two next projects after "Trust Me", one may be losing its spot in line to the other...

Which is after all one way to make characters interesting -- and keep readers interested -- put them in a steady flow of odd situations and see how they get themselves out of 'em. (Not rock after rock after hard place, but at a decent pace so they don't have too long to rest on their laurels and get complacent) It's that sort of "conflict" that reveals character.

As far as avoiding Mary-Sue and PerfectMan, we as authors have to be willing to detach ourselves and actually let -- or make -- the characters suffer a bit. (sort of like overprotective parents!) Someone reading Ace of Cups told me that Kieter was coming across as "too perfect", so i re-examined his structure, found some cracks in him that had potential, and started designing plot complications and twists to exploit those weaknesses. i'd like to think it's made him more easy for readers to relate to (as in, yeah, i know a Type-A workaholic nut like that!)

(and now if you'll all excuse me, Faramir is making a very convincing speech about why his "What-If" story should be written next, and Skheel is showing A LOT more fang than usual... i think i have a character-revealing conflict developing... key to the wine cellar's behind the bar -- !!)

|_|) <-- have a drink on me!

s.t.

(although i may well give in and write it (much like i gave in and began writing "Trust Me") -- it may even give me an even better appreciation of his character by the time he makes it to the screen! Currently i (still) think Faramir was a classic case of Adelheid Syndrome on Tolkien's part (even though i've been trying to work with him in a tale about his bro) but after i've hiked a few more miles in HIS boots and can put him in situations and have readers think, yeah, we can see him handling that event that way, who knows?)

[Eol]

What I have found to be simple is writing what and who you know. Many of my personal experiances have been used to develope my characters. Eventhough those situations may not exist now, they were used to help the character to become who they are now.

I have also used characteristics of my friends and family to develope personalities on different characters.

[JesusFreakBoarder]

Are any of you writing serious fantasy? If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien? How long have you been working on your story, and why? What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?

I am writing a fantasy thatI just startd two days ago. It was influenced by J.R.R. but it isn't going to be much like it. I just get writer's block, but I'm doing good so far.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome, JFB. Have a foaming cup of wonder on the house.

::the brooding bard pours a stiif one and sets it before the newcomer::

%%%%
|%%|
|%%|\
|___|/

(I couldn't seem to get the hole out of the glass so I had to add foam) smilies/rolleyes.gif

If you describe your writer's block, you may get some help from the friendly regulars around here. By the way, what's your story about? If you care to look at page 12 you'll find an index of the previous 11, after which you're on your own.

S'pose it's time I did another index? (agh! it'll have to go to item #26 on my to-do list)

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Starbreeze]

Welcome JFB! |_| on me! (to keep you going) I would only be too happy to help with your writers block, its a nightmare but once its over you'll find that you write better than ever.
Have you ever heard the phrase "a change is as good as a rest"? well, if writers block really gets to you start on a new story, or try a poem, and when you go back to the first one it will really start to flow.

[buttchunk]

I have one page written down of a story called "The War for Hebloht". It looks to be very promising. It was hard to try and not imitate Tolkien, I really like his morals and way of writing. But I found that when I'm making up what I'm writing, it's a lot more fun than a fan fic. If I was writing a fan fic based on LotR, if I slipped up, I'd get lots of angry protests from Tolkien fans. But with writing you make up, you can't slup up!:-)

[Lila Bramble]

I can actually say that writers block is something I've never expirenced. Actually, I'm having trouble with all my flowing ideas right now. I'm writing my fanfiction and my novel and 3 ideas for other novels, and I haven't come short on anything! mayeb its just my youth and I should appreciate it while I can...

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome, Witchking, and happy deadness to you. There are still ways to flub up when writing your own stuff, actually, but that's another story (pardon the pun). smilies/tongue.gif
What's it about? If you want to know what some of our stories are about, you'll find it here and there on 16 pages' worth...

[NazgulNumberTen]

make that 17...

[Nar]

Elsewhere, I was thinking about getting characters in jeopardy. I was saying, sure the hobbits in the movie are stupid, fire on weathertop and all, but no one gets in trouble by being egregiously stupid in the book ... except for Pippin ... but then I started thinking about Gandalf's leaving his letter with Barliaman, who he KNOWS to have no memory, and the hobbits resting on the Barrowdowns (home! *sniff*) when they feel its dangerousness and have been told not to tarry on the way. I can tolerate it, though, because the characters seem to wise up later, and acts of unmotivated stupidity become vanishingly rare. I think.

So, here's the question: how do you get your characters into interesting trouble? How do you put them in jeopardy?

There's something to be said for character's making mistakes that put them in danger. If the mistakes are typical of the character, then he/she is more strongly defined as a character, and it supports those faults that keep a character from becoming too perfect. (though I think quirks also work well for that) Trouble, danger, it's most compelling if it feels like it has to happen, if it comes from deep in the set up, characters, or world.

Random bad luck has no resonance, it isn't rooted in the story. On the other hand, egregious stupidity for purposes of the plot is very annoying! So do your characters come into danger more from bad luck, more from their own faults that they just can't resist living out, or from a mixture? How do you strike a balance?

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Feanaro]

It depends upon your character type. For instance, it would be perfectly acceptable for a ranger or warrior type character to seek danger out for themselves--after all, it's what they do. Of course, not everyone falls into this category. Personally, I don't really have to worry about this problem, because the majority of the characters making up the party are warrior types, or types that don't mind knocking a few baddies over the head every now and then. In this case, the character (I only have one) that doesn't wish to enter the fray, has to come along for the ride regardless, and inevitably gets drawn into the conflict. Is this random bad luck? Yes, but its more realistic. Readers can understand how this wimpy character was thrown into the cold grasp of danger.

As an overall device, using random danger depends on your world. If your world is dark and mysterious, rocked with war that leaves many dark folk roaming around the wilderness--chances are, your characters are going to run into some of them. I use random bad luck more often than not, but I strive to make it believable.

As for the use of stupidity, I have to agree that I find it annoying after awhile. There are other forms of this that I find more tolerable, going along the lines of: stupidity because of _________. Pride is a common filler, or arrogance. I find these to be more tolerable than a mere lack of common sense. I don't use this one very often, but when I do, it is usually based off of pride (but after I use it for a particular character, I never use it again for them). I usually only use this one for the "bosses" so to speak. One character underestimating the strength/power/ability of his opponent, usually costing him his life. I will readily admit that this gets annoying too after the hundreth time, but I suppose the real key to this post is moderation. The balance I would say, is in the careful moderation of the two, using them sparingly, and only when they can be believed.

[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

[buttchunk]

Thank you for the welcome, littlemanpoet. It's basicly about an evil... thing... who's the last of his kind because he killed them all so he could take over the world alone. He leads an army of the regular stuff. Stupid, big, strong savages(several kinds of them). And that's all I've got so far. smilies/smile.gif

[littlemanpoet]

Witchking: You're welcome! have another!

|_|)

So you have an evil he-thing and a bunch of morlockian stooges. Is the he-thing your protagonist, or your set-up guy for the protagonist?

Nar & Feanaro: (Hmmm, notice a certain similarity in the monikers?)

[H]ow do you get your characters into interesting trouble? How do you put them in jeopardy?

Well, since my story is already complete and now in revision number thirteen-thousand-eight-hundred-and-twenty-six, I feel I can answer this with some definition.

My coin is ruling passion. The heads side is the positive, the tails side is the negative. O.'s passion is adventure. His positive is boldness, his negative is recklessness. W.'s passion is personal self-esteem. His negative is passiveness and self-absorbing pride, his positive is ---- hmmm ----- perhaps self-discovery and the resulting growth of character; needless to say, he's in seriously big trouble for most of the story... smilies/tongue.gif

Recklessness and passiveness can cause all kinds of problems, needless to say. Conflict, conflict, conflict, both interior and exterior. It's bound to cause an increase in recklessness and passiveness, or, on the other hand, boldness and self-discovery. These are the examples just from my two main characters. Each one of my supporting cast (which is getting humongous) has hisher own set.

[Lila Bramble]

Jepordy...jepordy...well, there isn't a whole lot in the Lost Tales of Middle-Earth since there's a 'wizard's insticnt's' always in there from Lila. But then again, there are some times when Lila's foolish little hobbit side comes in to play and she dosen't mind herself or anything for just that one second where all the trouble comes tumbling in...

And I agree, having all the times of peril caused by one stupid person cane be quite annyoing indeed. Sometimes I make the 'leader' make a bad choice (just for once((lol!))...) and everyone else falls into the bad situation, or jepordy. Then everyone gets mad at the one who made the decision and then they can't stop bickering enough to try and get themselves out of the thicket! Sounds quite real to me.

And in 'The Light of War' (my novel) there are many times of jepordy, whether its a plot gone wrong, a mistake, or just not a good enough hiding spot when there are ten huge black knights are chasing you, it all turns out into a bad situatin for our holy knight, Locke. And after they make him sacrifice his elf friend to the Devil, boy are they in trouble...

*Ahem* anyway, anyone else have something to contribute on realistic jepordy in our fantasy sories/novels?

[Saxony Tarn]

also sprach Nar:

"How do you get a character in trouble..."

oh, ho -- Nar, whose thoughts on the latest postings of my tale i eagerly await, you have opened a can of worms here. Allow me to bait my hook and do a little fly-fishing.

Basically, given how autonomous my characters are, i wind them up and let them go. i need not lead them into trial and tribulation, they're perfectly capable of finding it -- Hell, in Boromir's case with "Trust Me", getting into the occasional tiff with Iarangol over who exactly is in charge here, or interpreting Rhigellan's teasing at full face value plus interest, MAKING it -- themselves.

Keeping such a dynamic going is also difficult, as if it trades on the same old foil for twenty chapters, it gets abrasive in five. As you, meaning Nar, Lila, LMP & anyone else who's been drafted to read this, will eventually deduce, Denial is a river to dwarf the Anduin, and Bor' spends a good part of the story hip-deep in it, but with regards to more than just one issue, and each one he discovers and deals with is a step out for him. (although you'd think that by about Chapter Twenty, he'd start to notice something cold, wet, and possessed of a none-too-shabby undercurrent soaking through his clothes...) How to keep the dynamic going on that one? Save some of those issues for later by not hitting the reader with all of them. (Okay, he's almost reached the rocks -- oh no, here comes the flood tide! Sort of an, okay, sport, now if you can just get over this you'll be clear...)

Some of my other characters would freely blame their maladies on their luck, but if they ever learned from those experiences & avoided all potentially trying situations, i wouldn't have stories!

s.t.

[Shadowstrife911]

Well my number one rule for writing characters is... "Describe your characters through actions not words". I created this rule for myself a long time ago because I absolutley hate it when an author tells me the traits of an individual.

So, according to my reasoning every event must contribute to the character of the individual and explore some aspect of themself. If the protagionist is going to get into trouble, it is going to usually be caused by a character fault that becomes evident throughout the event.

Again, I can't stress enough how much I hate to see authors sit down and explain their characters in long, drawn out paragraphs. This makes me very sad and destroys the sense of discovery, you, as a reader feel when you find out something about a character.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Eol]

Shadow: there has to be some sort of set up for that character. Without some sort of description no matter how detailed has to take place. Because when the spoke event happens, the reaction of the character will make sense.

It also depends on the author's writing style whether they like to describe everything at once or describe when it is necassary with a gradual cresendo to the climax of the character's developoing persona.

Description in moderation, as it depends of what you are going for. Less detail during battle aids in creating a tempo speed. More detail during a personal situation adds to the turmoil that maybe taking place.


