TIG CXVII: GAME Thread: [Archive] - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 03:13 AM

To be honest after yesterDay, the Ghost appearing is a welcome relief. And yeah I have to second what others said, Form, you are nailing it. I figure that right now the Ghost may be probably asleep, which is a pity, because I'd have liked to ask a few things for clarification. I hope that before the Day is done the rest of us will also have the chance to interact more directly with the Ghost.

Since I started about this, one thing is that both Morsul and Boro have interpreted the last thing Form said as response to themselves, but which is it? And if the interpretation is what Boro said, is it that there is only 1 Wolf, or it is that there is at least one but there may be more? (I presume that - and this goes generally also for the future, if there is something important we misinterpret - the Ghost can say something that will address these when he appears.)

And one more remark while I am at the subject. I think the Ghost's first words were not just a greeting, but mainly a "take it slow" remark, especially in the response to Morsul's first-posts' action plans which, by the way, I don't endorse at all. And now he even sabotaged them himself by voting within like three seconds. That is nothing to say about voting sally, which may be a good idea, but now Morsul effectively forces everybody's hand, and that's just absolutely irresponsible (in the better case) before majority of the village had the chance to even discuss this. Does not help that first gets lynched and per Boro's and Morsul's interpretation of the Ghost's words, Morsul could be on the shortlist of Wolves.

Anyway, I also second Boro's request that if you, Gorlim (Forlim?) have any other information from "the council of Ilúvatar", you should tell us first before it gets buried under our own speculations. If the Dead have some speculation, then of course it is just a speculation, but if there is for example something relevant you have concluded, anything that might shed light on anything is helpful.

Otherwise however, I think we should not just tunnel-vision on the Ghost toDay, however nice it is. We better catch a Wolf toDay and also in the future Days, and the Ranger dying is actually a big setback in these numbers.

Which brings me to one question we should look at - so why did Lottie get targeted? I still assume the Wolves primarily go for the Seer (and I don't assume they thought her the Ranger and killed her for that, unless she somewhere advertised it blatantly and they saw it - but I don't see why a Ranger should advertise...). The puzzling part about it is that she voted for two innocents on the previous Days, so the Wolves would have no reason to kill her based on those. I will look into it.

EDIT: x-ed with Morsul. Whoa, somebody is around!

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 03:37 AM

effectively forces everybody's hand,

Yeah, basically. It forces the wolves to hide and bus one of their own or vote in tandem trying to save them revealing themselves. Or to try to hide more effectively they have to avoid bandwagonning. Either way their power is broken. I had originally put my vote in my first post, at that point it was a much more desperate shot in the dark. FormerForm’s information bears out my suspicion and I can more confidently make the vote.

Edit: I’m around now but I work today noon to 8(DL is 7pm for me) so I’ll have much less interaction throughout the day.

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 03:48 AM

Now that's not at all a reaction I would expect from an innocent sally. You seem almost resigned to the fact you're going to be lynched today. And if you are innocent than I don't think you would be trying to guilt trip and make us feel uneasy that you now act resigned to your fate.

As for these accusations against me, I hope you don't think me foolish enough to kill someone suspecting me on the first night of a game. That's rather offensive, to be honest. I welcome accusations, though of course when I'm innocent, as I am now, votes not so much.

I never like this defense "Do you think I'd be that foolish/dumb to Night kill someone suspecting/voting for me. That's offensive." It is very much a guilt trip, to try to make us feel bad that a wolf "couldn't be that foolish/obvious." Why is it foolish for wolves to target someone if they suspect they are the seer?

Hindsight reveals he wasn't, but that doesn't change the fact he was the wolves first kill and they don't know who the Seer is. If he turned out to be the seer, I guarantee you (if you are a wolf) wouldn't be trying to make us feel like we're being offensive. We've all done it (well, excluding Soriman, hopefully we haven't scared you away! We are very odd people and ghosts). We've all thought we picked up a sign from someone at some point about their role, like "Boro has to be the seer" and if the wolves thought that Night 1, I'm dead instead of Form.

What particularly doesn't make sense is...

I think Morsul is more misguided than evil, though innocents can do just as much damage if acting on the wrong information, as he is now.

So, knowing that out of 3 (Morsul, sally, Pitch) at least one is a wolf. When Morsul learns this, his reaction was a quick trigger response "I'm innocent, it's not me, so going with the 50/50 plunge for the person most suspicious out of the two. Which, doesn't say anything about his role, but it is an understandable reaction to have.

Your reaction is quite different.

Hopefully we can put this behind us and not lynch an innocent (read, me).

Ok, understandable, like Morsul this wouldn't say anything about your role. But what I don't understand is you are inclined to think Morsul is a misguided innocent, but say nothing about Pitch? So, if at least 1 of 3 has to be a wolf, from your perspective it's not you, you don't think it's Morsul, which means an innocent sally would start suspecting Pitch? Yet you do not do this, your reaction is very much resigned to the fact you will be lynched. An innocent sally in our situation knowing we really need a wolf today, wouldn't just sacrifice herself like this.

So...are you a sacrificial wolf, because Pitch is also a wolf and you are hoping we move away from Pitch after your lynch? :eek:

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:50 AM

First off: feeling really bad about the Huin lynch, on multiple levels. I can't believe I noticed Form's death made him more likely innocent and ignored that :rolleyes: I find that every time I ignore reason in favour of gut-feeling OR ignore gut-feeling in favour of reason I pick the wrong thing to follow. I would say, I'm sorry Huin, but since this worked in your favour last time (me ignoring your wolvish vibes because I had no actual proof you were a wolf, and you were), let's call it... even? :p

But banter aside, entering Day3 without having a wolf lynched is always a little demoralising, especially with having just lost our ranger. We're gonna need all the help we can get toDay.

And speaking of losing our ranger, that sucks, also because Lottie was one of the few people I was confident was innocent.

And still about the Huin lynch: like I said, I will be looking at Boro and Legate toDay. Especially the former is ringing all my alarms now that I know Huin was innocent. The way he orchestrated the Huin lynch (despite suspecting Legate more originally? Do we have a Boro-Legate duo?) then started calling everyone else wolves for voting with him rubs me as wrong as something can rub me. Also I have to confess I suck at reading Legate in ww, so I usually keep a bit of a distance to him and give him the benefit of doubt for the first few Days unless he does something super shady, because often one of us getting killed/lynched solves the dilemma for me. But since it's Day3 and we're in dire straits, I'm aware I have to start paying more attention to him.

Now onwards to toDay...

Not a fan of Morsul's plans, for reasons that I don't feel confident expressing in public.

Ghost Form! Yay! Already from the first post I can see this will be fun. Not sure I follow the dead's logic though. Call the beasts? Ie the wolves? Wolves, would you like to show yourselves? :Merisu:

I don't follow Morsul and Boro's logic in parsing the ghost quotes? Why do you think he's specifically talking about Huinwagon? Or about Morsul / Sally / Pitch ?

Also, G55, I'm confused, can we ask direct question of the ghost like Morsul did? I thought not?

Also Morsul!!!! Why are you voting so early!! When you just said yourself we have to think carefully toDay??? As far as I see, you haven't really spent much time toDay analysing anybody or wondering why Lottie was killed. You just want us all to follow your gut? Geez, I don't like this. Okay, possibly a wolf would not be so brazen but you're narrowing our options on a whim and I don't like that. Or maybe Sally looks like a convenient target others might get behind because she's hardly been here but she's been suspected? Red flags. (I still don't have much of an opinion on Sally, since she hasn't been around. But I see she has a posted toDay already. Good.)

I don't know. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who's willing to dig a trench and go hard from the beginning of the Day - that's what someone who knows who are on their side and who aren't would do. As has been pointed out, toDay is likely crucial. Therefore the wolves need to direct the village to lynch one of their own. They can go hard. They probably decided last Night who they're gunning for toDay. The rest of us can't afford tunnel vision like that, we have to actually think.

edit: xed with Boro

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:54 AM

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 03:55 AM

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 04:00 AM

Can someone explain to me that since when is one of Morsul, Sally and Pitch a werewolf?

And since this seems to come from Form's posts, how would the dead know? Since we don't have a dead seer? I doubt G55 would straight up tell them who the wolves are.

Either I'm slow or there's something straight up shady going on with Boro and Morsul.

The information they get is basically (I just realized I use this word too much.) activities of the wolves and gifted. So the interpretation is that the dead were told one or more wolves received votes on day 1. Boro narrowed that down to myself Pitch and Sally of those two I suspect Sally

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 04:09 AM

My main defense against wolfdom is my early vote. A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power. But a vote for their own first, that scatters any plans they could have as per my last post.To a degree, I agree. But you could be a wolf who has take the gamble that the suspicion of Sally that was in the air yesterDay will continue toDay and by voting for her early you can keep her in the spotlight instead of your fellows. Or you could be wolves with Sally and decided to bus her in an epic way because she's under too much scrutiny. I don't know. I don't like your vote, even if you're innocent, because it's too hasty. If Sally is innocent you have just done the wolves a big favour.

Also I see you're trying to explain the thing to me, but I'm still not following. Yes Form said First Day, five people, and wargs and werewolves, but why do you think they're the people who received votes? :confused:

Anyway, I'm off to read Lottie's posts to try to determine why the wolves went for her. She voted for Huin yesterDay, so that can hardly have been the reason.

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 04:20 AM

Since I started about this, one thing is that both Morsul and Boro have interpreted the last thing Form said as response to themselves, but which is it? And if the interpretation is what Boro said, is it that there is only 1 Wolf, or it is that there is at least one but there may be more? (I presume that - and this goes generally also for the future, if there is something important we misinterpret - the Ghost can say something that will address these when he appears.)

To be clear, I still don't trust you, but I'm putting those problems aside for toDay, because, in my opinion, we have to make the best choice from Morsul, Pitch, or sally if we want to fight on another day.

And in my situation with the limited time today, this will likely be my last lengthy post. I was hoping to have another message, if there is one, but that was too hopeful.

Yes, I took Form's response, that at least 1 wolf is among those who received votes on Day 1. But I'm going to operate under the assumption that it is 1. If sally is a wolf, I don't think this should exclude the possibility Morsul or Pitch being one (Or if Morsul's a wolf, that wouldn't exclude sally or Pitch...etc). But if we make it to that event of getting 1 wolf today, Ghost!Form's message about Day 1 wouldn't implicate the other 2 either.

(RL note: I will be pretty much away for the rest of the Day. I was planning on having to vote super early, but I will have my mobile device. So at least I'll still be able to check in and vote from that. This also means - maybe to the delight of many, this will be my last "lengthy" post of the day. :p)

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 04:51 AM

I lied, because I see a confused Lommy... :p

Therefore at the sixth hour of the First Day,

Of the Beginning of Day, the First Day, meaning this is a message pertaining to Day 1.

In the Lake-town we have always elected

Mentioning an "election", or in our case a vote. The message pertains to something about Day 1s vote.

and five you have measured ere the

"Five you have measured". To be measured, to consider, to deliberate. The 5 we deliberated lynching Day 1.

Morsul
sally
Pitch
Huey
Lottie

Greenie is not included, because she was the Day 1 lynch and revealed innocent. So of the 5 others who we measured (considered) to lynch...

one of the Big People

there are wargs and were-wolves

One of them "there are wargs and were-wolves." As Lottie and Huey have since died and revealed not to be a werewolf, that leaves sally, Pitch, Morsul.

And Form responded after with what looks like a confirmation:

'I think,' answered Frodo slowly, 'that it was a good guess, as far as it goes.

Please don't make me explain again. That was a pain on my phone. :)

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 05:00 AM

Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty.

'Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf,' he said. 'And then you stopped, because you said that such matters were best left until daylight. Don't you think you had better finish now?

Ghost

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 05:05 AM

Okay, I was about to post and I just feel like remarking, wow. Form, I dig this. This is amazing. The only sad thing is that right now I have no idea what you are talking about and I have to be off in a couple of minutes and then won't be around for large part of the Day... but cool.

Short summary post incoming.

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 05:18 AM

Day 1

#6 banter post, uses leaf icon and talks about gardening:
I'm here, I'm here! I spent a lovely morning in the garden. It's time to harden off the seeds - I have some truly delightful tomatoes, artichokes, and cabbage, not to mention the wildest looking morning glory seedling! I see I missed - oh my - three people are dead?!?Could this have been interpreted as a seer hint? With the words "I see"? But I don't know what gardening has to do with seers?

#36, #42 suspects Greenie and agrees with Kath that Morsul's tunnel vision on Huin is bizarre. Continues about the subject in the next post.

#63 does a legate-180 on Greenie. Flipflops on Morsul, mildly suspects yours truly, says doesn't want to vote for Greenie, Pitch, or Huin.

#69 wants to lynch a quiet person in theory, but not in practice since the quiet ones are Soriman, Sally, Kath and herself.

#73 defends Huin and her defense of Huin.

#77 tries to discredit Pitch's Lottie-Kath wolf duo theory.

#80 speculation about wolf-Form.

#82 continues Morsul-Huin un-wolfpack speculation.

#85 says Sally and Form are unlikely packmates, even though she doesn't seem to suspect either per se.

#95 would prefer to vote Morsul or Pitch, but goes for Greenie.

#100 puzzling out who's left to vote.

Comments: ?? if this had been a Night2 kill, I would have said the wolves thought she dreamed of innocent Huin, but it doesn't make sense because she voted Huin on Day2 which the wolves could hardly have overlooked. Otherwise she was vaguely defending Kath, but it's hard to see that as seerish. She voted for Greenie, who we know was innocent. It's notable she talks a lot about Morsul and suspects him, even though she flipflops about him a little. Could wolf-Morsul have thought she was the seer who had dreamed of him but was trying to downplay her seerishness by adding flip-floppy counter arguments?

Day 2

#112 thinks Form's death points at Sally.

#113 explains her vote, saying she suspected Greenie more than Huin.

#116 questions Morsul about his list post and questions basically everything about it (him not having a read on Legate and myself, suspecting Sally and Kath, trusting Boro and Pitch).

#118 continues pressing Morsul but concedes he sounds more like an ordo.

#123 in reply to Boro and Sally, makes jokes about never playing "normal". Could this have been read as gifted hint?

#148 tries to discredit yours truly's Sally-Lottie wolf pack theory by defending her defense of Sally on Day1. Argues with Pitch about not being packmates with Sally and Huin.

#151, #153 yells at Morsul and Sally for having tunnel vision on her.

#158 questions Pitch about his Day1 voting.

#171 top suspects Sally and Pitch, "weird vibes" from Boro, Legate and yours truly.

#197 reminder of the dead thread vote.

#205 debates between voting Sally and Huin, votes for Huin.

#213 talks about the tie system.

#226 says she would have preferred Sally or Pitch to Huin but other people left to vote didn't seem to agree, also says she didn't want to vote for Boro.

Comments: I am again confused, to be honest. The only one she says she doesn't want to vote - Boro - is also someone she gets "weird vibes" from. As for her suspicions, Morsul is notably there again, but she seems to end up leaning innocent on him, which would be weird from a seer regarding a known wolf, unless she concluded that she can't get him lynched and she was desperate to hide from Nightly attention? Also suspects Sally and Pitch, but didn't vote either, but instead Huin. You'd think that if she'd have been the seer who had dreamed of wolf-Sally, she'd have given her the third vote and hoped some living or dead would follow her lead. You'd think wolf-Sally would think that too, even though paranoid wolf Sally or Sally getting framed seems to be a running joke in this game. Not sure what to think of that. Pitch then? Lottie suspected him throughout the Day, but nobody voted for him - and I think I may have been the only other one besides Lottie who seriously entertained the idea. So a seer-Lottie could have dreamed of a wolf-Pitch and not voted for him, because as she said, there was not enough support for the idea. This makes me want to look at Pitch closer.

Comments of comments: Lottie's death points to Pitch the most, and to a lesser degree, Sally and Morsul.

Comments of comments of comments: Also very interesting that Lottie's death seems to point at the exact same trio that Boro and Morsul think the ghost posting points at.

edit: xed with everyone! I see there's a lot but Legate and I have to be at Nogrod's in 40 minutes to have some family quality time marathorning Star Wars movies :D so I don't have the time to reply right now. Thanks Boro for very gallantly offering to explain the ghost stuff to me, I'll see later in the evening (European time) whether it makes sense to me or whether I think you're pulling my leg. ;)

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 05:20 AM

'The morning of two days ago, nigh on three days of journey! How far is the place where you parted?'

"In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men.

All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

'For you little gardener and lover of trees,' she said to Sam, 'I have only a small gift.'

"Lots and none at all, it is," said he.

Your ring is shown to be that One Ring by the fire-writing alone, apart from any other evidence.'
'And when did you discover that?' asked Frodo, interrupting.
'Just now in this room, of course,' answered the wizard sharply.

Ghost

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 05:26 AM

My main defense against wolfdom is my early vote. A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power. But a vote for their own first, that scatters any plans they could have as per my last post.
You realise that a Wolf doing so would empower *their* bandwagon that way. And like I said, even if you were innocent, it is just plain irresponsible to vote before half of the village even showed up.

That being said, sally has been slipping under the radar a lot, which is a perfect behaviour for a Wolf. She did so while at the same getting votes during both Days, and nearly getting lynched yesterDay. If she is a Wolf, then one could expect her packmates to have had hand in it. If she is innocent, with her getting votes both Days, the Wolves would probably think she would be the perfect scapegoat for toDay with the likelihood that people would vote her. That is the one reason I am uneasy with this start and I would hold our horses at least until we've had the time to seriously consider everything.

I like Lommy's more sensible approach, even though she seems also confused to a degree. For that matter,

Also, G55, I'm confused, can we ask direct question of the ghost like Morsul did? I thought not?

We can ask questions, we cannot give specific directions and I presume not any phantom-esque moves.

To be clear, I still don't trust you, but I'm putting those problems aside for toDay, because, in my opinion, we have to make the best choice from Morsul, Pitch, or sally if we want to fight on another day.

Feeling is mutual, especially with you and Morsul steering most of toDay's conversation from the onset.

Otherwise, I took a very quick look at Loslote's posts, and like I said, her votes were for innocents, so the Wolves would hardly have any reason to think her a Seer based on that. The one thing that jumped at me was her desperate defense yesterDay. That is something the WWs might have absolutely seen as a Gifted feeling threatened and cracking under pressure - and it probably was just that, only it was not the Seer, but the Ranger:
If there was a LottieWolf, maybe. I am not a wolf. You will get no information from lynching me, and the people who are spending the whole Day barking up this tree are giving the wolves perfect cover in which to operate. Please, just look at one (1) other person toDay. The village doesn’t benefit from wasting the whole day suspecting the same (innocent, believe it or not) person.
Well, yes. Several people have said nothing all Day except that I seem suspicious. I am getting tired of that - look at other options! My vote stands out because it was the deciding one. Well, if Pitch had voted before me and Huin had turned out to be innocent, maybe my vote would have been the throwaway vote and his would have been the one that saved Greenie and you all would think Pitch and Greenie were packmates. That's just the position we were both in at the end of yesterDay, because people didn't vote, and I strongly suspect two innocents were the ones most likely to go home. I made a decision. I didn't especially suspect Greenie, but I chose to keep Huin, and now you and Morsul are all but refusing to look at anyone else because of it. It is frustrating, and I am a bit touchy at this point. I'm not a wolf, and I really, really wish you guys would spend more time looking for wolves than just reiterating that you suspect me. I get it, I do, but please don't just let the wolves skate by completely unnoticed because you can't stop talking about me!
I think that outburst alone could have been a good sign of Giftedness. (And it is possible, however less likely, that the WWs might have decided to just go for someone they thought "a" Gifted, even if it was not "the" Gifted. Especially in this small village.)

Saddly I gotta rush off now. And like I said I'm going to be away for large part of toDay, but will be back hopefully several hours before DL, so as to have time to post and vote based on hopefully some more clarifying discussion. Sucks that I have to leave just when the Ghost seems to be around, maybe I'll manage to make some quick post still now, but I'm not betting on that.

EDIT: x-ed after my last

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 06:12 AM

Feeling is mutual, especially with you and Morsul steering most of toDay's conversation from the onset.

That's only fair. But I do answer with, you are also a steersman. Steering is in my nature just as much as it is in yours. I know where I'm steering, sometimes it is not straight, sometimes there are rapids ahead, and therefor it's better to take the longer path. Sometimes you must brave the rapids and risk losing folk with a true-heart in them. One thing I'm certain of, is I do not wish to be like my namesake and go straight over the falls of Rauros.

I agree there is more to do today than interpreting Form's messages and I like that there will be other conversations. For toDay, Legate perhaps it is a comfort to you that my steering is done. As Boromir says to Aragorn after Moria, "Lead on!" My flaw, I must often be reminded that 2 steersman, both with a good and loyal heart can pull in opposite directions. So my question to you, steersman, where are you going and what is your flaw?

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 06:51 AM

And seeing now Form is back...the other message. I think his post #273 it's clear he's enjoying being our ghost and therefor he's living out his dream of being a story-teller. :p

Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm

"perceived that he smiled," so we have interpreted the first message correctly? But wait, there's another "a new theme began amid the storm."

'Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf,' he said. 'And then you stopped, because you said that such matters were best left until daylight. Don't you think you had better finish now?

It's a "wait there's more, you said it was better left until daylight." Aren't you going to finish the message?