I would agree with the above comments about characters creating their own trouble. It has come to a point with my characters where i know them enough to where I know instantly what they will and will not do in a given situation. you know what is out of character. Most of the time,the given character will create situations for themselves based on the interactions with other characters. However this is harder to achieve with an RPG, as I have learned with much fustration at time.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Shadowstrife911]

Eol, yes that is true but when an author describes the character so much at the first encounter that the joy of discovery is destroyed it kills some of the wonder. I'd say this has become a pet peeve of mine because I don't like to have that sense of wonder scooped out from under me.

For instance, Tolkien's style is something that I truly admire for how he describes his characters. His descriptions are just right and allow the reader to wonder how the character will act in certain situations. Later, we learn more about the character through the trials and tribulations they go through. The way he writes has a nice smooth flow, and he doesn't go on too many rants about how the character acts.

Take Bilbo for example, at first I thought he was just a lazy-little hobbit but throughout the book he proved himself to be a small, lovable hero. (if you take the entire story to be truth smilies/smile.gif)

I hope this helped clarify my position, I'm not sure I'm describing a 'character rant' well enough so I'll try to find some excerpts to explain a little better.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Eol]

Exampled would be appreciated. I have yet to really encounter what you speak of. The detail that bothers me is the the detail that lingers way too long on one item. For example, jake whyte spends close the three pages describing how the soldier got stabbed throught the groin with a spear( or something to that nature) more detail then I really needed to know! That is the type of description I do not want to read.

[littlemanpoet]

ShadowStife and Eol, hear hear to both of you. I think you are both making very good points and not really disagreeing with each other. I also hate it when the wonder is 'scooped' out from under me in a story (nice way of putting it, sh-st). I also think Eol has a point that in some cases getting into the mind of a character is really quite important, if you're writing that kind of story.

[Saxony Tarn]

ooh -- a nice deep debate going on here! Welcome to all the new faces; this round's on me...

As for getting into a character's head, with reference to my previous posts (and the bit of story i posted some pages back) i'm just going to sit and grin while i see how long it takes ol' BD the Stubborn to quit arguing with his ego, conscience, and id and figure out that his objective is to dredge the river. Since it was INTENDED to have its intellectual delvings, my main concern is that it's clear to the reader that those POV shifts are coming from the inside-the-skull cam & microphone so he/she doesn't get confused. Ideally, it should read like you're eavesdropping on his inner deliberations.

Doubly so, if while you're reading it, you entertain the notion that, yeah, that character i've purloined might actually behave in X, Y, or Z manner when confronted with A B & C situations, then i've done my job right.

But three pages of describing ONE injury -- i think we have a new record! (Beat out Tolkien's one page to describe a tree!) Especially if it was the author describing it for any reason OTHER than the coroner's report...

a toast!

|_|) <-- skoal!

[FEA]

>Are any of you writing serious fantasy?
Yes I am.

>If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?
I try not to imitate but I rekon some of my ideas may have come fom others fantasy writers' stories. You can never be too sure where your' ideas come from.

>How long have you been working on your story, and why?
Well I have written many stories but have not completed them. The one I am writing now I am sticking to. I reckon I started eight months ago.

>What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?
Sometimes I just cannot think where to go in the story next, to overcome this I leave the story for a while but not as long as two days. That helps me think and at night I dream of all kinds of fantasy.
Also sometimes, though rarely I fall into the world of Tolkien but I solve that somehow.

So hopefully, if I complete this story it will be a success. Thankyou for reading.
xx

[Shadowstrife911]

Eol - Well, have you read any books by Terry Brooks? For me his descriptions of internal character deliberations (while good) seems to scoop away wonder and become character rants.

Lets compare this type of character description to say mythological stories (Greek, Norse, whichever) and they tend to describe the character through actions. This distinction between "Through Action" and "Through Words" (Not words as in speech) to me is an integral part when your writing. Concentrating too much on character deliberations (except if its what your going for in a more philosophical story) can prove to add a negative aspect to the story.

I just thought of another example, in Return of the King when Frodo is nearing Mount Doom, Tolkien uses Frodo's behavior & action to describe feelings. Becoming sluggish, tired, worn and carrying a great burden are all descriptions we as readers see and then decided that the protagionist has gone through a major shift in attitude.


or example, jake whyte spends close the three pages describing how the soldier got stabbed through the groin with a spear( or something to that nature) more detail then I really needed to know! That is the type of description I do not want to read.
Ummm, ouch. Was this a coroner's report?

Anyway, it may be that I am just a picky person or that I am trying to recreate/rediscover the wonder I experienced during LOTR. But nothing can beat the feeling you have when you know a character through how he acts instead of how the author is telling you how he acts. Its like going on a rollercoaster, the feeling is not the same when someone tells you about it. True feeling comes through experience.

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Naaramare]

Getting into a character's head . . . ahh, the wonders of 1stPersonPOV. ^~ I spend my entire story in my heroine's head. However, this leaves the other characters as something of a mystery at times. Barrels of fun!

[Eol]

For some stupid reason, I did not understand you earlier, however now with that understanding, agree with you stand point.

I have read Terry Brook and think it is a farce! It was good starting it, but then it was not developed well after while, it just place sucked like a vaacum cleaner!

Thank you for the exampled ,they were well done!

As to the corroner's report, the apotasy found that he was stab through the groin with spear, but whom had done such a deed it unknown... smilies/biggrin.gif No it was not, it was first person/third and as it happened. Can we saw extreme pain?

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Cúdae]

Yes, I have been writing serious fantasy for about 3 years now. I started before I'd read Tolkien, so I can honestly say that nothing I write is copying him in any way. I have elves, but they incredibly different. I have dwarves, but they are more garden gnome-ish. I have humans, and well, they're human. I also have my people, the Ynara Nahal. They are my biggest pitfall, I think, because they are the oldest people, created by the gods to rule over the feuding elves and greedy humans. They are aided by my dwarves, who are pure of heart. But as I continue writing, I realize that they are too perfect, so I am corrupting them. Now, the largest fault of the immortal Ynara is that they are too willing to deal out death.
One of my biggest problems was cursing the Ynara--with something. The something was I couldn't think of, so I read a few more books and tried to collaborate and draw from them. The result was mortal weaknesses. Meaning, they can be killed or poisoned or become ill. But they are still the Ynara in my universe.
My plot was also extremely hard to make. It was almost ridiculous to create. At first I started with a girl, born to mortal parents, buit immortal herself. Then I scrapped that and went with the idea of a servant messenger, Ashon. His task would be to take the Dark Knife created by a fallen dark lord and cleanse it the waters of the River Newval, in the land of the Dead.
Besides that, I want my story to stand out. So I am creating a story in which good will fail and evil prevail. That's another problem for me, I need to make the consequences of evil winning this whole whatever and make it believable today. Yeah, just a little confusing.
My other problems were language, culture, time, and races of people. The languages I have started. The language of the Ynara: Siltic, of the dwarves: Mullan, of the elves in the north: Ywerae, the elves in the mountains: Talik, and the elves in the sout kingdom: Ylmar. Siltic is almost complete, as is Ywerae. I am letting the cultures evolve themselves.
Overall, my largest problem has been the backbone. The history is a problem because in my world that I created, I see different places. The places the gods created without any stain on them, but the Ynara, Elves, Dwarves, and Humans stained. It's all getting very confusing and it doesn't help that I'm a very unorganized person! smilies/smile.gif

[Saxony Tarn]

Re: Character Rants:

Eol & Shadowstrife, i really like that term. May i quote you?

:: sends drinks your way until you're happy and agreeable ::

Good! Many thanks! (Now to go back and edit BD to make sure he's not crossing that ranting line on his way through Purgatory -- about the only premise where such a technique would be called for, methinks, but still, in order to be effective, shouldn't be overdone...)

Hmm... overdone...

A friend of mine had a character in a graphic novel she wanted to draw whose motto was "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing". But more often than not, it's not.

Anyone got any infamous examples of Overkill on an author's part that they'd like to advise us to avoid? That three-page-injury is a good start...

s.t.

[Eol]

*Eol accepts drink gladly!*

Well how about a ten page *graphic* love scene( graphic as in porn graphic)? Mind you this is not a romance novel. This is a story about people traveling. The above mentioned scene terribly disrupted the flow of the story. This happened not just once, but multiple times! Forgive me as the book and its author has escaped me.

You can use whatever you want, but be kind!

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Woof!

i think we have a strong contender for what i'm going to term the Rand Award in honor of her ten-page speeches that many readers confess to skipping (rants by characters?)

Anyone else have a contestant in the Enough is Too Much Freestyle Open?

s.t.

[dragongirlG]

Ah, Ayn Rand. Her books are massive.

I personally cannot confess to having skipped anything in a book. I try to read everything and if I fall asleep doing so I go back and reread it when I have more consciousness (I usually read right before I go to bed -- ah, I'll never forget that time I fell asleep reading The Scarlet Letter and fell in love with the book afterward. Anyway....) The only skip I can think of is that time when Winston is reading out Goldstein's book in 1984, hmm... (sorry if I spoiled anything)

Re characters in trouble:
I just, er...this may not be exactly what the topic is, but may I quote Naaramare from a few pages before?
People. Aren't. Simple. Ever.
The situations really depend on the characters, don't they? And if you make your characters complex (even just a little bit) something will happen, a situation must occur in some way. So...if you have really great characterization (of course this is a matter of opinion) then the situations will be well-written, right? If you don't keep the characters simple or trite then the situations won't be too cliched, and the egregious stupidity and Mary-Sueism won't occur.

Sorry if this way off-topic or what...

P.S. Welcome to all the new members! I hope to hear from you all in the discussions!

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Lila Bramble]

As some of you MIGHT have guessed, this discussion about charactersis making me so excited, becayse most of us here who read my posts know I love my characters!

I love how Saxony gets into POV's, but I'm usually the one who gives little tibits of thoughts rather than going inside their head. I like (before said) for the actions to show how they feel, and most of my characters are emotional, so its fun. And with characters like Sam and Lila (fanfiction) you get to let them speak everything they think, and this way you release a bit of their own personality while unleashing the character's they're speaking to by their reaction.

I wouldn't go into a few pages about their personality, before said, its not very fun to read, and you must always put yourself in the readers posistion. So while you might explain reasons for different actions your characters perform, it isnt great in many opinions to create a perfectly all explained personality.

[Shadowstrife911]

i think we have a strong contender for what i'm going to term the Rand Award in honor of her ten-page speeches that many readers confess to skipping (rants by characters?)

Anyone else have a contestant in the Enough is Too Much Freestyle Open?


I can't recall the specific name of the book but one of Frank Herbert's Dune books could be a fierce contender. One of them is practically all focused on the philosophical and less on plot. Although I believe this is what Frank was going for with this installment of the series. (Unless he went crazy during this time in his life?)

[Tirned Tinnu]

Shadowstrife911- I believe you are right. Herbert was writing to establish the philosophy and politic of Dune, and disregarded his characters most of the time. I disliked that style. It's the one and only time where I actaully skipped portions of a book! I looked for the word "Harkonnen" and skipped the spots where I saw the family mentioned. I was much more interested in Paul, and Duncan...

How do you think Paul's character faired in the last book? I felt that he was turned into a monster, emotionally as well as physically. That didn't sort well with me. I couldn't understand how Paul's mentality could change so vastly! How did he go from an adventurous boy to an obnoxious worm? Was it the Spice affecting his mind? Why didn't it do so earlier in the series? Why so arrogant, so late?
Ah....one day perhaps I'll know the answers. Now you've got me wondering if I should reread the books again. (NO! Auugggh! I have my hands full just catching up on 10 the last years of Tolkien books! *gasp* <<<Thud>>>.)