I never was into ghost stories, but I do love a ghost Form telling us stories. :D Now as to the message in #276 I haven't the slightest idea yet.

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 07:05 AM

Also, G55, I'm confused, can we ask direct question of the ghost like Morsul did? I thought not?

You can ask questions, you may not instruct him in how to answer or what to do.

Essentially, the goal is to Phantom-proof the idea and eliminate instructions like "If X is a wolf quote Gandalf, but if X is innocent quote Frodo".

Also, may as well say it now because I forgot to last evening. It was sort of agreed by lack of dissent on the Admjn thread that the Ghost role may be reevaluated after the first use and modified mid-game if needed. After toDay I will welcome feedback from all roles about the Ghost, and if the opinion sways a certain way then the next apparition may be subject to slightly different rules.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 07:30 AM

Here and catching up. There's eight players left now, five of us and three wolves. If we mislynch again, they get a kill, it's 3:3, game over. So we really need to lynch a wolf toDay.

And we have a ghost who speaks in riddles, as befits a conjured spirit. Got to say I just love this addition to the game, and Formy is rocking the role! Which leads me to the question if we should read anything into whom among them the Dead have chosen to be their spokesperson, especially since much has been speculated about the wolves killing Formy thinking him the Seer, and how this would implicate sally.

In the light of this, sending Formy to haunt us could mean

- either the Dead agree with this reasoning (although they couldn't know for sure, the real Seer still being alive) or

- they disagree and sent him to correct us.

Can you shed any light on this question, o Formerdacil?

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 07:49 AM

A quick correction:
Pitch - because he cautioned me yesterday about who I was trusting, but he himself has seemed to be pretty trusting towards me
You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.

Also

Originally Posted by Not at Home
"In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men.

Are the Dead cautioning us not to be led astray by disputes between two loud guys, which would probably mean Boro and Legate?

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 08:03 AM

You realise that a Wolf doing so would empower *their* bandwagon that way. And like I said, even if you were innocent, it is just plain irresponsible to vote before half of the village even showed up.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Form laid out the problem on day one lurkers getting a pass Sally has only posted like six times and only one of those had any information and included “no reads” on about half the village. Voted No One leaving exactly zero trail. Form’s death definitely implicated her especially with the ghost role(as outlined in one of my previous posts). She voted Lottie, based seemingly on her being “slightly more aggressive than usual” then Lottie is killed was she trying to off a Seer? I suspected Lottie but backed off because her last post was so emphatic I was convinced she was innocent.

Virtually nothing would dissuade me of her guilt. Even the seer reveal because it would simply be countered and then we’re down to guessing between the two anyway. That’s why the deer’s voting in post was an important part. But since I’m alone on that plan I pulled my nuclear option.

Let’s not leave out Sorimon’s Weird backwards logic vote that doubled down on Lottie following a wolf pack’s lead? Form called them both out they could’ve killed him not just for the Sally vote but to prevent him dreaming Sorimon too.

Edit: not important none of y’all gonna take the FormerForm journey with me? :p

Kath

04-25-2021, 08:07 AM

First off, I love the Ghost role. I've just read through the thread and GhostForm is clearly having the time of his life. :D

This from Lottie yesterDay.
My top suspicions now are Sally, for what feels like an unnecessarily narrow focus on me leading to her not tying herself in any way to potential packmates, and Pitch, for holding his vote yesterDay long enough to let me make the decision, because if both were innocent and he knew it, that way he wouldn't dirty his hands. I get weird vibes from Lommy, Boro, and Legate, but I haven't had time to parse through that and decide what it is that gives me the bad vibe from any of them, and I think I'm just overall confused about how I feel about them rather than suspicious, if that makes sense.

Apparently I'm in the minority of thinking that the wolves are trying to kill the Seer this game, but going with that assumption then sally, Pitch, Lommy, Boro and Legate are in the mix.

sally, I'm more than happy to vote for today. My suspicions of her from yesterDay haven't changed, and given that Morsul voted sally and then basically got a 'we're not sure but it's a pretty good shout' back from GhostForm, followed by the faux 'oh woe-is-me you're all so mean' from sally in post 261 ... well.

Pitch, Lommy and Legate I haven't much looked at yet so I will spend some time on that toDay.

With Boro's behaviour yesterDay, I read it as his oft-used strategy of: "Look at me, look at me! No don't look at them, I'M the Gifted one! No really - pay attention to meeee!" Ok yes maybe I'm oversimplifying but I read post #191 and just had to smile, and it also made me feel that he's innocent. The wolves would want to draw out Gifteds, not distract from them, so I'm feeling ok about Boro at the moment.

GhostForm's post in #276 ... I'm struggling. Is it that on Day 1 everyone had a choice, and then the reference to the little gardener - could that be Greenie. A Little Green. So then lots and none at all - lots of people voted for her but none at all were wolves? We already know Hui and Lottie, who voted Greenie, are innocent, so does that speak in Legate's favour possibly?

Anyway. sally is definitely top of my suspect list, and then I'll go look at Legate, Lommy, Pitch.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Many Meetings
He then pointed out and named

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Riders of Rohan
and five you have measured ere the

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ainulindalë
before aught else was made

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rider of Rohan
day is ended! Hardy is the race of Elendil!

Ghost
I'm not sure about the interpretation of "Five you have measured" as "people who got a vote on Day 1". There were six people who got votes that Day:
- Morsul
- myself
- Hui
- Greenie
- sally
- Lottie

By eliminating Greenie as known innocent, Boro pares that down to five, but then, why not eliminate Hui and Lottie as well, who are also known innocents?

Whereas there were five people who didn't get a vote D1:
- Boro
- Kath
- Legate
- Lommy
- Sori

So there could equally be a wolf among those five.

Also Formerdacil later adds this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three is Company
one of the Big People

Now I don't know whether any of the Dead have read Stephen Donaldson, but the original Pitchwife in his books is a Giant, and I talked about the five non-votees in a post yesterDay. Is that it?

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 08:20 AM

A quick correction:

You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.

Ahh, I see, that makes more sense. Well I took the "this is about sally and Boro" as you were telling me not to trust sally based on previous feelings.

Also

Are the Dead cautioning us not to be led astray by disputes between two loud guys, which would probably mean Boro and Legate?

No, I don't think that is the suggestion from the Dead at all. Look at how Form went about the first message.

He quoted about the "Vision of Iluvatar" that was "brief and soon taken away." So, this would be referencing the tidbit of info given to the innocent dead by our ModGods:

To clarify, as there are so far no wolves on the DT, the information so far was not picked by wolves but merely by yours truly and BG. However, it will be picked by wolves when/if a wolf dies, in the sense that they will be given a choice of 2-3 infodrops of which they select the one to be posted on the DT to be known to the Inno-Dead.

Then in Form's Post 273:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty.

Again referencing Iluvatar and a "new theme began" so another message. To decipher this one, as the first one, you have to look at the quotes that Form is trying to tell a story through several unconnected quotes. But all put together it contains the piece of information. To remove just 1 out and focus on that, distorts the "new theme," distorts the new message.

What that message is I'm hoping perhaps others can help, but think of it as trying to decipher the message by Form creating a story through unconnected quotes.

In the first message he quoted

"The Beginning of Days," "The First Day" "we elected and measured" So, the message was about the voting on Day 1.

Now this time, it appears to be something about another day's voting:

'The morning of two days ago, nigh on three days of journey! How far is the place where you parted?'

In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men.

I don't know if this is referring to Day 1 voting again as in "2 days ago, nigh on three." Or if he's trying to talk about 2 "phases" ago...if that makes sense? I would think if he was talking about Day 1 voting he would have chosen, the same as his first message quoting the "Beginning of Days" and "The First Day." Thus this could be something about Day 2 voting?

But I am going to need some help on this one.

Edit: crossed with Pitch and Kath

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 08:24 AM

"Boromir!" all the four men exclaimed.

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 08:26 AM

With Boro's behaviour yesterDay, I read it as his oft-used strategy of: "Look at me, look at me! No don't look at them, I'M the Gifted one! No really - pay attention to meeee!" Ok yes maybe I'm oversimplifying but I read post #191 and just had to smile, and it also made me feel that he's innocent. The wolves would want to draw out Gifteds, not distract from them, so I'm feeling ok about Boro at the moment.
Same.

GhostForm's post in #276 ... I'm struggling. Is it that on Day 1 everyone had a choice, and then the reference to the little gardener - could that be Greenie. A Little Green. So then lots and none at all - lots of people voted for her but none at all were wolves? We already know Hui and Lottie, who voted Greenie, are innocent, so does that speak in Legate's favour possibly?
I read the 'little gardener' as referring to Lottie, who started the game with a banter post about gardening, and who we now know was gifted.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Mirror of Galadriel
All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

I think I read this as a warning not to rely too much on the Dead (leave the Quest to others) and an admonition for all of us to participate.

EDIT: deleted a line from Kath's post that was copied into mine by mistake.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 08:30 AM

Pitch has made some strange arguments against Huin but I don't believe anyone should read into this.

Because you know Huin isn’t part of your pack?

I know there is a deadline but if I am not prompted to vote as per the rules I read somewhere can i abstain from voting? I'd hate to see an innocent villager lynched on account of our misguided voting, who is to say that these creatures will even strike again anyway?
The rules say it. The only good thing or rather less bad thing, this post comes before Sally’s no one vote but it’s notable they’re in lockstep on day one and two vote wise.

121 Sorimon is in Sally’s no read pile

Appologies for my scarce posts, I should have more time for this game in the coming days.

Of course, everyone can trust me! The meta gaming really gives me a free pass :).

I can follow this line of thinking and it does make sense to me, Huin does seem suspicious to me but I do not know if this is just his aggressive playstyle, I feel most people would aggressivley defend their life if they can but Huin also appears (at least to me) to favour shifting blame to others.

Wouldn't it be likely the wolves will follow the first votes on day one? After the first votes wovles can more safely vote without having to hold their vote to save a fellow wolf. If someone voted with a bandwagon there is still safety in the large group.

I can't be certain of anything but I hope Huin is on our side as he seems like a powerful ally.

That said I'm just going to lock in my vote for [high]++Lottie[/highlight] as Huins most likely packmate (if he is one of them) in my mind.

Then there’s this. Just this post and vote stinks to high heaven I like nothing about it. Especially the vote following Sally’s lead seemingly despite suspecting her(Lottie) less than Huin?

I posted in 251 IF my interpretation of the ghost quotes is right Sorimon and Sally are definitely possible packmates. But this post is more speculative. In that post Kath is the last but I can’t commit to that.

So based on their three posts as well as comparing to Sally’s I find them likely packmates. The third could be Kath but again this last point is Extremely speculative.

Xed a bunch

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 08:31 AM

By eliminating Greenie as known innocent, Boro pares that down to five, but then, why not eliminate Hui and Lottie as well, who are also known innocents?

Whereas there were five people who didn't get a vote D1:
- Boro
- Kath
- Legate
- Lommy
- Sori

So there could equally be a wolf among those five.

So, you're going to ignore Formendacil's confirmation it is those who RECEIVED votes on Day 1 in Post #255 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731143&postcount=255)

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 08:38 AM

So, you're going to ignore Formendacil's confirmation it is those who RECEIVED votes on Day 1 in Post #255 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731143&postcount=255)
Not ignoring it but wondering whether it only confirms your approach (that the five refers to D1 voting, not yesterDay's bandwagon) our your result as well.

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 08:39 AM

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 08:45 AM

Boro my only concern is FormerForm’s confirmation comes after your post and mine.

The question is if it’s confirming your interpretation or my vote.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 08:51 AM

It goes
253
Both quotes from Form!Ghost were talking about "before aught else was made" and "the First Day" So this is information about Day 1. "Those we have measured"...those who received votes on Day 1? So at least 1 wolf received a vote on Day 1.

Actually 6 people received a vote on Day 1.

Morsul
Pitch
Huey
Greenie
Sally
Lottie

But Greenie was the Day 1 lynch, so of the 5 others. At least 1 is a wolf. Huey, Lottie are now killed after Day 1. Leaving at least 1 wolf among

Morsul
Sally
Pitch

254
That’s probably a better interpretation. Mine would’ve been too easy.

So we’re thinking Sally or Pitch yes me too but I’m innocent. I really think this information taken with the strong possibility Form was killed as a seer...

I’ll take the plunge.

++Sally

255
FormerForm I think,' answered Frodo slowly, 'that it was a good guess, as far as it goes.

It’s notable Sally is in both interpretations. And while I like yours, Boro are we sure FormerForm isn’t endorsing my vote I even react to it in 256 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731144&postcount=256)

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 09:21 AM

Awlright I completely overlooked Formerdacil's #287. Suppose that settles it, and Boro was right.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 10:02 AM

Alright my vote for Lottie I think proves my innocence, I know it was a stange thing to switch my vote to Lottie over Huin. I thought that Huin was likely a wolf and if he was a wolf then lottie must be one too (sorry lottie my bad) and I felt like Huin was a stronger player to have as an ally if I was wrong.

My vote has to prove my innocence as why would a wolf waste a vote against Lottie if they planned to attack in the night?

I am very unsure of Legate and Boro and feel a bit lost on who to trust at this point. I'll be lurking for a while.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 10:07 AM

Alright my vote for Lottie I think proves my innocence, I know it was a stange thing to switch my vote to Lottie over Huin. I thought that Huin was likely a wolf and if he was a wolf then lottie must be one too (sorry lottie my bad) and I felt like Huin was a stronger player to have as an ally if I was wrong.

My vote has to prove my innocence as why would a wolf waste a vote against Lottie if they planned to attack in the night.

Because you voted pretty early and if you were successful in railroading her, you wouldn’t need to nightkill her.

I’m known for hard to follow logic but this defense is far beyond me.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 10:14 AM

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 10:32 AM

Boro my only concern is FormerForm’s confirmation comes after your post and mine.

The question is if it’s confirming your interpretation or my vote.

I believe that has been answered, by FormerForm in #287 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731196&postcount=287)

Ok, I'm going to have to start being a good guest, because people expect it of you on your birthday, but I'm also concerned with this eerie quiet. I think we have to make use of Form only being here for one day and there's still a message to decipher.

Seeing as we can ask him questions still and I'm stuck on the entire message, let's try to solve it one quote at a time.

Ghost!Form is your message in Post 276 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731179&postcount=276) referring to information the innocent dead have learned about Day 2 voting?

My thinking here is if you were referring to Day 1's voting you would have used the same quotes that you used in the first message. And in your 2nd quote "elected" appears again.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 10:38 AM

Because you voted pretty early and if you were successful in railroading her, you wouldn’t need to nightkill her.

I’m known for hard to follow logic but this defense is far beyond me.

Wolves are likely to vote together to ensure someone they choose dies, Lottie did not die but there were two votes for our ranger Sally and myself.
I suppose this falls apart if you think the wolves would've wanted Huin over Sally.

Anyway yes I admit a slightly tongue in cheek defence could be picked apart but you gotta believe me!

Anyway Morsul I like your idea to vote togeter and play the percentages. It's our best strategy in this position.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 10:46 AM

Wolves are likely to vote together to ensure someone they choose dies, Lottie did not die but there were two votes for our ranger Sally and myself.

Exactly. Two early votes just couldn’t get the village to bite.

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 11:00 AM

"A second good night, fair friends!"

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 11:12 AM

Anyway Morsul I like your idea to vote togeter and play the percentages. It's our best strategy in this position.
Okay, I'm willing to cut Sori a lot of slack, this being their first game and all, but this is bovine faeces. Suppose for a moment you could get all of the village to agree on one person to vote, which is about as likely to happen as daisies in Mordor (for one thing, nobody's going to vote themselves. The wolves will happily agree to vote anybody who isn't one of the pack. Suppose we go through with Morsul's plan and everybody piles on his vote for sally, then if she's innocent, game over, wolf victory. How is this our best strategy in this position?
To be clear, I'm more suspicious of Morsul for suggesting such a thing in the first place than of a newbie for agreeing with it.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 11:44 AM

Okay, I'm willing to cut Sori a lot of slack, this being their first game and all, but this is bovine faeces. Suppose for a moment you could get all of the village to agree on one person to vote, which is about as likely to happen as daisies in Mordor (for one thing, nobody's going to vote themselves. The wolves will happily agree to vote anybody who isn't one of the pack. Suppose we go through with Morsul's plan and everybody piles on his vote for sally, then if she's innocent, game over, wolf victory. How is this our best strategy in this position?
To be clear, I'm more suspicious of Morsul for suggesting such a thing in the first place than of a newbie for agreeing with it.

But the main point is they agreed without voting. I think we have a wolf trying to figure out what to do. Vote for their packmate or wait for a better bandwagon.

Kath

04-25-2021, 11:46 AM

This will be kind of train-of-thought, sorry.

Lommy - post 24 has Morsul as suspicious for their reaction to Hui, and Hui as suspicious for being Hui. Non-committal really. Suggests a Pitch+Legate/Hui pack due to Pitch's meta-argument about prior games. Post 47 mentions everyone, leaves everyone undecided, except maybe Pitch and Lottie with a little bit stronger suspicion. Post 49 her suspicion list has Form, Hui, Lottie, Pitch. If Lommy were a wolf, I'd be looking at Pitch as a fellow as the other three are all dead and proven innocent.

Suspicion of Lottie stays consistent into Day 2. Thinks she is letting sally off the hook, then suggests a Lottie/sally/Hui pack. If Lommy is a wolf, good way to bury a fellow between two now known to be innocents. Thinks it unlikely in post 136 that Form was killed for potential Seerishness, but if he was it either speaks to Hui's innocence or sally's guilt. In post 181 in essence 'clears' Hui, Legate, Boro, Morsul, Lottie, sally and then suspicious of me for 'easy' votes. Wants to vote me or Pitch, but would go for sally. Feel like we hadn't had a mention of Pitch for a while there, and that she's finding a way to avoid a vote for sally without avoiding a vote for sally. In post 196 mentions she would have been worried if Lottie had reached 2 votes first - quite a swing from the earlier quite high level suspicion.

In post 266 says she felt confident of Lottie's innocence. She did flip into this from post 181. Comes out gunning for Boro for orchestrating the Hui lynch, I'd like an explanation of what she means by that, given by her own admission she decided Hui was innocent based on her analysis of Form and then voted Hui anyway. Also suspicious of Morsul for voting early. Analyses Lottie's death and comes out with Pitch, sally, Morsul as possible suspects - which matches GhostForm's hinting if we've read that right.
Votes:
Hui (puts Hui into the lead with 2 votes)
Hui (makes a third tie at 2 people, others were sally and Lottie)

Pitch - post 27 no opinion on Morsul, Form, Lottie, sally. Feels good on Greenie and Boro. Some suspicion of Hui (pokey mode), Lommy (non-engagement) and then Legate (forgetting his last game). Suspicious further of Lommy in post 38 for having vague suspicions of two people who could easily become bandwagons. Decides Hui/Morsul both innocent. Questions my reasoning about the same debate. In post 54 happy with Boro, names a possible wolf pack made up of Hui, Lommy, Lottie, Kath. So almost returning the favour on Lommy. Can't decide if that makes them more or less likely to be fellows as it stands out a bit on a re-read, but then I suppose only because of the knowledge we now have. I don't know whether post 98 speaks in his favour in hindsight - choosing between Greenie and Hui, both of whom he'd largely considered innocent through the Day. Not really any benefit to a Pitchwolf pushing for one over the other, and if a wolf would have known it made no difference, but then, it made no difference, so a Pitchwolf could have gone either way anyway.

Pointed out Lottie's inconsistent voting plans in post 142 and questioned her on it. Suggests there is a wolf in Boro, Kath, Legate, Lommy, Sori. As this is half the village, it's hardly much of a stretch to think he's right! Out of those, has Kath (for focus on sally) and Legate (for suggesting not lynching someone he finds suspicious) as possibilities for voting. Would have been willing to vote Kath, Legate, Boro, Hui.

Suggests GhostForm's comments may actually have meant the people who didn't get a vote, similar to his argument yesterDay. Then says he's wrong given GhostForm's seeming to confirm Boro's version is right. If so, how does Pitch now feel about the Pitch/sally/Morsul potential choice? Ah, suspicious of Morsul in post 303.
Votes:
Hui (last, and made no difference to the lynch)
Hui (already ahead and sealed his fate, so no impact again)

Legate - post 16 points out Hui and Greenie for focusing in on Boro and pointless day 1s. It is worth noting that they were the only two to have really said anything about another person at all at this point. Then continues to focus on them in post 26, keeping up the idea that Greenie was rewording the suspicions of others for herself, and that Hui was overfocused on Boro and day 1s. Suggested a Hui/Boro pairing. Ends up suspicious of Greenie, Hui and Pitch overall in post 57. Interestingly names Pitch as Cobbler, which I know we'd thrown around during the Day a couple of times but we knew there wasn't one so if this was really how Legate was feeling about Pitch I'm surprised that didn't go anywhere.