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to AYWSF, Cudae and Tirned Tinnu! Have a cup of wonder on me.

|_|) <-----

Cudae: I can relate to most of the troubles you've been running into. Just one remonstration: are you sure you want to go the route of evil winning? That goes against the very nature of fantasy, as explicated by Tolkien. Fantasy at its best leads us to eu-catastrophe, that is, the sudden reversal from everything being grim and tragic to, against all odds and against all the evidence, the good and the right and the free being saved from slavery and destruction. To have evil win is to create tragic drama. All the rules are different. Just my 2 cents.

As for the Freestyle Rand Award, how about Stephen R. Donaldson for taking us back into the self-absorbed "I can't do anything about this, I won't do anything about this" broken record of Thomas Covenant's thought life? Granted, he didn't spend tend straight pages on it but he would go half a page to a page on it over and over again until you just got sick of the guy and wanted him killed by the next Urvile.

[Eol]

If the author did not intend to annoy the reader with the dialoge, then it is a bit of overkill. A contender of the rand award. In a way I look forward to see more, but at the same time, I do not. It is said to see this in published writer let alone ameuters.

[Saxony Tarn]

LMP -- Covenant gets an Honorable Mention at the very least for that! i read the first of that series at about the same impressionable time in my life as i was reading Tolkien, ElfQuest (not the fic here, the graphic novel), Conan, Elric... and i do remember the guy's initial reticence to being a hero...

Uff-da! You mean it lasted ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE SERIES??? no wonder i never finished it...

B)

You've got the com, Sulu -- i'm headed out for vacation!

[Lila Bramble]

Well, its official, I'm writing a novel. I know for sure I'll be editing a lot since I'll learn more as I write, but its all a part or writing. Its titled 'The Light of War,' but that might change. If anyone wants to know about it, I can post a description.

Also, I was wondering, has anyone here actually had a novel publish? If they have, would they share the length and difficulty of the process of publishing?

[littlemanpoet]

Lila, I think we're all aspiring here. But I went to a writers' conference back in April and posted what I learned about publishing on this thread. Look on page 1, April 21, 2002, 8:06 a.m. Hope it helps.

[Morquesse]

Greetings, people! smilies/biggrin.gif I have not posted here in a while, but I am back! And I am actually writing a little bit now, and I have a question: how do you write a bit, like as if the character saw something for a brief moment (or saw something that he did not realize was there), and make where it startles the reader? You know, like a jump scene in a movie?
Thank you, smilies/biggrin.gif
~M

[Eol]

Now that is the 64,ooo dollar question. What I have done to think of an opening as a painting or a piece or artwork. It starts out blank and build it up with colors.

What type of mood do you want? The type of words have "moods" attached to them. Example, describe a ripe piece of fruit. You can sweet or you can say sucullant. It can also be as rotten or shriveled.

Words can also be used to dictate pace. The fewer the words, the fast the pace. Too much detail can bog the pace. Example: Joe drew his sword when threated by another soldier. Charging he brought his blade down on the green clothed shoulders of the enemy.....

another example: The deer froze in step. Its large dark eyes focused on the man unsure whether it was friend or foe. The late afternoon light flitered through the trees dappling the dark coat with white spots as though it was a fawn. A small rack of horns had a few scraps of velvet dangling exposing the newly harden bone grow underneath....

This help?

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

Morquesse: I actually have this in the first chapter of my story. I described the thing from my protagonist's perspective, described a little bit more to explode the first perception, then describe the reality which shocks the protagonist. He expects to see a fish in the water, and it does resemble a fish after a fashion, but turns out to be hair, and beneath the hair is....

[Morquesse]

Thank you very much, Eol and lmp! The suggestions did help, though I am thinking that I need to experiment with them.
Thank you, smilies/smile.gif
~M

[Eol]

Glad to be of service! Writing is always a continous experiment. Always trying to find the right combination of words to create the right mood at the right time.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Saxony Tarn]

well said!

about the only thing i could add, Morquesse, is that TIMING IS EVERYTHING.

by this i mean that, at the end of that description is something you're not expecting. Example of something like this, i have in my fanfic 'a certain Tolkien character' believed dead but actually returning home alive, climbing up the last stair to find the door to his chambers barred. He & his companions remove the bar and i proceed to give a brief overview of the layout of the suite... then hit you at the end of the paragraph with the "minor detail" that all the furnishings have been removed. (Gee, Boromir, they're really happy to see you, aren't they?) This then allows me to have them go search that level for a storeroom, and i can space my description of the furnishings over their extracting them from storage and setting them up (so as not to qualify for an Overkill award) while a certain other Tolkien character gets in a few good lines and yet another waits for his cue to drop in on his way down from a palantir-gazing session and demand to know who's causing all this racket.

In 25 words or less, set up the environment in which we're liable to overlook this little technicality, then hit us with it. Once we've stopped reeling, you can expand on it at your leisure. Of course you don't want to overdo this technique with the wrong audience -- some more fragile readers may get whiplash! Me, i have a large collection of Sapir & Murphy's Destroyer books (the literary equivalent of unfiltered smokes and moonshine) so i'm quite used to it -- and you can probably quess that they're old hands at this trick.

s.t.

[Nar]

Yes, excellent technique, ST, describe it when you need it, and unleash regular tricky author maneuvers to make sure the reader stays alert. Heh heh heh ... the author sneaks up on the peacfully meditating reader ... just HAD to try out that taser, didn't you! The startle reflex: work that heartbeat! Beats aerobics.

I've got a question. I was just posting about the orcs, who I've always felt very sorry for-- the uglies just had no chance-- how is an orc supposed to reform? Orc to Elf archer: 'But I'm a GOOD orc!' Elf archer: '*twang!* You are now!' (Yes, I know, technically, elves are supposed to accept surrender. Still doesn't mean they'd listen to the higher aspirations of an orc.) Sauron, on the other hand, I don't feel sorry about at all-- 'Oh, the poor misunderstood godlike maia, he just couldn't help but sew wanton malice and mayhem. Boredom is SUCH a terrible thing.' --no, I don't think so.

So, what do you think, is it better to have a purely hateful villain, or a villain with reasons (like being MADE wrong) that readers can feel somewhat sorry for? Would you rather have both types? We've touched on this in previous pages of this thread, (Nazgul Number Nine was eloquent on shades of grey in a character), so let me extend the question: What TYPES of reasons to go wrong or stay wrong would you buy in a bad guy?

[Saxony Tarn]

Industrial-strength Can-O'-Worms, eh Nar?

given what grey-shaded guy i've been dealing w/ lately, i'll hold my reply on the villainly virtues until others have had a chance.

i will however cast a vote for two fistfuls of the 'bad guys' from the Destroyer, such as their delightfully reuseable Mafia dons with their individualizing idiosyncracies (Don Pubescio and the eternal oil-stained bag of REALLY HOT chili peppers he is always snacking on, even in the limo) as well as several dozen lower-level operatives who step over to the Dark Side of the Force for any number of motivations and get one last too-brief chance to consider the error of their ways before getting squashed in some picturesque manner (you could say, anyone Remo doesn't kill in this book has to come back for at least one sequel!)

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

Nar: This comment probably belongs on the thread you named, but it may bear on this discussion: ever consider that orcs like being orcs? For the sake of comparison, I remember the bullies back in all years of school prior to college - yes - maybe they had psychosomatic and social reasons for why they were the way they were, but could it possibly be that they just liked causing trouble, pain, humiliation and all that? That keeps me from pitying orcs. Haradrim are another matter.

By way of a more general reply, I prefer to have both kinds of villains, and do in my story. M. is the shaped villainess, L. is the arch-villain.

The types of reasons depend on the story. I can't imagine what more could be said. I'll have to leave that for better minds than mine.

[Anna Licumo]

I think the most interesting type of villian is one you can agree with. For instance, Magneto in X-Men. He saw how some humans could not deal with other "races" and this shaped how he thought the Mutants should deal with things. You can understand his motives, even in some dark corner of your mind agree with them. Another example might be Karl Marx. If you've had the chance to read some of his writings, you start to almost agree with the guy....

That's why I can get sick and tired of the "Dark Lord" stchik. Granted, Tolkien did it, but he did a very nice job and at the time it was rather new. Or at least the phrase was. Now a Dark Lord, rising or falling, is popping up like dandelions in summer. Sometimes the aspect can even ruin a story for me. It really depends on how they write it.
For instance, telling a time when they are *under* an evil warlord is interesting, just because it's not that common. Or when the author starts off with describing the evil things he has done, rather than just mention he is an Evil Dark Lord of Doom.
To me it makes him (or her) more *real* and interesting.

Just my two cents. smilies/smile.gif

[NazgulNumberTen]

i dell deeply into the villians of my works. sometimes i treat them as i would the hero.
oh, and i love your sig, my nazzy-mom used to sig it to me when i was a baby in barad-dur.

[Eol]

The type of villains I like are the ones who are not obviously villians. Good and evil are simply based on point of view.

I cannot think immediatly of an example of this, but I have only seen it a few times. Everyone has their priorities and reasonings. So technically speaking, everyone is a villian and a hero at one time or another, depending on your view.

If I had to choose a villian I liked, that would be the sheriff of nottingham in the kevin cosner's Robin Hood, prince of thieves. that is a fun movie!

Book wise,I would say the mists of avalon as everyone brings their own good or evil. They are their own worse enemy, sorry for the song referance.

[bombur]

I think Robin Hood is a great example of the nature of villainry in general.

Most of us who have red it spend most of us thinking Rickhard the lionhart to be a great king and prince John to be the villain. It may come as a shock to study history and learn that Rickie-boy was brutal, flippant, irresponcible, dishonest in negotiations... and as statesmen and kings go he was worthless. Prince John took over after him and he was the responcible of the two brothers. He spent decades restoring the state funds Rickie squandered on the holy land and making up with the countless enemies Rickie had made. Rickhard the lionhart did not even look like Sean Connery. He was short and fat. smilies/eek.gif

I am one to vote for magneto too. smilies/wink.gif Moreso as in similar situation most of us would have little scruples of taking human life while he has plenty.


Janne Harju

(BTW: who the ****, *****, ****** gave any of you the right to pinpoint Karl Marx as villain... are all people in this site from US?) smilies/mad.gif

[Nar]

Bombur, welcome to the thread! Have a mug of ale on me: |_|) Yep, King John had the thankless task of mopping up after a profligate -- everyone likes a big expansionist spender, loot for all! No one ever likes the next guy who has to balance the books.

Magneto's a good example of an all too convincing villain, Anna, it's hard to resist his arguments, and his ... magnetism ... must ... resist ... I have to agree with Bombur, villains must be fictional, though I take your point about uncannily convincing arguments: how they work in practice is always the test-- but how can you know beforehand?

Eol: yes, I liked the Sheriff of Nottingham, in both story and all resulting movies: he's always fun. Furthermore, unless you jump up a level and say that the government of Nottinham (and ulimately Greater London) was so abusive it had to be resisted, can you really fault the sheriff for doing his job? Perhaps he was a bit too enthusiastic about be-handing hapless peasant poachers. Starving yeomen should be allowed to hunt game without losing body parts!

As I said on the other thread, LMP, although I certainly agree that orcs were not nice, particularly to captives, and that they preferred to remain so, I like Tolkien's generous characterization of them: he made the orcs understandable in their frusterations. An impersonal, purely hateful Ur-villain is awesome and stirring, but in a story, those generously detailed, all too 'human' villains can be as good or even better -- and better for your soul as a reader, by challenging your humanity.

[Edit, somehow I missed this first time round] NN10-- your nazzy mom, awww. smilies/biggrin.gif I bet she was really dark and deadly!

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Lila Bramble]

For me, villanis are simply this:

Someone whose views are totally different than our heroes, and in most cases, everyone else.

Because of the differences between the 'villain's' thinking and everyone else's, they usally get frustrated and frustration usually leads to anger, creating them to act 'bad.' Because they think differently, and they're in a state of anger, they might want everyone to follow thie rthinking, and want to be leaer of a nation for people to see things like him.

All in all, that's a pretty relastic way to make someone a villain.

[Anna Licumo]

(BTW: who the ****, *****, ****** gave any of you the right to pinpoint Karl Marx as villain... are all people in this site from US?)

Excuse me, I should have made things clearer. I meant to say that in reading his sociologist's Conflict theory you start to agree with him. However, his view on anti-Capitalism didn't turn out so well, in this world.... I wasn't trying to infer him as a villian, my apologies.

oh, and i love your sig, my nazzy-mom used to sig it to me when i was a baby in barad-dur.

Thanks. smilies/smile.gif I actually got the song from a dream... 'Twas a strange dream, involving a Nazgul singing a captured Chibi-Frodo to sleep....

[The Barrow-Wight]

Topic seems to have strayed a long way from its origins and recent posts are of a tone I don't like to see around here. Let's get back to the original topic...

[Eol]

Thank you Barrow wight. Well let us tie this back to Tolkien. Discussing Villians and the concepts that were thought of, how do the villian that existed in Middle earth compare to what your preception of a villian?

Tolkien's villians in comparison to my views do not fit well. Well anything of Saruman and Sauron and Morgoth is evil. Well even using the term evil to discribe the adversary contradicts my views in fantasy writing. However at the same time, in the Silmarillion the advsaries are view much different, more like the greek and roman gods who were definenatly good or evil at any give time. Morgoth is the exception.

[bombur]

Sorry about my part in the subjctdrift. I’m fan of uncle Karl and had to comment. I was smiling while writing though...

Nature of villainry IS part of writing fantasy and especially writing fantasy following the footsteps of Tolkien.

You can make interresting and great stories of basically good charachters whose means, motives, goals and interpretations of society are so different that they end up in conflict. Magneto and X-men are perhaps a story of this order. I love such stories.

But for writing epic fantasy saga one needs a villain so far beyond any redemption that he is someone who eats ones second cousins cooked in vinegar for dinner, enjoys bedtime torture sessions instead of warm milk and announces ones precence by making the walls cry blood. It is tremendously difficult to create such charachter believably. Fantasy is made of black and white because reality is shades of grey.

Methods of trying to create such Evils vary. Howard does not explain why his sorcerers are evil, they just are (and hence thin charachters). Tolkien made it somehow by making it all part of a mystic cosmic order, where the evils are higher beings, trying to acchieve exellence in their own way. For them mastery of darkness is the goal while to others it is mastery of goodness.

In a yet unplayed roleplaying saga, that will perhaps one day be published instead, I made it all into a natural balance thing between personified natural forces of life-death/bounty-desolation/continuance-end of history.

In the world we have plenty of historical charachters with few scruples and lots of bloodthirst. They just do not suffice for the needs of epic fantasy. They may be evil... at least from some pespective... they just are not The Evil. Once one realises this, one sets to create such deserving and demanding fellows more imaginatively... I for one would be interrested to hear how and if others have solved this problem of Evil, and also to hear perceptions of how it has been solved by authors of epic saga before.

Perhaps my provoking post failed to move the discussion towards this. Sorry.


Janne Harju

[Thinhyandoiel]

Fantasy is made of black and white because reality is shades of grey.

Not true in all cases, but true in most, ne? I believe that in fantasy, you should have the differing levels of villians.

Tolkien has his villians as essences of pure EVIL, made to make your skin crawl when they enter the room. (Or make the walls bleed smilies/wink.gif) You have Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Nazgul, Ungoliant, Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, etc. I think it's interesting that there aren't that many sinister, evil, Dark Lord type Men running around Middle-Earth. Do the Nazgul count though? Yes, they were once men, and yes, they are now evil, but they're slaves and not doing anything except for Sauron. I love these sorts of villians, they're so interesting to the story. I like to have that shade of gray in there, because then it makes the fantasy closer to reality.

[bombur]

I did not mean that fantasy must be all black and white. It cant of cource. In Tolkien we have Saruman and Boromir and Denethor, who have mostly just fallen under Saurons influence. There are orcs and trolls and such... who knows if they were nice people, if they had not been TOOLS of the dark wills for thousands of years... how long would it take for those people to recover, if there was chance. There are those willingly turned to the dark, no matter how far along the road they are, easterlings, black Numenoreans, pirates of Umbar, the mouth of sauron. A teenage easterling recruit hardly qualifies as Evil, mouth of Sauron might. Most of theese are not evil in the sence I meant.

There are the pure tools like Nazgul, complete slaves of dark will.

Then there are the big bad ones... the Evils those voluntarily executing their own dark wills. Ranging from smaller of the true Evils, like Smaug, to greater, like Morgoth.

In fantasy there is always degrees as well as in real life. But fantasy (epic fantasy... not Moorcock etc. gothic fantasy of cource) diffrentiates from any even vaguely realistic stories in one thing. There always has to be the purest darkest black and clearest brightest white somewhere. I think this total Evil is exteremely challenging charachter and consept to crate. Thats what I meant.

Janne Harju

[Saxony Tarn]

my my, so much happens when i go down to the cellar... good thing i never return empty-handed!

With thanks to the Barrow-Wight's timely rising from his grave, i'll restrain my own knee-jerk reaction to Bombur's, um, shall we say, bar-brawl-inciting entrance. (i WILL however, hop up on this keg to say, actually, good Mr. Dwarf, there are many folks on this board not from America, or Canada for that matter, which just goes to show that Tolkien, and many other good authors, has a global audience, and now my soapbox will transmute back to the brew-keg that it was...)

But you know, Bombur's got me thinking -- WHERE IS IT CARVED IN STONE that the government in a good 90% of the Fantasy works out there MUST BE some form of Monarchy or Aristocracy? Assuming that at the "barely got society formed, who has time to bother with politics" end of the scale is held down with flints by the Clan of the Cave Bear and its cubs, what other forms of government have been dealt with? By us? By authors we like? And how successfully?

(Tolkien's benchmark of a convincing case for monarchy -- would you as a reader swear fealty to Elessar I by the end of the book?)

But must Classic Fantasy ALWAYS have Kings? Can it be pulled off without them? Or -- perhaps in some late regret for having overthrown by peaceful means or violent most of the Kings in the Northern Hemisphere, does the market demand kings with their fantasy?

(Naaramare, whose story i know is set in the present day & thus under the aegis of the current Canadian gov'mint, is exempt from this one but may fire away if she likes!)

|_|) <-- Skoal!

s.t.
bartender for the dead!

[NazgulNumberTen]

of course not. i have used councils tribunals, senates and the like. i do feel that it is important to limit yourself in government, after all, how convincing does
"Oakenmoon, president of elves"
sound.
oh, and...
all names copyright nn10 2002.

[Eol]

The society I overlook are the ellan who are fashioned more after the roman legal system, if you were to call it that. They have laws and court and head ruler( king or queen or emperor), but they are merely an overseer. The court is made up of the dukes and duchess of the ruling provinces who have the say in national government. There are assasinations, wars and dirty tricks in order to have rule over the region. Interregnum has become more of a political story more then anything else except for the occational scrimish or battle. It is still very much fantasy.

[bombur]

Once more I apologise for my seemingly bar brawl-like entrance... I am often a provoking person. My provoking comments should be taken with a grain of salt and sometimes I just assume too much on people naturally doing so... I also may be a bit touchy for uncle Karl nowadays... Also going to show that all kinds of people are into Tolkien.

What comes to the type of regimes in fantasy, in this I think we are a bit too keen on following on Tokiens footsteps. Monarchy is at the level of technology involved in fantasy the most... I do not know the geopolitics term in english... It is the most able to centralize governance = most able to govern large area. Even roman senate ruled the provinces as military dictatorships. Monarchy is able to create bureaucracy by the system of personal vows of allegiance. It is the most adwanced form of governance before the invention of modern bureacracy in nineteenth century or so (code de Napoleon, I'd say)

I think in this issue history is a deeper well for fantasy to draw from, then Tolkien. There is of cource the Roman type "republic" and greek "democracy." Taking theese in use however require knowledge as they are quite different from what those terms have come to mean.

But also there are historical models often overlooked. The fantasy campaign/saga I have been preparing is set in sort of stumped up Europe-like continent somewhat akin to warhammer RPG's old world. On a central location is an "empire" whiches governance is somewhat gobetween of monarchy and clericalism. Perhaps best historical compartison would be French monarchy at the time of cardinal Richelieu or imperium at the times of charlemagne the great. Exept for the church holding much power this is closest to the classic Fantasy monarchy.

Five other "bases of power" are fashioned differently and I think it is examples such as theese that fantasy should seek from history.

1) Britain circa 200 AD - 500 AD (pre-Arthurian period) = multiple indipendent feudal kings (and their feudal earls, dukes, barons etc.) competing eachother who elect a warlord amongs themselves at times of common need. This is just one degree less centralised then monarchy as one king has not been able to demand permanent loyality of other kings.

2) Italy of renaiccance = indipendent citystates, not needing ANY joint governance as each is strong enough not to be conquerred by external enemies and their ambitions are directed against eachother and not against external conquests. Governance of each sitystate varies from roman republic to military dictatorship to rule of trade baron guild to rule of nobility council. The diffenence of governance is also a fact in making the previous degree of co-operation impossible. One should also remember the all too common mistake in the fantasy rpg's... There are no courts of law in the fantasy period, especially none like modern courts. Judgement is passed by the one who rules or his/her/their servant(s).

3) Tribal governance as per migrations periot tribes (Langobars, Huns, Goths, Vandals, etc. etc.) = without any official system the groups of men are subservient to one absolute tribal leader (the strongest). Only case by case co-operation exists between tribal chiefs. Such form of governance can only last if it is expansionist and strong in manpower.

4) Scandinavian / (irish?) system circa 200 AD - 1000AD = Local chiefs / nobles ruling their clans / lands in all issues including justice much the same as in previous but recognising the authority of a "thing". Annual or semiannual gathering/meeting of the chiefs (and commoners).

5) Finnish / (American indian?) system circa 0 - 1000 AD (somewhat based on assumption.) = Tribes led/ruled issue by issue either by a hero or an elders council and all organised into few nations by recognising authority of "käräjät", a tribal nations gathering, where each tribe is represented and justice is served by the gatherings elder council.

My two cents worth ended up being about meter long -sigh- Thats another thing that happens to me as often as me ending up provoking someone.

Janne Harju

[Saxony Tarn]

Ah, Bombur, so you're from Finland! (Quick, LMP, where's Niphredil Baggins when we need her...)

quite an erudite treatise, that, almost worthy of starting its own thread (like the one about the lack of tech. advancement in ME -- c'mon, ya think Gondor should have movable type and gunpowder by now...) and i think i'm just going to set this keg down next to you. Tap away!

And a few more patrons should have the chance to get their observations on the table before i knock the dust off the draft of Ace of Cups and start outlining the twisted ideas behind the Bundesreich (100% free of Nazi influence, believe it or not) and its functional aristocracy on a technologically advanced planet.

|_|) <-- Now THERE's a 'fantasy' society for ya! B)

s.t.

[Lila Bramble]

((Just like to put in I'm from Mexico, not from Canada or the US!))

Well, in my opinion, if there is complete evil, there better be a darn well good reason for them to be pure evil. Either they were a great pure good that transformed evil (and a pure good that transforms to an evil they must be PURE evil, at least my religion says so) or they've been transformed from just a regular smoe driven by something VERY distrubting to pure evil, but its very difficult to explain who something bcame pure evil. After all, spirits are what gives the body life (blood is not life, plants are alive, but do they have blood? its the essence of the spirit. But that's just my own belifes) and the spirit must've been previosuly corrupted, but again, how?