Vote analysis in post 124 suggested Lommy, Hui, Pitch and Boro as having possibly suspicious votes. Post 137 seems to sum up to Hui and Lottie being worrisome based on their posting, and then Boro for his antics. Then backtracks on Hui due to their latest post. In post 168 thinks one of Pitch/Lottie likely to be a wolf and suggests Pitch the more likely candidate. Now we know it isn't Lottie, how do you feel about Pitch? Worried about Soriman's vote which was rather oddly reasoned. Has Pitch, Boro then maybe Hui as lynch options.
Votes:
Greenie (first vote for her 5 people in)
Hui (puts them into the lead)

Hmmm - I don't know. I think I'm being drawn into seeing a sally/Lommy/Pitch pack. sally I think is a wolf regardless of the other two, and Lommy/Pitch seemed to coincide a fair bit when I was reading through. I think that I started off with a feeling that Lommy was suspicious though (perhaps because I think sally is a wolf, and Lommy seems to be quite diligently trying to avoid making a decision there) so that may have coloured my opinions. With that said, Pitch has a voting record that is both squeaky clean and damning at the same time, and Lommy brought Hui in as a third candidate on Day 2. But then Legate really had the strongest effect on the Hui lynch there and did cross post with Lommy.

I don't know. But sally/Lommy/Pitch is where I'm at currently.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 12:16 PM

But the main point is they agreed without voting. I think we have a wolf trying to figure out what to do. Vote for their packmate or wait for a better bandwagon.

No point wasting my vote while i'm still unsure and nobody else has agreed that we should play the favourable odds by voting the same.

I'm leaning more towards Legate or Pitch but I need to re-read some of the thread, some of those legate posts are long and slippery.

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by The Return Journey
"A second good night, fair friends!"

Ahh, so it appears the information has something pertaining to the second night? Something with Lottie being killed, which I see Pitch looks right about the 4th quote in Form's riddle:

Originally Posted by Farewell to Lórien
'For you little gardener and lover of trees,' she said to Sam, 'I have only a small gift.'

Would be referring to Lottie, since she posted about gardening on Day 1. Any ideas on what they have to tell use about Lottie's death? Other than the obvious she was the Ranger?

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 12:22 PM

Naught has been seen in Harrowdale of these evil things.

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 12:23 PM

I've had a brief look through Morsul's and sally's posts.

Morsul:

It struck me that on D1 he had Kath among his top suspects for her early vote, admitting it could have been based on her time zone but she could be using this as an easy defense.

Then toDay he casts an early vote himself and defends it saying "A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power." Double standard much?

He has been very vocal pushing the idea that Form was killed by a wolf pack including sally under the assumption that he was the Seer and dreamed her. If, on the other hand, the pack had killed Form to frame sally they'd want to make sure to keep mentioning how the kill pointed to her, which could be what Morsul is doing.

He also suspected Lottie yesterDay and speculated she might be packmates with sally and Hui. As we now know two of these three were innocent I'm wary of his dogged pursuit of the third.

Last not last, I'm not a fan of his plans in his first post toDay, especially not on the "let's all vote together" as above.

sally:
Nothing at all on D1. D2 she trusted Boro and myself on gut feeling, suspected Lommy (again, gut feeling) and Lottie (found her too agressive for an Ordlote), no idea about Huri, Sori and Legate.
She thought I had some great points about Lottie, found her more suspicious the more she talked and ended up voting her.

Now if sally is a wolf who was pressed for time yesterDay, piggybacking on my points against Lottie would have been an easy way to justify her vote, and also to justify going after Lottie rather than Lommy if Lommy is another wolf. Also buddying up to me.

It's a tough call. I want to suspect Morsul but how much of it is just because I often find his way of thinking weird? Overall the impression I get from him is posting what goes through his mind and confound the consequences. I want to trust sally but I can see her more easily as a sly and manipulative wolf. Blergh.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 12:30 PM

I've had a brief look through Morsul
Morsul:

Then toDay he casts an early vote himself and defends it saying "A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power." Double standard much?

Double standard criticism is fair except the numbers and strategy on day one va day three are vastly different.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 12:37 PM

Morsul:
He has been very vocal pushing the idea that Form was killed by a wolf pack...

He also suspected Lottie yesterDay and speculated she might be packmates with sally and Hui. As we now know two of these three were innocent I'm wary of his dogged pursuit of the third.

Yes exactly, I don't think Sally should be the focus for today.
I do not believe Morsul is a wolf and think his bandwagon excuse for an early vote holds some sway when you consider the wolves will win if we get this wrong.

Edit: Are you guys calling it a crossed post when you replied without seeing the most recent reply?

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by The Muster of Rohan
Naught has been seen in Harrowdale of these evil things.
Ghost

Ahh, ok I take that as a no the dead's message is not about last night's kill.

Oof...I've racked my brain too much on this so going to let it be for now and think on the task at hand.

It's a tough call. I want to suspect Morsul but how much of it is just because I often find his way of thinking weird? Overall the impression I get from him is posting what goes through his mind and confound the consequences. I want to trust sally but I can see her more easily as a sly and manipulative wolf. Blergh.

I see Morsul's early vote as a hasty plunge, without knowing what else could be learned from today. It's not something I would do, but Morsul isn't me, so is it something a hasty Wolf!Morsul would do?

I'm more worried of sally's reaction, which looked like a concession and resignation that she will be lynched today. I just can't see an innocent sally reacting that way, even one that has been very busy so far, because she would know that if she is innocent and lynched, without the Ranger, it's over.

Particularly with she stated she was "inclined to believe Morsul is a misguided innocent" which means, an innocent sally *should* have started suspecting Pitch. But she does not do this, does not say anything about Pitch, just seemed resigned to her fate and tried to guilt trip us into thinking it would be too obvious to kill Form Night 1 if she was a wolf.

This could mean, Morsul is a wolf who voted for his mate sally, because there was already a plan to sacrifice herself if she was in trouble today. Although Morsul's hasty vote doesn't seem to be wolf-on-wolf, and if they are both wolves, why would Morsul not vote for Pitch? *seconded the bleurgh*

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 12:56 PM

Edit: Are you guys calling it a crossed post when you replied without seeing the most recent reply?

Yes.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 01:03 PM

Yes exactly, I don't think Sally should be the focus for today.
At least not the exclusive focus, and concentrating only on the trio implied by the Ghost (sally, Morsul, me) lets too many people sail under the radar unquestioned.

I can see sally and Lommy being in a pack, as Kath suggests (though obviously not with me).

I think I can also see a tandem between Kath and Morsul - Kath brought up the idea that Form's death points to sally, and Morsul keeps pushing it, also from the above trio Kath picks me and sally as her wolf choices but says nothing (as far as I see) about Morsul.

Actually, as per Form's message we don't know whether there were one or more werewolves among the "five you have measured", do we?

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 01:13 PM

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

Ghost

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 01:15 PM

For Boro, I wasn't resigned so much as in a lot of pain and didn't want to lash out unnecessarily, so I went out of my way not to blame Morsul.

I still think Morsul is a misguided innocent, but that misguided vote will cost us the game. Don't make his mistake. Vote for almost literally anyone else.

(AKA Here I am again.)

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 01:28 PM

First off: feeling really bad about the Huin lynch, on multiple levels. I can't believe I noticed Form's death made him more likely innocent and ignored that
Reading this, I didn't rememnber what Lommy is talking about, so I went back and found this:
#61 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730732&postcount=61) argues for Hui's innocence while acknowledging he might be making a terrible mistake. This makes Hui look a bit better to me - I guess the wolves could have interpreted this post as seer!Form defending his known innocent?
But how would it have occurred to Lommy that the wolves thought Form was defending a dreamed innocent (ergo making Hui look better) if she didn't know that Hui was innocent to begin with? :eek:

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 01:32 PM

Not doing quote yet, but a list for now. Obviously I was wrong about Lottie, and we have more information now, so I've done a little rearranging. Sticking with two categories since it's later in the Day.

Would vote....
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Sori

Wouldn't vote....
Boro
Morsul
Pitch

Quotes incoming.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 01:53 PM

OK, sally, if I understand you right then you, Boro and Morsul are all innocent, as well as myself (which I knew already). Of course I'd be happy to believe that.

But then what of the message of the Dead that seems to say one of you, Morsul and me is a wolf? Do the Dead lie?

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 02:02 PM

Double standard criticism is fair except the numbers and strategy on day one va day three are vastly different.
Yes, and an early vote toDay is much more dangerous than an early vote on D1. You realise if the wolves all pile on your vote and sally is first to get 4 votes, then even if the rest of us all vote a wolf it's still game over in case she's innocent, right?

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:04 PM

Yes, and an early vote toDay is much more dangerous than an early vote on D1. You realise if the wolves all pile on your vote and sally is first to get 4 votes, then even if the rest of us all vote a wolf it's still game over in case she's innocent, right?

They already would have.

Kath

04-25-2021, 02:05 PM

I think I can also see a tandem between Kath and Morsul - Kath brought up the idea that Form's death points to sally, and Morsul keeps pushing it, also from the above trio Kath picks me and sally as her wolf choices but says nothing (as far as I see) about Morsul.
Fair point!

Morsul:
Day 1:
Post 14 states Hui is least suspicious. Many, myself included, found that a strong statement so early on. Post 19 this immediately switched as Morsul then thought Hui was focusing too much on their posts and that it would be a wolf pushing toward a bandwagon. I questioned the switch, more because saying Hui was least suspicious seemed odder to me than then moving to finding them suspicious later. Just seemed a very strong statement so early on. Morsul clearly feels attacked and in post 43 says they'll probably vote Hui, I guess out of self-preservation. In post 55 also mentions Boro as a suspect for seeming convinced of Morsul's innocence. Bearing in mind this was all long after I'd voted, when I read through all this with the benefit of hindsight there is definitely a feel of annoyed innocent.
Voted Hui for seeming to bandwagon while saying they didn't want to.

Day 2:
Morsul is one of the first posters of the Day and immediately looks at Form. Concludes that the Night kill likely either makes sally a wolf, or it's a frame job. Found Lottie's vote for Greenie suspicious because it meant she'd voted against her previous suspicions. Not quite sure who is being referred to here:
Also the toss up slightly puts Huin into a tiny bit of suspicion because could’ve been saving a pack mate. But would she put her neck that far out for a pack mate on day 1?
List post 114 is odd, mostly because of the order of the suspects. So, they voted for Hui the Day before and are still suspicious, but have sally higher up the list despite just saying 'definitely needs to post more' about her. Made quite a good point I felt in post 129 but that's probably because it followed my thinking on the Form-Seer idea. I agree with post 145 and said something very similar - ends up with a wolf pack of sally/Lottie/Hui. With what we know now, could be a Morsulwolf hiding a packmates in with innocents. With that said, Morsul has been pretty focused on sally through the Day. And indeed has Lottie followed by sally at the top ones to vote for. sally being a wolf here doesn't mean Morsul isn't, especially as Lottie had been mentioned a lot through the Day and was quite a reasonable assumption for a Morsulwolf to think she'd get the votes over a sally packmate. But it is a relatively bold play and there was still definitely a chance of sally gaining votes. Then in post 154 backs right off Lottie.
Voted sally (first vote, so could be considered safe if wolf on wolf as it's the first one with no guarantee anyone would follow, and a lot of people talking about Lottie instead)

Day 3:
The 'plans' in Morsul's first post are the kind of thing that work in theory, but in practice? No. However, their point about an innocent voting the wrong person and the wolves jumping on it was a fair one. I understand the concern about throwing an early vote out, but Morsul votes sally not very long after this, and so far ... no jumping. Post 251 in conjunction with Boro uses Form's quotes to get to a suspect list of Morsul, sally, Pitch. However, in post 289 is then looking at a wolfpack of sally, Sori, Kath. Why the switch there Morsul, as I thought you'd agreed with Boro?
Voted sally.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 02:08 PM

Guys don't waste your vote on me I'm harmless I swear, yes perhaps my arguments are backwards and minimalistic but honestly I couldn't eat someone!
I was guided to vote lottie when my gut feeling was Huin, snippets of Legate's posts (I remember #168 standing out) influenced this and because of this I am wary of him.

I'm not going to vote for Sally today after being so wrong about Huin and Lottie.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:10 PM

Day 3:
The 'plans' in Morsul's first post are the kind of thing that work in theory, but in practice? No. However, their point about an innocent voting the wrong person and the wolves jumping on it was a fair one. I understand the concern about throwing an early vote out, but Morsul votes sally not very long after this, and so far ... no jumping. Post 251 in conjunction with Boro uses Form's quotes to get to a suspect list of Morsul, sally, Pitch. However, in post 289 is then looking at a wolfpack of sally, Sori, Kath. Why the switch there Morsul, as I thought you'd agreed with Boro?
Voted sally.

I agree one of them is a wolf(Sally) that leaves two I’m 80% sure Sorimon is the second it’s the third I’m far less confident on with no one going over 25% at most.

Kath

04-25-2021, 02:11 PM

Wouldn't vote....
Boro
Morsul
Pitch

Assuming she's not planning to self-vote, then sally is going completely off-piste from the message we think we've got from GhostForm. sally, can you explain what you think he meant by the quotes instead then?

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 02:13 PM

Can I be honest I don’t care if we win or lose. This ghost thing is fun. Form is just top notch on the quotes

Well I care! So stop voting for me! I do love the quotes though. This is indeed phenomenal.

Also if Lommy en't innocent she's faking it well enough for an Oscar.

Which she's done before, so I'm not surprised.

First off: feeling really bad about the Huin lynch, on multiple levels. I can't believe I noticed Form's death made him more likely innocent and ignored that :rolleyes: I find that every time I ignore reason in favour of gut-feeling OR ignore gut-feeling in favour of reason I pick the wrong thing to follow. I would say, I'm sorry Huin, but since this worked in your favour last time (me ignoring your wolvish vibes because I had no actual proof you were a wolf, and you were), let's call it... even? :p

Yeah, why is that? Perhaps because you're a furry person? My gut is only supported by Lommy's readiness to go along with lynches she herself has disagreed with if they suit her.

Also Morsul!!!! Why are you voting so early!! When you just said yourself we have to think carefully toDay??? As far as I see, you haven't really spent much time toDay analysing anybody or wondering why Lottie was killed. You just want us all to follow your gut? Geez, I don't like this. Okay, possibly a wolf would not be so brazen but you're narrowing our options on a whim and I don't like that. Or maybe Sally looks like a convenient target others might get behind because she's hardly been here but she's been suspected? Red flags. (I still don't have much of an opinion on Sally, since she hasn't been around. But I see she has a posted toDay already. Good.)

I don't know. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who's willing to dig a trench and go hard from the beginning of the Day - that's what someone who knows who are on their side and who aren't would do. As has been pointed out, toDay is likely crucial. Therefore the wolves need to direct the village to lynch one of their own. They can go hard. They probably decided last Night who they're gunning for toDay. The rest of us can't afford tunnel vision like that, we have to actually think.

I agree with her reasoning regarding Morsul, but again, I think he's just a misguided innocent. I think Lommy is jumping too hard to my defense, which is in itself another bit of suspicion.

Can someone explain to me that since when is one of Morsul, Sally and Pitch a werewolf?

And since this seems to come from Form's posts, how would the dead know? Since we don't have a dead seer? I doubt G55 would straight up tell them who the wolves are.

Either I'm slow or there's something straight up shady going on with Boro and Morsul.

Again making a good point, but it doesn't make me trust her any more.

That's only fair. But I do answer with, you are also a steersman. Steering is in my nature just as much as it is in yours. I know where I'm steering, sometimes it is not straight, sometimes there are rapids ahead, and therefor it's better to take the longer path. Sometimes you must brave the rapids and risk losing folk with a true-heart in them. One thing I'm certain of, is I do not wish to be like my namesake and go straight over the falls of Rauros.

I agree there is more to do today than interpreting Form's messages and I like that there will be other conversations. For toDay, Legate perhaps it is a comfort to you that my steering is done. As Boromir says to Aragorn after Moria, "Lead on!" My flaw, I must often be reminded that 2 steersman, both with a good and loyal heart can pull in opposite directions. So my question to you, steersman, where are you going and what is your flaw?

I could wax poetic about my suspicions of Legate, but honestly, Boro encapsulates it well here.

OK, sally, if I understand you right then you, Boro and Morsul are all innocent, as well as myself (which I knew already). Of course I'd be happy to believe that.

But then what of the message of the Dead that seems to say one of you, Morsul and me is a wolf? Do the Dead lie?

No, but they are fallible. Remember, our seer is still among us somewhere, so the dead have nothing to go on but their opinions.

x'd since my last, and breaking for lunch

Kath

04-25-2021, 02:14 PM

I agree one of them is a wolf(Sally) that leaves two I’m 80% sure Sorimon is the second it’s the third I’m far less confident on with no one going over 25% at most.
I've just worked this out, sorry. As in out of Morsul, sally, Pitch you're saying sally is the wolf and then working out who would be in the pack alongside. (Assuming it's not you of course ...)

I suppose it's just that we've no guarantee there is only one wolf in Morsul/sally/Pitch that had thrown me there.

Given Sori's strange posts it would be tempting to say wolf!

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 02:22 PM

They already would have.
Fair point.

Then again, if sally's #316 and #318 are a last ditch attempt by satansawerewolf to sway toDay's voting, who are her packmates? I know I'm not a wolf, I'm leaning Boro isn't either, I don't know about Morsul but he has been gunning for her two Days straight. What does she have to gain from keeping us around? Boro and I understand, if she figures we're more likely to trust her, but Morsul?
More importantly, why would she want us to vote any of Kath, Legate, Lommy or Sori? If Boro and Morsul aren't her packmates, they must be among these four, so why put them up for voting?

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:25 PM

I've just worked this out, sorry. As in out of Morsul, sally, Pitch you're saying sally is the wolf and then working out who would be in the pack alongside. (Assuming it's not you of course ...)

I suppose it's just that we've no guarantee there is only one wolf in Morsul/sally/Pitch that had thrown me there.

Given Sori's strange posts it would be tempting to say wolf!

Aye it Could be Sally and Pitch are packmates but I don’t have any screaming lights pointing at Pitch.

Also Sally the dead do get information it’s just as i understand the rules cryptic to them and then filtered through quotes to us. Like a weird game of telephone interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation of a riddle. But certainly not nothing.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 02:28 PM

No, but they are fallible. Remember, our seer is still among us somewhere, so the dead have nothing to go on but their opinions.
This is just not true. They don't know anyone's roles for sure, but they get snippets of info from the moddesses to work with, and they thought these important enough to send Form as a Ghost to pass them on to us. As per these messages, if Boro has interpreted them correctly (which Form confirmed in #287), at least one of five people who got votes on D1 is a wolf. Eliminating known innocents, that leaves you, Morsul and me. So?

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 02:31 PM

In light of recent posts, yet another rules reminder. The Dead HAVE gotten Infodrops on both N2 and N3. This info was not concrete information as could befit a seer. It is not truly cryptic in the sense that you have to figure out a riddle, more just vague. Information that may limit your range of possibilities in certain scenarios but does not point to any one specific scenario being true.

Does that make sense? In 5 words: the Dead have vague facts.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 02:32 PM

Okay, I stand partially corrected. They have info, but they could still be wrong.

Or I could be wrong, and Pitch or Morsul could be a wolf. That's equally possible, though I've seen nothing from Pitch I would find suspicious.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:35 PM

l
I was guided to vote lottie when my gut feeling was Huin, snippets of Legate's posts (I remember #168 standing out) influenced this and because of this I am wary of him.

Legate didn’t vote Lottie though. Also you voted in 167.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 02:36 PM

Back, writing as I go...

GhostForm's post in #276 ... I'm struggling. Is it that on Day 1 everyone had a choice, and then the reference to the little gardener - could that be Greenie. A Little Green. So then lots and none at all - lots of people voted for her but none at all were wolves? We already know Hui and Lottie, who voted Greenie, are innocent, so does that speak in Legate's favour possibly?
I thought gardener referred to Lottie with her gardening, but I have zero idea what the rest of the post is supposed to mean.

Boro my only concern is FormerForm’s confirmation comes after your post and mine.

The question is if it’s confirming your interpretation or my vote.
That is exactly what I have been wondering about from the morning. I think we have one Ghost and a hundred interpreters, and everybody seems to be operating with the assumption that what they said is correct.

Alright my vote for Lottie I think proves my innocence, I know it was a stange thing to switch my vote to Lottie over Huin. I thought that Huin was likely a wolf and if he was a wolf then lottie must be one too (sorry lottie my bad) and I felt like Huin was a stronger player to have as an ally if I was wrong.
WHAT? That does not make any sense whatsoever.

I’m known for hard to follow logic but this defense is far beyond me.
Word.

Soriman, are you aware that by that logic, your vote for person A is completely dependent on the fact that person B is a Wolf - something you would not know? (And they were not.) But most of all, it say nothing whatsoever about your innocence or guilt.

But the main point is they agreed without voting. I think we have a wolf trying to figure out what to do. Vote for their packmate or wait for a better bandwagon.
Hm, but so by your logic, if the Wolves agreed what to do, they would have a bandwagon ready. Which is exactly what you are doing.

Actually, as per Form's message we don't know whether there were one or more werewolves among the "five you have measured", do we?
Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.
Okay, so this at least may be one clear clarification for the whole Day. But so that would mean at least somebody in "the five". But I would still like to make it clear, the five are the people who got votes minus Greenie, or those who did not get vote, who were five? Form confirmed several times Boro but was it specifically about this, or was it that he was roughly correct in terms of the whole posts he spoke? I would just like to have one clear statement on this because that may be relevant not only toDay, but for the future. And I don't think it has been said 100% clearly.