These are Dark Lords. Dark Lords often have no origin: no family, no past, no childhood, nothing. All you have to write is: "The Dark Lord who strived on nothing but the will to conquer and corrupt the souls of other." And according to my belifes, it is impossible to live without a spirit, so soemthimng must've happened to the 'dark lord' to stir they're spirit to do such corrupt.

Or, as also in my belifes, it could've been one of the Greater Evil Spirit's mingions consuming a new body, entering it and spreading his evil and wrong intent from his previous generation of terror. (I think that there are a select few spirits that were not allowd back into the Haven (otherwords heaven) that re-incarinate continously and create the evergoing evil people)

So to make a simple and fresh 'bad guy', I made a sort of stuck-up and spoiled teenager who also happened to posses strong magic inherited from his ancestors, and abused his power to take control of the grea kingdoms and leading the world to fear, even though they did not even realise his young age. And this boy grew to a 'king' and as he grew more powerful with a growing reign, he became greedy and more abusive. There, a realstic villan!

Also, my writing tahcer read one page of my novel and said "You must be a fan of tolkien." Is that bad or good?

[Eol]

Well as to whether it is a good or bad thing, it depends on the context. Is it writen like tolkien, or does it have tolkienesk stuff in it( orcs, eves and Man, wizards)...that is all I can say about that.

carry on!

[Nar]

Excellent question, ST, and excellent responses, Bombur, NN10, Lila and Eol (on Tolkien-- I say it's a good thing!)

The ethics of fantasy are deeply committed to freedom and fulfillment of duties to onesself and others -- that's why it's always a dictatorial tyrant being battled-- Sauron or Morgoth or their ilk-- this makes the 'one true king' theme seem VERY strange if you think about it too long. The irony is, we'd probably all hate a real monarchy-- no one in real life is all wise and good-- or if they are they probably have huge personal failings like umpteen illicit lovers or something.

I think it's the idea of rules and codes of order and bureaucracy (polling stations manned by volunteer little old ladies) --all that modern debris seems inimical to fantasy. Too detailed, too annoying, no 'sense of wonder' as LMP might say (or quote-- where does that phrase come from?)

Then, there's something archetypal about a one-leader structure of government, whether it's a king or chieftan-- one leader matches the feeling of your conscious soul ruling over unconcious impulses and appetites. In the middle ages, the people and country were explicitly equated with the the body and the king with the soul or mind.

I like all these historical forms you're proposing, Bombur, Eol and NN10. It would be good to see more expansion of fantasy themes away from this 'one true king' thing. I'd like to see someone find a way to see the values of liberty, equality, fraternity rigorously worked in a fantasy with a true sense of wonder. Any good examples that you know of?

The Shire is the best I can think of: noone makes trouble, no need for much of a government, but it all depends on borders secured by others and a society monolithically hobbitlike. And it's not a theme in the story until it's taken away; we don't really see the story of the restoration of the sherrifs to their proper position except in summary. What about an epic fantasy where the plot turns on a quest to overthrow the evil inspectors-general who forced all the brewers to pasturize their ale? The Quest of the Well-Malted Mug!

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Eol]

Mentioning the shire made me think of a small little cottage with a lit hearth, warm food and family. Though I suppose that was the aim of the professor himself...

I would love to see people develop government beyond just coping out with the King. Of course this comes with the understanding that government is not evil and it does affect our lives one hundred percent! Even though in most of Tolkien's books were never really fully see the economics and political strife between households, that can be filled with other's thoughts.

It would be an interesting challenege for someone to develope society and culture with TOlkien's intention in mind, beyond what had been formally written. Personally I would find that very intreguing...too bad that will not be see in the RPGs where a great deal of the fanfiction is created.

Nar: your handle name rocks, and so did your post!

[Lila Bramble]

In a lot of past fantasy novels, it was a knight that had to slay the dragon and save the princess.

In my current work, I have used some of these old type characteristics by featuring a princess, but the princess is an Elf, a more talented and stonger group of evolved humans. The man is a knight, yet a holy knight (paladin) that is struggling to survive in the world that was being corrupted slowly by a society that was forcing people on how to live.

There are dragons too, though they are not an overall important thing in the work, our knight does slay one, and gains a group of followers that have faith in him to defeat their harsh and controlling leader.

What do you think of using soem teh old type methods in our modern-day writings of seriosu fantasy?

[bombur]

Interresting thoughts from everyone.

Nar arose interresting question...

I'd have to say, I do not think it is possible to make Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite appear in fantasy. Also the big 3 of the finn 60's communists: Peace, Friendship, Solidarity are impossible. Nor the more international versions like Power to the people demand can be used. Why?

It is really perhaps anwser to this that makes my philosophical nature obvious.

Demand for political liberties emphasised in todays democracy (liberty, equality, power to the poeple) were linked to the rise of bourgoise, class that was as educated and capable as nobility but lacked their political power. This soon widened into demand of economically equal status (equality, brotherhood, solidarity, socialism) by class for whom daily bread and not political equality was matter of survival, the proletariat.

All in all, we cannot put such demands into the mouth of fantasy street agitator, unless we also fill our Gondor with shirt "manufactures" - pre-form of factories, artsanly sweatshops.

And if we do this, then we give up the black and white quality of fantasy and move into the real world of shades of grey, where good and evil are not so prevalent motive, but rather dialectic conflicts in which various INTERPRETATIONS, consepts of society and its good are at odds.

My recipe for fantasy is this:

Never get into societys conflicts save the odd slave revolt in the footsteps of Spartacus (And I do NOT mean the latest movie), if you do that, you go into the shades of grey area. Half of your readers will be inclined to emphatise with the other side the other half the other. Your writing will come to reflect this anticipation.

Instead make the villain purely evil whether by overwhelming lust to dominate or by some mystic theme. If he eats babies for breakfast, then defeating him is matter of survival for everyone and there is no room for interpretation and you can write black and white fantasy stuff.

And if you want to create a "utopia" society to be threatened by the Big Evil One, then do it along the guidelines of anarchistic tribal society or "noble savage" consept.

Thats what I think.


Janne Harju

[Eol]

What is wrong with factories in Gondor? smilies/wink.gif


Fantasy can sacrifice the black and white and still be fantasy. Who would want to desire to live in a world where change will never happen and indoor plumbing and other inventions would never fully come to pass?

Progression is inevtiable in any society, if it is developed. YOu mentioned random slave revolts, you already admit that factories will shortly follow. The concept of make jobs quicker, more effiecent has been concieved. Why till the land yourself when you can force someone else to do it for you....Slave riots are in essence the same as the demand of labour equality with the Industrial evoluation.

Eol

[bombur]

ahhh Eol, but fantasy need not have progress simply because it is not history, but a story.

Take Tolkien, I suppose between the first and third age humans might have learned to make plate mails and form kingdoms (not a small historical step). There is perhaps some progress. But for a story one only needs a sliced period of time. One year is plenty. It is always a bonus to have history for the story. For most practical pyrpoces century of is suffices, millenia for an epic saga.

But stories need not have future. They end at "were home." If they tell the tale of medieval like period, there will not be factories.


Janne Harju

[Eol]

Every story has a past and a future,whether you want acknowledge it, is up to you.

[Nar]

Oh, thank you, Eol! I think a three-letter handle shows a certain ... discernment, don't you? smilies/biggrin.gif I liked your last post, it was quite poetic. I think a well-written story will often seem to have a future... unless it ends with the end of the universe, I suppose. I heard a talk by an author who told us he was on page 700 of his last novel when someone pointed out that the story had actually ended 100 pages earlier. smilies/eek.gif He assured us, though, that he HAD to write those extra 100 pages or he would have messed up the part where the story DID end. Very comforting, I'm sure ... I'm on page 32. 568 pages to go, then an extra 100, wonderful! Maybe if JRRT had had someone to shake him and tell him, 'The Silmarillion actually ended with Feanor's rebellion, you crazy kid! From then on, it's all postscript and epitaph!' Then we would have had our Silmarillion much earlier! Just as well.

Bombur, you are a very fun poster. Zesty arguments you put up! I totally disagree about the need for a great dark lord and a story with strong and straightforward sides, but I have to agree that that is traditional ... it's just wrong, that's all. Or rather, it's wrong to limit fantasy to a formula-- the defining characteristic of fantasy isn't a surface element of the story, it's the effect it has on the reader.

You don't want to be redoing LotR, explore other emotional landscapes. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use the good old elements-- Lila, don't worry about using dragons and knights, and even ... one true kings, if absolutely necessary smilies/tongue.gif These have been the good old elements since before Tolkien was born! I think that the type of catharsis-- release into new understanding of ... something: yourself or existence, and release of emotion -- need not and should not be always the same effect as in LotR.

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Eol]

Thank you Nar! I would have to agree with you that Bom offers some interesting arguements that seems to give us a good discussion.

[bombur]

But eol and nar...

Of course every moment has past, present and future.

Now has future. But it is clouded from us. We can assume "progress"... or degeneration... or the end of the world by nuclear catastrophe... or just end by god flushing the cosmic toilet.

One NEEDS NOT have much development in fantasy. One can end the story (in wide meaning of the word... "we're home" was the end of the LOTR epilogue.) in the "now" of the story. Absolutely no need exists to fill the historical gap between the end, "now" of the story and the "now" of the real world.

Author can write the story to the words: "were home" and flush the cosmic toilet of the universe of the story.

I believe strongly in stories that have definate ends... ambiguous preferably... but the kind that make sequels impossible.

I PREFER fantasy that is set in pre-industrial period, stays there and has definate good and evil. That hardly qualifies me as Tolkien copycat/plagiator. smilies/wink.gif

BTW: what comes to my story... which is still a roleplaying saga about to be refined to a story one day, I dirched the orcs (and the dragons, dwarves and TOLKIENISTIC eleves, classic wizards and eh... what is there else that ne would expect in fantasy... errrm....) For example there are many variations in consept of Evil. I am sorry that we only explored the surface of the subject. I for one believe that there needs to be the Total Evil, but prefer as story element that it is not usually seen and its servants cannot be recognised outright. This consept might be called "Veiled Big Evil That Lurks In Shadows."


Janne Harju

[Eol]

How one structures a story is the choice of the writer. The option of absolute evil is an option, but is not needed.

Yes, some stories need endings, while others are designed to not have definate endings. Short stories, depending on the author, with have definate endings, some won't.

The way a story may end reflects underlying feeling the previous words. What do you want to achieve? DO you want to leave the reader to reflect on the ending or "happily ever after" and that is it.

I like to write what I know, and right now, there are never definate endings. I also like to write what people can identify with. Relgious belief can define absolute evil in a world of gray.

[bombur]

"I like to write what I know, and right now, there are never definate endings. I also like to write what people can identify with. Relgious belief can define absolute evil in a world of gray."

Well, does that definition include me?
smilies/eek.gif smilies/wink.gif

After all I sometimes speak like a militant atheist. I have no problems attacking peoples religion, if it seems to inspire them to attitudes and deeds I disapprove of (like claiming to be JUSTIFIED to define absolute evil in THIS world).

I have no problems giving credit to some religious people for their deeds either, but that remedies nothing in the eyes of many people who base their idea of good and evil on religion.


Janne Harju

[Eol]

No offense, but this has nothing to do with you personally.

As to religion, that should be saved for another thread that is more approariate to discussion.

All I wish to state is that fantasy writing can be very narrow minded or very open in style. It can be the fairy tale or it could be something more thought provoking. It can be redundant or it can be something new. It relys purely on the preference of the author.

Tolkien chose to take up a more epic style. I chose to do something with a more historical feel, something that could have happened, but never did.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[bombur]

Personalising the perception of religion, I merely indicated that I do not neccesarily concur or even approve of that idea.