EDIT: x-ed with some

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 02:40 PM

Do you really know it all, or are you just guessing still?

I may have started with guesses about Gollum, but I am not guessing now. I know.

Ghost

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:43 PM

Hm, but so by your logic, if the Wolves agreed what to do, they would have a bandwagon ready. Which is exactly what you are doing.

The second point is arguable but I’ll cede it in the sense that I stand by my vote and think it’s right and therefore do hope others join me.

The first half is not correct(as I understand) They don’t have a bandwagon ready in the sense they have a name (if that’s what you mean) but that they’re waiting for someone to vote the wrong way and jump on it. Whether or not they discussed this I couldn’t say but I think it’s a fairly obvious strategy.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 02:45 PM

So I take this as a confirmation of the confirmation of what was said. Okay, good to have this out of the way.

EDIT: x-ed with Morsul

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 02:47 PM

I think FormerForm(seriously guys it’s right there GhostForm is ok but FormerForm is just chef’s kiss.) i think it’s been confirmed we’re on the right track.

Xed with Legate
PS #FormerFormForFormalFormedFormations

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 02:51 PM

Legate didn’t vote Lottie though. Also you voted in 167.

Yes Legate didn't vote lottie and appologies I had rememebered reading and agreeing with the points in #168 but yes you are right i'd alread locked in my vote in post #167, Legate casts suspicion on Lottie as early as #124 and just because they voted Huin doesn't mean they didn't plant seeds to get Lottie some votes.

My more suspicious behaviour can be explained away as me having some fun but let me make it clear If I am lynched tonight then the wolves win! I don't want to vote sally after Lottie and Huin were found innocent.

If you wish I am happy to self vote as a way to prove (kind of) my innocence but I'd prefer not to.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 02:56 PM

If you wish I am happy to self vote as a way to prove (kind of) my innocence but I'd prefer not to.
For Angband's sake if you're innocent and you self-vote you give the wolves a vote to pile on whydoIhavetoexplainthishaventwetalkedaboutitbefore and at the moment you're making it way too easy!

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 02:58 PM

And can I just say for starters the ghost is so much fun? :D

So, Form confirmed Boro's interpretation of his message was correct over Pitch's? Interesting. I still don't follow Form's #276, I'm afraid. (Have I mentioned I've always sucked in riddles? Not ideal for a game like this.)

Anyway, it's something to remember that Boro favours a theory that implicates Pitch/Sally/Morsul, while Pitch favours a theory that implicates Boro / Kath / Legate / Lommy / Sori. This could come in handy if we survive toDay, because it tells what direction each of them is willing to take the lynch toDay.

Soriman is again making me go ??????

In post 196 mentions she would have been worried if Lottie had reached 2 votes first - quite a swing from the earlier quite high level suspicion.Yes, I found Lottie suspicious at first for her tunnel vision but after her lashing out and defending her innocence very much like a frustrated ordo towards the end of Day2, I changed my mind about her, and I did not want her to get lynched, especially since she was at that point tied with Sally, whom I didn't (and don't) consider particularly innocent.

Comes out gunning for Boro for orchestrating the Hui lynch, I'd like an explanation of what she means by that, given by her own admission she decided Hui was innocent based on her analysis of Form and then voted Hui anyway.You mean why did I say Boro orchestrated the Hui lynch? Because he made a big case against him and gave him the first vote, introducing him as a viable candidate when before that I think many people (myself included) had been vaguely suspicious of him but not really considering voting him (or that's my read of the situation). Boro as much as admitted having done this intentionally (or again, that's how I read it) when he said something along the lines of "see, this is how just one vote can start a bandwagon?"

And I think you are misrepresenting me a little. I didn't decide Hui was innocent based on Form's death, just that Form's death made him look better, moving him from "suspicious" to "unsure" in my mind. (And yeah I still voted for him because I was too tempted to resolve the Gordian knot of him and Boro and Legate - which sadly doesn't seem to have been resolved by Huin's death at all, in hindsight - since nobody else seemed very eager to vote those I suspected (even) more than Huin, namely you and Pitchwife.)

Speaking of this Form-Huin thing:

Originally Posted by Lommy #136
#61 argues for Hui's innocence while acknowledging he might be making a terrible mistake. This makes Hui look a bit better to me - I guess the wolves could have interpreted this post as seer!Form defending his known innocent?
But how would it have occurred to Lommy that the wolves thought Form was defending a dreamed innocent (ergo making Hui look better) if she didn't know that Hui was innocent to begin with? *raises an eyebrow* Seriously, Pitch, did you not read the rest of that post of mine or did you wilfully take this out of context? I was looking for instances where Form talked about someone's guilt or innocence in a clear way. Ergo, that the wolves' might have considered seer dreams. And my conclusion was that his clearest opinions - which still weren't very clear btw - were that he trusted Huin and mistrusted Sally. So if the wolves picked him based on what he said about other players, it was either because Huin is innocent or because Sally is a wolf. So if you are asking how could I know that Huin is innocent, why aren't you asking me how could I know that Sally is a wolf? Does not compute.

I have no idea what to think about Kath saying that suggesting her and Morsul are packmates is a "fair point". Really?

Side note: speaking of voting - let's not forget the dead can break a tie. While they don't know any better than us, we can at least trust them to have good intentions.

Yeah, why is that? Perhaps because you're a furry person? My gut is only supported by Lommy's readiness to go along with lynches she herself has disagreed with if they suit her.For the last time, I did not find Huin innocent. I wouldn't have voted him if I thought he was innocent. Yes, I found a point that could be in his favour, and then looking at the overall picture, decided to ignore that particular point. You don't have to kick me for it, I'm already doing it myself, trust me.

Also Morsul!!!! Why are you voting so early!! When you just said yourself we have to think carefully toDay??? As far as I see, you haven't really spent much time toDay analysing anybody or wondering why Lottie was killed. You just want us all to follow your gut? Geez, I don't like this. Okay, possibly a wolf would not be so brazen but you're narrowing our options on a whim and I don't like that. Or maybe Sally looks like a convenient target others might get behind because she's hardly been here but she's been suspected? Red flags. (I still don't have much of an opinion on Sally, since she hasn't been around. But I see she has a posted toDay already. Good.)

I don't know. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who's willing to dig a trench and go hard from the beginning of the Day - that's what someone who knows who are on their side and who aren't would do. As has been pointed out, toDay is likely crucial. Therefore the wolves need to direct the village to lynch one of their own. They can go hard. They probably decided last Night who they're gunning for toDay. The rest of us can't afford tunnel vision like that, we have to actually think.
I agree with her reasoning regarding Morsul, but again, I think he's just a misguided innocent. I think Lommy is jumping too hard to my defense, which is in itself another bit of suspicion.???? If you are innocent, why would defending you be suspicious? This is an extremely odd thing to say, especially about a post that was rather anti-Morsul than pro-you. Idk, Sally, now that you finally are around, I'm not very impressed by what I'm seeing.

Do you guys know what would be the funniest thing ever? If the pack was Sally AND Morsul AND Pitch. :D:D Frankly, it looks fairly possible. This post of Sally's certainly made me think there could be a Sally-Morsul connection at least.

edit: xed with everyone after Legate's longer post

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 02:58 PM

If you wish I am happy to self vote as a way to prove (kind of) my innocence but I'd prefer not to.

NO. DO NOT DO THAT.

Don't vote me either, because same result, but never, ever self-vote at such a crucial time.

x'd with Lommy

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:00 PM

Soriman, if you're innocent, you should not self-vote.

If you're a wolf, however, it sounds like a great strategy. ;)

edit: xed with Sally

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 03:02 PM

Soriman, are you aware that by that logic, your vote for person A is completely dependent on the fact that person B is a Wolf - something you would not know? (And they were not.)

Yes my vote was dependant on trusting in Huin being a wolf I picked my second highest candidate due to being influenced and thinking Huin was good at the game and it would be a shame to lose him if I was wrong about him.
But most of all, it say nothing whatsoever about your innocence or guilt.

Sorry; Noted.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 03:06 PM

Yes Legate didn't vote lottie and appologies I had rememebered reading and agreeing with the points in #168 but yes you are right i'd alread locked in my vote in post #167, Legate casts suspicion on Lottie as early as #124 and just because they voted Huin doesn't mean they didn't plant seeds to get Lottie some votes.
Okay, not only was this really fishily phrased, but I had to backcheck this and in fact that is straightaway fabricated. Because the only thing what I said about Lottie there was outlining the following possible scenario:
Also knowing Greenie being innocent, Lottie's vote which "sealed the deal" might have been a way of Lotwolf to save a fellow Huiwolf from the noose. But I think a scenario where Hui and Lottie are both Wolves who voted in order to save Hui would be almost to good to be true. Of course, it is perfectly possible. But Lottie doing this specifically in order to save Hui requires multiple premises to be true first.
So not, that is actually literally what you just claimed you operated with in one of your previous posts - but that's exactly why it does not make a sense as a theory to base anything on! It is only true if X is true!

If you wish I am happy to self vote as a way to prove (kind of) my innocence but I'd prefer not to.
What????? No, that is the last thing you should do if you are innocent! Self-vote would help only the Wolves, not anybody else!

EDIT: x-ed with several

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:09 PM

I have no idea what to think about Kath saying that suggesting her and Morsul are packmates is a "fair point". Really?
No. I said she was focussing on me and sally and ignoring Morsul, and she conceded that this was a fair point.

Side note: speaking of voting - let's not forget the dead can break a tie. While they don't know any better than us, we can at least trust them to have good intentions.

Ah, but they can't send a Ghost and vote on the same Day, can they?

If you are innocent, why would defending you be suspicious?
Because innocents (ordos) don't know anyone's roles, so defending someone too strongly may indicate you know they're innocent, which only Seer and wolves can know. Isn't this Werewolf 101?

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 03:16 PM

Ah, but they can't send a Ghost and vote on the same Day, can they?

Yes they can. The Ghost cannot vote, because during the haunting he doesn't truly belong in either thread, so to speak. The rest of the Dead carry on as they do.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 03:17 PM

If you wish I am happy to self vote as a way to prove (kind of) my innocence but I'd prefer not to.

That’s something I did in my first game as a werewolf. Didn’t help my suspicion of you.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:24 PM

Or I could be wrong, and Pitch or Morsul could be a wolf. That's equally possible, though I've seen nothing from Pitch I would find suspicious.
But not Boro, I take it? That's a relief... if we can believe you, which I'm not at all sure of.
Actually I think the time for vague hints has passed - if I've seen it, I'm sure the wolves have. So if you're hinting what I think you are, spill!

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:25 PM

Because innocents (ordos) don't know anyone's roles, so defending someone too strongly may indicate you know they're innocent, which only Seer and wolves can know. Isn't this Werewolf 101? This might have been a fair point if I'd actually defended Sally strongly, but what I said was that I'm suspicious of Morsul because he jumped on Sally so quickly and she seemed like an easy target.

Also it's past midnight, I have work fairly early tomorrow, and I should really vote and go to sleep, but I hate making big decisions. I find all of Morsul, Pitch and Sally suspicious to some degree, and Lottie suspected them all too. If I was the ghost, I'd use a certain dialogue between Gandalf and Frodo and comforting thoughts here. As much as I'd like them all to be wolves, I don't think that's the case.

Since her anything but reassuring appearance toDay, I think lynching Sally might be our best bet toDay. Both Form and Lottie's deaths could point to her, too. I don't think we're gonna get a much better case.

But. If I vote her and she's innocent, it's game over for us. To be entirely honest, I don't really want that kind of responsibility.

edit: xed with Pitch

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:28 PM

Seriously, Pitch and Sally? Seriously? At my bedtime???

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:30 PM

Seriously, Pitch and Sally? Seriously? At my bedtime???
Mine too, if that's any consolation.

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:32 PM

Sally?

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:36 PM

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:37 PM

Oh. My. God.

Okay I am not voting until I have processed data.

Sorry, a more coherent post coming up soon.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 03:38 PM

What in the name of all.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 03:39 PM

And here I was just trying to use reason to figure out some Wolfproof way to vote.

Kath

04-25-2021, 03:41 PM

This ridiculous by play between sally and Pitch is making me think there is more than one wolf in that little gang, because if sally is the Seer I'll eat my hat.

Form's death and Lottie's death point to her, GhostForm was happy with Morsul's vote and we know the Dead Thread have some additional information even if it isn't totally concrete.

So I'll put my money where my mouth is and hope no one is misled by what is looking like one orchestrated as heck charade between sally and Pitch.

++sally

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:42 PM

Kath if you really are an innocent who thinks Sally and Pitch are having a charade, why don't you vote Pitch who certainly isn't the seer??????

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:43 PM

What the fork, Kath?!

Kath

04-25-2021, 03:44 PM

Ah and cross posted with exactly that. :rolleyes:

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:45 PM

If Sally is the seer (more about that in a sec) and neither of Morsul and Kath is a wolf we're dead for certain.

Ergo better hope one of the three is a wolf at least.

edit: xed with Sally and Kath

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:46 PM

Two votes for me means we have to be very careful now, and I think a bit swift as well.

I think our only hope is if Kath is a wolf and we all vote her before I get to four? Am I wrong?

Obviously I won't be leaving my computer again. Sweet magical cupcakes.

x'd with Lommy, and exactly

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:50 PM

I mean, you're literally asking for it, so yes, fine, I'm the seer. Of all games to be busy at the wrong times.

Boro and Morsul are innocent. Sadly that's all I know of use right now.

Night one: Boro (because my prince!)
Night two: Morsul
Night three: Lottie (again, sorry!)

Like I said, the dead are fallible.
OK, I'm sorry to have drawn you out, but like I said... 'Vote for literally anybody else', you said. There's only one role who can make that call.

But that means we've got two known innocents, even if the wolves kill you toNight. And if they don't, hoping to discredit you... we've seen that play out, haven't we, Morsul?

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:50 PM

Mind you, from what I guess the dead have told us, Pitch must be a wolf? I've been wrong before, so I suppose it's possible.

We all have to agree either way. Yikes.

x'd with Pitch

Kath

04-25-2021, 03:50 PM

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 03:53 PM

Okay, so back to the drawing board.

We have a Ghost thing pointing at one of Morsul, Pitch and Sally.

Then we have Sally claiming to be the Seer and saying that Boro and Morsul is innocent.

So this would leave Pitch guilty by elimination, or else there is something completely messed up.

Or sally is simply lying (and in a really bizarre way given that Morsul just voted her). To be honest that would be the easiest solution for this mess.

EDIT: x-ed with a few

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:54 PM

Mind you, from what I guess the dead have told us, Pitch must be a wolf? I've been wrong before, so I suppose it's possible.

We all have to agree either way. Yikes.

x'd with Pitch
I thought the Dead were fallible?
I'd say vote myself rather than sally, but since I'm innocent, outcome would be the same.

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 03:54 PM

This ridiculous by play between sally and Pitch is making me think there is more than one wolf in that little gang, because if sally is the Seer I'll eat my hat

The easiest trick for a wolf hiding as seer naming innocents.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:55 PM

I thought the Dead were fallible?
I'd say vote myself rather than sally, but since I'm innocent, outcome would be the same.

They are fallible, which is why I haven't voted yet.

Gah, this is insanity. Bat excrement, as Lommy said the other day.

Kath

04-25-2021, 03:55 PM

Mind you, from what I guess the dead have told us, Pitch must be a wolf? I've been wrong before, so I suppose it's possible.

We all have to agree either way. Yikes.

x'd with Pitch
Ah so a few minutes ago the Dead are totally wrong and none of you, Morsul or Pitch could be a wolf, and you wouldn't vote for any of them. But now it's totally fine for Pitch to be a wolf and the Dead Thread do have information after all.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:56 PM

Ah so a few minutes ago the Dead are totally wrong and none of you, Morsul or Pitch could be a wolf, and you wouldn't vote for any of them. But now it's totally fine for Pitch to be a wolf and the Dead Thread do have information after all.

Proving that we're all fallible, I guess.

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 03:56 PM

Idk. I wouldn't put it past wolf!Sally to make a false seer reveal.

Then again, I have been waiting for the seer to reveal toDay. I mean, even if they're so unlucky all their dream subjects are dead, they could still give us one known innocent (themselves), and if the game continues, another known role toMorrow via the ghost. Surely that's what any sensible seer would do at this point when we have to lynch a wolf or die? If nothing else then at least to stop a fake reveal?

And no one has come forward except Sally. That makes me think she might be the real deal.

Anyway, if someone else than Sally is the seer, they should spill the beans now. Because if we trust Sally and she's not the seer, we're doomed. Knowing whether she's bluffing or not is a question between life and death for the village toDay.

(Also, so much for going to sleep early today...)

edit: xed with almost everyone

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:56 PM

Or I could be wrong, and Pitch or Morsul could be a wolf. That's equally possible, though I've seen nothing from Pitch I would find suspicious.
How could Morsul be a wolf if you dreamed him on N2?

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 03:57 PM

So I’m only able to read not able to share more my thoughts and reaction. But I’m going with what I said earlier, the Ghost has given a list of at least 1 wolf. This is orchestrated by wolves.

++sally

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty confident I’m not.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 03:57 PM

How could Morsul be a wolf if you dreamed him on N2?

Yeah, I regretted posting that as soon as I hit submit, realizing it muddied any possible tracking of my dreams. :mad:

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 03:58 PM

ah so a few minutes ago the dead are totally wrong and none of you, morsul or pitch could be a wolf, and you wouldn't vote for any of them. But now it's totally fine for pitch to be a wolf and the dead thread do have information after all.
<3

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 04:00 PM

Et tu, Boro?

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 04:01 PM

Et tu, Boro?

Yeah sorry my dear. I think those antics just sealed my opinion.

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 04:03 PM

All of this unfolding is very confusing, it's a bombshell, perhaps the timing is not coincidence making me more suspicious of Pitch and Sally.

Not sure where to vote want to see what Thinlómien says. Edit: He already spoke and i missed the post sorry!

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 04:08 PM

Okay, I will actually say what I was trying to reason for like an hour before this all mess started to happen. Basically it comes down to several main points. One is whether the Wolves came to this Day with a strong pull or whether they are just happy to bus one of them. That ties in with whether Morsul is innocent or not and if he is guilty, then whether sally is innocent or not. If Morsul is evil and sally is not, he started a bandwagon, the WWs hoping we follow, if we do, case closed. If they are both evil (and ergo now under the new events, sally is faking), he bussed her (or all the WWs did). If Morsul is innocent and sally is guilty, it's fairly straightforward. If Morsul is innocent and sally is innocent, ergo the Seer after her proclamation, then this is just a mess.

So let me get this right, it's kinda whether what we are seeing now is just sally-wolf trying to save herself, or whether the bandwagon we are seeing is the Wolf-drive, like betting all on one card. Is there a scenario we can somehow vote that would be Wolf-proof under these circumstances? I am trying to think.

Thinlómien

04-25-2021, 04:08 PM

Lommy, if you're an innocent and not a wolf, please go with your good sense here. Your own analysis of Lottie showed you a Pitch/sally/Morsul choice and GhostForm confirmed we were on the right lines. You were seconds off voting sally anyway, and only then did this little orchestration occur. You know what? You're probably right. I just quickly skimmed through her posts toDay and they don't really add up.

And if we're wrong, then frankly, I think we're the worst village ever and deserve to go by lynching our seer.

++Sally

Cupcake, if you really are the seer, I'm so so sorry and I will humble grovel after the game is over.

Now I will go to sleep if I'll be able to. :eek:

edit: xed with Soriman and Legate

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 04:09 PM

Good job, guys. We're doomed. *slow clap*

Soriman the Whide

04-25-2021, 04:14 PM

Yeah okay i'll 180 from my earlier position and jump on this bandwagon.
++Sally

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 04:16 PM

So let me get this right, it's kinda whether what we are seeing now is just sally-wolf trying to save herself, or whether the bandwagon we are seeing is the Wolf-drive, like betting all on one card. Is there a scenario we can somehow vote that would be Wolf-proof under these circumstances? I am trying to think.
Not anymore, after Lommy's vote. We can only hope sally's a wolf, or it's game over.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 04:16 PM

Well that would seal this either way, or?

Let me do a tally.

Morsul->Sally
Kath->Sally 2
Boro->Sally 3
Lommy->Sally 4

Left to vote:
Legate
Pitch
sally
Soriman
the Dead

So basically if sally is innocent and we royally screwed up, the Dead could correct it, and that's about it. In any case at least one innocent now voted for sally.

EDIT: x-ed after sally. Well okay, that settles it.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 04:16 PM

I realize this would be the perfect time for a song parody, but I'm afraid I haven't the time.

Dishonor on you! Dishonor on your cow!

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 04:21 PM

I don't even know who to vote for posterity....

Whether it's Kath or Pitch, well done to you and your packmates.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-25-2021, 04:21 PM

So, either now the Wolves will burst out laughing or they won't. Well I guess this makes no difference then anymore, so pro forma.

++sally

I would sorta like to stay up for the DL to see the result, but I also would like to go to sleep. But this has been such a mess my brain may take a while switching off.

EDIT: x-ed with sally

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 04:21 PM

When the Shirriffs came up to the lower one they were dumbfounded; but as soon as they saw how things were, most of them took off their feathers and joined in the revolt.

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 04:25 PM

How likely is it that none of the 5 votes for sally were cast by wolves?

Anyway, time for another squeaky clean but damning vote (or maybe not?):
++sally
If you were the real seer, I'm sorry (but I don't think so). If you're wolf, way to go out in style!

Boromir88

04-25-2021, 04:28 PM

I’m just glad I didn’t vote earlier. Although being away on this day was a pain. Perhaps the chaos sally put us through is would have been avoided.

*Glares at Pitch too*

Understand sally, I still hold you in the highest respect and I do not envy the headaches you will feel when you wake up. But you can’t deny you have tried to give us a bunch of headaches with your stunt.

satansaloser2005

04-25-2021, 04:29 PM

All right, I'm going to go pout until I die, and I'll be back for posthumous discussion.

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 04:29 PM

The tally, if it means anything to anyone toDay:

Morsul --> Sally
Kath Sally --> (2)
Boro Sally -->(3)
Lommy --> Sally (4)
Soriman --> Sally (5)
Legate --> Sally (6)
Pitch --> Sally (7)

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 04:33 PM

Oh hey y’all did the thing I said.

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 04:35 PM

7 votes for sally, even the Dead can't countermand that. So if it's not game over yet, did we actuallly get it right?

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 04:36 PM

Oh hey y’all did the thing I said.
Ironically. :D

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 04:55 PM

Who woulda thunk it that the quietest time of the Day would be the 20 minutes before DL?

Morsul the Dark

04-25-2021, 04:56 PM

Ironically. :D

I’d say it’s obvious we’re going on to tomorrow so, I’d love to see what Sorimon is up to. I’ll have to look into his posts today assuming of course I survive the night.

Formendacil

04-25-2021, 04:59 PM

Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.'

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-25-2021, 04:59 PM

I’d say it’s obvious we’re going on to tomorrow
It would seem so. Unfortunately I don't think toDay's votes are going to tell us much.

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 05:00 PM

The Day began with sorrow and ended with confusion and a hint of disappointment, depending on who you were rooting for. Upon the death of the Ranger all heck had broken loose. The outlaws had gathered in the center of their camp, surrounded by the empty tents of their deceased friends. Boro spoke to FormerForm and attempted to decryptify his frustratingly vague lines. Meanwhile, the rest of the camp worked on sniffing out a wolf.

“Sally’s a wolf,” Morsul said. “And I’ll put my money where my mouth is by voting for her.”

“Agreed, Sally is a wolf,” Kath replied.

“No, no, no, you have all got it wrong. I’m the seer!” Sally cried. “I think Pitch or Morsul could be a wolf!”

“If Sally is the seer I’ll eat my hat,” Kath replied.

“I’ll prove it to you! I dreamed Boro innocent on Night 1, Morsul innocent on Night 2, and Lottie a Ranger on Night 3!”

“Naming innocents is the easier trick in the book for a wolf!” Morsul countered.

“Also...what? How can Morsul be a wolf if you dreamed of him?” Pitch asked, getting suspicious.

“Uhh, no wait, I misspoke!” Sally said backing up slightly.

“Yeah, likely story…” Boro said. “I also vote Sally as a wolf.”

“I am thoroughly confused,” Soriman said, looking off into the deep dark waters of the Tarn Aeluin and wishing he hadn’t come on this blasted journey.

"This is insane and now I am suspicious of Sally," Lommy said.

"So we are in agreement for once?" Pitch asked.

The outlaws faced Sally who was quickly backing away until she could go no further.

"You are all my friends. How could you! Dishonour to you! Dishonor to your cow!"

But her words stopped no one. The outlaws had seen through her games. They stabbed and kicked and axed at her body, revealing claw and fur and cursed black blood.

Suddenly, everyone stopped as thunder rumbled overhead, and they were all sure that in the sounds they could hear ++Brinn - erm, no, that couldn’t have been right. They listened again, and this time, for real, heard a clear ++SALLY. With that sound, Sally breathed her last. They let out a nightly cheer and danced upon her corpse. Even FormerForm danced happily as he faded away with the evening sun.

In the distance the outlaws heard a faint *pop* as the two ModGoddesses popped open a bottle of champagne, knowing that the story would see another Day.

The Living
Boro
Kath
Legate
Lommy
Morsul
Pitch
Soriman

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)

Night 4 begins.
Wolves, kill away. Seer, dream away. Everyone else, sleep, if you aren't already.
If it was not clear before, dead wolves may not communicate with living wolves.

Narration was done by the lovely BeiGei.

Galadriel55

04-25-2021, 05:11 PM

AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY BORO!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Zm_xHiJGK1xEeqHkSm9c79_Lou1zt8Z4MIaPgFBwJB5KPrWomQ etpzSvByCe_0hHN8rgE1fa_btyb2gRhreDwygN434plrQ

DISCLAIMER: this picture is a reference to Boro playing WW and not to his role in the game, do not overinterpret.

Also, if any of you would like to share thoughts about how the Ghost haunting went toDay and if you think the Ghost rules should be modified before the next haunting, please PM me.

And another Also. Please make sure you have space in your PM inbox for communication. That applies to all of you, including Ordos and including Dead people.

Cheers to all. Good Night and Good Luck!

Galadriel55

04-26-2021, 05:00 PM

She slept uneasily, constantly tossing and turning. Her dreams were hazy and filled with noise and shadows. The few dim figures she could make out were not very clear and could have been one of multiple people. In the distance, there was a rustling, scratching noise that morphed into sniffing. Sniffing? No! Suddenly, she was wide awake, her heart beating out of her chest.

“Well look who we finally found!” a rough voice rasped.

An ugly werewolf with piercing red eyes and blood caked fur stood over her bed. It growled, “You killed our sister!”

A second one jumped onto the foot of her bed. “We don’t like that very much. Good thing you look tasty or this would take longer than it should.”

But ++Kath had no intention of going down without a fight. She jumped up with a dagger in hand and stabbed the nearest wolf in the arm. It jumped back and howled.

“You might kill me toNight, but I’m going to make you suffer too!” Kath yelled fearlessly, “For Galadriel and BG!”

She swung the dagger at the second wolf, nicking its ear. It ducked under the bed and hissed.

“For Greenie and Form!” the first wolf leaped at her and she dove onto the bed. She slashed wildly.

“And Hui and Lottie!” the smaller wolf jumped onto the bed. It grabbed her feet and dragged her onto the ground.

“You’re going to regret ever coming into this camp!” Kath yelled, slicing off the wolf’s finger.

Soon her yells were silenced. The two wolves overpowered her, ripping flesh from bone. They had finally put an end to the outlaw’s Seer.

----****----

But not all was lost. For in the early morning light and form appeared in the mist of Tarn Aeluin. It glided through sunbeams and over the dew tipped leaves of lush green trees. It spoke to them in voices they did not quite understand. A cryptic whisper from the Dead. The Ghost took the appearance of Gorlim once again, but this time it spoke with the voice of Huinesoron.

The Living
Boro
Legate
Lommy
Morsul
Pitch
Soriman
**Hui - Gorlim/Ghost

The Dead
Gorlim (NPC/Ghost)
Galadriel55 (Night 1)
BlindGuardian (Night 1)
Greenie (Day 1 - Ordo)
Formendacil (Night 2 - Ordo)
**Hui (Day 2 - Ordo)
Loslote (Night 3 - Ranger)
Sally (Day 3 - Wolf)
Kath (Night 4 - Seer)

Day 4 begins.

As a reminder, Ghost rules are staying the same. Good Morning, and Good Luck!

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:00 PM

Slowly it came, and softly spake:
'Gorlim I was, but now a wraith
Of will defeated, broken faith,
Traitor betrayed.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:01 PM

And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.

It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose.

He then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:02 PM

And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made.

It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose.

'Saruman, Saruman!' he cried in a loud commanding voice.

'The friendship of Saruman and the power of Orthanc cannot be lightly thrown aside, whatever grievances, real or fancied, may lie behind.

'Saruman, Saruman!' said Gandalf still laughing.

It must be remembered that the Stones were originally "innocent," serving no evil purpose.

Ghost

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:02 PM

Dammit. I was hoping my little seer style post would get me killed. I don’t have any Hail Mary plays today.

Ok. The fact I’m alive probably means Sorimon Is innocent like. I was 80% he’s a wolf now I’m like 30%... maybe looking at vote overlaps from day one and two will help.

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:03 PM

There came a day
When once more Gorlim crept that way,
Down the deserted weedy lane
At dusk of autumn sad with ran
And cold wind whining.

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

At a gap in the circle a great dark wolf-shape could be seen halted, gazing at them.

It then became pitch-dark—not what you call
pitch-dark, but really pitch: so black that you really could see nothing.

Pippin sat miserably by the door in the pitch dark; but he kept on turning round, fearing that some unknown thing would crawl up out of the well.

Men shall pitch my tents upon the field, and here I will await the welcome of the Lord of the City.

At a gap in the circle a great dark wolf-shape could be seen halted, gazing at them.

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

Ghost

Boromir88

04-26-2021, 05:03 PM

*Sigh* I was hoping the wolves would come for me, but I think it was fairly obvious after her reaction to sally's fake reveal that Kath was the Seer. You did well and what you had to. May you relax and find joy among the dead.

I do not have to be a seer to know that Pitch is a wolf and I do trust Morsul. Many jumped on his quick vote for sally, but frankly that quite possibly was a move that saved us and revealed Pitch to be false as well. That was an engineered fake seer reveal with sally if I have ever seen one.

Yesterday Form brought us new hope with a vital piece of information and hopefully Huey will be able to do the same today. Welcome Huey, what news from the grave?

Edit: A bunch of cross posting.

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:04 PM

Ooooh GhostHuin is with us today. Hmm HewnHuin?

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:06 PM

*Sigh* I was hoping the wolves would come for me, but I think it was fairly obvious after her reaction to sally's fake reveal that Kath was the Seer. You did well and what you had to. May you relax and find joy among the dead.

Sounds like we had similar plans. I’ll look at Pitch but I do trust you as well... hopefully that’s the right choice

Galadriel55

04-26-2021, 05:08 PM

Ooooh GhostHuin is with us today. Hmm HewnHuin?

HauntingHuin? ;)

Boromir88

04-26-2021, 05:10 PM

Ok so the first message is pretty clear. Soriman is innocent, that is something the Dead have learned as a "vision from Iluvatar".

We won't have confirmation on who Kath's dreams were until tomorrow, if the dead are able to send another ghost. And we must get through to tomorrow. The surest way I know to still fight on to tomorrow is to lynch Pitch. Which means in my mind the last wolf is either Lommy or Legate.

Working on the others...

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:14 PM

`Here,' said Elrond, turning to Gandalf, `is Boromir, a man from the South.

It was, unfortunately, very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink)

Ghost

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:15 PM

HauntingHuin? ;)

HuinDaHouse

Boromir88

04-26-2021, 05:16 PM

Huey's message in 409 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731452&postcount=409) seems to be reading the dead believe Pitch is guilty.

This is not "known" for certain (it's not from "Iluvatar") but it's from "Gorlim." And "we know not for certain" but their belief is Pitch is a wolf.

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:17 PM

`Here,' said Elrond, turning to Gandalf, `is Boromir, a man from the South.

' "Your information was correct," I said.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-26-2021, 05:23 PM

It was close on midnight, and they had been drifting for some while.

The song ended. ‘And now to bed! And now to bed!’ sang Pippin in a high voice.

At the very latest I shall come back for the farewell party.

Ghost

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:27 PM

Pitch’s day 1 vote is a throwaway, Day two vote clinched Hui’s death.

Then the interaction with Sally. And then Judge Dedd suspecting them. Do I dare make the same play again?

Boromir88

04-26-2021, 05:32 PM

Good night Huey! Thank you for the information. It has already been helpful to me. Rest in peace and forgive me for Day 2, I was blind and did not see. But there's also a certain liberation with being free from the toils of the living. It is always my curse to remain here until the end.

Boromir88

04-26-2021, 05:47 PM

Pitch’s day 1 vote is a throwaway, Day two vote clinched Hui’s death.

Then the interaction with Sally. And then Judge Dedd suspecting them. Do I dare make the same play again?

I was honestly thinking about doing that if we did get another ghost and whatever information they had.

That's not my style. If you want to go for it. I will back it and stop any sort counter bandwagon Pitch + the 1 packmate might want to try if they're feeling risky. I have a feeling though, that they tried a risky play yesterday to end the game right then and Pitch just may sacrifice today to leave it to the final day.

I have no way to know for sure you're innocent, unless we get word on Kath's dreams at a later time (and same goes for you having no way to know for sure I'm innocent). It was a risky vote yesterday for sure, but wolves aren't the only ones who take risks and as you replied to Pitch yesterday, if sally was innocent the wolves would have piled on your vote earlier than trying to engineer that fake seer reveal and throw suspicion your way.

I still feel pretty confident that with news of Soriman's innocence from Iluvatar that the final wolf is either Lommy or Legate. I've been quite gun-ho on Legate as can be seen, but I have to rethink because Pitch has seemed to try to poke me to go after him. Everyone knew how suspicious I was of Legate on Day 2, and I specifically recall Pitch trying to nudge in that direction:

This just made me laugh out loud so hard, and I'm still laughing. Bad thing is, I can totally see it, and honestly, right now I'd probably feel more confident voting any of them than I'd feel about voting anybody else (possibly excepting Kath). Order of preference being Legate > Hui > Boro.

And Lommy seemed to also do a bit of poking.. #214 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731057&postcount=214)

Morsul the Dark

04-26-2021, 05:48 PM

++Pitch

Because why not tempt fate.

Pitchwife

04-26-2021, 11:46 PM

And here I was hoping Morsul was the Seer and had dreamed me. *sigh*

So the dead are fallible after all. Not only fallible but plain wrong. Hui, you've had your revenge for my hand in your death, I don't begrudge you that. But the dead are wrong.

Have to be off to work now. Do what you must, but I'm innocent.

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 01:43 AM

This was no assault upon the Dark Lord by the men of Gondor, risen like avenging ghosts from the graves of valour long passed away.

He is watching. He sees much and hears much.

Ghost

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:10 AM

I must say that regardless of Kath's death, it is very reassuring to see Hui here with more concrete info. And Hui, I really like that you are trying to confirm and be clear about things - please stick with that. If Soriman is innocent (I assume this is deduced based on the Dead info revelations), that helps a lot, as in these numbers it's a big part of the equation. And the Pitch thing is also presumably deduced in a similar manner, but it is not as definite.

Which however once again makes me unhappy about Morsul jumping to vote immediately, and without even having others appear. Though given the circumstances (and especially sally's guilt), I find it less likely that you'd be a Wolf. YesterDay it would have been a bold move, but it would have to be a very well-thought conspiracy to bus sally first and now use the same system toDay, on top of that using something the Ghost said. But that still does not mean it cannot be wrong.

So, I absolutely want to hear something from everybody, also because now that is the info that will be crucial in the future Days (if we get there). Especially as the numbers go down.

I'll try to quickly read through Kath, even though given that she had not revealed, I expect she likely didn't dream much of any Wolves. Presume to be back in a bit.

EDIT: x-ed with The Ghost

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:12 AM

Ha, and I see the Ghost is back! Hui, was this just saying "I am here", or is the other part with the Dark Lord referring to something?

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:14 AM

I now see that it is probably answering to Pitch about the revenge.

Hui, since you are here, anything else you may want to say that you lot have uncovered?

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 02:34 AM

He heard and saw no more.

Ghost

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 03:56 AM

A pity, Hui.

But anyways, here's a look at Kath if there's anything useful that could point to her dreams. The game has gotten to the stage that reading anything means horrible walls of text (and that saying Kath did not even post that much compared to some others).

Her lists do not seem to show anything very conclusive. Especially on Day 1 I really can't read anything that would indicate her first dream, but maybe she also did not feel like posting anything that could be easily spotted by the Wolves yet, since one dream is very little. I only noticed that in her list she says this:

Loslote - will have to see more.
Using the word "see" could mean she was about to dream Lottie. (Even though I do not know why she would announce it in advance. Unless it was some clever way to sorta say that and she dreamed her already, but just did not have in-game data that allowed her to say it without being obvious.)

At the same time, the way she was about sally already on Day 2 means she might have dreamed her, too. This is quite a strong statement:
My current suspicions definitely start with sallybecause of the Night kill and I'm pretty sure that's where my vote is going toDay.
And she voted her on Day 2 already.

But in the same post, she also talks about Lottie:
Lottie's been mentioned a lot toDay. I'm getting more frustrated ordo than forcing-a-focus wolf and I think she explained her vote clearly enough, so she wouldn't be on my concerns list at the moment.
In any case I'd hazard a guess she dreamed of at least one of sally or Lottie then, which means one dream that we can't get anything out of anymore. I am kind of overall wondering if maybe if more of Kath's dreams were for somebody who subsequently died, because that would also explain why she did not come out, or did not leave any strong visible hints, because she simply did not have much to say.

I did not really find anything clear on Day 3. She is not in any notable way decisive on anybody besides sally.
With Boro's behaviour yesterDay, I read it as his oft-used strategy of: "Look at me, look at me! No don't look at them, I'M the Gifted one! No really - pay attention to meeee!" Ok yes maybe I'm oversimplifying but I read post #191 and just had to smile, and it also made me feel that he's innocent. The wolves would want to draw out Gifteds, not distract from them, so I'm feeling ok about Boro at the moment.

That may mean either literally just what she says, or it may be that she dreamed him and found him innocent. But it is very generic. It is however the only thing, at least as far as I can see, that indicates something clearer on Day 3. I would not base much on that, but something to consider at least until we can hear from the Ghosts some confirmations about Kath's dreams (which would hopefully come toMorrow).

Then Kath did the huge analysis of me, Lommy and Pitch. It's a horrible novel, which I assume she would not have done that had she dreamed of any of us. In any case, she ends up basically open-ended on everyone, as in, she forms some opinions and forms a model of a pack, but if she had actually dreamed anybody's role, I would expect a stronger statement. For reference, this is the last paragraph:
Hmmm - I don't know. I think I'm being drawn into seeing a sally/Lommy/Pitch pack. sally I think is a wolf regardless of the other two, and Lommy/Pitch seemed to coincide a fair bit when I was reading through. I think that I started off with a feeling that Lommy was suspicious though (perhaps because I think sally is a wolf, and Lommy seems to be quite diligently trying to avoid making a decision there) so that may have coloured my opinions. With that said, Pitch has a voting record that is both squeaky clean and damning at the same time, and Lommy brought Hui in as a third candidate on Day 2. But then Legate really had the strongest effect on the Hui lynch there and did cross post with Lommy.

I don't know. But sally/Lommy/Pitch is where I'm at currently.
Obviously had she dreamed Lommy or Pitch and they were innocent, she wouldn't have written them into sally's pack, and had she dreamed them and they were Wolves, she would have likely said something clearer about them. Similarly, had she dreamed me and found me innocent, I would think she would have said something clearer, too, besides leaving me out of the final pack list. It is theoretically possible, but then I would have expected some extra bit of supportive info somewhere else.

So all in all I am rather convinced that she dreamed sally and/or Lottie at some point. Otherwise, just by way of negation, I would say she also did not dream Lommy or Pitch or myself. And then everything is possible.

Well that was not particularly productive (even though negative information is also information). But something. I am going to see if I have time (and brain capacity) to look into something else before I leave to work.

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 05:38 AM

Because why not tempt fate.
My, my, you're hasty folk! Why not? Because what I said yesterDay about wolves piling on an early vote still applies, and unless you don't have anything to lose from a mislynch that should give you pause.

That's not my style. If you want to go for it. I will back it and stop any sort counter bandwagon Pitch + the 1 packmate might want to try if they're feeling risky.
Or make sure the scapegoat doesn't escape the noose?

"We know not for certain," said Elrond, so Kath hasn't dreamed me, it's as simple as that. They're guessing. Both Kath and Hui thought I was a wolf before they died, and Greenie suspected me D1. And whatever piece of info was revealed to them last Night was cherrypicked by sallywolf. How hard can it have been to confirm the bias?

If you think I co-engineered sally's reveal, think again. She was hinting pretty strong, and as an ordo I can't in good conscience ignore a Seer hint. The only way I would know she was lying - not believe, Boro, but know, a word you're playing much too fast-and-loose with! - would have been if I were
- either the real Seer
- or her packmate.
If she'd been for real, she might have saved the Day. I had to find out.

Back to work. See you later.

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 05:56 AM

I'm sorry, I'm just popping in to say that I'm somewhat infernally busy with work (huge deadline tomorrow, I hate it) and I can't play until after my work day, but I'm nonetheless not planning to work until 2am so expect me to activate in 3-6 hours maybe.

And yeah, good lynch, terrible Night kill, and I haven't read toDay's posting but I couldn't help spotting that Morsul has gone cowboy again. I don't think I'm ever going to forgive him (sorry :p) the game where he secured a wolf victory by taking the fate of the village in his own hands as an ordo and hastily voting another innocent in the beginning of the last Day, and I am rather annoyed by this move. I mean, Pitch does look pretty suspicious based on his antics yesterDay with Sally but I am not convinced about his guilt, nor am I convinced of Morsul's innocence either. (Side note: it just crossed my mind Morsul could be wolves with Sally and Pitch and ruthlessly bussing them both, and honestly? I think he would deserve to win.)