What comes to fantasy, I most certainly do not think that there were some ways fantasy should or should not be written. It is matter of taste. Ihave mine you have yours. Neither should condemn the others view. But how on earth could people become better cooks if not by arguing the merits of applepies versus the merits of starwberrypies?

smilies/wink.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif

Janne Harju

[bombur]

What comes to the historical feeling/alternate history, I somehow prefer the "alternate world" approach. Like what could have been if the laws of nature would have taken a different turn. Like for example world may basically deep below the surface function by the rules of symphatic magic, whereas a metaphorical action may actually change real things. Something along the lines that a deed of self sacrifice may save the world even if it is realistically futile. This kind of things are also part of my preferance of black and white fantasy to shades of grey.

This perhaps also explains my desire to keep the story separate from history. As I desire the laws of nature to take a different twist in the world of the story and also simultaneously believe in the laws of the social dynamics and historical dialectics in this one... this leaves me only one option... that the historical timeline of my story has no connection to that of the real world.

This may also have something to do with a yet unexplored question of WHY of the fantasy.

Janne Harju

[littlemanpoet]

My my my. It has gotten lively here, not to mention substantive. Which is great.

Lila: By all means, I concur with Nar, use the archetypes of fantasy. King, dragon, knight, it'll be fresh if you tell the story in a way that is both true to your vision and true to fantasy.

True to fantasy? Well, now, that is a matter of debate, which Eol and bombur have been doing quite handily. smilies/smile.gif

bombur: Regarding the idealisms of liberty, etc., I must disagree. It would not be the kind of fantasy that I personally would write, but I'm convinced that it could be done, and done well in such a way that is true to fantasy.

True to fantasy? Hmmmmm... what does that mean?

Urban fantasy pretty much explodes your hypothesis, actually. Naaramare is writing such a story. It has all the modern paraphernalia, hospitals even, and magic and Elves. Very convincing because it's well written and by the way quite self-referential, which is odd for fantasy. Certainly, Tolkien would never have written it, but that does not make it any less fantasy. I don't think there's a dark lord in it, but it does have its evil power-mongers. So I'd say it's true to fantasy.

True to fantasy.... Hmmmm... what does that mean? smilies/wink.gif

To be continued.

[littlemanpoet]

Wasn't it Samwise Gamgee in whose mouth Tolkien puts the following words?

Something like, "The big stories never end, do they? We're in the same story as Beren and Luthien. It's just that our part will come to an end and someone else will carry on." Not an exact quote, but it sort of puts the lie to (or at least contradicts) bombur's point.

As to the whole black and white thing: Characters in a book should be like people; we may call them "black" or "white" - none of them really are.

... for a story one only needs a sliced period of time. One year is plenty. It is always a bonus to have history for the story.

Tolkien's semblance of history is part of what makes LotR seem so real.

the type of catharsis-- release into new understanding of ... something: yourself or existence, and release of emotion Nar: This is what Owen Barfield called "evolution of consciousness". I wish more people had heard of him and read his works by now. He was influential upon Tolkien and Lewis. I've said all this before, but since you brought up the effect on the reader, it fit.

I believe strongly in stories that have definate ends... ambiguous preferably... but the kind that make sequels impossible. Sequels are always possible, if you're good at it. Creating loose ends for the sequel where there didn't seem to be any is far easier than tying up all the loose ones in the prequel.

On one particular point I do agree with bombur: the need for an evil that goes deeper than mere villain. Especially if the fantasy story is a serious one. Even in not so well written fantasy, there tends to be a yet more subtle, perhaps more pervasive, hidden but potent evil, than mere villain. This is as it should be if one is gong to be true to fantasy.

True to fantasy - hmmmmmm..... what does that mean?

Eol: What fantasy stories can you point to that show that a "most evil" opponent (I will not say absolute, for that goes beyond what I think ultimately real) is not necessary?

I don't think you meant to say, Eol, that fairy tales cannot be thought provoking.

I must disagree with everyone who says that how fantasy is written is all a matter of taste. Surely there must be some standards that define it as over against other genres of literature, otherwise why bother calling it fantasy? Tolkien, for example, had a clear definition of fantasy, which Nar happens to think is too narrow, but then Nar herself also has a (somewhat) clear definition of fantasy, an arguably good one. I tend to take Tolkien's definition as my own. To paraphrase, he says in "On Faerie Stories", that fantasy is that one type of story that, like no other, has to do with the happy ending, or if not the happy ending, then the eucatastrophe, which is that sudden reversal against all the odds and all the evidence that lifts the heart and gives one hope that Life and Good will ultimately defeat Death and Evil. This works as a broad definition because it delineates fantasy from tragedy, using Tolkien's example.

Goes this, bombur, help discuss the WHY of fantasy? What being true to fantasy is all about?

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Eol]

Fantasy has many definitions. One of them is where you have something in the story that talks, that usually would not ( animals, trees, inanimate objects, the fantstical).

I don't think you meant to say, Eol, that fairy tales cannot be thought provoking.

I did not mean to say they are not thought provoking, though not done well can be quite boring.

Eol: What fantasy stories can you point to that show that a "most evil" opponent (I will not say absolute, for that goes beyond what I think ultimately real) is not necessary?

Honestly, it has been a while since I have read a GOOD fantasy story. The first one that I can come to mind is Mists of Avalon. Though I am not possitive that it had an "prominate evil villian".

The story I am writing has no "prominate evil villian". This way, I can show the agenda of each side and why they think their "adversary" is evil.

the need for an evil that goes deeper than mere villain. Especially if the fantasy story is a serious one.

Here is my challenge,IMP. Give examples of fantasy stories that do not have the "evil" element that is not serious but is still good.


Very interesting discussion that has developed. Lets see if we can find a definition of fantasy, and how to stay true to it, if that something we wish to do.

[Saxony Tarn]

Weeeeeall...

somewhere i've got a few WsIP that don't have a Clear & Present Evil side, and when i ignore 'em for two years then pick 'em up & read 'em, even i think they're pretty good...

i'm just going to sit here behind the bar & pour drinks for you four -- you seem to be on a roll!

s.t.

[Nar]

ST: What's a WsIP? I think in your Mad Hatter Denethor, you've got a sense of human foibles. Promise a new review soon.

Eol: T.H. White's Once and Future King comes to mind: anything about Lancelot and Guenivere. The tone is rueful and ironic, not grand, which is a different variety of fantasy. Is it no longer really fantasy, but an elegant, lovely and worthwhile parody of fantasy? That is the question.

Bombur: This perhaps also explains my desire to keep the story separate from history. As I desire the laws of nature to take a different twist in the world of the story and also simultaneously believe in the laws of the social dynamics and historical dialectics in this one... this leaves me only one option... that the historical timeline of my story has no connection to that of the real world.

This may also have something to do with a yet unexplored question of WHY of the fantasy. Perhaps the answer to your WHY of fantasy has to do with what you'd hope to find out by changing the laws of nature... something about man's nature? Or something about the world's essential nature, below history and facts, facts, facts? I've always liked the idea of speculative fantasy. As LMP would say, fantasy should have a sense of place, Arda certainly does. It's good if this sense of place is stunning and unique.

LMP... Ah, a challenge! I take up your gauntlet, sir! (I almost wrote guerdon, but my trusty grey-cloaked counselor interposed! That would be Webster's Seventh NC dictionary.) I have to read JRRT's essay carefully again. As you know, I think he was describing a particular and deep-rooted catharsis, but not the only one. I do think fantasy is defined by its effect on the reader, and the interplay of catharsis, theme and archetype generate that effect.

I think my definition of fantasy is broader than that of Tolkien in Tree and Leaf. I don't see fantasy as exclusively seeking eucatastrophe and restoration of wonder and hope; I see that as a huge continent in fantasy but not Gonwandaland; not the only continent on earth. (Favorite bumper sticker: 'Re-unite Gonwandaland!')

'Wonder' is questing, curious, open, linked to newness (I wouldn't say childlike, just newness). I would use 'Awe' to try to enlarge the meaning to something more neutral, maybe hopeful, maybe just toughminded and inquiring, maybe terrible, but always revelatory: a catharsis of the understanding rather than the dictionary's catharsis of the emotions. A release of the understanding which releases emotions. Not only and always good, but as true as we can make it.

If I can sidle crabwise into another genre-- there are two types of mysteries: 1)'Logic investigates, enacts justice against the disruptor; we are all restored' (return of the king!) and 2)'Nothing can help us; we all fall down'. The second type leaves a sense of sorrow and pity-- as long as you feel that the author's writing his/her truth and not for the effect of the dark swoon. Some 'all fall down' artists are just going for the effect, for the swoon-- I purely hate that.

Re: Eucatastrophe --I don't, and can't, if I'm true to my whole understanding, assume that revelations are always in the line of release from despair into hope, if they are rigorously worked out. They could be. I love that kind of story. But I would not say that those truths sung from the stinging edge of the void are not story, or fantasy, and I would not say there are no other truths.

Fantasy is that which strikes deep, that's what I would say. Fantasy is the original story. Fantasy is composed below the surface of the story and therefore induces a catharsis of feeling and of understanding. Fantasy fits some part of the dreaming mind like a key to a lock and unlocks... something else, something that's not mind anymore.

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar -- WsIP = Works In Progress.

BTW -- Glad you're enjoying it. i'll try to post more up there after i've heard what you think of what's up there already, and i'm happy to report that more good lines for the upcoming man-to-King chat have come forward. Don't know when i'll get back to writing in earnest again though as the social calendar always starts to cram itself full right about now through Yuletide...

s.t.

(Denethor adds, who, me? Mad Hatter? I resent that -- I am most certainly not MAD... very well -- rather disgruntled, somewhat paranoid, long past incapable of telling either of my sons how proud I ought to be of them or my departed wife that I miss her, and dancing on the marionette strings of the Dark Side, but not MAD! And neither would I wear such a ridiculous hat!)

[bombur]

Yes. I have to admit that the kind of fantasy that includes the issues of liberty etc. CAN be written. Yet I doubt it’ll be good. Of good fantasy approaching modern time I have read Orson Scott Cards maker books, and they had lots of political charge between the lines, but even in them the real deep down basic charge was the controversy of the unmaker, not that of politics. Let us remember that liberty is like the elefant of the story touched by four blind men; "it is like a wall, it is like a rope, It is like a tree, it is like a leaf..." I might even call Cards story the exemption that validifies the rule.

Of urban fantasy I do not think I even know what that means. If it is something akin to shadowrun RPG is meant, then I doubt that I’d want to know more.

The maker Alvin trilogy is a good example of what I meant with the good and Evil theme. It pretty much embodies my idea of the ”Big Bad Evil In The Shadows.” We of cource might call the charachters evil or good but MOST are not. They are under the influence of the unmaker. The existance of one True Evil suffices for black and whiteness in my opinion required by fantasy. Rest of the charachters even ”in the dark side” need not be Evil. But there has to be ”the dark side.” That is what I think.

Eols example, the mists of avalon, is a great book. Unfortunately I just have not been counting it as a fantasy, so I did not think about it when I wrote so absolutely of the need for Evil. I think I have pretty much been counting it to the same category with Sinuhe the egyptian, Clan of the cavebear, Name of the rose etc. etc. I've been considering historical fiction. Even the magic in it interacts so neatly with the forces of nature and that what truly is (/was/was believed to be), that it has not disrupted this line of thought.

”Sequels are always possible, ” said littlemans poet.

Yes I have to admit that. Sigourney Weawer said that of cource she’ll be ready to play in one more alien movie, if they somehow manage to patch Ripley back together after she jumped into molten steel. I think she might have meant it as a joke but she ended up comign back as a clone.

But I think ”the return of the son of the revenge of the Thulsa Doom” – phenomena is rather bad taste. Look at Tolkien. That story is OVER as much as a story can be in the end of the LOTR. This does not mean that you cannot have more stuff of it, but it’ll be appendixes and going back to the history of it.

The why(s) of fantasy:

Why we write fantasy?

Fantasy is escapism of cource. But why do we desire to escape this world?

Or in other words, what is it that we wish to escape in this world? Anwser this gentlemen and anyone can easily tell you what kind of place you desire to escape to?

Some of the anwsers are simple. At least Tolkien wished to give escape tho pure world where meadows are not littered by the smoke and coaldust from trains passing through them.

Perhaps we deeply desire for a land where there is magic, escape from the constricting laws of nature that dictate that mere amount of ones will change nothing and that to set fire one needs matches and to make a fortress out of mountain range one needs a shovel and a bit of time. This is escape from realism to romanticm, land of wannabes and wannados.

I have identified in me yet another desire for escape. As an political activist and idealist I work for better world and sometimes nothing changes and sometimes mistakes are made and sometimes bad things are acchieved and sometimes good. Realization that the worlds rulers are like us, blind mice, is painful.

Oh that there were a world where man could identify the army of the dark lord, and stand in the line against it to write on ones shield, I witheld.


Janne Harju'

[littlemanpoet]

Is it agreeable to all to say that Tolkien's concept and definition of "fairy tale" is one aspect of fantasy? Seems to me that fairy tale is in fact a particular kind of fantasy, which is Tolkien's real subject in "On Fairie Stories".

What fantasy stories can you point to that show that a "most evil" opponent ... is not necessary?

Give examples of fantasy stories that do not have the "evil" element [and] [are] not serious but [are] still good [fantasy].
I wanted to get those two challenges together to discern the difference between them. I was having trouble with that. I hope my editing for the sake of making sense (to me) out of it is okay with you. Whereas fantasy can function without the deep evil in the background, fairie tale cannot. One example of a well-written (so far) dulogy (2) if Meghan Whalen Turner's "Thief" and "Queen of Askalon" (I think that's the title of the second one. There is no "evil", but there are three nations tied by race, land, trade, and deities, for an interesting power struggle. Whereas there is no deep evil, there is a nation that is power hungry and wants to become an empire at the expense of the other two. Serious? I thought so. Delightful? Definitely. Highly recommended. In the tradition of Tolkien? Not really. Good fantasy? You bet. I hope that answers your question (as well as I know how), Eol.

T.H. White's Once and Future King ... Is it no longer really fantasy, but an elegant, lovely and worthwhile parody of fantasy?

I'd say that it is fantasy, but a particular kind, which Tolkien would have called a "romance" in a broader sense than is generally used today. The Romance came into being (and fashion) in the 1300s, with all the stories about King Arthur and his court (actually based on Celtic myth). It's not very popular these days, as such. Knight in shining armor, helpless maiden-princess-queen, cuckold king, affair between knight and lady, heroic bastard sons, etc. You can still find derivatives of it all over the place, but only ever as part of something else like a mystery, action thriller, you name it.

Gotta run.

[Nar]

LMP: Yes, I've always been bothered by the Arthurian legends myself-- they never appealed to me much. Whatever it is I find in some stories and legends I don't find there. I found Once and Future King charming as a novel, greatly enjoyed it, but it doesn't fit me as LotR does-- hard to say why.

Bombur: Realization that the worlds rulers are like us, blind mice, is painful. What a lovely phrase, Bombur: sad, wise, heartfelt and well-put. It feels very alive to me. Something will come of it for you; or has already.

I would argue that reading or otherwise experiencing fantasy that has real value is something beyond escape: it's a contemplative act.

Contemplative acts: meditation, service, pilgrimage, prayer, sacrifice, counseling, voluntary ordeals (fasting, climbing mountain, walking on hot coals, surfing), ritual or spontaneous spiritual observance, bar brawls (well, maybe not bar brawls), dancing, family gatherings, friend gatherings, responsive debate (truth-seeking debate, not victory-seeking debate-- like this thread!), holidays, long thoughtful walks ... the telling of stories and listening to same ...

Any contemplative act can result in far-reaching changes to a person's understanding and mode of living-- if the challenge of contemplation is met with strength of purpose and intellectual integrity. The right story under the right circumstances can trigger successful contemplation.

The mind is confronted by something that cannot be born. The mind longs for escape. The mind moves into a story for the purpose of escape, but the deeper patterns of the story fit into the mind like a lock to a key and the mind reaches an understanding during this interlude of escape that it could reach no other way.

Use another analogy. Is storytelling the anesthesia, relieving pain only? Or is it the surgery, saving the life and painfully reordering the body so that natural processes can heal it? Merely escape is merely anesthesia; I would argue that storytelling at the level of LotR or similarly deep-impact books is not merely anesthesia but also surgery. I find this personally true in my own life; I am not reasoning from rhetoric but from my own experience. I have also read other discussions of the effect of this book from people who had similar reactions.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Eol]

IMP: Yes you awnsered my question.I must apologise, being a fantasy writer, I do not read much in the way of popular fantasy.I have been let down by it, so I have being my trek through classical literature and classical mythos and legends. Hopefully I will have the time to begin the Aeanid htat is sitting on my shelf upstairs.

[Neferchoirwen]

Surgery is the perfect word, Nar, you have my word on that. The reality contained in fantasy can heal, more than just change, though change can be part of the healing. The reality in those pages seem to be more powerful, reaching deep inside of us; not just reaching in and talking to us, but actually doing something inside of us.

Contemplation is what makes a novel great. Not only does it allow me as a reader to explore a characters mind, but I find myself contemplating. I admire these characters that I almost feel the urge to pray for them (call that an obssession or an insanity).

I am brewing an idea in my head to turn a Biblical story into a fantasy novel. The resemblence is clear, when both fantasy and the Bible are read, and I am sure it'll be a huge project. I hope my mind gives birth to the characters soon.

Writing for me is highly therapeutic, and yes, surgical.

On Arthuurian fantasy, I am trying to look for works of that genre. I also think that it is fantasy in a sense that Camelot is a vision that certain people believe in and hope for, which in itself is an escape. I haven't read any yet, but I will be reading The Once and Future King one of these days. (Speaking of The Once and Future King, I found another Arthurian fantasy entitled "Merlin's Ring". I found it on sale for less than a dollar's worth)

Well, how serious am I? The idea is just lingering in my mind, so I haven't started on anything, but I am definite that it will a novel I will be proud of.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

[Eol]

I was talking with a couple of my friends after going to dinner and discussing fantasy literature. We broke fantasy into three catagories: so fantastical, it can never happen, fantastical it would be cool if it happened, but probably would not, and so fantastical that is it possible it could have or will happen.

By no means do I say this is how it is, but it was an interesting way to think about fantasy.


the mists of avalon, is a great book. Unfortunately I just have not been counting it as a fantasy -Bombur

So you are saying that any myth or legend created is not fantasy? Legands is partial truth with some embleshiment. Is not fantasy just that? I consider myths and legends possible fantasy as it makes something/someone seem more then they seem.

Example: Robin Hood did exist, but whether he stole from the rich and gave to the poor, ect. well it is up to grabs. Same as King Arthur, as he was once a ruler in britain, most likely a chieftian and great warrior. Time changes the story as it told orally and only after hundreds of years later does any of it reach printed word.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

The term fantasy didn't exist with any of its current connotations until it was distinguished from fancy by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. He said that a fancy is like a notion, whereas a fantasy is more complex, something wherein sub-creation is actually taking place. I forget who it was that developed the word fantasy further yet, but it was either Tolkien or somebody in the 1800s.

[Belin]

Coleridge!

I haven't been following this topic that closely, but I was scanning Daily Topics and came across the name of STC and was instantly drawn in.

Let me admit that I haven't read all of the Biographia Literaria (yet), but I did read an exerpt that sounds very much like it might be the one you're referring to, lmp. If this is the case, you're slightly mistaken, as the word he used is "imagination." He made a distinction between primary imagination, which is basically perception (and seeing perception as a kind of imagination is a wonderful insight and one I very much enjoy)--Tolkien refers to this usage in "On Fairy-tales," though he doesn't mention Coleridge's name --, secondary imagination, which implies the creation of something entirely new, and fancy, which was no more than a mixture of things that didn't ordinarily belong together (think griffins). Subcreation as secondary imagination is a very interesting connection, I think. Secondary imagination, to my mind, is described in a very similar way to secondary belief. Subcreation..hm. In any case, I would certainly be very interested in knowing how Tolkien reacted to Coleridge, if he borrowed some of his ideas, etc. They were both introducing fantasy into an enviornment where it hadn't existed much... You'll hear more from me on this when I get around to reading STC's whole book.

I don't know if this is helpful at all, but I'll certainly be watching to see whether anything comes of it.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Nar]

'Perception as imagination'? Tell me more, Belin! You mean the world as a dream of the mind? Hmm, what do we think about a definition of 'fancy' rearranging and reattaching things that did not go together? I can see where the idea would come from-- that's how all those lovely medieval beasties were constructed: Winged lions with scorpion tails (now THAT's serious!) --Griffins are my favorite. Anyone else have a favorite medieval beast? Know any obscure ones? What about the Basilisk? Body of a lizard, wings of a bird of prey, head of a ... chicken? That's what it looks like in my beastiary, anyway. And of course that glaring eye that paralyzes ... why did I never notice it is the glare of a very angry chicken!

Anyway, if rearranging parts is 'fancy' then fantasy I think is something more, there has to be an overarching consistency and flow for a story to work for me as fantasy. There are certainly elements in LotR and the Silmarillion from many sources, but they feel composed and melded together, don't they? I certainly couldn't deconstruct them. That's what's meant by 'sub-creation' I think-- it's a living thing, and if you tried to dissassemble it into allegory or elements of myth and legend it would give a terrible cry like a ... mandrake pulled from the living earth! There's a beast for you, the world's only vegetable beastie.

[Lila Bramble]

smilies/confused.gif Well, it seems my little break from the internet wasn't so rewarding! I returned to see my Yahoo box loaded with FaerieWordWeavers new posts (and I haven't even read one!) and a huge topic here in our discussion board! Well, I'll sit down and relax and see how this carries out...

[Eol]

Lila, take your time to read over ther past material, as it is no going anywhere too fast, niether is this thread at the moment.

good to see you again.

Eol

[Nar]

LotR is in a sort of hybrid Dark Ages/Edwardian world. Does fantasy have to be set in a middle ages or earlier society, or have older elements from middle ages or earlier drawn into a more modern world? There seems to be a need for life and death issues-- as in LotR or The Hobbit, the story never starts swinging until the protagonists wander somewhere where there are things that might kill them. So is a world where people might be killed necessary for fantasy so that the stakes are high enough?

[Eol]

Well, death is always a good way to start things. THough what if you have a culture that does not see death as bad, rather a progression to a higher life....? What if death does not mean much to that character thay is from that culture?

It is really up to the writer ti give the suspense. What is the stakes are high because someone has to make to a certain place before a certain period of time elasped? No death would occure....

[littlemanpoet]

Even Star Wars was "a long long time ago". But Science Fantasy (I'm not talking about techy sci fi) is just as often in the future, whether one generation away or millenia. So I would say it need not be in the past, but it does have to have an otherness. Otherwise, why escape to it?

Fantasy IS about life and death. No matter if you're a strict Tolkien follower or your definition is larger. This is, I think, because fantasy is about life in its most simple and profound (notice I'm not saying simplistic) forms, where all the mundaneity is stripped away and we see things for what they REALLY are (even though so called "realists" consider fantasy lovers at best dreamers).

[Thinhyandoiel]

Well look who's here! Me! Wierd, ne? Anyways!

So is a world where people might be killed necessary for fantasy so that the stakes are high enough?

Like Paul said in regards to this question, I do believe that the concept of death or at least a threat to life or a way of life is necessary for fantasy. Because it is this threat, this danger, that sets everything in motion. Even for a simple "rescue princess from evil dragon"-tale there is a threat of death.