Anyway, my to do list to for toDay is
- look at Kath's posts
- look at Sally's posts
- do the overdue look at Boro and Legate because frankly I don't trust either of them even if neither of them has greatly been ringing my alarm bells so far

I don't think any of us can afford not looking at all options toDay, or at least any innocent cannot. *side eyes Morsul pointedly*

Now I'm back to work but I'll get to my massive ww to-do list and catching up with whatever you guys have said toDay in a couple of hours, hopefully sooner rather than later. If I was sensible, I would also vote early toDay (as I've said, the DL is 2am my time and it's the middle of the work week), but we'll see (I'm not always sensible when ww is concerned. :rolleyes::D)

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 06:04 AM

My, my, you're hasty folk! Why not? Because what I said yesterDay about wolves piling on an early vote still applies, and unless you don't have anything to lose from a mislynch that should give you pause.

Perhaps I’m certainly less certain today that yesterday. But at the end of the day if we lose it’s all just a game. You could vote me but I’m innocent so wouldn’t change anything if you are.

Xed Lommy there’s a reason I tried getting night killed A to save the seer and B I’m rubbish in end game voted my “Among Us” loss record speaks for itself

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 06:20 AM

So the dead are fallible after all. Not only fallible but plain wrong. Hui, you've had your revenge for my hand in your death, I don't begrudge you that. But the dead are wrong.

Yes the message about you being a suspicious wolf is from what the dead believe. That much is clear, thanks to Huey having a quote from "Gorlim." It is not one of the tidbit pieces of information that G55 ("Iluvatar") gives them.

And whatever piece of info was revealed to them last Night was cherrypicked by sallywolf. How hard can it have been to confirm the bias?

Yes it was cherry-picked by sally, but that information is still a small something to help us. It looks like the information she picked was revealing Soriman's innocent, as again Huey quoted "Iluvatar" to deliver that message.

So far the ghosts have been quite clear in what messages they want to send. Yesterday it was at least one of Morsul, sally, or Pitch was a wolf. They knew not whether there was more than one, only that there was at least one.

Today Huey has given us 2 messages.

1. Soriman is innocent (the piece of information from Iluvatar)
2. The dead ("Gorlim") think Pitch is a wolf, but they know not for certain.

I'm pretty sure they base this suspicion on the same thing I'm thinking...

If you think I co-engineered sally's reveal, think again. She was hinting pretty strong, and as an ordo I can't in good conscience ignore a Seer hint. The only way I would know she was lying - not believe, Boro, but know, a word you're playing much too fast-and-loose with! - would have been if I were
- either the real Seer
- or her packmate.
If she'd been for real, she might have saved the Day. I had to find out.

But was she hinting at faking a seer reveal or were you setting it up for her to try it? I've known sally a long time and you're right that can cloud one's judgement about them. But I do know if she was the seer, she would have come out from the start yesterday still ready to go down fighting for us and for herself. She wouldn't have began with a first post trying to guilt trip us into thinking we were calling her foolish for killing Form, and then done the whole charade trying to confuse us and make us not believe the information from the dead that came from something they learned from G55.

I have more time today, which I am thankful for, because now that it appears Huey has no more messages to be given to us today. It's not going to benefit just to spend all day on Pitch.

I think there is 1 wolf between Lommy or Legate. And hopefully if I make the right choices I can be free from this world to join my dead kin.

Edit: crossed with Lommy and Morsul.

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 07:26 AM

I don't know. Too late for my brain. I would really like to know what Boro is scheming, but hopefully knowing Huin's role will help.

This is another thing I don't get. So, this was the Day 2 vote, so you say you want to know something I'm scheming (which looks to me like you're trying to make something I do sound suspicious) but conclude "hopefully knowing Huey's role will help."

I'm not sure if this is breaking news to anyone, but I'm always up to something. Being up to something doesn't mean it's an evil something, and to call it "scheming" applies that it is evil. That's not really what bothers me though, because like I said it's not breaking news I try to lay out bait and traps. What bothers me is Lommy is framing myself negatively (I'm "scheming"), but instead of actually voting for me, she voted for Huey to "hopefully" find something out about me.

*ping*

I have no idea what to think about Kath saying that suggesting her and Morsul are packmates is a "fair point". Really?

But that's not what Kath said. #322 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731241&postcount=322)

Pitch said that Kath had not yet said something about Morsul. Her "fair point" is that she had not said anything yet about Morsul, and then proceeds to do a Morsul-analysis.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 07:37 AM

I'm at work, but trying to follow the thread...
"We know not for certain," said Elrond, so Kath hasn't dreamed me, it's as simple as that. They're guessing.
To be precise, I don't think Kath has had the chance to tell anybody anything. It is the conclusion of the Dead based at most partly on the info they had and their own conclusions. But if I am right, she did not dream you - or she might have just this Night, but that would not have been transmitted on before Hui left.

If you think I co-engineered sally's reveal, think again. She was hinting pretty strong, and as an ordo I can't in good conscience ignore a Seer hint. The only way I would know she was lying - not believe, Boro, but know, a word you're playing much too fast-and-loose with! - would have been if I were
- either the real Seer
- or her packmate.
If she'd been for real, she might have saved the Day. I had to find out.
This, however, is a completely fair point.

Xed Lommy there’s a reason I tried getting night killed A to save the seer and B I’m rubbish in end game voted my “Among Us” loss record speaks for itself
You tried getting night killed? When?

I'm pretty sure they base this suspicion on the same thing I'm thinking...

That is cryptic. If you are thinking something, is it not the time to say it? Especially at this point, the village should be upfront. And information has more value than ever.

I am at work and will be for several hours, I would like to at least look at Lommy, Pitch, Boro and Morsul. Given what I said about the walls of text, I will probably have to somehow downgrade this ambition. I started to look at Day 1 but did not have the chance to get very far. I will see how I manage.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 07:45 AM

That is cryptic. If you are thinking something, is it not the time to say it? Especially at this point, the village should be upfront. And information has more value than ever.

Uhh I did say it. Read the rest of the post. Where I respond to Pitch saying he didn't engineer it for sally to do a fake reveal.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 07:58 AM

Uhh I did say it. Read the rest of the post. Where I respond to Pitch saying he didn't engineer it for sally to do a fake reveal.

Okay, I see. I somehow read it that you were just responding to him and starting something new, especially since you were talking about something the Dead supposedly knew before but answering in present.

But okay. As I said I'm posting in-between work so my reading comprehension may suffer.

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 07:58 AM

You tried getting night killed? When?

Post 399 was supposed to be a “LOOK AT ME IM THE SEER” type of post.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 08:04 AM

Post 399 was supposed to be a “LOOK AT ME IM THE SEER” type of post.

Fair enough...

Galadriel55

04-27-2021, 08:22 AM

To be precise, I don't think Kath has had the chance to tell anybody anything. It is the conclusion of the Dead based at most partly on the info they had and their own conclusions. But if I am right, she did not dream you - or she might have just this Night, but that would not have been transmitted on before Hui left.

Confirmed. Kath joined the DT the moment Hui left it - ie they did not interact on the DT.

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 08:24 AM

Okay, I see. I somehow read it that you were just responding to him and starting something new, especially since you were talking about something the Dead supposedly knew before but answering in present.

But okay. As I said I'm posting in-between work so my reading comprehension may suffer.

Ahh I see how it could look like that with the "..." almost as if I was trailing off. So, anyway, yes I think Pitch is suspected by the dead because that looked like something wolves might have cooked up to draw out the seer. Even if Kath never had to technically reveal, unfortunately it made her come out more forcefully to secure sally's lynch.

I agree with your look there into Kath's dreams. It would appear Lottie and sally were 2 of them, as for the third and for her dream last night, I'm not sure we'll know for certain until tomorrow. But we'll have to get to tomorrow first.

And with the dead voting today, they'll know Kath's dreams. Something to consider about who they vote for today.

What are your thoughts on Lommy?

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 09:11 AM

What are your thoughts on Lommy?
I just started a reread of her, but since I'm doing it within rather random intervals, it is going slowly. My reread of Day 1 so far at least more or less confirms my generic impression: in terms of posts, nothing that would dramatically stand out by itself. If anything, I would look for some broader pattern; for that I have to finish my reread first. She could be something of a submarine, theoretically. But then again I'd expect a Wolf-Lommy to stand out more in some more ways. So not ruling out anything, but not the person who I'd consider the most suspicious of all. I want to finish reading the rest of everything.

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 10:17 AM

The only way I would know she was lying - not believe, Boro, but know, a word you're playing much too fast-and-loose with! - would have been if I were
- either the real Seer
- or her packmate.
If she'd been for real, she might have saved the Day. I had to find out.

I do play with the word "know" too often, another one of my flaws. So, in fairness here is what I "know" about for certain...

The messages the dead received from "Iluvatar" were:

1. At least 1 wolf was in the people who received votes in Day 1. We have found one wolf in that group...sally.

This message cannot be used to clear Morsul or Pitch of being wolves. At the same time, this message can not be used to suspect them either. For as far as we know that information was accurate and fulfilled "at least one wolf in this group"

2. I still don't know what was in Form's second message, it looked like it had something to do with Lottie. From the look of Huey's messages today, it looks like this second message doesn't contain information that will help us today. Can you confirm this Huey? Does the 2nd message Form try to give us (Post #276 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731179&postcount=276)) help us in narrowing down another wolf or innocent?

3. Soriman is a known innocent. This doesn't come from Kath's dreams, Huey wouldn't have information on who Kath has dreamed of. This appears to be the information, that was selected by sally, to give to the Dead thread. And Huey, confirmation if this is correct and "known" for certain?

4. There are 4 innocents remaining, 2 wolves. If I was assured my lynch wouldn't deliver victory for the wolves (That would make it 3-2, and then night kill 2-2. But how does the dead vote play into that scenario?)

5. I know I'm innocent...which I grant means nothing to any one who is an ordo like myself, but hopefully it scares the remaining wolves, because even an unconfirmed ordo-Boro can be a pain in their sides :)

To hopefully help get the trust of the fellow loyalists to my lords Barahir and Beren, as I said yesterday my steering days are over. And as I said today, it's not breaking news that I lay out plans, and bait, and traps. But today, those days are over for me too...with the loss of Lottie and Kath there's no point in trying to lay out cryptic messages that I intended to confuse the wolves with...which also does have a habit of catching some ordinary innocent along the way. Yes, I'm still saddened by my role in Huey's lynch. But for that, you see I take the blame for my part in it, but have others? Pitch? Lommy? Legate? You have blood on your hands as much as I do.

So here it all is, and may you all judge for yourself the truth of the matter.

Day 1 - I just like having fun and bantering with people. I hate voting on Day 1, but I love participating in them. I took something Pitch said about me as a seer hint:

I like Boro's reply to Lottie in #39. Actually make that 'I really like Boro so far, period'.

I went into Day 1 and the following night thinking Pitch was the seer, dreamed I was innocent, because I didn't think of any reason why 1 person would say something fairly definitive about me that early.

Day 2 - In my head still thinking Pitch is the seer and I was waiting for something more about Lottie. Under my assumption if Pitch was the seer, he might have followed up with trying to dream of Lottie, since he pointed out liking my Day 1 posts and questions.

So Day 2 I was planning on going full bore towards Lottie, if I got any hint that Pitch dreamed her role. That way I would hopefully be "protecting" who I believed to be the seer, but making it look like my Day 1 vote turned into a Night dream of a guilty Lottie.

But I saw no such hints that Pitch knew Lottie's role, so I scrapped that plan and went full out towards what looked like the most suspicious thing from Days 1 and 2. Legate's vote analysis. Unfortunately it just ended up pitting Huey and myself against each other and I did not see the error of my ways until after Huey's lynch.

Day 3 - Lottie was the ranger and now dead. Form delivers a message that at least one from Morsul, sally or Pitch is a wolf. So I'm questioning now..wait Boro, is Pitch the seer?

Pitch - because he cautioned me yesterday about who I was trusting, but he himself has seemed to be pretty trusting towards me

Pitch responds:

You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.

So that pretty much settled it for me that he wasn't the seer. And now Pitch, this is why I suspect you for your part in sally's fake reveal yesterday.

I am no wolf, and not a betrayer. Something I am reminding myself, still being troubled by Huey's lynch, even though I plan to bait wolves, that can lead to catching unintended innocents. It is my flaw (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731181&postcount=278)...just because in my head I thought Pitch was the seer, doesn't mean he intended to give me any such reason to believe it. Honestly, it's not quite adding up, because his response in 282 looks honest of "that wasn't for you at all. I was telling myself not to be too trusting of you and sally." Also, if Pitch was intending to look like the seer why would he press sally into trying to reveal it?

What say you Pitch? Now that you can see my thought process and judge for yourself the truth of it.

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 10:37 AM

I don't understand Hui's posting. Unless it is to say that the dead think Soriman is innocent and Pitch is guilty? That's what I'm getting. But given that Kath joined the dead when Hui departed, these cannot be seer dreams. Update: Hui seems to have confirmed they know about Soriman and are guessing about Pitch. I would like to know how they're sure they know, but I guess I'll just have to take a leap of faith.

I'm seeing a Morsul-Boro alliance out in the open, and I'm pretty sure that's how the two of them would play it if they were the remaining wolves: appear decisively in the start of the Day when the Europeans are sleeping, direct the discussion where they want (ie towards the most guilty looking other player, ie Pitch), and not suspect each other. I'm mildly alarmed.

Pitch doesn't look too good, but I can kind of sympathise with what he said about his reaction to Sally yesterDay, and my own was not dissimilar - an innocent with no better knowledge would naturally fliflop.

I'm still intending to look at Kath myself because I don't trust anyone else to do it without twisting things, but continuing off Legate's post #430, I agree Kath likely dreamed of Sally, and I would hesitate to say she dreamed of wolf-Pitch or wolf-Legate, or she'd have come out yesterDay.

This is another thing I don't get. So, this was the Day 2 vote, so you say you want to know something I'm scheming (which looks to me like you're trying to make something I do sound suspicious) but conclude "hopefully knowing Huey's role will help."

I'm not sure if this is breaking news to anyone, but I'm always up to something. Being up to something doesn't mean it's an evil something, and to call it "scheming" applies that it is evil. That's not really what bothers me though, because like I said it's not breaking news I try to lay out bait and traps. What bothers me is Lommy is framing myself negatively (I'm "scheming"), but instead of actually voting for me, she voted for Huey to "hopefully" find something out about me.If you're innocent, you're "having a plan", if you're guilty, you're "scheming"? :p Ok, joking aside, I did and do think you're making some weird maneuvers which I haven't been able to follow. Naturally, that makes me worry if they're good or evil. Here the "scheming" you were doing was whatever was the point of pursuing Legate for the first half of the Day, then dropping it and going for Huin instead. I don't think it was wrong of me to think of that as nefarious. In fact, I still think it entirely possible that you and Legate are the remaining wolves (in which case, toDay has not started very well). And yeah, I still don't know what the back-and-forth between you, Huin and Legate was about. It's hard to believe you'd all be innocent. I'm planning to look at that toDay. And as for why I voted for Huin and not you - I thought you might be "scheming" but it was not my main line of suspicion. In fact, if you look back, I thought the order of suspiciousness in your trio was Huin > Legate > you (which was likely stupid of me, given even the statistic likelihood of one of you two others being a wolf).

But that's not what Kath said. #322

Pitch said that Kath had not yet said something about Morsul. Her "fair point" is that she had not said anything yet about Morsul, and then proceeds to do a Morsul-analysis.No, I thought Kath was referring to the first part of the thing she quoted (Pitch pointing out that she and Morsul are in tandem), you think she was referring to the latter part of the thing she quoted (that she hasn't said anything about Morsul). Looking at Kath's post again, I can see what you mean, and I actually agree your interpretation is more likely than mine. It makes more sense, especially now in retrospect knowing that Kath and Morsul cannot be wolvish packmates.

Also, getting weird vibes from Boro's last post which is basically just answering questions about himself no one asked and lamenting his wrong decisions (such as voting for Hui) in a way that makes him sound like a self-conscious wolf.

Okay, now off to do some rereading.

PS. Not sure what to make of the fact that Legate seems oblivious to the fact that there are still 2 wolves among us. I don't think he's suspected anyone in his several posts toDay, which is a big red flag to me. Who do you think the wolves are?

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 11:29 AM

Anyone else having problems with the 'downs? I keep getting some "error 508: resource limit reached" when I open a new page (but not every time, it seems) :eek: This is not speeding up my analyses...

Galadriel55

04-27-2021, 11:31 AM

Anyone else having problems with the 'downs? I keep getting some "error 508: resource limit reached" when I open a new page (but not every time, it seems) :eek: This is not speeding up my analyses...

Yep! I got that too, a number of times. That, or the page just never loads. But now it seems to be better. ???

I hope the gods of the internet aren't gonna ruin this crucial Day!

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 11:51 AM

I don't understand Hui's posting. Unless it is to say that the dead think Soriman is innocent and Pitch is guilty? That's what I'm getting. But given that Kath joined the dead when Hui departed, these cannot be seer dreams. Update: Hui seems to have confirmed they know about Soriman and are guessing about Pitch. I would like to know how they're sure they know, but I guess I'll just have to take a leap of faith.

I'm not following the difficulty you (and sally, Pitch yesterday) appear to be having with the messages from the ghosts? They've been brilliantly clear in making sure the accurate information is given.

Yesterday Form had 2 messages from "Iluvatar" (G55 and BG) that were given to the Dead thread. G55 explained that since there was no wolf yet, this was a tidbit of information randomly selected by them:

In light of recent posts, yet another rules reminder. The Dead HAVE gotten Infodrops on both N2 and N3. This info was not concrete information as could befit a seer. It is not truly cryptic in the sense that you have to figure out a riddle, more just vague. Information that may limit your range of possibilities in certain scenarios but does not point to any one specific scenario being true.

Does that make sense? In 5 words: the Dead have vague facts.

One of those "vague facts" was there was at least one wolf among the list of people who received a vote on Day 1. This has been confirmed as true, with sally being lynched a wolf yesterday. It could be Morsul and Pitch are also wolves, because the "vague fact" was only "at least one of them is a wolf." So, this message is for as far as I know, fulfilled. It cannot be used to point guilt towards Morsul or Pitch, and it cannot clear Morsul of Pitch.

Now as G55 also stated, if a wolf joins the dead thread, that wolf would get a pick of the "vague fact" that the dead learn. This does not mean sally was allowed to choose false information, just that she had her pick of what the "vague fact" was..I know G55 loves being a cobbler, but she's not a liar, I can't imagine she would give sally false information to give to the dead and then have them provide it to the living; only that sally had her choice from a number of "vague facts" the dead could learn.

That fact apparently was something revealing Soriman's innocent. That much is clear in Huey's messages. Post #407 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731450&postcount=407). I mean, "Iluvatar" "Saruman" "innocent" "friendship"...I don't see how this is any way not clear.

His other message is conveying the beliefs of the dead. The first quote mentions "Gorlim" (the Ghost). The dead believe Pitch is a wolf, this is again a clear difference between what they learned about Soriman, and what they believe about Pitch.

I would suspect a cobbler would have a lot of fun with trying to confuse us about the messages, but seeing as there is no cobbler. My conclusion is it has to be wolves, because only they would benefit from trying to be confused by the Ghost's messages. So far that is something that just factually doesn't make sense, neither Form nor Huey have been ambiguous in their quoting.

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 12:09 PM

Aragorn smiled at him; then he turned to Boromir again.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 12:10 PM

But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!'

But now come tell me: what of the task that I set you? How is Saruman?

Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 12:11 PM

But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.

The wind wails,
The wolf howls.

It then became pitch-dark—not what you call pitch-dark, but really pitch: so black that you really could see nothing.

Ghost

Huinesoron

04-27-2021, 12:11 PM

Now the Valar were sitting in council before their gates, fearing the lengthening of the shadows, when the messengers came from Formenos.

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

Ghost

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 12:39 PM

To hopefully help get the trust of the fellow loyalists to my lords Barahir and Beren, as I said yesterday my steering days are over. And as I said today, it's not breaking news that I lay out plans, and bait, and traps. But today, those days are over for me too...with the loss of Lottie and Kath there's no point in trying to lay out cryptic messages that I intended to confuse the wolves with...which also does have a habit of catching some ordinary innocent along the way. Yes, I'm still saddened by my role in Huey's lynch. But for that, you see I take the blame for my part in it, but have others? Pitch? Lommy? Legate? You have blood on your hands as much as I do.
I don't think it needs stating that none of us five covered ourselves in glory that day. With all we know by now it's certain that at least one wolf was driving the Huiwagon hoping to save sally, but even if two of them were in it they had help from innocents who forgot that the proper way to solve a Gordian knot is not by the sword:o. Whether you were a driver or a helper I can't say. There has been talk about your comment to Legate during the voting ("See, I told you one vote could make a bandwagon"), and I could totally see that as a "Hey, that worked!" from wolf to wolf.

I went into Day 1 and the following night thinking Pitch was the seer, dreamed I was innocent, because I didn't think of any reason why 1 person would say something fairly definitive about me that early.
Gut feeling based on the general tone of your posts and the overall way of thinking in them, which I felt was fairly straightforward. Should have worded that more carefully.