Because it is natural instinct to survive, ingrained within all creatures, life is reverenced in human beings. Of course, there are the exceptions where death is equally or even more so revered or honoured like Eol pointed out. I think a good fantasy idea for a culture like that would be for some typical evil lord to come up and turn everyone immortal, and their resulting struggle to live without what they honoured most. *muses* Huh...muse is at work now. Great. I'm off! ^_~

[Eol]

I would have to agree that fantasy is about life and death. Though we can go a little further and say that fantasy is about people. Fantasy is about people and their lives.

[Lila Bramble]

Ah, what a great question..."What is fantasy about?"

The main thing in my story isn't really "How can I survive?" but more of "How can I get what I want?"

My current work is sort of like a rescue effort that turns out to be much more with many 'surprises' and unexpected things along the way. Anyway, I'm happy with how it's coming out.

True, fantasy has to have one common factor, but not all of it has to be the 'Life or Death' threat. After all, torturey, rape, enslavement could be worse than death, espically if they let you suffer and go free.

And taking away something dear to you could be the 'what if I fail?' answer, as well.

[Saxony Tarn]

oh my, it seems to have gotten existentially blue in here indeed! (looks like i'd better head back to the cellar and brew up some stronger drink for these late-night philosophical debates on the nature of life, death, and high plot tension that i sense on the horizon...)

s.t.

(this next part is a test of the updated profile system. this is only a test...)

(if successful, you should see a scene from FOTR that was never filmed, but should have been...)

(that was a test of the emergency profile system. we now return you to your regular scholarly discourse. thank you for your support!)

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Nar]

Eol: Hmm, you're making me think. What if the stakes are high because someone has to make to a certain place before a certain period of time elasped? No death would occur.... Yes, high stakes, that's the key... there is hope, and there is loss, and not always of life, think of the Scouring of the Shire.
LMP: Good point-- I would say setting in the past with stakes of life and death brings us close to our elemental nature and nature itself, but then what do we say about Star Wars?

Keep writing, Lila! Make the stakes even higher! I like fantasy where the fate of the LAND is at stake!

Re: This is only a test... My Lord, Saxony Tarn, that was beautiful! *Sigh* Did you intend me to see Bor' plucked from the falls, on a split screen with Tom Bombadil smooching Goldberry in the Zorro manner, or was that all me?

Thinhyandoiel, smilies/biggrin.gif you wicked mind you: Eol posits a lovely, spiritually evolved society that reveres death as a progression onward, and you want to send in a Dark Lord to take death away from them? 'Fear me, worship me, or I shall not harm one hair on your heads! Hahahaha! You shall live, yes! You shall all LIVE!' smilies/eek.gif Truly you are a diabolical mind!

[Eol]

Nar:

You are simply hillarious!

Since we are still on the subject, my friend found this link about the Watt-evan's Laws of Fantasy, take a peek and we can discuss it!
http://www.sff.net/people/lwe/miscellaneous/laws.htm

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar:

heh heh... well, i just wanted to let you know that i missed your feedback on my fanfic (and that goes for LMP & double for all the others who expressed interest, got the link, and have never left a footprint in the guestbook, but i know you're quite busy at the moment) and keep your interest stoked up.

Which is always a critical component of any good story -- fantasy or not -- if it doesn't keep the reader's interest, well, they have a thousand more things vying for that time...

s.t.

(and if you liked "Boromir's Revenge" you should see the different angle out-take view on my desktop... "This thing has a right end and a wrong end, and YOU, Lurtz, are on the wrong end...")

[Nar]

Eol: thank you! I'll check that thread and sign back on. Laws of Fantasy, hmm?

Yes, Saxony Tarn, Bor' has been running on my mind, but I was stuck on another review and had to resolve it first.

I believe I haven't mentioned (I was saving it for the big opening of my review of Bor' chapter 7+, but what the hey!) that your Bor' came and possessed my paintbrush-- yes, not two weeks ago this was, I had my tunes on, ELO and Opera Arias (sad angry ones by toothsome males), I was dancing back and forth on my painting scaffold painting my house yellow, nice thick classic paintbrush, nice thick yellow paint, and I thought, that brush is thick like Bor's hair, and immediately the brush started feeling like Bor', rushed hither and yon by an ardently admiring female: whether the author-- you-- or Iarangol, I couldn't decide, but all the music became Bor' themes-- 'I'm taking a dive!' 'turned to stone--you were gone--turned to stone--' 'It's a living thing! It's a terrible thing to lose!' ... and then I'm not sure, it was my Bor'Brush singing either 'My love you are like the stars' or 'My love they are about to kill me' --can't understand Italian, but it was from Tosca so it was one of the two.

All right, yes. You've got a passel o'reviewing coming your way, Saxony Tarn. And I have every motive to do it, because, damn it, I want more of that story! I know something's been wrong, because you haven't been signing on with breathless reports from your story, but hopefully some reviewing will help. If it doesn't, I'm gonna send you a slightly used house painting brush. Think yellow, bright lemonpie yellow.

[littlemanpoet]

Whoa! Good stuff here, folks.

Thinyandoiel:

I think a good fantasy idea for a culture like that would be for some typical evil lord to come up and turn everyone immortal, and their resulting struggle to live without what they honoured most. *muses* Huh...muse is at work now. Great. I'm off!

So, can we expect a new plot twist in your fantasy? smilies/wink.gif

Lila: The main thing in my story isn't really "How can I survive?" but more of "How can I get what I want?"
Good point. You remind me that Tolkien said fantasy is about desire. Both questions you mention reflect that.

Saxony Tarn: smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
Oh, and I will be getting back to your story after the other priorities that keep leaping into my schedule. Consider it a promise. Heck, why wouldn't I? It's too fun (anachronistic) and interesting to leave alone.

Nar: but then what do we say about Star Wars?
Um, freedom from tyranny? Heh. That brings us full circle to the question of liberte, fraterneti, egalite. I think my answer was "yes". This confirms it for me.

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar & LMP -- i'm glad to hear it & we'll all be expecting you. (Just for you, Nar, i WILL compile the 'soundtrack' & post that as well -- but you had some good ideas there!)

things have gotten rather busy lately, not the least of which was the Rennaisance Faire in its new closer-to-home and shadier location. Sighted: a certain wandering Elf prince. Ah, so THIS is that 'far Western Shore' to which he sailed at the end... (pretty good reproduction costume too. i didn't get the chance to ask if he'd made it or rented it... B( )

(to be done next time i get to Faire this year -- take the Little Warrior shopping for sword-hilted letter openers, and see if i can't bribe the Horn makers to sell me those little tips they slice off the horns to put the reeds on. Must have Horn of Gondor, by hook or by crook! i'll just have to keep him away from the jewelry merchants...)

Later this week though i hope to get back to posting more chapters up for reading, if not to writing...

...as i'm sure does LMP, who will probably have to update his exhaustive index for all the new topics that have sprung up (Fantasy Politics? Who'da thunk it?)

s.t.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Nar: Thinhyandoiel, you wicked mind you: Eol posits a lovely, spiritually evolved society that reveres death as a progression onward, and you want to send in a Dark Lord to take death away from them? 'Fear me, worship me, or I shall not harm one hair on your heads! Hahahaha! You shall live, yes! You shall all LIVE!' Truly you are a diabolical mind!

*laughs* Thank you! *bows* I like to work on my diabolical schemes on my days off, you know. I was thinking 'take away what they desire most' and you have a typical Dark Lord. But, then again, if that were true, the bully who takes candy from a baby would also be a Dark Lord. I know quite a few Dark Lords in that case. Heck, I've been a Dark Lord on one occassion or another. smilies/biggrin.gif (If my definition of Dark Lord were true...it's not though. smilies/wink.gif)

LMP:
So, can we expect a new plot twist in your fantasy?

*laughs* No. My muse had me thinking that maybe, 'yes', there for a while. But then it didn't fit with a few themes I had going. Or...maybe it does. Reincarnation runs abundant in my story, and that is a type of immortality, is it not? Come to think of it...immortality as 'punishment' sort of already occurs in my story if you look at it that way.

Saxony:
Sighted: a certain wandering Elf prince.

smilies/eek.gif We never have Renaissance Faires here. But I would give anything to see someone dress as an elf in person. Brings the fantasy closer to home, ya know? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lila Bramble]

Haha, here is a place I can go with a mug of ale to get a good hearty laugh.

Anyway, I've decided to slow down my dangerously progressive fanfiction and work moreso on my 'novel,' it itself is interesting ME in the world of Relgala. I included a lot about the religion, unlike Tolkien.

But I have a question for Saxony. Though you haven't read 'the Light of War' one thing in it is that humans evolve into 'elfs' (well, its really hard to explain in this 'short' post.)

There are elfs, humans, and than there is that akward stage where a human is half way between the evloving process. One of my main, well moreso important, characters is at the stage. I want it to be rather like Ardanansa, since that is a fanfiction not to be published. But I fear to use the name and rock solid personna. What should I do?

But besides my question, I also came here to join in on the ale fest! *Grabs a fresh one Saxony laid down at the bar counter*

[Lady_Espel]

Lol, anyone who has chatted at the same time as me, knows I don't take myself seriously alot of the time, so I don't think my stories are very good. I started reading the first book while I was writing my story and, out of respect for Tolkien, went back and changed so much. The worst thing was, was that my baddy was the king's advisor (eg: Wormtounge) and i wrote it before I'd read the second book. smilies/mad.gif I was so frustrated, but had to change it, even though it was a big part of my story. But, I'd rather have one that takes longer to write and is origanal than a fake. I think we should start a thread with people's stories put up, because everyone's sound great!

[Saxony Tarn]

well, milady, you've come to the right tavern :: hands you a drink to be filled w/ the virtual beverage of your choice ::

and as far as stories posted, i recommend that you talk to the Brooding Bard in the corner there when he takes his next set break... :: shooting wink to LMP ::

Lila -- no, i've never read the story you mention, but it sounds interesting. (stick around after closing time & tell me more...)

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

LMP raises his half-empty mug and winks back at ST. "Yes, we'll have a talk with the Lady. Ne doubt yee've come to the reet place."

One thing I'll pass on to ye is that jus' b'cause JRRT had a counsellor as the evil bad guy doesn't mean you can't. It depends how you handle him/her. If your story's different enough, I dare say it'll stand on its own. But I feel for your frustration. I ken a wee bit o' wat yer taakin' aboot.

[Nar]

So, any serious fantasy writers out there come up with some good weapons? I notice people like to invent new methods for mayhem and so forth. Narsil is still my favorite, but I always thought it a great shame we never get much on Gil-Galad's spear, or on that final confrontation with Sauron in general, it must have been intense. I'm not great with inventing weapons, but there is this pickle jar... Never mind. You had to be there. My fantasy writing just does not run in ordinary channels.

Now, if you're the contrarian anti-heroic type of fantasy writer, if, for example, you applaud the non-use of the One Ring because you worry about the dangers of power and you identify with the hobbits as representatives of the common man, how about prosaic, unromantic gear? Sam's pots, for example. You never think about Sam's pots, with which he keeps Frodo alive, on which that great, warm funny scene with the stewed coney depends-- the only meeting of the minds Sam and Smeagol have (well... almost). I note the movie turned Sam's frypan into a blunt intrument for battle with orcs, but the book is much purer: those pans mean Sam's pride, Sam's craft in cooking and caretaking and Sam's love for his master. One of the saddest moments in the book for me is when Sam throws his pots down a fissure to lighten their load-- they're the only thing left that's pure Sam and not Sam-for-master or Sam-for-mission. Anything in your stories that's small, humble, prosaic, but somehow sums up one of your characters better than anything else?