But I saw no such hints that Pitch knew Lottie's role, so I scrapped that plan and went full out towards what looked like the most suspicious thing from Days 1 and 2. Legate's vote analysis. Unfortunately it just ended up pitting Huey and myself against each other and I did not see the error of my ways until after Huey's lynch.
Or you lost interest in lynching Lottie when I backed off her (I need to check the chronology), went wolf-on-wolf against Legate and when Hui engaged you about it you took the opportunity to go after him instead.

Day 3 - Lottie was the ranger and now dead. Form delivers a message that at least one from Morsul, sally or Pitch is a wolf. So I'm questioning now..wait Boro, is Pitch the seer?

So that pretty much settled it for me that he wasn't the seer. And now Pitch, this is why I suspect you for your part in sally's fake reveal yesterday.
Let me go through this one last time:
sally #316: "Vote for almost literally anyone else."
sally #318: "Wouldn't vote Boro, Morsul, Pitch." 3 names: N1, N2, N3.
You wouldn't think she was hinting, fine. A you say, you know her a lot better than I do. But do you at least see why I thought she was? It didn't help that I didn't suspect you much and was wavering about Morsul, and I obviously know my own role.

And incidentally, since you and sally were very trusting of each other on D2, and I know you know each other well, I'm afraid I let that colour my perception of both of you. Hermeneutic vicious circle.

I am no wolf, and not a betrayer. Something I am reminding myself, still being troubled by Huey's lynch, even though I plan to bait wolves, that can lead to catching unintended innocents. It is my flaw (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731181&postcount=278)...just because in my head I thought Pitch was the seer, doesn't mean he intended to give me any such reason to believe it. Honestly, it's not quite adding up, because his response in 282 looks honest of "that wasn't for you at all. I was telling myself not to be too trusting of you and sally." Also, if Pitch was intending to look like the seer why would he press sally into trying to reveal it?

What say you Pitch? Now that you can see my thought process and judge for yourself the truth of it.
I'll judge the truth of it at the curtain call, when the true meaning of Ilúvatar's themes is revealed for all to see. For now, it sounds believable enough, so if you made it up, good job.
I don't know. I can't put it better than 'I want to trust you more than I dare to.'

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 12:48 PM

I have spent a lot of time in this game writing post summaries and I don't have the time now since I want to look at all of Kath, Sally, Boro, and Legate, so you'll just have to bear with my impressions:

Kath

On Day1, possibly to avoid wolvish attention, Kath didn't single anyone out as particularly wolvish or innocent. She voted for Morsul. Day2 she heavily suspected Sally based on Form's death and voted for her, and she also suspected all of the Hui-Legate-Boro trio to a degree, but unlikely dreamed of any of them (especially unlikely in the case of Huin ;)). Defended Lottie. Conclusions? Sally and Lottie were likely seer dreams.

Day3 then? Speculates a Sally/Lommy/Pitch pack, also suspects Legate. Makes it clear that "sally I think is a wolf regardless of the other two" but otherwise making no clear ranking of suspiciousness between others. Ergo likely didn't dream of anyone else (and well, I can tell you with 100% certainty that she didn't dream of me, or she wouldn't have wasted her time suspecting me). Later voices more suspicion of Pitch based on his communication with Sally. Also looks at Morsul but doesn't conclude anything concrete about his guilt/innocence, so safe to say she didn't dream of him either. Says she's tempted to think Soriman is a wolf and says almost nothing at all about Boro; if we trust the dead, she cannot have dreamed of guilty!Sori and I think she'd have mentioned if she had serious reasons to believe Boro was guilty or innocent. So I'm a little swamped about dream #3, my guess is that she actually only dreamed of Sally AFTER suspecting her on Day2 to confirm/prove it, and one of her earlier dreams was someone who died (basically Greenie or Form). I guess it's also possible she dreamed of a Wolfwife on N3, but I'd think she'd have come out in that case. Also that doesn't really add up with the "sally is a wolf regardless" comment.

Sally

Day1 was her infamous quiet Day, and she did not vote. On Day2 she says she would vote for Lottie (for aggression) or Lommy (gut instinct), has no idea about Hui, Sori and Legate, and would not vote Boro, Pitch, Morsul, or Kath. Defended Pitch quite vocally by her standards (give that she was quite quiet in this game), and voted for Lottie. I do think wolf!Sally could defend Pitch regardless of his role - to buddy up with an innocent, but she could just as well defend a fellow openly and trust to get away with it.

Day3 has again more material, and it's here stuff gets more interesting. She refused to buy into the "one of Sally / Morsul / Pitch is guilty" theory as long as she could. Instead she kept saying Morsul is likely misguided innocent and didn't say anything about Pitch. Said she "would vote" Kath, Legate, Lommy or Sori, and "wouldn't vote" Boro, Morsul or Pitch. She tried to make a case against me, and agreed with Boro's point against Legate. Didn't really specify why she put anyone else in any particular category, if I'm correct. Then later in the day she seems to have flipped - perhaps after it started to look like a majority of the village was willing to vote for her, or maybe after enough people explained the dead thread message to her - and she amended that maybe Morsul or Pitch could be a wolf after all. Later she tried to fake she was the seer and she'd dreamed of innocent Boro and Morsul, and try to get the village vote for Kath with her. Says Pitch is more likely a wolf than Morsul. Says "Et tu, Boro?" when Boro votes for her.

Comments: A lot to unpack here, especially with the votes against her combined. Let me just comment individually how likely packmates I consider everyone for Sally, in the order which they voted for her:

#1 Morsul: was the first one to vote for Sally, right at the beginning of the Day, and kept pressing at her lynch throughout the Day. Sally kept defending him 'til the end. Now this would have been an insanely bold move from wolf Morsul. Remember, we know now Sally was lynched, but there was no way the wolves would have known she was doomed from the beginning of the Day. A sacrifice like Morsul's would have been an unnecessary prolonging of the game from their pov. I mean I guess it's possible the wolves thought Sally was toast and decided to bus her from the beginning of the Day, but I'd think they'd have preferred to have tried to win the game yesterDay. Sally's insistence in Morsul's innocence could have been to make herself look better (I don't think knee jerk suspicion of Morsul would have helped her case), or I guess more sinister if she didn't want to make Morsul another lynch option when the pack had already decided to bus her, not him.

#2 Kath

#3 Boro - now his and mine (#4) were the decisive ones. (Had voting for Sally stopped at 3 votes and someone else got 3 too, the outcome would have been up to the dead thread. So number #3 made sally an almost certain lynch candidate and #4 sealed it.) Normally, I would say that this would be a credit to Boro, but given that nobody except Pitchwife and myself to a lesser degree seemed to be considering sally's reveal could be genuine, bussing her at this point would have been a clever move for Wolfomir88. (Also, Boro didn't even consider Sally's reveal could have been genuine. Somewhat typical Boro-singlemindedness, or was he so sure she wasn't genuine because he knew?) Sally's continued trust in Boro makes me raise my eyebrows, but then again, "Et tu, Boro?" would be pretty bold against a fellow wolf. But then again, Sally is bold. Idk. To be honest, my feelings towards Boro in this game can be summed up in two words: intense paranoia, ok and also the following three: second-guessing everything.

#4 me

#5 Soriman, whom I'm not going to analyse

#6 Legate - a late vote that does him little credit. He'd have voted for Sally at this point regardless of his role. She threw him in her suspicious category earlier during Day3 but didn't contribute very much to making an actual case against him - this is another piece of non-information, if you ask me. I think the wolves would likely not have turned against each other in the first half of the day since they could still have won by lynching an innocent - but then again, putting him in a "suspicious" category but only proceeding to make one (1) unoriginal point against him would hardly make Legate more likely to get lynched.

#7 Pitchwife - as has been pointed out almost ad nauseam toDay, he looks the worst in conjuction with Sally. She considered him innocent earlier, on Day3 considered him innocent without drawing extra attention to him (she didn't claim to have "seer dreamed" of him unlike about Morsul and Boro, but she kept him safely in her innocent category without really saying anything to draw attention to him either before or after her reveal, except for a somewhat belated "ok if one of me, Morsul and Pitch is a wolf, it has to be Pitch", which is understandable, because she had just claimed she dreamed of innocent Morsul.) I still think the Pitch-Sally interaction is a little fishy, but as I said before, I can also sympathise with Pitch. I mean if you're an ordo, can you really rightaway disregard a seer reveal, however unlikely the source? Perhaps Pitch looks foul but feels fair. However, this game has proven that both my reason and my gut-feeling can be equally wrong, so I'm hesitating to draw any conclusions.

Ok leaving Legate and Boro for the next post, and focusing on that weird dance with Huin on D2 because I don't have the time to go through all their verbiose posts, and D1 I think is likely not that telling and D3 is in my fresh memory... then I'm also gonna look at wolf-packs. My current options are Morsul-Boro (who'd have decided to bus Sally), Legate-Pitch (would look maybe the most likely in regards to Sally I guess), or Legate-Boro (downright insane but absolutely actually quite plausible and also sounds like we would be done for). Individually I think Morsul looks the most innocent, but I'm on the fence about the other three.

But now, Legate just came home and we're gonna make dinner, so a little break from ww first. Wish us luck that we won't stab each other with kitchen knives, it's absolutely insane to be in the same apartment on a Day like this. :eek::D (Don't play ww with your significant others, children, it might be detrimental to your relationship and/or mental health!)

Also I'm gonna cross-post with everyone because I've been writing this for almost two hours (jeez).

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 01:01 PM

Okay, I did a very scattered re-read at work but didn't have the time to post any conclusions. I would have actually liked to recheck a few things once I get home, in a better environment, but this for now. These are just very quick summaries of my current impressions.

Assuming Soriman is innocent (btw hoping he shows up).

Morsul has a fairly good voting record, probably the best by far. His posting often raises questions of its own, but he has the tendency to act unpredictably. There is still the possibility that he might be a Wolf based on the Ghost info from yesterDay, in that case a super lucky and brazen one. I would rather lean innocent because it would be just too many lucky coincidences for him. Sidenote, regarding yesterDay, a lot still depends on what did the Wolves do there and how coordinated it was, whether they went in with the idea to bus sally or not.

Lommy, as for voting record, was twice in the thick of the Huiwagon. Otherwise like I said she does not seem to post in any way wolfishly, but could be a submarine Wolf. YesterDay I would say her actions around the vote for sally speak to her favour, her willingness to consider sally's claim but also that she voted her (fairly early) - a Wolf would likely not have done that.

Pitch has the most suspicious voting record, basically voting every Day when it did not matter any more. His posts raise eyebrows every now and then, but he has so far managed to avoid getting under any drastic scrutiny. The matter with him and possible participation in the Seer reveal with sally yesterDay is also one thing that makes him look bad.

Boro has certainly been a "steersman" through and through, and one could basically interpret each of his actions as good or bad, including all the cryptic remarks and conspiracy theories. His voting has been rather on the safer side (first Day he voted for somebody who did not have the chance to get lynched, Day 2 he voted early too). Day 3 depends of course on what exactly has trespassed there. If he's a Wolf, then he threw sally under the bus, but not that it is impossible, of all people I can imagine him doing that. If that was the idea, now he is in much better standing because of that and may be just playing it that way, hoping to weather whatever storms are going to come.

Right now, I would be more inclined to think that at least one of Boro or Pitch is a Wolf, and I feel overall more confident about them than the other two; the others would be much more blind shot for me. It may however be quite imaginable that either of Pitch and Boro is and then his packmate is one of the two others. I tried at some point during my re-read to form some sort of combinatorics about who could be Wolves with whom, but I realised that was beyond my processing power, at least at work. Anyway I think it comes down to whether we lynch correctly toDay, then hopefully that will help things become clearer toMorrow, plus ideally with more Dead and possibly Seer info.

Need to make myself some dinner, but then I'll be back. Presumably shouldn't be too long.

EDIT: x-ed with several novels and with all Ghost's posts. Will be back to read them.

Soriman the Whide

04-27-2021, 01:16 PM

Yeah i'm here Legate, just not able to post much...
I think the dead have proved my innocence, reading through now.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 01:48 PM

Few quick thoughts on the Ghost's most recent words - I cannot really figure out much from that. It seems to me that perhaps (?) it refers to the way they came up with that Soriman is innocent, so it is some sort of elaboration on that. And maybe (the later post) also what/how they figured out their thoughts about Pitchwife. But I cannot really make much sense out of it. I sort of assume that it is not anything new that would shake the gist of what has been said before, but some elaboration that could be useful if we deciphered it, but this is as much as I can figure out from that.

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 01:56 PM

I'm not following the difficulty you (and sally, Pitch yesterday) appear to be having with the messages from the ghosts? They've been brilliantly clear in making sure the accurate information is given.I could be offended, but I'm deciding not to. Yes, I agree toDay's messages have been clear. YesterDay's, nope. And I am saying the dead are not infallible. I very much doubt G55 straightaway gave them Sori's alignment. Therefore, they must have concluded it from some more vague information they got. Does this mean that it is foolproof? NO. Does it mean that we should trust it for toDay? Certainly. Does it mean that we should trust it for the rest of the game, if it goes on? I think so. I mean frankly, we don't have the time to suspect someone who is 95% likely innocent. If Soriman is a wolf somehow and we lose because of that, I'm gonna blame the dead thread. So we can discount him for now. As I belive I said before, so I don't know why you dedicated a whole post to "arguing against me". Makes me think you want to keep the village talking about information we already have, ie Soriman's innocence, instead of looking for the wolves.

And Huin seems to be repeating this too, and also repeating the dead suspect Pitchwife but they are not certain. I only wonder what Soriman being "not hostile to elves" means, if it means anything. Does it mean that he's not hostile to Galadriel55 ie didn't eat her ie is innocent? Or does it mean he is not hostile to me or Morsul (since we're the ones with Sindarin usernames) and the dead think we're all innocent? Or even know something?

Pitch, I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, yesterDay you seem to both question Sally and believe her in #368 before proceeding to legate-180 on her - can you explain your flipflop?

Legate, so you don't think Boro and Pitch are packmates, but rather that one is a wolf with Morsul or me? Hmm I wonder why is that, because currently I think most likely packs are either Legate-Boro or Legate-Pitch... (Or Boro-Morsul, but if they are, I wouldn't honestly mind them winning because they'd have been doing an insanely good job.)

Now off to look at Day2, hoping it will either prove or disprove the Legate-Boro theory...

edit: xed with Legate

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 02:03 PM

I'm seeing a Morsul-Boro alliance out in the open, and I'm pretty sure that's how the two of them would play it if they were the remaining wolves: appear decisively in the start of the Day when the Europeans are sleeping, direct the discussion where they want (ie towards the most guilty looking other player, ie Pitch), and not suspect each other. I'm mildly alarmed.
That was the impression I got this morning. From Morsul this is not so surprising (allthough I remember the game you mentioned earlier, and so should he), but Boro was remarkably single-minded about wanting to lynch me ("I do not have to be a seer to know that Pitch is a wolf", "The surest way I know to still fight on to tomorrow is to lynch Pitch" - I mean, this is strong language).

He has since mellowed a fair bit, maybe because you and Legate weren't falling out of your chairs voting me. After his Shakespearean monologue I'm really at a loss what to think.

If one of Boro and Morsul is a misguided innocent and the other a wolf leading him along, my money would be on Ordul/Wolfomir (sorry Morsul, not meaning to slight you!) - although it bears remembering that 'misguided innocent' is just what sally called Morsul.

But actually, if neither of them is a wolf the remaining two must be Legate and Lommy, in which case why haven't they voted yet?

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:11 PM

Legate, so you don't think Boro and Pitch are packmates, but rather that one is a wolf with Morsul or me? Hmm I wonder why is that, because currently I think most likely packs are either Legate-Boro or Legate-Pitch... (Or Boro-Morsul, but if they are, I wouldn't honestly mind them winning because they'd have been doing an insanely good job.)
I find it more unlikely that Morsul and Pitch are Wolves together, for that matter. Morsul would have to be super confident to bus first sally and then Pitch and then hope to win on his own. And actually no, both Boro and Pitch may theoretically be together and running a very well-orchestrated show. But I just find it more probable that they are not simply given their recent interaction.

EDIT: x-ed with pitch

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 02:12 PM

That was the impression I got this morning. From Morsul this is not so surprising (allthough I remember the game you mentioned earlier, and so should he),

Just for clarification I do not remember that. I have vague memories of playing before. For what it’s worth I can’t retract but reading everything today something isn’t sitting right. I was less sure today than yesterday and should’ve held my vote. While I was 70-80% sure pitch was wolf that more like a coin flip now. Mostly because I can see how an innocent would follow Sally’s little breadcrumbs.

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 02:13 PM

Pitch, I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, yesterDay you seem to both question Sally and believe her in #368 before proceeding to legate-180 on her - can you explain your flipflop?
Questioned her because she deduced that I might be a wolf based on the message from the Dead, when earlier she didn't seem to believe that they were right (or that Boro had read them correctly).
Believed her because she hadn't claimed to have dreamed me, so she could still have been the Seer.
What made me sure she was a fraud was when she wavered about Morsul, whom she had claimed to have dreamed.

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 02:20 PM

Is it me or is there a lot of theory packs about Me, Pitch, and Boro and a couple that toss Legate or Lommy with someone else. But no one is talking about the possibility of Lommy/Legate everyone’s making decent point but that possibility seems to be missing. I dunno that’s weird to me. Maybe I missed it.

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:34 PM

I can imagine a pack of Boro/Morsul, Boro/Lommy, Pitch/Lommy or Pitch/Boro. Pitch/Boro is a little too aggressive a combination but theoretically possible - anyway, like I said, I think getting one Wolf should hopefully clarify things also on other fronts.

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 02:35 PM

Just for clarification I do not remember that. I have vague memories of playing before. For what it’s worth I can’t retract but reading everything today something isn’t sitting right. I was less sure today than yesterday and should’ve held my vote. While I was 70-80% sure pitch was wolf that more like a coin flip now. Mostly because I can see how an innocent would follow Sally’s little breadcrumbs.
Don't you even remember the game when both of us revealed as Seer and your packmates couldn't kill me without blowing your cover? Oh, and there were two Rangers too! (That's not the one I meant though, just fond memories.)

Is it me or is there a lot of theory packs about Me, Pitch, and Boro and a couple that toss Legate or Lommy with someone else. But no one is talking about the possibility of Lommy/Legate everyone’s making decent point but that possibility seems to be missing. I dunno that’s weird to me. Maybe I missed it.
No, it's not just you. Wouldn't that be convenient, for once not to have to hide their werewolfing from each other?:D

Mind you, that would mean both of them pushed the Huiwagon to save sally. That would be a pretty brazen concerted action from a pair of wolves. I need to go back and look at what happened there.

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 02:39 PM

Don't you even remember the game when both of us revealed as Seer and your packmates couldn't kill me without blowing your cover? Oh, and there were two Rangers too! (That's not the one I meant though, just fond memories.)

In the spirit of this game
No, Sam. I can't recall the taste of food, nor the sound of water, nor the touch of grass.
Morsul

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 02:40 PM

Double post. Yes both voted Hui and I noted Lommy telling me to not bandwagon myself then voted the same person as me(Hui Day1)

Legate of Amon Lanc

04-27-2021, 02:55 PM

Okay, hate to say this folks, but it is getting late. I would sort of prefer to vote, well, early, even though I also see why toDay is not the best Day. But if my brain is in the process of switching itself off (which I am afraid it may be), I am going to steadily lose the ability to trust myself to make rational decisions.

I would like to hear what Soriman has to say for sure, but then... I certainly do not like the idea of the responsibility of casting a vote early, but I guess somebody would have to do that. I better think.

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 02:56 PM

Compiled for easier reference:

But otherwise my top options would include Pitch and Boro with his strange analysis, and I think lynching Hui would also clarify several things, even though I started feeling better about him during the course of toDay. Of those who have votes I am not comfortable to cast my vote for Lottie and with lynching sally there are just so many "what ifs" - the whole Form question of frames or double-frames or whatever.

Legate's response does give me a slight bit of caution and glad I decided to step back. I do find his analysis still suspicious, but these are good points to my belaboring the point throughout the day:

[...]

Huey is shooting up red flags and it's not because he's voted or suspects me at all. It's this, which I definitely classify as "sinister."

So you're most suspicious of me and cast suspicion my way, and state that Pitch and Lommy are also less suspicious, but out of the 4 of us you called sally a wolf. If you truly think sally is a wolf...why not vote for sally? So are you saying Pitch and Lommy are suspicious if sally turns out to be a wolf?

Then in your post that you voted for me, again you throw up "wolfSally"

If you think lynching wolfSally would shed more light on things...why in the blazes did you vote for me? I get if I look suspicious, fare enough, but this is VERY RED FLAG. "Lynching wolfSally might shed some more light on things, but I'm just going to vote for someone else anyway."

Blaarg, this is why I couldn't sleep, I knew someone would pick a turn of phrase and try to make make me a Definite Wolf over it... since it was apparently not obvious, by "wolf!Sally" I meant that IF Sally is a wolf, lynching them would be best because it would provide information on Pitch and Lommy (as stated, it would look bad for them IF Sally is a wolf). But I have NOT read anything which makes Sally feel like a wolf to me, and so I think it's a coin toss: WolfSally or InnocentSally.

Since I'm pretty sure you are a wolf, I'd rather lynch you than gamble on Sally.

"Better", but not exonerating. I am still considering him suspicious enough to merit a vote otherwise.
Note: replying to me querying why we was considering voting Hui if he was 'looking better'

So toDay Huin/Legate/Boro is a thing? I can't quite put my finger on it, but the blaming others for tunnel vision while tunnel visioning themselves circle is certainly eye catching. Something about it seems fishy to me. Sorry, that's not very analytical I know but something's off there. I'm also tempted to give them all a pass for toDay - which I probably shouldn't - because all their long posts, especially Boro and Legate's, are giving me headache. They're getting pretty advanced, and I don't have the patience right now (it's 0.30 and the last workday of the week and I'm feeling it) to untangle it. But I'm saying once again there's something furry going on here.

Is it a turn of a phrase or a slip to protect yourself if I am lynched and revealed to everyone that I am innocent?

Because you have listed the people you are suspicious of (Myself, Lommy, Pitch, and sally) and only referred to sally as a wolf. Now if you are innocent and truly voting for me, being the most suspicious looking person to you, fair enough. But you didn't call me a wolf in your post when you voted for me. You said in your vote post for me that I was "most likely a wolf," while directly referring to sally as a wolf.

But I've said my bit on this, made my point now and won't continue hammering on about it.

++Huey

As I said, I would prefer the whole Legate/Hui/Boro kettle of fish for toMorrow because I'm not sure what to think about it. I feel considerably less certain of Legate and Boro's innocence than yesterDay - both of them have been a little shady toDay - but I don't think I have any actual arguments against them. Huin I still find suspicious, but Form's death makes him look a little better. If I had to pick one of them to lynch toDay I would probably prefer Huin over Legate, and Legate over Boro. But I would still like to unpack this with a fresher brain.

Like I said, Lottie and Morsul look better to me now. Not a huge fan of the idea of lynching either of them toDay.
[...]
Sally? I'm okay with that, but I'm not sure it's the smartest move. I feel like this whole Sally thing has been blown a little out of proportion while she's not here to defend herself, which is a little suspicious in itself.
[...]

But if I had to pick from the current vote candidates, I'd probably go for Sally. I have less misgivings about it than about lynching Boro or Lottie.

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS HUIN / BORO / LEGATE BOVINE EXCREMENT????

Now you're making me consider it toDay. I have a headache.

I really don't know which one of you is the wolf / wolves, but if you're all three innocent I'm gonna eat my mousepad.

Btw currently contemplating the idea of a Boro / Huin / Legate pack and laughing my head off. I can't say if they'd be brilliant or really terrible at their job. But I'm pretty sure it would play out almost exactly like this. They'd probably have planned their wolf-on-wolf drama beforehand at Night.

I got distracted for a bit but now I am back...

I am not sure what to think about Boro suddenly being so friendly, plus now I see Boro voted Hui and Hui voted Boro, as if to challenge me to vote for the other. Well, I am probably more inclined to vote Boro, also because of the conciliatory tone of his #176.

Need to make sense of things, slightly catching up stuff here. Will try to make sense of stuff soon, hopefully not crossposted with too many again.

This just made me laugh out loud so hard, and I'm still laughing. :D Bad thing is, I can totally see it, and honestly, right now I'd probably feel more confident voting any of them than I'd feel about voting anybody else (possibly excepting Kath). Order of preference being Legate > Hui > Boro.

Well, if you believe it when I say it, it wasn't conciliation. As I said I still find those your points suspicious, but your responses back gave me a bit of pause. Huey jumped ahead of you the way he hyper zoned in on me after I was focusing in on you.

I don't like the misrepresentation that I ignored his accusation, especially since it ignored my point that I wasn't interested in distractions: See this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730945&postcount=139)

I'm getting to the point that I would be tempted to lynch one of Hui / Boro / Legate just to shed light on the others' roles. I think it would be more informative than finding out Sally's role, just saying. Sally's been so quiet she's scarcely mentioned anyone. (Others have mentioned her, of course. But there's nothing to compare to if we could untie the whole Hui / Boro / Legate knot.)

(Side note: I'm also thinking I'm not thinking this through, and not sure if I should act in the heat of the moment. I'm not really sure about any of Hui / Boro / Legate. I mean they're all fishy but I feel like one should have something more concrete on Day2.)

It's kind of comforting to me that Sally was the first one to get the 2 votes, because if toDay's voting ends in a chaos and multiple ties, then we at lynch someone I don't consider particularly innocent, if I don't have enough grounds to suspect her either. (I would feel more worried about the situation if Lottie had got the 2 votes first.)

Well, what the hell. Someone's gotta do something.

++Huinesoron

Out of the trio of doom, it's him and Boro who have votes, and I suspect him more than Boro (yes despite suspecting him a little less after the Form kill). So if we start unraveling that knot, I suggest starting here.

Okay, I think I am simply lacking the attention span to do anything more than vote. I will just go with Hui. Let's hope that if he dies, it will help untangle several questions.

++Huinesoron

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

I feel we have to sever this Gordian knot somehow. I'd prefer lynching Legate, but if that's not going to happen

.SDJGHÖdslkghadlk-gjfälkadgjölakfjghkjadhg

Allright
++Hui

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 02:59 PM

The whole thing seems to have started with Boro and especially Legate's (#124) vote analyses. Legate suggests a Hui-Lottie duo, or a Pitch-Hui duo, and calls Boro's vote for Lottie "throwaway".

Huinesoron agreed with Legate about the Form kill.

Boro suspected Legate for focusing on Hui and me on his vote analysis while conveniently ignoring himself and Morsul.

Hui didn't think a wolf-Lottie would have thought innocent-Boro a seer.

Boro did a conspiracy theory post about Legate and Huin being packmates, saying "Huey's driving and getting the suspicions stirring against innocent people. Legate is narrowing in on Huey + 1 other, to softly suspect Huey and fall back on as a wolf-on-wolf vote, but trying to put the attention on the other person (Greenie Day 1 and now Lommy today)."

Right after, Hui attacked Boro, for misrepresenting both the information available to the dead thread, and misrepresenting Legate's vote analysis.

In his list post, Legate was suspicious of Huin, even though not particularly strongly. (Btw Legate, I remember you replied to me saying "you were supposed to be pro-Huinesoron!" after you voted for him that you were never pro-Huinesoron, and I can see that now. My apologies! Not sure it's a point in your favour given Huin was innocent, but at least it makes your voting more consistent than I thought it was.) He also says "I am becoming increasingly unclear, if not suspicious about what Boro is up to, because while yesterDay I overall leaned towards trusting what he was doing, toDay I am increasingly dubious about what his role in everything is. It may be influenced partly by his throwaway vote yesterDay and lastly the conspiracy theory post - I cannot tell whether that is supposed to be a mental exercise or whether he is subtly trying to cast suspicion around." and joins Huin in refuting Boro's interpretation of his (=Legate's) vote analysis. Apparently cross-posted with Huin and lauded him for thinking along similar lines.

Boro replied to Huin's defense of Legate with suspicion of Huin. However concludes with "I think Legate looks the worst out of the two (him and Huey). So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Legate would simply attach himself to an innocent Huey to keep a smaller list of suspects." Boro also later continued by elaborating on his suspicions of Legate's vote analysis.

Boro was worried about his own tunnel vision on Legate, and noting it had elicited replies only from Legate and Huin.

In his list, Huinesoron suspected Boro and was undecided about Legate.

Legate continued arguing with Boro whether his vote analysis makes sense or not.

Huin voted for Boro.

Legate mentioned both Boro and Pitch as his vote options.

Boro defended his suspicions of Legate to Huin.

Boro then said "Legate's response does give me a slight bit of caution and glad I decided to step back. I do find his analysis still suspicious, but these are good points to my belaboring the point throughout the day [quotes Legate]". In the same post, he focuses the attack on Huin.

Huin kept arguing with Boro after his bedtime.

Legate clarified his suspicion of Huin to Pitch that he felt better about Huin but he was overall still suspicious.

Boro questioned Huin's suspicion phrasings (sorry for a bad summary, the post is #182) and voted for Huin, casting the first vote.

Legate was unsure what to think of Boro backing of him, and felt like Boro and Hui's mutual votes were a call to action for him to pick a side. He said he was more likely to vote for Boro out of the two.

Boro replied to my yelling about their triangle drama "I don't think I've erred today. If I have then may death reveal my true heart."

Legate backtracked a little on saying he preferred to vote Boro over Hui, however I'm not sure why.

Boro defended his vote for Hui while stating to Legate he was still suspicious of him too.

Legate voted for Huinesoron, saying "Okay, I think I am simply lacking the attention span to do anything more than vote. I will just go with Hui. Let's hope that if he dies, it will help untangle several questions." His vote was the fourth, sealing Huin's fate, but he likely thought it was only the third, because he xed with yours truly.

Legate still defended himself against me exclaiming he was supposed to be pro-Huinesoron, saying he'd suspected him from Day1.

After Huinesoron had got 6 votes, Boro posted the infamous one-liner "See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?" to which Legate replied "What's this, some sort of flaunting, when it even was not a point I disagreed on?"

Legate also commented "Last moments are making me brutally doubt Boro and what all this was about." which is interesting, because didn't he doubt Boro the whole Day?

Boro's last post for the Day was: "No I mean how I'm very nervous that everyone after me voted for Huey, after everyone kept saying it wasn't a "likely possibility." So, in my opinion either Huey is a wolf and his 2 mates bussed him. Or I'm suddenly fearing that he is as he says, just an ordo, and all these Huey votes at the end (Lommy, Legate, Pitch, Lottie) that 3 of you are wolves." Which just rubs me the wrong way for multiple reasons, because obviously he was disregarding the possibility that even if Huin was innocent, wolves could have voted for someone else too (and lo! you know who did? Our known wolf Sally.) Furthermore he absolutely fails at taking any responsibility for his own vote and - yes I will say it - scheming.

Okay. This didn't clarify very much. I think it could be two innocents butting heads (statistically rather unlikely at this point), a wolf targeting an innocent (but who is the monster and who is the maaaaaan? /end Disney reference), or hell, even wolf-on-wolf.

Boro and Legate: would you care, once again, to clearly state why on earth didn't you follow through with your main suspicions (each other) but instead went for your secondary suspicion (Huin)?

I mean, if I had conspiracy corner with Lommy, I would say wolf-Boro and wolf-Legate decided to go all loud wolf-on-wolf on Day2, knowing their mate Sally would be under fire for the Form kill, hoping to give the village something else to talk to. Hence Boro's disappointed-sounding note that no one but Hui was paying attention. As it came time for voting, they both conveniently decided to got for innocent Hui who had gotten entangled in their argument as the third wheel.

UGH. I wish that had clarified something. I feel like I've been stuck in square one the whole Day. It's getting late again, and I'm still unsure who the heckle are the wolves.

Just saying I'm gonna x with everyone.

Pitchwife

04-27-2021, 03:13 PM

Looking at the above*, I find it noteworthy how Lommy keeps iterating that "something's wrong with Hui/Legate/Boro" in ever so many posts, hammering down the notion that one of them probably is a wolf while wavering and flipflopping about the details all the time, and also juggling some passing suspicion of sally in the other hand but ever reluctant to vote her.

On one hand she looks a lot like a befuddled Ordlómien, and at the time I could certainly sympathise with her predicament (one of my big mistakes this game, which I'm about to repeat, is hanging around to DL just because I can, whereas my thinking doesn't necessarily get clearer approaching it).

But on the other hand this would also befit a packmate of sally's who was frantically looking for a way to save her but also made sure to suspect her enough to exculpate herself if sally was lynched.

*=my summary. not Lommy's post with which I x-ed

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 03:17 PM

I don't think it needs stating that none of us five covered ourselves in glory that day. With all we know by now it's certain that at least one wolf was driving the Huiwagon hoping to save sally, but even if two of them were in it they had help from innocents who forgot that the proper way to solve a Gordian knot is not by the sword:o. Whether you were a driver or a helper I can't say. There has been talk about your comment to Legate during the voting ("See, I told you one vote could make a bandwagon"), and I could totally see that as a "Hey, that worked!" from wolf to wolf.

I could have not said it and saved myself the suspicion it caused. But we always don't think things through before hitting "send." I was in "look at me, pay attention to me mode" for most of Day 2. As Kath observed the following day:

With Boro's behaviour yesterDay, I read it as his oft-used strategy of: "Look at me, look at me! No don't look at them, I'M the Gifted one! No really - pay attention to meeee!" Ok yes maybe I'm oversimplifying but I read post #191 and just had to smile, and it also made me feel that he's innocent. The wolves would want to draw out Gifteds, not distract from them, so I'm feeling ok about Boro at the moment.

My response to Kath:

Hahaha and now I have coffee all over myself, because I cannot deny this. Do forgive me though, I never intend to be that way, but it always happens. I start getting in my own head that everything someone says is about me.

As I've said though, I'm done steering toDay and will vote for either Morsul, sally or Pitch.

Now personally I took this to mean she dreamed of me, saw I was innocent and was basically saying "calm the buggers down." This is something I don't know for sure, because I agree with Legate's assessment that it isn't definitive enough I look "ok at the moment."

Now everyone knows I'm a bold and insane wolf, consider this...knowing that I saw this and responded to Kath as I did yesterday. Do you think if I was a wolf I wouldn't be all over this in trying to make it look like Kath dreamed me an innocent and therefor be focusing on "proving" that today? But I can't be sure of this, so I haven't been focusing on trying to "prove" Kath dreamed me innocent and I think Legate's analysis of her dreams looked fair/made sense.

Or you lost interest in lynching Lottie when I backed off her (I need to check the chronology), went wolf-on-wolf against Legate and when Hui engaged you about it you took the opportunity to go after him instead.

Ask yourself if a bold and aggressive wolf-Boromir, would suddenly back off on a known innocent? If I was a wolf I would have known Lottie was innocent, and I would have kept going after her, not switched up to do a wolf-on-wolf exchange with Legate. Of course, I realize this defense doesn't prove anything, just stating what happened.

If you're innocent, you're "having a plan", if you're guilty, you're "scheming"? :p Ok, joking aside, I did and do think you're making some weird maneuvers which I haven't been able to follow. Naturally, that makes me worry if they're good or evil. Here the "scheming" you were doing was whatever was the point of pursuing Legate for the first half of the Day, then dropping it and going for Huin instead. I don't think it was wrong of me to think of that as nefarious. In fact, I still think it entirely possible that you and Legate are the remaining wolves (in which case, toDay has not started very well). And yeah, I still don't know what the back-and-forth between you, Huin and Legate was about. It's hard to believe you'd all be innocent. I'm planning to look at that toDay. And as for why I voted for Huin and not you - I thought you might be "scheming" but it was not my main line of suspicion. In fact, if you look back, I thought the order of suspiciousness in your trio was Huin > Legate > you (which was likely stupid of me, given even the statistic likelihood of one of you two others being a wolf).

It's not wrong to think my tricks are nefarious, I often can be. As I said, it's not the scheming that bothers me so much. It's the fact that you seem to be implying I'm up to no good with my behavior on Day 2, but decided instead to vote for Huey to "unravel the knot." So, what I'm saying is I'm not following, why did you think finding Huey's role would "unravel the knot" of what I was up to? Why wouldn't voting Legate or myself reveal the same thing?

I could be offended, but I'm deciding not to. Yes, I agree toDay's messages have been clear. YesterDay's, nope. And I am saying the dead are not infallible. I very much doubt G55 straightaway gave them Sori's alignment. Therefore, they must have concluded it from some more vague information they got. Does this mean that it is foolproof? NO. Does it mean that we should trust it for toDay? Certainly. Does it mean that we should trust it for the rest of the game, if it goes on? I think so. I mean frankly, we don't have the time to suspect someone who is 95% likely innocent. If Soriman is a wolf somehow and we lose because of that, I'm gonna blame the dead thread. So we can discount him for now. As I belive I said before, so I don't know why you dedicated a whole post to "arguing against me". Makes me think you want to keep the village talking about information we already have, ie Soriman's innocence, instead of looking for the wolves.

I do apologize, it's not my intention to cause offense. My thinking is yesterday and today, you, sally and Pitch have tried to raise up a whole bunch of confusion about the Ghost's info, and I have no idea why because the messages they have conveyed have not been ambiguous at all. To continue questioning that information today looks to me like someone trying to increase confusion about the dead's messages. Cobblers love confusion, and I know we don't have cobblers, so that's why it looks like wolvery.

You claim that my post is wanting to continue to talk about Huey's messages today. And I say look at my other posts, have I been completely focused on Huey's messages? I don't think so. I brought it up again because I saw your comment as an attempt to cause confusion about the info Huey has given us.

Edit: This novel crossed with a bunch of others. Oh this is going to be a mad deadline. I'm considering voting within the next hour.

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 03:21 PM

Wouldn't that be convenient, for once not to have to hide their werewolfing from each other?Honestly, that should happen sometime :D - can you believe we've never actually been wolves together? (I also haven't been wolves with Nogrod, or Greenie. What's the statistic likelihood for all of that? I think the universe has something against giving me chances to plot IRL.)

Yes both voted Hui and I noted Lommy telling me to not bandwagon myself then voted the same person as me(Hui Day1) What do you mean by me telling you not to bandwagon yourself? I don't remember saying anything like that.

Pffttt it's getting late and I should go to sleep.

I might quite literally have to leave village in your hands, guys. Give me a moment to debate with myself who to vote.

Pitch looks the worst in regards to Sally.

Boro seems pretty dodgy upon rereading Day2, like I daresay he looks (even) worse than Legate for his antics.

Legate might be the best compromise because I still think the likeliest packs are either Boro-Legate or Pitch-Legate. I mean statistically that's probably our best bet.

And I can't honestly judge Legate very well; I always suck at reading him, probably wilfully because (honesty hour?) I hate playing on a different side from him so I usually just go "well he doesn't look too suspicious so I'm just gonna assume he's innocent like me and ignore him" unless he does something blatantly wolfy. I'm however aware that at this point of the game the village can't afford such an attitude from me, so I'm wondering if I shouldn't just risk living with a very grumpy Legate toMorrow if he's innocent and play it safe and vote for him.

edit: xed with Pitch and Boro

Morsul the Dark

04-27-2021, 03:27 PM

What do you mean by me telling you not to bandwagon yourself? I don't remember saying anything like that.

As noted in post
50 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=730716&postcount=50)

Boromir88

04-27-2021, 03:32 PM

Boro and Legate: would you care, once again, to clearly state why on earth didn't you follow through with your main suspicions (each other) but instead went for your secondary suspicion (Huin)?

Post #195 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=731037&postcount=195) has my reasoning:

Well, if you believe it when I say it, it wasn't conciliation. As I said I still find those your points suspicious, but your responses back gave me a bit of pause. Huey jumped ahead of you the way he hyper zoned in on me after I was focusing in on you.

I don't like the misrepresentation that I ignored his accusation, especially since it ignored my point that I wasn't interested in distractions: See this post

I was responding to Legateto which I was pointing out I wasn't conceding that I thought Legate was guilty, but Huey jumped ahead in my mind, because I thought he was misrepresenting my reasons and said I "ignored" one of his accusations. Which I think is referring to this post:

Um... what information?! They're a pair of ordos! The only information they could have is 1) their own beliefs and 2) some arbitrary piece of data from the Mods, selected from a list we've never seen; it would be literally impossible for us to gain information on that from a single vote. The fact that apparently you looked at that and went 'hmm, I bet people are going to try and construct a scheme to utilise this valuable resource' is just... like, did you forget that you didn't manage to kill the Seer, Borowolf? :D

The smiley to me made it look like it wasn't that serious of a question/accusation, but when he returned to it as a way to find me suspicious and painted my answer as "I'm purposefully ignoring Huey's accusation" that's what set my red flags off.

Thinlómien

04-27-2021, 03:37 PM

As noted in post
50I still don't understand; I thought that post of yours was a reference to my suspicion of you?

It's not wrong to think my tricks are nefarious, I often can be. As I said, it's not the scheming that bothers me so much. It's the fact that you seem to be implying I'm up to no good with my behavior on Day 2, but decided instead to vote for Huey to "unravel the knot." So, what I'm saying is I'm not following, why did you think finding Huey's role would "unravel the knot" of what I was up to? Why wouldn't voting Legate or myself reveal the same thing?You're making this all about you, when in truth it was about all the three of you. As I said before, I was suspicious of all the three of you, Huin and Legate more than you. I thought voting one of you would shed light on the others' roles. Well, I can say it didn't. But I could hardly have voted for all the three of you on the same Day, so I went for Huin whom I found the most suspicious of you three and who also had two votes at that point, while you and Legate had none.

Anyway, like I said, it's late

++Legate

Errrr.... :Merisu: I'm very sorry if you're innocent, in the worst case the game will end and we can discuss it tomorrow over breakfast.

To the rest of you, choose well. I don't mind if you choose Pitch or Boro instead. It was a threeway coin-toss for me, really. The deadline will tell which way this goes. Just please don't lynch me, because that would be a really stupid thing to do and secure a wolf victory.

I guess if the wolves win after toDay, I'm not gonna complain because I can't claim I know who they are. Well done, to whom it may concern.

edit: xed with Boro and I guess that can be an honest reasoning if you're innocent, but it doesn't really convince me you're not in cahoots with Legate. Anyway, good night and Night if there will be one!